October 2, 2025 • 57 mins
My Art Tools is a new segment where I ask artists about their preferred materials, their instruments of choice, where and when they like to use them. Artists think with their hands. Following their gestures and learning about their techniques tells us a lot about following one’s vision, about the pleasures of trusting an instinct, and the resilience it takes to work creatively.
I ask artists a simple question. In an endearingly geeky manner, the answers reveal fantastic methods and unimaginable stories. A big plus: hilarious little incidents and big misadventures that lead to a breakthrough, or a new possibility.
Oh, the question? “What tool do your swear by to make your art?”
This focus brings to the surface the importance of things we don’t mention, but also the mechanics of the mind, I’m told. The answers are… unexpected.
You'll be as surprised as I was to see what Marina Roca Díe and Anouk Mercier chose as their weapon of choice, you know, the thing to make the stuff.
What you get from this episode: Have you ever thought about the stuff art is made of? Wondered how artists make what you see in museums and galleries? How they train their hand, eye, body? Artmaking revelations, art techniques, lessons in resilience, art philosophies, ethical questions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello, I'm Joanna Pionevis, creator and host of exhibition
esters and this is the first episode of the segment My Art
Tools, where I take you to two artists studios by asking a
simple question which unexpectedly reveals quite a few
secrets and stories from the creative source itself.
(00:23):
And the sources in question are Anuk Mercier, an artist who is
now based in France, but has lived many years in the UK and
still teaches at UE Bristol. And Marina Rocardier, who is
based in Madrid and has currently, at the time of
recording and release of the episodes of the 3rd of October
(00:44):
2025, an exhibition at the El Chico Gallery in her hometown,
which we mentioned during the episode because the artists were
interviewed in their studios andshow a few things to the camera.
This may be an episode you mightwant to watch on Spotify or
YouTube, but the audio experience works too.
(01:07):
If that's what you prefer, that's not a problem.
If you want to know more about the artists, I would recommend
going on Instagram and followingexhibition esters, or even
better, signing up to the newsletter to learn more about
them and also to get the links and little gems that didn't make
it to the episode there. For those who may not know, the
(01:30):
exhibition Esters files are partof my page Joanna Pierre Nevis
on Sub Stack. And I don't send informative
newsletters because I really don't enjoy that.
And if I fill in your inbox and spend time promoting each
episode, it has to be for a better cause.
(01:50):
So by signing up, you get to access a different kind of
information. And also all of my texts and a
lot of other posts on Sub Stack that are not newsletters.
I don't have anything under a paywall and I'd love to keep it
that way. So donations are appreciated
either through the website, exhibitionistpodcast.com or Sub
(02:13):
Stack, or even Buy me a coffee. All those links are in the
show's notes. Or if you go to Sub Stack,
obviously you have the subscription button function at
the top of the screen. I think you'll find it.
Anyway, let's move on to the episode.
Allow me to plead my case. What if I told you that the
(02:40):
tools used by artists are absolutely fascinating and may
hold the key to an understandingof their work from within?
We create myths in art, right, Based on the images and
documents we have at hand. Pollock with the drip paintings,
for instance. But what if we looked closely at
(03:02):
other practices and gestures? What if we paid attention?
And also, what if you had someone who would bring these
informations to you? And that's what I'm here for.
Artists use unexpected tools or familiar ones in unexpected
ways. I'm not looking for the
spectacular here, although it might happen, but for the
(03:24):
sensible shift that suddenly opens a panoramic view on a work
of art or a whole body of work. But another thing that led me to
think more intentionally about this topic was an exhibition at
the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford dedicated to Raphael's drawings.
When I went there, I expected tosee a few sketches, and indeed
(03:48):
the exhibition had exquisite works.
But there weren't only sketches or projects.
There were these sorts of screens, or what I now know to
be called cartoons, with holes on the outline of the figures.
And in fact, these cartoons are full size drawings used to
(04:13):
transfer the structure or the composition of the figure,
carefully tested and defined previously through drawing onto
a wall or onto whatever surface the painting is going to be on
by pouncing or tracing. So it means that those little
(04:36):
holes, they were intentional. They were there for a purpose.
The purpose was to then apply powdered charcoal or black chalk
on the drawing so that the little dots would be marked on
the surface to then be painted on.
There was a table there with a display of all the tools that
(05:02):
Raphael used. So when you think of painting,
when you think of drawing, you think of pencil, you think of
graphite, and you think of brushes and paints.
And what the display included were colored chalks and charcoal
metal points, which are rods of metal alloys, so gold, silver,
copper or leads and leads that left microscopic particles on
(05:27):
paper. And so the colour of the line
would depend on the composition of the rod, pen and ink.
He used the blind stylus, which was used to sort of try out
different shapes without markingthe paper and the compass, so a
double pointed compass. So you can see there was a lot
(05:49):
of precision. None of this is in the catalog,
which I promptly bought because I really wanted to study that.
And in my research for the episode, I noticed that only two
articles mention in passing thisdisplay of tools in the
exhibition, enumerating what I just told you and not what I
(06:13):
have on my Instagram, because I took a picture of that display
and I looked it up. Now this was in 2017.
And then the picture I took, there's Reed pen and a fine
brush. So of course this is not to
criticize anyone here, but I do feel that we look at art more
(06:38):
like historians and less like Tekken.
Technologically savvy people with curious minds and who
actually know how to handle stuff and can very quickly put
ourselves in the minds of the people who are creating.
Historians are obsessed with timelines and influences, which
is funny to me, knowing how muchartists lie about dates.
(07:02):
So the Renaissance after all. When I left that exhibition, I
thought associates imagination with science, chemistry with
observation. But mostly, how silly.
The myth of the artist painting from nothing and also to me at
least, how uninspiring it's. You know, it's as if everything
(07:24):
came from the inside, as if the artist didn't spend countless
times adjusting the material to the imaginations, but also
perhaps the imagination to the material.
The precision of the transfer and the care in using a double
pointed compass shows the importance of the final image,
the painting The Italian Renaissance feels to me more
(07:49):
cinema than free representation.It is more seductive than
inspirational. And it's closer, bear with me,
to the convincing power of deepfakes almost than the
compulsions of surrealism. Especially when you know how the
images are made, you look at them in a completely different
(08:09):
way. So Anuk and I talked precisely
about the playfulness of this dynamic between the tool and the
image, the project, the making, and the outcome, before she told
me what her favorite tool was. Drawing can be anything you have
at hand really. And so, you know, often that is,
(08:33):
you know, just buy her in a piece of paper or pencil, but it
can be other things. You know, you can be out walking
and it might be the soil under foot that you use with your
fingers and mark of recording, even if your favorite tool is a
graphite stick, is that the besttool for the project that you're
working on today? Is it the best tool to translate
the, you know, the object or thescene that you want to record?
(08:55):
So I would say in terms of teaching, actually my approach
is the opposite to having a favorite tool.
Sometimes you have an idea and that is the foremost, you know,
that's the first thing, that's the starting point.
And then the tool you, you know,is there to support the idea and
to make it come to life. But sometimes a tool will
(09:17):
inspire an idea or will drive you towards a certain direction,
which is why, again, if we talk in terms of teaching, but also
applied to the studio practice playing is so important.
Because if you only rely on ideas and you know, using tools
to to make those ideas come true, you might actually miss
(09:40):
out on something that is experimental that you wouldn't
have planned. That really only stems from
playing practice. It shows my fountain pain.
And I think it's because it's very difficult to find the right
one. There are thousands of them and
it's a pretty expensive material, expensive tool.
(10:01):
My husband, he gave it to me from a trip.
He, well, I used to live in Berlin and then from a trip he
did in Madrid, he went to the flea market here.
And if you search for it, you will find this like stands with
like really vintage boxes of thousands of these.
(10:24):
And they are pretty, pretty cheap for what you can pay in
the store. So he he was able to buy, I
don't know, 5 or 6 for me to trythem.
And this is my favorite 1. So first of all, the looks, it's
like a steelo pen, like black. It's plastic.
Actually, I think it's like embedded like it's metal
(10:48):
embedded into the plastic, whichis a bit strange, you know, but
it gives it like this look like this vintage look.
So I I really like this one because of the strength of the
point, you know, like sometimes you have to yeah, the tip
sometimes bench for calligraphy are too hard for drawing.
(11:09):
Like you can feel like the paperis scratching, you know, like
like this feeling and that I don't like.
I like it to have some flexibility in the tip.
While ink is not so important for Marina, Anuk's choice is
surprising as it is as much a tool as it is a material, but it
(11:30):
has another component to it. Raphael could not have used it.
As opposed to marinas fountain pen, which is very very close to
the Renaissance materials, Anuk's choice of tool, which is
also in some ways a material, iscompletely dependent upon 20th
(11:54):
century technology of the machine.
When you when you asked me this question, I thought immediately
about toner. I always thought that it was
just carbon powder, which is what it is.
But yesterday, because I was like, I'd better double check
that I'm right about this, I found out that it's actually
these tiny particles of plastic coated in carbon powder.
(12:18):
So I did not know that. So basically this we're talking
about toner. So this is, you know, the toner,
Carter, is that all of us have in in, you know, in used at some
point. They're in most photocopiers.
If you've been to what really any type of education, they are
basically these little plastic particles coated in carbon
(12:40):
powder that are then applied to paper using laser technology and
there's an electric charge involved as well.
And then it's burnt onto the paper.
So the like the plastic particles melt and literally,
you know, sort of cement the carbon powder onto the paper.
(13:03):
So tono is literally those that carbon dust for many, many years
I have used it and I never referenced it.
So, you know, when people ask you, you know, whatever to list
the materials of an artwork. For years, toner did not
feature. I would just say acetone
transfer, which is a transfer method that I used with acetone.
(13:27):
And basically what happens in this transfer technique is that
I use a toner photocopier. I apply the acetone to the back
of the photocopy. The acetone repels the carbon
powder and reprints it. So it transfers it back onto
another piece of paper. So essentially it takes that
(13:50):
carbon dust that's all over my my initial photocopy and it
repels it and pushes the little particles onto the next piece of
paper. Everything started from having
an idea from, you know, 18th century landscapes and etchings
in particular, being my, you know, predominant source of
inspiration, let's say, and wanting to appropriate those
(14:14):
references into my work. I remember this does not happen
anymore because of health and safety.
But when I was an art student onmy foundation course, one way of
introducing students very quickly to the notions of
printmaking was to do acetone transfers.
So I remembered that, you know, years ago, Foundation, I had
tried this technique. I loved how immediate it was.
(14:35):
You've got the photocopy, you transfer it and you know, 2
seconds later you have your transfers.
But it really came from, I had an image, I needed to transfer
it. How do I do it?
Go to the photocopy machine, photocopy, transfer and move on.
And I think there's also something to do with photocopies
are so familiar to all of us. They were very unprecious.
(14:58):
We're not that far from the intricate processes that Raphael
and other artists of the Renaissance used to work on
their shapes, to copy them, to transfer them onto drawings,
from drawings and then to the final piece.
We're not that far away from a sort of a mechanic handling of
(15:22):
the shape through a very, very trained hand.
The artists of the Renaissance used mechanical copy of drawings
that they were satisfied with, and why waste time making them
over and over again? And why not keep them?
(15:43):
And perhaps once they're transferred on to the final
piece, maybe change them a little bit.
And something to note as well isthat that technique, you know,
the pouncing technique, breakinglittle holes on an outline was
used for tapestries, for example, to reproduce patterns
(16:05):
of tapestries and other crafts. So there is also.
This tension in the technique that is used to make.
What we call, perhaps with a sense of grandeur, masterpieces.
So in some ways it's really interesting to use 20th century
tools in order to look at what was done in the past, play the
(16:29):
anachronic game, and try to assess what we try to obtain
through these tools that seem sodistant and yet kind of produce
the same thing, which is to extract images that already
exist in order to make new ones.And so that really affects the
(16:53):
idea we have of creation and of image making from a an artistic
point of view, not from an entertainment point of view or
from from a publicity and advertisement point of view, but
really this area, this field of intense creativity, imagination,
(17:13):
but also science and research and purpose and intentional
experimentation. When looking at the work of both
artists, you would not imagine the technical challenges that
they both have, nor the physicalengagement with the process.
(17:34):
My first kind of, you know, Commission, which was to create
an artwork for Bristol Museum. I basically, you know, I
proposed my whole idea for the Commission, which would
basically be to photocopy imagesfrom their collections to bring
their collection back to life through a new artwork, which is,
(17:58):
you know, a, a way of working which I adore, like plunging
into history and looking at collection and, and, and really
finding ways for the, you know, contemporary audiences to re
engage with those, you know, artworks and artists and
narratives. So, you know, it was really
exciting for me to get an opportunity to work with a
(18:18):
museum on this so I could pitch to my idea.
And everyone agreed, Move forward was very excited.
And at the time, even though I graduated, I did all my
photocopying at the UE library. So I would sneak back in, even
though I wasn't really allowed to, and I would photocopy, you
(18:39):
know, and yes, apologies to UE if they're listening to this,
this, I guess, you know, it sounds kind of crazy, but to me,
an hour and a half of photocopying images is
comparable to a painter going toan art shop and buying tubs of
painting. It was my primary source
material, right? And you can still see behind me.
(19:00):
This is how I do. So I do lots of photocopies.
Then I put them up on the wall. So I see the images and then
I'll select areas of them, cut them out and then transfer them.
And on this occasion, which feltto me like the most important
time, you know, finally had a Commission for a museum, I got
to the library, did all my photocopying, go back to the
studio, sat down, started to make and it didn't work.
(19:25):
It just didn't work. So the photocopies that I had
made, I did everything as usual,used the acetone and nothing
happened. So obviously utter panic.
And then I spent a day going around Bristol in all different
shops doing different photocopies to see if it was the
photocopier that was different. And all of, you know, just tried
(19:49):
lots of different things and I, I just couldn't make it work
anymore. I ended up actually contacting
the photocopying machine producers, I can't remember who
it was. And a very helpful person
explained to me. That it's because the technology
was advancing and they were now burning the toner and so burning
(20:12):
the carbon powder at much highertemperatures onto the paper,
which to them was great because I don't know if you remember
this from holding for copious you used to have black fingers
afterwards and that was the toner powder coming off on your
hands. So for them, increasing the
temperature meant there was no more staining of fingers, but it
(20:33):
also more durable, you know, just better quality all around.
So basically he said to me, you know, we're going around
replacing all of the photocopiers so that now they
burn at much high temperature. So your technique isn't going to
work anymore. The only way to resolve this is
that I then did lots of research, spoke to the guys at,
(20:54):
you know, the various printer companies, printer
manufacturers, and identified a model that still use toner at
the temperature I needed. And I bought the photocopier and
it's in my studio and I still have it today.
And they still luckily make those toner cartridges further
for that photocopier. All this to say, I am so not a
(21:17):
geeky person. This makes me sound like, you
know, I'm really into understanding technology and
actually I'm really not that kind of person.
But the technology I was using has forced me to become a bit of
a photocopier geek and a toner geek.
And from that day on, I started listing toner as a medium
(21:38):
because I was like, it's a very real thing.
Drawing is a much more complex affair when it comes to tools,
but also the body, or perhaps I should say when it comes to the
relation between the body and whatever is used to make the
image or the final artwork. I have a lot of anxiety with
(21:59):
with my hands, you know, like I am all the time like needing to
do something. Like if I'm in a bar, I'm like
squeezing a little napkin or like a piece of paper or like
doing something while I talk. And yeah, and it's very common
that I am touching the lid whileI'm drawing.
(22:20):
So for me, drawing is something of like, it's an activity
related with this, right? Drawing in a way, there are no
mistakes. But at the beginning when you
Start learning, there's a lot ofmistakes, you know, so you learn
to spot them and to really realize if you want to keep them
or not, you know, and in a ways like beforehand.
(22:42):
So I would say a mistake in a drawing done now for me would be
that is like out of composition for like for me, composition is
like, is my, is my problem, You know, because I think, yeah, I,
I tend to be very expansive. And so I, I approach too much to
(23:06):
the borders. Sometimes I, I don't leave space
to continue, you know, like I just like, I expand and expand.
I would need more paper, but then like, but the paper is
limited. That's like what constitutes
A-frame. Like you have to assume the
frame before you start. It's a rule.
It's a rule from the substance of the material you're using.
(23:30):
It's like like you cannot assumean infinite frame like an
infinite paper. Like you have to assume the
borders of the paper because then at some point you get out
of the paper, you know, like you're painting on the table at
some point. So it's like it's a given, I
think. And, but it's more like the
(23:53):
relationship with the thing I'm drawing.
Like for example, if I'm planning to draw a figure in a
landscape and then I start to, with the fountain pain, I start
from, I don't know the head of the figure.
Normally I do it too big, then the landscape is not fitting in.
That's my problem. I would need more paper around
(24:16):
and then I would expand the drawing and then I would add
more paper around and spend the drawing and more paper.
And then it's like it's impossible.
Like no, no, you have to containit.
Like it's important. The frame is the most important,
you know, And with drawing, I think it's more this fact is
very obvious in the sense that for me, a drawing is something
(24:40):
like the paper is just a support.
But you could actually remove that support and put a black one
or a yellow one and another any other color, any other coloring
of paper. And you could still rise up the
drawing like as if it was like awire, you know, in I want a
(25:01):
void. But it's also like it's a, it's
a way of seeing, you know, like with your eyes.
It's a way of using your eyes while you're drawing.
I think it's a yeah, Yeah. Like drawing has that like this
flattening of reality and then you the paper is assumed.
But it could be any other paper or any other material, or it
(25:21):
could be a wall, or it could be directly the frame, and then you
draw on a board of the frame. I'm a painter.
I'm a Flat Earth, you know, likethe frame is the paint is the
painting. Damn it.
No, of course I'm joking, but it's for me the painting is a
(25:49):
frame actually. That's like the frame of
reference, like on the format. That's also why my exhibition
now that is like an installationinstead of just white cube and
paintings on top. Because in a way I think every
painter or every draft man needsto assume the frame, but this
(26:11):
also desire to get out of the frame.
And so for me, like the effect of the white cube on on
paintings in a painting exhibition is the same as the
effect of the paper on a drawing.
It's just the support. And you assume it, you don't
think about it. And it could be another 1 you
could change, exchange it for another one, you know.
(26:36):
So what I'm doing is like covering the whole all walls and
like braking on the white cube. Yeah.
And then I'm putting the paintings on top of that.
It felt constrained and smothering, this need to conform
to a size of a AER and the shapeof the canvas, until I
(26:57):
understood that it is part of the game.
It's like a game of cards whose combinations are incredibly vast
but contained by the rules of a game, which reduces the
possibilities but makes it far more enjoyable because it allows
you to have an effect on the outcome and also to let the
outcome effects you. Marina's exhibition at the El
(27:22):
Chico Gallery in Madrid is an all over installation where the
walls are completely covered with a painting with brown tree
trunks and a deep dark blue sky on one side and on the other a
brown red crepuscular atmosphereas if going from the beginning
to the end of the day. The floor is also painted in a
(27:45):
deep but sort of luminous blue with darker lines like rings in
a body of water, and there are also paintings on the floor.
Marina mentioned the reference to the history and fictional
narratives that we carry. But working from prints and
somehow stealing them, what impact does her technique and
(28:07):
Nuke's technique have on the past, how we see it and current
stories? What is drawing, then, if it is
so vast a field that it extends to engraving, photocopying,
performing a sort of discipline to actually see through the
(28:28):
hand? It's like a slow thinking
drawings, like thinking very slow.
You know, like, you wander around a page and sometimes,
like, for the kind of drawing that I do, which is like
expressionist, expressionist, material expressionist drawing,
sometimes people tend to believethat it's like because it's
(28:50):
gestural, it means it's fast, but it's not fast necessarily.
You know, why Fountain pain. Actually, yeah.
Maybe it has to do with some kind of tradition where you
learn. I don't know, but you know what
I mean. Yeah.
So The thing is that when I learn how to draw, it was
important that you couldn't correct the drones with this.
(29:14):
Like, you cannot erase it and make it back right again, you
know what I mean? So you could learn what was
wrong about the drawing. And so it has something very
emancipatory for me in this sense of like once the line is
done, it's done. That's it.
(29:35):
There's no correction. And it's very beautiful in the
sense of a practice is a kind ofperformative aspect.
Like once it's done, it's done. So that's it.
So you commit to the line and that's beautiful.
And then sometimes they are shitty drawings, you know,
that's also fine. Like you don't need to share
(29:58):
them all. You don't need.
Like, you can destroy them, that's fine.
Just calmly destroy them. I destroyed many drawings.
I had many, many bad ideas, you know, that didn't work.
I'm curious about the situationswhere the tools used come to us
unexpectedly and enter the studio or a particular project,
(30:20):
and this at the most unexpected of times.
My this is before we had children and Max was not my
husband, he was my partner. But he said to me you're working
too much, I have to take you away for a weekend to Wales.
And honestly it was a very busy time and I was like very
(30:40):
reluctant to go. And I was like, oh, I just want
to be in my studio. So he took me to this tiny
village in Wales, can't rememberwhat it's called.
There was nothing there. And I entered this holiday, sell
imposed holiday quite reluctantly to be honest with
you. But anyway, when we were there
walking in this tiny town, therewas this tiny shop cafe thing
and they had this tiny section with like 2 shelves and on there
(31:03):
with some art materials. And you know, I looked of course
and I found this, this pen whichwas really like a felt it brush
felt it. But this beautiful pen that came
from Japan, I have no idea why this tiny shop in Wales was
selling this pen. No idea.
Anyway, I picked it up and spentthis little weekend drawing in
(31:26):
my sketchbook. And that went on to me starting
drawing with ink and experimenting with different
brushes. And I guess that's an example of
a time where it was really an object of material that led, you
know, to ideas within my practice and in a completely
unexpected, unlooked for kind ofway.
(31:48):
And I think the lesson I learnedfrom that holiday was that it's
actually good to get out becausesometimes, you know, you're
exposed to influences you would never have expected, or you
encounter material you've never,you know, encountered before.
Well The thing is I did still end up drawing all weekends.
The joy of finding a new thing to work with is also the joy of
developing a new project, which is precisely what happened with
(32:13):
Marina. You can think about a drawing
that then you can exhibit or sell or just put it hanging
some, somewhere or like a drawing as an object.
And you can think of drawing as a as a, a thought to arrive to
something else. So like I've been, I've done
(32:37):
thousands and thousands of drawings in my life.
Bible is called a Bible for Lilith.
I can show you, but I have to, Ihave to go for it.
Just give me a SEC. It's very exciting to show the
Bible because I it's a very difficult object to show,
(33:01):
actually to exhibit, because howcan you exhibit this?
But the the thing with this object that it started as a
mistake, as a failure in a way. Like my boyfriend said, it would
be great to have a sketchbook that pages are two things so I
(33:22):
can trace like I can see the next page.
So I thought, ah, for his birthday, I'm going to find like
this Bible paper that is so thin.
I'm going to find a book that isblank paper, but it's like this
Bible paper. So we can see what he has drawn
(33:43):
on the the prior drawing, you know, so you can see through.
And so I bought it for him as a present.
And then it was like super long because it came from China.
And by the time he received the present, he didn't remember this
idea anymore. So where he got it, he was like
(34:03):
a Bible. What the fuck are you giving
that? Like why?
You know, it's like, and then hewas like so stupid because he
was coming from China. It got stopped at customs.
So then I we had to like cross the whole Berlin to pick this
shit up and then when he opened it like, Oh my present finally,
(34:25):
like, I don't know like 2 monthsdelay of his birthday or
whatever, then he was like a pipe.
Why? You know, so it's just like, OK,
forget the so stupid, stupid, very stupid.
Like it turned completely. Ridiculous.
This that was for you. It was not fair.
(34:46):
Yeah, and aware of it. I I bought it for myself.
But anyways, I kept it in any case, anyways, that doesn't
matter. What matters is that I get it.
And it's like almost 500 drawings.
Yeah. So I spent a couple of years
(35:09):
doing this, you know, it has like, a golden spine, you know,
all these little thingies. It's a real Bible, you know.
And then I started, OK, I'm going to do some erotic drawings
here because, like, ha, ha, I'm very radical.
Whatever. And then at some point you
(35:30):
realize that you have to commit or you don't continue, you know,
but like at some point you decide if you are going to
really do 500 drawings or reallyno.
And then you stop now. But you know, but like to leave
it half is shit. So just like when did you commit
it or not? And I did, I committed.
(35:53):
Yeah. And so.
Yeah. So The thing is that like it
started, you know, you can see abit of development.
OK, So Lilith is like the first woman of the Bible.
So in the Bible, like there is asentence at the beginning of the
Genesis saying God grabs I, I don't know, I'm very phrasing,
(36:14):
of course, but God grab a piece of lamp, a lamp of clay and then
cut it in half. And then he was like creating
woman and a man. Because this is like pre
biblical texts, like Lily, this pre biblical texts.
So in like this, like versions, like Jewish versions of the
(36:36):
Genesis, some versions of the Bible kept this sentence, this
like very mysterious sentence, but it's like God created the
human bites image and look or something like that.
Female and male, he created them.
And then, yeah. So that that was the first idea
(36:58):
was like grab a lamp of clay, you cut it in half, you have a
woman and you have man. And then this man was Saddam,
this woman was Lilith, and Lilith was a rebel and she
wanted to fuck with on top. You know, it's that's what it
(37:21):
says in the stories to lead sex activity.
And Adam wanted to have a missionary position like a
regular. He wanted to be on top.
She wanted to be on top too. So they they have a fight of
power because Adam wants her to be a bit minor and then she
(37:42):
wants to be equal. So she runs away from heaven,
you know, from paradise, which is very funny.
It's a funny thing. Like she runs away from
paradise. Wasn't it the the best place to
be? It was like the best place to
be. No, she didn't want to be there.
Exactly. And so she runs away and she
(38:06):
goes to the Red Sea, and then she she starts to live there and
there's like a bunch of demons and she fucks them all.
And then she has tons of babies.They say.
Like, she has 100 babies a day. That's what it says in the
story. Yeah, she has something.
(38:30):
And so. So Adam gets bored and he tries
to confraternize with animals. That's what it says.
Really. I'm not with animals, with the
animals around to see if he can like get along and he of course,
he cannot find the comfort. And so he asked God to bring her
(38:51):
back. God sends for angels, I think,
to bring her back and then just go to to the Red Sea to bring
Lily back. She's super busy.
She moved on. She doesn't give a fuck about
Adam anymore. And then the the angels come to
pick her up and she's like, fuckyou.
I'm not going, you know, I'm staying here.
(39:14):
So the the story says that the angels, they as a revenge, they
kill all her kids. And then because God cannot find
a solution for Lily to come backto the paradise, then she like
he thinks that OK, then let's make a woman but out of your
(39:37):
body. So it's a bit of a minor from
the birth. And then he creates Eva.
Time and dedication to a projectcome with the type of final
outcome 1 ends up creating. But if we invert this logic, it
may as well be that Marina foundthe state of completion which
could apply to such a no mistakekind of work.
(40:01):
On the other hand, her interest in the erotic, the body and sex
also found a place where it could exist.
I feel the responsibility of, yeah, I think it, I think art
can be very ethical or unethicalbecause sex is a very, very
(40:21):
delicate subject indeed, becauseit's also like it can be very
aggressive for many, many people.
And you are making it visible and it's something that is
supposed to be in the intimate sphere, right?
And so, but then at the same time, because it's in the
(40:42):
intimate sphere, like for many decades it hasn't been talked
about. And then that has led many
people to dangerous situations because of lack of sex
education. But then at the same time, if
you're drawing it, you are like making it visible for everyone
to see. And that's very, it's so So
(41:03):
yeah, I'm responsible for that. And I understand too, you know,
like it can be highly pleasurable and highly dangerous
for many people. And at the same time also, you
know, like some like there is some connection between pleasure
and pain. I think that's interesting.
But then at the same time, I also understand that there are
(41:24):
some channels where you shouldn't be able to show sex
because you, you know, I don't want to be scrolling down
Instagram and then all of a sudden find an addiction like
boom on like a porno image. I don't want that either, you
know, like it has to be, it's very aggressive, you know, like
I'm not in the mood. Like why you're not asking about
(41:46):
it? Time for a short break to let
you into the exhibitionist studio.
Look around you. There is a computer, a good mic,
the software in the computer, which is a sort of virtual space
through which you and I meet with a time and space delay.
(42:10):
Then there are my books and two perfectly round Flintstones.
All the magic happens here. I've been talking to a
university whose students need placements and I could use some
assistance with production and research while also mentoring
(42:30):
the future professionals of the field.
But for that I have to pay them.And that's where you come in.
Do you know how much a membership costs?
A mere £25 a year. Which means that you pay £2 a
month, 25 lbs for a whole year when you buy a catalog.
(42:56):
That's the average price for onesingle book with two texts.
If you become a member of Exhibition Esters through a
platform called Sub Stack, you not only get to support
Exhibition Esters, but you also receive on average about 18 more
texts minimum that I will have written about many, many, many
(43:21):
fascinating topics of contemporary arts, philosophy of
art, and many other subjects. There's a little bonus that I
added, which is getting to ask me questions.
I'm very, very happy to do the research for you or to dig into
my little well of knowledge and put the information out there
(43:43):
for you. I can name you or you can be
anonymous, so you get to put me to work as long as the questions
and the prompts you give me within my abilities and the
research material available to me.
Otherwise, you can go to donor books in the description notes.
(44:04):
You can just donate one time, very, very small amounts.
That's what I do with Wikipedia once in a while.
I put some money in there because I use it almost daily
and I want to reward people who nourish me.
Thank you for spending some timewith me here in my studio.
Thank you for considering this decent proposal.
(44:28):
On with the episode. This question of control,
controlling the space where images are, who sees them and
where, reverts back also to the freedom of creating and the
discipline of release and tension in creative processes.
Imagination must flow, but technique must shape it,
(44:49):
although not too much. Ideas must preside, but perhaps
not on the conscious level. Stories are present, but are
they at the start or at the end of the final outcome?
If you put some acetone onto a photocopier and you push it
around, you start seeing the pigments moving like dust.
(45:11):
So you can make little piles of dust or move it around.
And what I love about that is that it meets at that point
graphite, which is the other thing that I use and the other
tool that I use. And it means especially now
recently favorite castle has I've got them here, has created
(45:35):
these pit graphite mats so that they're making graphite pencils
now that don't reflect. So if you color with them,
they're very, very matte. My pencil a choice.
But these so this is very reflective.
This is not and basically these new pencils with toner carbon
powder, It's, it looks and feelslike the same thing and now I
(45:59):
can blend them seamlessly. It's kind of like taking my work
in a slightly different, well, little bit of a different
direction because I can now rework photocopies and images
and you can't tell that I've reworked them because the
graphite, this graphite is very much like the carbon powder.
Part of why I find this process interesting because I am
(46:21):
actually taking, you know, prints mainly etchings really as
a reap. So basically reproduction on so
many levels. There is the original etching
that has been reproduced itself several times, usually to, you
know, to make additions. And then they have been
reproduced in art books. I have the arcs.
(46:44):
I then reproduce the reproductions of the
reproductions through a photocopier.
And what I'm interested in as well is the dilution of the
image through that process of reproduction.
And when you reproduce images, you know, in the final stages of
my stage on a photocopier, it isfurther diluted because
(47:05):
actually, you know, the photocopies transfer more or
less well. So some of them get distressed
or, you know, slightly damaged. But also, this is where the
acetone part is interesting because depending on many
factors, the acetone moves like transfers the toner, more or
(47:27):
less. So I had another moment of like,
oh, my goodness, it's not working.
Why? Because so I, I, you know, I
have moved to France partly because I have now a house with
a big barn that's going to be a great studio and we're working
on it. But for now it's very much an
empty barn with no heating. And, and last winter, you know,
me, I was like out there with my, you know, duffel coat making
(47:50):
and my transfers were not working.
And I was like, no, why are theynot working?
Yeah, I know, not this again. And in the end I realized I came
to the conclusion after trying lots of different things that it
was actually that it was the acetone that's at a lower
(48:10):
temperature, basically under 10°acetone doesn't really work as
well. So the toner to transfer the
acetone needs to work be strong and it needs to be more than
10°, so. So all this to say that you know
when I am transferring the photocopies the image gets
altered and factors like the temperature on the day, the you
(48:33):
know how, how diluted or not theacetone is, what brush I use as
well, how hard I press. All of these things influence
the transfer of the image and toan extent over many years.
Now I control this. So I know if I use this type of
pressure on this type of image, photocopied at this, because you
(48:58):
know, on a photocopier you can alter how light or dark the
photocopy comes out. So I also play with this.
I've also always done very, verynearly hyper realistic graphite
drawings. So that's all about control, all
about control. This aspect, in contrast, the
fact that I can never thoroughlycontrol, even though I've tried
for years, I never have control over the final transfer, is
(49:22):
actually a huge needing like a relief to me.
It makes the making exciting because I'm going to respond to
the transfer. Sometimes it does something I'd
never anticipated before. And then those marks, the
transfers, which I then draw over, they will inform the
drawing to an extent. So I'm responding to the
unpredictability of the transfer.
(49:44):
And I love that way of working. It's for me, it feels very
liberating. I would say, you know, that half
of my practice is, is too tight.And I think like, you know, when
drawings are too stiff or too ininvertedcom is perfect or
trying, you know, hyper realism.I mean, this is not a criticism
of hyper realism. You know, I need to work that
(50:06):
way because it's partly how I learned to draw.
When I observe something really,really intensely, I understand
it. So for me, it's a necessary
exercise that I really enjoy thethe drawing, you know, really
realistically, but it's extremely tight.
And I always, when I went that way, I'm always thinking, you
(50:29):
know, that's great. But actually you need to loosen
up. You need to let you know, I
always think of art in a scientific way.
You need space for experimentation because it's
when you experiment or you play that things you hadn't thought
about the car or you know, whereyou kind of get into that flow
state, sort of like, you know, things come to you, etcetera.
(50:49):
So all this to say that if tomorrow my photocopier breaks
down and that's it, I know that I would be already and I have
already started looking for another technique, method that
brings that element of unpredictability in in in the
transfer or in the way it works.I think an important part of the
(51:13):
process for me is thinking abouthow, you know, that whole
precious side of art making, especially in Europe, that the
etchings, you know, they're, they're like really laborious
art making techniques. And people thought I should try
etching and I might like it, butI actually didn't because it's
so like tight and, and laborious.
And I think, you know, there wasthis whole thing about these
(51:35):
like master print makers, you know, of the 18th century and
this kind of reverence to print.And I adore those artists.
I adore their prints. But a big part of the way I'm
working now and with a photocopier is being able to be
playful about those references, those images and those
(51:56):
techniques. And I think one of the, the main
things, and I've no answer to this, but that always kind of
results from, from this relationship that I have is
whether people think my work is print or not, because it's not
print in the sense there isn't this, you know, people will say,
but there's not that labor intensive side of it.
So I'm just transferring an image now.
(52:17):
I started referencing the artistwhose work I'm appropriating so
that people know it's a deliberate wanted collaboration.
Not that I'm trying to kind of, you know, and also to bring that
artist, you know, to to new audiences.
I suppose realize that all the reference material that I have,
it's all male artists. And so I've been wanting to use
female print makers. When you are a female printer,
(52:38):
because it's like you are like carrying the weight of all the
tradition made by mail. I try and draw every day, even
after my kids are in bed or, or you know, and having those two
ways of working has allowed me to keep making at all times.
But it was already something I did anyway.
But it's been reinforced by, youknow, having to keep making in
(53:00):
that sense. I think Jordan teaches you to
really see. It's hard to explain to people
what seeing really truly is. But you know, for example, you
know, go and draw water. And then when you look at water,
you will never see it the same way you see it in kind of areas
of light and dark, broken up movement.
And it just adds a lay. I don't know, I feel like I see
(53:22):
the world more intensely. If you study something and you
draw it, you then you know, it'slike on a daily basis, even if
I'm not drawing from observation, when I look at
things, I feel like you know, you're, you're always sort of
deconstructing and trying to understand what you're actually
like seeing. It was fascinating listening to
such different artists with different experiences of
(53:43):
drawing, art making and exhibition spaces.
I'm surprised to see how observational drawing for them
is linked with seeing and how itpervades their day-to-day life.
What I mean by that, it's obviously if you observe and you
draw, it has to do with seeing, but there is a real dynamic
(54:06):
between having drawn and then seeing the world in a completely
different way. I connected a lot with Anuk,
saying that even when she's going about her life, she is
indeed seeing the world through potential drawings.
I'm always writing a story in myhead, taking mental notes and
(54:29):
recording little segments. Recently, I spoke with a
multimedia artist who told me that his drawings didn't
translate his music or vice versa.
His notations, they came with it.
The more we expand our experiences and the arts, the
more we've carried and carry a wider and richer form of
(54:51):
engagement which we take to our lives and our actions.
Perhaps it doesn't make us better people, probably, but it
certainly seems to make us more disposed to engage with the
world, to wander and to be curious.
As for the characteristics of 21st century arts as opposed to
Raphael's time, I hope I broughtsome proximity between them
(55:15):
rather than radically separatingthem.
If you think about it, nothing has changed much since the caves
in. Here we are and what we take
from our technologies. As ever, it's a game of push and
pull, with perhaps now a more acute awareness of the danger in
(55:37):
the use of certain materials andthe overpowering presence that
they have on the planets. Would this be the reason why
Marina and Anuke focus on the landscape and stories of the
past while subtly making them hybrid and near it?
And ambivalence? What I don't know what to make
(55:58):
of is the writing spectre that in a sense haunts their work.
It's probably just me projectingmy own language onto their art,
but it did seem that the photocopier and the fountain pen
have that memory of the written and the distributed word.
What do you think? This is it.
(56:20):
I hope you enjoyed this new segment as much as I enjoyed
editing it, preparing it, researching it, and particularly
talking to the two artists, AnukMercier and Marina Roca DA, who
were so, so generous with their time.
And you are there. I hope you took something from
(56:42):
it. I'm really curious to know what
you thought of this episode. So leave a comment, send an
e-mail, sign up for the newsletter, follow us on
Instagram. There's so many ways to reach us
and to make suggestions. Tell us what you thought and
perhaps also share a few ideas that you may have had while
(57:03):
listening to the episode. Take care.
Have a good one. I'll see you in a couple of
weeks with another brand new episode.
Take Care.
Hello, I'm Joanna Pionevis, creator and host of exhibition
esters and this is the first episode of the segment My Art
Tools, where I take you to two artists studios by asking a
simple question which unexpectedly reveals quite a few
secrets and stories from the creative source itself.
(00:23):
And the sources in question are Anuk Mercier, an artist who is
now based in France, but has lived many years in the UK and
still teaches at UE Bristol. And Marina Rocardier, who is
based in Madrid and has currently, at the time of
recording and release of the episodes of the 3rd of October
(00:44):
2025, an exhibition at the El Chico Gallery in her hometown,
which we mentioned during the episode because the artists were
interviewed in their studios andshow a few things to the camera.
This may be an episode you mightwant to watch on Spotify or
YouTube, but the audio experience works too.
(01:07):
If that's what you prefer, that's not a problem.
If you want to know more about the artists, I would recommend
going on Instagram and followingexhibition esters, or even
better, signing up to the newsletter to learn more about
them and also to get the links and little gems that didn't make
it to the episode there. For those who may not know, the
(01:30):
exhibition Esters files are partof my page Joanna Pierre Nevis
on Sub Stack. And I don't send informative
newsletters because I really don't enjoy that.
And if I fill in your inbox and spend time promoting each
episode, it has to be for a better cause.
(01:50):
So by signing up, you get to access a different kind of
information. And also all of my texts and a
lot of other posts on Sub Stack that are not newsletters.
I don't have anything under a paywall and I'd love to keep it
that way. So donations are appreciated
either through the website, exhibitionistpodcast.com or Sub
(02:13):
Stack, or even Buy me a coffee. All those links are in the
show's notes. Or if you go to Sub Stack,
obviously you have the subscription button function at
the top of the screen. I think you'll find it.
Anyway, let's move on to the episode.
Allow me to plead my case. What if I told you that the
(02:40):
tools used by artists are absolutely fascinating and may
hold the key to an understandingof their work from within?
We create myths in art, right, Based on the images and
documents we have at hand. Pollock with the drip paintings,
for instance. But what if we looked closely at
(03:02):
other practices and gestures? What if we paid attention?
And also, what if you had someone who would bring these
informations to you? And that's what I'm here for.
Artists use unexpected tools or familiar ones in unexpected
ways. I'm not looking for the
spectacular here, although it might happen, but for the
(03:24):
sensible shift that suddenly opens a panoramic view on a work
of art or a whole body of work. But another thing that led me to
think more intentionally about this topic was an exhibition at
the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford dedicated to Raphael's drawings.
When I went there, I expected tosee a few sketches, and indeed
(03:48):
the exhibition had exquisite works.
But there weren't only sketches or projects.
There were these sorts of screens, or what I now know to
be called cartoons, with holes on the outline of the figures.
And in fact, these cartoons are full size drawings used to
(04:13):
transfer the structure or the composition of the figure,
carefully tested and defined previously through drawing onto
a wall or onto whatever surface the painting is going to be on
by pouncing or tracing. So it means that those little
(04:36):
holes, they were intentional. They were there for a purpose.
The purpose was to then apply powdered charcoal or black chalk
on the drawing so that the little dots would be marked on
the surface to then be painted on.
There was a table there with a display of all the tools that
(05:02):
Raphael used. So when you think of painting,
when you think of drawing, you think of pencil, you think of
graphite, and you think of brushes and paints.
And what the display included were colored chalks and charcoal
metal points, which are rods of metal alloys, so gold, silver,
copper or leads and leads that left microscopic particles on
(05:27):
paper. And so the colour of the line
would depend on the composition of the rod, pen and ink.
He used the blind stylus, which was used to sort of try out
different shapes without markingthe paper and the compass, so a
double pointed compass. So you can see there was a lot
(05:49):
of precision. None of this is in the catalog,
which I promptly bought because I really wanted to study that.
And in my research for the episode, I noticed that only two
articles mention in passing thisdisplay of tools in the
exhibition, enumerating what I just told you and not what I
(06:13):
have on my Instagram, because I took a picture of that display
and I looked it up. Now this was in 2017.
And then the picture I took, there's Reed pen and a fine
brush. So of course this is not to
criticize anyone here, but I do feel that we look at art more
(06:38):
like historians and less like Tekken.
Technologically savvy people with curious minds and who
actually know how to handle stuff and can very quickly put
ourselves in the minds of the people who are creating.
Historians are obsessed with timelines and influences, which
is funny to me, knowing how muchartists lie about dates.
(07:02):
So the Renaissance after all. When I left that exhibition, I
thought associates imagination with science, chemistry with
observation. But mostly, how silly.
The myth of the artist painting from nothing and also to me at
least, how uninspiring it's. You know, it's as if everything
(07:24):
came from the inside, as if the artist didn't spend countless
times adjusting the material to the imaginations, but also
perhaps the imagination to the material.
The precision of the transfer and the care in using a double
pointed compass shows the importance of the final image,
the painting The Italian Renaissance feels to me more
(07:49):
cinema than free representation.It is more seductive than
inspirational. And it's closer, bear with me,
to the convincing power of deepfakes almost than the
compulsions of surrealism. Especially when you know how the
images are made, you look at them in a completely different
(08:09):
way. So Anuk and I talked precisely
about the playfulness of this dynamic between the tool and the
image, the project, the making, and the outcome, before she told
me what her favorite tool was. Drawing can be anything you have
at hand really. And so, you know, often that is,
(08:33):
you know, just buy her in a piece of paper or pencil, but it
can be other things. You know, you can be out walking
and it might be the soil under foot that you use with your
fingers and mark of recording, even if your favorite tool is a
graphite stick, is that the besttool for the project that you're
working on today? Is it the best tool to translate
the, you know, the object or thescene that you want to record?
(08:55):
So I would say in terms of teaching, actually my approach
is the opposite to having a favorite tool.
Sometimes you have an idea and that is the foremost, you know,
that's the first thing, that's the starting point.
And then the tool you, you know,is there to support the idea and
to make it come to life. But sometimes a tool will
(09:17):
inspire an idea or will drive you towards a certain direction,
which is why, again, if we talk in terms of teaching, but also
applied to the studio practice playing is so important.
Because if you only rely on ideas and you know, using tools
to to make those ideas come true, you might actually miss
(09:40):
out on something that is experimental that you wouldn't
have planned. That really only stems from
playing practice. It shows my fountain pain.
And I think it's because it's very difficult to find the right
one. There are thousands of them and
it's a pretty expensive material, expensive tool.
(10:01):
My husband, he gave it to me from a trip.
He, well, I used to live in Berlin and then from a trip he
did in Madrid, he went to the flea market here.
And if you search for it, you will find this like stands with
like really vintage boxes of thousands of these.
(10:24):
And they are pretty, pretty cheap for what you can pay in
the store. So he he was able to buy, I
don't know, 5 or 6 for me to trythem.
And this is my favorite 1. So first of all, the looks, it's
like a steelo pen, like black. It's plastic.
Actually, I think it's like embedded like it's metal
(10:48):
embedded into the plastic, whichis a bit strange, you know, but
it gives it like this look like this vintage look.
So I I really like this one because of the strength of the
point, you know, like sometimes you have to yeah, the tip
sometimes bench for calligraphy are too hard for drawing.
(11:09):
Like you can feel like the paperis scratching, you know, like
like this feeling and that I don't like.
I like it to have some flexibility in the tip.
While ink is not so important for Marina, Anuk's choice is
surprising as it is as much a tool as it is a material, but it
(11:30):
has another component to it. Raphael could not have used it.
As opposed to marinas fountain pen, which is very very close to
the Renaissance materials, Anuk's choice of tool, which is
also in some ways a material, iscompletely dependent upon 20th
(11:54):
century technology of the machine.
When you when you asked me this question, I thought immediately
about toner. I always thought that it was
just carbon powder, which is what it is.
But yesterday, because I was like, I'd better double check
that I'm right about this, I found out that it's actually
these tiny particles of plastic coated in carbon powder.
(12:18):
So I did not know that. So basically this we're talking
about toner. So this is, you know, the toner,
Carter, is that all of us have in in, you know, in used at some
point. They're in most photocopiers.
If you've been to what really any type of education, they are
basically these little plastic particles coated in carbon
(12:40):
powder that are then applied to paper using laser technology and
there's an electric charge involved as well.
And then it's burnt onto the paper.
So the like the plastic particles melt and literally,
you know, sort of cement the carbon powder onto the paper.
(13:03):
So tono is literally those that carbon dust for many, many years
I have used it and I never referenced it.
So, you know, when people ask you, you know, whatever to list
the materials of an artwork. For years, toner did not
feature. I would just say acetone
transfer, which is a transfer method that I used with acetone.
(13:27):
And basically what happens in this transfer technique is that
I use a toner photocopier. I apply the acetone to the back
of the photocopy. The acetone repels the carbon
powder and reprints it. So it transfers it back onto
another piece of paper. So essentially it takes that
(13:50):
carbon dust that's all over my my initial photocopy and it
repels it and pushes the little particles onto the next piece of
paper. Everything started from having
an idea from, you know, 18th century landscapes and etchings
in particular, being my, you know, predominant source of
inspiration, let's say, and wanting to appropriate those
(14:14):
references into my work. I remember this does not happen
anymore because of health and safety.
But when I was an art student onmy foundation course, one way of
introducing students very quickly to the notions of
printmaking was to do acetone transfers.
So I remembered that, you know, years ago, Foundation, I had
tried this technique. I loved how immediate it was.
(14:35):
You've got the photocopy, you transfer it and you know, 2
seconds later you have your transfers.
But it really came from, I had an image, I needed to transfer
it. How do I do it?
Go to the photocopy machine, photocopy, transfer and move on.
And I think there's also something to do with photocopies
are so familiar to all of us. They were very unprecious.
(14:58):
We're not that far from the intricate processes that Raphael
and other artists of the Renaissance used to work on
their shapes, to copy them, to transfer them onto drawings,
from drawings and then to the final piece.
We're not that far away from a sort of a mechanic handling of
(15:22):
the shape through a very, very trained hand.
The artists of the Renaissance used mechanical copy of drawings
that they were satisfied with, and why waste time making them
over and over again? And why not keep them?
(15:43):
And perhaps once they're transferred on to the final
piece, maybe change them a little bit.
And something to note as well isthat that technique, you know,
the pouncing technique, breakinglittle holes on an outline was
used for tapestries, for example, to reproduce patterns
(16:05):
of tapestries and other crafts. So there is also.
This tension in the technique that is used to make.
What we call, perhaps with a sense of grandeur, masterpieces.
So in some ways it's really interesting to use 20th century
tools in order to look at what was done in the past, play the
(16:29):
anachronic game, and try to assess what we try to obtain
through these tools that seem sodistant and yet kind of produce
the same thing, which is to extract images that already
exist in order to make new ones.And so that really affects the
(16:53):
idea we have of creation and of image making from a an artistic
point of view, not from an entertainment point of view or
from from a publicity and advertisement point of view, but
really this area, this field of intense creativity, imagination,
(17:13):
but also science and research and purpose and intentional
experimentation. When looking at the work of both
artists, you would not imagine the technical challenges that
they both have, nor the physicalengagement with the process.
(17:34):
My first kind of, you know, Commission, which was to create
an artwork for Bristol Museum. I basically, you know, I
proposed my whole idea for the Commission, which would
basically be to photocopy imagesfrom their collections to bring
their collection back to life through a new artwork, which is,
(17:58):
you know, a, a way of working which I adore, like plunging
into history and looking at collection and, and, and really
finding ways for the, you know, contemporary audiences to re
engage with those, you know, artworks and artists and
narratives. So, you know, it was really
exciting for me to get an opportunity to work with a
(18:18):
museum on this so I could pitch to my idea.
And everyone agreed, Move forward was very excited.
And at the time, even though I graduated, I did all my
photocopying at the UE library. So I would sneak back in, even
though I wasn't really allowed to, and I would photocopy, you
(18:39):
know, and yes, apologies to UE if they're listening to this,
this, I guess, you know, it sounds kind of crazy, but to me,
an hour and a half of photocopying images is
comparable to a painter going toan art shop and buying tubs of
painting. It was my primary source
material, right? And you can still see behind me.
(19:00):
This is how I do. So I do lots of photocopies.
Then I put them up on the wall. So I see the images and then
I'll select areas of them, cut them out and then transfer them.
And on this occasion, which feltto me like the most important
time, you know, finally had a Commission for a museum, I got
to the library, did all my photocopying, go back to the
studio, sat down, started to make and it didn't work.
(19:25):
It just didn't work. So the photocopies that I had
made, I did everything as usual,used the acetone and nothing
happened. So obviously utter panic.
And then I spent a day going around Bristol in all different
shops doing different photocopies to see if it was the
photocopier that was different. And all of, you know, just tried
(19:49):
lots of different things and I, I just couldn't make it work
anymore. I ended up actually contacting
the photocopying machine producers, I can't remember who
it was. And a very helpful person
explained to me. That it's because the technology
was advancing and they were now burning the toner and so burning
(20:12):
the carbon powder at much highertemperatures onto the paper,
which to them was great because I don't know if you remember
this from holding for copious you used to have black fingers
afterwards and that was the toner powder coming off on your
hands. So for them, increasing the
temperature meant there was no more staining of fingers, but it
(20:33):
also more durable, you know, just better quality all around.
So basically he said to me, you know, we're going around
replacing all of the photocopiers so that now they
burn at much high temperature. So your technique isn't going to
work anymore. The only way to resolve this is
that I then did lots of research, spoke to the guys at,
(20:54):
you know, the various printer companies, printer
manufacturers, and identified a model that still use toner at
the temperature I needed. And I bought the photocopier and
it's in my studio and I still have it today.
And they still luckily make those toner cartridges further
for that photocopier. All this to say, I am so not a
(21:17):
geeky person. This makes me sound like, you
know, I'm really into understanding technology and
actually I'm really not that kind of person.
But the technology I was using has forced me to become a bit of
a photocopier geek and a toner geek.
And from that day on, I started listing toner as a medium
(21:38):
because I was like, it's a very real thing.
Drawing is a much more complex affair when it comes to tools,
but also the body, or perhaps I should say when it comes to the
relation between the body and whatever is used to make the
image or the final artwork. I have a lot of anxiety with
(21:59):
with my hands, you know, like I am all the time like needing to
do something. Like if I'm in a bar, I'm like
squeezing a little napkin or like a piece of paper or like
doing something while I talk. And yeah, and it's very common
that I am touching the lid whileI'm drawing.
(22:20):
So for me, drawing is something of like, it's an activity
related with this, right? Drawing in a way, there are no
mistakes. But at the beginning when you
Start learning, there's a lot ofmistakes, you know, so you learn
to spot them and to really realize if you want to keep them
or not, you know, and in a ways like beforehand.
(22:42):
So I would say a mistake in a drawing done now for me would be
that is like out of composition for like for me, composition is
like, is my, is my problem, You know, because I think, yeah, I,
I tend to be very expansive. And so I, I approach too much to
(23:06):
the borders. Sometimes I, I don't leave space
to continue, you know, like I just like, I expand and expand.
I would need more paper, but then like, but the paper is
limited. That's like what constitutes
A-frame. Like you have to assume the
frame before you start. It's a rule.
It's a rule from the substance of the material you're using.
(23:30):
It's like like you cannot assumean infinite frame like an
infinite paper. Like you have to assume the
borders of the paper because then at some point you get out
of the paper, you know, like you're painting on the table at
some point. So it's like it's a given, I
think. And, but it's more like the
(23:53):
relationship with the thing I'm drawing.
Like for example, if I'm planning to draw a figure in a
landscape and then I start to, with the fountain pain, I start
from, I don't know the head of the figure.
Normally I do it too big, then the landscape is not fitting in.
That's my problem. I would need more paper around
(24:16):
and then I would expand the drawing and then I would add
more paper around and spend the drawing and more paper.
And then it's like it's impossible.
Like no, no, you have to containit.
Like it's important. The frame is the most important,
you know, And with drawing, I think it's more this fact is
very obvious in the sense that for me, a drawing is something
(24:40):
like the paper is just a support.
But you could actually remove that support and put a black one
or a yellow one and another any other color, any other coloring
of paper. And you could still rise up the
drawing like as if it was like awire, you know, in I want a
(25:01):
void. But it's also like it's a, it's
a way of seeing, you know, like with your eyes.
It's a way of using your eyes while you're drawing.
I think it's a yeah, Yeah. Like drawing has that like this
flattening of reality and then you the paper is assumed.
But it could be any other paper or any other material, or it
(25:21):
could be a wall, or it could be directly the frame, and then you
draw on a board of the frame. I'm a painter.
I'm a Flat Earth, you know, likethe frame is the paint is the
painting. Damn it.
No, of course I'm joking, but it's for me the painting is a
(25:49):
frame actually. That's like the frame of
reference, like on the format. That's also why my exhibition
now that is like an installationinstead of just white cube and
paintings on top. Because in a way I think every
painter or every draft man needsto assume the frame, but this
(26:11):
also desire to get out of the frame.
And so for me, like the effect of the white cube on on
paintings in a painting exhibition is the same as the
effect of the paper on a drawing.
It's just the support. And you assume it, you don't
think about it. And it could be another 1 you
could change, exchange it for another one, you know.
(26:36):
So what I'm doing is like covering the whole all walls and
like braking on the white cube. Yeah.
And then I'm putting the paintings on top of that.
It felt constrained and smothering, this need to conform
to a size of a AER and the shapeof the canvas, until I
(26:57):
understood that it is part of the game.
It's like a game of cards whose combinations are incredibly vast
but contained by the rules of a game, which reduces the
possibilities but makes it far more enjoyable because it allows
you to have an effect on the outcome and also to let the
outcome effects you. Marina's exhibition at the El
(27:22):
Chico Gallery in Madrid is an all over installation where the
walls are completely covered with a painting with brown tree
trunks and a deep dark blue sky on one side and on the other a
brown red crepuscular atmosphereas if going from the beginning
to the end of the day. The floor is also painted in a
(27:45):
deep but sort of luminous blue with darker lines like rings in
a body of water, and there are also paintings on the floor.
Marina mentioned the reference to the history and fictional
narratives that we carry. But working from prints and
somehow stealing them, what impact does her technique and
(28:07):
Nuke's technique have on the past, how we see it and current
stories? What is drawing, then, if it is
so vast a field that it extends to engraving, photocopying,
performing a sort of discipline to actually see through the
(28:28):
hand? It's like a slow thinking
drawings, like thinking very slow.
You know, like, you wander around a page and sometimes,
like, for the kind of drawing that I do, which is like
expressionist, expressionist, material expressionist drawing,
sometimes people tend to believethat it's like because it's
(28:50):
gestural, it means it's fast, but it's not fast necessarily.
You know, why Fountain pain. Actually, yeah.
Maybe it has to do with some kind of tradition where you
learn. I don't know, but you know what
I mean. Yeah.
So The thing is that when I learn how to draw, it was
important that you couldn't correct the drones with this.
(29:14):
Like, you cannot erase it and make it back right again, you
know what I mean? So you could learn what was
wrong about the drawing. And so it has something very
emancipatory for me in this sense of like once the line is
done, it's done. That's it.
(29:35):
There's no correction. And it's very beautiful in the
sense of a practice is a kind ofperformative aspect.
Like once it's done, it's done. So that's it.
So you commit to the line and that's beautiful.
And then sometimes they are shitty drawings, you know,
that's also fine. Like you don't need to share
(29:58):
them all. You don't need.
Like, you can destroy them, that's fine.
Just calmly destroy them. I destroyed many drawings.
I had many, many bad ideas, you know, that didn't work.
I'm curious about the situationswhere the tools used come to us
unexpectedly and enter the studio or a particular project,
(30:20):
and this at the most unexpected of times.
My this is before we had children and Max was not my
husband, he was my partner. But he said to me you're working
too much, I have to take you away for a weekend to Wales.
And honestly it was a very busy time and I was like very
(30:40):
reluctant to go. And I was like, oh, I just want
to be in my studio. So he took me to this tiny
village in Wales, can't rememberwhat it's called.
There was nothing there. And I entered this holiday, sell
imposed holiday quite reluctantly to be honest with
you. But anyway, when we were there
walking in this tiny town, therewas this tiny shop cafe thing
and they had this tiny section with like 2 shelves and on there
(31:03):
with some art materials. And you know, I looked of course
and I found this, this pen whichwas really like a felt it brush
felt it. But this beautiful pen that came
from Japan, I have no idea why this tiny shop in Wales was
selling this pen. No idea.
Anyway, I picked it up and spentthis little weekend drawing in
(31:26):
my sketchbook. And that went on to me starting
drawing with ink and experimenting with different
brushes. And I guess that's an example of
a time where it was really an object of material that led, you
know, to ideas within my practice and in a completely
unexpected, unlooked for kind ofway.
(31:48):
And I think the lesson I learnedfrom that holiday was that it's
actually good to get out becausesometimes, you know, you're
exposed to influences you would never have expected, or you
encounter material you've never,you know, encountered before.
Well The thing is I did still end up drawing all weekends.
The joy of finding a new thing to work with is also the joy of
developing a new project, which is precisely what happened with
(32:13):
Marina. You can think about a drawing
that then you can exhibit or sell or just put it hanging
some, somewhere or like a drawing as an object.
And you can think of drawing as a as a, a thought to arrive to
something else. So like I've been, I've done
(32:37):
thousands and thousands of drawings in my life.
Bible is called a Bible for Lilith.
I can show you, but I have to, Ihave to go for it.
Just give me a SEC. It's very exciting to show the
Bible because I it's a very difficult object to show,
(33:01):
actually to exhibit, because howcan you exhibit this?
But the the thing with this object that it started as a
mistake, as a failure in a way. Like my boyfriend said, it would
be great to have a sketchbook that pages are two things so I
(33:22):
can trace like I can see the next page.
So I thought, ah, for his birthday, I'm going to find like
this Bible paper that is so thin.
I'm going to find a book that isblank paper, but it's like this
Bible paper. So we can see what he has drawn
(33:43):
on the the prior drawing, you know, so you can see through.
And so I bought it for him as a present.
And then it was like super long because it came from China.
And by the time he received the present, he didn't remember this
idea anymore. So where he got it, he was like
(34:03):
a Bible. What the fuck are you giving
that? Like why?
You know, it's like, and then hewas like so stupid because he
was coming from China. It got stopped at customs.
So then I we had to like cross the whole Berlin to pick this
shit up and then when he opened it like, Oh my present finally,
(34:25):
like, I don't know like 2 monthsdelay of his birthday or
whatever, then he was like a pipe.
Why? You know, so it's just like, OK,
forget the so stupid, stupid, very stupid.
Like it turned completely. Ridiculous.
This that was for you. It was not fair.
(34:46):
Yeah, and aware of it. I I bought it for myself.
But anyways, I kept it in any case, anyways, that doesn't
matter. What matters is that I get it.
And it's like almost 500 drawings.
Yeah. So I spent a couple of years
(35:09):
doing this, you know, it has like, a golden spine, you know,
all these little thingies. It's a real Bible, you know.
And then I started, OK, I'm going to do some erotic drawings
here because, like, ha, ha, I'm very radical.
Whatever. And then at some point you
(35:30):
realize that you have to commit or you don't continue, you know,
but like at some point you decide if you are going to
really do 500 drawings or reallyno.
And then you stop now. But you know, but like to leave
it half is shit. So just like when did you commit
it or not? And I did, I committed.
(35:53):
Yeah. And so.
Yeah. So The thing is that like it
started, you know, you can see abit of development.
OK, So Lilith is like the first woman of the Bible.
So in the Bible, like there is asentence at the beginning of the
Genesis saying God grabs I, I don't know, I'm very phrasing,
(36:14):
of course, but God grab a piece of lamp, a lamp of clay and then
cut it in half. And then he was like creating
woman and a man. Because this is like pre
biblical texts, like Lily, this pre biblical texts.
So in like this, like versions, like Jewish versions of the
(36:36):
Genesis, some versions of the Bible kept this sentence, this
like very mysterious sentence, but it's like God created the
human bites image and look or something like that.
Female and male, he created them.
And then, yeah. So that that was the first idea
(36:58):
was like grab a lamp of clay, you cut it in half, you have a
woman and you have man. And then this man was Saddam,
this woman was Lilith, and Lilith was a rebel and she
wanted to fuck with on top. You know, it's that's what it
(37:21):
says in the stories to lead sex activity.
And Adam wanted to have a missionary position like a
regular. He wanted to be on top.
She wanted to be on top too. So they they have a fight of
power because Adam wants her to be a bit minor and then she
(37:42):
wants to be equal. So she runs away from heaven,
you know, from paradise, which is very funny.
It's a funny thing. Like she runs away from
paradise. Wasn't it the the best place to
be? It was like the best place to
be. No, she didn't want to be there.
Exactly. And so she runs away and she
(38:06):
goes to the Red Sea, and then she she starts to live there and
there's like a bunch of demons and she fucks them all.
And then she has tons of babies.They say.
Like, she has 100 babies a day. That's what it says in the
story. Yeah, she has something.
(38:30):
And so. So Adam gets bored and he tries
to confraternize with animals. That's what it says.
Really. I'm not with animals, with the
animals around to see if he can like get along and he of course,
he cannot find the comfort. And so he asked God to bring her
(38:51):
back. God sends for angels, I think,
to bring her back and then just go to to the Red Sea to bring
Lily back. She's super busy.
She moved on. She doesn't give a fuck about
Adam anymore. And then the the angels come to
pick her up and she's like, fuckyou.
I'm not going, you know, I'm staying here.
(39:14):
So the the story says that the angels, they as a revenge, they
kill all her kids. And then because God cannot find
a solution for Lily to come backto the paradise, then she like
he thinks that OK, then let's make a woman but out of your
(39:37):
body. So it's a bit of a minor from
the birth. And then he creates Eva.
Time and dedication to a projectcome with the type of final
outcome 1 ends up creating. But if we invert this logic, it
may as well be that Marina foundthe state of completion which
could apply to such a no mistakekind of work.
(40:01):
On the other hand, her interest in the erotic, the body and sex
also found a place where it could exist.
I feel the responsibility of, yeah, I think it, I think art
can be very ethical or unethicalbecause sex is a very, very
(40:21):
delicate subject indeed, becauseit's also like it can be very
aggressive for many, many people.
And you are making it visible and it's something that is
supposed to be in the intimate sphere, right?
And so, but then at the same time, because it's in the
(40:42):
intimate sphere, like for many decades it hasn't been talked
about. And then that has led many
people to dangerous situations because of lack of sex
education. But then at the same time, if
you're drawing it, you are like making it visible for everyone
to see. And that's very, it's so So
(41:03):
yeah, I'm responsible for that. And I understand too, you know,
like it can be highly pleasurable and highly dangerous
for many people. And at the same time also, you
know, like some like there is some connection between pleasure
and pain. I think that's interesting.
But then at the same time, I also understand that there are
(41:24):
some channels where you shouldn't be able to show sex
because you, you know, I don't want to be scrolling down
Instagram and then all of a sudden find an addiction like
boom on like a porno image. I don't want that either, you
know, like it has to be, it's very aggressive, you know, like
I'm not in the mood. Like why you're not asking about
(41:46):
it? Time for a short break to let
you into the exhibitionist studio.
Look around you. There is a computer, a good mic,
the software in the computer, which is a sort of virtual space
through which you and I meet with a time and space delay.
(42:10):
Then there are my books and two perfectly round Flintstones.
All the magic happens here. I've been talking to a
university whose students need placements and I could use some
assistance with production and research while also mentoring
(42:30):
the future professionals of the field.
But for that I have to pay them.And that's where you come in.
Do you know how much a membership costs?
A mere £25 a year. Which means that you pay £2 a
month, 25 lbs for a whole year when you buy a catalog.
(42:56):
That's the average price for onesingle book with two texts.
If you become a member of Exhibition Esters through a
platform called Sub Stack, you not only get to support
Exhibition Esters, but you also receive on average about 18 more
texts minimum that I will have written about many, many, many
(43:21):
fascinating topics of contemporary arts, philosophy of
art, and many other subjects. There's a little bonus that I
added, which is getting to ask me questions.
I'm very, very happy to do the research for you or to dig into
my little well of knowledge and put the information out there
(43:43):
for you. I can name you or you can be
anonymous, so you get to put me to work as long as the questions
and the prompts you give me within my abilities and the
research material available to me.
Otherwise, you can go to donor books in the description notes.
(44:04):
You can just donate one time, very, very small amounts.
That's what I do with Wikipedia once in a while.
I put some money in there because I use it almost daily
and I want to reward people who nourish me.
Thank you for spending some timewith me here in my studio.
Thank you for considering this decent proposal.
(44:28):
On with the episode. This question of control,
controlling the space where images are, who sees them and
where, reverts back also to the freedom of creating and the
discipline of release and tension in creative processes.
Imagination must flow, but technique must shape it,
(44:49):
although not too much. Ideas must preside, but perhaps
not on the conscious level. Stories are present, but are
they at the start or at the end of the final outcome?
If you put some acetone onto a photocopier and you push it
around, you start seeing the pigments moving like dust.
(45:11):
So you can make little piles of dust or move it around.
And what I love about that is that it meets at that point
graphite, which is the other thing that I use and the other
tool that I use. And it means especially now
recently favorite castle has I've got them here, has created
(45:35):
these pit graphite mats so that they're making graphite pencils
now that don't reflect. So if you color with them,
they're very, very matte. My pencil a choice.
But these so this is very reflective.
This is not and basically these new pencils with toner carbon
powder, It's, it looks and feelslike the same thing and now I
(45:59):
can blend them seamlessly. It's kind of like taking my work
in a slightly different, well, little bit of a different
direction because I can now rework photocopies and images
and you can't tell that I've reworked them because the
graphite, this graphite is very much like the carbon powder.
Part of why I find this process interesting because I am
(46:21):
actually taking, you know, prints mainly etchings really as
a reap. So basically reproduction on so
many levels. There is the original etching
that has been reproduced itself several times, usually to, you
know, to make additions. And then they have been
reproduced in art books. I have the arcs.
(46:44):
I then reproduce the reproductions of the
reproductions through a photocopier.
And what I'm interested in as well is the dilution of the
image through that process of reproduction.
And when you reproduce images, you know, in the final stages of
my stage on a photocopier, it isfurther diluted because
(47:05):
actually, you know, the photocopies transfer more or
less well. So some of them get distressed
or, you know, slightly damaged. But also, this is where the
acetone part is interesting because depending on many
factors, the acetone moves like transfers the toner, more or
(47:27):
less. So I had another moment of like,
oh, my goodness, it's not working.
Why? Because so I, I, you know, I
have moved to France partly because I have now a house with
a big barn that's going to be a great studio and we're working
on it. But for now it's very much an
empty barn with no heating. And, and last winter, you know,
me, I was like out there with my, you know, duffel coat making
(47:50):
and my transfers were not working.
And I was like, no, why are theynot working?
Yeah, I know, not this again. And in the end I realized I came
to the conclusion after trying lots of different things that it
was actually that it was the acetone that's at a lower
(48:10):
temperature, basically under 10°acetone doesn't really work as
well. So the toner to transfer the
acetone needs to work be strong and it needs to be more than
10°, so. So all this to say that you know
when I am transferring the photocopies the image gets
altered and factors like the temperature on the day, the you
(48:33):
know how, how diluted or not theacetone is, what brush I use as
well, how hard I press. All of these things influence
the transfer of the image and toan extent over many years.
Now I control this. So I know if I use this type of
pressure on this type of image, photocopied at this, because you
(48:58):
know, on a photocopier you can alter how light or dark the
photocopy comes out. So I also play with this.
I've also always done very, verynearly hyper realistic graphite
drawings. So that's all about control, all
about control. This aspect, in contrast, the
fact that I can never thoroughlycontrol, even though I've tried
for years, I never have control over the final transfer, is
(49:22):
actually a huge needing like a relief to me.
It makes the making exciting because I'm going to respond to
the transfer. Sometimes it does something I'd
never anticipated before. And then those marks, the
transfers, which I then draw over, they will inform the
drawing to an extent. So I'm responding to the
unpredictability of the transfer.
(49:44):
And I love that way of working. It's for me, it feels very
liberating. I would say, you know, that half
of my practice is, is too tight.And I think like, you know, when
drawings are too stiff or too ininvertedcom is perfect or
trying, you know, hyper realism.I mean, this is not a criticism
of hyper realism. You know, I need to work that
(50:06):
way because it's partly how I learned to draw.
When I observe something really,really intensely, I understand
it. So for me, it's a necessary
exercise that I really enjoy thethe drawing, you know, really
realistically, but it's extremely tight.
And I always, when I went that way, I'm always thinking, you
(50:29):
know, that's great. But actually you need to loosen
up. You need to let you know, I
always think of art in a scientific way.
You need space for experimentation because it's
when you experiment or you play that things you hadn't thought
about the car or you know, whereyou kind of get into that flow
state, sort of like, you know, things come to you, etcetera.
(50:49):
So all this to say that if tomorrow my photocopier breaks
down and that's it, I know that I would be already and I have
already started looking for another technique, method that
brings that element of unpredictability in in in the
transfer or in the way it works.I think an important part of the
(51:13):
process for me is thinking abouthow, you know, that whole
precious side of art making, especially in Europe, that the
etchings, you know, they're, they're like really laborious
art making techniques. And people thought I should try
etching and I might like it, butI actually didn't because it's
so like tight and, and laborious.
And I think, you know, there wasthis whole thing about these
(51:35):
like master print makers, you know, of the 18th century and
this kind of reverence to print.And I adore those artists.
I adore their prints. But a big part of the way I'm
working now and with a photocopier is being able to be
playful about those references, those images and those
(51:56):
techniques. And I think one of the, the main
things, and I've no answer to this, but that always kind of
results from, from this relationship that I have is
whether people think my work is print or not, because it's not
print in the sense there isn't this, you know, people will say,
but there's not that labor intensive side of it.
So I'm just transferring an image now.
(52:17):
I started referencing the artistwhose work I'm appropriating so
that people know it's a deliberate wanted collaboration.
Not that I'm trying to kind of, you know, and also to bring that
artist, you know, to to new audiences.
I suppose realize that all the reference material that I have,
it's all male artists. And so I've been wanting to use
female print makers. When you are a female printer,
(52:38):
because it's like you are like carrying the weight of all the
tradition made by mail. I try and draw every day, even
after my kids are in bed or, or you know, and having those two
ways of working has allowed me to keep making at all times.
But it was already something I did anyway.
But it's been reinforced by, youknow, having to keep making in
(53:00):
that sense. I think Jordan teaches you to
really see. It's hard to explain to people
what seeing really truly is. But you know, for example, you
know, go and draw water. And then when you look at water,
you will never see it the same way you see it in kind of areas
of light and dark, broken up movement.
And it just adds a lay. I don't know, I feel like I see
(53:22):
the world more intensely. If you study something and you
draw it, you then you know, it'slike on a daily basis, even if
I'm not drawing from observation, when I look at
things, I feel like you know, you're, you're always sort of
deconstructing and trying to understand what you're actually
like seeing. It was fascinating listening to
such different artists with different experiences of
(53:43):
drawing, art making and exhibition spaces.
I'm surprised to see how observational drawing for them
is linked with seeing and how itpervades their day-to-day life.
What I mean by that, it's obviously if you observe and you
draw, it has to do with seeing, but there is a real dynamic
(54:06):
between having drawn and then seeing the world in a completely
different way. I connected a lot with Anuk,
saying that even when she's going about her life, she is
indeed seeing the world through potential drawings.
I'm always writing a story in myhead, taking mental notes and
(54:29):
recording little segments. Recently, I spoke with a
multimedia artist who told me that his drawings didn't
translate his music or vice versa.
His notations, they came with it.
The more we expand our experiences and the arts, the
more we've carried and carry a wider and richer form of
(54:51):
engagement which we take to our lives and our actions.
Perhaps it doesn't make us better people, probably, but it
certainly seems to make us more disposed to engage with the
world, to wander and to be curious.
As for the characteristics of 21st century arts as opposed to
Raphael's time, I hope I broughtsome proximity between them
(55:15):
rather than radically separatingthem.
If you think about it, nothing has changed much since the caves
in. Here we are and what we take
from our technologies. As ever, it's a game of push and
pull, with perhaps now a more acute awareness of the danger in
(55:37):
the use of certain materials andthe overpowering presence that
they have on the planets. Would this be the reason why
Marina and Anuke focus on the landscape and stories of the
past while subtly making them hybrid and near it?
And ambivalence? What I don't know what to make
(55:58):
of is the writing spectre that in a sense haunts their work.
It's probably just me projectingmy own language onto their art,
but it did seem that the photocopier and the fountain pen
have that memory of the written and the distributed word.
What do you think? This is it.
(56:20):
I hope you enjoyed this new segment as much as I enjoyed
editing it, preparing it, researching it, and particularly
talking to the two artists, AnukMercier and Marina Roca DA, who
were so, so generous with their time.
And you are there. I hope you took something from
(56:42):
it. I'm really curious to know what
you thought of this episode. So leave a comment, send an
e-mail, sign up for the newsletter, follow us on
Instagram. There's so many ways to reach us
and to make suggestions. Tell us what you thought and
perhaps also share a few ideas that you may have had while
(57:03):
listening to the episode. Take care.
Have a good one. I'll see you in a couple of
weeks with another brand new episode.
Take Care.
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