June 27, 2025 • 44 mins
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EPISODE: End of season episode where curator Joana P. R. Neves uncovers the richness of new perspectives on contemporary art through the ethos found in podcasting. Joana also shares insights from her attendance at the International Women Podcast Awards, highlighting the non-hierarchical nature of the podcasting community. Looking ahead, she teases new formats and changes for the upcoming season, while opening up about the need for engagement.
Exhibitionistas Podcast • June 27, 2025 • Episode 2x21 • 44:25
What You'll Learn from This Episode
Key Questions Explored:
- The podcast celebrates its two-season journey with 33 episodes.
- Joana reflects on the two origins and evolution of the podcast.
- Podcasting is transitioning into new formats and technologies–Joana reveals how this instills a new energy into art reviewing.
- Inclusivity and non-hierarchical structures as essential feminist values intersecting with podcasting.
- The role of the art critic is re-assessed and redefined.
- Biographical data should be used against the elitism plaguing art in a non-deterministic way.
- Museums contribue to elitism with the tools that should counter it.
- Engagement and feedback from listeners are learned but necessary behaviours.
- Joana sees podcasting as potentially extending the job market for art, provided there is financial sustainability.
Key Themes Explored in This EpisodeThe unexpected relation between art, podcasting and feminism. The importance of inclusivity within feminism for the host. How critical thinking can be accessible through artist biographies and avoiding myth-making through superlatives. Audience engagement is crucial for podcasting; there is a relation between the podcaster and their audience. Podcasting fosters connections and breaks the unilateral aspect of contemporary art experiences and discourse. The reasons why there is a difficulty in turning a podcast sustainable are varied: audience habits are analysed as well as the audience awareness of podcast work.
Major Themes: The Digital Format of Art Content, Ethics of Feminism in Podcasting, Museum Communication Strategies and Failures, Potential of Connectivity through the Accessibility of Podcasting, The Love and Respect for Art and Artist's time Dedication to Art, The State of Art Criticism Today, Contemporary Critical Thinking, Audience Engagement, How to Engage with a Podcast, The Importance of Paid Work in Podcasting. The importance of Understanding Podcasting with Critical Thinking and Writing, Art & Elitism, alienating audiences.
Measure Pleasure examines the love and dedication to contemporary art, by spectators, curators, critics and, conversely, its reputation of elitism.
Perfect for: Art students, gallery visitors, anyone curious about art discourse and critique, and fans of philosophy of art, contemporary art audience engagement strategies, podcasters and more specifically art podcasters.
Intro: 00:00:00
The feminism of podcasting: 00:03:24
Is the art critic obsolete?: 00:07:46
The value of biases: 00:08:48
Audience engagement: show your bias!: 00:12:24
Biography: 00:14:38
Do museums alienate audiences with declarations of greatness?: 00:20:06
Insights into art podcasting: 00:29:54
EXPECT SUMMER EPISODES!
NEXT SEASON: SEPTEMBER 2025 - JUNE 2026
For behind the scenes clips, links to the artists and guests we cover, and visuals of the exhibitions we discuss follow us on Instagram: @exhibitionistas_podcast
Bluesky: @exhibitionistas.bsky.social
exhibitionistaspod@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I'm Joanna Pierre Nevis, your host, and this is exhibitionist
this. I'm an independent writer and
curator with a wide-ranging 2 decades career in contemporary
art, from commercial galleries to art fairs, from research to
curating, from Lisbon to London through Paris.
(00:28):
But when I'm asked what I do outside the out world, the
inevitable reaction is, oh, I don't know anything about
contemporary art. Ouch.
So call it a midlife crisis, call it arrogance, but I gave
myself the task of trying to fill that gap with Co host
conversation episodes centered around a genuine exchange of
(00:51):
thoughts, feelings and precious context around solo exhibitions,
interviews and special episodes based on a particular topic to
keep you alert and on your toes.If you want to read further into
some of the topics discussed in the episodes and more, you can
(01:11):
also find me on sub stack under my name, Joanna Pyroneves.
All right, hello, hello, and welcome to the last episode of
season two. Yes, this is the last episode,
and it has a weird title. It's called a Measure Pleasure,
(01:33):
and I'll tell you why. So I'm going to look back into
the reasons why I decided to do the podcasts.
I'm going to share a few thoughts that I don't think I've
ever shared with you and to explain my thinking behind each
format, behind the very idea of podcasting in this way and
(01:57):
designing the content that I've designed.
But I'm also going to look into the future.
So two things. Firstly, the season's over, but
I will be dropping a few specialor summer special episodes where
I will be testing some formats or also jumping on occasions on
(02:17):
opportunities that were too goodto say no to.
Secondly, I'm also going to introduce the third season.
So we believe it or not, we're going into the third season and
I am really happy to share the first thing, which is that I
counted all the episodes, there's 33 of them.
(02:38):
So if you'll allow me, I am selfcongratulating here, I am
celebratory. I am celebrating this
substantial amount of recording,of editing, of content, of
sharing, of chatting, of conversing, exchanging ideas,
(02:59):
and mostly of trying to deliver artistic experiences,
information, feelings, critical thinking around arts.
And thanks to arts, without exhibitions, without artists and
their work, there wouldn't be exhibitionists, right?
(03:22):
So let's start this. The first thing I want to share
with you is an event I went to. I think podcasting is in a
transitional phase. Some people don't quite know how
to handle it. It's not radio, it's not TV, but
you can watch it because now there's video.
And I don't think a lot of you, dear listeners, and apologies
(03:45):
for saying this, realize the work that is behind it, the
technological challenges, softwares are changing, the
format itself is changing. Now there's video, for example,
I had to move from being a strictly audio experience to
having video sound on offer. So that's why I decided to go to
(04:14):
the IWPA, the International Women Podcast Awards that took
place last week. And dear listener, I'm going to
be very, very candid with you and tell you that Samantha
Baines was an amazing presenter,by the way.
Just just wanted to say that I was expecting to feel a green
(04:40):
with envy, you know, to look at all those women who have teams,
who have editors, who have producers.
Literally, I have had dreams that I had a producer.
So I was really expecting at some point to think, OK, it's
time to go home. You've done this, you know,
congratulate yourself for havingbeen to an event of the
(05:02):
industry, but now it's time to grab some chips and go home and
drown your sorrows. Well, no, it was not at all like
that. These are the independent
podcast awards and of course, women, trans women, non binary
inclusive. That also contributed to warm
(05:26):
Michael Hart in the UK. You never know.
You never know what kind of feminism you're going to be
interacting with. And this was right up my alley.
I was very happy to see all thatinclusivity and that was really
heartwarming. But the most important thing of
(05:47):
the event was the non hierarchical aspect of it.
The values of feminism really correspond to podcasting.
So podcasting is accessible. It is less formal than ATV show
or then radio. It has its own rules, of course,
(06:09):
and there are hierarchies everywhere.
If not for the fact that some people have teams and others
don't. Some people have means, others
don't. Some podcasts are much easier to
fundraise for than others. Some podcasts are immediately
supported by their listeners, others aren't.
So of course there are hierarchies, but I would say
(06:30):
they're organic. And so we were all talking to
one another and I was really blown away by the transparency
of everyone. We were not hiding numbers, We
were not hiding or fudging our follower numbers on social
media. It was with huge transparency
(06:51):
that we had really interesting conversations and that we
exchanged tips with each other. I wanted to share this with you
because I asked myself what is this profile that I have?
The feminism, inclusivity and the non hierarchical aspect.
And this has implications in theway I introduce the artists and
(07:15):
also the way I think critically about an exhibition, about an
artwork, about a particular context in which an exhibition
is organized or a solo exhibition is delivered to
audiences. And of course I am going to
check, I'm going to see, OK, is someone excluded from this?
(07:36):
Why is this person here? From what platform are they
speaking? How comfortable are they in this
platform? These are concerns I have.
I don't think that the figure ofthe art critic is contemporary
anymore. I think it's quite obsolete
because the art critics supposedly is this persona, this
(07:59):
neutral, unbiased entity giving an opinion.
Nonetheless, of course it is a specialist's opinion.
But you know, critics had a lot of power back in the day, they
don't anymore. So that is the first symptom,
isn't it? Before critics could break
someone's reputation. I do value critical thinking
(08:22):
rather than saying from the get go I like it or I don't, which
odd critics don't do of course either, but underlyingly so they
do. So for me, the positioning is
very different. The difference being that, and
this is really interesting, I was listening to a podcast that
(08:43):
spoke exactly about the same thing.
So I'm going to draw a parallel here.
We are bringing a bias and I'm interested in what bias you
bring and I'm interested in making you aware of it.
So, for example, in the Dido Moriyama episodes in the first
season, I had to explain right off the bat a very specific bias
(09:09):
I have, which is that I have a hard time with photography.
You know, he talks of himself asa hunter, which, you know, is an
attitude. And so that turns the subject
matter of his photographs praise.
And in some ways, he talked about that poster of it's a
(09:31):
diagonal of torsos of male torsos bathing in the sun.
It's a beautiful photograph. And I kind of think, what if it
was me in that photo? It's.
But by talking about it and by having to research the artist, I
was able to expand and to question and to kind of fight my
(09:58):
bias a little bit and to be ableto position myself again within
it with the information that I brought into it.
So I was listening to a show called Creators, which is
specifically for podcasters and for a specific kind of
podcasting called 2 Point. O will not go into it.
(10:22):
If you want to research it, do because it's really interesting
and it might be, or at least some aspects of it, the future
of the industry. And so this podcast is led by
the lovely Claire Waite Brown, who interviewed me for it and
Sam Sethi in the True Fans platform.
(10:42):
And they were chatting with a podcaster.
So the purpose of these interviews is to situate these
new developments in podcasting, but also to ask podcasters about
their struggles, their successesand how they operate, you know,
podcasting in general. And so they were interviewing
(11:04):
Fariba Nawa. He was an investigative
journalist and she has a podcastthat sounds incredible.
I'm, I'm following her now called Onspec.
She's an investigative journalist, right?
And nevertheless, she says that the specificity of On Spec, her
podcast, is that she's interested in working with
(11:26):
people, bringing topics, investigation topics where they
have or that they're part of. So they bring their bias, but
they announce it. And I thought that was so
interesting. And I'm wondering if that's
specific to podcasting because podcasting kind of breaks the,
(11:47):
the, the, the, the 4th wall, doesn't it?
There's something about it that is very connected to you.
We kind of interrogate our relationship as we go along.
There is a lot of engagement, audience engagement in
podcasting, which is something Iwant to talk to you about as
well. By the way, it's in the notes.
(12:09):
So I found that very, very interesting.
I think there is a relation there with podcasting and this
idea of biases. I want to share, you know, a bit
of my thinking behind this because I think there's some
engagement missing. I think it's also the content.
(12:31):
Perhaps it might be the field ofcontemporary art itself.
So where can you engage with thepodcasts?
Sorry, of course, I was forgetting the crucial bit of
information. So I don't know how many of you
know, but Spotify is changing quite a bit.
They are trying to be a bit morelike YouTube, hosts platform
(12:55):
competitions, overthrowing each other, each other's platforms.
But Spotify is changing quite a bit.
So they have added videos. You can leave comments under the
episode. There's an area where you can
leave suggestions, ideas, You can just react.
You can congratulate the the podcasters, which is honestly
(13:18):
the feedback I've been having. And thank you so much to those
who leave comments and celebratetheir joy and their pleasure in
listening to the episode. That means a lot.
I can tell you that it may seem ridiculous to you on the other
side of things, but when you putan episode out there, crickets.
(13:39):
You don't know. You don't know how people are
listening. It is incredibly meaningful when
you leave a comment and when youjust say that you loved it or
that you liked it or that a certain angle was innovative,
original, blew your brains out. You know, it just blew your mind
that no, your brains out, sorry,blew your mind.
(14:00):
That is gold. It is the biggest of joys.
So measuring pleasure. So if you could leave comments
on Spotify, Instagram, follow uson Instagram.
I put a lot of little clips in there of exhibition visits and
suggestions. If you're too shy to leave, you
(14:22):
know, public, you know, publiclyread comments, you know, just DM
us and and make some suggestions.
That's that's also great. And in the show's notes, you
have the e-mail, so you can alsowrite to us.
So what else is there? Biography.
So in academic circles, biography, particularly in
(14:43):
visual arts, also in literature,very frowned upon.
You, you mustn't do it. You mustn't.
Which is very interesting in terms of position because it
means that the artwork should speak for itself.
But there are many reasons why Ifeel that it's not such a great
(15:05):
idea. And one of the reasons is
because there is there's a problem with the visual arts
sector. And that's one of the reasons
why I started the podcast, whichis the elitism that some people
feel when they visit exhibitions, when they hear the
(15:30):
discourse about arts and presenting artists as if they
lived in the sort of a crystal tower or in the sort of cloud.
And they just produce these incredible cryptic objects or
images placed in incredibly grandiose sometimes art spaces
(15:54):
or exhibition spaces. It it turns the artwork into
something that is disconnected from an embodied experience.
And I think strategically for me, talking about the artist is
really important. Secondly, because I love
artists. It's as simple as that.
(16:16):
I mean, I don't know why I'm looking for another way of
saying it. That's that is it.
You know, I love and I admire artists.
Artists dedicate their whole lives to creating work, to
communicating. It's their way of communicating
and they dedicate their time to that.
And so of course, embodying and naming artists is really
(16:38):
important. It doesn't mean that it's
deterministic. So what do I mean by that?
It doesn't mean that providing at context, storytelling is a
direct explanation of the arts through the life.
A life isn't going to specifically produce that
(16:58):
artwork. And I have an example.
So going back into Season 1 and Season 2, there were two
Japanese artists that we focusedon the first season, Yoko Ono,
and in the second season, Onkowara.
SO2 Japanese artists, 1 male, another female.
(17:19):
Both artists went through the horrendous experience of the
atomic bomb in Japan, and I refer to that.
But Onkowara had the reaction ofsuddenly retrieving himself from
meaning. He went back to school and he
would constantly say he didn't understand.
(17:40):
And he was embracing of existentialism even more
philosophies that would embrace,you know, the Theatre of the
Absurd, you know, all these philosophies and art movements
which were on the verge of usingwords to kind of strip them of
(18:06):
their meaning as opposed to using words to fill the
experience or the story or the object with meaning.
So for him, it was really a kindof backing away from any
possible explanation. Yoko Ono lived the same
experience, had a completely different reaction to it.
(18:29):
So she had to move away from where she lived, from the big
city, went to the countryside and would spend hours and hours
and hours on the ground, lying on the ground with her brother,
looking at the clouds, trying toimagine and design menus.
And so they would eat in their imagination.
(18:53):
And she discovered the power of imagination as perhaps in the
beginning as a form of escapism,but then as a form of
empowerment and of living something through the sheer
force and energy of the mind. And so I mean quickly, very
(19:15):
quickly explained. And so here the biographic
information is interesting because it does say something
about the methods of each artist.
So on Kowara kept to a repetitive practice that
stripped everything of anecdotesor would use anecdotes
(19:38):
repeatedly as a way of conveyinga sort of raw, energetic,
existential feeling of presence and of being alive.
Completely different reaction. So biographical data is
interesting in as much as we useit in a non deterministic way.
(20:03):
This choice is also a bit strategic because I have a sense
that when you visit exhibitions.And the promotion of the
exhibition especially, I mean, you know, parenthesis, if you
visit exhibitions and you're notused to going into art spaces,
of course you're going to go to the Tate, you're going to go to
(20:24):
the Haywood Gallery, you're going to go to the big museums.
And these big museums have a wayof promoting their exhibitions,
which is always to say major exhibition, major artist,
pioneer in whatever most influential of their generation,
first female, Asian artist 2, etcetera, etcetera.
(20:48):
So you're presented with grandeur, you're presented with
greatness. And suddenly you see in a one or
two exhibitions, or maybe you'rea tourist and you decide to go
to the Tate and you think, OK, Iwas so lucky.
I came to an exhibition of a really important artist.
(21:09):
You visit the exhibition, you don't agree, you don't
understand. You can read the texts, you look
at the art, there's no connection.
And suddenly you feel rejected. You feel removed from that space
because you don't get why that person is so influential, why
(21:29):
that person is the major artist of their generation or the major
exhibition from that specific angle.
And that's why art feels elitistin my opinion.
It's that way of presenting things.
I mean, the tape will always have visitors.
(21:50):
And it's funny because I was told in a master class, I did
again, you know about podcasting, a specific aspect of
podcasting, which was promoting podcasts and doing clips to for
social media to attract new listeners.
And this person said something really interesting, which is
don't be too seductive. Don't be too savvy in in your
(22:15):
marketing because then you're going to bring people into your
podcast and your field or your particular angle who have been
seduced by something that they will not find there.
And she said you can bring the horse to the river, but you
can't make it drink. And it's true, you don't want
(22:36):
people to go and see something but then not deliver what you've
promised. And that's why I think, again,
biographic data just shows you the the artist is just a person.
And the artist is a person who communicates through that
language. That's where they're comfortable
(22:57):
anyway. So in the third season, we will
continue having exhibition discussions with different
guests. So again, this time going back
to this idea and this interaction between an art
insider myself, he will have done the research and the art
(23:19):
outsider. Unless the art outsider wants to
do the research, why not? And so I have a few people lined
up, quite a few new people actually, with different
backgrounds, with different profiles, different age groups.
Biases. You're supposed to say biases.
That's the idea. Then of course, I have guest
(23:41):
interviews. So why do I do those?
Because no one really knows whatthe heck people do in the art
industry. In the visual art industry, you
vaguely know what a curator does.
Obviously an artist gallerist. OK, that makes sense.
But Even so, you know, what are the new challenges of galleries?
(24:03):
Go back to the last episode, listen to Sarah Lekong Sung talk
about her gallery, which has a very specific goal of promoting,
showcasing queer and female artists.
So that's a novelty, you know, in history in the UKI don't know
of any galleries that have done that.
(24:23):
And so there is a response to current times and to the modern
world and the contemporary world.
So you see the outward reflects topics.
And I think that's one of the things also that this format
allows you to do, which is to perhaps, you know, interpret the
(24:44):
artwork, but also send it back to real life, to real topics,
real subjects and and see what the art is, allowing you to
navigate that it you didn't before.
What does it mean to write for anewspaper or a magazine about
(25:04):
art? What does it mean nowadays to be
an art critic? I did touch upon that in the
beginning of the episode. What does it mean to be a
curator? What is an art advisor?
Another episode that you can listen to with Lee Bertinuti.
He explains what she does. You know, I am an art fair
artistic director and still havequestions for her.
(25:25):
I think we would also profit from and benefit from sharing
more things about our challengesbecause mainly one of the things
that really, really, I mean, it's a thought that I have
almost every week is the the amazement, especially if you go
(25:45):
on TikTok, you know, people making fun of performance arts
or abstract art. There's a lot of accounts there,
but also on Instagram and the comments you hear is, oh, and
these people are millionaires. That's what the media is saying
about visual arts is that we're all millionaires and we're all
selling and being paid in the millions, which is just a very,
(26:08):
very small parts. And usually listeners who are in
the art industry and who are listening, you know what I'm
talking about. It's a very small part of us.
And and there's always also the instability of jobs even in art
organizations. You know, art organizations
depend on funding. They in some, a lot of countries
(26:31):
depend on politics and local politics and they depend also on
government money. So, you know, sponsors as well,
you know. So that's an added difficulty.
Nothing is guaranteed. Who would have thought that
Trump would go after universities and museums?
(26:51):
He did. And he fired the director of the
National Gallery in Washington, DC.
There was a whole thing. And then she ended up quitting.
It was actually the National Portrait Gallery in DC.
OK, so guest interviews and I don't do artist interviews and
(27:12):
kudos to the people who do that.Ben Luke is an amazing
interviewer from the podcast a brush with, you know, if you
want to listen to artist interviews, that's I think for
me is one of the the most engaging ones.
They don't make for a Sonic experience, for an audio
experience that is compelling assometimes, you know, listening
(27:33):
to these serial episodes about aparticular topic.
But most of all also because that's a tapped market.
I mean, there are so many great artist interviews out there.
This is not to say that I'm not interesting interested in
collaborating with artists, but I so one of the things to come
probably in the third season, I'm still working with three
(27:54):
artists to see where that leads me.
So a specific format where there's a collaboration.
So there may be an epistolary relationship with the artist
where I read my letter, they read their letter, some sound
suggestions, texts to read, stories to tell.
I don't know, you know, a creative format maybe that will
(28:17):
allow the artist to expand creatively and to also talk to
also have a voice. But maybe framed in the way
where they're not, they don't have that feeling of being
pinned down suddenly. So that's one of the other
formats that I want to bring in.I will continue with the shorter
episodes where I share parts of my lectures or texts that I'm
(28:40):
working on and that I adapt to an audio format.
So what else is there? What haven't I said?
And then I'm going to do anothertype of episode, which is a
focus on a theme and an angle, again in conversational form,
but this time with specialists. So specifically on purpose,
(29:01):
bringing people who are specialized in a in a specific
topic and trying to bring it home.
For example, the history of exhibitions.
Exhibitions have a very recent thing.
You know, we complain that people are not into it.
You know, they think it's, you have to be knowledgeable to go
put in some ways, you know, thisis there.
(29:22):
There isn't a huge tradition of exhibition going and exhibition
visiting and exhibition making. Of course, the counterexample
would be the prehistoric caves. First exhibitions.
Who knows? All right, so I think we're
coming to the end of the episodeand what else can I tell you?
So perhaps, what do you, what did I write in my notes?
(29:47):
Yeah, maybe letting you know howthis podcast works.
The first thing to know is that,as I said before, this is an
independent podcast. So I don't belong to any
platform of any kind, radio or any distributing and paying
(30:08):
platform, obviously not affiliated to a magazine or a
newspaper. I'm absolutely, completely
independent. I started it on my own and the
first season was a sort of a test pilot.
I wanted to know if it was a pleasure that I would measure
(30:31):
positively and it was. And also if you would be
engaging with it, if you know ifif I would have an audience
basically. And I did.
So all good. Continued doing it, continued
really doing the work. And so one of the things that I
(30:52):
think I've talked across this episode and that I really want
to bring home is Marshall Mcluhan.
Not theorists of last century, famous for saying the medium is
the message. The medium really is the
(31:12):
message. And what does he mean by that?
He means that the podcast as it is, as a format, the way it's
delivered, the way it's listenedto and the way it's produced.
So the whole technology makes itwhat it is.
And so the message delivered is in the technology itself.
And that's what I really loved about it because there is this
(31:39):
exchange and there is this malleability of the format.
So you will have noticed that insome episodes, maybe I forgot
the break, maybe the episode wastoo long to go for a break and
to even use those 3 minutes. But that's fine.
You know that we are not contained by a very rigid
(32:02):
structure. And I think that that's the, and
I thought at the time when I thought of doing the podcast
that that was the best medium tothe mystify the art field and
exhibitions and art and visual arts and contemporary art and
artists. Because this informal
(32:24):
relationship that we have myselfwith you, dear, dear, dearest
listener, is that we understand each other.
We're here for each other. You support me, I support you,
you understand the challenges and I deliver the best content
that I can deliver. And on that note, what I want to
(32:49):
share with you is how I work. The recording is about two
hours, very often much more thanthat.
So editing takes at least 8 hours.
So it's a huge yes. Foggly maybe, I don't know, who
knows? I mean, the Italians do.
(33:10):
Your body, your body. Sorry.
I'm going to cut knowing that toget to the episode, I will have
done a good four hours of research.
It's the specific informations that you need to get when you're
(33:31):
preparing an episode on an artist, on or on a specific
topic or on the artist that brings specific movements,
specific theories that I also have to investigate or revisit.
So another thing that I would love you to pay attention to if
(33:51):
you're still listening, because I'm not sure this episode is
going to get through to a lot ofpeople, but the ones who are
interested, I think, you know, if you're a bit geeky, like I am
a bit nerdy, I think you're a bit curious, right?
So for those who are still here,another thing that is really
time consuming in podcasting is all the information that goes
(34:13):
with the episode. So you don't just drop an
episode. There's hours and hours of
writing show notes correcting the thankfully AI produced
transcript of the of each episode.
But you have to correct it. I've been having a conversation
(34:35):
with one of my sons about the dangers of AI, the menacing
presence of AI, and the menacing, successful and highly
performative capacity of AI thatwill replace people in several
industries. But when it comes to certain
(34:58):
more contained uses of AI, it isso helpful.
The argument against AI it's that it's learning and it will
surpass our capacities very, very quickly.
In here it's impossible because the way we pronounce words, not
everyone is has English as theirfirst language as is my case.
(35:22):
And in my Co host, guest Co host, my people I interview.
And also there's different accents.
Sometimes we speak quickly, sometimes we are a bit muffly
and mumbly. And so the AI cannot understand
everything as your ear can't understand everything.
So you need to go over the transcript, you know, regardless
(35:45):
of how perfect the AI is going to become, closing parentheses,
I need to go over the captions. The captions, you know, confuse
creating with curating, curatingwith creating.
So I need to correct all the time.
And so that's the first time, very long time.
Can you imagine an hour and a half of episode correcting every
(36:08):
sentence of the transcript? So that's a lot of time.
Then you have to produce the show's notes.
The show's notes are really interesting because you have the
situation of the algorithm whichworks with keywords.
So you have to use keywords. Basically you have to speak
computer speak, algorithm speak.And so you have to write show
(36:30):
notes that are interesting for people to read, but there are
identifiable by the the browsersand the algorithms.
It's hard to write them. You're so tired of editing,
You're so tired of correcting the transcript, thinking what
clips you're going to do, and then you have to write that damn
(36:54):
horrible text that now is also problematic if you're want to be
discovered through your website because you also have a website
for the podcast. And so now chat bots are being
used incrementally. So very soon Google is going to
be set aside and we will be asking questions to an AI that
(37:19):
will deliver us content. You can just say, what are the
independent podcasts about visual arts?
And the AI is going to tell you,oh, there's this.
And then describe what they do. And then you'll see, oh, but
these are, I don't know what single person episodes and I
want conversation. So you say, oh, but can you find
the ones that are conversational?
(37:40):
And then you can say, oh, but can you find the ones that are
more experimental? And then it will deliver.
So it is a conversation that youhave and you have to adapt your
show's notes for your website with chatbot speak and no longer
algorithmic speak. So we're already on two
different texts, but then you have YouTube, but then the
(38:02):
show's notes cannot be the same.So third time writing your
show's notes and so on and so on.
Instagram, blue sky, whatever, TikTok whatever.
Such a huge time consuming enterprise to drop one single
episode. It's at least 20 hours of work
(38:25):
per week. So in the US, quite a few
research based independent podcasters earn quite a
substantial amount of money in part of their income through
podcasting. And that's because in the US
there is this mentality of paying for what you consume.
(38:47):
It's a very simple mentality that we do not have in Europe.
So here podcasting is a bit frowned upon, confused with
social media, confused with influencing, which honestly, I
don't know why, but some people have told me that.
And so when you say that you're podcasting, people presume that
(39:13):
you're either doing it because it's a hobby.
And again, the visual arts sector is plagued with people
thinking that what you do is a hobby.
You have no idea. And the mentality here, and I
have the same I'm again, not extracting myself from the
conversation. I'm not leaving the chat.
I'm I'm firmly in it. We will more willingly pay for
(39:40):
an exceptional pleasure then we will pay for the things that we
use every day, such as online newspapers, such as available
content out there in archives. So the idea is that probably
it's because it's not a direct thing.
You don't click on a button and that's it, you've paid for it.
(40:01):
You have to go to the show's notes, you have to go to the
website and then decide how muchyou want to give and understand
what it means to have a membership.
And so paying every month, it's not something that is yet
understood as something that makes sense.
(40:23):
That is called for that is deserved by the person who's
putting the content out there and also accessible it might be
in the future. So the whole podcasting 2 point
O that I'm not going to talk about is creating platforms.
One of them is called true fans.You can go there.
(40:43):
You can either use Bitcoin or your currency and you can define
how much you want to pay per minute of your listens.
And so it's a bit like Spotify used to be for musicians, which
was that as soon as you played something that they would earn
0.001 P per minute. Apparently now it has changed
(41:08):
for musicians as well. But you must know that on
Spotify, which is my host platform, I'm not entitled to
ads and to monetization because I don't have enough listeners.
And that's normal. You know, niche podcasts like
mine, young podcasts, I don't, Ihaven't had time together a huge
audience. There's a bunch of you, but not
(41:30):
like the 10,000 an episode that I would need to monetize through
ads. And second thing, I don't want
to have ads on my podcast. If I do, and when I do, which I
will probably have to, I want them to make sense for the
industry and I want them to be helpful and to choose the right
(41:51):
people to place their ads in thepodcast.
In exhibition Estes, let's imagine if 100 people paid £1.00
per episode. So amongst the people who listen
to the episodes, each time I would have £100 per episode.
I have two episodes in the month.
So 200 lbs. Imagine if you paid 2 lbs.
(42:17):
Double that. Imagine 1000 people paid.
And the idea is not only to earnmoney.
Obviously this is hard work. This is what I studied for, what
I paid university for. When I paid my PhD, well, then I
had a scholarship, but I did payfor a substantial amount of my
PhD. There's a Latin saying in cauda
venenum. So the poison comes in the tail,
(42:40):
as in the scorpion's tale, but also at the end of a letter or
at the end of an episode. I'm not being a negative here.
I'm really being open and sharing how the industry works,
what we're talking about in the background and just letting you
know that apart from a few of you who are, who have been
really nice and kind and I've had donations.
(43:01):
Thank you so much to those who have donated one or two
memberships. I don't want to have to pay to
work. I don't.
You the the people who contribute have allowed me to
not pay to do a podcast, which is I think the minimum.
But what I would love to do morethan earn a living from this,
(43:24):
which of course amazing. If I can get some of my income
from the podcast, great. But I would love to create jobs.
I would love to hire someone. I would love to make it possible
in the industry to have independent initiatives that
have enough support from the consumer.
(43:45):
Sorry, we're we are in the capitalist society from the
listener, from the audience, so that this industry can thrive
and can create work. All right, so measured the
pleasure, haven't we? Stay tuned.
Don't forget summer episodes andthe next brand new season in
(44:08):
September of 2025 until June 2026.
That's going to be the new season.
Season 3 take care. Bye bye.
Thank you.
I'm Joanna Pierre Nevis, your host, and this is exhibitionist
this. I'm an independent writer and
curator with a wide-ranging 2 decades career in contemporary
art, from commercial galleries to art fairs, from research to
curating, from Lisbon to London through Paris.
(00:28):
But when I'm asked what I do outside the out world, the
inevitable reaction is, oh, I don't know anything about
contemporary art. Ouch.
So call it a midlife crisis, call it arrogance, but I gave
myself the task of trying to fill that gap with Co host
conversation episodes centered around a genuine exchange of
(00:51):
thoughts, feelings and precious context around solo exhibitions,
interviews and special episodes based on a particular topic to
keep you alert and on your toes.If you want to read further into
some of the topics discussed in the episodes and more, you can
(01:11):
also find me on sub stack under my name, Joanna Pyroneves.
All right, hello, hello, and welcome to the last episode of
season two. Yes, this is the last episode,
and it has a weird title. It's called a Measure Pleasure,
(01:33):
and I'll tell you why. So I'm going to look back into
the reasons why I decided to do the podcasts.
I'm going to share a few thoughts that I don't think I've
ever shared with you and to explain my thinking behind each
format, behind the very idea of podcasting in this way and
(01:57):
designing the content that I've designed.
But I'm also going to look into the future.
So two things. Firstly, the season's over, but
I will be dropping a few specialor summer special episodes where
I will be testing some formats or also jumping on occasions on
(02:17):
opportunities that were too goodto say no to.
Secondly, I'm also going to introduce the third season.
So we believe it or not, we're going into the third season and
I am really happy to share the first thing, which is that I
counted all the episodes, there's 33 of them.
(02:38):
So if you'll allow me, I am selfcongratulating here, I am
celebratory. I am celebrating this
substantial amount of recording,of editing, of content, of
sharing, of chatting, of conversing, exchanging ideas,
(02:59):
and mostly of trying to deliver artistic experiences,
information, feelings, critical thinking around arts.
And thanks to arts, without exhibitions, without artists and
their work, there wouldn't be exhibitionists, right?
(03:22):
So let's start this. The first thing I want to share
with you is an event I went to. I think podcasting is in a
transitional phase. Some people don't quite know how
to handle it. It's not radio, it's not TV, but
you can watch it because now there's video.
And I don't think a lot of you, dear listeners, and apologies
(03:45):
for saying this, realize the work that is behind it, the
technological challenges, softwares are changing, the
format itself is changing. Now there's video, for example,
I had to move from being a strictly audio experience to
having video sound on offer. So that's why I decided to go to
(04:14):
the IWPA, the International Women Podcast Awards that took
place last week. And dear listener, I'm going to
be very, very candid with you and tell you that Samantha
Baines was an amazing presenter,by the way.
Just just wanted to say that I was expecting to feel a green
(04:40):
with envy, you know, to look at all those women who have teams,
who have editors, who have producers.
Literally, I have had dreams that I had a producer.
So I was really expecting at some point to think, OK, it's
time to go home. You've done this, you know,
congratulate yourself for havingbeen to an event of the
(05:02):
industry, but now it's time to grab some chips and go home and
drown your sorrows. Well, no, it was not at all like
that. These are the independent
podcast awards and of course, women, trans women, non binary
inclusive. That also contributed to warm
(05:26):
Michael Hart in the UK. You never know.
You never know what kind of feminism you're going to be
interacting with. And this was right up my alley.
I was very happy to see all thatinclusivity and that was really
heartwarming. But the most important thing of
(05:47):
the event was the non hierarchical aspect of it.
The values of feminism really correspond to podcasting.
So podcasting is accessible. It is less formal than ATV show
or then radio. It has its own rules, of course,
(06:09):
and there are hierarchies everywhere.
If not for the fact that some people have teams and others
don't. Some people have means, others
don't. Some podcasts are much easier to
fundraise for than others. Some podcasts are immediately
supported by their listeners, others aren't.
So of course there are hierarchies, but I would say
(06:30):
they're organic. And so we were all talking to
one another and I was really blown away by the transparency
of everyone. We were not hiding numbers, We
were not hiding or fudging our follower numbers on social
media. It was with huge transparency
(06:51):
that we had really interesting conversations and that we
exchanged tips with each other. I wanted to share this with you
because I asked myself what is this profile that I have?
The feminism, inclusivity and the non hierarchical aspect.
And this has implications in theway I introduce the artists and
(07:15):
also the way I think critically about an exhibition, about an
artwork, about a particular context in which an exhibition
is organized or a solo exhibition is delivered to
audiences. And of course I am going to
check, I'm going to see, OK, is someone excluded from this?
(07:36):
Why is this person here? From what platform are they
speaking? How comfortable are they in this
platform? These are concerns I have.
I don't think that the figure ofthe art critic is contemporary
anymore. I think it's quite obsolete
because the art critics supposedly is this persona, this
(07:59):
neutral, unbiased entity giving an opinion.
Nonetheless, of course it is a specialist's opinion.
But you know, critics had a lot of power back in the day, they
don't anymore. So that is the first symptom,
isn't it? Before critics could break
someone's reputation. I do value critical thinking
(08:22):
rather than saying from the get go I like it or I don't, which
odd critics don't do of course either, but underlyingly so they
do. So for me, the positioning is
very different. The difference being that, and
this is really interesting, I was listening to a podcast that
(08:43):
spoke exactly about the same thing.
So I'm going to draw a parallel here.
We are bringing a bias and I'm interested in what bias you
bring and I'm interested in making you aware of it.
So, for example, in the Dido Moriyama episodes in the first
season, I had to explain right off the bat a very specific bias
(09:09):
I have, which is that I have a hard time with photography.
You know, he talks of himself asa hunter, which, you know, is an
attitude. And so that turns the subject
matter of his photographs praise.
And in some ways, he talked about that poster of it's a
(09:31):
diagonal of torsos of male torsos bathing in the sun.
It's a beautiful photograph. And I kind of think, what if it
was me in that photo? It's.
But by talking about it and by having to research the artist, I
was able to expand and to question and to kind of fight my
(09:58):
bias a little bit and to be ableto position myself again within
it with the information that I brought into it.
So I was listening to a show called Creators, which is
specifically for podcasters and for a specific kind of
podcasting called 2 Point. O will not go into it.
(10:22):
If you want to research it, do because it's really interesting
and it might be, or at least some aspects of it, the future
of the industry. And so this podcast is led by
the lovely Claire Waite Brown, who interviewed me for it and
Sam Sethi in the True Fans platform.
(10:42):
And they were chatting with a podcaster.
So the purpose of these interviews is to situate these
new developments in podcasting, but also to ask podcasters about
their struggles, their successesand how they operate, you know,
podcasting in general. And so they were interviewing
(11:04):
Fariba Nawa. He was an investigative
journalist and she has a podcastthat sounds incredible.
I'm, I'm following her now called Onspec.
She's an investigative journalist, right?
And nevertheless, she says that the specificity of On Spec, her
podcast, is that she's interested in working with
(11:26):
people, bringing topics, investigation topics where they
have or that they're part of. So they bring their bias, but
they announce it. And I thought that was so
interesting. And I'm wondering if that's
specific to podcasting because podcasting kind of breaks the,
(11:47):
the, the, the, the 4th wall, doesn't it?
There's something about it that is very connected to you.
We kind of interrogate our relationship as we go along.
There is a lot of engagement, audience engagement in
podcasting, which is something Iwant to talk to you about as
well. By the way, it's in the notes.
(12:09):
So I found that very, very interesting.
I think there is a relation there with podcasting and this
idea of biases. I want to share, you know, a bit
of my thinking behind this because I think there's some
engagement missing. I think it's also the content.
(12:31):
Perhaps it might be the field ofcontemporary art itself.
So where can you engage with thepodcasts?
Sorry, of course, I was forgetting the crucial bit of
information. So I don't know how many of you
know, but Spotify is changing quite a bit.
They are trying to be a bit morelike YouTube, hosts platform
(12:55):
competitions, overthrowing each other, each other's platforms.
But Spotify is changing quite a bit.
So they have added videos. You can leave comments under the
episode. There's an area where you can
leave suggestions, ideas, You can just react.
You can congratulate the the podcasters, which is honestly
(13:18):
the feedback I've been having. And thank you so much to those
who leave comments and celebratetheir joy and their pleasure in
listening to the episode. That means a lot.
I can tell you that it may seem ridiculous to you on the other
side of things, but when you putan episode out there, crickets.
(13:39):
You don't know. You don't know how people are
listening. It is incredibly meaningful when
you leave a comment and when youjust say that you loved it or
that you liked it or that a certain angle was innovative,
original, blew your brains out. You know, it just blew your mind
that no, your brains out, sorry,blew your mind.
(14:00):
That is gold. It is the biggest of joys.
So measuring pleasure. So if you could leave comments
on Spotify, Instagram, follow uson Instagram.
I put a lot of little clips in there of exhibition visits and
suggestions. If you're too shy to leave, you
(14:22):
know, public, you know, publiclyread comments, you know, just DM
us and and make some suggestions.
That's that's also great. And in the show's notes, you
have the e-mail, so you can alsowrite to us.
So what else is there? Biography.
So in academic circles, biography, particularly in
(14:43):
visual arts, also in literature,very frowned upon.
You, you mustn't do it. You mustn't.
Which is very interesting in terms of position because it
means that the artwork should speak for itself.
But there are many reasons why Ifeel that it's not such a great
(15:05):
idea. And one of the reasons is
because there is there's a problem with the visual arts
sector. And that's one of the reasons
why I started the podcast, whichis the elitism that some people
feel when they visit exhibitions, when they hear the
(15:30):
discourse about arts and presenting artists as if they
lived in the sort of a crystal tower or in the sort of cloud.
And they just produce these incredible cryptic objects or
images placed in incredibly grandiose sometimes art spaces
(15:54):
or exhibition spaces. It it turns the artwork into
something that is disconnected from an embodied experience.
And I think strategically for me, talking about the artist is
really important. Secondly, because I love
artists. It's as simple as that.
(16:16):
I mean, I don't know why I'm looking for another way of
saying it. That's that is it.
You know, I love and I admire artists.
Artists dedicate their whole lives to creating work, to
communicating. It's their way of communicating
and they dedicate their time to that.
And so of course, embodying and naming artists is really
(16:38):
important. It doesn't mean that it's
deterministic. So what do I mean by that?
It doesn't mean that providing at context, storytelling is a
direct explanation of the arts through the life.
A life isn't going to specifically produce that
(16:58):
artwork. And I have an example.
So going back into Season 1 and Season 2, there were two
Japanese artists that we focusedon the first season, Yoko Ono,
and in the second season, Onkowara.
SO2 Japanese artists, 1 male, another female.
(17:19):
Both artists went through the horrendous experience of the
atomic bomb in Japan, and I refer to that.
But Onkowara had the reaction ofsuddenly retrieving himself from
meaning. He went back to school and he
would constantly say he didn't understand.
(17:40):
And he was embracing of existentialism even more
philosophies that would embrace,you know, the Theatre of the
Absurd, you know, all these philosophies and art movements
which were on the verge of usingwords to kind of strip them of
(18:06):
their meaning as opposed to using words to fill the
experience or the story or the object with meaning.
So for him, it was really a kindof backing away from any
possible explanation. Yoko Ono lived the same
experience, had a completely different reaction to it.
(18:29):
So she had to move away from where she lived, from the big
city, went to the countryside and would spend hours and hours
and hours on the ground, lying on the ground with her brother,
looking at the clouds, trying toimagine and design menus.
And so they would eat in their imagination.
(18:53):
And she discovered the power of imagination as perhaps in the
beginning as a form of escapism,but then as a form of
empowerment and of living something through the sheer
force and energy of the mind. And so I mean quickly, very
(19:15):
quickly explained. And so here the biographic
information is interesting because it does say something
about the methods of each artist.
So on Kowara kept to a repetitive practice that
stripped everything of anecdotesor would use anecdotes
(19:38):
repeatedly as a way of conveyinga sort of raw, energetic,
existential feeling of presence and of being alive.
Completely different reaction. So biographical data is
interesting in as much as we useit in a non deterministic way.
(20:03):
This choice is also a bit strategic because I have a sense
that when you visit exhibitions.And the promotion of the
exhibition especially, I mean, you know, parenthesis, if you
visit exhibitions and you're notused to going into art spaces,
of course you're going to go to the Tate, you're going to go to
(20:24):
the Haywood Gallery, you're going to go to the big museums.
And these big museums have a wayof promoting their exhibitions,
which is always to say major exhibition, major artist,
pioneer in whatever most influential of their generation,
first female, Asian artist 2, etcetera, etcetera.
(20:48):
So you're presented with grandeur, you're presented with
greatness. And suddenly you see in a one or
two exhibitions, or maybe you'rea tourist and you decide to go
to the Tate and you think, OK, Iwas so lucky.
I came to an exhibition of a really important artist.
(21:09):
You visit the exhibition, you don't agree, you don't
understand. You can read the texts, you look
at the art, there's no connection.
And suddenly you feel rejected. You feel removed from that space
because you don't get why that person is so influential, why
(21:29):
that person is the major artist of their generation or the major
exhibition from that specific angle.
And that's why art feels elitistin my opinion.
It's that way of presenting things.
I mean, the tape will always have visitors.
(21:50):
And it's funny because I was told in a master class, I did
again, you know about podcasting, a specific aspect of
podcasting, which was promoting podcasts and doing clips to for
social media to attract new listeners.
And this person said something really interesting, which is
don't be too seductive. Don't be too savvy in in your
(22:15):
marketing because then you're going to bring people into your
podcast and your field or your particular angle who have been
seduced by something that they will not find there.
And she said you can bring the horse to the river, but you
can't make it drink. And it's true, you don't want
(22:36):
people to go and see something but then not deliver what you've
promised. And that's why I think, again,
biographic data just shows you the the artist is just a person.
And the artist is a person who communicates through that
language. That's where they're comfortable
(22:57):
anyway. So in the third season, we will
continue having exhibition discussions with different
guests. So again, this time going back
to this idea and this interaction between an art
insider myself, he will have done the research and the art
(23:19):
outsider. Unless the art outsider wants to
do the research, why not? And so I have a few people lined
up, quite a few new people actually, with different
backgrounds, with different profiles, different age groups.
Biases. You're supposed to say biases.
That's the idea. Then of course, I have guest
(23:41):
interviews. So why do I do those?
Because no one really knows whatthe heck people do in the art
industry. In the visual art industry, you
vaguely know what a curator does.
Obviously an artist gallerist. OK, that makes sense.
But Even so, you know, what are the new challenges of galleries?
(24:03):
Go back to the last episode, listen to Sarah Lekong Sung talk
about her gallery, which has a very specific goal of promoting,
showcasing queer and female artists.
So that's a novelty, you know, in history in the UKI don't know
of any galleries that have done that.
(24:23):
And so there is a response to current times and to the modern
world and the contemporary world.
So you see the outward reflects topics.
And I think that's one of the things also that this format
allows you to do, which is to perhaps, you know, interpret the
(24:44):
artwork, but also send it back to real life, to real topics,
real subjects and and see what the art is, allowing you to
navigate that it you didn't before.
What does it mean to write for anewspaper or a magazine about
(25:04):
art? What does it mean nowadays to be
an art critic? I did touch upon that in the
beginning of the episode. What does it mean to be a
curator? What is an art advisor?
Another episode that you can listen to with Lee Bertinuti.
He explains what she does. You know, I am an art fair
artistic director and still havequestions for her.
(25:25):
I think we would also profit from and benefit from sharing
more things about our challengesbecause mainly one of the things
that really, really, I mean, it's a thought that I have
almost every week is the the amazement, especially if you go
(25:45):
on TikTok, you know, people making fun of performance arts
or abstract art. There's a lot of accounts there,
but also on Instagram and the comments you hear is, oh, and
these people are millionaires. That's what the media is saying
about visual arts is that we're all millionaires and we're all
selling and being paid in the millions, which is just a very,
(26:08):
very small parts. And usually listeners who are in
the art industry and who are listening, you know what I'm
talking about. It's a very small part of us.
And and there's always also the instability of jobs even in art
organizations. You know, art organizations
depend on funding. They in some, a lot of countries
(26:31):
depend on politics and local politics and they depend also on
government money. So, you know, sponsors as well,
you know. So that's an added difficulty.
Nothing is guaranteed. Who would have thought that
Trump would go after universities and museums?
(26:51):
He did. And he fired the director of the
National Gallery in Washington, DC.
There was a whole thing. And then she ended up quitting.
It was actually the National Portrait Gallery in DC.
OK, so guest interviews and I don't do artist interviews and
(27:12):
kudos to the people who do that.Ben Luke is an amazing
interviewer from the podcast a brush with, you know, if you
want to listen to artist interviews, that's I think for
me is one of the the most engaging ones.
They don't make for a Sonic experience, for an audio
experience that is compelling assometimes, you know, listening
(27:33):
to these serial episodes about aparticular topic.
But most of all also because that's a tapped market.
I mean, there are so many great artist interviews out there.
This is not to say that I'm not interesting interested in
collaborating with artists, but I so one of the things to come
probably in the third season, I'm still working with three
(27:54):
artists to see where that leads me.
So a specific format where there's a collaboration.
So there may be an epistolary relationship with the artist
where I read my letter, they read their letter, some sound
suggestions, texts to read, stories to tell.
I don't know, you know, a creative format maybe that will
(28:17):
allow the artist to expand creatively and to also talk to
also have a voice. But maybe framed in the way
where they're not, they don't have that feeling of being
pinned down suddenly. So that's one of the other
formats that I want to bring in.I will continue with the shorter
episodes where I share parts of my lectures or texts that I'm
(28:40):
working on and that I adapt to an audio format.
So what else is there? What haven't I said?
And then I'm going to do anothertype of episode, which is a
focus on a theme and an angle, again in conversational form,
but this time with specialists. So specifically on purpose,
(29:01):
bringing people who are specialized in a in a specific
topic and trying to bring it home.
For example, the history of exhibitions.
Exhibitions have a very recent thing.
You know, we complain that people are not into it.
You know, they think it's, you have to be knowledgeable to go
put in some ways, you know, thisis there.
(29:22):
There isn't a huge tradition of exhibition going and exhibition
visiting and exhibition making. Of course, the counterexample
would be the prehistoric caves. First exhibitions.
Who knows? All right, so I think we're
coming to the end of the episodeand what else can I tell you?
So perhaps, what do you, what did I write in my notes?
(29:47):
Yeah, maybe letting you know howthis podcast works.
The first thing to know is that,as I said before, this is an
independent podcast. So I don't belong to any
platform of any kind, radio or any distributing and paying
(30:08):
platform, obviously not affiliated to a magazine or a
newspaper. I'm absolutely, completely
independent. I started it on my own and the
first season was a sort of a test pilot.
I wanted to know if it was a pleasure that I would measure
(30:31):
positively and it was. And also if you would be
engaging with it, if you know ifif I would have an audience
basically. And I did.
So all good. Continued doing it, continued
really doing the work. And so one of the things that I
(30:52):
think I've talked across this episode and that I really want
to bring home is Marshall Mcluhan.
Not theorists of last century, famous for saying the medium is
the message. The medium really is the
(31:12):
message. And what does he mean by that?
He means that the podcast as it is, as a format, the way it's
delivered, the way it's listenedto and the way it's produced.
So the whole technology makes itwhat it is.
And so the message delivered is in the technology itself.
And that's what I really loved about it because there is this
(31:39):
exchange and there is this malleability of the format.
So you will have noticed that insome episodes, maybe I forgot
the break, maybe the episode wastoo long to go for a break and
to even use those 3 minutes. But that's fine.
You know that we are not contained by a very rigid
(32:02):
structure. And I think that that's the, and
I thought at the time when I thought of doing the podcast
that that was the best medium tothe mystify the art field and
exhibitions and art and visual arts and contemporary art and
artists. Because this informal
(32:24):
relationship that we have myselfwith you, dear, dear, dearest
listener, is that we understand each other.
We're here for each other. You support me, I support you,
you understand the challenges and I deliver the best content
that I can deliver. And on that note, what I want to
(32:49):
share with you is how I work. The recording is about two
hours, very often much more thanthat.
So editing takes at least 8 hours.
So it's a huge yes. Foggly maybe, I don't know, who
knows? I mean, the Italians do.
(33:10):
Your body, your body. Sorry.
I'm going to cut knowing that toget to the episode, I will have
done a good four hours of research.
It's the specific informations that you need to get when you're
(33:31):
preparing an episode on an artist, on or on a specific
topic or on the artist that brings specific movements,
specific theories that I also have to investigate or revisit.
So another thing that I would love you to pay attention to if
(33:51):
you're still listening, because I'm not sure this episode is
going to get through to a lot ofpeople, but the ones who are
interested, I think, you know, if you're a bit geeky, like I am
a bit nerdy, I think you're a bit curious, right?
So for those who are still here,another thing that is really
time consuming in podcasting is all the information that goes
(34:13):
with the episode. So you don't just drop an
episode. There's hours and hours of
writing show notes correcting the thankfully AI produced
transcript of the of each episode.
But you have to correct it. I've been having a conversation
(34:35):
with one of my sons about the dangers of AI, the menacing
presence of AI, and the menacing, successful and highly
performative capacity of AI thatwill replace people in several
industries. But when it comes to certain
(34:58):
more contained uses of AI, it isso helpful.
The argument against AI it's that it's learning and it will
surpass our capacities very, very quickly.
In here it's impossible because the way we pronounce words, not
everyone is has English as theirfirst language as is my case.
(35:22):
And in my Co host, guest Co host, my people I interview.
And also there's different accents.
Sometimes we speak quickly, sometimes we are a bit muffly
and mumbly. And so the AI cannot understand
everything as your ear can't understand everything.
So you need to go over the transcript, you know, regardless
(35:45):
of how perfect the AI is going to become, closing parentheses,
I need to go over the captions. The captions, you know, confuse
creating with curating, curatingwith creating.
So I need to correct all the time.
And so that's the first time, very long time.
Can you imagine an hour and a half of episode correcting every
(36:08):
sentence of the transcript? So that's a lot of time.
Then you have to produce the show's notes.
The show's notes are really interesting because you have the
situation of the algorithm whichworks with keywords.
So you have to use keywords. Basically you have to speak
computer speak, algorithm speak.And so you have to write show
(36:30):
notes that are interesting for people to read, but there are
identifiable by the the browsersand the algorithms.
It's hard to write them. You're so tired of editing,
You're so tired of correcting the transcript, thinking what
clips you're going to do, and then you have to write that damn
(36:54):
horrible text that now is also problematic if you're want to be
discovered through your website because you also have a website
for the podcast. And so now chat bots are being
used incrementally. So very soon Google is going to
be set aside and we will be asking questions to an AI that
(37:19):
will deliver us content. You can just say, what are the
independent podcasts about visual arts?
And the AI is going to tell you,oh, there's this.
And then describe what they do. And then you'll see, oh, but
these are, I don't know what single person episodes and I
want conversation. So you say, oh, but can you find
the ones that are conversational?
(37:40):
And then you can say, oh, but can you find the ones that are
more experimental? And then it will deliver.
So it is a conversation that youhave and you have to adapt your
show's notes for your website with chatbot speak and no longer
algorithmic speak. So we're already on two
different texts, but then you have YouTube, but then the
(38:02):
show's notes cannot be the same.So third time writing your
show's notes and so on and so on.
Instagram, blue sky, whatever, TikTok whatever.
Such a huge time consuming enterprise to drop one single
episode. It's at least 20 hours of work
(38:25):
per week. So in the US, quite a few
research based independent podcasters earn quite a
substantial amount of money in part of their income through
podcasting. And that's because in the US
there is this mentality of paying for what you consume.
(38:47):
It's a very simple mentality that we do not have in Europe.
So here podcasting is a bit frowned upon, confused with
social media, confused with influencing, which honestly, I
don't know why, but some people have told me that.
And so when you say that you're podcasting, people presume that
(39:13):
you're either doing it because it's a hobby.
And again, the visual arts sector is plagued with people
thinking that what you do is a hobby.
You have no idea. And the mentality here, and I
have the same I'm again, not extracting myself from the
conversation. I'm not leaving the chat.
I'm I'm firmly in it. We will more willingly pay for
(39:40):
an exceptional pleasure then we will pay for the things that we
use every day, such as online newspapers, such as available
content out there in archives. So the idea is that probably
it's because it's not a direct thing.
You don't click on a button and that's it, you've paid for it.
(40:01):
You have to go to the show's notes, you have to go to the
website and then decide how muchyou want to give and understand
what it means to have a membership.
And so paying every month, it's not something that is yet
understood as something that makes sense.
(40:23):
That is called for that is deserved by the person who's
putting the content out there and also accessible it might be
in the future. So the whole podcasting 2 point
O that I'm not going to talk about is creating platforms.
One of them is called true fans.You can go there.
(40:43):
You can either use Bitcoin or your currency and you can define
how much you want to pay per minute of your listens.
And so it's a bit like Spotify used to be for musicians, which
was that as soon as you played something that they would earn
0.001 P per minute. Apparently now it has changed
(41:08):
for musicians as well. But you must know that on
Spotify, which is my host platform, I'm not entitled to
ads and to monetization because I don't have enough listeners.
And that's normal. You know, niche podcasts like
mine, young podcasts, I don't, Ihaven't had time together a huge
audience. There's a bunch of you, but not
(41:30):
like the 10,000 an episode that I would need to monetize through
ads. And second thing, I don't want
to have ads on my podcast. If I do, and when I do, which I
will probably have to, I want them to make sense for the
industry and I want them to be helpful and to choose the right
(41:51):
people to place their ads in thepodcast.
In exhibition Estes, let's imagine if 100 people paid £1.00
per episode. So amongst the people who listen
to the episodes, each time I would have £100 per episode.
I have two episodes in the month.
So 200 lbs. Imagine if you paid 2 lbs.
(42:17):
Double that. Imagine 1000 people paid.
And the idea is not only to earnmoney.
Obviously this is hard work. This is what I studied for, what
I paid university for. When I paid my PhD, well, then I
had a scholarship, but I did payfor a substantial amount of my
PhD. There's a Latin saying in cauda
venenum. So the poison comes in the tail,
(42:40):
as in the scorpion's tale, but also at the end of a letter or
at the end of an episode. I'm not being a negative here.
I'm really being open and sharing how the industry works,
what we're talking about in the background and just letting you
know that apart from a few of you who are, who have been
really nice and kind and I've had donations.
(43:01):
Thank you so much to those who have donated one or two
memberships. I don't want to have to pay to
work. I don't.
You the the people who contribute have allowed me to
not pay to do a podcast, which is I think the minimum.
But what I would love to do morethan earn a living from this,
(43:24):
which of course amazing. If I can get some of my income
from the podcast, great. But I would love to create jobs.
I would love to hire someone. I would love to make it possible
in the industry to have independent initiatives that
have enough support from the consumer.
(43:45):
Sorry, we're we are in the capitalist society from the
listener, from the audience, so that this industry can thrive
and can create work. All right, so measured the
pleasure, haven't we? Stay tuned.
Don't forget summer episodes andthe next brand new season in
(44:08):
September of 2025 until June 2026.
That's going to be the new season.
Season 3 take care. Bye bye.
Thank you.
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