Giuseppe Penone–Sculpture as Breath, Drawing as Skin

Giuseppe Penone is a contemporary artist associated with the Arte Povera art movement. He reinvented sculpture, drawing, conceptual photography, art installation, through proto environmental art with the sensibility of a late late romantic.

Curator and art critic Germano Celant created the term #artepovera in 1967 to highlight a tendency toward a use of reduced material or idea to its archetype. How does Penone fit into that notion? He seems to have had a singular place in the Italian and global Western art canon of the time, using organic growth as an art process that the artist mirrors, plays and aligns with. Have we been forcing a dialogue between his work and Celant’s concept? What other relations with memory and matter has he expanded through his work? Was he a pioneer of eco-art? A late romantic? All of the above? 

Artist ⁠Diogo Pimentão⁠ is my co-host for the first time. As ever, I’ll introduce the artist and he’ll take us through this small retrospective exhibition at the Serpentine Gallery. 

Curated by Claude Adjil, Curator at Large, and Hans Ulrich Obrist, Artistic Director, with Alexa Chow, Assistant Exhibitions Curator.

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Episode Transcript

(00:04):
I'm Joanna Pyroneves, your host,and this is exhibitionist this
I'm an independent writer and curator with a wide-ranging 2
decades career in contemporary art, from commercial galleries
to art fairs, from research to curating, from Lisbon to London

(00:26):
through Paris. When I'm asked what I do outside
the outworld, the inevitable reaction is, oh, I don't know
anything about contemporary art.Ouch.
So call it a midlife crisis, call it arrogance, but I gave
myself the task of trying to fill that gap with Co host

(00:46):
conversation Episodes centered around a genuine exchange of
thoughts, feelings and precious context around solo exhibitions,
interviews and special episodes based on a particular topic to
keep you alert and on your toes.If you want to read further into

(01:07):
some of the topics discussed in the episodes and more, you can
also find me on Sub Stack under my name, Joanna Pyroneves.
This is an episode where we discuss the work of an artist
through their solo exhibition and today we're talking about

(01:28):
artist Giuseppe Pinone. So in the first part I will take
you and my Co hosts through his career and after the break you
get to visit the exhibition withus.
You can go on Spotify or YouTubefor video, or you can go to our
Instagram account where I usually post clips of my
exhibition visits and also shareexhibition views.

(01:52):
There's also some cats Terruption clips and if you
don't know what that is, I really urge you to go and check
them out. Our newsletter is also worth
signing up for. You can go to
exhibitionistspodcast.com on ourhomepage and you'll know what
the next episode is going to be about.
You can get reading suggestions,some facts about exhibition

(02:15):
spaces and much more. So as I said, the artist we were
talking about today is Giuseppe Penone and his exhibition
Thought in the Roots. My Co host today is a newcomer.
He is the first full blown artists established artist that
we have in the podcast. His name is Diogo Pimentel.

(02:37):
He's an innovator in the field of drawing and he takes it to
video performance and volume andmuch more.
But for Full disclosure, I also have to tell you that he is my
husband. So we're ready to talk about the
exhibition. Welcome to the podcast Yoga for
the First Time. Oh, lovely to meet you.

(02:57):
To me, meet this persona. So Giuseppe Penone, I learned a
lot about him. He was, well, first of all, he
was born into a family of farmers.
So already you can see that he'sreally connected to
historically, even to the soil, to the earth.
I'm so happy you're talking about that because I know the

(03:19):
work. I'm close to some of the works,
not all of it. I'm still discovering.
It's incredible. It's very prolific, but I don't
know much about his background. We can predict there's closeness
to nature, probably raised in nature.
But by all means, sorry, I just cut your.
No, I love your enthusiasm. So he was born into this family

(03:45):
farmers, and he grew up in the town of Garcia.
So it's in the Pimon region of Italy, so north of Italy, near
the Ligurian Alps. And he was really in an area of
Europe that is absolutely breathtakingly beautiful.

(04:05):
And it has all aspects of what you can imagine Central Europe
to be in terms of landscape, in terms of the elements.
So you have the river. So the river traverses.
I think it's the. Outskirts of Alps, right?
So maybe even with the mountains, all the rivers, the
fresh waters and wow. Exactly.

(04:26):
Freshwater forests. So even in the city, you have
the Aqua San Bernardo, which is supposed in Italy, famous for
its healing properties. And also, I mean, Garcia is
described as being one of the most beautiful cities of Italy.
It's all stone, old buildings, all churches.

(04:48):
And he also had a grandfather. He was a sculptor.
So he describes his house as being full of busts sculpted by
his granddad. And his mom was also quite
artistic. So from the age of 6 onward, she
really encouraged them to draw. So he wasn't completely
disconnected from this idea of art because you can have this

(05:11):
notion of him being, I mean, he's 100 kilometers South of
Torino, but he is also engaged somehow with the idea of art of
or being an artist. I see introduced to it by
different generation as well. Exactly.
And at 16 he was near a river and he looked into it and he saw

(05:34):
those rocks, you know, those, those little stones inside the,
the, the river. And he decided to draw each
stone in that body of water he was connecting to the
singularity of each and every element, so each unity through

(05:57):
drawing and also through a systematic scope of relating to
something via the eye, so via observation.
It's a great story, the stone one trying to draw each one of
them. He reminds me of aesthetic
teacher at art school. He was as a child, he was

(06:18):
sitting down with the sea and hewas with rocks destroying
seashells and with other smallerrocks as well.
And then an adult came asking what what are you doing?
And he said I'm making sand because he realized that the
sand was composed with all, you know, those little elements,
broken shells. And but then you look around

(06:40):
you, you are sitting in sand. You don't need more.
What are you adding to the equation?
But it reminded me that's kind of but it will.
Be his sand. You have made those 3 grains of.
Sand and we Pannoni trying to draw all.
That's a beautiful story. It's a beautiful story and it's
also kind of brings to mind a very romantic relation with

(07:04):
thoughts. So romantic slash ecological.
I think your friend's story is interesting as well, because I
was asking myself, is he connected to Romanticism?
I mean, Romanticism appeared at the end of the 18th century as
this turmoil, you know, the the Napoleonic Wars and the the

(07:25):
Industrial Revolution and this need to be revolutionary and to
take your destiny into your own hands.
When you're feeling that the world is huge, societies
developing the systems of power are dissipating and being
questioned and you're not seeingnew ones arriving there are
quite satisfactory. And so there was this need of

(07:46):
like, gathering your strengths and also trying to reinvent
yourself, and this notion of individualistic need of rebuild
something and rebuild a connection with nature, right?
It's Artipovera before it it happened somehow.
You're already describing what they did.

(08:07):
Yeah, Povera is being kind of a sort of a continuation of that
romanticism. First computers appearing, you
know, in Torino, it was the FiatCity, but also the workers at
the the automobile industry werenot satisfied in what it was.
The end of the Sixties, 1968, all of that revolutionary

(08:29):
sentiment coming up again. In 1966, he enrolled in the Art
Academy of Torino, but he dropped out a year later.
And his account of that year is that he was much more interested
in the work that he was seeing in galleries there, namely the
Artipo Vera artist. So Gilberto Zorio, who I think

(08:53):
for me is the dreamer, Giovanni Anselmo, and you know, all these
artists that were christened as Artipo Vera artists by Germano
Cheland in 1967. So during that year, in an
exhibition that he curated in Genoa when Chelant was 27 years
old. So Chelant was born in 1940.

(09:16):
He was 27 at the time. 27. He was 27, right?
That's kind of bonkers. And so Chelant coined this term,
and I think we can kind of, like, open the parenthesis here.
Who was Chelant? You know, who was this
character? So he was a towering figure in
the Italian and international arts panorama as a curator and

(09:39):
an art critic, born in 1940. As I said, he passed away in
2020 from COVID when he was 79. His that.
Yeah, that's quite sad. And his legacy, well, it's quite
controversial because he was a very kind of, he was a character
and he was part of that group ofcurators, all male mostly, who

(10:02):
were these bigger than life, youknow, figures like Harold Zeman.
Curators at the time had this kind of monolithic power, you
know, in contrast with today where you have so many curators,
you have groups of curators working together.
It was kind of a patriarchal structure.
You know that is is what I'm trying to say and I will say it.
So no, and I do agree and I romanticize and I was, you know,

(10:24):
learning to admire that moment as well.
So many artists, women artists, working at the same time, with
them, next to them and not mentioned.
This is also a big account and why the conversation of what is
the role of the curator and especially what is the role of
the institutional curator? Are you there to leave your mark
or are you there to be the person who represents a whole

(10:45):
segment of your time in terms ofcreativity?
So chill and Corey Anderson described them was said that he
looked like Zorro. So he was also the senior
curator of the Guggenheim from 1890, 2008 and then he worked
for the Prada Foundation in Milano until his death.

(11:07):
Chalanti. Chalanti was with his sword
making peace. The Povera not Zeds from Zorro.
OK. AP Arte Povera, when he coined
the time in 60-7 and then in 69 added Pinoni to the group.
That didn't last for a very longtime.
So in the beginning of the 70s, he sort of discarded the notion,

(11:30):
said that it was over, and then in the 80s went back to it again
and said, OK, this is really something that is valid in terms
of a prism that you can use to look at the art that is made
being made today. The term is very poorly.
Poorly. No pun intended.
Yes. Chosen because it doesn't really

(11:51):
communicate or convey very well the idea.
Because it wasn't poor art. I mean, there was a lot of
Carrara marble. There was a lot of industrial
neon materials. The only thing that probably
they had, it was not that we considered high end materials.
It's marble and quahara, but quahara, it's in Italy.
So for them was probably something just, you know.
Maybe cheap? Rock from the exactly?

(12:13):
Local resource. Local resource.
So that's that's one thing in arty povery there was this
promised modernization that theywere against.
So they were working on this idea of anti production.
But like you said, it's dubious because some of the materials
came from industry as well. It almost seems like the name

(12:34):
was like the impressionists named to destroy them and then
adopted. But here was more.
The name was given by the. A person.
Praising them actually, you know, seeing these things
appearing. So do you want to know how
challans? Do you know find OK?

(12:54):
Oh, so you were keeping it to the end?
Yes, of course. OK, so artworks that are taking
away, so quote, taking away eliminating down, grading things
to a minimum, impoverishing signs to reduce them to their
archetypes. End of quote.
So the idea of archetype, I think is really important here.

(13:19):
And I think he's being a bit provocative with this idea of
impoverishing science, because bringing to the archetype is
really the definition of classicphilosophy, which is the
principle. I think with the notion of the
archetype. There is something in there for
Pennone as well. I think.
So a weird thing about Pennone is that he was in Torino,

(13:40):
discovers these artists that he was so excited by that he
discarded his studies and reallyfocused on finding out what
current artists were doing. And so you would think that he
would stay in Torino, but he dropped out a year into his
studies and went back, which wasthe foundational archetypical,

(14:03):
let's say, relation to art making for him.
He has these four years or even 2 to three years that are
incredibly prolific. So I propose to go over these
five works that for me relates to the topic of the environment.
So the mountain, the forest, which again takes me to that

(14:23):
idea of romanticism. Then there is the other element
which is incredibly important, the tree.
There are other elements in his environment other than the tree.
There's the river, there is the stone, there's the leaves,
there's the soil as well in someways.
But I think the tree really is and, and it is in actuality the

(14:48):
title of one of these lines of research that he continues to
pursue currently. It is really this main topic for
him. And then there is the body as a
means of enhanced or shifted kinds of perception, which also
leads me to this more ecologicalsense of needing to understand

(15:09):
how the environment grows aroundus, how it's in constant flow,
what our body can do to dissipate the indifference
that's somehow this immediacy ofthe senses instills in US.
Once you told me that one of your favorite pieces of Pannoni
was that idea of the body into the clay.
I remember going to the permanent exhibition of the

(15:32):
collection at the Santo Pompidouand just having this moment with
a work that was a sort. It was clay and it was human
sized and in the shape of, let'ssay a drop.
So it narrows at the the tip at the at the level of the head.

(15:52):
So from afar, it seems like someone put their hands in the
clay in the bigger, wider body and took apart the clay, opened
it. And so the edges of that side,
so the other side is round, but this side, the edges, you could
see the hands grabbing the clay and, and, and so it stayed.
Of course it's rigid. And then inside that space that

(16:15):
was created, there's an imprint of a body that finishes at the
top with the mouth. So he put his mouth on the edge,
the tip of that drop of clay andbit into it.
And the sculpture, when I read the title as being Breath
transformed completely the relation to the material, which

(16:40):
I saw as something that containswater, contains drops, bubbles
of oxygen, contails, carbon dioxide, contains minerals and
is in constant flow. And in some ways, it was so
funny that by rigidifying the breath, it's alerted me to the

(17:00):
flow, to that vividness of the material.
So that was, yeah. So he goes back and he, the
first thing he does is that he goes into the environment,
outdoors, nature, and he takes pictures of himself or has
someone taking pictures of several actions that he does

(17:20):
outside. So he gathers all this series
into under the name of Maritime Alps.
So what he does is, for example,you see a photo of him embracing
a tree trunk, arms and legs around it, lift it from the
ground, and then another photo next to it of the same tree

(17:40):
trunk from the same angle with something marking the placement
of his body. And I think it looks like metal
wires, but I can't be sure. There's also a gridded cage that
he takes into nature next to water and it also has a bell
pepper and a cauliflower sort ofrigidified by cement on top of
it. And that'll then it's placed

(18:02):
onto a tree that will sort of lift it as it grows.
That's a fantastic work. There's this part of them that
is titled Maritime Alps. It will continue to grow except
at that point. And the one that I'm going to
mention now is the crucial one that is very much relating or

(18:23):
highlighting this notion of intercepting growth and
interacting with it. So this is a diptych of
photographs. One is Pinone grabbing a tree
trunk. So you see his hand and half of
his forearm. And then next to it you see a

(18:44):
bronze casts, so bronze sculpture of his hand.
So the same thing hands half of the forearm indented into the
tree trunk and immobilized in it, so incorporated in the tree
that is going to grow around it.Very emblematic piece.

(19:09):
Do you know the date? This is between 67 and 69.
The next work that I'm going to talk about is very simply called
Alberi. So it's trees.
It means trees in Italian. Pannoni also said the sculptor
must allow themselves to descendto the ground, lowering their

(19:30):
body slowly without haste. The hands, The bronze sculpture
that we call sculpture fixed to the tree.
What is the sculpture? What finishes the sculpture if
not the growing of the tree around the hand as well, making

(19:53):
us think that the hand is pressing?
The hand did not press. The hand is made on the soft,
you know, holding something else, but then it's attached and
then the beautiful of the image.After a few years, it's like you
were saying, it's the tree that it's actually sculpting.
And Pannoni knows that, of course, not knowing the exact

(20:14):
outcome. Of you know what it would be is
letting the tree sculpt. So I want to move on to another
work which was also produced in 1970, which was prove chaire E
Proprioki. So reversing ones eyes, artists
of this generation who are not performers particularly did

(20:36):
perform at some point. And I think these performative
gestures in artists who are not performers are even more
interesting to look at because they really wanted to bring
something home. It's the work that brought me
close to Panone. It was a photograph of Panone's
face wearing mirrored contact lenses.

(20:58):
Later on I knew I found out thatit was from a performance that
he did. Wearing the mirrored lenses.
Mirrored lenses, yes. That basically subverts what
would be the use of contact lenses because it blinds the
artists and reverts to the spectator what the person
wearing the lenses would have been looking at.

(21:20):
And there's even, I think in that, that single image, you can
see the photographer on his eyes, which is really uncanny.
I saw it as also reverting not only the eyes or what he was
seeing because he's no longer seeing, he's looking inside.
But it's a good way to hide to what's the best way to hide even
nowadays, right, with AI and allthe security measures with, you

(21:44):
know, reading your eye and beingable to identify you through
your eye. I don't know where you're going,
but I'm interested. OK, so.
So no, he was, he was hiding hishimself behind those lenses
somehow. Not, not so much.
It's not so much a portrait of his beautiful face, posture and

(22:05):
presence, I would say, but it's it's about is is behind it.
It's a it's a way to work from the inside.
And I think that's what actuallytouched me when I was a young
artist producing, was this idea of almost with no action or

(22:25):
doing almost nothing, hiding behind your own work, showing
what it should be showing or what you actually look and see.
Because those mirrored lenses reflect the nature or what he
was supposed to look at. And so it bring, it brings
himself inside. I know.

(22:45):
And you told me that you taught me that he could see a little
bit through. There were little holes in the
lenses, so he wasn't completely blinded by wearing by wearing.
Yeah, a while ago. And it's about this membrane
that separates us from the outside world and the membrane
of our skin, right? That's, it's he, he, he says

(23:09):
that it's also where we recognize ourselves.
It's, it's, it's that membrane, it's without from that to
inside. That's where we recognize
ourselves in this, in this world, what we are as person.
So it's about this connectivity,knowing that there is a
separation, but also a recognition of also where, where

(23:32):
we are, right? Yes, he wore the lenses in
Spironet's gallery during HamishFulton's exhibition.
Then he did so again on October 6th of 1970 along the banks of
the river Poe Poe Poe in February 23.

(23:55):
In 1971 he performed in Piazza di Spana in Rome, so meaning
that he wore the lenses in the company of Gilberto, Zorio and
Site Wombley and a few days later in on the 28th of February
he wore them on the train from Cheva to Savannah.

(24:18):
And then he wore the lenses again on the 23rd of March at
the Gallery Pole Men's in Cologne, and again in May 26th
at the Kunsfahain in Munich at the opening of a group show in
which he participated, which wasan Arti Povera show.
So this really was performative.And there's also an emphasis for

(24:42):
him on the skin and the skin as as Bach for us, like the skin of
the tree. And this, our skin is not that
different. It's an interface between the
body and, like you were saying, the outside world.
And I think he becomes, he becomes the sculpture.
I don't know if it's a moment ofrealization for him or just for

(25:04):
myself, but he's he becomes the sculpture.
I wanted to bring up a work thatwill make sense in the show as
well. Again from the 1970s, which is
vulgere or vulgere la propia Pele.
So to unroll one's skin. It is a sequence of photographs
in the beginning, and then it's going to become something else.

(25:26):
So he uses ink and transparent film of some kind.
Imagine if you had Scotch tape and then like, but wider.
And that you would, you know, put that Scotch tape on your
cheek, cheek or on your nose. But your cheek would be dirty
with probably powder or graphite.
Or ink, ink of some kind and it leaves the imprint.

(25:50):
So the ink, thank you, serves tomark that impression again,
that's this is one of the thingsthat is so important in his
work, which is the imprint. But asperities almost like the
tree like you were saying Exactly.
You can't actually see it. But with that imprint system,
you see how? The pores and.

(26:11):
Pores the breathing, Absolutely yes.
And so, he says, quotes the skin, like the eye is a boundary
element, the endpoint capable ofdividing and separating us from
what surrounds us, the final points capable of physically

(26:31):
enveloping enormous expenses. It is the point that allows me
still and after all, to recognize myself.
Exactly. End of quote.
We are in the romantic subjects of that unity, that singularity
as humanism and education, whichis that you will through that

(26:55):
experience have a relation with nature.
That if I were to criticize it, I find because of this constant
lookout of the archetype, sometimes I find too generic.
If you go to a big town, to Tokyo, or if you go to the

(27:15):
forest or mentioning the ocean where we were, you know, both of
us raised, where do you recognize yourself as well?
Where do you connect or you, where do you feel amazed or
where it identifies you as well as a person?
It distances you, it connects you.
I think he was talking about thewhat we see, what separates us
from what's the outside, what's the inside and what's the

(27:39):
recognition, which I think it's always important.
Yes, yeah, I. Think.
In the phenomenological kind of.Phenomenological way exactly, I
agree more visceral even if you are put in in in, you know, in
North Pole, where which I had never been unfortunately, but
what would what? Listen, we can take care of
that. We can send you to the North
Pole. There's a fusion and there's an

(28:00):
identification of yourself. There's all there's still that
that layer, the skin, the eye. There's a layer where you be
begin and where you are others as well alterity and you become
also the tree if you if you want, but it's you're not the

(28:20):
tree. So this is going to be an
incredibly a wealth of resourcesfor other works.
So what he's going to do with these imprints is that he's
going to magnify them and then project them, project them onto
a wall and do wall drawings. He's going to do something

(28:43):
similar with leaves and he's going to superimpose them and
sometimes retrace the veins of the of the leaves and produce a
number of drawings from those super impositions between the
vegetable skin and the human dermis.
And the principle is the fact that all these things are in

(29:03):
motion, their fluids. And I think air in that sense is
very important to him because there's this exchange of trees
absorbing carbon dioxide and producing oxygen, us absorbing
the oxygen and producing carbon dioxide.
And this notion of this constantflow and cycle is one of the

(29:28):
most important things. And his experience in the river,
just to finish with the river, there's a quote of his in 89
saying, according to Socrates, in our soul is a block of wax,
which is a memory, a gift of themuses.
So there's other materials he's going to work with, with
plaster, wax, gloss, crystal, but with this idea of the

(29:52):
malleability of the material andthis connection to memory.
So this connection of remembrance.
And it, what's interesting with Socrates is this idea that you
don't learn anything you remember.
It's impossible to teach humans.So the meiotic, which is

(30:12):
literally means to give birth. And Socrates's mom was a
midwife. Socrates's theory was that the
role of the philosopher was to help others remember, so give
birth to their own remembrance or their own ideas that they
already had within them. Your body containing knowledge

(30:36):
already. All knowledge is already
contained within your body. And I think it's not a
coincidence. Yeah, but an important element
of that sentence is that he saysa gift of the Muses.
And I think he's talking about not your real time memory, but

(30:57):
philosophical knowledge. Again, we're in the archetype.
So the muses, of course he wouldbe trees would be the river
would be organic. Organic.
No, the the organic. I like the plane.
No, no. I can only do this with you

(31:18):
because it's amazing, no? No, but I agree.
I totally agree. Yes, I understand.
Do you know what I mean? Elsewhere, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's the that's what he means.
And if I may be a bit pedantic, I would also say that Sigmund
Freud also uses wax as a metaphor for memory, but for the

(31:39):
subconscious. But he uses wax in that game.
Remember there was a toy that wehad when we were kids.
You would draw with the stylus, then you would scrape it, yes,
by dragging something that was part of that, the toy part of
the rectangular structure, And then you would delete the

(31:59):
drawing. That that that brings us back to
your past episodes of Gerard Drieshta.
I'm not getting the joke. With the dragging.
Yes, true. Wow, that was really phenomenal.
OK, you're, you're, you're cooking with gas where I'm

(32:20):
really trying to explain this toy.
That is not easy. And so going back to Freud, he
said that the wax was a subconscious because when you
even out the outer layer of wax,the drawing would still be in
the wax. And so your memory is a
suppressed memory or a repressedmemory or an unconscious memory,

(32:43):
but it will be there. And your memory is kind of like
a recording device that will never erase but will layer.
And it's kind of like a layer upon layer upon layer upon layer
of this wax material that kind of is malleable and therefore
absorbs everything. And everything you will have
gone through is there in your subconscious in that waxy, waxy

(33:07):
material. Brings us back to the excavation
of the trees by Panone. I am drawing a paradox here,
which is or a contrast here, which is that when Panone speaks
of wax, he's talking about a sort of a knowledge memory, So
memosine given by the Muses, so a Greek reference to Socratic

(33:30):
notions of knowledge, meaning that knowledge is already within
you, you don't gain knowledge, you remember it, right?
And with Freud, it's new information and it's something
that happens to you. So with the nitty gritty, it's
the little events, it's the psychological effects and

(33:50):
percepts and affections that youhave in you that make your
personal story. And Pannoni doesn't seem
concerned by that. He's in an archetypal relation
to memory. I see.
Yes, Panone seems like a very centered person.

(34:11):
Why'd you say that? He doesn't need psychoanalysis,
lads. So what I will propose is that
we go for a break and convene later when you will take us into
the exhibition. See you in a bit.
See you soon. If you're here, you're probably

(34:36):
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(34:57):
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(35:19):
Now something a bit different. I'd also love to start a
conversation with you. You can now leave comments on
Spotify, which is a great way toknow what you want more of, or
if you'd like to add something to the topic developed, the
artist discussed, or simply if you want to leave a note of
appreciation. It's a sad world when only the
trolls and the bullies interact with journalists and art

(35:41):
critics. Let's feed the AI beast with
good stuff. Why not bring positivity ideas
and especially your own perspective to the Digital Art
Village? OK, so we're back and we're
going to go into the exhibition,but this time we are not going

(36:06):
to push the doors of the Serpentine right away.
The exhibition starts in the park so the title of the
exhibition is Thoughts in the Roots.
It is on until the 7th of September so there's lots of
time to visit if you're in London and the exhibition was Co
curated by Claude Agile, Hans Ulrich Obrist and Alexa Chow was

(36:32):
the assistant's curator. What attracts you from afar is
this huge tree. The inside is gold and then
there is a little hill to go to it.
So it's quite dramatic. And then from a distance further
away, you can perceive that there are more works from Panone

(36:54):
and and then you approach these three, you see the title
Thunderstruck 3. It's a, it's a work from 2012.
And for once I touched it, I hadto for some reason.
It was outside. There were no barriers.
It's it was quite inviting and the material was quite rough.

(37:16):
There was this tactility to the material because it was so
rough, but at the same time so similar to.
Wait, wait, wait. The tree.
I'm sorry, but I I'm discombobulated.
You think they're trees. You don't.
You touch them because you thinkthey're trees, right?
Was it not your? I mean, that was my experience.

(37:38):
I knew it wasn't. It couldn't be a tree.
How did you know? I don't know it was the.
Maybe by knowing it from before or approaching it, my instincts
were telling me that it's it's not a tree and I think it was

(37:59):
the golden leaf on top of it that it felt to me strange to be
on a tree outside. Something happened also because
we going through the park with my son, we were talking about
Albert. Excuse me?
More our son. Well, Jesus, why am I

(38:22):
dispossessed of my children suddenly?
I didn't want to bring your child to the podcast.
Yeah, exactly. It's.
Just your child without asking you but mine I can, you know I.
Can, yeah, you can reference, yeah.
So we were talking, we were talking about Alberts Memorial
and then our son asked if it wasreal gold Alberts sculpture.

(38:43):
It's also bronze, gilded bronze and then covered with gold leaf.
I was taken aback by the fact that it's not a real tree and
it's bronze and I was a bit weirded out by that.
And then so there's a second sculpture, which is a bronze
tree that looks intact. So it's just the the the wood,

(39:05):
Let's say if the tree, it's a leafless tree and on the
branches it has it doesn't you have big, big stones placed on
the branches. But by the way, the work is
called Ideas of Stone. Oh, it's called Ideas of Stone.
And then around that tree installation, there's stones in

(39:27):
a circle around that. I found the arrangements of
stones strange. I I wasn't in it.
I had a different experience also because it was quite
dramatic somehow. 2 trees also very strange.
Both of them, right, with a golden leaf on one of them hit

(39:48):
by a lightning. And then you look at the other
sculpture from afar. There's a family or adults and
children just playing around andjumping from stone to stone.
That's part of the installation,so it was accessible.
But you find huge, heavy stones on top of those theme branches.

(40:09):
But for that to happen, I sense the floods I've sensed for those
rocks to be there, A flood bigger than those 10m high
trees. Would have had to happen for
these rocks to be in there because and also I think for
him, stones are polished by the flow of the river.

(40:30):
So there was the presence of theriver.
But for me it was more than a river.
It was a strong river. Floods that flooded the the the
the the the entire tree and brought this rocks to the top.
And then he went away. And then you see these children
playing after the storm, curiousnow to see what you felt about

(40:52):
the inside. When you get in, immediately you
see our key QC with eyes closed from work from 2009.
And suddenly I had to turn my myback to it to to see what was in
this in this wall. So the two walls as you enter,
so the two walls, so to the leftand to the right, they have

(41:15):
words stamped on them. The stamp is not a negative,
it's a positive. And when you stamp, it stamps
the negative version. This is the positive.
Yes, there's two. You realize that there's two
works, but only at the end. 8046journey in El Cielo 88,046 days
in the sky and then you have another one.

(41:37):
Called on the other wall. On the other wall 28 1490
written in digits and Journey Nelsiello and the title in
English is 28,490 days in the sky and this one was from 2025 S

(41:58):
1 from 1969 and the other one from 2008.
But then then I've realized thatthose days, the 8046 days are
were the days that Penoni was under the the sky alive.
So he was 20, he was 22 years old.

(42:20):
So he wrote all the days that hewas.
And then he created in 2025, another work.
These stamps stopped me and I had to look back and suddenly
you were in immediately into kind of a time time zone or two
time zones and you are three time zones because you were

(42:40):
suddenly on your time zone as well.
And those doors felt almost likean idea.
There was kind of an A portal. And it's interesting because you
get into the exhibition, but then you look back.
So then after this experience, Imoved to with eyes closed.
You could see even better from afar that it's been on his eyes,
represented with what you think it's paint or drawing little

(43:03):
dots. So but then you approach and you
see that those little dots or what's marking the drawing,
what's making the drawing, are very spiky Acacia thorns.
And then in the center you have polished white Carrara marble,
also sculpted. I think it was replicating or
going through think the skin or.Skin of the tree or your own

(43:27):
skin? I think it's kind of.
Even the kind of the skin, or the veins, or the marble,
marble, marble veins. I think when you read the title,
you kind of go, oh, wait a minute, these were eyes.
You're not quite sure. So he's not kind of like
bringing it on with a force. It's like the same thing with
the number of the days under thesky.

(43:48):
It's not narcissistic. Almost inviting you to close
your eyes. It's not about what you see.
And then you move to to the right.
You have this work called Persone Y Ani, so people and
ears from 2020 and then it's interesting that it's from 2020

(44:10):
as well also. When Chelan Chelan died.
Oh yes, absolutely. And the pandemic began.
It's a footage piece, so it's a 14 meter, 15 meter long piece
work and it's a footage, so it'sall about.
Rubbing. Touching.
Rubbing. 2020 was, if anything, nothing about touching.

(44:34):
Oh yeah, true. It's it goes around the, IT
envelops the corner it. Envelops the corner.
And then continues on to anotherwall.
Makes a turn. And it's kind of almost like a
shroud. There's a shroud aspect to it,
like a Mortuary linen in some ways, because it's kind of
wrapping the wall. You don't feel like it's hanging

(44:55):
on the wall for you to look at. It's embracing what's covering
the wall. There's something very strange.
And there's also another aspect of it, which is that it has.
So it's the first incidence of ascent.
There's an odor, there's an odorto the piece.
It's very, very intense. It's still, I wouldn't say very,

(45:16):
very intense to keep the very, very intense for later.
So I. Would say OK, intense.
Or very intense. Yes, so the linen has at the
centre these green lines that are the rubbing of vegetable
colour and leaf cottage. Yes.
On a tree trunk, absolutely. So the length of the linen is

(45:40):
the length of the tree, and the tree's at the center, but it's
horizontal, so it's horizontal. It goes across.
So it's a lifeline, almost like a timeline, almost.
But you go from left to right. So it's not a readable timeline,
It's reversed. Yeah, you see that?
You see the piece from the rightto left.
From right to left and you read from left to right.

(46:02):
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Yes, it's a timeline and I'm
talking about text and timeline because it has text.
So absolutely around the rubbing.
Of the tree rings like the tree rings there is.
Exactly, there's text. A line, a line, and then another
line. So he says, line by line, the
volume of words wraps around thetree, adding to the description

(46:27):
of its form, thoughts and evocations of images,
associating the meaning of wordswith the memories that each
reader identifies for them to the word silence, never present
in nature, memory amplifies the sounds of the body, the the
breath that inhales oxygen, the heart that pulses and

(46:51):
distributes blood throughout thebody.
So this is more about his experience in nature, being next
to a tree, almost imagining the idea of a spectator or being a
spectator. But he also describes, I think,
something more theoretical abouthis conception of art.
And maybe if you I'm sending it to you, you can read it.

(47:16):
Maybe you could read this part. OK, it is one of the functions
of art to help us understand andamend the changes that the
social body has imposed on the surrounding reality.
Bringing thoughts back to the needs of the individual, to

(47:36):
their existence. To the sense of wonder they feel
when confronted with a timeless and immutable astonishment that
nature inspires. To the marvel of thought and its
capacity to continuously evoke new images, emotions,
discoveries, intentions, revealing and making present

(47:57):
unexpected realities hidden between the infinitesimal
dimension of the atom and the inconceivable vastness of space.
Without forgetting the enduring emotions that a drop of water, a
river, a grain of sand, a mountain, a spark, the sun or

(48:17):
the moon caught between the branches of a tree can evoke the
capacity for emotion that the line of a drawing can arouse
through the mysterious mechanismthat provokes in US.
Astonishment evoking memory is part of the inexhaustible wonder
that make the inexhaustible wonder that makes a material as

(48:40):
precious as coal or dust placed on the sheets reproduce the
light and shadows and reveal thethoughts and gaze of another who
has been able to annotate by describing with spots, with
Marks, and by fixing emotions that remain in time and are
revived every time 1's gaze enters the author's thoughts,

(49:02):
making him present. So.
This is quite the text that has no ends.
You enter a sentence and you just feel like you're in the
river, taken by the the current and you cannot stop.
And you're just taken to such differences of light and emotion

(49:23):
and ideas and you cannot stop and you cannot hold on to them.
But somehow they're making senseto you.
And it's about you and that fluxof things.
And then you stop and you, you don't exactly know what happened
to you. Yeah.
Exactly like the rings of the tree.
That doesn't stop. It keeps on going and going and

(49:43):
going and going. Yeah, maybe It's quite intense.
Only us humans have the that sense of OK, let's stop, let's
have a seat, let's grab a coffee, let's.
But it doesn't stop. Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, that is true, Yeah. Yeah, then think of that moving
on. When you we, you discover this
work. It's so long that you bump into

(50:03):
another work. Also indistinct Confini Renus.
So indistinct boundaries Renus. So it's from 2012.
I've gathered that Renus was something connected to the to
the river. So who lived by the river?
The one who lived by the river or also it's it's all Germanic
and also a Celtic would be the flow connected to the idea of

(50:27):
flow as well? It's a sort of a pillar.
It's a sort of a pillar tree sculpted in marble.
And then it's covered in blue. There's a side of it that has
the blue pigment or paint or whatever.
It looks quite almost Pagan, like a Pagan ritual.
And then you look to your left because you there's this smell

(50:49):
starting to be so strong that you have to kind of address it.
And then you walk to to the nextroom and there is this nature
smell. There is a smell of the idea of
we have of green, nature green. Yes, yes, of grass.
And grass of Moss. You know where the smell comes.
From I didn't, I kind of did. I didn't because at your right

(51:12):
hand you have just tea, vegetali.
So when you have on the wall to the left a very, very big sort
of fabric, so linen with a green, so monochromatic drawing
of branches and trees and like grass imprints.
And then in front of you on the on the wall, on the back, you
have again something that is a bit more figural.

(51:35):
So you have 3 trunks. It looks like a forest, but
again with the same green hues. Yes.
And then in the center. Darker I would.
Say much darker, it has a bit ofbrown.
And then in the center you have the fabulastic insulation with
these big clay pots, huge with atree that seems to be planted on

(52:00):
several of them. Some of them don't have
anything, they just have soil. And then there's this bronze
sculpture that seems to be just Bach.
So Bach is kind of coming together to form a human figure.
And it's, it's actually strange work.
Also, I've, I, it's the idea of sculpture that I imagine on the

(52:23):
on, on the roundabouts, on the roundabouts.
And there is also this idea of dystopian, futuristic,
dystopian. It made me think of Miyazaki,
all the animation that we've watched recently.
Absolutely. With these beings coming to life
that are weirdly anthropomorphicbut made of nature or natural

(52:44):
elements. Yes, exactly right.
Yes, absolutely. I've heard that this, this is
growing. It's still growing.
It's going to grow till the end of the exhibition.
I think the problem is that it doesn't fit into Penones
aesthetic, but he's been doing these sculptures since the 80s
so. Yes.
It's not a recent. Indoors, outdoor sculptures,

(53:07):
absolutely. Installations, absolutely.
At the same time installation they feel different.
OK. So the Serpentine is built in a
way where there's a central areathat is big and it's usually
kind of the the, the hitting point of the exhibition, let's
say. What did you feel?

(53:28):
So the smell continues but changes, right?
Yes, the. Walls are still very odorous,
yeah. Right.
The walls are covered with Laurel leaves.
Yes, Laurel leaves. Laurel leaves.
It's a very strange building that has, I think one or two
windows almost below the ceilingand the leaves go up to mid

(53:51):
window, which makes you, it's the first time I was in that
room and was made to look upwardand it looks like a church.
It literally looks like and it has this central window.
And you're also kind of grabbed by that scent of the Laurel.
Leaves, absolutely. There are in boxes.

(54:13):
I mean not in. Boxes, but in the leaves are yes
in a. Net, sort of a gridded net.
Yeah, it's sort of net in littleelements.
So in Unity, so in in boxes thatthen have this grid that holds
them. So they're not.
So the walls are not paved with leaves.
They are. You hang these boxes on the wall

(54:34):
that creates as if it was a mosaic that covered, but it's
not a mosaic. It's just the structure and the
pattern that is mosaic like. Absolutely.
Yes, and contains leaves. This work is called Respiratory
Lombra, to breathe the shadow. But it has another element.

(54:55):
So then there is this element also on the center wall on
opposite to another work that wewill talk about.
But yes, when you turn left, yousee this terracotta, this clay
sculpture mold a molded face with a mouth open where as if we
were inside a body. So the bronze that goes through

(55:19):
the mouth looks like a branch and then when it goes inside, it
divides into two branches with leaves.
And I think that that I believe and it is what it is.
I think it represents the lungs,right?
Breathing, yes, because also it goes to the mouth and divides
into two when it's inside the face.

(55:40):
We don't see the nose unless we get really close.
Because the face is turning towards the wall.
Towards the wall. So you see an empty skull, like
a mask? Yes.
And then the branch that goes through the mouth, but you see
it from behind, so you don't seethe face.
So you're making me think that actually, it's as if when you're

(56:01):
in the space you were in the internal parts of your body.
It's like it's the body and the leaves are the air because it's
the scent. So you you sense the scent
through the nose. So if it's carried by the air,
then you have that face and you have the lungs and it's as if
you were inside your body. And then in the back you have

(56:25):
the other work, which is also the inside of the tree.
So there's something about beingin an internal side of an
Organism that is receiving air. It's receiving scent.
It's exchanging the carbon dioxides.
Absolutely. For oxygen or vice versa.
And so there's this. It's a very strong.

(56:48):
Room. It has been shown several times
in different occasions. Sometimes it has more than one
sculpture. Facing that sculpture, this is a
whole installation, and then there's the wall on the other
side that has another sculpture.Yes, it's the book Book Trees
and it's from 2017. It's those sculptures that we

(57:12):
know from Pannoni where he gets the knots and goes inside and
discovers that the the younger tree and it's very long.
So it's one tree next to the other.
So it's probably 3 to 4 meters high.
Trees are carved like open books.
There is an angle. Yes.

(57:32):
On the side right like you had an open book in your.
Hand, that's true, I have noticed.
That yes, I really felt that. And you could see also it's it
was nice because you could, it could reveal the knot.
You could see the knots on the side and where the way he went
in to get the branches and to the younger tree inside and next

(57:53):
to each other. It's 12.
So it's quite big installation. You could see also that it's not
like cutting the tree with a robotic machine.
Or it's really. An industrial.
An industrial mechanical computer and you could you could
actually see that it's sometimes.
The carving. The carving is it has its own,

(58:15):
it thickens or it thinners, thins the, the branches, but
it's almost like a drawing again, it's, it shows a
direction. It shows the direction of the
growth also. And I this idea of open book as
well, because these trees and the branches, the way they, they
go to the left, to the right, upand down.
It's to balance the tree as well.
It's to respond to the elements,to the the storms around it,

(58:40):
balance winds and gravity. Probably diseases.
They're standing on, I mean, they're held by a big beam that
is untreated. I mean, that is not sculpted.
So that potentially could contain one of them trees.
And there's three types. Three.
I like that he kept that beam that looks quite rough.

(59:04):
It's not a beautiful thing to look at.
And I like that because you say,oh, it's carved manually, but
the beams are cut industrially. He's not like saving the tree
because he kept the other beam underneath.
And he's accepting the industrial condition as well.

(59:25):
He's not like, let's go back to the trees or he takes planes.
He has an iPhone. So he's a modern person.
He's not retired from, you know,civilization as it were.
I mean, industrialization and technology.
He's talking about the book. So again, there's always this
notion of knowledge and idea andphilosophy, but there's also

(59:48):
this thing of acceptance I find.And also I, I felt the survival
of time and this protection and those trees leave many, many
years and they were outside many, many years.
And with books it's the same. There is this idea of.
Survival of time. So then you from this huge like

(01:00:11):
installation, you go to another room where light comes, natural
light comes again. You can see the park and the
reflection on the floor from theoutside.
And you discover this work again, the pot and the tree.
But there is a a portrait of Penone printed on porcelain.
It's ceramic, yeah. Ceramic on ceramic and then

(01:00:34):
again the eyes are pierced by branches.
I quite like this work. I don't know what he felt about
it or if it was something that you retain this strong work.
I loved it. OK.
I loved it. I really love that work.
I think it's one of my favourites because the ceramic

(01:00:55):
is so unexpected. You think it's a photograph and
I thought what a great idea to have a photograph such a simple
and also kind of making me thinkto, you know, of his beginnings.
Obviously it's a reference to the eyes reversed piece with the
the mirror lenses. But then you see it's ceramic

(01:01:16):
and you think because he has a few sculptures that are vases
that I didn't talk about, he hasthought about the container, the
idea of the container and but it's very subtle.
It's a very simple kind of work and suddenly you have a face.
I think it's a work that is the most mysterious one.
It's the most timeless to me. A few of these works feel a bit

(01:01:39):
dated to me, whereas this one, Ithink it could have been made in
the 50s, it could be made in thefuture.
I think it's a very audacious work.
I think I like it also because it's the only one where I is the
only work where I where I see a bit of darkness and the bits of

(01:02:00):
tragedy or something other than just an archetypal relation with
the material that is not specific.
Because in the room that I so loved, I was also thinking, does
he use the Laurel trees, the Laurel leaves because of their
healing properties, their anti-inflammatory?

(01:02:21):
Is it something that he's interested in?
I was kind of trying to see if he was going to be more specific
because Laurel leaves are also the leaves that the you used to
crown the poets, right? Nowadays, you would think I, I'm
looking into something that I have this wealth of knowledge

(01:02:42):
that his Mama is no one. I probably had, you know, the,
about these, these specimens. And again, I feel that some of
his work doesn't resonate with my needs.
Now when you're talking about the biosphere at the moment, I
feel I need something different.I need something more and that's

(01:03:05):
maybe how I would perhaps end the discussion about the
exhibition is I loved going. I would probably go again.
I will most likely, but because I need to be in touch with that
sensitivity and that full engagement that he has.

(01:03:28):
But there's limitations to even comparing with Mary Miss or
Patricia Johnson. I mean, other artists who were
working, who were ecological artists and who were working
with the awareness of the impactwe have as humans.
And I feel like he creates a sort of a bubble.
Well, you can forget about the impact that humans have on our

(01:03:53):
own future. And I think that's where you can
reconnect with him. He's saying like, these guys are
going to stay. You know, these trees, these,
you may destroy a few specimens,but they're going to stay after
you're gone. So that's why I'm, I, I love the
exhibition. I love his work.
It's just that at a certain timewhen I see gridded sleeves, I'm

(01:04:14):
like, there's a part of me was like, symbolically they're a bit
trapped. And I'm not sure that's what
he's trying to do. He's just trying to create a way
of making a wall of leaves. But then you get to that piece
and you get a form of darkness. Something about this body is

(01:04:35):
going to be eaten up a freshness.
A freshness as well, but a darkness.
Understand. Yes.
Yeah, yeah. But then in the same room you
have pression pressione. Pressure.
Pressure. Pressure.
Yes. And then the one.
What's the name? What's the title?
Sophie the Fogly. I don't know if I'm saying it
right. Breath of Leaves.

(01:04:57):
It's fantastic. It's fantastic.
Yeah, it's amazing. I knew you were going to, of
course. I love it, like it, and it's a
strong work. I thought in the beginning that
I would always imagine that he would jump and fall and those
leaves. So you see leaves on the floor
with a very, very organic shape or just left there on when you

(01:05:20):
are cleaning your garden. And then you put the leaves
together with the very irregularshape, OK.
And they're organized in a sort of a heap that is flattened by
something. There's a trace of something.
There's a trace of something, yes, definitely.
He lies on the heap of leaves and he's he blows.

(01:05:45):
He breathes in and out, I would say.
Or maybe, yeah, he breathes in, in.
And out with the leaves into theleaves.
Yes. Yes, I always, even knowing the
work, I always imagined since the beginning and even now that
he would jump to the work, he would fall. 77.
I don't know maybe exactly why not.
It could, yeah. It doesn't need to be him.

(01:06:07):
The concept is is great and it'sit's it's there.
It could be an assistant, it could be an invitation for us to
do it as well. I would say that that piece
could now go a bit further as well and maybe be open to to a
more collaborative experience and repeat.
The gesture could be quite nice,but it's of course it's.

(01:06:29):
For me personally, that part, that part of the exhibition was
really nice with the final work,which is pressure.
It's part of the skin work, reversed with tape, but
magnified and put on the wall here by assistance.
Projected. Projected and then with the help
of assistance drawn with charcoal on the wall and I felt

(01:06:51):
that it was augmented image, butalso augmented almost
microscopic touch. So when you draw, you are
actually making a mark, but alsomicro touching that small
contact point of contact with, yes, with his skin somehow.
So it's augmented visually, but it's also augmented in the idea

(01:07:14):
of the touch, the repeated, repeated touch and the making.
And this drawing, I don't know if you notice it's opposite,
opposite to the drawings, the rubbings of the trees.
So when I look at this small drawing augmented on the wall,
it felt like also a landscape. It felt like a forest because
you could see the airs, you could see the.

(01:07:35):
It goes. Also, it's quite a huge
installation and it's pretty much symmetrical positioning to
the. Other room.
And I felt even leaving the exhibition, I felt that it was a
body that they were kind of drawing with every time on the
sides. He had the branches going out,
he had the trees, he had the leaves.

(01:07:55):
But then inside you had the inside of the body, like you
were saying, center. There was a face, if you imagine
where that face was opposite to it on the first, there was the
first work that we saw with the eyes closed.
So you could imagine you could imagine that in front of that
face. There were there was that piece

(01:08:16):
with centered as well. So exactly centered with the
that sculpture with the eyes closed and I and then going out
again, there was the the time, the time that it's relative,
right? It was the time that you were
there that some some artists cando that to you as well to make
it bigger and make it smaller. You don't know, you lose track

(01:08:38):
of time. It could have been a long time
that you stayed in the show, maybe not that long.
So and go going back to your day, to your time.
And the muses that in that quoteof Socrates, the work that we
didn't like that much. At the same time, it kind of
makes sense when you think abouthis references.

(01:08:58):
And it's also very beautiful that it makes us think of a lot
of animation. I mean, from Yazaki to more
obscure. I mean, obscure for us,
obviously not for our kids, but we've watched recently on
Netflix like Scavengers Reign. So in some ways, and I always
say this in the podcast, what you like, what you don't like,
it's there's a, we are limited by our own education and our own

(01:09:22):
tastes. And it's also great to feel when
we converse with someone that you can kind of overcome that
limitation and understand that maybe the resonance of a work
with meaningful experiences might be more important than
you're being a bit shocked by the kitschy aspect of, of a

(01:09:47):
work. And you helped a lot in the way
you were talking about the exhibition as a body and kind of
seeing the correspondences of all the works together.
That was quite great. But yeah, thank you.
I think we've come to the to theend of the road.
I think there was the problems that there was.
There's still so much that I wanted to say.

(01:10:08):
Absolutely same same and developing ideas as well.
I felt that I had to jump to another one quite quickly.
But thank you also for inviting me and for your podcast.
It's making me going to more exhibitions lately.
Thank you for that as well. So this episode was recorded on
the 27th of April 2025. Our research assistant was Sehej

(01:10:32):
Malik and the music is by Satan.Thank you so much for sticking
with us. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Have a good one, until the next time.
Exhibitionist is an indie podcast with its perks and its
productive challenges, but I'm very thankful to be in your

(01:10:55):
eardrums or somewhere in your screens.
Don't forget to support independent content.
Give us a nice rating, subscribeto the newsletter, and if you
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