May 27, 2025 • 27 mins
🎧 Episode 165: Smart Power and Authentic Leadership with Dr. Sylvia Rhode-Liebenau
In Part 1 of this insightful episode, we explore the transformative concept of "Smart Power" with Dr. Sylvia Rhode-Liebenau, founder of the Smart Power Method and leadership expert with over 30 years of experience. From her academic background in international relations to her 17-year tenure at the European Investment Bank, Sylvia brings a unique perspective that integrates artistic expression with executive coaching for organizations like UNHCR, European Central Bank, and Amazon.
We dive deep into:
- Redefining power beyond force and control
- The three pillars of Smart Power: purpose, collaboration, and authenticity
- Why showing emotions at work makes leaders more effective, not less
- The concept of "grounded leadership" in volatile times
- How to express emotions professionally without "polluting" the workplace environment
- The connection between physical presence and leadership resilience
- Lessons from Viktor Frankl on purpose-driven leadership during chaos
🔑 Key takeaways:
- True power comes from inspiring others toward a shared purpose, not from controlling them
- Collaboration creates exponential results - "one plus one equals eleven"
- Authenticity requires showing up as your healthy self, not your unfiltered self
- Leaders who hide their emotions lose trust and connection with their teams
- "Speak out but don't act out" - use emotions as signals, not weapons
- Physical presence and breath awareness enhance emotional and mental stability
- Purpose provides resilience during unprecedented change and complexity
💡 Quotes to remember:
"When we are grounded in a purpose, something that is really important to us, then we are more resilient and therefore also more powerful."
"Speak out but don't act out. You can use some of your emotion to express that, but you will not pollute the environment with your unfiltered expression."
"Authenticity doesn't mean I always say everything that just comes or I'm my unfiltered self... It means to show up fully, to be really present, to be open, but in the healthy way of being myself."
https://www.smartpowermethod.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sylvia-rohde-liebenau-phd-b51b0328/
A rising tide raises all ships, and I invite you along on this journey to Evoke Greatness!
Check out my website: www.evokegreatness.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:58):
Welcome back to another episodeof Evoke Greatness, where we
uncover the wisdom of remarkableindividuals making a genuine
impact in our world.
Today, we're joined by DrSylvia Rowe-Libanau, founder of
the Smart Power Method and aleadership expert with over 30
years of experience transforminghow leaders create impact with
ease.
With a PhD in internationalrelations and a background
(02:20):
spanning from EuropeanInvestment Bank to her current
work coaching C-suite executivesat organizations like UNHCR,
european Central Bank and Amazon, sylvia brings a uniquely
powerful perspective.
What truly sets her apart ishow she integrates her artistic
talents as a painter, dancer andsinger into her leadership
(02:41):
approach, giving clients anembodied understanding of
presence and authenticity.
Her upcoming book who's inCharge promises to reveal
pathways to resilience andmeaningful leadership.
Sylvia, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Hello Sunny.
It's such a pleasure to speakto you today.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, I always like to kick it off in learning a
little bit more about your story.
What was it?
You come from a background ofbanking and have woven in so
much of this artistic componentof life to lead you.
What led you to the currentpath you're on today?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, the path led me to the path.
So banking is probablysomething that if you had asked
me when I was in my 20s Iwouldn't have dreamt of going
into, because I studiedpolitical science and I was
actually like torn betweenpsychology and political science
.
So I ended up doing politicalscience and law and focused on
international relations, both mymaster's and the PhD, and I
(03:39):
always studied, like,psychological aspects of
politics and was very fascinatedfascinated about power, about
like is is power really what wethink it is, or is it also
something different?
And so I studied power in mymaster's, which was about the un
disarmament conference, andthen in my phd, which was about
(04:02):
the like of NGOs andtransnational collaboration on
government politics and howactually the non-government
actors had an influence on theEast-West conflict and how it
ended, and so that taught me alot.
But then I decided not tocontinue in academia but to go
(04:27):
into the practical world, whichwas a very good decision,
because as soon as I had landedthere I realized that rolling up
my sleeves and doing somethingpractical made me much more
happy than sitting behind mydesk and studying things and
debating academic wisdoms.
And so my first job was at theEuropean Commission dealing with
(04:49):
development cooperation.
And so there I was fascinatedabout like, why does an
organization change and anotherdoes not change, when we were
helping institutions to reform,and also, how did the
institution in which I wasworking, the European Commission
itself, how did that function?
Why did people behave the waythey behaved and what worked and
(05:12):
what kind of leadership styleworked?
And what kind of leadershipstyle worked?
A bit less.
And one of the things thatfascinated me very early on was
this know, these silos inorganizations, how they
sometimes inhibit good outcomes,where I was told very early on,
you shouldn't give informationto them because then they will
(05:34):
take over and say, well, but wehave to talk to them because
actually by talking to eachother and by sharing information
we will have better outcomestogether.
So that was early insights andwell, that was in the
institution.
And then I went to consulting,actually because I had the
feeling that consultantssometimes did the more juicy
(05:55):
work compared to theadministrators in the
institution when it came tothese development cooperation
programs.
And from there then I ended upfinally in banking, but it was
not as a banker but inorganization development and
coaching, which I had studiedwhen I was in consulting.
So I worked for 17 years forthe European Investment Bank
(06:20):
dealing with career management,talent management, organization
health, where I was leading thatfunction, creating that
function for a few years, andthen finally with leadership
development.
And then, having dealt withleadership development in that
fantastic institution which I'mworking for, at a certain stage
(06:43):
I felt like now I want to domore of that beyond this
institution.
So that's when I left in, likethree years ago, when I left the
European Investment Bank towork as a leadership coach and
facilitator for many differentorganizations.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Sounds like we're very aligned.
In early in my career I wascommitted, I was all in on
psychology.
I was so fascinated by whatmade people do and think and
behave in the manner in whichthey did.
I didn't end up going intopsychology, I ended up going
into nursing, but I still thinkthat was a thread that was woven
through my career and I thinktoday, farther in my career, I
(07:26):
probably embrace that much moreof really loving the
psychological aspect behind whatpeople take, and so I think
that's a similar threadthroughout stories.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Isn't that also interesting?
Because nursing is also a verypsychological profession.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
My understanding of this psychology.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's right.
I never thought about that butI thought, oh man, I can see
today looking back, but I think,as I thought, shifting out of
psychology and focusing onnursing, I kind of felt like I
was giving that up or leavingthat behind.
It really partnered with me allthrough my career.
You had a LinkedIn post andthis goes to really talking
(08:12):
about your book and your conceptof this smart power LinkedIn
post and you distinguish thesedifferent kinds of power
destructive power, choose powerand what you call a smarter kind
of power.
I would love for you to justkind of share a little bit more
about what makes up each ofthose.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So let me start with how I got to this, talking about
power.
It was really seeing that whatpeople believe to be power is
sometimes not that powerful.
So in the corporate world, forinstance, when people believe
like pushing and having controlover people or things, that
(08:54):
makes them powerful.
But then you see that usingthat kind of power often makes
people end up achieving lessthan they could if they had a
different approach.
So that made me thought ah,maybe power is actually
something different, and so myproposition is let's rethink
(09:15):
power so that actually we canachieve more, that we are more
successful, and let's questionwhether power equals force and
control is really the rightanswer, or whether there is
maybe another approach that wecould use.
And what I found is thatleaders who use a more
(09:38):
purposeful approach to say, notonly I'm in control, but hey,
people, there is something thatwe can achieve together and
that's inspiring, so let's gothere together.
They have more followership andtherefore they're more
effective.
Then the aspect ofcollaboration to privilege, like
(10:00):
the one plus one is 11 kind ofidea.
So it's not that by controllingand being on top that I will
achieve more, but to be open tosay, well, I want to go there.
What do you think?
What do you think about it?
Can we maybe merge ourstrategies and merge our
(10:21):
resources and achieve moretogether so that actually makes
me more powerful?
And merge our resources andachieve more together?
So that actually makes me morepowerful?
It might look as though I waslosing power because I'm giving
up some control or I'm openingmyself up to ideas from other
people, but in the end I achievemore.
That's simply what we can findwhen we compare the leadership
(10:43):
styles of people.
And then it's also more on thepersonal side.
If you see leaders that areafraid of showing emotions,
they're afraid of connecting toothers personally, they tend to
be less powerful.
I've seen it very often Someonesays, yes, but I can't show my
(11:08):
personality at work, becausework is work and personal life
is personal life, but thenpeople don't trust them that
much because they can't see whothey really are.
And for instance, also when youare in a conflict situation
maybe a difficult conversationand you are in a conflict
situation, maybe a difficultconversation and you hide behind
a wall of I'm not showinganything about my feelings or
(11:32):
I'm hiding behind rules ratherthan being personal.
That's a less powerfulconversation than being
authentically there.
So the third aspect of smarterpower is just to summarize it is
to be authentic, so it'spurposeful, it is about
collaboration and there are morefacets to that.
(11:53):
And then there's the authenticpersonal power.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
It's so interesting that you say that in.
I think sometimes, especiallyearly in one's career, power is
maybe more of a perception thana lived experience.
Right, because you've not gonethrough that.
Back in the early days, in myvery first role of leadership, I
(12:21):
had an approach that was notthe right approach.
My perception was power wasthis bold thing that you grab a
hold of?
You are the leader, you are theone leading.
I shake my head now like what afool I was.
But a lot of lessons came outof it, and so that's why I
(12:41):
wouldn't change it, because Itook and I learned and I grew so
much as a result of it.
What I found was that was myperception, but I had no lived
experience.
And so once I started getting alived experience, I fell down
and I made some mistakes and Irealized that I can't lead a
team with I, and so, as Ishifted to being open to
(13:06):
actually sharing some of thosemistakes that I made early on,
which there's always a situationwhere you feel a little
embarrassed by it or you feellike it makes you look like you
don't know it all.
Well, guess what?
We don't when we're steppinginto it and that's okay, like
that's the authenticity.
And so I think, by getting to aplace of sharing those mistakes
and those missteps, like I wouldmuch rather have somebody
(13:29):
vicariously live through mymistakes and step over the
potholes that I stepped into andbe able to have that and then
it was learning to actually likeput my arms out and lock arms
with inclusivity of my team,because I could drive that team
as hard or as far as I could,but it's to your point.
(13:50):
The smart way to do it is toreally say what is this vision,
that we can go get together,that we feel like collectively
we believe it and we're willingto work towards no-transcript,
(14:24):
but I really do think that thatis such an important part of
leadership that I almost hopepeople have to go through the
hard to get the lessons and theinsight out of it.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Absolutely, and it's sometimes this idea which I
often get, especially in teamdevelopments or leadership
trainings when it comes toemotional intelligence and
communication, when they say,yes, but emotions I can do them
at home or with good friends,but not, please, not at work,
(14:58):
and I get that it's.
It can be difficult to to stepinto that because it's if you've
been told your whole life notto do that, then you can't.
It's very difficult to changethat rapidly, but the truth is
that when you do, when you useyour emotions, that means your
full self.
Then you connect better again,people trust you and, by the way
(15:22):
, you also have more fun becauseyou're actually living while
being at work and not onlyfunctioning, and things become
more easy, as you said, like youcan say, well, I don't know
this, or yesterday I actuallymade a mistake, I'm really sorry
about that.
And when you say that and youmean it, so people can feel you,
then actually it's where itreally becomes interesting, not
(15:46):
only using the words but reallyfeeling that connection to other
people.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I think that also sets an example.
It gives people permission toshow up more authentically in
that interaction versus it beinga transactional relationship.
You have interactions and thenyou allow for space where people
can really show up with theirwhole selves, and I think
there's always that fine line ofshowing your emotions, and I
(16:13):
think that's more aboutself-awareness, right, we don't
want to be so loosely emotionalbut at the same time, we don't
want to be stoic and not haveany emotion whatsoever.
And I think you, you learn andget more comfortable, as you, I
think, get more comfortable withyour own self and your own
leadership.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's one very good concept is
like to speak out but not actout.
So showing your emotionsdoesn't mean like I'm emotional,
I am angry now, no.
But it could mean like I feelangry and I'm going to say, well
(16:52):
, this is not okay with me,because anger is the emotion of
saying this is not okay with me.
So so to speak up, I'm settingthe boundary here.
So you use your emotion as asignal to like, oh, this is not,
this is not okay, and you canwhat you said before.
You can give a little like doseof your anger, like, because
(17:15):
you will not say that with asmiling I'm angry.
You can say, well, this is notokay with me and people.
So you can use some of youremotion to express that, but
very correctly, especially whenyou're in a leadership function.
(17:35):
You will not pollute theenvironment with your unfiltered
expression of the emotion.
You will feel it like you willalso not run around in a piggy
dance when you're happy.
You will express it in a waythat people can deal with it.
So I think that's the magic ofit to feel it and then to share
(17:57):
it in a way that is healthy forothers.
And again, especially whenyou're in a leadership function.
It's not your team's job tomanage your emotions.
So neither to be in thespotlight for the whole day
because your daughter's gettingmarried that's beautiful, but
(18:17):
maybe other people havesomething going on as well and
not to pollute when you're in abad place, because as a leader,
your impact is exponentiallyhigh on the team.
So anything that you do,especially that is negative,
will weigh on your team.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And I think language is important, and I love the
word that you use around pollute, because to me when I think
about pollute, I think about,like pollution, right Filling
the air with something thatisn't healthy, and so I love you
say that because I think thatprovides a really good
visualization of what are youbringing to the air in your
(19:01):
leadership?
Are you bringing?
You know we talk about?
I think one of the buzzwordstoday is toxicity.
Right, like, oh, I have a toxicworkplace.
What kind of?
In what ways?
Or are you bringing any?
You know?
Are you polluting the air?
I really, really like that.
That really sits with me welland it makes me observe.
(19:21):
It makes me the owner ofobserving what I'm bringing.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, and that's the question again of power.
Because if you pollute theenvironment with your unfiltered
whatever happens, then as aleader you're less powerful
because people will go intohiding.
They will not trust.
Trust you less, trust eachother less because the
atmosphere becomes unsafe, soyou will achieve less because
(19:47):
your team will not be at itsbest when you do that.
And that's a very good reasonto.
If it doesn't come naturally towork at it or to use that
capacity to say, okay, what'swhat's the right way to to
express myself hereauthentically, because
authenticity doesn't mean Ialways say everything that that
just comes or I'm my unfilteredself, like I'm an authentic
(20:11):
asshole.
But it's not what it is aboutExactly.
It means authenticity meansmore to show up fully, to be
really present, to be open, butin the healthy way of being
(20:32):
myself, which means alsoauthenticity requires some work.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
So when I show up, I show up in my healthy version
and not in my messed up versionyou you've written about, uh, in
your book you wrote about aconcept called grounded
leadership and it seemsparticularly relevant, just in
kind of the, I guess, thevolatile world that we're living
in.
Today.
How, how would you guideleaders to remain centered and
(21:04):
present when facing thevolatility or unprecedented
change, complexity, the thingsthat are thrown at us?
It sometimes feels very heavy.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, love this question.
It's really important.
So to me, there are two mainaspects there.
The first is purpose.
So what I've experienced andthere's a lot of literature
about that also is when we aregrounded in a purpose, like
something that is reallyimportant to us, that we care
(21:36):
about, then we are moreresilient and therefore also
more powerful.
We are able to pull throughbetter, but also we are able to
convince more.
So that's one thing.
So in chaos, there's a very goodlike book and like philosophy
(21:59):
actually about that.
Maybe you, you know as apsychologist, victor franco, yes
, like the, the father of the,it's not not logopedy, it's the
logotherapy around this therapyof purpose, of therapy of reason
.
And he observed also that otherpeople who survived were the
(22:47):
ones who had a purpose beyondthe day-to-day and in this
extreme environment.
I find this so powerful to knowthis Like it actually works.
It's actually something that isbeyond powerful to be connected
to our purpose.
So that can be in this big,like important environment, and
(23:08):
that can also be like how do wesurvive and thrive in the
current like importantenvironment?
And that can also be like howdo we, how do we survive and
thrive in the current verychaotic environment like, do we
like despair?
Or do we say, oh yes, but thereis a bigger purpose that I want
to pursue and that willactually help me move forward
and be resilient and also beconvincing, because I'm working
(23:29):
towards something mightier.
So that's one thing.
The second is what I work on alot and which is linked to my
other life, which is about danceand art.
And the body is when we areliving, inhabiting our body is
when we are living, inhabitingour body, when we are
(23:52):
comfortable in our body, when weare connected to our breath,
it's so much easier to survive arough day or to orient
ourselves in a difficultenvironment.
It works because our body andemotion gets impacted by what
(24:14):
happens.
Just imagine you want to crossa road and there's a truck
coming and it almost runs youover.
You're impacted physically,emotionally, but it works also
the other way emotionally, butit works also the other way.
So when we are working our body, when we are, when we are able
(24:35):
to inhabit our body, to becomfortable in the body, then
our emotional and mental stateare more solid.
So that is super effective workand I use it a lot with my
clients and I see howbeautifully it works for them,
does have so much to do with, Ithink, probably getting to know
yourself better, right, wouldyou say, like inhabiting your
(24:56):
body.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
There's so often, and I think so much of it has to do
with TV and social media andthese images that are portrayed
as to you know what amazinglooks like, when we can still
feel amazing, no matter whatbody we're in, and I think,
leaning into that piece, there'slike this inner.
There's inner, there's a joy,almost like a childlike, right.
(25:22):
It's like that, that awe andwonder and that joy of leaning
into that.
And when you're in that space,when you're occupying your own
body in that way, the hard feelsa little lighter, the
difficulty feels, you know,feels a little less weighty.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
It feels very different.
It feels very different becausewhen we are physically present
in the body, like one can trythat out immediately, like
you're listening to this and youjust after this fall, even
while you're listening, youconnect to your breath and you
really feel into oh, I'm here inmy body.
(26:04):
You will feel how differentthat feels and it's exactly
something.
It's this oh, I feel a sort ofhappiness that comes from
nowhere, and therefore alsoresilience and strength.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Okay, you know the routine.
This is where I hit the pausebutton.
I hope you've enjoyed part oneof Smart Power and Authentic
Leadership with Dr SylviaRode-Libanau.
Make sure to come back nextweek where she guides us through
practical tools for embodiedleadership and navigating our
increasingly complex world.
Discover the ABC method forinstant centering, why the heart
(26:40):
is the most dysfunctional organin today's organizations and
how to distinguish trueintuition from workplace bias.
I think you're going to enjoyit, so hope to see you next week
.
Thank you so much for listeningand for being here on this
journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
(27:01):
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know.
Many need to hear this message.
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
Contact Me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
(27:22):
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
(27:43):
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:58):
Welcome back to another episodeof Evoke Greatness, where we
uncover the wisdom of remarkableindividuals making a genuine
impact in our world.
Today, we're joined by DrSylvia Rowe-Libanau, founder of
the Smart Power Method and aleadership expert with over 30
years of experience transforminghow leaders create impact with
ease.
With a PhD in internationalrelations and a background
(02:20):
spanning from EuropeanInvestment Bank to her current
work coaching C-suite executivesat organizations like UNHCR,
european Central Bank and Amazon, sylvia brings a uniquely
powerful perspective.
What truly sets her apart ishow she integrates her artistic
talents as a painter, dancer andsinger into her leadership
(02:41):
approach, giving clients anembodied understanding of
presence and authenticity.
Her upcoming book who's inCharge promises to reveal
pathways to resilience andmeaningful leadership.
Sylvia, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Hello Sunny.
It's such a pleasure to speakto you today.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, I always like to kick it off in learning a
little bit more about your story.
What was it?
You come from a background ofbanking and have woven in so
much of this artistic componentof life to lead you.
What led you to the currentpath you're on today?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, the path led me to the path.
So banking is probablysomething that if you had asked
me when I was in my 20s Iwouldn't have dreamt of going
into, because I studiedpolitical science and I was
actually like torn betweenpsychology and political science
.
So I ended up doing politicalscience and law and focused on
international relations, both mymaster's and the PhD, and I
(03:39):
always studied, like,psychological aspects of
politics and was very fascinatedfascinated about power, about
like is is power really what wethink it is, or is it also
something different?
And so I studied power in mymaster's, which was about the un
disarmament conference, andthen in my phd, which was about
(04:02):
the like of NGOs andtransnational collaboration on
government politics and howactually the non-government
actors had an influence on theEast-West conflict and how it
ended, and so that taught me alot.
But then I decided not tocontinue in academia but to go
(04:27):
into the practical world, whichwas a very good decision,
because as soon as I had landedthere I realized that rolling up
my sleeves and doing somethingpractical made me much more
happy than sitting behind mydesk and studying things and
debating academic wisdoms.
And so my first job was at theEuropean Commission dealing with
(04:49):
development cooperation.
And so there I was fascinatedabout like, why does an
organization change and anotherdoes not change, when we were
helping institutions to reform,and also, how did the
institution in which I wasworking, the European Commission
itself, how did that function?
Why did people behave the waythey behaved and what worked and
(05:12):
what kind of leadership styleworked?
And what kind of leadershipstyle worked?
A bit less.
And one of the things thatfascinated me very early on was
this know, these silos inorganizations, how they
sometimes inhibit good outcomes,where I was told very early on,
you shouldn't give informationto them because then they will
(05:34):
take over and say, well, but wehave to talk to them because
actually by talking to eachother and by sharing information
we will have better outcomestogether.
So that was early insights andwell, that was in the
institution.
And then I went to consulting,actually because I had the
feeling that consultantssometimes did the more juicy
(05:55):
work compared to theadministrators in the
institution when it came tothese development cooperation
programs.
And from there then I ended upfinally in banking, but it was
not as a banker but inorganization development and
coaching, which I had studiedwhen I was in consulting.
So I worked for 17 years forthe European Investment Bank
(06:20):
dealing with career management,talent management, organization
health, where I was leading thatfunction, creating that
function for a few years, andthen finally with leadership
development.
And then, having dealt withleadership development in that
fantastic institution which I'mworking for, at a certain stage
(06:43):
I felt like now I want to domore of that beyond this
institution.
So that's when I left in, likethree years ago, when I left the
European Investment Bank towork as a leadership coach and
facilitator for many differentorganizations.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Sounds like we're very aligned.
In early in my career I wascommitted, I was all in on
psychology.
I was so fascinated by whatmade people do and think and
behave in the manner in whichthey did.
I didn't end up going intopsychology, I ended up going
into nursing, but I still thinkthat was a thread that was woven
through my career and I thinktoday, farther in my career, I
(07:26):
probably embrace that much moreof really loving the
psychological aspect behind whatpeople take, and so I think
that's a similar threadthroughout stories.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Isn't that also interesting?
Because nursing is also a verypsychological profession.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
My understanding of this psychology.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's right.
I never thought about that butI thought, oh man, I can see
today looking back, but I think,as I thought, shifting out of
psychology and focusing onnursing, I kind of felt like I
was giving that up or leavingthat behind.
It really partnered with me allthrough my career.
You had a LinkedIn post andthis goes to really talking
(08:12):
about your book and your conceptof this smart power LinkedIn
post and you distinguish thesedifferent kinds of power
destructive power, choose powerand what you call a smarter kind
of power.
I would love for you to justkind of share a little bit more
about what makes up each ofthose.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So let me start with how I got to this, talking about
power.
It was really seeing that whatpeople believe to be power is
sometimes not that powerful.
So in the corporate world, forinstance, when people believe
like pushing and having controlover people or things, that
(08:54):
makes them powerful.
But then you see that usingthat kind of power often makes
people end up achieving lessthan they could if they had a
different approach.
So that made me thought ah,maybe power is actually
something different, and so myproposition is let's rethink
(09:15):
power so that actually we canachieve more, that we are more
successful, and let's questionwhether power equals force and
control is really the rightanswer, or whether there is
maybe another approach that wecould use.
And what I found is thatleaders who use a more
(09:38):
purposeful approach to say, notonly I'm in control, but hey,
people, there is something thatwe can achieve together and
that's inspiring, so let's gothere together.
They have more followership andtherefore they're more
effective.
Then the aspect ofcollaboration to privilege, like
(10:00):
the one plus one is 11 kind ofidea.
So it's not that by controllingand being on top that I will
achieve more, but to be open tosay, well, I want to go there.
What do you think?
What do you think about it?
Can we maybe merge ourstrategies and merge our
(10:21):
resources and achieve moretogether so that actually makes
me more powerful?
And merge our resources andachieve more together?
So that actually makes me morepowerful?
It might look as though I waslosing power because I'm giving
up some control or I'm openingmyself up to ideas from other
people, but in the end I achievemore.
That's simply what we can findwhen we compare the leadership
(10:43):
styles of people.
And then it's also more on thepersonal side.
If you see leaders that areafraid of showing emotions,
they're afraid of connecting toothers personally, they tend to
be less powerful.
I've seen it very often Someonesays, yes, but I can't show my
(11:08):
personality at work, becausework is work and personal life
is personal life, but thenpeople don't trust them that
much because they can't see whothey really are.
And for instance, also when youare in a conflict situation
maybe a difficult conversationand you are in a conflict
situation, maybe a difficultconversation and you hide behind
a wall of I'm not showinganything about my feelings or
(11:32):
I'm hiding behind rules ratherthan being personal.
That's a less powerfulconversation than being
authentically there.
So the third aspect of smarterpower is just to summarize it is
to be authentic, so it'spurposeful, it is about
collaboration and there are morefacets to that.
(11:53):
And then there's the authenticpersonal power.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
It's so interesting that you say that in.
I think sometimes, especiallyearly in one's career, power is
maybe more of a perception thana lived experience.
Right, because you've not gonethrough that.
Back in the early days, in myvery first role of leadership, I
(12:21):
had an approach that was notthe right approach.
My perception was power wasthis bold thing that you grab a
hold of?
You are the leader, you are theone leading.
I shake my head now like what afool I was.
But a lot of lessons came outof it, and so that's why I
(12:41):
wouldn't change it, because Itook and I learned and I grew so
much as a result of it.
What I found was that was myperception, but I had no lived
experience.
And so once I started getting alived experience, I fell down
and I made some mistakes and Irealized that I can't lead a
team with I, and so, as Ishifted to being open to
(13:06):
actually sharing some of thosemistakes that I made early on,
which there's always a situationwhere you feel a little
embarrassed by it or you feellike it makes you look like you
don't know it all.
Well, guess what?
We don't when we're steppinginto it and that's okay, like
that's the authenticity.
And so I think, by getting to aplace of sharing those mistakes
and those missteps, like I wouldmuch rather have somebody
(13:29):
vicariously live through mymistakes and step over the
potholes that I stepped into andbe able to have that and then
it was learning to actually likeput my arms out and lock arms
with inclusivity of my team,because I could drive that team
as hard or as far as I could,but it's to your point.
(13:50):
The smart way to do it is toreally say what is this vision,
that we can go get together,that we feel like collectively
we believe it and we're willingto work towards no-transcript,
(14:24):
but I really do think that thatis such an important part of
leadership that I almost hopepeople have to go through the
hard to get the lessons and theinsight out of it.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Absolutely, and it's sometimes this idea which I
often get, especially in teamdevelopments or leadership
trainings when it comes toemotional intelligence and
communication, when they say,yes, but emotions I can do them
at home or with good friends,but not, please, not at work,
(14:58):
and I get that it's.
It can be difficult to to stepinto that because it's if you've
been told your whole life notto do that, then you can't.
It's very difficult to changethat rapidly, but the truth is
that when you do, when you useyour emotions, that means your
full self.
Then you connect better again,people trust you and, by the way
(15:22):
, you also have more fun becauseyou're actually living while
being at work and not onlyfunctioning, and things become
more easy, as you said, like youcan say, well, I don't know
this, or yesterday I actuallymade a mistake, I'm really sorry
about that.
And when you say that and youmean it, so people can feel you,
then actually it's where itreally becomes interesting, not
(15:46):
only using the words but reallyfeeling that connection to other
people.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I think that also sets an example.
It gives people permission toshow up more authentically in
that interaction versus it beinga transactional relationship.
You have interactions and thenyou allow for space where people
can really show up with theirwhole selves, and I think
there's always that fine line ofshowing your emotions, and I
(16:13):
think that's more aboutself-awareness, right, we don't
want to be so loosely emotionalbut at the same time, we don't
want to be stoic and not haveany emotion whatsoever.
And I think you, you learn andget more comfortable, as you, I
think, get more comfortable withyour own self and your own
leadership.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's one very good concept is
like to speak out but not actout.
So showing your emotionsdoesn't mean like I'm emotional,
I am angry now, no.
But it could mean like I feelangry and I'm going to say, well
(16:52):
, this is not okay with me,because anger is the emotion of
saying this is not okay with me.
So so to speak up, I'm settingthe boundary here.
So you use your emotion as asignal to like, oh, this is not,
this is not okay, and you canwhat you said before.
You can give a little like doseof your anger, like, because
(17:15):
you will not say that with asmiling I'm angry.
You can say, well, this is notokay with me and people.
So you can use some of youremotion to express that, but
very correctly, especially whenyou're in a leadership function.
(17:35):
You will not pollute theenvironment with your unfiltered
expression of the emotion.
You will feel it like you willalso not run around in a piggy
dance when you're happy.
You will express it in a waythat people can deal with it.
So I think that's the magic ofit to feel it and then to share
(17:57):
it in a way that is healthy forothers.
And again, especially whenyou're in a leadership function.
It's not your team's job tomanage your emotions.
So neither to be in thespotlight for the whole day
because your daughter's gettingmarried that's beautiful, but
(18:17):
maybe other people havesomething going on as well and
not to pollute when you're in abad place, because as a leader,
your impact is exponentiallyhigh on the team.
So anything that you do,especially that is negative,
will weigh on your team.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And I think language is important, and I love the
word that you use around pollute, because to me when I think
about pollute, I think about,like pollution, right Filling
the air with something thatisn't healthy, and so I love you
say that because I think thatprovides a really good
visualization of what are youbringing to the air in your
(19:01):
leadership?
Are you bringing?
You know we talk about?
I think one of the buzzwordstoday is toxicity.
Right, like, oh, I have a toxicworkplace.
What kind of?
In what ways?
Or are you bringing any?
You know?
Are you polluting the air?
I really, really like that.
That really sits with me welland it makes me observe.
(19:21):
It makes me the owner ofobserving what I'm bringing.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, and that's the question again of power.
Because if you pollute theenvironment with your unfiltered
whatever happens, then as aleader you're less powerful
because people will go intohiding.
They will not trust.
Trust you less, trust eachother less because the
atmosphere becomes unsafe, soyou will achieve less because
(19:47):
your team will not be at itsbest when you do that.
And that's a very good reasonto.
If it doesn't come naturally towork at it or to use that
capacity to say, okay, what'swhat's the right way to to
express myself hereauthentically, because
authenticity doesn't mean Ialways say everything that that
just comes or I'm my unfilteredself, like I'm an authentic
(20:11):
asshole.
But it's not what it is aboutExactly.
It means authenticity meansmore to show up fully, to be
really present, to be open, butin the healthy way of being
(20:32):
myself, which means alsoauthenticity requires some work.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
So when I show up, I show up in my healthy version
and not in my messed up versionyou you've written about, uh, in
your book you wrote about aconcept called grounded
leadership and it seemsparticularly relevant, just in
kind of the, I guess, thevolatile world that we're living
in.
Today.
How, how would you guideleaders to remain centered and
(21:04):
present when facing thevolatility or unprecedented
change, complexity, the thingsthat are thrown at us?
It sometimes feels very heavy.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, love this question.
It's really important.
So to me, there are two mainaspects there.
The first is purpose.
So what I've experienced andthere's a lot of literature
about that also is when we aregrounded in a purpose, like
something that is reallyimportant to us, that we care
(21:36):
about, then we are moreresilient and therefore also
more powerful.
We are able to pull throughbetter, but also we are able to
convince more.
So that's one thing.
So in chaos, there's a very goodlike book and like philosophy
(21:59):
actually about that.
Maybe you, you know as apsychologist, victor franco, yes
, like the, the father of the,it's not not logopedy, it's the
logotherapy around this therapyof purpose, of therapy of reason
.
And he observed also that otherpeople who survived were the
(22:47):
ones who had a purpose beyondthe day-to-day and in this
extreme environment.
I find this so powerful to knowthis Like it actually works.
It's actually something that isbeyond powerful to be connected
to our purpose.
So that can be in this big,like important environment, and
(23:08):
that can also be like how do wesurvive and thrive in the
current like importantenvironment?
And that can also be like howdo we, how do we survive and
thrive in the current verychaotic environment like, do we
like despair?
Or do we say, oh yes, but thereis a bigger purpose that I want
to pursue and that willactually help me move forward
and be resilient and also beconvincing, because I'm working
(23:29):
towards something mightier.
So that's one thing.
The second is what I work on alot and which is linked to my
other life, which is about danceand art.
And the body is when we areliving, inhabiting our body is
when we are living, inhabitingour body, when we are
(23:52):
comfortable in our body, when weare connected to our breath,
it's so much easier to survive arough day or to orient
ourselves in a difficultenvironment.
It works because our body andemotion gets impacted by what
(24:14):
happens.
Just imagine you want to crossa road and there's a truck
coming and it almost runs youover.
You're impacted physically,emotionally, but it works also
the other way emotionally, butit works also the other way.
So when we are working our body, when we are, when we are able
(24:35):
to inhabit our body, to becomfortable in the body, then
our emotional and mental stateare more solid.
So that is super effective workand I use it a lot with my
clients and I see howbeautifully it works for them,
does have so much to do with, Ithink, probably getting to know
yourself better, right, wouldyou say, like inhabiting your
(24:56):
body.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
There's so often, and I think so much of it has to do
with TV and social media andthese images that are portrayed
as to you know what amazinglooks like, when we can still
feel amazing, no matter whatbody we're in, and I think,
leaning into that piece, there'slike this inner.
There's inner, there's a joy,almost like a childlike, right.
(25:22):
It's like that, that awe andwonder and that joy of leaning
into that.
And when you're in that space,when you're occupying your own
body in that way, the hard feelsa little lighter, the
difficulty feels, you know,feels a little less weighty.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
It feels very different.
It feels very different becausewhen we are physically present
in the body, like one can trythat out immediately, like
you're listening to this and youjust after this fall, even
while you're listening, youconnect to your breath and you
really feel into oh, I'm here inmy body.
(26:04):
You will feel how differentthat feels and it's exactly
something.
It's this oh, I feel a sort ofhappiness that comes from
nowhere, and therefore alsoresilience and strength.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Okay, you know the routine.
This is where I hit the pausebutton.
I hope you've enjoyed part oneof Smart Power and Authentic
Leadership with Dr SylviaRode-Libanau.
Make sure to come back nextweek where she guides us through
practical tools for embodiedleadership and navigating our
increasingly complex world.
Discover the ABC method forinstant centering, why the heart
(26:40):
is the most dysfunctional organin today's organizations and
how to distinguish trueintuition from workplace bias.
I think you're going to enjoyit, so hope to see you next week
.
Thank you so much for listeningand for being here on this
journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
(27:01):
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know.
Many need to hear this message.
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
Contact Me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
(27:22):
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
(27:43):
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
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