September 25, 2025 • 58 mins
When our close friend, Jessie Creel first appeared on Everyone Is..., she was battling what she thought was pneumonia. That persistent cough eventually led to a shocking diagnosis: lung cancer, despite Jessie never having smoked a day in her life.
In this deeply moving conversation, Jessie shares her journey from that initial realization—losing an ocean swim she should have won—to assembling a world-class medical team at City of Hope and Stanford. With remarkable clarity and even moments of humor, she explores how cancer treatment intertwines with mental health, family dynamics, and systemic healthcare challenges.
"Anyone who has lungs can get lung cancer," Jessie emphasizes, pushing back against the stigma that often accompanies the diagnosis. She reveals startling statistics—40% more women die of lung cancer than breast cancer—while questioning why mammograms are standard preventative care but lung CT scans aren't.
Join us for this conversation about advocacy, community support, and finding strength in vulnerability.
Also please donate to https://wegotthis.org/ an organization that helps individuals with cancer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessie Creel (00:00):
I have found it.
You know the patience in thequestion and the wheel of life
and the tensions between lightand dark and river and borders
and all of these like pairs ofopposites and being able to hold
things at the same time.
The duality of life, like allof these things have really like
come up and there's so much apart of like what I love about
(00:20):
storytelling that I really feellike there's been a merge
between my life's, calling mycareer and how to survive.
Jennifer Coronado (00:30):
Hi, welcome to Everyone Is.
I'm your host, jenniferCoronado.
The intent of this show is toengage with all kinds of people
and build the understanding thatanyone who has any kind of
success is successful becausethey're a creative thinker.
So, whether you're an artist ora cook or an award-winning
journalist, everyone hassomething to contribute to the
human conversation, becauseeveryone just is.
(00:53):
My name is Jennifer Coronadoand I'm here with my friend,
jesse Creel, who we interviewedin last season of our podcast
Everyone Is, and Jessie is areally awesome, dynamic producer
and for those who listened tothat episode, which I know there
are so many of you, during thatepisode Jessie had pneumonia
(01:14):
and she was coughing quite a bitand since then she's actually
discovered that she actually haslung cancer.
And, jessie, I wonder if youcould really talk about, like,
how did you suddenly go?
This is more than justpneumonia, this is more than
bronchitis.
Jessie Creel (01:35):
What were your realizations?
Oh well, this is going to soundarrogant, um, but I lost an
ocean swim that I shouldn't have.
Um, and I remember going whatLike that would have embarrassed
all of my coaches Like what washappening, and I was just like
I couldn't catch my breath.
I had done a week of thisamazing nine to 12 lifeguard
training.
(01:56):
That in the California coast isusually done for junior guards,
but in down here they decidedto offer it for adults and I was
like the Guinea pig and I got afew friends to do it.
Andrew was one of them.
Andrew won everything, by theway, and he, matt did it, also
my husband and they were justlike, did you get walloped by a
wave?
Like what happened?
(02:17):
And I was like I don't knowwhat happened, but like I got
home that day, it was the finalday and I go, I can't lay on my
right side.
How funny.
This was the end of August andthe first week of September I
texted my therapist and I said Ijust think I have stage four
(02:37):
lung cancer.
I can't explain to you why.
Should I go to a pulmonologistor should I take an Ativan?
Jennifer Coronado (02:46):
And what made you text your therapist versus
like your primary care physician, Like did you just want to
check that you were notoverthinking something?
Jessie Creel (02:56):
No, it's because I hadn't felt heard by my primary
care physician.
But it wasn't his fault, it wasa lack of knowledge about my
disease.
And the fact is that evenbefore I went for my
bronchoscopy, my lungs soundedfine.
So the only way to really seelung cancer is to do a CT scan.
(03:20):
I called my friend Kenny Lin,who works at UCI.
He's an MD-PhD scan.
I called my friend Kenny Lynn,who works at UCI.
He's an MD PhD.
But his path to success wasStanford undergrad, harvard MD,
mit, phd.
Oh, just little schools.
I said, hey, I need apulmonologist.
He said you should go see DrColey at Paloma Medical Group.
He's the best.
Dr Coley at Paloma MedicalGroup, he's the best.
(03:44):
He's just like.
He's who you want.
So I called and he was bookingout to the middle of February
and I was like, well, that's notgonna do.
So they said but we can offeryou an appointment with his
partner tomorrow and I said,great.
And the reason that I went from?
Oh shit, I had to have majormouth surgery and that's why I
(04:14):
delayed the pulmonologist,because I had such severe
regression that I was about tolose two lower teeth.
So they had to do a connectivetissue graft and I had already
punted it once because of thepneumonia and I was like I've
got to get this done because Iknew deep inside that it was a
box.
I had to check if there wasworse things down the pneumonia.
And I was like I've got to getthis done because I knew deep
inside that it was a box.
I had to check if there wasworse things down the road.
Because oral health is soindicative of overall health.
Can we talk about that really?
(04:34):
quickly Like yeah, why is yourmouth and your eyes not part of
your body, especially when youreyes are part of your brain,
right, like I don't know, Idon't know, I do not know that I
just found out that New York isrequiring insurance to cover
cold capping, which cold capping, which is something I can't do
because of the type of cancer Ihave, but it's helped a lot of
(04:56):
people save their hair, and Iwas like go New York, go, like
way to go.
And so, you know, incrementally, I'm hoping that well, it's not
.
It probably is not going tohappen in the next four years,
but I will live long enough, Ipromise, so that I can see all
of these changes that I wantthrough, um, because I'm, I'm so
close to it and I'm so I just,I just have such I don't want to
(05:21):
say clarity of vision, becausethat sounds completely arrogant,
although there is an arrogancethat you have to take on, I
think, with cancer.
But I have, you know, I'm beingtreated at the City of Hope
with a tandem team at Stanfordwho came up with the same
protocol without yet talking toeach other, which makes me feel
(05:43):
really good to call without yettalking to each other, which
makes me feel really good.
And the doctor who Carl's wifeis consulting with is the chief
oncologist at Stanford and sheis the doctor who is in One
Breath Becomes Air.
And he said well, I think thereason that your oxygen like the
(06:04):
amount you can blow out isbecause you have so many sutures
in your mouth.
And I said I don't think so.
I said I've been coughing outsutures.
I've been coughing, I said theamount of sutures I've been
coughing out and this isprobably such.
This is hopefully where I'm notgoing to lose your audience but
I was like it was like you know, a tally at like a bar you know
what I mean.
(06:24):
Like it was like something thatlike, oh my God, I could tell
how much I was suffering.
And I and I, like you know, Ikind of grew up in a home like a
jock who was like walk it off,swam, swim meets with ear
infections, you know, playedlike soccer games with hurt
knees, but it was something thatjust said no, he said I know
(06:49):
you have to get to physicaltherapy because my body was
aching and I was doing physicaltherapy and I said, yes, but he
goes, but come back tomorrowmorning for the six minute
walking test.
So I came back, did that?
So I came back, did that?
Like blew it out of the waterand so not a good way to tell if
you have lung cancer.
(07:09):
So so far, listening to lungsClear and a six-minute walking
test didn't do it.
Jennifer Coronado (07:18):
But you kept pushing because you knew there
was something wrong with yourbody.
Jessie Creel (07:23):
Which I've come to learn is interoception, slash
the patriarchy.
So I have a list of five thingsthat I want to read.
Not this is not I'm not goingto read all through this, but
five things that I want to readat the end of this podcast so
that people who are especiallyin healthcare deserts which is
an access problem, a geographyproblem, a whole slew of reasons
(07:46):
I want to help them learn someof the things they need, to
advocate for some of the lexiconand to follow their intuition.
So, luckily, this doctor, drRauser.
He said you know what, I'mordering you a CT scan.
You're complaining, you're inpain, your pulse is a little
(08:09):
high, and so I'm ordering you aCT scan.
So the next day, so, but thatwas, oh my God, I did the
walking test on election day, somy pulse was like way higher
than it should have been, but Ihad walked the pier in my little
beach town.
I had like no problems withthat kind of thing.
And so the week following that,wednesday, I get the CT scan
(08:30):
and Dr Rauser called me and saysI need you to come in.
And that's never a great callfrom a doctor.
Jennifer Coronado (08:36):
No, because they could tell you you're fine
over the phone.
Jessie Creel (08:40):
But now my husband was away.
He was at Stanford, ironicallyenough for a philanthropy
conference, because apparentlywe like spend a lot of time at
Stanford.
Now, even though ironicallywould have never, he would have
gone in there.
But I didn't pay enoughattention in school to get high
enough marks.
But I just had this brave faceand I went and sat with the
(09:02):
doctor by yourself and by myself, and he said I just want you to
know we have the most amazingcancer care here.
I was like, well, that's a wayto start.
And he said but you need abiopsy and I'm not the one to do
it, so Dr Coley's the one to doit.
And Dr Coley is like in thenext room and he'll be in here
(09:25):
in five minutes.
And Dr Coley, who's initiallywho I wanted to get Right.
And so he comes in and he'sthis very charismatic man who is
so finely dressed and likereally confident, and he's Sikh
(09:45):
and that's very much a part ofhim, and he wears a beautiful
turban and he comes in and justhis presence made me feel better
and he was like, well, let'slook at the scan together.
And I'm like I don't want tolook at the scan, like I'm so
scared.
He said there's no reason to bescared.
Um, let's look at it.
And so he said I am slottingyou for bronchoscopy surgery on
(10:05):
Wednesday.
And this was on a Fridayafternoon, matt's getting home
from the airport and meanwhileDr Rauser had called Matt who
was going through TSA, beinglike I just want you to know the
conversation I have with Jesse.
It was like cinematic, howcrazy this was.
He's like you hear TSA comingthrough and he's like cancer,
like what.
So we go and matt is prettygood at like I don't know.
(10:30):
He was just like the like, evenkeeled, like college athlete
and high school quarterback andhe's like he's really good at
evaluating things, whereas I'mlike, yeah, it's cancer, I know
it's cancer, like it's my body,it's cancer, I know it's cancer,
like it's my body, it's cancer.
And he's like we don't knowthat it can be other thing.
So the next day, saturdaymorning, dr Cooley calls me.
(10:52):
He says you know what I need toget you in on Monday.
Jennifer Coronado (10:55):
Tell me about that, when you're approaching a
biopsy like that, like what areyou feeling?
What like that?
Like what are you feeling?
What's the prep for that?
Like like yeah.
Jessie Creel (11:15):
So I just like I don't want to be an ageist at
all, but I am I am starting tonotice that I'm a fish out of
water.
So I'm waiting in thepulmonologist waiting room and I
am 30 years younger thaneverybody else.
Yeah, you know, I'm waiting inline at the um endoscopy and
colonoscopy place for thebronchoscopy and I am the only
person who doesn't have to haveassistance into any of the beds
(11:39):
or you know anything.
Yeah, um and um, I like there'sjust something I'm starting to
sense.
Okay, like, okay, like you,this is where I like arrogantly
put myself on the hero's journeyand I was like, okay, I
definitely had a call to leavethe cave when I was in
Albuquerque visiting my parentsthis summer and I passed a huge
(12:00):
blood clot through my lungs.
Like that was like a huge, hugething.
There was a time when I wascamping and I had to sit upright
to catch my breath and thenthere was that time when I
couldn't lay on my right sideand it turned out it's because
the tumor had collapsed my rightlung.
So those three things I hadcompletely ignored until my
(12:26):
pride got the best of me and I'mlike I should have done better
in that ocean swim.
Um, now, was that really it?
I don't know.
It was my mask, you know, andthat was like it was what I was
wearing, um and I.
So I, so I left the cave alone.
When Matt was going through TSAis when I really felt like I
(12:46):
left the cave and I started tomeet my mentors.
Um, immediately, dr Coley, as Isaid, you know, got me into the
bronchoscopy Tuesday.
He pushed, he was actually inBoston teaching a class and he
pushed for the path committee toreview it because the next week
was Thanksgiving and I wassupposed to go to Austin to
visit my very sick 92 and a halfyear old grandmother.
Jennifer Coronado (13:09):
So he pushed and he said he called Matt and
he said it's cancer, it'sadenoid carcinoma, I'm guessing,
it's primary cancer of the lungand I have gotten you in with
the clinical director at thecity of Hope, irvine, and I just
(13:33):
was like I knew it and Matt waslike you know that was the
(14:01):
shock, and that's when a personand you want to help them and
you want to take care ofeverything, but you're still a
person with agency and you wantto do the things you want to do
and you don't want to be toldall the time what to do, but
also sometimes you need help.
So it's that balance right.
Jessie Creel (14:18):
And I was very public.
I mean, I sent to my closestlike 30 contacts, the people I
love, the people who I don'twant to disappear from this
earth without having contactwith, of which you were one.
I sent the email about mycancer and I started to say
there's so much shame in thisgame.
I don't know if it's ourpuritanical heritage or why we
(14:41):
try to assign behavior becausepeople are like what?
You have lung cancer, you'venever smoked.
Like what the hell?
And I'm like.
Anyone who has lungs can getlung cancer.
And also, 40% more women die oflung cancer than they do of
breast cancer.
Why do we demand mammograms butnot CT scans?
Right, because CT scans costmore money um, and, and philip
(15:03):
morris has done a good jobburying those statistics um, so
there's, there's a whole lot ofjust gross, like machiavellian
shit that happens in washingtondc that we don't even know about
, the den of thieves.
I mean, we, we know about itmore now than ever, but, um, you
know, it was one of thosethings where I, my friend,
(15:25):
Jessica Yellen, who's thisamazing I guess they call them
creators now, but she was ajournalist and multi body
winning amazing journalist andshe called me and she said what
can I do for you?
And I said I don't know, I'mjust learning.
You know, I'm learning.
I had sent the results toMichelle up at Stanford.
And she goes oh my God, I'm sosorry, Um, but you're going to
(15:46):
fight and you're going to winand we're going to get you to
win.
And Carl was like, you know, hewas echoing what Michelle was
saying and he was like we'retalking about you a lot in his
house.
And, um, you know, it's just,you're going to fight and you're
going to win.
He goes you've got this andwe've got you.
So Jessica calls me and says youknow, I would love to introduce
(16:07):
you to Ann Wojcicki, who Ican't say the last name of, but
she had founded 23andMe and hersister, Susan, who is the CEO of
YouTube, passed away of thisexact cancer in August.
Not the exact cancer, thenon-small cell lung cancer.
She had a different mutationand that mutation wasn't found
(16:28):
in enough people to warrant theamount of investment in a
targeted therapy that it shouldhave.
And so Anne hooked me up withthis wonderful woman, Marsha
Horne, who's the head of ICANN,which is the International
Cancer Advocacy Network, and shewas like you have to talk to
her.
And this is happening at theexact same time that I'm meeting
(16:50):
with my oncologist for thefirst time at the City of Hope.
And so I get out of thatmeeting and he says I just have
a feeling, I know what this is,but we have to send this out for
genetic testing to see how to,if we can target therapy.
And so he goes, and thentomorrow you're going to do a
(17:10):
PET scan and the next day you'regoing to do a brain MRI.
And I was like, wow, I'm goingto be at the city of hope quite
a bit, Okay.
So I leave and Marsha calls meand she says I just talked to
Ann and I want you to knowthere's two names in the game
with this kind of cancer DrNishan at City of Hope and a
(17:32):
doctor at MD Anderson and I said, oh my God, I'm Dr Nishan's
patient.
I said I was just with him fortwo hours.
How did that happen?
I have no idea.
I said I was just with him fortwo hours.
How did that happen?
I have no idea.
I have absolutely no idea.
But it made me think, oh my God, how do we multiply him so that
the poor OBGYN in rural Idahoisn't doing a bronchoscopy on a
(17:54):
patient, you know, because ofhealthcare access, trying to
cover it all and realizing like,oh my God, like I got the like
LeBron James of this cancer.
So I was kind of like, wow, youknow, amazed.
And then the PET scan revealedthat I had some bone mets.
The brain MRI revealed that Ihad six spots in my brain,
(18:17):
because apparently the cancergoes to the most fertile place
first, which happened to be mybrain.
Jennifer Coronado (18:25):
Of course.
Jessie Creel (18:26):
And so I was like, yes, thank you, trying to see
the silver lining in everything.
But my whole goal was to getclearance to go to Austin and to
see my grandma.
So I get the clearance.
We're sitting with Dr Nishanand he's like so sweet.
But you know, like this is theguy who graduated top of his
medical class and like he's juston it and he's also a blood
(18:50):
doctor and I have a blooddisorder.
So he's always seeing that inthe background and it's amazing.
And I have to give props to thewoman who runs my general, my
GP's office, because she handdelivered all my medical files
Chantelle Shore, coco is hernickname and she drove the files
(19:10):
over.
And Dr Nishan goes who are you?
I've never had files deliveredby hand before.
As soon as, like they learnedof the diagnosis, they like she
was on it, like she was justlike whatever you need, she
waited till I was out of thatappointment, um, but so Friday
he's like yeah, you can go toAustin and I go is, are you
telling me this because it's thelast time he goes?
(19:31):
No, I want you to go next yeartoo.
And I was like, hmm, okay, likeI'm gonna take that as a
positive sign and I'm going tolet that seed grow.
Jennifer Coronado (19:44):
And you should, because another thing
that people don't know aboutsevere illnesses is a big part
of it is the head game.
So if we're going to go back toCaitlin Clark and we're talking
about athletics, athletics isphysical, it is a head game and
it's the same thing withcombating an illness right.
So you have to feel like youhave the possibilities or it can
(20:10):
really take you down.
Jessie Creel (20:11):
Hope.
And guess what?
Guess what nurtures a good hopeis my Zoloft prescription and
having the Klonopin when I startto go down those really dark
alleys, or having, you know, thebreathing treatment when I
become short of breath, havingmy inhaler.
Having access to millennialdoctors by the way, dr Coley and
(20:35):
Dr Nishan both give me their,their um cell phone numbers and
I can call them anytime.
That is a new thing.
That is a wall coming downbetween the hierarchy of patient
and doctor and I call them bytheir first name.
You know what I mean.
It's just wonderful.
Jennifer Coronado (20:55):
And sometimes that's you, jessie, I have to
say, sometimes that's you, youjust bring that out of people.
Jessie Creel (21:01):
I broke them, but I will also say that they really
, both of them, believe wedeserve better in this country
healthcare-wise, and we do.
And so I was like raging, youknow, because it was right after
the election and I was going toTexas and I was like, but I was
going to Austin, so thank God,but I was just like raging about
it all and I said somethinglike I just can't believe how
(21:25):
hard it is to advocate foryourself as a woman in this
healthcare world.
And Dr Nishan looked at me andhe goes.
You know what the hardest hitgroup by that is the black women
with sickle cell who are notbelieved.
And he goes, and I've seen itfirsthand.
If I could have magic wand to,like you know, flip the switch,
(21:46):
I would.
And, my God, like our patients,what they're telling us is is
first in line, you know, andeverything else we do is
supporting of that narrative,and that goes back to the head
game thing that you were talkingabout.
Of that narrative, and thatgoes back to the head game thing
that you were talking about,which, again, like I know, you
(22:08):
know I'm facing mortality.
What I had to decide prettyearly on part of me leaving the
cave and meeting my mentors, ofwhich I have the most amazing
team and Wajidzki is like youknow.
Marsha Horn is the woman to talkto whenever you're feeling down
, because she knows what studiesare coming down the pike and
she knows what trials you canget into.
And she knows Dr Nishan and sheknows me and all of this
(22:29):
wonderful stuff.
But I was just like I'm meetingmy mentors and tomorrow I start
chemo, which I'm looking at asmy time in the underworld.
You know where the hero'sjourney goes, into the bottom.
The mentors send you in andthen you go and you start
learning what your magical poweris at the end and you go back
(22:49):
to the cave with it and you helpserve others.
That's the story of a thousandfaces.
And yes, for me to put myselfon that, I drew that for my
sisters when they found out.
I drew that for Matt.
I've drawn it in Pac-Man termsfor my kids.
But I think that puttingyourself in the bigger picture
(23:11):
of humanity for a fight likethis also helps alleviate some
of the pressure on it, becauseit doesn't feel so individual.
It doesn't feel so individual.
I really feel so individual.
I really draw the line athaving to console other people
over my diagnosis, because thattakes energy uh-huh, I totally
agree, and here's, here's thething, and you can answer this
or not.
Jennifer Coronado (23:32):
Yeah, but you mentioned your kids.
Yes, and you have three kidsbeautiful, lovely, different
humans, yes, and human beings intheir own right, as Judge John
Honchun would say on his podcastyes, yes, yes.
And they're pretty young.
So you talked about talkingabout this journey in Pac-Man
(23:54):
terms.
How did you tell your kids?
Jessie Creel (23:56):
So you know what's funny I told my kids through a
Zen story called the Farmer'sLuck.
It is the story of a man whoseson breaks his leg and this guy
comes over and says what badluck you have.
And he goes, we'll see.
And then the next thing happens, you know there's a sequence of
(24:19):
events and the son doesn't endup having to go off to war
because of all of this thathappened, which had been such
bad luck, and the dad wasunwilling to commit to feed
either side of that.
I think that, like you know,there's a patience in the
question, and so I read my kidsthat story and they had dealt
(24:40):
with me coughing for five months.
I read my kids that story andthey had dealt with me coughing
for five months and I said youknow what, guys, my cough is the
farmer's son's broken leg,because most people with this
cancer don't have a cough andthey don't have a sign, and so
they wait and they wait and theywait and it, you know, gets a
lot worse for them.
And I said so I want you to seethat this cough that's in your
(25:02):
memory from camping and from allthese trips, like it was a
blessing in disguise and it wasechoed by the City of Hope
doctors who said we actuallyhave something we can like.
You haven't heard me cough thatmuch, right?
That's amazing, like I neverwould have dreamt that pre to
Greece.
So I couldn't get through onesentence without coughing.
(25:23):
I'm probably going to startcoughing now.
But I had three completelydifferent reactions.
Um, my 10 year old said likeokay, like okay, I'm glad we
have this information.
And I said yeah.
And I said Clemmie, your bestfriend, cecilia, her dad
information.
And I said yeah.
And I said Clemmie, your bestfriend, cecilia, her dad, andrew
, the studio I'm in, survivedleukemia 20 years ago and got
(25:46):
pulled off a rock tour.
I really am going to prop comicit now, because if you want
that story, it's his book ThreePianos, which is amazing, and he
has this foundation called DearJack and they just raised $1.2
(26:07):
million this past year foradolescents and young adults
facing a cancer diagnosis.
And I said and he got throughit.
And I said and your friend, youhave another friend in your
class whose mom had cancer andshe got through it.
And Clemmie goes yeah, that'sright, and you're as tough as
they are.
So that was that was.
You know how she dealt with itand she's stoic and she's an
athlete and she's just like,just even keeled right my middle
(26:27):
said well, their cancers, theircancer, like how are their
cancers?
Similar to yours, myseven-year-old, who did two laps
around kindergarten and hasthoughts of why are we made of
stardust?
Like how do we know dinosaurslooked like that, like you know,
like she has these big thoughtsand then it's like doesn't want
(26:47):
to use the and and in sentencesat school, like.
So she asked me the hardestquestions.
And Josie, my five-year-old,named after that Josie Wales.
He said can I watch TV nowBecause he's little?
He's little, he's inkindergarten.
I had to have conversations attheir age but I had to not cheat
(27:08):
any of them out of the, out ofthe realness of what we're
experiencing as a family.
But I wasn't gonna like like Iwasn't gonna take their
childhood wonder, I wasn't gonnagive take their childhood
wonder, I wasn't going to givethem anxiety.
And I very quickly said youknow what?
I've never smoked, but even ifI smoked three packs a day, you
(27:31):
don't deserve cancer.
Said we're not going to startjudging people's behavior.
I said that didn't work in theAIDS epidemic and it's not going
to work for this.
And they were like what's AIDS?
And then we went down thatwhole thing but yeah, so like
that.
But then I thought like what issomething that we can do?
But what is AIDS is like?
Oh my God, what a miraculousquestion.
(27:51):
When I was growing up I neverthought that would be a question
.
Jennifer Coronado (27:54):
I thought it would steal all of us.
Yeah.
Jessie Creel (27:57):
Yeah, the shame game, and just this, like living
(28:18):
in, oh, so, like, what aquestion.
And that gave me like this.
But then I said, you know what,like you know, um, that's,
that's what we'll do.
And so that's what we did.
And then they were like, well,we got shot, so don't we get ice
cream now?
And I was like, oh, they'reback to normal, okay, that's
good.
I had alleviated stuff and thenI started the oral medicine and
(28:38):
I caught pneumonia yes, um,again, you know.
And I was able to get a CT scanand they never get to measure
to Griso at 14 days because theydon't think it's had a chance
to do its work yet.
And they already saw that mylike pleural effusion, my water
around, like everything, hadstarted shrinking.
And then I had a brain MRIFriday and my brain mets have
(29:02):
gone from peanut M&Ms to M&Msand it's like holy shit, like so
I'm going into chemo in areally good position.
Jennifer Coronado (29:11):
Can you talk to me about what Tigriso is?
You mentioned it.
It's obviously a treatment.
Jessie Creel (29:16):
Yeah, so I have the EGFR mutation.
Yeah, egfr, and it is basicallywhat caused this cancer.
It's as my oncologist says whenanybody comes up and says what
did you do, like, did you, youknow, consoling them.
Basically, what people areasking me to do is tell them
(29:38):
that they are going to liveforever, and that is not
something that anyone I meaneven the great faiths can't
promise that.
Jennifer Coronado (29:46):
Right.
Jessie Creel (29:46):
So to agree so is funny, because the thing that
caused my cancer is why we cantarget it.
It has been developed in thelab and it's been on the market
a few years and my oncologistsaid that in vivo which means in
the lab or something Carl orMichelle could correct me Um,
(30:09):
but it means basically, likethey, they sprinkle the Tegrizo
on the cancer cells and theywatch the cancer cells just melt
, um, and so I take it every dayat 7 am.
I cannot touch it.
The pharmacist said that I haveto wear gloves and I yell when
(30:29):
I take it.
I yell Tagriso, and the wholefamily knows that I've taken it
and they all picture the youknow, I mean it's a fun word and
you, you know and they allpicture um pac-man, and it's
become so normal, um, that like,and I'm very, very grateful
(30:50):
that it's you know, today andnot five years ago, yeah, or 10
years ago yeah and the stuffthat's coming down the pike.
Um, I know from my communitythat I've built quickly or I had
built and then I could call on,is really positive.
(31:10):
And Dr Coley and Dr Nishan putme in touch with two women who
are a few years ahead of me inthis and they've been so helpful
, a few years ahead of me inthis, and they've been so
helpful.
Um, I have my friend, naimaraza, who, um she you might know
(31:34):
the name, naima who used toproduce for caris wisher, yes,
yeah, so she made a podcast forme with her friend feday, um all
for me, which was 30 minutes ofFede giving she's a year out,
she's a year ahead of me adviceand she's a mom of three kids
and it was the most beautifulthing.
My husband and I are listeningto it.
I look over and he's sobbing.
He's like I'd never seen such abeautiful gift that they would
give themselves to you like thisto give you information, and I
(31:56):
was like we can share it andthat was amazing.
I've never met Sede but we havebeen so close since then and
she's like you know what, takeyour hypothalamus and make it an
animal and I said, okay, I'llmake it my favorite dog ever,
hooch, who was like the mayor ofany city but sometimes would
(32:17):
get so scared that he'd hide inthe corner of a room shaking.
And I said that's me.
So I'm going to talk to Hoochand she was giving me all these
tricks and I was like thiscommunity is so amazing and we
share so much, so, even thoughthe wisdom, I haven't gone back
to the cave, it's kind of likethe circle isn't such a neat
(32:40):
circle, you know, like we canshout from the underworld and
help others on either side.
And I think that, yeah, I thinkit's been.
It's really been a tremendousgrowing experience.
I don't like when people saythat my therapist by the way,
I've been seeing her for 12years I'm like a little
(33:00):
different.
And you called about canceradvice, what?
Yeah, exactly yeah.
So she said to me because I go,piper, like Dr Walsh is how
most people refer to her but I'mlike Piper, like it's just my
hero's journey, like what areyou talking?
Like it's just my hero'sjourney, like I'm going to meet
(33:26):
my mentors, I'm going to go.
And she goes oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It is fucked that you havecancer is fucked.
Like I don't want you to be inthis denial, like, and she was
like calling me out on wow, Iwas in serious denial but I was
like but it's a good place toaim for is to like put myself on
that like roundabout, like whatcan I do?
I feel like that's the serviceof mythology is, we can do it in
real time.
You know, like Joseph Campbellobviously looked at it backwards
(33:48):
but I have found it.
You know the patience in thequestion and the wheel of life
and the tensions between lightand dark and river and borders
and all of these like pairs ofopposites and being able to hold
things at the same time, theduality of life, like all of
these things have really likecome up and there's so much a
(34:10):
part of like what I love aboutstorytelling that I really feel
like there's been a mergebetween my life's calling my
career and how to survive.
Jennifer Coronado (34:19):
Yeah, Well, I mean, there's several things in
there that I hear like allthrough this right, and number
one is yeah, it is fucked thatyou have cancer.
I think it sucks and I'm goingto help you any way I can.
Jessie Creel (34:33):
Thank you and.
I know you are not just sayingthat you are the best.
Jennifer Coronado (34:37):
But it is your hero's journey, because
that's the mental place youchoose to launch yourself for
how to deal with this, andthat's okay too.
Yeah, so both can be true.
But also, what I hear too, isyou've spent a lot of time
building a community that,weirdly, has surrounded you in a
way.
(34:57):
That's very helpful for thisjourney that you're on.
It's insane.
Jessie Creel (35:03):
Yeah, I mean like the, you know the, just the,
when breath becomes air.
Um, his widow, um blurbedCarl's book projection.
So the whole reason I paidattention to Carl's book was
because Andy Ward, who's anamazing nonfiction editor at
Random House, who's the top ofthe line there, was on board for
(35:29):
Carl's book and I'm a producerenough where I love reading book
news manuscript form.
This one I had found when itjust came out and I saw that
(35:58):
Lucy who to say?
But unfortunately, like Paul,was stolen from us by this
cancer and Lucy had to finishthe book.
But it was a unbelievable featthat they got this out there.
And a Pulitzer Prize finalist.
I mean, it's just such abeautiful book and he's so
vulnerable.
But he doesn't feel sorry forhimself and I definitely am not
that good.
I definitely feel sorry formyself, especially when the sun
(36:19):
goes down.
I don't know why it might be mybenchmark of okay, another day
to fight.
You know, I get a little, I geta little sad and it's just,
it's unbelievable.
They see life and death everyday.
Some of my like biggest mentorsI got.
I may I cuss because one ofthem today, who I've never heard
(36:39):
cuss, who is like the finesthuman being, married, father of
three girls.
His wife is just amazing.
They're just rock stars.
His wife's on the board ofPlanned Parenthood up your way,
so we love them.
And he said today's yourreminder to fuck everyone and
fuck everything and just getbetter.
And I was like, wow, likethat's coming from someone I
(37:02):
revere and like this is kind ofthe message that I'm getting now
and so I'm looking at thispodcast as kind of my like
closing message before I go intothe fight, of my like closing
message before I go into thefight.
Yeah, and I appreciate yougiving me the time to do that.
(37:23):
I didn't realize the such closerelationship between cancer and
mental health and it's going togive us a new POV for our
scripted series.
Yeah, and I said to Carl likeyou know, how much did you leave
out of the book with cancerpatients?
And he's like probably as muchas what's in the book.
I said okay, well, that's a newcall for me.
(37:43):
I'm hearing it.
I'm hearing it loud and clear.
His wife is a MacArthur GeniusAward winner because of her work
in cancer, pediatric oncology,and the biggest gift of all that
she gave me is that she has nowso she does pediatric brain
cancer.
But because of our friendshipand this, she has now started
(38:04):
studying non-smell cell lungcancer in her lab, which is just
unbelievable because she's gota brain that I mean I'm
surprised it fits in her head.
To be honest with you, I meanshe is just brilliant and she's
creative as hell andcompassionate and she's an
amazing physician, and now she'sgoing to be able to dedicate
(38:24):
her huge lab to seeing theneuroscience of cancer, which is
what she's a pioneer in.
And what she has reallydiscovered is that cancer is
really a microscope of humanbiology.
And you could she was becamethe expert on long COVID because
of her knowledge of braincancer and addiction and all of
(38:46):
these things.
And so what, like I hope tocome from all of this too, is
that you know we can harnesstechnology to really start to
understand human biology and getin front of these things, um,
and get in front of these thingsin in um, in the sociological
way too.
Yeah, you know like say like,oh, my god, there's not a
(39:08):
hospital there for like ahundred miles.
Like, um, let's build one.
And you know, let's make surelet's pay somebody enough to
live there and serve them.
Or you know what I mean.
There's just so much solutionsLike people don't need a bigger
plane, they don't need a biggeryacht.
How rich is too rich is aquestion Naima is going to
(39:29):
handle on her new podcast.
But like I'm starting to sniffit pretty that there's a lot of
people who are too rich and so,like I, there's this clarity
that comes with cancer of likewell, if I think I'm going to
survive, my God, it's such agift to be here, like it's a
gift to survive.
How am I going to give back Now?
Andrew, in his wonderful bookprop comicking again, did not
(40:00):
have it so easy.
He took his last dose of chemowith a shot of jägermeister and
he talks about the darkexpectations put on you, or the
light expectations that cause adarkness put on you when you
survive an illness, like he did,um and so like that is helpful
too.
And when I was diagnosed Icalled him.
He came over and I cried in hisarms for an hour and he was
(40:22):
like I feel bad for the diseasethat meets your body.
He goes, I, like you know hejust said he goes, jesse, like
we've got you.
And then he introduced me thisis an amazing prop comedy to we
got this, where he bid on thisring for me that says we Got
this, it's lit.
So I joke to my Lakers, peoplethat don't be jealous.
(40:45):
But so this is an amazingorganization that offers
registries for cancer patients,so like things they might need,
and so I don't mean to likepromote it.
I have, very fortunately, beensurrounded by so much.
(41:05):
I live on a like we live on atiny, I mean a congested street,
but we're all so close and Ican't even I was dropped off so
much homemade broth yesterdaythat like I have to store it in
neighbor's fridges, like I aminundated with things.
So people are saying like howcan they like, what can they
send?
And I'm like, no, go go buysomebody a juicer in my name on
(41:28):
this registry.
Jennifer Coronado (41:29):
Hold that a little closer to the camera.
I want people to be able to seethat we got this.
Jessie Creel (41:32):
Yeah, I'm like go and do you know what, like in my
name or in somebody's name whohad cancer or another horrible
disease or had to face mortalityfrom addiction or whatever,
like go and just like give thatway, because we live in a 1400
square foot house and we, like Ireally can't take anything more
(41:55):
, Like I cannot take anythingmore on.
In fact, we have people comingtomorrow called the germicidal
maids and they are coming tolike I'm going a little control
freak and they're coming to likeQ-tip our vents.
You know, I just want to comeback from chemo tomorrow
afternoon or tomorrow evening,get in my bed and know that like
we're set up for success.
I mean, come on, Do you needthat?
(42:18):
Probably not, but it's mymental game.
Jennifer Coronado (42:20):
It's partially mental.
Going back to the sociology ofillness, the thing that I want
(42:43):
to say that I think is superimportant is we tend to like
punish people for being sick asa society, yeah, like we put a
scarlet letter on them.
Illness we need to not bankruptpeople through illness.
There are so many things thatwe can do as a society to just
help our fellow human beings.
One of my favorite writers isKurt Vonnegut, of course, and he
(43:06):
talked about and I can'tremember, I think it was in one
of his essays and it was aboutwhat if we divided humanity into
groups and you're allresponsible for A?
Everybody in A group has tohelp everybody in a group.
So if you see somebodystruggling in a group, that's
your responsibility and that'swhy you don't feel responsible
for everybody, but there'salways somebody caretaking for
(43:27):
somebody, right, yeah?
And I feel, I personally feelthat that is why we are here as
humans on this planet.
We are here to help and supportother people and engage with
other people, and if we getother stuff out of it.
Jessie Creel (43:43):
Orders are imaginary.
Yeah, great.
Jennifer Coronado (43:47):
But the feeling you get from being part
of a community and helping otherpeople through things is
something that could benefit somany people who I think get
disconnected right.
Jessie Creel (44:00):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I think that you know.
I think Kurt Vonnegut oh my God, did you see his documentary
Magical?
And that's a reminder that thiswas a deeply depressed man who
lived on the hedge of comedy.
You know what I mean.
He found that tension and Ifeel like anybody like I have.
(44:23):
I can have deep moments ofmelancholy, I can relate to that
and where he was like just sofunny, was like where you'd stop
and say like, if this isn'tnice, I don't know what is, you
know just these reminders, orthe fact that I this is going to
go on record I the no shame inour lice game.
We've had lice six times in thepast 12 months.
(44:45):
And I Matt was like, oh, I'mgoing to make a nice dinner.
You know it'll be like the lastdinner before you start this.
You know we start this fight.
We're going to sit as a family.
And he called me before thepodcast started and he goes uh,
I need the name of our lice lady.
I just got a call from school.
All three kids have knits intheir hair.
So, uh, we are going to bedoing that for dinner.
(45:08):
And it's like laugh, you know,like laugh, you make plans and
God laugh.
Jennifer Coronado (45:15):
Exactly Right .
Jessie Creel (45:15):
And you know, and so it was like I could
romanticize this night, or I canrealize I'm a mom of three who
you know, life happens, so, um,I I want to like I know that
we're going short on time, andso I want to like be able to
read the.
Jennifer Coronado (45:35):
I can thing for people.
Jessie Creel (45:36):
Yes, please do.
I hope that anyone facing adiagnosis like this can get
their body into the fight statein a way that keeps their
nervous system calm.
And I think the first phonecall should be to a therapist
and a psychiatrist, because wecannot do this alone.
(45:59):
And if I did not have my Zoloftprescription or my therapist,
piper, or my nurse practitioner,patty or Carl, a text away, I
would not be as strong, andeveryone deserves this strength.
I really, really believe it.
(46:20):
We are a very isolatedpopulation.
Loneliness is at the top.
I can say that, yeah, I thinkKurt Vonnegut's essay, I know
exactly what you're talkingabout.
I think religion operated inthat space for a long time but
created really tough boundariesbetween the groups and and
really that coming down has been, has been, a beautiful thing,
but nothing, not much, notenough, has replaced it, and so
(46:44):
I I couldn't agree more.
Yeah, and I really I think whatI've seen is like the cancer
community takes care of eachother.
Like I, you know, anonymously,like not anonymously, I someone
called me and said hey, I knowyou're going through shit right
now, but I have a friend who hasa cough who's at the hospital
and nobody will listen to her,and can you talk to her?
(47:04):
And I said I can talk to herand I'm going to get her a good
doctor.
She starts chemo tomorrow withme at the same place.
Jennifer Coronado (47:10):
Wow.
Jessie Creel (47:11):
This was the week before Christmas, so the like,
and I had never met her.
So the point is see yourself inothers.
You know what I mean.
Like, what cancer has taught meis it's so much bigger than
that.
This is a blip.
We're going to get through itand like we're going to help
each other.
Jennifer Coronado (47:28):
That's what we have to do.
Yeah, we have to do that.
Jessie Creel (47:30):
And so here's five tips.
I feel like Letterman, buthere's yeah, here's five tips.
So know your biomarker.
This is the five principles ofICAM, international Cancer
Advocacy Network, given to me byMarsha Horn for cancer patients
and specifically in getting, ifyou are in a healthcare desert,
(47:54):
get out of it, and these areways that you can get out of it.
So know your biomarker.
If you can't describe yourbiomarker, maybe your cancer
hasn't been analyzed fully.
But you need to know yourdriver mutation or biomarker and
memorize what that is.
Breast cancer patients it couldbe HER2 positive, non-small
(48:14):
cell lung cancer patients likeme.
Egfr mutated, with a particularmutation found in many never
smokers who've done everythingright and who are very
physically fit.
Thanks, marsha, for writingthat little compliment.
So you know pancreatic cancerare you crass?
Pronounce K-R-A-AS.
There's just so much wisdomthere.
(48:36):
So just remember biomarker andGoogle it Like we all have
Google, I hope, my God Okay.
Second opinions are key.
90% of cancer patients aretreated by community oncologists
, but not every communityoncology center has time for or
research infrastructure toconduct a clinical trial.
So call ICANN and get your nameon the list, because they will
(48:58):
get to conduct a clinical trial.
So call ICANN and get your nameon the list, because they will
get you into clinical trials andthey will get you approved
within three or four days whereinsurance would take four weeks.
This is an advocacy network andthey raise money to do this and
Dr Nishan knows them.
They're just.
They're just a really.
And they, you know, grantedmoney to Dr to Michelle's lab at
Stanford.
They're just a really.
And they, you know, grantedmoney to Michelle's lab at
(49:18):
Stanford.
They're just an incredibleorganization.
I didn't even know they existedbefore I had cancer.
Number three is clinical trialsand compassionate use.
Virtually every commonlydiagnosed cancer and many
cancers with ultra-rarebiomarker-driven cancer are the
focus of clinical trials in theUS and abroad.
The topic of what clinicaltrials are you most interested
in for me should be broached ateach appointment with your
(49:39):
oncologist where your diseasehas grown and your team urgently
needs to find a differenttreatment going forward.
This is a huge reminder thatyou are your own best advocate.
It's also a reminder that youdon't have to be married.
You don't have to have a spouseby your side, but, my God,
bring someone along, becausesometimes, when shit hits the
(49:59):
fan, you have like yourquestions fly out of your face.
You know what I mean.
You're just like what you like.
Watch them float away.
Then, number four communicationwith the oncology team.
Nothing is more important thanopen communication with your
oncologist and oncology nursingstaff at the medical center
where you are getting treatment.
Show gratitude to everyone eachtime you're with them your
(50:22):
oncologist, the team and theinfusion nurses.
Don't ever ask about lifeexpectancy.
Because of the robustness ofthe drug pipeline and because of
more and more options nowadaysfor cancer patients virtually
every cancer they really cannotmake an educated guess.
The goal is optimizing yoursurvival and your quality of
(50:43):
life.
Side effects Don't be a hero.
Report.
Medicine has come along so muchthat they want to help you.
There's not.
We're trying to recede the ideaof nobility of suffering.
They're going to load me uptomorrow for an hour and a half
(51:03):
with pre-drugs to help get methrough the chemo drugs and then
on Friday do it again.
They want this to be notblissful.
It's not going to be like aayahuasca retreat.
Jennifer Coronado (51:14):
Yeah, you're not getting a facial Right.
Jessie Creel (51:15):
I mean, it is not getting a facial, right, I mean,
it is so amazing in 2024.
Now I'm going to tell, I'mgoing to add a number six
because you know me and myopinion.
So the oncology nurse saiddon't get pregnant.
And I said, of course not, likethat's not a possibility for me
, but like that sounds reallyscary.
(51:36):
During chemo, what happens whena stage four metastatic patient
comes in pregnant?
And she says, well, inCalifornia we're okay, but in a
lot of the country the fetus nowdrives the decision.
And to me I'm thinking, oh,that seems like a really big
(51:57):
problem.
And so I hope that theseconversations now I am a big
believer, I'm a oh my God, Icouldn't be more pro choice
because I'm getting to makeevery decision informed consent,
(52:18):
super informed consent.
But like the idea that a womanwould have to face that is
despicable and it's just, itjust launches me into like so
much of of my again.
That's like combined, likeeverything seems to be weaving
itself together and making sense.
(52:38):
But here's a, here's anabsolute area where it hit me in
the face like this is somethingthat like for the first time.
It's like, yeah, if I don'twant to have a kid, I'm not
gonna have a kid.
I did in vitro, like I'm justnot gonna have a kid, um, but
yeah, it was.
Oh my God, like it does affecteveryone.
You know, like, if this isn'tan us versus them, this isn't me
(53:01):
giving a Planned Parenthood,being like like girls, I got
your back.
This is like a major violationof my human rights.
Um, and, and seeing itfirsthand, so bodily autonomy,
like it, it just it.
It shook me and I wanted tomake sure to use this platform
to be like, hey, everyone who'svoting for people who are
(53:22):
pro-life which is not a term Ilike to use, because being
pro-life and cancer is is beingon the side of the cancer
patient.
But, um, I, I want you to electpeople who let women decide
what's best for their body andlet their doctors decide.
(53:43):
You know, don't let these fatcats in Washington decide.
Fat cats, what am I?
Jennifer Coronado (53:48):
like, mickey Rooney, but you know what I mean
, mr Smith.
Jessie Creel (53:52):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Oh my God, jimmy Stewart.
I won't give you my JimmyStewart impression, but Mary
Mary, you did that.
There it is I know I can't, Ican't, I didn't, sorry, um, but
anyway, I just wanted to liketell you guys how much I loved
you.
I love your podcast.
I don't miss it.
(54:12):
I'm so grateful these creativesouls are out there.
Don't miss it.
I'm so grateful these creativesouls are out there.
I'm so grateful that you gofrom interviewing the cast of
Wicked to interviewing me.
I just I feel honored to beable to share this story.
Yeah, I just I feel likethere's no shame in this game
and I'm living this out loud asmuch as I can.
(54:34):
If it starts to take too muchenergy doing so, I won't.
But for right now, I am buoyedby my community, my medical team
, my friends, my family and yeahand I'm looking at this as the
washed up jock that I am like abig swim meet tomorrow.
Okay, let's go, let's do this.
Jennifer Coronado (54:57):
Yeah, well, the thing that I want to say to
you, as a sort of final wrap upwhich, that is, a better wrap up
than I could ever do is, whenit gets dark and the day starts
to end, just remember that thereis sunshine tomorrow and that
the sun does come up, you know.
Jessie Creel (55:14):
That helps me so much.
And we are at the time of theyear when the days are getting
longer, yeah, and I tell my kidsevery day that I have less
cancer today than I didyesterday, and I will have less
cancer tomorrow, and that's ourmeditation.
I can't promise anything else,but I can promise that else, but
(55:41):
I can promise that.
And so that is you know what.
I hope we all, um, we all cantake some sort of format of that
.
Um, you know and and understandthat like, yeah, this is, this
is what's happening.
And I had a little bit of guiltthat that I was doing this to my
kids, um, and then I was like,no, this is going to make them
awesome, like look at you, jen,like you were like out there
because you, you saw firsthandwhat it was like, and you are
(56:03):
constantly like helping I don'twant to say the downtrodden
because again, apparently I'm ina time machine like really far
back, You're out there, likeyou're out there always, like
helping the people whose voicesneed to be amplified.
And that's from a deep sense ofempathy and that is earned,
from having been close to aparent who is really ill.
(56:25):
And so you know, is itsomething you wish upon your kid
.
No, but like, let's, let's takethe.
You know they're going to betough cookies, yeah.
And they have amazing friends sofar.
They think cancer is pretty rad.
They got to go to a Lakers gameand then, you know like I mean,
they just think they're like,wow, what we got sent this.
(56:45):
Like, oh, my God wait, we getto eat cake for dinner.
What?
They're Pavlovian a little bit.
But things are going to getreal for them soon enough and I
am going to need my communityand I'm grateful that you and
Erin are in it, and thank youfor letting me bloviate for
another hour on this podcast.
(57:07):
Yeah, I will be kickingcancer's ass in the meantime.
Jennifer Coronado (57:11):
Well, I think that the thing that I will say
about illnesses, because, my momhad multiple myeloma and to me
and she didn't have healthinsurance and it was very
difficult and it was pre-ACA andI was in the room when she
passed and I felt her heart stopbeating and I thought then it
(57:33):
is not fair for people to haveto go through things like this
without the care they need andwe need to do better.
So I appreciate you sharing it.
Jessie Creel (57:42):
Well, I love you for sharing that too, and if you
ever want to do a secondpodcast with me, we can go toe
to toe with these insurancepeople I'd love to talk to some
of them.
Yeah, with these insurancepeople I'd love to talk to some
of them yeah, boy, you're notkidding, I mean my God.
Anyway, I love you guys.
(58:03):
Thank you so much.
Jennifer Coronado (58:05):
Love you too, jesse.
Thank you for listening toeveryone is.
Everyone is is produced andedited by Chris Hawkinson,
executive producer is AaronDussault, music by Doug Infinite
.
Our logo and graphic design isby Harrison Parker and I'm Jen
Coronado.
Everyone Is is a slightlydisappointed Productions
production dropping every otherThursday, so make sure to rate
(58:27):
and review and like andsubscribe.
Thanks for listening.
I have found it.
You know the patience in thequestion and the wheel of life
and the tensions between lightand dark and river and borders
and all of these like pairs ofopposites and being able to hold
things at the same time.
The duality of life, like allof these things have really like
come up and there's so much apart of like what I love about
(00:20):
storytelling that I really feellike there's been a merge
between my life's, calling mycareer and how to survive.
Jennifer Coronado (00:30):
Hi, welcome to Everyone Is.
I'm your host, jenniferCoronado.
The intent of this show is toengage with all kinds of people
and build the understanding thatanyone who has any kind of
success is successful becausethey're a creative thinker.
So, whether you're an artist ora cook or an award-winning
journalist, everyone hassomething to contribute to the
human conversation, becauseeveryone just is.
(00:53):
My name is Jennifer Coronadoand I'm here with my friend,
jesse Creel, who we interviewedin last season of our podcast
Everyone Is, and Jessie is areally awesome, dynamic producer
and for those who listened tothat episode, which I know there
are so many of you, during thatepisode Jessie had pneumonia
(01:14):
and she was coughing quite a bitand since then she's actually
discovered that she actually haslung cancer.
And, jessie, I wonder if youcould really talk about, like,
how did you suddenly go?
This is more than justpneumonia, this is more than
bronchitis.
Jessie Creel (01:35):
What were your realizations?
Oh well, this is going to soundarrogant, um, but I lost an
ocean swim that I shouldn't have.
Um, and I remember going whatLike that would have embarrassed
all of my coaches Like what washappening, and I was just like
I couldn't catch my breath.
I had done a week of thisamazing nine to 12 lifeguard
training.
(01:56):
That in the California coast isusually done for junior guards,
but in down here they decidedto offer it for adults and I was
like the Guinea pig and I got afew friends to do it.
Andrew was one of them.
Andrew won everything, by theway, and he, matt did it, also
my husband and they were justlike, did you get walloped by a
wave?
Like what happened?
(02:17):
And I was like I don't knowwhat happened, but like I got
home that day, it was the finalday and I go, I can't lay on my
right side.
How funny.
This was the end of August andthe first week of September I
texted my therapist and I said Ijust think I have stage four
(02:37):
lung cancer.
I can't explain to you why.
Should I go to a pulmonologistor should I take an Ativan?
Jennifer Coronado (02:46):
And what made you text your therapist versus
like your primary care physician, Like did you just want to
check that you were notoverthinking something?
Jessie Creel (02:56):
No, it's because I hadn't felt heard by my primary
care physician.
But it wasn't his fault, it wasa lack of knowledge about my
disease.
And the fact is that evenbefore I went for my
bronchoscopy, my lungs soundedfine.
So the only way to really seelung cancer is to do a CT scan.
(03:20):
I called my friend Kenny Lin,who works at UCI.
He's an MD-PhD scan.
I called my friend Kenny Lynn,who works at UCI.
He's an MD PhD.
But his path to success wasStanford undergrad, harvard MD,
mit, phd.
Oh, just little schools.
I said, hey, I need apulmonologist.
He said you should go see DrColey at Paloma Medical Group.
He's the best.
Dr Coley at Paloma MedicalGroup, he's the best.
(03:44):
He's just like.
He's who you want.
So I called and he was bookingout to the middle of February
and I was like, well, that's notgonna do.
So they said but we can offeryou an appointment with his
partner tomorrow and I said,great.
And the reason that I went from?
Oh shit, I had to have majormouth surgery and that's why I
(04:14):
delayed the pulmonologist,because I had such severe
regression that I was about tolose two lower teeth.
So they had to do a connectivetissue graft and I had already
punted it once because of thepneumonia and I was like I've
got to get this done because Iknew deep inside that it was a
box.
I had to check if there wasworse things down the pneumonia.
And I was like I've got to getthis done because I knew deep
inside that it was a box.
I had to check if there wasworse things down the road.
Because oral health is soindicative of overall health.
Can we talk about that really?
(04:34):
quickly Like yeah, why is yourmouth and your eyes not part of
your body, especially when youreyes are part of your brain,
right, like I don't know, Idon't know, I do not know that I
just found out that New York isrequiring insurance to cover
cold capping, which cold capping, which is something I can't do
because of the type of cancer Ihave, but it's helped a lot of
(04:56):
people save their hair, and Iwas like go New York, go, like
way to go.
And so, you know, incrementally, I'm hoping that well, it's not
.
It probably is not going tohappen in the next four years,
but I will live long enough, Ipromise, so that I can see all
of these changes that I wantthrough, um, because I'm, I'm so
close to it and I'm so I just,I just have such I don't want to
(05:21):
say clarity of vision, becausethat sounds completely arrogant,
although there is an arrogancethat you have to take on, I
think, with cancer.
But I have, you know, I'm beingtreated at the City of Hope
with a tandem team at Stanfordwho came up with the same
protocol without yet talking toeach other, which makes me feel
(05:43):
really good to call without yettalking to each other, which
makes me feel really good.
And the doctor who Carl's wifeis consulting with is the chief
oncologist at Stanford and sheis the doctor who is in One
Breath Becomes Air.
And he said well, I think thereason that your oxygen like the
(06:04):
amount you can blow out isbecause you have so many sutures
in your mouth.
And I said I don't think so.
I said I've been coughing outsutures.
I've been coughing, I said theamount of sutures I've been
coughing out and this isprobably such.
This is hopefully where I'm notgoing to lose your audience but
I was like it was like you know, a tally at like a bar you know
what I mean.
(06:24):
Like it was like something thatlike, oh my God, I could tell
how much I was suffering.
And I and I, like you know, Ikind of grew up in a home like a
jock who was like walk it off,swam, swim meets with ear
infections, you know, playedlike soccer games with hurt
knees, but it was something thatjust said no, he said I know
(06:49):
you have to get to physicaltherapy because my body was
aching and I was doing physicaltherapy and I said, yes, but he
goes, but come back tomorrowmorning for the six minute
walking test.
So I came back, did that?
So I came back, did that?
Like blew it out of the waterand so not a good way to tell if
you have lung cancer.
(07:09):
So so far, listening to lungsClear and a six-minute walking
test didn't do it.
Jennifer Coronado (07:18):
But you kept pushing because you knew there
was something wrong with yourbody.
Jessie Creel (07:23):
Which I've come to learn is interoception, slash
the patriarchy.
So I have a list of five thingsthat I want to read.
Not this is not I'm not goingto read all through this, but
five things that I want to readat the end of this podcast so
that people who are especiallyin healthcare deserts which is
an access problem, a geographyproblem, a whole slew of reasons
(07:46):
I want to help them learn someof the things they need, to
advocate for some of the lexiconand to follow their intuition.
So, luckily, this doctor, drRauser.
He said you know what, I'mordering you a CT scan.
You're complaining, you're inpain, your pulse is a little
(08:09):
high, and so I'm ordering you aCT scan.
So the next day, so, but thatwas, oh my God, I did the
walking test on election day, somy pulse was like way higher
than it should have been, but Ihad walked the pier in my little
beach town.
I had like no problems withthat kind of thing.
And so the week following that,wednesday, I get the CT scan
(08:30):
and Dr Rauser called me and saysI need you to come in.
And that's never a great callfrom a doctor.
Jennifer Coronado (08:36):
No, because they could tell you you're fine
over the phone.
Jessie Creel (08:40):
But now my husband was away.
He was at Stanford, ironicallyenough for a philanthropy
conference, because apparentlywe like spend a lot of time at
Stanford.
Now, even though ironicallywould have never, he would have
gone in there.
But I didn't pay enoughattention in school to get high
enough marks.
But I just had this brave faceand I went and sat with the
(09:02):
doctor by yourself and by myself, and he said I just want you to
know we have the most amazingcancer care here.
I was like, well, that's a wayto start.
And he said but you need abiopsy and I'm not the one to do
it, so Dr Coley's the one to doit.
And Dr Coley is like in thenext room and he'll be in here
(09:25):
in five minutes.
And Dr Coley, who's initiallywho I wanted to get Right.
And so he comes in and he'sthis very charismatic man who is
so finely dressed and likereally confident, and he's Sikh
(09:45):
and that's very much a part ofhim, and he wears a beautiful
turban and he comes in and justhis presence made me feel better
and he was like, well, let'slook at the scan together.
And I'm like I don't want tolook at the scan, like I'm so
scared.
He said there's no reason to bescared.
Um, let's look at it.
And so he said I am slottingyou for bronchoscopy surgery on
(10:05):
Wednesday.
And this was on a Fridayafternoon, matt's getting home
from the airport and meanwhileDr Rauser had called Matt who
was going through TSA, beinglike I just want you to know the
conversation I have with Jesse.
It was like cinematic, howcrazy this was.
He's like you hear TSA comingthrough and he's like cancer,
like what.
So we go and matt is prettygood at like I don't know.
(10:30):
He was just like the like, evenkeeled, like college athlete
and high school quarterback andhe's like he's really good at
evaluating things, whereas I'mlike, yeah, it's cancer, I know
it's cancer, like it's my body,it's cancer, I know it's cancer,
like it's my body, it's cancer.
And he's like we don't knowthat it can be other thing.
So the next day, saturdaymorning, dr Cooley calls me.
(10:52):
He says you know what I need toget you in on Monday.
Jennifer Coronado (10:55):
Tell me about that, when you're approaching a
biopsy like that, like what areyou feeling?
What like that?
Like what are you feeling?
What's the prep for that?
Like like yeah.
Jessie Creel (11:15):
So I just like I don't want to be an ageist at
all, but I am I am starting tonotice that I'm a fish out of
water.
So I'm waiting in thepulmonologist waiting room and I
am 30 years younger thaneverybody else.
Yeah, you know, I'm waiting inline at the um endoscopy and
colonoscopy place for thebronchoscopy and I am the only
person who doesn't have to haveassistance into any of the beds
(11:39):
or you know anything.
Yeah, um and um, I like there'sjust something I'm starting to
sense.
Okay, like, okay, like you,this is where I like arrogantly
put myself on the hero's journeyand I was like, okay, I
definitely had a call to leavethe cave when I was in
Albuquerque visiting my parentsthis summer and I passed a huge
(12:00):
blood clot through my lungs.
Like that was like a huge, hugething.
There was a time when I wascamping and I had to sit upright
to catch my breath and thenthere was that time when I
couldn't lay on my right sideand it turned out it's because
the tumor had collapsed my rightlung.
So those three things I hadcompletely ignored until my
(12:26):
pride got the best of me and I'mlike I should have done better
in that ocean swim.
Um, now, was that really it?
I don't know.
It was my mask, you know, andthat was like it was what I was
wearing, um and I.
So I, so I left the cave alone.
When Matt was going through TSAis when I really felt like I
(12:46):
left the cave and I started tomeet my mentors.
Um, immediately, dr Coley, as Isaid, you know, got me into the
bronchoscopy Tuesday.
He pushed, he was actually inBoston teaching a class and he
pushed for the path committee toreview it because the next week
was Thanksgiving and I wassupposed to go to Austin to
visit my very sick 92 and a halfyear old grandmother.
Jennifer Coronado (13:09):
So he pushed and he said he called Matt and
he said it's cancer, it'sadenoid carcinoma, I'm guessing,
it's primary cancer of the lungand I have gotten you in with
the clinical director at thecity of Hope, irvine, and I just
(13:33):
was like I knew it and Matt waslike you know that was the
(14:01):
shock, and that's when a personand you want to help them and
you want to take care ofeverything, but you're still a
person with agency and you wantto do the things you want to do
and you don't want to be toldall the time what to do, but
also sometimes you need help.
So it's that balance right.
Jessie Creel (14:18):
And I was very public.
I mean, I sent to my closestlike 30 contacts, the people I
love, the people who I don'twant to disappear from this
earth without having contactwith, of which you were one.
I sent the email about mycancer and I started to say
there's so much shame in thisgame.
I don't know if it's ourpuritanical heritage or why we
(14:41):
try to assign behavior becausepeople are like what?
You have lung cancer, you'venever smoked.
Like what the hell?
And I'm like.
Anyone who has lungs can getlung cancer.
And also, 40% more women die oflung cancer than they do of
breast cancer.
Why do we demand mammograms butnot CT scans?
Right, because CT scans costmore money um, and, and philip
(15:03):
morris has done a good jobburying those statistics um, so
there's, there's a whole lot ofjust gross, like machiavellian
shit that happens in washingtondc that we don't even know about
, the den of thieves.
I mean, we, we know about itmore now than ever, but, um, you
know, it was one of thosethings where I, my friend,
(15:25):
Jessica Yellen, who's thisamazing I guess they call them
creators now, but she was ajournalist and multi body
winning amazing journalist andshe called me and she said what
can I do for you?
And I said I don't know, I'mjust learning.
You know, I'm learning.
I had sent the results toMichelle up at Stanford.
And she goes oh my God, I'm sosorry, Um, but you're going to
(15:46):
fight and you're going to winand we're going to get you to
win.
And Carl was like, you know, hewas echoing what Michelle was
saying and he was like we'retalking about you a lot in his
house.
And, um, you know, it's just,you're going to fight and you're
going to win.
He goes you've got this andwe've got you.
So Jessica calls me and says youknow, I would love to introduce
(16:07):
you to Ann Wojcicki, who Ican't say the last name of, but
she had founded 23andMe and hersister, Susan, who is the CEO of
YouTube, passed away of thisexact cancer in August.
Not the exact cancer, thenon-small cell lung cancer.
She had a different mutationand that mutation wasn't found
(16:28):
in enough people to warrant theamount of investment in a
targeted therapy that it shouldhave.
And so Anne hooked me up withthis wonderful woman, Marsha
Horne, who's the head of ICANN,which is the International
Cancer Advocacy Network, and shewas like you have to talk to
her.
And this is happening at theexact same time that I'm meeting
(16:50):
with my oncologist for thefirst time at the City of Hope.
And so I get out of thatmeeting and he says I just have
a feeling, I know what this is,but we have to send this out for
genetic testing to see how to,if we can target therapy.
And so he goes, and thentomorrow you're going to do a
(17:10):
PET scan and the next day you'regoing to do a brain MRI.
And I was like, wow, I'm goingto be at the city of hope quite
a bit, Okay.
So I leave and Marsha calls meand she says I just talked to
Ann and I want you to knowthere's two names in the game
with this kind of cancer DrNishan at City of Hope and a
(17:32):
doctor at MD Anderson and I said, oh my God, I'm Dr Nishan's
patient.
I said I was just with him fortwo hours.
How did that happen?
I have no idea.
I said I was just with him fortwo hours.
How did that happen?
I have no idea.
I have absolutely no idea.
But it made me think, oh my God, how do we multiply him so that
the poor OBGYN in rural Idahoisn't doing a bronchoscopy on a
(17:54):
patient, you know, because ofhealthcare access, trying to
cover it all and realizing like,oh my God, like I got the like
LeBron James of this cancer.
So I was kind of like, wow, youknow, amazed.
And then the PET scan revealedthat I had some bone mets.
The brain MRI revealed that Ihad six spots in my brain,
(18:17):
because apparently the cancergoes to the most fertile place
first, which happened to be mybrain.
Jennifer Coronado (18:25):
Of course.
Jessie Creel (18:26):
And so I was like, yes, thank you, trying to see
the silver lining in everything.
But my whole goal was to getclearance to go to Austin and to
see my grandma.
So I get the clearance.
We're sitting with Dr Nishanand he's like so sweet.
But you know, like this is theguy who graduated top of his
medical class and like he's juston it and he's also a blood
(18:50):
doctor and I have a blooddisorder.
So he's always seeing that inthe background and it's amazing.
And I have to give props to thewoman who runs my general, my
GP's office, because she handdelivered all my medical files
Chantelle Shore, coco is hernickname and she drove the files
(19:10):
over.
And Dr Nishan goes who are you?
I've never had files deliveredby hand before.
As soon as, like they learnedof the diagnosis, they like she
was on it, like she was justlike whatever you need, she
waited till I was out of thatappointment, um, but so Friday
he's like yeah, you can go toAustin and I go is, are you
telling me this because it's thelast time he goes?
(19:31):
No, I want you to go next yeartoo.
And I was like, hmm, okay, likeI'm gonna take that as a
positive sign and I'm going tolet that seed grow.
Jennifer Coronado (19:44):
And you should, because another thing
that people don't know aboutsevere illnesses is a big part
of it is the head game.
So if we're going to go back toCaitlin Clark and we're talking
about athletics, athletics isphysical, it is a head game and
it's the same thing withcombating an illness right.
So you have to feel like youhave the possibilities or it can
(20:10):
really take you down.
Jessie Creel (20:11):
Hope.
And guess what?
Guess what nurtures a good hopeis my Zoloft prescription and
having the Klonopin when I startto go down those really dark
alleys, or having, you know, thebreathing treatment when I
become short of breath, havingmy inhaler.
Having access to millennialdoctors by the way, dr Coley and
(20:35):
Dr Nishan both give me their,their um cell phone numbers and
I can call them anytime.
That is a new thing.
That is a wall coming downbetween the hierarchy of patient
and doctor and I call them bytheir first name.
You know what I mean.
It's just wonderful.
Jennifer Coronado (20:55):
And sometimes that's you, jessie, I have to
say, sometimes that's you, youjust bring that out of people.
Jessie Creel (21:01):
I broke them, but I will also say that they really
, both of them, believe wedeserve better in this country
healthcare-wise, and we do.
And so I was like raging, youknow, because it was right after
the election and I was going toTexas and I was like, but I was
going to Austin, so thank God,but I was just like raging about
it all and I said somethinglike I just can't believe how
(21:25):
hard it is to advocate foryourself as a woman in this
healthcare world.
And Dr Nishan looked at me andhe goes.
You know what the hardest hitgroup by that is the black women
with sickle cell who are notbelieved.
And he goes, and I've seen itfirsthand.
If I could have magic wand to,like you know, flip the switch,
(21:46):
I would.
And, my God, like our patients,what they're telling us is is
first in line, you know, andeverything else we do is
supporting of that narrative,and that goes back to the head
game thing that you were talkingabout.
Of that narrative, and thatgoes back to the head game thing
that you were talking about,which, again, like I know, you
(22:08):
know I'm facing mortality.
What I had to decide prettyearly on part of me leaving the
cave and meeting my mentors, ofwhich I have the most amazing
team and Wajidzki is like youknow.
Marsha Horn is the woman to talkto whenever you're feeling down
, because she knows what studiesare coming down the pike and
she knows what trials you canget into.
And she knows Dr Nishan and sheknows me and all of this
(22:29):
wonderful stuff.
But I was just like I'm meetingmy mentors and tomorrow I start
chemo, which I'm looking at asmy time in the underworld.
You know where the hero'sjourney goes, into the bottom.
The mentors send you in andthen you go and you start
learning what your magical poweris at the end and you go back
(22:49):
to the cave with it and you helpserve others.
That's the story of a thousandfaces.
And yes, for me to put myselfon that, I drew that for my
sisters when they found out.
I drew that for Matt.
I've drawn it in Pac-Man termsfor my kids.
But I think that puttingyourself in the bigger picture
(23:11):
of humanity for a fight likethis also helps alleviate some
of the pressure on it, becauseit doesn't feel so individual.
It doesn't feel so individual.
I really feel so individual.
I really draw the line athaving to console other people
over my diagnosis, because thattakes energy uh-huh, I totally
agree, and here's, here's thething, and you can answer this
or not.
Jennifer Coronado (23:32):
Yeah, but you mentioned your kids.
Yes, and you have three kidsbeautiful, lovely, different
humans, yes, and human beings intheir own right, as Judge John
Honchun would say on his podcastyes, yes, yes.
And they're pretty young.
So you talked about talkingabout this journey in Pac-Man
(23:54):
terms.
How did you tell your kids?
Jessie Creel (23:56):
So you know what's funny I told my kids through a
Zen story called the Farmer'sLuck.
It is the story of a man whoseson breaks his leg and this guy
comes over and says what badluck you have.
And he goes, we'll see.
And then the next thing happens, you know there's a sequence of
(24:19):
events and the son doesn't endup having to go off to war
because of all of this thathappened, which had been such
bad luck, and the dad wasunwilling to commit to feed
either side of that.
I think that, like you know,there's a patience in the
question, and so I read my kidsthat story and they had dealt
(24:40):
with me coughing for five months.
I read my kids that story andthey had dealt with me coughing
for five months and I said youknow what, guys, my cough is the
farmer's son's broken leg,because most people with this
cancer don't have a cough andthey don't have a sign, and so
they wait and they wait and theywait and it, you know, gets a
lot worse for them.
And I said so I want you to seethat this cough that's in your
(25:02):
memory from camping and from allthese trips, like it was a
blessing in disguise and it wasechoed by the City of Hope
doctors who said we actuallyhave something we can like.
You haven't heard me cough thatmuch, right?
That's amazing, like I neverwould have dreamt that pre to
Greece.
So I couldn't get through onesentence without coughing.
(25:23):
I'm probably going to startcoughing now.
But I had three completelydifferent reactions.
Um, my 10 year old said likeokay, like okay, I'm glad we
have this information.
And I said yeah.
And I said Clemmie, your bestfriend, cecilia, her dad
information.
And I said yeah.
And I said Clemmie, your bestfriend, cecilia, her dad, andrew
, the studio I'm in, survivedleukemia 20 years ago and got
(25:46):
pulled off a rock tour.
I really am going to prop comicit now, because if you want
that story, it's his book ThreePianos, which is amazing, and he
has this foundation called DearJack and they just raised $1.2
(26:07):
million this past year foradolescents and young adults
facing a cancer diagnosis.
And I said and he got throughit.
And I said and your friend, youhave another friend in your
class whose mom had cancer andshe got through it.
And Clemmie goes yeah, that'sright, and you're as tough as
they are.
So that was that was.
You know how she dealt with itand she's stoic and she's an
athlete and she's just like,just even keeled right my middle
(26:27):
said well, their cancers, theircancer, like how are their
cancers?
Similar to yours, myseven-year-old, who did two laps
around kindergarten and hasthoughts of why are we made of
stardust?
Like how do we know dinosaurslooked like that, like you know,
like she has these big thoughtsand then it's like doesn't want
(26:47):
to use the and and in sentencesat school, like.
So she asked me the hardestquestions.
And Josie, my five-year-old,named after that Josie Wales.
He said can I watch TV nowBecause he's little?
He's little, he's inkindergarten.
I had to have conversations attheir age but I had to not cheat
(27:08):
any of them out of the, out ofthe realness of what we're
experiencing as a family.
But I wasn't gonna like like Iwasn't gonna take their
childhood wonder, I wasn't gonnagive take their childhood
wonder, I wasn't going to givethem anxiety.
And I very quickly said youknow what?
I've never smoked, but even ifI smoked three packs a day, you
(27:31):
don't deserve cancer.
Said we're not going to startjudging people's behavior.
I said that didn't work in theAIDS epidemic and it's not going
to work for this.
And they were like what's AIDS?
And then we went down thatwhole thing but yeah, so like
that.
But then I thought like what issomething that we can do?
But what is AIDS is like?
Oh my God, what a miraculousquestion.
(27:51):
When I was growing up I neverthought that would be a question
.
Jennifer Coronado (27:54):
I thought it would steal all of us.
Yeah.
Jessie Creel (27:57):
Yeah, the shame game, and just this, like living
(28:18):
in, oh, so, like, what aquestion.
And that gave me like this.
But then I said, you know what,like you know, um, that's,
that's what we'll do.
And so that's what we did.
And then they were like, well,we got shot, so don't we get ice
cream now?
And I was like, oh, they'reback to normal, okay, that's
good.
I had alleviated stuff and thenI started the oral medicine and
(28:38):
I caught pneumonia yes, um,again, you know.
And I was able to get a CT scanand they never get to measure
to Griso at 14 days because theydon't think it's had a chance
to do its work yet.
And they already saw that mylike pleural effusion, my water
around, like everything, hadstarted shrinking.
And then I had a brain MRIFriday and my brain mets have
(29:02):
gone from peanut M&Ms to M&Msand it's like holy shit, like so
I'm going into chemo in areally good position.
Jennifer Coronado (29:11):
Can you talk to me about what Tigriso is?
You mentioned it.
It's obviously a treatment.
Jessie Creel (29:16):
Yeah, so I have the EGFR mutation.
Yeah, egfr, and it is basicallywhat caused this cancer.
It's as my oncologist says whenanybody comes up and says what
did you do, like, did you, youknow, consoling them.
Basically, what people areasking me to do is tell them
(29:38):
that they are going to liveforever, and that is not
something that anyone I meaneven the great faiths can't
promise that.
Jennifer Coronado (29:46):
Right.
Jessie Creel (29:46):
So to agree so is funny, because the thing that
caused my cancer is why we cantarget it.
It has been developed in thelab and it's been on the market
a few years and my oncologistsaid that in vivo which means in
the lab or something Carl orMichelle could correct me Um,
(30:09):
but it means basically, likethey, they sprinkle the Tegrizo
on the cancer cells and theywatch the cancer cells just melt
, um, and so I take it every dayat 7 am.
I cannot touch it.
The pharmacist said that I haveto wear gloves and I yell when
(30:29):
I take it.
I yell Tagriso, and the wholefamily knows that I've taken it
and they all picture the youknow, I mean it's a fun word and
you, you know and they allpicture um pac-man, and it's
become so normal, um, that like,and I'm very, very grateful
(30:50):
that it's you know, today andnot five years ago, yeah, or 10
years ago yeah and the stuffthat's coming down the pike.
Um, I know from my communitythat I've built quickly or I had
built and then I could call on,is really positive.
(31:10):
And Dr Coley and Dr Nishan putme in touch with two women who
are a few years ahead of me inthis and they've been so helpful
, a few years ahead of me inthis, and they've been so
helpful.
Um, I have my friend, naimaraza, who, um she you might know
(31:34):
the name, naima who used toproduce for caris wisher, yes,
yeah, so she made a podcast forme with her friend feday, um all
for me, which was 30 minutes ofFede giving she's a year out,
she's a year ahead of me adviceand she's a mom of three kids
and it was the most beautifulthing.
My husband and I are listeningto it.
I look over and he's sobbing.
He's like I'd never seen such abeautiful gift that they would
give themselves to you like thisto give you information, and I
(31:56):
was like we can share it andthat was amazing.
I've never met Sede but we havebeen so close since then and
she's like you know what, takeyour hypothalamus and make it an
animal and I said, okay, I'llmake it my favorite dog ever,
hooch, who was like the mayor ofany city but sometimes would
(32:17):
get so scared that he'd hide inthe corner of a room shaking.
And I said that's me.
So I'm going to talk to Hoochand she was giving me all these
tricks and I was like thiscommunity is so amazing and we
share so much, so, even thoughthe wisdom, I haven't gone back
to the cave, it's kind of likethe circle isn't such a neat
(32:40):
circle, you know, like we canshout from the underworld and
help others on either side.
And I think that, yeah, I thinkit's been.
It's really been a tremendousgrowing experience.
I don't like when people saythat my therapist by the way,
I've been seeing her for 12years I'm like a little
(33:00):
different.
And you called about canceradvice, what?
Yeah, exactly yeah.
So she said to me because I go,piper, like Dr Walsh is how
most people refer to her but I'mlike Piper, like it's just my
hero's journey, like what areyou talking?
Like it's just my hero'sjourney, like I'm going to meet
(33:26):
my mentors, I'm going to go.
And she goes oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It is fucked that you havecancer is fucked.
Like I don't want you to be inthis denial, like, and she was
like calling me out on wow, Iwas in serious denial but I was
like but it's a good place toaim for is to like put myself on
that like roundabout, like whatcan I do?
I feel like that's the serviceof mythology is, we can do it in
real time.
You know, like Joseph Campbellobviously looked at it backwards
(33:48):
but I have found it.
You know the patience in thequestion and the wheel of life
and the tensions between lightand dark and river and borders
and all of these like pairs ofopposites and being able to hold
things at the same time, theduality of life, like all of
these things have really likecome up and there's so much a
(34:10):
part of like what I love aboutstorytelling that I really feel
like there's been a mergebetween my life's calling my
career and how to survive.
Jennifer Coronado (34:19):
Yeah, Well, I mean, there's several things in
there that I hear like allthrough this right, and number
one is yeah, it is fucked thatyou have cancer.
I think it sucks and I'm goingto help you any way I can.
Jessie Creel (34:33):
Thank you and.
I know you are not just sayingthat you are the best.
Jennifer Coronado (34:37):
But it is your hero's journey, because
that's the mental place youchoose to launch yourself for
how to deal with this, andthat's okay too.
Yeah, so both can be true.
But also, what I hear too, isyou've spent a lot of time
building a community that,weirdly, has surrounded you in a
way.
(34:57):
That's very helpful for thisjourney that you're on.
It's insane.
Jessie Creel (35:03):
Yeah, I mean like the, you know the, just the,
when breath becomes air.
Um, his widow, um blurbedCarl's book projection.
So the whole reason I paidattention to Carl's book was
because Andy Ward, who's anamazing nonfiction editor at
Random House, who's the top ofthe line there, was on board for
(35:29):
Carl's book and I'm a producerenough where I love reading book
news manuscript form.
This one I had found when itjust came out and I saw that
(35:58):
Lucy who to say?
But unfortunately, like Paul,was stolen from us by this
cancer and Lucy had to finishthe book.
But it was a unbelievable featthat they got this out there.
And a Pulitzer Prize finalist.
I mean, it's just such abeautiful book and he's so
vulnerable.
But he doesn't feel sorry forhimself and I definitely am not
that good.
I definitely feel sorry formyself, especially when the sun
(36:19):
goes down.
I don't know why it might be mybenchmark of okay, another day
to fight.
You know, I get a little, I geta little sad and it's just,
it's unbelievable.
They see life and death everyday.
Some of my like biggest mentorsI got.
I may I cuss because one ofthem today, who I've never heard
(36:39):
cuss, who is like the finesthuman being, married, father of
three girls.
His wife is just amazing.
They're just rock stars.
His wife's on the board ofPlanned Parenthood up your way,
so we love them.
And he said today's yourreminder to fuck everyone and
fuck everything and just getbetter.
And I was like, wow, likethat's coming from someone I
(37:02):
revere and like this is kind ofthe message that I'm getting now
and so I'm looking at thispodcast as kind of my like
closing message before I go intothe fight, of my like closing
message before I go into thefight.
Yeah, and I appreciate yougiving me the time to do that.
(37:23):
I didn't realize the such closerelationship between cancer and
mental health and it's going togive us a new POV for our
scripted series.
Yeah, and I said to Carl likeyou know, how much did you leave
out of the book with cancerpatients?
And he's like probably as muchas what's in the book.
I said okay, well, that's a newcall for me.
(37:43):
I'm hearing it.
I'm hearing it loud and clear.
His wife is a MacArthur GeniusAward winner because of her work
in cancer, pediatric oncology,and the biggest gift of all that
she gave me is that she has nowso she does pediatric brain
cancer.
But because of our friendshipand this, she has now started
(38:04):
studying non-smell cell lungcancer in her lab, which is just
unbelievable because she's gota brain that I mean I'm
surprised it fits in her head.
To be honest with you, I meanshe is just brilliant and she's
creative as hell andcompassionate and she's an
amazing physician, and now she'sgoing to be able to dedicate
(38:24):
her huge lab to seeing theneuroscience of cancer, which is
what she's a pioneer in.
And what she has reallydiscovered is that cancer is
really a microscope of humanbiology.
And you could she was becamethe expert on long COVID because
of her knowledge of braincancer and addiction and all of
(38:46):
these things.
And so what, like I hope tocome from all of this too, is
that you know we can harnesstechnology to really start to
understand human biology and getin front of these things, um,
and get in front of these thingsin in um, in the sociological
way too.
Yeah, you know like say like,oh, my god, there's not a
(39:08):
hospital there for like ahundred miles.
Like, um, let's build one.
And you know, let's make surelet's pay somebody enough to
live there and serve them.
Or you know what I mean.
There's just so much solutionsLike people don't need a bigger
plane, they don't need a biggeryacht.
How rich is too rich is aquestion Naima is going to
(39:29):
handle on her new podcast.
But like I'm starting to sniffit pretty that there's a lot of
people who are too rich and so,like I, there's this clarity
that comes with cancer of likewell, if I think I'm going to
survive, my God, it's such agift to be here, like it's a
gift to survive.
How am I going to give back Now?
Andrew, in his wonderful bookprop comicking again, did not
(40:00):
have it so easy.
He took his last dose of chemowith a shot of jägermeister and
he talks about the darkexpectations put on you, or the
light expectations that cause adarkness put on you when you
survive an illness, like he did,um and so like that is helpful
too.
And when I was diagnosed Icalled him.
He came over and I cried in hisarms for an hour and he was
(40:22):
like I feel bad for the diseasethat meets your body.
He goes, I, like you know hejust said he goes, jesse, like
we've got you.
And then he introduced me thisis an amazing prop comedy to we
got this, where he bid on thisring for me that says we Got
this, it's lit.
So I joke to my Lakers, peoplethat don't be jealous.
(40:45):
But so this is an amazingorganization that offers
registries for cancer patients,so like things they might need,
and so I don't mean to likepromote it.
I have, very fortunately, beensurrounded by so much.
(41:05):
I live on a like we live on atiny, I mean a congested street,
but we're all so close and Ican't even I was dropped off so
much homemade broth yesterdaythat like I have to store it in
neighbor's fridges, like I aminundated with things.
So people are saying like howcan they like, what can they
send?
And I'm like, no, go go buysomebody a juicer in my name on
(41:28):
this registry.
Jennifer Coronado (41:29):
Hold that a little closer to the camera.
I want people to be able to seethat we got this.
Jessie Creel (41:32):
Yeah, I'm like go and do you know what, like in my
name or in somebody's name whohad cancer or another horrible
disease or had to face mortalityfrom addiction or whatever,
like go and just like give thatway, because we live in a 1400
square foot house and we, like Ireally can't take anything more
(41:55):
, Like I cannot take anythingmore on.
In fact, we have people comingtomorrow called the germicidal
maids and they are coming tolike I'm going a little control
freak and they're coming to likeQ-tip our vents.
You know, I just want to comeback from chemo tomorrow
afternoon or tomorrow evening,get in my bed and know that like
we're set up for success.
I mean, come on, Do you needthat?
(42:18):
Probably not, but it's mymental game.
Jennifer Coronado (42:20):
It's partially mental.
Going back to the sociology ofillness, the thing that I want
(42:43):
to say that I think is superimportant is we tend to like
punish people for being sick asa society, yeah, like we put a
scarlet letter on them.
Illness we need to not bankruptpeople through illness.
There are so many things thatwe can do as a society to just
help our fellow human beings.
One of my favorite writers isKurt Vonnegut, of course, and he
(43:06):
talked about and I can'tremember, I think it was in one
of his essays and it was aboutwhat if we divided humanity into
groups and you're allresponsible for A?
Everybody in A group has tohelp everybody in a group.
So if you see somebodystruggling in a group, that's
your responsibility and that'swhy you don't feel responsible
for everybody, but there'salways somebody caretaking for
(43:27):
somebody, right, yeah?
And I feel, I personally feelthat that is why we are here as
humans on this planet.
We are here to help and supportother people and engage with
other people, and if we getother stuff out of it.
Jessie Creel (43:43):
Orders are imaginary.
Yeah, great.
Jennifer Coronado (43:47):
But the feeling you get from being part
of a community and helping otherpeople through things is
something that could benefit somany people who I think get
disconnected right.
Jessie Creel (44:00):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I think that you know.
I think Kurt Vonnegut oh my God, did you see his documentary
Magical?
And that's a reminder that thiswas a deeply depressed man who
lived on the hedge of comedy.
You know what I mean.
He found that tension and Ifeel like anybody like I have.
(44:23):
I can have deep moments ofmelancholy, I can relate to that
and where he was like just sofunny, was like where you'd stop
and say like, if this isn'tnice, I don't know what is, you
know just these reminders, orthe fact that I this is going to
go on record I the no shame inour lice game.
We've had lice six times in thepast 12 months.
(44:45):
And I Matt was like, oh, I'mgoing to make a nice dinner.
You know it'll be like the lastdinner before you start this.
You know we start this fight.
We're going to sit as a family.
And he called me before thepodcast started and he goes uh,
I need the name of our lice lady.
I just got a call from school.
All three kids have knits intheir hair.
So, uh, we are going to bedoing that for dinner.
(45:08):
And it's like laugh, you know,like laugh, you make plans and
God laugh.
Jennifer Coronado (45:15):
Exactly Right .
Jessie Creel (45:15):
And you know, and so it was like I could
romanticize this night, or I canrealize I'm a mom of three who
you know, life happens, so, um,I I want to like I know that
we're going short on time, andso I want to like be able to
read the.
Jennifer Coronado (45:35):
I can thing for people.
Jessie Creel (45:36):
Yes, please do.
I hope that anyone facing adiagnosis like this can get
their body into the fight statein a way that keeps their
nervous system calm.
And I think the first phonecall should be to a therapist
and a psychiatrist, because wecannot do this alone.
(45:59):
And if I did not have my Zoloftprescription or my therapist,
piper, or my nurse practitioner,patty or Carl, a text away, I
would not be as strong, andeveryone deserves this strength.
I really, really believe it.
(46:20):
We are a very isolatedpopulation.
Loneliness is at the top.
I can say that, yeah, I thinkKurt Vonnegut's essay, I know
exactly what you're talkingabout.
I think religion operated inthat space for a long time but
created really tough boundariesbetween the groups and and
really that coming down has been, has been, a beautiful thing,
but nothing, not much, notenough, has replaced it, and so
(46:44):
I I couldn't agree more.
Yeah, and I really I think whatI've seen is like the cancer
community takes care of eachother.
Like I, you know, anonymously,like not anonymously, I someone
called me and said hey, I knowyou're going through shit right
now, but I have a friend who hasa cough who's at the hospital
and nobody will listen to her,and can you talk to her?
(47:04):
And I said I can talk to herand I'm going to get her a good
doctor.
She starts chemo tomorrow withme at the same place.
Jennifer Coronado (47:10):
Wow.
Jessie Creel (47:11):
This was the week before Christmas, so the like,
and I had never met her.
So the point is see yourself inothers.
You know what I mean.
Like, what cancer has taught meis it's so much bigger than
that.
This is a blip.
We're going to get through itand like we're going to help
each other.
Jennifer Coronado (47:28):
That's what we have to do.
Yeah, we have to do that.
Jessie Creel (47:30):
And so here's five tips.
I feel like Letterman, buthere's yeah, here's five tips.
So know your biomarker.
This is the five principles ofICAM, international Cancer
Advocacy Network, given to me byMarsha Horn for cancer patients
and specifically in getting, ifyou are in a healthcare desert,
(47:54):
get out of it, and these areways that you can get out of it.
So know your biomarker.
If you can't describe yourbiomarker, maybe your cancer
hasn't been analyzed fully.
But you need to know yourdriver mutation or biomarker and
memorize what that is.
Breast cancer patients it couldbe HER2 positive, non-small
(48:14):
cell lung cancer patients likeme.
Egfr mutated, with a particularmutation found in many never
smokers who've done everythingright and who are very
physically fit.
Thanks, marsha, for writingthat little compliment.
So you know pancreatic cancerare you crass?
Pronounce K-R-A-AS.
There's just so much wisdomthere.
(48:36):
So just remember biomarker andGoogle it Like we all have
Google, I hope, my God Okay.
Second opinions are key.
90% of cancer patients aretreated by community oncologists
, but not every communityoncology center has time for or
research infrastructure toconduct a clinical trial.
So call ICANN and get your nameon the list, because they will
(48:58):
get to conduct a clinical trial.
So call ICANN and get your nameon the list, because they will
get you into clinical trials andthey will get you approved
within three or four days whereinsurance would take four weeks.
This is an advocacy network andthey raise money to do this and
Dr Nishan knows them.
They're just.
They're just a really.
And they, you know, grantedmoney to Dr to Michelle's lab at
Stanford.
They're just a really.
And they, you know, grantedmoney to Michelle's lab at
(49:18):
Stanford.
They're just an incredibleorganization.
I didn't even know they existedbefore I had cancer.
Number three is clinical trialsand compassionate use.
Virtually every commonlydiagnosed cancer and many
cancers with ultra-rarebiomarker-driven cancer are the
focus of clinical trials in theUS and abroad.
The topic of what clinicaltrials are you most interested
in for me should be broached ateach appointment with your
(49:39):
oncologist where your diseasehas grown and your team urgently
needs to find a differenttreatment going forward.
This is a huge reminder thatyou are your own best advocate.
It's also a reminder that youdon't have to be married.
You don't have to have a spouseby your side, but, my God,
bring someone along, becausesometimes, when shit hits the
(49:59):
fan, you have like yourquestions fly out of your face.
You know what I mean.
You're just like what you like.
Watch them float away.
Then, number four communicationwith the oncology team.
Nothing is more important thanopen communication with your
oncologist and oncology nursingstaff at the medical center
where you are getting treatment.
Show gratitude to everyone eachtime you're with them your
(50:22):
oncologist, the team and theinfusion nurses.
Don't ever ask about lifeexpectancy.
Because of the robustness ofthe drug pipeline and because of
more and more options nowadaysfor cancer patients virtually
every cancer they really cannotmake an educated guess.
The goal is optimizing yoursurvival and your quality of
(50:43):
life.
Side effects Don't be a hero.
Report.
Medicine has come along so muchthat they want to help you.
There's not.
We're trying to recede the ideaof nobility of suffering.
They're going to load me uptomorrow for an hour and a half
(51:03):
with pre-drugs to help get methrough the chemo drugs and then
on Friday do it again.
They want this to be notblissful.
It's not going to be like aayahuasca retreat.
Jennifer Coronado (51:14):
Yeah, you're not getting a facial Right.
Jessie Creel (51:15):
I mean, it is not getting a facial, right, I mean,
it is so amazing in 2024.
Now I'm going to tell, I'mgoing to add a number six
because you know me and myopinion.
So the oncology nurse saiddon't get pregnant.
And I said, of course not, likethat's not a possibility for me
, but like that sounds reallyscary.
(51:36):
During chemo, what happens whena stage four metastatic patient
comes in pregnant?
And she says, well, inCalifornia we're okay, but in a
lot of the country the fetus nowdrives the decision.
And to me I'm thinking, oh,that seems like a really big
(51:57):
problem.
And so I hope that theseconversations now I am a big
believer, I'm a oh my God, Icouldn't be more pro choice
because I'm getting to makeevery decision informed consent,
(52:18):
super informed consent.
But like the idea that a womanwould have to face that is
despicable and it's just, itjust launches me into like so
much of of my again.
That's like combined, likeeverything seems to be weaving
itself together and making sense.
(52:38):
But here's a, here's anabsolute area where it hit me in
the face like this is somethingthat like for the first time.
It's like, yeah, if I don'twant to have a kid, I'm not
gonna have a kid.
I did in vitro, like I'm justnot gonna have a kid, um, but
yeah, it was.
Oh my God, like it does affecteveryone.
You know, like, if this isn'tan us versus them, this isn't me
(53:01):
giving a Planned Parenthood,being like like girls, I got
your back.
This is like a major violationof my human rights.
Um, and, and seeing itfirsthand, so bodily autonomy,
like it, it just it.
It shook me and I wanted tomake sure to use this platform
to be like, hey, everyone who'svoting for people who are
(53:22):
pro-life which is not a term Ilike to use, because being
pro-life and cancer is is beingon the side of the cancer
patient.
But, um, I, I want you to electpeople who let women decide
what's best for their body andlet their doctors decide.
(53:43):
You know, don't let these fatcats in Washington decide.
Fat cats, what am I?
Jennifer Coronado (53:48):
like, mickey Rooney, but you know what I mean
, mr Smith.
Jessie Creel (53:52):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Oh my God, jimmy Stewart.
I won't give you my JimmyStewart impression, but Mary
Mary, you did that.
There it is I know I can't, Ican't, I didn't, sorry, um, but
anyway, I just wanted to liketell you guys how much I loved
you.
I love your podcast.
I don't miss it.
(54:12):
I'm so grateful these creativesouls are out there.
Don't miss it.
I'm so grateful these creativesouls are out there.
I'm so grateful that you gofrom interviewing the cast of
Wicked to interviewing me.
I just I feel honored to beable to share this story.
Yeah, I just I feel likethere's no shame in this game
and I'm living this out loud asmuch as I can.
(54:34):
If it starts to take too muchenergy doing so, I won't.
But for right now, I am buoyedby my community, my medical team
, my friends, my family and yeahand I'm looking at this as the
washed up jock that I am like abig swim meet tomorrow.
Okay, let's go, let's do this.
Jennifer Coronado (54:57):
Yeah, well, the thing that I want to say to
you, as a sort of final wrap upwhich, that is, a better wrap up
than I could ever do is, whenit gets dark and the day starts
to end, just remember that thereis sunshine tomorrow and that
the sun does come up, you know.
Jessie Creel (55:14):
That helps me so much.
And we are at the time of theyear when the days are getting
longer, yeah, and I tell my kidsevery day that I have less
cancer today than I didyesterday, and I will have less
cancer tomorrow, and that's ourmeditation.
I can't promise anything else,but I can promise that else, but
(55:41):
I can promise that.
And so that is you know what.
I hope we all, um, we all cantake some sort of format of that
.
Um, you know and and understandthat like, yeah, this is, this
is what's happening.
And I had a little bit of guiltthat that I was doing this to my
kids, um, and then I was like,no, this is going to make them
awesome, like look at you, jen,like you were like out there
because you, you saw firsthandwhat it was like, and you are
(56:03):
constantly like helping I don'twant to say the downtrodden
because again, apparently I'm ina time machine like really far
back, You're out there, likeyou're out there always, like
helping the people whose voicesneed to be amplified.
And that's from a deep sense ofempathy and that is earned,
from having been close to aparent who is really ill.
(56:25):
And so you know, is itsomething you wish upon your kid
.
No, but like, let's, let's takethe.
You know they're going to betough cookies, yeah.
And they have amazing friends sofar.
They think cancer is pretty rad.
They got to go to a Lakers gameand then, you know like I mean,
they just think they're like,wow, what we got sent this.
(56:45):
Like, oh, my God wait, we getto eat cake for dinner.
What?
They're Pavlovian a little bit.
But things are going to getreal for them soon enough and I
am going to need my communityand I'm grateful that you and
Erin are in it, and thank youfor letting me bloviate for
another hour on this podcast.
(57:07):
Yeah, I will be kickingcancer's ass in the meantime.
Jennifer Coronado (57:11):
Well, I think that the thing that I will say
about illnesses, because, my momhad multiple myeloma and to me
and she didn't have healthinsurance and it was very
difficult and it was pre-ACA andI was in the room when she
passed and I felt her heart stopbeating and I thought then it
(57:33):
is not fair for people to haveto go through things like this
without the care they need andwe need to do better.
So I appreciate you sharing it.
Jessie Creel (57:42):
Well, I love you for sharing that too, and if you
ever want to do a secondpodcast with me, we can go toe
to toe with these insurancepeople I'd love to talk to some
of them.
Yeah, with these insurancepeople I'd love to talk to some
of them yeah, boy, you're notkidding, I mean my God.
Anyway, I love you guys.
(58:03):
Thank you so much.
Jennifer Coronado (58:05):
Love you too, jesse.
Thank you for listening toeveryone is.
Everyone is is produced andedited by Chris Hawkinson,
executive producer is AaronDussault, music by Doug Infinite
.
Our logo and graphic design isby Harrison Parker and I'm Jen
Coronado.
Everyone Is is a slightlydisappointed Productions
production dropping every otherThursday, so make sure to rate
(58:27):
and review and like andsubscribe.
Thanks for listening.
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