September 9, 2025 • 40 mins
In September 2021, Tom Phillips vanished from the small town of Marokopa, New Zealand, with his three young children.
What was initially branded as a search for a missing family quickly became one of the most baffling cases.
For nearly four years, Tom managed to elude authorities, surfacing only through sightings, robberies and CCTV footage.
In this episode, we trace the timeline with the little information made available, til the tragic confrontation on the 8th of September that saw the end of the pursuit for the family.
Was this a desperate father protecting his kids from a broken system, or a fugitive putting them at risk?
What does this case reveal about the justice system, custody battles, and the limits of law enforcement and media-designed coverage?
Join me as we dig into the facts behind a case that is dividing the internet.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Welcome to Exhuming the Truth, the podcast where we delve into
the mysterious worlds of cold cases, missing persons, true
crime, and the fascinating science that is forensics.
I'm forensic scientist and criminologist Asha Walther, and
I am so thrilled to have you with me on this journey as we
dance in the shadows of the world of crime, shining a light
(00:38):
on scientific discovery while becoming another voice for those
who need it most. So grab a drink and get
comfortable while we jump into this episode together.
Hey guys, Happy Tuesday or whatever day it is that you're
listening to this. It is Tuesday, the 9th of
September as I'm recording, and I hope you noticed that I did
(01:03):
not include the verbal disclaimer in today's episode.
I'm trialling that and seeing how that kind of goes and
putting that into the notes and on the website and things like
that. But obviously by listening, just
just to shove it in there, by listening, you agree that you're
at the age of 18 and you understand that there is
explicit content. So I'm going to jump right into
(01:25):
housekeeping. Hopefully you've also noticed
that Spotify has taken one for the team and created chapters,
so you should be able to jump ahead to parts that interest
you. If you are not interested in
housekeeping, we have an episodecoming together for what in the
(01:46):
world is going on in Queensland right now and for the last few
years. And that is obviously not going
to be the headline. But basically that episode or
well what I'm doing is going over the crimes that have been
taking over the state and in particular the state's response
to these crimes, including the system, like the systemic issues
(02:07):
rather than the system. What are you talking about, Hun?
Yeah. So the systemic issues are
extreme, to put it lightly, obviously, if you've listened to
our episode on Luke Gilbert. So yeah, I've got a lot of
people giving me their stories and information and bits and
pieces that I'm putting togetherfor that episode.
(02:29):
It's quite content heavy, I'm not going to lie.
But I want to mention that tomorrow is the 10th of
September, which is the date forthe inquest for Aaron Clear.
So I want to put that reminder out there into the universe and
send all of my love and my good energy to Aaron's family.
In particular, I want to mentionhis sister Cassandra.
(02:51):
I've been working pretty closelywith her for quite some time,
and often we don't get, well, actually too often we don't get
the answers we want in an inquest.
And not just the answers we want, the answers we need and
deserve at an inquest. But that's literally why I work
so hard at what I do. I don't just disappear off the
(03:12):
face of the earth like the system does once they've
categorized things like this. So yeah, please send all your
love to Aaron's loved ones, His family's, and if you're in the
area, feel free to go and support.
But don't forget they have a Facebook page and a TikTok page,
which are both called Where is Aaron Clear?
(03:32):
So you can follow both of those closely too.
And they do have a GoFundMe, as I believe the funds on the
GoFundMe are to help them investigate further and, you
know, get the answers that they need and deserve.
So that's that. I have to acknowledge that I've
been a little bit slow on the replies this last week, as
(03:53):
you'll know if you've actually listened from the start.
I do have a disability along with a few health conditions to
complement that and often that and the frequent medication.
I take a lot of medication everyday, but some days that
really takes a lot out of me. So it just depends what I'm
(04:13):
doing. Some days I have a bit of a hard
time and I've just been adjusting medication for one of
my health conditions. So I do apologize that I'm a
little bit slow on the replies this last sort of seven to 10
days. I am doing my best to get up to
date with everyone and I will, but please just continue to be
(04:34):
patient and thank you for being so patient.
And lastly for housekeeping merchandise, I have pre-orders
open right now for merchandise which I believe off the top of
my head is the exhuming the truth T-shirts in either black
or grey. So that just has Exhuming the
truth on the front left, front left.
(04:55):
Yep, front left, top, left, front.
I don't know how to describe that.
There's a logo on the top left of the T-shirt, and on the back
is the eye logo, which is large.Yeah.
So that's either black or grey. And then the same in the
hoodies. And then the caps in black or
(05:16):
grey, which have exhuming the truth and the eye symbol slash
logo on them. So I did not do that justice at
all, and I'm well aware of that.But let's just move on and get
right into today's episode. Welcome to Into the Wilderness,
fugitive Father Tom Phillips. This is such a controversial
(05:40):
story and for a number of reasons, but before I even get
started I have to say the way that the world works is just so
bizarre. I often discuss cases that I'm
covering with my mum because she's my best friend.
So I'm always like, oh, I'm doing this at the moment.
And we chat. And literally, I am not even
(06:03):
kidding. A week maximum two weeks ago, we
were sitting on the couch and I was like talking about this case
that has like, no coverage. I'm like, how bad is that?
And mom's like, remember that guy in New Zealand who took off
with these kids and like, never to be seen since, like, whatever
happened to him? Like, why is no one covering
that? And I was like, yeah, bizarre.
Like, that's so weird that, you know, he's taken off into, quote
(06:27):
UN quote, the wilderness. And you know, there's been no
follow up next minute. This is blowing up my phone the
day I believe it was the 8th that he was I suppose found
slash captured slash shot. Now, the controversy around this
(06:50):
is it is about the story itself.And I have to acknowledge that
we do not know the full picture in by any means.
It's really hard when you are sort of brought up and
conditioned to believe everything that the media feeds
(07:10):
you, slash everything that the police feed you.
It's just not always the case. And somewhere outside of those
two separate stories lies the truth.
And it's one of those things that we may not ever know.
So you do have to come to terms with that, you know, in one way
(07:31):
or another rather. And I have to just disclaim that
because I can't present to you what I don't know.
But today I am going to present to you this story from a number
of perspectives, including the perspectives of the people on
the Internet, because I had posted the conclusion we could
(07:55):
say to this case, I suppose, when Tom was shot by the New
Zealand police, literally just saying, hey, remember this
story, it you know, it's just come to an end.
They've just shot him and located one child at the time.
And then later, after I'd made the video, they recovered the
(08:18):
other two children alive and well.
And not like the comments were wild.
And obviously, the Internet is always full of conspiracy
theories. We have to also acknowledge
that. But take what you will, form
your own opinions, I suppose. Again, just acknowledge that
we're never going to know the full truth.
And this is, you know, three young lives that do deserve
(08:41):
privacy. So I'm not going to talk too
much about the kids. It's more so going to be about
the storyline of events that we do know and possible
perspectives. So I just wanted to get that out
there. So we have Tom Phillips, OK, a
New Zealand father, his sister Rosie RO, double ZI.
(09:02):
She did say at the end of August, before this all went
down, she didn't interview. And she said that when he did
first leave with the children, he did have legal custody of the
kids at the time. I'll go into that a bit later.
But as it stands, when he was inthe Bush, he had, well, when he
(09:25):
left to go into the Bush, he hadcustody.
And then when he was in the Bushor wilderness, the custody then
lay with a New Zealand organization called Oranga
Tamariki, which is the Ministry of Children.
So that is basically the state. So the state did have custody of
the children when he was missingand I'll explain that again when
(09:48):
we get up to that. People online, after quite a bit
of research, are saying that whoever has had to deal with
orangutan Mariki in New Zealand would have likely done what he
did. And I'm assuming that's because
they are not known to be fantastic.
Also, the people say online, butwhat do we know?
(10:10):
OK, so let me give you the factsas they stand.
There were two disappearances tobegin with.
So let's go to September 2021. So it's the 11th of September
2021, and Tom Phillips has his three children, OK, And they
(10:31):
disappear from an area in New Zealand and I don't know how to
say it. MAR OK, OPA, I'm not even going
to try and do it justice. But he has disappeared with his
three children from this area. Two days later, his Toyota Hilux
was found on a beach. And basically authorities were
(10:53):
thinking that there had been an accident.
They found the car. They haven't found the four.
And they're like freaking out. So they have launched an
operation to search for them. But come the 30th of September,
the family, well, by the family,I mean Tom and the three kids,
they return home unharmed, totally fine.
(11:15):
And because of that, and becauseof the search and rescue like
Mission, I suppose Tom Phillips was charged with wasting police
resources. OK, so that is September.
Now, the second disappearance occurred in December of that
year. So it's the 9th of December
2021, and Phillips again vanishes with the three kids.
(11:36):
And this is in the middle of this alleged custody dispute.
So come January, right? He's disappeared on the 9th of
December with the kids. He was set to appear in court in
January for like this family custody dispute and he did not.
Therefore an arrest warrant was issued for him.
(11:58):
Now this is where I am assuming,and that's exactly what I'm
doing, this could be false, but I am assuming that he had full
custody of the children. This court date was set for
January. He was obviously feeling uneasy
about it for whatever reason andhas taken off with the kids, but
because he didn't appear in January, the custody of the
children has gone to the state because he has essentially
(12:23):
disappeared with the kids. That could not be correct, but
that's what I can only assume from this information.
Now come the 9th of February 2022, he briefly contacts his
family just to say like, hey, it's me, I've got the kids,
we're all safe. And like just wanted to let you
(12:43):
know. So you went freaking out, but
I'm not going to tell you where we are.
I don't know by what means that communication was or whose phone
or whatever. Now there were early search and
media, you could say if it's in 2022 to 2023, the police
basically was super frustrated and had like no leads on this
(13:06):
and they were just assuming thatthe family might have received
outside assistance because they're like how the hell is
this guy still missing with these kids come the 8th of
December 2022 and the family actually offered $10,000 reward
and that was for any information.
It wasn't actually for Tom, it was just for any information to
(13:28):
help them. And then they're saying that
like when you research it, they're saying there was a first
confirmed sighting in August 2023.
So we jump ahead to the 3rd of August 2023 and it says, I
quote, a confirmed sighting of Phillips without the children in
a stolen Toyota Hilux occurs. There was no other information
(13:52):
there. But then September 2023, Tom
Phillips is then charged in connection with an armed bank
robbery, which again, I can't find anything else.
And again, he's being charged but they're not actually serving
him because they don't know where he is.
So then in late 2023, so it was the 14th of November 2023,
(14:16):
police released CCTV footage of Tom Phillips and one of the kids
and they were attempting to break into a store, which is
very sad to me because they are obviously desperate.
I haven't seen the footage myself, but that's what all of
the articles are telling me occurred.
So that's just what I'm giving you now.
(14:39):
The reward from here escalates because they're like, hey, we
know they're still alive. At least one of the kids with
him, we've seen them, you know, trying to break into a store.
Obviously they're trying to get supplies and what have you.
We need to up this reward. So on the 11th of June in 2024,
the police raised the award reward amount to $80,000.
(15:03):
And they're offering immunity toanyone who's helping him or the
kids or both. And this is when the kids
mother, who we refer to as cat, she appealed publicly basically
saying she wants her kids back. Then October 2024, there were
pig hunters who spotted Phillipswith all three kids hiking.
(15:25):
And this was the first confirmedlike full family sighting since
2021. So this is the first time that
like, police and media are like,OK, we have the whole family
still together here. So then they have for some
reason between October and Marchdone not much.
And then come March 2025. So this year the police decided
(15:49):
to launch a fresh search in likethe wilderness and that got a
lot of community attention but of course did not result in
anything so they were frustrated.
Then late August just gone, there was footage from a break
in. So the police released a CCTV of
(16:11):
Tom Phillips and one child breaking into the same store
that they allegedly targeted in 2023.
And they hoped that by releasingthis footage that new leads
would come through and be like, yeah, like I can help you with
XYZ or give you a lead to find out where they are or where they
went. Now, the 8th of September, which
is earlier this week, in the early hours, Tom Phillips and
(16:34):
one of the kids, which actually I believe to be the oldest
daughter. So Tom and the daughter attempt
a burglary at a rural supply store.
And from here, obviously police are notified and they have
deployed Rd. Spikes and Tom Phillips fires a
(16:54):
gun on an arriving officer and it hit him in the head which
critically injured him. And a second officer then
arrives on scene and fatally shoots Tom Phillips.
So obviously from here, there was the one child that was with
her father, and that child actually helped police to locate
(17:16):
the younger two siblings. Basically was like, OK, I'll
show you where they are. So by the evening of the 8th,
all three kids aged roughly 910 and 12, were found safe in dense
bushland. And they're saying it was at
like a campsite set up with firearms.
(17:36):
So authorities then confirmed that the kids were physically OK
and they were being cared for byorangutan Mariki, which is
obviously not what Tom wanted and was trying to avoid for
whatever his reason may be. And the medical team obviously
there assisting the children andthey were investigating into the
incident and how Tom Phillips had survived so long.
(18:00):
And that is, I assume, going to continue quite a while because
that's nearly four years of missing in the wilderness in New
Zealand. It blows my mind every time I
say it out loud now when I was trying to find like initial
information and like by that I mean the beginning of this whole
(18:20):
thing. So 20/21 it was really hard to
find like I'm not going to lie. And I noticed that that was
because of two reasons. And those were the limited media
coverage. They were kind of only telling
you what they wanted to tell you.
Like the initial 2021 disappearances were really
(18:40):
briefly covered when the family reappeared.
So that first little one. But because they resurfaced and
then disappeared again, these media outlets obviously shifted
their focus. And, you know, the story then
got more attention when sightings were like, frequent.
(19:01):
And that kind of helped them dramatise their story, I
suppose. And the second reason is the
evolving focus of reporting. So, like, articles and reporting
that do mention 2021 often focuson like, the fact that he just
took off. Like, that's basically all like
you read. It's like, oh, yeah, in 2021, he
(19:23):
took his kids and like, took offinto the wilderness.
That's basically it. There's not really any, like,
perspective on that at all. The kids mother cat, she
consistently described her ex partners actions as using their
kids as quote UN quote, pawns inhis game.
(19:44):
And she accused him of putting their safety at risk, which, I
mean, fair. Yeah.
It's just such a wild story. But in late 2024, she reported
that she saw Tom at a Bunnings. So she obviously alerted
authorities then. That's just so random.
(20:05):
What was that? Sorry, that was an e-mail.
And I thought I silenced everything and I have no idea
what device that just came from.Anyway, by mid 2025, Kat and her
family decided like, let's do a new public appeal for Tom to
bring the kids home. And she, yeah, basically was
(20:32):
like, I love you so much, I missyou, come home, blah, blah,
blah. Also knowing her kids are in the
wilderness, no TV, so just wild to me.
But anyway, now circulating online, it takes a bit of a dig.
I did a big dig to get any of this information.
But there was an opinion piece. And in that opinion piece, it
(20:54):
was suggested that Cat had raised concerns with the system
and had had potential warning signs of abuse, but those
concerns were actually dismissedby authorities.
So whether they're true or not, a whole other thing, which leads
me into speculation and online theories because I want to touch
on those because why not? And that's what everyone's
(21:16):
saying online. So you can make up your own
mind. But before I go into it, like no
reputable sources confirm anything we're about to tell
you. It's literally just people
online. There are people saying that the
mum is abusing substances and that is why he had custody.
(21:38):
There's Reddit threads that reflect that quote UN quote from
Reddit. The mother of the kids had slash
has issues with drug use in brackets methamphetamine which
is why she lost custody originally.
Again, that is just by a user onReddit.
Then we have quote on quote. The mother has severe addiction
issues and other problems. He had to take extreme measures
(22:01):
to keep his kids safe. Anyway, like I said, these are
anonymous. Well not anonymous that they're
just not from a reputable sourceand they're more so community
opinions I guess and not verified.
And they obviously lack evidenceand should be treated with
caution. However, you know, there is a
lot to be said with things that circulate online.
(22:26):
So the idea of Cat suffering with substance abuse problems
does stem from obviously speculation online.
And yeah, what is backed by credible sources is that Cat
obviously kept appealing to haveher children back.
(22:48):
And if that is, that could be actually her feelings on this or
it could also be like a bit of amedia push.
We just don't know. It's just very possible the
media haven't shown the full story because they often don't.
But here's why with this case inparticular, it's possible that
they haven't shown the full story.
(23:10):
So I did have to do a little bitof research for US family on the
family court system in New Zealand because I'm not 100%
familiar with it. But I did find that the New
Zealand Family Court operates under strict privacy rules.
So this means that like details about custody disputes and
parenting orders and social services and stuff are
(23:32):
suppressed usually, obviously toprotect the kids.
And obviously a lot of people online are saying the same
thing. The family court is just very
tough there. Some legal experts have argued
that this like shroud of secrecycan prevent the public from
seeing the full context of high profile cases like this, which
(23:54):
leaves basically just the media only able to publish tiny parts
of the story. And as we all know, context is
very important, the narrative framing Even.
So, like a lot of the media coverage, frames Tom as a
fugitive father or a Bushman survivalist.
And this type of framing is likecreating drama and keeping the
(24:15):
readers engaged. But it's oversimplifying the
real reasons behind the custody disputes and downplaying the
systemic failures as well. And one way or another, like
whoever's side you're on, it doesn't matter because either
way, there is systemic failures,no matter what angle you look at
it from. Yeah.
(24:36):
So like speculation versus fact,like the rumours, such as the
claims of substance abuse, they can spread faster than verified
details. So that's something to keep in
mind. Media can't report suppressed
court details. And so basically that just
leaves a gap for speculation to fill, which is what happens
(24:56):
online. And people feel they're not
hearing the full truth and gaps get filled and things filter on.
So there's a lot, there's a lot to consider, which leads me to
our fave police and state narrative.
The police control a lot of public messaging.
Let's be honest. Like when Phillips went missing
the second time, December 21, the police initially said that
(25:17):
they weren't searching because, and I quote, he told his family
he was going Bush. And I don't know what else that
does aside from downplay how serious the situation could have
been. But later when sightings
happened and the rewards were offered by the family, that
first reward of $10,000, the media then amplified the police
(25:38):
statements rather than digging deeper into why systemic
responses seem slow. Another huge one is the kids
privacy. Like I said, this is the most
sensitive part, the welfare of the kids and it's heavily
protected. It needs to be.
And that's like the moral basis of this story.
Even when they were found safe, like the details about the
(25:59):
health and education and all of that sort of stuff is going to
be tried, going to be tried. I don't, I don't know how to
talk. They're going to try and keep
that minimal is what I'm trying to say, because that protection
is super important, but it also means that the public only get
half the picture. And again, speculation jumps in.
So yes, it's very likely that the media narrative is
(26:21):
incomplete because of legal restrictions, editorial framing,
police and media alliance, kids privacy protections.
Tom's perspective is one that iskind of only going to be based
off inference until I suppose the kids are older and they have
the chance to speak for themselves and speak freely as
(26:41):
adults. But it's one that I want to chat
about. So let's talk about Tom's
perspective. So basically, from all of the
research I've done, Tom really kind of framed himself as a
father protecting his kids from a system or a situation that he
didn't trust. He lived off the grid for nearly
four years with these kids and obviously taught the kids
(27:03):
survivalist skills. And obviously, yeah, it's just
wild to think about. But he appears to have avoided
authorities deliberately, obviously, and suggesting
mistrust or fear of losing theirchildren.
And I think whatever way you look at it, it's so sad.
Like I was saying to my mum earlier, if you're looking at it
like he's done the wrong thing, he's in the wrong and he should
(27:24):
not have custody of these kids by any means.
It's so sad that he did this anddid it so fiercely.
But if he did do this, because he can't trust the system, he
can't trust the police or the courts, and he knows that his
(27:45):
children are not safe with theirother parent.
He has gone above and beyond what any parent has ever done,
and he has gone to this extremist, almost apocalyptic
level of survival. And also either way, no matter
(28:06):
the truth behind his story and the children's story,
traumatizing for these children,I like, I can't even begin to
find the words to explain how traumatic this would have been
for the children. Not going to school, not living
a normal life, like not having access to, you know, a toilet, a
(28:30):
shower, a kitchen, a warm bed atnight, pillows and blankets and
toys and friends and family and all of these really important
things for kids. It's so traumatizing.
And it's almost, yeah, it's a stolen childhood in my eyes.
And either way, I am super sad. You know, I do feel like on one,
(28:57):
you know, if, if I knew the truth, I could give you my
honest opinion. But my only honest opinion is no
matter what angle you look at this from, these children have
been the result of a systemic failure because their own dad
was. So no matter what he's done, he
was so terrified to have his children in the care of the
(29:23):
state or the other parent that he felt that this was the only
way forward. And that is sad.
And like, imagine living this like, yeah, post apocalyptic
kind of lifestyle where you needto break into like, the means of
living to support your children.Like, it's just awful.
(29:45):
And then if you look at it from the mum's perspective, actually
we'll do that in a minute. We're going to do that.
Yeah, let's do that. So from Kat's perspective, like
she says, you know, let's just jump ship here and pretend we're
her. And she's saying Thomas using
our kids as pawns in his game. He's selfie.
She's put them at risk. She's made public emotional
(30:08):
pleas, letters, videos saying she loves them, she misses them,
she wants them. Some commentators argue that she
was let down by the family courtsystem when she raised concerns.
So she could also be a victim ofsystemic failure here.
And this could be true. This could be a Mama who is
without her kids and desperatelywants them home and the system
(30:30):
has failed her and allowed this horrible, evil man, their
father, to do this. Like it.
Brace my heart. Like at the end of the day, the
kids are the product of the system because no matter what
way you look at it, like they'rethe ones who will suffer the
(30:51):
consequences. And yes, Tom died and you know,
that's sad, but the kids are going to suffer these
consequences. And when you look at it from a
police and state perspective, like initially they didn't
search during the second disappearance because they said,
oh, he's just, you know, gone Bush.
He told his family he's gone Bush.
(31:12):
And then they all of a sudden started treating him as a
fugitive, one of the burglary and firearms offences and
failure to appear in court. And then they're, you know,
making these extravagant rewardsfor $80,000.
And then once he has been shot and killed by one of their own,
they've been said that Tom was dangerous and irresponsible and
not heroic. So from their perspective,
(31:34):
they're just like, this is just a drop kick guy who's used our
resources, wasting our time. And yeah, that's basically their
perspective. And like, I don't even want to
give the media too much of my attention, but they're early
framing this. Yeah, like, amplifying police
releases rather than actually investigating deeper into the
(31:54):
family court background. And like, what the hell has gone
wrong here for something so extreme to happen nearly four
years, guys, like, what the hell?
They focus heavily on the spectacle of like off grid
family. Like they're off grid.
No, like off grid is when you still have a freaking house and
you're living in the house and like, you still got running
(32:15):
water, but you're just off grid.Like you, you're just not
connected like to the Internet. And like, you know, you have
solar panels and it runs your electricity.
Not in the fucking wilderness inNew Zealand, in the freezing
cold, hiding out for nearly fouryears and having to break and
enter to steal things to survive.
(32:36):
Like far out. Then the public perspective like
this is the most divided and controversial one.
There's some that are sympathetic to Tom and frame him
as like a hero or a rescuer who like saved the kids from this
unfit mother. Some of them see him as exposing
(32:57):
flaws in the system or a father who's willing to do whatever it
takes to protect his children. And like, both of these could be
true. But others are critical of Tom,
which could also be true. In saying that he's selfish, he
endangered the Children's Health, safety and education.
And let me just say, whether he wanted to or not, he still did
that. They accused him of controlling
behaviour and removing the kids from their mother and wider
(33:18):
family. So like, either of these could
very well be true. The wild, wild, wild rumors that
I've read online have like a darker narrative circulating
that say that, oh, he might havefathered a new baby.
And then other people are saying, yeah, he did with one of
the kids and like all this wild crap.
(33:39):
And I just want to say there's no verified evidence of this
right now. So, like, please take this as
you know, this is speculation online.
Literally, that's what it is. But the case of Tom Phillips and
his kids resist any simple narrative by any means.
And on one side there's like this public perception that
(34:00):
paints him as a vigilante fatherwho rescued his children from an
unstable home. And on the other, it's like a
far darker interpretation, one that sees him not as a protector
but as a man who's like isolation, his secrecy and his
behaviour or alleged behaviour such as rumours of fathering a
(34:21):
child with his oldest daughter like while point to exploitation
and harm rather than care. But from a criminological
perspective, this divergent likereflects 2 theories at play.
The social learning theory suggests that people justify or
even normalize behaviours through cultural narratives.
(34:44):
Tom becomes kind of like this folk hero fighting a failed
system in a way, particularly inrural communities that are more
distrustful of authorities. And at the same time, control
theory reminds us that secrecy and things like withdrawal from
society and the breakdown of social bonds are often
(35:05):
precursors to deviant or abusivebehaviour.
Psychologically, we can also consider cognitive dissonance.
Supporters of Tom might downplaypotential harms to preserve this
narrative that they have, like where he's a saviour, but the
(35:25):
truth, however rarely restfully with either extreme.
Let's be honest, the truth is lying on the outside of both of
those. The lived experiences of the
kids and their safety and well-being are central, but
they're being overshadowed by all of this speculation about
the parents roles and who's right and who's wrong.
(35:47):
Ultimately, like I have to say this case, like it highlights
how public perception is shaped less by facts and more by the
stories that people need to believe, whether about like, a
heroic father or a dangerous abductor.
The reality may well lie somewhere outside of these
(36:10):
polarized perspectives, where systemic failures and
interpersonal trauma and individual choices intersect in
criminology and psychology. Such like, complex.
This is like I just this story. I'm sorry.
It just gets me. It's so complex.
And yeah, complexity is often the rule rather than the
(36:33):
exception in cases like these, if that makes sense.
I also have to say, I have my friend here a couple of weeks
ago, I think I told you guys, and she was telling me that the
New Zealand police don't carry guns.
So I'm Googling right now. New Zealand police officers
(36:56):
carry guns Because I do wonder if they were, like, told to take
weapons. No, New Zealand police officers
do not carry guns on routine paroles.
Firearms are kept in locked boxes in their vehicles.
There we are. So that the officers would have
had to unlock them from their vehicles.
So that makes sense. Yeah, because I was trying to
(37:17):
put two and two together. I'm like, if they don't carry
them anyway, I don't have A1 sided opinion on this.
Like my opinion's super complex,but I I stand strong on the fact
that no matter what, the system has let these kids down.
(37:37):
Like how on earth? How on earth does someone with
three children exist for nearly four years in the bloody
wilderness? Like what?
Where have we gone? So wrong.
Do we need to go back and look specifically at the Family
(37:58):
court? Like I'm just so disappointed
and upset for these kids and I do hope that they get the best
treatment possible. I know that they're now in the
very care of who the father did not want them in the care of,
and that is the Ministry of Children, which does not seem to
(38:21):
have lovely reviews. It seems to be a lot like the
DCP, the Department of Child Protection in Australia.
So I do hope that the three kidsare also kept together and not
separated. That's another thing.
But yeah, I'm going to end it there and allow you guys to have
(38:41):
your own discussion, make up your own mind.
I've presented to you the facts as I could find them.
It's just an insane story. But thank you so much for being
here and listening to me ramble on.
Yeah, What else have I got to add for you?
(39:01):
Nothing, I don't think so. I'm going to love and leave you
and go and write up another episode for you.
So thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for joining us on thisnew episode.
I hope you have enjoyed it. Here you can subscribe to stay
up to date across all platforms,including Instagram, Facebook,
(39:23):
TikTok and YouTube. You can help us out by
subscribing to our paid episodes, which are on Spotify,
or by making a donation to allowus to help more families.
You can also join in on the casediscussions and make case
requests in our Facebook group, which you can find the link to
in our podcast notes. But as always, stay curious,
(39:44):
stay informed, and until next time, trust your instincts and
keep seeking the truth.
Welcome to Exhuming the Truth, the podcast where we delve into
the mysterious worlds of cold cases, missing persons, true
crime, and the fascinating science that is forensics.
I'm forensic scientist and criminologist Asha Walther, and
I am so thrilled to have you with me on this journey as we
dance in the shadows of the world of crime, shining a light
(00:38):
on scientific discovery while becoming another voice for those
who need it most. So grab a drink and get
comfortable while we jump into this episode together.
Hey guys, Happy Tuesday or whatever day it is that you're
listening to this. It is Tuesday, the 9th of
September as I'm recording, and I hope you noticed that I did
(01:03):
not include the verbal disclaimer in today's episode.
I'm trialling that and seeing how that kind of goes and
putting that into the notes and on the website and things like
that. But obviously by listening, just
just to shove it in there, by listening, you agree that you're
at the age of 18 and you understand that there is
explicit content. So I'm going to jump right into
(01:25):
housekeeping. Hopefully you've also noticed
that Spotify has taken one for the team and created chapters,
so you should be able to jump ahead to parts that interest
you. If you are not interested in
housekeeping, we have an episodecoming together for what in the
(01:46):
world is going on in Queensland right now and for the last few
years. And that is obviously not going
to be the headline. But basically that episode or
well what I'm doing is going over the crimes that have been
taking over the state and in particular the state's response
to these crimes, including the system, like the systemic issues
(02:07):
rather than the system. What are you talking about, Hun?
Yeah. So the systemic issues are
extreme, to put it lightly, obviously, if you've listened to
our episode on Luke Gilbert. So yeah, I've got a lot of
people giving me their stories and information and bits and
pieces that I'm putting togetherfor that episode.
(02:29):
It's quite content heavy, I'm not going to lie.
But I want to mention that tomorrow is the 10th of
September, which is the date forthe inquest for Aaron Clear.
So I want to put that reminder out there into the universe and
send all of my love and my good energy to Aaron's family.
In particular, I want to mentionhis sister Cassandra.
(02:51):
I've been working pretty closelywith her for quite some time,
and often we don't get, well, actually too often we don't get
the answers we want in an inquest.
And not just the answers we want, the answers we need and
deserve at an inquest. But that's literally why I work
so hard at what I do. I don't just disappear off the
(03:12):
face of the earth like the system does once they've
categorized things like this. So yeah, please send all your
love to Aaron's loved ones, His family's, and if you're in the
area, feel free to go and support.
But don't forget they have a Facebook page and a TikTok page,
which are both called Where is Aaron Clear?
(03:32):
So you can follow both of those closely too.
And they do have a GoFundMe, as I believe the funds on the
GoFundMe are to help them investigate further and, you
know, get the answers that they need and deserve.
So that's that. I have to acknowledge that I've
been a little bit slow on the replies this last week, as
(03:53):
you'll know if you've actually listened from the start.
I do have a disability along with a few health conditions to
complement that and often that and the frequent medication.
I take a lot of medication everyday, but some days that
really takes a lot out of me. So it just depends what I'm
(04:13):
doing. Some days I have a bit of a hard
time and I've just been adjusting medication for one of
my health conditions. So I do apologize that I'm a
little bit slow on the replies this last sort of seven to 10
days. I am doing my best to get up to
date with everyone and I will, but please just continue to be
(04:34):
patient and thank you for being so patient.
And lastly for housekeeping merchandise, I have pre-orders
open right now for merchandise which I believe off the top of
my head is the exhuming the truth T-shirts in either black
or grey. So that just has Exhuming the
truth on the front left, front left.
(04:55):
Yep, front left, top, left, front.
I don't know how to describe that.
There's a logo on the top left of the T-shirt, and on the back
is the eye logo, which is large.Yeah.
So that's either black or grey. And then the same in the
hoodies. And then the caps in black or
(05:16):
grey, which have exhuming the truth and the eye symbol slash
logo on them. So I did not do that justice at
all, and I'm well aware of that.But let's just move on and get
right into today's episode. Welcome to Into the Wilderness,
fugitive Father Tom Phillips. This is such a controversial
(05:40):
story and for a number of reasons, but before I even get
started I have to say the way that the world works is just so
bizarre. I often discuss cases that I'm
covering with my mum because she's my best friend.
So I'm always like, oh, I'm doing this at the moment.
And we chat. And literally, I am not even
(06:03):
kidding. A week maximum two weeks ago, we
were sitting on the couch and I was like talking about this case
that has like, no coverage. I'm like, how bad is that?
And mom's like, remember that guy in New Zealand who took off
with these kids and like, never to be seen since, like, whatever
happened to him? Like, why is no one covering
that? And I was like, yeah, bizarre.
Like, that's so weird that, you know, he's taken off into, quote
(06:27):
UN quote, the wilderness. And you know, there's been no
follow up next minute. This is blowing up my phone the
day I believe it was the 8th that he was I suppose found
slash captured slash shot. Now, the controversy around this
(06:50):
is it is about the story itself.And I have to acknowledge that
we do not know the full picture in by any means.
It's really hard when you are sort of brought up and
conditioned to believe everything that the media feeds
(07:10):
you, slash everything that the police feed you.
It's just not always the case. And somewhere outside of those
two separate stories lies the truth.
And it's one of those things that we may not ever know.
So you do have to come to terms with that, you know, in one way
(07:31):
or another rather. And I have to just disclaim that
because I can't present to you what I don't know.
But today I am going to present to you this story from a number
of perspectives, including the perspectives of the people on
the Internet, because I had posted the conclusion we could
(07:55):
say to this case, I suppose, when Tom was shot by the New
Zealand police, literally just saying, hey, remember this
story, it you know, it's just come to an end.
They've just shot him and located one child at the time.
And then later, after I'd made the video, they recovered the
(08:18):
other two children alive and well.
And not like the comments were wild.
And obviously, the Internet is always full of conspiracy
theories. We have to also acknowledge
that. But take what you will, form
your own opinions, I suppose. Again, just acknowledge that
we're never going to know the full truth.
And this is, you know, three young lives that do deserve
(08:41):
privacy. So I'm not going to talk too
much about the kids. It's more so going to be about
the storyline of events that we do know and possible
perspectives. So I just wanted to get that out
there. So we have Tom Phillips, OK, a
New Zealand father, his sister Rosie RO, double ZI.
(09:02):
She did say at the end of August, before this all went
down, she didn't interview. And she said that when he did
first leave with the children, he did have legal custody of the
kids at the time. I'll go into that a bit later.
But as it stands, when he was inthe Bush, he had, well, when he
(09:25):
left to go into the Bush, he hadcustody.
And then when he was in the Bushor wilderness, the custody then
lay with a New Zealand organization called Oranga
Tamariki, which is the Ministry of Children.
So that is basically the state. So the state did have custody of
the children when he was missingand I'll explain that again when
(09:48):
we get up to that. People online, after quite a bit
of research, are saying that whoever has had to deal with
orangutan Mariki in New Zealand would have likely done what he
did. And I'm assuming that's because
they are not known to be fantastic.
Also, the people say online, butwhat do we know?
(10:10):
OK, so let me give you the factsas they stand.
There were two disappearances tobegin with.
So let's go to September 2021. So it's the 11th of September
2021, and Tom Phillips has his three children, OK, And they
(10:31):
disappear from an area in New Zealand and I don't know how to
say it. MAR OK, OPA, I'm not even going
to try and do it justice. But he has disappeared with his
three children from this area. Two days later, his Toyota Hilux
was found on a beach. And basically authorities were
(10:53):
thinking that there had been an accident.
They found the car. They haven't found the four.
And they're like freaking out. So they have launched an
operation to search for them. But come the 30th of September,
the family, well, by the family,I mean Tom and the three kids,
they return home unharmed, totally fine.
(11:15):
And because of that, and becauseof the search and rescue like
Mission, I suppose Tom Phillips was charged with wasting police
resources. OK, so that is September.
Now, the second disappearance occurred in December of that
year. So it's the 9th of December
2021, and Phillips again vanishes with the three kids.
(11:36):
And this is in the middle of this alleged custody dispute.
So come January, right? He's disappeared on the 9th of
December with the kids. He was set to appear in court in
January for like this family custody dispute and he did not.
Therefore an arrest warrant was issued for him.
(11:58):
Now this is where I am assuming,and that's exactly what I'm
doing, this could be false, but I am assuming that he had full
custody of the children. This court date was set for
January. He was obviously feeling uneasy
about it for whatever reason andhas taken off with the kids, but
because he didn't appear in January, the custody of the
children has gone to the state because he has essentially
(12:23):
disappeared with the kids. That could not be correct, but
that's what I can only assume from this information.
Now come the 9th of February 2022, he briefly contacts his
family just to say like, hey, it's me, I've got the kids,
we're all safe. And like just wanted to let you
(12:43):
know. So you went freaking out, but
I'm not going to tell you where we are.
I don't know by what means that communication was or whose phone
or whatever. Now there were early search and
media, you could say if it's in 2022 to 2023, the police
basically was super frustrated and had like no leads on this
(13:06):
and they were just assuming thatthe family might have received
outside assistance because they're like how the hell is
this guy still missing with these kids come the 8th of
December 2022 and the family actually offered $10,000 reward
and that was for any information.
It wasn't actually for Tom, it was just for any information to
(13:28):
help them. And then they're saying that
like when you research it, they're saying there was a first
confirmed sighting in August 2023.
So we jump ahead to the 3rd of August 2023 and it says, I
quote, a confirmed sighting of Phillips without the children in
a stolen Toyota Hilux occurs. There was no other information
(13:52):
there. But then September 2023, Tom
Phillips is then charged in connection with an armed bank
robbery, which again, I can't find anything else.
And again, he's being charged but they're not actually serving
him because they don't know where he is.
So then in late 2023, so it was the 14th of November 2023,
(14:16):
police released CCTV footage of Tom Phillips and one of the kids
and they were attempting to break into a store, which is
very sad to me because they are obviously desperate.
I haven't seen the footage myself, but that's what all of
the articles are telling me occurred.
So that's just what I'm giving you now.
(14:39):
The reward from here escalates because they're like, hey, we
know they're still alive. At least one of the kids with
him, we've seen them, you know, trying to break into a store.
Obviously they're trying to get supplies and what have you.
We need to up this reward. So on the 11th of June in 2024,
the police raised the award reward amount to $80,000.
(15:03):
And they're offering immunity toanyone who's helping him or the
kids or both. And this is when the kids
mother, who we refer to as cat, she appealed publicly basically
saying she wants her kids back. Then October 2024, there were
pig hunters who spotted Phillipswith all three kids hiking.
(15:25):
And this was the first confirmedlike full family sighting since
2021. So this is the first time that
like, police and media are like,OK, we have the whole family
still together here. So then they have for some
reason between October and Marchdone not much.
And then come March 2025. So this year the police decided
(15:49):
to launch a fresh search in likethe wilderness and that got a
lot of community attention but of course did not result in
anything so they were frustrated.
Then late August just gone, there was footage from a break
in. So the police released a CCTV of
(16:11):
Tom Phillips and one child breaking into the same store
that they allegedly targeted in 2023.
And they hoped that by releasingthis footage that new leads
would come through and be like, yeah, like I can help you with
XYZ or give you a lead to find out where they are or where they
went. Now, the 8th of September, which
is earlier this week, in the early hours, Tom Phillips and
(16:34):
one of the kids, which actually I believe to be the oldest
daughter. So Tom and the daughter attempt
a burglary at a rural supply store.
And from here, obviously police are notified and they have
deployed Rd. Spikes and Tom Phillips fires a
(16:54):
gun on an arriving officer and it hit him in the head which
critically injured him. And a second officer then
arrives on scene and fatally shoots Tom Phillips.
So obviously from here, there was the one child that was with
her father, and that child actually helped police to locate
(17:16):
the younger two siblings. Basically was like, OK, I'll
show you where they are. So by the evening of the 8th,
all three kids aged roughly 910 and 12, were found safe in dense
bushland. And they're saying it was at
like a campsite set up with firearms.
(17:36):
So authorities then confirmed that the kids were physically OK
and they were being cared for byorangutan Mariki, which is
obviously not what Tom wanted and was trying to avoid for
whatever his reason may be. And the medical team obviously
there assisting the children andthey were investigating into the
incident and how Tom Phillips had survived so long.
(18:00):
And that is, I assume, going to continue quite a while because
that's nearly four years of missing in the wilderness in New
Zealand. It blows my mind every time I
say it out loud now when I was trying to find like initial
information and like by that I mean the beginning of this whole
(18:20):
thing. So 20/21 it was really hard to
find like I'm not going to lie. And I noticed that that was
because of two reasons. And those were the limited media
coverage. They were kind of only telling
you what they wanted to tell you.
Like the initial 2021 disappearances were really
(18:40):
briefly covered when the family reappeared.
So that first little one. But because they resurfaced and
then disappeared again, these media outlets obviously shifted
their focus. And, you know, the story then
got more attention when sightings were like, frequent.
(19:01):
And that kind of helped them dramatise their story, I
suppose. And the second reason is the
evolving focus of reporting. So, like, articles and reporting
that do mention 2021 often focuson like, the fact that he just
took off. Like, that's basically all like
you read. It's like, oh, yeah, in 2021, he
(19:23):
took his kids and like, took offinto the wilderness.
That's basically it. There's not really any, like,
perspective on that at all. The kids mother cat, she
consistently described her ex partners actions as using their
kids as quote UN quote, pawns inhis game.
(19:44):
And she accused him of putting their safety at risk, which, I
mean, fair. Yeah.
It's just such a wild story. But in late 2024, she reported
that she saw Tom at a Bunnings. So she obviously alerted
authorities then. That's just so random.
(20:05):
What was that? Sorry, that was an e-mail.
And I thought I silenced everything and I have no idea
what device that just came from.Anyway, by mid 2025, Kat and her
family decided like, let's do a new public appeal for Tom to
bring the kids home. And she, yeah, basically was
(20:32):
like, I love you so much, I missyou, come home, blah, blah,
blah. Also knowing her kids are in the
wilderness, no TV, so just wild to me.
But anyway, now circulating online, it takes a bit of a dig.
I did a big dig to get any of this information.
But there was an opinion piece. And in that opinion piece, it
(20:54):
was suggested that Cat had raised concerns with the system
and had had potential warning signs of abuse, but those
concerns were actually dismissedby authorities.
So whether they're true or not, a whole other thing, which leads
me into speculation and online theories because I want to touch
on those because why not? And that's what everyone's
(21:16):
saying online. So you can make up your own
mind. But before I go into it, like no
reputable sources confirm anything we're about to tell
you. It's literally just people
online. There are people saying that the
mum is abusing substances and that is why he had custody.
(21:38):
There's Reddit threads that reflect that quote UN quote from
Reddit. The mother of the kids had slash
has issues with drug use in brackets methamphetamine which
is why she lost custody originally.
Again, that is just by a user onReddit.
Then we have quote on quote. The mother has severe addiction
issues and other problems. He had to take extreme measures
(22:01):
to keep his kids safe. Anyway, like I said, these are
anonymous. Well not anonymous that they're
just not from a reputable sourceand they're more so community
opinions I guess and not verified.
And they obviously lack evidenceand should be treated with
caution. However, you know, there is a
lot to be said with things that circulate online.
(22:26):
So the idea of Cat suffering with substance abuse problems
does stem from obviously speculation online.
And yeah, what is backed by credible sources is that Cat
obviously kept appealing to haveher children back.
(22:48):
And if that is, that could be actually her feelings on this or
it could also be like a bit of amedia push.
We just don't know. It's just very possible the
media haven't shown the full story because they often don't.
But here's why with this case inparticular, it's possible that
they haven't shown the full story.
(23:10):
So I did have to do a little bitof research for US family on the
family court system in New Zealand because I'm not 100%
familiar with it. But I did find that the New
Zealand Family Court operates under strict privacy rules.
So this means that like details about custody disputes and
parenting orders and social services and stuff are
(23:32):
suppressed usually, obviously toprotect the kids.
And obviously a lot of people online are saying the same
thing. The family court is just very
tough there. Some legal experts have argued
that this like shroud of secrecycan prevent the public from
seeing the full context of high profile cases like this, which
(23:54):
leaves basically just the media only able to publish tiny parts
of the story. And as we all know, context is
very important, the narrative framing Even.
So, like a lot of the media coverage, frames Tom as a
fugitive father or a Bushman survivalist.
And this type of framing is likecreating drama and keeping the
(24:15):
readers engaged. But it's oversimplifying the
real reasons behind the custody disputes and downplaying the
systemic failures as well. And one way or another, like
whoever's side you're on, it doesn't matter because either
way, there is systemic failures,no matter what angle you look at
it from. Yeah.
(24:36):
So like speculation versus fact,like the rumours, such as the
claims of substance abuse, they can spread faster than verified
details. So that's something to keep in
mind. Media can't report suppressed
court details. And so basically that just
leaves a gap for speculation to fill, which is what happens
(24:56):
online. And people feel they're not
hearing the full truth and gaps get filled and things filter on.
So there's a lot, there's a lot to consider, which leads me to
our fave police and state narrative.
The police control a lot of public messaging.
Let's be honest. Like when Phillips went missing
the second time, December 21, the police initially said that
(25:17):
they weren't searching because, and I quote, he told his family
he was going Bush. And I don't know what else that
does aside from downplay how serious the situation could have
been. But later when sightings
happened and the rewards were offered by the family, that
first reward of $10,000, the media then amplified the police
(25:38):
statements rather than digging deeper into why systemic
responses seem slow. Another huge one is the kids
privacy. Like I said, this is the most
sensitive part, the welfare of the kids and it's heavily
protected. It needs to be.
And that's like the moral basis of this story.
Even when they were found safe, like the details about the
(25:59):
health and education and all of that sort of stuff is going to
be tried, going to be tried. I don't, I don't know how to
talk. They're going to try and keep
that minimal is what I'm trying to say, because that protection
is super important, but it also means that the public only get
half the picture. And again, speculation jumps in.
So yes, it's very likely that the media narrative is
(26:21):
incomplete because of legal restrictions, editorial framing,
police and media alliance, kids privacy protections.
Tom's perspective is one that iskind of only going to be based
off inference until I suppose the kids are older and they have
the chance to speak for themselves and speak freely as
(26:41):
adults. But it's one that I want to chat
about. So let's talk about Tom's
perspective. So basically, from all of the
research I've done, Tom really kind of framed himself as a
father protecting his kids from a system or a situation that he
didn't trust. He lived off the grid for nearly
four years with these kids and obviously taught the kids
(27:03):
survivalist skills. And obviously, yeah, it's just
wild to think about. But he appears to have avoided
authorities deliberately, obviously, and suggesting
mistrust or fear of losing theirchildren.
And I think whatever way you look at it, it's so sad.
Like I was saying to my mum earlier, if you're looking at it
like he's done the wrong thing, he's in the wrong and he should
(27:24):
not have custody of these kids by any means.
It's so sad that he did this anddid it so fiercely.
But if he did do this, because he can't trust the system, he
can't trust the police or the courts, and he knows that his
(27:45):
children are not safe with theirother parent.
He has gone above and beyond what any parent has ever done,
and he has gone to this extremist, almost apocalyptic
level of survival. And also either way, no matter
(28:06):
the truth behind his story and the children's story,
traumatizing for these children,I like, I can't even begin to
find the words to explain how traumatic this would have been
for the children. Not going to school, not living
a normal life, like not having access to, you know, a toilet, a
(28:30):
shower, a kitchen, a warm bed atnight, pillows and blankets and
toys and friends and family and all of these really important
things for kids. It's so traumatizing.
And it's almost, yeah, it's a stolen childhood in my eyes.
And either way, I am super sad. You know, I do feel like on one,
(28:57):
you know, if, if I knew the truth, I could give you my
honest opinion. But my only honest opinion is no
matter what angle you look at this from, these children have
been the result of a systemic failure because their own dad
was. So no matter what he's done, he
was so terrified to have his children in the care of the
(29:23):
state or the other parent that he felt that this was the only
way forward. And that is sad.
And like, imagine living this like, yeah, post apocalyptic
kind of lifestyle where you needto break into like, the means of
living to support your children.Like, it's just awful.
(29:45):
And then if you look at it from the mum's perspective, actually
we'll do that in a minute. We're going to do that.
Yeah, let's do that. So from Kat's perspective, like
she says, you know, let's just jump ship here and pretend we're
her. And she's saying Thomas using
our kids as pawns in his game. He's selfie.
She's put them at risk. She's made public emotional
(30:08):
pleas, letters, videos saying she loves them, she misses them,
she wants them. Some commentators argue that she
was let down by the family courtsystem when she raised concerns.
So she could also be a victim ofsystemic failure here.
And this could be true. This could be a Mama who is
without her kids and desperatelywants them home and the system
(30:30):
has failed her and allowed this horrible, evil man, their
father, to do this. Like it.
Brace my heart. Like at the end of the day, the
kids are the product of the system because no matter what
way you look at it, like they'rethe ones who will suffer the
(30:51):
consequences. And yes, Tom died and you know,
that's sad, but the kids are going to suffer these
consequences. And when you look at it from a
police and state perspective, like initially they didn't
search during the second disappearance because they said,
oh, he's just, you know, gone Bush.
He told his family he's gone Bush.
(31:12):
And then they all of a sudden started treating him as a
fugitive, one of the burglary and firearms offences and
failure to appear in court. And then they're, you know,
making these extravagant rewardsfor $80,000.
And then once he has been shot and killed by one of their own,
they've been said that Tom was dangerous and irresponsible and
not heroic. So from their perspective,
(31:34):
they're just like, this is just a drop kick guy who's used our
resources, wasting our time. And yeah, that's basically their
perspective. And like, I don't even want to
give the media too much of my attention, but they're early
framing this. Yeah, like, amplifying police
releases rather than actually investigating deeper into the
(31:54):
family court background. And like, what the hell has gone
wrong here for something so extreme to happen nearly four
years, guys, like, what the hell?
They focus heavily on the spectacle of like off grid
family. Like they're off grid.
No, like off grid is when you still have a freaking house and
you're living in the house and like, you still got running
(32:15):
water, but you're just off grid.Like you, you're just not
connected like to the Internet. And like, you know, you have
solar panels and it runs your electricity.
Not in the fucking wilderness inNew Zealand, in the freezing
cold, hiding out for nearly fouryears and having to break and
enter to steal things to survive.
(32:36):
Like far out. Then the public perspective like
this is the most divided and controversial one.
There's some that are sympathetic to Tom and frame him
as like a hero or a rescuer who like saved the kids from this
unfit mother. Some of them see him as exposing
(32:57):
flaws in the system or a father who's willing to do whatever it
takes to protect his children. And like, both of these could be
true. But others are critical of Tom,
which could also be true. In saying that he's selfish, he
endangered the Children's Health, safety and education.
And let me just say, whether he wanted to or not, he still did
that. They accused him of controlling
behaviour and removing the kids from their mother and wider
(33:18):
family. So like, either of these could
very well be true. The wild, wild, wild rumors that
I've read online have like a darker narrative circulating
that say that, oh, he might havefathered a new baby.
And then other people are saying, yeah, he did with one of
the kids and like all this wild crap.
(33:39):
And I just want to say there's no verified evidence of this
right now. So, like, please take this as
you know, this is speculation online.
Literally, that's what it is. But the case of Tom Phillips and
his kids resist any simple narrative by any means.
And on one side there's like this public perception that
(34:00):
paints him as a vigilante fatherwho rescued his children from an
unstable home. And on the other, it's like a
far darker interpretation, one that sees him not as a protector
but as a man who's like isolation, his secrecy and his
behaviour or alleged behaviour such as rumours of fathering a
(34:21):
child with his oldest daughter like while point to exploitation
and harm rather than care. But from a criminological
perspective, this divergent likereflects 2 theories at play.
The social learning theory suggests that people justify or
even normalize behaviours through cultural narratives.
(34:44):
Tom becomes kind of like this folk hero fighting a failed
system in a way, particularly inrural communities that are more
distrustful of authorities. And at the same time, control
theory reminds us that secrecy and things like withdrawal from
society and the breakdown of social bonds are often
(35:05):
precursors to deviant or abusivebehaviour.
Psychologically, we can also consider cognitive dissonance.
Supporters of Tom might downplaypotential harms to preserve this
narrative that they have, like where he's a saviour, but the
(35:25):
truth, however rarely restfully with either extreme.
Let's be honest, the truth is lying on the outside of both of
those. The lived experiences of the
kids and their safety and well-being are central, but
they're being overshadowed by all of this speculation about
the parents roles and who's right and who's wrong.
(35:47):
Ultimately, like I have to say this case, like it highlights
how public perception is shaped less by facts and more by the
stories that people need to believe, whether about like, a
heroic father or a dangerous abductor.
The reality may well lie somewhere outside of these
(36:10):
polarized perspectives, where systemic failures and
interpersonal trauma and individual choices intersect in
criminology and psychology. Such like, complex.
This is like I just this story. I'm sorry.
It just gets me. It's so complex.
And yeah, complexity is often the rule rather than the
(36:33):
exception in cases like these, if that makes sense.
I also have to say, I have my friend here a couple of weeks
ago, I think I told you guys, and she was telling me that the
New Zealand police don't carry guns.
So I'm Googling right now. New Zealand police officers
(36:56):
carry guns Because I do wonder if they were, like, told to take
weapons. No, New Zealand police officers
do not carry guns on routine paroles.
Firearms are kept in locked boxes in their vehicles.
There we are. So that the officers would have
had to unlock them from their vehicles.
So that makes sense. Yeah, because I was trying to
(37:17):
put two and two together. I'm like, if they don't carry
them anyway, I don't have A1 sided opinion on this.
Like my opinion's super complex,but I I stand strong on the fact
that no matter what, the system has let these kids down.
(37:37):
Like how on earth? How on earth does someone with
three children exist for nearly four years in the bloody
wilderness? Like what?
Where have we gone? So wrong.
Do we need to go back and look specifically at the Family
(37:58):
court? Like I'm just so disappointed
and upset for these kids and I do hope that they get the best
treatment possible. I know that they're now in the
very care of who the father did not want them in the care of,
and that is the Ministry of Children, which does not seem to
(38:21):
have lovely reviews. It seems to be a lot like the
DCP, the Department of Child Protection in Australia.
So I do hope that the three kidsare also kept together and not
separated. That's another thing.
But yeah, I'm going to end it there and allow you guys to have
(38:41):
your own discussion, make up your own mind.
I've presented to you the facts as I could find them.
It's just an insane story. But thank you so much for being
here and listening to me ramble on.
Yeah, What else have I got to add for you?
(39:01):
Nothing, I don't think so. I'm going to love and leave you
and go and write up another episode for you.
So thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for joining us on thisnew episode.
I hope you have enjoyed it. Here you can subscribe to stay
up to date across all platforms,including Instagram, Facebook,
(39:23):
TikTok and YouTube. You can help us out by
subscribing to our paid episodes, which are on Spotify,
or by making a donation to allowus to help more families.
You can also join in on the casediscussions and make case
requests in our Facebook group, which you can find the link to
in our podcast notes. But as always, stay curious,
(39:44):
stay informed, and until next time, trust your instincts and
keep seeking the truth.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.