January 13, 2023 • 33 mins
Join Suzan and NYU's Anne Weisberg as they discuss inclusive leadership, and how we can retain and advance talent inclusively.
January 2023
ExecU Podcast
Episode 12: Inclusive Leadership, Anne Weisberg, NYU
BRIEF SUMMARY OF EPISODE
Anne Weisberg designs strategies that foster high performing, inclusive workplaces that deliver on the “S” in ESG. Her private sector experience has focused on talent strategies with a gender lens.
Most recently, Anne was the Women’s Initiative Director at the law firm Paul, Weiss, where she delivered a 40% increase in the number of women associates and created a Women’s Network that has 90% participation. At BlackRock, Anne created an award-winning women’s leadership program that is the subject of a Harvard Business School case study. She joined BlackRock from Deloitte, where she co-authored Mass Career Customization: Aligning the Workplace to Today’s Nontraditional Workforce (Harvard Business Press, 2007) that coined the phrase “corporate lattice.”
Anne is a recognized thought leader on inclusive workplaces. She was asked to write the New York Times op-ed titled “The Workplace Culture That Flying Nannies Won’t Fix” about workplace culture and as a young mother, she co-authored Everything a Working Mother Needs to Know (Doubleday, 1994).
Make sure to subscribe to the ExecU Podcast to learn from the most forward-thinking business professors about how to build a better future.
KEY TAKEAWAY
Anne: “It's very important when you're doing leadership development programs for specific groups within your organization, that they don't feel like it's remedial, and that it's not perceived as like something is wrong with these people that we need to fix, but rather, we're investing in these people because it's good for our business.”
ADDITIONAL LINKS
Share the podcast: https://execupodcast.buzzsprout.com/share
Anne’s LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anneweisberg/
Take Anne’s Inclusive Leadership Course on March 27+28, 2023:
https://execed.stern.nyu.edu/products/inclusive-leadership-a-competitive-advantage
Sponsored by Viv Higher Ed:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anne (00:00):
it's very important when you're doing leadership
development programs forspecific groups within your
organization that they don'tfeel like it's remedial and that
it's not perceived as likesomething is wrong with these
people that we need to fix, butrather.
We're investing in these peoplecuz it's, it's good for our
business.
(00:23):
welcome to Executive thepodcast, bringing you actionable
insights with faculty membersfrom the world's top business
schools.
I'm your host, Suzanne Brinker.
Today I'm excited to share aconversation with Anne Weisberg,
who is at NYU Stern School ofManagement, and she will be
talking with us about inclusiveleadership.
Suzan (00:41):
hello Ann.
Welcome to Exec the podcast.
How are you today?
Anne (00:45):
I'm great.
Thank you so much for having me.
We are honored
Suzan (00:49):
to have.
You would love to get started byjust hearing about your journey
into studying talent strategieswith the gender lens and how you
ended up at NYU Stern.
Anne (00:58):
Okay.
Well, for me, the personal isprofessional.
I was pregnant my last semesterof Harvard Law School, and so I
entered the workplace as a newworking mom.
That experience led me to writemy first book which was
everything a working motherneeds to know, which came out in
(01:21):
1994.
And that really changed thecourse of my career.
I had been practicing law upuntil then, But after that book
came out, I realized like thereis an opportunity to make
workplaces more inclusive.
And so I devoted my career todesigning workplace strategies
that foster inclusive cultureswhere everyone could thrive.
(01:42):
And it's not just because.
I wanted those cultures formyself.
It's because the research isclear that inclusive cultures
are more high performing.
They have lower turnover, andthey lead to more innovation.
And in fact, just one data pointfrom Gartner's HR research that
(02:03):
came out at the end of lastyear, employees that feel that
their workplaces are fair.
And equitable are 26% more highperforming than those who don't
and are 27% less likely to quitI, I call that the equity
(02:25):
dividend because honestly, thosenumbers are huge and it doesn't
cost that much to get there.
It's really more.
A mindset shift, a leadershipshift.
And that's what led me to Stern,to tell you the truth, because
in my experience frontlinemanagers were really the key to
whether people experience theirworkplace culture as inclusive
(02:47):
or not.
And in fact several years ago,McKenzie which does an annual
work, women in the workplacereport, Coined a new term called
the broken Rung to reference oridentify this issue that
frontline managers really arethe key to whether a diverse
workforce is advanced in anyorganization.
(03:11):
And unfortunately, frontlinemanagers don't get a lot of
training or, skill developmentaround how to do.
And so I approached NYU Sternand about eight years ago, and I
said, I think this could reallymake a difference.
I think you know, the futurebusiness leaders that you're,
(03:31):
that you are educating shouldlearn how to do this, should
learn how to lead inclusivelyand Stern was totally on board
and I've been teaching thereever.
Suzan (03:40):
Very, very cool.
And I'm assuming in 1994 thebook that you published was more
unique, in the assertions thatit made, but it's still really
relevant today, isn't it?
We haven't quite arrived at aplace where every workplace is
inclusive and equitable.
Anne (03:58):
No, it's a journey for any organization.
And.
It's aspirational but thatdoesn't mean it's not
achievable.
Suzan (04:07):
Can you maybe tell a story about an organization
you've worked with recently thatwanted to become more inclusive
and what they changed and whatresults they saw?
Anne (04:18):
Having an inclusive culture is both good for your
people and good for business.
And I wanna share a story aboutthat.
It, it's actually goes back tomy days leading the women's
initiative at Deloitte.
When I first got to Deloitte themission of the Women's
Initiative was to drivemarketplace growth and create a
culture where the best choose tobe.
(04:40):
And interesting that drivemarketplace growth was first.
And so, like when I got there,the challenge was how we gonna
deliver on that mission And sowe began by just surveying the
partners who were, majoritywhite men.
And ask them, have you sold to awoman in the last two years?
And if so, do you think womenbuy differently from men?
(05:03):
And um, it turned out that over90% of the partners had sold
Deloitte services to a woman.
And this was over 10 years agoago.
You know, Over 90% of thepartners had sold to a woman.
The woman had been the buyer ofDeloitte services, and everybody
said, yes, I do think women buydifferently from men, but I'm
(05:25):
not sure what that means.
So we developed a, a curriculum,a four hour workshop for
partners on how to sell towomen.
And it was mostly for.
The male partners because atthat time it was about 75% of
the partnership.
we took about 500 partnersthrough that before I left
(05:46):
Deloitte, and they collectivelyreported 750 million of new
business from that.
Uh, so, um,
Suzan (05:55):
that's, do you fell differently to a woman now?
I'm curious
Anne (06:00):
It was very simple things.
Part of it was how.
you pitched Deloitte services?
Honestly the pitch teams hadbeen trained to always try to
bring the most senior person toa meeting especially if it was a
very big potential client.
So they would try to get on theCEO's calendar or somebody like
(06:21):
that.
And the women clients said, Lovemeeting the ceo.
Really nice guy or gal Butunless that person's working on
my stuff, I don't really care.
I wanna meet the team.
They're much more interested inmeeting the team and knowing
what, what did, what was theteam makeup, who was gonna do
what, and getting to know the.
(06:42):
And so that really changed theway pitches were designed
frankly.
The other thing was aroundentertainment and not making any
assumptions about what womenlike or don't like to do.
some women play golf.
Some women are really good atgolf.
Some women hate golf.
You just have to ask and thenthe third thing was really
(07:03):
around.
Being very mindful that you'renot making assumptions about a
woman's purchasing power.
Women are hypersensitive tobeing discounted because it
happens to them all the
Suzan (07:17):
time.
Right?
Absolutely.
It's almost like anticipated.
Anne (07:22):
I mean, there's research that shows that even very senior
women are routinely mistaken forbeing more junior women.
So it's happening to them allthe time, so they're kind of
hypersensitive to it.
So don't make that mistakebecause they'll remember that.
Mm-hmm.
And they'll also remember.
The opposite that you engagedwith them and you were aware of
(07:46):
the gender dynamics ofleadership and even telling
potential women clients thatyou've been through this
workshop would impress them.
You know that you
Suzan (07:56):
making an effort.
I mean, even just saying like,I'm trying to be thoughtful and
not make assumptions about whateverybody likes to do, so I'm
not just gonna suppose thatwe're gonna go play golf later
necessarily like golf, in whichcase we could do that some.
I mean, just being reallytransparent can be disarming in
some ways.
Yes.
Right,
Anne (08:14):
right.
It's a way to buildrelationships, so, oh,
Suzan (08:17):
that's so interesting.
You also created anaward-winning women's leadership
program at BlackRock that isactually part of a Harvard case
study.
What are the key success factorsthere and what impact did it
have on the business?
Was it a similar story to whatyou just shared about Deloitte
or was it different?
Anne (08:36):
It was a, a little bit different, but but similar in
that, all of this has to.
Tied to both individualadvancement and institutional
advancement, right?
So it has to be good for boththe people involved, like the
women and or the, partnerspitching business and for the
(09:00):
business.
So roughly 10 years ago, whenBlackRock decided to make a big
commitment to leadershipdevelopment and to diversity,
equity and inclusion.
So those two things werehappening at the same time, and
I think one of the key successfactors is that BlackRocks a
highest governing body, theglobal executive committee.
(09:23):
Has always had a human capitalcommittee that reports into the
Global Executive committee andI, I really think that's a best
practice and every companyshould do that.
So the Human Capital Committeewas the committee that was
responsible for the talentstrategy of the firm.
And that signal, that talent isa strategy you know?
(09:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, that you're not just likewinging it.
Every business leader says Ourpeople are our biggest asset,
but are you really set up todeliver on that?
And
Suzan (09:57):
there's a difference right between, I just
interviewed also Enes Black fromDuke Fuqua School of Business,
and she focuses on hiringstrategy.
But then there's also a strategyaround retaining your talent and
advancing your talent inequitable ways.
Anne (10:12):
Exactly, and, building a, a diverse leadership bench.
So all of that was under the thestewardship of the human capital
Committee, which by the way wasA very sought after committee to
be on.
Like all the cool people were onthat committee, So, I think that
was one success factor,honestly.
(10:32):
And the fact that the women'sleadership development program
was part of a whole suite ofleadership development programs.
So it wasn't an isolated thing.
It wasn't singling out thewomen, it's very important when
you're doing leadershipdevelopment programs for
specific groups within yourorganization that they don't
(10:53):
feel like it's remedial and thatit's not perceived as like
something is wrong with thesepeople that we need to fix, but
rather.
We're investing in these peoplecuz it's, it's good for our
business.
Suzan (11:06):
It's not charity.
It's absolutely a win-win.
It's
Anne (11:10):
business Yeah, exactly.
And I think the third, successfactor was that it was a year
long program.
And, I think more and morecompanies are doing that, but.
10 years ago, that was prettyunusual.
and that was because, changingmindsets even among the women
(11:30):
around all of this, takes time.
It's not a one shot one anddone, like, okay, couple hours
and then you're done.
It, it involves, reallyunderstanding and redefining
people's leadership identity.
executive.
The podcast is sponsored by ViiVHigher Education, a full service
(11:52):
marketing agency and enrollmentstrategy consulting firm for
colleges and universities.
ViiV is passionate aboutexecutive education and lifelong
learning.
Today's episode is brought toyou by NYU Stern Executive
Education.
On March 27th and 28th, 2023,Anne Weisberg will be teaching a
course called InclusiveLeadership, a Competitive
(12:14):
Advantage.
You can learn more about thiscourse and how to sign up on the
NYU Stern Executive Education.
Suzan (12:22):
I mean, internalized oppression is a term that comes
to mind.
Right, exactly.
I mean,
Anne (12:27):
to a woman.
So, I did one on one orientationwith every woman in the program
because these were very seniorwomen, so they were managing
directors and director.
and to a woman, they were like,why am I in this program?
Like, why are we having this?
Like, I'm telling no one
Suzan (12:45):
I don't wanna be seen as a woman in the workplace.
I don't have that at all.
Right?
Anne (12:53):
I have my entire career, Trying to fit in.
and then, you know, by the endthey were like, oh, I see.
I get it now.
Leadership was also so
Suzan (13:01):
tough because once you start talking about some of the
stories that we probably allcould tell about what it means
to be a woman in the workforce,you can easily be labeled as,
victimizing yourself or as totoo angry, so striking,
whatever, you know, the rightbalance of how to discuss these
problematic.
Trends that we've experiencedwould be tricky.
(13:22):
But that's why programs likethat can help.
Right?
They can help us talk about itin a way that actually aligns
people
Anne (13:28):
exactly.
And I think that was really whatcame out of that program.
The impact on the business wasreally twofold.
One was on the women themselvestwo thirds of them were in
bigger jobs after that program.
Wow.
At the end of the year.
So, so the business, reallybenefited from these tremendous
women leaders.
(13:50):
And that not only benefited thewomen in the program, but also
women coming up and, becausethey could see more and more
role models for themselves.
And frankly, since that time,which was, as I said, over 10
years ago black Park has, rolledout a whole suite of leadership
development programs.
So, because that program was sosuccessful, it led to many other
(14:12):
kinds of investments.
So it was good for the peopleinvolved, but it was also good
for the culture of the firm.
More and more senior leadersgrew in their capacity for
inclusive leader.
And those were the, people, themanagers and senior leaders
involved in the program becauseevery woman had a sponsor who
(14:35):
was on the global executivecommittee, but also their
managers.
Right.
The people they reported to, andthe other people they manage.
So there was a real rippleeffect in the culture.
executive.
The podcast is sponsored by ViiVHigher Education, a full service
marketing agency and enrollmentstrategy consulting firm for
(14:57):
colleges and universities.
ViiV is passionate aboutexecutive education and lifelong
learning.
Today's episode is brought toyou by NYU Stern Executive
Education
Suzan (15:08):
You also wrote a book called Mass Career
Customization, aligning theWorkplace to Today's
Non-Traditional Workforce.
When did that come out?
Anne (15:16):
Well, that came out in 2007.
I co-wrote it with, my boss atDeloitte.
Kathy Benko.
Suzan (15:23):
Okay, so 2007 you wrote that and in it you coined the
phrase corporate lattice as sortof a new model of career
progression.
So the book came out 15 yearsago.
Do you think that it is stillrelevant?
Yes,
Anne (15:39):
I mean, uh, it's funny cause I went back and looked, at
the trends that we, uh,predicted would really make a
difference in the way theworkforce thinks about work.
And this was, as you said, 15years ago, we identified six
trends and they're just asrelevant today.
Wow.
Got it.
So, you know, the shrinking poolof skilled labor.
(16:01):
and we, you know, we've seenthat especially with the
pandemic.
retirements of the baby boomershas like doubled in the last
year.
The increasing number of women,Today, women are the majority of
the skilled or educatedworkforce in the US and really
around the world.
changing expectations of men,and there was just a report in
(16:22):
the Times, about how more andmore men, like 2 million men in
the US are now stay at home.
Dads.
Changing family structures,which is, a result of all these
other changes and generationalchanges and technology changes,
right?
So those were the six trends andwe said like, these are really
affecting the way, talent thinksabout work.
(16:46):
And as organizations, you needto come up with a response to
that.
Our response was to say, youcan't have a rigid, linear,
hierarchical corporate structurelike that doesn't work for
people's lives.
there's so many transactioncosts for both the individual
and the organization, inmaintaining that kind of model
(17:10):
of the corporate ladder, if yougo to a more flexible fluid,
corporate lattice model that'smore agile there'll be so many
gains for both the individualand the organization.
And to do that, we created thisframework called Mass Career
Customization that says that anycareer can be deconstructed in
(17:34):
into four core dimensionsProgress.
Or pace, which is the rate ofcareer progression, workload,
which is the amount of work youdo, location, schedule, which is
where and when you work androle, which is the set of
responsibilities you have.
And every organization should beable to articulate options for
(17:55):
their people along.
Four dimensions and explain thetrade offs for choices made
across those dimensions and youknow, if you think about that,
just the location scheduledimension.
15 years ago, Deloitte again wasvery ahead of its time.
It was pretty much our virtualfirm back then.
But today everybody knows,right?
(18:16):
Every organization knows.
It can work.
Flexibility in terms oflocation, schedule, like
Suzan (18:23):
where and when you work.
Yeah.
I mean it was like the massexperiment forced upon upon all
of us by the pandemic, and theresults were so clear.
People are happier and moreproductive.
Right.
Which I think.
It's shocking to some managersto this day who are still
looking to, to maybe put somearbitrary boundaries in place.
Anne (18:41):
But my point is, is that okay, we've had this mass
experiment, as you call it, thathas proven that, the flexibility
around location schedule worksand.
Organizations are struggling tofigure out what do I do with
that And a lot of businessleaders are like, well, let's
(19:02):
just go back to the way it was.
And that cannot be the
Suzan (19:06):
solution.
Yeah.
There's also something calledthe free market.
You know, the talent is nowgoing to the jobs where they
have that flexibility becausethey've tasted the benefits of
it.
So it's just also not a goodbusiness decision.
Anne (19:20):
So the, so the bunk really gives.
Business leaders, a framework.
We're thinking about how do youredesign these systems so that
they work for both individualsand the
Suzan (19:34):
business well, what blew my mind a little bit about what
you said about those fourpillars, is that not only are
you saying these exist andcorporations need to decide sort
of where they fall or wheretheir talent needs to be to
achieve certain amount of careerprogression, but you're saying,
Corporations should outlineoptions for all four areas and
articulate sort of the benefitsand downsides around those
(19:58):
options.
Right.
And I think that's really geniusand it seems like a lot of
intent needs to be put in it anda lot of conversation needs to
be had, to make that reallyclear and easy to understand for
the people who work for you.
Anne (20:11):
Yes.
I mean, I'm not saying it'seasy.
But I am saying that if you aremore intentional about all of
this, which goes back to our,the start of our conversation,
that talent strategies matter.
That you have to think of yourtalent as something that you
manage strategically just likeevery other part of your
(20:34):
business.
That you'll see tremendouspayoff.
Like it's not easy, but it'sdefinitely worth it.
And it doesn't cost anything.
I mean, this is the thing, youknow, a lot of, change and
transformation is reallyexpensive.
This is about setting differentexpectations.
Of everyone, but especially ofyour managers and giving them
(20:56):
both the tools, the skills, andalso the time, to manage
differently.
But in the end, I mean, as, aswe said, like there are
tremendous dividends for all ofthis in terms of higher
engagement, higher productivity,lower turnover.
Higher retention.
Suzan (21:16):
Yeah.
The research is clear, eventhough it might be
counterintuitive to some, andthat might be the reason that
we're not seeing completeadoption of flexibility in the
workplace now, because eventhough it's been proven out by
these two years, it still seemscounterintuitive that the less
you control people, the betterthe results will be
Anne (21:37):
right?
Because guess what?
You know, command and control, Imean, Last night, in, our
inclusive leadership class, Idid a poll on what was the,
number one characteristic of,inclusive leadership.
And my students, the majority ofthem, said empathy.
Yeah.
It wasn't, it wasn't confidence,it wasn't vision, it wasn't any
(22:03):
of that.
It was empathy.
Yeah.
Wow.
So we, we are in a paradigmshift around what leadership
looks like.
It across the world.
I think in, in both the publicsector and the private sector.
Suzan (22:19):
It's exciting actually.
So we're imagining our listenersas people who are in leadership
positions, you know, mid-levelto senior level, people who want
to lead, lean into leadership.
And I think a lot of them arelistening to this podcast
looking to get insights thatthey can kind of adopt, you
know, and they're working livesand.
(22:40):
In terms of what advice youwould give, what would you say
to someone, you know, a woman oranother minority in the
workplace today?
And then, um, to flip that onits head, what advice would you
give leaders and managerslooking to create inclusive
cultures as well?
Anne (22:55):
Yeah, I, I think for any, underrepresented group, my
advice is pretty simple.
You have to think of themeritocracy as about results and
relationships.
Nobody succeeds alone, and as mymentor, charter Sheu, who's a
(23:17):
retired partner from EY and nowsits on, several public company
boards, You only succeed ifothers want you to succeed, and
you have to invest inrelationships, and you have to
be strategic about doing that.
And women and people of colorare because it, it is harder for
(23:40):
them.
There's no question.
It's harder for them to build,powerful relationships with
powerful people insideorganizations.
You have to see it as part ofyour job.
So that's the first thing Andthen, for managers and leaders,
(24:01):
my message is pretty simple.
Inclusive leadership is achoice.
you have to make that choice.
And, and then you have to bevery intentional about what it
means every day.
and you'll get better at it.
It's not like it's gonna be hardforever, but it is a choice.
and you have to decide that thisis the way you wanna be thought
(24:24):
of as a.
And this is the way you're gonnaget results because I can,
guarantee you your results willfollow once you decide that this
is how you wanna lead.
But you know that that's why weoffer these courses so that we
can help leaders and managersfigure out what that means for
(24:47):
them.
Suzan (24:48):
Does it also, I mean, you, you were talking about how
the meritocracy is a combinationnow in the knowledge economy,
right?
Of relationships and results.
And so if I'm a manager, lookingto be more inclusive, I can
understand how I can give peopleflexibility and try to be
empathetic about the challengesthat might, require them to have
(25:08):
a non-conforming schedule orwhatever it is.
But what can I do to.
Them create better relationshipstoo, Have you seen somebody do
that really well?
Cause it seems likerelationships are so ambiguous,
you know, it's just intuitiveand messy, and how do you get in
front of the right people?
It, it just seems overwhelming.
(25:28):
Oh, I think that's
Anne (25:29):
the, this again, it's like doesn't cost anything.
It's one of the most impactfulthings a manager can do, which
is to introduce their people toother people.
Who have influence and cloutwithin the organization or
outside the organization.
If you're a client service, uh,business, you know, introduce,
(25:52):
especially your women and peopleof color to influential people
who can make a difference intheir careers.
Ask them, who do you wanna?
Give them visibilityopportunities, if you get
invited to speak on a panel,suggest somebody diverse from
your team instead.
Suzan (26:13):
Yeah.
That's an easy, I mean, that's,I shouldn't say that's an easy
one, but that's a good one,right?
That
Anne (26:19):
take much.
It doesn't take much, but itdoes take making that
intentional choice to expand,and invest in your people in a
different way.
Suzan (26:29):
It also means that to some extent you have to not
always be obsessed with your ownadvancement, but rather think
about what your team needs toget ahead to.
And I
Anne (26:40):
can tell you, because I, I've seen this, that leaders who
lead this way, everybody wantsto work with them.
So they end up with the besttalent on their teams.
And everybody knows like, if youhave the best talent, you win
So, you're not giving anythingup.
You'll gain more than you giveup, I promise you.
Suzan (27:01):
I love it makes me think of a time when I was more entry
level, at Penn State, and our VPgot an invitation to go to this
conference with these incrediblyfamous speakers.
I mean, Hillary Clinton wasthere, Forza, Kaia, Thomas
Friedman, I don't even rememberall of them.
Wow.
And he sent me an email and hesaid, do you wanna go?
And I was like, yes.
(27:22):
you know, and I.
Played and I felt really excitedand, and he didn't need to do
that.
And I can't say that anythingbig came out of it for my career
other than so many ideas and,some confidence that I could go
to events like this and, um,exactly.
You know, that was CraigWhiteman, who was the vice
president for, online andoutreach at Penn State, and he
was one of those leaders who wasreally always thinking about how
(27:44):
can you take the people on histeam with.
You know, helping advance otherpeople instead of himself.
So that resonates
Anne (27:50):
very strong.
And didn't you then, didn't you
Suzan (27:52):
love working for him?
I absolutely did.
Yeah.
And he was so curious.
It was so much fun to meet withhim and, yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, I have, I think
Anne (28:00):
curiosity is, um, yeah.
Is, is a, is a key inclusiveleadership.
Suzan (28:07):
curiosity and then the empathy that makes, I mean, they
probably go hand in hand to someextent.
Right.
what problem or researchchallenge is still keeping you
up at night?
We're recording this in Novemberof 2022.
We've had this mass experimentwith c o We know it didn't
change everybody's minds, but itchanged a few a lot.
(28:27):
You know what, what is next foryou as you're looking at what
you're researching, what you'reteaching?
Anne (28:32):
Well, what keeps me up at night is, the role of business
society broadly defined andspecifically kind of articulated
through esg, and especially forme, the s what do we mean by the
S and esg?
The social, what does that mean?
How do we measure it?
(28:52):
What does that mean, both interms of how organizations,
manage and treat their people.
So that's the internal part ofthe s and also how
organizations, fit into andthink about the communities in
which they operate.
So there's an internal andexternal component to the s and
I think the S is kind of areally muddy, messy.
(29:17):
Middle, it's like the middleletter.
It's kind of the middle child ofthis whole conversation, and we
are still trying to all figureout like, what does it mean?
So, and how can we best deliveron the s.
Interesting.
Suzan (29:30):
When you think about the executive learning environment
at NYU Stern, say somebody'slistening to this right now,
it's like, I would really liketo explore what's there for me
at NYU Stern, and if I can usesome of the courses, offerings,
programs to advance myself.
What do you think makes itunique?
Anne (29:47):
Well, in my experience, stern has.
This longstanding commitment tothese questions like what is the
role of business in society?
How do we create stronger,businesses that are also.
Contributing positively tosociety.
So I think, it has alongstanding commitment to that.
(30:09):
But in terms of exec ed, inparticular, what I find unique
about Stern is the reach, it cancast such a wide net.
So I've had in my courses,people who are, are managing
partners at major law firms andalso executive directors of
regional arts organizations,and, bringing those people
(30:32):
together creates a tremendouslearning environment.
I have found that to be, one ofthe most valuable aspects of,
NYU Stern's exec ed programs, atleast from my perspective, and I
think from the students too,frankly.
Suzan (30:50):
Is there a specific course that somebody could just
enroll in that you would wantpeople to know about?
Like, for example, yourinclusive leadership course, is
that one that people can take oris it it's just part of the mba.
You have to be admitted in
Anne (31:00):
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
It's part of exec ed and Ithink, of course there's my
course, but I, I wouldencourage, your listeners to,
look at all the range of coursesthat, stern Exec Ed offers.
I mean, Constantly updating andadding new courses.
I think the best thing is forpeople to go on this a Stern
(31:21):
Exec ed website and just look atthe
Suzan (31:24):
options.
There are many, many options.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Anne (31:27):
And there, there are many different kinds of, Programs,
for executives, so mm-hmm.
Suzan (31:34):
and online and in person.
Live online versus asynchronous.
You have it all right?
You have
Anne (31:40):
it all and, and different ways of scheduling.
so you can take courses that areall just in a couple of days or
courses that last, six months orwhatever.
I mean, it's really, there's somany options for you.
It's, they've designed it.
Everybody should be able to findsomething that works for them.
Suzan (32:00):
I also love when I think about the executive education
market, I just saw a statisticthat sort of the top
universities in the UnitedStates have a 51% market share,
which means that if you come toa school like NYU Stern and you
end up interacting with peoplefrom all over the world who are
coming to the best of the bestfor executive education.
Anne (32:19):
Totally.
I mean, Literally people fromall over the world.
That's exactly right.
Suzan (32:25):
So you teach this course on inclusive leadership.
I'm gonna end with the questionthat I ask everyone at the end,
which is, in a nutshell, whatdoes leadership mean to you?
Anne (32:35):
Leadership means making a choice to create fair, equitable
workplace cultures every.
And having the skills and toolsto deliver on that.
Suzan (32:47):
It's not just a position that you're in, it's a choice
that you make.
Can I make that choice if I'mnot technically a leader on the
org chart
Anne (32:54):
just yet?
Absolutely.
We tell our students, you haveagency at every.
You can totally change somebodyelse's life and career
trajectory at any level in theorganization.
Suzan (33:08):
Thank you so much for your insights, for your time.
It was an absolute pleasure andhonor to have you and I can't
wait to share this episode with
Anne (33:16):
the world.
Thank you.
It was so fun to talk to.
Thank you for listening to ExecYou, the podcast sponsored by
ViiV Higher Education.
We hope you learn something thatwill help you grow as a leader.
Please don't forget to sharethis episode with your network
and subscribe to the podcast soyou don't miss future episodes.
(33:36):
On March 27th and 28th, 2023,Anne Weisberg will be teaching a
course called InclusiveLeadership, a Competitive
Advantage.
You can learn more about thiscourse and how to sign up on the
NYU Stern Executive Education.
it's very important when you're doing leadership
development programs forspecific groups within your
organization that they don'tfeel like it's remedial and that
it's not perceived as likesomething is wrong with these
people that we need to fix, butrather.
We're investing in these peoplecuz it's, it's good for our
business.
(00:23):
welcome to Executive thepodcast, bringing you actionable
insights with faculty membersfrom the world's top business
schools.
I'm your host, Suzanne Brinker.
Today I'm excited to share aconversation with Anne Weisberg,
who is at NYU Stern School ofManagement, and she will be
talking with us about inclusiveleadership.
Suzan (00:41):
hello Ann.
Welcome to Exec the podcast.
How are you today?
Anne (00:45):
I'm great.
Thank you so much for having me.
We are honored
Suzan (00:49):
to have.
You would love to get started byjust hearing about your journey
into studying talent strategieswith the gender lens and how you
ended up at NYU Stern.
Anne (00:58):
Okay.
Well, for me, the personal isprofessional.
I was pregnant my last semesterof Harvard Law School, and so I
entered the workplace as a newworking mom.
That experience led me to writemy first book which was
everything a working motherneeds to know, which came out in
(01:21):
1994.
And that really changed thecourse of my career.
I had been practicing law upuntil then, But after that book
came out, I realized like thereis an opportunity to make
workplaces more inclusive.
And so I devoted my career todesigning workplace strategies
that foster inclusive cultureswhere everyone could thrive.
(01:42):
And it's not just because.
I wanted those cultures formyself.
It's because the research isclear that inclusive cultures
are more high performing.
They have lower turnover, andthey lead to more innovation.
And in fact, just one data pointfrom Gartner's HR research that
(02:03):
came out at the end of lastyear, employees that feel that
their workplaces are fair.
And equitable are 26% more highperforming than those who don't
and are 27% less likely to quitI, I call that the equity
(02:25):
dividend because honestly, thosenumbers are huge and it doesn't
cost that much to get there.
It's really more.
A mindset shift, a leadershipshift.
And that's what led me to Stern,to tell you the truth, because
in my experience frontlinemanagers were really the key to
whether people experience theirworkplace culture as inclusive
(02:47):
or not.
And in fact several years ago,McKenzie which does an annual
work, women in the workplacereport, Coined a new term called
the broken Rung to reference oridentify this issue that
frontline managers really arethe key to whether a diverse
workforce is advanced in anyorganization.
(03:11):
And unfortunately, frontlinemanagers don't get a lot of
training or, skill developmentaround how to do.
And so I approached NYU Sternand about eight years ago, and I
said, I think this could reallymake a difference.
I think you know, the futurebusiness leaders that you're,
(03:31):
that you are educating shouldlearn how to do this, should
learn how to lead inclusivelyand Stern was totally on board
and I've been teaching thereever.
Suzan (03:40):
Very, very cool.
And I'm assuming in 1994 thebook that you published was more
unique, in the assertions thatit made, but it's still really
relevant today, isn't it?
We haven't quite arrived at aplace where every workplace is
inclusive and equitable.
Anne (03:58):
No, it's a journey for any organization.
And.
It's aspirational but thatdoesn't mean it's not
achievable.
Suzan (04:07):
Can you maybe tell a story about an organization
you've worked with recently thatwanted to become more inclusive
and what they changed and whatresults they saw?
Anne (04:18):
Having an inclusive culture is both good for your
people and good for business.
And I wanna share a story aboutthat.
It, it's actually goes back tomy days leading the women's
initiative at Deloitte.
When I first got to Deloitte themission of the Women's
Initiative was to drivemarketplace growth and create a
culture where the best choose tobe.
(04:40):
And interesting that drivemarketplace growth was first.
And so, like when I got there,the challenge was how we gonna
deliver on that mission And sowe began by just surveying the
partners who were, majoritywhite men.
And ask them, have you sold to awoman in the last two years?
And if so, do you think womenbuy differently from men?
(05:03):
And um, it turned out that over90% of the partners had sold
Deloitte services to a woman.
And this was over 10 years agoago.
You know, Over 90% of thepartners had sold to a woman.
The woman had been the buyer ofDeloitte services, and everybody
said, yes, I do think women buydifferently from men, but I'm
(05:25):
not sure what that means.
So we developed a, a curriculum,a four hour workshop for
partners on how to sell towomen.
And it was mostly for.
The male partners because atthat time it was about 75% of
the partnership.
we took about 500 partnersthrough that before I left
(05:46):
Deloitte, and they collectivelyreported 750 million of new
business from that.
Uh, so, um,
Suzan (05:55):
that's, do you fell differently to a woman now?
I'm curious
Anne (06:00):
It was very simple things.
Part of it was how.
you pitched Deloitte services?
Honestly the pitch teams hadbeen trained to always try to
bring the most senior person toa meeting especially if it was a
very big potential client.
So they would try to get on theCEO's calendar or somebody like
(06:21):
that.
And the women clients said, Lovemeeting the ceo.
Really nice guy or gal Butunless that person's working on
my stuff, I don't really care.
I wanna meet the team.
They're much more interested inmeeting the team and knowing
what, what did, what was theteam makeup, who was gonna do
what, and getting to know the.
(06:42):
And so that really changed theway pitches were designed
frankly.
The other thing was aroundentertainment and not making any
assumptions about what womenlike or don't like to do.
some women play golf.
Some women are really good atgolf.
Some women hate golf.
You just have to ask and thenthe third thing was really
(07:03):
around.
Being very mindful that you'renot making assumptions about a
woman's purchasing power.
Women are hypersensitive tobeing discounted because it
happens to them all the
Suzan (07:17):
time.
Right?
Absolutely.
It's almost like anticipated.
Anne (07:22):
I mean, there's research that shows that even very senior
women are routinely mistaken forbeing more junior women.
So it's happening to them allthe time, so they're kind of
hypersensitive to it.
So don't make that mistakebecause they'll remember that.
Mm-hmm.
And they'll also remember.
The opposite that you engagedwith them and you were aware of
(07:46):
the gender dynamics ofleadership and even telling
potential women clients thatyou've been through this
workshop would impress them.
You know that you
Suzan (07:56):
making an effort.
I mean, even just saying like,I'm trying to be thoughtful and
not make assumptions about whateverybody likes to do, so I'm
not just gonna suppose thatwe're gonna go play golf later
necessarily like golf, in whichcase we could do that some.
I mean, just being reallytransparent can be disarming in
some ways.
Yes.
Right,
Anne (08:14):
right.
It's a way to buildrelationships, so, oh,
Suzan (08:17):
that's so interesting.
You also created anaward-winning women's leadership
program at BlackRock that isactually part of a Harvard case
study.
What are the key success factorsthere and what impact did it
have on the business?
Was it a similar story to whatyou just shared about Deloitte
or was it different?
Anne (08:36):
It was a, a little bit different, but but similar in
that, all of this has to.
Tied to both individualadvancement and institutional
advancement, right?
So it has to be good for boththe people involved, like the
women and or the, partnerspitching business and for the
(09:00):
business.
So roughly 10 years ago, whenBlackRock decided to make a big
commitment to leadershipdevelopment and to diversity,
equity and inclusion.
So those two things werehappening at the same time, and
I think one of the key successfactors is that BlackRocks a
highest governing body, theglobal executive committee.
(09:23):
Has always had a human capitalcommittee that reports into the
Global Executive committee andI, I really think that's a best
practice and every companyshould do that.
So the Human Capital Committeewas the committee that was
responsible for the talentstrategy of the firm.
And that signal, that talent isa strategy you know?
(09:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, that you're not just likewinging it.
Every business leader says Ourpeople are our biggest asset,
but are you really set up todeliver on that?
And
Suzan (09:57):
there's a difference right between, I just
interviewed also Enes Black fromDuke Fuqua School of Business,
and she focuses on hiringstrategy.
But then there's also a strategyaround retaining your talent and
advancing your talent inequitable ways.
Anne (10:12):
Exactly, and, building a, a diverse leadership bench.
So all of that was under the thestewardship of the human capital
Committee, which by the way wasA very sought after committee to
be on.
Like all the cool people were onthat committee, So, I think that
was one success factor,honestly.
(10:32):
And the fact that the women'sleadership development program
was part of a whole suite ofleadership development programs.
So it wasn't an isolated thing.
It wasn't singling out thewomen, it's very important when
you're doing leadershipdevelopment programs for
specific groups within yourorganization that they don't
(10:53):
feel like it's remedial and thatit's not perceived as like
something is wrong with thesepeople that we need to fix, but
rather.
We're investing in these peoplecuz it's, it's good for our
business.
Suzan (11:06):
It's not charity.
It's absolutely a win-win.
It's
Anne (11:10):
business Yeah, exactly.
And I think the third, successfactor was that it was a year
long program.
And, I think more and morecompanies are doing that, but.
10 years ago, that was prettyunusual.
and that was because, changingmindsets even among the women
(11:30):
around all of this, takes time.
It's not a one shot one anddone, like, okay, couple hours
and then you're done.
It, it involves, reallyunderstanding and redefining
people's leadership identity.
executive.
The podcast is sponsored by ViiVHigher Education, a full service
(11:52):
marketing agency and enrollmentstrategy consulting firm for
colleges and universities.
ViiV is passionate aboutexecutive education and lifelong
learning.
Today's episode is brought toyou by NYU Stern Executive
Education.
On March 27th and 28th, 2023,Anne Weisberg will be teaching a
course called InclusiveLeadership, a Competitive
(12:14):
Advantage.
You can learn more about thiscourse and how to sign up on the
NYU Stern Executive Education.
Suzan (12:22):
I mean, internalized oppression is a term that comes
to mind.
Right, exactly.
I mean,
Anne (12:27):
to a woman.
So, I did one on one orientationwith every woman in the program
because these were very seniorwomen, so they were managing
directors and director.
and to a woman, they were like,why am I in this program?
Like, why are we having this?
Like, I'm telling no one
Suzan (12:45):
I don't wanna be seen as a woman in the workplace.
I don't have that at all.
Right?
Anne (12:53):
I have my entire career, Trying to fit in.
and then, you know, by the endthey were like, oh, I see.
I get it now.
Leadership was also so
Suzan (13:01):
tough because once you start talking about some of the
stories that we probably allcould tell about what it means
to be a woman in the workforce,you can easily be labeled as,
victimizing yourself or as totoo angry, so striking,
whatever, you know, the rightbalance of how to discuss these
problematic.
Trends that we've experiencedwould be tricky.
(13:22):
But that's why programs likethat can help.
Right?
They can help us talk about itin a way that actually aligns
people
Anne (13:28):
exactly.
And I think that was really whatcame out of that program.
The impact on the business wasreally twofold.
One was on the women themselvestwo thirds of them were in
bigger jobs after that program.
Wow.
At the end of the year.
So, so the business, reallybenefited from these tremendous
women leaders.
(13:50):
And that not only benefited thewomen in the program, but also
women coming up and, becausethey could see more and more
role models for themselves.
And frankly, since that time,which was, as I said, over 10
years ago black Park has, rolledout a whole suite of leadership
development programs.
So, because that program was sosuccessful, it led to many other
(14:12):
kinds of investments.
So it was good for the peopleinvolved, but it was also good
for the culture of the firm.
More and more senior leadersgrew in their capacity for
inclusive leader.
And those were the, people, themanagers and senior leaders
involved in the program becauseevery woman had a sponsor who
(14:35):
was on the global executivecommittee, but also their
managers.
Right.
The people they reported to, andthe other people they manage.
So there was a real rippleeffect in the culture.
executive.
The podcast is sponsored by ViiVHigher Education, a full service
marketing agency and enrollmentstrategy consulting firm for
(14:57):
colleges and universities.
ViiV is passionate aboutexecutive education and lifelong
learning.
Today's episode is brought toyou by NYU Stern Executive
Education
Suzan (15:08):
You also wrote a book called Mass Career
Customization, aligning theWorkplace to Today's
Non-Traditional Workforce.
When did that come out?
Anne (15:16):
Well, that came out in 2007.
I co-wrote it with, my boss atDeloitte.
Kathy Benko.
Suzan (15:23):
Okay, so 2007 you wrote that and in it you coined the
phrase corporate lattice as sortof a new model of career
progression.
So the book came out 15 yearsago.
Do you think that it is stillrelevant?
Yes,
Anne (15:39):
I mean, uh, it's funny cause I went back and looked, at
the trends that we, uh,predicted would really make a
difference in the way theworkforce thinks about work.
And this was, as you said, 15years ago, we identified six
trends and they're just asrelevant today.
Wow.
Got it.
So, you know, the shrinking poolof skilled labor.
(16:01):
and we, you know, we've seenthat especially with the
pandemic.
retirements of the baby boomershas like doubled in the last
year.
The increasing number of women,Today, women are the majority of
the skilled or educatedworkforce in the US and really
around the world.
changing expectations of men,and there was just a report in
(16:22):
the Times, about how more andmore men, like 2 million men in
the US are now stay at home.
Dads.
Changing family structures,which is, a result of all these
other changes and generationalchanges and technology changes,
right?
So those were the six trends andwe said like, these are really
affecting the way, talent thinksabout work.
(16:46):
And as organizations, you needto come up with a response to
that.
Our response was to say, youcan't have a rigid, linear,
hierarchical corporate structurelike that doesn't work for
people's lives.
there's so many transactioncosts for both the individual
and the organization, inmaintaining that kind of model
(17:10):
of the corporate ladder, if yougo to a more flexible fluid,
corporate lattice model that'smore agile there'll be so many
gains for both the individualand the organization.
And to do that, we created thisframework called Mass Career
Customization that says that anycareer can be deconstructed in
(17:34):
into four core dimensionsProgress.
Or pace, which is the rate ofcareer progression, workload,
which is the amount of work youdo, location, schedule, which is
where and when you work androle, which is the set of
responsibilities you have.
And every organization should beable to articulate options for
(17:55):
their people along.
Four dimensions and explain thetrade offs for choices made
across those dimensions and youknow, if you think about that,
just the location scheduledimension.
15 years ago, Deloitte again wasvery ahead of its time.
It was pretty much our virtualfirm back then.
But today everybody knows,right?
(18:16):
Every organization knows.
It can work.
Flexibility in terms oflocation, schedule, like
Suzan (18:23):
where and when you work.
Yeah.
I mean it was like the massexperiment forced upon upon all
of us by the pandemic, and theresults were so clear.
People are happier and moreproductive.
Right.
Which I think.
It's shocking to some managersto this day who are still
looking to, to maybe put somearbitrary boundaries in place.
Anne (18:41):
But my point is, is that okay, we've had this mass
experiment, as you call it, thathas proven that, the flexibility
around location schedule worksand.
Organizations are struggling tofigure out what do I do with
that And a lot of businessleaders are like, well, let's
(19:02):
just go back to the way it was.
And that cannot be the
Suzan (19:06):
solution.
Yeah.
There's also something calledthe free market.
You know, the talent is nowgoing to the jobs where they
have that flexibility becausethey've tasted the benefits of
it.
So it's just also not a goodbusiness decision.
Anne (19:20):
So the, so the bunk really gives.
Business leaders, a framework.
We're thinking about how do youredesign these systems so that
they work for both individualsand the
Suzan (19:34):
business well, what blew my mind a little bit about what
you said about those fourpillars, is that not only are
you saying these exist andcorporations need to decide sort
of where they fall or wheretheir talent needs to be to
achieve certain amount of careerprogression, but you're saying,
Corporations should outlineoptions for all four areas and
articulate sort of the benefitsand downsides around those
(19:58):
options.
Right.
And I think that's really geniusand it seems like a lot of
intent needs to be put in it anda lot of conversation needs to
be had, to make that reallyclear and easy to understand for
the people who work for you.
Anne (20:11):
Yes.
I mean, I'm not saying it'seasy.
But I am saying that if you aremore intentional about all of
this, which goes back to our,the start of our conversation,
that talent strategies matter.
That you have to think of yourtalent as something that you
manage strategically just likeevery other part of your
(20:34):
business.
That you'll see tremendouspayoff.
Like it's not easy, but it'sdefinitely worth it.
And it doesn't cost anything.
I mean, this is the thing, youknow, a lot of, change and
transformation is reallyexpensive.
This is about setting differentexpectations.
Of everyone, but especially ofyour managers and giving them
(20:56):
both the tools, the skills, andalso the time, to manage
differently.
But in the end, I mean, as, aswe said, like there are
tremendous dividends for all ofthis in terms of higher
engagement, higher productivity,lower turnover.
Higher retention.
Suzan (21:16):
Yeah.
The research is clear, eventhough it might be
counterintuitive to some, andthat might be the reason that
we're not seeing completeadoption of flexibility in the
workplace now, because eventhough it's been proven out by
these two years, it still seemscounterintuitive that the less
you control people, the betterthe results will be
Anne (21:37):
right?
Because guess what?
You know, command and control, Imean, Last night, in, our
inclusive leadership class, Idid a poll on what was the,
number one characteristic of,inclusive leadership.
And my students, the majority ofthem, said empathy.
Yeah.
It wasn't, it wasn't confidence,it wasn't vision, it wasn't any
(22:03):
of that.
It was empathy.
Yeah.
Wow.
So we, we are in a paradigmshift around what leadership
looks like.
It across the world.
I think in, in both the publicsector and the private sector.
Suzan (22:19):
It's exciting actually.
So we're imagining our listenersas people who are in leadership
positions, you know, mid-levelto senior level, people who want
to lead, lean into leadership.
And I think a lot of them arelistening to this podcast
looking to get insights thatthey can kind of adopt, you
know, and they're working livesand.
(22:40):
In terms of what advice youwould give, what would you say
to someone, you know, a woman oranother minority in the
workplace today?
And then, um, to flip that onits head, what advice would you
give leaders and managerslooking to create inclusive
cultures as well?
Anne (22:55):
Yeah, I, I think for any, underrepresented group, my
advice is pretty simple.
You have to think of themeritocracy as about results and
relationships.
Nobody succeeds alone, and as mymentor, charter Sheu, who's a
(23:17):
retired partner from EY and nowsits on, several public company
boards, You only succeed ifothers want you to succeed, and
you have to invest inrelationships, and you have to
be strategic about doing that.
And women and people of colorare because it, it is harder for
(23:40):
them.
There's no question.
It's harder for them to build,powerful relationships with
powerful people insideorganizations.
You have to see it as part ofyour job.
So that's the first thing Andthen, for managers and leaders,
(24:01):
my message is pretty simple.
Inclusive leadership is achoice.
you have to make that choice.
And, and then you have to bevery intentional about what it
means every day.
and you'll get better at it.
It's not like it's gonna be hardforever, but it is a choice.
and you have to decide that thisis the way you wanna be thought
(24:24):
of as a.
And this is the way you're gonnaget results because I can,
guarantee you your results willfollow once you decide that this
is how you wanna lead.
But you know that that's why weoffer these courses so that we
can help leaders and managersfigure out what that means for
(24:47):
them.
Suzan (24:48):
Does it also, I mean, you, you were talking about how
the meritocracy is a combinationnow in the knowledge economy,
right?
Of relationships and results.
And so if I'm a manager, lookingto be more inclusive, I can
understand how I can give peopleflexibility and try to be
empathetic about the challengesthat might, require them to have
(25:08):
a non-conforming schedule orwhatever it is.
But what can I do to.
Them create better relationshipstoo, Have you seen somebody do
that really well?
Cause it seems likerelationships are so ambiguous,
you know, it's just intuitiveand messy, and how do you get in
front of the right people?
It, it just seems overwhelming.
(25:28):
Oh, I think that's
Anne (25:29):
the, this again, it's like doesn't cost anything.
It's one of the most impactfulthings a manager can do, which
is to introduce their people toother people.
Who have influence and cloutwithin the organization or
outside the organization.
If you're a client service, uh,business, you know, introduce,
(25:52):
especially your women and peopleof color to influential people
who can make a difference intheir careers.
Ask them, who do you wanna?
Give them visibilityopportunities, if you get
invited to speak on a panel,suggest somebody diverse from
your team instead.
Suzan (26:13):
Yeah.
That's an easy, I mean, that's,I shouldn't say that's an easy
one, but that's a good one,right?
That
Anne (26:19):
take much.
It doesn't take much, but itdoes take making that
intentional choice to expand,and invest in your people in a
different way.
Suzan (26:29):
It also means that to some extent you have to not
always be obsessed with your ownadvancement, but rather think
about what your team needs toget ahead to.
And I
Anne (26:40):
can tell you, because I, I've seen this, that leaders who
lead this way, everybody wantsto work with them.
So they end up with the besttalent on their teams.
And everybody knows like, if youhave the best talent, you win
So, you're not giving anythingup.
You'll gain more than you giveup, I promise you.
Suzan (27:01):
I love it makes me think of a time when I was more entry
level, at Penn State, and our VPgot an invitation to go to this
conference with these incrediblyfamous speakers.
I mean, Hillary Clinton wasthere, Forza, Kaia, Thomas
Friedman, I don't even rememberall of them.
Wow.
And he sent me an email and hesaid, do you wanna go?
And I was like, yes.
(27:22):
you know, and I.
Played and I felt really excitedand, and he didn't need to do
that.
And I can't say that anythingbig came out of it for my career
other than so many ideas and,some confidence that I could go
to events like this and, um,exactly.
You know, that was CraigWhiteman, who was the vice
president for, online andoutreach at Penn State, and he
was one of those leaders who wasreally always thinking about how
(27:44):
can you take the people on histeam with.
You know, helping advance otherpeople instead of himself.
So that resonates
Anne (27:50):
very strong.
And didn't you then, didn't you
Suzan (27:52):
love working for him?
I absolutely did.
Yeah.
And he was so curious.
It was so much fun to meet withhim and, yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, I have, I think
Anne (28:00):
curiosity is, um, yeah.
Is, is a, is a key inclusiveleadership.
Suzan (28:07):
curiosity and then the empathy that makes, I mean, they
probably go hand in hand to someextent.
Right.
what problem or researchchallenge is still keeping you
up at night?
We're recording this in Novemberof 2022.
We've had this mass experimentwith c o We know it didn't
change everybody's minds, but itchanged a few a lot.
(28:27):
You know what, what is next foryou as you're looking at what
you're researching, what you'reteaching?
Anne (28:32):
Well, what keeps me up at night is, the role of business
society broadly defined andspecifically kind of articulated
through esg, and especially forme, the s what do we mean by the
S and esg?
The social, what does that mean?
How do we measure it?
(28:52):
What does that mean, both interms of how organizations,
manage and treat their people.
So that's the internal part ofthe s and also how
organizations, fit into andthink about the communities in
which they operate.
So there's an internal andexternal component to the s and
I think the S is kind of areally muddy, messy.
(29:17):
Middle, it's like the middleletter.
It's kind of the middle child ofthis whole conversation, and we
are still trying to all figureout like, what does it mean?
So, and how can we best deliveron the s.
Interesting.
Suzan (29:30):
When you think about the executive learning environment
at NYU Stern, say somebody'slistening to this right now,
it's like, I would really liketo explore what's there for me
at NYU Stern, and if I can usesome of the courses, offerings,
programs to advance myself.
What do you think makes itunique?
Anne (29:47):
Well, in my experience, stern has.
This longstanding commitment tothese questions like what is the
role of business in society?
How do we create stronger,businesses that are also.
Contributing positively tosociety.
So I think, it has alongstanding commitment to that.
(30:09):
But in terms of exec ed, inparticular, what I find unique
about Stern is the reach, it cancast such a wide net.
So I've had in my courses,people who are, are managing
partners at major law firms andalso executive directors of
regional arts organizations,and, bringing those people
(30:32):
together creates a tremendouslearning environment.
I have found that to be, one ofthe most valuable aspects of,
NYU Stern's exec ed programs, atleast from my perspective, and I
think from the students too,frankly.
Suzan (30:50):
Is there a specific course that somebody could just
enroll in that you would wantpeople to know about?
Like, for example, yourinclusive leadership course, is
that one that people can take oris it it's just part of the mba.
You have to be admitted in
Anne (31:00):
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
It's part of exec ed and Ithink, of course there's my
course, but I, I wouldencourage, your listeners to,
look at all the range of coursesthat, stern Exec Ed offers.
I mean, Constantly updating andadding new courses.
I think the best thing is forpeople to go on this a Stern
(31:21):
Exec ed website and just look atthe
Suzan (31:24):
options.
There are many, many options.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Anne (31:27):
And there, there are many different kinds of, Programs,
for executives, so mm-hmm.
Suzan (31:34):
and online and in person.
Live online versus asynchronous.
You have it all right?
You have
Anne (31:40):
it all and, and different ways of scheduling.
so you can take courses that areall just in a couple of days or
courses that last, six months orwhatever.
I mean, it's really, there's somany options for you.
It's, they've designed it.
Everybody should be able to findsomething that works for them.
Suzan (32:00):
I also love when I think about the executive education
market, I just saw a statisticthat sort of the top
universities in the UnitedStates have a 51% market share,
which means that if you come toa school like NYU Stern and you
end up interacting with peoplefrom all over the world who are
coming to the best of the bestfor executive education.
Anne (32:19):
Totally.
I mean, Literally people fromall over the world.
That's exactly right.
Suzan (32:25):
So you teach this course on inclusive leadership.
I'm gonna end with the questionthat I ask everyone at the end,
which is, in a nutshell, whatdoes leadership mean to you?
Anne (32:35):
Leadership means making a choice to create fair, equitable
workplace cultures every.
And having the skills and toolsto deliver on that.
Suzan (32:47):
It's not just a position that you're in, it's a choice
that you make.
Can I make that choice if I'mnot technically a leader on the
org chart
Anne (32:54):
just yet?
Absolutely.
We tell our students, you haveagency at every.
You can totally change somebodyelse's life and career
trajectory at any level in theorganization.
Suzan (33:08):
Thank you so much for your insights, for your time.
It was an absolute pleasure andhonor to have you and I can't
wait to share this episode with
Anne (33:16):
the world.
Thank you.
It was so fun to talk to.
Thank you for listening to ExecYou, the podcast sponsored by
ViiV Higher Education.
We hope you learn something thatwill help you grow as a leader.
Please don't forget to sharethis episode with your network
and subscribe to the podcast soyou don't miss future episodes.
(33:36):
On March 27th and 28th, 2023,Anne Weisberg will be teaching a
course called InclusiveLeadership, a Competitive
Advantage.
You can learn more about thiscourse and how to sign up on the
NYU Stern Executive Education.
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