January 14, 2025 • 27 mins
🎧 Episode 151: From Stage Fright to Spotlight with Linda Ugelow (Part 1)
In this episode, we dive deep with Linda Ugelow, presence and performance coach, into her remarkable journey from experiencing debilitating stage fright to helping others find their authentic voice and presence. From her background as a professional dancer to becoming an expert in transforming visibility fears, Linda shares insights that bridge somatic psychology with practical application.
We explore:
- The journey from performer to presence coach
- Understanding the deep roots of visibility fears
- The powerful connection between body wisdom and authentic presence
- How childhood experiences shape our relationship with being seen
- The transformation from managing anxiety to eliminating it
- The role of movement and somatic awareness in building confidence
- Creating authentic presence on camera and stage
- The importance of positive reflection in building confidence
🔑 Key takeaways:
- Fear of visibility often stems from past experiences that need to be identified and cleared
- Traditional anxiety management techniques may not address the root cause
- Authentic movement and body awareness can transform our relationship with being seen
- True performance power comes from removing fear rather than managing it
- Building presence is about practice and creating new automatic responses
- Positive reflection and speaking life into others can transform relationships and confidence
💡 Quotes to remember:
"It is a gift to receive attention. Most people experience it as a scary thing because they are expecting judgment." - Linda Ugelow
"Children who are led to feel great about themselves, act out greatness." - Howard Glasser (quoted by Linda)
🌟 Featured Insights:
- The importance of understanding the root causes of speaking anxiety
- How past trauma creates barriers to authentic presence
- The role of non-judgmental witnesses in building confidence
- The power of positive reflection in building authentic presence
📚 Resources:
- Get Linda's book: "Delight in the Limelight: Overcome Your Fear of Being Seen and Step Into Your True Performance Power": https://www.amazon.com/Delight-Limelight-Overcome-Realize-Dreams/dp/1989603947
- Learn more about Linda's Comfy on Camera class and the Delight in the Limelight Accelerator: https://lindaugelow.com/
A rising tide raises all ships, and I invite you along on this journey to Evoke Greatness!
Check out my website: www.evokegreatness.com
Follow me on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonnie-linebarger-899b9a52/
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https://www.tiktok.com/@evoke.greatness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:57):
Welcome back to another episodeof Evoke Greatness.
Today, I'm thrilled tointroduce you to a remarkable
woman who's helped thousandstransform their relationship
with visibility and publicspeaking.
Linda Ugalo is a presence andperformance coach who knows
firsthand the paralyzing grip ofstage fright.
A former professional dancerwho once struggled with
debilitating performance anxiety, linda has turned her personal
(02:19):
journey into a powerfulmethodology that's liberating
professionals, entrepreneurs andleaders from their fear of
being seen as the author ofDelight in the Limelight.
Overcome your Fear of beingSeen and Step Into your True
Performance Power.
Linda combines her backgroundin somatic psychology,
expressive arts and mindfulnessto help clients move from
self-doubt to radiant confidence.
(02:40):
Her unique approach has beenfeatured in Psychology Today,
authority Magazine and numerousleadership forums.
Today, we'll deep dive intoLinda's revolutionary techniques
for conquering visibility fears, explore the surprising
connection between body wisdomand authentic presence, and
discover how to tap into whatshe calls our natural
performance power.
Linda, I'm so glad to have youon.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I'm excited to be here and I'm excited about this
introduction you gave me.
It's like whoa.
I like the way you said.
All of that, then I'm doing myjob you are Well.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I would love I always like to kind of go into a
little bit of a backstory andyour journey from experiencing
stage fright as a dancer tobecoming a presence coach is.
It's fascinating when we thinkabout those fears that come up
in our body when we're doingsomething that is terrifying and
can be paralyzing.
I would love for you to share alittle bit about your journey
and how you realized your ownstruggles could actually become
(03:33):
a gift to other people.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Well, I have to admit that it took me a long time to
get from that place of figuringout some things for myself to
helping other people.
But I was a performer with awomen's world music group, for
now it's been was 40 years whenI noticed that, even though I
love to dance, it was all I everwanted to do and I was their
(03:55):
principal dancer.
I noticed that I was veryself-conscious and so I'd get
out there, but there was part ofme inside that was cringing or
tight and you know like oh, andalways, you know, wondering what
other people thought.
And during that time I think itwas in my early thirties I came
across a process of dancetherapy that's called authentic
(04:21):
movement.
It's where you have your eyesclosed and you are just
listening for the impulses inyour body to move and you allow
whatever wants to come out tocome out.
Your eyes are closed andthere's a witness, or there are
many witnesses, and they'reholding nonjudgmental space.
Well, it's one thing to thinkokay, they're not judging me but
it's another experience toreally believe that and feel
(04:44):
safe.
So this was a process that overtime and I think so I studied
this, I did my master's degreeon this.
I taught it for seven years,doing it maybe four times a week
with groups.
So over time I realized I gotto this place where I felt
completely free from thisprocess of being seen when I
(05:08):
move.
So then when I noticed, when Iwas on stage I felt a hundred
percent at home.
It was like I was connectedwith myself because I was so
used to closing my eyes andconnecting on a physical level
and allowing myself to be seen.
I could easily bring that tothe stage and I completely let
(05:30):
go of any kind of concern ofwhat other people think and I
was completely just in theexperience of it and allowing
myself to go as deep as I can sothat people can have the best
experience.
And this translated to like weperformed in India and Morocco
(05:51):
and Bulgaria and all threeplaces.
We would at some point havelike national TV on us and
there'd be like five or sevenhuge camera guys going around
with these honking cameras and Iwas aware of it but it did not
faze me at all.
So that was the first kind oflike step.
But then I do have to say andadmit that even though I felt
(06:15):
comfortable moving on stage andI had an intermediate experience
around singing on stage.
I hated, hated having to speakfrom the stage, having to
introduce a song.
Just put me.
It tied me up in knots and justknowing I was going to have to
introduce a song, let's say,four songs later, I would be
(06:38):
messing up my notes.
I was a bass player and I wouldmess up on the bass and I just
like keep losing my focusbecause I was thinking, oh my
God, I'm going to have to dothat soon.
It's coming up, it's coming upand I just like build myself up
into anxiety.
So it wasn't something that Ifelt like I needed to really
(06:59):
address because I thought, okay,I'm just going to white knuckle
through it, it goes by quickly,no one's going to really care.
But in 2015, when I became anonline coach and I had to put
myself out there, that's whenthe speaking anxiety really came
up for me.
Because, you know, in order toI don't know how many people
(07:22):
listening are self-employed, butin this online world that we
live in now, if you want peopleto learn about you and follow
you and hire you or buy from you, showing up and speaking
directly to your audience is ahuge advantage.
I knew this and I tried it.
(07:44):
I tried going out on a appcalled Periscope.
It was the very first livestream app.
All the marketing gurus saidyou got to get on daily if you
want to build your following.
And I thought, okay, I'm goingto do this, even though I'm
terrified and I figured you knowdoing it every day, I'll get
over it in a few weeks.
In the meantime, I'll do deepbreathing and meditation and
(08:13):
affirmations and power poses.
I'll do all these tools youknow reframe the fear as
excitement and everything elsethat I could find online.
After 10 weeks it's day 75.
I'm about to press broadcastand I'm noticing that my heart
is racing still and I'm thinkingwhy is this still happening?
(08:33):
Why am I still afraid?
I mean, I'd been managing it.
I had gotten into a routine soI forgot that I was managing it.
But all of a sudden it's likewhy am I still managing this?
I just want to be rid of it andI decided that day I was going
to get rid of my speakinganxiety.
So, as you mentioned, I have amaster's degree in expressive
(08:54):
arts therapy and a background inmovement studies, movement
therapy, psychology.
I made a long list of all thetechniques that I had gathered
that I still knew how to do on asheet of paper.
I looked at it and I said thisis going to work.
I know this is going to work.
And then I had the thought,before I get rid of it, what is
(09:18):
this fear of speaking?
So I closed my eyes to connectwith it and I asked if the fear
could talk, what would it say?
And what came back was you'regoing to be attacked?
And suddenly I remembered mysisters attacking me, my two
older sisters.
Every time my mom put me on apedestal, saying why can't you
(09:40):
girls be more like Linda?
She's the only good one in thefamily.
Of course they hated that.
As soon as mom the family, ofcourse they hated that.
As soon as mom went in the nextroom, they attacked me.
They'd kick me in the shins,hold me on the ground and
torture, tickle me.
They'd say shut up, stupid.
And then all of a comfortablebeing the center of attention,
(10:01):
even though I worked it outthrough my dance.
But there was part of me thatremembered it was dangerous to
be the center of attention.
And you know, at this point Iwas really good friends with my
sisters.
We had, you know, passed thatstage decades earlier and I
thought, well, is this real?
Is this still true for me?
Do I believe that if I, if Ishine, if I'm, you know, lifted
(10:24):
up, if people look at me, thatmy sisters won't like me?
And it felt true.
Still, I couldn't believe it.
I could feel that it was stillresonating with me, I was still
hanging onto it and then Ithought, okay, I've got stuff
from my past that need to, thatneeds to be addressed and
cleared away.
What else is there?
And then I thought of times Iwas bullied or that I had a mean
(10:47):
teacher that didn't get me andI felt put in the spotlight and
made to feel uncomfortable, andsaw other kids get laughed at
when they didn't know theanswers to things.
Traumas from earlier on in mylife, I realized, had created
this ball or a wall of anxietythat had led me to believe it's
(11:14):
not safe to speak.
That's when?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
when I think back to what you just said, which is
when you asked yourself if fearcould talk.
What would it if fear couldspeak?
What would it say If go backlisteners a minute and a half,
two minutes, and listen to whatLinda just said?
You addressed full on what thatfear was, and then you
(11:40):
revisited all those times that afear was deposited into your
mind.
I like that word deposited.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yes, it was, and I think it happens.
I think because things aregoing to happen all the time in
our lives, but sometimes we haveresources for it and sometimes
we don't.
Sometimes we have a parent thatwe can go mom or dad.
This happened and then they'rethere to help you.
(12:09):
In my case, it didn't evenoccur to me to.
I mean, mom was part of theproblem, right, she was the one
who was doing this and she has.
I always like to say she neverhad a reflective bone in her
body.
It just was how she was.
I mean I, she was.
I loved mom, she was a realcharacter, but she had some
flaws in her parenting toolboxand she didn't realize that she
(12:34):
was creating this animosity inher kids with all this
comparison, and I think a lot ofparents can get into doing that
.
So we are left to withoutresources, without that parent
or teacher or mentor.
Or really's the story we tellourselves about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Just going back to that, two things came to mind,
One of which is if you don'ttake the time to unpack what the
fear is, and then where thosedeposits of fear were put into
your mind or your life, you'llreally struggle to get past them
.
So I think it's the courage tostop and actually take the time
to unpack that.
Then the other thing that cameto mind for me was I know that
(13:34):
there are a lot of womenlistening.
I know there are a lot ofentrepreneurial keynote speaking
women who still have some ofthose fears inside.
There's also a lot of parentslistening.
And so, having the sense ofself-awareness around, being
mindful of what we say to ourkids and the way in which we say
it I mean there were about fivegold nuggets that came out of
(13:55):
those few minutes but I reallythink having the self-awareness
to say what are the words andthe language that we're using
with our kids.
And I always tell my two boys,I always tell them, I always
tell my two boys, I always tellthem speak life, the little
things you say.
Sometimes they're digs to eachother and they're three and a
(14:17):
half years apart and they'reteenage boys and they go back
and forth.
I'm like no, no, no, no.
Speak life.
You have to speak life intopeople, because we forget how
powerful our words are.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
So what does that mean?
When you say that to them, howdo they take it?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Well, I mean again, they're teenage boys and so it's
like they'll be razzing eachother for some reason.
And it's one thing to raz eachother, it's another thing.
When I recognize, it's thelittle things that I can see
maybe have hurt the other person, and that's when I'm trying to
tell them you have the power inyour words to build someone up
(14:54):
or tear someone down.
That's not just in the house,that's as you grow up and become
an adult.
It's the things you say toyourself.
And so when you're speaking life, you're not doing something
that is damaging somebody, evenwhen you're angry, even when
you're somebody, even whenyou're angry, even when you're
frustrated, even if you don'tmean for them to take it that
(15:15):
way.
We just have to be conscious ofour words and our language.
And I'm not being Pollyanna byany stretch.
Right, I've got teenage boys.
It's a very worldly world welive in, but I also want them to
be conscious of the fact thatthey should be speaking life
into one another, to beconscious of the fact that they
should be speaking life into oneanother.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, yes, I love the language of that.
I haven't heard that kind ofturn of phrase.
There's a author named HowardGlasser who wrote a book I came
across it first Transforming theDifficult Child.
He has something called thenurtured heart approach and he
has had a huge impact on thework that I do in that he says
that children who are led tofeel great about themselves act
(15:59):
out greatness.
And he was one of the peoplethat modeled for me how to
specifically give positivereflections that point to what
kids are already doing great,what is really strong, what we
like and appreciate about them.
(16:20):
And I started to use this whenmy daughter was young and if my
daughter's listening to this,she wasn't the difficult child.
I think she was, but no, shewas not.
But it still made for anamazing relationship that we
developed.
And then I realized from beforewhen we can replace them with
the newer, current comments fromour peers and colleagues that
(16:55):
are saying, wow, I love the wayyou smiled at the end of that
video or I love that turn ofphrase, or you engender trust
Like if I was in, if I wascoming to you for this.
I would feel completely at ease, you know.
(17:15):
And so when we feel, when wereceive these kinds of
reflections that point out whatwe're already doing, that's
wonderful and that's strong.
I feel that it allows, itexpands our, our sense of self
and we we lean into it more andwe have this kind of culture.
I think that's based on thiseducation which I would love to
see remade that is alwayspointing to what we're not doing
(17:35):
right.
It's the red pen and he alwayslike what are your mistakes?
And we have this whole backwardway of you know being
programmed in school that wefear mistakes because the best
thing is to never make mistakes.
Then we become adults and we'rebeing told actually it's okay
(17:56):
to make mistakes, it's more howyou handle making mistakes.
But it's like where is thatcourse in the middle that says,
okay, we're changing the rulesnow, and so we have so many
people.
The middle that says, okay,we're changing the rules now,
and so we have so many people,including myself.
I was terrified of makingmistakes.
I was a straight A student.
Of course.
I was afraid of making mistakesbecause I wouldn't have gotten
(18:23):
those grades.
I think it's a handicap that wecreate for our children and for
ourselves to have this value oflike.
That is the highest value inschool that we don't make
mistakes Whereas what I wouldlike to see is that we have more
of an environment ofexperimentation and exploration
(18:47):
and that things that don't workout is just information.
Yeah, very different way tolook at it.
It would be a completelydifferent experience, right?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right In your book Delight in the Limelight, you
talk about true performancepower.
How have you gone about thediscovery of this power in an
unexpected way, and what havethe transformations taught you?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
this power in an unexpected way, and what have
the transformations taught you?
You know, in my music group, asI mentioned, there were
introductions to songs and therewere some people in the group
who were very comfortableintroducing songs, and it would
often go on for five minutes onoccasion if they were like
really on a roll.
And so there you are, standingon stage and you're wanting, or
(19:30):
I was wanting.
We were all aware about holdingthe space.
We don't want to detract fromthe person speaking, but we also
want to stay present.
So how do you do that?
So I felt like I had many hoursof practicing just standing on
stage in front of an audience,receiving energy from the
(19:51):
audience, giving energy to theaudience, allowing the attention
to fill me up with gratitudeand love for the music, and it
just kind of like created acycle of energy, of being on the
(20:13):
stage, receiving the energy andthen giving it back.
I felt like that was a hugeeducation for me and practicum
for me to get to both bestanding on stage, not doing
anything, just like beingpresent, and I could look at in
(20:33):
the audience, I could practicelike okay, who has glasses on,
who has short hair, who has longhair, who's smiling, who is not
, what's the age, what are theages, what's the gender or
cultural mix here, and while atthe same time maintaining a
(20:54):
sense of presence.
So it was interesting thatafter I got over the fear of
speaking by clearing away thisold stuff and cleaning out the
stuff in my head that youmentioned that then there's this
possibility of applying these,I guess, skills and awarenesses
of performance and stagepresence to the experience that
(21:19):
allows you to make it intosomething that is a task, into
something that is almost a peakexperience, or many times a peak
experience, because it is agift to receive attention.
Most people experience it as ascary thing because they are
expecting judgment, but once youhave removed that fear, you can
(21:44):
receive it as the gift that itis and you can practice taking
it in In my Comfy on Cameraclass, which is part of an
upcoming program, the Delight inthe Limelight Accelerator, the
whole first week is about how tocreate presence on camera,
where you simply practiceconnecting to yourself.
(22:06):
And then another prompt is whereyou simply practice connecting
to yourself, and then anotherprompt is where you simply
practice connecting to the lensand making friends with the lens
, and then another prompt whereyou're just receiving the
attention, and then anotherwhere you're just sending that
energy out.
So we're not even likenecessarily talking about words
yet, we're just talking aboutexperience.
(22:29):
Talking about words, yet we'rejust talking about experience.
And once you the beauty ofdoing this is, once you have
that experience kind ofprogrammed in then it becomes
automatic.
That means that you start, youturn on the camera and all of a
sudden you feel grounded andconnected with yourself because
you've been practicing thatRight.
When, if, if, you're thinking,okay, I'm going to go out and
(22:51):
speak on stage, you kind of likemake your script and you
practice what you're going tosay, and then you think, oh yeah
, oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm supposedto now look at people.
What is my presence, what's myposture?
It's like you're waiting to theend to do things that you would
ultimately like to be automaticfor you of feeling grounded and
present, of feeling like opento the energy and open to
(23:14):
receiving and expressing youropen-hearted gratitude for them
and appreciation for them.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, and you can definitely tell when watching
someone on stage or even oncamera, those who feel that
their movements are different,their movements are smoother,
there's a sense of being presentbut almost like being natural
in your own body.
And the way that you'reengaging, the way you're making
eye contact or scanning or handgestures, all of that you really
(23:41):
can tell when someone and somepeople you know I think some
people can probably fake itfairly well, but either way, I
think you can tell when peoplehave that sense of comfort and
confidence around themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yes, yes, I think that's true and it's interesting
that when we do this in a groupand we witness one another,
that people, really they canfeel viscerally when somebody is
like dropped into their body,like so, for instance, when we I
ask people to connect withthemselves and narrate what
(24:16):
they're doing, so they'll closetheir eyes and they'll say, okay
, I noticed my foot is on thefloor, my elbows on the table,
I'm feeling my breath flow inand out.
It's a little tight and actuallynow I'm like dropping into my
body and all of a sudden it'slike you can feel that and even
(24:39):
though somebody isn'tconsciously aware of that
happening, let's say, you'rejust on stage, you're just on
camera, you feel it because wehave mirror neurons in ourselves
.
So we sense when someone isgrounded and we sense when
they're agitated.
And that doesn't mean now Ijust want to, I don't want to
(25:00):
pass judgment here it doesn'tmean that what you have to say
is less valuable or that can'tmake an impact.
We can make an impact even whenwe're nervous.
But question is do you want tofeel nervous all the time, and
is that going to be the mostmotivating for you to put
yourself out there, and is itgoing to be the most supportive
(25:22):
way, or impactful way of beingin our relationships.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
All right, guys, you know the routine.
This is where I hit the pausebutton.
I hope you enjoyed part one.
Make sure to check back nextweek for part two, where we talk
about setting the stage in yourown mind, before going on stage
to speak, what she hasdiscovered about the universal
fear of being seen, reclaimingyour own voice to use as an
instrument and practices sherecommends for maintaining
(25:50):
presence during challengingmoments.
I know you're going to enjoy it, so hope to see you back next
week.
Thank you so much for listeningand for being here on this
journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know.
Many need to hear this message.
(26:11):
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
contact me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
(26:38):
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:57):
Welcome back to another episodeof Evoke Greatness.
Today, I'm thrilled tointroduce you to a remarkable
woman who's helped thousandstransform their relationship
with visibility and publicspeaking.
Linda Ugalo is a presence andperformance coach who knows
firsthand the paralyzing grip ofstage fright.
A former professional dancerwho once struggled with
debilitating performance anxiety, linda has turned her personal
(02:19):
journey into a powerfulmethodology that's liberating
professionals, entrepreneurs andleaders from their fear of
being seen as the author ofDelight in the Limelight.
Overcome your Fear of beingSeen and Step Into your True
Performance Power.
Linda combines her backgroundin somatic psychology,
expressive arts and mindfulnessto help clients move from
self-doubt to radiant confidence.
(02:40):
Her unique approach has beenfeatured in Psychology Today,
authority Magazine and numerousleadership forums.
Today, we'll deep dive intoLinda's revolutionary techniques
for conquering visibility fears, explore the surprising
connection between body wisdomand authentic presence, and
discover how to tap into whatshe calls our natural
performance power.
Linda, I'm so glad to have youon.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I'm excited to be here and I'm excited about this
introduction you gave me.
It's like whoa.
I like the way you said.
All of that, then I'm doing myjob you are Well.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I would love I always like to kind of go into a
little bit of a backstory andyour journey from experiencing
stage fright as a dancer tobecoming a presence coach is.
It's fascinating when we thinkabout those fears that come up
in our body when we're doingsomething that is terrifying and
can be paralyzing.
I would love for you to share alittle bit about your journey
and how you realized your ownstruggles could actually become
(03:33):
a gift to other people.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Well, I have to admit that it took me a long time to
get from that place of figuringout some things for myself to
helping other people.
But I was a performer with awomen's world music group, for
now it's been was 40 years whenI noticed that, even though I
love to dance, it was all I everwanted to do and I was their
(03:55):
principal dancer.
I noticed that I was veryself-conscious and so I'd get
out there, but there was part ofme inside that was cringing or
tight and you know like oh, andalways, you know, wondering what
other people thought.
And during that time I think itwas in my early thirties I came
across a process of dancetherapy that's called authentic
(04:21):
movement.
It's where you have your eyesclosed and you are just
listening for the impulses inyour body to move and you allow
whatever wants to come out tocome out.
Your eyes are closed andthere's a witness, or there are
many witnesses, and they'reholding nonjudgmental space.
Well, it's one thing to thinkokay, they're not judging me but
it's another experience toreally believe that and feel
(04:44):
safe.
So this was a process that overtime and I think so I studied
this, I did my master's degreeon this.
I taught it for seven years,doing it maybe four times a week
with groups.
So over time I realized I gotto this place where I felt
completely free from thisprocess of being seen when I
(05:08):
move.
So then when I noticed, when Iwas on stage I felt a hundred
percent at home.
It was like I was connectedwith myself because I was so
used to closing my eyes andconnecting on a physical level
and allowing myself to be seen.
I could easily bring that tothe stage and I completely let
(05:30):
go of any kind of concern ofwhat other people think and I
was completely just in theexperience of it and allowing
myself to go as deep as I can sothat people can have the best
experience.
And this translated to like weperformed in India and Morocco
(05:51):
and Bulgaria and all threeplaces.
We would at some point havelike national TV on us and
there'd be like five or sevenhuge camera guys going around
with these honking cameras and Iwas aware of it but it did not
faze me at all.
So that was the first kind oflike step.
But then I do have to say andadmit that even though I felt
(06:15):
comfortable moving on stage andI had an intermediate experience
around singing on stage.
I hated, hated having to speakfrom the stage, having to
introduce a song.
Just put me.
It tied me up in knots and justknowing I was going to have to
introduce a song, let's say,four songs later, I would be
(06:38):
messing up my notes.
I was a bass player and I wouldmess up on the bass and I just
like keep losing my focusbecause I was thinking, oh my
God, I'm going to have to dothat soon.
It's coming up, it's coming upand I just like build myself up
into anxiety.
So it wasn't something that Ifelt like I needed to really
(06:59):
address because I thought, okay,I'm just going to white knuckle
through it, it goes by quickly,no one's going to really care.
But in 2015, when I became anonline coach and I had to put
myself out there, that's whenthe speaking anxiety really came
up for me.
Because, you know, in order toI don't know how many people
(07:22):
listening are self-employed, butin this online world that we
live in now, if you want peopleto learn about you and follow
you and hire you or buy from you, showing up and speaking
directly to your audience is ahuge advantage.
I knew this and I tried it.
(07:44):
I tried going out on a appcalled Periscope.
It was the very first livestream app.
All the marketing gurus saidyou got to get on daily if you
want to build your following.
And I thought, okay, I'm goingto do this, even though I'm
terrified and I figured you knowdoing it every day, I'll get
over it in a few weeks.
In the meantime, I'll do deepbreathing and meditation and
(08:13):
affirmations and power poses.
I'll do all these tools youknow reframe the fear as
excitement and everything elsethat I could find online.
After 10 weeks it's day 75.
I'm about to press broadcastand I'm noticing that my heart
is racing still and I'm thinkingwhy is this still happening?
(08:33):
Why am I still afraid?
I mean, I'd been managing it.
I had gotten into a routine soI forgot that I was managing it.
But all of a sudden it's likewhy am I still managing this?
I just want to be rid of it andI decided that day I was going
to get rid of my speakinganxiety.
So, as you mentioned, I have amaster's degree in expressive
(08:54):
arts therapy and a background inmovement studies, movement
therapy, psychology.
I made a long list of all thetechniques that I had gathered
that I still knew how to do on asheet of paper.
I looked at it and I said thisis going to work.
I know this is going to work.
And then I had the thought,before I get rid of it, what is
(09:18):
this fear of speaking?
So I closed my eyes to connectwith it and I asked if the fear
could talk, what would it say?
And what came back was you'regoing to be attacked?
And suddenly I remembered mysisters attacking me, my two
older sisters.
Every time my mom put me on apedestal, saying why can't you
(09:40):
girls be more like Linda?
She's the only good one in thefamily.
Of course they hated that.
As soon as mom the family, ofcourse they hated that.
As soon as mom went in the nextroom, they attacked me.
They'd kick me in the shins,hold me on the ground and
torture, tickle me.
They'd say shut up, stupid.
And then all of a comfortablebeing the center of attention,
(10:01):
even though I worked it outthrough my dance.
But there was part of me thatremembered it was dangerous to
be the center of attention.
And you know, at this point Iwas really good friends with my
sisters.
We had, you know, passed thatstage decades earlier and I
thought, well, is this real?
Is this still true for me?
Do I believe that if I, if Ishine, if I'm, you know, lifted
(10:24):
up, if people look at me, thatmy sisters won't like me?
And it felt true.
Still, I couldn't believe it.
I could feel that it was stillresonating with me, I was still
hanging onto it and then Ithought, okay, I've got stuff
from my past that need to, thatneeds to be addressed and
cleared away.
What else is there?
And then I thought of times Iwas bullied or that I had a mean
(10:47):
teacher that didn't get me andI felt put in the spotlight and
made to feel uncomfortable, andsaw other kids get laughed at
when they didn't know theanswers to things.
Traumas from earlier on in mylife, I realized, had created
this ball or a wall of anxietythat had led me to believe it's
(11:14):
not safe to speak.
That's when?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
when I think back to what you just said, which is
when you asked yourself if fearcould talk.
What would it if fear couldspeak?
What would it say If go backlisteners a minute and a half,
two minutes, and listen to whatLinda just said?
You addressed full on what thatfear was, and then you
(11:40):
revisited all those times that afear was deposited into your
mind.
I like that word deposited.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yes, it was, and I think it happens.
I think because things aregoing to happen all the time in
our lives, but sometimes we haveresources for it and sometimes
we don't.
Sometimes we have a parent thatwe can go mom or dad.
This happened and then they'rethere to help you.
(12:09):
In my case, it didn't evenoccur to me to.
I mean, mom was part of theproblem, right, she was the one
who was doing this and she has.
I always like to say she neverhad a reflective bone in her
body.
It just was how she was.
I mean I, she was.
I loved mom, she was a realcharacter, but she had some
flaws in her parenting toolboxand she didn't realize that she
(12:34):
was creating this animosity inher kids with all this
comparison, and I think a lot ofparents can get into doing that
.
So we are left to withoutresources, without that parent
or teacher or mentor.
Or really's the story we tellourselves about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Just going back to that, two things came to mind,
One of which is if you don'ttake the time to unpack what the
fear is, and then where thosedeposits of fear were put into
your mind or your life, you'llreally struggle to get past them
.
So I think it's the courage tostop and actually take the time
to unpack that.
Then the other thing that cameto mind for me was I know that
(13:34):
there are a lot of womenlistening.
I know there are a lot ofentrepreneurial keynote speaking
women who still have some ofthose fears inside.
There's also a lot of parentslistening.
And so, having the sense ofself-awareness around, being
mindful of what we say to ourkids and the way in which we say
it I mean there were about fivegold nuggets that came out of
(13:55):
those few minutes but I reallythink having the self-awareness
to say what are the words andthe language that we're using
with our kids.
And I always tell my two boys,I always tell them, I always
tell my two boys, I always tellthem speak life, the little
things you say.
Sometimes they're digs to eachother and they're three and a
(14:17):
half years apart and they'reteenage boys and they go back
and forth.
I'm like no, no, no, no.
Speak life.
You have to speak life intopeople, because we forget how
powerful our words are.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
So what does that mean?
When you say that to them, howdo they take it?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Well, I mean again, they're teenage boys and so it's
like they'll be razzing eachother for some reason.
And it's one thing to raz eachother, it's another thing.
When I recognize, it's thelittle things that I can see
maybe have hurt the other person, and that's when I'm trying to
tell them you have the power inyour words to build someone up
(14:54):
or tear someone down.
That's not just in the house,that's as you grow up and become
an adult.
It's the things you say toyourself.
And so when you're speaking life, you're not doing something
that is damaging somebody, evenwhen you're angry, even when
you're somebody, even whenyou're angry, even when you're
frustrated, even if you don'tmean for them to take it that
(15:15):
way.
We just have to be conscious ofour words and our language.
And I'm not being Pollyanna byany stretch.
Right, I've got teenage boys.
It's a very worldly world welive in, but I also want them to
be conscious of the fact thatthey should be speaking life
into one another, to beconscious of the fact that they
should be speaking life into oneanother.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, yes, I love the language of that.
I haven't heard that kind ofturn of phrase.
There's a author named HowardGlasser who wrote a book I came
across it first Transforming theDifficult Child.
He has something called thenurtured heart approach and he
has had a huge impact on thework that I do in that he says
that children who are led tofeel great about themselves act
(15:59):
out greatness.
And he was one of the peoplethat modeled for me how to
specifically give positivereflections that point to what
kids are already doing great,what is really strong, what we
like and appreciate about them.
(16:20):
And I started to use this whenmy daughter was young and if my
daughter's listening to this,she wasn't the difficult child.
I think she was, but no, shewas not.
But it still made for anamazing relationship that we
developed.
And then I realized from beforewhen we can replace them with
the newer, current comments fromour peers and colleagues that
(16:55):
are saying, wow, I love the wayyou smiled at the end of that
video or I love that turn ofphrase, or you engender trust
Like if I was in, if I wascoming to you for this.
I would feel completely at ease, you know.
(17:15):
And so when we feel, when wereceive these kinds of
reflections that point out whatwe're already doing, that's
wonderful and that's strong.
I feel that it allows, itexpands our, our sense of self
and we we lean into it more andwe have this kind of culture.
I think that's based on thiseducation which I would love to
see remade that is alwayspointing to what we're not doing
(17:35):
right.
It's the red pen and he alwayslike what are your mistakes?
And we have this whole backwardway of you know being
programmed in school that wefear mistakes because the best
thing is to never make mistakes.
Then we become adults and we'rebeing told actually it's okay
(17:56):
to make mistakes, it's more howyou handle making mistakes.
But it's like where is thatcourse in the middle that says,
okay, we're changing the rulesnow, and so we have so many
people.
The middle that says, okay,we're changing the rules now,
and so we have so many people,including myself.
I was terrified of makingmistakes.
I was a straight A student.
Of course.
I was afraid of making mistakesbecause I wouldn't have gotten
(18:23):
those grades.
I think it's a handicap that wecreate for our children and for
ourselves to have this value oflike.
That is the highest value inschool that we don't make
mistakes Whereas what I wouldlike to see is that we have more
of an environment ofexperimentation and exploration
(18:47):
and that things that don't workout is just information.
Yeah, very different way tolook at it.
It would be a completelydifferent experience, right?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right In your book Delight in the Limelight, you
talk about true performancepower.
How have you gone about thediscovery of this power in an
unexpected way, and what havethe transformations taught you?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
this power in an unexpected way, and what have
the transformations taught you?
You know, in my music group, asI mentioned, there were
introductions to songs and therewere some people in the group
who were very comfortableintroducing songs, and it would
often go on for five minutes onoccasion if they were like
really on a roll.
And so there you are, standingon stage and you're wanting, or
(19:30):
I was wanting.
We were all aware about holdingthe space.
We don't want to detract fromthe person speaking, but we also
want to stay present.
So how do you do that?
So I felt like I had many hoursof practicing just standing on
stage in front of an audience,receiving energy from the
(19:51):
audience, giving energy to theaudience, allowing the attention
to fill me up with gratitudeand love for the music, and it
just kind of like created acycle of energy, of being on the
(20:13):
stage, receiving the energy andthen giving it back.
I felt like that was a hugeeducation for me and practicum
for me to get to both bestanding on stage, not doing
anything, just like beingpresent, and I could look at in
(20:33):
the audience, I could practicelike okay, who has glasses on,
who has short hair, who has longhair, who's smiling, who is not
, what's the age, what are theages, what's the gender or
cultural mix here, and while atthe same time maintaining a
(20:54):
sense of presence.
So it was interesting thatafter I got over the fear of
speaking by clearing away thisold stuff and cleaning out the
stuff in my head that youmentioned that then there's this
possibility of applying these,I guess, skills and awarenesses
of performance and stagepresence to the experience that
(21:19):
allows you to make it intosomething that is a task, into
something that is almost a peakexperience, or many times a peak
experience, because it is agift to receive attention.
Most people experience it as ascary thing because they are
expecting judgment, but once youhave removed that fear, you can
(21:44):
receive it as the gift that itis and you can practice taking
it in In my Comfy on Cameraclass, which is part of an
upcoming program, the Delight inthe Limelight Accelerator, the
whole first week is about how tocreate presence on camera,
where you simply practiceconnecting to yourself.
(22:06):
And then another prompt is whereyou simply practice connecting
to yourself, and then anotherprompt is where you simply
practice connecting to the lensand making friends with the lens
, and then another prompt whereyou're just receiving the
attention, and then anotherwhere you're just sending that
energy out.
So we're not even likenecessarily talking about words
yet, we're just talking aboutexperience.
(22:29):
Talking about words, yet we'rejust talking about experience.
And once you the beauty ofdoing this is, once you have
that experience kind ofprogrammed in then it becomes
automatic.
That means that you start, youturn on the camera and all of a
sudden you feel grounded andconnected with yourself because
you've been practicing thatRight.
When, if, if, you're thinking,okay, I'm going to go out and
(22:51):
speak on stage, you kind of likemake your script and you
practice what you're going tosay, and then you think, oh yeah
, oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm supposedto now look at people.
What is my presence, what's myposture?
It's like you're waiting to theend to do things that you would
ultimately like to be automaticfor you of feeling grounded and
present, of feeling like opento the energy and open to
(23:14):
receiving and expressing youropen-hearted gratitude for them
and appreciation for them.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, and you can definitely tell when watching
someone on stage or even oncamera, those who feel that
their movements are different,their movements are smoother,
there's a sense of being presentbut almost like being natural
in your own body.
And the way that you'reengaging, the way you're making
eye contact or scanning or handgestures, all of that you really
(23:41):
can tell when someone and somepeople you know I think some
people can probably fake itfairly well, but either way, I
think you can tell when peoplehave that sense of comfort and
confidence around themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yes, yes, I think that's true and it's interesting
that when we do this in a groupand we witness one another,
that people, really they canfeel viscerally when somebody is
like dropped into their body,like so, for instance, when we I
ask people to connect withthemselves and narrate what
(24:16):
they're doing, so they'll closetheir eyes and they'll say, okay
, I noticed my foot is on thefloor, my elbows on the table,
I'm feeling my breath flow inand out.
It's a little tight and actuallynow I'm like dropping into my
body and all of a sudden it'slike you can feel that and even
(24:39):
though somebody isn'tconsciously aware of that
happening, let's say, you'rejust on stage, you're just on
camera, you feel it because wehave mirror neurons in ourselves
.
So we sense when someone isgrounded and we sense when
they're agitated.
And that doesn't mean now Ijust want to, I don't want to
(25:00):
pass judgment here it doesn'tmean that what you have to say
is less valuable or that can'tmake an impact.
We can make an impact even whenwe're nervous.
But question is do you want tofeel nervous all the time, and
is that going to be the mostmotivating for you to put
yourself out there, and is itgoing to be the most supportive
(25:22):
way, or impactful way of beingin our relationships.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
All right, guys, you know the routine.
This is where I hit the pausebutton.
I hope you enjoyed part one.
Make sure to check back nextweek for part two, where we talk
about setting the stage in yourown mind, before going on stage
to speak, what she hasdiscovered about the universal
fear of being seen, reclaimingyour own voice to use as an
instrument and practices sherecommends for maintaining
(25:50):
presence during challengingmoments.
I know you're going to enjoy it, so hope to see you back next
week.
Thank you so much for listeningand for being here on this
journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know.
Many need to hear this message.
(26:11):
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
contact me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
(26:38):
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
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