The Freight Agency Blueprint: Technology, Relationships, and the Origin of SPI Logistics

Episode Transcript
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Blythe Brumleve Milliga (00:37):
Blythe, welcome back to another episode
of everything is logistics, apodcast for the thinkers and
freight I'm your host, BlytheMilligan, and today we're doing
something a little bit differentand a whole lot of practical
we've spent a lot of timedigging into the inner workings
of what makes for a successfulfreight agent program, and it

(00:57):
always seems to circle back tothe crew at SPI logistics.
They've been a longtimesupporter of the show, and
that's because their philosophyaligns with what we talk about
here, which is real worldstrategy, smart technology and
building relationships thatactually last. Over the last
year, I've sat down with some oftheir top leadership, to include
CEO Mitch Helton, VP oftechnology as a Peralta CRO Mike

(01:20):
michlik, and even some of theirsuccessful freight agents like
Angelo frucci of freight coachlogistics. You might remember
him as one of the co foundersover at Chris jollies company,
which is also obviously freightcoach logistics. We've covered
everything from tech stacks thatprevent design fatigue to sales
strategies that don't involveblasting out a million cold
emails, but today I'm combiningall of those best of interviews,

(01:45):
the most hard hitting takeawaysfrom those conversations, into
one definitive episode. So ifyou missed any of them, now's
the perfect time to catch up onwhat you might be missing, if
you're thinking about becoming afreight agent, or if you're
already a standalone brokeragedrowning in back office work,
you probably need to hear thisepisode, because we're going to
be talking about number one, whySPI co founder Mitch Helton

(02:08):
decided to build a model thatessentially handles 70% of the
administrative work that brokershate. Number two, how, as a
Peralta, build a tech stack soflexible it lets agents use the
tools they already love, butplugs them into a centralized,
security focused hub. Numberthree, the non negotiable
importance of relationship,building empathy and making time

(02:31):
for site visits, a tried andtrue sales tactic that's a
massive winner for their agents,as shared by Mike michalick and
fellow agent, Angelo frucci. Andthen last but not least, why the
boring stuff like a solid legaland operational agreements as
some of the first things youmust nail down, especially when
starting a partnership, and whya little foresight prevents

(02:53):
massive headaches? Later, you'regoing to get a master class and
modern freight brokerage fromthe people who are actually
building it, right? So dish thebuzzwords, get out your
notebook, and let's get into thebest of SPI logistics on
everything is logistics. Welcomeinto another episode of
everything is logistics, apodcast for the thinkers in

(03:13):
freight. We are proudlypresented by SPI logistics, and
I am your host, Blythe Milligan,and in this episode, we've got a
special guest for you today, andthat is the founder and CEO,
Mitch Helton of SPI logistics.
And we're going to be talkingabout those good and those
challenging times of theentrepreneurial journey,
especially in the world offreight. And so Mitch, it's
finally, I'm finally pumped tohave you on the show, because

(03:37):
it's been a long time coming.

Unknown (03:40):
I'm happy to be here.
This is great. Now. We were

talking a little bit before we started
recording, and I had mentionedthat I was listening to your
interview with Chris jolly. Youguys had talked about a year
ago, and you I love the storythat you gave when you said that
you first started SPI, yourbusiness partner kept telling
you to leave him alone, and thatwas how you came up with the
initial idea of starting thefreight agent program. I want to

(04:10):
say, was that probably the lightbulb moment for you to start up
the freight agency for SPI,

Unknown (04:16):
was it kind of just happened upon us, because you're
referring to Jim Taggart. He wasvery good friend of mine, and
unfortunately passed away lastyear in October. But as far as
the freight brokerage wasconcerned, we're, we're co
founders in that because he Ihad, it's kind of restarted the

(04:39):
business from when we first weredoing import, importing product,
from 1979 to 8283 and then I wasin the airlines. And I did
almost five years with my unclein a travel agency. We were
doing business travel. So myfriend Jim, that was the end of

(05:04):
May, beginning of June of 1990came and I met him on the
weekend at a barbecue, and he hecalled me up on Monday morning
the following Monday, and said,Hey, I'm coming over for coffee.
So I said, okay, and he wasinterested in what I was talking

(05:27):
over the weekend, and thetrucking company he was working
for didn't look like it wasgoing to do do too well. It was
a if i. Flatbed, heavy haulcarrier here and in the West
Coast. And so he was the, he wasone of the sales or he was the

(05:50):
sales manager for the company.
And so he kind of saw thewriting on the wall and and they
were going to let him go, and hegave him a severance. So he
said, How would you like apartner? I said, Well, okay,
this is what I'm working on, youknow, more import, you know, of
goods. And he says, yeah,that's, that's good with me. And

(06:14):
so he started working with me,and then he got a call from one
of his clients, who's aninternational freight forwarder
in Canada, and they had a pulpmill that they were
disassembling for for a companyin the province of Quebec, and

(06:36):
it had to go on hundreds ofloads to the Port of Miami, and
then it was catching a ship togo to Brazil, and they were
going to reassemble it there. SoI said, Well, that's great, Jim,
where? Where's the reservationsystem for the trucks? And he
said, There, there. He justlaughed at me, because there is

(07:02):
no such thing. So I got to workin the background, and I found
out, you know, during that year,that you, if you're your own
freight broker, and you'rebooking freight, you're getting
the freight. You're getting thatrelationship with the shipper.
You're going out and finding acarrier or calling them up back

(07:24):
then, and you're, you know,finding which carrier can move
it between the two points thatyou have to move it. Unless
you're doing all essentially,you're starting to get enough
business that you got to do theinvoicing. You got to make sure
the cash flow is right. You gotto get the financing in place.
You have to do the payments tothe carriers. Then if there's a,

(07:47):
you know, issues that come up,or you got to deal with the
carriers, there's like it found,I found out 70% of our time was
spent on the administrative sidein the back office. So and he
just wanted to keep working, youknow, getting the freight and
booking it, and that was what heloved to do. So I thought, Well,

(08:08):
we tried getting more people todo that in the office, and
didn't work out. We hired acouple of people didn't work
out. So then we hired a guy, buton straight commission that knew
freight kind of like Jim, and hestarted to work out. So I

(08:30):
thought, I want more guys likeJim, and I'll set all this up in
the background. So we puttogether a model and a plan to
do that. I built a database. Webuilt our own reservation
system, basically, and set outthe care contracts from it, and

(08:51):
it followed everything through.
And in the beginning, I thought,how hard can it be? You pick up
at a drop off at B? Well,there's a whole bunch of things
between A and B that happened.
And so I built this system withoff the shelf software. And then
I thought, you know, we could dothis for other freight brokers

(09:16):
like Jim and so came up with away of connecting people well
before the internet wasavailable. And back then, if you
wanted a land you know, aconnection, direct data
connection between two officesacross the country or across
town, or whatever. Those werecosting about $100,000 for a

(09:40):
line. So I came up with gettingagain off the shelf software
where the if you want to be anagent with SPI, you had to have
a computer, you had to have aphone line, maybe two for calls,
you need to have a fax line andyou need to have a computer

(10:04):
line, day line, or actually, youdidn't need that. You needed the
three lines, but one of thephone lines, the fax and the was
used for also the computer. Sowe'd get them to get a fax mode
on their computer, and I used aprogram called PC anywhere, and
I set up computers inside ouroffice, and they would just dial

(10:26):
in and remotely control thecomputer in our office. So that
worked through till late 1990sand I. Um, yeah, in a way,
you're right. That's that's howit started. I just thought,
let's leave Jim alone, let himdo his thing, and as much of
these times possible, do it inthat work.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan (10:49):
It sounds like with your business
travel agency that a lot ofthose skills that you learned
there kind of apply to freight.
Am I off base in that thinking?

Unknown (11:00):
No, that's true a lot of the things. And I found this
as in business and as anentrepreneur, when you're
creating something new, becausethat's often what ends up
happening. You're creating a newmodel or a new system or a new
way of doing things, and thoseare the things that are most
successful, especially whenyou're doing something that's a

(11:22):
need. You know, people needthis. There's a problem, and
always coming up against it. Ifyou can solve for that, you
know, you're you're on the righttrack. And so, yes, my
experiences in the airlines Iwas I worked in when I just got

(11:43):
out of high school. I worked inthe the aircraft maintenance
side of things, but it's theparts department stores, they
called it. So if an aircraft wasdown, I had to arrange to get
the park in. If I was on thenight shift and even higher jet
or something to get the partover to where it needed to go.

(12:04):
And then, so I learned a littlebit about inventory,
warehousing, receivables,shipping.

That's exactly where I was going to go
after, after you mentioned that,I was like, Oh, wow. So you
really know that side of it,too.

Unknown (12:15):
So, so I learned a little bit about that, and a lot
of customs, you know, paperworkand that sort of thing. And then
I worked in the airlines, alsoas a baggage handler for a short
while. And then I quit all that,and I my uncle was opening up a

(12:38):
travel agency, and he's the guythat, you know, we had a
reservation system. I went downto Dallas and learned the saber
reservation system down there,and he's the guy that taught me
how to sell because we weredoing cold calls, and we're,
we're doing business travels, sowe go and see we call them up,

(12:58):
and we had our spiel. We had tomake sure it fit on the back of
a business card. Couldn't betalking too much. You had to
listen. So we just call forappointments and we go see the
people, and we say, we can book,you know, we can do this. We had
all these things we could do forthem to make it much easier to
book their travel. And we endedup doing a million dollars the

(13:20):
first year we opened the travelagency in sales, which was
pretty good for the travelagency that back then, and the
city we were in had 26 othertravel agency as well. So that
was pretty good thing that wedid. And the commissions were
shrinking back. Then the airlinewere cutting back commissions

(13:41):
percentages. So I stayed withthat till I thought, I'm going
to get back into running my ownbusiness. So that's where, you
know, we got back into thefreight brokerage at that point.

And so you probably noticed the
commission splits dwindling inthis industry, it forced you to
change careers, and that wasprobably one of the, I guess,
maybe the lessons that youlearned of keeping valuable
employees or keeping valuableagents on your staff by not
dwindling their commissionstructure.

Unknown (14:16):
In fact, we've increased it over the years. We
started out, I thought the fairway to go. You know, at first I
thought this was totally in avacuum. This is all came up in
my head,

yeah, because freight agents didn't
exist until, you know, you werereally one of the first people
to create it.

Unknown (14:36):
Well, there was American back haulers was, but
it was more an employee model,and they were all in one, you
know, big bullpen, right? But asfar as a networking with agents,
connecting on computer and usinga system like that, I think we

(14:56):
were one of the first, wow, ifnot the first to do that.

And so you mentioned with the with the
agent model, that that workingwith Jim was one of those sort
of catalysts that said youwanted to get more employees
like that, or more, you know,contractors that that worked
like that. What were some ofthose early days of did you use
your cold calling expertise tostart recruiting some of those

(15:21):
first agents for SPI

Unknown (15:24):
Yes, and believe it or not, advertising in newspapers?

Oh, wow, interesting.

Unknown (15:32):
Yeah, tell me more about that. Well, so there's
upbound. That's the cold calls.
But we also. Of tried someinbound marketing and and so,
you know, I get people contactus. There was no email back
then. So you get a phone call.
And so I was the person that wasrecord recruiter as well. So I
pretty well did all the jobs inSPI over the years as we rated

(15:56):
them, and our first guy thatcalled up was a fellow in
Portland, Oregon. Actually, JimParker was a name, and he was
moving big telephone cable reelsall around, and he joined us. I

(16:18):
did a business plan andprojections for 1992 to 96 and I
grew us from, you know, I showedgrowing us from, I think we were
doing around 1 million at thatpoint. The end of 91 that year,

(16:38):
I had us growing from that to7.8 million. And by the end of
96 we actually needed 7.7 and onthe profit side, I was a I was
100,000 off on the overall, youknow, gross sales, and I was

(17:00):
100,000 more on our profit. So Ilike to be conservative in our
cost of things, right? Reallyover. So that was pretty good to
have a projection that workedout that close four year
projection. And so Jim joined usand I and that was the first

(17:22):
guy, and then we had others joinus. And I think by 96 we had
eight or nine agencies workingwith us, all working from either
their home. Most of well, prettywell, most of them were working
from home at that point.

So very early on in the agent
model, one of the first to doit, very early on with working
from home, very early on withyour own sort of, you know,
custom built TMS system andprocesses. I'm curious as to
what were some of those earlychallenges that you knew you had
to address as you started toscale up.

Unknown (18:03):
Well, remembering the difference between profit and
cash. So we would, you know, theshippers, the customers would
pay, and you want to keep themthe receivables nice and tight.
But, you know, sometimes,especially at certain times of

(18:23):
the year, like going intoJanuary, they slow down. But
your carriers want to be paid.
And to keep your carriers withyou, you want to pay them fast.
So, you know, today we we pay acarrier as soon as that they're
delivered, they can get paid ifthey want to. So back then, we
were doing the same thing. So Ifound that we had to get some

(18:46):
financing in place so that wecould, as we grew, we could
maintain our payments to thecarriers as long as the
receivables were were there tosupport it and coming in, and
then you have to watch yourcosts. Now, the nice thing about
freight brokerage operation,especially the the agencies, and

(19:06):
that is, you know, it's quitescalable. So you know, any, any
freight broker needs to keeptheir hard costs to a minimum.
And so, in fact, that's one ofthe reasons why we've leased
offices instead of purchasethem, and because you can scale
up and down. So we've beenthrough a number of downturns.

(19:30):
You know, 2008 was a big one atthat point. We're at about 60
million in that year, going into2008 by 2009 six months later,
we had gone down to about 38million. Oh, wow. And there was
a little bit of slow, slowgrowth from 2001 to two, you

(19:52):
know, 2004 we we'd made it by2000 we were around 25 million
in sales, and we had, by thatpoint, probably 13 or 14 agents
working with us and I, we haddeveloped a new software system

(20:22):
in in 97 I could see the writingon the wall. They were talking
about, why to K? I rememberhearing about that. Yes, there
are a lot of software databasesystems that were going to die.
Because the date was going to goback to 1900 so we we had to
rebuild so the system, I hired asoftware company under our

(20:47):
design and my instructions todevelop a new system, and we
launched that in December 1, in19 nine, a month before, why UK?
How about you were sweating?

(21:08):
Well, we had to do it. I had allthe operation side of things
working. We could book thefreight. We could handle all of
that, and we kept all our agentsgoing, but we still hadn't
finished the accounting batch,so we started with that, and we
quickly got that going, goinginto January. So that system, I

(21:33):
took that, and I thought, youknow, this really works well. We
had a meeting. My by that pointwe, there were three of us that
that were this and we had ameeting. And the the one guy
wanted to say, we're spendingtoo much money. We got white

(21:56):
the.com crash was starting. Wegot a drop. We had an on, on in
house developer. He said, Wegotta drop, you know, cut costs,
so we gotta stop working on thesoftware. And, you know, we got
what we need. I said to him,software is never done. Ain't

(22:20):
that the truth, but if I findanother project to help pay for
our developers. So what I did isI went out to a friend who had a
trucking operation, and theypaid their carriers by a
commission on the on what, howthey that's how they got paid,
instead of by the mile. And Isaid to the manager there, who

(22:40):
was a friend of mine, hey, Igave you a system back in 1994
Would you like a new system? Shesaid, Sure. So they looked at
it, and I managed to get somemoney to pay to cut our the
costs in half on the developer.
And then I took that idea and Istarted a company called
tailwind transportation softwarefor that, and that was 2002 and

(23:02):
we sold that in. It was aclient, server based system
where you had the company, andwe built it for carriers, to
start with carriers and brokers,but it was a system that was

(23:26):
client server based, so you hadto install your own server in
your office and work within yournetwork, but it would also work
remotely, just with theInternet. So because that was
the system all our agents wereusing, we used to be switching
over that, and that worked quitewell. Then we grew that. We

(23:46):
converted to a software as aservice in 2015 so those first
number of years, what's that?
2014 2015 those first 12 or soyears, we brought on about 460

(24:07):
trucking companies and freightbrokerage companies using the
system. And then when we soldit, we converted. We had
converted it from 2014 to 2015we converted to a software as a
service. It's all web based, andsuccessfully did. It was very
difficult for all the other TMSsystems at the time to go from

(24:29):
their legacy client server stillis web based, and it still is
for many of them, but we managedto do it. It wasn't our first
try. It was our like a fourthtry, because it was trying to do
that. Since 2006 I could seethat that would be an
opportunity. But we did it, andwithin that marketing alone, we

(24:52):
managed to by 2020, when we soldit to on Vasey technologies, who
was two years later, two halfyears later, bought by wise
tech, which is big tech companythat has freight forwarder

(25:12):
software and now all kinds ofsoftware under their belt. So
tailwind is now part of Westernand when we sold it in 2020, we
had over 700 companies come onto the the web based system. So
in that short period of timethat was that, that was the we

(25:34):
bought almost doubled companiesin. In that timeframe. So it was
a

good yeah. I mean, I'm listening to
all of the you were really soearly on in a lot of these
different technological advancesthat are commonplace to today.
Does it sort of blow your mindto see how far logistics has
come as far as technologyadoption,

Unknown (26:01):
yeah, there's, there's a lot more coming, really, I
think with, well, with AI,there's, there's new things
we've adapted to. Buildingsoftware has changed a lot from
the old ways you did it writingcode today at SPI you know we

(26:22):
were on tailwind. Sped was ontailwind up till 20 we switched
we switched over to ribanova,because we could manage and
configure more of it. We hadoutgrown tailwind, is tailwind
was good for middle, middle andmedium size companies, but by

(26:44):
that point, we had outgrowntailwind. We've got a really
good team, a management team,executive team, well, everybody
at tailwind is great, reallygood support so that we've
developed that we invested inthat I, I was working a lot with

(27:10):
tailwind through the years, From22,004 actually, through till,
you know, 2020 really. So I hadhired Joe Chandler to join us
back in 2015 and he was, he didan excellent job putting, you
know, taking the people thatwere good to keep, and adding

(27:33):
more people to the team. So weinvested in that. We invested in
technology, and that was one ofthe switchovers to revivanova.
Now it can't do everything forus. So today, instead of
building a software TMS where itdoes has to do everything and do
all the integrations, today, wedone something different. We've

(27:58):
built an internal datawarehouse. It's got its own API,
and we take the best of breed ofany of the systems that we want,
like try and pay for payingcarriers, revanova, for the
basic TMS. We have an LTL systemwe work with. We got different
tracking systems we work withfor shipment tracking. And

(28:22):
there's probably you you'reprobably aware of all the
different things available tofreight brokerage companies out
there, but you know, we've gotat least 25 different systems
that are all connected throughour central data warehouse, and
we've built the the tools. To beable to connect these different
systems together. If they don'ttalk to each other, we make them

(28:44):
talk to each other, but we getthis all the data running
through our central system, andwe've got it so fine tuned to
the point where, with ourinternal dev team, where an
integration with the complexity,where it took maybe three months
to do three years ago, AI, wecould do it in a week. So that

(29:11):
allows SPI to provide exactlywhat the freight broker needs,
the agent needs. So if itdoesn't matter what mode of
transport they're used to doing,or what kind of customers they
have, what kind of freightthey're being what, you know,
the system that's best designedfor that, we can provide it to

(29:32):
them.

And that's one of the because we've
done, you know, interviews witha lot of the SPI executive team
and a lot of the freight agents.
And one of the most popularepisodes we've ever done is with
as a Peralta, who works in itfor SPI. And he was talking
about how that central databaseis so important because, you
know, there could be freightagents that want to use Revan

(29:54):
Nova as a TMS, or want to useanother preference for maybe
their CRM, or, you know, someother different technology
stack, but they're able toalmost plug and play into SPI
system, where the onboarding isreally quick and they can stay
on the programs that they'refamiliar with, or they have the
option to upgrade to a tool likerevenova, or maybe some of these

(30:15):
other systems that you guys havewith SPI that they have been
wanting, that these freightagents have been wanting to try,
and so I think that that's sucha unique approach that I'm not
sure that other freight agenciesare tackling, and I think that
it sort of speaks to how thecompany was originally formed.
You. You guys have always been,you know, kind of establishing

(31:32):
what the baseline looks like,but then moving the goal posts
to where it's, you know, evenbetter and even better. And so
I'm curious as to with, youknow, over 40 years that SPI has
been in business, you know, allof the advancements that you
guys have taken, how have youavoided some of the more common
entrepreneurial pitfalls of youknow, the paralysis by analysis

(31:55):
or decision fatigue of which wayto go were there? Were there any
times that you were weren't sureabout which direction to take?

Unknown (32:08):
I mean, of course, that's that's happened, but you
meet the challenges as they comealong and and, you know,
business is really about notreally seeing things as
problems, but more aschallenges, because there's,
there's always a solution. So,and I've, I've always been that

(32:29):
kind of a person is looking forthe solution. So when I see a
child, you know, problem,instead of getting focused on
the problem to know, you know,evaluate what the problem is
exactly, but really with thefacts. If you you look at it,

(32:51):
analyze it, if you can come upwith a plan around it or to
solve it, then everything'sokay. It's not a problem
anymore. It's not a problemanymore. It's just a challenge.
And now, now you learnsomething, and it helps to solve
other problems.

Do you think the, I don't want to say,
the Pro, or the challenges thatfreight agents face today are
drastically different from, youknow, 10 years ago? Or do you
think it's, you know, it's kindof about the same. It's all
solving problems.

Unknown (33:28):
It is solving problems.
They're solving problems fortheir their clients, you know,
the shippers they work for.
They're they're solving problemseven when they're working in a
partner up with, you know,carrier, carrier partner who's
is trying to serve the broker,get the thing done, and they're
working together. So they'resolving problems. You know,

(33:52):
every hour, every day of theweek, as far as the business
side of things for freightbrokerage companies, yeah, I
think it is a little morechallenging today, because
there's a lot more coming at us.
There's, there's all this newshiny tech coming out. You know,
AI is the thing and, and there'sAI that helps you with your

(34:15):
emails and AI helps you withyour phone calls. But you know
which one, it kind of reminds meof the.com era, where there was
all this new software comingout, and it was the greatest,
latest, best thing, and newshiny object to look at. So
there's those are challengesjust making the right choice.
And I think my experience withbuilding or designing, I'm not a

(34:38):
coder. Oh, how to code software,but I just know how it's
supposed to work. I'm I'm goodwith systems and processes and
and that sort of thing, and andI could tell when, you know,
when there was a problem, whereit was a people problem, you
know, or this is not really,they're they're frustrated and

(35:01):
they're at each other's throats,but this is really a system
problem we got to solve here,so, but for freight brokers
today than compared to 10 yearsago. There's, there's more
choice. There's more to choosefrom. There are tons of TMS
systems on the market now thatwent there before. Many of them,
you know, young, new systems. Sothey, they, they've got, they've

(35:26):
got to mature, because there'sso much more to designing a
software, TMS system. There's somany different things that go on
you have to account for, and wewere lucky enough to have that
when we started tailing from theexperience of SPI so we were
able to make an interface thatwas straightforward, simple, not

(35:49):
too many clicks, not too manypages and all that, and get your
job done fast. The challengestoday are that the costs of, for
example, load board hasescalated exponentially,
especially in the last five,five or six years, and I just

(36:12):
see some of the you know, these,these bigger load boards not
keeping up with technology,because technology today isn't
the latest stuff that you had.
It's it's now getting all theselittle apps and programs working
together. And the whole industryis changing. The connection, the

(36:39):
communication is changing. Youknow, you're now having direct
connections with the driver and,you know, the the visibility on
where they are, and being ableto post out what loads or
freight you have available ischanging. So it's and being able

(37:02):
to see what's coming and seeinghow that will apply around the
corner is very difficult. So Ithink today, for a standalone
freight brokerage, it's, it's,it's a difficult thing because
your your technology costs haveescalated. Getting the right
system like you can spend a tonof the technology, but if you

(37:25):
got the wrong system for yourbusiness, it's, it's, it doesn't
help. It creates big problems.

How do you know if you've chosen the
right technology, technologypartner, or even just business
partner? Because I'm of theopinion that, and this is
slightly related, but I'm of theopinion that becoming a freight
agent is one of the bestpathways for entrepreneurial

(37:52):
growth in all of logistics. Butis it right for everyone,
considering the technologicalinvestment that you have to
make, considering, you know,maybe the brokers that you have
to work for to build up yourbook of business, how important
are all of these things, and isit, is it ever the wrong
decision to become a freightagent? Or maybe what makes it

(38:15):
the right decision for someoneto become a freight agent?

Unknown (38:19):
Well, all I can no do is look at the past experience
and statistics compared tostandalone freight brokers that
we saw from the data from Tia,freight brokers that do 16

(38:43):
million and under which is thevast majority of them out there,
standalone freight brokers,compared to
SPI agencies, our agencies do 40to 50% better in sales and
profitthan the standards, and I think

(39:03):
there's some good reasons forthat. We we work with best
practices. We're continuouslyimproving. We're investing the
big bucks into technology, andof course, we're going to also
get the most efficiency out ofit. So we're going to, you know,

(39:24):
we've got that experience to topick the right things and apply
the the best for our agents andthe you know, remember that
thing about spending 70 or 80%of your time once you if You're
a standalone is administrative,the back office, then you know,

(39:49):
what's that costing you versusgetting, you know, 30% or your
70% right? SPI, 30% as far as ifyour margins are there, and
everything that's that's whatyou're going to get. And we do
go up to 75% if their marginsare are good and strong, and the

(40:13):
volume is there. So for that,we've seen a lot of our we've
actually had offices that haveconverted from their standalone,
you know, freight brokeragecompany, to becoming an agency
attached to the SPI logisticsnetwork, and they've thrived.
I'm very proud to say many ofour agents offices, the even the

(40:37):
standalone one person offices,earn more money than I do a
year.

That's awesome. You don't really hear
that a lot in business ingeneral.

Unknown (40:54):
I just, I it's just, well, I'm proud to say that. I
like to say that.

Well, I think you bring up a good
point, because for a lot ofentrepreneurs, and I can, you
know, speak this from my ownbusiness, sometimes just having
the help is such a mentalrelease that it allows you to be
able to focus, or have theenergy and the bandwidth to
focus on the things that you'rereally good at communicating
with your customers, talking tothem, building those

(41:23):
relationships. You can't reallyscale that, but you could
probably scale, you know, sometranscription service. Services,
or, you know, email overload andthings like that, is, is that
maybe a safe assumption that,you know, well, not a safe
assumption. I think it's a factthat you guys are, you know,
providing this level of help tofolks who started off, you know,

(41:46):
wanting to do everythingthemselves, but then started to
realize there is power indelegation,

Unknown (41:54):
and it's, it's, it's, you know, the services that we
do for them, but we alsoprovide, you know, the best of
technology. We also try toprovide the best service. You
know, half of the the staff wehave here at the head office is
just for supporting agents, sowe're available to help them.

(42:19):
And then there's the financialsupport. In other words, you
know, we're handling theagencies get paid weekly, and
they get paid after the job isdone. As soon as the the thing
is delivered, it's counted, sothe very next week, they get

(42:41):
money, get paid for that. Sothere's the cash flow thing,
there's the risk. You know, howmany clients, if you're a
standalone agency, you got to dothe credit on your customers.
And I learned back early on,credit risk on your customers is

(43:02):
the thing that will kill you ifyou don't manage your so we do
all the checks up front. We takecare of the credit approvals for
all the agency offices, and thatprotects them, that reduces
their risk. And we take care ofthe carriers paying the
carriers. We deal with claims.
You know, you have a claim comeup, or you have something that

(43:22):
happens as an agent, if you havesomething that happens that you
have never dealt with before,we've dealt with it. You know,
we've got over 60,000 carriersas a resource in our database
that we work with at one time oranother. These are not just
carriers. We brought them onbecause they work for us and so

(43:42):
also in help in dealing withsituations with carriers and and
all of that to make sure thatthey can service their their
clients, the shipper clients thebest, and they do because it's
their own business. They'rethey're not going to hesitate to

(44:06):
pick up a call from their clienton Saturday night at midnight,
because there's a problem, andyou're not going to necessarily
get that with a lot of employeebased

Blythe Brumleve Milli (44:18):
logistics companies. Yeah, the agents
genuinely care about theirrelationships with their
customers, because they knowit's, it's very much you can't
eat if you don't kill and notto, you know, say you're going
to kill your customers oranything, but it's one of those
things where, if you lose acustomer, especially as an agent

(44:38):
that could make or break you,

Unknown (44:40):
yeah, well, kill the problem. Yeah,

solve the problem that you know that
think that's been a resounding,you know, sort of lesson
throughout this and when I wasreading through our pre show
document, you had mentioned theimportance of goal setting. And
I'm curious as to what are theor the differences in goals, if
you are sort of a newer agentversus a more established agent,

(45:07):
are the goals kind of the same,or are they different?

Unknown (45:11):
They change over time, but it's really, really
important for you to have startwith a vision of what you want
to do and and then set a goalfor what it looks like. And by
when, now, you know, peoplethink, Oh, we got to reach that
goal by that date. But the fact,the most important thing about

(45:34):
goal is it sets action, setsmotion. You know, your actions
and a path direction. So quitehonestly, if you're shooting for
the stars, you probably going tothe moon, right? So if you set a

(45:55):
goal, you're actually going tostart stepping forward. And if
you you know, you mentioned thatanalysis paralysis, if, if
you're just sitting there. Okay,now, how do I get there and
figure out the strategy? And youspend all your time figuring out
strategy. You're frozen. You'renot moving. So, you know that's

(46:19):
in the beginning. That's thebiggest thing. Is to set a goal.
So if your goal is, you know, ifyou if you don't like where
you're at right now, you. Thensay goal to will make a
difference, at least it gets youmoving and the action. So for

(46:42):
you know, I've seen over theyears for independent one person
freight brokerage, they've gotto set those targets and their
goals, and they're going to beat a certain level, you a
certain point, you hit aceiling. And you know, we can
help increase that, the heightof that ceiling with the

(47:04):
services and support we give.
You know best practices and howto sell and best practices and
on operations, and technologyand the new system, the new
things on you know that arecoming out and managing your
clients, as far as the cash andand all of that. But then
there's the we can provide somesupport in, maybe your

(47:29):
operations a little bit to helpyou get to the next level, or
finding the right person to comein. And maybe they're doing the
the the delivery and and thosetypes of, you know, follow ups
with the carrier. I uh, thenthere's the next level, whereas

(47:53):
you're actually hiring people,and you're growing, and that's
probably going to go to threeto, you know, four people with
you. You start with one andmaybe two or three more, and you
get to another level. And thenyour your goals start changing
about, you know, I can get this,this big customer, and I need

(48:17):
staff to do it. Then you getinto being an office that's
that's doing 1020, 30 million ayear, and you've got to, you've
got a team with you inside youroffice, and they're all
operations people, or a salesrep, awesome operations people.
And so it allows you to dreamwhen you can see a path to

(48:43):
getting to that first goal andthe next one and the next one.
And it allows you to visualizebigger things.

And I think too it leads to failing
faster, because there's nogreater lesson than when you
lose money. And when you losemoney, you get better. And I
think when you're setting goals,sometimes you know it's you have
to see the force for the trees.
And just because, you know, acouple of those trees didn't
work out and aren't stillliving, doesn't mean that the

(49:14):
rest of the forest is bad. Andso I think, as if I'm reading
between the lines of what you'resaying is, is set the goals, set
the action plan to get there,and your goals might be
different than somebody who'sbeen doing this for 15 years,
but it doesn't mean it's notworth doing, putting in the
effort and putting

Unknown (49:35):
in the work. It's just as important. Yeah, it's just as
valuable too. And it's, it'sthere after that. You know what
you thought in your head?
Software is like that. Oh, wecan build this in six months.
No, can't, but you're brave asyou can I'm

Blythe Brumleve Milli (49:53):
currently going through that right now
with the project I thought wasgoing to launch in August, and
here we are.

Unknown (49:59):
Yeah, so it's exactly not doing that in another
business where I thought we'vebeen running last March and
we're just doing it this way.
But yeah, it's, it's trial anderror. It's just the important
thing is the action is makingthose steps forward and heading
down a path. Maybe you're goingto hit a tree. You'll figure out

(50:19):
a way around it.

Yes, maybe not. Maybe don't focus on
that forest for the trees. Maybego around that forest if you're
skiing. All right. Now, now,Mitch, we've talked a lot about
sort of the evolution of freightbrokerage, freight agents, the
technology that supports themboth. I'm curious as to what
sort of the market looks like inyour eyes, as we you know, head

(50:47):
into 2025, head into the newyear, there it feels like
there's much more optimism inthe industry. Are you kind of
feeling that and seeing that aswell?

Unknown (50:56):
Yeah, I would have hoped, like I saw everything
that happened through 2122 andthings peaked, and then 23
everybody had jumped in themarketplace, and then they were
failing, and that really broughtfreight rates down. And I would

(51:20):
have thought they would havecome back. Many of us did. Would
have thought that they wouldhave come back, maybe this year
2024 they did a little. But notto the extent that we thought. I
think, though we're probablyfinally going to see some more

(51:43):
improvement in 2025 I think 2025is going to be a pretty good
year, and lots of opportunities.
The marketplace is changing. Ithink you're going to see maybe
a little more consolidationlogistics companies in the
marketplace. As far asindependent freight brokerages,

(52:03):
I think there's big, bigopportunities for them to maybe
join a network. And if they'reconsidering a network, I'd
really like to check out SPI butyou know, we've proven that they
do much better. And they'restill independent. They're still
still their business. They'rejust part of a network, and

(52:23):
they've got all of the theydon't have to focus on what kind
of software to get or all ofthis stuff we're going to we're
going to make sure that they getthe best of what's out there,
and the service as well,

Blythe Brumleve Mill (52:37):
especially because, you know, with the one
of the the past things, thatAnita, who is SPI, she's in
charge of HR, and, you know,more of like the people
relationships within thecompany. And she mentioned on
that episode about how, youknow, SPI doesn't have to
compete as far as, or they don'thave the agent saturation that

(52:57):
maybe some other agent programsmight have. And I think that
that is one of those veryimportant things as you're
thinking about, you know, howare you going to grow in 2025
and I think that that's, that'ssomething really strong to
consider, is, if you arepartnering with a company, are
they going to be able to growwith you? Because I think you
also said, I had in my notesthat you said in the in the

(53:19):
interview with Chris jolly thatyet you have to be careful who
your partners are. And so Ithink that you you have laid
out, you know, all of the reallygood reasons of why. You know,
SPI is a great partner to workwith, especially within the
freight industry, and hearingabout all of the things that you
guys invested in early on, orvery new to the game and all of

(53:41):
these,

Unknown (53:43):
yeah, I realized early, early on, and you know the story
now that you know our mandate isto help our agencies grow.
That's it simple as that. Wewant them to thrive. And that's
what we started out with, thevery beginning with Jim.

And that is, I feel like that is the
the sound clip that I want tostart off the show with, that's
going to be a sound bite that weclip in and throw it up on
social media, because it has theethos has remained true
throughout the, you know, the 40plus years that SBI has been in
business now, Mitch is, as wesort of round out this
conversation. Is there anythingthat you think is important to

(54:28):
mention that we haven't alreadytalked about?

Unknown (54:31):
Well, we're, I think we've talked a lot things you
brought up, things from thepast, from other other
interviews as well. Well, we'recontinuing to grow. We're, we're
looking at ways we can helpindependent brokerage companies
also join the network. And ifthey're interested, they can

(54:55):
contact us. But I think it'sgood for the whole industry. The
more that you know independentpeople are involved, running,
being that that go to person forin freight brokerage in the
industry, they provide a veryimportant role. I mean, when I

(55:18):
started, I think freight brokersmade up less than 2% of the
marketplace, and today, I thinkit's getting close to 30, or
maybe more, I don't know, butbut, you know, freight brokers
going to focus a 100% on theirclient, the shipper, and no

(55:38):
matter what kind of freightthey're moving or whatever they
have, whereas a carrier canfocus, the carriers focus even
though they they say it's ontheir customer, the truth is,
it's on that truck, and Where'sthat truck and where, where can
I get freight to put on thattruck? Because they got to keep
it moving full as much aspossible. So I think it's good

(56:01):
for the whole industry, and it'sgot to be integrity there and
fairness in in the marketplace.

I think that that is a perfect
place to end this conversation,because I'm going to throw up a
bunch of links in the show notesto where folks can listen to
your conversation with Chrisjolly, where they can listen to
your previous conversations withessay as I, as I mentioned
earlier, and then also toconnect with you and SPI if
they're interested in growingtheir a. Agency, or even

(56:31):
starting out to become an agentin 2025 can't speak enough good
things about SPI and workingwith you guys and the support
that you provide me as just, youknow, a podcaster, you know,
working out in Florida versusyou know that what you guys are
all doing, you know, sort ofnorth of us and in the United
States as well. So I appreciateyou. The audience appreciates

(56:53):
you, and thank you so much foryour time.

Unknown (56:56):
Jay, well, thank you, Blythe. Much appreciated.

Welcome into another episode of
everything is logistics, apodcast for the thinkers in
freight. I'm your host, BlytheMilligan, and we are proudly
presented by SPI logistics. Andon today's show, we have the co
founder of freight coachlogistics and Angelo fruit, I
only said Anthony, I'm sorry,does it really, yeah, well,

(57:20):
we're going to be talking abouthow, you know, in our pre show
document, which you filled out,which I have every guest fill
out, kind of gives me a littlebit of background insight,
before we have the, You know, aconversation between the two of
us. And in that document, youtalk about leaving corporate
America and the challenges andthe rewards and all that good
stuff of leaving corporateAmerica to join the freight

(57:42):
industry. But I find itfascinating that you did it in
probably the worst time infreight history, during a
recession, during the you know,the challenges of a down market,
but I also think that that'swhy, you know a lot of folks
will find value in this episode,is that you know you in a time
where folks are questioning whythey're even working in this

(58:02):
industry, you, alongside yourbusiness partner, Chris jolly,
who is friend of the show,podcast friend, of course, too.
You guys decide to open abusiness and you're killing it.
So welcome to the show.

Unknown (58:14):
Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Okay,

so let's talk about that little bit
of a pre I want to know what youwere doing in work before you
decide what was your corporateAmerica job that you were doing
beforehand?

Unknown (58:25):
Yeah, so I was a process engineer for medical
devices. There's a huge marketup here in Minnesota. So, you
know, I started working on leadsand pacemakers, went into
catheters, and kind of stayed inthat vascular market. My role as
a process engineer was an r&dengineer. Would make 10
products, and then I wouldfigure out how to make 10,000

(58:45):
and then validate it, make sureeverything that got out was
good, and get the line ready formanufacturing, and then pass it
along to the manufacturing team.

Oh, wow. So you had the whole, like,
sort of shipper side of things,you know, kind of that shipper
point of view worked out prior.

Unknown (59:00):
Well, that's kind of how we had talked about it, I
mean, so, I mean, this was all,like, on mechanical assemblies,
but it was that kind of mindsetthat Chris was, like, I've got
an idea and you know, how toreplicate it again and again and
again. And that kind of startedthe conversation years before
this had happened. And yeah, itwas interesting. So we've been
talking about it. And then Iwent to a startup, and it's

(59:20):
funny, like the Lord works indifferent ways. I told myself
that was gonna be my last w2 andthat's what happened, not in the
plan that I wanted. It didn'twork out with the startup, which
is all right, but yeah, I wasdriving home, and I was like,
Chris, are we doing this? I'llpreface this. I had a two month
old our first one. I was like,are we doing this? And he's
like, timing is not good. I'mlike, he goes, let's do it. And

(59:42):
then we obviously put a lot ofplanning in, because that's what
I do with the business plans andall that nerd stuff. And so
yeah, we put it together. Iasked my wife if she trusted me,
and she said, yep. And so wewent for it.

Wow.
So two month old wife has said,Okay, you that that's good, that
that is a very trusting wife.

Unknown (01:00:03):
Yeah, very trusting especially, I mean, I had good
engineering corporate salary, Ihad my dream job, Dream title,
all that stuff. But, yeah, Ireally wanted, I'd always wanted
to do it. I'd done a smallstartup years ago, like a
Kickstarter deal that we kindof, you know, another friend
dipped our toe in. Learned a lotthere. But, like, I'd always
wanted that, and this was, I wasjust really kind of having a

(01:00:24):
good point, like, I could callfive friends, get a few
interviews, probably get anotherjob, and then, you know, keep
doing the products again andagain. And it was fun. I enjoyed
it, but, yeah, I just reallywanted to do it on my own. And I
mean, not to plug them too much.
I don't want to build his egoup. But watching Chris build a
successful business, I was like,if he could do it, I can do it.
I've known him my whole life. Itwas just like a chance to work

(01:00:46):
with him. And you know, wetalked about our relationship,
what we like to do. And the goodnews is, our brains, our values,
are aligned, but our brains workin completely different ways, so
we really haven't overlapped onthat. And it's just been, it's
been a great experience since,well, I

Blythe Brumleve Mill (01:01:02):
definitely want to get into the
relationship with Chris, becauseChris is a, you know, a longtime
friend of the show. We got intofreight podcasting around the
same time, and so he's been areally big, confident or
confidant in helping take thisshow and really go fully
independent back in January2023, and so it's been, it's
been fantastic. And you know, Itook a lot of advice from him.

(01:01:24):
And before we talk about Chris,I did have one curious question,
why? Why? Is because your base?
In Minnesota. So where why is, Iguess, the medical device. Why
is that such a big thing inMinnesota?

Unknown (01:01:38):
Yeah, Medtronic, and Earl Bakker and those guys.
Well, he started Medtronic, butthey got started up here with
the first pacemaker. And thatspawned into, you know, all
these companies and, you know,kind of like, look at, like,
Silicon Valley, you know, acouple guys started there, and
then everyone who went there waslike, Oh, I have an idea. So
there's really just, I mean,between, like, the pacemaker

(01:02:00):
cardiac world and valves to thecardiovascular shirt, people
just spawned off, and thetechnology and infrastructure is
up here. So I mean, everythingfrom big fortune 100 companies
all the way down to startups inthe medical devices all around
here, and the suppliers are inthe area. And, yeah, it's just a
big it's kind of just a medicaldevice hub, lot of research at

(01:02:21):
the Mayo Clinic and things likethat. So it, besides just how,
like, probably Medtronic andthem getting started here,
that's probably the biggestthing

Blythe Brumleve Milligan (01:02:29):
that's super interesting. Because, I
mean, we're, we've done a fewepisodes, you know, with the big
promise of bringingmanufacturing back to the United
States, and what does that looklike? And I would have never
have assumed that that Minnesotawould kind of be a, you know, a
US hub for medical devices. Sothat's super interesting to
know. Thank you for sharingthat. So let's get into you

(01:02:50):
mentioned knowing Chris yourwhole life. I imagine you, you
guys grew up together. Give usthe backstory on on how you, you
guys became friends, yeah?

Unknown (01:02:57):
So he's my cousin on our mom's side, so literally,
yeah, since we were in diapersand you know, he's my sister,
like all of our siblings are onthe same age, so us and another
set of cousins would basicallyrotate houses, especially in the
summer, for the weekends, andyeah, so we it's why I always
well, we used to fight a littlebit. We were younger, and then

(01:03:19):
we got old enough to hurt eachother. And they were like, Hey,
should we stop doing this? Andthen at some point in life,
we're like, hey, let's do abusiness together. But it was
fun. You know, grew up together,especially like, his property
was awesome. And then we go upto our cabin all the time and
like, fish and stuff like thatup there. So got to know him a
lot. And then stayed in contactall through college, when I went

(01:03:40):
down to Iowa State, and kind ofafter college, we hung out, we
get together on weekends andstuff like that. And then when
he moved up to Reno, I was like,I'm going to miss you, but I'm
excited for you to go and seewhat happens. And it's kind of
been, we've just stayed incontact the whole time, and, you
know, on our careers and lifeand things like that. And I said
we'd always kind of talked aboutdoing it, and then it was one of

(01:04:01):
those, like, and I talked to alot of entrepreneurs, and
they're like, the timing wasn'tgood, but some life event
happened that wasn'tpredictable, and it was like,
now or like, either go or stayin the life you were doing, and
we decided to go,

and that was your first child. I'm
assuming you, I'm not, I'm notsure how many children you have,
but you said you had a two monthold at home. And so I would
imagine that would be the, Iguess, the motivation of being
like, let's do this. And becauseI do feel like entrepreneurial
journey, you, you have to havethat motivation of where your

(01:04:34):
net, where is your next checkgoing to come from? And maybe am
I, if I'm just kind of puttingtwo things together here, that
the, you know, with the wifetrusting you and the two month
old at home, that that was allthe motivation that you needed.
Yeah.

Unknown (01:04:48):
I mean, that is definitely a big motivation. It
wasn't. I mean, the finance hasto happen because, like, we like
this house, but it was morelike, you know, what do I want
to be? Like, what do I likehaving a daughter first, like,
and all of a sudden, holdingher, it's like, you know, who do
I want her to bring home? Andit's like, I need to be that
person. And like, what do I wantin life? And they said I had a

(01:05:09):
like, it was a great life, greatcareer, great people around me,
but I just wanted to do more.
And it was, this was just thechance and the time to just go
for it and see what I can reallydo with myself. Knowing that
there's gonna be, it's gonna besacrifices and some hardships,
but also, like, when they getolder, they'll be able to see
someone living the life thatthey want to live, and whether
they want to go on logistics ornot, that's like, well beyond

(01:05:30):
it. But I want them to be ableto see, hey, you can go after
and do what you want and changelives and make the world a
better place. And that wasreally, like, the big motivation
behind it as well.

And so when you're talking with Chris,
like, how does that? How doesthat? I guess conversation get
started. I know you had talkedabout it, you know, here and
there. Like, growing uptogether, I'm not sure did you
ever Did you always know that itwas going to be a freight
related business?

Unknown (01:05:56):
No, we had no idea. So we didn't start talking about
doing a business until we wereadults. I mean, he went into
logistics when he moved out toReno, and loved it. And really,
like really, did well forhimself there. I was doing very
well in engineering. So we werehaving fun doing that. We'd meet
up in different cities andthings like that, living that
life in the 20s. And it wasreally, I think, when he started

(01:06:19):
the podcast, and it startedgoing also like that was when we
both kind of realized, like,hey, we can do this. Like, it's
possible to go create somethingwithout a w2, paycheck, bi
weekly. He's like, it's hard.
And I'm not going to say it waseasy for him, because I remember
those conversations, but it wasjust like, we can, we can do
this. And that was when westarted to put it down. You
know, he was talking aboutsuccess that other people were

(01:06:41):
having, especially with hishelp. So he believed in his
system strongly and in the fray,not just the podcast. And it
was, it started seeing thatbelief, and that was kind of
what we touched on earlier, waslike, Hey, I've got a good
system. I can help people, andthen, like, we could do in the
my way to systemize, and I loveoperations and counting beans

(01:07:03):
and things like that. He alwaysdrifts on me for having an MBA.
And I'm like, that's fine. Youdon't need one. I got it. But
like, and, I mean, we'll get tothat a point like, I need
someone like that as much as Ithink I'm this big visionary,
and I have a vision he is that,right, and then I can be that
executing hand, and we're bothexecuting now, because you have
to. But yeah, it was just westarted actually putting it

(01:07:26):
together. Like, hey, what wouldthis look like? What numbers?
And I wrote out a super detailedbusiness plan, and it's like,
all right, this isn't just ahobby, but the real motivation
that was behind him was like,you know, carriers getting
mistreated, smaller customersgetting mistreated, employees
going through the ringer onthings. He's like, we can build
something really good that helpsa lot of lives. And that was the

(01:07:47):
big motivation, that was kind ofwhat sold me on. It not just the
size of the industry, but justlike, alright, if we're going to
do this, because we both hadhighs and lows throughout our
careers, and it's like, what canwe do to make a place that
people want to be at? And thatwas the that was probably the
bigger motivation than what theactual thing was. Because I'm a
builder, and I love systems andputting that together, and I

(01:08:08):
love freight, but like, it'sreally that building and the
why, and that was, that was whenit got serious. So we, we didn't
put a business plan together,but we kind of had a feeling
like, at some point this isgoing to happen.

So what were those first, I guess,
systems that you establishedbecause, I mean, Chris comes
from logistics, and so I wouldimagine that he would have
known, you know, a lot of maybethe how to move freight, of
course, but then running abusiness is a whole other layer
on top of, you know, just beinga broker inside of a big
brokerage. So that's typicallythat the funnel system of folks

(01:08:42):
who come into this industry,they come fresh out of college,
they become a freight broker.
They have to do a million coldcalls, and then maybe one day
they're successful enough thatthey can start up a freight
agency, but you guys kind of gotto skip that. Bs, well, Chris
was a

Unknown (01:08:55):
freight broker for years. Yeah, he did, he did
that. Bs,

so he learned that, you know, sort of
that side of things. So I'malways curious about, especially
people who come from other, Iguess, industries and then come
into logistics. What were someof those systems that you
established first that madesense? Because I would imagine
that some systems maybe didn'tmake a whole lot of sense, but

(01:09:19):
maybe you thought they did. Whatwere some of those first ones
that were that were reallycrucial?

Unknown (01:09:25):
It was, yeah, so the first ones, and I learned a lot
from the initial Kickstarter Idid, and then grad school it
was, it was making sure we had agood legal team in place, and
I'm lucky to have a good networkup here, getting everything
planned, because when, whenyou're in peace time or the
honeymoon phase of the business,everything's good. But I knew I
wanted to rock solid lifeevents, things happen,
structure, so getting everythinglegally structured and the

(01:09:47):
operational agreements strongfor both sides. I was we, I go
to the Boundary Waters a lot,and it's the weather can get
you. And I always say, hope forthe best, prepare for the worst.
So it was getting those kind ofthings in place, getting the
banking structure set up,figuring out what kind of
accounting principles we wantedto follow, so all that back
office stuff, and then freightrelated again, one of the

(01:10:08):
reasons I went into this becauseI believed in Chris's system. I
didn't know his system yet,other than you know, from the
outside looking in, but it waslike, All right, you've got a
lot of great words. How do weget that to the first employee
and then to the 10th employeeand then to the 100th employee?
So I actually wrote, I forgetthe final count right now, but
we're at about like 48 SOPs, sotraining documents that are,

(01:10:31):
wow, yeah. So in my medicaldevice world, I wrote, I wrote
quality systems for companiesand validated things and checked
all the systems. So we went forabout two or three months, and
we were doing sales at the time,but you know, he would do a
recording, and then I woulddocument everything he said. So
we put together a sales trainingprogram for when we do start
hiring. And it was reallygetting down, like, what are you

(01:10:53):
doing? That's successful? So wecan make sure that as we grow
and scale, we have that ratherthan, you know, let's say, one
day, you know, we have we growsuper fast. One day we land five
major accounts, and we need tohire. What do we do? Do we just
hire 10 people and see whosticks? Or do we bring them in
and say, here's how we're goingto treat our employees or our

(01:11:15):
customers, here's how we'regoing to treat our carriers.
Here's how we're going to vetour carriers, here's the
questions we're going to ask toour shippers. We wanted to have
all that documented so that thatwas there, not just like, hey, I
hope you figure it out. So thatwas a big thing I put in place,
I think, for this, and that willit. It like, Was that too early,
maybe, but we did it during thattime when we were in that early

(01:11:35):
phase. So now we have thatstructure, and it'll change, you
know, five, 610, times, but wehave the baseline figured out.
And that was one thing I wantedto have in place. Was like, All
right, let's take your systemand put it into a platform that
we can use.

Yeah, that's super interesting,
because I don't I've worked at acouple logistics companies, I
don't know that we ever had anSOP for much, and they were
around for a long time. Theywent out of business. So

Unknown (01:12:07):
it's, I mean people, like, I look at them too. I
mean, you learn on the job, andthat's you're not going to
replace that. But like, for me,especially, going in. So how we
structured it? You know, Chrisis the sales rep, or the account
manager, sales rep, and then I'dbe the apps. You know, me being
in the industry, what do I if acarrier calls me and says, I
want to book a load for thisrate and we agree on it? How do

(01:12:27):
I know if they're good? Like, Ididn't know that stuff, right?
So it was really good for me.
Say, Okay, what zip code are yougetting empty? And how long is
your trailer? What can youscale? You know, running the
MCS, how to look for it,checking in with the driver. I
never would have thought of thatright coming from the outside,
doing this like, yeah, what isthe dispatcher telling me,
confirm everything with thedriver and look for any issues

(01:12:48):
there. So those are the kinds ofthings that we want to make sure
is we hire new people that areaware and can start doing that
from day one, and then theyfigure out how to do it and get
efficient at it. But like, yeah,I don't want to just throw
someone in and say, All right,go find a truck and, like, make
sure they're exactly whathappens right. And I don't, I
mean, if we have a big or whenwe have a big account, like, I
don't want that to happen andsend the right equipment, or get

(01:13:10):
those no shows that don't getrecovered, like those are the
type of things that we want tobe able to train on from the
start and and we're acting ittoo. And I update these things
as we go, as we develop oursales system, so we so we can
document here's what's working,and then we'll transfer it
along. But yeah, we wanted togive people that baseline and
that time and that we care intothat. So that was one of the big

(01:13:30):
things we structured in thebeginning.

And so as you're, as you're, you know,
developing the these standardoperating procedures, and you're
learning about the industry andbringing all of your expertise
into it. How are you, I guess,sort of coordinating with Chris
on a daily basis, because you'rein Minnesota, he's in Reno so
how are you kind of knowing evenwhat to ask.

Unknown (01:13:54):
Would you mean ask, like the carriers, or,

yeah, so if you it's almost like you
don't know what you don't know.
And so if you're on the phone,maybe talking to a carrier, or,
you know, a shipper, how do youknow what? Or how did you know
what to ask? Was it just simplybased on those early
conversations with Chris andgoing through those SOPs,

Unknown (01:14:13):
absolutely it was, and I made mistakes. It wasn't like
these SOPs. I was like, Oh, gotit right. But I was like, I had
those SOPs up when I was doingit. And even today, he'll ask,
like, Hey, did you get the exactwidth of the thing? Like, what
did you get? And I still amlearning that. I mean, it's been
a couple years now, so I'mstrong at it or stronger. But
yeah, it was, I mean, in thebeginning there was a lot of

(01:14:34):
hand holding, and that is partof, like, how are we going to
train too? Like, do we justthrow them off, or do they have
a mentor that's watching overtheir shoulders? And how do we
transition with accounts and newpeople? But yeah, it was a lot
of hand holding in thebeginning. And then after about,
you know, 1520 loads, it's like,alright, I feel pretty good with
this. And then we grow and wentfrom there. So yeah, a lot of

(01:14:55):
hand holding beginning. I mean,with Zoom being a big thing
coming out of covid, it waspretty easy and quick calls.
And, yeah, it was, I mean, weand, like, as far as we
coordinate, like, he's got hisshow and a couple other things.
So we just, we're just veryopen. I'm looking at my phone
for no reason. Like, just texteach other, like, for this, Hey,
I'm going to be on this callfrom two to three, which means
I'm not looking at my emailsright now, so keep an eye out,

(01:15:17):
right? And he'll do the samething if he's got to go do a
site visit or something likethat. I'm very aware of what
he's doing, so I will clearwhatever I need to do so I'm at
my computer. I mean, I can stilldo other stuff, but, like, we
just make sure that we're alwaysactive for when our customers
reach out.

And so as you're so, you build out
these SOPs, but you also are ina very unique situation where
you have that you know, thismonster of a quiet partner, and
SPI, that is, is helping you aswell, because SPI doesn't do
this very frequently, but theypartner with you guys, with no

(01:15:52):
book of business, and so it wasup to you guys to build that
book of business. Tell it. Tellme how that went. Well.

Unknown (01:15:59):
Very thankful for SPI they've been awesome. And, like,
they're just a great company towork with, right? It basically,
I mean, it would have been wildif we had to get a loan and get
our own TMS and get a line oflike, all that stuff would have
been wild. So working with themhas just been a blessing, and
the service, but yeah, as faras, I mean, the fish didn't jump

(01:16:19):
into the boat, is what Ilearned. But yeah, it was a big,
you know, trying to make sure Ikind of get into the question it
was, it was get in and go andjust start calling. I. And you
know, we've learned along theway, like we now do sales calls
and not emails and things likethat. So it was just really
growing, but it was a quicklearning that, hey, both of us

(01:16:41):
are in sales, and sales is goingto be a part of our life for a
long time, if not for the restof this journey. And see how
just pushing and growing andtrying to introduce ourselves
and really getting that beliefin you, and that's an
interesting one. Is like, I knewthe system was good from what
Chris had said, but I hadn'tlived it yet. Now that we've
still got our customers from,like, our first three customers

(01:17:01):
that we ever worked with, and westill work with them, and we
like they, still like us. Thatme, that's the proof of concept.
So now, like today, I did fivesite visits here in the Twin
Cities. I feel good doing thatif we're a fit, if they're just
a pure LTL shipper, like, hey,great to meet you if you ever
need anything dedicated. Like,here's my card. But otherwise,
you know, have a good day. Butnow I know, like, when I go to a

(01:17:22):
billing material supplier, like,we know flatbed. We know how to
protect it, we know how to sendin the right equipment. Like,
because I've done it hundreds oftimes now, so it just feels good
to have that belief. But it wasreally getting that really
getting that belief and theimposter syndrome in the
beginning, right? Like, ifsomeone asked, what I do for a
living at a party, I'm like, howam I engineer? Am I logistics
guy? Like, have I earned being alogistics guy? Right? So yeah, I

think you kind of need both of those
skills. I think you need theengineering mindset in order to
work in logistics as well. Andto your earlier point, you know
you and you and Chris have areally good, it sounds like a
really good yin and yang kind ofperspective that brings both of
those perspectives together forsure, for sure. And so with you
mentioning site visits, becauseChris had had a LinkedIn post a

(01:18:07):
while back that I just lovedseeing, and he talked about the
power of not only cold calling,because I think a lot of folks,
especially freight brokers, theyuse just cold email, and they'll
just blast a million emails outand just pray for the best. And
with what Chris is talking he'salways, you know, preached about
the value of cold calling andjust getting your reps in, but
then he's also preaching aboutthe value of site visits. And so

(01:18:30):
it sounds like you're doing thesame thing in a different state,
which is, it sounds pretty cool,absolutely.

Unknown (01:18:37):
And to be honest, like we tried the emails for a while,
and we're like, this isn'tworking. So yeah, I forget he
came up to I forget why he cameup. It doesn't matter, but he
was here, and I had driven justnorth of me, up this street, and
I saw, like, flatbeds in a yard,and like, lumber. I was like,
God, we should go after them.
And we were kind of like, Hey,should we call them and see if

(01:18:58):
we could stop by rather thanjust go in? And they were all,
well, all of them said, Sure.
And then one of us called usback and said they were good. So
we're like, alright, we won'tstop in. But yeah, it was kind
of like it was, it was a greatexperience. And you know, you
stop in, you shake a hand, passthe business card, get one, and
in five minutes, I've seenphysically, what their stuff
looks like. I've asked themabout, you know, straps versus

(01:19:20):
chains and all those details. Iknow the weights, I know their
lanes, and they know who I am.
And it was just a greatexperience. And I found I've
been fine. I've actually, I'vegot a pretty high mark of how
many I try to get to a week, butI've loved the experience, like
the five I had today, I talkedto a founder of a franchisee
likely will not be a fit,because they're going to they're
doing a different type ofshipping than us, but had a

(01:19:42):
great conversation with him. Andthen three of the visits I made
were great conversations. Andit's a little seasonal, but it
was just, it's nice to meet inperson. And I haven't, I haven't
got lit up in person. I had afew cold like, Thanks, you
actually showed up, type deals,but it was more just, like,
short and it's like, Well, I'mjust not going to flood them
with questions. But yeah, forthe most part, like coming in

(01:20:03):
and shaking a hand, it's beenreally appreciated, and it's led
to, I mean, the growth and theinteractions is has definitely
showed itself. Yeah, especiallywhen you like, I found like, you
know, you follow up a month ortwo later, and that's when
things really get cooking. Butyeah, just coming in and shaking
a hand, presenting, I make sureI'm well dressed and
presentable, and ask a fewquestions and then leave before

(01:20:26):
the conversation needs to end.
It's just been a greatexperience, and I enjoy it. I'm
an extrovert as much of a nerd.
Much of a nerd as I am, like, Ilove getting out to see people,
so not being in an office rightnow kind of kills me sometimes.
So that's like, it's a perfectway just to get out and shake a
few hands and meet some people.

So that's interesting, that you're
doing five site visits justtoday alone. And so how do you
how do you prioritize who you'regoing to visit and why?

Unknown (01:20:52):
Yeah, so what I do is, when I'm driving around, I'm
sure my wife loves this, but ifI see a yard like I'll get,
let's just say Google Maps wouldbe the short answer. But I'll
drive by, even if I'm driving tothe cabin or something, I'll see
I'm like, Oh, that looks I mean,that looks like stuff that we
would move and I'll cop onGoogle Maps, or I'll text Chris
the name of the business,because I just need to write it

(01:21:14):
down before I forget. He ignoresthose now, because he knows, but
so I'll do that, and then that'show I find them. And then
usually what I'll do is I'llzoom in, because what I'm
finding is there's all theselittle like manufacturing hubs,
where you find one manufacturingplant, then there's like, six.
Six of them in this little area,right? You have, like the
residential neighborhood, andthen like the strip mall with

(01:21:35):
the restaurants in it and thegas station. And then there's
these little like residentialthings where it's like, All
right, well, they're shippingdocks in six of these buildings.
So I'll go in, look at them,screen them, pick a few, and
then just call and stop in andlike I said, one of them today,
like, hey, we do all LTL. It'slike, well, I don't do LTL. Was
great conversation. Thanks foryour time. But yeah, pop in and
it's more of a screening, like,I'm not coming in, like, Hey,

(01:21:57):
we're the cheapest, we're thebest. It's just like, What are
you guys doing? Are you guysseasonal? Do you have your own
trucks? Do you go outside ever?
Like, what? What's the standard?
Or like, where is yourheadquarters? Can you make the
decisions? And usually, that'swhat it leads to, is they're
like, Hey, we like, hey, welike, you get a hold of this
guy, let him know you talk tome. And that's what you're
getting in person, versus, like,just the cold calls and getting

(01:22:20):
to that generic voicemail andthings like that. And the
craziest thing that me and Chrisalways laugh about is, like,
sometimes when it's just when Icall ahead and it's a
receptionist and I check in withthem, they're super nice. That's
when they give me the person'sinformation. It's like, that was
like, my earning through thegatekeeper, right there. It was
like, that was it. They didn'tknow anything about they didn't

(01:22:40):
ask, they didn't want to gothrough questions, but they're
like, here's who you need totalk to. And then, like, call
me. You'll get me at this frontdesk, and I'll transfer you
through now. Thank you.

I love hearing that because I the other
logistics companies I worked at.
I was the front desk girl, and Iwas the executive assistant too,
and so anytime somebody walkedin, I was instantly annoyed, and
would not give out anyinformation unless you were very
nice, unless it was you areexpected. There was one moment
where, you know, a couple salesguys tried to come in through

(01:23:13):
the front door, and I was like,No, we're not interested. They
came in through the back door,and I immediately, it was a
whole mess. It was a it was theywere persistent, but not they
were persistent in a creepy way,like coming in through the back
door. I was, I did notappreciate that, but that is, I
think, that you hit the nail onthe head when it comes to the
gatekeeper, because thereceptionist or the executive

(01:23:33):
assistant at the front door canlet you know who anyone in that
building, and they can get youthat contact information. So I
love that you brought that tip.

Unknown (01:23:44):
Yeah, and that's I mean, calling ahead is the key
too. Because I'll say this thefew times I've, like, called a
location and it wires me totheir headquarters in a
different state, and they'relike, Yeah, go on in. Those have
been some of the colder ones,right when I come in, I'm like,
Hey, is Steve here? And he'slike, I'm Steve. I'm like, Oh,
hey, I'm Angela. I talked to youyesterday. Thanks for letting me

(01:24:04):
stop by. And then it justrelaxes the conversation. But
yeah, we always do that callahead to see because, yeah, the
random pop ins, as much as,like, I won't say against it,
but like, You got to read theroom a little bit too. And even
when people well today, I joked,the guy who I called yesterday
was out sick today, and his bosswas there, and he was like, I
go, that's funny. Did he let thesales guy come in knowing he was

(01:24:26):
going to be out? And we justhad, that was how we broke the
ice, so, but yeah, I was tryingto call, talk to the person
that's going to be there, andthen pop in

and that that's super I think that
that's a really good, like, verysimple plan too, for a lot of
brokers and agents out there whoare, you know, I read a lot of,
like, subreddits and, you know,from, you know, freight brokers
and things like that, and a lotof complaints about how this is
the worst market ever, and itjust genuinely feels like you
guys are just being good peopleand doing the hard work of doing

(01:25:01):
the research, making the call,and then doing the visit and
then following up later. Itsounds like too simple to be
true.

Unknown (01:25:08):
It is just be nice to people and see what happens. And
like, people might not need us.
I want them to remember us, andthat's the big thing. Like, most
people are good today, andthat's fine. And, I mean, I
don't know better, because Ihaven't been in another market,
but yeah, it's more, you know,okay, you've got five trucks in
your fleet, and two of them aresitting most of the time. Like,
that's great if come you knowspring when you need more, let

(01:25:31):
us know, and that's when Ifollow up, or stop back in and
say hi, but it's more, yeah, Iknow that they're busy. They've
got other things to do. I justwant them to know who I am,
remember me, and then we'll begood to go from there.

So how are you, how are you, I guess,
tracking who you're going tofollow up with, and at what
time, I assume you're using aCRM like, what kind of I guess,
coming from a technologybackground, I would assume maybe
you know a lot of freight techand CRMs and things like that
are at the forefront of youroperation.

Unknown (01:26:00):
They are, they will be, right now, we're pretty
bootstrapping, right still, butit's about time to get into a
CRM so right now, I've got agood spreadsheet, and I I put
notes in my calendar when I'mgoing to follow up with specific
people, so it pops up. It popsup at some point. It'll be nice
to have an automated CRM thatsays, call these five people
today. But, I mean, we're justnot, we haven't got to that

(01:26:20):
point in the business yet. But,yeah, I just keep track of
everything. I keep track of thenotes. Usually I try not to get
into, like, personal Oh, how oldare your kids? That's awesome.
You know, I don't. Get into thatunless they leave, like, they
have to bring it up. But anynotes, like, in right away, like
I I don't take notes while I'mtalking to people, but as soon
as I get to my truck, I writedown everything I can remember,

(01:26:42):
so all those notes are back inthere. So that way when I follow
up, because who knows, theymight not remember me. Usually,
with the site visits, they'veremembered me and they're
excited to talk again, but like,when I'm doing a follow up call
to a different state, if I canreference like, hey, we talked
about straps versus this, andyou guys are running this, but
not kind of stogas, then thatsets the tone for a better
follow up. So just taking allthose details notes, I run

(01:27:04):
through it, look at theirwebsite before every call, and
then I'm refreshed for thatcall, right there?

Are there any other, I guess, sort
of marketing or salesinitiatives that you are
passionate about? I mean, itsounds pretty cut and dry, and
it's working with what you'redoing right now. But I'm curious
if you know, obviously, Chrishas the podcast. What about you
know, LinkedIn is also anotherbig one in logistics. Is there
anything else that really sticksout to you from a marketing and

(01:27:32):
sales perspective that

Unknown (01:27:33):
you that is such a big one, I don't know yet, is the
answer. You know, do, yeah, dowe go radio? Do we? Do we do
have some SEO, so we'rehopefully popping up on search
engines, so a little bit ofthat's kind of the big one, but
we've started talking about it.
But I just, I'm not, we're notready to invest that heavy into
it right now. And which, which,I mean, I don't know if it helps

(01:27:55):
or hurts, but no, right now, atthe moment, it's just pure
outreach. I know. I mean,Chris's podcast is big, but
yeah, I mean, he's talking tothere are shippers listening,
but yeah, there, I don't know.
It's, it's more awareness of it,but, yeah, I don't know. I guess
the short answer is, No, I don'thave a plan for marketing yet.

(01:28:16):
You're kind of

Blythe Brumleve Milliga (01:28:17):
already doing it. Like, yeah, way better
than, you know, sending out, youknow, downloading a glorified
lead list from zoom info andthen just blasting out a 10,000
emails. Like, I, I detest that.

Unknown (01:28:31):
Yeah, that's not what we're going to do. No, it'll
always be that personal as wecan go out there, and as we
grow, you know, fly to differentcities and do these type visits,
especially like I think I'vedone, I don't know why I looked
at my blank screen. I think I'vevisited about 150 people in the
Twin Cities at this point. So,like, I'm starting to get a feel
for how to have a conversation.
And, yeah, eventually we'll takethat and expand on it. But as

(01:28:53):
far as like, a pure likeLinkedIn or Facebook blasts, or
those type of things, I don'tWell at some point, I won't say
no to it, but it's just not whatwe're doing today.

Yeah, and especially with what does
your team look like? Is the twoof you? And are there anybody
else?

Unknown (01:29:09):
It was, it's just the two of us right now and then as
soon as I've got my nerd metricsof when we will start ready to
hire and trust I went far. Sofar, my business plan has been
accurate, just not the calendar,but yeah, it's so we just hit
those metrics, and then we'llhave those conversations grow.
But yeah, right now it's justChris and I, and we're having a

(01:29:30):
blast doing it.

So I'm curious back to SBI for a
minute, because what does, Iguess, that it sounds like you
and Chris are handling, youknow, covering a lot of ground
with the two of you. How doesSBI sort of play a role within
the business? Obviously, backoff a back office support and,
you know, their annual eventwith, you know, rendezvous with
all the freight agents. I wantto know a little bit more about

(01:29:54):
after you get started with SPIand what sort of the, I guess,
the the middle like operationalrelationship looks like with
them. Are you talking with themevery day? Are you participating
in training? What does that looklike? Yeah.

Unknown (01:30:08):
So that initial stuff, there is training and all that.
And for me, like, I had neverbeen in a TMS, so that took a
little longer than it should,but after about three, four
loads, it made sense. Like,here's what I'll say about SPI
they are great when you needthem, and they're when you
don't, they don't, they don'tbug you. Yeah, they don't bug
you. It's a great service. Like,if I have a question on a load,

(01:30:29):
or, you know, we can make someadjustments, or something like
that, they answer the phonequickly. They're there. The
response time is great if you ifit's an email, like,
everything's good. So it's kindof more just, like, what do you
need? And if you don't needanything, it's just a great
platform to work. And so it'skind of a perfect my favorite,
one of my favorite compliments,is boring and, like, that's

(01:30:50):
pretty much it like, I love agood, boring load where it gets
picked up on time and dropped ontime, and they get the updates,
and the customer may or may notsay, Thanks for the updates, but
they know that it's going to getdone. And like, that's a good,
boring load. And especially, Imean, they're just easy to work
with. And, like, there hasn'tbeen any, like, changes where
I'm like, what were we thinking?
Yeah, it's just, they're just agreat it's just an easy platform

(01:31:11):
and group of people to get towork with. And, like, I know
most of my name, and yeah, it'sawesome,

yeah, yeah. I think you hit the nail
on the head when it comes tothem, because they are just,
they're, like, the best silentpartners, and you can just, yes,
moving and doing, you know thework that you do best, and
they're there. To support, yeah.
And I, you know, I had thepleasure of going to one of
their rendezvous, not last year,but the year before. I met a lot
of the agents. And it was just,it was very evident that even

(01:31:40):
though there's a little bit of,like, light competition between
different agencies, but everyoneis there to learn from each
other. Have you had a chance togo to one of their rendezvous
events I did.

Unknown (01:31:52):
Yeah, it was, I went to the My first rendezvous last
when was that? Last April andNashville one, yeah, the
National one at the Opry. Yeah.
It was awesome. Just to see itwas wild to see so many
different people with so manydifferent goals for their
businesses that worked in thesame system. And everyone was so
nice. Like, obviously we don'tshare shippers names. But like,
I mean, case in point, there'sone another agent, we got an

(01:32:15):
opportunity to do some drayage,and we were like, Let's do it.
And we called them up because,like, we knew that they had done
a lot of drayage, and they gaveus an hour their time. And like,
you know, here's the list thatwe use it just here's what to
watch out for, here's how toquote, here's how to do these
things. And like, we knew it,but he knew knew it right? And
then, because that, we gotreally good. And that was very

(01:32:36):
good business move for us andthe customer. And so that's,
yeah, that is the kind ofsupport you get from the other
agents. And it's been and theyreach out to us for, like,
Chris's expertise in open deck.
And so it's like, of course,we're going to tell them
everything. Like, why? Why wouldwe hold back? Like, go for it.
We want you to be successful.
And it is just a great, yeah,there's, there's trophies and
things like that. But outside ofthat, like, nobody cares. And,

(01:33:00):
you know, there was a very wellestablished agent there, and,
you know, I just want to, Iasked him a couple questions,
and, like, I don't know why.
Like, again, with the impostersyndrome and still getting
started things like that. Like,why should this guy give me the
time of day? And he answeredeverything and like, it was just
a great conversation. And it wasjust like, those are the type of
people that they attract andwork with and keep. And it's,

(01:33:23):
it's very evident in that,

was it Steve burrows? It was, I do
know, because I love it,favorite agent interviews ever
that I've interviewed twice. IOh, man, when you were talking
and I was like, I bet thatSteve. I bet it's Steve. It was
Steve.

Unknown (01:33:42):
And there's a few others too. Yeah, he was one of
those ones. I'm like, yeah, he'shere with his whole family. He's
like, got one of the biggestagencies in here. And like, I'm
just this guy, like, how manyso, like, I train at a gym, and
I see so many guys come in,they're gonna, like, I'm gonna
get in the UFC cage, and thenthey're gone in a month, right?
And I'm like, How many, how manyof these Has he seen, right? And

(01:34:03):
but he just opened up and justanswered everything. And it was
just a great conversation. And,I mean, and he wasn't the only
one that was just one of theones that stood up, but, like,
everyone was like, yeah,

a character too, like, he's like,
the best, like, TV dadcharacter, like, I don't know,
reminds me of like, like acountry Tim Allen or something
like that. Yeah, very much. Islike, you know, it almost feels
like another dad and like, hewould just give me fatherly
advice all the time.

Unknown (01:34:35):
Oh, yeah. Well, he asked me, like we were talking
about, I forget how we got onthe Florida conversation, but
like we were joking about beforethis call. And I was like, Yeah,
I was just down there, and Itook my dad out fishing on the
ocean. He's like, if you evercome down, let me know. I know
some guys. I'm like, I'm goingto take you up on that. I don't
know when, but it's going tohappen

for the listeners who don't maybe,
maybe get a lot of thesereferences, because Steve
burrows has been a guest on thispodcast twice now. I'll link to
it in the show notes. It's oneof our both of his episodes are
some of the most, highestdownloaded episodes that we have
in our entire catalog. And Ithink it's, you know, very I
think you're kind of hinting toit too, like he's, he just has a

(01:35:14):
really great aura. And I thinkthat that signals to your other
point of just SPI reallyfocusing on the the aura of
people and a vibe like, youcan't really put, like, I guess,
data and numbers behind. Ofcourse, you want more revenue,
you want more customers and allthat good stuff. But it has to
really start from being a goodperson and believing in certain

(01:35:36):
moral principles and things likethat. And I think that that
leadership comes from, it comesfrom the top at SPI, and then
it, you can definitely see itfilter down, especially in in
this conversation. So far, youcan tell that, you know, SPI
really values the relationshipaspect. And you know, why? Why
wouldn't they, if they've beenaround for 40 years, which not a

(01:35:57):
lot of freight agencies can saythat, right?

Unknown (01:35:59):
I would completely agree. And like, Steve is one,
like they all everyone was, Imean, not everyone was as large
as life of that guy. But like,everyone was just easy to talk
to, easy to approach, veryfriendly, like that. I do think
that they, they line up, theymake sure what you're doing has
the like, the values that theywant to keep. I think that's
important to them, and theybuilt it out over time. So, so

what does first question? Because I
got, I got a couple more aboutsort of what you kind of feel
like, what the outlook of 2025is going to look like. But I. I
do. While this question is stillkind of permeating in my head,
why haven't you ever been onChris's podcast, the freight
coach, for folks,

Unknown (01:36:38):
that's a great question. A lot of it comes to
the thing I've mentioned before.
Like, I still, I mean, yes, I'vebeen doing this for almost two
and a half years now, but like,still, I feel like I want to
earn my way in. And like, Am Ian expert? Why should someone
listen to me? So whether it'sinsecurity or what like I want
to be, I want to be able tocontribute. And so that's a big
thing. If I do go on a show. Theother thing, my background is in

(01:36:58):
engineering, and my wife lovesthis. I try to fix everything.
I'm pretty good at it. So I tryto, like, let that entity stay
as it is, because he's good atit. It's a strong platform. He
delivers great value to theindustry. And like, I don't want
to go in and be like, Hey, youshould put dramatic pauses in
here and there. Like, I don'twant to put that in his head. Or
you should get a new microphone.

(01:37:20):
Like, I don't do that. Like,we'll do mic checks and things
like that. I'm there for him forthat, but I try. I don't want to
go into like, I think it'd belike me trying to tell a major
league baseball player what todo, like, who am I?

So look on his face if you told him
a dramatic pause,

Unknown (01:37:41):
it's good. I've messed with him a few times like that.
But yeah, you also got toremember, we know, we know, know
each other, right? So there'snot a lot of holding back.

Well, I will say that just, you know,
in the 41 minutes that we havebeen having a conversation, I
look forward to the day that youjoin his podcast and and have
that first episode with him. Iimagine it'll be a lot of fun.
And so, you know, as we sort ofround out the conversation,
what, what are sort of yourgoals and your play? I imagine
you you have the goals alreadysort of lined up for the rest of

(01:38:13):
25 what does that look like?

Unknown (01:38:16):
Yeah, it's, you know, putting metrics as we shifted
into, like, the calls fromemails about a year ago. It's
really like holding ourselvesaccountable to making sure we're
hitting those metrics and thenturning those into new
customers. So we've got veryspecific people that we want to
add, and I think we're gonna beable to do it, you know, a lot
of the especially this year andin December, I could sense a lot

(01:38:39):
of optimism in the companiesthat I talked to with where
we're going. And I don't thinkit's going to be a light switch
that turns on here like inApril. Maybe it is, but it seems
like there's a lot of optimismand things picking up and things
moving, and the big thing for meis going to be, now that I've
established these relationships,is really making sure to follow
up with them. And that's that,you know, that's funny, like,

(01:39:02):
one of the biggest things I'velearned, like, I've gone to
sites, and it's gone great, andthey I sent them an email, and
they set me up, and everything'sgood, and we high five, and then
it's just not a good fit forwhat we're trying to do for
multiple reasons. But in like,these ones where I've, like,
talked to people three fourtimes when they're like, hey,
you know, send me yourinformation, or here's our
packet. Do you have something?
Those have turned into longrelationships and good working

(01:39:25):
relationships. So it's reallygoing to be focused on building
those and, like, not justcalling all my list once, it's
going to be all right, who arethese people that I've had good
conversations with that wentwell, and I still got to learn
this too. Like, how do I talk tosomeone for the fourth time? Do
I just pop in and bring donutsor what? I'll figure that out.
But it's like, it's really gonnabe making those follow ups for

(01:39:45):
those metrics, and, yeah,growing a sustainable business
that we can hopefully listenhelp shippers of all sizes be
good to our carriers. And thenwhen we do start hiring like,
make people like, enjoythemselves. Here now you will
have fun. But like, have peoplelike, build an environment that
people enjoy, brag about, andhopefully bring their other good
friends.

And if I'm not mistaken, both you and
Chris are you both the sons oftruck drivers? Actually?

Unknown (01:40:14):
Yeah, yeah, we are. So yeah, Chris's dad, Gary, was
over the road. I don't know ifhe's ever said his name online.
Anyways, awesome guy. He'shysterical. But yeah, and then
my dad was a local Twin Citiesdriver my whole life. So yeah,
we both knew that, like, like,that was just the norm. So Well,

I think that that explains your
your your passion for wanting totake care of carriers first,
because that is an extension ofyour business. Steve burrows
actually said this on a recentshow, that he wants to make sure
that his carriers arerepresenting his business,
because they're the ones meetingthe shippers.

Unknown (01:40:50):
That is the truth. And I, I'll take it one step
further, so that that's huge,right, for keeping the business.
But then selfishly, like, I loveit when I call, because we do
have regular carriers. I love itwhen I call and they answer on
the first ring and they're,like, excited to talk to me,
because they know, like, I knowthat they're I know their niche,
their lanes, and they, you know,we treat everyone good and take
care of things if issues dohappen. And like, that's what we

(01:41:12):
want to build. And like, I likethat. I always say like, and
that's one of my jokes withdrivers. Like, I want you to
answer when I call or want to,want to answer. So that's a big
thing. Is like, yeah, treatingthem good. I mean, they're out
there, and I know this has beensaid in the industry, but it's
like, I'm behind a computer herein I can put a sweatshirt on a.
I get cold, everything's fine.
They're out there loading,strapping secure, like moving it

(01:41:34):
and then unloading it andtalking to the shippers and
receivers like they're reallygetting it done. So I have a
huge appreciation, and we wantto make sure they get treated

well too. Yeah, absolutely. So okay,
so positive outlook for 2025 nowis probably a good time for
folks who maybe are thinkingabout doing the same thing that
you and Chris are doing. Whatadvice would you give to a
prospective freight agent onwhat's the first SOPs that they
got to get set up as they'rethinking about their business

(01:42:05):
plan?

Unknown (01:42:06):
The first S guy?
There's not one getting rightlegal. Yeah, legal is going to
be the big one, especially ifyou're doing a partnership. Give
it all that guesswork, have thefinancial conversations
beforehand. Like, how do youwant to take distributions? Do
we both have the same needs?
What does that look like? Right?
Have those conversations andthen see, get set up with a

(01:42:27):
bank. Actually had aconversation with a buddy, not
in logistics, but he wanted totalk to my tax guy. And I'm
like, I called him back. I waslike, What do you got cooking?
Because I'm not, like, my taxguy's busy. Like, what? And he
was like, Well, I want to figurethis out and this out. And I'm
like, go make a sale first. I'mlike, I can get you structured
in a week. Go make a sale first,and then we'll take care of

(01:42:48):
this. And it's like, just jumpin and go get the bank, the LLC,
the operating agreement with agood legal team, and get
running. I know I'm such aplanner and a preparer like I
that was where me and Chris,that's one of the prime examples
of us balancing each other out,where he's like, alright, we got
to be on the sales call, and I'mlike, we need to write SOPs. And
it's like, he was right. We bothwere right, but we like sales is

(01:43:09):
what's driving it right? Yeah.
And then I mean, most people whoare going to go into this
probably had more experiencethan me, and they know how to
vet a carrier and stuff likethat. So you can choose how
important that is to you at thattime.

Yeah.
Well, I think you you very much.
I said hit the nail on the heada few times during this
conversation. Wanted to say itagain the legal part. You know,
how answering some of thosequestions ahead of time,
especially for our partnership,before they become a big issue
and could potentially put youout of business using the wrong
carrier. If you don't have theright legal or finance backing,

(01:43:46):
then that could put you out ofbusiness. So I think that both
of you guys were really smart totake that approach. But then to,
I guess, to more of Chris'sstyle, it's also you can get
lost in the SOPs, and you canget lost in making sure that
everything is perfect before youactually get going. And you
can't do that. You got to have alittle bit of the both. So I
think it's, it's brilliant, theway that you guys have worked

(01:44:09):
together, and clearly it'sworking, and clearly you're
doing a lot of good things andand hopefully y'all, y'all, I
say, hopefully y'all, are gonnakeep it up.

Unknown (01:44:19):
Oh yeah, it's nonstop right now. So

Blythe Brumleve Millig (01:44:21):
anything we can expect from you guys,
maybe a first appearance on thepodcast later on this year, I
officially have bragging rightsas far as,

Unknown (01:44:33):
yeah, no. Big thing is going to be just growing the
business and like, that's kindof our main focus right now, and
staying on track and with like,yeah, it's, it's pure growth
mode. And then we both areblessed with beautiful families,
so it's balancing that out. And,yeah, basically family business
right now, amazing.

Well, this was a fantastic
conversation. Angelo, any wherecan folks follow you? Follow
your more of your work. Maybethey're a shipper and they want
to get in contact with you.
Where can I send folks?

Unknown (01:45:04):
Yeah, so I don't have so I would, I mean, Chris has
got all the freight coaches.
He's gonna be one to find. But Iwould just say freight coach,
logistics.com, website, myInstagram is boring. I don't
think I posted in like, threeyears. Like we joked, I'm not
the front man. I'm theoperations guy behind it who's
doing sales. I don't have thathuge presence, and that's we've
talked about. Like, should I dothat as, like, a marketing

(01:45:25):
standpoint? But I don't know.
Like, yeah, I guess freightcoach Logistics is how you can
find me fake coaches. I know.
Yeah, I'm not like, yeah, Chrisis the face. I'm okay with the
face. I want to get things done.
And, like, we both want to getthings done. So yeah, I guess
just our website. And feel freeto reach out.

Heck yeah. And then we'll, we'll put
a link to all of those things inthe show notes. And then, yeah,
you're exactly right, becauseChris, in podcasting, he is
unstoppable. When it comes tothe podcast, it's like Jesus,
take a break for God's sakesyou're making me giving me
anxiety to produce all these newepisodes, but he's not going to,

(01:46:06):
all right, Angelo, this was agreat conversation. Thank you so
much. We'll make sure that weput all of that information in
the show notes, and good luck in2025 I say that, but I don't
think you're going to need it.

Unknown (01:46:17):
Thank you very much.
And yeah, it was honor to be on.
I appreciate, I appreciate youletting me be here and have a
great day.

Mike Mikulik (01:46:24):
It's unfortunate you can't rush, you can't rush
the process with trying to getcustomers. You need to do good
work. You need to take the timeunderstand their business, ask a
lot of questions, be curiousabout their business, and
realize that not every companyis going to be a fit for you,
and you're not going to be a fitfor them. And you know what, if
you tell the customer that I'monly here trying to understand

(01:46:44):
your business, I may not be theright fit for you, Will? You
tell a shipper that he's goingto be like, really, I've never
heard that before, but it's justtake it slow. Do good work.
Understand their business. Becurious like be curious about
the business, and never expectto go in there trying to take
their largest lane. Start small.
You got to prove yourself.
Anything, anything thisbusiness. Start small. Prove

(01:47:06):
yourself. And once you proveyourself, and they like you, and
I've seen this with agents,where they've started with an
account, and they know how bigthe account is, and they have,
you know, this one small lane,and you know what gets them on
the door? And then, you knowwhat? Two, three late, years
later, you're taking a look atthat account and how much
business they're actually doingwith them. And it's just you
look back, and it's the naturalprogression. The relationships

(01:47:29):
are small. You prove yourself asthey trust and like you, it ends
up growing in to get morebusiness, and I think sometimes
we're just not patient enough.

Well, there was an interesting debate
on LinkedIn by my friend GraceSharkey and a few other folks
within the industry that wastalking about how your brokers
should be educated on everythingthat's going on within global
supply chain, crisises andtariffs. And there was a counter
argument that was made thatbrokers should be focused on

(01:47:56):
covering freight, but the graySharkey was making the point
that I I want my customers toknow that I care about their
freight, so I'm going to provethat I'm educated on the topic
of, if I'm importing lumber fromCanada, on how it's going to
impact their pricing if they'removing it across the border. And
her argument was, the brokershould be educated on their

(01:48:16):
customers freight. And there wasa surprising amount of people
that were saying the counteropposite to that, that, no, you
should just be focused on movingmoving loads.

Yeah, I think it's all about educating and looking
at the whole supply chain,seeing how that's going to
impact them. I mean, look whathappened right now with, you
know, the China us tariffcrisis. And then also, then you
have the 90 day period where,you know, you know, it was
lowered. Well, guess what,imports bookings out of China to
the US went up 300% Well, guesswhat that's going to hit us,

(01:48:45):
probably in July and August,once those containers arrive
into, you know, the East and theWest Coast ports. And then from
there, it's going to getoffloaded. Then also it's going
to start hitting the it's gonnastart hitting the domestic
network. Well, guess what?
That's gonna put an influx ofproduct out on the market that
we probably don't have enoughcarriers for. Prices are gonna
go up. Well, why would you sharethat with your customer and say,
This is how the effect of thistariff pause can have an impact
on your business. And he canplan accordingly for it

too, exactly. And then they can go
into their meetings with their,you know, colleagues, and be
able to speak intelligently onit absolutely.

And the shipper also goes, Wow, I didn't, I
didn't think of that. Hey,that's really important to me.
And if he does go and share itto those on his planning team or
on there, you know, even totheir executive team, he looks
educated to them, too. And theyall can, everybody looks good,
yeah,

and I think so we're hitting on a
concept of, obviously,relationships around education.
But what about, you know,relationships on the tech side
of things, there's so much techthat has been just injected into
the industry. There's someconsolidation that's being hap
or happening as we speakthroughout the course of this
year. How can you maintain agood relationship with a shipper

(01:49:55):
if there's so much tech involvedin that process now, and your
carriers too?

I mean, Tech has its purpose. I mean, there's
aspects of redundant, redundantthings where technical,
technology helps out. I mean,even auto bidding or or auto
posting loads like that, stuffthat all has a has a place. But
I think anything where you haveto have what a problem hits a
customer is always going to wantto talk to somebody, live on the
phone. So you technology can doa lot, but it can't do

(01:50:21):
everything. I mean, there's a,there's a whole thing now to,
you know, utilizing AI to evencommunicate with the customer. I
you know what? There's a placefor things. There is definitely
a place for things. But at thesame time, too, when you're on
the phone, and, you know what,your cell phone's not working,
you're trying to call your cellphone provider, and you're
dealing with, you know, withautomated message, you just want

(01:50:42):
to talk to somebody,

and you're so much they're
psychological tests that provethat, like you're so much
angrier when you are talking toa robot than when you're not.

You know what's funny? Actually funny. You say
that too, because I was readinga post today on LinkedIn that
talked about what you know, keythings that draw people like,
how to be likable, how to be andthe same thing works in business
people deal with those theylike, is empathy. And when you
show empathy, like, you knowwhat say, a loads gone sour, you
got to call your customer. Andyou know what your customer is

(01:51:11):
going to probably hear a lotabout it as well, too, because
it's going to affect their wholesupply chain. It could affect
their planning for theirproduction as well. You know
what? Showing empathy to them isa valued thing, and there's a
lot of there's some things thatAI just can't do, and empathy is
definitely one of them.
Genuineness is definitely notone of those things. Those soft
skills are still important, andthey still help. To sell.

Now I think I was actually talking to
essay, you know, of SPIlogistics, and he was saying
that even with some of the AIbots out there, they will, if
somebody on the call has willask if, are you an AI agent? And
the AI agent will lie to themand say they're not. And so what
do you think that that does toyour trust and credibility, and

Unknown (01:51:53):
they find out

and that, I mean, you've lost that
customer forever, and thinkpeople have to be really
cautious whenever they areimplementing new technology, is,
where is the problem that it'sactually solving? Is it going to
create a whack a mole wherethere's now all these other
problems that exist because thiswas brought in to solve a
problem, and it's not solvingthat problem, it's creating
more. And we've

been experimenting with AI too, in our especially
on some of our marketing and ourmarketing videos too. I mean,
it's got its it's got its place.
That's awesome. What we'retrying

to where have you seen success with
it? I would love to hear somesuccess stories with AI.

We're utilizing short videos like so we're
trying to figure out, you know,what are commonly asked things
for people who want to be afreight agent. So a lot of
people are looking at it going,I don't know enough about what
it means to become a freightagent, or how to set myself up
as a freight agent. So you knowyou were gathering all this data
on questions people are asking,and we're basically making
YouTube shorts out of thatthrough AI to help answer and

(01:52:47):
educate potential freightagents. Yeah. So I think that
that has an awesome place forit. But like I said, talking one
on one to people, that's still,

it's still paramount. I think there's
certain things that kind of, youknow, let you in the door, per
se, but then it's up to you toreally solidify that
relationship through goodservice and communication and
service expectations,

even going to see your customer too, or going
taking your customer for lunchor dinner. You can't do that
through AI. You gotta, you knowwhat they're still the big thing
about, you know, if you can bewith a customer, have lunch,
break bread, golf with them,whatever it is, get to know him.
You hear about. That's what,that's what more, you know, puts
more hands around the business,because now there's a
relationship, and it's the onething that

so how, how is your, your freight
agent network been adjusting toall the chaos that's gone on
this year.

Man, with all the chaos, with what fraud, with
fraud

tariffs, just uncertainty, I think, in
that, you know, for a lot ofbusinesses, they have to rely
on, you know, certain thingsthat are going rules set in
place. And whenever you haveuncertainty,

we've always talked with our agents about is
never be happy with the statusquo. I mean, you know what? The
customer that you have today,you could lose that customer
pretty quick too. I mean, thatcustomer who you have a good
relationship could leave gosomewhere else. Also puts that
business in jeopardy. A lot ofthing is planning. You always
got to have some you always haveto have something in your
pipeline that you're alwaysworking on to be able to replace

(01:54:11):
something in case you lose it.
And the other big thing too, andI mean, we've been working on
this for like, seven, eightyears, and this is where we've
seen a lot of our growth comefrom, is the aspect of deep
selling, going back and requalifying the business. Because
the business you qualified, say,for instance, three years ago,
when you got those one or twolanes, you know what, he's
probably that customer isprobably growing and probably
doing a whole bunch of otherthings that they don't even know

(01:54:32):
about. A lot of times it boilsdown to when it's like, hey,
when you requalify the business,the common thing that we
actually hear from our agents, Ididn't know you service that
area. Oh, I didn't know you didthat. So I think you always got
to be asking questions about andbeing inquisitive about your
customers business and whatother opportunities they have,
or who know, who else makesdecisions within, within the
company that perhaps has somelink to transportation

(01:54:55):
requirements that you couldactually handle. So always be
curious. Always be asking thatquestion,

what did I think on that Chris jolly
podcast, he said that Kara Brownof lead coverage, said that your
top customer is somebody else'sprospect.

Absolutely someone's always, yeah, that's
another thing too. Actually,Michael and and Bill and Mark
will talk about that tomorrow atthe TMSA, about how many calls
they actually get in a day. Sosomeone, and it's not just like
on your on your left hand, thesepeople are getting tons of calls
every single bit, every singleday, and emails trying to
solicit their business intotrying to get into the door. And

(01:55:30):
you know what, some of thosepeople will eventually probably
get in the door if they sellright and they and and they they
do it the right way.

That was one thing. We're at TMSA
elevate in Austin, Texas. Had tothink about that for a minute
because almost said New Orleans,because that was last year's
conference, yeah, but the one inNew Orleans, lot of fun. That's
great. Now, by the way, Mike isfrom Canada, so

Unknown (01:55:58):
he's that humidity factor going on. My body's not
meant for that.

Well, you, you did survive July at
Disney World?

Yes, I did. So pictures of that, and I was
laughing because there was,like, glistening I was wearing
short glistening like sweat onmy arms, as like we're taking
pictures between with you orwith you and batter and Maddie.
I was like, oh my goodness, itwas hot. It was

so we did go to Orlando, Disney World
in July a couple of years ago.
It was me and my husband and.
Mike and his daughter, Maddie,who is also a freight agent for
SPI and I remember at one pointwe were kind of just standing
around in the theme park andtalking about what we were going
to do next. And you and Maddieboth were like, can we stand and
have this conversation in shape?
I think Bonner and I like, wedon't really, we're it's hot, of

(01:56:47):
course, but like, we don'trecognize it. I think

used to it. I think we're just used to the
suffering. That's fun. That wasgreat. Yeah, look forward to the
going to the end of the ridesection there, where there was
air conditioning.

But yeah, that's speaking of TMSA.
Well, there was one shipperpanel, I think it was last year
that did say, like, we canrecognize your templated emails
because it's a different fontand it's a different font color,
and we know that you are sendingthis email out to, you know,
hundreds, maybe 1000s of peopleand so, but that's not a good

(01:57:26):
way to develop that firstrelationship.

So emails are tough too, don't you mean? I
mean, I get emails all the timefor people trying to solicit. I
don't even reply half the time.
You don't even read them, right?
I mean, and we make a phonecall, not everyone answer the
phone, but if you do get on thephone with somebody, you've got
like, 10 seconds to be able tomake some sort of a quick
impression, or they still wantto be engaged in a conversation,

and with SBI just having their
rendezvous conference. I'massuming a lot of people were
maybe talking about, you know,how what's working, what's not
working, what sales andmarketing wise, is our home runs
right now and then, what are

actually big thing is referrals for them right now.
I was a big topic we talkedabout was referrals. And it's
interesting, because when youhave a freight agent who you
know works for themselves.
They're the ones that areanswering the phone at six
o'clock at night on a Fridaynight or on a Saturday morning
at Seven 8am or on a weekend orafter hours. They're the ones
that are able to do that. Thatputs a huge separation between a
lot of other companies. And youknow what? These people, these

(01:58:26):
customers that they deal with,no other people. So referrals,
and asking about referrals.
There's been a real big hit forus right now.

Oh, that's so they're asking, just
like on the phone, whilethey're, you know, they've had
a, yeah, well, you

have a relationship with them. Like,
hey, it's like, thank you somuch for helping me all whatever
it is, and it's asking thequestion, hey, thank you so
much. I really value workingwith you, too. But hey, do you
know anybody else that could beor value of what we what we do
personally for you

ask that question because they would
probably, I would imagine, wantto help you too,

especially if you have that relationship. It's the
same thing. When you go and yousee a customer and you have
lunch with them, or you golfwith them, they feel so happy
that you took that time to spendwith them. And most times out of
it, you end up getting morebusiness out of it, naturally,
because they're appreciative,because you have that
relationship, they spend timewith you. You obviously made an
impression that they like youtoo. What happens

during or maybe you have some advice
for folks who are dealing with,maybe with one, one relationship
within a big ship or a bigcustomer, and what happens if
that person leaves, or, youknow, something happens?

That's a good question. The other big thing,
and I took the Miller Hymantraining is going back, oh my
gosh, this is, like, a long timeago. I'm dating myself. The big
one thing that came out of it,though, and obviously, Miller
Hyman has a lot more componentsto selling, but the one big
thing was knowing that you havepeople that are the decision
makers, and you have people thatare influencers, and then you

(01:59:50):
have other ones, the you know,the day to day workers, but they
all have some sort of aninfluence on on things. So
always looking at expanding yourrelationship within a customer.
So if you're dealing with onedecision maker right now, that's
great. Have a good relationshipwith them. But who are the, you
know, who are his dispatchers atthat work, on the team? You
know, who's his boss? Expandthat relationship, because the
moment that one person leaves,guess what? Now you have

(02:00:13):
relationships with other people,and they can be advocates for
you too, as you go and try towork around, trying to work with
a new person that's coming infor that decision making
position. And anybody who comesinto a position, you know, a
brand new position, especiallywho has experience in this
industry, has his provenproviders that he probably wants
to bring in. But if the peoplethat are surrounding him, that
the workers, even as boss go,Hey, we've been dealing with ABC

(02:00:35):
company for years, that youknow, the guy working there had
a good relationship, but, youknow, he's awesome. We want to
continue to use them. That'swhat you want. You want people
that are advocates for yourbusiness and for your service.
So expand the relationship asmuch as you can.

And I think another thing that you
bring up jolly for the thirdtime. I think in this
conversation, he's talking aboutsite visits as well, which I
think in, like in my digitalworld, I'm like, How can I
create, like, differentmarketing campaigns and all of
these different things? But Ithink a lot of brokers are
dealing with this as well, and alot of agents is that they're

(02:01:09):
trying to do all the digitalthings, but maybe just asking
the simple questions ofreferrals and also site visits
are the tried and true methods a

meeting face to face is gonna having a meeting
face to face is somebody isprobably gonna go a lot further
than having, you know, 15 phonecalls for that person thinking
that you know him right, and youknow knowing what he ate for
dinner on Saturday. Saturdaynight and watch football game he
was watching on Sunday morning.
But when you get face to face,yeah, it accelerates. It
accelerates the process,accelerates the relationship.

So referrals and site visits are
big winners for your agentsright now, and then also the
other, I think, leg of thatstool is the ongoing education
for a lot of these agents.

We send a lot of good information, like market
information, weekly marketinformation, what's going on the
market out actually marks weeklycarrier port with what's going
on the market, and what he seesthat actually going to be
happening. And it's that'sreally detailed. It's detailed
mark, from what Mark does is he,he'll top highlight a few key
points like these are some keypoints that you want to share

(02:02:12):
with your shippers. And thereason we do this, and I think
this is, like, spectacular,because sometimes you're like,
Well, I have nothing to call acustomer about. Well, guess
what? You got two points herethat are going to definitely
affect your customer in the nextcoming weeks, that you can use
that to share with them asyou're open. Hey, I was thinking
about this. What I just saw, Ijust read, and this could have
an impact on your business. Hey,do you have five minutes to

(02:02:33):
chat? Well, guess what? I'm surethe customers can be like, Yeah,
I want to understand what thisis. So have a purpose when you
call and have something that'sgoing to be of value to them and
to their business. Are you

seeing folks with all the, I guess,
uncertainty in the market? Areyou seeing them jump more into
becoming a freight agent ormaybe just trying to stay in a
stable spot, or what theypresume is stable,

yeah, anything you see a bit of both. I mean, it's,
I mean, we can have coldconversation on this too. Like,
you know, what, if you come froma role where you have a salary
and a commission, that's,that's, that's pretty safe,
right? Let's say, and, you know,you got a family, you got a
mortgage, you got kids, like topull yourself away from that
some, yeah, sometimes that's,that's, that's a challenge,
right? You really have to bet onyourself. You have to bet on

(02:03:17):
your skills, that you know that,and your and your drive, that
you're gonna be able to do it.
Whereas some, some people comeon right away, and they just
know what they have. They'regonna, they're gonna, they're
gonna do it, and they do it. ButI'm starting to see a lot. I
think a lot of a lot. What wesee now is a lot of people were
uneducated in the past, but whatit was to be a freight agent,
and I think now there's so muchmarketing. I mean, part of it is
what we were doing with you andwith Chris jolly, and even we're

(02:03:38):
doing what Trey about educatingthe market on what it is to be a
freight agent, and even puttingour agents on the shows to for
them to share their experience.
I think, if anything, and thatwas the start of why we did it.
Was because if we could put afreight agent on there, and they
could share their journey from,you know, the time they they
decided to do it, and the endand the benefits and even some

(02:04:01):
of the challenges that theyfaced, those things are great
for the market, and just helpingthem understand what it is to be
a freight agent and what to beprepared for. From hearing from
here, from somebody who'sactually done it.

I don't think that any other
agency, freight agency programis has done that. Think they're
all very scared of putting theiragents front and center.

Yeah, you know the one thing, I mean, we scale back
our bill. Yes, we were three. Wedon't. We're three people, but
really we're a service to athree PL. So I have to make
sure, and Joe has always saidthis from the beginning, goes,
What's our stickiness factorwith our agents? So I have to
give them everything that theypossibly can to be successful,
so they don't want to leave. Imean, we've been doing this now.

(02:04:42):
What have we noticed for now?
Three four years,

three years. Yeah, almost three years.
It'll be three years. We've donethis

for three in January for this, not putting
the challenge out there toanybody. But we haven't lost an
agent because we put them on theagent because we put them on the
show, banging my head on thewood. But seriously, it's, you
know what we're doing toeducate, educate the market.
That's a big thing too. And ouragents want to share their
story. I mean, and some of themhave phenomenal stories. Some of

(02:05:11):
them were different stories.

Like, he, like, one of my favorite
conversations ever, and he'sbeen on the show twice, and he
hires all his family members,

and it's, and you cannot, you cannot say there is
one mold for each freight agentthere, there are. They're all
different. Their circumstancesare different. Their business is
different. It's, it's awesome.
Like, it really is awesome. Iwish I knew about it more 15
years ago, because 15 years agoit wasn't, it wasn't widely
known, it wasn't widelyunderstood. And I think now

(02:05:39):
you're starting to see thatpeople now understand it. People
still have reservations aboutit, and you have to do your
research. It's got to ifanyone's looking to be a freight
agent, I recommend take a lookat a few and it's got to be the
right fit. You got to know inyour heart that that's the right
company to go with.

How do you know what, what are your
same thing for

us, I don't bring on every single person that
wants to be afraid. It's got tobe the right fit for both and
once you establish that it's theright fit for both people and
it's a win, win, those are therelationships that work. What
does a good win look like forsomebody else who's getting you
know, they're they're having thegood technology. They're having
good back office support. Theyfeel comfortable with the team.

(02:06:18):
One thing we do, like, when anagent comes on board or is
interested in looking at SPI,you know, it's a conversation
we'll start with Bob. I'll havea conversation with him too. And
then from there, what we'll dois we'll go listen. We want you
to demo our TM. System. So we'llgive them a demo on our TMS
system, and from there, becauseour TMS system, who's doing the
the demo on it is the clientcare team. Well, guess what? The

(02:06:40):
client care team is who are backoffice support team is who
they're dealing with on a dailybasis for, you know, challenges
or issues that they face. Sothey all started to start
developing a relationship with abunch of people within SBI, and
that's where the comfort levelcomes in. And I'll tell you,
client care is the ones thatkeeps the customers happy.
They're the ones that keep theagents, because they're dealing
with them. When there's issues,there's challenges, need a

(02:07:03):
carrier on board or quick, needcredit, they all go to client
care, and client care there tosupport them. So it's it's
pretty amazing.

It's kind of like you're all you're
you're vetting each other,absolutely, both.

You have to, I mean, we vet them too. And
actually, it's interesting whena when an agent gets, you know,
goes to the demo too, likeyou'll get a message from the
client care team, and they'llsay, Hey, did a demo and so and
so, and they almost write areport on what the agents like
to thinking they're gonna, youknow, they'll put their
comments, and I think he'll be areally good fit for us. And
that's great. The more great.
The more people that actuallymeet them will know if they're
going to be a good fit for SPI.

(02:07:37):
And the same time too, thatagent should be interviewing us
to see if it's going to be agood fit

for them. Now, I know one of the
other big selling advantages ofSPI is that you don't have a lot
of agent saturation across thecountry. Now, are there certain
areas of the country that youwant to fill those gaps that
you're comfortable talking with,or maybe globally, or that's
interesting.

We've, you know, we're actually been looking now
even at agents globally as welltoo. We have some, I think it's
so cool, like, we have some. Wehave an agent actually out of
Spain. We have one otherSoutheast Asia so, and they're
all working in the in the USmarket. So the business has gone
globally, but even for like, youknow what? Well, 80% of our
agents are actually in the US,running us to us, cargo, our
market is actually the US. OurCanadian business is a small

(02:08:21):
portion. But you know what, Idon't look at a certain region
where I want agents. I'm lookingfor just the right fit of an
agent, and it's got to be theright fit for them too. And when
it comes to saturation, I dobelieve that we have low
saturation. And you know what,if they're concerned about it,
we'll sign, we'll we'll sign anNDA with that potential agent,
and they'll disclose, you know,the customers that they have,

(02:08:41):
and we'll let them know who'sworking on them, or if they're
open for them. I think that's abig thing to do is vet your
customers before you go and joinan agency, because the last
thing you want to do is go on tothere and or join an agency and
realize that you know a third ofyour customers are already being
handled by another agent. That'dbe a little disheartening. And
if you're looking to actuallygrow your business, make ask

(02:09:03):
about the saturation, how manyagents they actually have?
Because another big thing thatwe hear is they're leaving
certain agencies because thereis too much saturation, and
there's no room for them togrow, because all the accounts
are actually being handled. Soit's all kinds of things to look
for. Look at look at that. Lookat Tech. Look at the technology
stack, like demo the technology,you know, make sure that
technology will work for you.
Ask questions about, you know,their carrier onboarding. You

(02:09:24):
know, what kind of tools areusing for carry onboarding?
Yeah, fraud help, claims help.
That's another big one. Like,what happens when there's a
claim? Who handles the claim?
What happens if there's baddebt? Do I get stuck with the
bad debt? Or, just like, ask allthose questions. Ask about, you
know, the relationships withcarriers, and how many days you
actually, on average, pay yourcarriers. That's huge. That's a

(02:09:46):
big thing right now to be askingas well, too, because carriers
are being selective, who whatbrokers are actually dealing
with. So whole bunch

of education happening on all
sides. Absolutely like that,from the brokers, the shippers,
the carriers. But it also, Iwould imagine that on the flip
side, I mean, especially online,what you're going to get, you
know, a different, I guess, kindof comment online where it feels
like there's they're almostadversarial to each other, but
there seems to be concertedefforts to bring more brokers

(02:10:17):
and carriers together, so thenthat way they're solving those
problems for their members.

I mean, that's one big thing that we really
focusing on, is the carrier andbroker relationship and finding
the right where do you want?
Where's your key lanes that thatthat you want to run, that are
good for you, and where can wesupport you on those and
building a relationship withthem? Because a lot of these
carriers, they don't have adedicated sales team. Well, all
sudden, now you got, you know,you're part of a network of 70
agents that are running cargoall over the world. They're

(02:10:45):
probably have cargo that couldactually fit for you, so let
them be your sales team andsupport you.

That's very true. I mean, I feel like
we've, we've hit on a lot ofdifferent trends. Even talked
about Disney World. Florida isvery sensitive world, I guess
where should so if I'm if I'mthinking about making the jump,

(02:11:12):
and I know we've talked aboutthis before, but I'm curious if
that has changed for 2025 andmoving forward, if I'm thinking
about making the jump, I want tohave conversations with my
customers. How do I kind of dothat on maybe, like the down
low. So you're currentlycareful, yeah, be careful

with that. But I think you've got a good
relationship with the customer.
You know? We. And you can talkto them about, you know, I'd be
making a move, you know, havethe conversation. Would you
still continue to work with meif I was a different company?

Do NDAs play or non competes.

So play around on that as well, too. It's
different in the US when itcomes to non competes versus
Canada. But I don't know, I findlike, there's workarounds with
the non competes, but it's theaspect of the non solicit. Of a
non solicit, you still got, yougot some, you got some things
you got to look out to with,with a lawyer. I want to get in

Wait, yeah, which was another
suggestion by Christian, ismaking sure that you have a
lawyer as well that can readthrough some of these complex
things and help you prepared tomake that jump. And then also
having, you know, a little bitof a lifeline. Six to 12 months
of saving you have to, you

have to give yourself a lifeline if you think
that you're going to come onboard and right away and in
month one, you'll be making, youknow what you expect to be
making. It takes time, I mean, alot of big companies that you
may be dealing with, for them toonboard you as a as a new
broker. That takes time. I'veseen that take up to six weeks,
like trying to deal with a largecompany, where it has to go
through the hands of differentpeople, that takes time. So you

(02:12:36):
got to be prepared.

Yeah, it's not just you that has to be
onboarded, but it's all of yourcustomers as well. And maybe
there's some different, youknow, hoops that you got to jump
through on that front as well.

I've seen, I've seen agents come on board in the
first week. They're, they'reroll, that they they're rolling,
but they have their they havethings set up ahead of time.
Then I've seen ones that'staken, you know, three months
for them to get things going.
I've seen ones have taken sixmonths. But be prepared that it
doesn't happen overnight, and beable to be able to weather the
storm, because a lot of times,some eight, some great freight
agents will come on board who Iknow have the potential, and
they'll give up two things thatdidn't happen fast enough. So be

(02:13:07):
prepared for it.

Yeah, I mean, it's expert. You got to
be able to put in the work thatnothing is going to come
passively. There's no such thingas passive income and kind of
get on that hamster wheel andkeep rolling.

You always got to be working. You always got to be
working. It's gone well for you,though, too.

Yeah, absolutely. The podcast is
really the best thing that'sever happened to me, thanks in
part to

Unknown (02:13:34):
SPI support. And remember that conversation we
had that where freight waves,yep, the day

after my show, cyberly ended, what my
contract ended on October 31 andfreight waves started on
November 1. And so it was liketheir annual event, the f3
event. And so we had thatconversation all day, the very
next day, and I was like, Youknow what? I'm on to something
here. I'm, you know, I thinkI'll be

I'm glad that you did it. I'm glad that we talked,
because I can honestly say itwas the first one, the first one
to join.

That's good. Yeah, it's been an amazing
partnership. And the cool thing

is, you've met our agents, you've talked to our
agents, you've come torendezvous like, I think, for
like, for you, and even forChris, well, actually, even did
Trey come to like, for the factthat you actually got to meet
our like, our agents, and seeour culture is huge.

Well, it's their business owners as
well. Like, I mean, you kind ofhinted at it at the start of
this episode that, you know,it's like 70 different
entrepreneurs, that each of themare all different, and being
able to connect with them andlearn their story. And it was a
pleasure,

and I think the partnership on that side has
worked out really well. I thinkyou know just as much about SPI
as I know about SBI, like you'vetalked to every single I think
in some cases, you probablytalked to the agents more

than I have well. I mean, it's
fantastic conversations, becauseI learned something new. Because
I think that the entrepreneurialspirit behind them that they
have, and it's very I canidentify with that, because you
you have to do it all. You haveto know a little bit about
everything. And I think thathaving that skill set will aid
you in the future, as AI andtechnology take over more and

(02:15:08):
more, you have to dabble in alittle bit of everything in
order to be successful, totally.

I think it's kind of interesting, because you've
interviewed so many of ouragents. Like each story is
different. Yeah, like eachstory, and

I'm always surprised by the numbers
of like what resonates with theaudience, of what doesn't. I
think before we startedrecording, I told you that Chris
Angelo's story from the earlierthis year has been our top
episode this year in 2025 andthat was the from engineer to
freight agent model. He wasinteresting.

Yeah, even the store is Chris becoming a
freight agent is actually, yeah.
Anyways, I think this was, thiswas, it was funny, like, we're
talking about this, James and I,like, three years ago when we
kind of were talking about,like, we want to start, we
wanted to make our own podcast,but we don't know what the heck
we're doing. And that's where,like, you know, I was like,
well, sponsor. It was, it was,it was an awesome marketing
decision for us, because I thinkit really, it really, it helped

(02:15:57):
get what the agent model is. Buteven just market ourselves, it
was great. And I think it gaveour agents an avenue to share
their story. And some

of the I tell other potential sponsors
and sponsors I work with that.
Yes, it's definitely importantto hear from the executive
leadership team, but if you canhave your customers on a show,
then that customer telling thatstory, it hits differently. We
had that happen with Tysoftware, where their
executives, fantastic team, theyhad one of their customers come
on and tell their story and it.

(02:16:30):
Was the top episode out of allof our Thai episodes, really.
And it was the customer tellingthe story of everything he went
through to buy a new TMS andwhat he vetted, and the
questions he asked. And that'sthe same thing that freight
agents are asking, or potentialfreight

agents and changing software. That's a huge
that's huge, especially a TMS,exactly. Especially with an
agent model, they try to changeyour TMS with an agent model,
oh, my goodness, that's, that's,that's not even not an easy fee.
You get a lot of resistance. Iwas gonna say, like, how is that
in the sound to Revan Nova? Itwas, it was, it was tough. Yeah.
I mean, I mean, now, you know,it takes a bit to work on all

(02:17:07):
the bugs and everything, butonce that's done it, you know,
people get used to it and theysee the benefit of it, but any
type of a new softwareimplementation is even without
the highway that wasn't easy,that wasn't easy either. But you
know, through all those things,in the challenge of onboarding
and getting your agent or yourstaff to adopt to a new program
that takes time, but But I yourtech providers play an

(02:17:29):
instrumental role and helpselling that too.

Speaking of top episodes as a Peralta,
who is head of it for SPI, likehis episodes, also, we've had
him on twice, and I think peoplewant to hear that point of view
as well before they decide ifthey're going to even have a
phone call with SBI.

That guy is an absolute genius when it comes to
technology, like he talks aboutthis like, in awe, wow. Like I
I'm not a smart guy when itcomes to technology.

Well, what I love about that his
approach is that he creates thiscentral hub, and then all of the
spokes on it can either beprovided by SPI or they could
build your current tech stackinto that hub model. And it's
awesome, ultimate flexibility.

And he has so much passion for it, like he loves it
like he just, he's passionatewhat he builds. I think he's an
absolute genius, man. I got alot of respect for that guy, all
right.

Well, I think we've, I mean, that's, I
think it's a good place to leaveit, unless there's anything else
that you feel is important tomention to anybody. Maybe, maybe
you're a current freight agentat another company you're
looking to shop. You kind ofalready gave that advice.

I'll be honest when it when it comes I'm, look,
I don't do not. I'm not tryingto sell anybody. I'm just trying
to help educate somebody. And ifthey have questions, just want
to chat, you know what? Justhave a chat. I am not the pushy
guy. In fact, it's most timesit's driven by the agent, okay,
I want to join. It's like, allright, because it's a good fit
for them, right? But just havethe conversation. There is no
pressure. Having a conversation,either thinking about it, or

(02:18:52):
you're with as a w2 and you'rethinking about becoming a 1099,
and want to know what you know,what that's gonna look like,
what onboarding is gonna looklike. Conversation. I'm happy to
share. I'm happy, happy toeducate. And just have a real
conversation.

And even if you can't make the jump
tomorrow, you can startpreparing yourself to make the
jump eventually.

It'll never come with the pressure that, the
pressure to join or the pressureto do it. Let's just have a
conversation at the end of theday.

It's got to make sense to you. Mike,
working, that's a perfect way toend the discussion. Mike, where
can folks follow you? Get withSBI.

Follow me on LinkedIn. You guys are posting
more often, too. A lot more.
Yeah, it's awesome. A lot more.
You know, they reach me throughmy email. Are you gonna post it?
Or do I have to, like, say itout loud? I'll just put it in
the show, put on the show, orcall myself. I mean, you put it
on the show, but I'm happy totalk.

I'll put it in the show notes. We'll
see if you're a good fit or not,and it's not for both sides.

Gotta make sense.
You just got questions. Justwant to talk about it. Yeah, I'm
happy to have that conversation.

Awesome.
And there is landing page,resource materials, all on
everything is logistics.com. Incase you want to check out any
of those past interviews thatwe've been talking about with
the executive team or thefreight agents. And if that's
what they

want to do is just throw it on through that landing
page and put your informationthere and go, Hey, I want to
talk to Mike. Just watch theshow. Just do that. There's no
pressure, doesn't they're notYou're not going to get 1000
emails from anybody that'ssaying you need to join or what
are you joining or getadvertised? Pop it up on your
page with a one up, and we'rejust having an education
Exactly.

Blythe Brumleve Milliga (02:20:16):
There's no no cookie tracking, maybe a
little bit of Google Analytics,but that's it. Mike, thank you.
The freight tech hype cycle isreal, but behind the buzzwords
are folks actually building theplumbing that keeps your freight
offs running as a Peralta is oneof them, and he is back with SPI

(02:20:40):
logistics, VP of technology onthe everything is logistics
podcast. In order to break itall down for us, I am your host,
Blythe Milligan, and of course,we are presented by SPI
logistics, and I was justtelling essay his last
appearance on the podcast acouple years ago, I believe is
our most popular SPI logisticsepisode. So sorry to everyone

(02:21:00):
you know within SBI that's comeon the show. But people love
essay.

Ezequiel Peralta (02:21:07):
We all go to friends, so I so it's all good,
I think,

no competition, or let's, let's set
the stage. So for SBI, for folkswho may not be familiar with
your role within SBI, can youkind of give us a high level
overview of what you do on maybea day to day basis, a weekly
basis, what does, I guess, a. Aweek in the life of SA look

(02:21:32):
like?

Well, there's we have two main areas. So one
is the things that we arebuilding internally. The other
area is the things that we needto maintain or integrate or are
in relation to tech vendors. Andso there's a bit of swing
between between those twoaspects. So a lot of the time is

(02:21:59):
meetings, meetings with vendorstrying to align the roadmaps of
what we're trying to do withwhat they're trying to do,
trying to keep up with all thethe new features that the new
vendors that come up, it's, it'sa lot of time, because
evaluating tools and evaluatingnext steps and trying to

(02:22:23):
sometimes might maintain theroadmap, but at the same time
being flexible enough to pivot.
So a lot of a lot of the time isthat kind of more strategic
point of view. And then there'sa lot of time that is just
coding or, you know, jumpinginto the the actual
implementation, a lot ofmodeling and diagramming with

(02:22:47):
the with the business users aswell. A great deal of the of
software development. A lot ofpeople focus on on the coding
side with software development,but in my experience, software
development is a lot aboutmodeling and understanding what
you need to build beforestarting to build. Right? It's

(02:23:09):
like, for example, you're goingto build a house. You're not
going to start, you know,cutting wood and laying bricks
right away. You need some sortof blueprint. You need some sort
of understanding of what needsto be built. You need to
understand even, you know, theterrain, where you're going to
work with and, and, and a lot ofother factors. So a lot of the

(02:23:32):
time goes into that as well.

And so for folks who may not be aware,
you know, SPI Logistics is afreight agency, and so you don't
have any some freight agencieswill have an in house brokerage
team or an in house truckingteam. SPI doesn't do that
because they their internal teamis set up and dedicated just to
support their agents. And so youguys are, I believe in correct

(02:23:58):
me if I'm wrong, but you guyshave a general tech stack that
you use, but then you alsoaccommodate the freight agents.
And maybe if they have, like, aparticular tech tool that they
like to use, you'll incorporatethat into sort of, I guess the
the mothership of SBI, is thataccurate?

Yes, yes, correct. So we try to embrace
also that diversity in our agentagents network. And you're
correct? Yes, we, we spendquite, quite a bit of effort on
understanding those needs andalso offering the tools that we

(02:24:36):
have to enhance the existingoperations when, when agents on
board with us, so because maybethey already have certain
workflows that they alreadyapplying, and that's effective
for them. So we don't forceanybody to okay, this is the way
how you should do it. But we dooffer the tech stack we have,

(02:24:57):
but also open to incorporate andintegrate other technologies
that agents might bring when,when they on board and trying,
trying to augment and enhancetheir operations and and and
then this goes in line wheresaying before of understanding
what is needed before going intothe how we're going to do it

(02:25:19):
right. Once we know what isneeded and what is the most
helpful for our agents, then wecan decide, okay, you know, how
we implement it? Sometimes thatis getting a new vendor
sometimes is, you know, buildingsome customization on an
existing tool. It could take anyshape, basically.

Are there any sets of tools that
your agents are using every day?

Well, the TMS is what you know our agents use
every day. And I think theoperations we have, the track
and trace capabilities that thatsometimes some agents would go
directly into the trackingportals because they have
specific needs, or some otheragents will use them. Use these

(02:26:11):
tracking capabilities within theTMS similarly with posting.
Sometimes people would use, youknow, posting directly to the
boards. Sometimes peoplewouldn't do it through the TMS,
but we tried to have a layer ofcontrol of all that data and
where it goes, where it's comingfrom, so we can also offer some
insight. And analytics on onthat data as well. And then we

(02:26:35):
have, yeah, for example, toolsfor procurement, capacity or
risk management that we createdinternally. And a lot of the
times, what we do is try toaggregate that very vast
landscape of data into moreactionable information. So you
know, instead of our agenthaving to go into five different

(02:26:55):
portals to make sure that theircarrier is not fraudulent, then
we kind of, like consolidate allthat data and we say, hey, yeah,
this is, this is a good to gocarrier, or this is flagged for
these reasons. Yeah, trying toalso combat that tiredness that

(02:27:15):
comes that sometimes people dropthe ball on certain things
related to risk, because it'sjust too cumbersome going into
different places to having tocheck in 10 different portals to
make sure that you know yourprovider is good to go so people
stop doing it right? People stopchecking because it's just

(02:27:36):
cumbersome. So we try to alsothink about that and, like, make
sure that we make it easy so, sothose tools are used.

Oh, that's super interesting. So you
essentially are, you know, usingdifferent maybe, and I'm just
spitballing here, but like, ahighway and a carrier, sure. And
you know, some of these, thesevendors that do are in the same
realm, but do things a littlebit differently, but they all
help give a fuller picture. Andso you're able to build that

(02:28:03):
into a dashboard for youragents,

yeah, and sometimes, sometimes even
aggregating it, we have toolswhere the result is, you know,
you're good, you're not good andup to that point. And then if
you want to see more details,you can go into the portals, or
you can expand on those details.
But yes, we do that, like withall the compliance vendors we
have, because sometimes, youknow, maybe highway has some
insights or flags about specificthings, like, for example, where

(02:28:30):
these people, these carriers,are accessing the system from,
but then maybe freight guard,they have very, you know, if
people who are reporting thesecarriers, but right for one, for
example, so unique both right,because one will give you, you
know, certain Insights. Theother one is going to give you,

(02:28:51):
I don't know highway forexample, give you insurance
information, inspectioninformation, but if someone got
burnt by by a bad actor, thefirst thing they're going to do
is, most likely, is reporting itto 401, so we also want to, you
know action on those thosereports as well.

So one of, and I heard you talking
about this with Chris jolly onthe freight freight coach
podcast, that you guys were attechnovations, tias,
technovations in late 2024, I'msorry I missed that. It was
actually in Jacksonville,Florida, but I was getting
married that week, so Icouldn't, oh, I couldn't sneak
away to go to that to go to thatconference, but I heard that AI

(02:29:36):
was just everywhere, as it iswith most you know, freight
conferences right now, what'swhat's your, I hear you laugh in
there. What's your, I guessoverall take on, is it hype? Is
it a buzzword? Is it, yeah, isit valuable is it kind of all of
the above?

I think, I think it's all of the above. And
I think AI is a very vast field,so it's not the same. Saying,
You know what? We are using thehype, this current hype wave of
AI, it most related to largelanguage models, which is, you

(02:30:14):
know, the chat GPT, butartificial intelligence
something that existed for awhile. Now, the computing has
gone, you know, it's moreavailable and for companies to
use these large language models,and the training techniques have
improved, but before we hadmachine learning or other types

(02:30:35):
of of artificial intelligenceapplied to analytics or
different aspects likeforecasting and these kind of
things. So I do find it veryvaluable for a lot of use cases.
We use it internally a lot inour like our dev team uses this,

(02:30:55):
use it quite a bit, but also wewe are cautious to not try to
chase AI or implementation orany tool like AI or any other
tool, just just for, justbecause everyone else is doing
it, or just because, you know,it appears to be the solution,

(02:31:19):
magic solution, to all these usecases we we are of the idea that
alignment between business andtechnology is. Key. You know,
integration and governance ofall the integrations is key.
Governance of data is key. Sothose things what we focus on,

(02:31:41):
and if there is, you know, if AIcan help us to achieve that, to
achieve the the businessoutcomes that we want to achieve
and improve the KPI we want toachieve. Then we evaluate it as
we evaluate any other tool, andthen we we apply it, right? But
we are, you know? We try to keepfocus on what is important for

(02:32:05):
our agents, what is importantfor for the business as an
organization. And, yeah, we douse AI and in many ways, and we
are adding more use cases to it.
But at the same time, I, I thinkthere is this notion that is
going to come and solveeverything for everyone, and

(02:32:26):
suddenly it replace workers andall this thing and like, that's
that's not something that, Imean, we don't see it that way
as much. Yeah, you can, you canautomate phone calls and these
things. But what about the whenthings go wrong? Nobody wants to

(02:32:48):
talk with a machine. And most ofthe logistic business is
managing risk, right? And areyou going to let a machine to
manage that risk for you? Areyou going to let a machine do
that negotiation or do that, youknow, relationship building for
you? So it's, yeah, if, if youhave a mature enough system,

(02:33:17):
then you can connect with yourshipper via API. And then you
don't need to have, like a voiceagent, you know, calling a
shipper or but at the same time,there are certain, there are
certain, there are certain usecases that, yes, you know, for
support, we had theseautoresponders for phone for
years, where you say, hey, youknow, give me your low number.

(02:33:41):
You just type it in the phone.
And so it's not very, you know,it's not that different than
that. And then, and then youhave also the ethics aspect,
which is I was reading aLinkedIn post. I don't remember
who it was from, but it wassomething in the lines of, I was

(02:34:01):
talking with an AI rep, and Iasked if it was an AI. They said
no, but then they found out thatit actually was an AI, but it
seems that this AI was trainedto lie right, to say that he was
not an AI. So I think, you know,we should keep being honest. So

(02:34:21):
that's non negotiable, right?

No, that's a very good point. And I
think that that's something thatyou know, that's a concern that
we've raised in the past and inprevious episodes on, when do
you disclose that you're talkingto an AI agent? And I think most
people are fine talking to an AIagent when they need an answer
quickly about something, youknow, where is my load? You

(02:34:44):
know, something like that. Butfor you know, a deeper, maybe
customer relationship, there isa level of you should probably
disclose you know that thatinformation as quickly as
possible, so then that way theperson can make that preference
on if they want to talk tosomebody real or talk to a

(02:35:04):
virtual agent. I would becurious to know, what other
maybe use cases are you seeing?
You know, maybe two differentuse cases. One where, you know,
it's machine learning that'sactually doing the job and
you're using that. But then, onthe flip side, a large language
model. I'm curious about the theuse cases for each of those that
you're seeing.

So machine learning is mostly used on, you
know, analytics and forecastingor finding anomalies or things
like this. So you have, youknow, data from the last, let's
say, 10 years, and then you tryto find, you know, seasonality.
You try to find, like certainpatterns that would be more

(02:35:45):
difficult to find just manuallyor trying to dig into all that
data so and so for that is, is,that's a good, good use case.
And you can also train it tofind trends, you know. Oh, we,
you know, when these, when thesemetrics are, how metrics relate,

(02:36:06):
oh, when these two metrics aregoing down, it means that your
business is trending up, or, Idon't know, or you start finding
those relationships. And so foranalyzing those huge amounts of
of data, it's, it's machinelearning, it's, it's, it's
valuable. And for large languagemodels, I think the important

(02:36:29):
part to understand is. That nomatter what the what the vendors
say, they don't reason rightreasoning is a different thing.
They just predict the nexttoken, the next the next symbol
that should be there accordingto their calculation or their
training. So what I find reallyinteresting for as a use case is

(02:36:51):
categorization and theninterpreting natural language
texts, for example, emails,tagging an email saying you can
plug it into your inbox and say,Okay, I have 20 call requests.
So in a day, I have 20 quoterequests. I have 10 track and
trace request, or where is myload kind of questions. Then

(02:37:16):
they have 15 carrier carriersasking for posting, and then I
have three complaints and andthen you can, you know,
categorize all of that, andeventually you're going to have
enough data to understand youryour own inbox, for example,
much better, right? And thenfrom there, you can automate,

(02:37:38):
oh, when, when these type ofrequest comes in, or this type
of email comes in, then you canauto generate a response, as
long as it fits with the withthat category, right? So
categorizing, I would say,understanding topics or subject
on, on text, and then creatingsome sort of simple, simple

(02:38:02):
responses or template responsesfor certain type of inquiries.
Those are, I think, really gooduse cases.

And then I with, as you were
talking, I was thinking about,you know, is there any, I guess,
safety issues that go on with,you know, using a large language
model that, you know, maybeagents should be a little
cautious of, of putting, youknow, personal information maybe
into some of these systems, oris it that concern may be

(02:38:35):
largely overblown?

No, I think, I think that is it all depends on
on the architecture that youhave behind it, right? So, for
example, we are talking with ourteam about cases where you see
people doing this that they callnow vive coding, which is like,

I hate that phrase.

It is what it is, and yeah. And then people
were able to hack applicationsbuilt in this way in 30 minutes,
just because the credentialswere all pasted over in the
code. So you could just go intothe repository, public
repository, and see all thecredentials for for for

(02:39:21):
different API's and things.
Because, yeah, if, if you knowwhat you're doing, you wouldn't
do that, right? So if you don'tknow what you're doing, then you
maybe think, is fine. You trustthat the AI will do it okay for
you, and then you just ask theAI or make it secure. That just
doesn't work. You can't justtell the Oh, make make this

(02:39:42):
application for me. Make itsecure. I wish it was like that,
but, you know, there's so muchmore to it. So I think security
is one of the big, big topics tothink about when thinking about
AI for sure,

what about from the email side of
things? Because I personallystruggle with sorting through my
email on a daily basis, and Ican't imagine what you know, a
typical freight agent is goingthrough with their email inbox.
What kind of tools are youseeing that's helping to
categorize those emails? Is itall strictly done through the

(02:40:22):
TMS, or is it, you know, a bunchof different tools that can
help, you know, categorize thoseemails. Maybe, you know, auto
respond to them, you know, getrid of the junk. Is it a bunch
of tools, or is it one or tworeally good tools?

So, I mean, there are a lot of tools, and
I'm probably missing a lot here,but so our the TMS that we use
ravinova, they are adding nowfeatures that natively allow you
to to use AI and connect youremail to it, and, and they will,

(02:40:56):
it will create loads for you,and it will create truck
postings for you, and, and, andalso, with all the automation
that exists already available inSalesforce, you can create these
responses back and connect it toall the the the other existing
workflow. So for us, that'sthat's a really good one. And
levity, I think, is doing a lotof a lot of work on that as

(02:41:19):
well. I personally like the whatthey have there. And then what
I'm seeing also is that even theexisting client, you. Email
clients are starting to add allthese features internally, like,
if you have, for example,Outlook, you could grab, you
know, power automate, which istheir little automation tool,

(02:41:40):
and you could have littleworkflows that categorize emails
and use the AI within theMicrosoft environment. And that
should be at least, you know, ifyou already trusting outlook,
then you know you can keep youryour existing data already
there, and it will not leavethat, leave that environment and
that that might be interesting.
Gmail, I think it's also addingall of that. And I think

(02:42:05):
eventually all the TMS are goingto start doing that. I know that
other TMS for brokers as wellhave already that. I know that.
Yeah, tools like Bray, the alsohave some email automation going
on. I haven't tested it freely,but yeah, I think all of those

(02:42:27):
tools should do a good job on,on, on your categorizing emails.
It's not at the same time, I'veseen more and more orchestration
tools, or the tools that allowyou like to create your own
automations, and a lot of peopleare starting to to build their
own automations around email. Iwas talking with Sarah from Ali

(02:42:52):
logistics, and she was tellingme about some AI tools and that
they're using for some usecases. And I think it's called
Solar, solar AI. And so any toolshould work again. It all comes
down. I want to bring it back tohave you modeled your business

(02:43:12):
process. Do you know what yourbusiness process is? Do you know
how you're going to measure ifyour process is working or not?
Have you Do you know what's theoutcome that you're trying to
achieve? Because if you don'tknow that, then you're going to
go into how the implementationwithout knowing the what, and
then you know it might fail. Andthen you're going to think that

(02:43:33):
the problem is the tool that theproblem is, oh, this AI is not
working, or this doesn't work,but, but how are you even
measuring if it's working ornot? Because you didn't know
what your performance wasbefore. You don't know the
metric that you need to look atto know what your if your
performance improved. So thenit's like, it's all going to be

(02:43:54):
gut feeling. And of course, thegut feeling at the beginning of
implementing a new technology,the gut feeling is going to be
frustration, most likely. But ifyou have the metrics in place
and the business processesmodeled properly, then you're
going to realize that, oh, well,I'm frustrated because I don't

(02:44:14):
know how to use this tool, butobjectively, these metrics are
improving, right? So I likealways taking it back to that,
like the business process needsto be solid and needs to be
documented, needs to be refined.
And it missed, because, if not,you end up with the vendor

(02:44:38):
deciding for you how you shouldbe working. And that's, I think,
advice for anyone evaluatingtech. You know, tech vendors
will generally tell you thatthey can do everything? You're
going to ask them, Oh, can youdo this? They're going to say
yes, because generally you'retalking with a project manager
or a sales representative. Andthen they're going to go to the

(02:45:02):
developers, like teams, like myteam, and they're going to say,
Hey, I sold this. I sold thisnew feature. Now you need to
build it. And then when you rollit out, then you're like, well,
but like, how does this matchwith my existing workflow? What?
And there's a lot of friction.
So if you don't know exactlywhat you're looking for in terms

(02:45:24):
of business processes, it'sgoing to be harder for a vendor
to to be effective, right? Andit's, sometimes it's not even a
problem of the vendor, because,you know, these are tools, and
if you don't know what to dowith the tool, then also it's,
you know, it needs to be on bothsides, a commitment on both

(02:45:46):
sides,

yeah, no one wants to do the the
boring and really underrated.
Challenging part is documentingyour processes, because you have
to be prepared to rip them allout if they're not working, but
just simply documenting them isI find it personal experience,
just very like draining on mybrain. But once I get it done,
that I'm so relieved, becausethen I can figure out, okay,

(02:46:12):
what do I need to do? What can Ioutsource? What can a tool do?
And I'm curious as as to how youhow do you approach helping
agents document their process?

So something that we do is, uh. A visiting
agents, because being on sitewith with the people who are
executing the tasks andexecuting the processes, I'm
able to understand much betterall the nuances, right? And
also, you know, I don't likethis idea of the tech team

(02:46:55):
being, like isolated, and then,you know, requirements come in,
and people, you know, the devteam doesn't know what the
process is. And we try to all ofour team is involved in, in in
these modeling sessions and, andwe, generally we try, because we
know also that agents are verybusy, and we don't want to also,

(02:47:18):
you know, take out too much timeor effort on that. But when we
do this visit, we try todocument as much as we can about
what we see. And then we come upwith a plan of, okay, this is,
this is the process that we see,these are the points, the
critical points that we couldmaybe improve. We have these
tools available to help you onthis particular point and then

(02:47:41):
asking a lot of questions. Ithink listening and asking it's
key, because, again, if we, in away, the tech team is like a
vendor for the agents, right? Ina way, like it's an internal
vendor, but we need to providesomething that makes sense. And

(02:48:02):
in order to be able to do that,we need to understand what the
problems are. And so yeah, a lotof Yeah, listening and going on
visits, because on a zoom call,you can get an idea, but
sometimes you just need to bethere to really to hear the
phone ringing and, oh, how manyyou know, how much of the time

(02:48:25):
is being spent on answering thiscall? Oh, what if we have a tool
here that can filter out thesecalls and like, you know, tell
you which, which call you shouldtake first, and how, how do you,
you know, how does that impactyour overall time to cover a
load, for example? Just, just togive you one example, something

(02:48:46):
that we did was also one of ouragents were, was having a lot of
inquiries for posted loads fromfrom boards. And what we were
they were copying and pasting atemplate to respond to these
inquiries. We're like, Oh, whatif we tried to automate that? So
we just said, it said you justset up all the your pricing in

(02:49:08):
the DMS, and then we can justfind the load that they're
asking for and then give themback that information. And if
it's covered, instead of tellingthem, oh, it's covered, we find
similar loads in similar laneswith them, oh, that load is
covered, but we have these otherloads, right? But we needed to
go visit the agent to reallyunderstand that, right?

How do you approach, you know, when
you're thinking about, you know,onboarding a new agent, or maybe
it's a current agent that is, islooking at a new tool. How do
you decide what to say yes toand what to maybe caution them
on?

Yeah, I don't want to be super repetitive, but
I bring it back to what is theuse case that you're trying to
resolve? What is the businessprocess that this fits in?
Because sometimes you realizethat by moving a few pieces in a
different part of the board,right then you are also, you

(02:50:13):
know, changing the tension on onthe part that you're interested
in. So sometimes it's okay,let's try to quickly understand
at least the skeleton of theprocess that you're doing, and
understand if, if it's a tool,what you need, or maybe it's a

(02:50:34):
shift on some other structure,right? That might be, maybe it's
a tool that we already have andthat they don't know that we
have. Maybe this a trainingissue. Maybe it's a lot of times
comes down to training. It comesdown to knowing the tools that

(02:50:56):
we have available, because thereare so many that sometimes it's
like, well, if you're an agentwho is doing truckload only,
maybe you don't even know thatwe have an LTL program, or that
we have a customer portal that.
So they maybe are looking for avendor that might give them a
portal for LTL integrations, Idon't know. And then, hey, we,

(02:51:17):
we already have that. We, youknow, we, we can just set it up
for you. And so, yeah, a lot oftimes goes back to that
understanding, where does thatfit in the overall business?
This process, and if it'sneeded, then we're going to talk
with the vendor and make surethat can be shared with the
entire network. And sometimes weset it up for a specific office,

(02:51:43):
and we help that specific officeto get that one vendor that they
need. Because reality is thatthere are certain vendors that
make sense when you have aspecific type of office or
specific type of shippers andthere. So it's like, why other
agents should go through theprocess of onboarding that if,
if they don't need it, right?

(02:52:07):
But yeah, it'll just long storyshort, it comes back down to
business process, and where doesthat fit? And technology should
be an enabler of that, not justsomething that you bolt on
trying to just, you know, fix iton itself, a square

peg into a round hole, almost, yeah,
yeah.

And in my experience, those type of
involvements have not gone verywell a lot of the time. It's a
solution in search of a process,right? So let's try to
understand the problem first andsee if this is a good solution.

So with all of the you know, remote
offices, the tools we've talkedabout, how do you approach the
cybersecurity elephant in theroom.

Well, we are, we're cloud. Our TMS is cloud
based. So a lot of is delegatingthe main, the main operational
system that is the TMS,delegating a lot of that
security to to a company likeSalesforce that has, you know,

(02:53:16):
invest billions of dollars in insecurity and and so we don't
hold, we don't have anything onprem, on on servers on prem,
then for The tools that we buildinternally. We are cloud based,
but also use containerizedworkloads that are kind of like

(02:53:40):
disposable. So if like it's weuse, yeah, so it's not that we
have the one big virtual machinewith everything in it. We have
each capability has its owncontainers, and then we have
event driven system thatconnects everything together. So

(02:54:02):
we try to incorporate thesecurity on on the design itself
of the solutions that we do. Sothat's on the aspect of more
like infrastructure security,you know, security access to
your database. We don't have onecentral database where
everything is there. I mean, wedo that have a data warehouse,
but the operational systems youhave each each feature will have

(02:54:25):
its own little world. And ifthat, if that data goes away, we
could reconstruct it, forexample, right? So we tried to
incorporate all that security bydesign. We use for all of
infrastructure. For the technerds out there, we use

(02:54:47):
infrastructure as code. So inorder to deploy infrastructure,
like databases, Virtual Machinesand these kind of things. We're
not just going to a UI ordepending on a person doing
their job right. Everything istemplated and has all the
security measures already inthose templates. So when we

(02:55:09):
deploy it, for example, ourdatabases don't have access to
Internet. In order to access adatabase, you need to go through
some other, some other steps,and only our containers and
virtual machines can accessthose databases. They are not
open, right? Yeah, and we try tocontrol our API. In that way as

(02:55:34):
well, where, if somethingdoesn't need to go over the
internet, it doesn't, it doesn'tgo we only expose to the
internet the things that likehave to be exposed.

So you guys are building fortress over
there is, is essentially whatyou're saying, with several
boats to protect the fortress.

Yeah, and we have in our team, we have
Valentin. He's very, very stricton that aspect as well, and he
knows quite a bit on that frontof infrastructure security. And
so we tried to incorporate allthat. You know, from the get go,
it's like we we don't deploysomething if it doesn't have

(02:56:15):
these characteristics, becauseit will be irresponsible. And
also, in our case, we are agentbased, so data needs to be
siloed, so we cannot expose, youknow, customer data from one
agent to another agent. So allof that is control. In the TMS,
but also we have our ownseparate user pool and security

(02:56:36):
settings that make sure that allthe tools that we build on top
of the TMS and the tools that webuild custom also have that
characteristic right

in your experience, or maybe what
you've seen at other, you know,agency, companies or brokerages,
how, I guess, involved is theinternal IT team when it comes
to, like, freight fraud, are youguys, you know, in there, you
know, trying to help combat itfrom a digital perspective, like
digital warfare, or is that itsort of A separate team that you

(02:57:11):
know maybe closely works, youknow, with the IT team, I'm just
trying to, I guess, maybeunderstand where it kind of
plays a role when it comes tothe, just the dramatic increase
in freight fraud across theindustry.

I think in order to have an effective
security strategy, you needeveryone to be involved, and it
needs the business users to toto be the ones also pushing the
the risk management initiatives.
In our case, we have very luckythat everyone in our team are,
it's, it's, very much aware, orYeah, our VP of Operations, VP

(02:57:55):
of Finance, VP, you know,Director of Career procurement,
and everyone. It's very, verymuch aware of all of this. And
they come up with theinitiatives to us. Then we tell
them what is possible. Then wediscuss what ways we could be
vulnerable. But the IT team isvery aligned with the rest of

(02:58:15):
the business in theseinitiatives, and we all know and
understand, and we try toemphasize that with that team as
well, that what the scenario is,what we are fighting against,
and but I think it needs to be,it cannot be just delegated to
it, because the business userknow a lot more than they they

(02:58:39):
think sometimes about security,because they know how a business
process work. They know, forexample, with when you see these
schemes of fake paperwork, orthese carriers buying MC numbers
and doing all these maneuvers,you know they know all the

(02:59:00):
business user know all theintricacies, intricacies of that
from, from, from the businessperspective. And it can, can put
in place measures to but we needto know how that works
sometimes, and we need to be,yeah, in collaboration
constantly. I think in order tobe effective, you just you need
that. You need everyone onboard. It's not going to work if

(02:59:22):
just delegated to it, becauseit's just going to be a very
partial view, and you're goingto be covering this side, but
then they're going to attack youon the other side. And a lot of
the a lot of the threats aresocial engineering. So there's
only so much you can do on theIT side against social
engineering, because if peopleare giving away their passwords

(02:59:43):
because someone just trickedthem into doing it,

is that sort of the crazier side of
it, that that you've seen isjust people willingly giving up
that information.

Yeah, our James, our CFO always says it
don't click the link. Like, ifyou get an email with a link
that just don't click it, like,you know, you can reply by, you
can call the person. You can,you know, try to, but don't,
don't click it, because most ofthe times when something happens

(03:00:16):
that someone gains access to anemail or something like that, is
because someone clicked thelink, or someone got a call, got
tricked into going to a websitethat was not the actual website.
And there's always somethinglike that. And so, yeah, I think
definitely the most scary part,and the most difficult to combat

(03:00:38):
is the social engineeringthreats.

Are there any examples that you've
seen that have, like, maybe atother companies or something,
what they're dealing with thathas the creativity of a fraud
scheme has almost impressed you.

What impressed me is when the quality of the
emails that people are craftingand sometimes even how they are
putting malicious code inside ofPDFs, for example. So you're not
even clicking a link. You'regetting, you're getting an email
from your boss saying, Hey, canyou check this report for me?

(03:01:21):
And and it's looks exactly likethem, and maybe it is coming
actually from their from theirinbox, because they got access
to that inbox. Box, and I'm nottaking any link, even if it's a
file, right? So you click on thefile, and then you're done. So I

(03:01:41):
think, yeah. Or when a TIA, thekeynote speaker was talking
about how with deep fakes, youcan have someone, some AI,
talking to you as if it's yourboss, for example, asking you to

(03:02:01):
put money on an account, orthings like this. And in this
case, the CEO was talking withthe CFO on a video call, but it
was not the CEO, it was just adeep fake, and they asked them
to put money on an account forfor an acquisition they were
going to do. And they did it andlike, how can you combat that?
Yeah, it's, it's very it's veryhard, right?

Yeah, I think on the podcasting side
of things, I have warned myfamily that I'm like, 30 seconds
of audio is is all it takes todeep fake me. And so if you get
a call from me at you know,first of all, I don't call them,
I text them, so they probablyknow that something was up. But
if you get a call from me, we'vedeveloped like, a safe word

(03:02:49):
within the family that you know,you're going to use in the event
of something like thathappening, where we would call
and, you know, ask for money orsomething like that, we have a
family safe word. It kind ofsounds like maybe we need to do
that at the corporate level too.

Oh, that's definitely, that's multi factor
authentication. Like, when,when? When people do their multi
factor authentication on theirphone asking you it's that it's
a shared secret that only thepeople that it's securing that
secret know, and then it can beused to, to to to unlock, right,
whatever you need to unlock. Andin this case, the this, that

(03:03:26):
safe war is acting as that, youknow, multi factor that are you
actually you? It's like, soyeah, but first things first, if
you don't have multi factorauthentication on in your
organization by default forabsolutely everything, then you
should be looking into doingthat first, because that's

(03:03:49):
another thing. Is that we'retalking about really social
engineering schemes andeverything, but then people just
don't have their multi factorcodes on, on, on, on their
phones. So you're basically the,you know, hackers and the bad
actors. They're going to try tofind the easiest path for
getting, you know, if so, yeah,just start there. That was that

(03:04:15):
solves like 90% plus of the ofthe phishing attacks.

Is there any freight tech that
doesn't exist that you wishexisted? Wow.

I I think maybe all the integration
landscape, in the in the freighttech world is it's kind of all
over the place. So I think somesort of standardization of what
we all think a load is what,what, what kind of events are

(03:04:55):
relevant to to a load or or so,I think, some sort of, I don't
know if it's a software itself,some sort of agreement or
standardization on How we'regoing to communicate these
systems between systems, Edi wasan attempt to to achieve that,

(03:05:18):
and I think it is still beingused be in part, because of
that, because it was somesomewhat successful in in, you
know, this, creating a basestandard that then everyone need
to derail from that standard,and ended up doing like, each
EDI its only world. But withAPI's, for example, it's

(03:05:38):
happening that every API isdifferent, and you need to, you
have all these point to pointintegrations, and there's no,
yeah, there's no standard, and Ithink there's it generates a lot
of waste for a lot oforganizations, having to
maintain software that is just apipe to put data from A to B,

(03:06:00):
right? So that, I would say,Yeah, another time, even for
tech vendor, even for vendors,it's like, it's not valuable
work. It's just something thatyou need to do in order to get
data, and then you start, youknow, adding value with your
product.

Now, last few questions here for a
potential agent that's thinkingabout making the switch, is
there anything that they need todo on the tech side of things,
on their end of things? Betterprepare them for making the jump
to, you know, maybe, hopefullySBI, but maybe another company.
Is there any, I guess, maybestandardization of what you

(03:06:44):
would recommend for an agent toget ready to make a switch?

I think, I think asking the questions, to
to the to the agent that workthat that they're gonna they're
evaluating about what's theirtech stack, but no, no, not as
listing the vendors that theyuse, because that you could have
a really good list of vendors,but not have them working

(03:07:10):
together. Well, right? So it'sthe okay, can, can this network
give me all fulfill all the usecases that I need to fulfill?
For example, we offer we pushdata to shippers. Sometimes they
need it as a CSV file with avery specific format. Sometimes

(03:07:31):
they need to be IPI, sometimesthey need to be EDI, sometimes
they need it as they come.
Sometimes they need it in aschedule, right? So if you have
shippers that are requiring thistype of technology, then you
need to ask very clearly at thebeginning, hey, can you push
data to my shippers in the waythey need it? How long it takes
for you to complete the newintegration if, if a new shipper

(03:07:51):
needs it. For example, can youautomatically quote because I
have a shipper that asked me torespond to a quote within a
minute? Can you do that like andsame for you know what? Carrier
fraud, carrier vetting andcompliance is like asking the
questions, you know, but tryingto get to the proper depth of

(03:08:14):
the question. It's like, Oh, doyou use one question could be
Oh, do you use highway? Or doyou use RMS, or do you use my
care packets? That's one way ofasking another. Another way of
asking is like, how do youhandle with a carrier trying to
do this, how would you preventthis from happening, or how do

(03:08:34):
you use those tools in order toprotect me or protect my
business? And I think, trying tofind the depth in the questions
beyond, oh, we use this vendor,okay, but how you use it? Why
you use it? Why that one or notthe other one? Like trying to
get a bit more deep into, intothe into the ask, into the

(03:08:56):
asking.

Is there any actually one more
quick question that just poppedin my head? AI agents, not
necessarily like the call ones,but the the ones that are
promising, you know to fix, youknow, be your internal marketing
department, or be your internalsales department. Do you see the
rise of sort of AGI agents thatyou know you have a little you

(03:09:23):
know, minions that are doing allof your work for you,

to be honest, like from, from what I've been
seeing so far, I think we're farfrom it still. Whenever I try
to, I mean, I use coding toolthat has some sort of agent in

(03:09:48):
it, and it also has, like anautocomplete feature. I end up
using the autocomplete more thanthe agent, because a lot of
times the agent is just going togo in a loop of trying to solve
a problem, but in a very kindof, like, naive way. And maybe

(03:10:09):
it's not understood for certaintasks. Yeah, I can see it
working for certain tasks, but Idon't see it happening at the
level that is being advertised.
Of, oh, now you're going to havethese digital workforce that is
going to just do all of yourcalls for you, and it's going to
give you all, you know, allthese benefits. And I have yet
to see something that shows methat that's possible, and that's

(03:10:31):
and also, one aspect that we, Iwas talking with my team
yesterday, is what you get, youknow, when you're in when you're
doing something by yourself,like, if I'm trying to solve a
problem and I don't know how todo it, then maybe I Google,
maybe I use AI or whatever, ButI'm still using my brain to

(03:10:51):
solve the problem. Once I solveit, I learn something, right?
Same with human interaction,maybe some employee making a
mistake also reveals that thereis a process that needs to be
improved, right? So then you canso I think error, and it's part

(03:11:13):
of life, and it's also part oflearning, and I think we are
entering to this notion of weare going to have these agents
doing all the work for you. Butthen I. After you see the work
done, have you learned somethingfrom that process? So I see one
of the possibilities is that ourlearning curve, it goes up, but

(03:11:38):
then now we are just delegatingall this resolution to these
automations, but we don't knowhow they work, because nobody
knows what an AI agent isthinking, and nobody is even if
we could, no one is going backand say, Oh, how did you reach
this conclusion? Was itaccurate? Was it not? What can I

(03:12:01):
learn from the process ofreaching the conclusion? So I am
a believer that that process ofreaching a conclusion is really
valuable, and learning fromthese processes, learning from
mistakes, is valuable. And Ithink sometimes the promotion of
these type of tools forget thatpart, and they're just too

(03:12:25):
focused on the solution, insteadof trying to understand how we
get to a solution, how theproblem works, why the problem
even exists. Could we definethis problem out of scope so we
don't even have to solve itbecause it doesn't exist
anymore? You know, the trying tofind more depth, I think, I

(03:12:46):
think comes down to depth. Ithink a lot of these tools are
being promoted with not enoughdepth in mind, just very
tactically, and we're notthinking about, you know, maybe
you needed to, maybe you neededto walk the path. Make a little
mistake that is, as long as itdoesn't destroy you, right? You

(03:13:10):
needed to walk the path, makethat mistake, learn from it,
improve and keep going and andyou can still do that while
you're using AI agent, but ifyou just delegate everything to
and then you don't think aboutit anymore, then we're becoming
kind of like thinking lazy,right? Like we are becoming lazy

(03:13:31):
at thinking. And I personallydon't like that.

I completely agree, and I echo
that statement, because I on oneside of the coin. I will say
that you know these even likegroks deep research tool. I love
it, but I use that inside ofchat GPT in order to help me
come up with an interview flow.
And it'll I did it for thisinterview. For example, I took

(03:13:58):
our previous episode, I took thetranscript. I said, Give me a
landscape of, you know, thecurrent freight trends and
freight tech trends andtechnology and things that are
on the market. Analyze thetranscript and then come up with
an interview flow based on that.
And I would say probably 60% ofthe questions were pretty good.

(03:14:18):
But if I didn't do the activelistening to our previous
episode and also to otherepisodes you've been on, I
wouldn't have been able to, Ithink, craft a better interview
for the sake of thisconversation. And so it's it. I
don't know that that's somethingthat you can replace. Is that

(03:14:41):
active learning of by doing it,you have to still do the thing.
And, you know, maybe there'ssome ways where you can automate
the boring stuff, but there'sstill, you know, a creative
aspect that you create, aproblem solving and learning
that I think is still needs tobe prioritized.

Yeah, and in this case, what the process
you're describing you weredriving the process. You are not
delegating to an agent that wasdriving the process, an AI agent
that would drive the process.
You were driving the process youwere using a tool to categorize,
to give you, you know, somehelp, but you were in the in the
driving role, and I think that'simportant and and also it's

(03:15:19):
like, it's fun to be a human,and it's fun to connect with
humans. Big fan of humans,

don't tell the AI that

it already knows. Probably that's a topic
for another, another podcast.
But like, then there is thataspect of like, do you want to
be working with an AI agent, oryou want to, you know, are we
working for? What are we workingfor? Humans? Are working for
ourselves, for human species,for that's more philosophical,
maybe, but that comes into playtoo, when we're talking about,

(03:15:56):
you know, replacing people, it'slike,

I don't know, I want to do more of
the things that I like doing andless of that. And I think that
that's, you know, sort of thecommon complaint I hear with AI
and automation is like it'staking away, or some people feel
as if it's taking away from thethings that we want to do more
of instead of the things that wedon't want to do more of, which
is, like, I don't know, cleanthe bathroom, or, you know, fold

(03:16:24):
your clothes. Like nobody wantsto do that. But, you know, AI is
not fixing that yet, and that'swhat we want. To fix. We don't
want it to take away the thingsyou know that do make us human,
creative problem solving, youknow, creative adventures,
things like that, talking topeople, developing relationships
with people. I think all ofthose things are really

(03:16:44):
important. You kind of hit thenail on the head for the rest of
you know, I guess, say 2025, andbeyond. Are there any you know,
new tech solutions that you guysare working on, or integrations
that you could share with us, oror things you're thinking about
that you think the audienceshould know

we're working continue improving on, on the
capacity, the capacity toolsthat we have we know that the
you know market still somehowlose on that sense. But we know
when being prepared for for fordifferent market conditions, as
as they show up. So adding moresources of capacity to our

(03:17:24):
capacity hub tool, continueadding on, you know, more data
into our risk management tools.
Also, we're adding these morefeatures on the AI email, you
know, creating loads from emailsand and these categorizing email
requests, working also onautomation of bidding to the

(03:17:48):
shipper side so and, and also alot of work on on the back
office, because we, we need to,we need to provide, you know,
best service in back office,because our agents, we work a

(03:18:10):
bit differently than maybe otherother agent models, where agents
just do the operation, theycomplete the load, and then we
take over the entire AR and APcycle, right? So in order for
that to be effective, we need tohave a high level of automation,
high level of efficiency on theback office. So a lot of work on

(03:18:33):
2025 is also going to go intocontinuing the already, already
highly automated back office isgoing to continue being more
automated and providing ourstaff with tools to, yeah, maybe
to reduce some of their dataentry and so they can focus on,
on being more analytical, on on,on the audit and these things.

(03:18:57):
So, so yeah, that's those sortof things we're working on.

Lot of work you guys are got ahead of
you for this year and beyond,but I'm sure you know, a lot of
the agents are extremelythankful for the investments
that you guys continue to makeinto the platform and the
program itself as a where canfolks find you, follow more of
your work, maybe connect withyou at a future conference.
Yeah.

So my LinkedIn, I am Peralta. You can
find me there. My email is EPeralta at SPI three, pl.com,
you can email me and I'll try toreply as soon as you can. Yes,
no, I don't use email bots, soif I take time, it's because I'm
actually responding. And if yousee me at any conference,

(03:19:49):
generally, I go to Tia andcapital ideas and technovations
and maybe a few other more. Idon't have anything planned as
of now for for conferences. Wehave our annual Asian conference
this week. Yeah, exactly. It'sgonna be fun, but yeah, if you

(03:20:13):
see me at any conference, justYeah, would love to connect.

Well, perfect. This was a great
discussion. Hopefully people youknow like this one just as much,
hopefully more than than theprevious episode that we did
together. But I'll be sure toadd all those links into the
show notes. Just make it easyfor folks. But as a this, this
is great. Thank you so much foryour perspective insight.

Thank you very much Nate for having me
absolutely

thanks for tuning in to another episode
of everything is logistics,where we talk all things supply
chain for the thinkers infreight, if you like this
episode, there's plenty morewhere that came from. Be sure to
follow or subscribe on yourfavorite podcast app so you
never miss a conversation. Theshow is also available in video
format over on YouTube, just bysearching everything as
logistics. And if you're workingin freight logistics or supply

(03:21:01):
chain marketing, check out mycompany, digital dispatch. We
help you build smarter websitesand marketing systems that
actually drive results, not justvanity metrics. Additionally, if
you're trying to find the rightfreight tech tools or partners
without getting buried inbuzzwords, head on over to
cargorex.io where we're buildingthe largest database of
logistics services andsolutions. All the links you

(03:21:24):
need are in the show notes. I'llcatch you in the next episode,
in go jags. You. You

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