January 27, 2025 • 34 mins
Have you ever caught yourself smirking when someone who sped past you on the highway gets pulled over? We've all felt that intriguing twinge of satisfaction at another's misfortune, and in this episode of the Exhorter podcast, we explore the curious emotion of schadenfreude. Through personal anecdotes and pop culture nods like Homer Simpson's envy-fueled glee, we examine how this complex feeling manifests in daily life and question whether it's inherently negative or a part of our human experience.
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Jon (00:05):
Welcome to the Exhorter podcast, where we're here to
serve love and good worksthrough bite-sized biblical
discussion.
Welcome back.
It's been a few weeks sincewe've had any new episodes and
we had the holidays and we hadjust a lot of projects that came
up.
But we're starting off the newyear strong and we're excited to
get going for 2025.
New year strong and we'reexcited to get going for 2025.
(00:30):
We've had a lot of listenerrequests and we're going to try
to address some of those in thenext few weeks, if we can.
Today, kyle, you are going tolead us through.
I can't even pronounce itcorrectly, so I'm just going to
let you take it away.
What are we?
Kyle (00:40):
talking about the word is schadenfreude.
Would you like me to use thatin a sentence Schadenfreude?
Excuse me, okay.
Do either of you know what thatis?
Only because you sent it to usyesterday.
Nate (00:53):
It was like hey, look this up.
Jon (00:55):
But I know what it is now.
Is that harm joy?
Nate (00:57):
Yeah, it's something I realized I do a lot more
frequently than I should.
Kyle (01:07):
It is a German word that means harm, joy.
There is no English word thatdirectly corresponds to it.
So it's one of those words thatit's hard to pronounce and
maybe you've never even heardthe word, but I guarantee you
you understand the concept.
Before we even define itprecisely, let me just describe
a scenario and then I think allof you listening will go oh, I
(01:29):
know exactly what schadenfreudeis.
So the true story afterspending all day yesterday
studying this, prepping it,thinking about it, I'm driving
home last night and there's this.
I almost said idiot, but weshouldn't call people names like
that.
I think we did a podcast onthat already driving like a
Christian.
There's this person driving aMustang, and it's always
(01:53):
Mustangs or Dodge Challengers,those new Mustangs right, yes,
with the loud engines.
And this guy is just tearing itup.
He's one of those people wholoves the sound of his engine
and I don't know, do those guysthink we all like that too?
Nate (02:06):
He probably parks backwards where the front end is
out.
Jon (02:09):
So you, can see it.
I don't think they're thinkingabout other people.
Can you hear the?
Kyle (02:12):
jealousy of this four-cylinder, 200,000-mile
Corolla owner coming through thespeaker here.
Anyway, this guy is justripping it up, he's driving
recklessly, dangerously.
He's revving his engine as loudas he can and a cop comes from
behind me, gets over, passes meand pulls up to the guy and
we're all stopped at a red lightand I'm just sitting there like
rubbing my hands together.
(02:33):
Oh, here we go, it's gonnahappen, it's gonna happen.
And then, as soon as the lightturns, green mustang peels it.
Hair is out of there.
Must not have seen the cop andthe red and blue lights flash on
.
And I'm back there going.
Yeah, we're gonna get him.
You know, as I'm driving by,I'm just kind of gloating over
it like justice was served.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
You know what?
(02:53):
Do you know what?
schadenfreude is then I do.
Now it's simply having joy orrejoicing in someone else's
calamity or misfortune.
Yeah, now, the problem withthis is so there's a problem
with that?
Jon (03:10):
Okay, yeah, sorry, this is a bad thing Well this is
prevalent in politics.
Kyle (03:17):
Well, this can come in many forms.
This is a very nuanced idea, aswe were discussing privately
before we were recording.
There's a lot of gray, not justbecause we're getting older and
our hair is turning gray, butwe're seeing a lot more gray, uh
than our younger.
More, uh, what's the word?
you have beliefs, convictions,oh you're ideological idealistic
(03:42):
yeah oh idealistic okay, yeah,more than our younger,
idealistic selves, and so thisis a very nuanced topic because
it it certainly on the surfaceseems like something that is
negative and and a bad thing.
Yeah, there's a lot of negativeemotions related to it.
One of my favorite showsgrowing up and I'll I'll this to
(04:04):
our listeners is the Simpsons,and most of my friends that grew
up going to church We'lladdress that in the next Most of
my friends, you know I know theperson sitting next to me, john
was not allowed to watch theSimpsons.
Most of my friends were notallowed, but my family sat down
and we all watched it together.
We set the vcr back in the 90sand come home from church on
(04:26):
sunday night and watch the newepisode.
And it's funny too to compareit to modern day television
shows.
It's not that bad at the time.
I see why people had a cow, toquote bart simpson.
But by comparison to most showstoday, it's actually pretty
wholesome, especially the earlyseasons.
I mean, there's one episode inparticular where homer's uh,
(04:46):
homer simpson's neighbor, nedflanders hi, diddly ho neighbor,
exactly.
He's presented as this squeaky,clean, uh, you know, super
faithful christian.
He's got this perfect family,always happy, always seems to
have things together, and that'smeant to be.
Uh, juxtaposed with with theirneighbors, the Simpsons, who are
always in chaos, constant chaos, and Homer is, throughout the
(05:10):
show, very envious he's alsodumb, of the kind of life, yes,
but he's very envious of thelife that his neighbor has, that
Ned always has the nicest stuff, his kids always are
well-behaved, and so there's alot of envy and jealousy there.
And then in one episode, nedFlanders, who is revealed to be
left-handed, wants to start aleft-handed store, the Leftorium
(05:33):
All left-handed stuff and heputs all his life savings into
it and it flops and the wholeepisode is about homer just
rejoicing over it and gloatingand, like I said, the show
actually has a lot more um heartto it than most people realize
it's.
He sees how much ned issuffering and actually helps
(05:58):
rally the town to, startstelling all his left-handed
friends and helps rally and theysave the business and has a
good kind of heartwarming ending.
But the main focus of the showis that that just he's envied
ned for so long and now he'sjust rejoicing over his failure.
So envy is definitely one ofthose very negative emotions
that's often associated with it.
(06:18):
Yeah, I totally wanted to do anelson like and that's the other
thing too, that that's allthroughout the show is Nelson
months, the bully who's alwaysthere to laugh.
When somebody gets beat up,somebody gets pants, somebody
loses something, he's alwaysthere to laugh at their
misfortune.
So that brings up anotherelement to it.
(06:40):
There's the envy side of it,but there's also the humor side
of it, I think I'm I'm gonnatalk about some things that
we're all guilty of.
Nate (06:47):
I mean america's funniest videos oh, it's all about people
breaking bones and hittingheads, but yeah, but they're
running to win ten thousanddollars, so you know, see, this
is where this is okay, this iswhere it gets kind of they
submitted their video to beviewed right.
Kyle (07:01):
It's their fault exactly this is where it gets a little
bit nuanced, but strictlyspeaking, watching and laughing
at someone's misfortune is, bythis definition, schadenfreude.
Jon (07:12):
So is it just the enjoyment , like, what's the level of
looking at misfortune?
Is it like joy or is it likepleasure, like I'm trying to
understand?
Nate (07:22):
like Well, okay, so like if I, if, if, if my daughter
bonks her head from, like youknow, being a doofus and running
into.
She's not hurt, she's notactually injured but you're glad
that she learned a lesson yeah,teach her a lesson, well, but
it's not.
She's not actually injured,whereas, you know, maybe she
gets in a accident that has morelasting consequences.
(07:42):
Well, if someone were to beglad about that, then then I
would be like hey, come here,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
got some schadenfreude for you.
Jon (07:50):
But so that's the kind of trying to understand the nuance
of that.
There must be a very specificrule about the If only there was
a specific rule about it.
It's kind of a complicated idea, so you could look at it as
into.
Justice has been served, and soI am just happy that justice
has been served.
Is that the same.
Kyle (08:08):
There's another aspect of it, so we see it in different
areas.
Simple humor, and that requiressome critical thinking.
As far as am I laughing atsomeone's serious misfortune
Because none of the people onAmerica's Funniest Videos.
They're not there, like in aneck brace, paralyzed from the
waist down, yeah and we'relaughing at them.
Right it's, it's pretty lowstakes.
Nate (08:31):
They slipped and fell in the mud, or yeah something yeah
there was no long-term issue asa result of the thing that
happened in the right, sotechnically speaking, that is
what we're talking about, butit's not.
Kyle (08:43):
It's not the same thing as envying someone and relishing
when they fail, because I'mjealous of what they have and I
love seeing them fail.
Nate (08:50):
Right, or when a foreign leader or a leader that you
didn't like gets assassinatedand you're like yeah, ok, ok.
Kyle (08:56):
So there's.
There's the envy side, there'sthe humor side, which is itself
not always wrong, which isitself not always wrong.
There's kind of a light sideand a dark side, to use some
Star Wars terms.
We have to use a Star Warsillustration in every episode,
and so, on the darker side, youhave envy, but on the lighter
side there's simple humor.
(09:17):
This is a hard one tocategorize.
Is they're schadenfreude overjustice?
So, osama bin Laden, after 9-11, all of our focus as a nation,
our political leaders, ourmilitary, was focused on finding
Please silence your cell phones.
That wasn't me, that was you.
Nate (09:33):
John, don't look at me and blame me.
Jon (09:36):
Is it my laptop?
Kyle (09:37):
Sorry, I just have phones everywhere, oh my goodness, his
burner phone for his girlfriend,his burger phone for his
girlfriend.
Nate (09:44):
So, kyle, this is a really good point, because the Bible
talks about both of these things, like not rejoicing at people's
calamity, and yet there areverses that talk about I think
maybe in the Psalms or Proverbswhere someone's happy that
justice has been served, andthat was obviously the
misfortune of another, and thatis where it can feel at times
like the Bible is talking out ofboth sides of its face.
Kyle (10:06):
There Proverbs, chapter 24 and verse 17, says do not
rejoice when your enemy fallsand do not let your heart be
glad when he stumbles, lest theLord see it and it displeases
him and he turn away his wrathfrom him.
So you do have that warningDon't take pleasure and rejoice
in your enemy and his failures.
But then we do have otherexamples where we are pretty
(10:30):
much told to do that very thing,and we have lots of examples In
the book of Psalms.
We have what's called theimprecatory Psalm and its
language, and there's quite afew of them.
When you start reading throughthe book, there's 150 psalms and
quite a few of them areimprecatory, asking for God to
take action against your enemies, and so there are quite a few
(10:54):
scriptures like that.
Nate (10:56):
Well yeah, psalm 5810,.
The righteous will rejoice whenthey see vengeance done.
They will bathe their feet inthe blood of the wicked.
Kyle (11:04):
Well, that's a pretty gruesome image, but it's
biblical.
Nate (11:09):
There's an extreme example of schadenfreude.
Kyle (11:12):
Well then, you know, I've got one proverb.
We just read Proverbs 24 thatsays don't rejoice in your
enemy's failures.
But then Proverbs, chapter 11and verse 10, says when the
righteous prosper, the cityrejoices, they shout for joy.
When the wicked die.
Nate (11:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I know that this is a
personification in Proverbs 1,but I think it's talking about
wisdom and folly.
It says I, in turn, will laughwhen disaster strikes you.
I will mock when calamityovertakes you.
You know, there's an example, Ithink, of schadenfreude.
Kyle (11:41):
All right.
So in Jeremiah, chapter 11 andverse verse 20, with regard to
babylon, and we remember thatbabylon was sent by god to
punish the wickedness of thepeople of judah.
But they're still the enemies.
And so jeremiah says in chapter11, verse 20 but o lord of
hosts, who judges righteously,who tests the heart in the mind,
let me see your vengeance uponthem, for to you I have
(12:03):
committed my cause.
O lord of hosts, who tests therighteous, who sees the heart
and the mind, let me see yourvengeance upon them.
So he repeats that a couple oftimes in his book and all over
Deuteronomy 32, verse 43, mosestells them to rejoice, o nations
, with his people, for he willavenge the blood of his servants
, he will take vengeance on hisenemies and make atonement for
(12:24):
his land and people.
Maybe one distinction I'm seeinghere are you guys seeing the
same thing?
That there's a difference inrejoicing over the calamity of
your personal adversary versus,in a more corporate sense, the
adversary of God fails.
Do we rejoice because, well,justice was done?
(12:45):
Do we rejoice because God wonwas done?
Do we rejoice because god won?
Jon (12:47):
can that be isolated into people?
Nate (12:49):
or is it kind of like separating the sinner from the
sin, kind of thing, like likeevil is being uh, beaten and
therefore we are glad at that,um, but individuals, uh, you
know, we, we don't want to seeindividual souls condemned that
sort of.
Is that kind of?
Kyle (13:07):
yeah and I.
One thing I've noticed whenI've gone through a lot of these
examples is that they all seemto be the rejoicing would happen
after they're defeated, afterall hope is gone.
You don't rejoice oversomeone's calamity while they're
still around, while they stillhave a hope of restoration or
repentance, but after they'vebeen defeated.
(13:30):
Then that's when we see theexamples in the Bible and that
might be a very subtledistinction, but I think that
could be an important one too,that we don't gloat over
someone's calamity while they'rein the middle of it.
Nate (13:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, Too soon, too soon, like that phrase, like
the, the, the.
Maybe the meaning in thatphrase is it over someone in the
midst of it or before theircalamity is complete.
Kyle (14:16):
In the Bible they seem to be rejoicing after their enemies
.
They might call for vengeancefrom the hands of God, for him
to take action, for him to takeaction Again.
We always have to rememberRomans, chapter 12, that talks
about in verse 19 that vengeanceis mine, I will repay, says the
(14:36):
Lord.
So it might be an importantconsideration that God we leave
the dispensing of justice to God.
We can call for his vengeance,but I think we also need to
acknowledge most of theimprecatory.
Psalms also involve prettyintense self-reflection.
Jon (14:54):
I mean, if you're having that kind of vengeful thought
about it and getting that kindof enjoyment out of it, I think
it's easy to see when you feellike it's going wrong or not.
You know you're never going tofeel that way about your kid or
someone learning a lesson.
You're not going to feel thatyou don't delight in the harm or
the severity of whatever it is.
(15:14):
Maybe you might be pleased atsome point that they're learning
a lesson, but never at thedetriment of their safety or
health or feelings or anythingright.
So I think it's that thevengeance, these words
associated with it give it thatkind of obvious wrong feel to it
.
A lot of this is probably basedupon your overinflated sense of
(15:37):
righteousness of yourself.
Otherwise it's log and spec kindof thing right, like definitely
don't want this to come from asense of feeling we're higher
and mighty, you know, or like anoverinflated sense of self.
Does that make sense?
Kyle (15:52):
I think, we should consider degrees of this as well
.
That delight or joy insomeone's downfall or calamity
is wrong, but satisfaction inknowing that justice maybe took
place is not quite to the samedegree as delighting.
I mean Ezekiel, chapter 18 andverse 32, god plainly says I
(16:14):
have no pleasure in the death ofanyone, declares the Lord God,
but he's just and righteous andexecutes righteous judgment.
And so he does take the livesof people as an execution of
justice, but it doesn't mean hedelights in it.
He takes no joy in it.
So well, we may look at Osamabin Laden, capturing him, having
(16:39):
him put to death.
That's justice, that's fair.
It feels like there's somesatisfaction that who is
arguably the mastermind of, ofthe attack on our country.
Yeah, justice was brought to.
We might take satisfaction thatwe maybe need to be cautioned
against delighting, getting tooexcited over that or enjoying it
(16:59):
like we don't take pleasure inthe death of anyone but we can
be satisfied that justice isthat a.
Is that maybe a fair way?
Jon (17:07):
yeah, because how does that correlate with the sanctity of
life as well?
We understand that there's acause and effect, we understand
that there is justice in thatsense, but do we delight and are
we happy when someone meetsthat kind of an end?
Kyle (17:21):
And then how do we balance this with David cutting off the
head of Goliath and parading itaround?
Did he get a little carriedaway there?
Because, I was thinking likethat's kind of crossing a line,
but Goliath challenged God.
Jon (17:38):
But that's just because he couldn't put Goliath on a spit
right, like he is too big.
Kyle (17:42):
Yeah, because I feel like I just said maybe we shouldn't.
Nate (17:45):
I don't think that's the case.
I don't think that's right.
Kyle (17:50):
I just said maybe we shouldn't.
I don't think that's the case,I don't think that's right,
maybe we shouldn't get.
I just said maybe we shouldn'tget carried away and rejoicing
or delighting, and then it lookslike David kind of gets carried
away.
But yeah, I don't.
Nate (17:57):
I don't know Like.
I keep coming back to the ideaI love when evil gets what's
coming to it, but does thatnecessarily mean that I want
that person to you know to burnin hell for all eternity?
Like I wish they would havechanged.
Kyle (18:14):
Well, consider what it says in Revelation, chapter 18
and verse 20 regarding Babylonthe great.
Nate (18:22):
Yeah.
Kyle (18:22):
Rejoice over her, o heaven and you saints and apostles and
prophets, for God haspronounced judgment against her
on your behalf.
Yeah, yeah, and that.
I've lost without getting intoit.
Uh, there's different views onBabylon the great.
I'll just suggest that that isRome who persecuted Christians.
And then, similarly, uh,revelation also talks about um.
(18:44):
Revelation, chapter 19.
After this, I heard what seemedto be the loud, the loud voice
of a great multitude in heavencrying out hallelujah, salvation
and glory, power belong to ourGod, for his judgments are true
and just.
He has judged the greatprostitute who corrupted the
earth.
So, all throughout revelation,there are these images of
rejoicing over the enemiesbecause, and their downfall,
(19:06):
because it was, uh, anexpression of God's righteous
judgment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when it's evil, we shouldrejoice in a certain way.
When it is God claiming victoryin judgment over evil, do we
rejoice?
Nate (19:26):
that evil lost or the good won, good one.
Well, I mean, do we lie to?
Jon (19:32):
ourselves too?
Do we just?
Do we kind of as long as we sayglory to be god, you know, uh,
you know, justice was done, yeah, um, are we kind of
whitewashing it as well?
Kyle (19:42):
like I knew, this was going to be a fun one for us to
discuss.
There's I wish you guys couldsee this.
There is a lot of furrowedbrows going on right now.
There's a lot of gears turningin in our heads right there.
Nate (19:54):
I think here's the thing is I let's say we're coming to
like that's okay, but didn't welike to talk over no, no, you
first I understand I would liketo say something I understand
that death through justiceexists and I'm okay with that.
Jon (20:12):
I'm okay with death penalty , I'm okay with life ending as a
matter of justice.
Nate (20:17):
I think that is a biblical principle.
Jon (20:19):
I'm okay with that.
But being okay with that andunderstanding that there's value
in that, there is justice inthat, it's different than
enjoying it.
You see all these times wherepeople forgive someone for
taking the life of their kid andstuff you know in a courthouse,
now that doesn't mean that theydon't have cause and effect and
(20:42):
that they shouldn't haveconsequence for their actions
right.
But you have a situation likethat where you see someone
taking that higher road uh,where forgiveness is.
It's hard to then think, okay,someone doing, someone doing the
opposite, fry them, just beingso exuberantly glad about it.
I, I can't say being in thesame shoes.
(21:04):
You know, I would.
I don't, I wouldn't know what Ifeel, but there's something
that does feel off about thatright that when you would have
that kind of joy in somethinglike that and maybe that
schadenfreude is, maybe I'mgoing to the extreme with like
death penalty and like that kindof justice with schadenfreude,
maybe it's literally like theguy getting pulled over by the
(21:25):
cops, it's maybe.
Kyle (21:25):
Well, that's what I mean by it.
Comes in degrees because, maybe, maybe I shouldn't have gotten
so animated with the, with themustang, the loud mustang guy
that got pulled over.
Jon (21:36):
I mean rolling down your window and cheering and clapping
.
It was probably I got.
Kyle (21:40):
I probably got too excited over what was a probably end up
being a bad day for that guy.
But but also he's drivingaround like an idiot you know,
like an idiot I'm not callinghim.
Jon (21:51):
Indeed, I'm saying his behavior was idiot, like now I
know now what if that guy wasdriving erratically putting
other people in harm and theygot pulled over?
You know, you're always goingwhere's the cop when you need
one right.
And so they actually got pulledover and you're thinking thank
goodness.
Well, you know, goodness, I'mso happy that that person was
(22:12):
humbled and taken off the roadat this point in time because
someone could have been hurt.
Now my joy is a littledifferent than the joy that I
would be going like, ah right,Well, that brings up a good
point, because maybe it showswhy we should be so cautioned.
Kyle (22:27):
I think schadenfreude is just part of human nature.
It's something that, if wedon't even know what that word
means, it's something we allunderstand.
It's something we're alwaysgoing to be fighting this urge
to rejoice over other people'scalamities, and I think we do
need to be careful,understanding that it isn't an
all bad thing.
But also, I think we alwaysneed to pair it with
(22:49):
self-reflection and just cautionourselves from getting carried
away with it.
Because why was I so excited?
Well, it's probably because allthe other times some person who
is driving like an idiot cut meoff or sped by me really fast
in a dangerous way, and therewas no cop, like you just said,
john, where's a cop when youneed one?
(23:09):
Well, so am I really like thatangry with this guy?
He wasn't really that offensiveof a driver, he was just
driving a really loud Mustang inan obnoxious, slightly
dangerous kind of way.
But I've seen a lot worse.
But it's all my pent upfrustrations over the other
people that didn't get caughtand I just dumped it all out on
this guy, and that shows howeasy it is to become misguided
(23:32):
and get carried away.
I think that's another big redflag with this is.
We see how rejoicing over God'svictory or rejoicing over the
defeat of someone who standsopposed to God not our personal
enemy, but true evil when it isdefeated, we see that it can be
good to rejoice over that, butsometimes we do a bad job of
(23:58):
attributing something to Godthat maybe he didn't do.
La is on fire right now.
Okay, yeah.
Jon (24:04):
I mean, I was looking at all these tangible examples
right now and there's that one,and then there's also the
election.
Kyle (24:11):
Yeah, there's one thing with maybe you're a MAGA
Republican but maybe there'sjust some normal people that
just think he was the bestoption, but they don't
necessarily love everythingabout him.
But there is rejoicing becauseyour candidate quote, unquote
won.
But then you see all the theclips on youtube liberal tears
(24:32):
yeah, how many hours do youspend watching?
Jon (24:35):
oh, I don't but, my point is the question here is like how
, how often, as soon as theelection was over that there was
a epidemic starting of people?
Kyle (24:47):
compilations all over the place.
Yeah, liberal tears, there's alittle show called lefties
losing it like that.
Jon (24:51):
That's the the name of the show that started years ago, but
I mean it coined especiallywith the idea of republican
nelson's pointing at actuallyall those people that show is
actually run by the show isactually run by australians.
I think it's really funny.
They look at our nation,they're it's like they're
commenting on it, right, yeah,and the problem is is a lot of
(25:13):
that's baked into humor and sowe need to have like, like humor
is one of those we need to havea good, healthy relationship
with, because humor can can gobad and can can be bad, and well
, then there's also like, oh, Iwas just kidding, right, where
you can?
Kyle (25:27):
you can bail out of a bad if.
If a joke goes badly, you canjust say well, I was just joking
, you know, I didn't mean it,but you get all these situations
like Ruth Bader Ginsburg passedaway, and there were, I think
there were a lot of people thatwere reveling in her death and I
don't know that that was a goodlook for Christians.
That, well, I shouldn't say Idon't know that wasn't a good
(25:48):
look for Christians.
Well, and getting back to theLA fires, I have seen a lot of
people not a lot, but I haveseen some videos going around
Facebook suggesting that the dayafter the Golden Globes, and
there's jokes about.
No one acknowledged God.
Ha ha, we're such a godlesscity.
Then the fires break out.
I think we're quick sometimesto attribute something to the
(26:09):
working of God that we justdon't know.
God is active in this world.
He's sovereign over the wholeworld, but I'm not going to be
so presumptuous as to say, well,that was God doing that, when I
don't know.
Nate (26:20):
It's interesting.
As we're talking, I'm reallythinking about like, am I glad?
I am so glad when evil losesand good wins, just generally
speaking, like it, what I've,you know, and I just I look at
the political realm because,because I think there are things
in the political realm that areevil and I think that there are
things and and people whorepresent good things, and I am
(26:43):
happy when the evil loses andthe good wins, in my opinion.
But then I think about likeindividual, like an individual
on death row.
Maybe they committed a seriouscrime a long time ago and now
they're going to die.
Am I glad that justice isadministered, certainly, but
could I potentially look at thatperson and have some empathy
(27:05):
and go you made a mistake, youknow, and, uh, the result of
that is you losing your life, uh, and am I going to rejoice at
that?
Jon (27:15):
another thing to think about, too, is do we
schadenfreude?
Am I saying that?
Nate (27:19):
you have to say it right schadenfreude, schadenfreude,
just like so, um, do we see thisin the church?
Jon (27:31):
oh, oh, oh, boy, do we ever see this in the church?
I mean, we're bringing in thescale down here, obviously we're
not talking about dramaticthings in the mirror but do you
ever?
Do you ever see this in thechurch?
Do you see someone strugglingwith something and you go?
Nate (27:46):
they got what's coming to, yeah, oh maybe.
Jon (27:48):
So the tree, um, I don't know like I've.
I've obviously yeah, if it's ahuman nature thing, then it's
going to happen in differentscales and so maybe we start.
We start, you know, closer tohome, and then we can scale out
right and closer to home.
I'd say with our families andwith our um, with the church and
(28:09):
with our, with our brethren.
Nate (28:10):
Is is it's like when you're I just thought of this
example Maybe it does or maybeit doesn't apply, but when my
kid, I tell them don't touch thestove, don't get close to the
fire.
And then they touch the stoveor they get close to the fire
and they get burned.
Am I glad that they got burned?
No, but am I glad that theylearned a lesson?
Yeah, oh, I hope that they did.
Jon (28:29):
Yeah, um, but if it's a brethren that you've been
warning and telling them, orthey, they said that's not a
problem.
Or they say my kids are great,they're fine, they're wonderful.
And then one falls away like,do you know?
Like at what point do we, do weever have that kind of you know
, that comeuppance kind of kindof feeling?
(28:50):
And we should?
That's obviously.
We're saying that's wrong.
Right, we shouldn't have thatkind of.
Nate (28:58):
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Weep with those who weep.
We shouldn't be like Nelson.
Jon (29:03):
We shouldn't invert that.
Kyle (29:05):
Yeah, that's Romans 12, verses 14 and 15.
I think that's an important wecould find some sort of closure
on this topic.
I look at it as exercisecaution.
This is just part of humannature.
We all wrestle with thesefeelings, the spectrum of
feelings from simply satisfiedto know that God has dispensed
(29:25):
justice to full-on gloating atthe other extreme.
We need to exercise caution andself-reflection.
Romans 12 and verse 14 saysbless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse.
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Weep with those who weep.
Not rejoice with those who weepor over those who weep.
(29:46):
Similarly, jesus said in theSermon on the Mount love your
enemies and bless those whocurse you.
The mount love your enemies andbless those who curse you.
Knowing that vengeance belongsto God frees me up to simply
love people and show themkindness, knowing that God will
take care of things.
Well, this discussion, much likein studying for it, has been
(30:09):
frustrating in some ways,because when I approach a topic,
I want to understand all of it.
I want to grasp every aspect ofit in my mind and and fully
understand it.
And this is one of those thingsthat I don't.
I don't feel like I come awaywith a hard and fast set of
rules and how to, uh, how tohandle these feelings.
But I think caution iswarranted and we should look at
(30:33):
uh, maybe less is more.
When it comes to schadenfreude,I'm reminded of some examples in
the Bible when David's enemieslike King Saul died.
Well, 2 Samuel 1, the wholechapter is a tribute to the
fallen king.
And you'd look at that andthink well, he should be
rejoicing that his enemy, whotried to kill him on multiple
(30:54):
occasions, is dead.
But he chose to honor the manbecause of his position.
And I think sometimes we rush tomoralize misfortune.
Something bad happens and wewant to apply some sort of
cosmic justice to it or say thatGod has done something, when we
just don't know what God doesand does not do.
(31:16):
One final example is Luke 13,when they come to Jesus and they
told him about the Galileanswhose blood Pilate had mingled
with their sacrifices.
And Jesus answered and said tothem do you suppose these
Galileans were worse sinnersthan all other Galileans because
they suffered these things?
I tell you no, but unless yourepent, you will likewise perish
(31:38):
.
I think in times when we'retempted to rejoice over
misfortune, we need to be slowto do it much like anger slow to
anger but quick to thinkSelf-reflection and make sure
we're not taking too muchdelight in others' misfortune.
Jon (31:55):
Well, thanks, kyle.
Thank you for that.
I mean educating on a new word,hell, no.
Nate (32:01):
I've heard it, I just never knew, what it meant.
Kyle (32:04):
A new word, but a familiar emotion.
Jon (32:06):
Familiar emotion.
And I'd say that you might beable to have that joy inside
that justice is done, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean your
actions outward need to beanything other than what Romans
12, 14 and 15 say.
Bless those who persecute you,bless those who do not curse,
rejoice with those who rejoiceand weep with those who weep.
(32:26):
So thank you for your time.
Thank you for listening to theExhorter podcast.
Nate (32:31):
Stay tuned for a few more episodes Like subscribe and
share with your friends orpeople who maybe something bad
has happened to them and youwant to help them by giving them
this podcast.
It's great.
Would this be more for me?
If something bad happened?
(32:52):
I'm not sure I wasn't thinkingtoo hard.
I wasn't really thinking toohard.
Yeah, you know one of thethoughts that I had and, John,
maybe you can edit this back inor edit it out no, Because it's
worthless.
Maybe I was listening to MelGibson the philosopher.
Jon (33:09):
The old M Gibson, old Mel, let's just call him M Gibson.
Nate (33:14):
But I think he said something that was I think it
was profound, and he said youare responsible for not the
first thought that comes intoyour head, but the second
thought, and you are responsiblefor your first action.
And I thought that's a goodpoint.
You know, maybe our firstthought is schadenfreude, like,
(33:35):
ah, they deserve it, but what'sour second thought?
Okay, well, here is a personwho you know, they, I don't know
, we just we think through thesituation more than just
reacting with our, with ourfeeling.
Jon (33:47):
Yeah, and you can actually have that feeling inside, but
you know, as Christians we aresupposed to walk.
You know different and sodoesn't mean we need to act on
that, do?
Nate (33:56):
we wait for the outward perspective we can.
Jon (33:59):
We can be very empathetic, sure yeah, and still value
justice inside, like that point.
M Gibson, what a scholar yeah,yeah yeah, you may or may not
have found the Joe Rogan podcast.
His house just burnt down whilehe was laughing about it on the
Joe Rogan podcast.
Welcome to the Exhorter podcast, where we're here to
serve love and good worksthrough bite-sized biblical
discussion.
Welcome back.
It's been a few weeks sincewe've had any new episodes and
we had the holidays and we hadjust a lot of projects that came
up.
But we're starting off the newyear strong and we're excited to
get going for 2025.
New year strong and we'reexcited to get going for 2025.
(00:30):
We've had a lot of listenerrequests and we're going to try
to address some of those in thenext few weeks, if we can.
Today, kyle, you are going tolead us through.
I can't even pronounce itcorrectly, so I'm just going to
let you take it away.
What are we?
Kyle (00:40):
talking about the word is schadenfreude.
Would you like me to use thatin a sentence Schadenfreude?
Excuse me, okay.
Do either of you know what thatis?
Only because you sent it to usyesterday.
Nate (00:53):
It was like hey, look this up.
Jon (00:55):
But I know what it is now.
Is that harm joy?
Nate (00:57):
Yeah, it's something I realized I do a lot more
frequently than I should.
Kyle (01:07):
It is a German word that means harm, joy.
There is no English word thatdirectly corresponds to it.
So it's one of those words thatit's hard to pronounce and
maybe you've never even heardthe word, but I guarantee you
you understand the concept.
Before we even define itprecisely, let me just describe
a scenario and then I think allof you listening will go oh, I
(01:29):
know exactly what schadenfreudeis.
So the true story afterspending all day yesterday
studying this, prepping it,thinking about it, I'm driving
home last night and there's this.
I almost said idiot, but weshouldn't call people names like
that.
I think we did a podcast onthat already driving like a
Christian.
There's this person driving aMustang, and it's always
(01:53):
Mustangs or Dodge Challengers,those new Mustangs right, yes,
with the loud engines.
And this guy is just tearing itup.
He's one of those people wholoves the sound of his engine
and I don't know, do those guysthink we all like that too?
Nate (02:06):
He probably parks backwards where the front end is
out.
Jon (02:09):
So you, can see it.
I don't think they're thinkingabout other people.
Can you hear the?
Kyle (02:12):
jealousy of this four-cylinder, 200,000-mile
Corolla owner coming through thespeaker here.
Anyway, this guy is justripping it up, he's driving
recklessly, dangerously.
He's revving his engine as loudas he can and a cop comes from
behind me, gets over, passes meand pulls up to the guy and
we're all stopped at a red lightand I'm just sitting there like
rubbing my hands together.
(02:33):
Oh, here we go, it's gonnahappen, it's gonna happen.
And then, as soon as the lightturns, green mustang peels it.
Hair is out of there.
Must not have seen the cop andthe red and blue lights flash on
.
And I'm back there going.
Yeah, we're gonna get him.
You know, as I'm driving by,I'm just kind of gloating over
it like justice was served.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
You know what?
(02:53):
Do you know what?
schadenfreude is then I do.
Now it's simply having joy orrejoicing in someone else's
calamity or misfortune.
Yeah, now, the problem withthis is so there's a problem
with that?
Jon (03:10):
Okay, yeah, sorry, this is a bad thing Well this is
prevalent in politics.
Kyle (03:17):
Well, this can come in many forms.
This is a very nuanced idea, aswe were discussing privately
before we were recording.
There's a lot of gray, not justbecause we're getting older and
our hair is turning gray, butwe're seeing a lot more gray, uh
than our younger.
More, uh, what's the word?
you have beliefs, convictions,oh you're ideological idealistic
(03:42):
yeah oh idealistic okay, yeah,more than our younger,
idealistic selves, and so thisis a very nuanced topic because
it it certainly on the surfaceseems like something that is
negative and and a bad thing.
Yeah, there's a lot of negativeemotions related to it.
One of my favorite showsgrowing up and I'll I'll this to
(04:04):
our listeners is the Simpsons,and most of my friends that grew
up going to church We'lladdress that in the next Most of
my friends, you know I know theperson sitting next to me, john
was not allowed to watch theSimpsons.
Most of my friends were notallowed, but my family sat down
and we all watched it together.
We set the vcr back in the 90sand come home from church on
(04:26):
sunday night and watch the newepisode.
And it's funny too to compareit to modern day television
shows.
It's not that bad at the time.
I see why people had a cow, toquote bart simpson.
But by comparison to most showstoday, it's actually pretty
wholesome, especially the earlyseasons.
I mean, there's one episode inparticular where homer's uh,
(04:46):
homer simpson's neighbor, nedflanders hi, diddly ho neighbor,
exactly.
He's presented as this squeaky,clean, uh, you know, super
faithful christian.
He's got this perfect family,always happy, always seems to
have things together, and that'smeant to be.
Uh, juxtaposed with with theirneighbors, the Simpsons, who are
always in chaos, constant chaos, and Homer is, throughout the
(05:10):
show, very envious he's alsodumb, of the kind of life, yes,
but he's very envious of thelife that his neighbor has, that
Ned always has the nicest stuff, his kids always are
well-behaved, and so there's alot of envy and jealousy there.
And then in one episode, nedFlanders, who is revealed to be
left-handed, wants to start aleft-handed store, the Leftorium
(05:33):
All left-handed stuff and heputs all his life savings into
it and it flops and the wholeepisode is about homer just
rejoicing over it and gloatingand, like I said, the show
actually has a lot more um heartto it than most people realize
it's.
He sees how much ned issuffering and actually helps
(05:58):
rally the town to, startstelling all his left-handed
friends and helps rally and theysave the business and has a
good kind of heartwarming ending.
But the main focus of the showis that that just he's envied
ned for so long and now he'sjust rejoicing over his failure.
So envy is definitely one ofthose very negative emotions
that's often associated with it.
(06:18):
Yeah, I totally wanted to do anelson like and that's the other
thing too, that that's allthroughout the show is Nelson
months, the bully who's alwaysthere to laugh.
When somebody gets beat up,somebody gets pants, somebody
loses something, he's alwaysthere to laugh at their
misfortune.
So that brings up anotherelement to it.
(06:40):
There's the envy side of it,but there's also the humor side
of it, I think I'm I'm gonnatalk about some things that
we're all guilty of.
Nate (06:47):
I mean america's funniest videos oh, it's all about people
breaking bones and hittingheads, but yeah, but they're
running to win ten thousanddollars, so you know, see, this
is where this is okay, this iswhere it gets kind of they
submitted their video to beviewed right.
Kyle (07:01):
It's their fault exactly this is where it gets a little
bit nuanced, but strictlyspeaking, watching and laughing
at someone's misfortune is, bythis definition, schadenfreude.
Jon (07:12):
So is it just the enjoyment , like, what's the level of
looking at misfortune?
Is it like joy or is it likepleasure, like I'm trying to
understand?
Nate (07:22):
like Well, okay, so like if I, if, if, if my daughter
bonks her head from, like youknow, being a doofus and running
into.
She's not hurt, she's notactually injured but you're glad
that she learned a lesson yeah,teach her a lesson, well, but
it's not.
She's not actually injured,whereas, you know, maybe she
gets in a accident that has morelasting consequences.
(07:42):
Well, if someone were to beglad about that, then then I
would be like hey, come here,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
got some schadenfreude for you.
Jon (07:50):
But so that's the kind of trying to understand the nuance
of that.
There must be a very specificrule about the If only there was
a specific rule about it.
It's kind of a complicated idea, so you could look at it as
into.
Justice has been served, and soI am just happy that justice
has been served.
Is that the same.
Kyle (08:08):
There's another aspect of it, so we see it in different
areas.
Simple humor, and that requiressome critical thinking.
As far as am I laughing atsomeone's serious misfortune
Because none of the people onAmerica's Funniest Videos.
They're not there, like in aneck brace, paralyzed from the
waist down, yeah and we'relaughing at them.
Right it's, it's pretty lowstakes.
Nate (08:31):
They slipped and fell in the mud, or yeah something yeah
there was no long-term issue asa result of the thing that
happened in the right, sotechnically speaking, that is
what we're talking about, butit's not.
Kyle (08:43):
It's not the same thing as envying someone and relishing
when they fail, because I'mjealous of what they have and I
love seeing them fail.
Nate (08:50):
Right, or when a foreign leader or a leader that you
didn't like gets assassinatedand you're like yeah, ok, ok.
Kyle (08:56):
So there's.
There's the envy side, there'sthe humor side, which is itself
not always wrong, which isitself not always wrong.
There's kind of a light sideand a dark side, to use some
Star Wars terms.
We have to use a Star Warsillustration in every episode,
and so, on the darker side, youhave envy, but on the lighter
side there's simple humor.
(09:17):
This is a hard one tocategorize.
Is they're schadenfreude overjustice?
So, osama bin Laden, after 9-11, all of our focus as a nation,
our political leaders, ourmilitary, was focused on finding
Please silence your cell phones.
That wasn't me, that was you.
Nate (09:33):
John, don't look at me and blame me.
Jon (09:36):
Is it my laptop?
Kyle (09:37):
Sorry, I just have phones everywhere, oh my goodness, his
burner phone for his girlfriend,his burger phone for his
girlfriend.
Nate (09:44):
So, kyle, this is a really good point, because the Bible
talks about both of these things, like not rejoicing at people's
calamity, and yet there areverses that talk about I think
maybe in the Psalms or Proverbswhere someone's happy that
justice has been served, andthat was obviously the
misfortune of another, and thatis where it can feel at times
like the Bible is talking out ofboth sides of its face.
Kyle (10:06):
There Proverbs, chapter 24 and verse 17, says do not
rejoice when your enemy fallsand do not let your heart be
glad when he stumbles, lest theLord see it and it displeases
him and he turn away his wrathfrom him.
So you do have that warningDon't take pleasure and rejoice
in your enemy and his failures.
But then we do have otherexamples where we are pretty
(10:30):
much told to do that very thing,and we have lots of examples In
the book of Psalms.
We have what's called theimprecatory Psalm and its
language, and there's quite afew of them.
When you start reading throughthe book, there's 150 psalms and
quite a few of them areimprecatory, asking for God to
take action against your enemies, and so there are quite a few
(10:54):
scriptures like that.
Nate (10:56):
Well yeah, psalm 5810,.
The righteous will rejoice whenthey see vengeance done.
They will bathe their feet inthe blood of the wicked.
Kyle (11:04):
Well, that's a pretty gruesome image, but it's
biblical.
Nate (11:09):
There's an extreme example of schadenfreude.
Kyle (11:12):
Well then, you know, I've got one proverb.
We just read Proverbs 24 thatsays don't rejoice in your
enemy's failures.
But then Proverbs, chapter 11and verse 10, says when the
righteous prosper, the cityrejoices, they shout for joy.
When the wicked die.
Nate (11:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I know that this is a
personification in Proverbs 1,but I think it's talking about
wisdom and folly.
It says I, in turn, will laughwhen disaster strikes you.
I will mock when calamityovertakes you.
You know, there's an example, Ithink, of schadenfreude.
Kyle (11:41):
All right.
So in Jeremiah, chapter 11 andverse verse 20, with regard to
babylon, and we remember thatbabylon was sent by god to
punish the wickedness of thepeople of judah.
But they're still the enemies.
And so jeremiah says in chapter11, verse 20 but o lord of
hosts, who judges righteously,who tests the heart in the mind,
let me see your vengeance uponthem, for to you I have
(12:03):
committed my cause.
O lord of hosts, who tests therighteous, who sees the heart
and the mind, let me see yourvengeance upon them.
So he repeats that a couple oftimes in his book and all over
Deuteronomy 32, verse 43, mosestells them to rejoice, o nations
, with his people, for he willavenge the blood of his servants
, he will take vengeance on hisenemies and make atonement for
(12:24):
his land and people.
Maybe one distinction I'm seeinghere are you guys seeing the
same thing?
That there's a difference inrejoicing over the calamity of
your personal adversary versus,in a more corporate sense, the
adversary of God fails.
Do we rejoice because, well,justice was done?
(12:45):
Do we rejoice because God wonwas done?
Do we rejoice because god won?
Jon (12:47):
can that be isolated into people?
Nate (12:49):
or is it kind of like separating the sinner from the
sin, kind of thing, like likeevil is being uh, beaten and
therefore we are glad at that,um, but individuals, uh, you
know, we, we don't want to seeindividual souls condemned that
sort of.
Is that kind of?
Kyle (13:07):
yeah and I.
One thing I've noticed whenI've gone through a lot of these
examples is that they all seemto be the rejoicing would happen
after they're defeated, afterall hope is gone.
You don't rejoice oversomeone's calamity while they're
still around, while they stillhave a hope of restoration or
repentance, but after they'vebeen defeated.
(13:30):
Then that's when we see theexamples in the Bible and that
might be a very subtledistinction, but I think that
could be an important one too,that we don't gloat over
someone's calamity while they'rein the middle of it.
Nate (13:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, Too soon, too soon, like that phrase, like
the, the, the.
Maybe the meaning in thatphrase is it over someone in the
midst of it or before theircalamity is complete.
Kyle (14:16):
In the Bible they seem to be rejoicing after their enemies
.
They might call for vengeancefrom the hands of God, for him
to take action, for him to takeaction Again.
We always have to rememberRomans, chapter 12, that talks
about in verse 19 that vengeanceis mine, I will repay, says the
(14:36):
Lord.
So it might be an importantconsideration that God we leave
the dispensing of justice to God.
We can call for his vengeance,but I think we also need to
acknowledge most of theimprecatory.
Psalms also involve prettyintense self-reflection.
Jon (14:54):
I mean, if you're having that kind of vengeful thought
about it and getting that kindof enjoyment out of it, I think
it's easy to see when you feellike it's going wrong or not.
You know you're never going tofeel that way about your kid or
someone learning a lesson.
You're not going to feel thatyou don't delight in the harm or
the severity of whatever it is.
(15:14):
Maybe you might be pleased atsome point that they're learning
a lesson, but never at thedetriment of their safety or
health or feelings or anythingright.
So I think it's that thevengeance, these words
associated with it give it thatkind of obvious wrong feel to it
.
A lot of this is probably basedupon your overinflated sense of
(15:37):
righteousness of yourself.
Otherwise it's log and spec kindof thing right, like definitely
don't want this to come from asense of feeling we're higher
and mighty, you know, or like anoverinflated sense of self.
Does that make sense?
Kyle (15:52):
I think, we should consider degrees of this as well
.
That delight or joy insomeone's downfall or calamity
is wrong, but satisfaction inknowing that justice maybe took
place is not quite to the samedegree as delighting.
I mean Ezekiel, chapter 18 andverse 32, god plainly says I
(16:14):
have no pleasure in the death ofanyone, declares the Lord God,
but he's just and righteous andexecutes righteous judgment.
And so he does take the livesof people as an execution of
justice, but it doesn't mean hedelights in it.
He takes no joy in it.
So well, we may look at Osamabin Laden, capturing him, having
(16:39):
him put to death.
That's justice, that's fair.
It feels like there's somesatisfaction that who is
arguably the mastermind of, ofthe attack on our country.
Yeah, justice was brought to.
We might take satisfaction thatwe maybe need to be cautioned
against delighting, getting tooexcited over that or enjoying it
(16:59):
like we don't take pleasure inthe death of anyone but we can
be satisfied that justice isthat a.
Is that maybe a fair way?
Jon (17:07):
yeah, because how does that correlate with the sanctity of
life as well?
We understand that there's acause and effect, we understand
that there is justice in thatsense, but do we delight and are
we happy when someone meetsthat kind of an end?
Kyle (17:21):
And then how do we balance this with David cutting off the
head of Goliath and parading itaround?
Did he get a little carriedaway there?
Because, I was thinking likethat's kind of crossing a line,
but Goliath challenged God.
Jon (17:38):
But that's just because he couldn't put Goliath on a spit
right, like he is too big.
Kyle (17:42):
Yeah, because I feel like I just said maybe we shouldn't.
Nate (17:45):
I don't think that's the case.
I don't think that's right.
Kyle (17:50):
I just said maybe we shouldn't.
I don't think that's the case,I don't think that's right,
maybe we shouldn't get.
I just said maybe we shouldn'tget carried away and rejoicing
or delighting, and then it lookslike David kind of gets carried
away.
But yeah, I don't.
Nate (17:57):
I don't know Like.
I keep coming back to the ideaI love when evil gets what's
coming to it, but does thatnecessarily mean that I want
that person to you know to burnin hell for all eternity?
Like I wish they would havechanged.
Kyle (18:14):
Well, consider what it says in Revelation, chapter 18
and verse 20 regarding Babylonthe great.
Nate (18:22):
Yeah.
Kyle (18:22):
Rejoice over her, o heaven and you saints and apostles and
prophets, for God haspronounced judgment against her
on your behalf.
Yeah, yeah, and that.
I've lost without getting intoit.
Uh, there's different views onBabylon the great.
I'll just suggest that that isRome who persecuted Christians.
And then, similarly, uh,revelation also talks about um.
(18:44):
Revelation, chapter 19.
After this, I heard what seemedto be the loud, the loud voice
of a great multitude in heavencrying out hallelujah, salvation
and glory, power belong to ourGod, for his judgments are true
and just.
He has judged the greatprostitute who corrupted the
earth.
So, all throughout revelation,there are these images of
rejoicing over the enemiesbecause, and their downfall,
(19:06):
because it was, uh, anexpression of God's righteous
judgment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when it's evil, we shouldrejoice in a certain way.
When it is God claiming victoryin judgment over evil, do we
rejoice?
Nate (19:26):
that evil lost or the good won, good one.
Well, I mean, do we lie to?
Jon (19:32):
ourselves too?
Do we just?
Do we kind of as long as we sayglory to be god, you know, uh,
you know, justice was done, yeah, um, are we kind of
whitewashing it as well?
Kyle (19:42):
like I knew, this was going to be a fun one for us to
discuss.
There's I wish you guys couldsee this.
There is a lot of furrowedbrows going on right now.
There's a lot of gears turningin in our heads right there.
Nate (19:54):
I think here's the thing is I let's say we're coming to
like that's okay, but didn't welike to talk over no, no, you
first I understand I would liketo say something I understand
that death through justiceexists and I'm okay with that.
Jon (20:12):
I'm okay with death penalty , I'm okay with life ending as a
matter of justice.
Nate (20:17):
I think that is a biblical principle.
Jon (20:19):
I'm okay with that.
But being okay with that andunderstanding that there's value
in that, there is justice inthat, it's different than
enjoying it.
You see all these times wherepeople forgive someone for
taking the life of their kid andstuff you know in a courthouse,
now that doesn't mean that theydon't have cause and effect and
(20:42):
that they shouldn't haveconsequence for their actions
right.
But you have a situation likethat where you see someone
taking that higher road uh,where forgiveness is.
It's hard to then think, okay,someone doing, someone doing the
opposite, fry them, just beingso exuberantly glad about it.
I, I can't say being in thesame shoes.
(21:04):
You know, I would.
I don't, I wouldn't know what Ifeel, but there's something
that does feel off about thatright that when you would have
that kind of joy in somethinglike that and maybe that
schadenfreude is, maybe I'mgoing to the extreme with like
death penalty and like that kindof justice with schadenfreude,
maybe it's literally like theguy getting pulled over by the
(21:25):
cops, it's maybe.
Kyle (21:25):
Well, that's what I mean by it.
Comes in degrees because, maybe, maybe I shouldn't have gotten
so animated with the, with themustang, the loud mustang guy
that got pulled over.
Jon (21:36):
I mean rolling down your window and cheering and clapping
.
It was probably I got.
Kyle (21:40):
I probably got too excited over what was a probably end up
being a bad day for that guy.
But but also he's drivingaround like an idiot you know,
like an idiot I'm not callinghim.
Jon (21:51):
Indeed, I'm saying his behavior was idiot, like now I
know now what if that guy wasdriving erratically putting
other people in harm and theygot pulled over?
You know, you're always goingwhere's the cop when you need
one right.
And so they actually got pulledover and you're thinking thank
goodness.
Well, you know, goodness, I'mso happy that that person was
(22:12):
humbled and taken off the roadat this point in time because
someone could have been hurt.
Now my joy is a littledifferent than the joy that I
would be going like, ah right,Well, that brings up a good
point, because maybe it showswhy we should be so cautioned.
Kyle (22:27):
I think schadenfreude is just part of human nature.
It's something that, if wedon't even know what that word
means, it's something we allunderstand.
It's something we're alwaysgoing to be fighting this urge
to rejoice over other people'scalamities, and I think we do
need to be careful,understanding that it isn't an
all bad thing.
But also, I think we alwaysneed to pair it with
(22:49):
self-reflection and just cautionourselves from getting carried
away with it.
Because why was I so excited?
Well, it's probably because allthe other times some person who
is driving like an idiot cut meoff or sped by me really fast
in a dangerous way, and therewas no cop, like you just said,
john, where's a cop when youneed one?
(23:09):
Well, so am I really like thatangry with this guy?
He wasn't really that offensiveof a driver, he was just
driving a really loud Mustang inan obnoxious, slightly
dangerous kind of way.
But I've seen a lot worse.
But it's all my pent upfrustrations over the other
people that didn't get caughtand I just dumped it all out on
this guy, and that shows howeasy it is to become misguided
(23:32):
and get carried away.
I think that's another big redflag with this is.
We see how rejoicing over God'svictory or rejoicing over the
defeat of someone who standsopposed to God not our personal
enemy, but true evil when it isdefeated, we see that it can be
good to rejoice over that, butsometimes we do a bad job of
(23:58):
attributing something to Godthat maybe he didn't do.
La is on fire right now.
Okay, yeah.
Jon (24:04):
I mean, I was looking at all these tangible examples
right now and there's that one,and then there's also the
election.
Kyle (24:11):
Yeah, there's one thing with maybe you're a MAGA
Republican but maybe there'sjust some normal people that
just think he was the bestoption, but they don't
necessarily love everythingabout him.
But there is rejoicing becauseyour candidate quote, unquote
won.
But then you see all the theclips on youtube liberal tears
(24:32):
yeah, how many hours do youspend watching?
Jon (24:35):
oh, I don't but, my point is the question here is like how
, how often, as soon as theelection was over that there was
a epidemic starting of people?
Kyle (24:47):
compilations all over the place.
Yeah, liberal tears, there's alittle show called lefties
losing it like that.
Jon (24:51):
That's the the name of the show that started years ago, but
I mean it coined especiallywith the idea of republican
nelson's pointing at actuallyall those people that show is
actually run by the show isactually run by australians.
I think it's really funny.
They look at our nation,they're it's like they're
commenting on it, right, yeah,and the problem is is a lot of
(25:13):
that's baked into humor and sowe need to have like, like humor
is one of those we need to havea good, healthy relationship
with, because humor can can gobad and can can be bad, and well
, then there's also like, oh, Iwas just kidding, right, where
you can?
Kyle (25:27):
you can bail out of a bad if.
If a joke goes badly, you canjust say well, I was just joking
, you know, I didn't mean it,but you get all these situations
like Ruth Bader Ginsburg passedaway, and there were, I think
there were a lot of people thatwere reveling in her death and I
don't know that that was a goodlook for Christians.
That, well, I shouldn't say Idon't know that wasn't a good
(25:48):
look for Christians.
Well, and getting back to theLA fires, I have seen a lot of
people not a lot, but I haveseen some videos going around
Facebook suggesting that the dayafter the Golden Globes, and
there's jokes about.
No one acknowledged God.
Ha ha, we're such a godlesscity.
Then the fires break out.
I think we're quick sometimesto attribute something to the
(26:09):
working of God that we justdon't know.
God is active in this world.
He's sovereign over the wholeworld, but I'm not going to be
so presumptuous as to say, well,that was God doing that, when I
don't know.
Nate (26:20):
It's interesting.
As we're talking, I'm reallythinking about like, am I glad?
I am so glad when evil losesand good wins, just generally
speaking, like it, what I've,you know, and I just I look at
the political realm because,because I think there are things
in the political realm that areevil and I think that there are
things and and people whorepresent good things, and I am
(26:43):
happy when the evil loses andthe good wins, in my opinion.
But then I think about likeindividual, like an individual
on death row.
Maybe they committed a seriouscrime a long time ago and now
they're going to die.
Am I glad that justice isadministered, certainly, but
could I potentially look at thatperson and have some empathy
(27:05):
and go you made a mistake, youknow, and, uh, the result of
that is you losing your life, uh, and am I going to rejoice at
that?
Jon (27:15):
another thing to think about, too, is do we
schadenfreude?
Am I saying that?
Nate (27:19):
you have to say it right schadenfreude, schadenfreude,
just like so, um, do we see thisin the church?
Jon (27:31):
oh, oh, oh, boy, do we ever see this in the church?
I mean, we're bringing in thescale down here, obviously we're
not talking about dramaticthings in the mirror but do you
ever?
Do you ever see this in thechurch?
Do you see someone strugglingwith something and you go?
Nate (27:46):
they got what's coming to, yeah, oh maybe.
Jon (27:48):
So the tree, um, I don't know like I've.
I've obviously yeah, if it's ahuman nature thing, then it's
going to happen in differentscales and so maybe we start.
We start, you know, closer tohome, and then we can scale out
right and closer to home.
I'd say with our families andwith our um, with the church and
(28:09):
with our, with our brethren.
Nate (28:10):
Is is it's like when you're I just thought of this
example Maybe it does or maybeit doesn't apply, but when my
kid, I tell them don't touch thestove, don't get close to the
fire.
And then they touch the stoveor they get close to the fire
and they get burned.
Am I glad that they got burned?
No, but am I glad that theylearned a lesson?
Yeah, oh, I hope that they did.
Jon (28:29):
Yeah, um, but if it's a brethren that you've been
warning and telling them, orthey, they said that's not a
problem.
Or they say my kids are great,they're fine, they're wonderful.
And then one falls away like,do you know?
Like at what point do we, do weever have that kind of you know
, that comeuppance kind of kindof feeling?
(28:50):
And we should?
That's obviously.
We're saying that's wrong.
Right, we shouldn't have thatkind of.
Nate (28:58):
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Weep with those who weep.
We shouldn't be like Nelson.
Jon (29:03):
We shouldn't invert that.
Kyle (29:05):
Yeah, that's Romans 12, verses 14 and 15.
I think that's an important wecould find some sort of closure
on this topic.
I look at it as exercisecaution.
This is just part of humannature.
We all wrestle with thesefeelings, the spectrum of
feelings from simply satisfiedto know that God has dispensed
(29:25):
justice to full-on gloating atthe other extreme.
We need to exercise caution andself-reflection.
Romans 12 and verse 14 saysbless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse.
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Weep with those who weep.
Not rejoice with those who weepor over those who weep.
(29:46):
Similarly, jesus said in theSermon on the Mount love your
enemies and bless those whocurse you.
The mount love your enemies andbless those who curse you.
Knowing that vengeance belongsto God frees me up to simply
love people and show themkindness, knowing that God will
take care of things.
Well, this discussion, much likein studying for it, has been
(30:09):
frustrating in some ways,because when I approach a topic,
I want to understand all of it.
I want to grasp every aspect ofit in my mind and and fully
understand it.
And this is one of those thingsthat I don't.
I don't feel like I come awaywith a hard and fast set of
rules and how to, uh, how tohandle these feelings.
But I think caution iswarranted and we should look at
(30:33):
uh, maybe less is more.
When it comes to schadenfreude,I'm reminded of some examples in
the Bible when David's enemieslike King Saul died.
Well, 2 Samuel 1, the wholechapter is a tribute to the
fallen king.
And you'd look at that andthink well, he should be
rejoicing that his enemy, whotried to kill him on multiple
(30:54):
occasions, is dead.
But he chose to honor the manbecause of his position.
And I think sometimes we rush tomoralize misfortune.
Something bad happens and wewant to apply some sort of
cosmic justice to it or say thatGod has done something, when we
just don't know what God doesand does not do.
(31:16):
One final example is Luke 13,when they come to Jesus and they
told him about the Galileanswhose blood Pilate had mingled
with their sacrifices.
And Jesus answered and said tothem do you suppose these
Galileans were worse sinnersthan all other Galileans because
they suffered these things?
I tell you no, but unless yourepent, you will likewise perish
(31:38):
.
I think in times when we'retempted to rejoice over
misfortune, we need to be slowto do it much like anger slow to
anger but quick to thinkSelf-reflection and make sure
we're not taking too muchdelight in others' misfortune.
Jon (31:55):
Well, thanks, kyle.
Thank you for that.
I mean educating on a new word,hell, no.
Nate (32:01):
I've heard it, I just never knew, what it meant.
Kyle (32:04):
A new word, but a familiar emotion.
Jon (32:06):
Familiar emotion.
And I'd say that you might beable to have that joy inside
that justice is done, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean your
actions outward need to beanything other than what Romans
12, 14 and 15 say.
Bless those who persecute you,bless those who do not curse,
rejoice with those who rejoiceand weep with those who weep.
(32:26):
So thank you for your time.
Thank you for listening to theExhorter podcast.
Nate (32:31):
Stay tuned for a few more episodes Like subscribe and
share with your friends orpeople who maybe something bad
has happened to them and youwant to help them by giving them
this podcast.
It's great.
Would this be more for me?
If something bad happened?
(32:52):
I'm not sure I wasn't thinkingtoo hard.
I wasn't really thinking toohard.
Yeah, you know one of thethoughts that I had and, John,
maybe you can edit this back inor edit it out no, Because it's
worthless.
Maybe I was listening to MelGibson the philosopher.
Jon (33:09):
The old M Gibson, old Mel, let's just call him M Gibson.
Nate (33:14):
But I think he said something that was I think it
was profound, and he said youare responsible for not the
first thought that comes intoyour head, but the second
thought, and you are responsiblefor your first action.
And I thought that's a goodpoint.
You know, maybe our firstthought is schadenfreude, like,
(33:35):
ah, they deserve it, but what'sour second thought?
Okay, well, here is a personwho you know, they, I don't know
, we just we think through thesituation more than just
reacting with our, with ourfeeling.
Jon (33:47):
Yeah, and you can actually have that feeling inside, but
you know, as Christians we aresupposed to walk.
You know different and sodoesn't mean we need to act on
that, do?
Nate (33:56):
we wait for the outward perspective we can.
Jon (33:59):
We can be very empathetic, sure yeah, and still value
justice inside, like that point.
M Gibson, what a scholar yeah,yeah yeah, you may or may not
have found the Joe Rogan podcast.
His house just burnt down whilehe was laughing about it on the
Joe Rogan podcast.
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