November 5, 2024 • 38 mins
Tune in to this CX Pulse Check as we uncover the vital role of communication in driving customer experience transformation. Tamsen Webster, founder of the Message Design Institute, sits down with Jeannie Walters to reveal how communication missteps often hinder change, drawing insights from Tamsen’s latest book. Through examples across industries, they highlight proactive messaging strategies that build trust, even amid challenges like credit card fraud, and explore how acknowledging customers’ past interactions can lead to a more connected and resilient experience.
The discussion also covers balancing communication frequency to avoid alert fatigue and illustrates how vague communications, like hidden banking fees, can frustrate customers. Discover how aligning employee and customer experiences—starting with frontline involvement—can make change implementation smoother and align with organizational values. Wrapping up with the power of a customer-centered culture in crisis management, this episode promises actionable insights to elevate your communication strategy in customer experience.
About Tamsen Webster, MA, MBA, Founder at the Message Design Institute:
Part message designer, part English-to-English translator, part magpie, Tamsen Webster helps leaders craft their case for large-scale change. In addition to her work in and for major organizations such as Harvard Medical School, Fidelity Investments, and Klaviyo, she’s a judge and mentor for the Harvard Innovation Labs, a professional advisor at the Martin Trust Center for MIT Entrepreneurship, and has spent over 10 years as the Idea Strategist for one of only nine legacy-level TEDx events in the world. She was named to the Thinkers50 Radar in 2022 and is the author of two books, Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible and Say What They Can't Unhear: The 9 Principles of Lasting Change. She lives in Boston with her husband, two sons, and two brindle Greyhounds, Hazel and Walnut.
Follow Tamsen on...
LinkedIn
X/Twitter
Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
Articles Mentioned:
- i2c Inc. and PYMNTS Survey Reveals Consumer Expectations for How Banks Respond to Credit Card Fraud (Business Wire)
- How The Vitamin Shoppe builds flexible customer experiences (CX Dive)
- How Businesses Can Cultivate a Customer-Centric Culture During Natural Disasters (socPub)
- Attributes—not skills—determine whether you ‘cut it’ or not (McKinsey & Company)
Want to ask a question? Visit askjeannie.vip to leave Jeannie a voicemail! (And don't forget to follow Jeannie on LinkedIn! www.linkedin.com/in/jeanniewalters/)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeannie Walters (00:10):
It's the Experience Action Podcast and
I'm your host, Jeannie Walters.
This is my favorite episode ofthe month because it's time for
CX Pulse Check, where me and aspecial co-host talk about
recent things in the news thatimpact customer experience and
what you can learn from it.
I am so excited about ourco-host this month.
(00:30):
It is the one and only TamsenWebster! Tamsen hello.
Tamsen Webster (00:35):
Hello! How are you, Jeannie?
Jeannie Walters (00:38):
I am great.
I'm so thrilled you're here andfor those very few people who
might not be aware of you andyour work, I would love for you
to share a little bit about whatyou do and who you are.
Tamsen Webster (00:50):
Sure, so I'm Tamsen Webster, literally the
only one.
That's kind of fun.
I am a message designer bytrade.
I am the founder of the MessageDesign Institute and I have
spent the bulk of my 25 plusyear career trying to answer the
question about how can weaccelerate the understanding and
(01:10):
adoption of new ideas.
Jeannie Walters (01:13):
Excellent.
And for those of you who havenot followed Tamsen forever,
like yours truly, then I wouldrecommend you follow on LinkedIn
.
You go and look up her workaround the Red Thread and you
have a new book.
Tamsen Webster (01:26):
I do there.
It is right here.
Look at that.
Look, it's already flagged.
Love that.
Jeannie Walters (01:31):
It is already flagged and I barely started it.
But this is one of myfavorites, "when two truths
fight, only one wins that.
I mean there there is a lot ofpower in this book because I
think everybody right now isreally trying to figure out
communication in a different way, trying to figure out how do we
(01:52):
make sure that we get ourmessage across and how do we do
it in a way that people canreally not only hear it but act
on it and remember it for a long, long time.
So, yeah, this is it's reallyreally exciting so
Tamsen Webster (02:05):
Well thanks, yeah, I, I am excited to get it
out into the world it.
It just really struck me in allthe years that I've been doing
this you know, branding,messaging, change communications
, organizational communicationshow often just change broke at
the at the communication part,and I've been ever curious about
(02:29):
that and kept kind of workingbackwards up the line.
So I started in marketing.
Maybe it's the brand, maybeit's this thing, maybe it's this
thing, maybe it's this thing.
And then fundamentally I got tothe core of where I think a lot
of it is, which is thatfundamentally to use a quote
that I quoted in my first bookfrom Agatha Christie that words
are only the outer clothing ofideas.
(02:50):
And I think a lot of times, forgood reasons, because of how
our brains are wired, we kind offorget why we actually believe
that a new initiative or achange or a practice that we're
trying to put in place for ourorganizations, why it is that we
really believe, like in our, inour core, why that it's the
(03:14):
right decision.
And the more I have found thatpeople have been able to
articulate that, the moresuccessful all the other things,
all the other forms ofcommunication and the
implementation as it shows up inexperience and how your clients
and customers experience thatit can have a transformational
effect on all of it.
Jeannie Walters (03:35):
Absolutely! And I think change management and
customer experience go hand inhand, because a lot of what
we're doing is trying to changebehavior and outcomes within the
organization in order todeliver that.
So I highly recommend that myCX leaders out there go check
out that book.
Tamsen Webster (03:54):
Thank you.
Jeannie Walters (03:55):
I also wanted to kind of dive into this idea
of how connected communicationis in general with customer
experience and with you knowI've done I don't know how many
customer journey mappingsessions at this point, and
every single one has acommunication breakdown, every
single one that we discover andthat we have to do something
(04:18):
about.
And so it's so connected and Ithink sometimes we overlook that
.
We think that experience isthis big idea or a big thing,
but it's really about all thesesmall moments and it's really
about delivering what youpromise and all of those things.
So, speaking of delivering whatthey promise, yes, we are in an
era with a lot of us receivingthose letters in the mail or
(04:43):
those phone calls telling usthere's been fraud on the bank
account or the credit card.
And this first article that wepulled up here is from Business
Wire and it's really about I'mgoing to read it and it's not
the it won't sound great onaudio I'm just going to say that
.
IQC Inc and Pymnts, which isP-Y-M-N-T-S survey, reveals
(05:09):
consumer expectations for howbanks respond to credit card
fraud, and what stood out to meabout this is that, first of all
, it's so prevalent 25% ofcustomers deal with some sort of
fraud on a regular basis, andthe fact that we all know that
experience and I think that partof what you know we want to do
(05:31):
as customer experience leadersis be as proactive as we can be-
but in some cases we have toreact, and we have to react
really quickly.
So I'm just curious, like thistalked about, you know how
important that proactivecommunication was and how, if we
don't deliver on that weactually erode trust pretty
quickly.
So any thoughts on this?
What did you see?
Tamsen Webster (05:54):
Oh gosh! So many .
Well I think that, so yes, theproactivity is this idea I think
it comes into play is where wehave this expectation as humans
that we're experts in our ownstuff and other people are
experts in theirs.
And how I think that mattershere is if I trust my bank to
manage my credit then I'm, I'messentially trusting that they
know more about how to keep thatmoney and how to keep those
(06:28):
transactions transactionsprotected than I do.
So that moment where, if I haveto go and say I think there's
fraud here and they haven't,they haven't adjusted for that
it does, as you say, it's a,it's an extraordinary violation
of that trust because it's likewhat am I even doing this?
Like what are you even doing Ifyou're not paying attention to
(06:49):
this?
You're supposed to be theexpert, and I think where this
can really go hand in hand andkind of broader thought that
came up for me as I was readingthis was, I think, a lot of
times in customer experience andlinking it back to that
communication piece, I thinksometimes we think so much about
the experience that we want tocreate for our customers and
(07:12):
clients that we forget toaccount for the experience
they've had to date.
Meaning there is, you know, soyou can say that you're
proactive or whatever, but likewhat's actually going to count
for them long-term is what theirrepeated experience, actual
experience is there, and so Ithink that that's both where
(07:36):
that desire for proactivitycomes from, but also, I think,
more of a where the practicaldiagnosis can come in from a
from a company standpoint, tosay, okay, well, how like?
What are they bringing to thetable?
Like, because their their theirexperience with fraud, their
experience with credit.
And all of this doesn't startusually at the moment they open
(07:57):
an account with us.
Right, there's all this otherstuff.
So how can we account for that,validate it and create a
different experience for thembased on what they're walking in
with?
Jeannie Walters (08:09):
And I think it's a really important point
that often when I'm working withdifferent organizations, we
kind of act like our customersare waking up inside of our
journey, right.
Tamsen Webster (08:22):
They're like oh, I didn't know you were here.
Jeannie Walters (08:25):
Yeah, oh great, I'm going to plan my whole day
around going to the bank and ofcourse, that's not reality.
We have to remember like theseare whole people who have had
whole lives and they, you know,they're trying to accomplish
something.
And I think one of the thingsthat this article got me
thinking about was just how easyit is to kind of become
(08:46):
complacent.
And one of the things that theytalked about was you know, how
do we not create alert fatiguefor customers where we're saying
like everything is a crisisbecause we want to be, we want
to communicate all the time withthem and be transparent, but at
the same time, not everythingis the same level of crisis and
(09:08):
not everything needs theirattention in that same way.
So I think your point about wetrust you to know what you're
doing, so reassurance, I thinkis really important and being
proactive about that reassurance.
But I think we also have toreally think strategically about
the what ifs.
What if we have fraud?
(09:29):
What if we have, you know, ourphones are down?
What if all of these things?
And you have that plan so youcan just kind of turn it on when
you need it instead ofscrambling.
Tamsen Webster (09:40):
Yes, I love that point that you're making,
Jeannie, about we think thatthey've just woken up in our
experience.
And when you started to talkabout the alerts, that that and
my brain went to two places atonce.
Not unusual.
Number one how the, thenewspaper apps and the and the
(10:00):
news apps violated that.
Right?
Like, I remember growing up,like watching broadcast TV, if
there was an interruption ofbreaking news, it was something
legit, big.
Right?
Like, and it was like I've gotto train, like I had like it
took me a long time to like losethe like trained in anxiety
response of like a breaking newsalert.
(10:21):
And then, and then the newsapps and they're, they all do it
, so we're not going to say it'sone or the other as just
absolutely, I think, violatedthat experience of now
everything is like breaking news.
We've got paella and you'relike dude, that is not breaking
news, like these two things arenot equivalent.
So the reason why I bring thatup is because, again, thinking
(10:45):
about the experience that yourclients or customers bring to
you, how does the experienceyou're creating?
It's not as you say, it's notin a vacuum, it's in a it's in
with everything else, whichmeans if they're already getting
too many silly alerts from fromemail, from social, from their
news apps, and then you are justpinging with like, hey, act
(11:06):
now, we've got a new APR rateand you're like y'all.
The thing is, it's about thisis one of those opportunities to
be different and valuable,meaning we're only actually
going to reach out to you whenit's absolutely necessary,
because that way you're actuallytraining in a good way, you're
(11:29):
conditioning your, your clientsand customers to pay attention
rather than to ignore you.
Jeannie Walters (11:37):
That's right, that's right.
Tamsen Webster (11:38):
And that, I think, is it's a product of
really looking at, like what isthe rest of the experience that
they're bringing in in any givenmoment.
Jeannie Walters (11:45):
Yes, and I'm going to put this out to the
universe just because it's arequest from me to all the banks
out there, because, as a smallbusiness owner with business
banking, I can't tell you howmany months I look at my
statement and there's somethingthat says something like
statement fee and I have to callto say what is this?
(12:06):
And they say, oh, that'sbecause you, it's a wire fee, or
it's this, or it's thatperfectly logical explanation.
Tamsen Webster (12:13):
Could you just define it?
Just put a glossary on the page.
Jeannie Walters (12:17):
Right! Why are you making me?
Why are you making me call yourpeople, who sometimes have to
look it up, or whatever?
It just like it drives mebananas, so I'm putting that out
to the universe.
Tamsen Webster (12:27):
I love that.
And that's a solvable problem,Jeannie.
As far as I'm concerned, toeither print it like you know,
hey, useful terms, it goes right, like right, in the kind of
like the grade back text, or, ifyou're getting an online
statement, anything is likehyperlinked to an explanation,
so you can like what is this.
Right! Exactly?
Or just call it what it is.
(12:50):
That's right, because when we don't call
things what they are, we can'thelp but doubt them.
Right?
Because, you know, one of thethings I talk about in the book
is that humans are wildlyattuned to intent, and trust is
a product of perceivedcapability.
How good are you at this thingthat you're saying that you can
help me with, or that you havecontracted with me to help me
with, and what is your intent?
And so the thing is.
(13:13):
So when a company like a bankis proactive, it's like that
builds that capability, like, ohmy gosh, you caught this before
I even did, and I think most ofus would rather it be flagged
as fraudulent and it isn't thenthe opposite happens right.
But then the second thinghappens with.
Intent is like when youwithhold information, or it
feels like you are withholdinginformation.
(13:33):
Well then, given again pastexperience to date with other
companies, other corporations,et cetera, other experiences of
people withholding informationmany of us have very negative
associations with when we haveto go find something out.
Jeannie Walters (13:48):
Right, that's right.
Tamsen Webster (13:49):
And so it's about getting ahead of those
assumptions, those beliefs,those that past experiences may
have created in your customers,even if they weren't with you.
This is how you have anopportunity to really set
yourself apart and to also livethe values that you say that
you're there for.
Jeannie Walters (14:10):
Amen, all right .
Okay, we've solved banking.
Tamsen Webster (14:13):
Great! Done.
Alright, next.
Jeannie Walters (14:16):
So now let's move into retail.
So this is, this is just.
It was really an example of arecent transformation around
kind of that omni-channelexperience that all
organizations want and havechallenges around.
And this is from CX Dive andthe headline is how the Vitamin
(14:37):
Shop Builds Flexible CustomerExperiences and it was really a
story about the upgrade to theirpoint of sale system and their
kind of digital landscape.
But what stood out to me aboutit was that when, one of the
(15:19):
things that they're very proudof that they wanted to talk
about was this idea that now ifsomebody is in the store and
they go up to the point of salesystem, their loyalty program
can be recognized and they canreally sign up for different
things there.
So, I think it's a greatexample of how so many
organizations are still kindofliving with legacy systems that
are siloed that aren't reallyabout the customer journey, that
are about like marketingprobably owns that loyalty
program right, and then thepoint of sale system, that's
probably operations or fieldoperations or what have you.
But, the part about this thatthey mentioned at the very end
of this article was really abouthow oh this took a lot of
(15:40):
cross-functional communicationand building on the actual
experience within and this issomething I see over and over
again is that we are sometimesso focused on this ideal project
of we're going to roll out thisomni-channel thing we literally
(16:01):
forget to include the peoplewho are on the front lines, who
will be the ones delivering it.
So I think that when we thinkabout big projects like this,
you know we've talked aboutchange management and we've
talked about these things.
It's really about also includingthese groups and these people
early enough in the process sothat they can have a say in.
Well, that doesn't make sense,right?
(16:22):
Like we might not be able to dothat.
So, you know, with your kind ofperspective, I'm just curious,
like what are thosecross-functional communication
gotchas?
Tamsen Webster (16:33):
Yes, I mean, oh Lordy, this is a huge topic,
Jeannie you know.
Jeannie Walters (16:38):
I know.
Sorry.
Tamsen Webster (16:40):
So I mean that that is.
That is a thing that I haveseen from my own work and even
though it's not focused so muchon customer experience per se
like that's, I mean, I see thatall the time, when it comes to
just even the core messaging ofa company, right, where, you
know, leadership says one thing,the, you know the, the
frontline experience issomething else and the
(17:00):
customer's experience yet athird thing.
And so, and I, and, and I thinkthat you know,
counterintuitively, there is aquote, unquote good reason for
it, or at least there's anunderstandable reason I don't
think it's necessarily apositive reason and that is that
we, we so operate from what wewish were true, that we kind of
(17:23):
forget that what we're, thatwhat anybody experiences, is
what is actually true, and it'sthat perception of that
experience.
That is what's what's there.
And I think, if you just askpeople to stop for a moment and
think about those assumptionsand I know that sounds like kind
of a weird thing to ask peopleto stop, but but in you know,
before brand, before strategy,and I know it gets based on what
(17:47):
we were talking about before westarted recording you know,
part of like how I think aboutmindset is what is the actual
operating philosophy of thiscompany.
Meaning, all right, is it okaywith us if the thing that we're
putting in place to make ourlives easier for our customers,
(18:07):
it actually makes lives for ourteam members that have to
deliver it harder?
Does that make sense to us?
Are we comfortable with that?
Because oftentimes, like that'sactually where, once we can
establish some, really, I meanit doesn't take a lot of work,
frankly, nor does it take a lotof time to say let's reverse
engineer, because whatever's inplace is actually representative
(18:30):
of kind of what, what thosevalues are that are actually
used, not the ones that are set.
So I think to your point ofbringing those people in, not
just on the conversation about,like, how do we implement this,
but all the way back from why dowe think this change makes
sense in the first place?
Why do we believe that?
Like, why does, I mean it'sgoing to start with management,
(18:53):
I am sure, fine.
And then have a conversation,kind of a tiering conversation,
as we go down in those levels ofthe organization, assuming a
traditional hierarchicalstructure, where we're saying,
okay, this is why we believe itmakes sense, if we do this,
we're going to get this outcome.
And now let's explain, based onour beliefs, principles, values
(19:14):
that we actually hold and youcan see us holding in practice.
Here's why we think thisapproach will deliver on that.
Not here's all the extrabenefits and all the features it
has.
Why do we think thisfoundational approach to this
question will solve that?
And you test it that level,because ultimately it's that
(19:36):
level of acceptance thatprecedes everything else.
Does everybody agree inprinciple that this should work
right?
And you can.
Humans are actually really goodat assessing on that level
whether or not that argumentchecks out.
And so you save everybody notonly a lot of time but a huge
(20:01):
amount of money, becausesometimes the things that stop
an initiative like this in itstracks are a very basic
assumption that somebody pointsout way too late, and that's the
thing you're trying to surfaceas early as possible.
Jeannie Walters (20:17):
And I think the other part of that is, you know
, we not only make assumptions,but we also we, we think if it
works on paper, it's going towork.
Right, and then you actuallytest it and see how things are
working, and that actually canguide some of your broader
(20:38):
communications about it.
Because that's when you startthinking about, wow, we didn't,
we didn't give instructions here, that's why this isn't working,
or we didn't actually thinkabout the next step of okay, now
people are signed up for theloyalty program, are we emailing
them about it?
Are they?
You know, do we have a pamphlet?
What are we doing?
And so I think really it's kindof this mix of thinking about
(21:02):
the actual activities, behaviors, all of those things, and how
can communication andcross-functional leadership
really support that.
Because I've heard so manyhorror stories about especially
technology rollouts.
Tamsen Webster (21:18):
Oh, I can only imagine.
Jeannie Walters (21:19):
And they can go to the field and then one of
the examples that I've talkedabout before we were part of was
this group that had, you know,guys in trucks and they would go
out and they had theirclipboard and then they started
using the handheld technology,yep, and what they realized was
they couldn't do, they couldn'treally get the results they
(21:41):
wanted with adoption withoutreally getting some leadership
within the field of peers.
Like it was, peer communicationworked much more effectively
because they were able to say Iknow what happens, right?
Like I know you're sitting inthe in the driveway and you're
filling out all this stuff, thisis going to make that faster
for you, this is what.
So they really understood thebenefits for those team members,
(22:04):
and I think that's somethingthat we sometimes forget when
we're at that higher level too.
Tamsen Webster (22:09):
And that's an important point, because it
isn't just the benefits.
They understood the rationale,right, of that and and you know
I use that term hesitantly,hesitatingly, because it's I
mean, it sounds we think, whenwe talk about benefits, that
we're actually talking aboutrationale and we're not like
(22:30):
that's actually not the samething.
I mean, the way I look at it,the benefits are really just
another way to articulate whatis the outcome that we're trying
to get.
We're trying to get this thingand guess what?
You're going to get all theseother things.
And then when we try to say,okay, well, what are we doing?
And we're like, but it's gotall these features, that's just
another way of saying like it'sjust a more micro way of saying
we're going to make this change.
(23:00):
But we leave out why thesefeatures would produce those
benefits in theory, right, basedon our own experience.
And because I don't care ifyou're in the field or
leadership, whose experience doyou trust the most?
Your own! So when somethingcomes down without something
that checks that intuitiveexperiential box, you are
running uphill with anyimplementation effort.
And I'm not even talking aboutchange, it's just because it's
(23:20):
like we have to usecommunication in order to get
that rationale out there.
But it really does start to saywhat have we done to make sure
this is going to check thatintuitive experiential box?
That that is what any piece ofevidence or explanation or
feature and benefit is going tohave to run through.
We use it as a filter for theinformation that we're going to
(23:41):
listen to after that.
And so it's just.
You know, anyway, I could.
I could go on and on.
I'm going to hold back, I'mgoing to hold back, but I think
that's the major point is justthat we don't, we, we think our
intuitive belief about somethingis enough, but in the reverse
situation, we wouldn't take itfrom somebody else, right, right
(24:02):
.
And so it's basically sayingwell, given the people that
you're trying to implement,whose experience, whose
intuition are they going totrust?
Yes, their own.
So we need to figure out a wayto make this intuitively make
sense to them, Right?
Which is going to be whatsounds like a logical
explanation, but it still needsto be from their point of view
(24:23):
the things that are going toalign with what they see day to
day, day in and day out.
Jeannie Walters (24:28):
Yes, totally agree, totally agree.
And I think that, likeintuition is not something we
always talk about in businessand it's so important.
It's so important in reallyunderstanding how people are
receiving information, how theyare perceiving the trust level I
think of hey, is this good forme or not?
And that all gets woven intothis.
(24:48):
So now I'm going to bring itall together.
Ready?
So this last article is fromsocPub, because of course it is.
How businesses can cultivate acustomer-centric culture during
natural disasters.
And what I found kind ofinteresting about this was we
are I'm experiencing this alittle bit real time because one
(25:12):
of our clients right now is theCity of Tampa.
And they have been through itright in the last few weeks and
witnessing what they have to doto get things stood up very
quickly to respond.
It's been I mean, it's reallyheroic.
It really is the people whostay overnight and do the things
that they need to do to takecare of their citizens.
(25:33):
It's really.
It's just been kind of amazingto witness, and one of the
things that I found veryinteresting about this article
was really thinking through likewe are going to have to deal
with this.
This is just part of our worldnow.
We have more natural disasters,they're more severe, they're
expanding in kind of theirgeography, and so a lot of times
(26:00):
we have to think about thingslike well, our office might be
fine, but what if we have aserver farm somewhere else?
What if we have a supply chaindisruption?
What if we have all of thesedifferent things that can really
impact the customer experience.
And so I think when we talkedabout you know with the first
article, about you have to beproactive and really have a plan
in place and then also thinkabout how do we actually make
(26:21):
sure that any way that peopleare reaching out to us, that we
are available to them.
Thinking through that omnichannel experience as well, it
really comes together insomething like this and serving
people in natural disasters.
So this is a little bit ofcrisis communications as well.
So I'm just curious like whatif you had that magic wand of
(26:43):
you know, if we did thisperfectly, what are some of the
ways that you would recommend?
Tamsen Webster (26:48):
Okay.
Well, one thing that stood outto me about that thing was how
do we cultivate this cultureduring a natural disaster?
I'm like step one, too late.
Honestly, and I know that's badnews, but the thing to
understand is that I mean I wasquickly trying to see if I could
(27:09):
find the source for it and Ican't, but we'll try to figure
out later which is that there isan author who recently wrote a
book, within the last, I think,two or three years, who made a
distinction between skills andtraits, and that's not a new
distinction, but what thisperson was pointing out was the
traits are the things that showup under stress, and so that, if
(27:31):
for no other reason, is thereason why cultivating a
customer-centric culture duringthe crisis is not the time to do
it, because that's when a wholedifferent set of of traits kind
of comes out, because we don'thave the same, frankly, capacity
to process things at the samelevel when we're dealing, when
(27:55):
we're in crisis mode.
I mean, that's that gets just tosomething again we were talking
about before.
We started hit record.
Like you know, dual processtheory, like when you're under
anxiety, when you're in stress,when you are in those kind of
high arousal states, you youreally cannot make rational
decisions, and so this is why itis so important to do this
(28:17):
beforehand or, if you hadn'tdone it beforehand, to take the
lessons of what happened duringcrisis and then start to figure
out what A what does that revealabout?
Like, what did our behavior asan organization reveal about the
actual traits that are drivinghow we go about things?
Right and as you said, this hasbeen for your client.
(28:40):
This has been heroic.
You've actually seen this likeincredible community-minded
mindset.
That now is part of theexperience that people have.
So you know I hope I don'tsound like you know somebody
with a hammer and everythinglooks like a nail here, but it
really does come back to sayingyou know fundamentally, what is
(29:01):
our, what is our organizationhere to do?
What is the big question thatit answers?
And I far prefer that framingthan what's the problem that we
solve?
That also has to do with a kindof a funny cognitive loop here
is that by simply by framing itas a question that you answer,
you not only include the problemthat you solve, but you
(29:22):
actually open up people's theway people think about possible
solutions to be much, muchbroader.
And everybody says they wantinnovation, so let's not like
shut down the channels for thatbefore it starts.
So really answering thatquestion, like what is your
client's purpose in all of this,like what is the question
they're trying to answer, andthat can change, you know, kind
(29:45):
of situation by situation.
But stepping back, you can say,well, globally, when we're not
in crisis, what is the thingthat we're here to do and what
do we as an organization, basedon our behaviors, can we reverse
, engineer, can we excavate andsay that these are actually the
operating principles of thebusiness, not the aspirational
(30:07):
ones, not the ones that we say,but the ones that we're actually
governing what we do.
So Jim Duterte out of theUniversity of Virginia calls
these the deep rules oforganizations and he's using
them in a slightly differentcontext.
But I think that's a nice kindof understandable, plain English
way to get some of thesecomplicated concepts.
But I think that is what it'sabout, right.
(30:29):
And even if you haven't donethat work and find yourself in
the middle of a crisis, I thinkit's worth taking an hour, and I
this is what I have seen withthe work that I do with clients
you really can get extraordinaryclarity in an hour.
What is our kind of guidingprinciple here?
What is the kind of what's thepurpose mission?
(30:51):
Like, what are we trying to do?
I know the army used to call itcommander's intent, but one of
my classmates in my doctoralprogram, like two of them, are
actual army Rangers and theythey haven't told me what the
updated thing is yet, but it'sthat idea of like what's the big
question we're trying to answerand give us like two pillars.
Honestly, yeah, anymore, andthey can't remember it.
And so this, I think, is partof the problem with so many
(31:19):
organizational strategies,implementation plans, brand
things, like kind of your corebrand documents as well, is that
they are so flipping,complicated and they're so
detailed because we're trying tobe comprehensive that they're
not actually comprehensible.
Right, you know the analogy Ilike to use.
(31:39):
I'm still trying to find abigger one, but it's basically
like we're serving everybodylike a spaghetti and meatball
dinner, fully cooked all at once, with no bowl, and we're like
eat it in one bite and that'snot possible.
Right?
Jeannie Walters (31:53):
Right.
Tamsen Webster (31:54):
It's basically about saying like, ok, how can
we give you the end of thenoodle.
Right?
And then we're going to buildon that and, like I said, at any
moment is never too late tostep back and say what are we
going to stand for in thismoment and then use that and
keep it tight.
Right?
Again, don't turn it into 16levels and visions and value
(32:18):
statements and like start there,start there, and then use that
to build and contextualize allthe things that you do from, do
afterward.
Jeannie Walters (32:26):
Yeah, yeah, and we do something with our
clients called a CX MissionStatement, and part of it is
because they would show like,look at all of our values and
vision and all that.
And number one, sometimes theynever mention the customer.
They they never think about thecustomer.
And number two, like to yourpoint, there was no way to to
(32:49):
really access what was mostimportant for the customer
experience.
And the hardest part about itis keeping it concise.
They always want to add 17bullets and all of that, and you
know we try to keep it asentence or two.
And and part of that is becausethere are also trade-offs when
you're talking about values andyou're talking about your
promise and you can't always bethe fastest and the most
(33:12):
accurate, right.
Tamsen Webster (33:14):
And those are table stakes, right, because?
If you're not fast and ifyou're not accurate right.
Like then what are you evendoing, right?
Jeannie Walters (33:21):
Yeah.
Tamsen Webster (33:23):
I, you know, mission statements.
That's a whole other topic forus, Jeannie.
Because my, the first 15 yearsof my career were in, were in
nonprofits, and so I havethoughts.
I mean the mission statementsare wonderful because they do.
They do capture the aspiration.
Right and and you're right, we,because they're aspirational.
(33:44):
I think is part of why we startto put all the stuff in.
And so, yeah, the work that Ido with clients is like I'm
ruthless and I'm like y'allbetter write it with like cut,
because this is what we'retalking about.
And really like it does comedown to that, because what I
really want an organization tobe able to say is you know, we
believe that you know,accountability.
(34:07):
I'm using a client example here, with permission.
We believe that accountabilityis the ownership of outcomes and
we believe success requiresexecution at scale.
That's why, in order to ensurethat we are ready for this big
strategic shift that we're aboutto make our job, job number one
is to scale accountabilitythrough the organization.
(34:27):
Everybody on board, great.
Then you go to the next layer.
It's almost like I think it waslike Google earth, right?
Like this is the big, likeoverview map that says we're
going from point A to point B.
Destination check.
Everybody agree where we are.
Where we are, Everybody agreeabout where we're going, Great.
Now, once we've got the kind ofgeneral route mapped out, let's
(34:49):
get more specific, morespecific, more specific, so that
it's only after you've checkedthat understanding and agreement
at each of those levels can youstart to do the equivalent of
what we usually do right away,which is the equivalent of the
turn by turn directions and in500 feet, turn left.
But if I don't even know whatcontinent I'm on, and I don't
even know where I'm going.
(35:11):
Why would I?
And so that's what this is allabout.
It's really about finding thesimplest, strongest articulation
of what is guiding yourbehaviors and thoughts right now
.
If you don't like it, we'llworry about that later, but it's
like you have to start in orderto build that trust we were
talking about from that point ofview of what people are
(35:33):
actually experiencing, becauseanything else, any gap between
their actual experience and thataspirational statement, is
going to erode trust.
Full stop.
Jeannie Walters (35:44):
And I think the thing that I see a lot in
customer experience is that it'svery tempting to just start
with tactics right, to juststart with like let's check this
box and check this box, andthen after a while everybody
looks around and says why are wedoing this?
What is happening, what is thisall connected to?
And so I love the Google Earthexample, because that's really
(36:06):
what it's about.
It's about figuring out who arewe.
What's most important?
Tamsen Webster (36:10):
Where are we, where are we going, yeah?
Jeannie Walters (36:15):
And then we can figure out the turn by turn so
well.
We have had so much fun and Ihope that all of you listening
out there have appreciated allthe wisdom that Tamsen has
brought to our discussion today.
So thank you so much, Tamsen,for being here.
Tamsen Webster (36:29):
Oh my gosh, this was super fun.
I don't I don't often get to,like you know, go back to my, to
my master's degree in likecrisis communications and and so
this is like super fun.
I'm like, yay, this is super.
But again, like it's so much ofa background in marketing is,
you know it's, it's, it'scustomer experience adjacent,
and that's you know and I thinkso many of the things that
you're talking about when you'retalking about go straight to
(36:50):
implementation.
check all the boxes.
You know I could see that, youknow, back in the early parts of
my career with the very samething.
People are like well, do wehave a website?
Can we make it green?
Like, let's make it spin.
And it's just like whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Like, does it matter if it'sgreen or spinning if the people
we are trying to talk to wouldnever understand or agree with
it in the first place?
Jeannie Walters (37:11):
Right.
Tamsen Webster (37:12):
N o.
So really to me, like that, itis like that is the, the, that
is like my kind of called armsright, like um, to say, listen,
we've just we need to startthere.
We need to start with whatwe're doing, why we're doing it
that way and what we can stand ahundred percent behind as our
(37:33):
justification for that.
And it's not data, it's notdata.
It's a logical explanation ofour beliefs.
Jeannie Walters (37:40):
Yes, well, I think you and I are going to
lead the charge there.
We've got, we're on the horse,we're, we're riding out.
So well, thank you for beinghere and you know, I know we'll
talk again very soon.
Tamsen Webster (37:53):
Sure we will will.
I'm looking forward to it.
All right, thanks so much,thank you.
Jeannie Walters (37:58):
And thank you for being here, for listening
and for watching with us, andthank you for all the work you
do as customer experienceleaders.
Now, for those of you who don'tknow, this is an unusual
episode once a month that we do,but overall, I'm here to answer
your questions, so please leaveme a voicemail at askjeannievip
(38:18):
and I will answer your questionon the podcast.
Keep learning, keep leading,and I will see you next time.
It's the Experience Action Podcast and
I'm your host, Jeannie Walters.
This is my favorite episode ofthe month because it's time for
CX Pulse Check, where me and aspecial co-host talk about
recent things in the news thatimpact customer experience and
what you can learn from it.
I am so excited about ourco-host this month.
(00:30):
It is the one and only TamsenWebster! Tamsen hello.
Tamsen Webster (00:35):
Hello! How are you, Jeannie?
Jeannie Walters (00:38):
I am great.
I'm so thrilled you're here andfor those very few people who
might not be aware of you andyour work, I would love for you
to share a little bit about whatyou do and who you are.
Tamsen Webster (00:50):
Sure, so I'm Tamsen Webster, literally the
only one.
That's kind of fun.
I am a message designer bytrade.
I am the founder of the MessageDesign Institute and I have
spent the bulk of my 25 plusyear career trying to answer the
question about how can weaccelerate the understanding and
(01:10):
adoption of new ideas.
Jeannie Walters (01:13):
Excellent.
And for those of you who havenot followed Tamsen forever,
like yours truly, then I wouldrecommend you follow on LinkedIn
.
You go and look up her workaround the Red Thread and you
have a new book.
Tamsen Webster (01:26):
I do there.
It is right here.
Look at that.
Look, it's already flagged.
Love that.
Jeannie Walters (01:31):
It is already flagged and I barely started it.
But this is one of myfavorites, "when two truths
fight, only one wins that.
I mean there there is a lot ofpower in this book because I
think everybody right now isreally trying to figure out
communication in a different way, trying to figure out how do we
(01:52):
make sure that we get ourmessage across and how do we do
it in a way that people canreally not only hear it but act
on it and remember it for a long, long time.
So, yeah, this is it's reallyreally exciting so
Tamsen Webster (02:05):
Well thanks, yeah, I, I am excited to get it
out into the world it.
It just really struck me in allthe years that I've been doing
this you know, branding,messaging, change communications
, organizational communicationshow often just change broke at
the at the communication part,and I've been ever curious about
(02:29):
that and kept kind of workingbackwards up the line.
So I started in marketing.
Maybe it's the brand, maybeit's this thing, maybe it's this
thing, maybe it's this thing.
And then fundamentally I got tothe core of where I think a lot
of it is, which is thatfundamentally to use a quote
that I quoted in my first bookfrom Agatha Christie that words
are only the outer clothing ofideas.
(02:50):
And I think a lot of times, forgood reasons, because of how
our brains are wired, we kind offorget why we actually believe
that a new initiative or achange or a practice that we're
trying to put in place for ourorganizations, why it is that we
really believe, like in our, inour core, why that it's the
(03:14):
right decision.
And the more I have found thatpeople have been able to
articulate that, the moresuccessful all the other things,
all the other forms ofcommunication and the
implementation as it shows up inexperience and how your clients
and customers experience thatit can have a transformational
effect on all of it.
Jeannie Walters (03:35):
Absolutely! And I think change management and
customer experience go hand inhand, because a lot of what
we're doing is trying to changebehavior and outcomes within the
organization in order todeliver that.
So I highly recommend that myCX leaders out there go check
out that book.
Tamsen Webster (03:54):
Thank you.
Jeannie Walters (03:55):
I also wanted to kind of dive into this idea
of how connected communicationis in general with customer
experience and with you knowI've done I don't know how many
customer journey mappingsessions at this point, and
every single one has acommunication breakdown, every
single one that we discover andthat we have to do something
(04:18):
about.
And so it's so connected and Ithink sometimes we overlook that
.
We think that experience isthis big idea or a big thing,
but it's really about all thesesmall moments and it's really
about delivering what youpromise and all of those things.
So, speaking of delivering whatthey promise, yes, we are in an
era with a lot of us receivingthose letters in the mail or
(04:43):
those phone calls telling usthere's been fraud on the bank
account or the credit card.
And this first article that wepulled up here is from Business
Wire and it's really about I'mgoing to read it and it's not
the it won't sound great onaudio I'm just going to say that
.
IQC Inc and Pymnts, which isP-Y-M-N-T-S survey, reveals
(05:09):
consumer expectations for howbanks respond to credit card
fraud, and what stood out to meabout this is that, first of all
, it's so prevalent 25% ofcustomers deal with some sort of
fraud on a regular basis, andthe fact that we all know that
experience and I think that partof what you know we want to do
(05:31):
as customer experience leadersis be as proactive as we can be-
but in some cases we have toreact, and we have to react
really quickly.
So I'm just curious, like thistalked about, you know how
important that proactivecommunication was and how, if we
don't deliver on that weactually erode trust pretty
quickly.
So any thoughts on this?
What did you see?
Tamsen Webster (05:54):
Oh gosh! So many .
Well I think that, so yes, theproactivity is this idea I think
it comes into play is where wehave this expectation as humans
that we're experts in our ownstuff and other people are
experts in theirs.
And how I think that mattershere is if I trust my bank to
manage my credit then I'm, I'messentially trusting that they
know more about how to keep thatmoney and how to keep those
(06:28):
transactions transactionsprotected than I do.
So that moment where, if I haveto go and say I think there's
fraud here and they haven't,they haven't adjusted for that
it does, as you say, it's a,it's an extraordinary violation
of that trust because it's likewhat am I even doing this?
Like what are you even doing Ifyou're not paying attention to
(06:49):
this?
You're supposed to be theexpert, and I think where this
can really go hand in hand andkind of broader thought that
came up for me as I was readingthis was, I think, a lot of
times in customer experience andlinking it back to that
communication piece, I thinksometimes we think so much about
the experience that we want tocreate for our customers and
(07:12):
clients that we forget toaccount for the experience
they've had to date.
Meaning there is, you know, soyou can say that you're
proactive or whatever, but likewhat's actually going to count
for them long-term is what theirrepeated experience, actual
experience is there, and so Ithink that that's both where
(07:36):
that desire for proactivitycomes from, but also, I think,
more of a where the practicaldiagnosis can come in from a
from a company standpoint, tosay, okay, well, how like?
What are they bringing to thetable?
Like, because their their theirexperience with fraud, their
experience with credit.
And all of this doesn't startusually at the moment they open
(07:57):
an account with us.
Right, there's all this otherstuff.
So how can we account for that,validate it and create a
different experience for thembased on what they're walking in
with?
Jeannie Walters (08:09):
And I think it's a really important point
that often when I'm working withdifferent organizations, we
kind of act like our customersare waking up inside of our
journey, right.
Tamsen Webster (08:22):
They're like oh, I didn't know you were here.
Jeannie Walters (08:25):
Yeah, oh great, I'm going to plan my whole day
around going to the bank and ofcourse, that's not reality.
We have to remember like theseare whole people who have had
whole lives and they, you know,they're trying to accomplish
something.
And I think one of the thingsthat this article got me
thinking about was just how easyit is to kind of become
(08:46):
complacent.
And one of the things that theytalked about was you know, how
do we not create alert fatiguefor customers where we're saying
like everything is a crisisbecause we want to be, we want
to communicate all the time withthem and be transparent, but at
the same time, not everythingis the same level of crisis and
(09:08):
not everything needs theirattention in that same way.
So I think your point about wetrust you to know what you're
doing, so reassurance, I thinkis really important and being
proactive about that reassurance.
But I think we also have toreally think strategically about
the what ifs.
What if we have fraud?
(09:29):
What if we have, you know, ourphones are down?
What if all of these things?
And you have that plan so youcan just kind of turn it on when
you need it instead ofscrambling.
Tamsen Webster (09:40):
Yes, I love that point that you're making,
Jeannie, about we think thatthey've just woken up in our
experience.
And when you started to talkabout the alerts, that that and
my brain went to two places atonce.
Not unusual.
Number one how the, thenewspaper apps and the and the
(10:00):
news apps violated that.
Right?
Like, I remember growing up,like watching broadcast TV, if
there was an interruption ofbreaking news, it was something
legit, big.
Right?
Like, and it was like I've gotto train, like I had like it
took me a long time to like losethe like trained in anxiety
response of like a breaking newsalert.
(10:21):
And then, and then the newsapps and they're, they all do it
, so we're not going to say it'sone or the other as just
absolutely, I think, violatedthat experience of now
everything is like breaking news.
We've got paella and you'relike dude, that is not breaking
news, like these two things arenot equivalent.
So the reason why I bring thatup is because, again, thinking
(10:45):
about the experience that yourclients or customers bring to
you, how does the experienceyou're creating?
It's not as you say, it's notin a vacuum, it's in a it's in
with everything else, whichmeans if they're already getting
too many silly alerts from fromemail, from social, from their
news apps, and then you are justpinging with like, hey, act
(11:06):
now, we've got a new APR rateand you're like y'all.
The thing is, it's about thisis one of those opportunities to
be different and valuable,meaning we're only actually
going to reach out to you whenit's absolutely necessary,
because that way you're actuallytraining in a good way, you're
(11:29):
conditioning your, your clientsand customers to pay attention
rather than to ignore you.
Jeannie Walters (11:37):
That's right, that's right.
Tamsen Webster (11:38):
And that, I think, is it's a product of
really looking at, like what isthe rest of the experience that
they're bringing in in any givenmoment.
Jeannie Walters (11:45):
Yes, and I'm going to put this out to the
universe just because it's arequest from me to all the banks
out there, because, as a smallbusiness owner with business
banking, I can't tell you howmany months I look at my
statement and there's somethingthat says something like
statement fee and I have to callto say what is this?
(12:06):
And they say, oh, that'sbecause you, it's a wire fee, or
it's this, or it's thatperfectly logical explanation.
Tamsen Webster (12:13):
Could you just define it?
Just put a glossary on the page.
Jeannie Walters (12:17):
Right! Why are you making me?
Why are you making me call yourpeople, who sometimes have to
look it up, or whatever?
It just like it drives mebananas, so I'm putting that out
to the universe.
Tamsen Webster (12:27):
I love that.
And that's a solvable problem,Jeannie.
As far as I'm concerned, toeither print it like you know,
hey, useful terms, it goes right, like right, in the kind of
like the grade back text, or, ifyou're getting an online
statement, anything is likehyperlinked to an explanation,
so you can like what is this.
Right! Exactly?
Or just call it what it is.
(12:50):
That's right, because when we don't call
things what they are, we can'thelp but doubt them.
Right?
Because, you know, one of thethings I talk about in the book
is that humans are wildlyattuned to intent, and trust is
a product of perceivedcapability.
How good are you at this thingthat you're saying that you can
help me with, or that you havecontracted with me to help me
with, and what is your intent?
And so the thing is.
(13:13):
So when a company like a bankis proactive, it's like that
builds that capability, like, ohmy gosh, you caught this before
I even did, and I think most ofus would rather it be flagged
as fraudulent and it isn't thenthe opposite happens right.
But then the second thinghappens with.
Intent is like when youwithhold information, or it
feels like you are withholdinginformation.
(13:33):
Well then, given again pastexperience to date with other
companies, other corporations,et cetera, other experiences of
people withholding informationmany of us have very negative
associations with when we haveto go find something out.
Jeannie Walters (13:48):
Right, that's right.
Tamsen Webster (13:49):
And so it's about getting ahead of those
assumptions, those beliefs,those that past experiences may
have created in your customers,even if they weren't with you.
This is how you have anopportunity to really set
yourself apart and to also livethe values that you say that
you're there for.
Jeannie Walters (14:10):
Amen, all right .
Okay, we've solved banking.
Tamsen Webster (14:13):
Great! Done.
Alright, next.
Jeannie Walters (14:16):
So now let's move into retail.
So this is, this is just.
It was really an example of arecent transformation around
kind of that omni-channelexperience that all
organizations want and havechallenges around.
And this is from CX Dive andthe headline is how the Vitamin
(14:37):
Shop Builds Flexible CustomerExperiences and it was really a
story about the upgrade to theirpoint of sale system and their
kind of digital landscape.
But what stood out to me aboutit was that when, one of the
(15:19):
things that they're very proudof that they wanted to talk
about was this idea that now ifsomebody is in the store and
they go up to the point of salesystem, their loyalty program
can be recognized and they canreally sign up for different
things there.
So, I think it's a greatexample of how so many
organizations are still kindofliving with legacy systems that
are siloed that aren't reallyabout the customer journey, that
are about like marketingprobably owns that loyalty
program right, and then thepoint of sale system, that's
probably operations or fieldoperations or what have you.
But, the part about this thatthey mentioned at the very end
of this article was really abouthow oh this took a lot of
(15:40):
cross-functional communicationand building on the actual
experience within and this issomething I see over and over
again is that we are sometimesso focused on this ideal project
of we're going to roll out thisomni-channel thing we literally
(16:01):
forget to include the peoplewho are on the front lines, who
will be the ones delivering it.
So I think that when we thinkabout big projects like this,
you know we've talked aboutchange management and we've
talked about these things.
It's really about also includingthese groups and these people
early enough in the process sothat they can have a say in.
Well, that doesn't make sense,right?
(16:22):
Like we might not be able to dothat.
So, you know, with your kind ofperspective, I'm just curious,
like what are thosecross-functional communication
gotchas?
Tamsen Webster (16:33):
Yes, I mean, oh Lordy, this is a huge topic,
Jeannie you know.
Jeannie Walters (16:38):
I know.
Sorry.
Tamsen Webster (16:40):
So I mean that that is.
That is a thing that I haveseen from my own work and even
though it's not focused so muchon customer experience per se
like that's, I mean, I see thatall the time, when it comes to
just even the core messaging ofa company, right, where, you
know, leadership says one thing,the, you know the, the
frontline experience issomething else and the
(17:00):
customer's experience yet athird thing.
And so, and I, and, and I thinkthat you know,
counterintuitively, there is aquote, unquote good reason for
it, or at least there's anunderstandable reason I don't
think it's necessarily apositive reason and that is that
we, we so operate from what wewish were true, that we kind of
(17:23):
forget that what we're, thatwhat anybody experiences, is
what is actually true, and it'sthat perception of that
experience.
That is what's what's there.
And I think, if you just askpeople to stop for a moment and
think about those assumptionsand I know that sounds like kind
of a weird thing to ask peopleto stop, but but in you know,
before brand, before strategy,and I know it gets based on what
(17:47):
we were talking about before westarted recording you know,
part of like how I think aboutmindset is what is the actual
operating philosophy of thiscompany.
Meaning, all right, is it okaywith us if the thing that we're
putting in place to make ourlives easier for our customers,
(18:07):
it actually makes lives for ourteam members that have to
deliver it harder?
Does that make sense to us?
Are we comfortable with that?
Because oftentimes, like that'sactually where, once we can
establish some, really, I meanit doesn't take a lot of work,
frankly, nor does it take a lotof time to say let's reverse
engineer, because whatever's inplace is actually representative
(18:30):
of kind of what, what thosevalues are that are actually
used, not the ones that are set.
So I think to your point ofbringing those people in, not
just on the conversation about,like, how do we implement this,
but all the way back from why dowe think this change makes
sense in the first place?
Why do we believe that?
Like, why does, I mean it'sgoing to start with management,
(18:53):
I am sure, fine.
And then have a conversation,kind of a tiering conversation,
as we go down in those levels ofthe organization, assuming a
traditional hierarchicalstructure, where we're saying,
okay, this is why we believe itmakes sense, if we do this,
we're going to get this outcome.
And now let's explain, based onour beliefs, principles, values
(19:14):
that we actually hold and youcan see us holding in practice.
Here's why we think thisapproach will deliver on that.
Not here's all the extrabenefits and all the features it
has.
Why do we think thisfoundational approach to this
question will solve that?
And you test it that level,because ultimately it's that
(19:36):
level of acceptance thatprecedes everything else.
Does everybody agree inprinciple that this should work
right?
And you can.
Humans are actually really goodat assessing on that level
whether or not that argumentchecks out.
And so you save everybody notonly a lot of time but a huge
(20:01):
amount of money, becausesometimes the things that stop
an initiative like this in itstracks are a very basic
assumption that somebody pointsout way too late, and that's the
thing you're trying to surfaceas early as possible.
Jeannie Walters (20:17):
And I think the other part of that is, you know
, we not only make assumptions,but we also we, we think if it
works on paper, it's going towork.
Right, and then you actuallytest it and see how things are
working, and that actually canguide some of your broader
(20:38):
communications about it.
Because that's when you startthinking about, wow, we didn't,
we didn't give instructions here, that's why this isn't working,
or we didn't actually thinkabout the next step of okay, now
people are signed up for theloyalty program, are we emailing
them about it?
Are they?
You know, do we have a pamphlet?
What are we doing?
And so I think really it's kindof this mix of thinking about
(21:02):
the actual activities, behaviors, all of those things, and how
can communication andcross-functional leadership
really support that.
Because I've heard so manyhorror stories about especially
technology rollouts.
Tamsen Webster (21:18):
Oh, I can only imagine.
Jeannie Walters (21:19):
And they can go to the field and then one of
the examples that I've talkedabout before we were part of was
this group that had, you know,guys in trucks and they would go
out and they had theirclipboard and then they started
using the handheld technology,yep, and what they realized was
they couldn't do, they couldn'treally get the results they
(21:41):
wanted with adoption withoutreally getting some leadership
within the field of peers.
Like it was, peer communicationworked much more effectively
because they were able to say Iknow what happens, right?
Like I know you're sitting inthe in the driveway and you're
filling out all this stuff, thisis going to make that faster
for you, this is what.
So they really understood thebenefits for those team members,
(22:04):
and I think that's somethingthat we sometimes forget when
we're at that higher level too.
Tamsen Webster (22:09):
And that's an important point, because it
isn't just the benefits.
They understood the rationale,right, of that and and you know
I use that term hesitantly,hesitatingly, because it's I
mean, it sounds we think, whenwe talk about benefits, that
we're actually talking aboutrationale and we're not like
(22:30):
that's actually not the samething.
I mean, the way I look at it,the benefits are really just
another way to articulate whatis the outcome that we're trying
to get.
We're trying to get this thingand guess what?
You're going to get all theseother things.
And then when we try to say,okay, well, what are we doing?
And we're like, but it's gotall these features, that's just
another way of saying like it'sjust a more micro way of saying
we're going to make this change.
(23:00):
But we leave out why thesefeatures would produce those
benefits in theory, right, basedon our own experience.
And because I don't care ifyou're in the field or
leadership, whose experience doyou trust the most?
Your own! So when somethingcomes down without something
that checks that intuitiveexperiential box, you are
running uphill with anyimplementation effort.
And I'm not even talking aboutchange, it's just because it's
(23:20):
like we have to usecommunication in order to get
that rationale out there.
But it really does start to saywhat have we done to make sure
this is going to check thatintuitive experiential box?
That that is what any piece ofevidence or explanation or
feature and benefit is going tohave to run through.
We use it as a filter for theinformation that we're going to
(23:41):
listen to after that.
And so it's just.
You know, anyway, I could.
I could go on and on.
I'm going to hold back, I'mgoing to hold back, but I think
that's the major point is justthat we don't, we, we think our
intuitive belief about somethingis enough, but in the reverse
situation, we wouldn't take itfrom somebody else, right, right
(24:02):
.
And so it's basically sayingwell, given the people that
you're trying to implement,whose experience, whose
intuition are they going totrust?
Yes, their own.
So we need to figure out a wayto make this intuitively make
sense to them, Right?
Which is going to be whatsounds like a logical
explanation, but it still needsto be from their point of view
(24:23):
the things that are going toalign with what they see day to
day, day in and day out.
Jeannie Walters (24:28):
Yes, totally agree, totally agree.
And I think that, likeintuition is not something we
always talk about in businessand it's so important.
It's so important in reallyunderstanding how people are
receiving information, how theyare perceiving the trust level I
think of hey, is this good forme or not?
And that all gets woven intothis.
(24:48):
So now I'm going to bring itall together.
Ready?
So this last article is fromsocPub, because of course it is.
How businesses can cultivate acustomer-centric culture during
natural disasters.
And what I found kind ofinteresting about this was we
are I'm experiencing this alittle bit real time because one
(25:12):
of our clients right now is theCity of Tampa.
And they have been through itright in the last few weeks and
witnessing what they have to doto get things stood up very
quickly to respond.
It's been I mean, it's reallyheroic.
It really is the people whostay overnight and do the things
that they need to do to takecare of their citizens.
(25:33):
It's really.
It's just been kind of amazingto witness, and one of the
things that I found veryinteresting about this article
was really thinking through likewe are going to have to deal
with this.
This is just part of our worldnow.
We have more natural disasters,they're more severe, they're
expanding in kind of theirgeography, and so a lot of times
(26:00):
we have to think about thingslike well, our office might be
fine, but what if we have aserver farm somewhere else?
What if we have a supply chaindisruption?
What if we have all of thesedifferent things that can really
impact the customer experience.
And so I think when we talkedabout you know with the first
article, about you have to beproactive and really have a plan
in place and then also thinkabout how do we actually make
(26:21):
sure that any way that peopleare reaching out to us, that we
are available to them.
Thinking through that omnichannel experience as well, it
really comes together insomething like this and serving
people in natural disasters.
So this is a little bit ofcrisis communications as well.
So I'm just curious like whatif you had that magic wand of
(26:43):
you know, if we did thisperfectly, what are some of the
ways that you would recommend?
Tamsen Webster (26:48):
Okay.
Well, one thing that stood outto me about that thing was how
do we cultivate this cultureduring a natural disaster?
I'm like step one, too late.
Honestly, and I know that's badnews, but the thing to
understand is that I mean I wasquickly trying to see if I could
(27:09):
find the source for it and Ican't, but we'll try to figure
out later which is that there isan author who recently wrote a
book, within the last, I think,two or three years, who made a
distinction between skills andtraits, and that's not a new
distinction, but what thisperson was pointing out was the
traits are the things that showup under stress, and so that, if
(27:31):
for no other reason, is thereason why cultivating a
customer-centric culture duringthe crisis is not the time to do
it, because that's when a wholedifferent set of of traits kind
of comes out, because we don'thave the same, frankly, capacity
to process things at the samelevel when we're dealing, when
(27:55):
we're in crisis mode.
I mean, that's that gets just tosomething again we were talking
about before.
We started hit record.
Like you know, dual processtheory, like when you're under
anxiety, when you're in stress,when you are in those kind of
high arousal states, you youreally cannot make rational
decisions, and so this is why itis so important to do this
(28:17):
beforehand or, if you hadn'tdone it beforehand, to take the
lessons of what happened duringcrisis and then start to figure
out what A what does that revealabout?
Like, what did our behavior asan organization reveal about the
actual traits that are drivinghow we go about things?
Right and as you said, this hasbeen for your client.
(28:40):
This has been heroic.
You've actually seen this likeincredible community-minded
mindset.
That now is part of theexperience that people have.
So you know I hope I don'tsound like you know somebody
with a hammer and everythinglooks like a nail here, but it
really does come back to sayingyou know fundamentally, what is
(29:01):
our, what is our organizationhere to do?
What is the big question thatit answers?
And I far prefer that framingthan what's the problem that we
solve?
That also has to do with a kindof a funny cognitive loop here
is that by simply by framing itas a question that you answer,
you not only include the problemthat you solve, but you
(29:22):
actually open up people's theway people think about possible
solutions to be much, muchbroader.
And everybody says they wantinnovation, so let's not like
shut down the channels for thatbefore it starts.
So really answering thatquestion, like what is your
client's purpose in all of this,like what is the question
they're trying to answer, andthat can change, you know, kind
(29:45):
of situation by situation.
But stepping back, you can say,well, globally, when we're not
in crisis, what is the thingthat we're here to do and what
do we as an organization, basedon our behaviors, can we reverse
, engineer, can we excavate andsay that these are actually the
operating principles of thebusiness, not the aspirational
(30:07):
ones, not the ones that we say,but the ones that we're actually
governing what we do.
So Jim Duterte out of theUniversity of Virginia calls
these the deep rules oforganizations and he's using
them in a slightly differentcontext.
But I think that's a nice kindof understandable, plain English
way to get some of thesecomplicated concepts.
But I think that is what it'sabout, right.
(30:29):
And even if you haven't donethat work and find yourself in
the middle of a crisis, I thinkit's worth taking an hour, and I
this is what I have seen withthe work that I do with clients
you really can get extraordinaryclarity in an hour.
What is our kind of guidingprinciple here?
What is the kind of what's thepurpose mission?
(30:51):
Like, what are we trying to do?
I know the army used to call itcommander's intent, but one of
my classmates in my doctoralprogram, like two of them, are
actual army Rangers and theythey haven't told me what the
updated thing is yet, but it'sthat idea of like what's the big
question we're trying to answerand give us like two pillars.
Honestly, yeah, anymore, andthey can't remember it.
And so this, I think, is partof the problem with so many
(31:19):
organizational strategies,implementation plans, brand
things, like kind of your corebrand documents as well, is that
they are so flipping,complicated and they're so
detailed because we're trying tobe comprehensive that they're
not actually comprehensible.
Right, you know the analogy Ilike to use.
(31:39):
I'm still trying to find abigger one, but it's basically
like we're serving everybodylike a spaghetti and meatball
dinner, fully cooked all at once, with no bowl, and we're like
eat it in one bite and that'snot possible.
Right?
Jeannie Walters (31:53):
Right.
Tamsen Webster (31:54):
It's basically about saying like, ok, how can
we give you the end of thenoodle.
Right?
And then we're going to buildon that and, like I said, at any
moment is never too late tostep back and say what are we
going to stand for in thismoment and then use that and
keep it tight.
Right?
Again, don't turn it into 16levels and visions and value
(32:18):
statements and like start there,start there, and then use that
to build and contextualize allthe things that you do from, do
afterward.
Jeannie Walters (32:26):
Yeah, yeah, and we do something with our
clients called a CX MissionStatement, and part of it is
because they would show like,look at all of our values and
vision and all that.
And number one, sometimes theynever mention the customer.
They they never think about thecustomer.
And number two, like to yourpoint, there was no way to to
(32:49):
really access what was mostimportant for the customer
experience.
And the hardest part about itis keeping it concise.
They always want to add 17bullets and all of that, and you
know we try to keep it asentence or two.
And and part of that is becausethere are also trade-offs when
you're talking about values andyou're talking about your
promise and you can't always bethe fastest and the most
(33:12):
accurate, right.
Tamsen Webster (33:14):
And those are table stakes, right, because?
If you're not fast and ifyou're not accurate right.
Like then what are you evendoing, right?
Jeannie Walters (33:21):
Yeah.
Tamsen Webster (33:23):
I, you know, mission statements.
That's a whole other topic forus, Jeannie.
Because my, the first 15 yearsof my career were in, were in
nonprofits, and so I havethoughts.
I mean the mission statementsare wonderful because they do.
They do capture the aspiration.
Right and and you're right, we,because they're aspirational.
(33:44):
I think is part of why we startto put all the stuff in.
And so, yeah, the work that Ido with clients is like I'm
ruthless and I'm like y'allbetter write it with like cut,
because this is what we'retalking about.
And really like it does comedown to that, because what I
really want an organization tobe able to say is you know, we
believe that you know,accountability.
(34:07):
I'm using a client example here, with permission.
We believe that accountabilityis the ownership of outcomes and
we believe success requiresexecution at scale.
That's why, in order to ensurethat we are ready for this big
strategic shift that we're aboutto make our job, job number one
is to scale accountabilitythrough the organization.
(34:27):
Everybody on board, great.
Then you go to the next layer.
It's almost like I think it waslike Google earth, right?
Like this is the big, likeoverview map that says we're
going from point A to point B.
Destination check.
Everybody agree where we are.
Where we are, Everybody agreeabout where we're going, Great.
Now, once we've got the kind ofgeneral route mapped out, let's
(34:49):
get more specific, morespecific, more specific, so that
it's only after you've checkedthat understanding and agreement
at each of those levels can youstart to do the equivalent of
what we usually do right away,which is the equivalent of the
turn by turn directions and in500 feet, turn left.
But if I don't even know whatcontinent I'm on, and I don't
even know where I'm going.
(35:11):
Why would I?
And so that's what this is allabout.
It's really about finding thesimplest, strongest articulation
of what is guiding yourbehaviors and thoughts right now
.
If you don't like it, we'llworry about that later, but it's
like you have to start in orderto build that trust we were
talking about from that point ofview of what people are
(35:33):
actually experiencing, becauseanything else, any gap between
their actual experience and thataspirational statement, is
going to erode trust.
Full stop.
Jeannie Walters (35:44):
And I think the thing that I see a lot in
customer experience is that it'svery tempting to just start
with tactics right, to juststart with like let's check this
box and check this box, andthen after a while everybody
looks around and says why are wedoing this?
What is happening, what is thisall connected to?
And so I love the Google Earthexample, because that's really
(36:06):
what it's about.
It's about figuring out who arewe.
What's most important?
Tamsen Webster (36:10):
Where are we, where are we going, yeah?
Jeannie Walters (36:15):
And then we can figure out the turn by turn so
well.
We have had so much fun and Ihope that all of you listening
out there have appreciated allthe wisdom that Tamsen has
brought to our discussion today.
So thank you so much, Tamsen,for being here.
Tamsen Webster (36:29):
Oh my gosh, this was super fun.
I don't I don't often get to,like you know, go back to my, to
my master's degree in likecrisis communications and and so
this is like super fun.
I'm like, yay, this is super.
But again, like it's so much ofa background in marketing is,
you know it's, it's, it'scustomer experience adjacent,
and that's you know and I thinkso many of the things that
you're talking about when you'retalking about go straight to
(36:50):
implementation.
check all the boxes.
You know I could see that, youknow, back in the early parts of
my career with the very samething.
People are like well, do wehave a website?
Can we make it green?
Like, let's make it spin.
And it's just like whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Like, does it matter if it'sgreen or spinning if the people
we are trying to talk to wouldnever understand or agree with
it in the first place?
Jeannie Walters (37:11):
Right.
Tamsen Webster (37:12):
N o.
So really to me, like that, itis like that is the, the, that
is like my kind of called armsright, like um, to say, listen,
we've just we need to startthere.
We need to start with whatwe're doing, why we're doing it
that way and what we can stand ahundred percent behind as our
(37:33):
justification for that.
And it's not data, it's notdata.
It's a logical explanation ofour beliefs.
Jeannie Walters (37:40):
Yes, well, I think you and I are going to
lead the charge there.
We've got, we're on the horse,we're, we're riding out.
So well, thank you for beinghere and you know, I know we'll
talk again very soon.
Tamsen Webster (37:53):
Sure we will will.
I'm looking forward to it.
All right, thanks so much,thank you.
Jeannie Walters (37:58):
And thank you for being here, for listening
and for watching with us, andthank you for all the work you
do as customer experienceleaders.
Now, for those of you who don'tknow, this is an unusual
episode once a month that we do,but overall, I'm here to answer
your questions, so please leaveme a voicemail at askjeannievip
(38:18):
and I will answer your questionon the podcast.
Keep learning, keep leading,and I will see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.