Tim Miller: Ready, Fire, Aim!

Tim Miller, the creative mind behind blockbuster hits like Deadpool, Terminator: Dark Fate, and the Netflix hit Love, Death & Robots, gives us an insider look into his incredible career. From his early days in Southern Maryland,  to his initial dreams of becoming a comic book artist, Tim’s path is both inspiring and filled with unexpected turns. Discover how his love for drawing and reading turned into a passion for filmmaking, visual effects, and storytelling.

What does it take to adapt beloved books into films while staying true to the essence of the original material? Tim shares his experiences and challenges in doing just that, as well as his journey from waiting tables to working in medical film animation, eventually leading to a groundbreaking career in 3D animation and visual effects. Hear about his pivotal move to Los Angeles, his tenure at Sony Imageworks, and the defining moments that gave him the confidence to start his own visual effects company.  

Tim dives deep into the collaborative nature of filmmaking. From valuable insights into mentorship and advice from industry titans like James Cameron and David Fincher to personal anecdotes revealing the importance of humility and collaboration, this episode is a treasure trove of knowledge for aspiring filmmakers and creatives alike.  

www.slightlyprod.com

Episode Transcript

Tim Miller (00:00):
A VFX supervisor walked through the machine room
and said hey, did you do that?
And I said yeah, and he goesit's pretty good, you're looking
for a job.
And I became completelyobsessed because it married the
two things that were interestingto me science fiction, living
in this idea of tomorrow, andart.

Jennifer Coronado (00:18):
Hello and welcome to Everyone Is.
I am your host, jenniferCoronado.
The intent of this show is toengage with all types of people
and build an understanding thatanyone who has any kind of
success has achieved thatsuccess because they are a
creative thinker.
So, whether you are an artistor a cook or an award-winning
journalist, everyone hassomething to contribute to the

(00:39):
human conversation.
And now, as they say, and nowas they say on with the show,
tim Miller is a creative, a VFXentrepreneur, a director of such
films as Deadpool andTerminator, dark Fate, and also
a writer and executive produceron the Netflix series Love,
death and Robots.
Tim is also known as being apretty frank person, so we're

(01:01):
excited to have the chance totalk to him today about his
life's path.
Tim Miller, welcome to EveryoneIs.

Tim Miller (01:07):
Thank you very much.
Where did I get that reputationfor being frank?

Jennifer Coronado (01:11):
Well, I've seen lots of interviews with you
, but I've also heard it frompeople working in the industry.
I want to start at the verybeginning.
I want to start at yoursuperhero origin story.
So where'd you grow up?

Tim Miller (01:22):
I grew up in middle-class household in
Southern Maryland, right acrossthe river from DC place called
Fort Washington.
It was great.
It was a great place to grow up.
My dad was an interior designer.
Although he didn't graduatefrom high school.
He faked a degree from collegeand got into the National

(01:42):
Association of InteriorDesigners and my mom ran our
business and she was verycreative and she made these
little miniature figures.
And my dad was very creative.
He was a writer, he wanted tobe a writer and he wrote a lot.
But he also had a great eye and, even though he never graduated
high school, he did a room inthe White House and we did all
kinds of stuff for thegovernment and things like that.

(02:03):
I hung a lot of drapes,delivered a lot of furniture.

Jennifer Coronado (02:06):
So you were surrounded by creatives as a kid
.

Tim Miller (02:09):
Yeah, not in the way that you get when you're out
here in Hollywood where you dothis for a living and it's all
day, every day, which is great,but people that I think in an
older time there were a lot ofcreative people that really just
had followed sort of atraditional path for their work,

(02:29):
but then creativity sort ofbubbles up and comes out in all
kinds of places in their lives,and so it was always there.

Jennifer Coronado (02:38):
Did your parents encourage you to draw?
Because I know as a little kidyou liked drawing as well.

Tim Miller (02:43):
Yeah, and I wanted to be a comic book artist and
realized I wasn't good enoughand I always drew.
And then I wanted to be anillustrator and in fact I was a
freelance illustrator for awhile, but I was also weighing a
lot of tables to make money.
I just love to draw, I woulddraw anything.

(03:04):
And I started by by, like a lotof artists too, I would copy
frank frazetta and comic booksand I painted.
You know, my closet doors werejohn layton's iron man covers
and the bottom of my bed was aroger dean green slate painting
and my bookshelves had wolverinefighting the Hellfire Club

(03:25):
painted on them, and so I wasalways copying and then I would
do my own stuff too.
And that's really what I wantedto be was an editorial
illustrator.

Jennifer Coronado (03:35):
So, when it comes to comic books, did you
find, as a young person, you'relike this is the artist I love,
or were you just drawn to thestories first, or what was the
thing that drew you in there,that made you want to be in that
space?

Tim Miller (03:47):
I've always been kind of a nerdy, really
simplistic guy who likes heroesand villains, and I like my
moralizing very black and white,and I think I was very drawn to
comic books and it combined thetwo things that I loved most.
I loved to read.
My dad was a huge reader and hegave me A Princess Bride in

(04:13):
fifth grade and I locked myselfin my room for three days and I
came out and said what happensnext?
I must know.
And then it was every book thatEdgar Rice you know 27 Tarzans
and every book that Edgar RiceBurroughs wrote, and then it was
Robert E Howard and so on andCS Forrester and I've never
stopped.
So comic books was really themarriage of those two things.

(04:37):
It was the written word andstories and illustrations, and I
can't tell you why I was drawnto one artist or another.
I certainly had my favorites.

Jennifer Coronado (04:47):
It's so interesting.
You say that when I was a kid Iloved books so much.
I would walk around the houseand count how many books we had
in the house because I found itvery comforting to know that we
had all of these books that weresurrounding us, because there's
so much.
Also, you know, comic books areawesome.
I loved those as a kid.
But there's something to besaid about other types of books
where it's all your imaginationthat's generating the imagery.

(05:10):
That's why it's always soamazing when you see like a film
, that actually kind of connectsto the book, because sometimes
there's big misses, because youcan put so much more in a book
and it comes from youindividually.

Tim Miller (05:21):
You know, all too often I've heard writers where
I've worked with writers who whoare adapting material and and
they just don't give a shitabout the source material.
And and I guess if you're hiredto adapt a book and and perhaps
it's not a book that you love,maybe you feel, maybe you don't

(05:42):
love it because it's not yourtaste and you feel less precious
about it.
But all the books that I'veadapted, I adapted them because
I love them and I do think thatmaybe a particular skill I have
is how you can adapt it withoutruining what is, you know, most

(06:03):
essential.
Why do I love this book?
You have to change things, youhave to compress time and you
have to drop characters, and howdo you do that without ruining
the thing that you love?
Because if that's the case,then probably shouldn't adapt it
anyway.
But we've worked with a lot ofwriters and they're kind of rock
stars to me, especially withLove, death and Robots, because

(06:23):
between that and some otherthings we've done about 50 short
films.
Four, I think, were originals,but the rest were stories that I
found and really liked bydifferent authors and we have
relationships with them.
So I don't want to say, yeah,sorry, I fucked your story up.
I try and be as respectful as Ican and I think even when I

(06:48):
change things, they understandwhy and for the most part they
either agree or pretend to agree, and occasionally they've said
well, what if you did thisinstead?
Because I think this isimportant, I listen, because
it's their thing.
You know, they created it, I'mjust adapting it.

Jennifer Coronado (07:07):
It came from their brain and their soul and
their heart right.

Tim Miller (07:11):
Absolutely.
But I'm not going to adaptNeuromancer and throw away what
William Gibson did, right, Ican't even imagine, in fact, my
Neuromancer adaption, billGibson said was too beholden to
the book, which I thought waskind of funny.

Jennifer Coronado (07:30):
That's really funny.
So you're this East Coast kid.
You went to school forillustration and animation, yep,
and then you went to Hollywood.
How did that come about?

Tim Miller (07:42):
There was a lot of stops in between.
When I got out of college I wastrying to start a career as an
illustrator and I would get theoccasional gigs, but I had
waited tables all throughcollege and high school and I
continued to wait tables.
I like waiting tables actually,it's a job that makes time go
fast and you can make good money.

(08:03):
And so I waited a lot of tablesand did that.
And then my wife's father hadan ex-student who worked at a
place in Baltimore that mademedical films and if you got,
say, glaucoma, your doctor wouldsit you down and say, watch
this film about glaucoma andcharge you for that time while
you were sitting in his officewatching a film.
So the first film I directed wasso you have an STD.

(08:26):
I'm not making that up, that'sa true story.
But they said, hey, we do theanimations to illustrate the
concepts, the medical concepts,with this computer called a
Dubner 20K.
I had never worked on acomputer before, except, you
know, I'd seen the littleMacintosh, black and white, and
maybe an apple too, but neverwas interested in it to any

(08:50):
extent.
And then this was a 20 256color paint system with some
limited animation yeah and so Istarted on the night shift and I
thought it immediately.
I thought it was the greatestthing in the fucking universe
and I became completely obsessedbecause it married the two
things that were interesting tome science fiction and living in

(09:12):
this idea of tomorrow and art.
And so I became completelyobsessed.
And then they got a bettercomputer system and I became
more obsessed.
And then I got a job inWashington DC again.
So I moved from Washington toBaltimore and then back to DC.
And then I got a job inWashington DC again.
So I moved from Washington toBaltimore and then back to DC,
and while I was working at thispost house doing opens for the
discovery channel and thingslike that on a compositing

(09:34):
system, they asked me to demoout at NAB, which is a big
conference, and while I wasthere somebody with a post house
in Los Angeles said hey, youwant to come out here?
Back then in the early ninetiesLos Angeles was the Mecca of
computer graphics.
It was where all shit washappening and I had a friend out

(09:55):
here, jerome Chen, who's one ofthe big VFX supervisors at Sony
.
He did a bunch of Spider-Manmovies, black Fury, and Jerome
was working out here at a posthouse and he's like dude, it's
fucking great.
You know I'm working on musicvideos.
So I said, yeah, I'll come out,I'll come out and do that.
So I came out and worked atthis place called Action Video

(10:17):
and I was a compositor and Iwanted to learn 3D.
Because I got so tired ofasking the 3D artist, because I
got so tired of asking the 3Dartist, I bought a PC and taught
myself 3D because I said, well,fuck, I'll make my own.
And then that led to a job atSony Imageworks.

Jennifer Coronado (10:34):
Yeah.

Tim Miller (10:35):
Showing my friend Jerome some work I had done at
home in my spare time a littlepersonal project and a VFX
supervisor walked through themachine room and said, hey, did
you do that?
And I said yeah, and he goes,it's pretty good.
Are you looking for a job?
And I said no, he goes.
Well, you want one Because theyneeded animators.
And so I was hired as ananimator, which I had zero

(10:56):
training.

Jennifer Coronado (10:57):
Wait, wait, wait.
Literally.
You accidentally got hired asan animator.

Tim Miller (11:02):
Yeah, I was a compositor.
That wasn't my main focus, butI loved animation and so I said,
sure, I can do it.
I always had an abundance ofconfidence.

Jennifer Coronado (11:13):
Where does that come from?
Where does that abundance ofconfidence come from?
Do you think?

Tim Miller (11:19):
I think my parents weren't really that interested
in what I was doing, to behonest, they were super
supportive, but they weren'tunsupportive either, right?
So I would go, hey, I want tobe an artist.
And my dad would go, all right,sure, why not, you know?
And I'd go, ok, and I'd be, andI'd be an artist.
But it came from I don't knowbeing lucky.

(11:40):
I don't know being lucky, Imean, I often think in the
lottery of life I was given somuch that people consider things
that shouldn't be an advantage,like being a dude.
But let's face it, it is.
Being a white dude again,shouldn't be an advantage, but
it is, I have to admit.
And being lucky enough to beborn in a household that could

(12:04):
send you to college hugelyfucking fortunate.
Being born in america, alsousually forced.
So I mean I'm already in likethe top, oh, one percent of
lucky.
And if I fucked it up, I mean Iwould have to be some kind of
idiot, right, and I had a littlebit of talent, that that if, if

(12:24):
you work hard enough, you can,you can make it count more
because you've, you've, you'regiven opportunities that other
people don't have.

Jennifer Coronado (12:33):
Luck really you started your own visual
effects company, blur, and youwere pretty young and you
started in the 90s.
What gave you the comp?
So is that all this stuff thatyou built on?
Is that what gives you theconfidence to start your own
company, or did you want to setyour own rules?
What drove you towards that?

Tim Miller (12:49):
um or wrong, but I believed it.
You know Jeff Fowler, who is ablur director, directs the sign

(13:11):
movies.
Jeff says you know Tim Miller,frequently wrong, but never in
doubt.
Somebody, somebody else saidthe other day uh, tim Miller,
ready fire aim.
Um, I thought that was funny,uh.
So I think that comes frommaybe too much confidence.
But honestly, when you get downto it, when I left Sony really
because I didn't want to be anentrepreneur, I'd worked on
Hideaway and I'd worked onJohnny Mnemonic moved to the PC

(13:33):
department at Sony, which wasnothing back then because they
were doing Johnny Mnemonic,which was one of my favorite
short stories, and I knew PCs.
And even then I could see thewriting was on the wall that you
know my.
I worked in a department wheremy workstation cost about
$40,000 and the software thatran on it was like another

(13:55):
$40,000.
But at home I was working on aPC that costs like $2,000 and on
software that costs about$1,200.
And I'm like I can do 60% onthis and every year it gets
better, every six months it getsbetter.
I saw the writing on the wallthat it was all going to change

(14:17):
and by the time I left Sony itwas because you could buy the
software and the hardwarewithout you know a million
dollar investment.
So we took a $20,000 loan andbought three computers.

Jennifer Coronado (14:33):
Who's the we in that case?

Tim Miller (14:36):
It was this woman named Kat Chapman who was our
department manager in the Sonyprevis department, that's who
worked on Johnny Mnemonic, eventhough we did final shots.
It was the previs department,that's who worked on Johnny
Mnemonic Even though we didfinal shots.
It was the previs department.
It was her and another artistnamed David Stennett and then
eventually my best friend fromchildhood, who is a programmer,
became our CTO, joined in yeartwo, and then Jennifer Miller,

(15:01):
who I was married to and was adesigner.
She joined in like year three.
We went pretty quickly fromlike three people to 20 or so
and maybe within the first year,year and a half, and then we
kind of just kept growing.

Jennifer Coronado (15:18):
You started a business and you're a creative
person and sometimes thosethings don't map Like.
Sometimes it's people who arecreative, they're challenged on
one side, or the business peopleare challenged on the creative
side.
So who took what role in thatsetting up of a company?
Were you driving most of it orhow did you look at it?

Tim Miller (15:41):
Before I answer that , I'll just say the answer to
your.
The first part of your questionwas did it come from an
abundance of confidence that Iwas able to start the company?
But I will say that at sony,after we finished johnny
mnemonic, I said let me go getsome work like battlestar
galactica or deep space nine.

(16:01):
All that stuff was being doneon pcs, right.
And I said we'll get that stufffor their apartment because
it's fucking cool.
And Sony wasn't interested, itwasn't worth their time, and so
they didn't want that.
And so I said, well, I'll goget it, let me just try.
And they said, no, we don'twant that.
And so I'm like, okay, well, Iguess I have to start my own

(16:23):
company.
I had some job offers to goback like make a lot of money
and be a compositor oncommercials and music videos and
stuff, but I'd had enough ofthat.
I didn't want to do it anymoreand I've never really cared
about money, and so anyway Isaid, okay, well, let's just
start our own company.
How hard can it be right?

(16:44):
And maybe it sounds a littlescary, but really, if we failed,
what happens?
We go back to our high-payingjobs in the visual effects
industry, I mean, you know, andsign your house as collateral
for an equipment purchase.
It felt like a low risk.

Jennifer Coronado (17:02):
How do you make that transition and were
you the one guiding that?
How are your business partnersworking with you?

Tim Miller (17:10):
I'm not a smart business guy, but I'm pretty
practical and and, and though Idon't care about money, I
understand that people aren'tgoing to work for you unless you
pay them, uh, and you need topay rent, et cetera, et cetera.
But the fact that I didn'treally care about money, I think
it was an advantage, eventhough most of the time people

(17:31):
thought it wasn't an advantage,and I'll explain that.
We would do a job, we wouldunderbid it or our own creative
expectations were more than thebudget allowed, just because we
were artists and wanted to dosomething super cool and I was

(17:51):
willing to lose money to make ithappen.
If I just cared about the money, I would say, well, look, let's
just do the minimum to make theclient happy and keep them
coming back.
But I was never trying to keepthe client happy, I was trying
to keep me happy, right.
So we would go above and beyondand if it wasn't good enough,
we would lose money, versusgoing to the client and say,

(18:12):
look, we're sorry, we're askingfor more money because you can't
follow your work around and goyeah, it's not that good, but
honestly, the client didn't giveus much money or we didn't have
enough time or we got fucked insome way.
So there is no excuse to putout bad work.
I mean, there are excuses butnobody wants to hear them.

(18:32):
So I did everything I could tonot have that happen, even to
the detriment of the company andthe people.
Sometimes we had a bit of a repas a sweatshop, but it was never
because we were making money.
It was because we wanted to dobetter work than perhaps we were
getting paid to do.
But over time that builds avery loyal clientele and it

(18:55):
attracts better artists becausethe work is better and that pays
real dividends in a.
In a business where the work isyour calling card dividends.
In a business where the work isyour calling card, if it's
great work, artists want to comeand clients want to work with
you, and then the money kind oftakes care of its.
Well, I'm not going to say thatbecause that's insulting to
producers.
The money doesn't take care ofitself, but the work becomes the

(19:20):
thing that defines you.

Jennifer Coronado (19:22):
I heard someone who interviewed you once
say blur is like a gym.
You go there when you want toget buff.
What do you think he meant bythat?

Tim Miller (19:33):
Because expectations are very high.
I can't tell you what it was.
I mean I always worked hard inlong hours and back in the days
when we didn't get OT oranything, because I loved it, I
was interested, I wanted to dogood work and again, I didn't
care about money and I was sointo it and so that attitude

(19:57):
pervaded probably the first 15or 20 years of Blur and we had
an all staff model.
We didn't pay overtime, wetried to compensate people by
saying take comp time, take theweekends off when you can, and
things like that.
But we didn't really track itand it was full of a lot of
young, aggressively eager peoplewho were just trying to do

(20:19):
great work and everybody wascompeting with everybody else in
a healthy way.
I mean, we had a good time anda lot of these guys, like
Richard Bluff, your friend,would say it was some of the
best times of their lives, eventhough we're working our asses
off.

Jennifer Coronado (20:35):
What are some of your proudest
accomplishments?
I can tell you what my favoritework of you guys is.
I love the credits for the girlwith the dragon tattoo.
Yeah, I thought that was socreative and so visually
interesting and really wastonally exactly what the film
needed.

Tim Miller (20:54):
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm certainly proud ofthat.
I would never put it at the topof my personal list, because so
much of that was Fincher,because so much of that was
Fincher, even though David wasvery he's very hands-off, but
also very hands-on At thebeginning he sends me an email

(21:17):
with eight words, that's it.
And then I said okay, yeah,well, we're in.
And then I said what do youwant to do?
And he said I want to tell thewhole story of all three books
in two and a half minutes.
I read all three books and cameup with a visual style.
We put a bunch of ways like wecould handle sort of abstract
vignettes, and he really likedthis, these performance art

(21:40):
pieces where this dude would gointo a museum and pour black oil
all over himself and stand in acorner weird and he's like I, I
want that.
That black on black dream stuffis what he called it.
So I said okay, well, what doyou want the vignettes to be?
And he goes I'll get back toyou.
And then, and after a day or so, I just said well, how about if
I write a bunch and you cantell me which ones, um, you like

(22:00):
?
And so I wrote like 50 and Ithought oh well, he'll pick 20.
But he said these are all great, go.

Jennifer Coronado (22:10):
You know how many takes, he does.
Come on.

Tim Miller (22:14):
We just we just get along really well, he's exacting
, but so are we.
There were many things like.
Rockfish was a huge thing forme.
I worked so many hundred hourweeks and I was very proud of it
.
Love, Death and Robots is ahuge thing.

Jennifer Coronado (22:31):
Yeah.

Tim Miller (22:32):
Deadpool in a very different sort of a way, but I'm
prouder of Love, Death andRobots, to be honest.

Jennifer Coronado (22:39):
Well, I'm excited to see what you have.
I do want to dig into Deadpoola little bit, because I famously
remember that you guys did atest that helped get the film
greenlit, and I think youfocused on that movie for like
five or six years before it wasdone.
So how did that all come aboutand why was that important to
you?

Tim Miller (22:57):
There's an executive at Fox named Drew Trevello
who's still a very good friendand he's a writer now.
But Drew was working on X-MenFirst Class and he saw a DC
Universe piece DC UniverseOnline piece I did which was a
big superhero fight, and he wasworking on X-Men First Class,
and he said hey, you know anychance you?

(23:19):
He tracked me down and said,came down to meet at Blur and
said you clearly understandsuperhero action, would you help
design some action for X-MenFirst Class?
And I said sure, and I can'tremember what I said or which
way the conversation went, butwe talked for an hour or two and
then at the end of it he saidyou know, I don't think you

(23:39):
should be working for anotherdirector, I think you should be
directing.
And I was directing, you know,cinematics and things like that.
And he said I can't get you ona big movie because the first
time director is not going tofly.
But there's this thing calledDeadpool.
And I said, oh yeah, well, Iread the leaked script and it
was amazing.

(23:59):
The script was amazing.
And so then I met with LaurenceShuler Donner and I met with
Ryan and then I did a test thetest that famously leaked and we
did a budget and sadly, drewleft like a few months before we
got to the point where they saymake the movie or not make the
movie.
Had he stayed we might've madeit then because he was very

(24:22):
savvy executive.
But we got to that point wherewe had a budget and we had a
plan and we had that test andFox just said, no, we don't see
it, we don't want to do it.
And then everybody walks awayquickly, right, the boss doesn't
want to do it, and thennobody's interested anymore.
You had your moment and youlost, which is terrible, because

(24:43):
I would go look at the figures,look how many comic books
Deadpool sells, and look at thisand look, he sells action
figures and he's really popular.
And I would write every monthand Tom or Jim Giannopoulos
would write back to me and say,tim, we love your enthusiasm,
but no, thank you.
But we never stopped, and RhettReese and Paul Wernick, the

(25:05):
writers, and Jonathan ComacMartin, who was Ryan's producing
partner, we never gave up.
I asked Jim Cameron to write aletter and he wrote a letter and
we got to do a PG-13 draft andthen David Fincher called Jim
Gianopolis and said you know,tim's would make a great film
and give him a shot.
And you know we would try allthese things, the four of us

(25:27):
together.
And then three things happenedthe test leaked.
And number one the internetwent crazy.
And then, number two Rhett andPaul got Simon Kinberg on board.
They sent him the script.
Simon read it and said this isgreat, I'll help push it.
And he was the gatekeeper forall the Fox stuff.

(25:48):
And then Emma Watts really sawthat R-rated comic book movies
are a business opportunity.
It's a place in the marketwhere Marvel, disney, marvel and
Warner Brothers were unlikelyto follow.
They ultimately did, of course,but at that time-.

Jennifer Coronado (26:06):
It was a long journey to that though.
Yeah, it was a long journey andoff we went.
Well, yeah, and then you'redirecting a movie and you
directed cinematics.
But directing a big budget filmfor a studio different thing.

Tim Miller (26:19):
How did?

Jennifer Coronado (26:20):
you approach that?
Who were your partners?
Who helped you set that up foryourself?
Because it's a learningexperience.
You have your confidence,obviously, but how do you
approach that and also still runyour company at the same time,
Tim?

Tim Miller (26:33):
Blur was at a place where we had a lot of really
great people who could step inand cover for me In fact.
Fact, the company did better.
After I went to to directdeadpool, we made more money the
year I left it in any year,which should tell you something.

(26:53):
But but I, but honestly, Ithink this is the key and I give
this advice to everyone.
And jeff fowler, who's on histhird sonic movie I hired him
out of college so he was was youcan't pretend right.
When I directed Deadpool, I was50.
And there was a lot of stuff Idon't know.
I still don't know, but I hadthe confidence to say I don't

(27:18):
know this, help me.
And that is incredibly useful.
People are happy to help you,and so I said listen, I have a
vision for this, but I don'tknow how to get it there.
I don't know how to do it.
You guys all know my job andyours better than me, so please
help me, and everybody helps youget there, and so it's a really

(27:38):
great experience for everybody.
I think I mean, it was certainlya great experience for me, and
if you pretend that you know, oryou try and be that person that
is afraid to show that theydon't know, then the people know
you don't know and they justtalk shit behind your back and
you don't get the benefit oftheir help.
As a director, you accrue thisridiculous amount of credit for

(28:00):
anything, whereas it reallyshould be dispersed among the
whole crew.
So there was no downside to me.
I never felt like my authoritywas threatened or people were
working against me.
I think just admitting that youdon't know everything means
that people can feel comfortableabout helping you.

Jennifer Coronado (28:19):
I've heard you say you even asked your
script supervisor.
What can I do better?

Tim Miller (28:23):
Oh yeah.

Jennifer Coronado (28:23):
I think it just shows that you see that
it's collaboration right.

Tim Miller (28:27):
Her answer is it's always been a she on all my
movies, different she's, but heranswer is always you shoot too
many wide masters.
Um, but I can't seem to, Ican't seem to break that habit,
because that's kind of where Ifind.
You know, do you say this lineas you're walking up to the
table or do you walk down andthen say the line, because once

(28:49):
you shoot that wide master,you're locked into that,
whatever you did and and thencause, then you go in tight,
right.
But you know, then when you getinto the close coverage, if the
guy says the line when he'ssitting down, well, he's got to
do that from now on.
And famously, actors don'treally start acting in earnest
until you go into the mediumclose-ups right.

(29:12):
And so, anyway, that's where Ikind of work it out and I only
have one directing.
I'm not even going to say it'sa style, I'm just trying to do
what people would do.
What would people do in thissituation?
And you, what would?
What would people do in thissituation?
And you could go.
What would people do if theywere afflicted by cancer but
also superheroes?
What would they do?
Because you want to, I want itto feel grounded and realistic.

(29:35):
I don't want it to feel likesome heightened reality.

Jennifer Coronado (29:39):
Well, you've said before also that you know
your everyday life skills helpcontribute to making you a
director right, and that seemsto be part of that, like your,
your life experience and whatyou do every day right If you
say so, but what do you think Imeant by that?
I think what you mean is thatif you have to be a human
walking around in the world,don't stop being a human when

(30:00):
you're directing.
Because you have to connectwith people, you have to
understand where they're comingfrom.

Tim Miller (30:05):
Because you have a group of people, you have to
guide towards something, and ifyou don't recognize that, I want
people to like the process andlike me and like working with me
because I feel like that youget the better out of them.
Some people prefer fear,preferred fear.

(30:27):
I just never thought thatworked well.
I may have meant you know I do.
I am a keen observer of peopleand I'm always trying to figure
out what motivates them or whythey do what they do.
We had another guy here who wasa director and he really was
kind of a loner.
And he really was kind of aloner.
He was not unfriendly oranything like that.
He thought a lot, he was verytechnical and very innerly

(30:54):
focused and he made thesebeautiful short films.
But he said you know, I want todo bigger films, I want to be
Steven Spielberg.
And I said you have to likepeople and watch people and
understand people and engagewith them.
And your methodology and thefilms you make are really like
what can I do on my own as afilmmaker?

(31:15):
Because that's what you want todo, what you want, you want to
do it your way and you want todo as much of it as possible
yourself.
And I said that's not a way tomake those kinds of movies.
You can make really beautifulfilms, but you can't make Steven
Spielberg's type of films whichare really all about the
humanity of it.

(31:36):
But people don't want to hearthings like that.
He got angry.

Jennifer Coronado (31:39):
Honestly, tim , that's so deeply perceptive
because different people hearthings differently.
If you really want tounderstand people and managing
people and mentoring people, youhave to understand how they
hear things too.
Right, and so you were justtrying to say you have to listen
.
You know, and that's animportant part of the target
that you have your target can bedifferent, you know.

Tim Miller (32:02):
Yeah, and I was also saying look, play to your
strengths.
You know you're frustrated.
In my opinion, I mean, nobodyhas to listen.
This is just me offering.
I was talking to anotherdirector here who you know we
had had some, some.
There was like a littlesimmering thing for for a while
and, and you know I, we finallybroke through and I I said, look

(32:26):
, you feel like because I comefrom a story place where it's
all about reading and books andall, and I'm always talking
about story and character, andhe is more of a visualist.
Don't feel like I'm judging youbecause you don't read as much
as I do, because you can dothese incredible shots that on
my fucking best day I couldn'tcome up with those and they're
different styles of directingand you do that great.

(32:48):
If you're going to direct,we'll get you a great story
person to support you.
If I'm going to direct, I needa great camera operator and a
great DP to help me, becausethose aren't my strengths and
that's okay.
I think you just understandingwhere your weaknesses are and
getting the right people to helpyou is key.
Every director does that,whether they admit it or not.

(33:11):
They gather this group ofpeople around them who are
like-minded and who fill intheir weaknesses.

Jennifer Coronado (33:18):
Do you see yourself as a mentor when you're
telling people these things?

Tim Miller (33:22):
I don't think of it that way, cause I've I mean,
even though I'm old I'm going tobe 60 in a couple of months I
feel like I'm just trying tohelp a friend.
But mentoring, I think, takesmore discipline than I'm willing
to give.
It's like you know, somebodyasked me to be an EP on a film
where they had written to me andI'd said hey, I would do it

(33:45):
this way and I would suggestthis, and once you call this
person, they can help you out.
And then it got to the pointwhere they said well, can I pay
you?
Like we'll give you a big chunkit was a sizable chunk of money
.
We'll give you that to be an EP, and then you can help with
this process.
And I'm like no, first of all Idon't, I don't want the money,

(34:06):
but secondly, that obligates meto do it.
I'm happy to help somebody andgive them some advice, but if
somebody gives me money, wellthen you know that's a whole
other level of responsibility.
Then I owe something, versusbeing able to say, yeah, I'm
sorry, I got shit to do, I can't, I can't talk to you anymore

(34:26):
about it and I don't want theobligation.
And I guess that's whatmentoring would feel like, but I
do by pointing it out.
Another of the directors here,it was a younger guy.
I was, quite frankly, givinghim a pretty hard critique and I
said listen, man, all thisaside, what you're doing is
fucking great.
And let me show you what I wasdoing when I was your age and I

(34:47):
happened to be like he was like30, he's like 34 or something.
So I pulled up some stuff fromthe first years of Blur, which,
of course, is utter fuckingshite, and I'm like this is what
I was doing and so proud of it.
And look at what you're doing.
At the same age.
You will destroy me.
By the time you get moreexperience, you're going to be

(35:09):
so much better than I was,because you're already a hundred
times better than I was at yourage.
I enjoy that giving themperspective, because this is
true.

Jennifer Coronado (35:21):
Yeah, well, I got news for you, my friend.
That is, mentoring without thethe long term obligation of it
it's bike size mentor snacksthose are sometimes the things
that stay with people thelongest you know you know who's
best at that.

Tim Miller (35:33):
In fact, I've heard his friends say they're gonna
collect it in a book.
Sometimes, fincher, they'relike little fucking haikus.
I was having trouble withdeadpool because it was the
first live action film and Isaid, dude, where do I put the
camera?
I don't understand coverage.
And he would write somethinglike I think the only job of a
director is to know where to putthe camera and for how long.

(35:55):
Or another one I really loved.
He said film is about theexpansion and compression of
time.

Jennifer Coronado (36:03):
Oh, that's beautiful.

Tim Miller (36:04):
Yeah, and very simple and very true, right.

Jennifer Coronado (36:08):
Do you think of him as a mentor for you?

Tim Miller (36:12):
Absolutely.
He wouldn't say that when wewere doing Heavy Metal and
pitching that it took so manymeetings I mean I shit you not
like a fucking hundred meetingswe took to try and sell that
project.
And when you go to meet withDavid and this was pre-Deadpool
and even now it wouldn't makemuch difference David's the

(36:32):
alpha dog in the fucking room.
You know he's the OG and so wewould meet with heads of studios
and Tom Cruise and I would bethere.
But they're focused on David.
So I get to watch, right, I getto study how he handles the
conversations and he's verydifferent than I am smart and

(36:53):
poised and calculating, whereasI'm just like bleh, whereas I'm
just like.
But I still learned a lot byhaving a seat at the table at
the, you know, at the highestlevel, and watching someone who
is a real mastery ofunderstanding the filmmaking
process and the business offilmmaking.
It's such an education for me.

Jennifer Coronado (37:12):
I've talked to David before and I've seen
him once in an interview wherehe talked about when he was
working on the aliens movie andjoel schumacher gave him advice.
And the advice that joelschumacher gave him was david,
you can't care more than they doand he was talking about the
studio yeah, exactly, but davidwas like I can't, I can't take

(37:36):
that advice and I feel like howyou guys map together is you
care very deeply about theprojects you're working on.

Tim Miller (37:44):
Yeah, you know Julian Clark, who's edited the
movies I've made.
Julian is is is great.
But he says you know, there'stwo types of directors and his
experiences.
They're the ones that come inhere and there during the
editorial process.
And then there's the grinders.
He's like you're a grinder, Ican't even.

(38:07):
I can't imagine not giving iteverything you have.
I can't imagine not caring.
And it's not like it's a burdenor an onus, it's.
I mean, sometimes it is, butmostly you do it because you
love it, you know.

Jennifer Coronado (38:17):
Yeah, do you ever protect yourself a little
bit from the care?
Because sometimes when you careso much it can be hurtful when
a project doesn't go the way youwant it to, and I know in this
business that happens all thetime.

Tim Miller (38:28):
Right, I'm pretty good about that.
I mean, when it finally comestime to lose, I'll fight tooth
and nail when I feel like I havea chance, but when the bell
rings and the round is over, I'mpretty good about walking away.
Even with Jim Cameron and Ifamously fought on Terminator,

(38:51):
which is the thing that willbond us past that experience,
which Jim says look, it's twocreative people who had a
difference of opinion, but heloves the movie.
We both love sci-fi and fantasy, we're both nerds, and that's a
bond that you can get away witha few disagreements.

Jennifer Coronado (39:11):
I know that you're a big Joe Abercrombie fan
.
Yes, and you have.
So what's the book of his thatyou're going to make into a
movie?
What is, and you have, you have.
So what's the book of his thatyou're going to make into a
movie?
What?

Tim Miller (39:23):
is it?
Which one are you?
What are you targeting?
Well, I want to make them all.
I can spend the rest of mycareer making joe's books.
All of them are good, everysingle one.
If you were going to read them,I would start at the beginning.
Best serve cold is the fourthbook, about a mercenary general
who grows too powerful and soher boss tries to kill her, and

(39:48):
it's Kill Bill meets Game ofThrones.
And I can't say when it will bemade, because you know how
Hollywood works.
The strikes were not helpful tothe process and I can't tell
you when we're going to get thatmomentum back again.
But I can say this I will makethat fucking film, I will.
I will not, I will not failLike the goon.
I will make the goon someday.

Jennifer Coronado (40:08):
Yeah, I love it.

Tim Miller (40:11):
Nothing has ever been easy.
You know, heavy Metal was yearsand hundreds of meetings.
Deadpool was years and hundredsof meetings.
First Law, joe Abercrombie'sstuff has been, even though that
one was announced late, it wasafter years of working with Joe,
and we work on a lot of otherthings together too.
He's my favorite person on theplanet.

Jennifer Coronado (40:31):
What does creativity and imagination mean
to you?

Tim Miller (40:36):
Creativity is finding an innovative way to do
something that's been done inthe past to solve a problem or I
guess a story problem is not aproblem, but what's the best
solution here?
I think that's being creative.
How do I make this cometogether in a new and
interesting way?

(40:56):
Imagination is just the processthat you go through to get
there.
Everybody has their own tricksfor these sorts of things, but
you said at the beginning it wasabout the creative process and
I found this trick that workedextremely well for me for years
and still does.
Maybe it won't work for otherpeople, but I tell all the
directors here and so I'll shareit, which is sometimes other

(41:17):
people, but I tell all thedirectors here and so I'll share
it, which is sometimes you havea problem like a creative
problem to solve, like I have tocome up with an idea for a
commercial, or I have to come upwith an idea for a video game
story or scene.
I found it super useful to youhave this idea in your mind of
the problem that you're tryingto solve, like I'll use an

(41:38):
example like a Batman movie or acommercial that the client said
I want to see a Batmancommercial where Batman doesn't
throw a punch and I said, okay,well, what would that be?
And he's like I don't know, man, you're the creative guy.
So you have an idea about.
Are we going to do a Batmancommercial?
It has to be different andthat's in your head.

(41:58):
And then I find books on annuals, on photography or illustration
, where every page is a newimage.
It might be a museum exhibitioncatalog or whatever, but every
page is different.
And that idea is floating therein the back of my head and the
visual input is coming indifferently every time and for
some reason those two thingscome together in my subconscious

(42:21):
and I'll come out of you knowan hour of doing that and I'll
have two or three ideas.
What if it's?
We see Batman growing up incloseups through throughout his
life and he's always beingpunched or put down or abused,
and then he decides to fightback right at the end Wow.

(42:44):
But whatever you come up with abunch of different little ideas
that then you can expand upon.
But it's that blank canvasmoment that's hard to get past
and that is very helpful, I find.

Jennifer Coronado (42:55):
Well, Tim, I know you don't think you're a
mentor, but I felt mentored bythis conversation.

Tim Miller (43:00):
Well, tim, I know you don't think you're a mentor,
but I felt mentored by thisconversation.
Well, hold on a second.
You do this with everybody.
What's the single best piece ofadvice, or two, that you've
learned from creative people?
Where somebody said this iswhat I do, or this is the way I
think, or this is the way I viewthe world.

Jennifer Coronado (43:14):
One of the ones I did was with one of my
very close friends, and he's arefugee and LGBTQ.
You know he's born in Iran, andone of the things that he said
and I think this resonated withAaron as well, our producer is
that goals, not plans, becauseyour plans are going to have to
change all the time.

Tim Miller (43:34):
That's a good one.
Yeah, I use the no plan.
Survives contact with the enemy.

Jennifer Coronado (43:39):
Yeah, that's great.

Tim Miller (43:40):
I read a really great book called from Andy
Dukes, who is a psychologist anda poker player and I'm not a
poker player.
I think it's called Thinking inBets.
But one of the things in onechapter went over goals and
they've studied the fact thatyou know most people go I'm

(44:01):
going to imagine a goal and howI would get there and I'm going
to imagine the steps I need totake to get from here to there.
But they actually have a higherrate of success if they imagine
themselves at that goal andfailing and they look backwards
and say what didn't I do?
That led to me failing at mygoal.
What didn't I plan for?

(44:22):
That led to this moment.
It's just like looking atsomething from the other side
and it actually, for whateverreason I don't know how it works
inside the brain but itmotivated them in a way that was
more effective than thinkingabout your success.

Jennifer Coronado (44:39):
That's really interesting.
I wonder if that's all tied tolike fight or flight and what
really programs humans to bemotivated, because sometimes we
gravitate towards how do we getaway from the disaster versus
what is the success.

Tim Miller (44:52):
It's because the disaster has such a high penalty
.
I read a lot.
I'm really interested innonfiction too, but when you
think about there was, I can alot.
I'm really interested innonfiction too, but when you
think about there was, I can'tremember what I was reading.
But when you think, okay,you're a primitive man on the
plane and you're walking to thewater hole and you hear a
rustling in the bushes, justlike we're all prone to look at

(45:13):
negative news and clickbait thathas the negative headlines.
Clickbait that has the negativeheadlines, that rustling in the
in the tall grass.
Everybody looks right and yougo.
Well, fuck, 99 times out of 100.
It's nothing but evolutionary.
Cost of looking every time isnothing compared to not looking

(45:34):
the one time that it's a lion.
So evolution has kind ofprogrammed you to.
That's cheap.
Fear is cheap compared to beingeaten and not a very effective
strategy for your genes.
I love those littlepsychological things.
Andy Duke's book is reallygreat, but I have all the
Malcolm Gladwell books.

Jennifer Coronado (45:54):
Do you listen to his podcast?

Tim Miller (45:56):
No, I don't, but I always listen to his books on
tape and anybody who wants toread joe abercrombie's books I
highly recommend listening tothem, because the gentleman that
reads them, steven pacey, isamazing.
I've listened to all of hisbooks like and there's 12 of
them I've listened to all likeeight times through.
It's fucking crazy.

(46:16):
But anyway, annie dukes hasthis chapter where she talks
about people they're even prosat playing poker where they'll
get inordinately influenced bywinning or by losing.
And she said you listen topeople in the tournament, what's
going on?
You might hear somebody gettinga little louder in anger or joy
and she calls it they're intilt.
And she calls it they're intilt, which means that their

(46:40):
emotions have started tooverwhelm the logic and strategy
of the game.
And you don't make gooddecisions when you're in tilt,
which you know.
Anybody that's ever walked awayfrom an argument has realized
that, fuck, it was probablysmart to walk away because I
would have said some things thatwere not smart.

Jennifer Coronado (47:02):
Yeah, it's so interesting you say that
because this digital world thatwe live in now, like online
social media, all that, it kindof emphasizes the tilt right.

Tim Miller (47:12):
Yeah, you constantly want to react, react, react,
react, react, and it has thedouble whammy of being anonymous
most of the time.
I've never had a social mediaaccount, nor will I ever,
because, a I don't think anybodywants to know my opinion and, b

(47:34):
I don't want to get caught upin that.
You know, I don't want to getcaught up in that world of
trying to prove I'm right orprove someone else is wrong.

Jennifer Coronado (47:45):
It's just such a waste of time.
I mean, there's somethingyou've said about debating.
I love a good debate.
My husband my maiden name wasVan Riemsdyk and my husband
likes to call it I'm VanRiemsdyking because I will be
debating and my family will gettogether and have big debates
over things that we're allfundamentally agreeing on, but
we've had to find some anglewhere we disagree on it in some

(48:06):
way, shape or form.

Tim Miller (48:08):
Well, america seems to be in that frame of mind
where we haven't learned, we'veunlearned the process of healthy
debates, but I still, I stilllike it.
You know one of the authors,john Scalzi, who written a lot
of Love, death and Robots.
He lives in Ohio.
He doesn't necessarily believewhat a lot of his neighbors do,
but they're his neighbors andtheir kids are friends of his

(48:31):
kids and it creates a differentsort of world that you don't get
online.
One of the big things aboutZoom and the new work world,
which a lot of people like I donot.
I miss having the artistsaround all the time.
I miss those casualconversations that happen in the
kitchen while you're gettingcoffee.
Those are the things that makeyou relate to people and feel

(48:55):
close.
I would have a hard time firingsomeone who I saw every day and
who I ate lunch with every day,much harder than someone who
was just a face on.

Jennifer Coronado (49:04):
Zoom.

Tim Miller (49:05):
That's just monkey brain shit, but it's true, and
especially for our industry.
It saddens me because I feltwhen I got into this business it
was this exclusive club and Ifelt like this you know, I'd
been led into the temple tolearn its mysteries and all
these other people were aroundme.
You're not going to make anappointment to ask somebody a

(49:28):
question.
It's tough.
I don't think it's tenable.
Maybe that sounds a littleanachronistic and we'll just
find a different way of doing it.
But you know, if I had to spendthe first three years of my
time in this business working atmy mom's house instead of at a
studio around other people, Ithink it would have been a very
different experience.

Jennifer Coronado (49:47):
And also there's something there's.
People can be a pain, but theycan also be fun and, like you,
can laugh about things and it'sorganic.
One of my pet peeves is beingin a call and it's like, all
right, let me click the digital,raise my hand and you wait to
get called on.

Tim Miller (50:04):
That's not the way we were made.
I'm hoping that it doesn't last.

Jennifer Coronado (50:08):
I do think that we have found that, like
people come back more when theyactually run into people that
they know and they're like oh,oh, yeah, you, I like you, you
know, yeah, it's a messy.
It's a messy business right now, man.

Tim Miller (50:25):
It is, and who knows where it will be.

Jennifer Coronado (50:29):
That's the mess of it, right.

Tim Miller (50:32):
Or the joy of it.
I do know one thing I thinkwhere Blur is trying to go is
creating more of our own content, which everybody will say.
But I think that there's somuch churn in the studio system
and so much fear that I reallyfeel like the way to get things
done is to find things that aregreat and to find the money to

(50:56):
make it outside the studiosystem, so you're not beholden
to an executive that may notwant to stick their neck out or
they may change jobs next week.
There's so many reasons to sayno when you're inside the studio
system.
If I can make a movie for $50million, I might be able to find

(51:16):
that and then sell it to them.
They need the content, butthey're afraid to make it.

Jennifer Coronado (51:22):
Yeah, it has to be less their risk, I think.
And I think probably one oftheir biggest challenges
watching the market is everybodywants the studios to be tech
companies, but they're not andthey're not going to make that
revenue, and so the marketpunishes them for that.

Tim Miller (51:40):
Yeah, and why can't we just be satisfied with a
reasonable return on ourinvestment?

Jennifer Coronado (51:46):
I totally agree.
There's a finite amount ofgrowth that you get in any
industry, because you run out ofpeople eventually.

Tim Miller (51:52):
It was interesting when somebody finally explained
sort of the logic behind thetentpole trend, like why do they
only do tentpoles?
And when you look at the mathyou go okay.
Well, because no amount ofsmall movies is going to make
enough money and you have to dothe tentpoles and even if some
of them fail, the ones thatsucceed make far more money than

(52:15):
any number of low andmid-budget, unless you get some
kind of you know lottery ticketone, like some of the smaller
horror movies that are made for,or deadpool for that matter.
But you know what?
What was successful aboutdeadpool in part was that I made
it for what was a fairlyreasonable budget.

(52:37):
I've been supremely lucky in mylife.
There is not a luckier nerd onthe planet, and I include my
failures in that, you know,because if you win all the time,
that doesn't make you a goodperson, or I don't consider
myself a good person, but itdoesn't make you an interesting
person and it doesn't teach youanything.
So I don't regret my failureseither.
I'm not.

(52:59):
I'm never the smartest personin the room, and I've come to
accept that when you work withguys like Fincher and Cameron,
you just go fuck it.
I'm never going to be that goodand that's okay, better than
most people.

Jennifer Coronado (53:17):
Well, that's because you're a creative, so
thank you for sharing your timewith us today.

Tim Miller (53:20):
Thank you very much.

Jennifer Coronado (53:23):
Thank you for listening to Everyone Is.
Everyone Is is produced andedited by Chris Hawkinson,
executive producer is AaronDussault, music by Doug Infinite
.
Our logo and graphic design isby Harrison Parker and I am Jen
Coronado.
Everyone Is is a slightlydisappointed productions
production dropping every otherThursday.
Wherever podcasts are available, make sure to rate and review,

(53:45):
and maybe even like andsubscribe.
Thank you for listening.