From portrait to self-portrait: Zanele Muholi's activist photography and sculpture

After a hilarious take on Gladiator II by Emily, we explore Muholi's unique path into activism, photography, curated exhibitions, sculpture, and self-imagery. Muholi's work focuses on queer communities in South Africa through a form of what the artist calls "visual activism". But there is also self-portraiture, as the artist is part of this LGBTQIA+ diverse fabric. For Muholi, their use of the pronouns they/them goes way beyond gender identity. It recognises past histories, visible and invisible, and identity as multitude. Muholi says 'There are those who came before me who make me.' Shockingly, Emily and I broke our own rules and actually visited the show together… which turned out to be quite productive. 

To know more about the exhibition: https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern/zanele-muholi

You can follow them on Instagram too: @muholizanele

Follow me on Substack for more topics on art, society, artists and exhibitions.

SUBSCRIBE , RATE AND FOLLOW US. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

If you'd like to have visual content about the episodes, follow us:

Instagram: @exhibitionistas_podcast

Bluesky: @exhibitionistas.bsky.social

You can support us here.

Music by Sarturn.

If you enjoy Katy Hessel's The Great Women Artists Podcast, this episode is for you. It is centred around the artistic practice of non-binary South African artist Zanele Muholi, whose work is steeped in questions of identity and gender in a sophisticated and nuanced way.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Hello and welcome to exhibition esters with me, Joanna and my
spectacular Co host Emily. This is a conversational podcast
where we discuss the body of work of an artist as seen
through their solo exhibition. We're based in London and our
motto is we visit exhibitions sothat you have to.

(00:30):
It doesn't even have to be the exhibition we talk about,
especially if you live far, far away from London.
And by the way, if you do, why not start an exhibition?
It's this club where you live. It could be fun.
So we start this brand new year with an exhibition I've had my
eye on for a while, Zanel Moholy's solo show at Tate

(00:51):
Modern. Shockingly, Emily and I broke
our own rules and we actually visited the show together.
We'll let you know what the outcome was in the episode.
After hilarious take on Gladiator 2 by Emily, we explore
Moholy's unique path into activism, photography, curated
exhibitions, sculpture and self imagery.

(01:14):
Their last series, Somniyama andGonyama almost left us
speechless. It's an exploration of the self
and self representation as plurality from Moholi.
Their use of pronouns they them so they are non binary goes way
beyond gender identity. They acknowledge their ancestors

(01:36):
and the many ways that identity can be constructed.
But mostly identity as multitude.
Moholi says There are those who came before me who make me, and
I can certainly see where they come from.
We are made from all the visiblyrecorded histories behind us,

(01:59):
but also the ones that didn't make it to the present and
remained invisible and untold. And this exhibition is very much
about the latter. So let's do this.
Come visit Mohali's exhibition with you chatty white ladies.

(02:27):
Hello and welcome back to Exhibitionistas Emily here, art
lover and exhibition goer. Thanks to all the folks who've
been with us for the past 12 months.
Yes, one year. It has been a sincere pleasure
to be in your company over the past year of this podcast and a
huge warm welcome for all who are joining for the first time.

(02:48):
If you're new here, Emily and I visit solo exhibitions so that
you have to or so that you can vicariously enjoy them through
us. We share our points of view, but
we also provide a bit of contextand background by researching
the artists. I'm Joanna, independent curator
and writer and artistic directorof Drawing Now Paris.

(03:11):
It's a pleasure and a privilege to be in your eardrums.
And we have a show for you todaythat is extra special.
You might even say rule breaking.
So we're going to discuss Sanel Maholi show at the Tate Modern,
which is going to be around until the 26th of January.
So there's lots to talk about there, but the reason it's rule

(03:32):
breaking is that Joanna and I were there Dun Dun, Dun
together. I know, I know.
And it was, it was so great. So obviously this is a first for
the podcast. Usually we see them separately
and we don't talk about them. We have a golden rule of not
talking about them until we're here together on the podcast to

(03:53):
sort of trade notes and perspectives.
But it feels appropriate that, you know, as we're going into
one year, that we saw the show together, which is why the
podcast was born in the first place.
Indeed. Yeah, it seemed right.
And for me, in many ways it feltlike a 2 for one deal on an
exhibition because it's like I went through first on my own and

(04:18):
then again with you, Joanna, andmy mind was opening and was kind
of experiencing the show anew ina very short space of time.
So that was great. Likewise, I have to say it was
really productive to have a chatwith you.
We had a chat right at the entrance because I had seen the

(04:38):
show before and it really woke me up and it kind of excited me
and, and, and tuned me into things that I thought for you
would be a given. So I was surprised by what you
said and we may discuss this later on, but it was productive.
Maybe we can stop doing it again.

(04:58):
I think occasionally, yeah, we should.
Occasionally, yeah. When we can.
I think it would be really good to have the odd exhibition that
we see together. So here it is, dear listeners
live, we are redefining the rules.
That's it. So before we get into it,
Joanna, how was your week in culture?
Well, not very rich in that respect, I have to say.

(05:21):
I've been reading a few things, but for work, didn't finish
them, but we did something really cool, which was to try to
celebrate the winter solstice. So I mean, in some ways it is a
cultural thing, isn't it? Our daughter Constanza, who we
interviewed for the special, special episode of the

(05:42):
festivities, Family Edition. So she taught us about the Pagan
celebrations around the solstice.
And so we ate a really nice meal, simple but really nice and
heartwarming meal cooked by her and her brother Arthur.
And we told stories at the table.

(06:04):
So what do pagans eat? Not very versed on that, but I
do know that there's some baking.
There's some bread going on. So Konsha baked a bread with
some dried fruits in it. Huh.
That was it was Irish. So an Irish soda bake.
I want to say the other thing you do is that you do a fire, so

(06:26):
you sit around the fire, you decorate a branch or a tree, a
little bit like the Christmas tree comes from there actually.
So there's a lot of things goingon and obviously we couldn't do
most of them because we were toobusy and everything is geared
towards the 24th and the 25th, right?
So we didn't manage to do much, but just the fact of being there

(06:50):
together. We actually celebrated it on the
22nd because we can do it on the21st.
We were invited to friend's house.
So winter solstice is the shortest day in the year and the
longest night. And just this idea of, you know,
being there in at night in the dark with candlelight and just

(07:12):
telling stories around the tableis such a nice, simple thing to
do, just spending time together.So I hope we continue next year.
It was really grounding and and magical and.
And you think of just like how long humans have been doing
that, sitting around a fire, exchanging stories, you know, I
mean, that's the thing. That's.

(07:34):
That's it. Why?
It goes deep, right? I mean.
Yeah, yeah, very deep. You're right.
That's exactly how it felt. So yeah, that was my, that was
my little cultural moment. Yeah.
So I would say very rich then. It was a very rich.
It was very rich. How about you?
What? I'm curious.

(07:54):
Not so rich, not so uplifting. I saw, I saw Gladiator 2.
Just like, don't ask why. It's like, no, it's more than
two hours long, Joanna two more than two long hours plus.
So I liked the first one, but then I realized I was fully half

(08:15):
my age when that thing came out.And this got some good reviews
and Peter was Kane, but it was so, so bad.
Just swords endlessly clanking. You know those sword fights that
just take forever? Clank, clank, clank.
Just kill each other just like somebody get a gun please.

(08:38):
I think they should hire you forthe sound effects next.
Time and just like heroic slow MO and then oh when their buddy
dies or whatever it's just a different version of the same
movie so the Russell Crowe character in this one has a wife

(08:59):
they're going into battle she's a warrior she's a warrior as
well and it's like they exchangerings before the battle.
This is my ring and for you it will be with you forever.
And this is my ring and it will be with you forever.
And I love you wife. I love you husband.
It's just like. So what was in dialogue you that

(09:21):
way? Yeah, that was like the opening.
And I was like, Oh my God, I'm never gonna make it.
It's just humorless. It is completely.
It takes itself so dead seriously for something that is
so preposterous. And I mean sorry, I just have to
say so. The.
Colosseum, they used to flood itapparently in real life like and

(09:42):
have like boats and they would fight from the boats like that
was the thing like. Really.
Used to do in the Colosseum in this they had a scene where it
was flooded and they had sharks in there.
No, you're kidding. You went and got some sea water
then. I mean, I mean, it was just CGI

(10:03):
sharks. Yeah.
The only there was the only bright spot was Denzel
Washington. Like, he was a joy to watch.
He played this really kind of conniving, political, you know,
kind of maneuvering guy. And he was, he was really, he
was he. He made the two hours bearable

(10:25):
at least. So he got 30 minutes out of it
when he was there in the scenes and that's it?
Yeah, the whole two hours. I did take an extended bathroom
break in the middle and sort of walked around the lobby and
looked at the posters, you know?So I take it you were not
entertained? Oh, nice.
Wow, nice fun. Oh, gosh.

(10:51):
But Zanelle Mahali very, you know, that's a bright spot and
we get to talk about that. So that's that's good news.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about the artist?
Sure, absolutely, with great pleasure.
So I'll just start by saying that we will mention sexual
assault in detail related particularly with queer

(11:13):
communities. So if this is not for you today,
dear listener, and if you haven't listened to all our
episodes, dig into our portfolio, just skip it this
time. For example, the Sufiana Babri
episode also touches upon brown queerness, trans and gender non
conforming people in a completely different way that
might be more suited for you. So go there.

(11:35):
And if you have listened to all of the episodes, bravo and thank
you. You know, I visited this show
twice. Just a side note, and the first
time it made me think of the American photographer Nan
Golden, of how gently she celebrated an invisible
community of people living at the very edge of the queer and

(11:58):
artistic New York society she was part of when AIDS, but also
obviously, a certain recklessness of nightlife and
drugs ravaged their joie de vivre, which is the least you
can say about it. Her book I'll Be Your Mirror
titled I'll Be Your Mirror have the same effect on me as a young

(12:20):
adult than Boy George had when Iwas a kid.
It just opens so many possibilities.
But I digress as there are parallels with Zanelle Maholi
but also a specificity in the latter that is unique to South
Africa which is where the artistlives and works.

(12:43):
So Zanelle Moholy is a South African artist born in 1972 in
Umlazi, Durban. They go by the pronouns they
them so they identify as non binary.
They were the youngest of a family of eight kids, four of
which died, so there are now only four.

(13:04):
And Maholi talks about recently having had help from their
sister in their artistic work asa great way of bonding.
So family is really important tothem.
And also this idea of safe spaces which we'll encounter in
the exhibition and also maybe the exhibition as a safe space.
I think it's fair to say, right?So their mum was a domestic

(13:28):
worker of Zulu descendants who lost her husband, the artist's
father, shortly after they were born.
So Maholi speaks Zulu and is very connected with the tribal
history of their people, but also in on a wider perspective.
They recognize S Africans in general and their other

(13:52):
languages and tribal descendantsis so In their 20s, Moholy lived
in Johannesburg, working in different corporate jobs and
also as a hair stylist, until they began working for the
website Behind the Mask, which featured stories of rape,

(14:12):
harassment, abduction, particularly in the queer
community, that were hardly mentioned in the mainstream
media. Such important work.
I mean, you know, I know that this is a South Africa context,
but it just makes me think of there's a lot of work happening
in the States around native communities and women who've

(14:32):
been disappeared and abducted and raped, murdered, etcetera,
but it has not even penetrated at all.
These things gain momentum and visibility.
It's so impressive that they were there, you know, at an
early time. Yeah, it really is.
And also the fact that they're doing it in the present as

(14:53):
opposed to say, for example, in Ireland, all the horrors that
were inflicted on mothers out ofwedlock, for example, that we're
kind of reckoning with now. But we are kind of correcting
history. Whereas here it really is in the
present. And it's such a, such a strong
thing to do and, and, and, and difficult as well and dangerous

(15:15):
as we, we will see. So continuing this strand of
activism, in 2002, they founded Few so Forum for the Empowerment
of Women, which could be pronounced Few, which I find
interesting. I don't know how they say it.
So it's an association providingprotection for women and

(15:38):
advocating for their safety. In 2003, they enrolled in the
Market Photo Workshop Gallery, which was a photography school
founded in 1989 by the South African photographer David
Goldblatt, who mentored them. So Maholi often mentions him and
his generosity. I seem to remember that David

(16:02):
Goldblatt even help them financially, so I hope I'm not
saying anything wrong. But I have this idea because I
remember in a video I watched Maholi saying that and then
quoting Zulu proverbs, saying one hand washes the other,
meaning that helping others creates a chain of support.

(16:24):
And this was directly related toDavid Goldblatt, but also
obviously to the community that they're showcasing and and
rendering visible. That one hand washes the other.
It runs right through the exhibition as well.
I mean, there's there's so many collaborators and participants.

(16:45):
There's a letter from people that meet them at different
points in their work. That that's absolutely true.
And and because of that, I thinkI just want to say a few words
about Goldblatt. So he was a white man of
Lithuanian Jewish descent. So his family fled the
persecutions of Jews in Europe in the 1890s.

(17:06):
So his photography, unlike anti apartheid activists, was not
focused on the violence but on the people.
He did not consider himself a social or well more specifically
a political fighter, but a photographer who thought really
hard about the power of photography in this particular

(17:28):
context, but also the failings of photography.
So I think he was a bit criticized by his activist
friends at the time for not being, let's say, overtly
activists in in his work. Because what he did, I mean his
choice was to photograph people,their work, their life, and to

(17:50):
provide extensive labels explaining the context in
exhibition space or say, in publications.
He followed, for example, black workers who had to endure very
long and exhausting bus rides towork in the city, which was the
effects apartheid had. So he focused more on the way
people were affected by segregation rather than the

(18:13):
violence inflicted on the segregated, which is, I think,
something we're still debating today.
You know, the role of images. I think I've mentioned this
before in regards maybe to Aria Dean, the episodes where we
focused on her exhibition at theICA, because I always remember

(18:34):
being very struck by the moment when George Floyd's video, I
mean, George Floyd's death murder video was circulating.
And I read about Black American activists complaining of quote
UN quote black suffering porn oreven in academia, people talking

(18:56):
about quote UN quote racial horror porn.
So I mean, it is an ongoing debate.
What do you show? How do you show?
How can you inform, I guess rather than emotionally impact
in a way that is very high strung, but that perhaps easily
abandoned. I don't know.

(19:17):
So I, I think that's it's a really interesting debates and
we will see how Maholi also kindof situates themselves in this.
So back to them. In 2009, they completed an MFA
in documentary media at Ryerson,University of Toronto and
Canada. They also founded in Kaniso, a

(19:38):
non profit organization for queer visual activism and very
importantly, media advocacy. So this is all important because
I mean, and we'll talk about this later, but the idea of
visibility for communities who suffer discriminatory violence
or simply occlusion is a key factor in my Holy's art.

(20:01):
And so, in the same pivotal year, 2009, their mum died of
liver cancer. And a lot of the poetic
self-portrait series called Somniyanan Gunyama, which means
in Zulu or Isuzulu, which I alsosaw written.
And I forgive me for my completeignorance.

(20:21):
I, I, I mentioned this because Isaw this and I'm, I don't know
how to say it particularly, but I'm going to go with Zulu.
So it means hail the dark lioness, which is so beautiful.
And it immediately makes me think of Beyoncé.
I don't know why, but oh. God, yeah, totally.
Immediately go there and the series started in 2016.

(20:43):
So in that that there are references to their mum through
domestic and cleaning products, for instance.
So Maholi often references mothers of queer people,
praising them and advocating fortheir recognition and education.
This is going to be a big biographical leap because
throughout the exhibition we will go back and we will go in

(21:05):
detail into other moments of their life.
So in I'll just want to say thatin 2022, they created the Maholi
Art Institute, providing teaching through grants and
stipends for students coming from all over South Africa in
Cape Town. So in regards to the career

(21:25):
they've had so far, so they showtheir work since 2004 all over
the world including the documented 13, the South African
Pavilion at the 55th Venice Pinale and the 29th Sao Paulo
Pinale amongst many other exhibitions recently.
I'm saying this because I know we have quite a few listeners in
France. They show their work at the MEP

(21:49):
Maison European de la Photography, so European Center
for Photography in Paris, and their work is in major
collections across the world such as Murma, Guggenheim,
etcetera. They have had a really
remarkable career, as you say. Yeah.
And I'm just imagining them doing hair at the beginning of
their career, you know, You know, working in the hair salon

(22:13):
and corporate environments. And I think that just gives so
much hope for young artists. Find the seam, find the thread.
Just keep making your way. I mean, not, I mean, obviously
not everyone is going to have this level of success, but it
can feel pretty far away or doing anything artistic could
feel very easily very far away, especially, as you say, when the

(22:37):
subject matter is not easy subject matter.
They entered it through activism.
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah, totally right.
And it's so beautiful. When I was reading their
biography and looking at this Behind the Mask website, right,
that kind of was the entrance into the art world.

(22:57):
So you can always go in through so many aspects.
So yeah, thank you for saying that.
It's really important and success.
What is that? You know, it's not being at the
tape particularly, it's just being able to show your work.
And that's, you know, the the beauty of this, of this story.
Emily, you will take us through the exhibition.

(23:18):
So I'll just introduce a few keynotions now.
So the exhibition follows core projects of the artist across
time, starting in the first roomwith a Doku photographic
projects titled Only Half the Picture, which was started in
2002, the very beginning of their career and which is really

(23:39):
part of their activism work. And the considerable focus of
this room and peace is on survivors of what is called
corrective rape, which is a formof violence on lesbians under
the pretext of healing them from, I mean, healing them.
I say that's really with inverted commas from the
lesbianism through forced intercourse.

(24:01):
So quite a terrifying prospect that is documented in a very
specific way that Emily will talk about for sure.
So this project marks a start ofa career where I think that's
that's one of the things that's really also interesting in this
artist where each medium is at the service of a purpose.

(24:23):
And Maholi talks about an agenda, which is sometimes a
word used against wokeism, I guess.
And I think it's quite funny to just say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do
have an agenda. I think that's amazing.
And they call this agenda, or I mean they call their practice
visual activism, which I find aninteresting theme considering

(24:45):
how Goldblatt, it was important for them in this poignant
awareness of the insufficiency of the image to tell the story.
Thus, the title of this first series that we see in the
exhibition, only half the picture and also the
documentation, the titles and the texts accompanying the
works. However, and this is a big

(25:07):
change in comparison to their mentor, Meholy does bear
witness, but from the inside, asthey are part of the LGBTQIA
plus community, they speak for and also place themselves in the
diverse fabric that constitutes it.
So at the entrance of the show, there's a simple sentence that
speaks volumes about Meholy's modus operandi, which says,

(25:31):
quote, nobody can tell our storybetter than ourselves, UN quote.
So Emily, you brought up when wemet.
So just kind of revealing the conversation we had when we
started talking about the exhibition, you talked about
your relationship with activism.And I am not an activist.
I've participated in ecological,let's say, activism, you know,

(25:55):
occasionally, but I'm not an activist per SE.
You have much more experience inthat and you had a take on it
and I was really interested in asking you about it.
Can you share your views a little bit or what we discussed
about where you come? From yeah, no, totally.
I mean, and you know, my activist kind of days are more

(26:18):
behind me than they are in the present, but used to work on,
you know, campaigns, issue campaigns and elections and such
and was was pretty involved in my earlier career.
But I think, you know, that activists art has a bit of a it
is a bit of a clash for me in mymind and you know, because of

(26:44):
that agenda piece and you know, activism is trying to take you
somewhere. It is trying to, it is
persuading, it is documenting, it is telling a story that is
trying to lead you somewhere. When I've done activism on
affordable housing, for example,we want to highlight the fact

(27:06):
that there's a drastic, you know, under servicing of
affordable housing and we want people to care and we want
people to see what we're doing and we want them to then take
action. And I know that, you know, in in
this realm, sort of visual activism could be something

(27:26):
different than writing a legislator about a certain
issue, which is kind of what we were aiming for.
The activism is trying to take you somewhere and art is, you
know, artistry is like, hey, open up your imagination, I'll
open up mine and let's see what happens.
You know, there's like there's a, there's an exchange that

(27:49):
happens within that that feels freer and potentially even more
impactful than look at this thing.
So I, I went in feeling like, I don't know, I'm not sure I'm
going to like it. You know, I mean, the, the
images are beautiful. I don't know if I'm going to go

(28:11):
away feeling how I would, you know, ideally want to feel after
a after, after an exhibition with just so many thoughts and
ideas in my mind. I'll say I, you know, I was
selling myself short and sellingMaholi short as well.
The, the last room in particular, which we'll talk
about for me, really soared in that artistic sense.

(28:36):
And the sculpture in the exhibition really soared in that
artistic sense. The photography was primarily in
the rest of the exhibition was documenting things, but it was,
it was, yeah, really enriching nonetheless.
Yeah. That it's, it's well, thank you

(28:57):
for that, because it is an ongoing debate.
You'll have to tell me you're the expert.
Yeah, it should all be political.
You know that We have this conversation.
People have this conversation about activism within the museum
walls. And in the Tate's permanent
exhibition of the collection, there's a whole pot dedicated to

(29:19):
the Guerrilla Girls, for example, who focus solely on
rendering the public aware of how little representation female
artists have had in collections,in exhibitions.
And they throw statistics at youand they throw information at
you. And it is a question should that

(29:41):
be considered art or not? It will still be an open
discussion. I've had my views on it change
consistently throughout the timeand I think it's a valid point,
thinking that perhaps the formalisation and the quest for

(30:01):
an aesthetic and a visual language can be undermined by a
message. It is a valid point for sure,
but I also find it really incredible when you have this
position where you are able to hold both.

(30:21):
I mean, photography is this particular medium that has a
very special relationship with reality.
It does cut a piece of reality and bring it onto the image
without providing context. And if you have a bit of
context, then you're bringing tothe museum people who wouldn't
be there if it were not for thisform of activism.

(30:45):
So there's, there's an open debate and there's lots of
positions about it. And I really like that you
brought that in because I had, Ipresumed that you being quite
political and working in that area, you'd be all for it.
You know, I just accepted that without questioning it.

(31:06):
And the first thing you said was, I don't know about activism
in the museum. And I thought, OK, well, that
was not that was unexpected. And that's the beauty of having
these conversations. It is, yeah, it really is.
And, you know, even just in thatfirst room when we had this
conversation and where I was talking about how activist and,

(31:27):
and art is, is not necessarily something I gravitate towards.
And, and you were saying, you know, if I correct me if I'm
getting any of this wrong, but you know, your invitation was,
but where else, as you've said, are we going to have time with

(31:48):
these, you know, people that we wouldn't normally be able to
spend time with and to see things you you haven't seen
before and, you know, be able tomaybe process and accept them,
which is which is true. And, and I guess whether or not
that's art is a, is a, is the debate within the art world.
But this, this first room is well, first of all, the whole

(32:10):
show is made-up of photographs, but it includes really stunning
sculpture, video, some activists, artifacts and kind of
a historical section about SouthAfrican history.
It's massive. So there's 7 rooms at the Tate,
and it runs broadly chronologically with their

(32:31):
earlier work at the start. But that first room is work from
Mahali's first series of black and white photographs, only half
the picture, which you mentionedearlier, and it documents
survivors of hate crimes in South Africa.
So at the start of the show, there's that quote that you
mentioned. No one can tell her story better
than ourselves. So they start with a very, very

(32:52):
intimate version of this. I mean, these are
extraordinarily intimate photographs.
I mean, people are often withoutclothes on, sometimes showing
scars, you know, incredibly intimate moments.
But the identity of all the subjects in the room are
confidential due to privacy issues, as you can imagine,

(33:13):
incredibly important with with victims of domestic violence.
I mean, there's one image of Moholy their legs with slippers
on and a coffee cup. And there's a image of document,
which is a case file for a domestic abuse claim.

(33:34):
You know, you see torsos of trans women who are
transitioning. And so it's really powerful.
I mean, it's A and, and I just, I, I know I keep saying this
word intimate. I mean, even the way they use
the camera, it feels like you are sitting next to these people

(33:57):
or you are almost seeing it fromtheir perspective.
Yeah. So as I mentioned before, there
is text. So there's the titles of the of
the works, there's the image, there's the titles and there's
at times a bit of text. And there were two things that
really struck me in that room. One of them was a photograph, as

(34:18):
you say, very intimate, but fromthe perspective of the
photographer, getting really close to a body taken from the
chest down with open legs. And then a pad, I think it's a
pad where some tissue on the floor between the feet of the

(34:38):
person with blood. And the texts next to it is
about, I think it's Maholi themself.
And it's about this idea that people think that Butch lesbians
don't bleed and this idea that the Butch lesbian is doesn't
belong to the female arena, as it were.

(35:04):
And they are kind of outside. And it's a really interesting
take because so Moholi developedinto seeing themselves as non
binary. And non binary people bleed, you
know, they have female or male genitals, but gender is not
about that. That's the body.
That's a function of some organsof the body for certain people,

(35:28):
and it's a a really good way of starting a conversation about
these things. I think of Tig Notaro, who is
often. So Tig Notaro is a woman.
She identifies as a woman. She's a a female comedian that I
love who has short hair, is a lesbian and often talks about

(35:48):
how she's misgendered all the time and she's very keen on
being seen as seen as a woman who doesn't look like your idea
of a woman. She's very aware of that and
she's quite adamant about it. And I think those things are
very interesting. And so for me, that photo starts
a conversation also about the stigmatization of bleeding for

(36:12):
CIS women. It's not, it doesn't only apply
that that's, that's where for methe activism kind of stops
because I know that there's a very specific context that that
photograph belongs to. But I think it can help more in
a a general awareness of even CIS heterosexual people who have

(36:35):
to hide their bleeding all the time and not talk about it, not
share it with their peers, you know, as they are growing up.
And another thing that really struck me in that room was
there's a vetrine in the middle with documentation specifically
about, I think one of the first times these photos were shown in
South Africa. And there's pages from, you

(36:59):
know, the the the notebook usually have in exhibitions
where you can write feedback. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. Right.
And you have someone saying thisis anti African basically like
the white people brought gaynessand brought queerness into this

(37:24):
amazing masculine feminine like strictly masculine and or
feminine space. Which is a terrifying myth
because it's actually the opposite.
I mean, not the opposite in the sense that it was brought to
white people. That's not what I mean.

(37:45):
But the opposite in terms of there is actually history of
queerness in African peoples. So it, it was really interesting
and it was a very clear and way to have someone speak for
themselves. Like this was the person who
wrote this who is there in the exhibition?
They are there, they're featured, their position is

(38:07):
featured and it's not counterbalance by another text.
It's just the whole exhibition kind of is talking to what that
person saying. So I thought there was a very
strong room in that. Sense yeah and that notion of
debunking that myth is is a big one for from a holy I mean

(38:32):
that's mentioned in another roomas well in the being room which
we'll talk about but we've dipped our toe into the
exhibition why don't we take a quick break get a cuppa come
back and. Yes.
Explore the rest of this really,really magnificent exhibition.
I'm getting a strong coffee. Thank you so much and we'll see

(38:54):
you in a bit. Welcome back.
We are at Zanel Maholi's exhibition at the Tate Modern.
We have just finished the first room, so the next room is like a
huge galley with huge portraits on both sides.

(39:18):
And this is their faces and phases series.
So according to the text, faces refers to the person being
photographed. They worked with several people
over a long period of time and this is essential to their work.
Is this collaboration and participation?
They never call their subjects subjects.

(39:40):
They are participants in the work, so phases refers to a
transition from one stage of sexuality or gender expression
and identity to another. So the work is seen as kind of a
living archive. You're seeing the same people in
a few, you know, I think sometimes it's just one

(40:02):
photograph, but if they have only met with them once.
But the artist normally works with someone over a period of
time. Started this in 2006.
It's over 600 pieces in whole. There's about 120 pieces
represented in the show. And you see people changing, you

(40:23):
know, they're aging, they're wearing different hairstyles,
different clothes, they're expressing themselves over, you
know, different ideas in their lives.
And it's really, you know, it's it's lovely to see those
transformations in very pedestrian ways that we all

(40:46):
change. And also in some of the more
dramatic changes in terms of, you know, their gender
expression in particular. Yeah, I it's funny because rigid
me read the text first, which I don't do all the time.
But you know, having seen the previous room, I thought, OK,
it's important to maybe know thecontext right away.

(41:06):
And the text is very prominent and it's part of the
installation and and their exhibition.
So, you know, I thought it was the thing to do.
And so I read the text and then I was like, OK, great.
Turn to the photographs. It's a a big two very long walls
filled with portraits. And I started looking and

(41:27):
thinking, I'm going to see this progression, this visual
explanation, almost kind of a visual advocating for the
freeing of identity and self-expression.
But the way it's installed, you don't really.
You don't have a beginning and an end for each person

(41:50):
photographed. So I was a bit disturbed by
that, as I told you before. So I went twice.
So the first time I went there, I was really troubled by that
display and I asked myself a lotof questions because I couldn't
recognize anyone. I was unsure.
Because of me, there were singleportraits of very different

(42:11):
people. You can trace back the zanella
somewhere there, and you recognize them really well.
They have this incredible face, an incredible presence.
And then you can recognize a fewpeople.
And I just thought how how weirdthat you can't do I have face

(42:32):
blindness? You know, I was asking myself
lots of questions. And I also, you know, probably
if you listen to the episode about Dido Moriyama, that I have
some misgivings with photography, particularly with
portraiture. I find that it often feels like
butterflies pinned onto a, you know, a surface and then framed.

(42:59):
I have a hard time with that. There's this idea that somehow
your, your, your surface, your skin, your appearance, the shape
of your eyes says stuff about you.
And I'm so against that idea of,you know, being too visual about
people and personalities and what they stand for.
And, and the second time, I wentwith you.

(43:21):
So you helped me through the process and you made me
understand that it was actually really beautiful to lose the
thread and to understand that weare all together.
We're kind of intertwined. And maybe I'm you and maybe
you're me. I mean, that's how I read it the
second time around. And maybe we are all kind of

(43:43):
connected and not just these identities, which is what anti
woke. I mean just saying this for lack
of better expressions. People are, you know, saying
like, oh, you're so focused on yourself, you're self
identifying and you know, you'rebeing so egotistic.
And here it's just saying, no, we're just a fabric of

(44:04):
togetherness. And of course we have our own
personal histories and we have our own specificities, but we're
also part of this fabric of thishuge net around the world, but
also very locally in this space.So I also learned in the

(44:24):
exhibition that after the apartheid, South Africa had
really progressive laws regarding same sex marriage and
the recognition of queerness. They were the the 5th country I
think to recognise same sex marriage.
However, it's also the country that has the most violence,

(44:46):
queer hate crimes. So there's a big discrepancy
between the law and the social reality.
So it's even more, it's even more courageous, I think, to to
be out there and to have a portrait in that context of
yourself as, you know, framed insuch a way.

(45:09):
So that was my journey, yeah. No, I hear.
You sorry it was too long. Not at all.
Not at all. I mean, I think, yeah, a
portraiture can leave me a little flat as well.
And but I think, you know, kind of sitting with with it and what

(45:30):
you said I think is something I came away with too, was just the
courageousness and the context within which these portraits are
being taken is enormous. I mean, South Africa, they have
South Africa as a through line, yeah, in their entire, in the,
in their entire exhibition and their work.
But the fact that you can see, you know, a bit of a journey

(45:55):
that some of these folks are taking is, is really phenomenal.
And I think, you know, looking at that as a, you know, a
heterosexual white woman who hasnot had to think about so much
about their sexuality, about my gender orientation because the

(46:18):
entire world was like, you know what?
You're cool. That's true.
You know, I mean, I I didn't that sort of mirror, I didn't
have to do the hard looking and really cultivate that for
myself. And it was, which I think we
should. I mean, I think, you know, I

(46:40):
think there's, there's so much there there to explore, you
know, about one's sexuality and gender identification, even if
you are someone who's sort of like me, identifies with the
status quo more or less, you know, I mean, you know, I think
of this all the time. It's like, you know, I'm a

(47:01):
heterosexual woman, therefore I'm attracted to men.
But really there are so few men I am attracted to.
I mean, like, if you really think about it, you know, it's
like, so, So is that what sexuality is?
I don't think so. So, but, but going back to the
exhibition, I think that's, it'ssuch a gift to experience that

(47:24):
on some level and through these portraits of people exploring
that for themselves and demonstrating that for
themselves in such a, in such a,you know, definitive way.
And the other thing that Maholi works with is the gaze.
They are really tuned into that notion of the gaze and.

(47:50):
Absolutely. And, and when I was looking at
the images, they are all really confident.
They are all looking back at me with a with a clarity and not
confrontation, but a real conviction about who they are.
There's maybe one or two that look a little bit timid in their

(48:13):
countenance, but that feels veryintended.
You know, I don't think I don't think you could get that that
sort of feeling of here I am andthis is it and go ahead and have
a look. You couldn't get that if it
weren't sort of really crafted into the.

(48:33):
Work, they, they travel all over.
There's this love for South Africa as well.
I know some people that live there or they're all from there,
and you always hear about the violence and you always hear
about especially Joburg, Johannesburg, you know, as being
like having areas where you can't go.

(48:55):
What's beautiful about these videos is that so Moholy goes
everywhere and they work with the people that are photographed
in the way that is very collaborative and affirmative.
And there's this notion of goingtowards people that found their
safe space as well. And there's never this idea of

(49:18):
fear of violence. And it's an incredible work
behind the camera that takes place.
And I also like with all the reticence I have with
photography, I also like this idea that that sometimes I think
of the exhibition as just the place where the artwork lands

(49:39):
for a certain time. But the artworks and the art
projects have a life of their own outside of the exhibition
space and will continue to have a life of their own outside of
the exhibition space. And I think you feel that really
well in this exhibition. Yeah, no, that's a good point
because it is so place based. Their context is South Africa

(50:04):
and we'll go further into different places and there's a
real evolution of place that happens throughout the
exhibition itself, which we definitely will talk about.
But I think that's right. I think there's, there's such a
a feeling of place throughout itthat it's hard to you.

(50:26):
You can't, you can't pull that apart from the work.
And you can imagine it naturallyliving in, you know, in other
places. So, yeah, no, I think that's
that's really true. I hadn't thought about that as I
was walking through it. But I think you're absolutely
right. That aliveness that it has
beyond the beyond the tape. So the the portraits, the

(50:50):
portrait room leads to a room that's entitled being.
It depicts couples and everyday acts of intimacy between some
lovers, between friends. And these are really beautiful
images. I mean, again, very intimate,
like the first room, but you know, where the first room is,
you know, documenting survivors.This is much more kind of

(51:14):
positive and loving and and in avery natural way.
So the artist is keen to dispel this myth, as you mentioned,
that persisted that colonialism brought homosexuality to Africa
and it doesn't didn't exist before then.
When in fact, you know, there was even a story on the in the

(51:34):
text about certain people that were celebrated that could like
a woman in certain tribes that would have many wives, you know,
I mean, and that this is part ofthe folklore.
And so the images you see are really stunning.
Vaseline on the lens and some tomake a very kind of blurred, a

(51:58):
blurred effect and and there's kind of, you know, intimate
shots in bedroom setting. There's but there's just like
kind of people being together and touching in a friendly or
intimate way, bathing or kissing.
And it's just really heart warming.

(52:19):
And there is a giant sculpture of the full anatomy of a
clitoris in the room as well. Which is.
Which is truly. Yeah, which is great.
Which is. Which is a joy.
Yeah. It's such a joy.
It looks like a bird. Yeah.
A little bird it does it. Kind of does.

(52:41):
There's a hole in the middle, like really circular and
perfect. Yeah.
And you can go around it, there's some flaps, and it's
bronze, so it's super heavy. Yeah, but it doesn't feel heavy
at all. It just feels like it's going to
flop its wings and fly somewherein the orgasmic vibration.

(53:05):
Yeah. Totally Oh my God, and it's it's
black and gold, you know, and ityou can walk all the way around
it and really, you know, get close to it and it kind of has
four points that meet the groundand it looks like it might just
just like crawl away. It might just it might just get

(53:25):
up and like move to another room.
Go go check another room out or something.
They are such a talented photographer and yet then can
produce something like that. It's.
Such a talent. Such a talent and.
Such a leap in literature. You're always reading about the
female genitals as a whole, as awhole, to be like a void right,

(53:51):
to be penetrated or entered. And here there's a whole
consistency. And even just like the clitoris
is often thought of as one smallpoint.
And what's you know this is thisis really showing the the full
anatomy of it of a much more complex Organism.
Yeah, the nerve ending that is kind of rhizomatic and and so,

(54:16):
yeah, it's great. So moving on to the next room
after this joyful discovery. And then now we get into a a
section that's called queering public Space.
So the artist is showing images of transgender women, gay men,

(54:38):
gender non conforming place people in places, intersex.
People. Yeah.
And these are people who are on the beach.
They're on, you know, kind of Constitution Hill, I think was a
kind of a famous place in Joburgwhere some of the images were

(54:58):
taken. But the, the point is, is that
people are they're kind of full expression of themselves really
beautiful. Some of the shots using sort of
sweeping fabric and reflections.And so the, the artistry of the
photography is, is great. It's bringing the expression of

(55:19):
gender nonconformity and in all of its arrays to the public
sphere, which is which is cool. And that, that I might like the
most, is the giant image that covers one entire wall that's
taken at the beach. And it's maybe like a dozen
transgender women in bathing suits on their knees, kind of in

(55:41):
1/2 horseshoe shape, getting their picture taken.
And most of the beach, the beachis packed with people.
It's absolutely packed with people.
And most people are just sort ofunawares and are doing their
thing. But there's a few people that
are sort of walking by or nearerthat are having a little second

(56:02):
glance. And, you know, some of them are
just like, oh, wow, you know that?
And some people have a bit more curiosity washed across their
face. But yeah, it's just, it's a
great image. And in the middle there is a
beautiful again, a beautiful sculpture of a person lying down
on the ground with a blanket over them and two bolsters under

(56:26):
their head. Are they sleeping?
I think they might be sleeping but I I liked.
I have done wait they are sleeping.
Yeah, and I just love. And it's Zanel Maholi
themselves, because they have such a distinctive face.
So you can see it's them the thesculpture is bronze again.

(56:47):
So they say that they use bronze.
Because I was really curious about that.
I was like, why? Why?
Because these pictures in this room all have people who
improvise, construct, build their outfits through found

(57:09):
objects, not found objects, but objects that wouldn't be used
for clothing. So there's this kind of
tradition of drag Queens particularly to make their
garments from what they can find.
Why is culture in such a traditional, especially when
you're looking at this kind of improvised, makeshift aesthetic,

(57:32):
Why bronze? You know, it's such a
traditional European language and material.
And so they say that they use bronze because they want to make
sure that these queer images arenot going to go anywhere and
they're going to last forever and they're going to be in
history. And suddenly by hearing that, I
remembered all these texts that I've read about people

(57:55):
complaining about the lack of archives.
So I found that really interesting because again, it's
working in the present to make sure that in the future history
will be constructed differently.So that that's really
interesting. As well, I think, and I heard, I
heard that they wanted bronze tomatch some of the European

(58:20):
statues that are bronze. Like think of Trafalgar Square,
think of, you know, any square in Europe.
And that there was an exhibition, I think it was in
Paris where these bronze sculptures were outside in the
manner that you might see man ona horse commanding, you know,
his army. That would be really wonderful

(58:42):
to see, you know, outside of theexhibition space and the white
cubes of, you know, galleries across Europe and really out
into the central square where they can be celebrated in the
same manner that. So I mean, I walk by those in
London all the time, those big bronze sculptures of men.

(59:03):
And I'm like, who is this guy exactly?
It's I've never heard of him, you know, I mean, and, you know,
it's like, and but they're all the same.
They're all sort of, you know, heroic figures and some kind of
army garb of one time or another.
And fine, they did important things, but, you know, other

(59:24):
people. It would be great to see other
versions of that. Someone put on Instagram like
who is great enough to be immortalized in stone or bronze?
I think no one maybe shall we stop doing this?
You know? And it was an interesting take,
but I cannot not tell the story of an Angolan artist called

(59:48):
Kilwanji Kiya Henda. And he did something amazing,
which was that in Luanda, I think it's Luanda in Angola,
there's this empty plinth where a sculpture of some Portuguese
historical figure was portrayed by a statue there.
And so it was taken down after the independence of Angola,

(01:00:10):
though he did a whole project over there which was to invite
people. To, I think, spoken word people
of queer communities, but not only to take the plinth and
perform there, perform on the plinth.

(01:00:30):
And I thought it was such a beautiful idea, which is this.
You are a temporary sculpture while you're still alive.
And then you go about your life and you are imperfect for sure,
but what you do and what you perform is the important thing
about you. It's your action.
And I thought that was so interesting.

(01:00:52):
And now we're looking at these bronze sculptures of the artists
themselves. So again, self-expression, which
is not about being heroic. Great.
So the next room we have is called Brave Beauties.
And so we've gone from a public space to a curated audience

(01:01:14):
space. So in this room, there's a lot
of a lot of pageant holders, youknow, people who've been part of
beauty pageants and they have the sashes or people who are
replicating poses from like a fashion magazine cover, you
know, in a swimsuit, you know, knee high in the water, you

(01:01:37):
know, that kind of thing. And so you're going from, you
know, the the places where people might be around and might
be looking at you to you have anaudience here in these images.
And I love a beauty queen. I mean, I there is something so

(01:01:58):
beauty pageants themselves, checkered history, all of it.
I get it. You know, I get that it's a
performance of gender that isn'talways healthy, but there is
something about the vulnerability of that goes into
those pictures and also something very empowering about
people who have been denied access to those taking some

(01:02:23):
taking up space in that in in that realm.
In that room there's a video, and the second room, so the
following room, there's another video where these beauty Queens
speak for themselves. And then people who of that
LGBTQIA community that Zanella Mahali brings to the museum or

(01:02:46):
to exhibition spaces speak for themselves and for their own
experience. And they're so diverse.
I think one of the good things that it does, I think this
exhibition, is to explain how diverse queerness is and how
horrifying it is when you reduceit to just one aspect of it, and

(01:03:10):
how conflicting some of these positions are as well.
I mean, so, so you're talking about sharing stories, which is
the activists video, some of whom were involved.
Sorry, yes. In the In the Faces and Phases
project. So they're telling stories about
how they're improving lives within the queer community.
And I think what was important about that too is because of the

(01:03:33):
stigmatization of queer people. I mean, this is in South Africa
for sure, where it seems to be more pronounced.
But I'd say everywhere how just just watching people talk about
how they're caring for their communities just seems so

(01:03:53):
logical when people start thinking about the trans issues
and gender fluidity. And, you know, it can feel like
turbulent waters and watching those stories, it's just people
talking about caring about people.
I mean, it's just, there was just something just so and and

(01:04:15):
who wouldn't want to be a part of that?
And yeah, so I, I just, I mean, they're, they're just regular
videos, literally camera on a person from the shoulders up
talking primarily. And it was just so relatable on
just a regular human level that I found really nice.

(01:04:36):
And it positions yourself in therole of the listener, which is
something that is not happening a lot nowadays, to just listen
to experiences and just maybe pay attention and realise that
they're not your experience. You don't have to understand
everything, but understand in the sense that like partake in

(01:05:00):
whatever that experience is, butyou can accept it as it being a
possibility just by listening, you know, just by paying
attention. And because I think it also
positions the spectator into this network of caring.
As I was reaching this point thefirst time I went, I started
looking at people around me and thinking, oh, you know, what are

(01:05:25):
these people thinking about this?
There was this feeling if we're all here kind of listening and,
and looking and, and watching. And also in this context of
beauty, I think there's also this idea of beauty that is
being questioned, the restrictednotion we have.

(01:05:46):
And I say we, you know, all societies in different ways have
beauty, which is such a constricted and small space
where only, you know, 2% of the population can fit.
And here suddenly it's like it'sbeen opened up and extended.
And, you know, the fact that they were a hair stylist at some

(01:06:07):
point made me think of a story Iread.
I think it was in The New Yorker.
I don't know when, what context,but it was this person who had
been a makeup artist in this shop, in the shopping center
where they, you know, people come and they can be made-up.
And they were saying by doing that and spending so much time
on people's faces, I ended up byjust by the time I had to spend

(01:06:29):
with them to find everyone utterly beautiful.
And I just thought, wow, that's what I felt in this exhibition,
the following room. OK, right.
Oh, here we go, the explosion. Because this is where a gear
shift happens, and yeah, it absolutely unfolds into a new

(01:06:56):
territory. So as we've talked about, the
nature of the exhibition thus far has been helping the viewer
enter into worlds and view things they might have not seen
before. But it has a documentary thread

(01:07:16):
through it. In this last, well second to
last room technically, the artist explodes into, to my
mind, a place where they are like, go where your mind and
imagination are going to take you.
They're not trying to show you something you wouldn't see

(01:07:39):
before. It's their own history and deep
psyche being expressed. And hey, where does your deep
psyche go when you see this? You know they are working with
the gaze. All of these images are the

(01:07:59):
artist. They are painted in really dark
skin tone, much darker than their own.
And there's a lot of wardrobe happening I guess is maybe a way
to put it. They're black and white
photographs. Exactly.

(01:08:20):
They're black and white photographs and they are dealing
more with racial identity here and they are magnificent.
Yeah. OK, so they are a photographer,
an activist, a sculptor, and theway they bring their presence to

(01:08:42):
these images as a model, you cannot look away.
I was so blown away by this room.
The blackness of the skin is emphasized, so they I think they
paint themselves or they emphasize it in post production.
The the lips sometimes are painted white and the white of
the eyes is emphasized as well. So there's this important

(01:09:06):
statement about colorism as well.
The idea of colorism is that youcan go up to a certain point in
blackness, but from a certain point onward.
But there's no way that's going to be deemed beautiful or even
photographed because one of the reasons there weren't many black
actors in cinema for a long timeis that, oh, it's so hard to
film. Yeah, very dark people, you know

(01:09:29):
so. Lighting is difficult.
Lighting, you know, and here youhave the the darkest of ducks
and it's arresting, you know, tosay that.
But also the Meson San is incredible.
So I find this room very overwhelming because there is so
much work on to each image. There's one, I'm not sure it's

(01:09:51):
there. It's when I was researching this
project where they were talking about the intricateness of
blackness and of ethnicity and they were saying like, where are
the Afro Afro Japanese people, for example?
What about them? And so they clothed themselves
in a kimono and like stuck theseI think we're hair and pins that

(01:10:17):
would would be Japanese like. So a lot of the imagery is
confusing. You don't know exactly what it's
saying. It's complex and you can spend
an hour, you know, looking at each image quite.
There's one where there's and wespent some time in front of it.
The artist enveloped in bicycle tires and the expression they

(01:10:42):
have is always very difficult toread, is usually quite stern,
but not always deep. It's very deep and concentrated.
And so I read about this, that picture that they were relating
to a particular event, and they were also thinking back to the

(01:11:03):
fact that there was something called, and I hope I'm not
misremembering, I think it was called necklacing, which was to
put tires around black people and setting them on fire and
thus killing them, obviously in the most horrendous of ways.
Again, a horrifying thing that is not identified as such.

(01:11:26):
So that's also, I think one of the strengths of I think an
artwork is when it's very personal, but also not wanting
to give away all the history behind it.
There is a variation of reactions that you can have to
it according to your own background.

(01:11:46):
And I found it really interesting, Emily, that you as
an American will react to the imagery in with your particular
history. Do you want to talk about it?
Sure. Yeah.
So minstrel shows, yes, which was in the 20s, thirties, maybe
even later. It erupted from vaudeville, and

(01:12:06):
it was where white actors would put blackface on and mimic black
behavior in a really racialized,horrible way.
There were some gestures that they used in some of the images
that reminded me of that. So in a couple of the images,
they wore bright gloves, which is a common thing in minstrel

(01:12:28):
shows. And some of the some of the
facial expressions also kind of there were a couple with very
wide eyes and obviously just theblack painted skin that was
accentuating darkness of the skin.
And that's what minstrel shows did.
And there's so much American artfrom, you know, that African

(01:12:51):
American artists make that reference that as well.
I mean, one kind of somewhat recent example is Donald Glover
has Childish Gambino in his ThisIs America video, and he kind of
dances around in sort of a minstrel show kind of way.
But but yeah, so there was definitely echoes of that in

(01:13:14):
some of the images. So some of the background is
that their mother was a domesticworker and a lot of the
wardrobe, I guess in the images reflect that.
So there's one with a lot of clothes pins all around and they

(01:13:38):
are wearing a rug, like a rug you'd find on the floor around
their shoulders and it's clippedwith clothes pins.
And there's one where they're wearing a really elaborate sort
of woven straw, bit of straw rope, I guess, around the neck.

(01:14:01):
And their hair is high. And perched on top of their hair
is a stool, like a short stool. Oh, yes, yes.
That you might sit on to clean the floor.
And I was looking at that. And with all of the images, they
are so arresting in their gaze. I mean, they're, you cannot not

(01:14:23):
look at these and everything about the backdrop.
And I, I can just imagine how many hours it took to craft
these images and get together because they are just full as
full can be. But looking at this and
thinking, you know, it's, it's abit ridiculous in a sense that
they have a stool on their head and yet there is nothing funny

(01:14:48):
or whimsical about it at all. It is conveyed with power and
intention. And you, you engage with that
visual in such a different way. I feel like they could have,
they could have just veered off a little bit and it would have
felt like, but they they just kept to the power of the gaze.

(01:15:12):
I didn't think of that. That's so true because I as you
were speaking, I was thinking it's very humorless.
The the exhibition and the subjects, well, not subject
participants in the portraits are the ones bringing humor.
Should that be their personality?

(01:15:32):
But as an Elma holy themself hasthis seriousness and this
sternness and it while we were talking, it made me think of
Hannah Gatsby and her show and Nanette where she completely
upturned the deflection by humorof your weirdness or your

(01:15:56):
difference, which is something that you do to protect yourself
but also end up by negating youridentity by making fun of it.
Then there was a lot of talk about that in stand up comedy
where, you know, if you're fat, you make fun of being fat.
If you're this, you make fun of being this.

(01:16:18):
And yeah, I did not think of that.
But it's even in the videos I watched of Holy, they're always,
they have this very deep presence, you know, this very
aware presence of others. And that's one of the reasons
that they decided to do self portraiture because they said in

(01:16:38):
this process of caring for others, you end up kind of like
not including yourself in there.And it's a way of including
themselves and kind of looking inward and to their own history
and how it kind of resonates with whatever's happening in the
world. And and so that's kind of the
missing point. And as you say, I agree it is
the strong point of the exhibition because there's this

(01:17:03):
point where also like the sculptures, where suddenly
there's a sublimation of an aesthetic, a language that is
being created in front of your eyes.
And photography has that very moving thing when it's when
there's a meson San, which is that you know that the person

(01:17:23):
picked those elements very carefully, put them on, took
some time, put on the makeup andyou know, kind of like took this
whole time to get to that point.Yeah, Yeah, the I agree.
I agree. I mean, I think that that that
room really felt like it opened my mind in a way and my

(01:17:46):
imagination and took me into something in a yeah in a way I
didn't expect. And I wasn't sure what happened
in quite a documentary style exhibition, but yeah, it was, it
was fantastic. And there's a there's apparently

(01:18:06):
a book of all of those self portraits.
They have been working on that since 2012.
So there might be a lot of additional images that weren't
in the exhibition itself. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I'm. I'm here for it.
So I propose that we wrap this up.
This was really enjoyable. But I have one last question for

(01:18:28):
you, which is what was your highlights of exhibition Estas
during 2024? Because it's the only year we've
existed, but it's been a whole year on the 27th of January I
think will be a whole year. So what's your If you had to
pick one thing, what would be your highlight?

(01:18:51):
So. One thing.
I'm so sorry I put you on the spot.
Yeah. Boy, you know, Philip Guston was
the one, the first one that I researched.
And so that has a very strong presence in my mind.
And that exhibition was I I thoroughly enjoyed it.

(01:19:11):
But yeah, I mean, I think that one, but also I would say Zainab
Salah. Oh yeah, you did.
Something for me, I mean, there was just something, you know,
it's funny, looking back, I was quite ill and didn't know it and

(01:19:32):
was tired all the time and was looking at her images of, you
know, peacefulness and rest and,you know, the cat on the carpet.
And I was like, oh, you could just take a nap down there.
And so I remember it with it being, you know, it being

(01:19:52):
something that was probably speaking to me in a way that I
didn't even understand at the time.
She is at David. Vanna's gallery.
No, no. Yeah, exactly.
Now back at you, girl. Which one?
Oh damn. Oh, sorry, I was so focused on
asking you the question that I didn't think that I would have
to answer it. Gosh, highlights of 2024, when I

(01:20:17):
look back, what comes to mind immediately?
That's a good exercise. I think Yoko Ono was was a big
one for me. I was.
So it was a powerful experience as an exhibition.

(01:20:38):
It was really great to find out more about someone I had so many
wrong ideas about. I had listened to a podcast
about her, so I knew about a little bit more about her, but
it wasn't focused on the artworkand just being able to rewrite

(01:21:00):
history for myself while realizing that I had Grapefruit
the book in my home all this time and didn't even realize.
I mean, I did, but it do you know when you know?
I love the feeling that the podcast gives me of knowing
something that actually I didn'tknow and then really spending

(01:21:25):
time with it and finally assimilating it because you have
a lot of data in your head, but spending time with certain
things and choosing a specific angle on them really brings them
home and makes you assimilate things that you didn't
otherwise. And I also love Dido Moriyamas

(01:21:49):
because. Oh, hello, that's unexpected.
I, I love the feeling of making an effort to go beyond my likes
and dislikes. And that was a huge 1.
And it was the first time. So yeah, that was, that was a
big one for me where I also kindof like put into practice this

(01:22:13):
principle of being very open. And even if it's not something
that emotionally works 100% for me and is my personal fold,
let's say like the way I'm made and and the thing that I will be
drawn to. I loved opening myself up to a

(01:22:34):
context to to a story, to something behind it.
Yeah, that was yeah, that was really powerful.
This is the great thing about exhibitions, is it not?
It's like somebody you think youknow and you can reorient
yourself to them, like Yoko Ono or maybe even Mike Kelly.

(01:22:57):
But then also it's like somebodywho don't know that sort of
reorients things inside your ownheart and mind and psyche and
spirit. Yeah, it's there's, there's
nothing else quite like it. There isn't.
Absolutely. So that said, it's time to wrap

(01:23:17):
up. Thank you so much, Emily.
Thank you for this. This is the first episode of
2025. Here's hoping for, well,
surprising. It's going to be 2025.
We know that now since 2020, nothing, you know, no year is
like the the previous in this inthis decade.
But here's hoping that we'll have some incredibly exciting

(01:23:39):
episodes. I know we will.
Thank you all for listening. Thank you for sticking with us.
Here's to another year of Exhibition Missus.
Exactly. Happy New Year everyone, and
happy New Year, Jovana. See you too.
And we'll see you soon. Thanks so much.
See you soon. Bye, bye, bye.

(01:24:36):
Music.