March 7, 2025 • 62 mins
If Hogarth and Mario Bros had a son, it would be Hardeep Pandhal, the artist whose drawings sprawl on the walls, on paper and on canvas at the Drawing Room until until the 13 April. Half auto-biography, half hybrid character-driven cross-temporal fantasies, one thing is certain, we loved “Inner World”.
If you’re not in London, and you want to know more about the artist, he is represented by Jhaveri Contemporary in Mumbai, who I profusely thank for all the information they sent me.
This time, my two co-hosts, interdisciplinary movement artist Naissa Bjørn and visual artist Constança Saturnino, are YOUNG. So we have an Gen X versus Gen Z episode. And it’s a delight.
We talk also talk about: neurodiversity, the spectator experience, drawing, community, aphantasia, dyslexia, synesthesia, contemporary drawing, exhibitions, art galleries.
Follow Naissa, and Naissa's hairdressing business. Follow Constança, and Constança's tattoo business.
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We also mention Milo's song An Encyclopedia. Listen here. It's great.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Hi there, and thanks so much fortuning in.
So one of the reasons why I started Exhibition Esters is
because as an outwriter, sometimes I feel that I'm in a
very comfortable bubble talking to people who have the same
references that I do. Of course, artists force us to
burst the bubble and look beyondit many, many times, as is the
(00:35):
case of the artists we're talking about today.
But I also believe that the spectator experience, whether
you work in the art field or youdon't, actually brings that
weirdness and that specificity, that uniqueness that makes us
all want to talk to each other and exchange experiences.
That's why I always try to invite Co hosts who compliments
(00:58):
me, I the professional or because they don't work in the
art field. So I have two Co hosts today and
they expand that desire of complementarity, but also of
contrast because they are, yes, they are young, they are Gen.
ZS. So we will have a Gen.
X, Gen. Z battle or should I say episode
(01:21):
this time. And it was the most delightful
experience and I think it will be for you as well.
So another thing I'd like to tell you is that I start the
episode differently this time. So in the vein of this idea of
exploring the spectator experience with its
idiosyncrasies, I talk about with my two Co hosts are
(01:43):
different kinds of brains. So one of us is aphantasic, the
other one has synesthesia, and the other one is dyslexic.
And these three specificities affect the way you behave in the
space and also how you perceive it.
This might become a full blown episode.
So if you have any experiences with these neurological
witnesses, please get in touch. I'm really interested in your
(02:06):
experience and finally, I needs to be sustainable through many
sources and follower support is the first one I can rely on
before reaching out to sponsors trying to apply for grants, for
example. So your role is really important
and your behavior can affect thecommunity that we are.
(02:26):
So the link is there for you. You can donate 2 EUR, 2 lbs more
than that, whatever is comfortable for you.
And if you cannot do it, well, rest assured that people will do
it for you. And when you can, you can do it
for them because they might not be able to at that moment.
That's how we create a community.
(02:48):
That's how we also support intellectual entrepreneurship.
That's how I want to call myselffrom now on.
So without further ado, let's explore this generation gap.
Let's listen to the episode about Hadeep Pandal and his
inner world. Hello and welcome to Exhibition
(03:19):
Listers, the podcast where we visit Exhibition separately and
compare notes during the episode.
Today I am swimming across the generational gap because my two
guest Co hosts are going throughtheir second decades on the
planet, whereas I will be celebrating my fifth one in a
year. So we are going to talk about
(03:41):
and we're going to visit for thefirst time the excellent Drawing
Room and we're going to talk about Hardeep Pandal's
exhibition in a World. But first, I will introduce my
lovely, lovely guest Co hosts for the very first time in the
podcast. Naisa Bjorn, who is an
(04:02):
interdisciplinary movement artist and also does other
things, but he'll tell us all about it.
And Kushnasa Saturnin, who is a returning guest.
You probably remember her from the festivities episode.
She is a visual artist who trained as a dancer and combines
all of those practices. So what do you have going on in
(04:24):
your life? But first and foremost, welcome
and thank you so much for joining me in this podcast.
Welcome, welcome. Currently, I am having a quieter
moment on the freelance scene, but on the side I cut hair as a
hairdresser, not just a fade, isthe business name.
(04:45):
And I'm also slowly working on asolo piece that will hopefully
be premiering next year. And working by yourself is hard,
especially as a dancer in the studio all alone with four white
walls. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting
process and I think I definitely, I'm searching for
(05:06):
some collaborators to have in the space because it's a quiet,
lonely process. And Quasha, what do you have
going on in your life right now?Yes, quite similar to nice.
It's a bit of a quiet time, justfocusing more on being in the
studio and making, which is niceand important.
(05:30):
But I do a tattoo on the side. I just hosted the first little
tattoo event yesterday in the world space, which is an arts
residency space that's also utilized for other events.
Yeah. Amazing.
OK, great. So usually in the podcast I ask
(05:53):
the, I think now very familiar question, what has been going on
culture wise in your lives? But I have a different question
today because two of us here have been diagnosed with ADHD.
I'm one of them and I actually write about it on my sub stack.
I'm interested in the spectator experience and how unique it is
(06:17):
as an experience and singular and at the same time how
congregating it can be through those differences.
And each one of us has a form ofweirdness in terms of perception
of space. And they're very different.
So 1 by 1. So you have dyslexia, which
means that you have a very, I don't think a lot of people know
(06:41):
this, but the perception of space is affected when you have
dyslexia. It is said that you think in 3D
and that's why it kind of lets us pop out and you switch
syllables and all of that. And so how does that affect your
perception of space, but obviously in particular
exhibition spaces and maybe evenyour relationship to art, art
(07:04):
making, artworks? I used to live above Poundlands
when I went to visit the flats. You have to go through this
alleyway and then turn on the left of these stairs where you
then are on this sort of balcony.
Not balcony, but. Terrace.
(07:26):
The Landing. Oh, Terrace.
And so then you have the door and you enter the flat and
that's how you get, you know, above the the Poundland flats
from going behind and then getting up the stairs through
the terrace to get into the flat.
And I was in the flat visiting it.
The tenant is very excited, saying this is lovely space,
(07:48):
love being here. Oh, I look through the window of
the kitchen. You can see the terrace.
We, we have loads of barbecues there in the summer.
It's really nice. And I was looking out the window
and I was thinking, oh wow, I can't wait to go there.
But I just want to get into the flat As soon as I enter a room,
(08:11):
anything that was before that room, I don't remember.
So I'm very present physically where I am all the time, but I
can't remember where where I've been.
It's not that you don't remember, no feel.
It's like you can't reconfigure the space.
Yes. OK, well and what about
(08:32):
exhibitions then exhibition visiting, is that is there
something that you feel can connect, you can connect to?
I think sometimes there's that little anxiety when there's lots
of rooms and the kind of optionsto to take different routes, the
kind of thing of, you know, is there a right way to go about
(08:55):
this? Have I been here before?
But so do you prefer a directional space, A directional
exhibition like where you can't just roam about, you just have
to visit it in that very specific order?
Yeah, I get very I get overwhelmed when when there's
lots of possibility to roam around and you can kind of these
work to go, but it feels very. Do you know what?
(09:19):
Do you remember COVID when museums had these arrows?
On the floor. And you, I loved it.
I loved it. So everyone was complaining
about it. And I was like, this is so
logical. You can just focus on the art.
You don't have to make choices. Why do people need choices?
I mean, I, I loved it at the at the supermarket as well.
(09:40):
Yes, like it made my my trip so much quicker because I'm not
like, oh wait, let me just turn back and go back to that aisle.
It's like. OK.
So moving on to NASA, you have synesthesia.
Tell us what that is and how youthink it might affect your
relationship to exhibition going.
(10:03):
So synesthesia is when when you experience one sense, you
experience another one at the same time.
So for example, a common one is listening to music and seeing
colours or hearing sounds and smelling things or like I think
often another one is also like certain smells, illicit memories
(10:24):
and nostalgia. My I think the one of the
biggest effects of synesthesia Ihave is when I listen to music,
I really feel it in a textural way.
It's like this sound feels like a train zooming away or like
this sound really feels like slime moving.
And I think it really informs mymovement practice and how I
(10:46):
react to sound. And when you first asked me this
question, I was thinking about it in relation to exhibitions.
And I realized when I go and seethings, I will also like
viscerally feel the texture of the work or the piece.
And I think sometimes it makes me be like, I don't like that
because of like how I experienceit.
(11:07):
And then I have to take a secondand be like, wait, let me just
sit with the sensation and really take in the art first.
But yeah, I found I find that like some sculptures or a lot of
mixed media work will really like, I will really viscerally
feel a texture or something in my body.
(11:30):
Yeah, so in my Instagram, what do you call it, Profile
description. I guess I, I kind of announced
myself as the aphantasic curatorbecause everyone asks me as soon
as I explain what aphantasia is,which is not being able to
visualize willingly or even unwillingly.
Most of the time people say, so how can you be a curator?
(11:54):
This is the first question. So I like to put it out there,
you know, as kind of a, yeah, there are different
relationships to spaces and to images.
So does that means that I cannotsee anything?
So if I say banana, you will immediately see a banana, right.
So I don't see anything. And even if I try to see a
(12:15):
banana, nothing comes. So that's it baby, that that's
basically just what aphantasia is.
And apparently it's common in people with neurodivergences in
in general. So I have a.
Theory that that's what what makes you so good with words
because you don't have all theseimages distracting you in your
(12:38):
head so I feel like it allows you to be more precise whereas I
feel like I struggle with my words because I have such vivid
images in my mind that I think there's no way that my words
could ever amount to what I can see I.
I I feel the same, yeah. It's my home.
(12:58):
It's, I feel that it's my because people ask me like, so
how can you remember? Do you have memories?
I have very vivid memories and that's how exhibitions affect me
and how I felt and how I what I thought and what that led me to
and what state I kind of steppedinto when I visit an exhibition.
(13:22):
And I'm far more interested in that than fetishizing the
objects In some ways, this idea of ownership or this idea of
this absolute need for them to be there all the time, which
thankfully leads to collecting and feeds artists.
But I don't have that necessity because for me it's a dynamic
(13:43):
relationship with that thing in in that space.
And then it becomes an A personal adventure or a
collective adventure. To me, it's more an experience.
We do have to move on to the exhibition.
First of all, talk a little bit about the drawing room, which is
a very special space and it's also medium based.
(14:06):
So I think that warrants a bit of an introduction.
OK, so the drawing Room has a really fascinating history
because it was founded by three curators, Mary Doyle, Kate
McFarlane and Katherine Stout in2002.
So Mary Doyle and Kate McFarlaneare still the Co directors of
(14:26):
the space and Katherine Stout I think is a trustee or has
another role within the institution.
But the interesting thing is that and that I didn't know
because I know that drawing roomquite well is that they started
as a curatorial projects that was touring around the UK and
then they found the space and they devised the program, found
(14:48):
funding, etcetera. So the space that you visited,
which is absolutely incredible, they just moved in there I think
in 2023. It's a new space is kind of the
culmination of a very, very big journey, I think into becoming
the institution that it is today.
(15:10):
But I have a question for you actually.
Do you find it strange that you have an institution that is
based on the discipline and particularly the discipline of
drawing? No, I think it's great.
And you? Approve.
I approve. I mean, I, I find it interesting
because I feel like there's so much focus on painting in the
(15:33):
arts and like the National Portrait Gallery, when you think
of portraits, you'd think of a painting as opposed to a
sculpture or an illustration. And, and I also feel like
recently I've been enjoying comics a lot.
And there's a, there's a few artists, one called Rudy 69999,
(15:56):
I think on Instagram. And he makes these like little
doodle comics and posts them on Instagram.
And they are so touching and beautiful.
They really like, they really emote a lot from me.
And it's definitely made me rekindle my love for doodling as
well. And I think it's an art form
that you can spend hours or minutes on.
(16:18):
And I find that really powerful.I I'm I'm a big advocate for
drawing, basically. I didn't know we had you on
board, Naisa. I'm so I'm so glad.
No, absolutely. Well, yeah, it is interesting
because so drawing was not part of the genres of the art, right?
It was architecture, painting. So I'm talking about Renaissance
(16:40):
and you know the the academies in the past.
So painting, architecture and sculpture.
So those were the three major genres and drawing had a very
strange status within that history because it was seen as
the father of the arts. So it's kind of the patriarch as
as it were, as described by Giorgio Vasari in during the
(17:03):
Renaissance. So it there is this weird
history where drawing, when we come to the 60s, so when we come
to the new avant-garde, so kind of these big movements that
again rejected painting or kind of try to redefine the
relationship to those genres. They adopted photography and
(17:24):
drawing as these kind of undisputed disciplines that they
didn't argue against, let's say,or try to redefine.
There's also a lot of people still, even professionals in the
art world or in the art field who consider drawing still like
sort of a project, like a minor discipline or genre or medium or
(17:49):
whatever you want to call it. And it's interesting to see that
you have the photographer's gallery and you have the drawing
room and you have the photographer's gallery as a new
medium because new technology. And then you have drawing, which
probably might be the oldest, like you say, most kind of
visceral and compulsive form of arts, being these kind of very
(18:12):
cutting edge mediums in some ways or these disciplines that
sometimes by some people are notreally considered arts and
therefore having an institution that defends them as such is
really important. But I I'm really passionate
about what Nice was saying. I experienced a a big culture
(18:34):
shock moving to this country from France because in France
cartoons and what are they called?
Comics. Comic.
Yes, comic books are so. Valued are so.
Valued. Yeah, but it's not.
But not just. They're valued for children and
(18:55):
for adults and old ages, really.And then I came here and there
was none. And my peers weren't reading
comic books that would go to thelibrary and they weren't any
comic books. I couldn't believe it.
And animation as well, I feel like it's not very as valued
here as it is in France because it is seen a lot more as a as a
form of arts. And I think it's, yeah, we can
(19:16):
talk about this more later as well, because that's something
that is something that I thoughta lot about with this exhibition
because of the drawing style. And it was really so exciting to
see that type of that type of drawing in an exhibition space.
And also because as someone who taught arts to kids, that was
(19:36):
very strictly told that my kids couldn't be drawing cartoons.
No. Yes, I think that we have such a
closed mindset when it comes to drawing still where it is coming
more into the exhibition space, but we still cast aside a lot of
drawing styles like cartoon and comic books and.
(20:01):
Yeah, yeah. So kudos to the drawing room and
to Hardeep Pandal, actually to bring this kind of iconography
into the exhibition space. And so to introduce Hardeep
Pandal a little bit, first of all, I need to give a big thanks
to Andrew Judd at Javeri Contemporary, which is the
(20:23):
artist gallery in Mumbai that has also an office here in
London. And they gave me the most
comprehensive press portfolio, artist portfolio, published
catalogues in PDF form. And it's so incredible and it
doesn't happen a lot. And thank you also to The
Drawing Room, who also sent me alot of information about the
(20:46):
artists. Hardy Pandal was born in
Birmingham in 1985. He is a second generation
British Sikh and he received hisBA from Leeds Beckett University
in 2007 and his MFA from GlasgowSchool of Art in 2013.
(21:06):
He is also known as and here this is going to be a tough one
because I may be mispronouncing this.
So he's also known as medieval. I want to say I will write it.
It's going to be on the screen to those who are watching the
video or mid level, I don't know.
Anyway, it's his activity as a songwriter slash voice artists,
(21:31):
video artists. So Hardy Pandal has a wealth of
visual languages and voice worksthat that are really, really
incredible and very prolific. So he works predominantly with
drawing. His visual and Sonic world
building develops through associative thinking and each
(21:53):
project is research led and explores what he calls post
Brown weirdness. So he shows his work a lot.
In Scotland in 2020 had an exhibition at the Goldsmith
Center of Contemporary Arts Tramway, Glasgow in 2020, as
well New Art Exchange in Nottingham, a big show in 2020,
(22:15):
In 2019 Watch Chapel Gallery, South London Gallery, New Museum
in New York and many other art spaces.
He was shortlisted for the German Award in 2018 and
selected for Bloomberg New Contemporaries in 2013.
So as he was finishing his MFA. He has had a really beautiful
(22:38):
career, but at the same time he's shown his work a lot
outside of London, so it's really great to see.
Also in the drawing room, an artist who we don't get to see a
lot. He uses drawing as his main
activity of course, but his exhibitions are more these
projects that take over the space and the drawing room is no
(22:58):
exception. So there's objects, there's this
notion of installation, but there's also video.
So you can go on YouTube and watch particularly the video
that is discussed in the catalogue that you can find that
the drawing room as well online and in the space called Riddles
on Backstreet. So it's signed by Medieval and
(23:22):
Vandalorem featuring Mr. Ugly and it's a collaboration by Hadi
Pandal and Adam Sinclair. And I really, really urge you to
watch it. It's beautiful, it's amazing.
So he works with also textiles. He talks about this
collaboration with his mother who was knitting these sweaters
(23:42):
for him at some point. And so he decided to include
those knittings and also reinterpret them.
But he describes this relationship with his mom as a
kind of a constant thread, as itwere, no pun intended, in his
work, because of the language barrier between both of them.
So she doesn't speak English very well and he's learning
(24:07):
Punjabi, but it it is difficult.So they're both kind of trying
to meet halfway, and that's one of the things that drives a
certain aspect of his work. So in 2015, he was a recipient
of the drawing bursary and he described his work as having
(24:27):
been led by short term agendas for institutions.
And I'm quoting him here. And in 2021 he experienced the
shift in the work where he decided to move into this notion
of world building. So storytelling, sick
(24:48):
storytelling, gaming, personal stories.
So this hybrid composite, visualand sound narrative worlds very
much inspired by sword and sorcery.
So for people who don't know such as myself, sword and
sorcery is described as a world where there is no fate of the
(25:11):
world at stake. Particularly it is a more action
sub genre and it's more morally grey.
It's more character driven than really this kind of high fantasy
kind of storytelling that his kind of universe let's say is
(25:31):
called the Pinto verse after a family joke.
So his father, whenever he had to call a taxi or to give his
name, he would say his name was Pinto.
And so Pandal interprets this this as it being a way of
building a character to exist inout there in the world, to face
(25:56):
the world somehow. And for me it was very strange.
And again, we go into this idea of the spectator perspective
because my name is Joanna Pionevis and the P stands for
Pinto because Pinto is a Portuguese name.
And immediately I thought, oh, his family.
(26:16):
So he's South Asian of or of South Asian descent.
So his family might come from Goa because in Goa there was a
Portuguese presence, let's call it that.
And so kind of the inheritance of the colonizer was visiting
the exhibition of someone who talks about the the fact that
(26:37):
colonialism is still here and isstill very much alive, but
manifesting in other ways. I don't know where Pinto comes
from. It probably is a
misinterpretation on my part forsure.
Maybe it's a Punjabi word. So questions for you.
Did you know about sword and sorcery?
Did you think about it when you visited the exhibition?
I mean, I think it definitely made me think of Dungeons and
(26:59):
Dragons and like Co-op board games.
And I actually recently went to a board game Cafe and played a
board game with some friends called Escape the Castle.
And at first we were like whatever.
Like it'll just be a chill like a few pints and a board game.
(27:22):
Oh my God, no way. Every time we every time we
rolled the dice, we were screaming.
The tension, the agony like. It was.
Honestly, we we did not expect to be so taken by the charm of
the board game. But it really it it it really.
Yeah. I feel like I really connected
(27:42):
with that within the exhibition of this idea of like, his group
of friends on a quest and then facing obstacles.
Transcribing a different format onto a real experience allows
people to access it more easily and to, like, everyone knows
about Dragons and Knights because we've heard about them
(28:04):
since we were kids. And I think hearing this, like,
trivialized way of describing itwas really nice, to be honest.
I really enjoyed it. Yeah.
So to talk a little bit about this idea of post Brown
weirdness, which is his own termfor this disentanglement of post
(28:28):
colonial and decolonization thatwe talk a lot about now in
academia, but also in the curating field.
We talk a lot about decolonizingthe museum.
There's a conscious efforts being made into bringing into
the museum these questions. There's this consciousness of
the fact that we have been speaking as white people with
(28:50):
the privilege of having roles indirection of museums and in
places of power. That we have been speaking to
each other and that now we need to open up and realize that that
that is a colonial stance withinspaces that are open to
everyone. But as an artist, of course, and
(29:12):
Hardy Pandal himself, as someonewho is speaking from that
perspective, there is this idea of the post Brown weirdness,
which I also see as a joke on the jargon of contemporary arts
with the post colonialism, whichwas a term that we use the Lord
at some point. And then we said, wait a minute,
(29:33):
we're not past colonialism. Why are we talking about post
colonialism? And so I love this idea of, oh,
I'm, I overcame my brownness, you know, So I I think it's a
really interesting way of conceptualization because as you
were saying, both of you, he renders these terms accessible
(29:56):
through humor and through storytelling that might not have
been within a more academic setting and type of vocabulary,
let's say your technical vocabulary.
So in this interview that he didfor Lux with Emilia Terracciano,
(30:17):
he says so. Quote from my personal
experience at secondary school in Birmingham, I remember
encountering more hostility fromSouth Asian boys than white,
black or East Asian boys. This was primarily due to
religion, even though most classmates weren't strict, and
the cultural divide between Indian and Pakistani identity,
(30:39):
even though all of us were born in the UK.
Indian Muslims had it both ways.Laughs.
I suspect these attitudes were transmitted via the family home,
but I don't think our school teachers were prepared or
trained to be sensitive to theseissues.
The fallout of partition resurfaced in unexpected and
(31:00):
unrelenting ways. However, there were little to 0
outlets for people belonging to the first generation to think
through and confront it. I had quite an education in
these histories of segregation and I am now avenging the
effects of partition through forms of humanizing violence as
a career. I think my go to preference to
(31:20):
work with suggested and elliptical text and voice in my
work has arisen from the lack ofdirect verbal and textual
communication I am able to have with my mother.
So this is a very big portrait of such a specific relationship
to notions of identity and to the the inheritance of partition
(31:43):
meaning of the division of territories by imperialists
presence, in this case the British one in the South Asian
territories. So it's really interesting to
see how he has been thinking about these questions that then
are the focus of his projects. For example, he had a, he had a
(32:07):
moment in his work quite recently where he explored his
first encounter with the expression BAME.
So BAME means black, Asian and minority ethnic.
And so the this acronym was fromwhat I understood in one of the
(32:31):
forms that he had to fill out when he was at university.
And so that idea of suddenly having a redefinition or a group
of community that he belongs to was very, very interesting to
him. And in the same interview, he
(32:53):
says my work has always been about privilege.
So he also looks within these questions where the privilege is
rather than presuming that the prep privilege is somewhere
specific from the get go. So he explores these notions of
(33:14):
privilege and at the same time, of course, he's really
interested in iconographies, religious iconographies from his
Sikh culture. So there's lots of projects that
are also based on experiences inthe temple when he was a kid and
focusing on certain characters that became characters in the
(33:34):
world building, obviously. I'm also curious if like the
idea of privilege and relating it to video games where like
especially within the swords andsorcery type games where you you
can level up the further you go on a journey and you gain more
armour and you gain more weaponry to be able to face the
(33:57):
world that you're in. I think that's an interesting
relation to like the older you get, the more you understand
what weapons you have and what protection you have for your own
identity in a world that isn't respecting of your identity.
That's. So interesting there, there's so
much to say about gaming in regards to how he panned out
(34:20):
and. It's very fascinating.
It's so fascinating. He's also been really interested
in death within video games and violence.
And at a certain point I was reading about his numerous
projects and he at a certain point talks about massacre, I
(34:42):
think. So massacre.
Cool. And this validation through
violent death in gaming, which Ididn't really understand.
I need to go back to it again that that stayed with me because
as parents who have kids who game, and when you don't game,
(35:07):
you see it from the outside. And the first thing that you
think about is this idea of death and violence.
And I remember thinking that is so counterintuitive and
counterproductive, this idea that you get to die and then go
go at it again. And while having a philosophy, a
(35:28):
personal philosophy based on Buddhism, which is that I think
we die many times in our lives. That would be much more to say
about this really fascinating person, but we will probably
move on to the exhibition leads by the meticulous and
synesthetic sinister sizing handof NASA.
(36:01):
So welcome back, thank you for sticking with us.
We are now going to push the doors of the drawing room, which
are actually being pushed by NAISA himself.
He's going to guide us through it and at the same time share
his first impressions and his reactions to Hardeep Pandal's
(36:21):
exhibition in the world. NAISA, the platform is yours.
Go for it. Thank you.
The space when you entered felt almost like a little museum gift
shop or like a gallery gift shopbecause it has a bookshelf of
books full of illustrations. And then further along to the
(36:42):
right, there's a library space where you can work and study.
And it felt very intimate. It almost felt like a small
university gallery space and I Ireally like that it's tucked
away amongst an estate in like lots of flats.
I think it's really quaint and like, adorable.
And you know what's adorable as well?
(37:03):
Is that library anyone can go into?
It. And they have one of the biggest
collections of books of about contemporary drawing.
They have 4000 items that you can have access to in the most,
in the loveliest of spaces. It's there for you.
(37:27):
So the the exhibition space has two galleries and as you enter
further along, there's a small dark room which has a projection
and it has his piece, which I can't remember this moment, but
it has a video piece playing. And then the larger space is A4
white wall, well actually a three white wall and a glass
(37:49):
wall. And it has his illustrations in
the space, a column in the middle, some benches, some
viewing benches. I think the, the thing that
struck me when I first walked inwas there was this huge, like
cartoon creature painted directly onto the gallery wall.
(38:13):
And it's connecting all of the pieces that are up.
There's one wall which has it's,it's like a series of 15 works
and it's all from 2021 and then the rest are from 2024.
And the large creature that's painted on the walls connects
(38:36):
the 2024 works together. And I always find it very
intriguing when there are piecesof work that are clearly just
being made for that space. And then if the exhibition is a
temporary one, it will just be painted over and will only exist
for that space. And I really enjoy that.
It makes me think of exhibitionsmore as a performance rather
(38:59):
than something that you can commodify or that you can buy.
It's like he's very clearly stating this is for your
experience only within this space, and then it will
disappear. And I really love that.
It's, it's varied. It's very drawing still, even
though the techniques are quite specific.
But there's drawings on the wallon paper, there's framed works
(39:23):
that there's even a canvas at some point.
There's even the painting. And then as you say, there's
this creature that connects you at the actual drawing on the
sheet of paper and on the canvasand then moves out of it and
connects all the walls. And there's one line, one of the
walls is just a line with drips of paint that are super
(39:48):
spontaneous and at the same timevery pleasing aesthetically.
And there's a whole collection of drawings that are part of a
series. And that made me think of a very
famous Hogarth collection of drawings about these sons of
(40:09):
wealthy people who become lost, get lost in lots of types of
vices. And have terrible outcomes in
their lives. It's called Rake's Progress.
So it made me think of somethingreally classical.
But in terms of imagery, it's not at all like that.
(40:30):
And I found it quite spectacularthat this particular kind of
world made me think of somethingso classical at the same time,
which probably says a lot about me as well, but it also says
something of the word. I felt a really visceral world
(40:50):
because of that big drawing thatwe were just talking about,
connecting all of the pieces together.
It almost feels like a showing of something that really comes
from within and it really felt like entering inside.
(41:11):
Well, you know, we're talking about synesthesia and, and this
has never happened to me before in an exhibition, but it's the
first time that I entered an exhibition space and I and I got
a song. Oh.
And I had this, these two lines playing in my head the whole
time and I couldn't stop it. And some of the line is actually
(41:32):
in one of his drawings, which iscrazy.
It was the most bizarre experience.
But so you know, do you know Milo the rapper?
Yeah. So in the beginning of one of
his songs, I think it seems I. Know it thanks to you by the
way. You're welcome.
Thank you. But at the beginning, he said
this is an encyclopedia containing the Latin names of
(41:54):
the ugliest parts of my insides and that.
And it really that to me, that'sjust how it felt, like he's
showing me his insides. And I'll maybe talk about the
other line later, but when we talk more specifically about the
different drawings. So Theresa, what did you look at
(42:16):
first? So you got in, did you go and
watch the video or did you go straight into the the
exhibition? Bigger the bigger exhibition
space where you have all these drawings.
I, I went straight in and watched the video in the first
gallery space where the video, which is called Dragon Peace was
playing. When I, when I first went in, it
(42:36):
was the first thing that I watched.
And it is, it's a, a compilationof him rapping from his bed with
sunglasses on these like sort ofhiking visor sunglasses.
And then it cuts to videos of video game death from dragon
(42:57):
slaying. And it is so bizarre.
And I was, I was really, I was really taken by the humor of it.
I think when you enter an exhibition space, you are
immediately like, Oh, I must digest the arts and not, not
wear a smile. And it immediately like made me
giggle and like completely brokemy composure.
(43:18):
And I was like, this is great. I'm, I'm obsessed that I am
like, it really invites like a lightness to taking in the rest
of the work because the rest of the work takes a lot of
inspiration from fairy tales andI want to say maybe not oracles,
but like religion, religious imagery and like religious
(43:41):
stories. Yeah, I I really got a sense of
his humor from it. There's this very precise space
in your brain that that humor hits.
I felt it's very well done because you are giggling, you
are laughing, you're in, I agreewith you.
You're immediately in, in a, in a good mood and that you carry
(44:07):
these terms that he brings you, that he gives you.
You're carrying these notions into the exhibition.
Because I watched the video first and so I got into the
exhibition in the way that I almost would have preferred if
there were no texts on the wall.Because I think that video is
enough to introduce the questions that he's so
(44:30):
passionate about. And then it leaves space for all
the rest that he's also very passionate about and has nothing
to do with him being a second generation British Sikh or
whatever. It is also his universe and he's
very specific imagery that has to do with gaming, but also like
psychedelic comics, illustration.
(44:55):
Even the kind of drawing, because you have spray, so the
the drawing is sprayed onto the wall easy.
There's airbrushing a lot in thedrawings, which is very
unexpected and produces very weird effects that are quite
striking. Like you were saying Quasha, it
seems to be vibrational almost. The, the first thing that struck
(45:17):
me was definitely the, the painted creature on the wall and
I, it has these like long arms spanning the walls and I was
trying to follow the arms and I,I went to the first arm, which
was as you enter the right sides, so anti clockwise around
the space you went anti. Clockwise, yeah.
(45:40):
What a freak. Absolutely not.
That's wrong. You cannot do that.
That's. So bad no.
And then also interestingly, because I went anti clockwise
and then I arrived to the end ofthe the series of 15
illustrations and the caption said to be read left to right
(46:03):
and I was like, Oh no, I've I'vecompletely I've fucked the
system. I've read it the wrong way but.
You didn't. That's not that.
No, not at. All but then and and then as
soon as I reached that, then I, I believe I went back clockwise.
I I was doing some, I was on my own quest for sure in that
(46:25):
space. And the catalogue is called
Inheritance Quest, which is, which is interesting, but it, it
doesn't matter because it's funny because it was so like
parenthesis. As a curator, what I always do
is I go into the space and I tryto figure out where
instinctively you would go to 1st, which is obviously an
(46:48):
imprecise science because there's always that person who
has synesthesia, he's going to go the other way.
Anything goes, anything goes. It's a space.
You can do whatever you want with it.
I hardly take photographs, but because of the podcast I thought
it would be good because I wanted to make sure that I
(47:10):
remember correctly. That's something that I was a
bit worried about. And so I got my phone and the
drawing changed completely on myphone and it, and it really made
me wonder if that was done on purpose, because it was quite a
(47:32):
striking change. The, the, that the parts of the
drawing that were vibrating all of a sudden were so clear and
had this 3D effect on my phone. But I wonder with all of the
gaming things, it just made me think whether it could
(47:53):
potentially be intention becausethat the only experience I've
had is the always the opposite, that if I do decide to take a
picture, that it always looks horrible and actually erases a
lot of what I'm seeing. And it was the first time that I
was having the opposite where I was not only enhancing it, but
it almost felt like it was revealing a secret.
(48:14):
And it makes me think about those games that we have now
where you point your phones to, you know, real life where you
are. And then these creatures appear
like Pokémon Go. But there's other games like
that as well. And.
Fascinating, yeah. And it's not usual for me to
(48:36):
relate to things like that again, because gaming world is
not really my my world. But I was really enjoying this
new way of experiencing. And I'm not saying that he did
it on purpose. I just, I was just curious and
it was just a different experience that I hadn't really
had before with, with with. Drawing Yeah, I, I definitely
(48:57):
felt a similar experience with the series Inner Worlds, I
think. Yeah.
Inner World, the four illustrations that are censored
in a room, it's like a 4x4 room.And they, they look like self
portraits of him drawing and himplaying video games.
(49:18):
And I looked at them briefly andthen I went to look at some
other works. And when I came back, I realized
that there were characters from Super Mario Bros in there.
There's Toad, there's the littleturtles.
And again, like, he, he, he really just he, he makes me
giggle. The, the, the sense of humor and
(49:39):
the detail is so nice. And I think, I think you're
right in the same thing where like you take a photo and you
are revealed something like coming back to an image, you're
suddenly like, Oh my God. Wait, I know this character.
I've. I've seen this before.
I really enjoyed that, Yeah. OK, I see what you mean.
(50:01):
That's interesting. Didn't happen to me at all.
So the materials used are Indianink, I think pencil, acrylic,
and also airbrushing. And one of the things that
fascinated me, I really loved his self-portrait because right,
(50:22):
that image is incredible. With the chains on the face.
With the chains on the face. So from his forehead emerges
this necklace with these and from the necklace then downward
you have these arms that that they're a part of the necklace,
like a sort of a pendant. And his face is floating.
(50:49):
And that's because he uses airbrushing on drawings.
Like I think it's because he goes beyond what you would you
go do with the airbrushing. He puts an extra layer and then
another layer and then suddenly,or maybe not enough, I don't
know exactly what the technique is, but it gives it a sort of a
(51:09):
hue of blurriness and volume. And then suddenly the face pops
out and it's a very human uniqueface.
And at the same time it looks like a character in a funfair.
Because the the also the textureof the airbrushing makes you
(51:30):
think of things painted on image, imagery painted on stuff,
objects in the street, for advertising or for whatever.
It's so hybrid. It's such a strange image and at
the same time you can't stop looking at it.
It's so vivid and so present. Haunting.
(51:53):
Yeah, in a way it's it's like a very heavy smoke.
Yeah, it feels like a mix, this these different influences In
the one drawing, you'll have something like a Mario character
and then you'll have the, you know, old dripping candle on top
of a piece of wood stuck to a wall at it.
(52:18):
It felt like a a a really beautiful way of of showcasing
this all of his multitudes, but through different styles of of
game and I wonder memory maybe as well.
Yeah, and also it made me think of heavy metal imagery as well.
(52:38):
And there's this reference to 2021, this project where he
made-up this story. Oh, it's actually isn't made-up.
Apparently that's something thathappened to him.
He got into a fight in a heavy metal concert and it made me
think a lot about and I thought he was much younger, know that
(52:59):
he's old, but I thought he was maybe in his early 30s.
And I was thinking how, how doeshe have these references?
Was he listening to heavy metal?Because I associated so much
with my generation and the musicI was listening to when I was
younger. So again, it's this wealth of
(53:20):
passions that he has, they are not particularly connected to
his. I mean, he's not contained by
his generational, the typical products of his generation,
let's say. That's also one of the things I
really loved about him, that he connects to things that are very
(53:43):
that come from very different times and very different
cultures and that makes you connect so specifically with
him. I loved his drawings, which are
just on Indian ink on paper because of course it's drawing
and I love drawing that takes you to other animation, to other
(54:04):
languages and other materials. But I also love Indian ink
drawing. I love that.
And I love that sequence where he there's a lot of text and
apparently he says that those sentences that come to him,
they're just kind of go in thereand they're just isolated
thoughts. And also I love that in some
(54:27):
drawings that are very big and with lots of color in the style
that is more like comics characters that are finished and
that are more that come togetherin a more packaged way, let's
say. And suddenly you have a sentence
with Biropen. Yeah, I was thinking that too.
(54:50):
And like a a little pencil phrase.
Yeah. There's this very this, this
atmosphere that he creates that is so inviting in the sense of,
you know, come and see this, this world that I want to share
with you. But also in such like a it does
(55:11):
the fantastical aspect, but alsothe very homely aspect, because
the whole time that you are seeing the exhibition, you can
hear in the background the rap that he's rapping.
Yes, that that he's in bed and that.
Yeah. And he's, you know, like it just
to me is so reminiscent of, you know, I will maybe be doing my
own thing with friends or at home and my brothers are in the
(55:34):
other room doing a rap together or sharing a song and messing
around. And it just feels like you're in
someone's home and someone's just in the other room messing
around or rapping with a friend.And and it is, yeah.
It, it, it, it, it really puts you at at ease and, and, and,
(55:57):
and in this humor, but yet you are surrounded by something that
also feels so intimate. And I wanted to talk about the
writing as well because that's another moment that I had with
the with the song, because the other lyric of Milo's song is,
he says in this loop, people of color coloring, people of color
(56:21):
coloring. Coloring.
And and then I I have this song stuck in my head and then I'm
going through the drawings and in one of them he writes over
and over again in a loop. It changes a bit, but it's
pretty much just him saying I have some urgent coloring in to
do. Yes.
And in all of those things of those series, the drawings are
(56:44):
not colored in. And so it's this kind of like
refusal of this, the way that they are kind of forced to
identify, forced to have to talkabout their, the, the, the, the,
the, the colour of their skin. And at the same time, he, he is
(57:05):
colouring in and, and, and kind of showing us all of these,
well, the different aspects of his insides and, and also the,
the colouring in, you know, I have some urgent colouring in to
do. Made me think of because
colouring in is something that she say a lot with children.
We're going to do some colouring.
We're going to colour inside thelines and sometimes, you know,
(57:29):
because he's drawing cartoons and how that's still something I
think that he's viewed as a child style of drawing and not
such a serious high form of art.And it just spoke to me in so
many ways. And it was such a coincidence
that it just was playing in my mind so much and again, made me
(57:50):
think of that kid that I worked with that to me was doing such
important art and but it just was seen as kind of childish and
not so important. So this thing, if I have some
urgent coloring in to do, it feels like almost like a joke,
like because like, like it's noturgent, but it is.
(58:11):
And yeah. It felt like reading a really
accessible comics book because there's a lot of stories, so you
go into the exhibition and you learn a lot about a person and
their musings, their obsessions,their fears, the monsters that
(58:33):
live with them. It made me think of Goya.
It made me think of really traditional classical references
for some reason, because it's quite dark.
We keep talking about humor, butthere's a lot of darkness in
there, like lots of comics do and lots of these worlds.
They talk a lot about attacks. They talk a lot about, like you
(58:58):
say, pushing you into your own identity, but it is your own
identity. But you don't see yourself like
that. You're made of multiplicities
and it almost makes you feel like you're entering into
someone's world who's also telling you.
Yeah. I mean, you can go through me
(59:18):
and through this inner world from through so many aspects,
and none of them are acceptable because maybe I was prejudiced
also in thinking he was younger because of this world's building
that he does, which connotes as childish.
And my mind maybe went there anddid the thing that he's telling
(59:38):
us we do, which is presume a lotof things about someone because
of what they're talking about. So this claim to be very
specific, but at the same time not be reduced to that
specificity is so present in in in the show.
It's. Yeah, it's really.
(01:00:01):
Yeah, there's a lot to read and at the same time you don't have
to. There's also that freedom
because sometimes one of the things that I was thinking is
maybe a not professional was thinking you.
I I love a thing about drawing, which is that most of the time
it is supposed to be to end up in a book.
And here is the other way around.
(01:00:21):
It's these drawings that are extracted from those worlds
suddenly are in the exhibition space.
But it doesn't make for a difficult exhibition experience
because you can pick and choose.It's like a game of multiple
choice. You can take the alleyway or you
can kill that character or you can maybe run away from the
(01:00:42):
character. And there's there's this is just
one room, but it felt like you had a lot of dimensions to the
exhibition and even the space. Actually, we at you end up
seeing the space in a completelydifferent way.
And not one time that I think, oh, this is a single room.
You know, there was sometimes I do when I go to the drawing
(01:01:02):
room, I think, oh, it's A and that ceilings are very high and
it's a, it's a, it's a very specific kind of space.
But no, it was. It felt very like little doors
and little spaces that you go. Into it's still very quest like
in that sense. I think also how some of the
illustrations are from A room, literally and then the video is
(01:01:26):
from his bedroom. It's like makes the whole space
expansive because you're it's from within the mind.
So your your imagination is expanding with it and you're
making all of these connections to traditional artists and like
medieval quests and video games.That was a a joy to experience
(01:01:48):
on well. Thank you so much.
Thank you for doing this and thank you for listening.
Thank you for sticking with us. We are so very happy to have
shared this exhibition with you.If you can visit it, go.
It's there for a while still until May if I'm not mistaken.
(01:02:08):
And if you can't, there is therewill be images in the Instagram
account of exhibitionist as you can watch the video.
There's images there if you're having just a Sonic experience
with us. And obviously there's the
drawing room website that you can go to and also Javeri
(01:02:29):
Contemporary, which is the artists gallery that has a lot
of images of his work. So thank you so much for
sticking with us and until next time, have a great, great day.
Bye bye, take care. Thank you.
Bye.
Hi there, and thanks so much fortuning in.
So one of the reasons why I started Exhibition Esters is
because as an outwriter, sometimes I feel that I'm in a
very comfortable bubble talking to people who have the same
references that I do. Of course, artists force us to
burst the bubble and look beyondit many, many times, as is the
(00:35):
case of the artists we're talking about today.
But I also believe that the spectator experience, whether
you work in the art field or youdon't, actually brings that
weirdness and that specificity, that uniqueness that makes us
all want to talk to each other and exchange experiences.
That's why I always try to invite Co hosts who compliments
(00:58):
me, I the professional or because they don't work in the
art field. So I have two Co hosts today and
they expand that desire of complementarity, but also of
contrast because they are, yes, they are young, they are Gen.
ZS. So we will have a Gen.
X, Gen. Z battle or should I say episode
(01:21):
this time. And it was the most delightful
experience and I think it will be for you as well.
So another thing I'd like to tell you is that I start the
episode differently this time. So in the vein of this idea of
exploring the spectator experience with its
idiosyncrasies, I talk about with my two Co hosts are
(01:43):
different kinds of brains. So one of us is aphantasic, the
other one has synesthesia, and the other one is dyslexic.
And these three specificities affect the way you behave in the
space and also how you perceive it.
This might become a full blown episode.
So if you have any experiences with these neurological
witnesses, please get in touch. I'm really interested in your
(02:06):
experience and finally, I needs to be sustainable through many
sources and follower support is the first one I can rely on
before reaching out to sponsors trying to apply for grants, for
example. So your role is really important
and your behavior can affect thecommunity that we are.
(02:26):
So the link is there for you. You can donate 2 EUR, 2 lbs more
than that, whatever is comfortable for you.
And if you cannot do it, well, rest assured that people will do
it for you. And when you can, you can do it
for them because they might not be able to at that moment.
That's how we create a community.
(02:48):
That's how we also support intellectual entrepreneurship.
That's how I want to call myselffrom now on.
So without further ado, let's explore this generation gap.
Let's listen to the episode about Hadeep Pandal and his
inner world. Hello and welcome to Exhibition
(03:19):
Listers, the podcast where we visit Exhibition separately and
compare notes during the episode.
Today I am swimming across the generational gap because my two
guest Co hosts are going throughtheir second decades on the
planet, whereas I will be celebrating my fifth one in a
year. So we are going to talk about
(03:41):
and we're going to visit for thefirst time the excellent Drawing
Room and we're going to talk about Hardeep Pandal's
exhibition in a World. But first, I will introduce my
lovely, lovely guest Co hosts for the very first time in the
podcast. Naisa Bjorn, who is an
(04:02):
interdisciplinary movement artist and also does other
things, but he'll tell us all about it.
And Kushnasa Saturnin, who is a returning guest.
You probably remember her from the festivities episode.
She is a visual artist who trained as a dancer and combines
all of those practices. So what do you have going on in
(04:24):
your life? But first and foremost, welcome
and thank you so much for joining me in this podcast.
Welcome, welcome. Currently, I am having a quieter
moment on the freelance scene, but on the side I cut hair as a
hairdresser, not just a fade, isthe business name.
(04:45):
And I'm also slowly working on asolo piece that will hopefully
be premiering next year. And working by yourself is hard,
especially as a dancer in the studio all alone with four white
walls. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting
process and I think I definitely, I'm searching for
(05:06):
some collaborators to have in the space because it's a quiet,
lonely process. And Quasha, what do you have
going on in your life right now?Yes, quite similar to nice.
It's a bit of a quiet time, justfocusing more on being in the
studio and making, which is niceand important.
(05:30):
But I do a tattoo on the side. I just hosted the first little
tattoo event yesterday in the world space, which is an arts
residency space that's also utilized for other events.
Yeah. Amazing.
OK, great. So usually in the podcast I ask
(05:53):
the, I think now very familiar question, what has been going on
culture wise in your lives? But I have a different question
today because two of us here have been diagnosed with ADHD.
I'm one of them and I actually write about it on my sub stack.
I'm interested in the spectator experience and how unique it is
(06:17):
as an experience and singular and at the same time how
congregating it can be through those differences.
And each one of us has a form ofweirdness in terms of perception
of space. And they're very different.
So 1 by 1. So you have dyslexia, which
means that you have a very, I don't think a lot of people know
(06:41):
this, but the perception of space is affected when you have
dyslexia. It is said that you think in 3D
and that's why it kind of lets us pop out and you switch
syllables and all of that. And so how does that affect your
perception of space, but obviously in particular
exhibition spaces and maybe evenyour relationship to art, art
(07:04):
making, artworks? I used to live above Poundlands
when I went to visit the flats. You have to go through this
alleyway and then turn on the left of these stairs where you
then are on this sort of balcony.
Not balcony, but. Terrace.
(07:26):
The Landing. Oh, Terrace.
And so then you have the door and you enter the flat and
that's how you get, you know, above the the Poundland flats
from going behind and then getting up the stairs through
the terrace to get into the flat.
And I was in the flat visiting it.
The tenant is very excited, saying this is lovely space,
(07:48):
love being here. Oh, I look through the window of
the kitchen. You can see the terrace.
We, we have loads of barbecues there in the summer.
It's really nice. And I was looking out the window
and I was thinking, oh wow, I can't wait to go there.
But I just want to get into the flat As soon as I enter a room,
(08:11):
anything that was before that room, I don't remember.
So I'm very present physically where I am all the time, but I
can't remember where where I've been.
It's not that you don't remember, no feel.
It's like you can't reconfigure the space.
Yes. OK, well and what about
(08:32):
exhibitions then exhibition visiting, is that is there
something that you feel can connect, you can connect to?
I think sometimes there's that little anxiety when there's lots
of rooms and the kind of optionsto to take different routes, the
kind of thing of, you know, is there a right way to go about
(08:55):
this? Have I been here before?
But so do you prefer a directional space, A directional
exhibition like where you can't just roam about, you just have
to visit it in that very specific order?
Yeah, I get very I get overwhelmed when when there's
lots of possibility to roam around and you can kind of these
work to go, but it feels very. Do you know what?
(09:19):
Do you remember COVID when museums had these arrows?
On the floor. And you, I loved it.
I loved it. So everyone was complaining
about it. And I was like, this is so
logical. You can just focus on the art.
You don't have to make choices. Why do people need choices?
I mean, I, I loved it at the at the supermarket as well.
(09:40):
Yes, like it made my my trip so much quicker because I'm not
like, oh wait, let me just turn back and go back to that aisle.
It's like. OK.
So moving on to NASA, you have synesthesia.
Tell us what that is and how youthink it might affect your
relationship to exhibition going.
(10:03):
So synesthesia is when when you experience one sense, you
experience another one at the same time.
So for example, a common one is listening to music and seeing
colours or hearing sounds and smelling things or like I think
often another one is also like certain smells, illicit memories
(10:24):
and nostalgia. My I think the one of the
biggest effects of synesthesia Ihave is when I listen to music,
I really feel it in a textural way.
It's like this sound feels like a train zooming away or like
this sound really feels like slime moving.
And I think it really informs mymovement practice and how I
(10:46):
react to sound. And when you first asked me this
question, I was thinking about it in relation to exhibitions.
And I realized when I go and seethings, I will also like
viscerally feel the texture of the work or the piece.
And I think sometimes it makes me be like, I don't like that
because of like how I experienceit.
(11:07):
And then I have to take a secondand be like, wait, let me just
sit with the sensation and really take in the art first.
But yeah, I found I find that like some sculptures or a lot of
mixed media work will really like, I will really viscerally
feel a texture or something in my body.
(11:30):
Yeah, so in my Instagram, what do you call it, Profile
description. I guess I, I kind of announced
myself as the aphantasic curatorbecause everyone asks me as soon
as I explain what aphantasia is,which is not being able to
visualize willingly or even unwillingly.
Most of the time people say, so how can you be a curator?
(11:54):
This is the first question. So I like to put it out there,
you know, as kind of a, yeah, there are different
relationships to spaces and to images.
So does that means that I cannotsee anything?
So if I say banana, you will immediately see a banana, right.
So I don't see anything. And even if I try to see a
(12:15):
banana, nothing comes. So that's it baby, that that's
basically just what aphantasia is.
And apparently it's common in people with neurodivergences in
in general. So I have a.
Theory that that's what what makes you so good with words
because you don't have all theseimages distracting you in your
(12:38):
head so I feel like it allows you to be more precise whereas I
feel like I struggle with my words because I have such vivid
images in my mind that I think there's no way that my words
could ever amount to what I can see I.
I I feel the same, yeah. It's my home.
(12:58):
It's, I feel that it's my because people ask me like, so
how can you remember? Do you have memories?
I have very vivid memories and that's how exhibitions affect me
and how I felt and how I what I thought and what that led me to
and what state I kind of steppedinto when I visit an exhibition.
(13:22):
And I'm far more interested in that than fetishizing the
objects In some ways, this idea of ownership or this idea of
this absolute need for them to be there all the time, which
thankfully leads to collecting and feeds artists.
But I don't have that necessity because for me it's a dynamic
(13:43):
relationship with that thing in in that space.
And then it becomes an A personal adventure or a
collective adventure. To me, it's more an experience.
We do have to move on to the exhibition.
First of all, talk a little bit about the drawing room, which is
a very special space and it's also medium based.
(14:06):
So I think that warrants a bit of an introduction.
OK, so the drawing Room has a really fascinating history
because it was founded by three curators, Mary Doyle, Kate
McFarlane and Katherine Stout in2002.
So Mary Doyle and Kate McFarlaneare still the Co directors of
(14:26):
the space and Katherine Stout I think is a trustee or has
another role within the institution.
But the interesting thing is that and that I didn't know
because I know that drawing roomquite well is that they started
as a curatorial projects that was touring around the UK and
then they found the space and they devised the program, found
(14:48):
funding, etcetera. So the space that you visited,
which is absolutely incredible, they just moved in there I think
in 2023. It's a new space is kind of the
culmination of a very, very big journey, I think into becoming
the institution that it is today.
(15:10):
But I have a question for you actually.
Do you find it strange that you have an institution that is
based on the discipline and particularly the discipline of
drawing? No, I think it's great.
And you? Approve.
I approve. I mean, I, I find it interesting
because I feel like there's so much focus on painting in the
(15:33):
arts and like the National Portrait Gallery, when you think
of portraits, you'd think of a painting as opposed to a
sculpture or an illustration. And, and I also feel like
recently I've been enjoying comics a lot.
And there's a, there's a few artists, one called Rudy 69999,
(15:56):
I think on Instagram. And he makes these like little
doodle comics and posts them on Instagram.
And they are so touching and beautiful.
They really like, they really emote a lot from me.
And it's definitely made me rekindle my love for doodling as
well. And I think it's an art form
that you can spend hours or minutes on.
(16:18):
And I find that really powerful.I I'm I'm a big advocate for
drawing, basically. I didn't know we had you on
board, Naisa. I'm so I'm so glad.
No, absolutely. Well, yeah, it is interesting
because so drawing was not part of the genres of the art, right?
It was architecture, painting. So I'm talking about Renaissance
(16:40):
and you know the the academies in the past.
So painting, architecture and sculpture.
So those were the three major genres and drawing had a very
strange status within that history because it was seen as
the father of the arts. So it's kind of the patriarch as
as it were, as described by Giorgio Vasari in during the
(17:03):
Renaissance. So it there is this weird
history where drawing, when we come to the 60s, so when we come
to the new avant-garde, so kind of these big movements that
again rejected painting or kind of try to redefine the
relationship to those genres. They adopted photography and
(17:24):
drawing as these kind of undisputed disciplines that they
didn't argue against, let's say,or try to redefine.
There's also a lot of people still, even professionals in the
art world or in the art field who consider drawing still like
sort of a project, like a minor discipline or genre or medium or
(17:49):
whatever you want to call it. And it's interesting to see that
you have the photographer's gallery and you have the drawing
room and you have the photographer's gallery as a new
medium because new technology. And then you have drawing, which
probably might be the oldest, like you say, most kind of
visceral and compulsive form of arts, being these kind of very
(18:12):
cutting edge mediums in some ways or these disciplines that
sometimes by some people are notreally considered arts and
therefore having an institution that defends them as such is
really important. But I I'm really passionate
about what Nice was saying. I experienced a a big culture
(18:34):
shock moving to this country from France because in France
cartoons and what are they called?
Comics. Comic.
Yes, comic books are so. Valued are so.
Valued. Yeah, but it's not.
But not just. They're valued for children and
(18:55):
for adults and old ages, really.And then I came here and there
was none. And my peers weren't reading
comic books that would go to thelibrary and they weren't any
comic books. I couldn't believe it.
And animation as well, I feel like it's not very as valued
here as it is in France because it is seen a lot more as a as a
form of arts. And I think it's, yeah, we can
(19:16):
talk about this more later as well, because that's something
that is something that I thoughta lot about with this exhibition
because of the drawing style. And it was really so exciting to
see that type of that type of drawing in an exhibition space.
And also because as someone who taught arts to kids, that was
(19:36):
very strictly told that my kids couldn't be drawing cartoons.
No. Yes, I think that we have such a
closed mindset when it comes to drawing still where it is coming
more into the exhibition space, but we still cast aside a lot of
drawing styles like cartoon and comic books and.
(20:01):
Yeah, yeah. So kudos to the drawing room and
to Hardeep Pandal, actually to bring this kind of iconography
into the exhibition space. And so to introduce Hardeep
Pandal a little bit, first of all, I need to give a big thanks
to Andrew Judd at Javeri Contemporary, which is the
(20:23):
artist gallery in Mumbai that has also an office here in
London. And they gave me the most
comprehensive press portfolio, artist portfolio, published
catalogues in PDF form. And it's so incredible and it
doesn't happen a lot. And thank you also to The
Drawing Room, who also sent me alot of information about the
(20:46):
artists. Hardy Pandal was born in
Birmingham in 1985. He is a second generation
British Sikh and he received hisBA from Leeds Beckett University
in 2007 and his MFA from GlasgowSchool of Art in 2013.
(21:06):
He is also known as and here this is going to be a tough one
because I may be mispronouncing this.
So he's also known as medieval. I want to say I will write it.
It's going to be on the screen to those who are watching the
video or mid level, I don't know.
Anyway, it's his activity as a songwriter slash voice artists,
(21:31):
video artists. So Hardy Pandal has a wealth of
visual languages and voice worksthat that are really, really
incredible and very prolific. So he works predominantly with
drawing. His visual and Sonic world
building develops through associative thinking and each
(21:53):
project is research led and explores what he calls post
Brown weirdness. So he shows his work a lot.
In Scotland in 2020 had an exhibition at the Goldsmith
Center of Contemporary Arts Tramway, Glasgow in 2020, as
well New Art Exchange in Nottingham, a big show in 2020,
(22:15):
In 2019 Watch Chapel Gallery, South London Gallery, New Museum
in New York and many other art spaces.
He was shortlisted for the German Award in 2018 and
selected for Bloomberg New Contemporaries in 2013.
So as he was finishing his MFA. He has had a really beautiful
(22:38):
career, but at the same time he's shown his work a lot
outside of London, so it's really great to see.
Also in the drawing room, an artist who we don't get to see a
lot. He uses drawing as his main
activity of course, but his exhibitions are more these
projects that take over the space and the drawing room is no
(22:58):
exception. So there's objects, there's this
notion of installation, but there's also video.
So you can go on YouTube and watch particularly the video
that is discussed in the catalogue that you can find that
the drawing room as well online and in the space called Riddles
on Backstreet. So it's signed by Medieval and
(23:22):
Vandalorem featuring Mr. Ugly and it's a collaboration by Hadi
Pandal and Adam Sinclair. And I really, really urge you to
watch it. It's beautiful, it's amazing.
So he works with also textiles. He talks about this
collaboration with his mother who was knitting these sweaters
(23:42):
for him at some point. And so he decided to include
those knittings and also reinterpret them.
But he describes this relationship with his mom as a
kind of a constant thread, as itwere, no pun intended, in his
work, because of the language barrier between both of them.
So she doesn't speak English very well and he's learning
(24:07):
Punjabi, but it it is difficult.So they're both kind of trying
to meet halfway, and that's one of the things that drives a
certain aspect of his work. So in 2015, he was a recipient
of the drawing bursary and he described his work as having
(24:27):
been led by short term agendas for institutions.
And I'm quoting him here. And in 2021 he experienced the
shift in the work where he decided to move into this notion
of world building. So storytelling, sick
(24:48):
storytelling, gaming, personal stories.
So this hybrid composite, visualand sound narrative worlds very
much inspired by sword and sorcery.
So for people who don't know such as myself, sword and
sorcery is described as a world where there is no fate of the
(25:11):
world at stake. Particularly it is a more action
sub genre and it's more morally grey.
It's more character driven than really this kind of high fantasy
kind of storytelling that his kind of universe let's say is
(25:31):
called the Pinto verse after a family joke.
So his father, whenever he had to call a taxi or to give his
name, he would say his name was Pinto.
And so Pandal interprets this this as it being a way of
building a character to exist inout there in the world, to face
(25:56):
the world somehow. And for me it was very strange.
And again, we go into this idea of the spectator perspective
because my name is Joanna Pionevis and the P stands for
Pinto because Pinto is a Portuguese name.
And immediately I thought, oh, his family.
(26:16):
So he's South Asian of or of South Asian descent.
So his family might come from Goa because in Goa there was a
Portuguese presence, let's call it that.
And so kind of the inheritance of the colonizer was visiting
the exhibition of someone who talks about the the fact that
(26:37):
colonialism is still here and isstill very much alive, but
manifesting in other ways. I don't know where Pinto comes
from. It probably is a
misinterpretation on my part forsure.
Maybe it's a Punjabi word. So questions for you.
Did you know about sword and sorcery?
Did you think about it when you visited the exhibition?
I mean, I think it definitely made me think of Dungeons and
(26:59):
Dragons and like Co-op board games.
And I actually recently went to a board game Cafe and played a
board game with some friends called Escape the Castle.
And at first we were like whatever.
Like it'll just be a chill like a few pints and a board game.
(27:22):
Oh my God, no way. Every time we every time we
rolled the dice, we were screaming.
The tension, the agony like. It was.
Honestly, we we did not expect to be so taken by the charm of
the board game. But it really it it it really.
Yeah. I feel like I really connected
(27:42):
with that within the exhibition of this idea of like, his group
of friends on a quest and then facing obstacles.
Transcribing a different format onto a real experience allows
people to access it more easily and to, like, everyone knows
about Dragons and Knights because we've heard about them
(28:04):
since we were kids. And I think hearing this, like,
trivialized way of describing itwas really nice, to be honest.
I really enjoyed it. Yeah.
So to talk a little bit about this idea of post Brown
weirdness, which is his own termfor this disentanglement of post
(28:28):
colonial and decolonization thatwe talk a lot about now in
academia, but also in the curating field.
We talk a lot about decolonizingthe museum.
There's a conscious efforts being made into bringing into
the museum these questions. There's this consciousness of
the fact that we have been speaking as white people with
(28:50):
the privilege of having roles indirection of museums and in
places of power. That we have been speaking to
each other and that now we need to open up and realize that that
that is a colonial stance withinspaces that are open to
everyone. But as an artist, of course, and
(29:12):
Hardy Pandal himself, as someonewho is speaking from that
perspective, there is this idea of the post Brown weirdness,
which I also see as a joke on the jargon of contemporary arts
with the post colonialism, whichwas a term that we use the Lord
at some point. And then we said, wait a minute,
(29:33):
we're not past colonialism. Why are we talking about post
colonialism? And so I love this idea of, oh,
I'm, I overcame my brownness, you know, So I I think it's a
really interesting way of conceptualization because as you
were saying, both of you, he renders these terms accessible
(29:56):
through humor and through storytelling that might not have
been within a more academic setting and type of vocabulary,
let's say your technical vocabulary.
So in this interview that he didfor Lux with Emilia Terracciano,
(30:17):
he says so. Quote from my personal
experience at secondary school in Birmingham, I remember
encountering more hostility fromSouth Asian boys than white,
black or East Asian boys. This was primarily due to
religion, even though most classmates weren't strict, and
the cultural divide between Indian and Pakistani identity,
(30:39):
even though all of us were born in the UK.
Indian Muslims had it both ways.Laughs.
I suspect these attitudes were transmitted via the family home,
but I don't think our school teachers were prepared or
trained to be sensitive to theseissues.
The fallout of partition resurfaced in unexpected and
(31:00):
unrelenting ways. However, there were little to 0
outlets for people belonging to the first generation to think
through and confront it. I had quite an education in
these histories of segregation and I am now avenging the
effects of partition through forms of humanizing violence as
a career. I think my go to preference to
(31:20):
work with suggested and elliptical text and voice in my
work has arisen from the lack ofdirect verbal and textual
communication I am able to have with my mother.
So this is a very big portrait of such a specific relationship
to notions of identity and to the the inheritance of partition
(31:43):
meaning of the division of territories by imperialists
presence, in this case the British one in the South Asian
territories. So it's really interesting to
see how he has been thinking about these questions that then
are the focus of his projects. For example, he had a, he had a
(32:07):
moment in his work quite recently where he explored his
first encounter with the expression BAME.
So BAME means black, Asian and minority ethnic.
And so the this acronym was fromwhat I understood in one of the
(32:31):
forms that he had to fill out when he was at university.
And so that idea of suddenly having a redefinition or a group
of community that he belongs to was very, very interesting to
him. And in the same interview, he
(32:53):
says my work has always been about privilege.
So he also looks within these questions where the privilege is
rather than presuming that the prep privilege is somewhere
specific from the get go. So he explores these notions of
(33:14):
privilege and at the same time, of course, he's really
interested in iconographies, religious iconographies from his
Sikh culture. So there's lots of projects that
are also based on experiences inthe temple when he was a kid and
focusing on certain characters that became characters in the
(33:34):
world building, obviously. I'm also curious if like the
idea of privilege and relating it to video games where like
especially within the swords andsorcery type games where you you
can level up the further you go on a journey and you gain more
armour and you gain more weaponry to be able to face the
(33:57):
world that you're in. I think that's an interesting
relation to like the older you get, the more you understand
what weapons you have and what protection you have for your own
identity in a world that isn't respecting of your identity.
That's. So interesting there, there's so
much to say about gaming in regards to how he panned out
(34:20):
and. It's very fascinating.
It's so fascinating. He's also been really interested
in death within video games and violence.
And at a certain point I was reading about his numerous
projects and he at a certain point talks about massacre, I
(34:42):
think. So massacre.
Cool. And this validation through
violent death in gaming, which Ididn't really understand.
I need to go back to it again that that stayed with me because
as parents who have kids who game, and when you don't game,
(35:07):
you see it from the outside. And the first thing that you
think about is this idea of death and violence.
And I remember thinking that is so counterintuitive and
counterproductive, this idea that you get to die and then go
go at it again. And while having a philosophy, a
(35:28):
personal philosophy based on Buddhism, which is that I think
we die many times in our lives. That would be much more to say
about this really fascinating person, but we will probably
move on to the exhibition leads by the meticulous and
synesthetic sinister sizing handof NASA.
(36:01):
So welcome back, thank you for sticking with us.
We are now going to push the doors of the drawing room, which
are actually being pushed by NAISA himself.
He's going to guide us through it and at the same time share
his first impressions and his reactions to Hardeep Pandal's
(36:21):
exhibition in the world. NAISA, the platform is yours.
Go for it. Thank you.
The space when you entered felt almost like a little museum gift
shop or like a gallery gift shopbecause it has a bookshelf of
books full of illustrations. And then further along to the
(36:42):
right, there's a library space where you can work and study.
And it felt very intimate. It almost felt like a small
university gallery space and I Ireally like that it's tucked
away amongst an estate in like lots of flats.
I think it's really quaint and like, adorable.
And you know what's adorable as well?
(37:03):
Is that library anyone can go into?
It. And they have one of the biggest
collections of books of about contemporary drawing.
They have 4000 items that you can have access to in the most,
in the loveliest of spaces. It's there for you.
(37:27):
So the the exhibition space has two galleries and as you enter
further along, there's a small dark room which has a projection
and it has his piece, which I can't remember this moment, but
it has a video piece playing. And then the larger space is A4
white wall, well actually a three white wall and a glass
(37:49):
wall. And it has his illustrations in
the space, a column in the middle, some benches, some
viewing benches. I think the, the thing that
struck me when I first walked inwas there was this huge, like
cartoon creature painted directly onto the gallery wall.
(38:13):
And it's connecting all of the pieces that are up.
There's one wall which has it's,it's like a series of 15 works
and it's all from 2021 and then the rest are from 2024.
And the large creature that's painted on the walls connects
(38:36):
the 2024 works together. And I always find it very
intriguing when there are piecesof work that are clearly just
being made for that space. And then if the exhibition is a
temporary one, it will just be painted over and will only exist
for that space. And I really enjoy that.
It makes me think of exhibitionsmore as a performance rather
(38:59):
than something that you can commodify or that you can buy.
It's like he's very clearly stating this is for your
experience only within this space, and then it will
disappear. And I really love that.
It's, it's varied. It's very drawing still, even
though the techniques are quite specific.
But there's drawings on the wallon paper, there's framed works
(39:23):
that there's even a canvas at some point.
There's even the painting. And then as you say, there's
this creature that connects you at the actual drawing on the
sheet of paper and on the canvasand then moves out of it and
connects all the walls. And there's one line, one of the
walls is just a line with drips of paint that are super
(39:48):
spontaneous and at the same timevery pleasing aesthetically.
And there's a whole collection of drawings that are part of a
series. And that made me think of a very
famous Hogarth collection of drawings about these sons of
(40:09):
wealthy people who become lost, get lost in lots of types of
vices. And have terrible outcomes in
their lives. It's called Rake's Progress.
So it made me think of somethingreally classical.
But in terms of imagery, it's not at all like that.
(40:30):
And I found it quite spectacularthat this particular kind of
world made me think of somethingso classical at the same time,
which probably says a lot about me as well, but it also says
something of the word. I felt a really visceral world
(40:50):
because of that big drawing thatwe were just talking about,
connecting all of the pieces together.
It almost feels like a showing of something that really comes
from within and it really felt like entering inside.
(41:11):
Well, you know, we're talking about synesthesia and, and this
has never happened to me before in an exhibition, but it's the
first time that I entered an exhibition space and I and I got
a song. Oh.
And I had this, these two lines playing in my head the whole
time and I couldn't stop it. And some of the line is actually
(41:32):
in one of his drawings, which iscrazy.
It was the most bizarre experience.
But so you know, do you know Milo the rapper?
Yeah. So in the beginning of one of
his songs, I think it seems I. Know it thanks to you by the
way. You're welcome.
Thank you. But at the beginning, he said
this is an encyclopedia containing the Latin names of
(41:54):
the ugliest parts of my insides and that.
And it really that to me, that'sjust how it felt, like he's
showing me his insides. And I'll maybe talk about the
other line later, but when we talk more specifically about the
different drawings. So Theresa, what did you look at
(42:16):
first? So you got in, did you go and
watch the video or did you go straight into the the
exhibition? Bigger the bigger exhibition
space where you have all these drawings.
I, I went straight in and watched the video in the first
gallery space where the video, which is called Dragon Peace was
playing. When I, when I first went in, it
(42:36):
was the first thing that I watched.
And it is, it's a, a compilationof him rapping from his bed with
sunglasses on these like sort ofhiking visor sunglasses.
And then it cuts to videos of video game death from dragon
(42:57):
slaying. And it is so bizarre.
And I was, I was really, I was really taken by the humor of it.
I think when you enter an exhibition space, you are
immediately like, Oh, I must digest the arts and not, not
wear a smile. And it immediately like made me
giggle and like completely brokemy composure.
(43:18):
And I was like, this is great. I'm, I'm obsessed that I am
like, it really invites like a lightness to taking in the rest
of the work because the rest of the work takes a lot of
inspiration from fairy tales andI want to say maybe not oracles,
but like religion, religious imagery and like religious
(43:41):
stories. Yeah, I I really got a sense of
his humor from it. There's this very precise space
in your brain that that humor hits.
I felt it's very well done because you are giggling, you
are laughing, you're in, I agreewith you.
You're immediately in, in a, in a good mood and that you carry
(44:07):
these terms that he brings you, that he gives you.
You're carrying these notions into the exhibition.
Because I watched the video first and so I got into the
exhibition in the way that I almost would have preferred if
there were no texts on the wall.Because I think that video is
enough to introduce the questions that he's so
(44:30):
passionate about. And then it leaves space for all
the rest that he's also very passionate about and has nothing
to do with him being a second generation British Sikh or
whatever. It is also his universe and he's
very specific imagery that has to do with gaming, but also like
psychedelic comics, illustration.
(44:55):
Even the kind of drawing, because you have spray, so the
the drawing is sprayed onto the wall easy.
There's airbrushing a lot in thedrawings, which is very
unexpected and produces very weird effects that are quite
striking. Like you were saying Quasha, it
seems to be vibrational almost. The, the first thing that struck
(45:17):
me was definitely the, the painted creature on the wall and
I, it has these like long arms spanning the walls and I was
trying to follow the arms and I,I went to the first arm, which
was as you enter the right sides, so anti clockwise around
the space you went anti. Clockwise, yeah.
(45:40):
What a freak. Absolutely not.
That's wrong. You cannot do that.
That's. So bad no.
And then also interestingly, because I went anti clockwise
and then I arrived to the end ofthe the series of 15
illustrations and the caption said to be read left to right
(46:03):
and I was like, Oh no, I've I'vecompletely I've fucked the
system. I've read it the wrong way but.
You didn't. That's not that.
No, not at. All but then and and then as
soon as I reached that, then I, I believe I went back clockwise.
I I was doing some, I was on my own quest for sure in that
(46:25):
space. And the catalogue is called
Inheritance Quest, which is, which is interesting, but it, it
doesn't matter because it's funny because it was so like
parenthesis. As a curator, what I always do
is I go into the space and I tryto figure out where
instinctively you would go to 1st, which is obviously an
(46:48):
imprecise science because there's always that person who
has synesthesia, he's going to go the other way.
Anything goes, anything goes. It's a space.
You can do whatever you want with it.
I hardly take photographs, but because of the podcast I thought
it would be good because I wanted to make sure that I
(47:10):
remember correctly. That's something that I was a
bit worried about. And so I got my phone and the
drawing changed completely on myphone and it, and it really made
me wonder if that was done on purpose, because it was quite a
(47:32):
striking change. The, the, that the parts of the
drawing that were vibrating all of a sudden were so clear and
had this 3D effect on my phone. But I wonder with all of the
gaming things, it just made me think whether it could
(47:53):
potentially be intention becausethat the only experience I've
had is the always the opposite, that if I do decide to take a
picture, that it always looks horrible and actually erases a
lot of what I'm seeing. And it was the first time that I
was having the opposite where I was not only enhancing it, but
it almost felt like it was revealing a secret.
(48:14):
And it makes me think about those games that we have now
where you point your phones to, you know, real life where you
are. And then these creatures appear
like Pokémon Go. But there's other games like
that as well. And.
Fascinating, yeah. And it's not usual for me to
(48:36):
relate to things like that again, because gaming world is
not really my my world. But I was really enjoying this
new way of experiencing. And I'm not saying that he did
it on purpose. I just, I was just curious and
it was just a different experience that I hadn't really
had before with, with with. Drawing Yeah, I, I definitely
(48:57):
felt a similar experience with the series Inner Worlds, I
think. Yeah.
Inner World, the four illustrations that are censored
in a room, it's like a 4x4 room.And they, they look like self
portraits of him drawing and himplaying video games.
(49:18):
And I looked at them briefly andthen I went to look at some
other works. And when I came back, I realized
that there were characters from Super Mario Bros in there.
There's Toad, there's the littleturtles.
And again, like, he, he, he really just he, he makes me
giggle. The, the, the sense of humor and
(49:39):
the detail is so nice. And I think, I think you're
right in the same thing where like you take a photo and you
are revealed something like coming back to an image, you're
suddenly like, Oh my God. Wait, I know this character.
I've. I've seen this before.
I really enjoyed that, Yeah. OK, I see what you mean.
(50:01):
That's interesting. Didn't happen to me at all.
So the materials used are Indianink, I think pencil, acrylic,
and also airbrushing. And one of the things that
fascinated me, I really loved his self-portrait because right,
(50:22):
that image is incredible. With the chains on the face.
With the chains on the face. So from his forehead emerges
this necklace with these and from the necklace then downward
you have these arms that that they're a part of the necklace,
like a sort of a pendant. And his face is floating.
(50:49):
And that's because he uses airbrushing on drawings.
Like I think it's because he goes beyond what you would you
go do with the airbrushing. He puts an extra layer and then
another layer and then suddenly,or maybe not enough, I don't
know exactly what the technique is, but it gives it a sort of a
(51:09):
hue of blurriness and volume. And then suddenly the face pops
out and it's a very human uniqueface.
And at the same time it looks like a character in a funfair.
Because the the also the textureof the airbrushing makes you
(51:30):
think of things painted on image, imagery painted on stuff,
objects in the street, for advertising or for whatever.
It's so hybrid. It's such a strange image and at
the same time you can't stop looking at it.
It's so vivid and so present. Haunting.
(51:53):
Yeah, in a way it's it's like a very heavy smoke.
Yeah, it feels like a mix, this these different influences In
the one drawing, you'll have something like a Mario character
and then you'll have the, you know, old dripping candle on top
of a piece of wood stuck to a wall at it.
(52:18):
It felt like a a a really beautiful way of of showcasing
this all of his multitudes, but through different styles of of
game and I wonder memory maybe as well.
Yeah, and also it made me think of heavy metal imagery as well.
(52:38):
And there's this reference to 2021, this project where he
made-up this story. Oh, it's actually isn't made-up.
Apparently that's something thathappened to him.
He got into a fight in a heavy metal concert and it made me
think a lot about and I thought he was much younger, know that
(52:59):
he's old, but I thought he was maybe in his early 30s.
And I was thinking how, how doeshe have these references?
Was he listening to heavy metal?Because I associated so much
with my generation and the musicI was listening to when I was
younger. So again, it's this wealth of
(53:20):
passions that he has, they are not particularly connected to
his. I mean, he's not contained by
his generational, the typical products of his generation,
let's say. That's also one of the things I
really loved about him, that he connects to things that are very
(53:43):
that come from very different times and very different
cultures and that makes you connect so specifically with
him. I loved his drawings, which are
just on Indian ink on paper because of course it's drawing
and I love drawing that takes you to other animation, to other
(54:04):
languages and other materials. But I also love Indian ink
drawing. I love that.
And I love that sequence where he there's a lot of text and
apparently he says that those sentences that come to him,
they're just kind of go in thereand they're just isolated
thoughts. And also I love that in some
(54:27):
drawings that are very big and with lots of color in the style
that is more like comics characters that are finished and
that are more that come togetherin a more packaged way, let's
say. And suddenly you have a sentence
with Biropen. Yeah, I was thinking that too.
(54:50):
And like a a little pencil phrase.
Yeah. There's this very this, this
atmosphere that he creates that is so inviting in the sense of,
you know, come and see this, this world that I want to share
with you. But also in such like a it does
(55:11):
the fantastical aspect, but alsothe very homely aspect, because
the whole time that you are seeing the exhibition, you can
hear in the background the rap that he's rapping.
Yes, that that he's in bed and that.
Yeah. And he's, you know, like it just
to me is so reminiscent of, you know, I will maybe be doing my
own thing with friends or at home and my brothers are in the
(55:34):
other room doing a rap together or sharing a song and messing
around. And it just feels like you're in
someone's home and someone's just in the other room messing
around or rapping with a friend.And and it is, yeah.
It, it, it, it, it really puts you at at ease and, and, and,
(55:57):
and in this humor, but yet you are surrounded by something that
also feels so intimate. And I wanted to talk about the
writing as well because that's another moment that I had with
the with the song, because the other lyric of Milo's song is,
he says in this loop, people of color coloring, people of color
(56:21):
coloring. Coloring.
And and then I I have this song stuck in my head and then I'm
going through the drawings and in one of them he writes over
and over again in a loop. It changes a bit, but it's
pretty much just him saying I have some urgent coloring in to
do. Yes.
And in all of those things of those series, the drawings are
(56:44):
not colored in. And so it's this kind of like
refusal of this, the way that they are kind of forced to
identify, forced to have to talkabout their, the, the, the, the,
the, the colour of their skin. And at the same time, he, he is
(57:05):
colouring in and, and, and kind of showing us all of these,
well, the different aspects of his insides and, and also the,
the colouring in, you know, I have some urgent colouring in to
do. Made me think of because
colouring in is something that she say a lot with children.
We're going to do some colouring.
We're going to colour inside thelines and sometimes, you know,
(57:29):
because he's drawing cartoons and how that's still something I
think that he's viewed as a child style of drawing and not
such a serious high form of art.And it just spoke to me in so
many ways. And it was such a coincidence
that it just was playing in my mind so much and again, made me
(57:50):
think of that kid that I worked with that to me was doing such
important art and but it just was seen as kind of childish and
not so important. So this thing, if I have some
urgent coloring in to do, it feels like almost like a joke,
like because like, like it's noturgent, but it is.
(58:11):
And yeah. It felt like reading a really
accessible comics book because there's a lot of stories, so you
go into the exhibition and you learn a lot about a person and
their musings, their obsessions,their fears, the monsters that
(58:33):
live with them. It made me think of Goya.
It made me think of really traditional classical references
for some reason, because it's quite dark.
We keep talking about humor, butthere's a lot of darkness in
there, like lots of comics do and lots of these worlds.
They talk a lot about attacks. They talk a lot about, like you
(58:58):
say, pushing you into your own identity, but it is your own
identity. But you don't see yourself like
that. You're made of multiplicities
and it almost makes you feel like you're entering into
someone's world who's also telling you.
Yeah. I mean, you can go through me
(59:18):
and through this inner world from through so many aspects,
and none of them are acceptable because maybe I was prejudiced
also in thinking he was younger because of this world's building
that he does, which connotes as childish.
And my mind maybe went there anddid the thing that he's telling
(59:38):
us we do, which is presume a lotof things about someone because
of what they're talking about. So this claim to be very
specific, but at the same time not be reduced to that
specificity is so present in in in the show.
It's. Yeah, it's really.
(01:00:01):
Yeah, there's a lot to read and at the same time you don't have
to. There's also that freedom
because sometimes one of the things that I was thinking is
maybe a not professional was thinking you.
I I love a thing about drawing, which is that most of the time
it is supposed to be to end up in a book.
And here is the other way around.
(01:00:21):
It's these drawings that are extracted from those worlds
suddenly are in the exhibition space.
But it doesn't make for a difficult exhibition experience
because you can pick and choose.It's like a game of multiple
choice. You can take the alleyway or you
can kill that character or you can maybe run away from the
(01:00:42):
character. And there's there's this is just
one room, but it felt like you had a lot of dimensions to the
exhibition and even the space. Actually, we at you end up
seeing the space in a completelydifferent way.
And not one time that I think, oh, this is a single room.
You know, there was sometimes I do when I go to the drawing
(01:01:02):
room, I think, oh, it's A and that ceilings are very high and
it's a, it's a, it's a very specific kind of space.
But no, it was. It felt very like little doors
and little spaces that you go. Into it's still very quest like
in that sense. I think also how some of the
illustrations are from A room, literally and then the video is
(01:01:26):
from his bedroom. It's like makes the whole space
expansive because you're it's from within the mind.
So your your imagination is expanding with it and you're
making all of these connections to traditional artists and like
medieval quests and video games.That was a a joy to experience
(01:01:48):
on well. Thank you so much.
Thank you for doing this and thank you for listening.
Thank you for sticking with us. We are so very happy to have
shared this exhibition with you.If you can visit it, go.
It's there for a while still until May if I'm not mistaken.
(01:02:08):
And if you can't, there is therewill be images in the Instagram
account of exhibitionist as you can watch the video.
There's images there if you're having just a Sonic experience
with us. And obviously there's the
drawing room website that you can go to and also Javeri
(01:02:29):
Contemporary, which is the artists gallery that has a lot
of images of his work. So thank you so much for
sticking with us and until next time, have a great, great day.
Bye bye, take care. Thank you.
Bye.
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