July 6, 2025 • 44 mins
What boundaries protect and sanctify your marriage? In this episode, we talk about the so-called “Pence Rule,” opposite-sex friendships, and why 1 Thessalonians 4 calls us to intentional holiness. It's not about fear—it’s about wisdom, trust, and honoring your spouse before God.
Should married people have close friendships with the opposite sex? We unpack the thinking behind avoiding one-on-one time with the opposite sex: Is it fear-based, or a wise way to protect trust? Then we turn to 1 Thessalonians 4 to explore how pursuing holiness and transparency can strengthen emotional intimacy with your spouse.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Exhorted Podcast, where we aim
to stir up love and good worksthrough bite-sized biblical
discussion.
Today, our episode will betaken by Kyle Kyle.
What are we going to learn andchat about today?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm not sure what to call this episode, but we'll
start with the Mike Pence rule,which actually used to be called
the Billy Graham rule beforethat.
What I mean is, you know, acouple of election cycles ago,
when Mike Pence was the vicepresident, some things came up
that people were eithercelebrating on one side or very
critical of on the other.
(00:39):
And it's this idea that hefollowed, essentially the Billy
Graham rules, and for somereason people started calling it
the Mike Pence rule because,well, he's new and and was more
relevant at the time.
But it's a general principlethat's been championed by quite
a few people and it goessomething to the effect of that
that he wouldn't, you know, dinealone with a woman or go to
(01:04):
like parties where alcohol isserved if his wife was not there
.
So it really just boiled downto that idea of not doing things
alone, one-on-one with anotherwoman, you know, apart from his
wife being there.
And you get a variety ofopinions.
And I found this old articlefrom Vox, which we know they've
got a certain political leaningof their own, but this article
(01:28):
starts with just this, thiscritical examination of quote
unquote the Mike Pence rule,saying it deserves a second look
, and the title is that it isn'thonorable.
In fact it's probably illegalis what they're talking about.
And so that's one of theconcerns is is it discriminatory
against?
You know, you can go dine witha male coworker but not a female
(01:48):
coworker.
And I think this really justshows that a lot of people are
just attacking what's on thesurface of this idea without
really digging into the meaningbehind it or looking for nuance.
And so it begins with this, anexample, this quotation of I
don't work with women If they'reattractive, I'm too tempted,
and if they're not attractive,what's the point?
A male partner at a law firmcasually made this pronouncement
(02:10):
one day at lunch, hardlylooking up from his plate.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Everyone laughed and went back to eating, and as if
that's Wait, is that a quote oris that just something someone
supposed, someone would say?
Because that's pretty clever.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
No, no, I just maybe laugh.
I was like sit someone at a lawfirm once.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
What.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
No, it's referenced as an anonymous quote.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Just saying that in the rough and tumble world of DC
law, it isn't even the mostobnoxious thing that was said
that day.
So it is in the context of anactual quote.
And, yeah, I think a lot of usthat maybe would find some value
in the so-called Mike Pencerule would look at that
quotation and say, well, thatguy sounds like a pig and that's
not really.
I think you're, you're strawmanning it.
(02:56):
That's not really.
The idea behind it is they wantto talk about this idea that
it's.
It's what you can't controlyourself.
You don't want to be aroundanother woman because you just
can't control yourself, andthat's sort of what's what's
referenced there with that quote.
But that's not really the ideathere at all.
I think the concept there and Isee their legal concerns and
all that and that that's worthsome consideration.
(03:17):
But I think if we want to lookat what's this really about,
there is some solid materialthere for married folks to learn
from this.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
This is a common practice in the teaching world.
We get training every year onwhat to do and what not to do
with students, and one of thetrainings for male teachers is
do not be alone in a classroomwith a female student.
If, for some reason, that isthe case, open your door.
(03:51):
Make sure the shades on thewindow are open.
Call another co-worker in there, because there have been too
many situations where either badthings happened or teachers
were accused of bad thingshappening and there was no one
there to refute.
Refute what was said, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, I find that kind of but that's
discrimination, so we can't dothat I find that sort of missing
the point the way they, the waythey straw man that with.
If that's your concern, thatit's discriminatory against
female coworkers, you can findways around it.
If that, if you're going to belike Mike Pence, then I would
say don't have lunch.
You know, business lunches.
If it's a social thing likethat's, that's different.
(04:31):
But if you're going to discussbusiness over lunch like well,
maybe don't do that with the meneither, like make it equal.
So there's easy ways to getaround it, because I just find
it almost laughable that theywould criticize this rule so out
of hand, without evenconsidering it.
When you think about how muchscandal is there in DC, how many
times do politicians get caughtwith a mistress or in places
(04:56):
they shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Do you want to know the number?
I would love that John has theempirical evidence 30% of
extramarital affairs begin atwork.
The fact is, a lot of thesekinds of things happen at work,
why you spend a lot of time withthem.
You're there more than you areat home.
That's just the number of hoursin the day.
Yeah, I get what you mean, kyle.
(05:18):
I understand being in acorporation that people would
say you know, I'm not giving thesame opportunities to other
people allows them foropportunities for advancement
and things like this, but mostof the time they're just.
They sneer at most morality andmost perspectives of things
that would be good and right andjust, and I think absolutely
(05:38):
the way around all those is isto just be fair across the board
.
If you're a manager, you justdon't have meetings alone with
other people.
You have another, another co,another co-manager, another
supervisor in the like.
People have annual reviews andyou'll meet one-on-one with your
manager or stuff, and I thinkit's just important.
It's like do it in a open space.
A lot of offices have full wallwindows, like just like.
(06:02):
There's other ways of doingthat that doesn't bring reproach
or opportunity of improprietyinto question with other people.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
It isn't simply that I can't control myself.
If I'm alone with another woman, ok, that's not an unreasonable
thing to consider either is Idon't want to let my guard down
and put myself in a vulnerableposition.
But I think the otherconsideration is I can't control
what other people say about orthink about that situation.
So the narrative is now out ofmy control.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, you need to have a witness there.
You need to have someone therewho can say no, that's not what
happened.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Because that's our policy at summer camp too is
I've got a cabin full of kids,but if it's just me and one
other kid in there, it's liketry to move it along.
Either tell them well, where doyou need to be right now, let's
move it along, so just don'thang out in that situation.
That's not a good position tobe in.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We are now in a world where two people go into a room
and shut that door and there'sjust question about and weird
feelings about that.
And I think this is in allworkplaces.
I think my grandfather was apreacher.
Preachers do this all the time,like they bring in their wife
or they bring in right.
You know they bring in someoneelse, especially if there's a
(07:12):
female who needs to.
You know, talk throughsomething.
It's just a smart tactic and itstinks that you would take
something that is designed toshow respect to other people and
to yourself and to your wifeand to your family members and
everyone.
You take something that'sdesigned to show respect to
people, sure, sure, and youwould use it for a selfish
(07:35):
slander of unequal.
You know workplace, you knowattention and stuff and at the
end of the day, I think there'sways around it.
It got negative press, but Ithink there's ways around it.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Well, here's how I'd like to sort of preface this
episode.
John's already brought up somestatistics, so I got to balance
it out with some scripture.
Let me read 1 Thessalonians 4.
I think this is one of thoseplaces where it introduces a
principle.
You mean verses three throughfive.
Well, I was going to look atverses one through eight, but
specifically three through five.
Yes, yes, so you came up withthat one too, you get a Bible
(08:07):
sticker.
Thank you, thank you, but thisis one of those places where,
like many places in the Bible,it introduces a principle, and
God doesn't spell it out.
For us Says I'm going to tellyou what I expect, but I'm going
to leave it up to you to useyour brain that I gave you to
figure out what this looks likein your life and how to apply it
.
So that's really the way I wantto approach this topic, is I
want to read this principle infirst Thessalonians four and
(08:29):
then maybe ask you guys somequestions how do we apply this
principle?
Finally, then, brethren, weurge and exhort, in the Lord
Jesus, that you should aboundmore and more, just as you
receive from us how you ought towalk and to please God, for you
know what commandments we gaveyou through the Lord Jesus.
You ought to walk and to pleaseGod, for you know what
commandments we gave you throughthe Lord Jesus, for this is the
will of God, yoursanctification.
That you should abstain fromsexual immorality.
That each of you should knowhow to possess his own vessel in
(08:53):
sanctification and honor, notin passion of lust like the
Gentiles who do not know Godthat no one should take
advantage of and defraud hisbrother in this matter, because
the Lord is the avenger of all,such as we also forewarned you
and testified, for God did notcall us to uncleanness, but in
holiness.
Therefore, he who rejects thisdoes not reject man, but God,
(09:16):
who has also given us his HolySpirit.
So he talks about that thateach of us should know how to
possess his own vessel andsanctification and honor, and
that's the principle I want towork with here, because it goes
on to say you don't defraud yourbrother.
I think he's talking largelyabout adultery and infidelity.
Here is when, when you have anaffair with someone else's wife,
(09:36):
you're defrauding your brother.
But he says that you shouldknow how to possess your own
vessel, your, your own body, insanctification and honor.
You should know how to behaveyourself in an honorable way,
and he doesn't spell that out.
So that's what I want us to dotoday, guys.
What does that look like to you?
To, as it says here, possessyour vessel in sanctification
(09:59):
and honor?
What are some rules that maybeyou have in place that safeguard
your marriage and maybe directyour interactions with members
of the opposite gender?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So the one of the first thing that comes to mind
is like if I have some, somecommunication, I need to get out
to some.
Some like a lady here at church,or or like our neighbor, for
example.
She's a single gal with somekids, and sometimes our kids
feed our dogs, so I want to letthem know.
Like when we're going out oftown, whenever I text her, I
(10:31):
always include my wife in thetext message, and one of the
reasons that I do that is justso that there's no like there
can be no thought of oh well,you know Nate was trying to do
this or that with her.
It's like no, no, it's just,let's keep it above board.
(10:51):
You know, everybody's aware ofexactly what's going on.
And same with you know, likefor group meetings.
If I need to get in touch withone of the ladies in my group, I
always include my wife on thetext message so that there can
be no question, like my wifecan't open up my phone and say,
well, why were you textingso-and-so?
(11:13):
Yeah, that's a similar policyI've got.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I mentioned summer camp.
You know I'm in contact with alot of kids that are under the
age of 18.
And you've got to be reallycareful how you interact with
them and a lot of times I've gottheir contact information and
they reach out to me or I reachout to them.
But oftentimes I will includetheir parents or at the very
least I might.
If a kid reaches out and isasking me some Bible questions
or talking to me about something, at the very least I'll let
(11:39):
their parents know like hey, youknow you're appreciate your kid
was talking to me about thisand and just wanted you to know.
Like I want some transparencythere.
Yeah, yeah, and so that's areally safe policy there.
I think that also maybe getsinto a little bit broader
question too about cell phones.
Oh, yeah, anytime you give theimpression that you're you might
(12:01):
be hiding something, I justdon't think that's a good look.
That doesn't build the kind oftrust in marriage that I think
our wives want.
Yeah, jessica knows the the thepin to my cell phone and I know
the pin to hers and I walked upon her sometimes where she's
got my phone open and and so youknow, going through some of the
(12:22):
texts and some of the things Itext with the guys are
embarrassing but, I've gotnothing in there that I'm afraid
for her to see.
Yeah and uh, so I just saved thegood stuff for in person.
Yeah, but I think that's veryimportant to have this, this
open, transparent policy.
Yeah, Uh, the ideal marriage inGenesis says that Adam and Eve
they were both naked and notashamed.
(12:42):
And yes, yeah, the idealmarriage in Genesis says that
Adam and Eve they were bothnaked and not ashamed.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yes, that's true literally, but I think it was
also metaphorically true thatthere was nothing hidden between
them, and that's the idealmarriage.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
So my wife and I have a similar policy and like,
sometimes on Facebook or onTwitter, some things will pop up
that are just inappropriate,and that's happened to me before
and I felt like a sense of ofguilt, like, oh, you know, I
shouldn't, I shouldn't look atthat, um, and it's just as I'm
scrolling through right and I'vetold Ashley about it, and uh,
(13:17):
and then I've deleted apps frommy phone because it's just like
there's too much of this goingon here and I don't want.
I like I've deleted the YouTubeapp because some of the ads it
was like nope, sorry, can't doit.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Now we have the same policies too, and generally it's
like I always feeluncomfortable when someone texts
me directly and you know mywife's not on the thread.
So generally you know, if it'sa quick thing there, you know,
maybe I'll do that.
But if it's like an ongoingconversation, I'll just throw
both of them in a thread andsend it off like that.
But yeah, it's a good policy oneto not have.
(13:54):
It's so funny, though, likepeople in outside of the church,
people in the world, theconcept of someone having your
phone password is like foreign.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Now I have abused that a couple of times where
I've written a message from herphone, like in her girls chat
group.
They were about to pick her upto go out on a girls night out
and, as Jessica, I just textedoh, I'll be right out, I gotta
put my dentures in.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And so for months, all of her friends were like I
can't tell their dentures thoseare really good.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But I've never done anything that like it was funny.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I've never done anything that seriously abused
that trust.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But well, let's kind of roll forward this idea of
transparency and just talk about, not just on our phones but
when we go out.
I think it's important too thatwe should just proactively tell
our wives and I'm going to talkabout like what we should do
with our wives and I'm going totalk from the perspective of a
man but a lot of this there's aninverse of that for our women
(14:52):
listeners too.
I think we have a couple ofwomen listeners maybe.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Statistically, there's gotta be one somewhere.
Yeah so it works on the.
You know a lot of these ruleswork on the inverse.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Maybe some oh yeah, my mom Maybe a little bit of
tweaking if you're a womanlistening and kind of tweaking
it from the other perspective.
So I'm going to talk from thatperspective.
But just understand like itworks both ways here.
But when it comes to my wife, Idon't want to leave her in the
dark on where I'm going and whoI'm going with.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, because I, as a preacher, I've Unless you're
donating plasma to earn moneyfor a vacation, then it's okay,
she doesn't know, as long asit's for a good cause.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I remember yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
So don't keep secrets from your wife, even if it's
for a surprise vacation.
No, but I've, as a preacher,I've had a front row seat to a
lot of uh, just divorces, a lotof marriages just falling apart,
and and I see some trends andI'll probably share some of
those.
It's not a.
It's not a hard and faststatistic like John might bring
up, but it's it's more, um,subjective and personal, but
(15:58):
things that I've seen, trendsI've noticed, and one of them is
this that a lot of times when amarriage falls apart, I've
noticed that one of the partnersstarts going out more and
doesn't always tell the spousethe spouse has left.
One spouse has left at homewondering where's my husband,
where's my wife?
And.
And that that spouse mightcomplain about like, well, she's
(16:19):
always breathing down my neck,she's always wanting to know
where I am, she always trying tocontrol me.
And well, don't put her in thatposition.
Um, I think Jessica has a rightto know where I'm at and who's
there with me.
Yeah, and so I don't leave herin the position where she feels
like she has to ask me and thenshe's like, well, I don't want
to, I don't want to startnagging Kyle, I don't want to
(16:39):
act like his mom.
So I don't put her in thatposition.
Yeah, I just tell her she knowswhen I go somewhere I don't
always say when I'll be back,because you know.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Because then I have a deadline I have to keep Right.
But I don't want to put her inthat position.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I want her to know who I'm going out, where I'm
going and who I'm going with.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So she's not just remove the doubt right away
these days, it's really easy,like if you've got multiple cell
phones and you know an Appleplan thing.
You just have everyone sharedlocations and stuff.
We do that with our kids.
We do that with each other.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Oh yeah, She'll text me.
She's like you said you werecoming home from work and that
was 15 minutes ago and I seeyou're still there.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
She doesn't like it when I see she she's walking
around Marshall's when she saidshe was going to go to the
grocery store.
But you know it works both ways.
I think that there's lots ofdifferent things we can do to
help remove that kind ofguesswork, just kind of squash a
lot of that suspicion thatgenerally might creep in,
especially if they have friendsin the world and stuff.
(17:36):
These things come up Well thatidea of friendship.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
that brings up another related question,
Because if you didn't talk aboutthis.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I have a whole section here about opposite sex
friendships.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Let's just give John a round of applause, he had some
good thoughts on this.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Do you have statistics on it?
I do.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Do you have scriptures on it?
I do.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
This brings up another related question as a
married man and as a Christian,should I have friends of the
opposite gender, and some ofthat's, I think, in how it's
phrased?
Yeah, because I consider my.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I consider the other couples and friends groups right
.
Their wives are my friendsWives.
I consider us as friends andfriendly, but I don't consider
us on an individual friendshipLike couples are friendships.
I don't consider that thatfemale my my direct friend and I
wouldn't hang out with them.
But for me, I have, like, somehistory in this that affects the
(18:39):
way I think and that'sgenerally how it is.
The past and stuff creeps inand you have now historic ways
of thinking about this one.
It was a friend group.
It was another couple we werehanging out with in previous
marriage and got really closeand that ended up, you know,
leading to a broken marriage,two broken marriages, and so you
(18:59):
see that kind of thingfirsthand and you understand it
a lot more.
Some of the stats I want tobring up One, though, is 84% of
people in general believeplatonic friendships between men
and women are possible, eventhough 53.5% of affairs involve
close friends.
(19:19):
So even though most affairshappen between opposite sex
friends, we still kind of thinkand want to think that majority
of that's okay, which meanswe're just not understanding.
We're not understanding wherethe temptation is, we're not
understanding the danger thereand we're just kind of playing
with the lit candle.
You know we just don't reallyunderstand it, and I think that
(19:42):
goes further into justunderstanding that people have
struggles in their marriage.
Yeah, and the first thing thatI have seen is when people have
struggles in marriage, they seekoutside help Someone to talk to
.
And generally the people whoare of the opposite sex are the
most empathetic and or currentlyhaving issues themselves.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, james, chapter one in verse 14, says each one
is tempted when he is drawn awayby his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire is conceived,it gives birth to sin, and when
sin, when it is full grown,brings forth death.
So sin happens as a process.
It starts with something in theheart, and so I think that's
the point you're making, is thatyou need to be on guard,
(20:26):
because sometimes you can be.
I don't have an intention ofhaving an affair or crossing
certain lines with this otherwoman, tension of having an
affair or crossing a you know,certain lines with this, with
this other woman.
But if I start getting chummyand a little too close and maybe
I'm setting it up for maybe Iam strong now, maybe I'm not
tempted now, but what if I getin a big fight with my wife?
What?
if things start getting reallystressful at home.
(20:48):
Uh, we've had a couple of kidsand now things are on, uh, you
know, kind of on the rocks andwell, but things were always
nice when I talked to so-and-so.
Again, I'm speaking from justfirsthand observation and trends
.
So, to answer that question, Ifeel like, yeah, it's kind of
the devil's in the details.
Like, do I have friends thatare, that are women?
(21:08):
Like, yes, I have friends, butdo I have, like friend friends?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You're not like calling them up and like, hey,
let's go hang out Right, so agood illustration is Friday
night.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I went over to John's house and we played a little
impromptu one-off Dungeons andDragons and some of our regulars
were gone, and sorry, Nate youlive too far away, Otherwise we
would invite you more.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
No, it's all right.
Because he wasn't nerdy.
We have to keep our storystraight.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well, I got to start being nerdier.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Some of our regulars couldn't make it, so John had
his teenage son.
He's a hoot.
I like him.
He's got a good sense of humorand he invited his wife, a
little controversially, to play.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
His teenage son did yeah, it was controversial for
James to have a wife right now.
Generally, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I like a pretty manly lineup for Dungeons and Dragons
but it was.
It was actually kind of fun andTaylor was getting into it and
and you know so we were all kindof joking together and she fit
in well and that was really fun,like I consider her one of my
friends.
But then afterwards, like youknow she did, did she do a shift
that night before or somethinglike that, I don't know she, she
(22:16):
works overnight and she wastired.
She went to bed like superearly and when everyone else
started to leave, john and Iwent out.
And you know this alwayshappens when I'm at John's house
.
I'm trying to leave and I'mgetting texts from Jessica like
where are you?
And I'm like, well, I'm justout here talking to John.
I'm trying to leave, but we'rereally having a good
conversation here and so it'slike John.
Difference is like, yes, yes,I'm, I'm friends, she's one of
my friends and, um, you know, wetalk about Bible things in a
(22:37):
group setting.
Sometimes I try to give wordsof encouragement and all that,
like there's a friendship there,but uh, I'm not going to sit
out by my car with Taylor andher and I have you know this
lengthy talk that goes on and onand on the way.
I do with John, like there's adifference.
So, yes, yes, I do have friendsof that are male and female.
I do have friends that are,that are women, but not in the
same way as like either of youtwo guys I'm not going to go
(22:58):
hang out with, and so I thinkit's important that we kind of
make that distinction wrong atsome point like, yeah, maybe,
maybe it won't happen, you knowthis time.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
But if you make it a continual habit to get together
with a friend of the oppositegender and you're married, then
you're just putting yourself inin harm's way and I think it's
(23:32):
just a matter of time.
I think it's just a matter oftime.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, and I think it's important to, maybe we can
bring our wives in on thisconversation.
This is something husbands andwives can have a conversation
together.
Like well, what do you expect?
Like what?
What do you think is crossing aline?
You know, like, just like, evenlike simple things, like this
is something actually.
Something actually I'vestruggled with for a long time
is I want to be one of thosepeople that goes up and gives
everybody a hug.
(23:56):
Oh, I don't do that, but I'mafraid of how it'll be perceived
and like I don't want to makesomeone uncomfortable.
And then, you know, sometimes,like on a Sunday after preaching
, I'm also kind of sweaty, somaybe they don't want to hug
from me.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
No, that's a good point, though I feel like I have
been awkward because I didn'thug you know a member of the
opposite gender who we might befriends with, but I'm just like,
I don't want to upset theirspouse, I don't want to give the
wrong impression, so I don'thug them.
(24:34):
I wave.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Shaking the hand of a lady sometimes is a little bit
awkward.
It's awkward as you just standthere and you want to know if I
wave you want to know real powermove.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
What's that?
Pat a full grown adult on thetop of their head.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I try to think I think there's been friends and
settings and certain people thatI felt maybe comfortable giving
a one arm hug to, you know kindof thing.
I think that you know thereprobably are some differences in
that.
Right To the Cal's not a huggerbut like Steve Johnson, he's a
hugger, he's a two arm bear bearhugger.
Right, certain people are and II enjoy, you know, aspects of
(25:11):
both.
A lot of my male friendswouldn't.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I wouldn't consider as you know, h both a lot of my
male friends wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I wouldn't consider, as you know, huggers kind of
like that.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
But you know some are like, you know half.
You guys don't hug at dungeonsand dragons no, but we call this
that's called a grapple move.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That's different, we do that when we're deer hunting
all the time yeah, uh, that'ssomething that I always kind of
think about is affection towardsthe opposite sex in general,
and when it comes to brethren,we're supposed to have a
stronger you know, emotionalfeel and friendship towards them
.
And so you know, there are somepeople that I might, you know,
(25:46):
hug, you know sidearm hug typething, but it's usually not just
that kind of thing, it's thecompounded perspective of
minimal boundaries.
What kind of boundaries do theygenerally have with people when
it comes to, like the MikePence role, you know, being
alone with people and the kindsof conversations that they get
into.
If you're having a conversationwith people and it gets really
(26:09):
emotional and or it gets intoventing about spouses and things
, I feel like there's certainboundaries that you just need to
be aware of and understand thatyou have.
Maybe it's just not one thing,but whether or not you are very
self-aware or socially awareenough with your spouse and how
their feelings are.
I think that that's one of thebig things is.
(26:29):
I have another stat here.
I have another stat here.
It says 37% of people reportjealousy as a tension in
romantic relationships becauseof friends of the opposite sex.
And so like that says to me givea head pat to people or what's
(26:50):
your comfortability level?
And I think that it's smart,even if they say they're okay
with it, to just have somegeneral good boundaries that
don't involve it, becausepeople's opinions and thoughts
change over time, especiallywith different people.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I do think 1 Timothy 5 and verse 2 is probably one of
those boundaries that'smentioned here and a good
scripture to keep in mind inthese interactions.
It says do not rebuke an olderman, but exhort him as a father,
younger men as brothers, olderwomen as mothers and notice here
, younger women as sisters, withall purity.
Yeah.
So when I imagine this, eventhough I didn't grow up with a
(27:33):
sister, I kind of relate this towhen I started dating my dad,
on the way out the door for myfirst like official date, he's
like, hey, just pretend her dadis with you the whole time and
behave that way.
And I was like, oh, yeah, okaythat I didn't have any intention
of doing anything otherwise,but I thought that was a really
good way to think about it.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yeah, Well and that's not what my dad said.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
There's something to be said about this.
There's it's harder.
I think, from what I've seen andread, it's harder for men to
have friends of the opposite sexthan it is women, because, as
you look at kids growing up, alot of the times they become
attracted to their friends thatare of the opposite sex, a lot
(28:16):
more sometimes than the women do.
We see that in adolescence,somewhere around like the age of
14, puberty, yeah, puberty, um,around the age of 13 to to you
know, and above, and so I thinkthat it's a lot harder.
Boys catch feelings towardsgirls of the opposite sex that
are friends, more so, which iswhy they all get friend zoned
(28:38):
all the time.
Right, that's the.
We have those terms, and so Ithink that it's just something
to understand that that couldhappen to men, especially if
maybe you're feeling like youremotional needs are not met and
it becomes easy to to feelcompanionship towards people,
and I think that we just need tohave that kind of real
(29:01):
understanding of how our brain'sworking and how our feelings
are, and if that, if we'rehaving that kind of feeling
towards someone else, um, it'sgenerally because we're not
having that feeling where weneed to have it.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
And that's why we need to go back and fix.
I think self-awareness is ahuge part yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Fix that thing at home.
That's causing you to to dothat.
Maybe harder said than done,maybe depending upon the
relationship that you're in, butI do think it's just important
to not put those stumblingblocks ahead of you and have
those strong boundaries Wellself-aware, to not put those
stumbling blocks ahead of youand have those strong boundaries
.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, self-awareness is a huge part of this too is
you need to be honest withyourself and your interactions
with a particular friend of theother gender, Like if you start
finding yourself likefantasizing and don't read into
that too much.
But I mean it because, likeagain, I'm going off of trends
I've seen, and a lot of times itstarts with fantasizing about
like what if I'd met you firstbefore I met my, before I met my
(30:00):
spouse?
Like the life, the life I couldhave had with you?
Yeah, it starts with that.
The grass is green.
That's what I mean byfantasizing.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So don't don't go there.
I didn't, I didn't mean it in ain a in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Oh, I just meant like so you meant it in a good way,
I didn't not mean it in in adirty kind of way either, like
that's bad too, but in a moreserious way, like if you find
yourself at all like fantasizingor just thinking about, like
what would life be like marriedto this person instead of my
current spouse?
Or if, if you start making thisperson you're confidant, that
(30:38):
making this person yourconfidant, that's your spouse,
yeah, that's your husband,that's your wife and, and you
know, maybe some of your like,if you're a guy, maybe some of
your guy friends you can confidein.
But if it's a member of theopposite gender, I'm sorry.
Like um, if you need help, youtalk to a married couple like
Jessica and I.
We we've we've talked to peoplebefore like um, women
struggling with situations ormen struggling with situations.
Like you know, we'll talk topeople together as a couple, but
(30:59):
, like you know, you're notgoing to talk to them one on one
?
Yeah, and I'm not going to goconfide in someone else the way
I do my wife or maybe a coupleof my closest guy friends when I
want to complain about my wife.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
The thing is, though, isn't that so much easier to do
with things like?
You have social media and youhave Instagram, you see the best
version of people and theirspouses through pictures at
Disneyland and pictures ofpeople being with their kids,
and oh, isn't he a great father?
And so you see this kind ofidealistic life of these people,
(31:35):
and you go you think about man,if I was in that position with
them, or put my picture on that,and and that's the thing that
was you're seeing the best it isdo you think that they don't
have some core issues down you?
know, down deep, like everyonedoes john?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
do you have the statistics on second?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
divorces a second?
No, I don't have a look at that, but my point is is it's you
want me to look at?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
No, no, Just because I'd be curious to know.
Like you know, the idea of thegrass is always greener, but the
divorce rate, I imagine, isstill fairly high for people.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I'll look that up in about three seconds, but.
But my point is is you canstart then thinking about their
lives as if it's this pictureperfect kind of thing and or how
they are, and then why aren'tyou like them?
Yeah, you start doing thiscomparison thing that we
comparison trap that we'vetalked about before, and when
(32:26):
you get into that comparisontrap, it's so much easier to
then do what you just said,which was, you know and
visualize a different life withsomeone, and you've already
started down that path, becauseall it needs is an open door,
and there's a lot of people outthere looking opening their
doors, looking for a reboot,especially at work and coworkers
and people who have lessrestraint and morality to get in
(32:50):
that way.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Here's our Star Wars reference Don't give sin the
high ground.
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Can I do a whole sermon episode on that, no
matter how confident you are inyour powers, even your new
powers.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
If you have the high ground, you're going to win.
So don't give sin the highground.
Don't put yourself at adisadvantage like that.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I like what you referenced earlier, kyle, which
I think you preached about thismorning in your lesson, which is
sin is a progression.
It doesn't start with the sin.
Typically it starts with thethought, and then that thought
becomes maybe a conversation,and then maybe it becomes an
action, and that conversationand that action are not
necessarily sinful, but the endresult of that is, you know,
(33:31):
going to end up in sin, of thatis, you know, gonna end up in
sin, and so just just don't letthe ball go over the hill and
start rolling down, because it'sjust going to pick up speed and
and it's going to get to apoint where you, you can't stop.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
You can't stop, yep I found it okay.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
so it's 60 to 67% of second marriages end in divorce.
It's 73 to 74% of thirdmarriages that end in divorce.
So if you let that as an optionor that becomes that kind of
scenario and the percentage Ithink grows, probably because
(34:09):
there were boundaries that youhad once up and those have now
been crossed before and it's alot harder to stay together.
It's a lot easier to separate.
We've made it that way in theworld.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
My question is, like, if you're married and you have
a friend of the opposite gender,like why, why Do you not get
your social cup filled byfriends of the same gender?
I mean, like, what is thereason for you to have that
friendship Options?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Well, yeah, not necessarily good, but I think in
the world, and I would sayoutside of the church, I think
it's a super common thing tohave male, female, different.
Yeah, and I think that that'ssome of that cake and eat it too
, kind of mentality of peoplewho have come from the world
into the church and may notrealize and understand that as
(35:05):
boundaries.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
But also as you're growing up.
I mean when I grew up you knowdating and everything was in
preparation for marriage.
Yeah, like that's why that'sthe point.
And so having friends that wereof the opposite sex generally
that's why we kind of see thosefade off over time.
Like they, you end up beingfocused on the person that
(35:29):
you're interested in dating andyou kind of ignore your friends
and your everything world isabout that person, and generally
people feel left out andjealous and or just kind of
discarded and so they go findtheir own pair, bond, and so
generally this kind of stufffades off.
And so if you're tightlyclinging on to friendships and
relationships and people duringall that process, then I don't
(35:54):
know.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You make a good point , though, nate, as far as like
what are you?
What are you?
What are you after If you'renot satisfied?
You know we talk about puttingup boundaries, and the point is
you don't go right up to theedge of the boundary.
The boundary is there, but youdon't walk on the line, and the
point is because what's inbounds should be sufficient.
You know your marriage shouldsatisfy, but then, on the other
(36:15):
side of that, I would also addto your point, nate, what it
says in Hebrews 13, 4 and manyother places marriage is
honorable among all in the bed,undefiled, but fornicators and
adulterers, god will judge.
So on the other side, I wouldsay to the question of why
pursue these kinds offriendships and relationships,
you're playing with fire, I meanthat sounds like you know from
(36:38):
God.
Like is that a threat?
It's a promise?
Like, if you cross theseboundaries and God says I'm not
going to overlook that one,that's a big deal to me and God
is.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
I mean the one.
The major danger of hanging outwith the opposite gender is
sexual sin, and that is one thatGod talks about a lot
throughout scripture and in theNew Testament.
It's like be careful, thiscould happen.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Okay, well, what about?
I can see two scenarios hereand then we can.
I guess we can progress on buttwo scenarios.
One there is a single person infriend groups and everything,
but they and they need like help, um and um, either from a man
you know or someone that thatthey don't have in their life,
and so how might what would be agood suggestion into supporting
(37:28):
their needs and helping themout?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Look, I've been in situations like this where
Jessica and I both just like ifthere's something that I can do
to help out where there's no man, I'll go and do it.
Jessica will come with me andfind something else to do, like
in the house with with with thewoman, and so there's ways to
get around that where you cankind of like you can still, you
can still be there and besupportive and be the friend.
You know I'm still a friend toyou, know all the women in my
(37:52):
life, all the women in thechurch.
They're still my friends, justnot in the same way like you
guys are.
But there's ways to be thatfriend, to be that support,
while still being accountableand reputable.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
My other question is what about someone who listens
to this podcast and say myspouse trusts me and I don't see
any problem with this, and Idon't see any problem with this?
I can imagine someone thinkingI've had friends of you know
opposite sex for all my life andI still do and I'm okay with
(38:25):
that, and my spouse trusts meand we're all okay with that.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
So is that a problem?
Everyone that's blown offfingers in a firework accident
got away with it several timesbefore that.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So you're saying it's a zero-sum game?
It will always lead to issuesand someone can't be the
exception to the rule.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Not if you're a eunuch.
Step, step step, step, step,step.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I'm not saying it will inevitably lead to I'm just
saying it certainly increasesthe odds.
Yeah, and again, it's not justabout you know, I can't control
myself, it's, it's well.
What does this do to?
To percept, you know, thepeople's perception of your
character.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
What message am I sending to to others?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I think that would be a good podcast to kind of talk
about this being above reproachand I and I think that that's
probably we're not used to thatLike a lot of times it's like,
hey, well, just don't cross thatline, but sometimes it's even
getting near that line or makingpeople think that you dance on
that line, and so sometimeswe're talking about removing.
(39:26):
I don't want to bring illreproach on that person.
So I'm going to createboundaries so that no one thinks
ill of them as well as myself.
But I care about them and so Idon't want anyone to think that
they possibly are trying to like, woo a husband away from their
man or do anything.
So I'm not going to lean in tothat possibility of bringing
(39:48):
reproach upon them.
So creating boundaries can dothat, but I don't know if there
is scenarios in our lives thatwe care about that as much.
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?
The idea of being abovereproach is what does that look
like in other aspects of ourlife?
(40:08):
I think that would be a goodconversation.
Next episode maybe.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Well, it's not a complete Exhorter podcast
episode.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
If we don't throw out a future episode that we may or
may not do in the next coupleof years.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I was just going to sum up my thoughts from Proverbs
23 in verse 10 that says Do notremove the ancient landmark,
nor enter the fields of thefatherless, for their Redeemer
is mighty.
He will plead their causeagainst you.
I know that's talking about.
Don't go take advantage ofsomeone and steal their property
.
Don't move the ancient landboundaries in Israel is probably
what that's talking about, butI think that's the general idea
here is that in life, and inparticular in this example of
(40:43):
marriage, there are someboundaries that just should be
there, that should be respected.
It's for your safety and forother people's safety, to
protect you and to protect theirreputations.
Ultimately, you should focus oncultivating the best
relationship possible with yourspouse.
Make that, I mean.
Yeah, I might have some guyfriends I confide in sometimes,
but my wife is my chiefconfidant.
(41:03):
She is the one that is my otherhalf.
We're two lives that have beenmerged into one and when it
comes to friendships, I thinkgive your effort and energy to
friendships of the same genderand just put up some safe you
know boundaries and guards todefine the parameters of your
(41:24):
relationships with people of theopposite gender.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
So you would vote for Mike Pence if he ran again for
office?
That's another question.
Oh, okay, that's anotherquestion.
All right, again for office,that's another question, that's
another question, kyle.
this was a great episode becauseI think it's practical and it's
applying some wisdom to ourrelationships, and especially
those with the opposite gender.
So thanks for bringing this uptoday, kyle.
(41:48):
If you found value in thisepisode, please share it with a
friend, like subscribe, and joinus for part two of this episode
about reputability and beingabove reproach at some point in
the future.
Real, real, real quick, realquick question are you guys
(42:21):
doing pickleball tonight, areyou?
Can I go anytime?
What does my wife do with thekids?
Um well, what do the otherwives do with?
Speaker 1 (42:29):
the kids kind of like hang out and play around and
then we generally have likethere's benches there, so it's
like a whole like like likeriser benches.
Uh, who wants to start kyle,you want to go?
Sure, all right, it's a littlemore lighthearted.
We'll have some fun with thisone, I'm sure.
Yeah, mine is infidelity in theworkplace mine is no big deal.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Mine is death.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
So yeah, it's a little infidelity in the
workplace.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Oh, the mic pincer, what.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Mike Pintrell what's that?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
oh, you have notes.
I don't have notes.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I knew what he was doing so I wanted to have some
ideas.
I saw the Mike Pintrell.
I just didn't know what thatwas are you recording this?
You should be recording this Iam.
My job is to bring theempirical evidence.
Oh, that's right.
So I just brought stats.
I have stats.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
This time I was thinking about maybe making fun
of you.
Yeah, well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
That's always good.
Okay, kyle Kyle, kyle Kyle.
Welcome to the Zorder podcast.
Welcome the Zorder.
Something feels weird.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Sure yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
So 1.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Thessalonians, chapter 4, I think, introduces a
principle All right, bringthose scriptures out man.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
He's showing us his outline here.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
He's got notes made Notes, don't lie.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
You went to chat JBT and said make me some.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Why is your Bible open to Song of Solomon?
You're not going to.
He did not follow the Pencerule up in the Song of Solomon
you're not going to.
He did not follow the Pencerule.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
I was looking at the last chapter of Ecclesiastes,
but oh okay, we can do a Song ofSolomon.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, solomon did not follow the Pence rule.
Welcome to the Exhorted Podcast, where we aim
to stir up love and good worksthrough bite-sized biblical
discussion.
Today, our episode will betaken by Kyle Kyle.
What are we going to learn andchat about today?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm not sure what to call this episode, but we'll
start with the Mike Pence rule,which actually used to be called
the Billy Graham rule beforethat.
What I mean is, you know, acouple of election cycles ago,
when Mike Pence was the vicepresident, some things came up
that people were eithercelebrating on one side or very
critical of on the other.
(00:39):
And it's this idea that hefollowed, essentially the Billy
Graham rules, and for somereason people started calling it
the Mike Pence rule because,well, he's new and and was more
relevant at the time.
But it's a general principlethat's been championed by quite
a few people and it goessomething to the effect of that
that he wouldn't, you know, dinealone with a woman or go to
(01:04):
like parties where alcohol isserved if his wife was not there
.
So it really just boiled downto that idea of not doing things
alone, one-on-one with anotherwoman, you know, apart from his
wife being there.
And you get a variety ofopinions.
And I found this old articlefrom Vox, which we know they've
got a certain political leaningof their own, but this article
(01:28):
starts with just this, thiscritical examination of quote
unquote the Mike Pence rule,saying it deserves a second look
, and the title is that it isn'thonorable.
In fact it's probably illegalis what they're talking about.
And so that's one of theconcerns is is it discriminatory
against?
You know, you can go dine witha male coworker but not a female
(01:48):
coworker.
And I think this really justshows that a lot of people are
just attacking what's on thesurface of this idea without
really digging into the meaningbehind it or looking for nuance.
And so it begins with this, anexample, this quotation of I
don't work with women If they'reattractive, I'm too tempted,
and if they're not attractive,what's the point?
A male partner at a law firmcasually made this pronouncement
(02:10):
one day at lunch, hardlylooking up from his plate.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Everyone laughed and went back to eating, and as if
that's Wait, is that a quote oris that just something someone
supposed, someone would say?
Because that's pretty clever.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
No, no, I just maybe laugh.
I was like sit someone at a lawfirm once.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
What.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
No, it's referenced as an anonymous quote.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Just saying that in the rough and tumble world of DC
law, it isn't even the mostobnoxious thing that was said
that day.
So it is in the context of anactual quote.
And, yeah, I think a lot of usthat maybe would find some value
in the so-called Mike Pencerule would look at that
quotation and say, well, thatguy sounds like a pig and that's
not really.
I think you're, you're strawmanning it.
(02:56):
That's not really.
The idea behind it is they wantto talk about this idea that
it's.
It's what you can't controlyourself.
You don't want to be aroundanother woman because you just
can't control yourself, andthat's sort of what's what's
referenced there with that quote.
But that's not really the ideathere at all.
I think the concept there and Isee their legal concerns and
all that and that that's worthsome consideration.
(03:17):
But I think if we want to lookat what's this really about,
there is some solid materialthere for married folks to learn
from this.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
This is a common practice in the teaching world.
We get training every year onwhat to do and what not to do
with students, and one of thetrainings for male teachers is
do not be alone in a classroomwith a female student.
If, for some reason, that isthe case, open your door.
(03:51):
Make sure the shades on thewindow are open.
Call another co-worker in there, because there have been too
many situations where either badthings happened or teachers
were accused of bad thingshappening and there was no one
there to refute.
Refute what was said, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, I find that kind of but that's
discrimination, so we can't dothat I find that sort of missing
the point the way they, the waythey straw man that with.
If that's your concern, thatit's discriminatory against
female coworkers, you can findways around it.
If that, if you're going to belike Mike Pence, then I would
say don't have lunch.
You know, business lunches.
If it's a social thing likethat's, that's different.
(04:31):
But if you're going to discussbusiness over lunch like well,
maybe don't do that with the meneither, like make it equal.
So there's easy ways to getaround it, because I just find
it almost laughable that theywould criticize this rule so out
of hand, without evenconsidering it.
When you think about how muchscandal is there in DC, how many
times do politicians get caughtwith a mistress or in places
(04:56):
they shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Do you want to know the number?
I would love that John has theempirical evidence 30% of
extramarital affairs begin atwork.
The fact is, a lot of thesekinds of things happen at work,
why you spend a lot of time withthem.
You're there more than you areat home.
That's just the number of hoursin the day.
Yeah, I get what you mean, kyle.
(05:18):
I understand being in acorporation that people would
say you know, I'm not giving thesame opportunities to other
people allows them foropportunities for advancement
and things like this, but mostof the time they're just.
They sneer at most morality andmost perspectives of things
that would be good and right andjust, and I think absolutely
(05:38):
the way around all those is isto just be fair across the board
.
If you're a manager, you justdon't have meetings alone with
other people.
You have another, another co,another co-manager, another
supervisor in the like.
People have annual reviews andyou'll meet one-on-one with your
manager or stuff, and I thinkit's just important.
It's like do it in a open space.
A lot of offices have full wallwindows, like just like.
(06:02):
There's other ways of doingthat that doesn't bring reproach
or opportunity of improprietyinto question with other people.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
It isn't simply that I can't control myself.
If I'm alone with another woman, ok, that's not an unreasonable
thing to consider either is Idon't want to let my guard down
and put myself in a vulnerableposition.
But I think the otherconsideration is I can't control
what other people say about orthink about that situation.
So the narrative is now out ofmy control.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, you need to have a witness there.
You need to have someone therewho can say no, that's not what
happened.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Because that's our policy at summer camp too is
I've got a cabin full of kids,but if it's just me and one
other kid in there, it's liketry to move it along.
Either tell them well, where doyou need to be right now, let's
move it along, so just don'thang out in that situation.
That's not a good position tobe in.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We are now in a world where two people go into a room
and shut that door and there'sjust question about and weird
feelings about that.
And I think this is in allworkplaces.
I think my grandfather was apreacher.
Preachers do this all the time,like they bring in their wife
or they bring in right.
You know they bring in someoneelse, especially if there's a
(07:12):
female who needs to.
You know, talk throughsomething.
It's just a smart tactic and itstinks that you would take
something that is designed toshow respect to other people and
to yourself and to your wifeand to your family members and
everyone.
You take something that'sdesigned to show respect to
people, sure, sure, and youwould use it for a selfish
(07:35):
slander of unequal.
You know workplace, you knowattention and stuff and at the
end of the day, I think there'sways around it.
It got negative press, but Ithink there's ways around it.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Well, here's how I'd like to sort of preface this
episode.
John's already brought up somestatistics, so I got to balance
it out with some scripture.
Let me read 1 Thessalonians 4.
I think this is one of thoseplaces where it introduces a
principle.
You mean verses three throughfive.
Well, I was going to look atverses one through eight, but
specifically three through five.
Yes, yes, so you came up withthat one too, you get a Bible
(08:07):
sticker.
Thank you, thank you, but thisis one of those places where,
like many places in the Bible,it introduces a principle, and
God doesn't spell it out.
For us Says I'm going to tellyou what I expect, but I'm going
to leave it up to you to useyour brain that I gave you to
figure out what this looks likein your life and how to apply it
.
So that's really the way I wantto approach this topic, is I
want to read this principle infirst Thessalonians four and
(08:29):
then maybe ask you guys somequestions how do we apply this
principle?
Finally, then, brethren, weurge and exhort, in the Lord
Jesus, that you should aboundmore and more, just as you
receive from us how you ought towalk and to please God, for you
know what commandments we gaveyou through the Lord Jesus.
You ought to walk and to pleaseGod, for you know what
commandments we gave you throughthe Lord Jesus, for this is the
will of God, yoursanctification.
That you should abstain fromsexual immorality.
That each of you should knowhow to possess his own vessel in
(08:53):
sanctification and honor, notin passion of lust like the
Gentiles who do not know Godthat no one should take
advantage of and defraud hisbrother in this matter, because
the Lord is the avenger of all,such as we also forewarned you
and testified, for God did notcall us to uncleanness, but in
holiness.
Therefore, he who rejects thisdoes not reject man, but God,
(09:16):
who has also given us his HolySpirit.
So he talks about that thateach of us should know how to
possess his own vessel andsanctification and honor, and
that's the principle I want towork with here, because it goes
on to say you don't defraud yourbrother.
I think he's talking largelyabout adultery and infidelity.
Here is when, when you have anaffair with someone else's wife,
(09:36):
you're defrauding your brother.
But he says that you shouldknow how to possess your own
vessel, your, your own body, insanctification and honor.
You should know how to behaveyourself in an honorable way,
and he doesn't spell that out.
So that's what I want us to dotoday, guys.
What does that look like to you?
To, as it says here, possessyour vessel in sanctification
(09:59):
and honor?
What are some rules that maybeyou have in place that safeguard
your marriage and maybe directyour interactions with members
of the opposite gender?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So the one of the first thing that comes to mind
is like if I have some, somecommunication, I need to get out
to some.
Some like a lady here at church,or or like our neighbor, for
example.
She's a single gal with somekids, and sometimes our kids
feed our dogs, so I want to letthem know.
Like when we're going out oftown, whenever I text her, I
(10:31):
always include my wife in thetext message, and one of the
reasons that I do that is justso that there's no like there
can be no thought of oh well,you know Nate was trying to do
this or that with her.
It's like no, no, it's just,let's keep it above board.
(10:51):
You know, everybody's aware ofexactly what's going on.
And same with you know, likefor group meetings.
If I need to get in touch withone of the ladies in my group, I
always include my wife on thetext message so that there can
be no question, like my wifecan't open up my phone and say,
well, why were you textingso-and-so?
(11:13):
Yeah, that's a similar policyI've got.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I mentioned summer camp.
You know I'm in contact with alot of kids that are under the
age of 18.
And you've got to be reallycareful how you interact with
them and a lot of times I've gottheir contact information and
they reach out to me or I reachout to them.
But oftentimes I will includetheir parents or at the very
least I might.
If a kid reaches out and isasking me some Bible questions
or talking to me about something, at the very least I'll let
(11:39):
their parents know like hey, youknow you're appreciate your kid
was talking to me about thisand and just wanted you to know.
Like I want some transparencythere.
Yeah, yeah, and so that's areally safe policy there.
I think that also maybe getsinto a little bit broader
question too about cell phones.
Oh, yeah, anytime you give theimpression that you're you might
(12:01):
be hiding something, I justdon't think that's a good look.
That doesn't build the kind oftrust in marriage that I think
our wives want.
Yeah, jessica knows the the thepin to my cell phone and I know
the pin to hers and I walked upon her sometimes where she's
got my phone open and and so youknow, going through some of the
(12:22):
texts and some of the things Itext with the guys are
embarrassing but, I've gotnothing in there that I'm afraid
for her to see.
Yeah and uh, so I just saved thegood stuff for in person.
Yeah, but I think that's veryimportant to have this, this
open, transparent policy.
Yeah, Uh, the ideal marriage inGenesis says that Adam and Eve
they were both naked and notashamed.
(12:42):
And yes, yeah, the idealmarriage in Genesis says that
Adam and Eve they were bothnaked and not ashamed.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yes, that's true literally, but I think it was
also metaphorically true thatthere was nothing hidden between
them, and that's the idealmarriage.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
So my wife and I have a similar policy and like,
sometimes on Facebook or onTwitter, some things will pop up
that are just inappropriate,and that's happened to me before
and I felt like a sense of ofguilt, like, oh, you know, I
shouldn't, I shouldn't look atthat, um, and it's just as I'm
scrolling through right and I'vetold Ashley about it, and uh,
(13:17):
and then I've deleted apps frommy phone because it's just like
there's too much of this goingon here and I don't want.
I like I've deleted the YouTubeapp because some of the ads it
was like nope, sorry, can't doit.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Now we have the same policies too, and generally it's
like I always feeluncomfortable when someone texts
me directly and you know mywife's not on the thread.
So generally you know, if it'sa quick thing there, you know,
maybe I'll do that.
But if it's like an ongoingconversation, I'll just throw
both of them in a thread andsend it off like that.
But yeah, it's a good policy oneto not have.
(13:54):
It's so funny, though, likepeople in outside of the church,
people in the world, theconcept of someone having your
phone password is like foreign.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Now I have abused that a couple of times where
I've written a message from herphone, like in her girls chat
group.
They were about to pick her upto go out on a girls night out
and, as Jessica, I just textedoh, I'll be right out, I gotta
put my dentures in.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And so for months, all of her friends were like I
can't tell their dentures thoseare really good.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But I've never done anything that like it was funny.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I've never done anything that seriously abused
that trust.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But well, let's kind of roll forward this idea of
transparency and just talk about, not just on our phones but
when we go out.
I think it's important too thatwe should just proactively tell
our wives and I'm going to talkabout like what we should do
with our wives and I'm going totalk from the perspective of a
man but a lot of this there's aninverse of that for our women
(14:52):
listeners too.
I think we have a couple ofwomen listeners maybe.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Statistically, there's gotta be one somewhere.
Yeah so it works on the.
You know a lot of these ruleswork on the inverse.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Maybe some oh yeah, my mom Maybe a little bit of
tweaking if you're a womanlistening and kind of tweaking
it from the other perspective.
So I'm going to talk from thatperspective.
But just understand like itworks both ways here.
But when it comes to my wife, Idon't want to leave her in the
dark on where I'm going and whoI'm going with.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, because I, as a preacher, I've Unless you're
donating plasma to earn moneyfor a vacation, then it's okay,
she doesn't know, as long asit's for a good cause.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I remember yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
So don't keep secrets from your wife, even if it's
for a surprise vacation.
No, but I've, as a preacher,I've had a front row seat to a
lot of uh, just divorces, a lotof marriages just falling apart,
and and I see some trends andI'll probably share some of
those.
It's not a.
It's not a hard and faststatistic like John might bring
up, but it's it's more, um,subjective and personal, but
(15:58):
things that I've seen, trendsI've noticed, and one of them is
this that a lot of times when amarriage falls apart, I've
noticed that one of the partnersstarts going out more and
doesn't always tell the spousethe spouse has left.
One spouse has left at homewondering where's my husband,
where's my wife?
And.
And that that spouse mightcomplain about like, well, she's
(16:19):
always breathing down my neck,she's always wanting to know
where I am, she always trying tocontrol me.
And well, don't put her in thatposition.
Um, I think Jessica has a rightto know where I'm at and who's
there with me.
Yeah, and so I don't leave herin the position where she feels
like she has to ask me and thenshe's like, well, I don't want
to, I don't want to startnagging Kyle, I don't want to
(16:39):
act like his mom.
So I don't put her in thatposition.
Yeah, I just tell her she knowswhen I go somewhere I don't
always say when I'll be back,because you know.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Because then I have a deadline I have to keep Right.
But I don't want to put her inthat position.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I want her to know who I'm going out, where I'm
going and who I'm going with.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So she's not just remove the doubt right away
these days, it's really easy,like if you've got multiple cell
phones and you know an Appleplan thing.
You just have everyone sharedlocations and stuff.
We do that with our kids.
We do that with each other.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Oh yeah, She'll text me.
She's like you said you werecoming home from work and that
was 15 minutes ago and I seeyou're still there.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
She doesn't like it when I see she she's walking
around Marshall's when she saidshe was going to go to the
grocery store.
But you know it works both ways.
I think that there's lots ofdifferent things we can do to
help remove that kind ofguesswork, just kind of squash a
lot of that suspicion thatgenerally might creep in,
especially if they have friendsin the world and stuff.
(17:36):
These things come up Well thatidea of friendship.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
that brings up another related question,
Because if you didn't talk aboutthis.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I have a whole section here about opposite sex
friendships.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Let's just give John a round of applause, he had some
good thoughts on this.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Do you have statistics on it?
I do.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Do you have scriptures on it?
I do.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
This brings up another related question as a
married man and as a Christian,should I have friends of the
opposite gender, and some ofthat's, I think, in how it's
phrased?
Yeah, because I consider my.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I consider the other couples and friends groups right
.
Their wives are my friendsWives.
I consider us as friends andfriendly, but I don't consider
us on an individual friendshipLike couples are friendships.
I don't consider that thatfemale my my direct friend and I
wouldn't hang out with them.
But for me, I have, like, somehistory in this that affects the
(18:39):
way I think and that'sgenerally how it is.
The past and stuff creeps inand you have now historic ways
of thinking about this one.
It was a friend group.
It was another couple we werehanging out with in previous
marriage and got really closeand that ended up, you know,
leading to a broken marriage,two broken marriages, and so you
(18:59):
see that kind of thingfirsthand and you understand it
a lot more.
Some of the stats I want tobring up One, though, is 84% of
people in general believeplatonic friendships between men
and women are possible, eventhough 53.5% of affairs involve
close friends.
(19:19):
So even though most affairshappen between opposite sex
friends, we still kind of thinkand want to think that majority
of that's okay, which meanswe're just not understanding.
We're not understanding wherethe temptation is, we're not
understanding the danger thereand we're just kind of playing
with the lit candle.
You know we just don't reallyunderstand it, and I think that
(19:42):
goes further into justunderstanding that people have
struggles in their marriage.
Yeah, and the first thing thatI have seen is when people have
struggles in marriage, they seekoutside help Someone to talk to
.
And generally the people whoare of the opposite sex are the
most empathetic and or currentlyhaving issues themselves.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, james, chapter one in verse 14, says each one
is tempted when he is drawn awayby his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire is conceived,it gives birth to sin, and when
sin, when it is full grown,brings forth death.
So sin happens as a process.
It starts with something in theheart, and so I think that's
the point you're making, is thatyou need to be on guard,
(20:26):
because sometimes you can be.
I don't have an intention ofhaving an affair or crossing
certain lines with this otherwoman, tension of having an
affair or crossing a you know,certain lines with this, with
this other woman.
But if I start getting chummyand a little too close and maybe
I'm setting it up for maybe Iam strong now, maybe I'm not
tempted now, but what if I getin a big fight with my wife?
What?
if things start getting reallystressful at home.
(20:48):
Uh, we've had a couple of kidsand now things are on, uh, you
know, kind of on the rocks andwell, but things were always
nice when I talked to so-and-so.
Again, I'm speaking from justfirsthand observation and trends
.
So, to answer that question, Ifeel like, yeah, it's kind of
the devil's in the details.
Like, do I have friends thatare, that are women?
(21:08):
Like, yes, I have friends, butdo I have, like friend friends?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You're not like calling them up and like, hey,
let's go hang out Right, so agood illustration is Friday
night.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I went over to John's house and we played a little
impromptu one-off Dungeons andDragons and some of our regulars
were gone, and sorry, Nate youlive too far away, Otherwise we
would invite you more.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
No, it's all right.
Because he wasn't nerdy.
We have to keep our storystraight.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well, I got to start being nerdier.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Some of our regulars couldn't make it, so John had
his teenage son.
He's a hoot.
I like him.
He's got a good sense of humorand he invited his wife, a
little controversially, to play.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
His teenage son did yeah, it was controversial for
James to have a wife right now.
Generally, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I like a pretty manly lineup for Dungeons and Dragons
but it was.
It was actually kind of fun andTaylor was getting into it and
and you know so we were all kindof joking together and she fit
in well and that was really fun,like I consider her one of my
friends.
But then afterwards, like youknow she did, did she do a shift
that night before or somethinglike that, I don't know she, she
(22:16):
works overnight and she wastired.
She went to bed like superearly and when everyone else
started to leave, john and Iwent out.
And you know this alwayshappens when I'm at John's house
.
I'm trying to leave and I'mgetting texts from Jessica like
where are you?
And I'm like, well, I'm justout here talking to John.
I'm trying to leave, but we'rereally having a good
conversation here and so it'slike John.
Difference is like, yes, yes,I'm, I'm friends, she's one of
my friends and, um, you know, wetalk about Bible things in a
(22:37):
group setting.
Sometimes I try to give wordsof encouragement and all that,
like there's a friendship there,but uh, I'm not going to sit
out by my car with Taylor andher and I have you know this
lengthy talk that goes on and onand on the way.
I do with John, like there's adifference.
So, yes, yes, I do have friendsof that are male and female.
I do have friends that are,that are women, but not in the
same way as like either of youtwo guys I'm not going to go
(22:58):
hang out with, and so I thinkit's important that we kind of
make that distinction wrong atsome point like, yeah, maybe,
maybe it won't happen, you knowthis time.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
But if you make it a continual habit to get together
with a friend of the oppositegender and you're married, then
you're just putting yourself inin harm's way and I think it's
(23:32):
just a matter of time.
I think it's just a matter oftime.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, and I think it's important to, maybe we can
bring our wives in on thisconversation.
This is something husbands andwives can have a conversation
together.
Like well, what do you expect?
Like what?
What do you think is crossing aline?
You know, like, just like, evenlike simple things, like this
is something actually.
Something actually I'vestruggled with for a long time
is I want to be one of thosepeople that goes up and gives
everybody a hug.
(23:56):
Oh, I don't do that, but I'mafraid of how it'll be perceived
and like I don't want to makesomeone uncomfortable.
And then, you know, sometimes,like on a Sunday after preaching
, I'm also kind of sweaty, somaybe they don't want to hug
from me.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
No, that's a good point, though I feel like I have
been awkward because I didn'thug you know a member of the
opposite gender who we might befriends with, but I'm just like,
I don't want to upset theirspouse, I don't want to give the
wrong impression, so I don'thug them.
(24:34):
I wave.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Shaking the hand of a lady sometimes is a little bit
awkward.
It's awkward as you just standthere and you want to know if I
wave you want to know real powermove.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
What's that?
Pat a full grown adult on thetop of their head.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I try to think I think there's been friends and
settings and certain people thatI felt maybe comfortable giving
a one arm hug to, you know kindof thing.
I think that you know thereprobably are some differences in
that.
Right To the Cal's not a huggerbut like Steve Johnson, he's a
hugger, he's a two arm bear bearhugger.
Right, certain people are and II enjoy, you know, aspects of
(25:11):
both.
A lot of my male friendswouldn't.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I wouldn't consider as you know, h both a lot of my
male friends wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I wouldn't consider, as you know, huggers kind of
like that.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
But you know some are like, you know half.
You guys don't hug at dungeonsand dragons no, but we call this
that's called a grapple move.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That's different, we do that when we're deer hunting
all the time yeah, uh, that'ssomething that I always kind of
think about is affection towardsthe opposite sex in general,
and when it comes to brethren,we're supposed to have a
stronger you know, emotionalfeel and friendship towards them
.
And so you know, there are somepeople that I might, you know,
(25:46):
hug, you know sidearm hug typething, but it's usually not just
that kind of thing, it's thecompounded perspective of
minimal boundaries.
What kind of boundaries do theygenerally have with people when
it comes to, like the MikePence role, you know, being
alone with people and the kindsof conversations that they get
into.
If you're having a conversationwith people and it gets really
(26:09):
emotional and or it gets intoventing about spouses and things
, I feel like there's certainboundaries that you just need to
be aware of and understand thatyou have.
Maybe it's just not one thing,but whether or not you are very
self-aware or socially awareenough with your spouse and how
their feelings are.
I think that that's one of thebig things is.
(26:29):
I have another stat here.
I have another stat here.
It says 37% of people reportjealousy as a tension in
romantic relationships becauseof friends of the opposite sex.
And so like that says to me givea head pat to people or what's
(26:50):
your comfortability level?
And I think that it's smart,even if they say they're okay
with it, to just have somegeneral good boundaries that
don't involve it, becausepeople's opinions and thoughts
change over time, especiallywith different people.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I do think 1 Timothy 5 and verse 2 is probably one of
those boundaries that'smentioned here and a good
scripture to keep in mind inthese interactions.
It says do not rebuke an olderman, but exhort him as a father,
younger men as brothers, olderwomen as mothers and notice here
, younger women as sisters, withall purity.
Yeah.
So when I imagine this, eventhough I didn't grow up with a
(27:33):
sister, I kind of relate this towhen I started dating my dad,
on the way out the door for myfirst like official date, he's
like, hey, just pretend her dadis with you the whole time and
behave that way.
And I was like, oh, yeah, okaythat I didn't have any intention
of doing anything otherwise,but I thought that was a really
good way to think about it.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yeah, Well and that's not what my dad said.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
There's something to be said about this.
There's it's harder.
I think, from what I've seen andread, it's harder for men to
have friends of the opposite sexthan it is women, because, as
you look at kids growing up, alot of the times they become
attracted to their friends thatare of the opposite sex, a lot
(28:16):
more sometimes than the women do.
We see that in adolescence,somewhere around like the age of
14, puberty, yeah, puberty, um,around the age of 13 to to you
know, and above, and so I thinkthat it's a lot harder.
Boys catch feelings towardsgirls of the opposite sex that
are friends, more so, which iswhy they all get friend zoned
(28:38):
all the time.
Right, that's the.
We have those terms, and so Ithink that it's just something
to understand that that couldhappen to men, especially if
maybe you're feeling like youremotional needs are not met and
it becomes easy to to feelcompanionship towards people,
and I think that we just need tohave that kind of real
(29:01):
understanding of how our brain'sworking and how our feelings
are, and if that, if we'rehaving that kind of feeling
towards someone else, um, it'sgenerally because we're not
having that feeling where weneed to have it.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
And that's why we need to go back and fix.
I think self-awareness is ahuge part yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Fix that thing at home.
That's causing you to to dothat.
Maybe harder said than done,maybe depending upon the
relationship that you're in, butI do think it's just important
to not put those stumblingblocks ahead of you and have
those strong boundaries Wellself-aware, to not put those
stumbling blocks ahead of youand have those strong boundaries
.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, self-awareness is a huge part of this too is
you need to be honest withyourself and your interactions
with a particular friend of theother gender, Like if you start
finding yourself likefantasizing and don't read into
that too much.
But I mean it because, likeagain, I'm going off of trends
I've seen, and a lot of times itstarts with fantasizing about
like what if I'd met you firstbefore I met my, before I met my
(30:00):
spouse?
Like the life, the life I couldhave had with you?
Yeah, it starts with that.
The grass is green.
That's what I mean byfantasizing.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So don't don't go there.
I didn't, I didn't mean it in ain a in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Oh, I just meant like so you meant it in a good way,
I didn't not mean it in in adirty kind of way either, like
that's bad too, but in a moreserious way, like if you find
yourself at all like fantasizingor just thinking about, like
what would life be like marriedto this person instead of my
current spouse?
Or if, if you start making thisperson you're confidant, that
(30:38):
making this person yourconfidant, that's your spouse,
yeah, that's your husband,that's your wife and, and you
know, maybe some of your like,if you're a guy, maybe some of
your guy friends you can confidein.
But if it's a member of theopposite gender, I'm sorry.
Like um, if you need help, youtalk to a married couple like
Jessica and I.
We we've we've talked to peoplebefore like um, women
struggling with situations ormen struggling with situations.
Like you know, we'll talk topeople together as a couple, but
(30:59):
, like you know, you're notgoing to talk to them one on one
?
Yeah, and I'm not going to goconfide in someone else the way
I do my wife or maybe a coupleof my closest guy friends when I
want to complain about my wife.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
The thing is, though, isn't that so much easier to do
with things like?
You have social media and youhave Instagram, you see the best
version of people and theirspouses through pictures at
Disneyland and pictures ofpeople being with their kids,
and oh, isn't he a great father?
And so you see this kind ofidealistic life of these people,
(31:35):
and you go you think about man,if I was in that position with
them, or put my picture on that,and and that's the thing that
was you're seeing the best it isdo you think that they don't
have some core issues down you?
know, down deep, like everyonedoes john?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
do you have the statistics on second?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
divorces a second?
No, I don't have a look at that, but my point is is it's you
want me to look at?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
No, no, Just because I'd be curious to know.
Like you know, the idea of thegrass is always greener, but the
divorce rate, I imagine, isstill fairly high for people.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I'll look that up in about three seconds, but.
But my point is is you canstart then thinking about their
lives as if it's this pictureperfect kind of thing and or how
they are, and then why aren'tyou like them?
Yeah, you start doing thiscomparison thing that we
comparison trap that we'vetalked about before, and when
(32:26):
you get into that comparisontrap, it's so much easier to
then do what you just said,which was, you know and
visualize a different life withsomeone, and you've already
started down that path, becauseall it needs is an open door,
and there's a lot of people outthere looking opening their
doors, looking for a reboot,especially at work and coworkers
and people who have lessrestraint and morality to get in
(32:50):
that way.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Here's our Star Wars reference Don't give sin the
high ground.
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Can I do a whole sermon episode on that, no
matter how confident you are inyour powers, even your new
powers.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
If you have the high ground, you're going to win.
So don't give sin the highground.
Don't put yourself at adisadvantage like that.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I like what you referenced earlier, kyle, which
I think you preached about thismorning in your lesson, which is
sin is a progression.
It doesn't start with the sin.
Typically it starts with thethought, and then that thought
becomes maybe a conversation,and then maybe it becomes an
action, and that conversationand that action are not
necessarily sinful, but the endresult of that is, you know,
(33:31):
going to end up in sin, of thatis, you know, gonna end up in
sin, and so just just don't letthe ball go over the hill and
start rolling down, because it'sjust going to pick up speed and
and it's going to get to apoint where you, you can't stop.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
You can't stop, yep I found it okay.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
so it's 60 to 67% of second marriages end in divorce.
It's 73 to 74% of thirdmarriages that end in divorce.
So if you let that as an optionor that becomes that kind of
scenario and the percentage Ithink grows, probably because
(34:09):
there were boundaries that youhad once up and those have now
been crossed before and it's alot harder to stay together.
It's a lot easier to separate.
We've made it that way in theworld.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
My question is, like, if you're married and you have
a friend of the opposite gender,like why, why Do you not get
your social cup filled byfriends of the same gender?
I mean, like, what is thereason for you to have that
friendship Options?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Well, yeah, not necessarily good, but I think in
the world, and I would sayoutside of the church, I think
it's a super common thing tohave male, female, different.
Yeah, and I think that that'ssome of that cake and eat it too
, kind of mentality of peoplewho have come from the world
into the church and may notrealize and understand that as
(35:05):
boundaries.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
But also as you're growing up.
I mean when I grew up you knowdating and everything was in
preparation for marriage.
Yeah, like that's why that'sthe point.
And so having friends that wereof the opposite sex generally
that's why we kind of see thosefade off over time.
Like they, you end up beingfocused on the person that
(35:29):
you're interested in dating andyou kind of ignore your friends
and your everything world isabout that person, and generally
people feel left out andjealous and or just kind of
discarded and so they go findtheir own pair, bond, and so
generally this kind of stufffades off.
And so if you're tightlyclinging on to friendships and
relationships and people duringall that process, then I don't
(35:54):
know.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You make a good point , though, nate, as far as like
what are you?
What are you?
What are you after If you'renot satisfied?
You know we talk about puttingup boundaries, and the point is
you don't go right up to theedge of the boundary.
The boundary is there, but youdon't walk on the line, and the
point is because what's inbounds should be sufficient.
You know your marriage shouldsatisfy, but then, on the other
(36:15):
side of that, I would also addto your point, nate, what it
says in Hebrews 13, 4 and manyother places marriage is
honorable among all in the bed,undefiled, but fornicators and
adulterers, god will judge.
So on the other side, I wouldsay to the question of why
pursue these kinds offriendships and relationships,
you're playing with fire, I meanthat sounds like you know from
(36:38):
God.
Like is that a threat?
It's a promise?
Like, if you cross theseboundaries and God says I'm not
going to overlook that one,that's a big deal to me and God
is.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
I mean the one.
The major danger of hanging outwith the opposite gender is
sexual sin, and that is one thatGod talks about a lot
throughout scripture and in theNew Testament.
It's like be careful, thiscould happen.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Okay, well, what about?
I can see two scenarios hereand then we can.
I guess we can progress on buttwo scenarios.
One there is a single person infriend groups and everything,
but they and they need like help, um and um, either from a man
you know or someone that thatthey don't have in their life,
and so how might what would be agood suggestion into supporting
(37:28):
their needs and helping themout?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Look, I've been in situations like this where
Jessica and I both just like ifthere's something that I can do
to help out where there's no man, I'll go and do it.
Jessica will come with me andfind something else to do, like
in the house with with with thewoman, and so there's ways to
get around that where you cankind of like you can still, you
can still be there and besupportive and be the friend.
You know I'm still a friend toyou, know all the women in my
(37:52):
life, all the women in thechurch.
They're still my friends, justnot in the same way like you
guys are.
But there's ways to be thatfriend, to be that support,
while still being accountableand reputable.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
My other question is what about someone who listens
to this podcast and say myspouse trusts me and I don't see
any problem with this, and Idon't see any problem with this?
I can imagine someone thinkingI've had friends of you know
opposite sex for all my life andI still do and I'm okay with
(38:25):
that, and my spouse trusts meand we're all okay with that.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
So is that a problem?
Everyone that's blown offfingers in a firework accident
got away with it several timesbefore that.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So you're saying it's a zero-sum game?
It will always lead to issuesand someone can't be the
exception to the rule.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Not if you're a eunuch.
Step, step step, step, step,step.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I'm not saying it will inevitably lead to I'm just
saying it certainly increasesthe odds.
Yeah, and again, it's not justabout you know, I can't control
myself, it's, it's well.
What does this do to?
To percept, you know, thepeople's perception of your
character.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
What message am I sending to to others?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I think that would be a good podcast to kind of talk
about this being above reproachand I and I think that that's
probably we're not used to thatLike a lot of times it's like,
hey, well, just don't cross thatline, but sometimes it's even
getting near that line or makingpeople think that you dance on
that line, and so sometimeswe're talking about removing.
(39:26):
I don't want to bring illreproach on that person.
So I'm going to createboundaries so that no one thinks
ill of them as well as myself.
But I care about them and so Idon't want anyone to think that
they possibly are trying to like, woo a husband away from their
man or do anything.
So I'm not going to lean in tothat possibility of bringing
(39:48):
reproach upon them.
So creating boundaries can dothat, but I don't know if there
is scenarios in our lives thatwe care about that as much.
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?
The idea of being abovereproach is what does that look
like in other aspects of ourlife?
(40:08):
I think that would be a goodconversation.
Next episode maybe.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Well, it's not a complete Exhorter podcast
episode.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
If we don't throw out a future episode that we may or
may not do in the next coupleof years.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I was just going to sum up my thoughts from Proverbs
23 in verse 10 that says Do notremove the ancient landmark,
nor enter the fields of thefatherless, for their Redeemer
is mighty.
He will plead their causeagainst you.
I know that's talking about.
Don't go take advantage ofsomeone and steal their property
.
Don't move the ancient landboundaries in Israel is probably
what that's talking about, butI think that's the general idea
here is that in life, and inparticular in this example of
(40:43):
marriage, there are someboundaries that just should be
there, that should be respected.
It's for your safety and forother people's safety, to
protect you and to protect theirreputations.
Ultimately, you should focus oncultivating the best
relationship possible with yourspouse.
Make that, I mean.
Yeah, I might have some guyfriends I confide in sometimes,
but my wife is my chiefconfidant.
(41:03):
She is the one that is my otherhalf.
We're two lives that have beenmerged into one and when it
comes to friendships, I thinkgive your effort and energy to
friendships of the same genderand just put up some safe you
know boundaries and guards todefine the parameters of your
(41:24):
relationships with people of theopposite gender.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
So you would vote for Mike Pence if he ran again for
office?
That's another question.
Oh, okay, that's anotherquestion.
All right, again for office,that's another question, that's
another question, kyle.
this was a great episode becauseI think it's practical and it's
applying some wisdom to ourrelationships, and especially
those with the opposite gender.
So thanks for bringing this uptoday, kyle.
(41:48):
If you found value in thisepisode, please share it with a
friend, like subscribe, and joinus for part two of this episode
about reputability and beingabove reproach at some point in
the future.
Real, real, real quick, realquick question are you guys
(42:21):
doing pickleball tonight, areyou?
Can I go anytime?
What does my wife do with thekids?
Um well, what do the otherwives do with?
Speaker 1 (42:29):
the kids kind of like hang out and play around and
then we generally have likethere's benches there, so it's
like a whole like like likeriser benches.
Uh, who wants to start kyle,you want to go?
Sure, all right, it's a littlemore lighthearted.
We'll have some fun with thisone, I'm sure.
Yeah, mine is infidelity in theworkplace mine is no big deal.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Mine is death.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
So yeah, it's a little infidelity in the
workplace.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Oh, the mic pincer, what.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Mike Pintrell what's that?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
oh, you have notes.
I don't have notes.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I knew what he was doing so I wanted to have some
ideas.
I saw the Mike Pintrell.
I just didn't know what thatwas are you recording this?
You should be recording this Iam.
My job is to bring theempirical evidence.
Oh, that's right.
So I just brought stats.
I have stats.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
This time I was thinking about maybe making fun
of you.
Yeah, well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
That's always good.
Okay, kyle Kyle, kyle Kyle.
Welcome to the Zorder podcast.
Welcome the Zorder.
Something feels weird.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Sure yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
So 1.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Thessalonians, chapter 4, I think, introduces a
principle All right, bringthose scriptures out man.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
He's showing us his outline here.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
He's got notes made Notes, don't lie.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
You went to chat JBT and said make me some.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Why is your Bible open to Song of Solomon?
You're not going to.
He did not follow the Pencerule up in the Song of Solomon
you're not going to.
He did not follow the Pencerule.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
I was looking at the last chapter of Ecclesiastes,
but oh okay, we can do a Song ofSolomon.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, solomon did not follow the Pence rule.
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