June 24, 2025 • 28 mins
🎧 Episode 169: Stop Micromanaging, Start Leading — Building Unbreakable Trust & Navigating Tough Conversations with Ashley Cox (Part 2)Â
In Part 2, Sonnie and Ashley go beyond delegation—straight into the art (and science) of trust. This episode is packed with real talk about what it takes to build a team you can rely on, how to let go of micromanagement for good, and the not-so-obvious reason your toughest conversations are often the most powerful.
We explore:
- Ashley’s “Triangle of Trust” framework—and why most leaders get trust backwards
- How micromanagement destroys trust (and how to fix it)
- Why your fear of being outshined is holding everyone back
- How to balance compassion and assertiveness (even in hard conversations)
- “Help me understand…”: The 3 words that transform every difficult conversation
- Why your team’s “bad boss baggage” is sabotaging success (and what to do about it)
- The simple mindset shift that turns feedback into fuel for growth
- Why real leadership is about love, not control
🔑 Key takeaways:
- You hired smart people—now get out of their way
- Trust starts with YOU (and how you show up)
- Difficult conversations are a muscle—start training it now
- Compassion and assertiveness are not opposites; together, they’re unstoppable
đź’ˇ Quotes to remember:
“Love others. See the humanity in each other—it makes all the difference.”
đź“š Resources mentioned:
- Ashley Cox’s Empowered Leader Experience: https://ashleycox.co/
- Connect with Ashley on:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashley-cox-phr-shrm-cp-30565017/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashleycox.co/
A rising tide raises all ships, and I invite you along on this journey to Evoke Greatness!
Check out my website: www.evokegreatness.com
Follow me on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonnie-linebarger-899b9a52/
https://www.instagram.com/evoke.greatness/
https://www.tiktok.com/@evoke.greatness
http://www.youtube.com/@evokegreatness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:56):
Welcome back to part two of StopMicromanaging.
Start Leading with my guest,ashley Cox.
We're exposing the real reasonyour team isn't stepping up and
it's not what you think.
We unpack trust, toughconversations and how to finally
stop micromanaging withoutlosing control.
If you missed part one, makesure to go back to last week's
(02:16):
episode and catch all of themindset shifts and hard truths.
You need to break thebottleneck for good.
Now let's hop into part two.
You have a certain framework,probably a number of frameworks,
but you have a certainframework that you walk through,
called the triangle of trust.
If someone listening has a teammember that they desperately
(02:38):
want to trust, but something hashappened that has impeded that,
or they just can't seem to getthere, what is that first step
that they should take to reallymove that relationship forward,
to start building a foundationof trust?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, the triangle of trust is one of my most
favorite frameworks, so I lovethat we get to have this
conversation, because a team, ahigh performance team, a team
that you can trust and that youcan rely on and that you can
grow together with, has to startwith a foundation of trust, and
a lot of times that trust ishindered by us not trusting the
(03:21):
team that we hired in the firstplace, and sometimes that team,
you know, doesn't trust usbecause we haven't proven
ourselves to be trustworthy yet.
And the funny thing about trustis that some people give trust
first until it is broken.
I'm going to trust you untilyou give me a reason not to
trust you, while other peopleare like I'm not going to trust
(03:45):
you until you give me a reasonto trust you.
And so these two people oftenwork together, which is
unfortunate.
But one of the first stepsforward is realizing, as a
leader, you went throughprobably a pretty intensive
hiring process to select someoneto be an expert on your team,
(04:05):
and so we have to trustourselves that we vetted the
candidates appropriately, weasked the right questions, we
presented the job accurately,that they would actually be
doing, and that we made aquality decision, because we
went through these multiplesteps in order to say
congratulations, you've got thejob.
Because we went through thesemultiple steps in order to say
(04:27):
congratulations, you've got thejob, welcome to the team.
And so our trust really has tobegin there.
We have to trust ourselves inthat process so that we can say
okay, I've hired you to do thisreally important job.
I trust you to come into thisbusiness, to learn this business
, to ask the questions you needto ask and to do the job you
were hired to do.
And when we immediately approachsomeone who has just gotten
(04:51):
started and we're withholdinginformation, or we're not
letting go of things, or we'rechecking up behind them
constantly, or we'remicromanaging every task, or
we're requiring approval inevery single thing they do, or
requiring approval in everysingle thing they do, how
trustworthy do you think theyfeel?
Not very.
(05:15):
They don't feel trusted, and sothey're going to not act in
ways that will build yourconfidence because they're
scared to make a move.
Well, I better ask forpermission first, I better run
this by her first, I better gether feedback on this before I
hit send.
And so now they start acting ina way that you're like see, I
can't trust them.
They bring everything to me.
Well, we've created that, andso we have to be really mindful
(05:36):
of the way that we're showing upas leaders and how that is
either building trustworthinesswith your team or destroying it.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I'm curious.
There's a couple of things inthere that I want to pull the
thread on, one of which is thismicromanaging element, and
oftentimes that really doesdamage that relationship even
more so, or that may be thefracture of trust in the first
place, and so that piece, Ithink you know, can be driven by
a number of things.
But I almost like want to backup for the leader who may not
(06:11):
trust, who may be micromanaging,who may be stepping in areas
that they don't necessarily needto.
How much do you think that'sdriven by a sense of insecurity
or intimidation that anotherperson may outshine them?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think that's a great point, and it's a very
frequent point as well.
I know a lot of times, likeI'll hear, clients or people in
my audience will say well, Idon't know about hiring someone
and sharing this level ofinformation with them, because
what if they take all my ideasand then they leave and they
start their own business?
(06:50):
And I'm like, listen, we're avery small, odd percent of the
population who want to take onthe risk of owning a business.
Most people don't, most peopledon't, and so we have to be very
mindful of the way that we'rethinking about the people that
we're hiring.
And are there people who may dothat?
(07:10):
Sure, there is a rotten applein every bunch, right, but we
cannot run our entire businessesand our lives around suspecting
that every single person is outto get us, and so that
fear-based leadership isdefinitely one that leads to
feeling insecure, feelingintimidated, feeling like this
(07:31):
person's going to takeeverything you've worked so hard
for, and that's why we havelawyers and that's why we have
contracts, and that's why wehave, you know, employment
agreements and NDAs and thesethings that help protect us and
the work that we've worked sohard to build and create.
And there's we have to bereally, just really really
(07:55):
thinking through.
What is the possibility of thisoutcome?
I am all for let's sit down andthink worst case scenario.
As someone who's worked in HRand leadership development for
almost 20 years, I'm all aboutthat.
I love to have a riskmitigation plan.
I love to think through well,if this does happen, what am I
going to do?
What am I going to say?
How are we going to respond?
(08:15):
What are we going to react?
So if that exercise feelshelpful to say, okay, let's just
get really nitty gritty and layout all the details and say
what's the worst that couldpossibly happen, then you could
look at that and say, okay, howdo we plan for that?
And then we can move down theroad because now we know we've
planned for the worst possibleoutcome.
Anything else that comes ourway is easy peasy, right.
But I think intimidation andinsecurity definitely goes a
(08:39):
long way and that's part of thatself-growth of leadership.
You know, leadership is goingto make you check some of those
things and reflect on thosethings and if you're feeling
that insecure or you're feelingthat intimidated, that's a good
checkpoint for you to say, okay,do I need to talk to my coach?
(09:01):
Do I need to talk to mytherapist?
Do I need to process this orreflect on this or really
explore why I'm feeling this way?
And nine times out of 10, it'ssomething that you've
experienced in the past.
Almost every single leader I'veworked with has been burned at
some point or another ofsomething that has happened and
that has sparked that insecurityto a different level or a
(09:22):
different degree than maybe itused to exist.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, and if not dealt with right, the backpack
that we're carrying with all ofthose things in the past gets
insanely heavy and then that theweight of all that is wrapped
up in that spills out ontopeople around you.
And so I think you know it'swhen, when, if something
(09:47):
triggers someone to hear thisand feel a little defensive,
lean into that, like I couldn'tencourage that more.
There was a time in my lifewhere I really early on, I
wanted to be the star studentand it's funny to look at it now
, but I really like that'ssomething that I felt like
(10:08):
recognition was, was somethingthat kind of fed me.
And it wasn't until realizingthat when you light other, when
you can shine the light onothers like everyone wins, you
develop the trust.
It's not I leading, you know, Imean it really is the we
component of leading that willallow you to get the farthest,
(10:30):
the best outcomes.
And when we can kind of takethat spotlight off of ourselves
and say how can I build anenvironment where I can shine
the light on people around me,we can amplify them, we can
raise them up, we can stretchand grow them, because
ultimately that's like for thegood of all right, like,
everyone benefits out of it.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to be the smartest person
on my team.
If I'm the smartest person onmy team, I have not hired the
right people.
I need people to know how to dotechnology, because it is not
me, you know, and that's thething it's like.
If you are hiring for your team, it's always important to look
(11:09):
at who is the smartest person inthis that I could hand this off
to, because that's going toallow you to trust them and for
them to come in and to feeltrusted because they really are
the expert.
If I hired you to do this job,I don't need a whole lot of
input.
You know, here's the vision,here's the goal, here's the
direction that we're going.
How do we make that happen?
(11:30):
What's your input?
What is your like my right handwe make that happen.
What's your input?
My right hand, mara.
She is absolutely incredible.
She is everything opposite tome.
She is the tech to my non-tech.
She is the behind the scenes tomy I want to be on the mic, and
so when she was researching asoftware program a couple of
(11:51):
years ago, she brought it to meand she was like okay, you know,
we need this new programbecause there's a better way
that we could do this.
We could be more efficient.
X, y, z.
And I was like, okay, soundsgreat, she goes.
What level of input would youlike to have?
I was like this is good.
I was like like, put together aspreadsheet, maybe your top
three options, compare, contrast, like pros and cons, and show
(12:15):
me what our kind of our averagepricing is going to be.
That's helpful.
And then she, you know she putit together, she brought it to
me and she said, okay, these areour three options.
The price range is going to beabout this per month or this per
year.
Does that fall within ourbudget?
Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
You know which one do you thinkis going to be the best to meet
our needs?
I think this option, okay,great, let's do that.
(12:35):
I literally spent five minuteson this project, whereas I could
have gotten lost in the weedson this for six months, because
I didn't know what I was lookingfor, I didn't know what
programs were available.
I didn't number one.
I don't like to do that levelof detailed research on anything
technology related and so forher to use her superpower, she
(12:56):
had it done in like an hour andI would have probably meddled
around with it for six months orbetter and not made a decision,
and it would have created abottleneck and it would have
stopped us from implementing thesystem, which now, magically,
we click one button and lots offun things happen.
Nice, I like that for us.
I didn't have to do it, though.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, that's a beautiful example, though, of
how we can and working withsomeone who understands.
And they're asking thosequestions of hey, what input
would you like to have, whatinformation would you like to
have?
Because I can do all the work,I can do all the legwork, I can
capture it, I can paint thispicture for you so that you can
make the best, most informeddecision.
But let me get in the weeds andthen you let me know the
(13:40):
direction we want to go, andthat's a really great example as
to how we really should workwith one another.
You know, based on whateversomeone is hired for and it's
their expertise we're reallyhiring them for.
So why would we stand in theway and need to be the one to
say I need to feel like I havethis, you know all this
expertise, you know.
(14:00):
That's why you hired me Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Hire the brilliant people and then get out of their
way.
Yeah, that's pretty much it, sothat's a wrap.
Yeah, mic drop, yeah, mic drop.
We have done all we can heretoday, but it really is true,
and it's simple, but it's notalways easy, and that's the
hardest part.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes, you referenced something earlier the 14-day
week.
You've worked with leaders whohave transformed from working
14-day weeks or 80-hour weeks tohaving teams that they can
actually rely on, to having thatsense of really feeling like I
don't have to completely layface to the floor in everything
(14:45):
to be able to get things done.
What has to be true for that tohappen, and how can that create
ripples throughout someone'slife?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That's such a good question.
What has to be true is that weare building a business together
, that we are not building abusiness solo, and what used to
be a solo business now requiresa team, because you cannot carry
the weight of this incrediblething that you have built.
(15:19):
You have brought it to where itis and you get to be proud of
that and you get to wear that asa badge of honor and say I
built this seven-figure business.
I built this with nothing but awing and a prayer and a lot of
tenacity and a lot of latenights.
And yes, there are seasons inour businesses where we are
(15:42):
working long hours and we'refiguring things out, and
sometimes in the early days youhave more time than you have
money, and so you're not able toinvest in fancy software or
team members or things that aregoing to allow ease in your life
.
But when you get to that point,if you are still acting as a
solopreneur, you got it allbackwards, my friend, the truth
(16:04):
gets to be that you've broughtit this far and now we're going
to take it to the next level.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
You say that compassion andassertiveness can coexist, and I
think a lot of leaders strugglewith the balance of that.
What does this look like inpractice?
And the first thing that comesto my mind is difficult
conversations, right yeah, whereboth of those things have to be
present.
They have to be congruent there.
(16:34):
What's that look like, playedout?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah.
So first let me start with, Ilove talking about assertive
communication because so manypeople get it wrong.
So the opposite of assertiveisn't that you're going to be
wishy-washy, or the opposite ofassertive is that you are going
to be wishy-washy and passiveand docile and kind of a
doorstep.
But so many people think thatassertive means aggressive and
(17:02):
assertive doesn't meanaggressive.
Assertive means direct.
Assertive means making surethat you're respecting your
needs and your wants while alsorespecting the needs and wants
of other people in theconversation.
And so we can do that withloads of compassion.
And I think the best way toapproach that in any kind of
(17:22):
difficult conversation is alwayswith curiosity.
First, we have to start by notmaking assumptions out of line,
right Like you have to assumepositive intent.
Assume that this person wasn'ttrying to, you know, railroad
your business, steal your ideas,miss that deadline on purpose,
whatever it is.
Whatever the thing is thatyou're like, we have to have a
(17:44):
hard conversation about this.
First we have to walk in andsay, okay, I'm not going to
assume that they were doing thison purpose or with malintent.
Okay, got that.
Then I'm going to approach theconversation with curiosity.
That's how we maintaincompassion, because if we come
in and we say, justify why youdidn't meet this deadline, or
explain why this project is outof budget, or I demand to
(18:10):
understand what is going on here, we're automatically putting
people in the defensive andthose walls go up because it's
about self-preservation.
At on here, we're automaticallyputting people in the defensive
and those walls go up becauseit's about self-preservation.
At this point, you're like whoa, whoa, whoa.
You don't even know the wholestory yet and you come in here,
shame and blame, guns a blazing,and so we have to be thoughtful
about the way that we approachthese conversations.
(18:31):
So my favorite, favoritequestion and I always share this
everywhere I get theopportunity to is to say help me
understand.
Help me understand whathappened with the project.
Where did things go off therail?
Help me understand why wedidn't meet this deadline.
Help me understand why,whatever the situation is is
(18:52):
happening.
Because immediately it saysokay, I wanna be in on this.
Because when we're on thistogether, it's us against the
problem, it's not me against you, and that's what we often get
mixed up in.
When we're in a difficultconversation or we need to
address something that feelshard is that it feels like it's
me against you, the leader,against the employee, when it's
(19:14):
really the two of you againstthe problem.
And then, from what's thedifference between a reason and
an excuse?
And is there something thatgenuinely happened that caused
this outcome, this negativeoutcome that you weren't
anticipating or don't want to bedealing with?
Or you know now you're tryingto recover from?
(19:36):
And so I like to give theexample, the story of it's like
when you say you're going tostart running, I'm going to
start running and I'm going torun three days a week.
Start running, I'm going tostart running and I'm going to
run three days a week.
Okay, great, and I'm running,and I'm running, and I'm running
.
And then, like, week three getshere and you're like oh, I'm
tired, I don't want to run today.
Or oh, it's, you know, it'skind of rainy out, I don't want
to run in the drizzle.
That feels kind of gross.
(19:57):
And then on another week,somebody says well, how's your
running going?
And you're like well, you know,I've kind of been doing.
Okay, you know I've been tiredand the rain's been kind of
nasty, and it's been this, thatand the other.
Well, these are all excuses thatwe're making, right.
But if someone says, hey, whydidn't you go running today?
And you're like, oh my God,yesterday I fractured my ankle.
(20:19):
Like that's a legitimate reasonwhy you should not be out
running around.
You know you need time to healand to make sure that that bone
is sturdy again to be able torun on.
So our job in thoseconversations and those hard
conversations is to understandwhat's the reason.
If there is one, and if thereis an excuse, how do we support
that person so that they don'tfeel the need to make excuses
(20:41):
Like what roadblocks, whatcommunication, what challenges
maybe got in the way that ledthem to start feeling defensive,
to say, well, I was this and Iwas that, and it was this person
, it was that person.
And I'm playing the blame gameand pointing the finger and
shifting blame somewhere else.
And so, I think, difficultconversations.
I could be on that soapbox allday long, sunny, because I love
(21:02):
that topic.
So I'll stop there for now andlet you process some of that.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I think that is a muscle that, sadly, is not
formed or strong collectively.
In my experience, yes, I wouldagree.
I think there's always theopportunity to get better, but
it's like you have to desire towant to get better, and in order
to get better, you literallyhave to.
It's like building a muscle.
Right, you got to lift weights.
(21:30):
You can start out light, butyou've got to actually
consistently put in the reps tobe able to form that muscle,
because it's like role playing.
Everybody hates it.
It's the most uncomfortable,awkward thing ever and you can
get profoundly better as aresult.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It works so amazingly .
It really does.
It does.
And so that's why I always tellpeople don't wait for the big,
hard conversations to come.
Don't wait for a terminationconversation to be the first
hard conversation you've everhad, because that's going to
emotionally dysregulate you anddrain you in ways you can't even
imagine.
(22:08):
Start with the small things,like a lot of times, what I see
women doing is well, I don'twant to address that because I
don't want to be nitpicky.
No, but you'll micromanageevery single part of the project
over here.
Okay, well, that's fine.
Or they'll say well, I don'twant to be mean, it's not being
mean.
This person signed on for thisjob and they agreed to do these
tasks.
(22:28):
And when that doesn't happen,it's our responsibility to say
hey, help me understand what'sgoing on here.
Is there a tool you need?
Is there training that you need?
Is there support I couldprovide?
Where did maybe I miss a pieceof the puzzle?
And that's the way that we learnand we get better, and it's the
way that we help our team getbetter, because a lot of times
(22:49):
we also have to remember whereare these people coming from and
what bad boss baggage are theybringing with them, and that's
something we don't talk enoughabout.
We don't talk about the personcoming in doesn't just start
afresh today with no pasthistory.
They have bad boss baggage, theyhave traumatic work
environments, they haveexperienced toxic work
(23:11):
environments where they wereberated for the smallest things
and so maybe they were scared tocome to you because they
thought you might act the sameway.
So when you do come in andyou're like why did you do this
and what happened?
And you're elevated and you'relike why did you do this and
what happened?
And you're elevated and you'reemotionally dysregulated and
you're not able to maintain yourcomposure to find out really
what the root cause is, that'sgoing to trigger a trauma
(23:33):
response in them or some sort ofresponse in them that is based
off of that past history wherethey immediately put those
defenses up.
And so we always have to bethinking about like this is a
whole human being sitting infront of us and they have lived
experience outside of therelationship we might have with
them or the time that we'vespent with them, and they're not
always gonna act in the waythat you would want for them to
(23:55):
act because of those things thathave happened.
But if you can be patient, youcan be compassionate and you can
be curious.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
You can really forge incredible trust and bonds and
loyalty that can't be broken theopportunity to grow by way of
not having an honestconversation with them or, you
know, sharing crucial feedbackthat is wrapping them up, the
(24:29):
opportunity to grow.
And when I frame it like that,I'm so compelled to make sure
that I have the conversationthat it's.
I can't not, and so I wouldchallenge people to tap into
your value system when it comesto that.
Like what are you unwilling,like I am unwilling to not allow
that person to grow?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, yeah.
And people can't improve ifthey don't know what they need
to improve in.
So if you only do a performancereview or conversation once a
year, number one, nobody's goingto remember what happened eight
months ago, six months ago,three weeks ago.
And number two, they're notgoing to have an entire year to
(25:07):
be able to correct that and togrow and to improve, and so now
we've set them back a whole yearin their career.
That's not fair, and so Ialways like to reframe it as,
like you know, this is beinghelpful, not harmful.
I'm not being mean, I'm beingsupportive, and that's my role.
And it may feel uncomfortableto you Guess what?
It feels really uncomfortableto them.
(25:28):
And so, also, knowing thatyou're coming into this
conversation that neither one ofyou really want to have, but
you can have in a respectful,appropriate, supportive way,
Well, I can't believe we'vealready been talking for as long
as we have and I could honestlytalk.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I think both of us could probably talk on these
topics for so much longer.
As we wrap up, I have onequestion that I love to ask, and
it is if it were your lastdowner, and of all you've
learned and all you haveabsorbed from a lesson
perspective, and you could onlyimpart one piece of guidance or
advice to the world, what wouldthat be?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
This is going to sound so simple, but just love
others.
Just love others.
I think we have enough hate anddivisiveness and cruelty, and
if we could just see thehumanity in each other, I'm
going to get emotional.
It would make all the world ofdifference.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I'm going to get emotional.
It would make all the world ofdifference, kindness and love go
a really, really long way associal innovators.
Yeah Well, ashley, thank you so, so much for joining.
I have had an absolute blastand I think we're so aligned in
the way we think that we couldtalk forever about this.
I would love for you to sharewith the audience.
(26:43):
This will all be in the shownotes, but where can they find
you?
Where can they check out yourpodcast?
Where can they connect with you?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes, thank you so much for having me again today,
sunny.
It's been an honor to be hereand to have such a powerful
conversation.
I hope everyone walks awayfeeling inspired maybe toes are
stepped on a little bit butencourages you to reflect on how
do we grow individually and howdo we grow together.
So you can connect with me atashleycoxco on my website,
(27:11):
facebook, instagram and thenover on LinkedIn.
I'm Ashley N Cox, so I knowthat we will have those links in
the show notes and I would loveto continue the conversation
there.
So please come over, say hi andtell me where your toes got
stepped on today.
I'd love to know.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yes, yes, ashley, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you comingon and sharing your area of
expertise, and I think peopleare going to get a lot out of
this.
Thank you so much for listeningand for being here on this
journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
(27:49):
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know may need to
hear this message.
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
contact me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
(28:10):
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
(28:31):
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
Welcome to Evoke Greatness.
We are officially entering yearthree of this podcast and I am
filled with so much gratitudefor each and every one of you
who've joined me on thisincredible journey of growth and
self-discovery.
I'm Sunny, your host and fellowtraveler on this path of
personal evolution.
This podcast is a sanctuary forthe curious, the ambitious and
(00:28):
the introspective.
It's for those of you who, likeme, are captivated by the
champion mindset and driven byan insatiable hunger for growth
and knowledge.
Whether you're just beginningyour journey or you're well
along your path, you're going tofind stories here that resonate
with your experiences andaspirations.
Over the last two years, we'veshared countless stories of
triumph and challenge, ofresilience and transformation.
(00:51):
We've laughed, we've reflectedand we've grown together.
And as we've evolved, so toohas this podcast.
Remember, no matter whatchapter you're on in your own
story, you belong here.
This community we've builttogether is a place of support,
inspiration and shared growth.
Where intention goes, energyflows, and the energy you bring
(01:13):
to this space elevates us all.
So, whether you're listeningwhile commuting, working out or
enjoying your morning coffee,perhaps from one of those
motivational mugs I'm so fond of, know that you're a part of
something special.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your curiosity,your openness and your
commitment to personal growth.
As we embark on year three, Iinvite you to lean in, to listen
(01:36):
deeply and to let these storiesresonate with your soul.
I believe that a rising tideraises all ships and I invite
you along in this journey toevoke greatness.
(01:56):
Welcome back to part two of StopMicromanaging.
Start Leading with my guest,ashley Cox.
We're exposing the real reasonyour team isn't stepping up and
it's not what you think.
We unpack trust, toughconversations and how to finally
stop micromanaging withoutlosing control.
If you missed part one, makesure to go back to last week's
(02:16):
episode and catch all of themindset shifts and hard truths.
You need to break thebottleneck for good.
Now let's hop into part two.
You have a certain framework,probably a number of frameworks,
but you have a certainframework that you walk through,
called the triangle of trust.
If someone listening has a teammember that they desperately
(02:38):
want to trust, but something hashappened that has impeded that,
or they just can't seem to getthere, what is that first step
that they should take to reallymove that relationship forward,
to start building a foundationof trust?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, the triangle of trust is one of my most
favorite frameworks, so I lovethat we get to have this
conversation, because a team, ahigh performance team, a team
that you can trust and that youcan rely on and that you can
grow together with, has to startwith a foundation of trust, and
a lot of times that trust ishindered by us not trusting the
(03:21):
team that we hired in the firstplace, and sometimes that team,
you know, doesn't trust usbecause we haven't proven
ourselves to be trustworthy yet.
And the funny thing about trustis that some people give trust
first until it is broken.
I'm going to trust you untilyou give me a reason not to
trust you, while other peopleare like I'm not going to trust
(03:45):
you until you give me a reasonto trust you.
And so these two people oftenwork together, which is
unfortunate.
But one of the first stepsforward is realizing, as a
leader, you went throughprobably a pretty intensive
hiring process to select someoneto be an expert on your team,
(04:05):
and so we have to trustourselves that we vetted the
candidates appropriately, weasked the right questions, we
presented the job accurately,that they would actually be
doing, and that we made aquality decision, because we
went through these multiplesteps in order to say
congratulations, you've got thejob.
Because we went through thesemultiple steps in order to say
(04:27):
congratulations, you've got thejob, welcome to the team.
And so our trust really has tobegin there.
We have to trust ourselves inthat process so that we can say
okay, I've hired you to do thisreally important job.
I trust you to come into thisbusiness, to learn this business
, to ask the questions you needto ask and to do the job you
were hired to do.
And when we immediately approachsomeone who has just gotten
(04:51):
started and we're withholdinginformation, or we're not
letting go of things, or we'rechecking up behind them
constantly, or we'remicromanaging every task, or
we're requiring approval inevery single thing they do, or
requiring approval in everysingle thing they do, how
trustworthy do you think theyfeel?
Not very.
(05:15):
They don't feel trusted, and sothey're going to not act in
ways that will build yourconfidence because they're
scared to make a move.
Well, I better ask forpermission first, I better run
this by her first, I better gether feedback on this before I
hit send.
And so now they start acting ina way that you're like see, I
can't trust them.
They bring everything to me.
Well, we've created that, andso we have to be really mindful
(05:36):
of the way that we're showing upas leaders and how that is
either building trustworthinesswith your team or destroying it.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I'm curious.
There's a couple of things inthere that I want to pull the
thread on, one of which is thismicromanaging element, and
oftentimes that really doesdamage that relationship even
more so, or that may be thefracture of trust in the first
place, and so that piece, Ithink you know, can be driven by
a number of things.
But I almost like want to backup for the leader who may not
(06:11):
trust, who may be micromanaging,who may be stepping in areas
that they don't necessarily needto.
How much do you think that'sdriven by a sense of insecurity
or intimidation that anotherperson may outshine them?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think that's a great point, and it's a very
frequent point as well.
I know a lot of times, likeI'll hear, clients or people in
my audience will say well, Idon't know about hiring someone
and sharing this level ofinformation with them, because
what if they take all my ideasand then they leave and they
start their own business?
(06:50):
And I'm like, listen, we're avery small, odd percent of the
population who want to take onthe risk of owning a business.
Most people don't, most peopledon't, and so we have to be very
mindful of the way that we'rethinking about the people that
we're hiring.
And are there people who may dothat?
(07:10):
Sure, there is a rotten applein every bunch, right, but we
cannot run our entire businessesand our lives around suspecting
that every single person is outto get us, and so that
fear-based leadership isdefinitely one that leads to
feeling insecure, feelingintimidated, feeling like this
(07:31):
person's going to takeeverything you've worked so hard
for, and that's why we havelawyers and that's why we have
contracts, and that's why wehave, you know, employment
agreements and NDAs and thesethings that help protect us and
the work that we've worked sohard to build and create.
And there's we have to bereally, just really really
(07:55):
thinking through.
What is the possibility of thisoutcome?
I am all for let's sit down andthink worst case scenario.
As someone who's worked in HRand leadership development for
almost 20 years, I'm all aboutthat.
I love to have a riskmitigation plan.
I love to think through well,if this does happen, what am I
going to do?
What am I going to say?
How are we going to respond?
(08:15):
What are we going to react?
So if that exercise feelshelpful to say, okay, let's just
get really nitty gritty and layout all the details and say
what's the worst that couldpossibly happen, then you could
look at that and say, okay, howdo we plan for that?
And then we can move down theroad because now we know we've
planned for the worst possibleoutcome.
Anything else that comes ourway is easy peasy, right.
But I think intimidation andinsecurity definitely goes a
(08:39):
long way and that's part of thatself-growth of leadership.
You know, leadership is goingto make you check some of those
things and reflect on thosethings and if you're feeling
that insecure or you're feelingthat intimidated, that's a good
checkpoint for you to say, okay,do I need to talk to my coach?
(09:01):
Do I need to talk to mytherapist?
Do I need to process this orreflect on this or really
explore why I'm feeling this way?
And nine times out of 10, it'ssomething that you've
experienced in the past.
Almost every single leader I'veworked with has been burned at
some point or another ofsomething that has happened and
that has sparked that insecurityto a different level or a
(09:22):
different degree than maybe itused to exist.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, and if not dealt with right, the backpack
that we're carrying with all ofthose things in the past gets
insanely heavy and then that theweight of all that is wrapped
up in that spills out ontopeople around you.
And so I think you know it'swhen, when, if something
(09:47):
triggers someone to hear thisand feel a little defensive,
lean into that, like I couldn'tencourage that more.
There was a time in my lifewhere I really early on, I
wanted to be the star studentand it's funny to look at it now
, but I really like that'ssomething that I felt like
(10:08):
recognition was, was somethingthat kind of fed me.
And it wasn't until realizingthat when you light other, when
you can shine the light onothers like everyone wins, you
develop the trust.
It's not I leading, you know, Imean it really is the we
component of leading that willallow you to get the farthest,
(10:30):
the best outcomes.
And when we can kind of takethat spotlight off of ourselves
and say how can I build anenvironment where I can shine
the light on people around me,we can amplify them, we can
raise them up, we can stretchand grow them, because
ultimately that's like for thegood of all right, like,
everyone benefits out of it.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to be the smartest person
on my team.
If I'm the smartest person onmy team, I have not hired the
right people.
I need people to know how to dotechnology, because it is not
me, you know, and that's thething it's like.
If you are hiring for your team, it's always important to look
(11:09):
at who is the smartest person inthis that I could hand this off
to, because that's going toallow you to trust them and for
them to come in and to feeltrusted because they really are
the expert.
If I hired you to do this job,I don't need a whole lot of
input.
You know, here's the vision,here's the goal, here's the
direction that we're going.
How do we make that happen?
(11:30):
What's your input?
What is your like my right handwe make that happen.
What's your input?
My right hand, mara.
She is absolutely incredible.
She is everything opposite tome.
She is the tech to my non-tech.
She is the behind the scenes tomy I want to be on the mic, and
so when she was researching asoftware program a couple of
(11:51):
years ago, she brought it to meand she was like okay, you know,
we need this new programbecause there's a better way
that we could do this.
We could be more efficient.
X, y, z.
And I was like, okay, soundsgreat, she goes.
What level of input would youlike to have?
I was like this is good.
I was like like, put together aspreadsheet, maybe your top
three options, compare, contrast, like pros and cons, and show
(12:15):
me what our kind of our averagepricing is going to be.
That's helpful.
And then she, you know she putit together, she brought it to
me and she said, okay, these areour three options.
The price range is going to beabout this per month or this per
year.
Does that fall within ourbudget?
Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
You know which one do you thinkis going to be the best to meet
our needs?
I think this option, okay,great, let's do that.
(12:35):
I literally spent five minuteson this project, whereas I could
have gotten lost in the weedson this for six months, because
I didn't know what I was lookingfor, I didn't know what
programs were available.
I didn't number one.
I don't like to do that levelof detailed research on anything
technology related and so forher to use her superpower, she
(12:56):
had it done in like an hour andI would have probably meddled
around with it for six months orbetter and not made a decision,
and it would have created abottleneck and it would have
stopped us from implementing thesystem, which now, magically,
we click one button and lots offun things happen.
Nice, I like that for us.
I didn't have to do it, though.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, that's a beautiful example, though, of
how we can and working withsomeone who understands.
And they're asking thosequestions of hey, what input
would you like to have, whatinformation would you like to
have?
Because I can do all the work,I can do all the legwork, I can
capture it, I can paint thispicture for you so that you can
make the best, most informeddecision.
But let me get in the weeds andthen you let me know the
(13:40):
direction we want to go, andthat's a really great example as
to how we really should workwith one another.
You know, based on whateversomeone is hired for and it's
their expertise we're reallyhiring them for.
So why would we stand in theway and need to be the one to
say I need to feel like I havethis, you know all this
expertise, you know.
(14:00):
That's why you hired me Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Hire the brilliant people and then get out of their
way.
Yeah, that's pretty much it, sothat's a wrap.
Yeah, mic drop, yeah, mic drop.
We have done all we can heretoday, but it really is true,
and it's simple, but it's notalways easy, and that's the
hardest part.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes, you referenced something earlier the 14-day
week.
You've worked with leaders whohave transformed from working
14-day weeks or 80-hour weeks tohaving teams that they can
actually rely on, to having thatsense of really feeling like I
don't have to completely layface to the floor in everything
(14:45):
to be able to get things done.
What has to be true for that tohappen, and how can that create
ripples throughout someone'slife?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That's such a good question.
What has to be true is that weare building a business together
, that we are not building abusiness solo, and what used to
be a solo business now requiresa team, because you cannot carry
the weight of this incrediblething that you have built.
(15:19):
You have brought it to where itis and you get to be proud of
that and you get to wear that asa badge of honor and say I
built this seven-figure business.
I built this with nothing but awing and a prayer and a lot of
tenacity and a lot of latenights.
And yes, there are seasons inour businesses where we are
(15:42):
working long hours and we'refiguring things out, and
sometimes in the early days youhave more time than you have
money, and so you're not able toinvest in fancy software or
team members or things that aregoing to allow ease in your life
.
But when you get to that point,if you are still acting as a
solopreneur, you got it allbackwards, my friend, the truth
(16:04):
gets to be that you've broughtit this far and now we're going
to take it to the next level.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
You say that compassion andassertiveness can coexist, and I
think a lot of leaders strugglewith the balance of that.
What does this look like inpractice?
And the first thing that comesto my mind is difficult
conversations, right yeah, whereboth of those things have to be
present.
They have to be congruent there.
(16:34):
What's that look like, playedout?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah.
So first let me start with, Ilove talking about assertive
communication because so manypeople get it wrong.
So the opposite of assertiveisn't that you're going to be
wishy-washy, or the opposite ofassertive is that you are going
to be wishy-washy and passiveand docile and kind of a
doorstep.
But so many people think thatassertive means aggressive and
(17:02):
assertive doesn't meanaggressive.
Assertive means direct.
Assertive means making surethat you're respecting your
needs and your wants while alsorespecting the needs and wants
of other people in theconversation.
And so we can do that withloads of compassion.
And I think the best way toapproach that in any kind of
(17:22):
difficult conversation is alwayswith curiosity.
First, we have to start by notmaking assumptions out of line,
right Like you have to assumepositive intent.
Assume that this person wasn'ttrying to, you know, railroad
your business, steal your ideas,miss that deadline on purpose,
whatever it is.
Whatever the thing is thatyou're like, we have to have a
(17:44):
hard conversation about this.
First we have to walk in andsay, okay, I'm not going to
assume that they were doing thison purpose or with malintent.
Okay, got that.
Then I'm going to approach theconversation with curiosity.
That's how we maintaincompassion, because if we come
in and we say, justify why youdidn't meet this deadline, or
explain why this project is outof budget, or I demand to
(18:10):
understand what is going on here, we're automatically putting
people in the defensive andthose walls go up because it's
about self-preservation.
At on here, we're automaticallyputting people in the defensive
and those walls go up becauseit's about self-preservation.
At this point, you're like whoa, whoa, whoa.
You don't even know the wholestory yet and you come in here,
shame and blame, guns a blazing,and so we have to be thoughtful
about the way that we approachthese conversations.
(18:31):
So my favorite, favoritequestion and I always share this
everywhere I get theopportunity to is to say help me
understand.
Help me understand whathappened with the project.
Where did things go off therail?
Help me understand why wedidn't meet this deadline.
Help me understand why,whatever the situation is is
(18:52):
happening.
Because immediately it saysokay, I wanna be in on this.
Because when we're on thistogether, it's us against the
problem, it's not me against you, and that's what we often get
mixed up in.
When we're in a difficultconversation or we need to
address something that feelshard is that it feels like it's
me against you, the leader,against the employee, when it's
(19:14):
really the two of you againstthe problem.
And then, from what's thedifference between a reason and
an excuse?
And is there something thatgenuinely happened that caused
this outcome, this negativeoutcome that you weren't
anticipating or don't want to bedealing with?
Or you know now you're tryingto recover from?
(19:36):
And so I like to give theexample, the story of it's like
when you say you're going tostart running, I'm going to
start running and I'm going torun three days a week.
Start running, I'm going tostart running and I'm going to
run three days a week.
Okay, great, and I'm running,and I'm running, and I'm running
.
And then, like, week three getshere and you're like oh, I'm
tired, I don't want to run today.
Or oh, it's, you know, it'skind of rainy out, I don't want
to run in the drizzle.
That feels kind of gross.
(19:57):
And then on another week,somebody says well, how's your
running going?
And you're like well, you know,I've kind of been doing.
Okay, you know I've been tiredand the rain's been kind of
nasty, and it's been this, thatand the other.
Well, these are all excuses thatwe're making, right.
But if someone says, hey, whydidn't you go running today?
And you're like, oh my God,yesterday I fractured my ankle.
(20:19):
Like that's a legitimate reasonwhy you should not be out
running around.
You know you need time to healand to make sure that that bone
is sturdy again to be able torun on.
So our job in thoseconversations and those hard
conversations is to understandwhat's the reason.
If there is one, and if thereis an excuse, how do we support
that person so that they don'tfeel the need to make excuses
(20:41):
Like what roadblocks, whatcommunication, what challenges
maybe got in the way that ledthem to start feeling defensive,
to say, well, I was this and Iwas that, and it was this person
, it was that person.
And I'm playing the blame gameand pointing the finger and
shifting blame somewhere else.
And so, I think, difficultconversations.
I could be on that soapbox allday long, sunny, because I love
(21:02):
that topic.
So I'll stop there for now andlet you process some of that.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I think that is a muscle that, sadly, is not
formed or strong collectively.
In my experience, yes, I wouldagree.
I think there's always theopportunity to get better, but
it's like you have to desire towant to get better, and in order
to get better, you literallyhave to.
It's like building a muscle.
Right, you got to lift weights.
(21:30):
You can start out light, butyou've got to actually
consistently put in the reps tobe able to form that muscle,
because it's like role playing.
Everybody hates it.
It's the most uncomfortable,awkward thing ever and you can
get profoundly better as aresult.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It works so amazingly .
It really does.
It does.
And so that's why I always tellpeople don't wait for the big,
hard conversations to come.
Don't wait for a terminationconversation to be the first
hard conversation you've everhad, because that's going to
emotionally dysregulate you anddrain you in ways you can't even
imagine.
(22:08):
Start with the small things,like a lot of times, what I see
women doing is well, I don'twant to address that because I
don't want to be nitpicky.
No, but you'll micromanageevery single part of the project
over here.
Okay, well, that's fine.
Or they'll say well, I don'twant to be mean, it's not being
mean.
This person signed on for thisjob and they agreed to do these
tasks.
(22:28):
And when that doesn't happen,it's our responsibility to say
hey, help me understand what'sgoing on here.
Is there a tool you need?
Is there training that you need?
Is there support I couldprovide?
Where did maybe I miss a pieceof the puzzle?
And that's the way that we learnand we get better, and it's the
way that we help our team getbetter, because a lot of times
(22:49):
we also have to remember whereare these people coming from and
what bad boss baggage are theybringing with them, and that's
something we don't talk enoughabout.
We don't talk about the personcoming in doesn't just start
afresh today with no pasthistory.
They have bad boss baggage, theyhave traumatic work
environments, they haveexperienced toxic work
(23:11):
environments where they wereberated for the smallest things
and so maybe they were scared tocome to you because they
thought you might act the sameway.
So when you do come in andyou're like why did you do this
and what happened?
And you're elevated and you'relike why did you do this and
what happened?
And you're elevated and you'reemotionally dysregulated and
you're not able to maintain yourcomposure to find out really
what the root cause is, that'sgoing to trigger a trauma
(23:33):
response in them or some sort ofresponse in them that is based
off of that past history wherethey immediately put those
defenses up.
And so we always have to bethinking about like this is a
whole human being sitting infront of us and they have lived
experience outside of therelationship we might have with
them or the time that we'vespent with them, and they're not
always gonna act in the waythat you would want for them to
(23:55):
act because of those things thathave happened.
But if you can be patient, youcan be compassionate and you can
be curious.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
You can really forge incredible trust and bonds and
loyalty that can't be broken theopportunity to grow by way of
not having an honestconversation with them or, you
know, sharing crucial feedbackthat is wrapping them up, the
(24:29):
opportunity to grow.
And when I frame it like that,I'm so compelled to make sure
that I have the conversationthat it's.
I can't not, and so I wouldchallenge people to tap into
your value system when it comesto that.
Like what are you unwilling,like I am unwilling to not allow
that person to grow?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, yeah.
And people can't improve ifthey don't know what they need
to improve in.
So if you only do a performancereview or conversation once a
year, number one, nobody's goingto remember what happened eight
months ago, six months ago,three weeks ago.
And number two, they're notgoing to have an entire year to
(25:07):
be able to correct that and togrow and to improve, and so now
we've set them back a whole yearin their career.
That's not fair, and so Ialways like to reframe it as,
like you know, this is beinghelpful, not harmful.
I'm not being mean, I'm beingsupportive, and that's my role.
And it may feel uncomfortableto you Guess what?
It feels really uncomfortableto them.
(25:28):
And so, also, knowing thatyou're coming into this
conversation that neither one ofyou really want to have, but
you can have in a respectful,appropriate, supportive way,
Well, I can't believe we'vealready been talking for as long
as we have and I could honestlytalk.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I think both of us could probably talk on these
topics for so much longer.
As we wrap up, I have onequestion that I love to ask, and
it is if it were your lastdowner, and of all you've
learned and all you haveabsorbed from a lesson
perspective, and you could onlyimpart one piece of guidance or
advice to the world, what wouldthat be?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
This is going to sound so simple, but just love
others.
Just love others.
I think we have enough hate anddivisiveness and cruelty, and
if we could just see thehumanity in each other, I'm
going to get emotional.
It would make all the world ofdifference.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I'm going to get emotional.
It would make all the world ofdifference, kindness and love go
a really, really long way associal innovators.
Yeah Well, ashley, thank you so, so much for joining.
I have had an absolute blastand I think we're so aligned in
the way we think that we couldtalk forever about this.
I would love for you to sharewith the audience.
(26:43):
This will all be in the shownotes, but where can they find
you?
Where can they check out yourpodcast?
Where can they connect with you?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes, thank you so much for having me again today,
sunny.
It's been an honor to be hereand to have such a powerful
conversation.
I hope everyone walks awayfeeling inspired maybe toes are
stepped on a little bit butencourages you to reflect on how
do we grow individually and howdo we grow together.
So you can connect with me atashleycoxco on my website,
(27:11):
facebook, instagram and thenover on LinkedIn.
I'm Ashley N Cox, so I knowthat we will have those links in
the show notes and I would loveto continue the conversation
there.
So please come over, say hi andtell me where your toes got
stepped on today.
I'd love to know.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yes, yes, ashley, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you comingon and sharing your area of
expertise, and I think peopleare going to get a lot out of
this.
Thank you so much for listeningand for being here on this
journey with me.
I hope you'll stick around Ifyou liked this episode.
(27:49):
It would mean the world for meif you would rate and review the
podcast or share it withsomeone you know may need to
hear this message.
I love to hear from you all andwant you to know that you can
leave me a voicemail directly.
If you go to my website,evokegreatnesscom, and go to the
contact me tab, you'll just hitthe big old orange button and
record your message.
I love the feedback andcomments that I've been getting,
so please keep them coming.
(28:10):
I'll leave you with the wisewords of author Robin Sharma
Greatness comes by doing a fewsmall and smart things each and
every day.
It comes from taking littlesteps consistently.
It comes from making a fewsmall chips against everything
in your professional andpersonal life that is ordinary,
(28:31):
so that a day eventually arriveswhen all that's left is the
extraordinary.
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