The Business Case for Paranoia: Best-Of Cargo Crime & Fraud Prevention

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Blythe Brumleve (00:37):
Blythe, welcome back into another episode of
everything is logistics, apodcast for the thinkers and
freight. I am your host, BlytheMilligan, and we are proudly
presented by SPI logisticstoday, we're cutting through the
noise, and we're bringing you abest of compilation that tackles
the single most requested topicin our community, and that is

(00:59):
cargo crime and freight fraud.
That's right, this isn't yourgranddad's truck stop pilferage
anymore. We're talking about amulti billion dollar globally
surging problem, which is asophisticated, evolving battle
against bad actors usingeverything from Ai voice cloning
to hacked carrier emails, all tosteal your high value freight.
To understand this landscape,we're pulling together the most

(01:20):
critical insights from ourconversations with industry
heavyweights such as ReedClemens from Highway, Jonathan
Ryan from overhaul, Mark andshiv from SPI logistics fraud
department, and then also ourfavorite freight friend, Grace
Sharkey, we are covering how thefraud game has changed, the new
technology being used bycriminals and the good guys, the
early warning signs you need tolook for and the non negotiable

(01:43):
vetting processes you mustadopt, this is pure actionable
intelligence from the frontlines. So buckle up, because if
you're booking freight, you'removing freight, or you're paying
for freight, you need to hearthis. Let's dive into the modern
state of cargo crime. GraceSharkey is back from
Freightways, and we're going totalk about the state of cargo

(02:04):
crime in a recent poll that weconducted on Twitter. Very
scientific. It's on my personalTwitter account, cargo crime was
the top result of the topicsthat people want to hear more
about, and it's one of thosetopics that I think the industry
can't get enough of right now.
It was a big topic at the recentfreight waves at three

(02:25):
conference that you justattended, just I want to give a
couple key facts before we kindof dive into it. And it's sort
of the state of cargo crimeoverall. And so a couple of
these key facts is that theeconomic impact is global losses
amount to billions, billionsannually in losses. It leads to
higher insurance premiums andsecurity costs. The next key

(02:46):
fact is that it causes supplychain disruption, which, of
course, all of us are veryfamiliar with. And it causes
delays and stock shortages.
Damages customer trust and brandreputation. And then the common
types of cargo crime are theftfrom vehicles and facilities.
The goods are actually stolenfrom the trucks and warehouses
and reports. Another type ofcargo crime is hijackings, where
vehicles are forcibly taken overto steal the cargo. Then there's

(03:09):
also fraudulent pickups, the useof fake documents or identities
to illegally collect cargo. Andthen the cyber crime aspect,
which is hacking logisticsystems to manipulate the
shipment information. Little bitof historical context, because
why not. But in ancient times,bandits and pirates targeted
trade routes to conduct theircargo crime activities. Then

(03:32):
during the IndustrialRevolution, there was a rise in
cargo theft with expandedrailroads and shipping, and then
in the 20th century, criminalshave adapted to containerization
and the globalization of tradeusing those different technology
solutions. So Grace, you werejust at f3 there was, I think
highway took the number oneoverall spot, which they help
prevent types of freight fraud.

(03:56):
So do you think that this wasfreight fraud or cargo crime. Do
you think that that was sort ofthe, I guess, the consistency of
what makes up the top 25 infreight tech right now? Or is
it, you know, just cargo crimeor freight fraud prevention is
kind of coming into its own.
Would you say

Grace Sharkey (04:15):
no, I think it's becoming more I think
technology, in a way, has helpedit come almost surface a little
bit more, right? Like realizing,okay, there's ways for us to to
track these individuals, likethe fact that not only are they
using cyber security against us,now we can start to actually

(04:37):
kind of track this stuff andspeak up. I think that's part of
it too. People are actuallyspeaking up about these losses
because they are high. I mean,it was in 2021 or 22 the average
loss during these crimes is likeover $200,000 so, I mean, that's
depending on what insurancecovers. Like that could be a
huge hit for participants in thesupply chain as well, let alone

(05:01):
just the loss of the shipper inparticular. So I think we're
just seeing more and more inthese values getting higher and
higher. Right? We see inflation.
Inflation is going to mean thatalso the cargo is worth more,
and it's just becoming a biggerdeal. And what's interesting, I
will say about like the highwaymaking that number one spot is
like highway is trying to get usback to a point where we can
just start to book carriers andnot be afraid of what could

(05:23):
potentially happen. Right forthem. I was speaking with with
Michael Caine at the event. It'slike he, I don't want to say he
doesn't like the the the fraudaspect. Of how highway is
presented. But for him, it'sit's like, the reason that
highway exists is to move onfrom that conversation, so the
industry can get to a pointwhere it's like these, these

(05:46):
mishaps are not happening asfrequently because technology
has vetted most of these, these,these losers out. If that makes
sense, it's kind of likesomething that Amazon works on,
right, like making sure there'snot these third party individual
sellers who are selling crap orjust fake goods. So can we

(06:07):
improve so that every person whopurchases something off Amazon
doesn't also have to checkreviews to make sure the product
is good as well. So that gets meexcited that it's, it's that
they're looking to kind of movepast that discussion. But in
general, we'll get into thistoo. I think the the 25 list

(06:27):
shows just like issues thatwe're, we're getting through as
an industry as well this pastyear. That's, that's
fascinating. It's, I actuallywant to be in the timing of this
episode, throw some some extraThanksgiving stats your way.
Shout out to cargo net, who cameout with statistics for lost
value during the week ofThanksgiving. So for them, this

(06:48):
will be the Tuesday review oflast year, Tuesday to the Monday
after Thanksgiving. Last year,we had a total loss value of
over $7.83 million in product,with the average loss being
$159,000 biggest states to toexperience that was California
by landslide, then Illinois andTexas with over 174 theft

(07:10):
reports. With food and beverageactually being the biggest
commodity type than householdgoods and electronics. So this
week is the this is the thiscould be the Christmas week for
all those fraudsters throughoutthe next couple of days as well,
going into next week too. And sofor everyone out there booking

(07:33):
stuff for over the weekend,clearly, make sure you're using
good carriers, since thisepisode is coming out
afterwards, same thing over theChristmas weeks, you want to
make sure good, good carriersare moving that stuff,
especially if you're movingthings that potentially will be
gifts or electronics, right?
Like that stuff is going to bereally, really keen to watch.

(07:55):
Make sure drivers are areparking in good places that
aren't getting themselves intosketchy parking situations, and
that stuff's getting delivered,okay, too. But it's definitely a
problem, and it's it's not evenjust like a truck problem. We're
seeing it in retail as well,with with shrinkage numbers like
representing a lot of that loss,warehouse to warehouse, right?

(08:18):
Just things being either lost ortaken off pallets. So there's so
many different ways that we'reseeing this type of crime. Cyber
security is another one, and Ithink that's a big part of it
too. It's just becoming so likesophisticated in the avenues
that that these fraudsters aretaking, that we have to be
creative as an industry to alsostop it.

Is it something that with a lot of these
precautions? Are you taking thesame precautions this month or
during the holidays as you arethe rest of the year? Or is it
because it is peak season andyou're doing so much more volume
that sometimes, you know, justhuman nature, you're kind of,
maybe skipping a few of those. Iguess prevention strategies is

(09:05):
that, is that maybe what'shappening more of

I would say so, I mean, I think if you're, let's
say you're, if you're movingtruckloads throughout the year
for Samsung. I mean, that wouldbe the type of fray I would
watch, probably with the samecaution, every single year just
because, or every single daybecause it is high value and
things that people are going tolove to take off a truck. But I
think over the next couple ofweeks, just knowing that we're

(09:30):
going to see high volumes offoods and household goods moving
around the country, it'ssomething that people should be
considering more of and I thinkwith that too is just clearly
like the locations that driversare really stopping at is a big
one. I would be more concernedwith, you know, a truck stop and

(09:52):
a weird part of town during thistime of the year than than just
in a random March date orsomething like that, right? So
it does depend. I think ifyou're moving that high value
stuff, you probably clearlyshould be focused on this all
year round. But just knowingthat, you know it's it's like,

(10:12):
for instance, a couple of yearsago, we lost a lot of power here
in Lansing, Michigan. And forme, I wouldn't normally be
nervous on not having power, butwhen I know that everyone around
me knows that I probably havegifts underneath my tree, then
I'm a little bit more concernedwithout having power. So I think
it's just a little bit of that,right? It's like, okay, we know

(10:34):
that stores are going to bestocking up. We know that really
good. Toys and things that arepopular are going to be coming
to these stores. How do we getour hands on them?

And I would imagine, what does it? Can a TMS
in, like a out of the box. TMShelp prevent freight fraud or
some of these situations fromhappening. I know Thai software,
you know, has integrationpartners with Highway, with, you
know, a couple of other othervendors. But I'm curious as to

(11:03):
what maybe like a tech stacklooks like for a modern
brokerage to prevent as much aspossible.

I would say a lot of the bigger players, larger
volume participants, I've heardare using pretty much everything
they can get their hands on,because they all do stuff a
little bit differently, right?
Like, I think highway is alittle bit more of, kind of
almost, sort of like abackground check of who you're
using today, almost like, forme, like highway feels a little

(11:34):
bit more like a credit check, ifthat makes sense,

right into their VIN number, I believe,
right?

Yes, yeah. So it's like, more of like the
history this establishmentbehind the company you're using,
where like and offering likeverified carrier fronts over
there, right? That one is almostmore of like a of like a plaid
for like, banking services,right? It's like verifying that
yes, that account is yours, oryes that vid number and that

(12:04):
driver are are together, right?
So I think with that being said,people are kind of are being
creative and how they're usingthe different products based on
what they're good at doing andand what they're showcasing as
well, I would say, for thesmaller players, clearly
highway, I think would be a goodone for them to look into. But I
also just think, in general, howyou're training individuals,

(12:28):
like, if you're a really smallbrokerage and you're like, I
can't afford any of these tools.
I mean, I get it. The market'sbeen where it's been at. Like,
if you're using carrier 411, andjust creating really good
operations that are being heldto a standard. There's ways that
you can, of course, I thinkbetter protect your your freight
as well, right? So before you'reif you're onboarding new

(12:51):
carrier, are you calling theinsurance company and making
sure that insurance is active?
That's something this technologycould do in a second, but it's
also something that takes acouple of minutes, that, again,
probably is worth the riskseeing that you're a small
brokerage and probably can'ttake $150,000 loss that
potentially isn't covered,right? So just being like aware
of what is in your system, whatwhat information is there,

(13:16):
verifying that also, like atthis, you can easily humans,
right? We can watch for morespam emails. When you're getting
truck lists over, are youchecking to see if it says it's
universal truckload, that theemail isn't like, USA dot
universal truckload.com, orsomething like that, right? Like
a little off to where you'relike, okay, is this the person I

(13:37):
think I'm talking to? So I thinkeven for the smaller players out
there, it's not so much of likehaving to invest in this
technology today. But what areyou doing, just in your
operations, to create a culturethat's looking to mitigate more
fraud within your your fourwalls as well, right? So I would
say you're right. Most TMS atleast have integrations into

(14:01):
these systems, or are working onsome really great integrations
with some of those legacyproviders. But worst case, on a
human level, I think there'sdiscussions that should be
happening across the board at abrokerage of any size, just
because that, at the end of theday, that human element, I
think, is huge, right? Likebeing able to see some of these,
see those issues, and say, Youknow what, maybe, maybe I

(14:25):
shouldn't buy my CEO 15 giftcards. And, I mean, he doesn't
want maybe that email looks alittle suspicious. Yeah,
exactly. Oh, I haven't heardfrom Craig fuller ever via text
message, but now he wants me toto buy him 30 gift cards from
Home Depot. Like, well, maybeI'll, I'll ask, I'll call, like,

(14:45):
a quick phone call before I dothat.

But I remember I so I I've worked at a couple
different brokerages, and so onethat I worked at right before I
started up Brumleve brands, Iwas in charge of carrier
relations, and I was taught by abroker on how to do it. I never
asked any of these questions. Itwas them just sending me what

(15:09):
the carrier information was. Ichecked carrier forward one just
to make sure that they had aprofile on there, and if they
had a profile on there, theywere immediately added to the
system like there were no checksand balances that were being
done. Frankly, because I did notknow that I had to do all of
these things. I'm pretty sure itwas probably just a broker
trying to, you know, get theircarrier approved as soon as

(15:32):
possible, and didn't want totrain me on what, you know, the
fraud that made. Be looked like,but I think that that was maybe
also a different time, you knowthis, I'm talking like six or
seven years ago, so this isdefinitely a while ago, and I
don't think any of these toolsreally existed, or even, you
know, fraud, to this extent,existed. So it's, I think it's a

(15:54):
good example of how thisindustry has evolved so rapidly
because of how criminals haveevolved so rapidly and that they
are using these digital systems.
And I, when I say digitalsystems, I mean, you know, a
fake website, a fake emailaddress, or not even like a fake
email addresses, but there's,there was one, like fake news

(16:14):
site that was created to lookexactly like the Guardian's
website, except when they madethe website, it was like the U
of spelling out Guardian was theLatin version of spelling out
Guardian, and so you wouldn'tcatch it if you didn't know that
that it had the little you know,symbol on the top of it. And so

(16:36):
it was built to look exactlylike the Guardian, and even in
the domain name, the emailaddress. And so these fraudsters
are getting very sophisticated.
So if you're not closely payingattention, if it's happening,
you know, in this area of theworld, it only makes sense that
it's going to happen. You know,to to your area of the world,

(16:58):
meaning your business, how youoperate it. And for a lot of
these, I guess, slower to adopttechnology industries, which I
would put freight in thatregard, I would put construction
in that regard, where they'retrying to adopt new technology,
especially over the last fiveyears, but it is still very much

(17:19):
an older industry, like a legacyindustry, and so for a lot of
folks, it's tough for them toevolve. It's tough for them to
change, but you're going to haveto it's, it's, it's the the way
that business goes. You have toevolve, especially in the the
digital world we live in.

Well, I think there's a special that Oprah did
on AI a couple, maybe a month ortwo ago. And one big thing I
took from that, that I felt likerelated to this industry, is
like, especially when it comesto AI tools and things of that
nature. AI is like one of thosetechnologies, one of the only
technologies that have come tofruition or become mainstream,

(17:56):
but have, like, beat beats theconsumer to regulation. So,
like, the government hasn't beenable to regulate the technology
as as quickly as it's becomingpopular, right? And I think we
kind of see that in freight aswell, where it's like this, this

(18:18):
fraud has happened so quicklythrough the technology that
we're using that now we'reseeing the FMCSA kind of respond
to the to all of this, theseissues after the fact, which
makes it really messy and almostslower to to resolve Some of
this crime, compared to beingmaybe responsive to the site

(18:40):
cyber security issues, right?
Like, for instance, like youbefore, you could use a online
address right to to registeryour truck. Now, I clearly that
was never thought about in amore digital world, but now
we're seeing them say, you know,you have to come on site, and it
has to be a physical location inorder to register for us. So

(19:02):
they're being a little bitreactive to it, which clearly
isn't helping it. But again, Idon't think anyone would have
expected to see technologyalmost explode at the percentage
point that it did right Excel upto the point that we're at now.
So it's going to be interestingto watch. I think, clearly, I
don't, I don't think we're goingto go into 25 and people ignore

(19:25):
the freight fraud type of orfreight mitigation technology
that's out there. But ingeneral, I think something we'll
talk about too, is like, I justthink we're going to see a lot
of action between techcompanies, maybe merging
together who have similar goals,but could, could work better
provide a better experience forusers, if, if together instead

(19:49):
of apart.

So I remember on a I think we did an episode
about a year ago on coveringcargo crime. And at that time, a
lot of food goods and drinkswere being stolen, and that was
what was being targeted by thesecriminal organizations. And it
was making it really, reallytough for, you know, prosecutors

(20:12):
or investigators to find out whowas conducting this because for
those commodities in particular,the evidence is gone, and it's
they drink it or they eat it,and so it just goes like that,
where, like, I think it was anorder of pistachios, where it
was, like, a million dollars, itmay be more than that, of
pistachios that were stolen, andyou can never track that down,

(20:34):
because there is no, like,specific barcode. Whereas
something like electronics, or,you know, I think it's all on
this list. So electronics,pharmaceuticals, apparel and
other consumer goods are highrisk items, but they also have a
high, a higher recovery than,say, some of these like
perishable items. So I thoughtthat that was interesting, too.

(20:57):
And then I think it's not a USproblem yet, or it's not
happening in the US system yet.
But there was one company that Iwas talking to specifically
about this, and they have, like,insurance monitoring, and they,
I think they're, I believethey're global, and so in the
South America, they, I wasasking, what's the difference

(21:18):
between, like, cargo crime inthe US versus cargo crime in
other countries? And hementioned that in Brazil, that
for a lot of these fraudactivities that happen, these
kids are being targeted in likemiddle and high school, and so
they're being recruited at sucha young age that, hey, we're
gonna, we're gonna, you know,give you some money. We, you

(21:39):
know, they start becomingfriends with them, or making
them feel like they're friendswith them in middle school and
in high school. And so then thatway, they've kind of coaxed them
into this friendly relationship.
And then they pay for them tostart working in logistics,
working at ports. And thenthat's their in and then that's

(21:59):
how they get into thesedifferent bigger organizations,
is that they almost like arerecruiting or hiring spies from
a very young age. And that's howthey get into the system in
Brazil versus in the US, whereit's much more just highly
targeted locations such as theport, such as, I think we've all
working in freight. We've allseen those that footage of, you

(22:21):
know, the trains coming out fromthe Port of LA or the Port of
Long Beach, and, you know, thethe trains are so slow moving,
or they just kind of stay there,and you can willingly just walk
up and, you know, unlock a carton a train. I think that's the
right phrase for it. I don'tknow what the right phrase is,
but you guys know what I'mtalking about. Yeah, free car,
yes, yes, a car, not a cart, butthey'll just open it up, and

(22:44):
there's all these boxes justthrown everywhere, just people
just opening it up and openingup people's packages and taking
what they want, and so thatthat's a little bit of, I guess,
of a cultural difference is thatit's much more targeted in
specific areas, like warehousesand ports, versus in Brazil,
what they've seen in their datais that they're almost
recruiting people at a veryyoung age. And, you know, I

(23:09):
don't want to say seducing them,maybe like molding them in a way
that they're going to eventuallywork for them. Grooming now,
grooming them. Yeah, groomingthem for when they do go work
for these bigger logisticscompanies that they already have
an in. And so I just find all ofthis, like endlessly fascinating
about not just the fraudprevention, but what are you

(23:32):
monitoring that's going on indifferent countries, and how
that's different. Like Mexicandrivers, for example, they are
told, like, don't drive at nightand don't pull over on the side
of the road. Like you, you makesure you are fueled up and ready
to go whenever you have yourshipment, and you do not stop,
you do not pull over, you keepgoing. And so that's another

(23:54):
difference, of like, a differentarea of the world, and how
they're trying to combat it, orthey're trying to prevent it
from happening. And so just,it's overall interesting. And so
anything else you think isimportant to bring up about
cargo crime?

I just, I think, well, clearly, you know, we
started a new newsletter here atfreightwaves on it, so you guys
can check that out. If you go tofreightwaves.com click on
newsletters, you'll see fraudwatch on there as well, and I'll
share a link with you Blythe forthat. But it's, it's, if we put
out an article on it, it goesbonkers. It's, it's what's on

(24:29):
everyone's mind. And I thinkit's because it's just so it's
so broad, right on what exactlythat fraud is. I mean, it can be
anything from poor businessdecisions, right? It can be
anything from that to stealingcargo to retail fraud. And so I
think, because it's just so manyavenues and ways of committing

(24:53):
the crime, again, that kind ofgoes towards why it's going to
be so hard to stop too. And Ithink another part of it too is
just like we everyone who's beenin the industry knows the checks
and balances that would need tobe done in order to fully stop
it. And with that, is also alengthy discussion on, you know,

(25:15):
how operations need to changeand how much, almost like,
companies need to be bookingshipments in a different manner.
So with that big of a changeissue needed in order to stop
it, or at least, you know, haltit where it's at, I think that's
why it's such a talk of a of thetown, because people just, not
only how do we fix it, but like,where these. Problems. Where's

(25:37):
my risk, and how do we as anentity, prepare ourselves for
that risk as well?

All great points before we close out the
topic, I wanted to bring thisimage up on the screen. What
happened in India where methsees from a Mirena mese boat
cost more than the aircraftcarrier V grant. It was built at
a cost of $2.49 billion so themet that they seized from this

(26:05):
shipment was worth more than thecarrier that it was built with.
And we're talking about streetvalue here for the drug not
necessarily. There's a debategoing on in the Reddit comments.
First one is the first commentthey said, Damn, that's a lot of
missing teeth, referring to theenormous amount of meth that was
caught on this boat. I mean, ifyou're just listening to the

(26:25):
show it, what would you say?
123448, I'm bad at math, but Iwould say probably like 100
looks like cement bags full ofmeth, which is a lot of it's a
lot of myth, but there was adebate going on in the comments
about, you know, what are weplace these values of, and that
when cargo crime happens likethis, are we attributing value

(26:48):
of the wholesale value, or arewe attributing the retail value?
So there's a little bit, Ithink, of gamesmanship going on
with police departments andthings

like that, and meth is different, because it's
like, you're not gonna, ifsomeone steals your math, you
know, you're not gonna reportthat. Yeah, the police, you
know. But I it's funny you bringthat up, because most insurance
companies don't cover theproduct value right after the
selling, the selling value,right? They'll for them, it's,
how much does it cost toactually make as a unit? So I

(27:25):
used to get into that argumentall the time, especially, like
moving a lot of steel and thingslike that. If that, if ever got
wet, you know, it's they'dalways want, well, I was going
to sell it for this, so that'sour loss. It's like, no, that's,
it's not what you're selling itfor. It's for what it's actually
valued at at that moment, interms of just like being a

(27:45):
product. So yeah, sometimesyou're gonna even lose that
margin too, which makes the losseven more heavy.

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(28:15):
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(28:36):
to sign up for a demo. You Ijust, I still wonder why we
cannot put, like an apple tagequivalent into palettes like,
wouldn't this solve a lot ofissues?

I think, well, one would they find the apple
tag? I think it's a big one atsome point, it would solve a lot
of issues. I mean, it's, it'svisibility issues too, yeah, I
think I would, I would assumeit's probably a little bit of
just, like time, and then, like,just, you know, hopefully there

(29:15):
are trackers and things likethat. I think there are. I mean,
I just wrote about a tivetracker that helped FBI with a
special case. So I think thereare tracking providers that
could help with this. But Ithink another part of the
problem is they're just sosophisticated that they know and
maybe to even look for those, orsense those out right. So that

(29:38):
could possibly be one. But a lotof this, too is, like on the
retail side, like just, youknow, someone grabbing boxes off
a pallet, so kind of stuff likethat, where you might not even a
tag, might not help you with it.
It's, it's kind of that, like inbetween stage that's not helpful
or more difficult to put yourfinger on. So again, that's

(29:59):
that's a cool part about allthis is, like, there's multiple
ways this can happen. I mean, itcould even be something as small
as, like, you take a load andthe carrier says, Hey, I need a
fuel advance in order to go pickup. And you send a fuel advance,
and then they never pick up,right? Like that. The Apple tax
not going to save you on thatone. So it's just it's so there

(30:19):
are situations I think tech likethat could help it, and I would
hope that most of thosecompanies are using some type of
tracker. But I think there'salso an element of like within
the booking process, within eventhe paperwork that's coming
through that that adds thatlittle spicy element. To it?

Yeah, I think it's definitely something that
it's very like, dependent on thetype of commodity. If it's a
bunch, you're shipping a load abunch of flat screen
televisions, then you'reprobably going to invest in a
lot of different Apple tax butto, I guess, to point to our
earlier conversation that youknow those typically have serial
numbers. They have barcodes onthem. So they're if they are

(30:58):
stolen, there's a high, a higherlikelihood that they could be
tracked back, versus like adrink shipment, where an apple
tag is just probably not worthit to add that kind of tracking
functionality or that kind ofvisibility into your shipment.
So there's a lot of things atplay, and hopefully the
combination of prevention,monitoring and then insurance in

(31:21):
case shit does happen, I thinkis probably going to be what the
the business case or the techstack looks like. And I don't
even know if that's necessarilytech, but it's like tech plus
human involvement.

Yeah, you know someone you probably should
invite on the show Andrew Smithfrom circle logistics that he
was a part of my secondnewsletter. I watched him speak
on how he was using bothcarrier, sure and happy robot to
eliminate those calls from evencoming into the business and

(31:56):
tracking those individuals andfiguring out who to do not use
within their system. And he gaveus a really detailed account of
not only how the technologyworks, but how he's implemented
it with his employees to makesure that, because you know, you
could have certain checks andbalances within the day, if your

(32:16):
employees are going to go aroundhim, it's like, pretty much
useless. So just creative,interesting incentives to make
sure the technology is beingused correctly, and then
executing those those planspurposefully, like has really
worked for him. So maybe someoneyou could have on the show too
to discuss it. But I think it'sa lot more than just like you

(32:38):
bought highway now it's fixed,but it's it's a problem. I
again, I think we go into thisnext year and we still are
having issues with it as well.

Yeah, you probably, I mean, given the
historical, you know,perspective, we're always going
to be facing this, criminals arealways going to be evolving, and
it's just a game of like playingcatch up with each other.
Welcome into another episode ofeverything is logistics, a
podcast for the thinkers infreight. I am Blythe Milligan.
We are proudly presented by SPIlogistics, and for this episode,

(33:11):
we're going to be talking aboutfreight fraud, because freight
fraud and cargo theft havesurged globally in recent years,
evolving from simple truck stopheights into sophisticated scams
that exploit digital toolsorganized cargo crime is hitting
record levels in North Americaand really across the world amid
a volatile economy. It's a $1billion problem annually and

(33:34):
climbing with ripple effects,costing businesses and consumers

(34:31):
an estimated 15 to $35 billioneach year. In this episode,
we're going to be welcoming inMark and shiv, a couple folks
from SBI logistics, to talkabout what they've been seeing
and how their agents areexperiencing in preventing and
battling the modern modern daycargo crime with a strong focus

(34:51):
on the carrier selectionprocess. So Marcus, Shiv, thanks
so much for joining us. Welcomeinto the show, and I guess let's
start Shiv with you first. Whatis your sort of role within SPI
Can you kind of give us, like ahigh level overview?

Unknown (35:08):
So high level, I would say, I definitely deal with
claims all the time. My title isOperations Manager. There was a
point I was like, just claimsupervisor, because I basically
got pulled into this role, andnow it's just gone into just
such a much busier role than itwas when I first started. It's
just crazy to see, but highlevel, definitely day to day

(35:31):
claims and distressed loadsituations is what I handle and
deal with. And then justoverseeing carrier vetting and
carrier onboarding,

that's going to be a fantastic resume in order
to battle this. Yeah, or not,battle this, I guess, combat
this, this problem of what we'refacing with freight fraud. And
then Mark, I've listened to acouple of interviews with you on
on Chris jolly's podcast. Shoutout to him, because you guys had
some great conversations. Canyou kind of give us that high
level overview of what your dayto day looks like at SPI Well,

(36:00):
sure.

Unknown (36:01):
So first of all, thanks for having me on. I really
appreciate it. Blythe, as far asmy title, my role here, I'm the
director of carrier procurement,and with that, comes with
several different facets of thejob, you know, reaching out to
carriers, trying to make surethat the carriers that we're
bringing on board are who theysay they are. They can meet the
criteria that we need. But thenalso kind of diving down in some

(36:23):
of our carrier tools and a lotof the tools that we use and we
actually put into our tech stackhere for, you know, our agents
and or. Potential agents thatwe're talking to incorporate
various fraud detection methods,spoofing verifications, things
like that. So I'll get in lineand talk to a lot of different

(36:43):
vendors and whatnot to make surethat they're offering matches
what what we want. And I'll takethat and work with our carrier
base and interagents, you know,to make sure that we're meeting
their needs and the needs of theindustry.

And as you know, I kind of was doing
research for this episode. Thatjust feels like there's so many
tools out there, because I did.
I did a very, very brief stintof carrier relations about a
decade ago before someone else,more responsible took over. You
know that that role andresponsibilities, but the extent
of it at that point was just,you know, let's see if the

(37:18):
carrier is active in carrier411, and then if they are good,
that's the setup. Process iscomplete. Let me get the carrier
packet, and we're good to go.
How has that and Mark, I'll staywith you for a second. How has
that process, I guess, evolvedover the last decade, where it's
not as simple as just going tocarry your 4011, anymore. You

(37:38):
have to utilize severaldifferent tools within that
vetting process.

Unknown (37:43):
Yeah, you know, it's not your dad's fraud process
anymore, right? So, and you hitthe nail on the head. I mean,
there's so many different piecesof technology and things out
there that, you know, we didn'thave, you know, many years ago,
or even a few years ago, thedays of just checking care 401,
are pretty much gone. You've gotdifferent vetting platforms that

(38:03):
have have introduced into themarket. You've got highway. You
got even our MIS they've steppedup their their offering. You've
got my carrier, packet carrier,sure, and the list goes on. But
you know, what we've seen is youcan't really bring everything
down to just one tool. You know,you kind of got to use a
combination of different toolsand different things to make it

(38:27):
as foolproof as possible. Theproblem is, once you think
you've got everything lockeddown and where it needs to be,
you know, the bad actors find away to exploit any weakness that
you have. And you know, if I cansince, since we're talking about
technology, a lot of times thetechnology that's created to
make it easier for us as threepls or whatnot, is, is actually,

(38:54):
is being used against us. Andone of the things I'll talk
about here, you know, becauseeverybody likes to tell AI, you
know, AI this, and AI that,right? And everybody talks about
AI, but, you know, here's thereality situation. They have
things out there that are calledVoice cloning technology, right
from AI, and I'll tell you,Blythe, some of this technology

(39:15):
is so far advanced that it needsbetween three to five seconds of
your voice pattern to replicateyour actual voice. And are
employing this, they're actuallyputting this in use. So if they
call a an agent, or they call abroker, and they get, you know,
hey, I'm calling about your loadfrom somewhere, somewhere, and

(39:37):
that agent or that broker says,Well, I don't have a load from
here to here. I've got to looknow, they've captured a lot of
voice, and they can put thattogether and from there, and
there have been that that that'shappened using that type of
technology. So technology isgood and bad, but it's not just
one tech stack anymore. You haveto mix it together, and that's

(39:57):
what we do here.

Yeah, definitely, I have had the
conversation with my parents onwe have to have some kind of
like a safe word for all of usto use the podcaster. You know,
I people could clone me, and,you know, 30 seconds having
access to video and audio andall of that. And the scams are
getting sophisticated, even forparents, where it sounds like

(40:21):
somebody is impersonating yourchild in order to get something
out of you. So I can onlyimagine of what it's being done
at scale in the commercialworld. Shiv, I'll go to you
what, maybe what, same question,what? I guess advances in sort
of the vetting process, or the,I guess the reassurance process.
Have you seen evolve in sort ofthe the carrier side of things?

Unknown (40:45):
I think a lot of it for us. Just like Mark said,
definitely not just looking at411, we have to use multiple
different platforms to look atit. We also have to really make
sure that we're not sharing thisinformation with other actors or
like carriers and things likethat. We can't just send
screenshots of all this stuff,because that's exactly how

(41:07):
people know. Like now the kindof technology we are, you know,
using in order to verify care asmuch as possible? So there's a
lot more rules in place fromwhen I started with SPF five
years ago, I would say one isverifying phone numbers,
verifying email addresses,making sure, even in our
internal system, we can't just,you know, send it to any email

(41:28):
address that is just given to.
Us over the phone, there's a lotmore verification and like each
step of the way. And I thinkeven you know, highway has to do
their part as well when it comesto that. But for us, it's
multiple different platforms.
It's not just just the one as itwas before. Yeah, I

think that it's just, it's almost like more
technology, more problems, butthen you still have to have sort
of that human aspect of itwhere. And I think Mark, with
one of your conversations withChris, you made a great point
along the lines of, you want to,I think you mentioned asking the
carrier on the phone what theweather is like, and while
you're talking to them, doing aGoogle search of what the

(42:11):
weather is like, where they'relocated, just to see if they're
if that's accurate. So itinvolves present day, more of
like a blend between thetechnology solutions, and then
also just a little bit of, youknow, instinctiveness.

Unknown (42:25):
Yeah, sure. It's anything you can do to kind of
introduce that. And a lot oftimes when you're talking just
through a normal flowconversation, hey, where are you
at right now? Talking about theweather. Another thing you can
do that I've used in the pasttoo, let's say, let's say you're
talking to the carrier lookingto pick up a load Cincinnati.
Well, hey, how did Bengals dolast night? Or, how did the Reds
do last night? Did you see thegame? I didn't check the game
where? And you start having thisconversations now. Ai again. You

(42:48):
know the way they're advancing.
It's quick to pull those thingsup. So there's different ways
you can say things. You know, itused to be back in the day when
you were really, really unsure.
Send me a picture of you holdingup a number in front of your
camp. But AI, you can go in andsay, Hey, type this and put this
there. AI still has a little bitof problems when it, when it's

(43:09):
trying to do fingers andwhatnot, but it's, it's evolving
very quickly, but those little,those little tactics you can get
to help out, I think, I thinkshipper, and this is maybe where
you're going to go a little bitmore too, is having the shipper
participate in some of the fraudand risk mitigation efforts is
key nowadays to where in thepast, and I say past several

(43:29):
years ago, that's kind offrowned upon, but now you really
gotta get the shippers involved.
They have to know who's pickingit up and and expect who's going
to pick it up as well.

Now, in the intro, we talked a little bit
about, or I mentioned brieflyabout how this is, you know, a
billion dollar problem, and it'sgrowing. It's costing, you know,
taxpayers, anywhere from 15 to30 billion I believe I'm curious
is, are we just talking aboutfreight fraud more and we're
more aware about it, or has thiskind of trends? Is it just more

(44:02):
symbolic to we're just spendingmore, there's more freight
movements. So of course, thingsare going to be happening more
like, what is, I guess, sort ofthe big picture view of freight
fraud?

Unknown (44:12):
Yeah, sure. So theft and freight fraud has has
definitely increased, yeah,obviously, with social media and
things like that, we're going tohear about it more. But when you
look at the report, number ofcargo thefts, things like that,
if you look at cargo, cargonets, information and data, it's
up significantly. You know, it'sup 40 something percent, 43%

(44:33):
year over year from last yearand then the year before that
was like 70 something percent.
So it's definitely, definitelyincreased. Yeah, here's another
thing too. You know, freighttheft used to just be straight
cargo theft, right, where it wasjust pilferage. Somebody breaks
into your truck at it at a lot,and they break and take, you
know, four or five packages outand they leave. It's not like

(44:53):
that anymore. The number onetype of cargo theft is actually
strategic, and that is basedupon, you know, technology, and
being able to perpetrate those,those thefts through, through
the use of technology, I mean,so that it's definitely up. And
when you look at some of theother different crimes, and
where it's happening is actuallyincreasing too. Obviously,

(45:15):
you've got the big states, yougot California, you got
Illinois, you got Texas and andFlorida. You have it as well.
But we're seeing a significantincrease in thefts and corridors
coming out of California, right?
If nothing else, thieves arevery good at their ROI Right? So
they steal, they steal thiscargo in California or

(45:37):
something. And you know, why isit increasing in the next state
over because that's the firstplace they can stop to get gas.
It's cheaper to get gas overthere. So it is increasing. I
mean, Shiv, I don't know ifyou're seeing it on your end. As
far as the number of incidents,yes, 100% and I think everything
is getting much more complicatedas well. When it comes to that
reasoning and a lot of it, Ithink the number one, one like

(46:00):
reasoning right now is hackedemail addresses, actual
carriers, legitimate carriers,and them having their email
addresses either actually hackedor supposedly hacked, but we're
actually sending recons to validemail addresses, and loads have
been getting stolen. And that'sthe really interesting part

(46:21):
right now. There's some sort ofstrategy that's going on when it
comes to that. And I think Ijust also the shipper, the
shipper, they. That Mark said isthat shippers not,
unfortunately, loading thecarriers that are actually
supposed to arrive there. Whenthe broker advises, which is
another thing we, you know, hadan issue with, they'll do their
due diligence, they take thelicense of the driver down,

(46:43):
they'll take down their MC andall of that. But there's some
sort of miscommunication when itcomes to Hey, broker said that
this is the carrier that'ssupposed to arrive, but they
don't check to see that thatcarrier actually arrived, and
then they load this legitimatecarrier, and then that
legitimate carrier was hired bya fraudulent broker to take it
to a warehouse somewhere. So Ithink that is one of the biggest

(47:05):
things we're seeing right now,too.
Unfortunately. Yeah, you know,to touch base on that some of
the things that I'm hearing fromsome of the people that talk to
in the industry, in theindustry, it's somebody who used
a dispatching service, or theyhad former dispatchers who would
work for them. So they haveaccess to a cares email, just,
you know, an at Gmail, publicdomain address, and then they

(47:26):
leave, right and then they go,they're a bad actor, and they
go, maybe working with anotherbad actor, and they still have
those, those loggingcredentials, right? And then
they monitor freight, and theysolicit freight, and then, if
they work out a load, negotiatethe ability to take a load.
What, what they're doing isinside the carrier's email
address. They're deleting those,those those emails. They'll put

(47:48):
a rule up and a 40 forward thoseemails to, oh, hey, if you get
an email from SBI, whatever, goahead and send that to John Doe
at Gmail and then delete thisemail. So a legitimate carrier
has no idea that that another,another entity is using their
email and then deleting theemails and forwarding it, right?

(48:11):
So, I mean, there's goodbusiness practices that need to
happen. So if somebody leavesthat carrier, they should change
their email address password,right? They should do, you know,
authentication through thephone. I mean, there's different
things they could and should doto protect themselves, but then
also to protect the industry asa whole, and we're not seeing

(48:32):
that in general. I mean, Idon't, I don't say everybody,
just in

general, it almost feels like this, you
know, it's a cat and mouse gamethat you're just, it just never
ends, and they're going tocontinuously get better, and
you're going to have to try tofigure out, I would have the
hardest time even trying tofigure out that someone is
receiving my emails and deletingthem, and I don't even know what
would be the first step to evenfigure out that process is or or

(48:58):
that potential fraud issue is,are there? What are those early
warning signs that maybesomething has happened?

Unknown (49:07):
Well, I what you can do is, is one, change your password
on a regular basis, right? Setup authentication where you when
you sign on, you have to sign onthrough your phone too. So you
got two places to do that,right? Another thing too is you
want to check your deletedfolder a lot of times, because
they'll just send it and they'llput it and let it stack up and
delete a folder, and then theydelete it that way. But I would

(49:28):
just be on a constant process ofchanging your password and
setting up it these, thesepublic domains. It's really,
it's really easy for that tohappen. So, you know, kind of
setting up your own email withyour own company name. It's
cheaper, it's more efficient todo it through, you know, at
Gmail or whatnot. So those arethings. So I would definitely

(49:49):
change my email on an ongoingbasis. Lot of times it's just a
former employee who hacked it,or they click a link. I'm sorry,
should have you.
Oh, yeah, no, I was gonna say Ithink also you should be able to
check to see where your emailslogged in from, or logged into,
what devices your email islogged into. So maybe, you know,
you delayed it a little bit.
Somebody left the company, butyou haven't changed your

(50:11):
password. If you do go changeyour password, maybe check to
see where was it last logged in?
Is it still logged into adifferent device? And then also
maybe check to see if there'srule set up. I'm not 100% sure
if that's something you cancheck, but I assume you can
check to see if there is aforwarding rule set up for
something specific, and deleteall of those. But that's kind of
like a thing in case, you know,you don't change it in time, or

(50:34):
you don't, yeah, I think afterdoing that, also do that due

diligence and Shiva. I'll stay with you for a
second. Is there any, I guessmaybe, like glaring commodities
that are being targeted forthese, you know, fraud efforts.

Unknown (50:51):
Honestly, there is, like, definitely in the
industry. For us, I think we'veseen it for several, several
things like we've seen We'veseen it with Legos, we've seen
it with protein powder. We'veseen it with olives. Like, for
us, I find that it's oftenthere's no like, specific thing.
And of course, like, you haveyour copper, you know you have

(51:12):
your you gotta be careful withsteel, things like that. But in
the industry, it is householditems and beverages, which is
what I believe, if I'm correct,mark the top commodity, targeted
commodities, right?
Absolutely, you know what'ssomething like. That it's, it
doesn't stay around very long,right? So if it's food or

(51:34):
commodity or something likethat, you know you're gonna,
you're gonna eat it, or you'regonna, you're gonna disperse it
through the network. So it's notgonna, it's not a durable good
that's gonna hang aroundforever,

yeah, because they have the serial numbers
attached to it, it's probablyeasier to trace, easier to
track, versus, you know,something like protein powder,
which would probably be goneand, you know, 30 days tops, or
removing the labels, there's no,you know, as far as I know,
there's no, like, you know, Idon't know VIN number for a
protein powder. That would justbe probably too complicated,

(52:05):
yeah.

Unknown (52:05):
And, you know, you get, you get different cartels
involved now, so it's, it's afull scale, you know, global
situation, you got differentcartels who will target certain
commodities. You know, maybethere's a cartel out of out of
Eastern Europe that, forwhatever reason, likes to target
copper loads, right? You know,maybe there's a cartel out of

(52:27):
India that likes to look at, youknow, household goods, and it's
just wherever they can get itfenced where they're used to
getting it fenced from. And itused to be in a day too, where
you could bust a cargo ring. Andit would take 678, months before
they got, you know, more peopleinvolved to do it. Now, when
they take down a cargo theftoperation you've got, they're

(52:50):
just flying in another group ofpeople are spinning up another
cell, in some cases, the nextday.

And is all this happening in the United States,
or is it a North Americaproblem? I mean, I know in in my
show notes, I had that it's aglobal issue, but I'm, I'm
curious as to if there'sanything that's, I guess,
isolated to the United States,or maybe there's some, some
varying case, or maybe it'sisolated to North America. What
are some of the, I guess, thelocation trends that we're

(53:17):
seeing?

Unknown (53:18):
Well, you're always having cargo theft worldwide.
There is a significant increasein North America, and I think
that's because, you know,there's, there's a lot of
freight moving in the UnitedStates, and also there's,
there's a lot more of aninfrastructure to report this.
But in Mexico, there's a lot oftheft that happens in Mexico.
And if thefts that happen inMexico or a lot more violent
than in the United States, it'shappening after the truck is

(53:40):
loaded. And you can go out, andyou can see these types of
things when you go to theseconferences and whatnot. You can
look them up as well. And theywill follow a truck down the
road, and they will box thetruck and pull it over. And it
used to be in a day, they wouldhave the drivers sit on the side
of the road while they empty outthe truck. Now it's easy for
them just to shoot the driver,no witnesses, and it's a scary

(54:02):
situation for these drivers inMexico. And there's a certain
corridor in Mexico where it's acrazy number. It's and this is,
don't go hold me to this number,but it's something like 40% of
the freight is, it's stolen.
It's, it's insane. You know,Scott Cornell is a very, very
keen individual. And if you, ifyou don't know Scott, you may
want to touch base with him. Imean, that guy, he's just a

(54:25):
phenomenal person, and he'llgive you the right numbers.
Yeah, oh yeah. Absolutely loves

now i shiv, I saw you. You nodding your your
head along with with that. Doyou have any, I guess, maybe war
stories to share with us of someincidences that have happened in
Mexico?

Unknown (54:42):
Well, that's what, exactly what Mark is talking
about. I remember seeing a videothat they showed at a conference
like, literally, where, youknow, these drivers go in and
they stop the truck and they're,like, shooting at the truck. So
that's what I does exactly. Thatprobably saw the same video,
because it was Scott Cornell'sconference, basically. But yes,

(55:04):
that's why I was like, yep,that's exactly what happens in
Mexico. Unfortunately, it'sreally scary. So I guess I at
least we're lucky in that sense.
But definitely, yeah,

because I, my first thought process goes to
like, well, how why would youeven become a truck driver in
Mexico? Like, what if this is,you know, if upwards of 40% of
all the freight is being stolenand your life is at risk?

Unknown (55:28):
Why in a specific corridor I want to classify
that, you know, right, butstill, yes, why would you run
that corridor?

Mean, the insurance costs have to be
insane for that route alone, Iwould think so. It's a lot of,
you know, additional maybe,like, you know, waterfall
effects that happen, you know,from one terrible incident that
happens after that and what insituations like that? What can
be done?

Unknown (55:55):
Anything, you know, something like that, I don't
think, well, you could havearmed transport that's going
with it. But a lot of times, youhave the cartel involved. And
there's listeners corruption allover the world. But in certain
situations, in certain areas,you you have cartel who in
working with local officials,right? And, and, you know,

(56:15):
there's agreements made, and youknow, we're, hey, listen, we're
going to pull over this manytrucks, and maybe there's
agreements where they don't doany harm to the driver, maybe
rough them up a little bit,right? There's a lot of things
happening. And I think there's,you. In Mexico, you have to, you
have to really look at thegovernments, and you have to

(56:38):
look at the cartel, and there'sa lot of corruption here in the
United States when it comes tocargo theft. How do you, how do
you prevent some of that stuff?
Well, that's, that's what we'retalking about here, betting with
the carrier, carrier havingsecurity, the shipper, knowing
who's coming in the loading, youknow, maybe, hey, ask for this
guy driver's license. In somecases, that can still be, still
be fake. You know, some of thevery sophisticated, I say

(57:00):
sophisticated, but, you know,maybe more aware. Maybe that's a
better term, more awareshippers, they'll put tracking
units inside the loads. We'vehad situations where a load was
stolen, and the tracking unitwas activated. Because these
tracking units are really nice,and they can tell you that, hey,
there's light now in the back ofthis, this truck, the doors

(57:20):
open, and the light sensor wentoff, and here's where it's
located, and it actually alertsthe authorities, and, you know,
we can recover some of thatfreight. And when you think
about it, these trackingdevices, they're fairly cheap,
you know, 36 bucks, 50 bucks,something like that, compared to
a $200,000load. Makes sense to me.

Makes a ton of sense. And I'm curious as it,
you know, we've been talking,you know, a little bit about
technology already. I'm curiousand maybe how some of these
fraudsters are using technology,you mentioned AI and sort of
voice cloning, you know, we'vetalked about email addresses.
I've heard of, you know, loadboards being a problem too. You
know, I think they say the bestfreight never makes it to a load

(58:02):
board. But sometimes, you know,you have to use a load board. So
what are maybe some of the techthat the fraudsters are using
that other, you know, thebrokers and the carriers can be
a little bit more cautious aboutor, or maybe do their their
double checking the shippers aswell.

Unknown (58:19):
Well, you mentioned load boards, right? So they
screen, scrape all these loadboards, and they say, okay, hey,
I have these loads going. Someof the, some of the tech that I
see, a lot happens, happening iswhere they send a link to
somebody it looks like maybe aload board. Do you have this
negative review? I mean, nobodyever wants to have a negative
like, what somebody's sayingsomething bad about us, right?

(58:39):
So, but by instinct, what is it?
And we click that link, and assoon as you click that link, you
may not even know, but then nowyou're infected with malware,
right? And we're fishing, andthey're gathering your data, and
the link comes in, and sometimesthe link will take you to a web
page that looks like the pagethat sent it to you. Enter in
your enter in your password,right? And then you enter in

(59:02):
your password, thinking that,okay, well, I gotta and now they
have your password. They mayhave access all your other
passwords. And you have, we havesome opportunity for for
disaster, right there. So as faras some of the malicious attack
would be the links, you know,spoofing. That's an old school
thing still works. There'stelephony solutions. We have
some telephony solutions inplace that will capture a spoof

(59:25):
number and block that out, rightso, you know, there's apps you
can get, and I could call you,and it would look like, you
know, maybe it looks like shivis calling you, but it's really
me, and then I can get, and getsome information that way. But
with, with, with some different

What was that phrase you used? It?

Unknown (59:43):
Telephony, telephony, telephony. It's, it's just a
general term to deal withanything that deals with a
telephone or anything like that.

Oh, interesting. I never heard that
word before. So you learnsomething, you learn something.
You know, I'm learning a lot inthis episode, Shiv, I'm
wondering, you know going to youfor a second, when, what take me
inside, sort of that, I guess,the the action, like war room,
whenever you know that fraud hashappened, or you suspect that

(01:00:10):
that fraud has happened? Whatare the steps being taken to, I
guess, get the freight back, toget insurance, involved law
enforcement. What does thatprocess look like, without
giving away too much to thecriminals?

Unknown (01:00:25):
Every situation is so different. And right now, as
soon as you ask me that I'mthinking of like three people
that I can think of in my headin terms of, like, there was,
you know, one where it was likea fraudulent CDL that was given,
it wasn't even a CDL. So we'recontacting anybody and everybody
that we can obviously, cargo netwe go to often, sometimes we do

(01:00:47):
reach out to Scott Cornell.
We've been in touch with, like,the California detectives. So
there's many, many differentparties. It's just dependent on
the situation and what we knowand who we're in touch with. So
for example, what Mark wasgetting at, where the shipper,
like, put in a little sensor, ora little thing in the in the
trailer, in their shipment. Andthis was when, you know, we kind

(01:01:09):
of had this clue that, oh, maybethe shipment is being stolen,
because now the driver is Mia.
And this one was actually agreat one, because we were able
to contact cargo net. But alsothe shipper contacted their
their contacts as well, and theywere able to cargo net was
there, and apparently there werechoppers there. And just all

(01:01:31):
sorts of parties that bustedthis warehouse, so it's really
dependent on the situation. Andof course, we're going after
insurance like we're contactingthe carriers, insurance company,
we're contacting carrier, andall of our contacts that we
have, as well as the localpolice from where it was picked
up. And unfortunately, in thatsense, because the local police

(01:01:52):
departments don't know too muchabout car theft. They're not
very like they don't know how tohandle it like this. Over the
weekend, I was working with adetective in California who, you
know himself, went inside thislocation, versus the police went
there. They just scoped thescene outside and they left.
They didn't actually do any any,you know, any digging, and they
didn't try and ask anybodyanything. So the problem becomes

(01:02:16):
that as well. So we're reallyjust contacting any and all
parties as much as we can to tryand figure out, find a lead. You
know, check online, run thesephone numbers online, check
these names, CDL names, likeit's, yeah, it's just a lot, but
every case is very, verydifferent and very interesting.

Blythe Brumleve (01:02:35):
It sounds like a full time job trying to do,
like, how and I think that that,you know, as I'm saying, that
it's almost like, Thank Godyou're, you know, a freight
agency for your freight agents,that they don't have to, I don't
say worry about this, becausethey they obviously have to
worry about it. But whensomething happens, I'm assuming

(01:02:57):
that they reach out to one ofyou two, and then that's when
the investigation kind ofstarts. And it's more, it's a an
extreme amount of value add tobe able to have a resource like
that, versus if you were just,you know, maybe like a smaller
brokerage trying to figure thisout on your own, trying to get
all the technology anddetectives involved. So it
sounds like you know that withthe freight agents, they're able

(01:03:17):
to call y'all immediately and beable to get y'all on it.

Unknown (01:03:24):
Yeah, yeah. We actually just had one of our shippers who
was telling us how much we'vedone for them, like no other
broker does as much like, timeand effort, and, you know, this
is unfortunately, possibly alost cause, we don't know yet,
but we're still trying, like,we're still talking to the
detective, we're still trying toget leads, we're still doing as
much as we can, and it's beenover, like, a month, and they're

(01:03:46):
just like, you know, there's noother broker like that would
have helped us as much as youguys are helping us. So that is
definitely a good it's a goodfeeling to hear that, but it
would be nice to have that winas well.

Marcus, I saw you shaking your head there, as
far as, like, you know, beingthat resource to your your
agents out there, you know,what? What does, I guess? What
does that sort of flow of actionlook like for the freight
agents, are they? Do theysuspect it? Is it? You know,
maybe you guys have an internalteam that's monitoring things,

(01:04:18):
and they can kind of shine alight on it for them. I almost
imagine, like the agent needs tokeep, like, a freight fraud tab
open. That's, you know, sevendifferent tools monitoring every
single load. Is, Am I overdramatizing this? If that's
awkward.

Unknown (01:04:32):
Okay, so this is a shameless plug for spite, by the
way. So one of the nice thingsthat that SPI has, and what they
do with their tech stack is theymake it they make life
incredibly easy with regards tofraud and risk mitigation for
the agents. We've got some toolsin our tech stack that, you

(01:04:54):
know, an agent can simply put inan MC number, and it runs
through almost instantaneously,runs through all of our our
algorithm algorithms, runsthrough everything that we have,
and come back and lets you know,hey, this carrier is good, or
hey, this carrier is a carerthat's posed some opportunities,

(01:05:14):
and we're not going to be ableto load them. So right up front,
you know, we're helping themidentify possible bad actors. So
that's key, and that's helped ustremendously. Now, when you get
a carrier on and you know, forwhatever reason, there is a bad
actor involved, and it's made itthrough the initial screening.
You know, what SBI has set up iswe have an internal notification

(01:05:37):
system and an agent sends itsince, basically an email into
this system and says, Hey, Ithink I have a problem. And then
from there, you know, shiftsteam, you know, they, they jump
all over it. And, you know, shewas going through it, she was
being a little humble. They'vegot a lot of different things
that they put together. And it'stogether. And it's, it's like,
boom, boom, boom, boom. It'slike clockwork. It just comes
right through and and they, theyhand, hold those agents through

(01:06:00):
that process. Call the carrier,ask him this. Call this. We'll
take care of this. We'll dothat. We do we as an SBI, we do
everything we possibly can tomake it as easy as possible for
the agent when it comes to asituation like that. Because,
listen, you know, it may maybethat agent is is never
encountered this type of asituation before, so we can

(01:06:22):
bring the full expertise to bearfor them.

No that, that definitely makes a lot of sense,
and it definitely a value addresource. Is that you take
advantage of a team that isworking on your side, and can
can be the trusted advisor thatyou need. And, you know, those
moments of panic, so I couldn'timagine, you know, what, what
they would go through duringthat process. So it sounds like

(01:06:46):
it's a little bit, you know, youhave a good reaction plan in
place when something happens.
What about some of the, I guess,the preventative ways that you
can, you know, try to prevent,you know, fraudsters or fraud
carriers, and, you know, doublebrokering, anything like that.
From my understanding, it comesdown to, like, a certain
checklist of your carrierselection. Can you maybe run

(01:07:07):
through, like, what does, whatdoes a good carrier look like in
spi's eyes?

Unknown (01:07:15):
Shiv, you want to take that? Yeah.
So for us, of course, similar towhat Mark said, like we have a
system in place, and there's abunch of different points that
that system pulls in terms ofthe carrier. Of course, we look
at them in highway to make surethey're a pass, which, you know,
basically, that's vetted throughour process and everything such

(01:07:36):
as that, but also to preventthis stuff, I think, to
reiterate, like, when it comesto email addresses, making sure
you're sending it to theverified email address, making
sure you've spoken to the personyou're not just and if they're
calling from, you know, a loadposting, hang up and call back
the actual number. Make sure theperson that's calling you,
because people aren't checkingthe phone number like this

(01:07:57):
happens to be, you know, similarto that email hacking. If they
call you from a random number,but they have hacked the
legitimate carriers emailaddress. Now they're telling
you, hey, I send it to theverified email address, but
they're receiving it on the backend, but that phone number is a
fraudulent phone number. So youhave to do your due diligence in
all those areas, which isemails, phone numbers, you know,

(01:08:19):
obviously checking 411, foradditional reports, and then it,
for us, it have to be a passinghighway if I've missed anything
mark, sorry. Yeah.
So a couple things I would say,as far as what, what classifies
as a, as a, as a good carrier? Ithink that was the question. You
know, I don't necessarily wantto look at it and say, Hey,

(01:08:41):
here's what's a good or badcarrier. I think I would just
look at a carrier and say,here's a care where there's
where there's less risk, right?
So some of the things that thatpop for us, for less risk, is
we, you know, we look at howlong have they had their
authority? You know, have theyhad it one day versus six
months? In some situations, welook at the insurance provider.
There are some insuranceproviders out there where we

(01:09:03):
would look at it and say, Youknow what? It's not necessarily
an insurance provider that wewould want to work with, right?
Versus, you know, somebody else.
Another thing that we would lookat is, have there been specific
changes on that carriersinformation? You know, that's
another red flag, you know,without getting too far down a

(01:09:24):
rabbit hole and, you know,giving up some of the secret
sauce, there are ways that thatcarriers bad actors can can
weasel in and and makethemselves appear as as somebody
that they're not. So there'ssome identifiers that we use in
our tech stack that pops thatright? You know, another thing
that we're looking at is, hey,is this carrier actively

(01:09:46):
tracking? Right? Do they have atracking history? Because our
technology, we link in withseveral different providers. You
know, I keep saying that, youknow, we link in with Highway,
with carrier Sure, with truckertools, with Project 44 with
macro point, and it goes downthe list, goes buyer B, and it
goes all down this list. So welook at, are they tracking?

(01:10:06):
Because then have they trackedregularly, right? You know, has
this carry around a specificLane before you know, if it's a
carrier that that has only neverran in Florida and are only
based in Florida, why are theylooking for a load in Alaska?
Right? Just, just something likethat, that's, that's kind of
odd. So, so there's differentflags that pop up. So again,
it's not necessarily a good or abad carrier, it's just carriers

(01:10:29):
where there's less risk.

Yeah, because I was just seeing a report earlier
today about you would think insort of the economic conditions
that that we find ourselves in,and rates are really low and
freight is slow, theopportunities are few and far
between for right now, but Ijust saw a report that even more
carriers are continuouslyentering the market despite all

(01:10:53):
of the downturn and that we'veseen. And so I sort of feel bad
for the folks that are comingonto the scene, and they're new
and, you know, they're hungryand they want to get to work,
but maybe there's a lot of thesehoops that they have to jump
through. I'm curious, because Iwould love to do this for, you
know, carrier shippers andagents out there, what are, sort
of, what are the ways that a newcarrier can make themselves

(01:11:19):
appear, or maybe not appear, butshow that they're valid, show
that they're real people, showthat they're just, you know,
good, honest, hard workingfolks. What? Maybe, what are
some of those signs outside ofbeing new that they can. Prove
that they're, you know, a good,good company to hire.

Unknown (01:11:33):
Oh, sure, shave. You want me to start? Yeah, you can
start. Okay, so,from my perspective, attend some
of these conferences, like abroker carrier Summit, right?
You attend that broker carrierSummit? I've met a plethora of
carriers at that summit, youknow, and if they're there,
they're serious about theirbusiness. It's something to be

(01:11:54):
said, okay, they're taking timeoff the road to be there. And,
you know, you can build thatrapport right away. I think
that's, that's a big thing, too.
Another thing that they can dois they can call you and, you
know, they call like a corporateprocurement office. I'm looking
for freight. How do I get setup? Instead of just calling off

(01:12:14):
of a post it load? I thinkthat's one thing. You know. I've
also seen it where they have acarrier who's within your
network, and they have thatcarrier call you and vouch for
them. I've had that just theother day. Hey, this guy just
started. He's starting up hiscompany. I'm very good friends
with him, and, you know thattype of rapport, and I've gotten
on a conference call just justthe other day with the with

(01:12:36):
these two carriers, and justkind of talk through the
process, right? But those are,those are big things that I see,
they can get on podcast, right?
Hey, Blythe, I'd really like tobe on your show. I'm a new
carrier. What do I do? That's agreat way to do it. So I think
that's key. It used to be in aday get a bunch of reviews, but
you can have aI fake some of thereviews and things like that.

(01:12:56):
But, you know, Chevrolet, yougot anything that I missed?
No, I think that's, that'spretty good. I mean, obviously
there are certain brokers thathave a specific, you know, they
won't onboard a carrier unlessthey've been active for six
months to a year for us at 60days, which isn't bad at all.
But I think yes, just like Marksaid, if you start, especially

(01:13:17):
if you start building that withone office as well within our
agency, and you run some loads,and then you build that
relationship, and that wouldhappen like within freight
freight brokerage, right? Youcan always try and reach out to
other brokers within ourbrokerage and see you can move
some other lanes. But if youbuild that relationship with,
you know, one agency within abrokerage, like that's something

(01:13:39):
to do that can help.

So it sounds like I need to have my own,
like, carrier vetting processfor podcast guests. So that's
maybe there's some kind of, likea highway or a carrier sure that
can help me with that in thefuture to just the carriers are
legit before they come on theshow.

Unknown (01:13:56):
Another shameless plug for carriers here, or
Cassandra's going to love me,right? So, so she's got a really
nice platform for carriers,because it didn't exist before,
where they can go in and theycan type in a MC for a broker or
for an agent, right? And see, sothat's a good way for carriers
not to get scammed, right?
Because when you think about it,the these carriers are a lot of
people are injured, but they'rea true victim. Somebody stole

(01:14:17):
their identity. Now they're heldliable, and now what are they
going to do? You know? So yougot to look at it from that
perspective as well, too. Soit's not just a, yeah, it's not
just a broker and a shippersituation. You have legitimate
carriers who are victims, and alot of these, a lot of these
thefts, what happens is theythese bad actors will steal

(01:14:39):
load, and they'll take it from ashipper, and they'll rent time
at a warehouse, and, you know,they're paying cash. They got
the load here. It's coming in.
They're changing the paperworkinstead of TVs, it just says
electronics, and then shippingout the other side to a
legitimate carrier who justthinks and they are just picking

(01:15:00):
up a loan from one warehouse oneto another. Maybe they're paid,
maybe they're not.

Oh, that's so tragic. Because, I mean, I hate
to say like, oh, a big companycan kind of survive that. But
you know a smaller company, 90%of you know all the trucks on
the road, or seven carry, orseven trucks or less. And so one
incident is probably bankruptcyfor that carrier, for that
company. And so that that'sreally tragic is carrier, sure

(01:15:27):
the only company that helps? Youknow carriers deal with
potential broker fraud.

Unknown (01:15:33):
Well, there's some other companies I know that are
building tools for it, I thinkhighways in the process of
building something for that, andthat piece as well. I don't know
if it's actually released yet,but you know, when I go to the
some of these events and stuff,and I know Cassandra, I mean,
her platform does, does a prettygood job vetting that out.

Now, shifting gears a little bit because we
have seen, you know, well,actually, I kind of want to stay
with that for a minute, becausethere has been somewhat of a
increase in fraud focusedconferences within our industry.
I'm curious as to, you know,what happens maybe at some of
these fraud conferences, youknow, is what kind of topics are

(01:16:12):
being discussed there thatyou're taking back to the
office. Chevelle, I'll go to youfor this one, that you're going
to these conferences and, youknow, learning things there,
what kind of topics are beingdiscussed there that you kind of
take back to your learnings?

Unknown (01:16:28):
I think there's a lot, I mean, for us. Especially a lot
of it that we come back with areeither contacts. So that's the
kind of way that we got in touchwith like the detective and
things like that, or evenwebsites where you can use, you
know, these, these tools toeither search phone numbers or,
you know, fraudulent emails,things like that. I know we come

(01:16:49):
back with a lot of email, I'msorry, those kind of like techno
technology resources as well as,I would say, connections, when
it comes to like in theindustry, somebody who can help
us out when these thefts occur,that's a huge thing. But the
topics, I would say, it's a lotof that, as well as insurance
and what insurance providers aregood and what to look for in

(01:17:11):
cares, you know, insurancecertificates, or when vetting
these carriers, what's what toalso look for? There's so much,
because these conferences are,you know, a couple of days long,
and there's so many differentkinds of sessions, like even
insurance policies, like I said,when it comes to what is going
to be covered, what kind ofexclusions exist, what to kind
of watch out for what carriershould watch out for as well.

(01:17:35):
There's a lot I'm just trying todrawing a blink, but we come
back with so much and so manystories too, right? We're just
kind of like, okay, well, howdid you guys combat that? Or how
did you guys recover that cargo?
And that gives us ideas on otherthings to do in the next time,
or even recovering load, likeit's not just fraud, but even
recovering loads, and kind ofknowing what we have the right

(01:17:56):
to do as a freight broker andhow we can go about talking to
the police or talking to, youknow, insurance companies or
tote facilities when things likethis occur. So there's just a
huge, huge array of things, Ithink, that are discussed at
these conferences.

Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, you would just
think that there would be, youknow, oh, just get a few tools,
and you should be fine. Butyou're involving detectives.
You're involving tow truckcompanies detect. I just, I'm,
my mind is a little blown thatlike detectives are going to,
you know, these freightconferences as well, and being a
resource to folks like yourself.
So I think that's incrediblyimpressive, and just proves that

(01:18:35):
just this industry is just themore layers you peel back.
There's so many more that youcan dive into. And I would
imagine for a lot of shippers,it can be just daunting to even
try to think about, you know,some of these solutions that you
would have to deploy, which isprobably why that they, you

(01:18:55):
know, offload that to someoneelse. So I'm curious for maybe
some some shippers that are arewondering how they can approach
this topic better. What signsshould they look for in a
brokerage partner and an agentpartner that they should look
for to formulate that thatrelationship with them. Well, I

Unknown (01:19:15):
think the first thing a shipper should look for in a
situation like that is, is thatbroker agent, or are they acting
as a supply chain consultant?
For me, right? Be having theopportunity of working on a
shipper side as well. You know,I would always value those,
those relationships fromcarriers or brokers who would
bring me information. Here'swhat's happening in the market,

(01:19:38):
here's what's going on. And someof my better relationships I had
were times where somebody wouldsay, Hey, listen, I just want to
make sure you're aware of thisright now, obviously they may be
trying to do a soft sell orsomething, maybe, but you know
what? It really helped me out inthose regards. So I think in
today's world with what's goingon, if you're a shipper out
there and you're shippingpartners, your three PLS, your

(01:20:01):
carrier, even your asset basedcarriers, if they're not coming
to you and telling you, here'swhat's going on, x, y and z,
then, then, why? Right? Theyshould be saying, what questions
should I be asking that I'm notyou know, what conferences
should I be going to that I maynot be aware of, because in the

(01:20:22):
end, if you're looking, if youas a shipper, you're looking at
a freight brokerage or an assetbased carrier is just somebody
who's going to pick up myproduct from A to A to B at the
lowest possible cost. Well,you're kind of setting yourself
up for an opportunity in futurereally, right? You want somebody
who's going to come in and be asupply chain consultant for you,

(01:20:45):
not just a freight brokerage.
That's that's not going to workfor anybody. So that's what I
would be looking for.

And I would love to flip the script a little
bit. Maybe there's a freightagent out there who is thinking
about making a switch, hopefullyto SPI. What should what should
they be building, I guess maybein their resume or their own
sort of skill set, to be able toeither join SPI and have these
resources available to them, ormaybe kind of sell themselves a

(01:21:16):
little bit better, or get alittle bit more knowledgeable on
freight fraud as a whole, sothat they can sell themselves
better and make thoserelationships like with SPI a
reality for them in the future.

Unknown (01:21:29):
Sure. So you talk.
About a value proposition.
Here's what I would say. Ifthere's an individual out there
who's a broker right now in abrokerage, or somebody who's an
agent, who's not with SPI let'sjust stay with a broker, because
I think that was the context ofyour question. If you're a
broker at a freight brokerage,what you should be looking for

(01:21:50):
is, how do you get moreknowledge? What conferences Can
you attend? And not everybodycan attend those conferences,
right? So, but you know what?
There? There are so manydifferent sources of information
out there, in the on theinternet, you know there,
there's freight waves, there'sfreight caviar, there's podcasts
like yours. There's podcasts outthere that they can just sign on
and join and learn, and thenthey should take that

(01:22:12):
information and go to kind ofwhat I just said before, and
then bring that to theirshippers. Right? What sets them
apart from the other brokerthat's calling? Because in
today's environment, thoseshippers are getting 200 300
calls a day, right? So insteadof calling somebody saying, Hey,
do you got any freight today?
Or, Hi, my name is Mark, youknow, could I send you a quote?

(01:22:35):
You know? What would you come ata different perspective? Listen,
I'm going to what's your emailaddress, or I've got your email
address for my a marketing tool,and I'm just going to send you
this information. Maybe I'm noteven going to ask for the
freight. And you kind of buildit up that way. So once you
build your business and you gota deeper understanding with your
customer, then you can take thatcustomer and bring them to a

(01:22:55):
company like SBI, right? Andthen you you open yourself up to
everything that we offer, whichI think is tremendous.

It definitely sounds, it sounds like an
incredible lifeline for forfolks out there that you don't
have to go it alone. You don'thave to, you know, take on all
this monetary risk and creditrisk and all of these different
factors that could, you know,one bad decision could put you
out of business. It'sdefinitely, I tell myself all

(01:23:22):
the time, like, if it was, youknow, 20 years ago, I would be a
freight agent for SPI I don'tthink I'm built for it anymore.
I don't have, you know, that thepatience for the broker life or
for the agent life, but itreally is one of the most, I
think, enviable positions in allof logistics, where you have,
you know, the security of a bigcompany, of working for a big

(01:23:43):
company, but then you also have,you know, that little bit of an
entrepreneurial side of thecoin, where you can really, you
know, build your own brand,Build your own business and
merge those two worlds together.
I would love, you know, a couplefinal notes here, maybe final
pieces of advice. Shiva, I'llstart with you. How do you
prevent it? How do you rectifyit when, relative to freight

(01:24:03):
fraud, and any advice for maybesome freight agents out there,
who are, you know, kind ofswimming upstream right now.

Unknown (01:24:13):
I mean, I think what Mark said was really good, as
well as basically notifyingtheir shippers of all these
risks and what's happening inthe industry. One thing I did
want to point out that recentlyhappened that somebody was
telling me is shippers not justchecking, like, okay. Like, you
know, ABC carriers supposed tocome and then they look at and
they're like, Okay, this is ABCcarrier, but really checking

(01:24:34):
their trucks as well, becausethere's trucks with just like,
little cardboards on them thatjust, you know, has the name of
the company right now, andthey're really not looking at
all. And I think that was onehuge thing that I recently found
out about. And, you know, Ithink that's a huge thing for
shippers, but also freightagents to notify their shippers

(01:24:55):
of these risks, and also themlearning of all the risks that's
happening. I think one of thebiggest things is really being
open to all the technology thatis coming and because
everything's changing. So likeyou said, 10 years ago, it was
so easy to vet carriers andonboard carriers, but now a lot
of the time, I find that they'renot okay with this change, but

(01:25:16):
we have to really be open tothis change, because we have to
change, just like the industryis changing and we have to start
doing extra vetting. I thinkthat's a huge thing is, you
know, not staying back andsaying, oh, but we're gonna have
to do this, like 10 months ago,but now, unfortunately, we do,
because we have to change withthe time. So I think having that
mindset would be really, reallyhelpful for agents to prevent

(01:25:39):
and as well as, you know,shippers and brokers,

yeah, great insight that that's a great
takeaway, because it's eitheradapt or survive. And I know a
lot of carriers hate looking atthe technology, and, you know,
there's some gripes about it,but if it's going to keep you in
business, you got to evolve

Unknown (01:25:56):
Exactly, exactly. What about Mark?

What about for you? Any, any last minute advice
for for freight agents outthere, maybe curious about
working with SBI?

Unknown (01:26:04):
Well, sure, if they're curious about SPI you can always
reach out to us as a company.
You can reach out to me onLinkedIn, always willing to help
anybody out, even if it's notrelated to being an agent for
SBI, I have individuals who willcall me who who don't work with
us. They don't haul a load forus. They saw my name somewhere.
And I'll reach out, and I'll doeverything I can to help them,
as far as last words or anythinglike that, I would just say over

(01:26:25):
communicate, truly, if you're ashipper. Over communicate. This
is what I'm shipping. This iswhat it is. And then also ask
those questions from yourbroker, who's supposed to pick
up my load? What's the name?
What's the driver's name? Let'sget some tracking on it,
because, you know, life put itto you like this. Let's, let's
say you put 200 because that'sabout the price of a load. Now,

(01:26:47):
you put $200,000 in your purse,right? And you post that on that
and you got a truck driver isgoing to pick up your purse. Do
you trust that truck driver totake your person at $200,000
from your house in Florida toCalifornia?

I'm working with SPI I do well, you want to
make

Unknown (01:27:06):
sure you know who that individual is, right? And in
today's world, you got a lot ofdifferent avenues to do that.

So, no, that's great perspective. And just,
it's such a it's bringing itback. I guess the earlier
comment about, you know, carrier411, is just no longer enough.
You have to do several things,both tech wise and just feeling
people out wise and positionyourself, you know, be a sponge,

(01:27:32):
learn as much as you can aboutthese different tools and
processes, go to conferences,meet people, because this is
still at the end of the day,it's a relationship driven
industry, and thoserelationships can get you far.
As you two are very evident ofthat. And so thank you both for
coming on the show and sharingthis insight and perspective. I

(01:27:53):
could talk about these differentlike cargo crime stories at ad
nauseum, and I watch all of it.
I don't know if y'all watch allthe shows, but I watch all of
the, you know, border crime andhow to catch a smuggler, and you
know, all of these different,you know, carrier focus shows,
or crime focus shows thatinvolves at the border or just
trying to get goods in and outof the United States. So I don't
know. Do y'all watch any ofthose shows by any chance? Yeah,

(01:28:24):
definitely. I'm over here likeguessing the type of drug that's
in the truck, or you know thatthis one is smuggling this kind
of stuff over here in statues.
And I love it. And they, youknow, they have a lot of tech
involved in that as well. Sothis was a fun and interesting
conversation. Obviously, it's asad reality of, you know, the
sort of the nature of what we'reall discussing and trying to

(01:28:44):
deal with, but it's good to knowthat there are resources out
there. And I'm sure you know,all of the agents within SPI are
super happy that they have, youknow, folks that got their back,
and you know they're able tolean on y'all during tough
times. So thank you again forcoming on the show. I'll be sure
to link to both of yourlinkedins in the show notes,
and, of course, link back to SPIfor folks who want to reach out

(01:29:06):
and hear more. But thank youguys again.

Unknown (01:29:11):
Thanks Blythe. Welcome into another

episode of everything is logistics, a
podcast for the thinkers infreight. I'm your host, Blythe
Milligan, we are proudlysponsored by SPI logistics, and
we've got another great show foryou live at manifest, the future
of supply chain and logistics.
And we've got Reed Clements fromHighway, who I've been trying to
get on this show for a very longtime. It's not without effort.
We just kept missing each other.

(01:29:35):
But now we're here.

Unknown (01:29:36):
We're here. We met it.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Really happy to be here,absolutely now,

what do you do for highway? For those who've
been living under a rock, whatdo you do for highway? And then
what does highway do for othercompanies?

Unknown (01:29:46):
Yeah, I am on the sales team. I think my title is sales.
I don't know if we have othertitles, but sales, enterprise,
account executive, I knew I hadsomething formal, but sales, so
I'm talking to brokerages dayin, day out, sharing the gospel
of highway. And then to yourother question, what is highway?
We are an identity and accessmanagement provider to help

(01:30:06):
brokers and carers connect viaseamless single sign on
experience. That's the formal Ithink what we actually do is we
help carriers onboard tobrokerages via a single sign on
experience, kind of like whenyou press sign into Google to
get YouTube TV. We want to helpcarriers get to a brokerage
experiences like that, and atthe same time, eliminate fraud.
If you're to dive in, I'm readyto go deep. All right, all

(01:30:28):
right. So, so fraud became a bigproblem. Post pandemic, really
pandemic. Post pandemic, whenfreight got a big highlight on
it, like everyone in the entireworld saw the word supply chain,
and then supply chain got verypopular. And with popularity,
you have the good guys and thebad guys, the good actors, bad
actors, the bad actors saw fraudas a golden like, golden egg.

(01:30:49):
Like, why would I not try this?
Because fraud lives in aenvironment where there's kind
of three things are necessary,prospective gain, right? What
can I get from this? And infreight, it's the actual
freight. Let me steal thisanhyzer Bush load, or this,
these, I think I saw a reporteggs were stolen last week. So
if prospect of gain, what is theactual freight? How much money
can I make from it? Whether it'sdouble broken the load and

(01:31:10):
getting a small cut, or stealingthe load and getting 100,000 a
million dollars worth of freightthere. So your prospective gain,
you have anonymity. We've alllived in the broker lifestyle.
We know how brokers work. At theend of the day, you're picking
up a phone and talk to some ofthe phone. You're emailing them.
You're not shaking their hand ina coffee shop and saying we're
going to do business together.
More often than not. You post aload and you have 100 carriers

(01:31:32):
calling you, so you have no ideawho they are. So it's big
anonymity aspect to it. And thethird would be positive regain
anonymity. Urgency in freight,every single broker is doing 100
things at once for all of theircustomers, and the name of the
game is speed. So is thisvaluable? You don't know me, so

(01:31:53):
there's low risk. And withurgency comes error. Human error
is having too fast. So fraudbecame rampant. How he came in
to solve the problem.

Now, from what I understand, you guys connect
into the VIN number. Or is thathow it works?

Unknown (01:32:08):
Yeah, bunch of different ways. So the first is,
who is this person? Are they theright do they belong here? So,
are you human? Are you whereyou're supposed to be? Do you
have permission to be here fromthe carrier level? And then you
go deeper and look at theirMcdot to say, Do you have the
authority? Do you have theinsurance necessary to haul my
freight, that

kind of onboard them? So you're on boarding a
carrier. It's even

Unknown (01:32:30):
just looking up like before you onboard, is this the
right person? And then then youhave the VIN level data, which
we get from multiple avenues.
But in the COI, the insurancecert itself will list the VINs.
What we do, that's proprietary,is connected to the cares. ELD,
so if you have 10 trucks andyou're on sim Sarah or motive,
or what have you, ELD, weconnect to their ELD account to
say you do have 10 trucks, andhere they are, and there's the

(01:32:52):
bins listed, or you claim tohave 10, there's only one truck
that's moved in the past sevendays. Like, Where's, where's the
rest of the trucks? Why aren'tthere any insurance policy? Why
are you claiming 10, but you'relying, or vice versa. Why are
you claiming 10? Would have 80.

What's going on here? That's I saw one of y'all
demos at freight waves. Yeah, itwas somebody, I guess one of
these carriers was saying thatthey're going to cover like 12
different loads, and then youonly had eight trucks, and so
that put it up, I guess, higheron your dashboard and highway,
if you have a highway account,correct me, if I'm wrong, but
it's like a dashboard, and thenin the dashboard, that priority

(01:33:27):
item goes up to the top. Yeah,you that this person might not.
They might Exactly.

Unknown (01:33:32):
Oh, you got it, yeah.
It's a trigger warning for foranyone to know. And that
specific thing is what we callan overbooked carrier alert.
Like the guy has eight trucks,he's booked 12 loads from 12
different brokerages. Eachbroker thinks you're booking one
load with nature a carrier,which is what you're supposed to
do. Like you wouldn't book 12loads the nature carrier
yourself, but 12 differentbrokers have now booked with
this eight truck carrier, and heaccepted all 12 loads. Since we

(01:33:54):
have a network effect of servingthese brokers, we can see that
this eight truck carrier hasbooked 12 loads that are going
all across the country. If itwas like chatting to Atlanta,
it's possible, right? But we'renot going to trigger an alert,
because there's short hauls. Youcan do more than one load a day,
but if it's more than x percentor X number of miles. If it's
within this same scheduledpickup delivery date, you're

(01:34:14):
gonna get an alert. He'soverworked his

assets. What's the craziest type of fraud
you've seen so far

Unknown (01:34:21):
in terms of, like, manipulative activity, or, like
stolen freight, or like, how itslipped through

manipulative and the craziest, like, load
that was stolen? Yeah, I tried

Unknown (01:34:31):
to be stolen. I'm not going to go specific on the type
of freight or the customer, butthe higher the value of freight,
the more eyes on it, the morethe FBI gets involved, of
course. So the easiest thing Ican think of is, like precious
metals or alcohol, stuff likethat that are if you steal the
load, it's easy to resell that.
You take it across the border,and people want to buy that kind
of thing. So those are alwaysthe hot ticket fraud events. You

(01:34:53):
should always be on red alert.
The higher the value, the morered alert you should be on, from
that perspective. And then, interms of creativity, to
manipulate something, you havethe VoIP phone numbers. That's a
very easy indicator. If you're atruck driver, why do you have a
VoIP instead of a cell phone?
Right? It's pretty simple. Thefraudulent phone numbers

(01:35:13):
themselves, instead of a VoIP,it's a phone number, but you
scoop the phone number, you canget an app and change your phone
number to recalling or thefraudulent emails. The biggest
you put a zero and seven, Oh,who's going to look at that in
an email? Or an L and seven, Ilowercase? Yeah, it's stuff
like, That's wild. And then themore creative, like, the more

(01:35:34):
sophisticated hacking the FMCSA,changing the FMCSA information,
which is what everyone uses asource of truth for so long, but
now you think you're talking theright person, but their FMCSA
data was just hacked, and it'sthe fraudster who's
impersonating the good guy. Thegood guy screwed. The broker
working with the good guyscrewed. There's a mess. And how
does

that work? If, like, the FMCSA gets hacked, do
they alert everyone that they'vebeen hacked? Or probably not,
like, how does that?

Unknown (01:36:00):
I'm not going to speak ill of the government, but you
know, they don't know half thetime, right? Why would the FMCSA
know that this person is tryingto log in and change a couple
things? Okay, okay, they'rerequesting a new code to change
their password and get in, orsomething like that. Or, I think
Jordan, our founder, talkedabout this like a year ago, but

(01:36:21):
there's some reallysophisticated crime rings that
downloaded the entire from CSAdatabase and did a query to
search any. Spelled emailbecause at the end of the day, a
carrier or you and I couldmisspell our own email when
signing up with the government,and then that's your formal
email. Or you sign up for anemail you misspelled it
yourself, right? And thenthey'll find those queries of

(01:36:43):
emails that were just one letteroff or something. And then
they'll make the correct emailso that when you're looking them
up, are you talking the rightperson, the wrong person, the
right person is actually thewrong email. But you don't think
that. Why would you talk thewrong email? So there's,

how are y'all, I guess I with all of these,
like new, you know, sort of AIvoice cloning type things. How
are you guys prepared to helpwith that type of level of
fraud? Because that was one ofthe things as a podcaster I knew
about, sort of, you know, myvoice cloning for a long time,
that I could go and I could getthis done for 30 seconds for $10

(01:37:16):
a month, right? But now, other,many more people are going to
have access to this technologyall across the globe. How? What
is the philosophy againstcombating that?

Unknown (01:37:26):
Yeah, there's a lot of avenues you can go down here,
but I'm gonna take a step up andtalk about the life cycle, the
load and what you can do tocombat each part. So you have
communications, you havesourcing, you have vetting,
onboarding, monitoring,tracking, and then post load

(01:37:46):
delivery, gathering the correctinformation, the details on what
happened there. So that's kindof the life cycle of the load.
That's where highway wants tolive. Is every piece of the life
cycle load. So communications,first and foremost, before you
even onboard or veticare, youtalk to them. They email you,
they call you. Vice versa. So wehave an email plug in and a
phone plug in email, plug inlives on your Gmail, on your

(01:38:08):
outlook, on your front app togive you a quick indicator, red
light, yellow light, greenlight, just a good guy or bad
guy. Same for the phone system.
When a carrier calls in, if youhave the VoIP plug in, it lives
in the phone system, and justlike a spam filter on our
phones, Red Alert. This is notwho you think it is. This is a
front of the VoIP. This is aspoofed phone number. This. This
phone number already has ninefraud reports on their profile,

(01:38:28):
and the carrier is associatedwith. It's just going to block
the call. So communications isthere, sourcing, find every
single carrier we have your ELDsconnected. So where are your
trucks? Right now? It's a goodindicator for where your trucks
are right. So help you find theright capacity. Are they passing
or failing? Your custom riskassessment that you host in
highway. So as soon as you lookup a carrier, green light, red
light. Use them. Don't use them.

(01:38:51):
Onboarding, powered by theidentity engine, right? Are you
who you say you are? It's asingle sign on multi factor
authentication process that has80 different permutations of
challenging the person on. Areyou who you claim to be or not,
right? And if you fail, thatyou're out. I didn't

even fail. I didn't think about it from that
lens, because I thought that youguys, you know, I tried to
simplify it in my head, thatyou're just connecting the
carrier to the VIN number, andthen that's kind of it, and then
it's up to the broker.

Unknown (01:39:17):
Used to be that easy, right? It used to be that easy
evolved. I guess you have to bea cyber security expert to
figure out all this stuff. Soyou have all that we can go very
deep with identity proofing,which is where you take your
license out and scan it and scanthe barcode, then you put your
face up and you do the all thefun stuff. That's what the
Department of Defense uses,right? It's identity proofing.
Are you who you claim to be, anddo you match? So we can go as

(01:39:38):
deep as that. We can keep itpretty lightweight, depending on
what we know of the carrier. Andthen onboarding, track and
trace, low level compliance.
It's all part of highway, yeah.

What is, I guess, sort of the typical
pushback that you might get froma customer who might want to and
then how do you answer that?

Unknown (01:39:56):
Our biggest when I'm talking to a prospect, the
there's two reasons theywouldn't buy, sophistication and
price. Price aside, we all knowprice is price. You bring value
in the values there or not.
Sophistication is the other one.
We do a lot for you, and when abroker sends it for highway,
you're gonna understand 20% ofwhat we do, and you're not gonna

(01:40:17):
have any idea what 80% of itdoes. Then once you've been a
customer for a year, you'regonna understand 50% of it, and
50% you'll have no idea what'shappening. That's on purpose.
Like you don't know whatGoogle's doing when you press
send into Google. You don't knowwhat Wi Fi is doing when you
like to log into Wi Fi, youdon't have to know. You trust
it. You trust it. You work it.
But I think sophistication ofyou're buying something you've
never heard of, you never seenof, you didn't know, is

(01:40:37):
necessary until you just lostfour loads last week. That's
typically the pushback.

And then I would imagine that for a lot of
those people who push back onprice, once they lose a few
loads, then they come around,

Unknown (01:40:50):
it's a boomerang, yeah, you may tell me no, six months
ago, and then the inbox is open,respond, and they'll come back.

What is sort of, I guess, the percentage of,
maybe growth of fraud that hasevolved since, yeah, yeah. It
sounds like it's just changingevery day

Unknown (01:41:07):
I read cargo net stuff, because programs very popular,
and they post a lot of stats. Iwant to say, like every year
it's growing by like, 200% 300%400% but the caveat there is,
it's not 300% since 2020 it's300% over 2022 and then 500%
over 2023, and then 80% over2024, so it's not a little bit

(01:41:29):
more each year. It'scompounding. Funding
exponentially every year.

And is that because of technology or just
because maybe some regulationsthat we lack in the United
States? Yeah.

Unknown (01:41:38):
I mean maybe both, yes, yes. I think it all boils back
to what we said first,prospective gain, anonymity,
urgency. It's a hotbed for forstolen items. Like, why would
prospective gain? You're notgoing to get caught often, and
if you do get caught, then yourMC is broken, like you get
unauthorized. You're caught.
Just go buy a 300 RMC number andstart again. Is that really how

(01:41:58):
easy it is? Yeah, you and I canmake an MC right now. Everything
is logistics, LLC, trucking,right? We can build it. It's 300
bucks.

What? Yeah, I had no idea was that easy to get
an MC. Had to get a CDL or andthen MC,

Unknown (01:42:14):
the very entry is very low, which

is incredible.
Maybe a good thing, yeah,

Unknown (01:42:19):
right, anything and everything. But yeah,

any good customer stories that you can
share with us, or you can leavethe customer name out, or case,
yeah.

Unknown (01:42:25):
I mean, we have public customer testimonies. If you go
to highway.com hit the articlesor Partners tab, whatever it is,
and you can see a bunch ofcustomers who want to publicly
announce that they partner withhighway. And here's their stats
of 90% fraud prevention or 100%fraud prevention, which is
wonderful. They're all straightstories. All of a sudden, we're
on the spot. I know, mode justannounced. Ch Robinson did a big

(01:42:48):
announcement. Feniche did one.
Taylor logistics has done one,but they're on the website.

Wow, yeah, so we'll make sure, we'll
definitely link to it in theshow notes, so you guys can
check it out if you've obviouslybeen living under a rock and
have not, you know, read any ofthis, because you guys are
everywhere. It feels like you'realso, like, integrated with
everyone

Unknown (01:43:05):
as well. Yeah, integrations are necessary,
because you can have a wonderfulproduct and that does everything
for you. If it's not integrated,then you still have the human
error aspect. Human erroraspect, like, did you actually
do this or not? Whereas, if it'sintegrated the system, it's a
system wide, company wideinitiative, like, it's either in
or it's out, it's fullyintegrated. There's no, you're
not the one going in saying,Yes, we use them, or no, we

(01:43:26):
don't. It's system wide. It'sintegrated. So it has, I mean,
that's the beauty of a fullsoftware solution is it touches
everything. Where you live. Whatdoes this sort of the onboarding
process look like for a carrier,for like a broker, signing up
today? Oh, maybe both. Yeah. Socarriers, single sign on. You
press into the highway, ifyou've been before, you go
straight to, how do I get paidby this broker? And sign their
BCA, and you're done. 20seconds. If you've never been to

(01:43:48):
Highway, it's about a fourminute process. You have to get
verified, go through the fullSSO and then verify the
information already know aboutyou, locations, you run
insurance, payment details, w9all the onboarding stuff. So
care. Onboarding can be 20seconds. It can be four minutes.
We onboard like 25,000 carries aday. I think the median is 27
seconds, and that's foreverybody, which is pretty blows

(01:44:11):
my mind. So that's carrieronboarding, and then as a new
customer comes. The highway.
Depends on what TMS are on andon how long it's gonna take. You
have your great it's a horribleword to say. You have your more
modern TMS systems that that youcan integrate quickly with.
Yeah, exactly. Rev Nova, Turbo,tie three, Pl systems, guys like
that, where you can sign up forhighway and within seven days,

(01:44:34):
you're fully live baked in, andyou're on or you have the bigger
brand names that have beenaround for forever, McLeod,
Mercury gate, those types thatmay take 3060, days to get
integrated because it's acarrier process, but yeah,

what does? How does, if I'm a broker and I'm
sitting down at my desk and Ihave my four screens that are
open. Where does highway sort ofsit in my day to day? Is it? Is
it taking up one of thosescreens? And then I'm doing
other things?

Unknown (01:45:01):
Yeah, so let's put a couple different hats on. You're
a broker on the floor, you're acarrier rep, or you're creator
of the grave. Highway isabsolutely one of those screens,
because part of highway issourcing capacity. How do I find
carriers to go from Milwaukee toDes Moines that are reefer
carriers that have smart waycertifications, that have at
least three trucks, no more than50? Because I don't want any big
fleets. I don't want anyonesies, twosies that have

(01:45:22):
100,000 in cargo coverageinsurance. Create my filter.
Here's every carrier who runsthat lane. Do you meet your
criteria? Are they passingfilling my rules? So there's a
sourcing and vetting aspect toit that your your reps are going
to need. They're going to wantthem. You don't have to have
them, but you don't want thatright there, your compliance
team, ideally, is only managingexceptions at that point when

(01:45:43):
the when your broker who whoreally wants to use this
carrier, but he's failing yourrules, you're going to bubble it
up to your compliance team tosay, hey, they're failing, but
it's only for this which is notfraud related, maybe it's
performance related or safetyscores. But can we use this
carrier? Then the compliance guyis going to dig in and say,
Well, normally we wouldn't, buttheir EOD is connected. So I see
their truck in Milwaukee rightnow, so override let them in. So

(01:46:03):
they're going to use it a fewtimes a day. And then you have
your track and trace team, whichis going to have it open all the
time. You have your there'sdifferent hats and how often
they're going to use it. Iwouldn't say every person at
every broker is going to have ahighway login at all, but
depending on how nuanced youwant to get and how deep you
want to go, they're going tohave the highway UI pulled up,

(01:46:24):
or they're going to be phonyrated through TMS. They're just
going to log into TMS to see itright there. You can go both
ways.

But so what happens if you. Discover a
problem after you've alreadybooked the carrier.

Unknown (01:46:34):
Yeah, yeah. That's a that's a big problem, right?
Yeah. So you. So the beauty ofhighway being integrated is that
we do web hook integrations, orAPI integrations through TMS
systems. It's an APIintegration. It monitors
carriers every five minutes,three, five or seven minutes,
feeling the TMS. So on thatschedule, you're going to get
the alert insurance changed, orCSA scores under threshold, or

(01:46:55):
Fraud Report, right? FraudReport, it goes from passing to
failing, integrating your TMSlike that. Or you have a web
hook integration, which web hookis, push and pull, and it's
immediate. As soon as somethinghappens, it's immediate, the
responses in your TMS, rightthere. Now to your point you
already booked the load, maybethe carriers on the load,
actively Red Alert, likeeveryone all eyes on your
calling the carrier, what'sgoing on. You're tracking the
ELD. Where's your truck rightnow? There's not much.

I just put it two and two together. You kept
saying, like, Red Alert, greenalert, Highway. The highway
lights. Took me a minute.

Unknown (01:47:26):
I'm right there, but it took me about a year. So you're
like, a year and 20 minutesfaster than this.

Now you came from freight waves, yeah. And
what was it? What was thereason? What, what did, maybe is
the biggest difference betweenfreight waves and then making
the transition over to Highway,yeah?

Unknown (01:47:44):
So I was at Freightways for four years, and it was
wonderful. I love my time there,and I love the team, and they
put me in a position to besuccessful and get me into the
right doors, right in front ofthe right people, great mentors.
You remember a lot of people.
There are great people. Thebiggest difference is that
sonar, I was on the sonar teamdoing data for Freightways.
Sonar is a data vendor sellingyou data, and there are
solutions built off of the datathat you can purchase as well.

(01:48:07):
Highway is a solution, not adata vendor. So, you know, no
broker comes to highway to buyour data. You come to highway
buy our solution and enforcethat company wide. That's the
biggest difference, I would say,between, like a freight waves,
sonar product versus highway,SAS solution versus data
provider.

Yeah, it's all intelligence. Yeah, it's one of
those where highway, from myunderstanding, is one of those
that you it sounds like it'sbecome very pivotal to a
broker's day or carriers day,

Unknown (01:48:38):
for sure. It's definitely it's touched
frequently, for sure.

So what? What's next for highway? What do you
guys got, you know, cooking?

Unknown (01:48:47):
Yeah, there's, there's, there's, there's there's three
kind of big initiatives.
I don't know what I'm allowed totalk about, because I'm just a
sales guy. Yeah, we can save itfor later. There's three big
ones. I think the one that we'relike, I posted on LinkedIn about
it in response, we were rollingout a carrier product that's

(01:49:08):
free for carriers to vetbrokers. Are you talking the
right person, or is this someoneimpersonating the broker? What's
their days depending broker?
What's their days to pay, theircredit, the everything about the
broker, but for carriers. So thesame highway login, when a
carrier logs in the highway nowthey can see, here's all my
current brokers I work with. Letme learn more about that. Make
sure I'm the right person, orthey're signing up to a new
broker. Is this the right guy ornot? So it's a free product for
carriers to vet brokers.

That's super interesting, because then you're
putting the power back in thecarriers.

Unknown (01:49:33):
Carries get hammered by all angles all the time. So
we're not going to charge forit. It's right there for you.
They're already in the highwaynetwork, like you're already
here while we charge you fordoing something you're already
doing. Just give them some morebenefit.

That's awesome.
All right. Well, read, anythingelse that you feel is important
to mention that we haven'talready talked about, we have
to,

Unknown (01:49:52):
like, we have, like, we went all sorts of directions,
which is great. I don't know ifyou want to reach out to us.
Read at highway service, athighway support, at highway you
can get to us a lot of ways. Goto our website, highway.com, and
you get a demo from there,there's a lot of information,
but

yeah, yeah, better safe than sorry. Sign up
for highway,

Unknown (01:50:08):
yeah. Thank you. Thank you much. Yeah. Really
appreciate it.

Welcome into another episode of everything is
logistics, a podcast where thethinkers in freight, I am your
host, Blythe Milligan, and weare proudly sponsored by SPI
logistics. And we've got onemore our last interview at
manifest, a future of supplychain and logistics, at least
the last live one. And we've gota repeat company, not repeat,
yes, but a repeat company comingback on the show. We got

(01:50:33):
Jonathan Ryan overhauls, ChiefProduct Technology Officer, to
talk about the state of cargocrime for 2025 along with a new,
I guess, our product that youguys are launching, here are
you. Is the press releasedropped today. I don't believe
it dropped today. I think itdropped it a little while ago.
But, yeah, gonna talk more aboutit. Gotcha. And that is your new
fraud watch AI solution, the 55million in funding that they

(01:50:56):
announced previously, as well asbroader trends happening in
supply chain risk management andcargo rift risk Theft Prevention
space. So that was a mouthfulfor myself, so I'm going to let
the expert take over from hereand Jonathan, give us a give us
a preview. Give us an overviewof how you got into logistics.
How you got into, you know,working for overhaul, all that

(01:51:17):
good stuff. Yep. So you know,unfortunately, I don't have a 20
year story to tell you about howI got into supply chain
logistics, but I completed acomputer science degree in
Ireland. I'm from Ireland, andwork. In finance for a year in
Ireland, really wanted to go tothe US and explore more on the
technology side and get intosomething there. And I kind of
expected, after a year in theUS, I'd return to Ireland and

(01:51:40):
have to find a new company, butcome back with some experience,
but I found overhaul. And, youknow, I started working in the
product and kind of tech supportspace eight years ago, almost
nine years ago now. And youknow, one of the lucky things
about that, I guess, is it meantwearing a lot of hats. And as we
kind of pivoted into the SaaSsolution that we have today, I

(01:52:01):
moved more into the productspace, engineering space. And
over the years, then, as wefound that product market fit,
moved into engineeringmanagement, VP of engineering.
And then year and a half ago, weconsolidated the product and
engineering orgs intotechnology, and then I moved
into the cpto role. And so withyour your role, with overhaul,
what does sort of a day to daylook like for you? There is no

(01:52:25):
one single day for sure. But,you know, we have a we have a
global team, engineers andproduct managers. So a lot of
what I try to do is just makesure that everybody's on the
same page around what we want toachieve, what are some of the
challenges we're facing. Youknow, what I really like to try
and incorporate into all of ourtechnology teams is good
industry understanding. I thinkit's really important that

(01:52:45):
whether you're an engineer or aproduct manager, you understand
the space and you know whyyou're solving the problem. And
so it's a lot of thatcoordination, and then also
just, you know, working with oursales marketing that go to
market strategy, things likethat, and are really just, you
know, pretty broad still, Ithink we're coming out of that
startup phase, and we've beenout for a while, but as someone

(01:53:05):
who joined the company fairlyearly, you know, you still kind
of wear quite a few hats and tryto Solve, tackle quite a few
problems. So from a high level,what does sort of risk and prod
fraud prevention look like inthe modern day? 2025 logistics
company? Yeah, yeah. And, Imean, that's the that's the
first question everybody asksis, what does risk mean to you?

(01:53:26):
And so, you know, our softwareis risk management solution
across a variety of differentrisks. So the risk might be on
time performance eta is, and therisk that that means to your
customers not arriving on time,and how it can affect your
relationship. But moretraditionally, what we focus on
is security and risk. And sowhat that means is the actual
integrity of the goods and theload, and also the safety of the

(01:53:48):
driver as part of that as well.
And so what will what we set outto achieve is, you know, first
and foremost, be preventative.
You don't want to stolen goods.
You don't want pilferages Thatyou're having to respond to. So
we try to, through incorporationof our technology technology,
improve our customer supplychains by bringing in best in
class processes, procedures,trying not to overwhelm, you

(01:54:11):
know, I think it's importantthat you're able to keep very
close to the procedures andprocesses they follow today, but
incorporate technology in theright places so that you can get
that data back and helpcontinually monitor and improve
their network. You justmentioned, you know, sort of
the, I guess, the safety of thedriver, which is, I think I
haven't really heard any othersort of risk prevention, fraud

(01:54:33):
prevention company talk about,can you expand on that a little
more? Yeah. I mean, you know, inthe early days, before we kind
of pivoted into the SaaSsolution, that was something
that we were very focused on,was, how can we help the
drivers, carriers, you know,find these higher value
shipments and loads and somebodywho's been performing, you know,
at a very high level for years,but maybe struggling to get into
that continual, reoccurringoperations. And so as part of

(01:54:56):
that driver focus, you know, wewanted to ensure that there was
safety from their perspective aswell, particularly when you're
operating globally in some ofthese more dynamic environments
where there can be, you know,concerns around that. I think
that's as important as ensuringthe cargo. You know, when I had
a previous guest from fromoverhaul on the show, we were
talking before we recorded that,they had mentioned all of the, I

(01:55:20):
guess, the differences betweencountries of Brazil versus
Mexico versus the United States,of how they try to have, you
know, try to implement fraudprevention, risk management,
things like that. I'm curioushow that's evolved, what is sort
of, I guess, a high levelprocess look like, because you
mentioned that some of thosethings that are happening in

(01:55:40):
other countries are now comingto the United States, yeah. And
so maybe to even take a stepback a little bit and speak to
what overhaul does. So we are asoftware company, and we look at
integrating all of the variousdata that already exists out
there. And so we're nothardware. We don't build
devices, but we do integratewith them, and we are device and
IoT agnostic. And so what thatallows us to do via maybe TMS,

(01:56:02):
ERP, WMS, OMS integrations, iscreate that customer shipment
and then via our telematics ELD,IoT integrations populate that
shipment with with those datasources and those pings that
that allow us to track ashipment. And so what that does
from the security perspectivethen, and maybe getting into you

(01:56:23):
know, what we see acrossdifferent regions that provides
a higher level of A. Visibilityand higher frequency and a
higher resolution network. Andso when it comes to cargo theft,
you know, what we've typicallyseen in areas like our regions
like Mexico, Brazil, is a lotmore risk to the driver in those

(01:56:45):
areas. And it can be, you know,I'm not sure what the right word
to put on it is, but you know,an environment where the driver
is definitely, you know, alittle more aware of the issues
they might might encounter whileon the road. But what we've seen
over the last, you know, coupleof years, is a lot of those
methods that were happeningoverseas, outside of the US,
actually come into the US now,and we've seen things such as

(01:57:09):
the Romanian role. I don't knowif you're familiar with that,
but it's honestly like somethingstraight out of Fast and
Furious. You know, where theload is moving down the road at
high speeds, and they'reactually pilfering it and
unloading the cargo while inmotion, and taking things out of
the back of the trailer. Sothat's just an example of some
of the methods that we've seenthat have started to become more

(01:57:30):
frequent in the US, where we hadtypically seen them overseas.
Wow, that is absolutely insane.
There was another thing, and Idon't know if this is happening
yet in the United States, butthere was another thing that he
had mentioned that for inBrazil, they almost try to
recruit high schoolers to, youknow, just get into with the

(01:57:52):
cartels and the local gangswithin Brazil, and then they
recruit them to start working atdifferent logistics companies.
And so then they have an in oncethat person graduates high
school or graduates theirschooling, and then goes and
works for these logisticscompanies. Yeah, absolutely. You
know, that's not something thatwe've encountered too much of in
the US. But you know what tiesin similar, very closely to

(01:58:15):
that, is that you know people onthe inside and you know carrier
companies that are set up andtrying to look as reputable as
can be. But part of what ourfraud watch solution does is it
incorporates, first of all, youknow, a very rich historical
data set that we have from anintelligence perspective, but

(01:58:36):
then also integrating with thirdparty data source, sources such
as the FMCSA data, along with avariety of other sources. And so
what that helps us identify arethose illegitimate carriers, or
carriers that are trying toappear as if, as if they're
legitimate, and they've beenworking in the industry for a
while. And so that's where ourfraud watch. When a carrier is
entered into the system as partof the process, is able to flag

(01:58:58):
that, hey, this after passingthrough our rules engine, this
doesn't meet the criteria thatwe would expect, and you might
want to, you know, reconsidershipping that load with this
carrier. That's superinteresting. And so it's almost
like an alert system prior tomaybe it becoming a problem.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And maybejust to even speak a little more
to fraud watch in that context.
So a big problem that a lot ofour customers had, and that a

(01:59:21):
lot of people still have in theindustry, is double brokering
and shipment being created,maybe via their TMS platform,
and, you know, a certain carrierbeing assigned, but then who
actually shows up on the day topick up that load? And that's
where we have software that'savailable at the dock that
allows them to capture thecarrier who's showing up at that
time, and then we assess itagainst who was the originally

(01:59:43):
booked carrier through the TMS,and then compare if that's
double brokered. And then atthat same time, run that through
our fraud watch system to beable to understand, you know,
is, has it been operating formore than six months? Is there
more than one driver there? Dothey have more than one tractor
or trailer register? There's alot of these different nuances,
you know, that we've understoodthrough our history, but also

(02:00:03):
through our intelligence teamsthat work at overhaul to really
kind of define and make thatfraud watch product very, you
know, useful and impactful forour customers. And so when, when
somebody is using fraud watch,is it almost like they're they
have a screen open on, you know,say, like a traditional, like,
broker's office or something.

(02:00:25):
They have four screens, andthey're booking lows, they're
calling, they're sourcing,carriers are doing all of that
stuff. Do they have fraud watchas, like, one on something, one
of their screens as they'relooking at on a day to day
basis? So there's, actually,there's a few different ways
that they can use fraud watch.
And so first and foremost fraudwatch is, you know,
preventative, and we try not, asI said before, to disrupt their

(02:00:48):
flow of how they do things. Sofor example, if if they want to
create shipments in a TMS, thenat that time, via an API, we
will assess the carrier thatthey've assigned so that can be
completely hands off, justthrough their TMS system. And
then we can send that as anotification or an alert to
whoever at the at the customerwants to be notified of that, to

(02:01:08):
say that, hey, you'vepotentially put a risky carrier
on on this load. So that's kindof hands off approach. Then we
have software that can, youknow, be loaded onto a tablet, a
mobile application. And we'realso looking at app list,
because who doesn't have appfatigue at this point? And
that's where it can be a littlemore hands on, where you're
capturing at that. Point ofdeparture, who the carrier is,

(02:01:31):
and so that's that's alertingthat to you. But then, as you
mentioned, there is also a webapp that has the carrier
dashboard where you can entercarriers in, and you know, maybe
it's not that one time checkout, where you're assessing that
particular carrier, but you'reuploading multiple carriers, and
you're getting that bulk checkand just assessing your network
for any of the latest risks. Soexception management, maybe,

(02:01:53):
yeah, yeah, exactly. And, andone thing is that, you know,
people will will talk about AIevery other second word here is
probably going to be AI, but youknow, you're only as good as the
data that you have and theintelligence that you have, and
that's where on the overhaulside, something that is very
unique to us is 16 years worthof intelligence data from an

(02:02:15):
intelligence team who has workedin this space. You know, we have
some formal law enforcement withover 80 years between them who
are working in tandem with soyou actually have officers too
that are working for overhaul,yep. Yeah, exactly. And so, you
know, we really aim to combinemachine learning AI data, but

(02:02:35):
with subject matter experts aswell, you know, to validate, to
review, of course, not everyshipment that ever travels is
captured in overhaul. So we dohave other integrations, and we
do have team members that arefocused on understanding Well,
what are the latest trends? Whatdo we need to be able to respond
to? I can actually give youanother example of something
that we're seeing and how Iwould love to see it here. So

(02:02:57):
that was gonna be my nextquestion. Is here some of those
latest trends, commodities thatare targeted maybe sticks. So
there's been a 50% increase from2023 to 2024 in cargo theft, and
30% of that has been aroundelectronics. So electronics is
heavily, heavily targeted. 50%of that has been pilferage, and

(02:03:17):
I think 25% has been fulltruckload. So you know, we're
seeing a big uptick in cargotheft. But you know, to speak
the overhaul, one thing we doalso see is that for the goods
that are targeted frequently, orare maybe more high value. One
out of every 2000 loads thataren't monitored by overhaul,
we'll see a theft event, youknow, maybe a tempted pilferage,

(02:03:40):
a pilferage things like that.
Does that mean, you know,somebody's trying to stay like
the Romanian road that what youwere talking Yeah, they're just
trying to take, you know, acouple of couple of boxes off
the back, maybe some TV screens,consoles, things like that. You
know, just trying to use themoment get away with with what
they can. And so that's one in2000 that we see targeted that

(02:04:02):
aren't monitored by overhaul.
But then when you are monitoredby overhaul, it's one in 35,000
so our preventative measures iswhat we really focus on as to
Don't get yourself into thatsituation where you're
susceptible to cargo theft, oryou're driving on a lane or in a
region, or using a carrier whois going to, you know,
potentially put that load atrisk. And so that's, you know,
super interesting stat, I think,from our side, is that we are,

(02:04:25):
you know, continuously beatingthat industry trend for those
who target high value goods. Butsorry, I forgot. I was going to
get back to the the example. Andso one thing that we're seeing
is speaking to thesophistication of Cairo
criminals today, is that theywill take the bol at a at an
origin facility and then get intransit, and they'll actually

(02:04:46):
have printers in the cab withthem to Doctor the bol and then
show up at the deliverylocation, give the you know,
receiver the updated BOL, andthen leave with you know, the
rest of of the goods. And sothat's where that double
brokering and preventative stepis so important, and that's the
kind of issue that fraud watchis tackling. And honestly,

(02:05:07):
that's been that's been growingrapidly. Wow. What are some
other, maybe trends that areevolving? Because I have heard,
I think it was around 2020, ormaybe 2021, that it wasn't
necessarily electronics thatwere being targeted. It was more
like perishables. So energydrinks, where, I think we're a
big one, pistachios were also abig one. Are there any other
like commodities? Maybe, becausefor a lot of, I think, for the

(02:05:30):
audience, for a lot of thoseexamples, there's no tracking
those products, because oncethey're eaten or used that you
can't find, you know, a VINnumber or UPC number on the back
of that, versus, like, anelectronic device. So I'm
curious if you know any of thoseother sort of commodity trends
you're seeing in your data.
Yeah, I think, you know, one ofthe recent stories that came up

(02:05:53):
was maybe you saw it around theeggs. Eggs being stolen. No, and
so, you know, that kind ofspeaks an X Wing stolen. Sorry,
eggs. I knew the Irish accidentget me in trouble here, yeah,
and so and so we saw recently,and I think, you know, it hit
pretty much mainstream news aswell around eggs being stolen.

(02:06:15):
And that, you know, speaks tohow agile a lot of these cargo
criminals are, because it's notnecessarily about the value of
the goods, it's also aboutdemand. And so, you know, eggs
is something that's been verytopical over this last while.
And so they know. And a lot ofthese carrot criminals are also
wholesalers, the good one, thegood ones. And so to them, it's

(02:06:37):
about margin and how quickly youcan shift that. And so
sometimes, when you seesomething like demand for eggs,
and you know that there's marketthere for it, that's actually,
you know, there's can be moreincentive than going and taking
TVs, because they know that theycan just move that so quickly.
And it's once it's gone, it'sgone. Yeah, there's no
traceability to it. What othertrends, I guess, are you seeing
for maybe, you know, 2025, andbeyond, you know, I really just

(02:07:02):
do think that it's the continuedsophistication of of how these
category criminals areoperating. I think that example
that I gave of the updated bolshows that they're much more
familiar with what's happeningin terms of how people are
monitoring goods and how they'reresponding to it. And so that's,
you know, a constant evolutionon our side is, how can we stay

(02:07:24):
ahead of that? You know, we canbring out the latest technology
and then we might see themrespond. And so we got to keep
being ahead of it, and from myperspective, overhaul, being
device agnostic, and being ableto leverage the variety of
different IoT sources acrossmany of the manufacturers, gives
us that advantage, because we'renot tied into a specific type of

(02:07:44):
device. We've introduced newthings this year, such as the
Bluetooth seal, where it's aseal that's on the back of the
trailer, and when it's cut, itcommunicates with the device
that's inside to let themunderstand that. You know, this
has now been targeted, and it'sa definite this, this door has
been opened. So you know, ourflexibility there from a data

(02:08:06):
point of view. Then there's doorswitches that can be installed
for when the door opens, and alot of different solutions and
configurations like that and andit's that configurability that I
think resonates most with ourcustomers, is that we're able to
respond, you know, and be veryagile to these challenges that
occur as criminals get moresophisticated. Is there a, I

(02:08:26):
guess, a recommended tech stackfor somebody to avoid fraud in
particular, like you mentioned,the Bluetooth device, maybe the
door sensors. What would if youwere starting a trucking company
and you were worried about yourfreight, how would you secure
it?
It's great question. And youknow, it honestly comes down to

(02:08:46):
to the use case. You know, areyou multimodal? Are you using
rail? Are you shipping overoverseas or air vessel, because
there's a lot of differentintelligence that we can pull
into those container tracking ormaster airway build tracking to
understand if the route ischanging dynamically and make
sure, because that's one of themost important things is how
accurate is the data from A toB, and are you able to define

(02:09:09):
the lanes and the risks thatmight be occurring there. But,
you know, maybe just to try andanswer your question, I do think
incorporating a Bluetooth sealor a door switch, depending on
you know, how you're going to beshipping, those are the
solutions today that I think arethe most effective to combating
it, and, yeah, having multipleintegrations and data sources.

(02:09:29):
So for example, what we'llalways strive for as a device an
IoT agnostic company is, can weintegrate the ELD or the
telematics that are going to beon the tractor trailer? Can we
combine that with an IoT source?
So for example, if a trailer gotseparated, or if cargo got
separated, you're understandingthat separation, because we have
multiple data points in realtime on that shipment. So yes,

(02:09:51):
there are configurations that Ithink are the, you know, best in
class with, with seal and doorswitches. But then I also think
just continuing to push andincorporating more of what's
already out there into overhaul,and then we can detect any
separations or anomalies thatoccur outside of just sort of,
you know, the, I guess, the IoTdevices, or, you know, the fraud

(02:10:11):
watch. Is there any like, sortof just base level things that
companies can do to try to avoidtheir risk profile? Yeah, I
think the, you know, going tothe preventative measure, and
that's where we've really beenfocusing more of our attention
on the last couple of years,because I think we've done a
fantastic job for the intransit, A to B, once it's left,

(02:10:33):
got extensive Law EnforcementNetwork to back us up there, but
it's really about being morepreventative. So you know,
working with us to look at yourcarrier network, look at the
lanes and regions, seeing what'sthe theft profile for those for
those lanes, are you anelectronics customer who's
operating on a lane or regionthat has seen a growth in

(02:10:53):
electronics theft. So that's thebase level thing. Is just
getting ahead of it, and whatwe've termed shifting left, back
into, you know, the network, thelanes, the regions, and just as
you're setting up for maybe, youknow, q3 q4 launches of new
products or things that you knowwill be targeted. It's just
doing that work ahead of time toensure you know you're as safe,

(02:11:15):
secure as you can be. But youknow, nothing is perfect.
There's always ways that canhappen so but, but I do feel the
preventative measures are what'swhat's really important. So say
you're, you're a company, andyou you've done the hard work of
you've got the preventativemeasure. Is in place. You've
got, you know, fraud. Watch,what happens if it still gets
stolen? What happens if there'sstill an issue? Does overhaul

(02:11:37):
play a role in that? And, yeah,and look, obviously, you know,
you don't want to see thathappen. But of course, it does
happen, and that's where, youknow, I think that we've
excelled, is in response. Ithink it's a 96% recovery weight
when something does get stolen.
And we have, you know, extremelydetailed, extensive networks
globally with law enforcement. Ithink there was a theft in

(02:12:02):
Poland on a rail shipment, andwe had boots on the ground law
enforcement there within 20minutes. I think it was just
over 10 minutes. And this was inthe middle of nowhere, you know,
really out there. And that justspeaks to kind of how extensive
that network is. And so toanswer your question, what we
would typically see is an eventthat occurs in the system. So,

(02:12:23):
you know, maybe the IoT sourcescome off Route, or it's deviated
from the delivery location thatit's been moving towards, or
perhaps we see a sensor eventlike that, seal open or door
switch, things like that. And sowhat we would do at that point
is, once the event is generated,it goes in front of our security

(02:12:45):
operators team. So we kind ofhave two stages. We get a lot of
raw data into our system. Wehave over 7 billion data points
now of that raw in transit riskmonitoring data that gets
assessed by the overhaul rulesengine once something is
triggered there, that getsrouted to the appropriate
personnel. So if it's somethinglike a seal break that might go
direct to the Intelligence Team,they'll kick off their response

(02:13:08):
with law enforcement and say,Hey, we know that something bad
happened here. Get lawenforcement involved and then
respond. They kick off a sessionwhere they'll have, you know,
the intelligence team member,law enforcement contacts there,
and they'll respond and getpeople on the ground to recover
that or track that. And youknow, it's, it's really
interesting. You see some, youknow, high speed chases, and

(02:13:31):
it's pretty intense a lot, youknow, really, like I said, going
back to Fast and Furious, it'snot too far off the what does
your when something like thathappens? What does like your
company look like? Is it like awar room or everybody is, you
know, on the phone and checkingsystems? And, yeah, you know,
we've, we've got the processdown in procedure, so it's not
like something where it's an allhands on deck. We've got the
appropriate people who areworking, you know, to respond

(02:13:53):
and resolve these events. Soit's, it's pretty like
clockwork, procedural thingshappen. It goes through that
process of getting the rightperson in, in touch, monitoring,
responding to the the event. Soit's, it's really, you know,
obviously I'm on the technologyside and product side, and I
love what we've been able to do,but I'm always in awe of the law
enforcement guys and how they'vekind of built that network and

(02:14:14):
communicate. It's just superefficient. Yeah, it's just, I
think it's absolutely crazythat, you know this not crazy,
because I think fraud and justsort of cargo theft has always
existed since, you know, thedawn of man, but how it has
evolved over even just the lasthandful of years and how it
continues to evolve. And it'sjust this constant game of, like

(02:14:35):
criminals trying to, you know,one up the tech providers like
yourself, and the, you know, therisk providers, or risk
protection like overhaul. And soit's an interesting, like cat
cat and mouse game that justcontinues to evolve. Last couple
questions here, is thereanything important that you
think you should mention that wehaven't already talked about,

(02:14:56):
you know, I think also youtouched on the fundraising
there, and you know, that'swe're continuing to invest in
our AI solutions as well. And,you know, our machine learning
and data capabilities. Wecompleted an acquisition a
couple of years ago thatbasically doubled the amount of
in transit security events thatwe had in our system. And it

(02:15:17):
actually was very well timedwith Gen AI and the emergence of
that as a technology that peoplewanted to leverage, because it
made us centralize our datarepository, where, as part of
acquiring that company andbringing in that data set, we
knew we would need a morerefined and robust data
infrastructure architecture. Andso what that meant is that we

(02:15:38):
have all this data thatbasically everything that's in
the overhaul ecosystem livesthere, and then, when GPT came
about, it meant that we couldeasily pass that data back and
forth. So, you know, whilepeople are talking about AI and
how it can affect business. Youknow, it really depends on how
how good that data set is andhow rich it is, and so we were
very fortunate that we wentthrough all that effort to

(02:16:00):
centralize it just as GPTemerged, and now we're able to
pass that back and forth. So,you know, I just, I do want to
call out that today, GPT is thethe worst it'll ever be, or Gen
AI's worst. So it's important toincorporate that as much as you
can into the functionality andproducts that we're building,
because then we'll grow as thatcontinues to develop, and then,
just on the, you know, thefunding also, you know,

(02:16:23):
continuing to look at m&a, asyou know, referring to that
previous acquisition that helpedus bolster the. Security
perspective and the data set wehad there, and so we're always
looking to expand and grow intoadjacent markets and improve our
visibility and the data that wehave. So that would be something
for this year as well as wecontinue to assess what's out

(02:16:43):
there and how it can bring morevalue to what we do today, I
imagine that data migrationproject was killers. Absolutely.
Yeah, that was, how long did ittake? So we actually had a six
month timeline on it, so it wasvery hands on deck, yeah, but
you know that on theinfrastructure side, that's one
of the areas that I'm most proudof. Got a fantastic team there

(02:17:05):
that was able to, you know, getthat done, while also competing
projects that you go through asan acquisition anyways, so the
timeline was aggressive, butyeah, we've got a great team,
thankfully. That's awesome sixmonths. That's very admirable,
because I'm thinking of, like,all these different data sets
that you have in order torework, I guess, the
architecture, and then migrateall of those into that new

(02:17:25):
architecture and have a talk toan LLM like, that is a major
undertaking. Yeah, kudos to you.
I'm sure it was a nice vacationat the end of that six months,
still waiting on it. I guessthat's sort of the nature of the
the beast when it comes to fraudprevention and risk assessment
and things like that. In thisindustry, it's constantly
evolving, Yep, yeah, exactly.
And, you know, it's the data,and it's incorporating, you

(02:17:47):
know, in my opinion, humans intothat, to enrich and refine and
create that loop where thesystem is assessing the raw
data, but then you have thatenrichment. When it gets to that
law enforcement escalation, youhave somebody that's then
labeling it, tagging it, andit's going back into the system,
and it's continually improvingand making our solution more
intelligent. That's a hell of away to end it. Perfect ending.

(02:18:12):
Laura, So Jonathan, where can,where can folks follow you?
Follow your work, get maybe geta demo with overhaul, all that
good stuff. Yeah, I think overdash hall.com, that's our
marketing site. It's the bestplace to go. And then can also
follow us on LinkedIn. Awesomepleasure. Thank you very much.
Thank you.

(02:18:35):
Thanks for tuning in to anotherepisode of everything is
logistics, where we talk allthings supply chain for the
thinkers in freight, if you likethis episode, there's plenty
more where that came from. Besure to follow or subscribe on
your favorite podcast app so younever miss a conversation. The
show is also available in videoformat over on YouTube, just by
searching everything aslogistics. And if you're working

(02:18:57):
in freight logistics or supplychain marketing, check out my
company, digital dispatch. Wehelp you build smarter websites
and marketing systems thatactually drive results, not just
vanity metrics. Additionally, ifyou're trying to find the right
freight tech tools are partnerswithout getting buried in
buzzwords. Head on over tocargorex.io where we're building
the largest database oflogistics services and

(02:19:19):
solutions. All the links youneed are in the show notes. I'll
catch you in the next Episode ingo jags. You you

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