November 4, 2025 • 50 mins
What if the path to stronger churches begins long before anyone is asked to serve? We dig into the surprising power of aspiration—how aiming toward the biblical qualities of an elder can shape every believer’s character, whether the title ever comes or not. Is aspiring to be an elder only for a few? We argue it’s a vision for everyone.
"If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task" (1 Tim 3:1). This episode reframes “elder qualifications” as a roadmap for every disciple. We walk through 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, press into the hard questions (What if I’ve blown it? What if my time is too tight? What if I never become an elder?), and get practical about training hospitality and integrity at home—long before anyone is nominated.
Scripture references: 1 Timothy 3:1–7; Titus 1:5–9; Romans 8:28; 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 12; 2 Samuel 11; Ephesians 4.
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Episode Transcript
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Jon (00:05):
Welcome to the Exorder Podcast, where aimed to stir up
love and good works throughbite-sized biblical discussion.
Some name to conversationdepends on who does the intro.
Um, Kyle, you are leading us inuh to the discussion today.
What are we gonna talk about?
Kyle (00:24):
Well, I had an idea, but I I I think I'd rather just talk
about what's on my heart.
I really want to talk about theneutron movie right now.
Nate (00:31):
Okay, well.
I haven't seen it.
Yeah, that might not appeal toand we're gonna spoil it for
that might not be everyone elsewho hasn't seen it.
That might not appeal to ouraudience.
Kyle (00:42):
So instead, let's talk about aspiring to the office of
overseer.
Okay.
How are you preparing to be anelder?
That's really the question Ithe central question I want to
focus on today.
Uh and there's two main textsthat we might bounce back and
forth between, and you you mightnot be surprised to learn that
it's 1 Timothy chapter 3 orTitus chapter 1.
(01:04):
Those are the main scripturesthat deal with elders.
And by the way, um don't turnoff this podcast quite yet.
I mean, give it at least fiveminutes, and if you want to turn
it off, then fair enough.
You know, we're not everybody'scup of tea, I get it.
But g give us at least fiveminutes.
Like, try to see this throughto the end of the episode.
And I uh this isn't just forlike a certain percentage of men
(01:26):
only.
I think there's going to bebroad appeal for everybody.
I think everyone's gonna getsomething out of this episode.
But yes, it is prefaced withthis idea of in 1 Timothy
chapter 3, um, let's see, Paulsays, it is a faithful saying,
if a man desires the position ofa bishop, he desires a good
work.
(01:46):
Where other translations, Ithink the New American Standard
says, if he aspires to theoffice of overseer, he desires a
good work.
So some of the key terms thereare aspiration and desire.
And when I think about thatidea of aspiring for something
or desiring a position, um, thattells me that becoming an elder
(02:08):
isn't something that justsimply happens one day.
You you turn 55 and now I'm oldenough, and I guess, oh, well,
I guess I guess I'm an elder.
It sounds like something thatyou like a goal that you work
towards.
You think about a kid.
What did you guys aspire to bewhen you were kids?
My aspiration was to live in ajunkyard and invent stuff.
(02:31):
Like for reels, that's what Itold my parents.
Jon (02:34):
Did you because you watched the Rescue Ranger?
Kyle (02:36):
Yeah.
Jon (02:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of did a lot of thirsty.
Nate (02:42):
Oh well, yeah, yeah.
The dog lived in a kind of ajunkyard.
A yard that was junky.
Jon (02:48):
Aspirations.
Uh, I mean, for careers andstuff, I always wanted to be
things that I found out that Iwas not able to do, like be a
police officer or military andfly planes or stuff like that.
Because my colorblindness andeyes and stuff like immediately
nixed that.
So that was kind of depressing.
Yeah, you bring up aninteresting point.
Kyle (03:09):
And then you learned it's really your superpower.
Nate (03:12):
Sure, that's a yeah, other wavelengths, the gray ones.
The gray ones.
Um, if anyone aspires to theoffice of overseer, he desires a
noble task.
Yeah, so there's not everyoneis uh gonna want to be an LR.
You know, it's a hey, do youwant to do this thing?
Doesn't say there's anythingwrong with not wanting to do
(03:33):
that thing.
Kyle (03:34):
Well, that's another question right there.
I wonder if you ask the sevenmen who serve as as shepherds,
and I'm gonna use those termsinterchangeably, by the way, if
you're listening, uh pastor,which is the same as shepherd.
So I I like the word shepherd,and that's my favorite term to
describe them because it reallyI think gets to the heart of the
job and the nature of the workmore than any other.
(03:56):
But overseer or bishop isanother term, elder.
So I'm gonna use those termsinterchangeably on this episode,
and um that that's a question.
Um, if if you're stillwondering about that, we'll we
could address that some otherway, or you could reach out and
message us.
But so just so you're clear,I'm gonna use those somewhat
interchangeably.
Nate (04:14):
So that we can wrangle about words.
Kyle (04:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I would wonder about theseven men who serve here.
If you did a poll, how many ofthem at our age, at 20, at 30,
at 40, you know, at thosedifferent stages in their life,
how many of them would have saidthat they aspired?
And the answers might vary thatat different points in their
life, maybe it wasn't on theirradar.
So I I think it's fair that noteveryone is going to say they
(04:39):
aspire, but is that just how youfeel right now?
And so there's the the massappeal for this, and I'm gonna
I'm gonna come back to this atthe end of the episode, but
here's the hook to keep you keepyou listening.
If you're if you're alreadystarting to tune out, like,
well, you know, elders, thatthat's a man thing, and I'm not
a man for the uh 5% of ouraudience that are women.
(05:01):
Um or maybe um if you're likein that percentage of men that's
that at this point in yourlife, well, it's not for me, or
something like that.
Here's the hook.
When we read through this textin just a minute, I want you to
really think some of the highpoints here that are described,
(05:22):
you might say, and I I thinkNate, you're right, it isn't
something that you must aspireto, but I would also challenge
you to think do you really wantto say maybe not the office or
or work this associate?
But what about thesequalifications?
Yeah, yeah.
Having a solid marriage, havingfaithful children, practicing
(05:44):
self-control, being highlyregarded in and outside of the
church, are those things youreally aren't interested in?
So I think this stands man,woman, young, old, whether you
feel at this moment in your lifeyou have an interest in being
an elder someday or not.
I feel like this text holds anappeal to everybody as not
(06:06):
defining some separate standardof, well, if you want to be an
elder, you can hold yourself toa higher standard, and here's
what it is in 1 Timothy 3.
I think this is saying, here'shere's a man that has practiced
his faith, and here's what thatlooks like being above reproach.
And I think we all shouldaspire to that.
Whether, whether being an uh anelder, serving it as an elder
(06:30):
in the church comes to fruitionor not.
Nate (06:32):
Yeah, it seems like a lot of the characteristics, uh,
above reproach, husband of onewife, sober-minded,
self-controlled, respectable,hospitable, able to teach, all
of those characteristics, it'salmost like an elder is just um
further along in his game, so tospeak.
Um practiced.
Yeah, well, well practiced inthose things.
Jon (06:53):
And and um But there are some that are you will based
upon where you find yourself inlife further down the line, that
will just disqualify you too.
So when you were talking andleading into this one, my first
thought is like, well, how manywhat's the data?
You know me, empirical data.
Well, what what's the data?
How many would actually bequalified?
(07:14):
Like statistically on thewhole, how many would actually
be qualified for it?
20%.
It's closer to like five.
Oh.
Like, like if you're being verylenient, six percent like
because of just the amount ofage, the age brackets, the
amount of men, the the just justjust those franklines.
(07:35):
But here's the thing is allyoung men at the age of 12 to 7,
18, 100 because they haven'tlived a life yet, like they
haven't started off in thatmode.
And so statistically, theyounger men have you might have
the qualifications and or themeant mental aptitude, the
(07:58):
desire to aspire to that.
And so I do think it's kind ofone of these, it's an
interesting thing.
Once you've started off in yourlife, you you know whether
you've aspired to it earlyenough.
I think this is a cause forunderstanding this aspiration
and the desire to train menearly to focus and look at being
(08:18):
maybe qualified or serving aselders in the future because
more they're more qualified whenthey're younger for that future
than they are later down theline.
Does that make sense?
Kyle (08:32):
Well, that's kind of the point I'm trying to make with
this episode is that the idea,the language here of desire and
aspiration, that implies there'ssome working towards it as if
it were a goal.
It's not a passive achievementuh or or something that just
happens when you turn a certainage.
Right.
It's a good idea.
It is the result of it.
It is the result of dedicatedeffort and focused direction in
(08:55):
your life.
So I think there is somemovement towards that objective
that that needs to take placethroughout your life, whether
whether you think that isrealistic or not about you in
the future, I still think it'sthe standard we should all
aspire to.
Jon (09:11):
Does that seem crazy though?
Did you have a question aboutthat?
Like when they're young, likeJames right now, he might aspire
to become an elder one day.
And there's really no reasonwhy you think he couldn't.
Well, if he aspires it rightnow.
Nate (09:24):
What you're saying is he hasn't disqualified himself.
Jon (09:26):
He hasn't disqualified himself.
He hasn't lived a life thatmight disqualify him.
He has all the opportunity.
If you think about it as intomaybe opportunity too, he has
100% of the opportunity at thatpoint.
But further down the line,people in their 40s to 70s, you
know, just the long stretch, bythat point in time in their
life, you may the narrowing oftheir qualification will be just
(09:47):
a small more significant.
Yeah.
And so you have more controlover that the younger you do.
Why is this a good conversationto have?
Because we don't thinkpreemptively.
We we don't generally think weplan ahead for this kind of
thing.
We may encourage them to wantto do that someday, but even
deacons sometimes, so we don'thave a conversation of like
(10:08):
which deacons might aspire tobecome elders one day, and or
which young men that are 20 andmight do that one day.
And I don't know that I've hada lot of conversations about
that with older people in mylife.
Hey, do you would you like tobe an elder one day?
What do you think you're gonnahave to do in the life you're
gonna have to live to bequalified?
And or to be a good leader, agood shepherd for that, or to
(10:31):
desire the work and do it well.
What do you think you mighthave to do?
And I think that it's a goodconversation to have because
it's you have to do it withintent.
Kyle (10:40):
You want to raise your son.
Well, your sons, you have twosons.
We talk about James, he getspicked on a lot in this podcast
because he's he's older of age.
Yeah, yeah.
So he's fair game.
Um, but you you want to raiseyour sons as if they would be
elders someday, though you'renot going to make that choice
for them, and it's up to acongregation.
That's that's again anotherbigger question that we probably
(11:03):
won't cover today is it's it'slet's see, how do I word this?
It's a objective standard, butwhether someone is qualified is
a subjective conclusion based onthe church's opinion.
Jon (11:15):
And and just because you have the desire to and you've
met in your mind and anassessment, met qualifications
for that, does that doesn't meanthat we you you might have
plenty of elders in thecongregation, but that doesn't
mean that you couldn't move andbe an elder somewhere else
someday.
Like there's there's all theseother factors to it where where
you live, the congregation, um,whether you have enough men to
(11:38):
be that.
Yeah.
Kyle (11:39):
Or going to the first Corinthians 12 uh metaphor of
the body, there are lots ofmembers, one body.
Being an elder just might notbe in the cards for you.
I still think it's what youaspire to.
Yeah.
And whether it plays out thatway or not, you find your role
in the body, you serve yourfunction.
And if aspiring to the officeof elder is how you direct your
(12:01):
steps, and if that doesn't workout, then at least you've
directed your steps in a in avery positive direction and
you've been equipping yourself,you can still be useful in so
many other capacities.
So, like with your son James, aqualification that you read,
Nate, was hospitable.
How can you prepare him to behospitable?
He doesn't own a home rightnow, but how can you maybe set
(12:22):
him on the path of being ahospitable person when he grows
up?
Can you, are there things youcan do now towards that end?
When guests come over to yourhouse, it's the whole family.
We have guests.
It's not just mom and I.
That could be something likewith my girls, we make them talk
to three people at church andnot the same three people every
(12:42):
time, and not three people thatthey know.
Preferably when we havevisitors, you're gonna go up and
talk to them, you're gonnaintroduce yourself, you're gonna
ask them their name, and you'regonna ask them one or two more
questions, and then you can goplay with your friends because
I'm trying to teach them to behospitable.
That this church, we haveguests, and I want you to make
them feel welcome.
I'm trying to get them to buyin now so that when they're
(13:05):
older, they are inclined to behospitable.
When we have guests at thehome, I want them to come out of
their room and say hello whenguests enter.
I want them to get accustomedto being hospitable now.
So those are ways where asparents, we can think even with
young children, whether thishappens or not, it's not my
(13:26):
choice.
But I want to direct them downa path where it doesn't preclude
serving in that way.
Jon (13:33):
I like this conversation because I feel like we always
have, we don't have theseconversations uh about goal
planning and and the intent ofthe future, especially when we
think about kids or youngerpeople in general.
But even then, I think we'regonna talk about ourselves is
you know, we're not super oldyet.
Um, and different aspirations,you know, we all should have.
Kyle (13:55):
I've referenced 1 Timothy chapter 3 because I like the
introduction uh where it talksabout uh aspiring to the office
of overseer.
But I want to jump over toTitus.
Let me read this so that we atleast um as as our audience has
a basis for what we'rediscussing.
Uh Titus chapter 1, beginningin verse 5, Paul says, For this
reason I left you in Crete thatyou should set in order the
(14:16):
things that are lacking andappoint elders in every city as
I commanded you.
If a man is blameless, thehusband of one wife, having
faithful children, not accusedof dissipation or
insubordination, for a bishopmust be blameless as a steward
of God, not self-willed, notquick-tempered, not given to
wine, not violent, not greedyfor money, but hospitable, a
(14:38):
lover of what is good,sober-minded, just, holy,
self-controlled, holding fastthe faithful word as he has been
taught, that he may be able touh, by sound doctrine, both to
exhort and convict those whocontradict.
And if we keep reading, hesays, For there are many
insubordinate, both idle talkersand deceivers, especially those
of the circumcision, whosemouths must be stopped.
(15:00):
So Paul emphasizes, at leastthere in Crete, there were
problems with these falseteachers.
And he says, You need toappoint elders, shepherds who
protect the flock.
They must, and so I likeTitus's description because he
emphasized, gives a little moreemphasis to uh capability with
handling the word of God andbeing able to defend the truth
(15:22):
because there are false teachersthat someone needs to stand up
to them, someone needs to beable to speak with soundness and
be reasonable and protect theflock from from these uh
predators that might come in.
So that's that's the standardwe are talking about.
And I mean, just be honest withyourself as you read through
that.
(15:42):
Take the aspiration for theoffice of elder out of this
conversation and just thinkabout that description of a
follower of Christ.
Can you honestly say, I don'treally need to.
I mean, I get it.
You you don't have to bemarried.
All right, that's that's anobvious exception here.
You can choose not to bemarried, but if you're going to
(16:05):
be married, I don't really wantto be as the the literal Greek
text says, a one of one man orof one woman a man.
I don't really want to be aone-woman man.
Or I don't really want a greatmarriage.
You don't have to havechildren.
But if you do, do you reallywant to settle for, well, I'll
(16:25):
raise children, but they'll beinsubordinate.
Nate (16:27):
Yeah, I mean these are troublemakers.
These are great qualities tofor any Christian to aspire to,
right?
Like we we should we shouldwant to be uh above reproach.
Kyle (16:39):
Just like I have a picture of Chris Hemsworth on my mirror
that I look at every morning iswhat I aspire to be physically.
I do have a picture of him.
I don't think he really does.
This scripture should be rightnext to Chris Hemsworth on my
mirroring answer.
Spiritually, uh I think searchyour heart.
I think you know the answer.
(17:00):
This text should be right nextto that.
Is like I look at this everymorning is whether I serve as an
elder down the road or not,this is who I want to be.
I want a great marriage.
And if I'm settling for less, Ineed to fix that.
I want to be a great father ormother.
And if I'm settling for less,or if I'm not giving my kids the
(17:20):
attention they need from me, Ineed to address that.
I want to be capable with thescriptures.
I want to be able to talk aboutthe gospel and salvation with
people, even those that aremaybe misguided or challenging
me.
I want to be able to have thoseback and forth conversations.
I want to know the scripturewell enough.
I want to have a goodreputation in the workplace.
(17:41):
I want to have self-control.
Like we should just look atthis list and forget the part
about office of overseer.
We should just aspire to this.
And then appointing elders issimply acknowledging the cream
always rises to the top.
There are there are people thatstand out, and it's not that an
elder has a different or higherset of standards.
(18:02):
That's that's like theoverarching point I want to make
in this episode.
But also, as pertains to us,what we talked about our
children.
We could have a mindset forwhen they're young.
What can we do as parents tomaybe set them down a path that
that maybe leads to thissomeday?
Nate (18:25):
Well, I liked your um idea just about looking to the
future, like having goals andbeing intentional with with
those goals.
And I think if if we look atthis list as, well, these are
goals we should aspire to andthen lead by example and talk
about them with our ourchildren.
(18:46):
You know, I I'm looking at thisGod's steward, okay, so be a
servant.
Above reproach.
You know, we want to do theright thing in as many
situations as we can, in everysituation.
Uh-uh.
Not arrogant, you know, humble.
Like these are things that weshould be teaching our uh
teaching our children, uhaspiring to individually, not
just leading by example, butalso sharing, you know.
(19:08):
We did this because that'sshowing humility.
Humility is uh putting othersbefore before myself and serving
them.
And I think that if we uh leadby example, show them and teach
them, then they will naturallyuh do those things because
that's how they were raised.
But I also think that you knowwe we can teach these things,
(19:31):
but if we do not lead byexample, then then it's much
less likely that the peoplewe're teaching our kids or
whoever else it is are going tolatch on because they're gonna
see the what do they call thatdissonance.
Yeah.
They're gonna see thedifference between what we say
and who we are, and who we areis gonna speak louder.
Kyle (19:52):
Well, let's sort of talk through different phases of life
here.
So as children, we don't alwaysget control of our environment.
So maybe more as parents, wewant to be mindful of training
our children.
You know, my dad would bring mealong when someone was moving
from one house to another acrosstown, and I wasn't much help.
But it was a good thing for meto be there and see that we
(20:13):
serve others.
Or when I was house sitting asa teenager and I accidentally
damaged the drywall, notdrastically, but enough that my
dad said, you need to go talk tohim, like you need to be
accountable.
He was teaching me that idea ofbeing above reproach means you
don't hide your mistakes, youown them.
So I was trained from a youngage, and that's what I want to
do as a father.
But then as I became a teenagerand into my early 20s, it
(20:37):
started to be Kyle had his handon uh the rudder or the steering
wheel, and I started to makedecisions that guided the ship
and the path I was on.
So for you guys, when you werein your 20s, you know, 18
through through uh throughthroughout your 20s, what are
some things that you did thathave helped you be who you are?
(20:59):
What are some things maybeadvice you would say, well, I
could have done this better, andmaybe you guys can learn from
this.
Um I'll just say, first of all,the biggest thing in your 20s
is if you're if you're thinkingyou're you're you're someone
that uh uh is going to bemarried, uh don't enter into
that lightly.
Think long and hard about whoyou're gonna marry.
(21:21):
And this is something thatwhether it's a man or woman, and
you're talking about whichwhich man will I marry, which
woman will I marry, you need tothink about the future and what
does that future look like, andis it one that honors God?
You know, in 2 Corinthians umchapter 6, Paul talks about do
not be unequally yoked withunbelievers.
Specifically, he's not talkingabout marriage in that text, but
(21:43):
what better illustration ofbeing yoked to someone is more
applicable or direct thanmarriage?
Yeah.
So I I I would come short ofsaying that's a prohibition or
that if you marry an unbeliever,it's invalidated in the eyes of
God.
No.
But I think the Bible does tellyou don't do that.
Yeah.
Nate (22:01):
It's not it's not a good choice.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, you asked about umour twenties, and my first
thought was we probably don'twant to talk about my twenties.
Um did a lot of things Iprobably sh well, I know I
shouldn't have done.
But I can say this.
One um one thing that I I thinkum I had some wisdom about was
(22:22):
not marrying uh someone who uhwe differed significantly on
matters of faith.
I dated a few girls um and wedid not see eye to eye on
matters of faith.
Many other things in our livesmatched up, but that didn't.
And I just knew in my heart ofhearts um that that's a huge
(22:47):
mistake if I if I enter into thecommitment of marriage with
someone who I do not share thedeepest values with.
Um and so I I waited until Ifound someone who we held the
same values when it came to ourfaith.
And that has been probably oneof the biggest blessings in my
adult life.
So while I made a lot ofmistakes in my 20s, that's
(23:09):
that's one I don't think that Idid.
Kyle (23:11):
But I I I think there's something powerful about that
too, is that that that probablycharacterizes a good percentage
of our audience too.
Is um I made mistakes.
I think we all make mistakes.
I I think I look at my 20s alittle differently than yours.
My mistakes were more subtle.
It doesn't mean I needed anyless grace from Jesus than you.
And that was my struggle waswas realizing I was just as lost
(23:32):
as the next guy.
But even though I was born andraised in the church, I always
struggled to feel lost.
Nate (23:37):
Yeah.
Kyle (23:38):
But I understand that better now.
But I think a lot of ouraudience would would resonate
with that idea.
Nate (23:43):
And I've I've heard people say, well, I could never be an
elder because I've done too manystupid things, I made too many
mistakes, and but then you look,you know, it's um at least for
me, I look back at a lot of mymistakes, and I I um I do think
like it has given me a really umpersonal understanding of
grace.
And when you go through somereally difficult situations,
(24:05):
whether it's your own fault ornot, maybe it is the mistakes
that you make.
If you come at it with theright attitude, you learn some
really valuable stuff, and itreally helps you empathize with
people who maybe made a reallypoor choice.
Um and they're in a verydifficult situation.
But because, you know, maybeyou've been there, um, you have
(24:25):
some additional wisdom throughexperience that that someone who
hasn't experienced that, theyjust don't have the same kind of
uh maybe, maybe connectionbecause they haven't been there.
Kyle (24:36):
I think that's what makes Paul's testimony so powerful is
just a contrast of who he wasand the 180-degree change that
Christ made in his life.
So when someone tells me Idon't think I could ever be uh
an elder because of all mymistakes, I say, well, I don't
think you understand just howbig and how powerful and how
(24:56):
amazing and beautiful God'sgrace is.
Nate (24:59):
Well, I mean, you look at like Peter, I mean, I kind of
see him as like a redneckfisherman, like uh I don't I
don't there are probably peoplewho know a lot more about him
than I do.
But what mistake in his lifedid he not make, right?
He was really impetuous.
I I think he you know thoughtwith his emotions before his
brain a lot of the time.
And repeatedly Yeah, yeah.
I mean, uh we don't knoweverything there is to know
(25:21):
about his life, but I would whatmistake did he not make?
I he was uh he was not aperfect man.
Um, and yet he became an elder.
Jon (25:29):
And and I wonder it's like asked the question of why.
Why did Jesus want him?
Sure.
And I think it's because you doneed to get down to the core
fact behind all this and say heneeds him.
And he needed, he needs men.
Yeah.
He needs us, he needs men andpeople to step up and uh bring
(25:50):
people to Christ and to shepherdthose who you know on their
way.
And so he needs men.
It's yeah, and I think thatthat's one of those core things
you need to think about in theback of your head is that um
this is something that we needto have.
And some I mean at some pointpeople need to identify if
they're the people to step up.
Kyle (26:09):
This is really important because I don't I don't want
people to have their takeawayfrom this episode be, well, if I
haven't been working on thissince day one, then what's the
point now?
That that that's not thetakeaway.
Is I'm just trying to say is asearly as we can, this is a good
goal, a good objective toaspire towards.
But if you haven't, if you'regetting a later start, that
(26:30):
doesn't stop you either fromfrom from getting on this path
and making this your goal andaspiration.
And so don't don't feel like ifI botched it in my 20s or my
30s, it's too late for me now.
That's not the point.
Nate (26:42):
So that brings to mind um the passage in Romans 8, uh
where I'm just gonna bring it upso that uh so that I don't
butcher it.
But um yeah, if you're thinkinglike, well, my mistakes um
preclude me from you knowbecoming an elder or you know,
I'm just a little bit late tothe game and I've done too many
things in life.
Kyle (27:02):
Neither height nor depth nor um that's not the one it's
28.
Nate (27:08):
Uh for those who love God, all things work together for
good.
For those who are calledaccording to his purpose.
And I think about that.
Like, for those who love God,all things work together for
good?
Wait a second.
I look back at my life and Igo, man, I made some horrible
mistakes there.
That was terrible.
But then I read this verse andI thought about, okay, how on
(27:29):
earth can that be a good thing?
And then the thought came tome, well, there will be someone
else who goes through somethinglike that, who needs the wisdom
that you now have from goingthrough that thing.
And uh I can look back time andtime again, uh, young men who
have gone through and mademistakes that I made when I was
(27:51):
their age, uh, and I can say,you are not alone.
And that was one of the biggestthings when I was in my early
20s that was so difficult is Ifelt like I was this horrible
sinner, and so nobody else inthe church had ever made
mistakes like this.
And so how could I go and admitto them, you know, the the
horrible things that I had done?
(28:11):
God can take those things,those mistakes that we've made,
and if we love him and if we'recalled according to his purpose,
he'll turn them into somethinggood.
And so don't let that stop youfrom, you know, wanting to be an
elder.
Jon (28:23):
So you're talking about past grandpa, dad, both elders.
I had as a 20-year-oldaspirations and desires in that
direction.
I did not expect to, you know,have a six, seven-year, I just
did that.
Six, seven years.
It was between six, seven.
Uh it was between six and sevenyears uh of marriage fail and
(28:45):
to get divorced.
And I felt like during thattime, I I felt like, you know,
I'm losing a lot in life.
Am I also losing that abilityto serve the Lord in in certain
ways?
And if I'm ever qualified insome day, I don't think that
changes my desire to bringothers to Christ and to be
someone to help, you know, leadmy family and lead lead others.
(29:07):
But I do think that I know whatit's like, as we're talking
about, to be in positions whereyou know you just don't know
what the future is going to looklike.
Kyle (29:16):
For those that might be listening in that late teen,
early 20s demographic, um, whichI'd like to think we're we're
hip and in in it enough where wewe attract some of that crowd,
maybe.
Nate (29:28):
So if that's you 67% think that.
Kyle (29:31):
Yeah.
I would just say this is a timeto be present with the church,
um, and and invest in your faithby reading and studying, trying
to learn and understand.
Uh, and we'll talk about in the30s.
Maybe that's the time, 30s and40s is like, let's let's dip our
toes in the water of teaching alittle bit.
But in your twenties, learn andgrow.
Sit at the feet of of thosewise teachers, learn from them,
(29:54):
ask lots of questions, and tryto be involved with uh and w
with anything going on.
On at church or with people atchurch, try to be involved, try
to be present, and and justthink long and hard and pray all
day long and all night longabout who it is you're gonna
marry and think very carefullyabout that decision.
So that that's just good adviceif you not to say that that
(30:18):
that it's if you mess up once,then you're off track, and
that's that.
But that that would I uh that'swhat I would say would be some
good advice for those in their20s that that want to have
future success spiritually, ismaybe focus on those goals.
We get into the 30s and and and40s, and that's a little more
where we are.
John's in his early 40s, I ammonths, weeks away from entering
(30:42):
into the 40s.
So, and we're we're all ourfamilies are all roughly
equivalent with multiplechildren right around the same
age.
John and I have more kids thanyou do, but keep going.
Jon (30:53):
Yeah, yeah.
No one's counting except for weare.
It's quality over quantity.
I mean, thank you very much.
Nate (31:00):
Low blow.
Kyle (31:01):
What we hit perfection, we hit perfection at two kids.
It's taking you guys threetries.
Jon (31:06):
So but yes, we're all in that kind of mode where uh we
have young kids.
Um, yeah, mine's a littleolder, and and I I'm enjoying
that.
I mean, you're kind of I'm kindof really enjoying having.
Is that crazy?
And does I don't think I'veever heard of anyone saying
they're enjoying having a13-year-old.
I don't know that that's thingspeople say, but I'm enjoying
(31:29):
seeing someone grow and uh askquestions and explore the world
and learn.
Kyle (31:35):
What I look forward to in my 40s, I think, I think 30s and
40s kind of run together withwith some of these ideas.
Um I think it's important notto get caught up in in career.
We want to be financiallymindful of the future, but we
just want to make sure thatdoesn't become at the expense of
our kids.
Nate (31:51):
Not to the neglect of our family.
Kyle (31:53):
Yeah.
And and so just being mindfulof uh what's that what's that
country song about uh you mightthink it was wasted time, but
you reflect on it, it was timewell wasted when when you took a
day off from work to go fishingwith your son or things like
that.
Like just be mindful ofinvesting in your children and
and well, I can I ask you aquestion?
Nate (32:16):
No, no, no, keep going, Kyle.
Kyle (32:18):
Uh didn't you just ask him the question?
Jon (32:19):
Can I ask you a question?
But it I as it kind of likegets into here is is Nate, when
you were uh when you became adeacon, yeah, did you weigh this
idea of like do I have the timeto to be a deacon?
Yeah do I, you know, with myfamily and my my career
aspirations and things likethat, did you sit there and kind
of weigh that?
Uh yeah.
(32:41):
Was it a hard deliberation orwas it an easy deliberation?
Nate (32:45):
But John, I think it was I think it was I think it was
difficult.
I think where it became moredifficult um uh a year or two
after I became a deacon and umyou know, times got hard and I
had to get a second job.
That's when it became moredifficult.
It's like, oh, um I I reallyhave to be uhware of making time
(33:08):
to do the work of a deacon.
Jon (33:09):
Yeah.
But I I bring that up becauseI'm I I think that that's a a
real concern people think about,even the idea of becoming an
elder is like I'm gonna waituntil I'm done with my career,
or I'm gonna wait until youknow, like a certain milestone
in life, and I'm gonna kind ofmaybe if that's something I'll
do then, but you know, I uhmaybe I don't have time to do
that.
And I think that people kind ofweigh that idea of the time
(33:33):
commitment to be a deacon or anelder or you know, other things.
Um and I I don't know that thatshould I I think that's a
normal factor, a normal, normalthing to think about, but I do
um hope that that doesn't swaypeople to plan for it still,
(33:54):
because I mean I don't it's likewhen you have kids.
Who who sat there and said, Ihave just amount of money to
have my three kids?
No one does that.
You you have your kids and youfeel like you figure out how to
adapt to it.
And I don't think that becomingyou know a leader or or doing
different things is somethingyou go into it uh foolheartedly
and adapt to.
But I do think that there'sprobably not going to be a
(34:15):
perfect time in your life whereyou're gonna have all the time
in the world and and plenty oftime and and dedication to just
serve.
And so I do think it'ssomething that is do you know
what I mean?
Like I don't I worry thatpeople will kind of put off the
idea of I just maybe later inlife I'll do things because
right now I don't need to.
Kyle (34:34):
I've known plenty of good men that had the talent, had the
ability, had the heart uh andthe temperament for serving as a
as a deacon or as an elder, uh,but it's that uh that attitude
of of some more convenient time.
Nothing.
Jon (34:50):
And I don't think it's ever gonna happen.
Kyle (34:52):
And I feel like I I feel like this is the stage in your
life when when your career,you're kind of at that fork in
the road with career and uhplanning for retirement, and now
you're providing for growingkids.
And uh now's the time whenyou're tempted to pour all your
efforts and energies into noblecauses, but to be pulled away
(35:14):
from what is of eternalimportance.
Jon (35:17):
Am I being naive and thinking that that's not that
shouldn't be as big of a factoras we make it sometimes?
Well, and I think we shouldn'tshy away from I mean, I you
don't want if someone reallycan't commit the time at all to
do it, and you don't wantsomeone who's who's not able to.
I get that.
But I also think that if it's agoal, you have to plan around
(35:40):
and make time to do the thingsthat are worthwhile doing.
And I let's say I don't want tobe naive and and just saying
I'm gonna bub a blanketstatement for everyone else.
Make the time, it's good to do,do it.
Um, because yeah, I mean, one,you have to desire the work, but
two, I don't know.
I just I don't know.
Well, I think that's anunhealthy idea.
Kyle (35:59):
I think that's an unhealthy idea.
Again, with the idea that uhthe qualifications for elders,
it's not a separate set of of ora higher standard.
So if I'm too busy to be anelder, what you're really just
saying is I'm too busy to Idon't I'm not an elder, so I
don't have to spend as much timeas they do on church stuff.
Well, take the title away andyou're spreading God's word and
(36:21):
mentoring people.
That's my point is it is doelders have I mean some higher
requirement of of timecommitment on on doing things in
the Lord's kingdom or for God'sglory?
And and so what when you sayI'm too busy to serve as a
deacon or too busy to serve asan elder, it's well, what else
(36:42):
are you too busy not to do?
Jon (36:44):
I think the best qualified elders are people who are
already doing that.
And people who are alreadydoing the work of elders, who
are out there who are justliving their life, trying to get
people to Christ and being thebest example that they can.
And that mentoring people alongthe way.
Kyle (36:58):
At this point in my life, it's a little different because
I'm a preacher and it's my jobto teach Bible classes, but I
think that at this age, uh, Ilove what uh Phil Robertson said
in our gospel meeting a coupleweeks ago.
You can listen to it uh on ourYouTube channel for the Clovis
Church of Christ.
Uh he talks about that thatthere's really no excuse by the
time you get to uh 50.
You should be a Bible scholarand you should see yourself that
(37:21):
way.
That you've committed time to,and it doesn't mean you have to
get a master's degree inbiblical studies, but you should
be someone that knows thescriptures.
If you commit your time to itand work towards that, that's
something you we should allaspire to do.
And it's very reasonable, and Ithink it's it's honestly kind
of uh embarrassing if if you'vebeen a Christian for 30 years.
(37:42):
So I I guess my encouragementis in your 20s, 30s, and and
into your 40s, is when you'represented with opportunities to
step up and do something or takeleadership if it's not the
office of deacon or elder, butif you're presented with an
opportunity to take a leadershiprole, whether it's teaching a
class or organizing some sort ofservice and taking care of
(38:05):
others, don't walk away from it.
Oh, sure.
Don't turn your back on thatopportunity, embrace it.
And I I this is something Itake to heart.
Uh, in some of our elders'meetings, um, we've had some
conversations about potentiallybringing in uh a young preacher
like I did 20 years ago at thisvery church to train, to do a
(38:27):
one-year training program.
And I keep thinking, Scott, Iknow he just sort of retired,
but but he'll be the one to leadthat.
I I'm I don't have enoughexperience.
And I just had this moment ofwell, I've been doing this for
20 years, and I don't haveenough experience to share and
(38:47):
help someone.
What have I been doing the last20 years?
Like if if that's how I feelpart of it is I just maybe I'm
trying to feel like I should behumble about this, or but no, I
think this is an opportunity,and and just to be clear,
nothing has been determinedabout that.
That's all very tentative talkabout bringing in a training
preacher, so just uh don't runwith that too far.
(39:08):
Uh but this is more about myself-reflection, and I it's it's
an opportunity I shouldembrace, not not feel scared of,
and and try to learn from it asproving grounds.
Um by the way, things likevisiting, you know, elders.
If you're a shepherd, you knowthe sheep in the flock.
Shepherds, our shepherds hereat this church are very good
(39:31):
about visiting folks that are inthe hospital or that can't get
out of the home or that arestruggling spiritually.
And if you have a desire to dothat, but it seems intimidating,
just call up one of theshepherds and say, Can I go
visit some folks with you?
I do that.
Yeah.
You know, and I'm the preacherhere, and I still do that.
I still call up.
Uh, there's a couple elders Ido that somewhat regularly with.
(39:51):
I call them up and say, Let'sgo visit a few folks today.
And it just makes me feelbetter knowing I don't have to
carry a conversation.
Um, there's someone elsetalking and makes it easier.
And so there's ways to do thatand get yourself involved,
putting some of what youhopefully have been learning in
your your teens and 20s, startputting it into practice.
(40:12):
Um start small.
Be involved with uh VBS or orco-teaching a Bible class for a
semester.
Start uh teach teach a homeBible study group devotional for
one night.
That's a one-night commitment.
Um if you've never done aninvitation, maybe sign up to do
that.
Find some ways where you canstart to apply what you've
(40:35):
learned in the scriptures.
You might think, I'm not readyto teach.
Well, have you been a Christianfor 20 years at this point in
your life?
And you can't teach a10-year-old Bible basics?
You can.
You're just doubting yourself.
Jon (40:47):
So, Kyle, what is it to aspire to the uh office of an
overseer?
Kyle (40:53):
Well, the idea of aspire, let's see.
Um to stretch oneself or toreach out after for something.
Uh Vine says it is signifyingthe mental effort of stretching
oneself oneself out for a thingor longing after it.
Nate (41:10):
So that's interesting.
You the word aspire is usedbecause in the word aspire is
the word spire, and aspire isthe top, right?
The pinnacle of a building or aprecipice.
We should be aiming.
Aiming high.
Aiming high, right?
And and there are otherpassages that tell us to do
that, and not necessarily in thecontext of becoming an elder,
but like Ephesians 4, I think itis, it talks about we should
(41:32):
aim to be like Jesus, right?
That was what we should beaiming at.
Is that not an aspiration likeshooting high?
Yeah, we should shoot high.
Absolutely.
And and if you have that goal,uh the younger you are, the the
more likely you are to, youknow, really dig into that.
Jon (41:50):
If you're 80, 90 years old at the end of your life and you
had aspired to be an elder or ashepherd, and you lived the life
that you could, but you maybehave never actually served as an
elder.
I don't think anyone's going tolook back on a life that's
wasted.
I mean, so at the end of theday, like you're you're not, you
(42:11):
know, as we should use ourlives to his fullest extent and
aspire a lot higher than that.
Kyle (42:18):
And I would also add that at this point in your lives, as
we're getting into our 40s now,um people are looking up to us.
Uh we're we're none of us areelders.
You gotta be at least 50 to bean elder.
Is that no, no, not kidding?
Um, but none of us are eldersyet, but there are people that
are looking up to us, and Ithink it's important to even at
(42:39):
this point include them in someof the things we do.
Nate (42:43):
You bring up a good uh good um thought there, Kyle.
And I think that it's importantthat uh we do that as a as a
church.
I'm not an elder, I'm not thewisest guy on the planet at all.
Um, but I think that's a reallysmart thing to do is to look to
the future.
And what do they call that inbusiness?
Legacy planning something?
Looking to the future, who aregonna be who's the next
(43:03):
generation of elders?
You know, and then maybebeneath that, who's the next
generation of deacons?
And who are the folks who areuh have a predisposition towards
maybe teaching or leading?
Kyle (43:15):
So thoughtfully ask some people to get involved in
something in something you'reworking on at this phase of your
life.
Um thoughtfully choose somepeople and ask them to maybe how
can they get involved, how canthey participate, how can they
help?
Because that was some of themost formative experiences I had
were when I was training, I wasgiven a list of names and
(43:38):
addresses as a 20-year-old or21-year-old.
You're gonna go visit thesecomplete strangers, and that's
your job for today, Kyle.
It was awkward, but I waspushed into it and I I benefited
greatly.
Or uh a little bit later on ina different church, we didn't
have elders, but one of the menthat I looked up to, who became
(43:58):
an elder of that church, therewas a situation where we'll call
him a patriarch of the church,had some had some issues.
It's a Matthew 18 situation.
Go and um take two or threewitnesses.
And this older gentleman that Ilooked up to said, Kyle, I want
you to come with me on this.
It's gonna be good for you.
It's not gonna be pleasant,it's not gonna be fun to go have
(44:20):
this conversation with thiswith this elderly member.
Um, and it was not a pleasantthing, but it was very formative
for me that he he brought me inon something that needed to
happen.
And and uh got me out of mycomfort zone to do so.
I I've tried to be mindful ofhow can I bring some people in
and maybe thoughtfully push themout of their comfort zone, but
(44:44):
without overwhelming them.
Nate (44:46):
Well, isn't that just discipleship?
Kyle (44:48):
Yeah.
Nate (44:49):
I mean, right?
Everybody's at maybe adifferent level, you know.
Uh it's discipleship, right?
It and that takes um people toto push us out of our comfort
zone sometimes, and and it takespeople to care, right?
It says go therefore and makedisciples.
Well, that means there's adiscipler and a disciplee.
Kyle (45:06):
As I look ahead to you know, into my 40s and 50s, as I
look ahead to the comingdecades, my children will be
teenagers and going on tocollege and moving out.
That's what's ahead for me.
Yeah.
Um, I've been married for 20years.
So I I've I'm pretty far downthe road, but I've still got a
lot of major obstacles ahead ofme.
(45:26):
I look ahead and think, there'snever a time to just hit cruise
control in life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh I mean, just think theexample that sticks out to me is
King David.
When you go to 2 Samuel chapter11, and you read those first 10
chapters of the book, um he heit took him a while to secure
the throne, and then he had todeal with some of Saul's sons
(45:52):
who who most of the tribes stillwere faithful to him.
He ruled over Judah only, butthen he unified the kingdom and
reigned over all Israel.
And then there's someconquests, like in chapter 8,
and he further expanded theboundaries and conquered enemies
and found peace, and herelocated the ark back to its
proper home.
Um, he did a lot of things andaccomplished a lot, and I think
(46:16):
he's at that midway point inlife, and then Bathsheba
happens.
And it it things sort of startto head downhill slowly for him
after that.
And so I just that story alwayssticks out to me as like I look
at all David accomplished atthat point in his life, and I'm
like, that's sort of how I feelright now.
(46:36):
I've I've got kids that aregetting into the teenage years
almost, and I'm about 40, I'vebeen preaching for 20 years, I
feel like I've got someexperience and some knowledge,
I've been married for 20 years.
I've actually like done threeor four different uh marriage,
pre-marriage counselings.
Like I feel like I'm startingto be, I'm starting to be that
guy, that that older guy thatpeople look up to.
(46:58):
Well, it's not time to coast.
Oh, yeah.
Like that that's the fear Ihave, and something that I need
to keep uh keep present, is justdon't, don't, don't start
coasting.
Well, do you guys have anyother final thoughts about what
we've talked about or what whatyour thoughts are about looking
ahead, what what's coming downthe road for you guys, and and
what it means to aspire to be uhan overseer.
(47:21):
But also I think the biggerpoint is just this is a clear
objective.
First Timothy chapter three,Titus chapter one, those those
paragraphs about the elder uhand the deacon, those are just
descriptions of what we shouldall want to be as Christians.
Jon (47:37):
Let me say that I aspire to be someone that my son looks up
to.
I aspire to be someone that canhelp others.
Um, I aspire to beknowledgeable.
I want to be at a point whereI'm at a place that I can help
others because I've managed myown my own faith, my own
understanding, learning.
(47:58):
But I have sometimes a problemwith a presumptuous perspective
of aspiring to be an elder, asif others would think I'm
qualified.
And and so sometimes I thinkthat even though you you sit
there and you think, hey, well,is this something you want to
do?
One, I I do want to self-checkthat you're wanting to do
something for the right reason.
(48:18):
You know, uh I want to get inthere and and and you know, I
have all the answer.
You know, I don't want to havethat kind of mentality.
But two, I do.
Kyle (48:25):
Remember what Jesus said, leadership is serving.
Jon (48:29):
So you should definitely, you know, be humbled in that
perspective.
But I just I don't know if youguys have any better insight
this or have ever felt the sameway, but I don't think I've ever
just walked out there and saidto someone, yeah, I hope it's be
an elder one day.
Well, we need to have- Eventhough I might have that feeling
inside and have at one point intime thought that it feels kind
(48:51):
of presumptuous, or I don'tknow, it feels weird to be in
that position to make thatstatement as if because I feel
like it's really up to the flockto decide if you are to want to
want to protect the flock, towant to glorify God through
keeping souls saved and helpingthem get to heaven.
Kyle (49:11):
What greater life could you aspire to?
Now, I think we all need theattitude of King David, though.
So I'm gonna come back to Davidin a positive sense.
He aspired to build the templefor God, he wanted to build a
house for God, and God's answerwas, no, not you.
Your hands have shed muchblood.
So he said, Okay, I'm not gonnabuild it.
(49:32):
I will gather supplies, I willput designs together, I will do
everything I can to makeSolomon's job easier for him.
And I think that's the attitudewe all need to have is it's not
so much that I want a title ora recognition, if that never
happens, that's fine.
I will find the next, the nextbest way to be useful in this
(49:55):
body and and serve in whateverrole or function I'm in to the
glory of God.
And so that's a lesson I thinkwe can learn from King David and
when when he aspired to buildthe house for God, but was told
no, just wasn't for him.
Nate (50:10):
Yeah, sometimes you have something that you want to do
and you find out you can'tdoesn't mean you quit.
It means you do what you can doin that situation, or you find
a way, you know, over aroundthrough whatever to get a job
done.
But you do it.
Just do it.
Kyle, great episode, man.
Um, really appreciated uh theperspective on um aspiring to be
(50:33):
an elder, uh, regardless of whoyou are, aspiring to the
characteristics and qualities ofan elder, man, woman, uh, you
know, old, young.
This is very good.
So we appreciate that verymuch.
And if you're listening and youappreciated this uh this
conversation, this episode,like, subscribe, share with your
friends, and uh we we hope tohave you back at the next
(50:55):
episode.
Kyle (50:58):
We aspire to have 100,000 subscribers by the end of 2026.
Let's do it.
Nate (51:06):
I mean, exponentially, all we'd have to do is double our
subscribership every day.
Kyle (51:11):
Oh, is that all?
Well, I mean Well, if if yousponsor five subscribers beneath
you, that's right, then you canstart your own network.
That's right.
It's like a pyramid.
Jon (51:22):
And then and then we'll have the Michael Scott pyramid.
Kyle (51:26):
You know, they they talk about like you used to say like
the Cadillac of blank.
Like like that was like a uh apositive thing.
And you say, well, you're justa Timu blank, you're a Timu
version, you're a Timuphotographer.
Oh it's like an insult.
Can we do that like like likeTimu Christians, Timu
Christianity?
Oh you're just a cheapknockoff, cheap knockoff of the
(51:47):
real thing?
Cheap Christian.
It's a good podcast episode.
Jon (51:49):
Is there a revelation church that that aligns to?
Oh.
Timu, Timu congregation.
Yeah.
Is that Lost First Love?
No, that's not.
Kyle (52:04):
You have a name, but you are dead?
Yeah.
Jon (52:06):
Well, I guess Timu.
Or pretend literally pretend tobe real.
That would be what that wouldbe, right?
Nate (52:15):
Sometimes you have something that you want to do
and you find out you can't,doesn't mean you quit.
It means you do what you can doin that situation, or you find
a way, you know, over a roundthree or whatever, to get a job
done, but you do it.
Kyle (52:29):
Just do it.
Or you slip your opponent somepoison and just remove them from
the equation.
Iokane.
Iokane powder.
Nate (52:38):
I was thinking rice and I like rice and beans.
Like on a tortilla.
Jon (52:44):
I just want to build up over time.
You know, I'm mean to iokanepowder.
I just think that would be areally good jumble approach.
Kyle (52:53):
If I mean it says here that Titus was to appoint
elders, so I can just wave mymagic wand as the preacher.
If you want to be an elder,I'll just make it.
Just make it happen.
Make it happen.
Poof.
Poof.
For our audience uh at home,that's not how it works, just to
be clear.
Welcome to the Exorder Podcast, where aimed to stir up
love and good works throughbite-sized biblical discussion.
Some name to conversationdepends on who does the intro.
Um, Kyle, you are leading us inuh to the discussion today.
What are we gonna talk about?
Kyle (00:24):
Well, I had an idea, but I I I think I'd rather just talk
about what's on my heart.
I really want to talk about theneutron movie right now.
Nate (00:31):
Okay, well.
I haven't seen it.
Yeah, that might not appeal toand we're gonna spoil it for
that might not be everyone elsewho hasn't seen it.
That might not appeal to ouraudience.
Kyle (00:42):
So instead, let's talk about aspiring to the office of
overseer.
Okay.
How are you preparing to be anelder?
That's really the question Ithe central question I want to
focus on today.
Uh and there's two main textsthat we might bounce back and
forth between, and you you mightnot be surprised to learn that
it's 1 Timothy chapter 3 orTitus chapter 1.
(01:04):
Those are the main scripturesthat deal with elders.
And by the way, um don't turnoff this podcast quite yet.
I mean, give it at least fiveminutes, and if you want to turn
it off, then fair enough.
You know, we're not everybody'scup of tea, I get it.
But g give us at least fiveminutes.
Like, try to see this throughto the end of the episode.
And I uh this isn't just forlike a certain percentage of men
(01:26):
only.
I think there's going to bebroad appeal for everybody.
I think everyone's gonna getsomething out of this episode.
But yes, it is prefaced withthis idea of in 1 Timothy
chapter 3, um, let's see, Paulsays, it is a faithful saying,
if a man desires the position ofa bishop, he desires a good
work.
(01:46):
Where other translations, Ithink the New American Standard
says, if he aspires to theoffice of overseer, he desires a
good work.
So some of the key terms thereare aspiration and desire.
And when I think about thatidea of aspiring for something
or desiring a position, um, thattells me that becoming an elder
(02:08):
isn't something that justsimply happens one day.
You you turn 55 and now I'm oldenough, and I guess, oh, well,
I guess I guess I'm an elder.
It sounds like something thatyou like a goal that you work
towards.
You think about a kid.
What did you guys aspire to bewhen you were kids?
My aspiration was to live in ajunkyard and invent stuff.
(02:31):
Like for reels, that's what Itold my parents.
Jon (02:34):
Did you because you watched the Rescue Ranger?
Kyle (02:36):
Yeah.
Jon (02:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of did a lot of thirsty.
Nate (02:42):
Oh well, yeah, yeah.
The dog lived in a kind of ajunkyard.
A yard that was junky.
Jon (02:48):
Aspirations.
Uh, I mean, for careers andstuff, I always wanted to be
things that I found out that Iwas not able to do, like be a
police officer or military andfly planes or stuff like that.
Because my colorblindness andeyes and stuff like immediately
nixed that.
So that was kind of depressing.
Yeah, you bring up aninteresting point.
Kyle (03:09):
And then you learned it's really your superpower.
Nate (03:12):
Sure, that's a yeah, other wavelengths, the gray ones.
The gray ones.
Um, if anyone aspires to theoffice of overseer, he desires a
noble task.
Yeah, so there's not everyoneis uh gonna want to be an LR.
You know, it's a hey, do youwant to do this thing?
Doesn't say there's anythingwrong with not wanting to do
(03:33):
that thing.
Kyle (03:34):
Well, that's another question right there.
I wonder if you ask the sevenmen who serve as as shepherds,
and I'm gonna use those termsinterchangeably, by the way, if
you're listening, uh pastor,which is the same as shepherd.
So I I like the word shepherd,and that's my favorite term to
describe them because it reallyI think gets to the heart of the
job and the nature of the workmore than any other.
(03:56):
But overseer or bishop isanother term, elder.
So I'm gonna use those termsinterchangeably on this episode,
and um that that's a question.
Um, if if you're stillwondering about that, we'll we
could address that some otherway, or you could reach out and
message us.
But so just so you're clear,I'm gonna use those somewhat
interchangeably.
Nate (04:14):
So that we can wrangle about words.
Kyle (04:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I would wonder about theseven men who serve here.
If you did a poll, how many ofthem at our age, at 20, at 30,
at 40, you know, at thosedifferent stages in their life,
how many of them would have saidthat they aspired?
And the answers might vary thatat different points in their
life, maybe it wasn't on theirradar.
So I I think it's fair that noteveryone is going to say they
(04:39):
aspire, but is that just how youfeel right now?
And so there's the the massappeal for this, and I'm gonna
I'm gonna come back to this atthe end of the episode, but
here's the hook to keep you keepyou listening.
If you're if you're alreadystarting to tune out, like,
well, you know, elders, thatthat's a man thing, and I'm not
a man for the uh 5% of ouraudience that are women.
(05:01):
Um or maybe um if you're likein that percentage of men that's
that at this point in yourlife, well, it's not for me, or
something like that.
Here's the hook.
When we read through this textin just a minute, I want you to
really think some of the highpoints here that are described,
(05:22):
you might say, and I I thinkNate, you're right, it isn't
something that you must aspireto, but I would also challenge
you to think do you really wantto say maybe not the office or
or work this associate?
But what about thesequalifications?
Yeah, yeah.
Having a solid marriage, havingfaithful children, practicing
(05:44):
self-control, being highlyregarded in and outside of the
church, are those things youreally aren't interested in?
So I think this stands man,woman, young, old, whether you
feel at this moment in your lifeyou have an interest in being
an elder someday or not.
I feel like this text holds anappeal to everybody as not
(06:06):
defining some separate standardof, well, if you want to be an
elder, you can hold yourself toa higher standard, and here's
what it is in 1 Timothy 3.
I think this is saying, here'shere's a man that has practiced
his faith, and here's what thatlooks like being above reproach.
And I think we all shouldaspire to that.
Whether, whether being an uh anelder, serving it as an elder
(06:30):
in the church comes to fruitionor not.
Nate (06:32):
Yeah, it seems like a lot of the characteristics, uh,
above reproach, husband of onewife, sober-minded,
self-controlled, respectable,hospitable, able to teach, all
of those characteristics, it'salmost like an elder is just um
further along in his game, so tospeak.
Um practiced.
Yeah, well, well practiced inthose things.
Jon (06:53):
And and um But there are some that are you will based
upon where you find yourself inlife further down the line, that
will just disqualify you too.
So when you were talking andleading into this one, my first
thought is like, well, how manywhat's the data?
You know me, empirical data.
Well, what what's the data?
How many would actually bequalified?
(07:14):
Like statistically on thewhole, how many would actually
be qualified for it?
20%.
It's closer to like five.
Oh.
Like, like if you're being verylenient, six percent like
because of just the amount ofage, the age brackets, the
amount of men, the the just justjust those franklines.
(07:35):
But here's the thing is allyoung men at the age of 12 to 7,
18, 100 because they haven'tlived a life yet, like they
haven't started off in thatmode.
And so statistically, theyounger men have you might have
the qualifications and or themeant mental aptitude, the
(07:58):
desire to aspire to that.
And so I do think it's kind ofone of these, it's an
interesting thing.
Once you've started off in yourlife, you you know whether
you've aspired to it earlyenough.
I think this is a cause forunderstanding this aspiration
and the desire to train menearly to focus and look at being
(08:18):
maybe qualified or serving aselders in the future because
more they're more qualified whenthey're younger for that future
than they are later down theline.
Does that make sense?
Kyle (08:32):
Well, that's kind of the point I'm trying to make with
this episode is that the idea,the language here of desire and
aspiration, that implies there'ssome working towards it as if
it were a goal.
It's not a passive achievementuh or or something that just
happens when you turn a certainage.
Right.
It's a good idea.
It is the result of it.
It is the result of dedicatedeffort and focused direction in
(08:55):
your life.
So I think there is somemovement towards that objective
that that needs to take placethroughout your life, whether
whether you think that isrealistic or not about you in
the future, I still think it'sthe standard we should all
aspire to.
Jon (09:11):
Does that seem crazy though?
Did you have a question aboutthat?
Like when they're young, likeJames right now, he might aspire
to become an elder one day.
And there's really no reasonwhy you think he couldn't.
Well, if he aspires it rightnow.
Nate (09:24):
What you're saying is he hasn't disqualified himself.
Jon (09:26):
He hasn't disqualified himself.
He hasn't lived a life thatmight disqualify him.
He has all the opportunity.
If you think about it as intomaybe opportunity too, he has
100% of the opportunity at thatpoint.
But further down the line,people in their 40s to 70s, you
know, just the long stretch, bythat point in time in their
life, you may the narrowing oftheir qualification will be just
(09:47):
a small more significant.
Yeah.
And so you have more controlover that the younger you do.
Why is this a good conversationto have?
Because we don't thinkpreemptively.
We we don't generally think weplan ahead for this kind of
thing.
We may encourage them to wantto do that someday, but even
deacons sometimes, so we don'thave a conversation of like
(10:08):
which deacons might aspire tobecome elders one day, and or
which young men that are 20 andmight do that one day.
And I don't know that I've hada lot of conversations about
that with older people in mylife.
Hey, do you would you like tobe an elder one day?
What do you think you're gonnahave to do in the life you're
gonna have to live to bequalified?
And or to be a good leader, agood shepherd for that, or to
(10:31):
desire the work and do it well.
What do you think you mighthave to do?
And I think that it's a goodconversation to have because
it's you have to do it withintent.
Kyle (10:40):
You want to raise your son.
Well, your sons, you have twosons.
We talk about James, he getspicked on a lot in this podcast
because he's he's older of age.
Yeah, yeah.
So he's fair game.
Um, but you you want to raiseyour sons as if they would be
elders someday, though you'renot going to make that choice
for them, and it's up to acongregation.
That's that's again anotherbigger question that we probably
(11:03):
won't cover today is it's it'slet's see, how do I word this?
It's a objective standard, butwhether someone is qualified is
a subjective conclusion based onthe church's opinion.
Jon (11:15):
And and just because you have the desire to and you've
met in your mind and anassessment, met qualifications
for that, does that doesn't meanthat we you you might have
plenty of elders in thecongregation, but that doesn't
mean that you couldn't move andbe an elder somewhere else
someday.
Like there's there's all theseother factors to it where where
you live, the congregation, um,whether you have enough men to
(11:38):
be that.
Yeah.
Kyle (11:39):
Or going to the first Corinthians 12 uh metaphor of
the body, there are lots ofmembers, one body.
Being an elder just might notbe in the cards for you.
I still think it's what youaspire to.
Yeah.
And whether it plays out thatway or not, you find your role
in the body, you serve yourfunction.
And if aspiring to the officeof elder is how you direct your
(12:01):
steps, and if that doesn't workout, then at least you've
directed your steps in a in avery positive direction and
you've been equipping yourself,you can still be useful in so
many other capacities.
So, like with your son James, aqualification that you read,
Nate, was hospitable.
How can you prepare him to behospitable?
He doesn't own a home rightnow, but how can you maybe set
(12:22):
him on the path of being ahospitable person when he grows
up?
Can you, are there things youcan do now towards that end?
When guests come over to yourhouse, it's the whole family.
We have guests.
It's not just mom and I.
That could be something likewith my girls, we make them talk
to three people at church andnot the same three people every
(12:42):
time, and not three people thatthey know.
Preferably when we havevisitors, you're gonna go up and
talk to them, you're gonnaintroduce yourself, you're gonna
ask them their name, and you'regonna ask them one or two more
questions, and then you can goplay with your friends because
I'm trying to teach them to behospitable.
That this church, we haveguests, and I want you to make
them feel welcome.
I'm trying to get them to buyin now so that when they're
(13:05):
older, they are inclined to behospitable.
When we have guests at thehome, I want them to come out of
their room and say hello whenguests enter.
I want them to get accustomedto being hospitable now.
So those are ways where asparents, we can think even with
young children, whether thishappens or not, it's not my
(13:26):
choice.
But I want to direct them downa path where it doesn't preclude
serving in that way.
Jon (13:33):
I like this conversation because I feel like we always
have, we don't have theseconversations uh about goal
planning and and the intent ofthe future, especially when we
think about kids or youngerpeople in general.
But even then, I think we'regonna talk about ourselves is
you know, we're not super oldyet.
Um, and different aspirations,you know, we all should have.
Kyle (13:55):
I've referenced 1 Timothy chapter 3 because I like the
introduction uh where it talksabout uh aspiring to the office
of overseer.
But I want to jump over toTitus.
Let me read this so that we atleast um as as our audience has
a basis for what we'rediscussing.
Uh Titus chapter 1, beginningin verse 5, Paul says, For this
reason I left you in Crete thatyou should set in order the
(14:16):
things that are lacking andappoint elders in every city as
I commanded you.
If a man is blameless, thehusband of one wife, having
faithful children, not accusedof dissipation or
insubordination, for a bishopmust be blameless as a steward
of God, not self-willed, notquick-tempered, not given to
wine, not violent, not greedyfor money, but hospitable, a
(14:38):
lover of what is good,sober-minded, just, holy,
self-controlled, holding fastthe faithful word as he has been
taught, that he may be able touh, by sound doctrine, both to
exhort and convict those whocontradict.
And if we keep reading, hesays, For there are many
insubordinate, both idle talkersand deceivers, especially those
of the circumcision, whosemouths must be stopped.
(15:00):
So Paul emphasizes, at leastthere in Crete, there were
problems with these falseteachers.
And he says, You need toappoint elders, shepherds who
protect the flock.
They must, and so I likeTitus's description because he
emphasized, gives a little moreemphasis to uh capability with
handling the word of God andbeing able to defend the truth
(15:22):
because there are false teachersthat someone needs to stand up
to them, someone needs to beable to speak with soundness and
be reasonable and protect theflock from from these uh
predators that might come in.
So that's that's the standardwe are talking about.
And I mean, just be honest withyourself as you read through
that.
(15:42):
Take the aspiration for theoffice of elder out of this
conversation and just thinkabout that description of a
follower of Christ.
Can you honestly say, I don'treally need to.
I mean, I get it.
You you don't have to bemarried.
All right, that's that's anobvious exception here.
You can choose not to bemarried, but if you're going to
(16:05):
be married, I don't really wantto be as the the literal Greek
text says, a one of one man orof one woman a man.
I don't really want to be aone-woman man.
Or I don't really want a greatmarriage.
You don't have to havechildren.
But if you do, do you reallywant to settle for, well, I'll
(16:25):
raise children, but they'll beinsubordinate.
Nate (16:27):
Yeah, I mean these are troublemakers.
These are great qualities tofor any Christian to aspire to,
right?
Like we we should we shouldwant to be uh above reproach.
Kyle (16:39):
Just like I have a picture of Chris Hemsworth on my mirror
that I look at every morning iswhat I aspire to be physically.
I do have a picture of him.
I don't think he really does.
This scripture should be rightnext to Chris Hemsworth on my
mirroring answer.
Spiritually, uh I think searchyour heart.
I think you know the answer.
(17:00):
This text should be right nextto that.
Is like I look at this everymorning is whether I serve as an
elder down the road or not,this is who I want to be.
I want a great marriage.
And if I'm settling for less, Ineed to fix that.
I want to be a great father ormother.
And if I'm settling for less,or if I'm not giving my kids the
(17:20):
attention they need from me, Ineed to address that.
I want to be capable with thescriptures.
I want to be able to talk aboutthe gospel and salvation with
people, even those that aremaybe misguided or challenging
me.
I want to be able to have thoseback and forth conversations.
I want to know the scripturewell enough.
I want to have a goodreputation in the workplace.
(17:41):
I want to have self-control.
Like we should just look atthis list and forget the part
about office of overseer.
We should just aspire to this.
And then appointing elders issimply acknowledging the cream
always rises to the top.
There are there are people thatstand out, and it's not that an
elder has a different or higherset of standards.
(18:02):
That's that's like theoverarching point I want to make
in this episode.
But also, as pertains to us,what we talked about our
children.
We could have a mindset forwhen they're young.
What can we do as parents tomaybe set them down a path that
that maybe leads to thissomeday?
Nate (18:25):
Well, I liked your um idea just about looking to the
future, like having goals andbeing intentional with with
those goals.
And I think if if we look atthis list as, well, these are
goals we should aspire to andthen lead by example and talk
about them with our ourchildren.
(18:46):
You know, I I'm looking at thisGod's steward, okay, so be a
servant.
Above reproach.
You know, we want to do theright thing in as many
situations as we can, in everysituation.
Uh-uh.
Not arrogant, you know, humble.
Like these are things that weshould be teaching our uh
teaching our children, uhaspiring to individually, not
just leading by example, butalso sharing, you know.
(19:08):
We did this because that'sshowing humility.
Humility is uh putting othersbefore before myself and serving
them.
And I think that if we uh leadby example, show them and teach
them, then they will naturallyuh do those things because
that's how they were raised.
But I also think that you knowwe we can teach these things,
(19:31):
but if we do not lead byexample, then then it's much
less likely that the peoplewe're teaching our kids or
whoever else it is are going tolatch on because they're gonna
see the what do they call thatdissonance.
Yeah.
They're gonna see thedifference between what we say
and who we are, and who we areis gonna speak louder.
Kyle (19:52):
Well, let's sort of talk through different phases of life
here.
So as children, we don't alwaysget control of our environment.
So maybe more as parents, wewant to be mindful of training
our children.
You know, my dad would bring mealong when someone was moving
from one house to another acrosstown, and I wasn't much help.
But it was a good thing for meto be there and see that we
(20:13):
serve others.
Or when I was house sitting asa teenager and I accidentally
damaged the drywall, notdrastically, but enough that my
dad said, you need to go talk tohim, like you need to be
accountable.
He was teaching me that idea ofbeing above reproach means you
don't hide your mistakes, youown them.
So I was trained from a youngage, and that's what I want to
do as a father.
But then as I became a teenagerand into my early 20s, it
(20:37):
started to be Kyle had his handon uh the rudder or the steering
wheel, and I started to makedecisions that guided the ship
and the path I was on.
So for you guys, when you werein your 20s, you know, 18
through through uh throughthroughout your 20s, what are
some things that you did thathave helped you be who you are?
(20:59):
What are some things maybeadvice you would say, well, I
could have done this better, andmaybe you guys can learn from
this.
Um I'll just say, first of all,the biggest thing in your 20s
is if you're if you're thinkingyou're you're you're someone
that uh uh is going to bemarried, uh don't enter into
that lightly.
Think long and hard about whoyou're gonna marry.
(21:21):
And this is something thatwhether it's a man or woman, and
you're talking about whichwhich man will I marry, which
woman will I marry, you need tothink about the future and what
does that future look like, andis it one that honors God?
You know, in 2 Corinthians umchapter 6, Paul talks about do
not be unequally yoked withunbelievers.
Specifically, he's not talkingabout marriage in that text, but
(21:43):
what better illustration ofbeing yoked to someone is more
applicable or direct thanmarriage?
Yeah.
So I I I would come short ofsaying that's a prohibition or
that if you marry an unbeliever,it's invalidated in the eyes of
God.
No.
But I think the Bible does tellyou don't do that.
Yeah.
Nate (22:01):
It's not it's not a good choice.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, you asked about umour twenties, and my first
thought was we probably don'twant to talk about my twenties.
Um did a lot of things Iprobably sh well, I know I
shouldn't have done.
But I can say this.
One um one thing that I I thinkum I had some wisdom about was
(22:22):
not marrying uh someone who uhwe differed significantly on
matters of faith.
I dated a few girls um and wedid not see eye to eye on
matters of faith.
Many other things in our livesmatched up, but that didn't.
And I just knew in my heart ofhearts um that that's a huge
(22:47):
mistake if I if I enter into thecommitment of marriage with
someone who I do not share thedeepest values with.
Um and so I I waited until Ifound someone who we held the
same values when it came to ourfaith.
And that has been probably oneof the biggest blessings in my
adult life.
So while I made a lot ofmistakes in my 20s, that's
(23:09):
that's one I don't think that Idid.
Kyle (23:11):
But I I I think there's something powerful about that
too, is that that that probablycharacterizes a good percentage
of our audience too.
Is um I made mistakes.
I think we all make mistakes.
I I think I look at my 20s alittle differently than yours.
My mistakes were more subtle.
It doesn't mean I needed anyless grace from Jesus than you.
And that was my struggle waswas realizing I was just as lost
(23:32):
as the next guy.
But even though I was born andraised in the church, I always
struggled to feel lost.
Nate (23:37):
Yeah.
Kyle (23:38):
But I understand that better now.
But I think a lot of ouraudience would would resonate
with that idea.
Nate (23:43):
And I've I've heard people say, well, I could never be an
elder because I've done too manystupid things, I made too many
mistakes, and but then you look,you know, it's um at least for
me, I look back at a lot of mymistakes, and I I um I do think
like it has given me a really umpersonal understanding of
grace.
And when you go through somereally difficult situations,
(24:05):
whether it's your own fault ornot, maybe it is the mistakes
that you make.
If you come at it with theright attitude, you learn some
really valuable stuff, and itreally helps you empathize with
people who maybe made a reallypoor choice.
Um and they're in a verydifficult situation.
But because, you know, maybeyou've been there, um, you have
(24:25):
some additional wisdom throughexperience that that someone who
hasn't experienced that, theyjust don't have the same kind of
uh maybe, maybe connectionbecause they haven't been there.
Kyle (24:36):
I think that's what makes Paul's testimony so powerful is
just a contrast of who he wasand the 180-degree change that
Christ made in his life.
So when someone tells me Idon't think I could ever be uh
an elder because of all mymistakes, I say, well, I don't
think you understand just howbig and how powerful and how
(24:56):
amazing and beautiful God'sgrace is.
Nate (24:59):
Well, I mean, you look at like Peter, I mean, I kind of
see him as like a redneckfisherman, like uh I don't I
don't there are probably peoplewho know a lot more about him
than I do.
But what mistake in his lifedid he not make, right?
He was really impetuous.
I I think he you know thoughtwith his emotions before his
brain a lot of the time.
And repeatedly Yeah, yeah.
I mean, uh we don't knoweverything there is to know
(25:21):
about his life, but I would whatmistake did he not make?
I he was uh he was not aperfect man.
Um, and yet he became an elder.
Jon (25:29):
And and I wonder it's like asked the question of why.
Why did Jesus want him?
Sure.
And I think it's because you doneed to get down to the core
fact behind all this and say heneeds him.
And he needed, he needs men.
Yeah.
He needs us, he needs men andpeople to step up and uh bring
(25:50):
people to Christ and to shepherdthose who you know on their
way.
And so he needs men.
It's yeah, and I think thatthat's one of those core things
you need to think about in theback of your head is that um
this is something that we needto have.
And some I mean at some pointpeople need to identify if
they're the people to step up.
Kyle (26:09):
This is really important because I don't I don't want
people to have their takeawayfrom this episode be, well, if I
haven't been working on thissince day one, then what's the
point now?
That that that's not thetakeaway.
Is I'm just trying to say is asearly as we can, this is a good
goal, a good objective toaspire towards.
But if you haven't, if you'regetting a later start, that
(26:30):
doesn't stop you either fromfrom from getting on this path
and making this your goal andaspiration.
And so don't don't feel like ifI botched it in my 20s or my
30s, it's too late for me now.
That's not the point.
Nate (26:42):
So that brings to mind um the passage in Romans 8, uh
where I'm just gonna bring it upso that uh so that I don't
butcher it.
But um yeah, if you're thinkinglike, well, my mistakes um
preclude me from you knowbecoming an elder or you know,
I'm just a little bit late tothe game and I've done too many
things in life.
Kyle (27:02):
Neither height nor depth nor um that's not the one it's
28.
Nate (27:08):
Uh for those who love God, all things work together for
good.
For those who are calledaccording to his purpose.
And I think about that.
Like, for those who love God,all things work together for
good?
Wait a second.
I look back at my life and Igo, man, I made some horrible
mistakes there.
That was terrible.
But then I read this verse andI thought about, okay, how on
(27:29):
earth can that be a good thing?
And then the thought came tome, well, there will be someone
else who goes through somethinglike that, who needs the wisdom
that you now have from goingthrough that thing.
And uh I can look back time andtime again, uh, young men who
have gone through and mademistakes that I made when I was
(27:51):
their age, uh, and I can say,you are not alone.
And that was one of the biggestthings when I was in my early
20s that was so difficult is Ifelt like I was this horrible
sinner, and so nobody else inthe church had ever made
mistakes like this.
And so how could I go and admitto them, you know, the the
horrible things that I had done?
(28:11):
God can take those things,those mistakes that we've made,
and if we love him and if we'recalled according to his purpose,
he'll turn them into somethinggood.
And so don't let that stop youfrom, you know, wanting to be an
elder.
Jon (28:23):
So you're talking about past grandpa, dad, both elders.
I had as a 20-year-oldaspirations and desires in that
direction.
I did not expect to, you know,have a six, seven-year, I just
did that.
Six, seven years.
It was between six, seven.
Uh it was between six and sevenyears uh of marriage fail and
(28:45):
to get divorced.
And I felt like during thattime, I I felt like, you know,
I'm losing a lot in life.
Am I also losing that abilityto serve the Lord in in certain
ways?
And if I'm ever qualified insome day, I don't think that
changes my desire to bringothers to Christ and to be
someone to help, you know, leadmy family and lead lead others.
(29:07):
But I do think that I know whatit's like, as we're talking
about, to be in positions whereyou know you just don't know
what the future is going to looklike.
Kyle (29:16):
For those that might be listening in that late teen,
early 20s demographic, um, whichI'd like to think we're we're
hip and in in it enough where wewe attract some of that crowd,
maybe.
Nate (29:28):
So if that's you 67% think that.
Kyle (29:31):
Yeah.
I would just say this is a timeto be present with the church,
um, and and invest in your faithby reading and studying, trying
to learn and understand.
Uh, and we'll talk about in the30s.
Maybe that's the time, 30s and40s is like, let's let's dip our
toes in the water of teaching alittle bit.
But in your twenties, learn andgrow.
Sit at the feet of of thosewise teachers, learn from them,
(29:54):
ask lots of questions, and tryto be involved with uh and w
with anything going on.
On at church or with people atchurch, try to be involved, try
to be present, and and justthink long and hard and pray all
day long and all night longabout who it is you're gonna
marry and think very carefullyabout that decision.
So that that's just good adviceif you not to say that that
(30:18):
that it's if you mess up once,then you're off track, and
that's that.
But that that would I uh that'swhat I would say would be some
good advice for those in their20s that that want to have
future success spiritually, ismaybe focus on those goals.
We get into the 30s and and and40s, and that's a little more
where we are.
John's in his early 40s, I ammonths, weeks away from entering
(30:42):
into the 40s.
So, and we're we're all ourfamilies are all roughly
equivalent with multiplechildren right around the same
age.
John and I have more kids thanyou do, but keep going.
Jon (30:53):
Yeah, yeah.
No one's counting except for weare.
It's quality over quantity.
I mean, thank you very much.
Nate (31:00):
Low blow.
Kyle (31:01):
What we hit perfection, we hit perfection at two kids.
It's taking you guys threetries.
Jon (31:06):
So but yes, we're all in that kind of mode where uh we
have young kids.
Um, yeah, mine's a littleolder, and and I I'm enjoying
that.
I mean, you're kind of I'm kindof really enjoying having.
Is that crazy?
And does I don't think I'veever heard of anyone saying
they're enjoying having a13-year-old.
I don't know that that's thingspeople say, but I'm enjoying
(31:29):
seeing someone grow and uh askquestions and explore the world
and learn.
Kyle (31:35):
What I look forward to in my 40s, I think, I think 30s and
40s kind of run together withwith some of these ideas.
Um I think it's important notto get caught up in in career.
We want to be financiallymindful of the future, but we
just want to make sure thatdoesn't become at the expense of
our kids.
Nate (31:51):
Not to the neglect of our family.
Kyle (31:53):
Yeah.
And and so just being mindfulof uh what's that what's that
country song about uh you mightthink it was wasted time, but
you reflect on it, it was timewell wasted when when you took a
day off from work to go fishingwith your son or things like
that.
Like just be mindful ofinvesting in your children and
and well, I can I ask you aquestion?
Nate (32:16):
No, no, no, keep going, Kyle.
Kyle (32:18):
Uh didn't you just ask him the question?
Jon (32:19):
Can I ask you a question?
But it I as it kind of likegets into here is is Nate, when
you were uh when you became adeacon, yeah, did you weigh this
idea of like do I have the timeto to be a deacon?
Yeah do I, you know, with myfamily and my my career
aspirations and things likethat, did you sit there and kind
of weigh that?
Uh yeah.
(32:41):
Was it a hard deliberation orwas it an easy deliberation?
Nate (32:45):
But John, I think it was I think it was I think it was
difficult.
I think where it became moredifficult um uh a year or two
after I became a deacon and umyou know, times got hard and I
had to get a second job.
That's when it became moredifficult.
It's like, oh, um I I reallyhave to be uhware of making time
(33:08):
to do the work of a deacon.
Jon (33:09):
Yeah.
But I I bring that up becauseI'm I I think that that's a a
real concern people think about,even the idea of becoming an
elder is like I'm gonna waituntil I'm done with my career,
or I'm gonna wait until youknow, like a certain milestone
in life, and I'm gonna kind ofmaybe if that's something I'll
do then, but you know, I uhmaybe I don't have time to do
that.
And I think that people kind ofweigh that idea of the time
(33:33):
commitment to be a deacon or anelder or you know, other things.
Um and I I don't know that thatshould I I think that's a
normal factor, a normal, normalthing to think about, but I do
um hope that that doesn't swaypeople to plan for it still,
(33:54):
because I mean I don't it's likewhen you have kids.
Who who sat there and said, Ihave just amount of money to
have my three kids?
No one does that.
You you have your kids and youfeel like you figure out how to
adapt to it.
And I don't think that becomingyou know a leader or or doing
different things is somethingyou go into it uh foolheartedly
and adapt to.
But I do think that there'sprobably not going to be a
(34:15):
perfect time in your life whereyou're gonna have all the time
in the world and and plenty oftime and and dedication to just
serve.
And so I do think it'ssomething that is do you know
what I mean?
Like I don't I worry thatpeople will kind of put off the
idea of I just maybe later inlife I'll do things because
right now I don't need to.
Kyle (34:34):
I've known plenty of good men that had the talent, had the
ability, had the heart uh andthe temperament for serving as a
as a deacon or as an elder, uh,but it's that uh that attitude
of of some more convenient time.
Nothing.
Jon (34:50):
And I don't think it's ever gonna happen.
Kyle (34:52):
And I feel like I I feel like this is the stage in your
life when when your career,you're kind of at that fork in
the road with career and uhplanning for retirement, and now
you're providing for growingkids.
And uh now's the time whenyou're tempted to pour all your
efforts and energies into noblecauses, but to be pulled away
(35:14):
from what is of eternalimportance.
Jon (35:17):
Am I being naive and thinking that that's not that
shouldn't be as big of a factoras we make it sometimes?
Well, and I think we shouldn'tshy away from I mean, I you
don't want if someone reallycan't commit the time at all to
do it, and you don't wantsomeone who's who's not able to.
I get that.
But I also think that if it's agoal, you have to plan around
(35:40):
and make time to do the thingsthat are worthwhile doing.
And I let's say I don't want tobe naive and and just saying
I'm gonna bub a blanketstatement for everyone else.
Make the time, it's good to do,do it.
Um, because yeah, I mean, one,you have to desire the work, but
two, I don't know.
I just I don't know.
Well, I think that's anunhealthy idea.
Kyle (35:59):
I think that's an unhealthy idea.
Again, with the idea that uhthe qualifications for elders,
it's not a separate set of of ora higher standard.
So if I'm too busy to be anelder, what you're really just
saying is I'm too busy to Idon't I'm not an elder, so I
don't have to spend as much timeas they do on church stuff.
Well, take the title away andyou're spreading God's word and
(36:21):
mentoring people.
That's my point is it is doelders have I mean some higher
requirement of of timecommitment on on doing things in
the Lord's kingdom or for God'sglory?
And and so what when you sayI'm too busy to serve as a
deacon or too busy to serve asan elder, it's well, what else
(36:42):
are you too busy not to do?
Jon (36:44):
I think the best qualified elders are people who are
already doing that.
And people who are alreadydoing the work of elders, who
are out there who are justliving their life, trying to get
people to Christ and being thebest example that they can.
And that mentoring people alongthe way.
Kyle (36:58):
At this point in my life, it's a little different because
I'm a preacher and it's my jobto teach Bible classes, but I
think that at this age, uh, Ilove what uh Phil Robertson said
in our gospel meeting a coupleweeks ago.
You can listen to it uh on ourYouTube channel for the Clovis
Church of Christ.
Uh he talks about that thatthere's really no excuse by the
time you get to uh 50.
You should be a Bible scholarand you should see yourself that
(37:21):
way.
That you've committed time to,and it doesn't mean you have to
get a master's degree inbiblical studies, but you should
be someone that knows thescriptures.
If you commit your time to itand work towards that, that's
something you we should allaspire to do.
And it's very reasonable, and Ithink it's it's honestly kind
of uh embarrassing if if you'vebeen a Christian for 30 years.
(37:42):
So I I guess my encouragementis in your 20s, 30s, and and
into your 40s, is when you'represented with opportunities to
step up and do something or takeleadership if it's not the
office of deacon or elder, butif you're presented with an
opportunity to take a leadershiprole, whether it's teaching a
class or organizing some sort ofservice and taking care of
(38:05):
others, don't walk away from it.
Oh, sure.
Don't turn your back on thatopportunity, embrace it.
And I I this is something Itake to heart.
Uh, in some of our elders'meetings, um, we've had some
conversations about potentiallybringing in uh a young preacher
like I did 20 years ago at thisvery church to train, to do a
(38:27):
one-year training program.
And I keep thinking, Scott, Iknow he just sort of retired,
but but he'll be the one to leadthat.
I I'm I don't have enoughexperience.
And I just had this moment ofwell, I've been doing this for
20 years, and I don't haveenough experience to share and
(38:47):
help someone.
What have I been doing the last20 years?
Like if if that's how I feelpart of it is I just maybe I'm
trying to feel like I should behumble about this, or but no, I
think this is an opportunity,and and just to be clear,
nothing has been determinedabout that.
That's all very tentative talkabout bringing in a training
preacher, so just uh don't runwith that too far.
(39:08):
Uh but this is more about myself-reflection, and I it's it's
an opportunity I shouldembrace, not not feel scared of,
and and try to learn from it asproving grounds.
Um by the way, things likevisiting, you know, elders.
If you're a shepherd, you knowthe sheep in the flock.
Shepherds, our shepherds hereat this church are very good
(39:31):
about visiting folks that are inthe hospital or that can't get
out of the home or that arestruggling spiritually.
And if you have a desire to dothat, but it seems intimidating,
just call up one of theshepherds and say, Can I go
visit some folks with you?
I do that.
Yeah.
You know, and I'm the preacherhere, and I still do that.
I still call up.
Uh, there's a couple elders Ido that somewhat regularly with.
(39:51):
I call them up and say, Let'sgo visit a few folks today.
And it just makes me feelbetter knowing I don't have to
carry a conversation.
Um, there's someone elsetalking and makes it easier.
And so there's ways to do thatand get yourself involved,
putting some of what youhopefully have been learning in
your your teens and 20s, startputting it into practice.
(40:12):
Um start small.
Be involved with uh VBS or orco-teaching a Bible class for a
semester.
Start uh teach teach a homeBible study group devotional for
one night.
That's a one-night commitment.
Um if you've never done aninvitation, maybe sign up to do
that.
Find some ways where you canstart to apply what you've
(40:35):
learned in the scriptures.
You might think, I'm not readyto teach.
Well, have you been a Christianfor 20 years at this point in
your life?
And you can't teach a10-year-old Bible basics?
You can.
You're just doubting yourself.
Jon (40:47):
So, Kyle, what is it to aspire to the uh office of an
overseer?
Kyle (40:53):
Well, the idea of aspire, let's see.
Um to stretch oneself or toreach out after for something.
Uh Vine says it is signifyingthe mental effort of stretching
oneself oneself out for a thingor longing after it.
Nate (41:10):
So that's interesting.
You the word aspire is usedbecause in the word aspire is
the word spire, and aspire isthe top, right?
The pinnacle of a building or aprecipice.
We should be aiming.
Aiming high.
Aiming high, right?
And and there are otherpassages that tell us to do
that, and not necessarily in thecontext of becoming an elder,
but like Ephesians 4, I think itis, it talks about we should
(41:32):
aim to be like Jesus, right?
That was what we should beaiming at.
Is that not an aspiration likeshooting high?
Yeah, we should shoot high.
Absolutely.
And and if you have that goal,uh the younger you are, the the
more likely you are to, youknow, really dig into that.
Jon (41:50):
If you're 80, 90 years old at the end of your life and you
had aspired to be an elder or ashepherd, and you lived the life
that you could, but you maybehave never actually served as an
elder.
I don't think anyone's going tolook back on a life that's
wasted.
I mean, so at the end of theday, like you're you're not, you
(42:11):
know, as we should use ourlives to his fullest extent and
aspire a lot higher than that.
Kyle (42:18):
And I would also add that at this point in your lives, as
we're getting into our 40s now,um people are looking up to us.
Uh we're we're none of us areelders.
You gotta be at least 50 to bean elder.
Is that no, no, not kidding?
Um, but none of us are eldersyet, but there are people that
are looking up to us, and Ithink it's important to even at
(42:39):
this point include them in someof the things we do.
Nate (42:43):
You bring up a good uh good um thought there, Kyle.
And I think that it's importantthat uh we do that as a as a
church.
I'm not an elder, I'm not thewisest guy on the planet at all.
Um, but I think that's a reallysmart thing to do is to look to
the future.
And what do they call that inbusiness?
Legacy planning something?
Looking to the future, who aregonna be who's the next
(43:03):
generation of elders?
You know, and then maybebeneath that, who's the next
generation of deacons?
And who are the folks who areuh have a predisposition towards
maybe teaching or leading?
Kyle (43:15):
So thoughtfully ask some people to get involved in
something in something you'reworking on at this phase of your
life.
Um thoughtfully choose somepeople and ask them to maybe how
can they get involved, how canthey participate, how can they
help?
Because that was some of themost formative experiences I had
were when I was training, I wasgiven a list of names and
(43:38):
addresses as a 20-year-old or21-year-old.
You're gonna go visit thesecomplete strangers, and that's
your job for today, Kyle.
It was awkward, but I waspushed into it and I I benefited
greatly.
Or uh a little bit later on ina different church, we didn't
have elders, but one of the menthat I looked up to, who became
(43:58):
an elder of that church, therewas a situation where we'll call
him a patriarch of the church,had some had some issues.
It's a Matthew 18 situation.
Go and um take two or threewitnesses.
And this older gentleman that Ilooked up to said, Kyle, I want
you to come with me on this.
It's gonna be good for you.
It's not gonna be pleasant,it's not gonna be fun to go have
(44:20):
this conversation with thiswith this elderly member.
Um, and it was not a pleasantthing, but it was very formative
for me that he he brought me inon something that needed to
happen.
And and uh got me out of mycomfort zone to do so.
I I've tried to be mindful ofhow can I bring some people in
and maybe thoughtfully push themout of their comfort zone, but
(44:44):
without overwhelming them.
Nate (44:46):
Well, isn't that just discipleship?
Kyle (44:48):
Yeah.
Nate (44:49):
I mean, right?
Everybody's at maybe adifferent level, you know.
Uh it's discipleship, right?
It and that takes um people toto push us out of our comfort
zone sometimes, and and it takespeople to care, right?
It says go therefore and makedisciples.
Well, that means there's adiscipler and a disciplee.
Kyle (45:06):
As I look ahead to you know, into my 40s and 50s, as I
look ahead to the comingdecades, my children will be
teenagers and going on tocollege and moving out.
That's what's ahead for me.
Yeah.
Um, I've been married for 20years.
So I I've I'm pretty far downthe road, but I've still got a
lot of major obstacles ahead ofme.
(45:26):
I look ahead and think, there'snever a time to just hit cruise
control in life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh I mean, just think theexample that sticks out to me is
King David.
When you go to 2 Samuel chapter11, and you read those first 10
chapters of the book, um he heit took him a while to secure
the throne, and then he had todeal with some of Saul's sons
(45:52):
who who most of the tribes stillwere faithful to him.
He ruled over Judah only, butthen he unified the kingdom and
reigned over all Israel.
And then there's someconquests, like in chapter 8,
and he further expanded theboundaries and conquered enemies
and found peace, and herelocated the ark back to its
proper home.
Um, he did a lot of things andaccomplished a lot, and I think
(46:16):
he's at that midway point inlife, and then Bathsheba
happens.
And it it things sort of startto head downhill slowly for him
after that.
And so I just that story alwayssticks out to me as like I look
at all David accomplished atthat point in his life, and I'm
like, that's sort of how I feelright now.
(46:36):
I've I've got kids that aregetting into the teenage years
almost, and I'm about 40, I'vebeen preaching for 20 years, I
feel like I've got someexperience and some knowledge,
I've been married for 20 years.
I've actually like done threeor four different uh marriage,
pre-marriage counselings.
Like I feel like I'm startingto be, I'm starting to be that
guy, that that older guy thatpeople look up to.
(46:58):
Well, it's not time to coast.
Oh, yeah.
Like that that's the fear Ihave, and something that I need
to keep uh keep present, is justdon't, don't, don't start
coasting.
Well, do you guys have anyother final thoughts about what
we've talked about or what whatyour thoughts are about looking
ahead, what what's coming downthe road for you guys, and and
what it means to aspire to be uhan overseer.
(47:21):
But also I think the biggerpoint is just this is a clear
objective.
First Timothy chapter three,Titus chapter one, those those
paragraphs about the elder uhand the deacon, those are just
descriptions of what we shouldall want to be as Christians.
Jon (47:37):
Let me say that I aspire to be someone that my son looks up
to.
I aspire to be someone that canhelp others.
Um, I aspire to beknowledgeable.
I want to be at a point whereI'm at a place that I can help
others because I've managed myown my own faith, my own
understanding, learning.
(47:58):
But I have sometimes a problemwith a presumptuous perspective
of aspiring to be an elder, asif others would think I'm
qualified.
And and so sometimes I thinkthat even though you you sit
there and you think, hey, well,is this something you want to
do?
One, I I do want to self-checkthat you're wanting to do
something for the right reason.
(48:18):
You know, uh I want to get inthere and and and you know, I
have all the answer.
You know, I don't want to havethat kind of mentality.
But two, I do.
Kyle (48:25):
Remember what Jesus said, leadership is serving.
Jon (48:29):
So you should definitely, you know, be humbled in that
perspective.
But I just I don't know if youguys have any better insight
this or have ever felt the sameway, but I don't think I've ever
just walked out there and saidto someone, yeah, I hope it's be
an elder one day.
Well, we need to have- Eventhough I might have that feeling
inside and have at one point intime thought that it feels kind
(48:51):
of presumptuous, or I don'tknow, it feels weird to be in
that position to make thatstatement as if because I feel
like it's really up to the flockto decide if you are to want to
want to protect the flock, towant to glorify God through
keeping souls saved and helpingthem get to heaven.
Kyle (49:11):
What greater life could you aspire to?
Now, I think we all need theattitude of King David, though.
So I'm gonna come back to Davidin a positive sense.
He aspired to build the templefor God, he wanted to build a
house for God, and God's answerwas, no, not you.
Your hands have shed muchblood.
So he said, Okay, I'm not gonnabuild it.
(49:32):
I will gather supplies, I willput designs together, I will do
everything I can to makeSolomon's job easier for him.
And I think that's the attitudewe all need to have is it's not
so much that I want a title ora recognition, if that never
happens, that's fine.
I will find the next, the nextbest way to be useful in this
(49:55):
body and and serve in whateverrole or function I'm in to the
glory of God.
And so that's a lesson I thinkwe can learn from King David and
when when he aspired to buildthe house for God, but was told
no, just wasn't for him.
Nate (50:10):
Yeah, sometimes you have something that you want to do
and you find out you can'tdoesn't mean you quit.
It means you do what you can doin that situation, or you find
a way, you know, over aroundthrough whatever to get a job
done.
But you do it.
Just do it.
Kyle, great episode, man.
Um, really appreciated uh theperspective on um aspiring to be
(50:33):
an elder, uh, regardless of whoyou are, aspiring to the
characteristics and qualities ofan elder, man, woman, uh, you
know, old, young.
This is very good.
So we appreciate that verymuch.
And if you're listening and youappreciated this uh this
conversation, this episode,like, subscribe, share with your
friends, and uh we we hope tohave you back at the next
(50:55):
episode.
Kyle (50:58):
We aspire to have 100,000 subscribers by the end of 2026.
Let's do it.
Nate (51:06):
I mean, exponentially, all we'd have to do is double our
subscribership every day.
Kyle (51:11):
Oh, is that all?
Well, I mean Well, if if yousponsor five subscribers beneath
you, that's right, then you canstart your own network.
That's right.
It's like a pyramid.
Jon (51:22):
And then and then we'll have the Michael Scott pyramid.
Kyle (51:26):
You know, they they talk about like you used to say like
the Cadillac of blank.
Like like that was like a uh apositive thing.
And you say, well, you're justa Timu blank, you're a Timu
version, you're a Timuphotographer.
Oh it's like an insult.
Can we do that like like likeTimu Christians, Timu
Christianity?
Oh you're just a cheapknockoff, cheap knockoff of the
(51:47):
real thing?
Cheap Christian.
It's a good podcast episode.
Jon (51:49):
Is there a revelation church that that aligns to?
Oh.
Timu, Timu congregation.
Yeah.
Is that Lost First Love?
No, that's not.
Kyle (52:04):
You have a name, but you are dead?
Yeah.
Jon (52:06):
Well, I guess Timu.
Or pretend literally pretend tobe real.
That would be what that wouldbe, right?
Nate (52:15):
Sometimes you have something that you want to do
and you find out you can't,doesn't mean you quit.
It means you do what you can doin that situation, or you find
a way, you know, over a roundthree or whatever, to get a job
done, but you do it.
Kyle (52:29):
Just do it.
Or you slip your opponent somepoison and just remove them from
the equation.
Iokane.
Iokane powder.
Nate (52:38):
I was thinking rice and I like rice and beans.
Like on a tortilla.
Jon (52:44):
I just want to build up over time.
You know, I'm mean to iokanepowder.
I just think that would be areally good jumble approach.
Kyle (52:53):
If I mean it says here that Titus was to appoint
elders, so I can just wave mymagic wand as the preacher.
If you want to be an elder,I'll just make it.
Just make it happen.
Make it happen.
Poof.
Poof.
For our audience uh at home,that's not how it works, just to
be clear.
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