June 3, 2025 • 26 mins
🎧 Episode 166: Smart Power and Authentic Leadership with Dr. Sylvia Rhode-Liebenau (Part 2)
In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Sylvia Rhode-Liebenau, we go deeper into the embodied aspects of leadership and explore what the future holds for effective decision-making in an AI-driven world. Sylvia shares practical techniques for internal alignment, reveals the most dysfunctional "organ" in today's leadership ecosystem, and discusses her provocative new book "Who's in Charge?"
We explore:
- The ABC technique for embodied leadership: Awareness, Balance, and Core relaxation
- Why setting clear intentions transforms every interaction and meeting
- What power-hungry leaders consistently misunderstand about true influence
- The "heart" as the most neglected vital organ in organizational leadership
- How to distinguish between genuine intuition and "pseudo-intuition" in decision-making
- The multiple layers behind the question "Who's in Charge?" in our chaotic world
- Why the future of leadership depends on creativity vs. reactivity with AI
- Essential human skills that AI can never replace in leadership
🔑 Key takeaways:
- The ABC Practice: Use Awareness (feel your whole body), Balance (find your center), and Core relaxation (release tension) to get present before important interactions
- Intentional Leadership: Always clarify your purpose before meetings - Do you want to influence, gather information, or create connections?
- Control vs. Influence: Power-hungry leaders fail because they try to control everything instead of building influence through relationship and trust
- The Heart Dysfunction: Organizations suffer when leaders believe emotions don't belong in the workplace, missing the fact that most decisions are emotional first, then rationalized
- True vs. Pseudo-Intuition: Real intuition assesses capability objectively; pseudo-intuition is just favoritism disguised as gut feeling
- Sovereignty in Chaos: Being truly "in charge" means self-awareness and sovereignty, not external control
- Human-AI Partnership: The future belongs to leaders who use AI as a tool while maintaining creativity, critical thinking, and human connection
💡 Quotes to remember:
"When I relax, I can be even more present because where I'm tense, I'm not really present."
"The heart, the emotions don't have a place, whereas they have a very important place... most of our decision makings are actually emotional. And then afterwards we rationalize what's going on."
"It's really just the distinction between creativity and reactivity... I can remain in creativity to first be a creative human being to say, what is the purpose? What do we want here?"
Final wisdom: "Feel the gratitude of life each moment and every day - it makes such a difference."
📚 Resources mentioned:
- Book: "Who's in Charge?" by Dr. Sylvia Rhode-Liebenau
- Website: https://www.smartpowerm
A rising tide raises all ships, and I invite you along on this journey to Evoke Greatness!
Check out my website: www.evokegreatness.com
Follow me on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonnie-linebarger-899b9a52/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:57):
Welcome back to part two ofSmart Power and Authentic
Leadership with my guest, drSylvia Rode-Lebanow.
If you haven't yet listened topart one, you go back to last
week's episode and take a listen, where we dive deep into
redefining power beyond forceand control, the three pillars
of smart power, why showingemotions at work makes leaders
(02:19):
more effective, not less, andthe concept of grounded
leadership during volatile times.
I think you're going to enjoypart two, so let's go ahead and
hop into it.
You also talk about theconnection between leadership
effectiveness and you know, aswe talked about, like being
fully connected.
Are there any other practicesthat you could recommend for
(02:40):
leaders who want to strengthentheir sense of internal
alignment?
You know and maybe that is justpausing a little bit in the day
, maybe it's pausing as you'rehearing this podcast and hearing
as we have this conversation,but what are some ways that
people can tap into thatinterconnectedness and maybe
(03:02):
it's maybe they're not used toit.
Into that interconnectedness,um, and maybe it's, maybe they
they're not used to it, and soit feels really uncomfortable.
How could you guide someonewho's like your baby steps into
that?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
so there is um, a physical, and an exercise can
for instance be which comes fromembodiment to um, to simply
feel into our body that you canstand or sit.
It's called actually ABC,centering attention like
awareness, like breathing, feelthe whole body, just to become,
(03:40):
to get into the body, so to havea full awareness where I am
with the body, like standing,feeling.
And then the B is balance liketo just sitting or standing,
just to see, like where's mycenter point, and so maybe like
a thing that balances off, thatcome to stillness.
(04:01):
And then the C is corerelaxation.
Like the core is, like thesecenters in the center of the
body, like the, the points inthe center of the body that can
be tense, like the, likefrowning frontier, um, the
throat and the, the diaphragmand maybe also the belly, like
(04:24):
just to to check that out, tosee like where do I have tension
and when.
When I've done that, likeawareness, balance and core
relaxation, I will definitely bemore in my body, because the
awareness puts me in the body.
The balance is like, oh, where,where am I actually?
And then the relaxation when Irelax I can be even more present
(04:49):
, because where I'm tense I'mnot really present.
There is something else thatholds me when I relax, that it's
like breathing in, just lettingthe air fill the space.
So that's a beautiful one.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, and those are things that people can really
just start with and startgetting comfortable with.
And you don't have to do it ina big group.
You do it in your office whenyou close the door and really
just get re-centered for yourday, or re-centered before your
meeting or before a hardconversation.
I think those are the timeswhen we're really intentional
and we're setting the intentionsof the next interaction we're
(05:27):
going into.
It really helps us navigate tothe best of our ability.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And then, if you like , the intention for the next
conversation.
You just named it.
Another practice that I use formyself and that I also give my
clients is to think about why.
What's the purpose here?
So there's the big purpose ofour lives, but there's also the
purpose of why do I go to thismeeting?
(05:54):
It's not only because I wastold to go there or because I
get some money there, but whatis actually my purpose then?
So do I want to influence?
Do I want to obtain information?
Is it mainly to createconnections?
Now?
So what is my intention here?
And to align with thatintention again, I will show up
(06:15):
much differently than just tookay, I go and then I'll see
what happens moving back tothose leaders that that operate
in a way where they're morepower hungry again, like me, you
know they're.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
They're not really tuned in or tapped into like
that that right way, but they're.
They're those more powerhungry's.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
What I've seen, it's more like I want to have the
power and the control and thenI'll be able to do these things.
(07:00):
So they miss sometimes that, um, they can't control everything
anyways.
So they think if I control,then I have the maximum power,
whereas we can't control peopleand outcomes.
Ultimately, we can influencethem greatly, but we have more
(07:21):
influence if we don't only relyon the control and force
leverages.
That's one thing, and anotherthing that I've observed is that
some of these people believethat forcing and intimidating is
actually a powerful andeffective way of getting things
(07:42):
done.
So I actually had a conversation, one with a leader and it's
very exemplary of this kind ofleadership approach where he was
known in the organization to bequite a bully, and I had this
conversation with him, askinghim listen, basically I said
(08:03):
what's your approach?
What is your thinking?
What's your approach?
What?
What is your thinking?
What's your strategy?
And he said like, yeah, uh, Imean, sometimes you really have
to um, or I?
I know that I'm actuallyintimidating them.
I want them to like, um, be alittle bit afraid, because then
there will be more on their toesand they will work harder.
I say, well, that's interesting, because can you also see that
(08:27):
when you are intimidating them,then their attention actually
goes on you intimidating themand them needing to protect
themselves, like theirlivelihood, from you.
And he said oh yes, that makessense, because he was a very
smart man.
And I have to think about that.
(08:49):
Well, he continued to do what hedid before because probably it
was too much of an old recipefor him, and actually he ended
up being put aside as a leader,into a faraway office and not
having the important role thathe had before.
So he failed as a leader usingthat approach.
(09:11):
But it's this idea.
If I do that, then I will havethat outcome.
And it's often really anapproach of I know best and
since I know best, I have topush people to do it the right
way.
And that's often also a fallacy, because even the smartest
(09:36):
people don't know everythingbest.
So sometimes, even for thesmartest people, it's useful to
listen and learn something new.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
If you think about organizations as living
organisms, what vital organ ismost dysfunctional in today's
leadership ecosystem?
Where do you feel it's mostbroken?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
That's a very interesting question.
Vital organs are where we havethe brain and the heart and the
stomach.
I'd say the heart is often notbroken, but not functioning so
well, because we still believethat we had this topic earlier
(10:23):
in the conversation the heart,the emotions, don't have a place
, whereas they have a veryimportant place and it's already
.
They have an important placebecause heart also thinks, like
the emotions also think.
And as one of our corporatelawyers once explained to me,
(10:49):
sylvia, don't you think that thejudge was about a court case,
that the judge makes onlyrational decisions?
Judges are very much influencedby emotions and you, as a
psychologist, will also knowthat most of our decision
makings are actually emotional.
And then afterwards afterwards,we rationalize what's going on.
(11:11):
So of course, it's not that wecan't do a mathematical
calculation with our heart.
We need our logical thinkingfor that.
But for strategic decisionsit's a lot about our intuition,
our emotions, and then we thinkdoes it make sense, does it work
, et cetera, and let's thinkthrough the plan of
(11:33):
implementation.
But this intuition is anemotional thing.
So it's very useful to be awareof that and not stumble into it
, so that we can also understandwhen our emotions trick us that
when we are maybe like we arerunning after an emotional
(11:57):
trigger or goodie, that isbecause we have some unresolved
issues.
So when we know our emotionsand how we we function better,
then we can use these emotionsmore wisely.
So that's one thing, and theother is that in our
communication, emotions appearall the time.
(12:18):
So sometimes when when leaderstell me yes, but the emotions I
should, should leave them outbecause they have nothing to do
at the workplace we talked aboutthat.
They have nothing to like.
Emotional explosions are nothelpful.
But to express our emotions ina good way is much better than
to have them like seep throughin a negative way, because if
(12:40):
I'm raging underneath and Idon't know how to handle that,
people will feel it.
I try to hide it, but peoplewill feel that I'm really in a
bad state and they will becomeunsafe around me.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
So it's hugely important you know, mentioned
something about intuition, and Ithink that is.
I would love to just kind ofpull on that thread a little bit
.
I think most people have somesort of intuition, even if they
try, even if they don't, ifthey're not really tapped into
it.
There are things that sit inour body or cause a response in
(13:22):
our body in some way that alertsus to something.
It could be good, it could benot so good.
Do you see, from a corporateperspective, that people are
kind of overall paying attentionto their intuition?
(13:43):
Are they letting that gutfeeling guide them, or do you
think that's something that'slike oh, there's no place for
this in the corporate world orin the business world.
And I'm curious also if maybethere's a difference between men
and women around that.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I wouldn't think that there is a difference about
good intuition between men andwomen.
The best leaders I have workedwith, they have a strong
intuition and they use itdefinitely.
And then there's alsopseudo-intuition.
I remember this discussion wehad years ago when I was in HR
(14:27):
and we were introducingsuccession planning and one of
the old leaders said well, wedon't need a succession planning
system because a real leaderknows who to appoint.
So I got the intuition.
And that's kind of hiding umbehind an intuition which is not
(14:48):
an intuition, but like I knowbill, I like bill, we're going
out for drinks together.
I don't know so and so, butactually so and so.
With a real intuition you wouldknow he's the better or she is
the better person for this job.
So intuition would say ah, Ithink all of that I've seen for
them.
They don't even need to go toan assessment center.
I know that she or he has gotthe stuff to do the job.
(15:13):
But the pseudo intuition issometimes yeah, I went, I go
golfing with, with, with them,and then therefore, uh, they're
friends and therefore they getthe job.
That's not intuition.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's a really good point to call out.
I understand your new book istitled who's in Charge and I'm
curious what inspired that,because I think that could be a
provocative question.
When you really think about it,when you go back to the smart
power and you start unpackingall of that, my thought is it
(15:49):
likely kind of folds into this.
But tell us a little bit aboutyou know what is the concept
behind it and where did you comeup with that name?
What was behind that?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So, by the way, by now it's already come out.
It came out last autumn and um,yeah and uh.
Originally, I like the workingtitle was energy, power legacy,
because that's the three pillarsof the book.
Like, in this chaotic world,how we do, how do we define
power and use power, how do wemanage our energy, because we
(16:20):
need to do that in order to be,remain resilient and effective.
And then, how do we combinesuccess with fulfillment?
Legacy and, as well, I, as Iwas working, like on the book,
working towards completion, Ireally focused on this aspect of
complexity and the chaos thatwe live and work in, and also
(16:51):
about the fact that the old ideaof power is to be in charge to
control everything.
Idea of power is to be in charge, like to control everything.
And then the question is doesthat really make you be in
charge?
Are you really in charge then?
So that was one question.
And then the other question isum, in this chaotic world today,
(17:16):
um, are we sure that that thatlike, are we sure who's in
charge?
Is it the politicians?
Is it business?
Is it like any?
Who?
Which politicians actually?
Or is it maybe ai which is incharge meanwhile?
So it's really this questionlike who is in charge and um, um
, are the white people in charge?
(17:37):
But that's that's.
That's more of a judgment, butwhy, who is in charge?
And also, when we are in charge, are we really in charge or is
something running us?
So it's this question ofself-awareness.
So there are multiple layers tothat, and so to be truly in
charge that is like to to besovereign, um is a very
(18:00):
important thing for success andand impact in in this chaotic
world that we live in.
That's, that's how the titlecame about.
There's.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I had a pretty type A personality and I refer to
myself as a control enthusiast,which I love it.
My husband calls it somethingvery different.
I refer to it as a controlenthusiast.
But what's interesting is, youknow, I had shared a quote with
someone recently and it says youcan have control or you can
(18:34):
have growth, but you can't haveboth.
And when you really sit in that.
It's like, ooh, as much as wefeel like we want, we desire the
control, we want to control ourcircumstances, we really have
very little we can control thecontrollables, but there's many
uncontrollables in life.
And I loved that quote becauseit was really like okay, are you
(18:58):
willing to lean into theuncontrollables and grow?
And sometimes that growth is alittle bit painful, sometimes
that growth is becoming moreself-aware and in tune to
oneself.
Um, but I really love that islike looking at it of okay, you
can fully have control, whichyou can't, but or you can have
growth and such.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
she can't have both it's actually true, because when
I think I I, then I'm done.
I'm not doing so much anymore,so I can't grow actually.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Right, as you think about the future of leadership
development, what do you thinkwill be something in future
leaders?
What's the most profoundevolution in how we think about
and practice leadership, youknow, in the next 10 years?
Kind of that future forwardthought.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Well, it makes me think of AI, and because many of
the decisions, so leadership,is often decision-making.
It's decision-making andcreating followerships.
It's decision-making andcreating followerships.
And when it comes todecision-making, ai by now could
(20:10):
probably replace leadership,like see through the information
, make logical conclusions andcome to the best decision.
But decision-making is not onlylogic and reason and knowing
the data.
It's also bringing peopletogether for the decision.
And how do you do that?
(20:32):
It's not only through logic.
When I started my career, Ithought it was about having the
best ideas, and then I learnedthat it's not only about having
good ideas, but actually that'snot only about it's good to have
good ideas, but actually that'snot what it is about.
It's about how you connect toother people.
That's about how you createtrust.
It's about how you make otherpeople feel that they are part
of the idea and part of thedecision making, um, and also
(20:56):
not like we've made the decision.
Do you have a comment?
No, um, how they can be part ofalready developing the decision
with you.
And so it's very much about, um,the personal growth of the
leader, um, the personality, theself-awareness, because
self-awareness means that youhave more choice in how you
(21:19):
behave inwardly and outwardly,and then the communication
skills and communication skillsbeing really communication skill
, like technically, how do I ummessage something in a clear way
?
Um, but that's only a smallhalf of it, and maybe the bigger
half is how do I connect, howdo I show empathy, how do I show
(21:47):
myself authentically so thatpeople can develop that trust?
So it's these elements ofleadership that I am certain
will be most important in thecoming years.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And I love that reference of AI because I think
there is a sense of a feararound that and AI taking over
and, as you talk about, it's notjust about the, you know, the
logic side of things, becausethere is that real, true
emotional connectedness that oneneeds to feel like, okay, I can
really, I can really trust thisperson or I can get behind this
(22:24):
idea or concept.
But I think people are reallygrappling with this AI and the
advancement.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And actually, as you go once more into AI, another
thought that comes to me is it'sreally just the distinction
between creativity andreactivity.
You know, with with ai, ifeveryone anyone who has worked
with with one of these ai toolsto create content or um think
(22:54):
about something is, we caneasily fall into the trap to
give the lead to a young, so toI don't have any idea about this
.
So, ai, please tell me.
And um, so that's a reactiveapproach, but I can remain in
creativity to first be acreative human being to say to
(23:17):
say, okay, what is the purpose,what do we want here and what
are maybe main parameters ofwhere we want to go, and then
maybe use a tool to really dothe implementation, but not
over-rely on AI to spoon-feed uswhat we are supposed to do.
And the other thing is also tomaintain our critical thinking
(23:40):
because, especially inleadership, we get maybe
propositions, whether it's fromfrom partners or staff or or ai,
and are we able still to take astep back and say, okay, I see
all this, but what do we reallywant and and where do we go
(24:00):
there, what are the priorities?
And not only react on what'scoming.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
As we wrap up, the one question I always love to
close with is if it were yourlast day on earth and you could
only impart one piece ofknowledge or advice with the
world of all the things you'velearned, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Feel the gratitude of life each moment and every day.
It makes such a difference.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Couldn't agree more, Sylvia, I would love for you to
share I'm going to put this inthe show notes, but I would love
for you to share your websitewhere people can find out more
about you, follow your content,even become a client if they
want to seek your services.
Where people can find out moreabout you, follow your content,
even become a client if theywant to seek your services.
Where can they find that?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So I'm on LinkedIn it's my main playground and you
can easily find me, sylviaRode-Liebina.
And then there is my website,which is smartpowermethodscom,
and there also you can find outmore about my work.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Swamped.
Well, like I said, we'll putthat in the show notes.
Savine, thank you so much forcoming on and just embarking
with them and sharing with myaudience.
I hope people pull up a cup ofcoffee and really lean in and
take notes.
I think the world there'salways the opportunity to get
better, and so I love whenpeople lean in to guests that I
have on to see ways in whichthey can do that.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Thank you so much, sonia, it's a huge pleasure.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Thank you so much for listening and for being here on
this journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know may need to
hear this message.
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
contact me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
(25:58):
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
(26:20):
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:57):
Welcome back to part two ofSmart Power and Authentic
Leadership with my guest, drSylvia Rode-Lebanow.
If you haven't yet listened topart one, you go back to last
week's episode and take a listen, where we dive deep into
redefining power beyond forceand control, the three pillars
of smart power, why showingemotions at work makes leaders
(02:19):
more effective, not less, andthe concept of grounded
leadership during volatile times.
I think you're going to enjoypart two, so let's go ahead and
hop into it.
You also talk about theconnection between leadership
effectiveness and you know, aswe talked about, like being
fully connected.
Are there any other practicesthat you could recommend for
(02:40):
leaders who want to strengthentheir sense of internal
alignment?
You know and maybe that is justpausing a little bit in the day
, maybe it's pausing as you'rehearing this podcast and hearing
as we have this conversation,but what are some ways that
people can tap into thatinterconnectedness and maybe
(03:02):
it's maybe they're not used toit.
Into that interconnectedness,um, and maybe it's, maybe they
they're not used to it, and soit feels really uncomfortable.
How could you guide someonewho's like your baby steps into
that?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
so there is um, a physical, and an exercise can
for instance be which comes fromembodiment to um, to simply
feel into our body that you canstand or sit.
It's called actually ABC,centering attention like
awareness, like breathing, feelthe whole body, just to become,
(03:40):
to get into the body, so to havea full awareness where I am
with the body, like standing,feeling.
And then the B is balance liketo just sitting or standing,
just to see, like where's mycenter point, and so maybe like
a thing that balances off, thatcome to stillness.
(04:01):
And then the C is corerelaxation.
Like the core is, like thesecenters in the center of the
body, like the, the points inthe center of the body that can
be tense, like the, likefrowning frontier, um, the
throat and the, the diaphragmand maybe also the belly, like
(04:24):
just to to check that out, tosee like where do I have tension
and when.
When I've done that, likeawareness, balance and core
relaxation, I will definitely bemore in my body, because the
awareness puts me in the body.
The balance is like, oh, where,where am I actually?
And then the relaxation when Irelax I can be even more present
(04:49):
, because where I'm tense I'mnot really present.
There is something else thatholds me when I relax, that it's
like breathing in, just lettingthe air fill the space.
So that's a beautiful one.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, and those are things that people can really
just start with and startgetting comfortable with.
And you don't have to do it ina big group.
You do it in your office whenyou close the door and really
just get re-centered for yourday, or re-centered before your
meeting or before a hardconversation.
I think those are the timeswhen we're really intentional
and we're setting the intentionsof the next interaction we're
(05:27):
going into.
It really helps us navigate tothe best of our ability.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And then, if you like , the intention for the next
conversation.
You just named it.
Another practice that I use formyself and that I also give my
clients is to think about why.
What's the purpose here?
So there's the big purpose ofour lives, but there's also the
purpose of why do I go to thismeeting?
(05:54):
It's not only because I wastold to go there or because I
get some money there, but whatis actually my purpose then?
So do I want to influence?
Do I want to obtain information?
Is it mainly to createconnections?
Now?
So what is my intention here?
And to align with thatintention again, I will show up
(06:15):
much differently than just tookay, I go and then I'll see
what happens moving back tothose leaders that that operate
in a way where they're morepower hungry again, like me, you
know they're.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
They're not really tuned in or tapped into like
that that right way, but they're.
They're those more powerhungry's.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
What I've seen, it's more like I want to have the
power and the control and thenI'll be able to do these things.
(07:00):
So they miss sometimes that, um, they can't control everything
anyways.
So they think if I control,then I have the maximum power,
whereas we can't control peopleand outcomes.
Ultimately, we can influencethem greatly, but we have more
(07:21):
influence if we don't only relyon the control and force
leverages.
That's one thing, and anotherthing that I've observed is that
some of these people believethat forcing and intimidating is
actually a powerful andeffective way of getting things
(07:42):
done.
So I actually had a conversation, one with a leader and it's
very exemplary of this kind ofleadership approach where he was
known in the organization to bequite a bully, and I had this
conversation with him, askinghim listen, basically I said
(08:03):
what's your approach?
What is your thinking?
What's your approach?
What?
What is your thinking?
What's your strategy?
And he said like, yeah, uh, Imean, sometimes you really have
to um, or I?
I know that I'm actuallyintimidating them.
I want them to like, um, be alittle bit afraid, because then
there will be more on their toesand they will work harder.
I say, well, that's interesting, because can you also see that
(08:27):
when you are intimidating them,then their attention actually
goes on you intimidating themand them needing to protect
themselves, like theirlivelihood, from you.
And he said oh yes, that makessense, because he was a very
smart man.
And I have to think about that.
(08:49):
Well, he continued to do what hedid before because probably it
was too much of an old recipefor him, and actually he ended
up being put aside as a leader,into a faraway office and not
having the important role thathe had before.
So he failed as a leader usingthat approach.
(09:11):
But it's this idea.
If I do that, then I will havethat outcome.
And it's often really anapproach of I know best and
since I know best, I have topush people to do it the right
way.
And that's often also a fallacy, because even the smartest
(09:36):
people don't know everythingbest.
So sometimes, even for thesmartest people, it's useful to
listen and learn something new.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
If you think about organizations as living
organisms, what vital organ ismost dysfunctional in today's
leadership ecosystem?
Where do you feel it's mostbroken?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
That's a very interesting question.
Vital organs are where we havethe brain and the heart and the
stomach.
I'd say the heart is often notbroken, but not functioning so
well, because we still believethat we had this topic earlier
(10:23):
in the conversation the heart,the emotions, don't have a place
, whereas they have a veryimportant place and it's already
.
They have an important placebecause heart also thinks, like
the emotions also think.
And as one of our corporatelawyers once explained to me,
(10:49):
sylvia, don't you think that thejudge was about a court case,
that the judge makes onlyrational decisions?
Judges are very much influencedby emotions and you, as a
psychologist, will also knowthat most of our decision
makings are actually emotional.
And then afterwards afterwards,we rationalize what's going on.
(11:11):
So of course, it's not that wecan't do a mathematical
calculation with our heart.
We need our logical thinkingfor that.
But for strategic decisionsit's a lot about our intuition,
our emotions, and then we thinkdoes it make sense, does it work
, et cetera, and let's thinkthrough the plan of
(11:33):
implementation.
But this intuition is anemotional thing.
So it's very useful to be awareof that and not stumble into it
, so that we can also understandwhen our emotions trick us that
when we are maybe like we arerunning after an emotional
(11:57):
trigger or goodie, that isbecause we have some unresolved
issues.
So when we know our emotionsand how we we function better,
then we can use these emotionsmore wisely.
So that's one thing, and theother is that in our
communication, emotions appearall the time.
(12:18):
So sometimes when when leaderstell me yes, but the emotions I
should, should leave them outbecause they have nothing to do
at the workplace we talked aboutthat.
They have nothing to like.
Emotional explosions are nothelpful.
But to express our emotions ina good way is much better than
to have them like seep throughin a negative way, because if
(12:40):
I'm raging underneath and Idon't know how to handle that,
people will feel it.
I try to hide it, but peoplewill feel that I'm really in a
bad state and they will becomeunsafe around me.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
So it's hugely important you know, mentioned
something about intuition, and Ithink that is.
I would love to just kind ofpull on that thread a little bit
.
I think most people have somesort of intuition, even if they
try, even if they don't, ifthey're not really tapped into
it.
There are things that sit inour body or cause a response in
(13:22):
our body in some way that alertsus to something.
It could be good, it could benot so good.
Do you see, from a corporateperspective, that people are
kind of overall paying attentionto their intuition?
(13:43):
Are they letting that gutfeeling guide them, or do you
think that's something that'slike oh, there's no place for
this in the corporate world orin the business world.
And I'm curious also if maybethere's a difference between men
and women around that.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I wouldn't think that there is a difference about
good intuition between men andwomen.
The best leaders I have workedwith, they have a strong
intuition and they use itdefinitely.
And then there's alsopseudo-intuition.
I remember this discussion wehad years ago when I was in HR
(14:27):
and we were introducingsuccession planning and one of
the old leaders said well, wedon't need a succession planning
system because a real leaderknows who to appoint.
So I got the intuition.
And that's kind of hiding umbehind an intuition which is not
(14:48):
an intuition, but like I knowbill, I like bill, we're going
out for drinks together.
I don't know so and so, butactually so and so.
With a real intuition you wouldknow he's the better or she is
the better person for this job.
So intuition would say ah, Ithink all of that I've seen for
them.
They don't even need to go toan assessment center.
I know that she or he has gotthe stuff to do the job.
(15:13):
But the pseudo intuition issometimes yeah, I went, I go
golfing with, with, with them,and then therefore, uh, they're
friends and therefore they getthe job.
That's not intuition.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's a really good point to call out.
I understand your new book istitled who's in Charge and I'm
curious what inspired that,because I think that could be a
provocative question.
When you really think about it,when you go back to the smart
power and you start unpackingall of that, my thought is it
(15:49):
likely kind of folds into this.
But tell us a little bit aboutyou know what is the concept
behind it and where did you comeup with that name?
What was behind that?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So, by the way, by now it's already come out.
It came out last autumn and um,yeah and uh.
Originally, I like the workingtitle was energy, power legacy,
because that's the three pillarsof the book.
Like, in this chaotic world,how we do, how do we define
power and use power, how do wemanage our energy, because we
(16:20):
need to do that in order to be,remain resilient and effective.
And then, how do we combinesuccess with fulfillment?
Legacy and, as well, I, as Iwas working, like on the book,
working towards completion, Ireally focused on this aspect of
complexity and the chaos thatwe live and work in, and also
(16:51):
about the fact that the old ideaof power is to be in charge to
control everything.
Idea of power is to be in charge, like to control everything.
And then the question is doesthat really make you be in
charge?
Are you really in charge then?
So that was one question.
And then the other question isum, in this chaotic world today,
(17:16):
um, are we sure that that thatlike, are we sure who's in
charge?
Is it the politicians?
Is it business?
Is it like any?
Who?
Which politicians actually?
Or is it maybe ai which is incharge meanwhile?
So it's really this questionlike who is in charge and um, um
, are the white people in charge?
(17:37):
But that's that's.
That's more of a judgment, butwhy, who is in charge?
And also, when we are in charge, are we really in charge or is
something running us?
So it's this question ofself-awareness.
So there are multiple layers tothat, and so to be truly in
charge that is like to to besovereign, um is a very
(18:00):
important thing for success andand impact in in this chaotic
world that we live in.
That's, that's how the titlecame about.
There's.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I had a pretty type A personality and I refer to
myself as a control enthusiast,which I love it.
My husband calls it somethingvery different.
I refer to it as a controlenthusiast.
But what's interesting is, youknow, I had shared a quote with
someone recently and it says youcan have control or you can
(18:34):
have growth, but you can't haveboth.
And when you really sit in that.
It's like, ooh, as much as wefeel like we want, we desire the
control, we want to control ourcircumstances, we really have
very little we can control thecontrollables, but there's many
uncontrollables in life.
And I loved that quote becauseit was really like okay, are you
(18:58):
willing to lean into theuncontrollables and grow?
And sometimes that growth is alittle bit painful, sometimes
that growth is becoming moreself-aware and in tune to
oneself.
Um, but I really love that islike looking at it of okay, you
can fully have control, whichyou can't, but or you can have
growth and such.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
she can't have both it's actually true, because when
I think I I, then I'm done.
I'm not doing so much anymore,so I can't grow actually.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Right, as you think about the future of leadership
development, what do you thinkwill be something in future
leaders?
What's the most profoundevolution in how we think about
and practice leadership, youknow, in the next 10 years?
Kind of that future forwardthought.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Well, it makes me think of AI, and because many of
the decisions, so leadership,is often decision-making.
It's decision-making andcreating followerships.
It's decision-making andcreating followerships.
And when it comes todecision-making, ai by now could
(20:10):
probably replace leadership,like see through the information
, make logical conclusions andcome to the best decision.
But decision-making is not onlylogic and reason and knowing
the data.
It's also bringing peopletogether for the decision.
And how do you do that?
(20:32):
It's not only through logic.
When I started my career, Ithought it was about having the
best ideas, and then I learnedthat it's not only about having
good ideas, but actually that'snot only about it's good to have
good ideas, but actually that'snot what it is about.
It's about how you connect toother people.
That's about how you createtrust.
It's about how you make otherpeople feel that they are part
of the idea and part of thedecision making, um, and also
(20:56):
not like we've made the decision.
Do you have a comment?
No, um, how they can be part ofalready developing the decision
with you.
And so it's very much about, um,the personal growth of the
leader, um, the personality, theself-awareness, because
self-awareness means that youhave more choice in how you
(21:19):
behave inwardly and outwardly,and then the communication
skills and communication skillsbeing really communication skill
, like technically, how do I ummessage something in a clear way
?
Um, but that's only a smallhalf of it, and maybe the bigger
half is how do I connect, howdo I show empathy, how do I show
(21:47):
myself authentically so thatpeople can develop that trust?
So it's these elements ofleadership that I am certain
will be most important in thecoming years.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And I love that reference of AI because I think
there is a sense of a feararound that and AI taking over
and, as you talk about, it's notjust about the, you know, the
logic side of things, becausethere is that real, true
emotional connectedness that oneneeds to feel like, okay, I can
really, I can really trust thisperson or I can get behind this
(22:24):
idea or concept.
But I think people are reallygrappling with this AI and the
advancement.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And actually, as you go once more into AI, another
thought that comes to me is it'sreally just the distinction
between creativity andreactivity.
You know, with with ai, ifeveryone anyone who has worked
with with one of these ai toolsto create content or um think
(22:54):
about something is, we caneasily fall into the trap to
give the lead to a young, so toI don't have any idea about this
.
So, ai, please tell me.
And um, so that's a reactiveapproach, but I can remain in
creativity to first be acreative human being to say to
(23:17):
say, okay, what is the purpose,what do we want here and what
are maybe main parameters ofwhere we want to go, and then
maybe use a tool to really dothe implementation, but not
over-rely on AI to spoon-feed uswhat we are supposed to do.
And the other thing is also tomaintain our critical thinking
(23:40):
because, especially inleadership, we get maybe
propositions, whether it's fromfrom partners or staff or or ai,
and are we able still to take astep back and say, okay, I see
all this, but what do we reallywant and and where do we go
(24:00):
there, what are the priorities?
And not only react on what'scoming.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
As we wrap up, the one question I always love to
close with is if it were yourlast day on earth and you could
only impart one piece ofknowledge or advice with the
world of all the things you'velearned, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Feel the gratitude of life each moment and every day.
It makes such a difference.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Couldn't agree more, Sylvia, I would love for you to
share I'm going to put this inthe show notes, but I would love
for you to share your websitewhere people can find out more
about you, follow your content,even become a client if they
want to seek your services.
Where people can find out moreabout you, follow your content,
even become a client if theywant to seek your services.
Where can they find that?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So I'm on LinkedIn it's my main playground and you
can easily find me, sylviaRode-Liebina.
And then there is my website,which is smartpowermethodscom,
and there also you can find outmore about my work.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Swamped.
Well, like I said, we'll putthat in the show notes.
Savine, thank you so much forcoming on and just embarking
with them and sharing with myaudience.
I hope people pull up a cup ofcoffee and really lean in and
take notes.
I think the world there'salways the opportunity to get
better, and so I love whenpeople lean in to guests that I
have on to see ways in whichthey can do that.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Thank you so much, sonia, it's a huge pleasure.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Thank you so much for listening and for being here on
this journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know may need to
hear this message.
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
contact me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
(25:58):
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
(26:20):
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
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