ART INSIDER: Exhibition as Safe Space?–Interview with Curators Gemma Rolls Bentley and E-J Scott

ART INSIDER EPISODE

→ Stay connected to the Exhibitionistas flow, ⁠SIGN UP: https://joanaprneves.substack.com/s/e...

→ Do you want to support our third season? Donate ⁠HERE⁠: https://exhibitionistaspodcast.com/su...

→ Like comment and rate the show.EPISODE:

INTERVIEW with curators Gemma Rolls-Bentley and E-J Scott around their exhibition "Talisman", presented by Cardion Arts in Collaboration with The Museum of Transology.

https://cardionarts.org/2025-exhibition-talisman: Group exhibition of LGBTQIA+ artists from all over the UK, focusing on objects whose symbolic and energetic force infuse a sense of safety and protection, but also of resistance in queer lives.

Most of the artworks in the exhibition are for sale, and provide funds for AKT, the UK’s only charity dedicated to supporting LGBTQ+ young people facing homelessness ([e-mail]).

Key Themes Explored in This Episode: The importance of inclusivity. Trans rights. Trans guidance. LGBTQIA+ art and artists. Queering the museum. Curating as an LBBTQIA+ person. Recentering female queer and trans narratives.Major Themes: Curating, Queer art, Museum Communication Strategies and Failures, Queer narratives, LGBTQIA+ art visibility, Lesbian histories, Trans histories, Audience Engagement, How to Engage with inclusivity. Art and activist. Non profit art organisations. Curating. Museums and heritage. New forms of curating. Exhibitions as safe spaces explores the importance of contemporary art spaces, museums and galeries for the LGBTQIA+ community.

⁠⁠For behind the scenes clips, links to the artists and guests we cover, and visuals of the exhibitions we discuss follow us on Instagram: @exhibitionistas_podcastBluesky: @[e-mail]

About us: Exhibitionistas is an independent podcast created and hosted by contemporary art curator and writer Joana P. R. Neves. www.exhibitionistaspodcast.com

#contemporaryart #lgbtqia #exhibitionistas #exhibitionistaspodcast #joanaprneves #gemmarollsbentley #ejscott #museumoftransology #cardionarts #talisman

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
I love these episodes where I don't do much.
My guests today are so incredibly professional and
articulate, poetic and determined that I just had to
ask a simple question. And a string of insightful
stories ensued, along with illuminating trans, lesbian,

(00:25):
queer, and feminist curating framings.
Stick around to the end because I assure you, you will come out
of this episode more affirmed ormore informed at the very least.
So welcome to the very first special summer episode of
Exhibitionist. There will be lots of endearing,

(00:45):
hilarious and courageous storiesfor you, unveiling queer lives
in detail and with a tenderness often missing when talking about
homosexuality and particularly currently trans people.
Interviewing EJ Scott about his exhibitions through the lens of

(01:05):
his trans life and values withinthe heritage and museum
institution was powerful. On the other hand, the
incredible work ethic of Gemma Roles Bentley will give you a
real insight into curating from a lesbian queer perspective.
We're all enriched by these stories, and thus she have

(01:28):
incredible anecdotes about queerlives from the past and also
from today. Learning about the exhibition
that brought us here will perfectly illustrate such
framings and how they can be useful and exciting and
empowering. The exhibition is called

(01:50):
Talisman and is centered around the notion of safety and
resistance through magical powerful objects that keep us
safe, strong and resilient. There are lots of references in
this episode which I will include in the newsletter.
So sign up, follow us on Instagram and don't forget to
leave us a rating to donate or to become a member through Sub

(02:13):
Stack or our website exhibitionistpodcast.com.
And now on with the episode. Enjoy.
I am Joanna PR Nevesh, Contemporary art curator and
writer, and this is exhibition Esters, the podcast where we
explore art from all angles, stubbornly embracing creativity

(02:34):
in its iridescent complexity. This is an Art Insider episode
where I interview fascinating figures of the field, and today
is no exception. I have the honor of having here
with me two guests, Gemma Ross Bentley and EJ Scott.
They Co curated the exhibition Talisman, assisted by assistant

(02:55):
curator Katie Dellavali and which was extended until the
10th of August. So you have time to go plenty of
time. It's in London on Park Street,
right next to the Blavatnik Building entrance of Tate
Modern. You'll find all the information
in the shows notes. So please go there and you can
also, while you're there, sign up for the newsletter.

(03:18):
So Gemma and EJ, thank you so much for being here.
Welcome to exhibition Esters. Thanks for having us.
It's a pleasure, so I'll brieflyintroduce you very quickly.
The embarrassing moment and thenwe'll move on to accounts, which
is the pleasure of listening to your answers.
So Gemma Roles Bentley is a curator, writer and creative
consultant with a career spanning 2 decades.

(03:41):
She has a multifaceted approach to the field and she champions
and supports diversity, particularly female and queer
artists. With a mission to create more
space for L GB, TIQ, A+ Voices and creative endeavours.
She is the author of the magnificent book that You Must
Purchase If You Don't Have QueerArt, From Canvas to Club and The

(04:05):
Spaces Between, whose title reflects the width of her
perspectives on art practices and their spaces.
She is in the Leslie Lohman Museum Acquisitions Board and
she sits on the Koto AssociationCommittee.
She's curated too many exhibitions and done too many
projects to list here, but I would highlight the Brighton

(04:25):
Beacon Collection, which is the largest permanent display of
queer art in the UK. And it includes artists such as
David Hockney, Isaac Julian, whowrote the forewords for her book
By the Way, Catherine OP, Elm Green and Draxett, Prem Sahib,
Sunil Gupta Sinwakin and Maggie Hambling, who's recently

(04:48):
unveiled a new blue plaque whichI discovered in Gemma's
Instagram accounts for Gemma. Do you want to tell us what
happened? What was that blue plaque?
Sure, it was a yeah. It was a really iconic moment.
I felt very lucky to be there. Maggie was invited to unveil a
blue plaque for the Gateways Club, which was the first

(05:10):
lesbian club in the UK. It essentially was a space for
lesbians from around 1945 to 1985, and there are many, many,
many wild stories from that place.
It's a basement bar in Chelsea, just a very unassuming door on
the street. I've heard many stories,
especially since I posted that reel involving Maggie herself,

(05:34):
which she was horrified to hear when I saw her on Wednesday and
told her that. And yes, they invited English
Heritage, who are responsible for putting the blue plaques up.
Have a really brilliant working group led by Amy Lemay, and
they're committed to marking more LGBTQIA plus sites around
the UK and the Gateways Club gota blue plaque above the door

(06:00):
finally. And apparently it's the first
blue plaque that says lesbians plural on it.
Yeah. I mean, it started.
It actually started the guy who took over the lease for the bar
according to the stories which Ibelieve are true, his grandson,
I think it was his grandson or his great nephew was presenting
on the day too. Apparently he he won the deeds

(06:23):
for this bar in a boxing bet that he did very well out of.
And I think so that he actually took over in like the 30s, late
30s. And then his wife, who Maggie
calls Queen Gina, ran the bar with her friend Smithy, who was

(06:44):
a lesbian from the American Air Force.
There's a really great documentary that's a it's free
on iPlayer at the moment called Gateways Grind about the club.
It's like an hour long and it's really good.
And Maggie's in that too. But yeah, the these two women
ran the bar, a Butch and a femme, well, lesbian presenting

(07:04):
women. According to this documentary,
everybody assumed they were a couple.
But that Gina's daughter says that she asked her mum on her
deathbed were you and Smithy ever, you know, and she said no,
no, we weren't. But it wasn't because of me, it
was because of Smithy. So I presume it's because there
was a husband and Smithy wanted to be honourable.
But they ran this bar for decades.
I mean the stories. It's a great story.

(07:26):
It's a really good job someone made a made a film.
Oh my God. Gateways grind.
Gateways grind on. I OK a must watch.
OK amazing. Just need to highlight another
project of yours. Gemma.
By the way who which is open nowand will be open until December
at Walterton. It's a two person exhibition

(07:48):
with Maggie, Maggie Hambling andRoy Robertson.
So EJ Scott is a curator, cultural producer and academic
senior lecturer in culture criticism and curation at
Central St. Martin's.
EJ's curating and projects recenter histories of alienated

(08:09):
others and marginalized communities.
I would highlight the West Yorkshire Queer Stories
projects, which was organized inpartnership with MESMAC, Leeds
City Museum and West Yorkshire Archives National Science and
Media Museum. But more importantly, EJ is the
founder of an absolutely incredible and innovative

(08:33):
project called the Museum of Transology, which is the UK's
most significant collection of objects representing trans, non
binary and intersex people's lives.
And this year the Museum of Transology celebrates its 10th
anniversary. And we'll, we'll talk about all
this in a bit. Just to finish EJ's very short

(08:56):
biography and again, really, really succinct as much.
There would be much more to say.EJ was awarded the UK's Activist
Museum Award of 20/20/21 by the Research Center for Museums and
Galleries. And he co-authored the Trans
inclusive culture guidance for museums, galleries, archives and

(09:16):
heritage organizations with and that includes 11 museums across
the UK, namely the national trusts, which is incredible
amazing. So do you want to tell us a
little bit about that project because it seems that it is in
very fresh in in the works? The the thanks for having me.

(09:37):
The Trans Inclusive Culture guidance really responded to a
very specific point in time. It was produced by the Research
Center for Museums and Galleriesout of the University of
Leicester. And increasingly the research
centre was, you know, RCMG was getting enquiries from, from
people they'd worked with beforeand members working actively

(10:01):
within the sector about how to navigate their institutional
values surrounding trans inclusion.
At a time that was becoming increasingly fraught in the UK
with the government and the and National Health Service, our
university sector, the Office for Students, the EHRC pushing

(10:26):
for trans exclusion, if you like, the museum and heritage
sector in the UK plays a very, very important role in
disseminating our social values.You know, it's very much where
you find out where, where you belong in society and who you
are and how you got here and why.
So we've got a really strong sector when it comes to

(10:46):
inclusivity. And so out of those inquiries
and, and in combination with thedifficulties I was facing
working on a project, I was of curated queer and now at TAT for
a number of iterations. And up to 10,000 people come on
one day and there's 100 others and speakers, etcetera.

(11:07):
Well, just a couple of weeks before it, we sort of went into
full production. There was a protest against Drag
Story time, people saying that it wasn't suitable for the
children and queer families to have access to storytelling
within the gallery. And there was a protest outside
Take Britain. You know, it's got the
neoclassical stairs, it's reallyiconic sort of looking building

(11:30):
in our cultural sector. And right up the middle of the
stairs where the police and on one side where the left in
support of of of the activities and on on the other side with
the far right. What we were seeing right in
front of our eyes in this physical manifestation was also
what we were seeing in the cultural sector.
So and. This was in 2023.

(11:50):
Yes. So our, our first iteration of
the, we worked at a rate of not a project like this would
normally take us a couple of years to turn around.
We turned around the guidance within six months, we surveyed
members in the sector. We got thousands of, of people
writing back about what they needed to know, how can we be
trans inclusive? What does the law do?
Can we be protected, etcetera. And we navigated building a

(12:13):
document that was both ethics and, and values as well as legal
advice. And we ended up having a huge
amount of support from the sector.
The International Council of Museums backed it.
There's just been an iteration of it released just a couple of
weeks ago in in Venice of the Italian version.

(12:34):
And we're moving into the next stage with 11 partners right
here across the UK about how to implement the guidance with case
studies. And all of the museums that have
signed up in this iteration willbe producing exhibitions,
displays, staff training and so forth.
That makes them confident in maintaining their already

(12:54):
pre-existing institutional values about L GB TIQ A+
inclusivity in these spaces and the important role they play in
maintaining those values being visible within the art and
heritage sector. So it's a really a really
important piece of work that we're really proud of, but
moreover proud that the sector has really stood up and stood

(13:15):
behind planted as well. Especially I don't know if you
want to talk about this, but maybe briefly mention the the
Supreme Court ruling this year, because for our listeners, we
have listeners across 67 countries and they may not be
aware of what happened this year.
So over these two last years, there's been a movement that is

(13:37):
quite the contrary of what's of that inclusivity in in museums
and galleries. That's right.
So, so in the broader sector we've had EHRC ruling.
So so that's you know, our Supreme Court saying that ruling
against trans people's existencebasically and their right to
exist, so accessing public services, health services,

(14:00):
toilets, etcetera. It's a, a really, really
significant set back in trans rights and protection in the UK.
It's also completely unpoliceable.
So it's our sectors, our, our, our, our arts and culture sector
particularly has fought back against it in just, even in
practical terms, how on earth can we stop people using the

(14:23):
toilets in our venues? What do you want us to do,
police their bodies, etcetera, etcetera.
But then we, we also have the office for students ruling
against trans inclusive curriculum.
Again, this for example, within,within my university, which is
an arts university. What, what, how many students do
we have who aren't queer on campus?

(14:45):
You know, so they are the futureof the arts sector.
Taking away trans inclusive, trans positive, queer positive
curriculum is a really significant step as well.
So we're waiting for that to be enacted.
So to have the museum and heritage and gallery and archive
sector stand up and go, we will not stand behind this.
We will push back against it andwe don't think it's workable

(15:08):
even if you tried to make us do it.
I think really shows that the creative sector has always been
a leading sector for who we are as UK society on the ground, who
we are as people and communities.
That hopefully will ultimately speak louder than the medium
misrepresentation of division that is overemphasised and

(15:33):
inaccurate. Certainly the response Gemma and
I see to our work and our communities need, the way they
thrive within creative and cultural spaces as well as
produce within these spaces, speaks to exactly, exactly the
opposite end of this victim. Well, we're, we're going to talk

(15:54):
about your other projects Museumof Transology because this
exhibition Talisman is joint forces between to entities, to
organizations. So Cardian Arts Gemma, you
founded it a year ago, wasn't it?
More or less. And there's a charity associated

(16:16):
with it. So explain your project a little
bit and then we'll move on to the Museum of Transology.
Cardian Arts it's a non a new nonprofit and a group of us
found founded it together. I'm just one of many people
behind it and we came together last year to work on an
exhibition called Ultraviolet that was on in Soho in London

(16:40):
for just one week. And it was another fantastic
group exhibition of queer and trans artists that was looking
at queer visual coding in contemporary art practice.
The exhibition it was on for one, I think it was like 9 days
and we had thousands of people through the door.
We did 2 events, both of them. It was like the, the street in

(17:03):
Soho had to shut down because itwas just full of people.
The the turn out was really mindblowing.
And so those of us who did the show said there's obviously a
demand for this kind of programming in London still and
people had travelled from all around the UK actually to come
to the exhibition, which we've also seen for Talisman the same.

(17:25):
And so, yeah, we decided to cometogether and formalize an
organization which and we calledCardian, it's the name of the
organization comes from 2 Gaelicwords, one meaning family and
one meaning protection. And we put them together.
I joke that I also just really like the sound of the name

(17:47):
because it makes me think of Céline Dion, which the gays
appreciate. But yeah, we have this.
We have a big ambitious mission,I would say as an organization,
the there's three parts to our mission.
The first one is that we champion the work of queer and

(18:07):
trans artists. Number 2 is we program events
that foster a sense of belongingfor our community.
And then the third one is that we fundraise for our charity
partner and our charity partner is a KTAKT are the only charity
in the UK who are working with queer and trans young people

(18:27):
currently facing homelessness. And so the kind of programming
that we've been doing as an organization is 1 big annual
exhibition every year. We did a performance night event
at the ICA in March. Well, yeah, and.
That was and that was again, brilliantly attended.
And you know, we we made sure that half of the tickets were

(18:47):
available for free and then there were options to pay and
then pay plus donation and the people also could donate on the
night. And we had amazing, amazing
talent performing it that night.We had artist Evan Schadpo, we
had a brilliant singer called Dilemma.
We had the duo Eve Stanton and Florence Peak.

(19:11):
And then Tom Rasmussen closed out the night with a very sexy
musical performance. And then we also do other
smaller, more intimate programming where we host
dinners for artists, where we work really closely with artists
to think about what they need a key moment in their career,

(19:33):
perhaps their early career or their a pivotal moment in their
career. We had one of those dinners last
night, which is why I look so tired because as you heard, I
was doing camera. Look amazing. 2:00 this morning.
Was it 9 Dion doing that? It was Céline Dion.
I do, I do a very good. My heart will go on.

(19:56):
If that's true, I'm very impressed.
Now, and I'm sober and I still do it.
Well, I think, yeah. There's an opportunity here now,
Gemma. To do it right now, I'm also now
I've had two. There's a limit and how much you
can do it in 24 hours. You have to catch me on a you
have to catch me on a different day.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

(20:18):
And then we're also about to launch a residency program with
Cardian. We do, yeah.
So that's, we have a brilliant Scottish artist coming down to
London for the month of August. He's going to be resident in a
really fabulous property in Hammersmith that has a very long
queer history. BBC Three made a radio
documentary about the property. It's called A Most Queer House.

(20:40):
And so, yeah, we're bringing an artist there.
And I mean, there's lots and lots of projects that we're
doing and a lot of it involves partnering with other
organizations. And so for this exhibition, you
know, I was thinking about who would be a good person for us to
partner with on the exhibition. And because of everything that's
been going on in the UK, in North America and in the wider

(21:04):
world around trans rights, it, it just felt like a really good
opportunity to work with the EJ in the Museum of Transology.
I often say that the Museum of Transology exhibition that I saw
back then really gave me insightinto trans experience that I
wouldn't otherwise have had. And I have a huge number of

(21:25):
trans people in my life, in my chosen family, and I feel that
I'm able to show up for them better because, you know, being
able to engage with the Museum of Transology.
And then obviously, EJ's continued doing fantastic work
over the last decade. The show CSM Transcestry that
just closed was just incredible.And to see the community turn

(21:47):
out was brilliant. So, yeah, I was really, really
delighted that EJ agreed to workwith us on this exhibition.
And what has kind of come out ofit is just really brilliant.
It's a group show called Talisman, and we called it that
because we were having conversations with artists and
these themes kept coming up around symbols, objects or

(22:11):
people that we're turning to to keep us safe in these
increasingly challenging times. So just to kind of close the
chapter of this Co curation, maybe it would be a great
opportunity, EJ, for you to talka little bit about the Museum of
Transology that Gemma has described brilliantly, because
it really is the fine detail, detail of that humanizes rather

(22:36):
than vilifies or or pathologizesthis particular project that
you've organized. So can you tell us a little bit
about how you've come to define this project and then what it is
and, and how it exists out there?
Because it's not a brick and stone museum, right?

(22:57):
Yeah, that's right. First of all, just want to
emphasize how grateful we were to have this invitation by
Kadian Arts and, and, and from Gemma to, to work on this
project. It's been an absolute delight
because at the end of the day, what felt really right about it
is that we're both not-for-profit.
We both care about fostering belonging for our community

(23:18):
through the arts and you know, the the intention of trying to
provide a space for our community to be visible, but
also to be with each other. All of these, these, these
values aligned for me the work at the Museum of Transology.
The Museum of Transology is now the world's largest collection

(23:39):
of objects and stories relating to trans lives.
We've been collecting for 10 years and it's a material
culture collection. So people donate an object, but
they write their story in handwriting on a little brown
tag that's attached to it. And, and so we archive the tags
as well, which means we turn thestory into a piece of material

(24:00):
culture as well. By archiving this, we we enter
into a realm where you can't de accession the stories and remove
them. So those stories are protected
in time as well. And so we've got very clear
ambitions when we've been going.When I set it up, it was that we
would provide a space for trans people to talk about their

(24:20):
experiences rather than being talked about.
You know, it started in 2014, and this was the year that
Laverne Cox appeared on the front cover of Time magazine
with the heading Trans tipping Point.
And really it was the year that the whole world all of a sudden
went trans tastic quite in. You know, there were a couple of
social forces that at play, but essentially this was like, Oh my

(24:43):
God, they used the toilet. You know, like the whole world
just kind of woke up in in this ballistic plans awakening.
And so it felt like we were being spoken about, that we were
being, you know, I have really clear ambitions that by bringing
people's voices into this heritage and arts space, that we
can fight the legal systems thatcriminalize us, the medical

(25:08):
systems that pathologize us, themedia that spectacularizes our
lives and bodies, and the politicians who debate and
demonize us. We would put the humanity back
into the trans experience by talking through our own lens and
our own lives. And so we say that the
collections by us, about us and for us, and we've now got over

(25:29):
1000 objects in the collection and 2000 protest placards and
they all went on show for the exhibition, The 10 year
anniversary exhibition at Central St.
Martin's at the Leatherby Gallery and only closed a couple
of a month or so ago. But the most important thing as
well is that we use curation andan exploration of it as a

(25:50):
practice of care to engage the community.
So there I always say there's 1000 curators of the Museum of
Transology, every single thing that we do down to the
collecting, the donation, the object entry forms, the
cataloguing, the mounting, the exhibition, but everything is
done by trans people, all members of the community.

(26:13):
So we had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people work on
the show over three years. But we've, we, we meet weekly
and we archive every single weekand, and groups of us turn up
and it's intergenerational and it's free.
And it's about really sharing the skills, but also presenting
people with an opportunity to feel like they have a place in

(26:34):
history. If if you don't see yourself on
a wall of a museum, you're made historically homeless.
You're taught that your people have never contributed to
society, that that you're not worth, you're destined to not be
remembered. So actually fighting back
against that and going come and write your story and protect
other people's stories enables us as a community to be

(26:56):
empowered to understand that we are actively contributing to the
world around us. And I think really that that
engagement with arts and cultureand archiving and curating an
exhibition display as a collaborative community process
is, is a really it holds a very specific magic power.

(27:18):
And in a way that brings us backfull circle to talking about
this exhibition. You know, what is that
talismanic power? What really is it about how we
can use our art and our queerness and our talents and
our transness to find each other, but to find our way in
the world when the world sometimes feels overwhelmingly

(27:38):
challenging? This is a way of a pathway out
of that where we don't just compromise and settle for being
accepted. Where we go, we are fabulous.
And you need us as much as we need you, right?
I mean, you just have to go to Pride the other weekend.
There's many more straight people there than there were

(27:59):
queer people. They weren't a part of our
culture, man. So I think, I think there is a
magic there that deserves to be celebrated.
And we're, we're touching on that with this idea of, of the
Talisman in this show. It's so beautiful to listen to
you because both of you are realcurators.
You cannot wait to talk about the exhibition.

(28:21):
And I'm trying to contain you because I still, I have another
question because this is exhibition esters.
And I started the podcast by inviting people who weren't
professionals in the arts field to discuss specific exhibitions
together and turn them into episodes.
And so I'm always curious about exhibitions.
And I'm also curious about whereit clicked for each one of us.

(28:44):
So Gemma, I read somewhere that your grandmother introduced you
to art, which was kind of a double edged sword because you
were interested in art, but at the same time not a lot of
representativity in the art thatyou were seeing and you weren't
seeing people that interested you and that you felt connected
to. So was it there and then that it

(29:06):
clicked for you, the art thing and that you felt that that was
your thing? Or was it much later?
Because I know you didn't study art right away.
You studied what was it, politics.
I forget I. Did maths and artificial
intelligence. What?
That's why I'm good with the budget, EJ.
I mean, game on, baby. Wait, wait, wait.

(29:29):
Artificial intelligence. Yeah, before it was really a
thing, I had seen that film withJude Law in it.
I thought it looked like it was going to be cool.
I I did not do well in my AI studies at all.
So we're moving on from there. That would be a whole episode.

(29:49):
Thank you for that very thoughtful question.
Yeah, it's something I've thought about a lot recently
because my, my my oldest, who is6, has started talking about my
grandmother a lot. She died before he was
conceived. I was, we were trying to get
pregnant with him when she was dying and we talked about it a

(30:14):
lot and she left some things forhim and for the kids.
You know, she'd really hoped that we were going to have a
family. She knew that we were trying.
But this funny thing and she wasa huge influence in my life.
My grandmother, she went to an art school when she was a
teenager in Sheffield in the 50s.
So she knew all about the gays because that's her friends were

(30:39):
and actually I have a very elderly friend who's 92 that my
wife and I help care for and he was her best friend.
His brother went who's was also a fabulous gay, went to the art
school with my granny. So yeah, there were gay men in
her life a lot. She was a big old hag and like
me and loved it. But she she was very, very, she

(31:03):
was, I mean, she was a really talented artist.
She was really passionate about art.
She actually had a scholarship to come to London and go to the
Slade. But she got married to my
granddad, got married to my granddad instead and ran her
parents. She worked in her parents shoe
shop and didn't didn't ever go and do her studies.
But so I think when I came alongand expressed an interest in

(31:24):
art, she was really happy to have someone that was into it
with her. And we visited a lot of
galleries together. And I really, you know, there's
some really kind of vivid memories I have.
I, there's a, there's this self-portrait of Rembrandt, age
51, that hangs in the National Gallery of Scotland.
And I, and it, the way you used to walk into the main gallery
space, you'd walk in and it was kind of hung behind you where

(31:46):
you'd just come from. And I can remember walking
through into that room. And then she turned around and
saw it and she went and it was like a real kind of gasp.
She was like, I could see how moved she was by this painting
and you know, I remember things like that.
I think she kind of passed that on, like how to feel about art.

(32:07):
But the reason I mention my 6 year old and her is because she,
my grandmother lived with my parents in their house in
Sheffield and she passed away and they've just recently sold
their house, moved to a smaller house.
And so there used to be a bedroom, Granny Anne's room at
my parents house and that that bedroom doesn't exist anymore.

(32:30):
And we have a very, very small box room in our house which is
really empty actually. We've usually got some lovely
young friends staying in the room, but my son Blaze has
recently started calling that bedroom Granny Annes room.
And I don't know why, I don't know what, but I feel like maybe

(32:52):
he's they're talking to each other or something.
There's some lovely connection. It's very sweet.
And he's very like her. And yeah, it's kind of a funny
thing. And he's he's really like,
that's it. It just one day he was like, Oh
yeah, Granny Ann's room. And he only calls that bedroom
Granny Ann's room. It's really bizarre.
Even if like our friend, even when our friend is living in
that room and it's their bedroom, he's like, no, no,

(33:12):
Granny Ann's room. So, so yeah, she's the one that
taught me to love art. But the point you said about
like it not necessarily being representational for me and
myself and I, you know, it's true.
I didn't see myself reflected inart.
So I loved it. I loved the technique of art.
I loved, you know, seeing art and the craft of it.
But in terms of the content, youknow, I, I, yeah, I think I

(33:37):
probably struggled to connect and, but actually a big turning
point for me was when I was at university doing maths and AI.
I was able to pick sorry, I everyone laughs at this, I'm
sorry. Listen, I can do a really good
spreadsheet. My finances are in order.

(33:57):
But you know what? While I was listening to you, I
was thinking, these people work so hard, you work so much, and
now I know why, at least for you, Gemma.
I don't know what EJ, I don't know what EJ's secret is.
But yeah, sorry. I do, I do work hard, but I'm
also, I don't know, I'm a classic, the addict.
My relationship with my work is not necessarily healthy.

(34:20):
But yeah, I, when I was studying, I was able to pick up
secondary subjects and art history was one of the subjects
I picked up and I just absolutely loved it.
But the key was at Edinburgh University, where I was
studying, there was also a jointhonors degree, art history and

(34:40):
fine art. And many of the students on my
art history course were also practicing artists and had art
studios in the art school. And so I used to go and hang out
with them in their studios. And that was the moment that I
was like, this is the world I want to be in this I could see a
role for myself. I knew I wanted to work with
artists. I wanted to build platforms to

(35:02):
present their work. I wanted to find ways to connect
with different audiences. I wanted to help artists tell
stories about their work. That was it was getting to know
artists that really changed it for me.
How fantastic and incredible because the first thing you

(35:23):
described was someone else reacting, someone you loved
reacting to network. And now you're talking about the
artists and how they worked and how you connected with them.
So it's such a communitarian sort of foundational relation to
art. It's really incredible.
EJ Same question for you. Were you connected to art in

(35:46):
your childhood, teens? Was it a later click?
How? How did it happen for you?
Certainly for the Museum of Transology, there's a very
specific moment and it was, I'vementioned that I started it in
2014. The collection was sort of this,
we refer to it as the trans tipping point.

(36:07):
I'm actually a social historian,so the kind of curation that I
do really relies on on finding stories and showing stories and,
and unpacking the, the context within which they exist.
And so it's just been a real joyworking with artists directly to
hear about the work that they'reproducing.
You know, that's, that's kind ofwhere I jump in and I at the
same time as as doing that that,that that was happening in 2014,

(36:32):
I was working for the National Trust curating a very large
collection of fashion and textiles.
There were 14,000 pieces in the collection and dating back
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.
And I became a little bit obsessed with this idea of
freezing rooms in time. This is what we do classically

(36:54):
with the National Trust and, and, and large sort of stately
homes and heritage houses is we set up the dining room and they
might have lived here like this.And you walk through and you
step back in time and you think that you know, the tables and
the tablecloths and the, these belong to the family and they
might have actually touched thatclub.
And Charles Baudelaire famously says that the, the, the, the

(37:17):
beauty of collecting, the magic of collecting, the miracle of
collecting is that we collect ourselves.
I, I was also going through somegender affirming surgery and I
was lying in my hospital room and I was looking around at all
the things in the hospital room going, where's my frozen room in
time? This is, this is such a, a, a

(37:40):
widely shared trans experience that people could step in and by
stepping in could potentially understand how important and
intimate and, and, and in so many ways relatable the
experience is if we just had a space for these artifacts and to
set up these kind of kind of trans understandings.

(38:03):
And as I was sort of thinking about this, my best friends came
up to visit me in the hospital room and one of them stuck their
hand through the door and it washolding a balloon from the gift
shop downstairs. It's a boy.
So I speak to the nurse and she let me take the streets and the

(38:23):
pillowcases and the little papercups that I had my medicine in
and they literally everything. She just take the whole room.
And I had my It's a boy collection.
And that was the first display that I did of the Museum of
Transology was to recreate this frozen room in time in using

(38:44):
the, the curatorial methodologies that actually had
got from the most sort of traditional heritage
organization in the UK. And re appropriated it to make
it incredibly timely and incredibly queer.
And to respond exactly to what was going on today so that we
didn't forget it tomorrow. Because otherwise we were just

(39:04):
going to fall through the cracksand into the historical abyss
once again. You know, the, the idea with
the, you know, we learned a lot in 2017 when it was the partial
decriminalization of homosexuality in England and
Wales. Here in, in the UK it takes, you
know, it could take a couple of years to get particularly a

(39:25):
social history exhibition or a mixed media exhibition together
in museums across the UK. So around 2014 all the museums
were going, we're really rubbishat LGBT representation.
What are we going to do? How are we going to get
something together for 2017 in time when we don't know what's
in our collections? And so that couple of years lead

(39:46):
time to think about what was in the collections.
We also realized that a lot of the social history in the
collections as opposed to creative output by queer artists
were the medical records, were the criminal records were, you
know, all the same things we were potentially going to have

(40:06):
to rely upon. If we didn't start building a
trans collection, we wouldn't belearning from the queer past.
And what's the point of doing all this queer history for the
wider world if we're not learning from it ourselves
within the community, right. So that's when I was like, we
are just going to end up with criminal records about the trans
community in 100 years time. We're just going to have these
newspaper reports again in 100 years time we have.

(40:28):
To do something about this. So it was all those sort of cogs
colliding. I don't know if cogs collide.
Maybe you could give me an update on that with your AI
skills, Gemma. But but, but it certainly was
all the pieces falling into place that was born of a very
personal experience sort of segueing into how can I curate

(40:50):
for social change? How can we use curation as a
force that actually is more thanmore, more than a spectacular,
more than a show? It has intentionality and, and,
and power. Yeah, yeah.
That's leading to my, to my nextquestion, which is the the

(41:11):
reframing of exhibition making because you're both curators and
obviously there's always these kind of identity politics thrown
at us, you know, saying, oh, is there a, you know, female way of
making art? What does that even mean?
But you're reframing things. So how how do you think that

(41:31):
your missions reframe curating in particular and maybe that
could lead us to the exhibition Talisman that we're talking
about and. This is something that I thought
about an awful lot when I was writing my book because, you
know, I needed to, if I was going to write a book called
Queer Art, I needed to understand firstly, what I meant
by queer art and secondly, why, why it was even relevant to have

(41:54):
a book about queer art. And so for the purposes of that
book, I took Queer art to mean anything that refers to the
queer experience, implicitly or explicitly.
And the reason it felt very relevant to put all of that work

(42:17):
together in a book was because applying A queer lens to art can
provide new ways to connect withthe art.
You know, I often use David Hockney as an example.
I knew all about David Hockney because I'm from Yorkshire and
because he's one of the most famous artists in the world and

(42:38):
certainly one of the most famousliving artists.
And I had seen loads of his work.
But I and I had studied 2 art history degrees, I think, before
I really thought about the queerness in his work.
And the queerness in David Hockley's work is extremely
explicit. You know, he was making etchings

(42:59):
in the 1960s of two boys in bed together and talking very openly
about defending his way of life.But art history has not framed
the work as queer. It's not celebrated the
queerness in his work at all. I mean, at all is wrong.
There are people that have been doing that work.

(43:20):
Absolutely. You know, I think a real turning
point for me was the Queer British art exhibition at Tape
Britain that Claire Barlow curated that made me think about
the the relevance of applying A queer lens to art history and to
art. And so, you know, that I guess
that's kind of where I come fromin terms of like my art

(43:43):
historical training and my background, my art historical
background. But when it comes to
contemporary art, it feels really, really important that
people who wouldn't necessarily ordinarily engage with art and
culture, I think that art and culture is that relevant to them
in their lives. It's I think it's very important

(44:06):
that people find ways to connectwith the work that reflects them
and their community. You know, art can be a very
powerful way of making sense of your own identity by looking at
other people's perspectives and experiences articulated through
their art. Something that we've talked

(44:26):
about a lot in this show is thatthere there are lots of examples
where something made by an artist through their art
practice. It can can maybe be the only
way, the best way, or the only way of articulating something
that is otherwise quite challenging to articulate can't
just be said through words, for example.

(44:47):
You know, with art, you can really express a feeling, you
know, So with my curatorial work, I feel like it's, it is
relevant to apply a queer lens, but I think that can be done in
different ways. And it's important that it's
always done in thoughtful ways. So for example, I would never
curate an exhibition that was called queer art.

(45:10):
That was just a group of artistsbrought together because they
are queer. That feels really reductive.
That doesn't feel like we're really understanding and
appreciating that art. It doesn't feel like we're
having a progressive, sensitive conversation about the topics
that they're handling in their work.
Making a book about that topic is different because that book

(45:32):
didn't exist. You know, we should have had
that that book decades ago and that book didn't exist and you
know, there wasn't anything out there that was super accessible
and that anybody could pick up. But when it comes to exhibition
making, you know, I, I think that queerness can be part of
the conversation. So, you know, for us, we're
talking about Talisman. We're talking about these things

(45:54):
that people turn to the magic, the power and the resilience
that comes from our community and the tools that we use to
help us find that power. You know, and I, I did an
exhibition a couple of years agoat the Leslie Lohmann Museum in
New York called Dreaming of Homethat was all about home and what
that might mean to queer and trans folk.

(46:17):
You know, whether that's about domesticity, whether it's about
family, whether it's about a house or if it's about moving,
migration, chosen family, feeling at home in your own
body. You know, these topics can mean
so much to to people, to audiences, but a queer
perspective on those topics is something different and unique

(46:39):
and it should be given space. You know, the exhibition I've
just done just opened in Norfolkat Walterton that you mentioned
the two person show with Maggie Hambling and Roy Robertson.
That exhibition is called Sea State.
It was conceived in response to the Sainsbury's Center local,
the local institutions program all about the the the question

(47:02):
they were asking. The opposing was Will the Sea
Survivors, and so they I was invited to do an exhibition in
collaboration with Simon Oldfield, the artistic director
at Walterton, responding to thattheme.
And the two artists I thought offirst of all, that I know work
very closely with the sea are Maggie Hambling and Roy
Robertson. They're also both queer artists,

(47:24):
and they are thinking about the sea as, you know, a kind of very
powerful metaphor for many life experiences.
The sea is something that reallyresonates with a lot of queer
people. You know, there's the themes
around mermaids, about unconditional acceptance of the
sea and the water. Somebody, an artist I'm working

(47:47):
with on a new show said to me the other day, maybe it's about
the sea. When you look out to sea, you
can just keep going. You know, I think there's
something kind of like this hopeful potential there.
So, you know, that's an, that exhibition in Norfolk is about
the sea. But the queerness that those two
artists bring to that topic is relevant.
And it's worth having, you know,worth discussing.

(48:10):
Yeah, it's funny because I was at the quarto the other day.
There was this exhibition of theGerman collection that is very
close to the Quarto collection. And there was a painting by
Toulouse Lautrec called Shokau depicting a woman facing the
spectator. And I was so struck by that

(48:31):
painting. And I thought you could see that
woman in the street today. The, the, the stance, the
masculinity, you know, there wassomething so special about it.
And I was with a friend who toldme the story about Shoko, who I
didn't know. And this was a clown, so a

(48:52):
female artist who performed as aclown, which at the time was
quite revolutionary and openly lesbian.
And then I went to the Musee d'orsay website to learn more
about this story. The there's a description of the
room. It's another painting, the room

(49:12):
that she's in and someone is in the back and there's a mention
of that person potentially beinga client.
There's no explanation of the relationship of Toulouse Lautrec
with her, particularly of including her in Elle, the whole
catalog of prostitutes that he. So all of that history is

(49:34):
lacking. So you don't understand that
character and you don't understand that physicality and
that pride and that stance. So the history is truncated.
But of course you can talk aboutprostitution because of course,
you know, that's something that is relevant always, you know,
for the place of. Women.
Yeah, if it's the, if it's the, the.

(49:54):
Idea but being discussed, being discussed through a misogynistic
framework. I'm sure it's really it's I
mean, that happens all the time.Historically, that is, those
LGBTQIA plus stories have been omitted or actively erased.
And you know, there's a lot of work going into uncovering those

(50:17):
stories and a lot of the kind ofarchival work that EJ was
speaking about is just really key to that.
It's interesting that you kind of gave the example of Musee
Dorsey because they've had kind of, I say I would call it a
little bit of controversy aroundthis.
Recently they just had an exhibition by the painter Gustav

(50:38):
Kaiba, who painted lots of sexy men, some with their bums in the
air when they were scrubbing floors and stuff, getting out
baths. And in that exhibition, they did
in the exhibition text and the curation acknowledged the queer
possibility of the work. You know, it's, it's according

(51:03):
to the museum, impossible to know how the artist identified
what the intention was because there's no archival material to
back that up. Although I'm pretty sure if we
were to really dig, we'd find it.
But, you know, it queerness in the work it it, it's subjective.
And I think a lot of the time itcan be about the reading and how

(51:25):
we read the work. But there was, yeah, there was
uproar about that queer possibility being applied to
that artist. But then, you know, we see other
examples, like the painter lot of Laserstein who painted
herself and her female models. And again, it's like it's giving

(51:46):
lesbian, but no museum is ever acknowledging that.
And the lesbians are like, why aren't you acknowledging that
these people might be lesbians? You know?
So yeah, I think it it people find in terms of particularly
with art history and museum displays to, to have
acknowledgement of those lives can be very, very validating.

(52:07):
Even if it's a question, it's just a question to consider.
It can be really validating and it can be really important.
But there's a lot of fear aroundthat and around doing it.
I think one of the great things about the way EJ works is
thinking of, you know, like withthe trans inclusion guidance,
it's, it's thinking about, it's not just one project, it's

(52:28):
thinking about passing it on. And actually, a lot of the way
that we've collaborated around the exhibition Talisman is we've
been working with EJ's communitycurators that work with him at
Museum of Transology, most of whom are quite young or early
career or a pivotal moment in their life where their identity
and their career might be intersecting.

(52:49):
And we can work with those people and pass on our
experiences and know that these people are going to be going out
and making their own exhibitions.
Yeah. Speaking of which, EJ, this idea
that validation that Gemma was mentioning, you work really hard
towards not reducing the idea ofvalidation of just a sort of

(53:11):
empty idea of representation, but more an idea of learning
with the history and having a real embodied knowledge of
people's lives. And so my question to you as
well is this idea, is this question pertaining to curating.
So how do you reframe your curating precisely to open up

(53:32):
this idea of validation and and and and how do the projects then
take different shapes than maybea museum exhibition, let's say?
I, I think they do take the shape of museum exhibitions.
That can be the final outcome certainly in my work.

(53:53):
But I think that I think very well.
I do, I think very closely aboutwhat does it mean to be trancing
exhibition making? What does trans curatorial
practice well, what does transness control attribute to
curatorial practice at large? How can we impact upon the
sector with radical new forms and ways of thinking through

(54:14):
what we do and, and at the heartof it is embedding the values of
the community in the practice. So this can be really obvious,
but really important approaches in, in the trans community.
We've got a very strong commitment to anti racist
intersectional approaches. We've got very, very strong

(54:37):
accessibility politics, you know, the idea, all of these,
these commitments, you know, feminist values, etcetera.
All these these commitments cometogether at one to represent
what the trans community stands for, because trans liberation is
liberation for all. That's, that's, that's that's
the catch phrase that we use. The idea being that if we can be

(55:00):
freed from gender stereotypes, gender normativity, this this
will benefit everyone. It's really key to my practice
that we bring community into theprocess of the exhibition making
when they're trying to find themselves and tell their
stories rather than needing bed,not evidence of people having

(55:20):
had sex or non heteronormative lives.
You know, a lot of a lot of queer people in the past did
still have to get married did still have to lead to their
families, right, Etcetera. Right.
So just just finding the evidence is not the, the
pressure to find evidence of that is not the same as as any
heterosexual experiences in the curatorial world putting on an

(55:41):
exhibition going hang on, Are you sure that they really were
heterosexual? Because those pieces of evidence
apparently exist institutionally, You know, and
it's, it's not just I think thisapproach that we've built over
the last 10 years of upskilling the community, but always having
all these core values at play inthe work has fed out into wider

(56:02):
projects that don't necessarily need to be trans projects to see
these methodologies put to work.But they are born of the trans
experience of needing acknowledgement that we exist
and, and, and are owed an honourand a place in society.
So for example, an exhibition I did late 2324 in the at the

(56:25):
Ditching Museum of Arts and Crafts was called Double Weave
Born and Allen's Modernist textiles and Ditchling has an
incredible history of arts and crafts and particularly in
design. And the museum was turning 10 in
the new building basically. And they approached me to do an
exhibition because the founder of the of, of the museum, Hilary

(56:51):
Born her, had, had lived and made textiles, modernist
textiles with her partner for decades.
All their lives they'd lived together and they had studios
across Ditchling. They they had galleries in, in
London. They produced the all the

(57:12):
textiles that, for example, hangin the Royal Exhibition World
Festival Hall in London. They made the textiles that were
the first textiles in the first ever jet planes in the UK.
They did all the textiles that were in Ben Hur, the epic movie.

(57:32):
So these were in, yeah, incredible work.
When when they went away on holiday later in life, they were
staying in a bed and breakfast up North, the bed and breakfast
caught on fire. Hilary jumped out of the window

(57:54):
and her partner did not and perished in the fire.
And she went into deep, deep, deep mourning and moved back to
Ditchling and couldn't get out of her morning until her sister,
more than a decade later, said the school church, the school
school buildings up for sale. Why don't you build it and start
a why don't you buy them and start a museum and put all your

(58:15):
textiles with with with your partner in there.
And it was this, this, this foundation of this entire museum
and their relationship was neverspoken about.
So for the 10 year anniversary, I got 10 women from across
Sussex where Ditchling is. And they all contributed a
different story and a different reading of these women's lives
and relationship and work. Some of it was was modernist

(58:37):
history and the way that women are overlooked and women makers
are overlooked, particularly if they are in in a craft
modernism, you know, modernist practice like textiles.
We had art historians, textile historians, dress historians.
We had a dike from the local community.
But what we all came back to at the end of the project is that

(58:57):
the body of work that these women have produced throughout
their lifetime together was absolutely, absolutely founded
upon the strength of their intimacy and their relationship.
And that's what the queerness was.
That's what the lesbianism of this story is.
Their work stands on its own, but by understanding that their

(59:20):
relationship was part of their creativity and their really,
really, really cute business skills.
For example, by understanding that they ran the business, they
ran the weaving studios, they ran the dying, they swapped
vegetables to make dyes with other local lesbian lovers in
the area that also had little weaving houses.

(59:41):
You know, like this. This is about this history that
that brings Ditch link to life because it went across multiple
sites of making. It brings modernism to life at
the very highest cutting edge inLondon in the 1950s.
You know, it brings women's technology and business him into
life, but it's still all drawn out of their lesbianism and
their relationship, you know. So it was the process of trans

(01:00:05):
in the exhibition making by applying my community practice
and the values of letting us speak for ourselves and multiple
voices and working collectively to make the exhibition.
Those trans values in a lesbian exhibition were actually what
made it so beautiful and multi vocal.
You know, and I and I think it is this idea that we can.

(01:00:27):
Change this elite mode of highlyeducated, hierarchical, cyst
white male, upper middle class, if not more elite practitioners
that are the curators of the world and actually bring in
people with lived experience, but moreover passion for their
communities and their communities, cultural outputs

(01:00:48):
that that really can drive a shift in, in in in curatorial
practice at large, I think. In the exhibition Talisman,
there's also this effort, I believe to also decenter from
London, so that you have artistsfrom all across the UK, for
example Richard McGuire, who hasthese absolutely incredible tiny

(01:01:12):
drawings that are so complex andLED.
When we started putting Cardian Arts together as an
organization, one of the things that we really, really wanted to
make sure we did was that we presented work by artists from
right across the UK. You know, there is more stuff
happening in London often than there is across the rest of the

(01:01:33):
country. And so, yeah, that felt very
important. And yeah, I mean, we treat all
of the artists exactly the same,even though there is Labaina
Hamid in the show who's about torepresent Britain in the Venice
Biennale. And then we've got some very
early career artists in the exhibition or we've got artists
who've been making work in for along time, but haven't

(01:01:55):
necessarily had that many exhibition opportunities.
So yeah, I, I would say that it's very diverse in terms of
artist career, stage, as well asartist identity in the mediums
that they're working with and the way they approach their
work. I, I think both EJ and I feel
very passionately about providing opportunity for

(01:02:16):
intergenerational conversation. And so having artists who you
know, and I think this is something as well, is that to be
queer often involves queering time, particularly to be trans,
you know, when people are finding their authentic
identities later in life and kind of starting all over again

(01:02:40):
at certain points. And lots of people who identify
as LGBTQIA plus, you know, bigger things out at at
different points and depending on where you live and what
access you've had to different reference points and culture and
role models, you know, stuff canhappen later or younger, you

(01:03:02):
know, it just all really depends.
And so I was sat with a couple of friends the other day, 2
trans women, one who is several decades older than the other.
And the the younger 1 was reallykind of mentoring and supporting
the older one because the younger one had transitioned

(01:03:22):
much younger and had known she and probably partly because she
was growing up in a different era and you know that.
So I think the queers are very good at turning the world upside
down and using that to our strengths.
And so I would say that's kind of how we've approached this
exhibition actually in terms of highlights.

(01:03:42):
It's wonderful to work with Lebena, particularly in such an
exciting time for her. She's so busy and it means so
much that she contributed work to this show.
It means so much to the artist to be exhibiting alongside her.
Similarly with Jesse Darling, you know, these are artists who
the earlier career artists in the exhibition really look up

(01:04:03):
to, But then it's so exciting tobe presenting artists like Zach
you mentioned, who's a brilliant, brilliant painter
who's only really focused on painting in the last couple of
years and they're almost 40. But then we've got really young
artists as well, and artists like Emily Poe.
Beautiful light books in the show that she recently exhibited

(01:04:26):
at Southwark Park Galleries. Ajamu X, who is a legendary
photographer, inspires generations of artists.
I'm sure EJ is now going to tellyou about one of the artists
that he brought to the show, Wayne Lucas, who is brilliant
and has had such an incredible response to his installation.
Hasn't he though? It's been so gorgeous.

(01:04:48):
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Wayne to I'll, I'll live throughthe 80s AIDS crisis here in, in
London. It was under Margaret Thatcher.
The media was misrepresenting and, and causing absolute
hysteria. Really, it's very similar to

(01:05:09):
what we're experiencing now withthe trans community.
You know, this, this, this mediafuneral that is, that's, that's,
that's not speaking the truth basically.
And Wayne has produced recreations using found council
doors that were the same as the ones that he was familiar with

(01:05:33):
from this period when he was a young man in the 80s.
And on the council doors in the toilets, they used to have
horrific graffiti carved into them that was homophobic
graffiti. One of one of the ones he
remembers really clearly was GAYgot AIDS yet, you know, so, so
all these kind of really, reallyrough, very intimidating,

(01:05:57):
frightening kind of language being used in these public
spaces, particularly public men's spaces.
But the other thing that he experienced, even though he was
confronted with this homophobia,was the idea that there were
other gay men out there, that there were other quids out
there. And so it was a nuanced space

(01:06:19):
for him of mixed emotions, mixedvulnerabilities, you know, And
so he's recreated the doors and he's, he's a beautiful artist,
beautiful, beautiful artist, figuratively, all sorts of
things. Got lots of different practices,
embroidery, all sorts of things.And he's carved in the graffiti,
but then he's put in a very finegold leaf into the scratchings

(01:06:42):
of of these abusive words. You know, he's put glory holes
in, but he's embroidered them sodelicately actually, the wool
into the wood in different shades of pink, you know, just
the, the skill and artistry, butthe sheer beauty of it.
But a very controversial idea, you know, And so so the
preciousness of of of the multitude of experiences being

(01:07:06):
reawakened through the materiality of the objects, but
also the sharing of this experience because he hangs the
doors one after another, so on hinges, so you can actually walk
through them as if you are cruising and you are going
through the spaces. And so he passes on knowledge
intergenerationally about being a queer man who who had to

(01:07:29):
navigate his own identity and his own desire, but also public
attitudes on to A next generation who today finds that
this kind of intimacy and and sexual awakening is often
achieved digitally through apps online.
So it's a different culture. And so he's passed on knowledge

(01:07:50):
about the community that goes beyond just fear, you know, but
does recount that to a younger generation.
And I just, I think it's a really, really quite magic
example of the way in which art can talk in a very complex,
experiential way through throughthese incredible works that

(01:08:12):
we're so lucky to have such talented artists being even able
to conceptualize, let alone produce.
I think. I think it's just a really magic
example of of how it it keeps our own culture alive as well.
Thank you so much for this conversation.
Thank. You so much Joanna, for inviting
us on and for talking about the exhibition with us and for your

(01:08:36):
thoughtful questions. We really appreciate it.
I wish you a pleasant summer. Thank you again for your
generosity. Thanks, Joanna.
Thank you. Thanks so much.
Bye. Thank you so much for listening.
It was a pleasure to celebrate Pride Month with this fantastic
interview and to explore the recent and current highlights of
Gemma, Ross, Bentley and EJ Scott's brilliant career.

(01:08:59):
Thanks for listening, we hope you have a great time.
Until the next episode, stay present, stay exhibition Estes,
respect yourself and others, anddon't forget we visit
exhibitions so that you have to take care.