Ursula K. Le Guin with curator Catherine Li - ART BOOK CLUB - Exhibitionistas

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Exhibition Esters,
this is Joanna PR Nevis. I am an independent curator and
writer and the hosts of this podcast.
For those who follow the podcastregularly, of course you notice
that the last episode did not drop and the reason is very

(00:21):
simple. I was travelling for work for
the most part of three weeks. If you needed any proof that
this is a one woman show, that'sit, You have it.
Sometimes these things happen asit so happens to catch the flu,
which is precisely why my voice sounds a bit different today.

(00:46):
But I'm so, so, so excited to introduce this new episode to
you. Which, by the way, is also a new
segment called Art Book Club. And I'm so proud of this
segment. I'm very proud of this episode.
It was not easy. I have to tell you not to drop
the episodes because I am a perfectionist.

(01:08):
I like everything to be impeccable.
But also, this is an independentpodcast.
And if you needed any more incentives to finally click on
that link and donate, I think this is it, isn't it?
You know, this podcast cannot exist without you, and it can

(01:31):
only thrive if you become a member.
So there's many ways to do it. You can go on the show's notes.
So that's the little blurb belowthe title of the episode.
It's a sort of a description of the episode that you find on all
platforms, all podcasts platforms, and you have very,
very different ways to contribute.

(01:53):
You can subscribe to the sub stack, which by the same token
is a way for you to subscribe tothe newsletter.
So as you know, I'm a writer, I don't do newsletters.
I find them a waste of time, a waste of space.
So usually what I do with the newsletters is that if they
become a sort of a a text, it they're also filled with links,

(02:19):
information about the episodes. This is a segment that I.
Decided to create. While talking to my guests,
Catherine Lee, the books that myguests bring to the segment were
not written with contemporary art in mind.

(02:41):
So that's the rule, That's the rule of the game.
It has to be a book that is not about contemporary art.
And we found out in conversationthat one book for us, for both
of us, was incredibly important for our idea or notion of what

(03:01):
curating is. If you don't know what curating
is, basically it's perceptualizing, creating,
organizing, promoting exhibitions.
I think that the beauty of the fact that you can be influenced
by a book or an author, a visionthat speaks about something

(03:22):
other than your job and bringingit into your own craft, means
that even if you're not a curator, you can always take
something from these episodes. I'll tell you a little secret.
I listen to a lot of podcasts about business, about stand up
comedy, acting, because having methodologies from other areas

(03:45):
can be useful to your own. So for example, at a certain
moment, believe it or not, I wasreally stuck when it came to
public speaking. So I started listening a lot to
stand up comedians who talk about their craft.
And it really inspired me to seehow they develop an idea, how

(04:05):
they verbalize it, how they leadyou to the pun, how they deliver
the pun. And it helped me quite a bit.
So there's always information you can get that you can apply
to your own area and. This guest, let me tell you.
Does not disappoint. She is such an original thinker.
So I can tell you now that the book she chose to bring is

(04:30):
Ursula K Le Guin's very, very, very, very short text The
Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. We find out that a very, very
small shift in perspective can include a whole community of
people. So without further ado, I will.
Leave. You to the episode, As for

(04:52):
myself, I am going back to bed but you, I hope you enjoy this
episode as much as I did recording it.
And don't forget, click on thoselinks.
Help me continue this amazing adventure that is
exhibitionists. Let's do this.

(05:12):
Welcome to the segment Art Book Club.
This is a segment where my guests bring a book that has not
been particularly written with contemporary art or even visual
art in mind, but which somehow, either on a personal level or in
the collective level, it has entered the contemporary art

(05:34):
Canon. It's my honor to welcome to
exhibitionists this for the first time, the independent
curator Catherine. Catherine is a london-based
curator. She's very interested in her
curating activities and projectsin site specific events, also in

(05:56):
participatory events or projectsor exhibitions.
She's also interested in digitalarchives and much more than
that. So, Catherine, welcome to
exhibitionistas. Thank you.
Hi, Joanna. Hi.
Thank you for inviting me for this amazing project.
One of the opening you hosted inyour project space, we were

(06:17):
talking about random topics about how that it feels like to
being a curator. And obviously our conversation,
there's a gap between two of us.As you know, we haven't met
before officially and we have different experience.
You are much more experienced inthe industry.
I'm a emerging curator who just,you know, engaging this industry

(06:43):
for like 5 years or even less so.
And I was amazed by how quick webonded with each other.
Yeah, with really quick and simple question, but.
That's because you asked the question, didn't you?
You asked the question that kindof let me a bit taken about not
taken aback, but I will. It made me think, so do you want

(07:05):
to say yeah? Yeah, I guess because I always
question about the role as a curator and and we all know that
curator came from the word. Cure kudai.
Kudai in Latin. Yeah, yeah.
So, and I was asking you if you can choose one word or three

(07:29):
words to substitute the word curator, what would you choose?
Yeah. Would you want to try it again?
Yes, yes, sure. I don't remember what I told you
because weirdly I think I've hadtwo conversations recently about
that. And I remember, I don't know if
it was with you. I remember saying, for me, a

(07:49):
curator is a space specialist looking at a space,
understanding a space and with everything that it means, it can
be the demographic of the peoplewho goes into the space, the
space where the space is located.
So the the geography, all of it.Did I answer that at the time?
I don't remember. No, we yes, you, you mentioned

(08:11):
the space. You mentioned that you know, you
reimagine the space is a huge the most fascinating part for
for curation because you you said you would like thinking
about the work. Imagine, you know how the
effects are going to be look like once you put all the work

(08:32):
and you will put yourself into the shoes as a audience and then
you just re you know, just walk into the space over and over
again to re experience the wholespace yes, and I remembered that
very well and then I think that's was the point.
I all the sudden remembered the book carrier back theory of

(08:55):
fiction and I said I want to be a if I can find a word to
substitute the word curator, I want to be a carrier back.
And this morning I was thinking,is that something new that like
recently I because I read this book, then I think about this

(09:17):
concept. But actually I had a similar
thought like five years ago. I remember I was in the
interview for the curating course for Royal College of Art
and I didn't go because the tuition fee was too high.
I went to Saint Joseph Martin 1 instead.
But I remember I was being askedto answer the question of how?

(09:39):
How do you see in a curator? I said, I see a curator as an
empty box, an empty box that is capable for anything, no matter
it's beautiful or not beautiful.And that is something I just all
the sudden remembered you. Remember that?
Yes. And then this is such an

(10:01):
interesting coincidence because when I read the carrier bag was
Oh my God, the idea is so refreshing for me as a curator.
I want to be a curator or personwho carrying a bag all the time.
And I saw this something really innovating and refreshing.
And actually, I had the same thought five years ago without

(10:21):
reading a single piece of writing like this.
And I have very limited experience, like practical
experience. I just finished my BA and I
haven't really stepped into the the real industry.
Like, yeah, so that was. That's fascinating because this
being an art book club, so aboutbooks, I'm really interested in

(10:48):
the fact that you read a book that in some ways resonated with
an instinct that you had before.Yeah.
And you found in this book something that you were actually
thinking about on your own. And I think that's really
fascinating because sometimes wehave this idea of writers,

(11:11):
thinkers, authors as the these people who bring a sort of
enlightenment to the masses who are learning from them.
But actually, it's a collective effort.
And I think Ursula K Le Guin talks about that in the book,
about this idea of community andabout the fact that you are

(11:32):
building something with someone else.
Yeah. And that the fact that you
thought about that and the fact that we are thinking in terms of
empty spaces where we have to bring something in is really
interesting in the sense that itis almost as if it's like a

(11:53):
Platonic idea where ideas are somewhere and they're external
from us and we just kind of convey them at a certain point
and also brings we also bring them into certain specific
contexts. So to explain to our listeners
how so, how this conversation unfolded.

(12:14):
So you were talking about curating and I remember that
when you mentioned the book The Carrier Back Theory of Fiction
by Ursula K Le Guin as being imported for curating, I
remember saying what what? You know, I was so surprised
because it is a really importantbook for me as well.
And that's why I wanted you to be the 1st guest of this

(12:37):
segment, because I was fascinated by the fact that a
book that has nothing to do withcuration suddenly was bringing 2
curators together who both lovedthe book, probably for very
different reasons. And one of them actually had had
the idea before and kind of met Ursula K Le Guin halfway, Yeah,

(13:03):
while already having thought about this empty space.
So do you want to talk a little bit about this idea that you
have of being really focused in place, so exhibitions that are
either on public spaces or oriented towards a site specific

(13:24):
or a site where they happen, theidea of participation.
So what in your career has have you organized that would
correspond to these ideas well? I think that this question links
to to many different theories like the poetic of space.

(13:47):
So in terms of the space relatedpractice, I did a lot of
research towards participatory art and my question was always
about how a space is able to cultivate a community and and

(14:07):
through participation, how a community or people entering the
space could make changes to the space.
And then this kind of everlasting interaction make
both the space and the communitygrowing.
And this idea fascinates me. And that's really parallel with

(14:29):
this one of the core idea in this book of carrier bag theory
of fiction, which means, you know, La Queen was suggesting
you, you have a bag, you put thethings that you found interested
into this bag. And and this bag is holding for
all the voices, all the experience, all the

(14:52):
relationships that all happeningjust within this tiny space.
So she is not suggesting, you know, you have to expand your
practice into like massive space, but in a way she is
suggesting another way you put everything you know as small as
possible space to make them to say what's going to happen.

(15:16):
So wait, wait. Wait, I'm going to stop you
there. Yes.
Because that's fascinating and Iknow what you're going to talk
about, which is a project of yours.
But first of all, let's introduce the the text properly.
Yes. So Ursula K Le Guin, author,
she's known as a science fictionwriter, to be very specific.

(15:39):
She was born on October 21st, 1929.
She passed away recently, seven years ago in on the 22nd of
January of 2018. She's a Californian born there.
She lived there and she developed her work there.
She had a few stints in Europe. She was a Fulbright scholar.

(16:02):
So she came to Paris to study where she met her husband.
Then she went back and then she had another stint in Europe to
to study much later. But she's basically, she was a
california-based author and she wrote poetry, she started as a
poet, she wrote short stories. She's mainly known as a science

(16:25):
fiction writer, but she also wrote absolutely mind blowing
essays. I think she's a marvellous
essayist because she knows how to write about complicated
things in simple terms. So do you want to introduce the
book? So the book is called The

(16:47):
Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. Oh, we have the same one.
Yes, look at that. We have exactly this.
And it says used up and dirty and folded.
Yours as much as mine. Exactly, exactly.
Thank you so much for allowing me to introduce this amazing

(17:09):
text because it's also a good opportunity for me to return to
this text as it's always so refreshing and inspiring every
time when I go back because it'salways reconnects me to my
recent thought, to my surroundings, my recent
encounters. And it's always give me a really

(17:31):
refreshing idea of how how I can, you know, deal with those
sorts. And actually, I was thinking
about this introduction. I found it so challenging
because the whole text is so short and the idea is actually
so simple and straightforward. But the depths of it, the
constellation of salt is sparks actually make any kind of grave

(17:55):
introduction with reduced is what this text want to open up.
So I mean, Ouch, I'm sure. You can do.
It I'm sure you can do it. So in short, the Carrier Back
serial of fiction was written byUrsula K Lequin in 1986, and it

(18:20):
was first published in Woman of Vision Essays by Woman Writing
Science Fiction edited by DennisDuPont in 1988.
So it is very short radical essay that reimagines both
culture, human history and storytelling based on feminist

(18:42):
anthropology, which we can expand on that later.
She suggested that the first human toll was not a weapon, but
a contender, a bag for carrying and sharing.
From this she challenges the weapon shaped or spare shaped

(19:03):
hero center story for battles and conquers, etcetera.
She was proposing that that fiction can be a carrier back, a
vessel for many voices, everydayexperience and collective
survival. So today this idea continues
influence feminist ecological writing and as well As for

(19:27):
artists and curators is is also play a very important role to
tell us what is another story, what is a more relational ways
of storytelling. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a
wonderful book. It is true that it has.
I mean, Ursula K Le Guin has hada sort of a revival or maybe

(19:50):
discovery, I have to say, not being someone who has had a an
English education. So I arrived as a grown up to
the UK already. I came to Ursula K Le Guin
through Donna Haraway. So I was reading Donna Haraway,
who has also become a name that has been.

(20:11):
Kind of thrown around between curators and and contemporary
art thinkers and philosophers. And Donna Harroway is someone
who is, she has a scientific background, but she now is a
teacher of new ideas. I think the course she teaches
has a very strange name, like a sort of new ideas and narratives

(20:35):
in contemporary and epistemology.
You know, something like this. And I remember reading Donna
Harroway Way specifically about sustainability and about notions
of ecology and how to be, how toshift your perspective in order
to align yourself with the Earthand the planet, the biosphere.

(20:57):
And she kept referencing as La Que Le Guin.
And one day I was in a bookshop and I saw this little book and I
thought, oh, this is a great wayto read the first story by
science fiction author Ursula K Le Guin.
And little did I know, it was anessay.
So I was really not expecting toread this.

(21:19):
And it was a really important moment for me.
I remember reading this and being feeling elated by the text
and as you say so well, feeling a bit stupid because it's such a
simple idea at the same time, like you say, so well, like what

(21:42):
if the most important objects? And I'm fascinated by
prehistory, by the way, I read alot about prehistory.
Mm hmm. And I'm not a specialist,
obviously, but I try to read as much as I can.
And I remember thinking, why didI never think about that?
Because obviously when you are aperson, perhaps nomadic,

(22:05):
building houses from natural materials that you have to build
and build over again than to tryand fight food.
Isn't it obvious that the first thing you need is something to
carry the fruits that you have collected for you and for your
friends? I remembered.
I remembered me so I when I was when I was a kid, I was
fascinated by the the novel called Robinson a Crusoe.

(22:30):
Me too, yes. And I like, I like the novel so
much, I read it over and over again because it's so
fascinating to see a human beingfrom modern society and all the
sudden through to an island and you have to rebuild everything
from scratch. And I remember very clearly that
the I couldn't. We need to revisit, revisit

(22:51):
that. That's the next art book class.
I think that's your next episodewith Exhibition Esters I.
Remember very vividly there was 1 chapter.
It's talking about how Robinson is making the pot.
And it was right there, wasn't it?
And. That was right there and we
never like have this kind of really clear sort of which toe

(23:15):
was most useful you. Haven't told us how you have
come across the book. How did you find out about it?
When did you read it? How did you feel about it?
How? How did that happen?
How did you encounter this book?So it was very interesting and
also surprising. So like 2 years ago actually

(23:38):
last year, I did a artistic change project which I call out
for all London artist to submit a artist lunch box to me.
And therefore I could carry all the lunch box to Vienna because

(23:59):
I'm going to do a curatorial residency over there.
So I'm going to stay in Vienna for like 10 days.
So I'm going to carry all the lunch box to Vienna and meet
another bunch of artist and thenanother bunch of each artist
from Vienna would receive 1 lunch box that prepares by
London artist. And then the Vienna artist could

(24:21):
use the the launch books that made by London artist to to
create a new work. And then one of the artists who
is was participating from Londonwhen he was submitting his books
to me, he said, oh, your projects.
You should read the this text byUrsula Queen because your

(24:44):
project sounds really similar with what is this books the book
suggesting. And I was like, oh, tell me
more. And then I got this book and
then I read it in Vienna actually during my residency.
Found it fascinating because what I was suggesting for the

(25:06):
artist to do with the the lunch box because it's not actually
asking people to prepare actual lunch.
Instead, I asked everyone to find a box, a lunch box, for
example, and and look at your studio or your home or wherever
your practice is based in and put materials that is unwanted,

(25:32):
wasted or sabotaged in your studio into this very little box
prompt was a really, really, really I will say open yes, even
you give me a a box of air. You say there's an air from a
studio. That's even fine as long as you
tell me is this an air from yourstudio?

(25:56):
So it's like anything object based or not object based,
saying this is all fine. It can't be valuable thing.
It can't be. And for example, if you're a
pantel, you have off cut from your canvas a draft or a scat

(26:16):
that you just thrown away and you don't want to really thrown
away because you still want to keep in your studio in case you
need it one day, things like that.
But I also give a little bit a suggestion that I hope those
materials or this whole box can reflect you and your practice,

(26:36):
but it has to be not unvaluable stuff like like rubbish, it has
to be rubbish, things like that.And and then I, I did that open
call and just in 10 days I received 25 boxes was so funny.
And people just carry little boxand come to me.

(26:56):
And then and then, and then the the artist who was so funny, the
artist who was recommending me this book, he told me, Oh, this
practice is amazing because, youknow, you always retreat your
studio space as a, let's say, a sacred space, A sacred space for

(27:20):
producing artworks. And those artworks have to be,
you know, go out of the, you know, get out from the studio,
go to the galleries and be readyfor the critiques from the
public and curators. And then once you start looking

(27:41):
of every corner of your studio, it's just so funny that because
you now you all finally realize the whole ecosystem that you
build into the studio and those little things that grown up with
you, they are maybe they are rubbish.
They are drafts, they are sketches.

(28:02):
They are like, you know, finish the tubes or cut off woods or
stretch a bars. You've been accumulating all
this, but all to solve this essential goal of the studio
practice, which is producing artwork.
But because you're so focusing on this artwork production, you
almost forget all this little thing that around you.

(28:25):
And he found this practice fascinating because because once
you put your eyes, put your attention to these little
things, the whole studio is likea total different thing to you.
It's like another world. It's like what you said, it's an
ecosystem. It's a ecosystem.
Everything participates, even the unwanted things like you

(28:47):
said, participate and have an active role in this ecosystem.
That's what the artist meant, right?
Yes, and then and then once he starts to put in some because he
need to be selective to you know, to put things into that
very box. So and he realised, Oh my God,

(29:07):
some little things that he nevernoticed actually contribute a
huge pot. Maybe like for example, a
biscuit box that he always ate like kind of biscuit he always
eat during the studio practice. And then you now you have really
refreshing salt out these biscuits because you have this
intimate relationship with this very kind of biscuit.

(29:28):
And then he put everything into that box, even a sock.
I remembered very well about hiswhen I opened the box.
So that Oh my God, this box smell like the other world.
So imagine like all the things and also the small things he

(29:50):
made and like little object, he's also making sculptures
using found objects. So this little object he found
is really difficult to use, but he don't want, he doesn't want
to throw them away. So he kind of accumulated them
in the corner of the studio and he's found.
Oh my God, that's fascinating because once you start putting

(30:12):
everything in this box, you justfeel like your whole journey of
student practice is condensed inthis tiny box and and it feels
like they are not trash anymore.They become the most valuable
thing. They become a new piece of work.
It's called Jacob Clayton, a London-based artist and whose

(30:35):
practice is about about paintings, about fond objects
and also things that are playfulas.
Soon as you talked about the books, I thought about Marcel
Duchamp, because he really did think a lot about art, like we
think about curating with as much love as a sharp critical

(31:00):
sense as well. And he also created what he
called in French La boet en vallis, which means the books in
the suitcase or the books as suitcase.
And so he created a museum in a box with images, right, of his
own work. And I remember being also really

(31:24):
struck by this and being really interested because I think as
curators, we always think about the museum with reverence, but
also with a sort of a healthy distance also of the artificial
setting that the museum can be as well.
Would you agree with that? How did you come?

(31:45):
How you agree only with the respect, not with the distance.
Or the distance. Yes I do.
I do agree with the distance. Yes, I know the distance create
the aura. Yes, it creates the aura, but
also in some ways we kind of also know that exhibitions occur

(32:06):
in many of the kinds of spaces other than museums.
So artists run spaces, pop up spaces, spaces that are not
white cubes. It's very rare that actually you
get to exhibit work in in a white cube.
But then you also start to kind of deliriously think, okay, So
what if everything? What if the world was a museum

(32:29):
and everything was? And there's a film called
Midnight Cowboy, I think, where at a certain time William
Burroughs is walking in the street.
So the the writer and with his cane, I think he has a cane and
he's showing, he's pointing at things with his cane and he's

(32:49):
saying this is a work of art this and he's just pointing at
things that make up the urban space basically.
So as curators, we do end up in this kind of delirium of what a
space can be and what an exhibition space can be.
So I'm, I'm pretty sure that youhave, I mean, the way the reason

(33:12):
why you thought about the lunch boxes may be rooted in very
practical reasons, but also veryaneric or kind of delirious
reasons. How did you come to the idea so?
It was very practical because they are portable.
Exactly. Which is what Duchamp said about
his own easy e-mail box. I I saw, I saw his his project

(33:39):
outlines well after I made this because I was looking for
reference to, you know, find similar projects like, you know,
yeah, maybe resonate with me, but in different aspects.
So because I was doing this curatorial rest dancing was
supported by Austrian Culture Forum in London and they were

(34:03):
supporting me to do a research trip in Vienna for like 10 days.
And then my goal, they were asking me as a contracted
independent curator, they will ask me to select like 5 artists
from Vienna, like Vienna based 5artists to collaborate with

(34:27):
another 5 artists I selected from London to do a final
exhibition. And and the selection based on
my the same that I came up at the time, which is making making
expensive. I was interested in how artists
can use one single materials to make things expensive.

(34:50):
It can be tangible, inexpensive like huge.
I yeah, I did selected one artist who make huge things or
you can come up with tiny ideas,but you are so obsessed with
this tiny idea, you just keep repeating, repeating, repeating.
So some artists I selected also their practice also involves

(35:10):
reputation. So I had this very initial idea,
but I found it's really limitingfor me to just like 5 artists
from both London and Vienna. And I want to expand this idea
and, and then I, I was thinking,OK, I'm going to stay in Vienna

(35:32):
for more than 10 days. I can definitely do more things
than just, you know, like havingconversation with artists or,
you know, visiting museum. I can definitely do something
more interactive with local artist.
And then I was thinking like howI can make something make the

(35:52):
connection better between the London art thing and Vienna art
thing. I need to start from people and
and then, but I need to find a really key portal for them to
connect with each other and and it has to be practical because I

(36:12):
don't have budget to support me bring a massive projects back
and forth or that's. What I wanted to get to because
I love the fact that in the book, the, the first thing that
is mentioned is food as a sort of a really basic, we'll go into

(36:34):
that. So I, I will explain that later,
but one of the references made is the way people fed themselves
in prehistory in the book, in the in Asla K Lewin's text.
And what I loved about that textis that it connects the most
world building value oriented theory through the most

(36:59):
practical thing, which is how tokeep alive, how to get food and
what kind of diet to have in order to have a good living and
to raise kids and to just live as a community.
And you raise this issue and in curating, a lot of the times you

(37:20):
have that terrifying situation where you have an idea for a
project, but then you have the shipping costs and then you have
also the costs that come with building a sonography in the
space. So there's a lot of costs that
people don't think about when you're creating an exhibition

(37:40):
and when you're making decisionsfor an exhibition, particularly
exhibitions. There are these kind of programs
of, oh, we're going to connect this city and that other city.
And then as a curator, you're like, you have 2000 lbs of
budget and you think this cannotwork.
I'm not. I don't want to say that you had
a very small budget. That's not what I'm saying.

(38:00):
I'm exaggerate is hyperbole, butthose are kind of the people
think of curators as dealing with big ideas, but we also deal
with very, very, very practical things, which I think is why
this book resonates so much withcurating as well.
Yeah, you have to survive and inorder to survive, we have to
come up with the most simple, but we think it's innovative

(38:26):
ideas yes and another important thing is, is then another core
point from this book is how to make thing more collective,
because you need to think about you know, you need to be able to
create something, a quick space that is capable to hold more
things, more voices to me for this project the same and I hate

(38:50):
this. I mean, I of course, I enjoy, I
have this kind of power, I have to admit it, to be able to
select the artist I like to collaborate with towards the
exhibition in the end. But the same time I hate this
idea because I was, I would think why the how I, I, why

(39:11):
should be me holding this power of selecting those artists and
artists they need to be selectedin most of cases.
And then why I should have this killing power, you know, and I
hate this, that that's why I found participatory art is so
fascinating because you give people options and, and these

(39:34):
options are open for to everyone.
You can participate if you like.So this is like more mutual
beneficial collaboration insteadof me giving you opportunity.
So I, so that's why I want to create this kind of open call
based participatory art. So people submit as they like,

(39:59):
and people can participate to interpret the launch box
afterwards as they want. So, and that opens up, opens for
more voices and, and I don't have to do the selection.
And I remembered when I was collecting the box, I was
carrying my luggage, I was collecting.

(40:20):
So some artists, they submit to me in person, but some of them
they said if it would be great if you, you can help if you can
collect the box and I'm happy todo that.
So I did a really quick travel around London between artist
studios and I was collecting with my luggage and one of the
artists said, Oh my God, I like this open call because you are

(40:40):
not selecting. It's like she was hugging me
like, I like this whale of, you know, you organize an open call.
Another thing that, as Lake Lequin does, is to challenge,
yeah, the notion of the hero. Yeah, so.
She kind of gives you a, a starting point to the book where

(41:05):
you think she's headed towards an explanation of what's the
structure of storytelling, what makes a good story.
And so she starts by describing something really interesting,
which is that contrary to what we believe it was.

(41:26):
So the the prehistoric and Neolithic diet was very much
veg, vegetable based, not based,perhaps adding bugs and mollusks
as she says, and little rats, rabbits.
So there wasn't much hunting. And so she says something that I

(41:49):
find really, really interesting,which again comes to this notion
of practicalities, which is thatthe average, so I'm quoting
here, the average prehistoric person could make a nice living
in about a 15 hour work week, end of quotes.
And so she's saying that becauseof foraging, basically because

(42:12):
there was a real knowledge of the environment, you knew where
the rabbit would come if you really needed some protein.
But basically she's very focusedon wild oats because oats really
are extremely nourishing and arethe basis of the foods that was
apparently or at the time, I don't know how studies are at at

(42:34):
the moment, but at the time was a big part of the basis of food.
And so she talks about these 15 hours of subsistence as leading
to a really nice life where people who could sing would sing
by the fire, those who could sewwould sew.
Those who could be funny were making, you know, a spectacle of

(42:57):
themselves to make other people laugh.
But remained the skilless people, the people who didn't
have any particular talent, who maybe were getting a bit bored
and so therefore decided to go hunting big games.
So hunting the mammoth. And I love how she shifts.
And I remember reading this at the time, and not quite because

(43:19):
she speaks in the first person. So she puts herself in the place
of someone. He was a prehistoric person.
Yeah. And she says so quote.
It is hard to tell a real gripping tale of how I wrested a
wild oats seed from its husk. And then another, and then
another, and then another and then another.

(43:39):
And then I scratched my nut bites and all said something
funny. And we went to the Creek and got
a drink and watched newts for a while and then I found another
patch of oats. UN quote.
So she's talking in the first person and she's saying, I can't
fight, right? My story isn't as interesting as

(44:01):
the story that the hunters are bringing into the community.
So what they're bringing is not only an action, but they're also
bringing a hero. So the story not only has
action, it has a hero. It is powerful.
And so as I was reading this, I was thinking, oh, so she's
giving us the structure of, you know, basically the basic thing

(44:25):
that you study when you're studying literature in school,
which is you need to have this, and then you need to have a
crisis. And then someone solves the
crisis. There's an opposition, then
there's a victory, and then the story's over.
And I was a bit disappointed until she flips the scripts,
which I should have seen coming,obviously, when she started

(44:47):
talking about the skill as people who become hunters and
that she changes the perspectivecompletely by bringing up
Virginia Woolf. It's a really like you say, it's
a very simple text, but she goesvery far.
So she brings Virginia Woolf up and then she brings someone who
I didn't know who was Elizabeth Fisher.

(45:11):
He was a a writer and an editor who published the book called
Women's. Well, actually the she doesn't
quote the whole title in the text, so the book is called
Women. 'S creation, sexual evolution
and the shaping of society. Exactly.
And it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in 1979 and I

(45:33):
think published in 1977. So suddenly the the story is
completely flipped. The perspectives are completely
different, and that's when I washit like a ton of bricks by
reading this thing. And it is a little bit.
There's a parallel there with the notion of the curator as

(45:54):
Hero did. Did you?
Yeah, it's like what I just mentioned, Like I don't want to
have that kind of superpower of being able to save or kill
certain people. Exactly.
That's why I feel so resonated ways and also if we look ahead,
there are someone who is more super, have more superpowers,

(46:17):
more like a hero and someone is beyond my league and I can't
even see him or or shave or theyand I can't.
Maybe I will be realized when I was killed.
I mean all the sudden, you know what I mean?
Like it's really, it's, it's really parallel with this whole
world. I mean, especially art industry,

(46:39):
there's always certain powerful or dominating voices that
leading the trend or or manipulating the market that we
can't even say. Yeah, we can't name names well
the the opinion maker. Well, in the past we can.
For example, when I studied curating, I remember that my

(47:03):
teachers who were basically male, I, I must say, were had
this reverence towards Harold Zeman, for example, who was
presented as this genius. So suddenly there was a shift
when I was younger and studied philosophy and then went into

(47:26):
aesthetics and then decided to do a master's in curating
studies. There was this shift between the
artist as the hero. And then I was fed this story as
no, no, no, you are the hero. The curator is the hero.
You're the one who is the opinion maker.
Look at Harold Zeman and I remember because I come from

(47:47):
literature, from my first love was writing literature, fiction,
and I remember when attitudes become form.
So the name of the big document exhibition that Zaman curated I
believe in 196869. So I remember live in your head

(48:08):
when attitudes become form this mega title.
And being someone who's very, very taken by words, I remember
thinking, Oh my, Oh my, this is such an incredible title.
This is life changing because itdoesn't really describe or
doesn't, it doesn't. It's not contained by movements,

(48:30):
names of movements. It kind of opens up the minds to
whatever everyone was doing at the time.
And you kind of are fascinated by this figure.
And I was much more interested in the way he had come to that
vision of things rather than howhe worked.

(48:54):
What was possible. Why were the names?
Why was that group of artists important at the time?
But one must also say that Harold Zaman then curated
another exhibition where artistsinvited friends.
So there was this idea which kind of opened up the scope of

(49:20):
who, of the decisional power of the curator.
But maybe it also emphasized what you were just describing,
which is as an opinion maker. A curator invites the people
they know and organizes exhibitions with their friends.
And to me, I, I always like keepquestioning myself every time

(49:43):
when I curate show because I didcurate some, a lot of group
shows. And I I'm not going to deny that
I'm never like invite my close friend.
Instead, I always invite people around me like because even
they're not close, but because of my circle, because of my
maybe my culture background. Also, my experience shaped the

(50:08):
very particular people group of people around me.
And I can only see them. I can also see people like apart
from like those group of people,but the same is something might
stop me from very inside. Maybe they are not really
approachable to me. But The thing is, I would say I

(50:29):
would definitely keep trying to approach the people that are not
in my because I'm expanding thiscircle by inviting more people
that I have. I have no common friend ways.
I have no overlap ways so and I found it's fascinating all the

(50:52):
time because every time I've been rejected by artists a few
times, even I bring budget, bring artists fee to them.
Is there still always a reason for them to reject me and
multiple reasons. Maybe my tutorial reproach or my

(51:14):
tutorial premise doesn't really resonate with them.
They found it irrelevant. That's all fine.
But I do have experience with artists who have no idea who the
hell am I, who are more very experienced in the industry, but
they still like very open, very kind and embracing the new ideas

(51:36):
and embracing to collaborate with new people.
And that gave me a lot of motivation.
And that is also a round of the central.
I guess the suggestion from thisbook as well is you have to make
yourself be capable of holding more things.
Therefore, this, this very this container of you, your world or

(52:01):
your friend circle can be able to create a more exciting story.
Yeah. I'm interested in the ethical
concern and priority of curating, not being, not
undermining the expertise that you have, because if you sit

(52:26):
with another curator with exactly the same profile as you,
you will have your expertise. They will have their expertise,
which will probably not be the same.
So Elizabeth Fisher is a really interesting character because
she, I thought she was an anthropologist, but actually she

(52:48):
isn't. She was a writer who then
produced this book, which is a feminist book first and foremost
that draws on sociology, ethnology and anthropology.
And that says that the women were the first inventors of the
hunter gatherer face, which is really interesting.

(53:09):
And so she starts by saying why are women considered as property
that has been exchanged and sold?
So that's one of the first questions of the book.
And she associates our idea of nature with the idea of women.
So nature is also something to be conquered and possessed as

(53:31):
much as the female body. Ursula K Le Guin directly quotes
the book very quickly in the text.
I'm interested here in the question of narratives that you
raised, which is the main narrative, and the underlying
communitarian narratives that are being overlooked.

(53:51):
So for me, when I read the the text, it the the feminists
perspective was really interesting because, and I see
the way you read it as it being really effective because it's
not only defending a female perspective of nature, of life,

(54:13):
of anthropology and of knowledge.
It is saying you call this female and you put this in that
role. But actually this is all about
community. Yeah.
I when I doing the the curatorial practice and I never
think, I mean this is something as you just said, you think I

(54:35):
have more experience, but I if Ihave to count it, I don't think
I have really long profile, but I treat every project like a
child and it's like something I need to protect with all my
effort. And that's why I think overthink

(54:55):
even too much. I worried about oh is the
participate happy with the result, I need to ask them for
the consent for sure if I need to mention them in the future,
have to credit them properly, things like that.
So I build a website to documentall the launch books.
Though I may be a family curatorbut I never realize it.

(55:21):
That is a better way of phrase it.
So I do things based on my instinct.
So I do think because I feel it's right, because it's my
inner soul is calling me to do this.
Therefore, I guess because I'm afemale in the end, that explains

(55:42):
how I do things in that way. So I would rather interpret in
this way because and I was OK. I'm a feminist artist and so I'm
feminist curator. So I do everything feministly.
OK, I will realize, Oh my God, this is so beautiful.
But I never do that with very particular intention.

(56:02):
I follow my very instinct. So, and another thing I found
this video also very feminist but very natural to me is be
able to to gather things to think about future, to think
about longer future, to be able to gather resources and sustain

(56:23):
the current make this project sustainable.
There's something really, reallynatural and it's.
Interesting that you were talking about sustainability
and. Availability as well.
Accessibility. It's something nowadays like you
know, I work in URL, we've been kept educated like so the.

(56:45):
University of London. Yeah, University of Arts London,
as staff member, we always have this kind of session of how to
make your session or how to makethe project more accessible,
more diverse, more sustainable. It's something that people keep

(57:06):
yelling all the time nowadays. The thing is, it's something so
natural, that's why this folk fascinates me.
It's like we've been yelling those manifestos all the time
and we encourage everyone to be accessible, be sustainable.
But people pre history, people already been doing that without

(57:27):
any single thoughts of what is exactly is sustainable.
So and that is really refreshingfor me.
And and then once you understandwhy people are doing this, you
will be able to doing everythingmore naturally, more really
following your heart more genuinely instead of just to

(57:51):
tick the book you. Were talking about prehistory
and you were talking about the way the Ursula K Lewin describes
the way the the Neolithic peoplelive.
So in a sort of a harmonious relationship with things.
The exhibition space is a museum, is an Art Center.
But you're seeing that maybe theexhibition space is something

(58:13):
else, is somewhere else. To answer this question, I also
I also want to mention the very emotional point for me and also
why this book resonant with me, especially when the Queen is
talking about woman or or a kindof man that is able to making a

(58:35):
sack or carrying a bag to hold things together, things to open
up things for more people for longer future.
And that's resonate with becausethis kind of care embedded in
her text is really important to me throughout my all my tutorial
project. And I didn't even realize that.

(58:56):
So that very moment was I put when I was doing this artist
lunch boxing, I put all the lunch box was about 25 lunch
boxes into a luggage. So I didn't even prepare a lot
of my my clothes because I need to save space.

(59:20):
I need to save space. So I wonder.
About that. I wear 2 coat with me when I was
landing the plan, but this is really ambitious to make the
whole space accessible to everyone.
This is very ambitious, but I would try my best and I'm being

(59:40):
learning and also improving so but this would be my definitely
a huge part of my learning journey as a curator.
You're. Not at the centre of the
operation. You're not the decision maker
and you are not the person who'sthe hero, right?
We were talking about establishing a parallel between
the curator and the hero, but I would argue that by setting up

(01:00:06):
such an original. Frame of work.
And such an original setting of people sending you their lunch
boxes, you going into the studioto collect a lunch box that you
gave a prompt for, and then carrying the the lunch boxes to
Vienna and then creating this almost performative distribution

(01:00:33):
of the lunch boxes and rearranging the workshop
setting. I think you render yourself far
more visible and far more remarkable than any person who
would just have sent an e-mail to an artist saying, I want to
borrow that work of yours, please.
They would have sent, yes, speakto my gallery or speak to me.

(01:00:55):
If they don't have a gallery, fill in, in the loan forms, the
work is shipped, they're invitedto the inauguration or not.
And in some ways the curator becomes really unremarkable
because they're just a person who had an idea, contacted them,
You know, make perhaps an effortto send a text, explain the

(01:01:18):
idea, do a Zoom call. But then the idea of curating is
that the artist is at the forefront of the exhibition.
It's not you, but here you are much more visible as someone who
is and you're making the carriervisible.
And my, my, the second part of my argument would be, I think

(01:01:43):
that the carrier is a really important object because it
requires, if you think about it,and you were talking about
Robinson Crusoe in the beginningof the episode and the, the fact
that a whole chapter is dedicated at creating a pot.
It's not easy to make a container when you live in the
prehistoric time. It means that you have to weave

(01:02:05):
for hours and hours and hours and hours.
You have to work on the material.
You have to create fabric for Christ's sakes, which is just
unimaginable when you think about it, that you had to make
fabric like with your bare hands, of course, with your
stencils and tools, and obviously lots of traditions

(01:02:26):
that were passed on from generation to generation.
But still, the container is a beautiful object in itself that
requires so much skill. So in some ways you kind of
descended from your pedestal of the curator as the maximum
authority. You placed yourself in the
creative level alongside the artists in some ways.

(01:02:51):
I feel. Thank you.
I mean this is very interesting comment.
What I just you know, on this project also my way love being a
curator. Something I found really
relevant with resonated with what the Queen said because she
very, very humbly said she didn't disagree with the hero

(01:03:11):
Centre story. She just said she differs with
all this kind of story. Or maybe she's not human at all.
If a human means you need to kill, you need to use a weapon,
then she's not human at all. And this is where she transit to
being a maybe a defective human.Do you?

(01:03:33):
Mind if I leave, if I read the the message?
Because you, you are quite right.
It's such a beautiful. The society, the civilization
they were talking about, these theoreticians was evidently
theirs. They owned it, they liked it.
They were human. Fully human.
Bashing, sticking, thrusting, killing.

(01:03:54):
Wanting to be human too. I sought for evidence that I
was, but if that's what it took to make a weapon and kill with
it, then evidently I was either extremely defective as a human
being or not human at all. Yeah, I guess.
I guess I just really like the way she disagree with this kind

(01:04:16):
of, you know, a haunting story. But she didn't say, Oh, I
disagree. She say she says instead, she
said, OK, if that if that means being a heal isn't you are
human, then I'm not human at allbecause I'm not like this kind
of people and I don't like killing.
So I that's why I feel like whenyou are talking about my

(01:04:38):
project, you know, you said I did too much like I.
Did not say you did much. I said you did.
You did something very You were weaving.
Basically you were weaving the container, which is you.
You. You did a huge amount of work

(01:04:59):
that puts you in the place of inquiry, of questioning for the
artists and for the other peopleinvolved in the project.
Yeah. And but yeah, it's also, as you
said, like the normal typical understanding of being a curator
is like writing emails, approachartists, approach galleries,

(01:05:20):
approach collectors. They all like really, let's say
intelligent work. You sit in front of your laptop
and then you and then you organize your thought, you
deliver the project in this way.But to me, I mean, I'm not
denying I also like being curated like this.

(01:05:40):
Most of the work I have done in front of my laptop.
But to me, this project is so unique for me is I literally
like you said, I waved the wholeproject with my own bare hands.
And that's something I learned so much from this project

(01:06:02):
because because this kind of hand on experience cannot be
replaced by any kind of, you know, a laptop based work.
And again, and I, I feel when I was on the plane and when I was

(01:06:22):
carrying the luggage to another city, I feel like I kind of
understanding curator more like carrying and carrying.
And that was really refreshing. And I want to be a curator like
this because I felt a really deep pleasure of doing that.

(01:06:44):
And I know there was a lot of laborious work carrying around,
travelling around, but I'm not saying, but there was all this
labor, all this work. They are part of this whole
project, making this project available for more people,
making every participant comfortable with participating

(01:07:08):
to this project, making the connection, making the whole
atmosphere, the whole experiencesomething into something that
they they kind of never experienced before.
It's something I really, really want to achieve and that drives
me to do that I. Think our conversation started

(01:07:31):
by us saying that idea that you thought you had.
Actually, many people have had that idea before.
You're just carrying that idea, right?
But the way you carry it and is at least making a decision of
carrying that and not something else.
So you are the person bringing that change.

(01:07:53):
Should that be celebrated as a heroic thing?
I don't think so. It's just a thing.
It's just an it's just an exhibit.
Even artists, I think shouldn't be celebrated like that.
Even Ursula K Le Guin should notbe.
And she's the first one to say, this is not my idea, this is
Elizabeth. Elizabeth's idea so.
No one one should be put in a pedestal.

(01:08:16):
That's what I think. Not artists, not writers, not
curators, not podcasters, not older people, not younger
people. But it is a thing, it is a
reality that I have 20 year career, you have a five year
career. I know Portuguese history, you

(01:08:36):
know, I don't know what history you do.
And so we all have competences and we all bring something to
the table and we all have value.And I think that you, it's
important to know one's value. It's important to respect
others. But before you respect others,
you have to respect yourself as well.
And I think this consciousness of your, your perspective is

(01:09:01):
very important. And an empty box is not just an
empty box. Oh, it is made in a certain
material. Yeah.
It was designed in a certain way.
There's no neutrality. And also the same the same that
you put into the box also matters a lot.

(01:09:23):
Yeah, more so Yeah. So back to the the large box
project. I mean, without those artists,
those very open artists who are so excited with this kind of
idea and without their contribution, they are really,
really generous. Some of the the box they
submitted was like so beautiful,like a treasure box.

(01:09:45):
I. Have a question for you, which
is the, so the, the, the value of I, I'm intrigued by what you
said, which I, I don't think I've ever thought about, which
is this idea of carrying. I'm really interested in that
idea of being a carrier of something as a curator.

(01:10:05):
What does that mean in terms of action?
And what do you see yourself carrying beyond the artwork,
obviously. I think this is very, very good
question. And also been thinking about
that a lot. Like why would I like to
describe myself as a carrier instead of yeah, I found it's

(01:10:30):
more accurate than curator because cure is a cure.
Feels like I'm a doctor. I'm doing some surgery.
Absolutely. I'll do some surgery with to the
our work then they're not I'll or.
A Wellness, a Wellness provider because you're healing or
something? Yeah.
You're feeling something, but it's it's more like you kind of

(01:10:53):
presume that our work they are ill.
It makes me feel like I'm personwho is walking on this journey
of being a curator. And on this journey in I might
encounter many things. I encountered you today.
Tomorrow I might encounter another person.
Even I'm watching ATV program, Iencounter some sort.

(01:11:18):
So all these encounters are veryimportant to me.
If I see myself as curator, I think.
That's really interesting point.It's a beautiful way of putting
it, I have to say. And also, I think the
interesting point is the personal.
Yeah. Was it intentional or do you

(01:11:38):
really believe that it's a personal personal?
Preference. That's curating is bound to the
person's experience. I would say very much so,

(01:11:58):
although we would try to, I would try to avoid, make
everything too personal. But The thing is, it's something
you can't really avoid. It's something because I'm a
person. In the end, I would definitely,
but my, my, my choice, I would say my choice might be made even

(01:12:21):
before me. So it might be made because of
my culture, because all the education I received, because
this whole environment is fadingme with some informations.
Therefore I made my choice and this choice is made in by the
combination of my my personal preference and the wider,

(01:12:43):
broader quarter context. So I embrace my this this fact
that I might make some decision because this is my personal
decision, but also I think it's something more beyond it's

(01:13:05):
driven me to do that decision. Also the the description I just
used maybe a bit abstract, like a person carry a bag on a
journey. But I think this is the most
accurate way to describe my my feeling as being a curator.
Because you do encounter so manynew things.

(01:13:29):
And the most important thing is having this open mind and always
aware that you are on the journey, that you are observing,
you are absorbing things around you, the informations.
And you feel responsible. You feel responsible because
because since you have this finish, this action of

(01:13:52):
collecting things, it was like, OK, this idea is so fascinating,
I need to put on my list and I will think about that later.
So. So to so to end this really
lovely conversation where I learnt so much and kind of
shifted perspectives, which I think is what this book is

(01:14:14):
about, is about shifting perspectives in a way that seems
so obvious and yet you haven't been looking at.
So I feel that that's what you brought to me today.
Why don't we choose the bits in the final part of the text that
you could read? So do you want to read your your

(01:14:36):
final paragraph towards the end?Yes, because this paragraph is
mentioned something we haven't yet mentioned, but I think it's
is good enough to understand what Laquin is trying to
suggest. So this paragraph is saying one

(01:14:56):
relationship among elements in the novel may well be that of
conflicts, but the reduction of narrative to conflicts is
absurd. Conflicts, competition, stress,
struggle, etcetera, within the narrative conceived as carrier
bag or belly or box or house or medicine bundle may be seen as

(01:15:18):
necessary elements of a whole, which itself cannot be
characterized either as conflicts or as harmony, since
its purpose is NASA resolution nor stasis, but continuing
process. Yeah, and what's funny is that
my exit is the next paragraph. That's good.

(01:15:41):
So this is really interesting because in some ways, do you
think she's saying that the the only she's not against conflict?
No. That conflict is just a small
part, yes. Is is she's trying to
decentralize the idea of conflicts because as you said at

(01:16:06):
the very beginning when you studied literature, you were
taught that the conflicts are they are men main reason to
drive the whole narrative. But for Laquaine, narrative is
just part of the story and the same with all the other elements
as a whole. And the final purpose for the

(01:16:26):
whole story of the whole story to interpret the ordinal.
So to incorporate in the conflicts is just trying to make
everything keep going. It's not.
The ultimate goal is not to highlight the result or the
outcome of this conflicts. And so in some ways, you're

(01:16:49):
having a really narrow perspective of what being alive
is, rather than expanding like you were saying in the
beginning, like that your goal is expansion, I highlighted.
So what comes next? Which is so she says, quote.
Finally, it's clear that the hero does not look well in this
bag. He needs a stage or a pedestal

(01:17:12):
or a pinnacle. You put him in a bag and he
looks like a rabbit, like a potato.
That is why I like novels instead of heroes.
They have people in them. Very beautiful.
She's incredible. What a small text.
I think it's probably going to be the smallest text, the

(01:17:32):
smallest text someone's going tobring to the art book club
segment And yet. And so.
Yeah. Well, thank you so, so, so, so
much. This was so pleasurable and so
enlightening and such a pleasurealso to revisit this text.
So thank you so, so much, Catherine.
I mean, thank you. I mean, I, it was such a long

(01:17:53):
conversation, but for me was really, I mean, I was able to
keep energetic all the time because you were so, you know,
the conversation was so intriguing and you will always
be able to, you know, mention something that I also never
really think about before. And you let me to, because let

(01:18:14):
me to, to reflect on my projectsonce again, to reflect on my
career as curator or my perception of being a curator
once again. I mean, this is lovely.
Thank you so much, Joanna. Listen, I hope you come back.
And to you, dear listeners, thank you so much for sticking

(01:18:35):
around. This has been a huge pleasure.
Catherine did say it was a very long conversation, so you will
know that this will have been edited quite a bit.
We did talk for more than two hours, so yeah, thanks again and
bye bye. Exhibition Nesters is an
independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna Pyar

(01:18:56):
Nevers. We have episodes every two weeks
and this season, season 3, is a bit of a turning point.
We have 5 new episode types, from more experimental art
travel logs or art stories to conversational formats about
solo exhibitions with people whoare not part of the industry.

(01:19:18):
Because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life.
If you're new here, you have a whole catalog of episodes to
enjoy this cover them at your own pace.

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Ursula K. Le Guin with curator Catherine Li - ART BOOK CLUB

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ursula K. Le Guin with curator Catherine Li - ART BOOK CLUB