The most dangerous number in customer experience isn’t low—it’s shiny. In this CX Pulse Check, we unpack why a single score can seduce teams into storytelling that investors love and customers don’t feel, and we make a case for the harder, more honest work of proving value creation by cohort, not by kudos. With Rob Markey of Bain & Company and Harvard Business School, we discuss whether customer metrics predict growth or distract from it, and we separate real loyalty from repeat purchase.
We go straight at the NPS debate: what the score can predict, where it fails, and how it becomes powerful only as part of a system that links feedback to actions that change renewal, cross-sell, referrals, and cost-to-serve. We talk airlines, captive markets, and the language games behind “loyalty” programs that purchase repetition without building emotional commitment. Then we get practical. You’ll hear a little about how to read interaction telemetry for risk signals, and build models that translate service performance—wait times, abandon rates, repeat contacts—into forward revenue forecasts your CFO will respect.
This is a great listen for leaders who want both heart and proof: real-time feedback to understand emotion and expectation shifts, behavioral data to see what customers actually do, and investor-ready visuals like tenure curves and revenue per customer by acquisition year. If you’ve ever wondered how to tell a CX story that earns budget because it earns returns, tune in to this conversation.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with your team, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Then send in a question you want us to tackle next at askJeannie.vip.
About Rob Markey
Advisory Partner, Bain & Company
Senior Lecturer, Harvard Business School
Rob Markey (https://robmarkey.com) is a Senior Lecturer at Harvard Business School and an advisory partner at Bain & Company. The creator of the Net Promoter System, he has spent more than three decades helping companies grow by earning customer loyalty and increasing the value of their customer relationships.
He teaches Managing Service Operations in the MBA program at HBS and hosts the Customer Confidential podcast, where he speaks with leaders building customer-centric businesses.
He is the co-author of The Ultimate Question 2.0 and a leading voice in the movement toward Customer Capitalism.
Follow Rob on...
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmarkey/
Articles Mentioned:
- The American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI): Quarter 3, 2025 - A Threat Potentially More Damaging Than the Great Recession (American Customer Satisfaction Index) -- https://theacsi.org/news-and-resources/press-releases/2025/11/13/press-release-national-acsi-q3-2025/
- CoStar (CSGP) Q3 2025 Earnings Call Transcript (The Motley Fool) -- https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2025/10/28/costar-csgp-q3-2025-earnings-call-transcript/
Want to ask a question? Visit askjeannie.vip to leave Jeannie a voicemail! (And don't forget to follow Jeannie on LinkedIn! www.linkedin.com/in/jeanniewalters/)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeannie Walters (00:09):
Welcome to CX Pulse Check, where I check in on
what's happening in the worldaround customer experience with
a special co-host.
Now, I'm Jeannie Walters, CEOand founder of Experience
Investigators, and I am thrilledto welcome today Rob Markey,
who is with Bain and teaches atHarvard and does all sorts of
(00:30):
cool things.
So, Rob, welcome.
I would love for you to share alittle bit more about your
background and what you're doingtoday.
Rob Markey (00:37):
Well, thanks, Jeannie.
It's really nice to be on theshow.
And I I think you know I'm I'ma fan of yours.
Um yeah, I'm I've been at Bainfor 35 years.
I founded the customerpractice.
I helped create something wecall the Net Promoter System.
Jeannie Walters (00:53):
I left that out.
I I just, you know.
Rob Markey (00:55):
No.
Well, then some people it'sit's negative for some people,
right?
Like the there's some peopledon't fully understand the
difference between a score and asystem of action.
It's fine.
Um it's too bad, but it's fine.
And uh yeah, for the lastcouple of years I've been
teaching the MBA students atHarvard Business School uh about
(01:19):
how to think about you knowrunning and and designing and
improving service operations andorganizations.
Jeannie Walters (01:27):
Excellent.
Well, I'm just excited to seethat customer experience is
having a little bit of a momentin education right now.
I'm seeing more programs.
We're starting to reallyunderstand that business is more
than just the back-endprocesses, and we have to really
understand how tooperationalize things in order
to deliver for the customer.
(01:47):
So it we're not quite thereyet, right?
Like there aren't there aren'ttoo many people out there doing
what you do, but I'm excited tosee that there is something
happening there.
Rob Markey (01:57):
Well, I will say that one of the one of the
things that I think isinteresting about that is um the
course I'm teaching is a courseI took 35 years ago.
So it's new to some people, butthis is actually many of the
things that I'm teaching mystudents are simply updated
(02:18):
versions of what I was taught.
Jeannie Walters (02:20):
Oh, that's cool.
Rob Markey (02:21):
And so it's I what one it sort of illustrates one
of my beliefs, which is thatnone of the most important
things that are really impactfulin business are truly, you
know, like blindingly new.
They're they're all the themost important ones, the most
impactful ones are really justalmost obvious in hindsight.
Jeannie Walters (02:46):
It's very true.
And I always get a kick out ofthings when they like a couple
of years ago, they posted thatthey found, you know, what they
thought was the world's oldestcustomer complaint letter, and
it was like etched on a stone,you know.
You know, the more the more youlook back, it's kind of like,
oh yeah, we've we've been doingthis for a long time.
Rob Markey (03:07):
It's pretty fundamental.
Jeannie Walters (03:08):
It is, it is pretty fundamental.
So I picked out a few topicsthat I thought we could have fun
with because I know that youand I have had some fascinating
discussions about, to yourpoint, NPS, and also just kind
of how we approach understandingthe business impact of the work
we do with customers and howthey feel and all those things.
(03:29):
So the first thing I grabbedwas really a press release, but
this is a press release from theAmerican Customer Satisfaction
Index, which is a well-knownorganization that tracks these
things.
And the uh subtitle here.
So this is the AmericanCustomer Satisfaction Index,
also known as the ACSI.
(03:50):
They're quarter three 2025 umpress release.
And the the subhead here says athreat potentially more
damaging than the GreatRecession, the decoupling of
seller profits from buyerutility.
Now, that I'm gonna arguethat's not the most elegant
subhead.
Rob Markey (04:13):
It's it's certainly not written.
It's it's certainly written ina bit of jargon, isn't it?
Jeannie Walters (04:17):
It is.
And uh, but essentially whatwhat they were saying was, you
know, if we are seeing that someof these customer sentiments
might go up, but maybe it's notreflected in the finances.
And you know, how can we makesense of all of these things?
So I'm I'm really curious onyour take on this.
Rob Markey (04:37):
You know, I think that it's a great example of um
a way in which sometimessometimes metrics don't a single
metric doesn't reflect whatyou're looking for.
Because in some ways, these aresort of textbook definitions of
bad profits, companies that areextracting value from customers
rather than creating it.
You know, they're hittingcorner learning.
(05:00):
Can you say more about that? Whatdo you mean when you say
extracting value versus creatingit?
What do you mean by that?
Well, so so the essence of what creates uh, you
know, in my language, a promoteris when you deliver so much
value to a customer relative totheir expectations, relative to
what they could get elsewhere,relative to what they're paying
(05:22):
for it, that they find itremarkable.
You know, that they they theyyou've made their life better in
some material way, which makesthem happy to pay whatever price
you're charging.
So happy, in fact, that they'remotivated to share that with
friends, share that with lovedones.
(05:42):
But when that's not true,right, when the opposite is
true, when people feel resentfulor angry or upset, when a
company doesn't deliver what ithas promised or what it what is
expected in a significant waybecause they're overcharging or
(06:04):
because they're under-resourcingor under-delivering.
That's what that's what we tendto call bad profits.
Things that are that areextracting value from the
customer relative to what thecustomer could, you know, could
or should get.
And I think that when we often talk about, I call it, the magic metric sometimes. Right? People sometimes say, oh, we need, we've got the one thing and we're gonna figure out everything.
(06:33):
If we're not connecting that towhat are we trying to do as an
organization, like what are weactually trying to achieve?
Are we actually trying to um,you know, get those referrals?
Are we trying to get morerenewals?
Or are the wheels falling offthe bus?
Like, are we not reallydelivering the basics?
And that's why we'redisappointing people.
(06:53):
I think there's a mind game weplay sometimes with looking at
these metrics where we takethose things apart.
You know, it's also worth exploring, Jeannie,
because I don't know this.
But you know, there can be alot of reasons why over extended
periods of time profits orgrowth are decoupled from
(07:17):
satisfaction.
One moment when that tends tohappen is when for some reason
the companies that we're lookingat, the score, the metrics
we're looking at, are when thesecompanies are acquiring
customers for whom the valueproposition is not quite right.
So you can get companies thatare that are growing into new
(07:43):
segments that are where they'rebasically discounting their way
in or they're they're buyingtheir growth.
In which case, in the shortrun, they tend to show top line,
you know, everything lookslooks pretty decent.
But in the long run, they'redestroying shareholder value and
they're making their their ownlives more difficult several
(08:06):
quarters out when they can'tcontinue that growth.
They can't, they're they're notgenerating the earnings that
they expect.
Jeannie Walters (08:14):
Yeah.
Rob Markey (08:15):
So that could be one source of of what's going on
here in some cases.
And another source could easilybe, you know, organizations in
a in a time of real uncertainty,raising prices faster than
they're raising the valuethey're delivering.
And that tends to reallyfrustrate customers.
Jeannie Walters (08:38):
Indeed.
And we're seeing thateverywhere right now, aren't we,
with just the the increase incosts of products and you know
delivery and everything else.
Rob Markey (08:50):
It doesn't tend to last forever.
Jeannie Walters (08:54):
We hope so.
We hope so, Rob.
Rob Markey (08:56):
Well, no, I mean it it eventually, right?
What has to in in any givenindustry, if if customers are
fundamentally dissatisfied, itinvites new entrants, it invites
innovation.
And unless there is astructural reason that that
innovation or those new entrantsare prevented from getting in,
(09:18):
there's some sort of naturalmonopoly, or there's regulation
that prevents competition, orpeople are are captive, right?
Like if you're in if you livein certain cities that are only
served primarily by one airline,yeah, you're captive.
And in fact, if you reallydisaggregate the, for example,
we we look at NPS for each ofthe airlines in each major
(09:42):
market, and consistently everyairline it has a lower NPS in
their hub city.
Why?
Because there are customers inthose cities who don't have a
choice.
They don't like that airline,but they don't have a choice.
Jeannie Walters (09:55):
Yep.
And I think that's where alsothose loyalty programs have done
a good and sometimes not sogood job at that, because once
you get into one of those as acustomer, it's really hard to
break away, even when you getdisappointed or things aren't
working or whatever.
And um, it's funny when youknow you and I are both
(10:19):
travelers and I'll see differentpeople in air airline lounges,
and we talk about like, oh, youwon't believe I had to fly the
other one because there wasn't adirect flight or whatever.
It's like it's it's verydisruptive, and it feels very
disruptive if you're kind ofattached to those loyalty
programs too.
So that whole industry
Rob Markey (10:37):
Please stop calling them loyalty programs.
Jeannie Walters (10:38):
Right.
Rob Markey (10:39):
Call them, call them what they are, which is rewards
programs.
Jeannie Walters (10:42):
Yeah, that's a very good point, too.
Yeah, exactly.
Rob Markey (10:44):
They encourage behavioral loyalty, they don't
necessarily or better said,repeat purchases.
But in my my lingo, loyalty isan emotional connection, it's a
it's a commitment that comesfrom a different place than
habit or uh you know purelyrational benefit.
And some of the to be fair,some of the rewards programs do
(11:09):
offer experiential and emotionalbenefits that that are you know
better than than discounts andfree flights and and all that
stuff.
But if the acid test is, youknow, if a if a customer lost
those benefits, would theyremain, quote, loyal to that
(11:31):
airline?
Yeah, that's that's the issue.
That's what you're raising.
Jeannie Walters (11:37):
I think the uh the business leaders, you know,
asking that question, thatprobably is a tough question to
be honest about in some cases,but I think it's really it's
it's an excellent kind ofchallenge to make sure that we
are delivering enough to createthose emotional connections.
Rob Markey (11:56):
Well, and if I was uh if I was selling a rewards
platform, would I what would Icall it?
Would I call it a rewardsplatform?
No, I'd call it a loyaltyplatform because it sounds
better, but it's really not.
Jeannie Walters (12:08):
Yep, exactly, exactly.
Well, and that's I mean, thesame thing can be said about the
word satisfaction, right?
Like people have never said,you know, how's your marriage
going?
I'm satisfied, right?
Like that is not that is not anemotionally charged word at
all.
Rob Markey (12:25):
No, well, it's a low bar, right?
And that's that's actually, youknow, again, I I don't I want
to don't want to hammer on NPS.
I but one of the reasons thatwe that we like the likelihood
to recommend questions becauseit distinguishes versus mere
satisfaction.
Jeannie Walters (12:44):
So one of the things, and you have seen the
roller coaster of how NPS hasbeen used in the market, how I
mean you expressed now how youknow some people don't
understand exactly that it's youcan't the score doesn't
actually do anything, right?
Like if you get the score,that's great, but that doesn't
(13:04):
really move mountains.
We need to assign action andmake sure it's part of this
bigger systemic thing.
But at the same time, peoplelove the score, people love
reporting on it, people lovesharing it.
And this next example I have isuh from and I've never done
this on CX Pulse Check, so thisis a first.
(13:24):
Instead of a like classic mediapiece, um, what I wanted to
share was an earnings calltranscript, which, you know,
again, super great headlinehere.
So co-star Q3 2025 earningscall transcript.
And the reason, and this isfrom the Motley Fool, and the
(13:47):
reason that I wanted to sharethis is because there was a lot
of discussion about NPS in thisearnings call.
And this is the organizationthat has homes.com and
apartments.com specifically, andthey saw a lot of you know good
results and they talked aboutthat.
So I was just seeing this aslike, you know, they they were
(14:11):
almost referring to it as uhforward-looking indicators.
And I think a lot of times NPSis a lagging indicator.
Rob Markey (14:19):
So explain what you mean by that.
Jeannie Walters (14:22):
So I think that when when I was looking at this
transcript, one of the thingsthat stood out was that they
were really saying, like, we'reseeing all this great growth in
usage in the company, but thenwe're also seeing all this great
growth in NPS.
So we expect all of this tocontinue, right?
Like we they were using it thatway.
I think a lot of times when NPSis reported on, it's this is
(14:45):
how people have told us they'vefelt, and it's not tied to
really looking ahead as much asit should be, in my opinion.
So I would love to hear your
Rob Markey (14:55):
Well, and it it just help me because I don't it's
not an argument I've heard a lotbefore, and I've heard a lot of
arguments.
Um, so I'm just trying tounderstand as opposed to what,
like what would be a good umfuture indicator.
Jeannie Walters (15:10):
Well, I think in CX, we have a big problem
with this.
I I think this is part of theproblem, is that we don't always
uh understand how to look atleading indicators.
I would argue that instead ofhaving the one, again, metric or
score as a leading indicator,what we have to do is look at
what are what are the behaviorsthat customers are showing us
(15:33):
that are on the you know umupswing as we look forward or
downswing.
What are the uh analyticstelling us about how they're
behaving on the digital channelsand things like that?
Okay, and we have to put thattogether with all of it.
Rob Markey (15:48):
So let's let's walk through this because I think
this is a misconception that Ithink I feel like I might be in
your Harvard class right now.
So No, that's okay.
Sorry.
Jeannie Walters (15:57):
No, it's good.
Rob Markey (15:58):
No, but I I I just I want to make sure that I'm
understanding it right.
Because the way that I thinkabout it, Jeannie, is um what I
really want, what I really wantto know is are customers have I
are the actions I'm takingresulting in customers staying
longer, buying more, tellingtheir friends, giving me better
(16:19):
price realization, engaging inmore cross-sell or upsell, um,
being lower cost to serve,right?
The things that drive the valueof the customer base.
Now NPS or the any any of theother survey-based metrics that
are good, some aren't, but theythey're at their best when they
(16:45):
predict with reasonable accuracythe difference, like they they
they explain variance in acustomer's future likelihood to
stay longer, buy more, telltheir friends.
In that way, those things areevident much faster than the
(17:07):
metrics of the telemetry on thebusiness, I'll call it.
Because I can I can have aninteraction with you, Jeannie,
in which I disappoint you badly.
And if I get your feedback fromthat, whether it's you reaching
out or responding to a requestfor feedback, that's you know,
(17:30):
an NPS, whatever, I can findthat out like within days or
even hours of the time thatyou're and therefore, if I know
that that's also predictive ofyour future behavior, I have a
leading indicator.
But if I wait to see when youattrite or churn, I wait to see
(17:51):
whether you buy more orcross-sell, I wait to see
whether you become lower cost toserve.
I mean, those things aren'tavailable for months and months
and months.
Jeannie Walters (18:03):
Right.
Rob Markey (18:04):
So I'm just trying to get a handle on what am I
missing?
What am I misunderstanding?
Jeannie Walters (18:10):
So I think the the key is exactly what you
said, where there's always agap, right, between what humans
do this.
We remember things a littledifferently.
The further away we get, we wecreate our own narrative, all of
those things happen.
So I think that right now we'rekind of in the beginning, in my
opinion, of the age ofreal-time feedback in the
(18:34):
moment.
And part of that is not justwhat people tell us, but it's
how they actually behave and theactions they're actually
taking.
Because we're very good atsaying one thing and behaving
differently as humans, right?
Rob Markey (18:49):
Absolutely.
What we say is often animperfect prediction of what we
will do.
Jeannie Walters (18:57):
That is a very diplomatic way of saying that.
Rob Markey (18:59):
And I mean I want McDonald's to have healthier
choice options on the menu, andthen nobody buys them.
Jeannie Walters (19:06):
Exactly.
And so I think what I'm sayingis a lot of times we we wait to
get that feedback.
We also rely on just whatcustomers are sharing in their
feedback as kind of theindicator.
And in some cases, well, inmost cases, it's really
important to your point.
If we are looking at we want tohave, you know, higher purchase
(19:29):
value, we want more renewals,we want lower cost to serve,
then we want to make sure thatwhat they're saying is actually
how they're going to behave.
And I think that's the gap thatI see is that a lot of times
leaders get very excited aboutthe feedback scores and they get
very excited about what they'rehearing.
But that's because they'reasking people maybe, you know, a
(19:53):
week after, and people say,Yeah, it was fine, you know, it
was good.
But they're not connecting withthose small moments that we can
actually make those positivechanges so that somebody will
feel more exceptionally about itor want to share with it, or
all of those things.
So I think we just have toconnect behavior and action with
(20:15):
uh what people tell us, thatfeedback, more directly and more
real time than a lot oforganizations either want to or
are capable of today.
Rob Markey (20:29):
I guess if if what you had said, you didn't say
what I expected you to say.
If what you had said is todaywe have the ability to use
telemetry on the interactionsthat customers have with us to
generate predictive models ofwhat they would have said if
they were answering a survey, orthat are that are even more
(20:51):
predictive of their futurelikelihood to stay longer, buy
more, tell their friends, andall the drivers of customer
value.
And we can have that availableto us as soon as that
interaction is over.
It's literally we can read thethe data and run it through our
model.
If that's what you were saying,then I'd say, yeah, I mean, I
(21:13):
want in the moment ability toread what's going on at scale
across all of my customer base,not just the handful of people
who respond to a survey.
What is challenging about thatsometimes, well, a lot of times,
is that what I can't tell fromthat telemetry is how you feel
(21:38):
about it.
And I also still don't havewell, I can and and those models
they're built on historicalunderstanding of the link
between the outcomes ofinteractions, you know, like
let's say an address change or afee dispute or a billing
question.
They're they're based on theoutcomes of those as they
(22:02):
predict future customerbehavior.
Those are good models, andwe've been building them for
five or seven years, as long aspeople have had the analytics
available to do them.
And they still just lack theheart that you get out of real
customers telling you how itfeels.
(22:23):
I know the anger, the rage, thefrustration.
You also lack the ability tosee how those expectations are
changing in the moment.
And so when you only are usingmodels that are built on
(22:43):
historical data, your modelsalways lag a little bit what's
going on with customers today,based on their experiences in
other industries, with othervendors, and so on.
And so we we marry the twotogether so that we get a better
forward-looking prediction ofwhat, how, how our average speed
(23:04):
of answer, how our call abandonrate, how our first-time
resolution is likely to impactour financial performance and
what is driving that, as well asthe downstream impact that's
likely to have on cross-sell,upsell, and and the other things
that drive value.
Jeannie Walters (23:25):
And I think we are in this really interesting
age right now because a lot ofthe organizations that I'm
seeing, they're they're simplynot there.
They're not they're not matureenough to have that.
Or I'm sure you're seeing thistoo, their data is a mess,
right?
So they are trying to connectall these dots, and they
(23:46):
realize, like, oh, we havetotally different data sets in
these different parts of ourorganization, and this isn't
gonna work, and all of thesethings.
And I'm curious about this withyou.
I also am really bothfascinated and a little hesitant
about some of the things thatare trying to, to your point,
(24:08):
capture those emotions beforesomebody has to tell us, right?
So facial recognition software,like all these things that are
now the voice uh kind ofanalysis that can tell tell you
the anxiety level is going up.
Rob Markey (24:26):
So I I have clients who are testing all these
things, and that's not ready forprimary.
Jeannie Walters (24:31):
I would agree.
Rob Markey (24:32):
It's it's on its way.
It's on its way, but we're notwe're not there.
That from a practicalperspective, the kinds of things
that people could be deployingover the next, you know, six,
twelve, eighteen months.
For me, the thing that I wouldbe doing right away is A, I
would be deploying cohortedcustomer analytics so that you
(24:54):
can tell whether individualgroups of customers are varying
from their your their expectedbehaviors in terms of their
interaction frequency, theirpurchase frequency, the average
order value, and all that.
And I would be developingpredictive models of future
customer behavior that are basedon characteristics of the
(25:15):
interactions they're havingtoday.
So I know if it took me, youknow, 90 minutes to get a live
person, or if it's the sixthphone call in a week, or if it,
you know, there's lots of I knowthat that was a bad
interaction, and I know how manyof those were, and I know what
(25:36):
the pattern of sources of of,you know, like was it do did we
experience a significantincrease in abandon rate?
And what that is likely to meanin terms of financial impact.
Jeannie Walters (25:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rob Markey (25:52):
That's that I I would be doing that today
because it's all possible to doeasily.
And it doesn't require fancynew technology that is not ready
for prime time.
Jeannie Walters (26:04):
Well, and the other thing that I've seen is
that sometimes we say, uh, youknow, we look at some, we know,
we look at something and we go,this is a terrible way to treat
customers, right?
And we all agree.
And then somebody says, well,we should we should do a survey
or we should do this.
And it's like, that's where Ithink we sometimes we have to
(26:24):
take customer experience leadersback or the people who talk
about it and say, okay, stop.
What are we trying to do here?
Right?
Like go back to the what are wetrying to do for the customer
and what are we trying to do forthe organization?
Rob Markey (26:37):
Well, let's go back to the article that you that
kicked this off, right?
We never really talked aboutthe article.
I mean, one of the things Ilike about what CoStar is doing
is something that customercompanies should do.
It's that they're they'retaking, they're talking to
investors about customer loyaltyand renewal together, right?
They're talking about the thingthat drives financial
(26:59):
performance along with thatsurvey-based metric.
So they're at least trying tolink a CX metric with concrete
outcomes like renewal rates andbookings.
That's a good thing.
But I don't know what they're Idon't know how they're
collecting their NPS.
I don't know.
Like, I'm not, I don't trustany company's self-reported NPS
(27:21):
as meaningful.
The in even an increase, Idon't know if they change their
methodology.
Jeannie Walters (27:27):
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Rob Markey (27:29):
So when when CoStar is talking or homes.com, when
they're talking about their NPSgoing up and all that stuff,
great.
I'm much more excited about thefact that their renewal rates
are up.
I'm much more excited about thefact that they're actually
getting more revenue percustomer.
Like those are things that thatmatter.
I'd rather see them, I'd I'dmuch more value a company like
(27:53):
that reporting tenure cohortretention and spending than
telling me about their NPS.
And I'm the NPS guy, like Idon't want to know your NPS.
I want to know are the qualityof customers you're acquiring
and the performance of thecustomers you're acquiring
better now than it was in thepast.
Jeannie Walters (28:12):
Yeah.
Well, and I think going back toour conversation too about we
have to continue to adapt andchange and innovate based on
changing customer expectationsright now, too.
And they're changing so quicklythat what what I the reason I
pulled this for us to talk aboutwas because I think that a lot
(28:36):
of times the narratives outthere are either look at NPS as
the shiny thing, right?
And yeah, exactly.
Like, hey, it's over here, anddon't pay attention to the
what's actually happening, or orthe opposite, where um, to your
point, it doesn't have theheart, it doesn't have like the
emotion.
And I like to like nobody'sbeen moved by a spreadsheet,
(28:59):
right?
Like nobody's looked at thatand said, Oh my gosh, that's
that's really powerful.
But they are moved by theemotion when we
Rob Markey (29:07):
If I'm fair, if I'm trying to be fair to the
management team, right?
What they're doing is they'resaying, investors, because
that's who they're talking to inan earnings call, they're
saying, investors, you shouldhave confidence in the
strategies that we're pursuingbecause they're resulting in
better customer satisfaction orNPS, which in turn is going to
drive new subscribers, betterretention, better revenue per
(29:32):
subscriber, you know, so on andso forth.
And the leap of faith that'srequired is caused by the fact
that they don't actually providereliable evidence of cohorted
customer performance.
What is the retention curve?
(29:52):
What does that look like?
What are the what are therevenues per customer in the
last for customers acquired ineach of the last five years?
That kind of stuff would giveinvestors real confidence.
So they're using a hand wavymetric like NPS to substitute
for what they really should beproviding.
Jeannie Walters (30:10):
Yeah, and at the same time, I appreciate that
they did connect these things.
And it's a they're trying totell a narrative, which you know
everybody is when they're doingthese types of calls.
But the uh but I think thatthere's uh again, I feel like
we're having these conversationsthat might be at the at the
start of a different journey foreverybody where we're getting
(30:33):
more real-time information,we're starting to connect the
dots more.
We are getting better data inmany cases than we we could even
access a couple years ago.
And so there's all theseexciting things happening.
And at the same time, we haveto guide people, we have to make
sure we know what story we'retrying to tell.
(30:53):
And my point about like notbeing moved by spreadsheets,
it's so easy to fall into like,here's the report, here's the
dashboard, here's this.
And then after a while, peoplego, Oh, okay, because the
numbers don't change all thatmuch from quarter to quarter
often.
And so we need to continue totap into that emotional side of
(31:14):
what are our customers actuallydoing and saying, and how are we
impacting their lives?
And that's when you startseeing people.
I mean, nothing moves anexecutive team more than playing
a recording of one of thoselike horrible call center calls,
and they start realizing, like,oh, these are real people, and
this is having a big impact.
And we made somebody cry,right?
(31:36):
Like, that's different thanthat.
So I think there's a lothappening just in the whole
world.
I'm gonna skip the third one.
This was too much fun.
We had too much fun on thisone.
So um, but this was great.
And I know uh if we wanted to,we could talk a lot longer.
So thank you for sharing allthis with us.
(31:56):
And you know, what what areyour thoughts?
Right.
If I said to you today, like,what do you think CX leaders
should look for in the next yearor two?
Like, what should they bethinking of?
And how what are some of thethings that you're seeing?
If if I'm gonna put you on thespot and ask you for like
concise.
Rob Markey (32:14):
No, no.
Well, there's only there's onlya couple things that really
matter, Jeannie.
One is are the actions I'mtaking growing the value of the
customer base, yeah, and whatare the indicators that that is
happening?
And the other is how can I atscale learn and improve or drive
(32:36):
in my organization learning andimprovement faster, easier, and
at lower cost.
If you're working those twothings, everything else is gonna
line up.
If what you're doing is you'reyou're you're you know measuring
more precisely your score, goodluck.
Jeannie Walters (32:56):
You heard it from the NPS guy yourself here.
So I hope that everybody waspaying attention.
Uh, this was great.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
And if people do want to learnmore about you or follow you,
what are the best ways for themto do that?
Rob Markey (33:12):
I mean, the easiest things to do are look at
robmarkey.com.
That's a simple one.
You can find me on LinkedIn orum even Bain and Company has
plenty of stuff that you canfind.
Jeannie Walters (33:23):
Excellent.
Well, we'll put that all in theshow notes.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
It's always a pleasure and uh,you know, a little bit of an
intellectual workout having aconversation with you, which I
appreciate very much.
Rob Markey (33:35):
I'm sorry.
Jeannie Walters (33:36):
No, it's great.
It's great.
I love it.
I love it.
So uh thank you for being herethen.
And of course, thank all of youfor being here on CX Pulse
Check, another episode of theExperience Action Podcast.
We will have another greatquestion from one of you in our
next episode.
Don't forget, you can leave mea question at askjeannie.vip.
(33:56):
Thanks for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to CX Pulse Check, where I check in on
what's happening in the worldaround customer experience with
a special co-host.
Now, I'm Jeannie Walters, CEOand founder of Experience
Investigators, and I am thrilledto welcome today Rob Markey,
who is with Bain and teaches atHarvard and does all sorts of
(00:30):
cool things.
So, Rob, welcome.
I would love for you to share alittle bit more about your
background and what you're doingtoday.
Rob Markey (00:37):
Well, thanks, Jeannie.
It's really nice to be on theshow.
And I I think you know I'm I'ma fan of yours.
Um yeah, I'm I've been at Bainfor 35 years.
I founded the customerpractice.
I helped create something wecall the Net Promoter System.
Jeannie Walters (00:53):
I left that out.
I I just, you know.
Rob Markey (00:55):
No.
Well, then some people it'sit's negative for some people,
right?
Like the there's some peopledon't fully understand the
difference between a score and asystem of action.
It's fine.
Um it's too bad, but it's fine.
And uh yeah, for the lastcouple of years I've been
teaching the MBA students atHarvard Business School uh about
(01:19):
how to think about you knowrunning and and designing and
improving service operations andorganizations.
Jeannie Walters (01:27):
Excellent.
Well, I'm just excited to seethat customer experience is
having a little bit of a momentin education right now.
I'm seeing more programs.
We're starting to reallyunderstand that business is more
than just the back-endprocesses, and we have to really
understand how tooperationalize things in order
to deliver for the customer.
(01:47):
So it we're not quite thereyet, right?
Like there aren't there aren'ttoo many people out there doing
what you do, but I'm excited tosee that there is something
happening there.
Rob Markey (01:57):
Well, I will say that one of the one of the
things that I think isinteresting about that is um the
course I'm teaching is a courseI took 35 years ago.
So it's new to some people, butthis is actually many of the
things that I'm teaching mystudents are simply updated
(02:18):
versions of what I was taught.
Jeannie Walters (02:20):
Oh, that's cool.
Rob Markey (02:21):
And so it's I what one it sort of illustrates one
of my beliefs, which is thatnone of the most important
things that are really impactfulin business are truly, you
know, like blindingly new.
They're they're all the themost important ones, the most
impactful ones are really justalmost obvious in hindsight.
Jeannie Walters (02:46):
It's very true.
And I always get a kick out ofthings when they like a couple
of years ago, they posted thatthey found, you know, what they
thought was the world's oldestcustomer complaint letter, and
it was like etched on a stone,you know.
You know, the more the more youlook back, it's kind of like,
oh yeah, we've we've been doingthis for a long time.
Rob Markey (03:07):
It's pretty fundamental.
Jeannie Walters (03:08):
It is, it is pretty fundamental.
So I picked out a few topicsthat I thought we could have fun
with because I know that youand I have had some fascinating
discussions about, to yourpoint, NPS, and also just kind
of how we approach understandingthe business impact of the work
we do with customers and howthey feel and all those things.
(03:29):
So the first thing I grabbedwas really a press release, but
this is a press release from theAmerican Customer Satisfaction
Index, which is a well-knownorganization that tracks these
things.
And the uh subtitle here.
So this is the AmericanCustomer Satisfaction Index,
also known as the ACSI.
(03:50):
They're quarter three 2025 umpress release.
And the the subhead here says athreat potentially more
damaging than the GreatRecession, the decoupling of
seller profits from buyerutility.
Now, that I'm gonna arguethat's not the most elegant
subhead.
Rob Markey (04:13):
It's it's certainly not written.
It's it's certainly written ina bit of jargon, isn't it?
Jeannie Walters (04:17):
It is.
And uh, but essentially whatwhat they were saying was, you
know, if we are seeing that someof these customer sentiments
might go up, but maybe it's notreflected in the finances.
And you know, how can we makesense of all of these things?
So I'm I'm really curious onyour take on this.
Rob Markey (04:37):
You know, I think that it's a great example of um
a way in which sometimessometimes metrics don't a single
metric doesn't reflect whatyou're looking for.
Because in some ways, these aresort of textbook definitions of
bad profits, companies that areextracting value from customers
rather than creating it.
You know, they're hittingcorner learning.
(05:00):
Can you say more about that? Whatdo you mean when you say
extracting value versus creatingit?
What do you mean by that?
Well, so so the essence of what creates uh, you
know, in my language, a promoteris when you deliver so much
value to a customer relative totheir expectations, relative to
what they could get elsewhere,relative to what they're paying
(05:22):
for it, that they find itremarkable.
You know, that they they theyyou've made their life better in
some material way, which makesthem happy to pay whatever price
you're charging.
So happy, in fact, that they'remotivated to share that with
friends, share that with lovedones.
(05:42):
But when that's not true,right, when the opposite is
true, when people feel resentfulor angry or upset, when a
company doesn't deliver what ithas promised or what it what is
expected in a significant waybecause they're overcharging or
(06:04):
because they're under-resourcingor under-delivering.
That's what that's what we tendto call bad profits.
Things that are that areextracting value from the
customer relative to what thecustomer could, you know, could
or should get.
And I think that when we often talk about, I call it, the magic metric sometimes. Right? People sometimes say, oh, we need, we've got the one thing and we're gonna figure out everything.
(06:33):
If we're not connecting that towhat are we trying to do as an
organization, like what are weactually trying to achieve?
Are we actually trying to um,you know, get those referrals?
Are we trying to get morerenewals?
Or are the wheels falling offthe bus?
Like, are we not reallydelivering the basics?
And that's why we'redisappointing people.
(06:53):
I think there's a mind game weplay sometimes with looking at
these metrics where we takethose things apart.
You know, it's also worth exploring, Jeannie,
because I don't know this.
But you know, there can be alot of reasons why over extended
periods of time profits orgrowth are decoupled from
(07:17):
satisfaction.
One moment when that tends tohappen is when for some reason
the companies that we're lookingat, the score, the metrics
we're looking at, are when thesecompanies are acquiring
customers for whom the valueproposition is not quite right.
So you can get companies thatare that are growing into new
(07:43):
segments that are where they'rebasically discounting their way
in or they're they're buyingtheir growth.
In which case, in the shortrun, they tend to show top line,
you know, everything lookslooks pretty decent.
But in the long run, they'redestroying shareholder value and
they're making their their ownlives more difficult several
(08:06):
quarters out when they can'tcontinue that growth.
They can't, they're they're notgenerating the earnings that
they expect.
Jeannie Walters (08:14):
Yeah.
Rob Markey (08:15):
So that could be one source of of what's going on
here in some cases.
And another source could easilybe, you know, organizations in
a in a time of real uncertainty,raising prices faster than
they're raising the valuethey're delivering.
And that tends to reallyfrustrate customers.
Jeannie Walters (08:38):
Indeed.
And we're seeing thateverywhere right now, aren't we,
with just the the increase incosts of products and you know
delivery and everything else.
Rob Markey (08:50):
It doesn't tend to last forever.
Jeannie Walters (08:54):
We hope so.
We hope so, Rob.
Rob Markey (08:56):
Well, no, I mean it it eventually, right?
What has to in in any givenindustry, if if customers are
fundamentally dissatisfied, itinvites new entrants, it invites
innovation.
And unless there is astructural reason that that
innovation or those new entrantsare prevented from getting in,
(09:18):
there's some sort of naturalmonopoly, or there's regulation
that prevents competition, orpeople are are captive, right?
Like if you're in if you livein certain cities that are only
served primarily by one airline,yeah, you're captive.
And in fact, if you reallydisaggregate the, for example,
we we look at NPS for each ofthe airlines in each major
(09:42):
market, and consistently everyairline it has a lower NPS in
their hub city.
Why?
Because there are customers inthose cities who don't have a
choice.
They don't like that airline,but they don't have a choice.
Jeannie Walters (09:55):
Yep.
And I think that's where alsothose loyalty programs have done
a good and sometimes not sogood job at that, because once
you get into one of those as acustomer, it's really hard to
break away, even when you getdisappointed or things aren't
working or whatever.
And um, it's funny when youknow you and I are both
(10:19):
travelers and I'll see differentpeople in air airline lounges,
and we talk about like, oh, youwon't believe I had to fly the
other one because there wasn't adirect flight or whatever.
It's like it's it's verydisruptive, and it feels very
disruptive if you're kind ofattached to those loyalty
programs too.
So that whole industry
Rob Markey (10:37):
Please stop calling them loyalty programs.
Jeannie Walters (10:38):
Right.
Rob Markey (10:39):
Call them, call them what they are, which is rewards
programs.
Jeannie Walters (10:42):
Yeah, that's a very good point, too.
Yeah, exactly.
Rob Markey (10:44):
They encourage behavioral loyalty, they don't
necessarily or better said,repeat purchases.
But in my my lingo, loyalty isan emotional connection, it's a
it's a commitment that comesfrom a different place than
habit or uh you know purelyrational benefit.
And some of the to be fair,some of the rewards programs do
(11:09):
offer experiential and emotionalbenefits that that are you know
better than than discounts andfree flights and and all that
stuff.
But if the acid test is, youknow, if a if a customer lost
those benefits, would theyremain, quote, loyal to that
(11:31):
airline?
Yeah, that's that's the issue.
That's what you're raising.
Jeannie Walters (11:37):
I think the uh the business leaders, you know,
asking that question, thatprobably is a tough question to
be honest about in some cases,but I think it's really it's
it's an excellent kind ofchallenge to make sure that we
are delivering enough to createthose emotional connections.
Rob Markey (11:56):
Well, and if I was uh if I was selling a rewards
platform, would I what would Icall it?
Would I call it a rewardsplatform?
No, I'd call it a loyaltyplatform because it sounds
better, but it's really not.
Jeannie Walters (12:08):
Yep, exactly, exactly.
Well, and that's I mean, thesame thing can be said about the
word satisfaction, right?
Like people have never said,you know, how's your marriage
going?
I'm satisfied, right?
Like that is not that is not anemotionally charged word at
all.
Rob Markey (12:25):
No, well, it's a low bar, right?
And that's that's actually, youknow, again, I I don't I want
to don't want to hammer on NPS.
I but one of the reasons thatwe that we like the likelihood
to recommend questions becauseit distinguishes versus mere
satisfaction.
Jeannie Walters (12:44):
So one of the things, and you have seen the
roller coaster of how NPS hasbeen used in the market, how I
mean you expressed now how youknow some people don't
understand exactly that it's youcan't the score doesn't
actually do anything, right?
Like if you get the score,that's great, but that doesn't
(13:04):
really move mountains.
We need to assign action andmake sure it's part of this
bigger systemic thing.
But at the same time, peoplelove the score, people love
reporting on it, people lovesharing it.
And this next example I have isuh from and I've never done
this on CX Pulse Check, so thisis a first.
(13:24):
Instead of a like classic mediapiece, um, what I wanted to
share was an earnings calltranscript, which, you know,
again, super great headlinehere.
So co-star Q3 2025 earningscall transcript.
And the reason, and this isfrom the Motley Fool, and the
(13:47):
reason that I wanted to sharethis is because there was a lot
of discussion about NPS in thisearnings call.
And this is the organizationthat has homes.com and
apartments.com specifically, andthey saw a lot of you know good
results and they talked aboutthat.
So I was just seeing this aslike, you know, they they were
(14:11):
almost referring to it as uhforward-looking indicators.
And I think a lot of times NPSis a lagging indicator.
Rob Markey (14:19):
So explain what you mean by that.
Jeannie Walters (14:22):
So I think that when when I was looking at this
transcript, one of the thingsthat stood out was that they
were really saying, like, we'reseeing all this great growth in
usage in the company, but thenwe're also seeing all this great
growth in NPS.
So we expect all of this tocontinue, right?
Like we they were using it thatway.
I think a lot of times when NPSis reported on, it's this is
(14:45):
how people have told us they'vefelt, and it's not tied to
really looking ahead as much asit should be, in my opinion.
So I would love to hear your
Rob Markey (14:55):
Well, and it it just help me because I don't it's
not an argument I've heard a lotbefore, and I've heard a lot of
arguments.
Um, so I'm just trying tounderstand as opposed to what,
like what would be a good umfuture indicator.
Jeannie Walters (15:10):
Well, I think in CX, we have a big problem
with this.
I I think this is part of theproblem, is that we don't always
uh understand how to look atleading indicators.
I would argue that instead ofhaving the one, again, metric or
score as a leading indicator,what we have to do is look at
what are what are the behaviorsthat customers are showing us
(15:33):
that are on the you know umupswing as we look forward or
downswing.
What are the uh analyticstelling us about how they're
behaving on the digital channelsand things like that?
Okay, and we have to put thattogether with all of it.
Rob Markey (15:48):
So let's let's walk through this because I think
this is a misconception that Ithink I feel like I might be in
your Harvard class right now.
So No, that's okay.
Sorry.
Jeannie Walters (15:57):
No, it's good.
Rob Markey (15:58):
No, but I I I just I want to make sure that I'm
understanding it right.
Because the way that I thinkabout it, Jeannie, is um what I
really want, what I really wantto know is are customers have I
are the actions I'm takingresulting in customers staying
longer, buying more, tellingtheir friends, giving me better
(16:19):
price realization, engaging inmore cross-sell or upsell, um,
being lower cost to serve,right?
The things that drive the valueof the customer base.
Now NPS or the any any of theother survey-based metrics that
are good, some aren't, but theythey're at their best when they
(16:45):
predict with reasonable accuracythe difference, like they they
they explain variance in acustomer's future likelihood to
stay longer, buy more, telltheir friends.
In that way, those things areevident much faster than the
(17:07):
metrics of the telemetry on thebusiness, I'll call it.
Because I can I can have aninteraction with you, Jeannie,
in which I disappoint you badly.
And if I get your feedback fromthat, whether it's you reaching
out or responding to a requestfor feedback, that's you know,
(17:30):
an NPS, whatever, I can findthat out like within days or
even hours of the time thatyou're and therefore, if I know
that that's also predictive ofyour future behavior, I have a
leading indicator.
But if I wait to see when youattrite or churn, I wait to see
(17:51):
whether you buy more orcross-sell, I wait to see
whether you become lower cost toserve.
I mean, those things aren'tavailable for months and months
and months.
Jeannie Walters (18:03):
Right.
Rob Markey (18:04):
So I'm just trying to get a handle on what am I
missing?
What am I misunderstanding?
Jeannie Walters (18:10):
So I think the the key is exactly what you
said, where there's always agap, right, between what humans
do this.
We remember things a littledifferently.
The further away we get, we wecreate our own narrative, all of
those things happen.
So I think that right now we'rekind of in the beginning, in my
opinion, of the age ofreal-time feedback in the
(18:34):
moment.
And part of that is not justwhat people tell us, but it's
how they actually behave and theactions they're actually
taking.
Because we're very good atsaying one thing and behaving
differently as humans, right?
Rob Markey (18:49):
Absolutely.
What we say is often animperfect prediction of what we
will do.
Jeannie Walters (18:57):
That is a very diplomatic way of saying that.
Rob Markey (18:59):
And I mean I want McDonald's to have healthier
choice options on the menu, andthen nobody buys them.
Jeannie Walters (19:06):
Exactly.
And so I think what I'm sayingis a lot of times we we wait to
get that feedback.
We also rely on just whatcustomers are sharing in their
feedback as kind of theindicator.
And in some cases, well, inmost cases, it's really
important to your point.
If we are looking at we want tohave, you know, higher purchase
(19:29):
value, we want more renewals,we want lower cost to serve,
then we want to make sure thatwhat they're saying is actually
how they're going to behave.
And I think that's the gap thatI see is that a lot of times
leaders get very excited aboutthe feedback scores and they get
very excited about what they'rehearing.
But that's because they'reasking people maybe, you know, a
(19:53):
week after, and people say,Yeah, it was fine, you know, it
was good.
But they're not connecting withthose small moments that we can
actually make those positivechanges so that somebody will
feel more exceptionally about itor want to share with it, or
all of those things.
So I think we just have toconnect behavior and action with
(20:15):
uh what people tell us, thatfeedback, more directly and more
real time than a lot oforganizations either want to or
are capable of today.
Rob Markey (20:29):
I guess if if what you had said, you didn't say
what I expected you to say.
If what you had said is todaywe have the ability to use
telemetry on the interactionsthat customers have with us to
generate predictive models ofwhat they would have said if
they were answering a survey, orthat are that are even more
(20:51):
predictive of their futurelikelihood to stay longer, buy
more, tell their friends, andall the drivers of customer
value.
And we can have that availableto us as soon as that
interaction is over.
It's literally we can read thethe data and run it through our
model.
If that's what you were saying,then I'd say, yeah, I mean, I
(21:13):
want in the moment ability toread what's going on at scale
across all of my customer base,not just the handful of people
who respond to a survey.
What is challenging about thatsometimes, well, a lot of times,
is that what I can't tell fromthat telemetry is how you feel
(21:38):
about it.
And I also still don't havewell, I can and and those models
they're built on historicalunderstanding of the link
between the outcomes ofinteractions, you know, like
let's say an address change or afee dispute or a billing
question.
They're they're based on theoutcomes of those as they
(22:02):
predict future customerbehavior.
Those are good models, andwe've been building them for
five or seven years, as long aspeople have had the analytics
available to do them.
And they still just lack theheart that you get out of real
customers telling you how itfeels.
(22:23):
I know the anger, the rage, thefrustration.
You also lack the ability tosee how those expectations are
changing in the moment.
And so when you only are usingmodels that are built on
(22:43):
historical data, your modelsalways lag a little bit what's
going on with customers today,based on their experiences in
other industries, with othervendors, and so on.
And so we we marry the twotogether so that we get a better
forward-looking prediction ofwhat, how, how our average speed
(23:04):
of answer, how our call abandonrate, how our first-time
resolution is likely to impactour financial performance and
what is driving that, as well asthe downstream impact that's
likely to have on cross-sell,upsell, and and the other things
that drive value.
Jeannie Walters (23:25):
And I think we are in this really interesting
age right now because a lot ofthe organizations that I'm
seeing, they're they're simplynot there.
They're not they're not matureenough to have that.
Or I'm sure you're seeing thistoo, their data is a mess,
right?
So they are trying to connectall these dots, and they
(23:46):
realize, like, oh, we havetotally different data sets in
these different parts of ourorganization, and this isn't
gonna work, and all of thesethings.
And I'm curious about this withyou.
I also am really bothfascinated and a little hesitant
about some of the things thatare trying to, to your point,
(24:08):
capture those emotions beforesomebody has to tell us, right?
So facial recognition software,like all these things that are
now the voice uh kind ofanalysis that can tell tell you
the anxiety level is going up.
Rob Markey (24:26):
So I I have clients who are testing all these
things, and that's not ready forprimary.
Jeannie Walters (24:31):
I would agree.
Rob Markey (24:32):
It's it's on its way.
It's on its way, but we're notwe're not there.
That from a practicalperspective, the kinds of things
that people could be deployingover the next, you know, six,
twelve, eighteen months.
For me, the thing that I wouldbe doing right away is A, I
would be deploying cohortedcustomer analytics so that you
(24:54):
can tell whether individualgroups of customers are varying
from their your their expectedbehaviors in terms of their
interaction frequency, theirpurchase frequency, the average
order value, and all that.
And I would be developingpredictive models of future
customer behavior that are basedon characteristics of the
(25:15):
interactions they're havingtoday.
So I know if it took me, youknow, 90 minutes to get a live
person, or if it's the sixthphone call in a week, or if it,
you know, there's lots of I knowthat that was a bad
interaction, and I know how manyof those were, and I know what
(25:36):
the pattern of sources of of,you know, like was it do did we
experience a significantincrease in abandon rate?
And what that is likely to meanin terms of financial impact.
Jeannie Walters (25:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rob Markey (25:52):
That's that I I would be doing that today
because it's all possible to doeasily.
And it doesn't require fancynew technology that is not ready
for prime time.
Jeannie Walters (26:04):
Well, and the other thing that I've seen is
that sometimes we say, uh, youknow, we look at some, we know,
we look at something and we go,this is a terrible way to treat
customers, right?
And we all agree.
And then somebody says, well,we should we should do a survey
or we should do this.
And it's like, that's where Ithink we sometimes we have to
(26:24):
take customer experience leadersback or the people who talk
about it and say, okay, stop.
What are we trying to do here?
Right?
Like go back to the what are wetrying to do for the customer
and what are we trying to do forthe organization?
Rob Markey (26:37):
Well, let's go back to the article that you that
kicked this off, right?
We never really talked aboutthe article.
I mean, one of the things Ilike about what CoStar is doing
is something that customercompanies should do.
It's that they're they'retaking, they're talking to
investors about customer loyaltyand renewal together, right?
They're talking about the thingthat drives financial
(26:59):
performance along with thatsurvey-based metric.
So they're at least trying tolink a CX metric with concrete
outcomes like renewal rates andbookings.
That's a good thing.
But I don't know what they're Idon't know how they're
collecting their NPS.
I don't know.
Like, I'm not, I don't trustany company's self-reported NPS
(27:21):
as meaningful.
The in even an increase, Idon't know if they change their
methodology.
Jeannie Walters (27:27):
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Rob Markey (27:29):
So when when CoStar is talking or homes.com, when
they're talking about their NPSgoing up and all that stuff,
great.
I'm much more excited about thefact that their renewal rates
are up.
I'm much more excited about thefact that they're actually
getting more revenue percustomer.
Like those are things that thatmatter.
I'd rather see them, I'd I'dmuch more value a company like
(27:53):
that reporting tenure cohortretention and spending than
telling me about their NPS.
And I'm the NPS guy, like Idon't want to know your NPS.
I want to know are the qualityof customers you're acquiring
and the performance of thecustomers you're acquiring
better now than it was in thepast.
Jeannie Walters (28:12):
Yeah.
Well, and I think going back toour conversation too about we
have to continue to adapt andchange and innovate based on
changing customer expectationsright now, too.
And they're changing so quicklythat what what I the reason I
pulled this for us to talk aboutwas because I think that a lot
(28:36):
of times the narratives outthere are either look at NPS as
the shiny thing, right?
And yeah, exactly.
Like, hey, it's over here, anddon't pay attention to the
what's actually happening, or orthe opposite, where um, to your
point, it doesn't have theheart, it doesn't have like the
emotion.
And I like to like nobody'sbeen moved by a spreadsheet,
(28:59):
right?
Like nobody's looked at thatand said, Oh my gosh, that's
that's really powerful.
But they are moved by theemotion when we
Rob Markey (29:07):
If I'm fair, if I'm trying to be fair to the
management team, right?
What they're doing is they'resaying, investors, because
that's who they're talking to inan earnings call, they're
saying, investors, you shouldhave confidence in the
strategies that we're pursuingbecause they're resulting in
better customer satisfaction orNPS, which in turn is going to
drive new subscribers, betterretention, better revenue per
(29:32):
subscriber, you know, so on andso forth.
And the leap of faith that'srequired is caused by the fact
that they don't actually providereliable evidence of cohorted
customer performance.
What is the retention curve?
(29:52):
What does that look like?
What are the what are therevenues per customer in the
last for customers acquired ineach of the last five years?
That kind of stuff would giveinvestors real confidence.
So they're using a hand wavymetric like NPS to substitute
for what they really should beproviding.
Jeannie Walters (30:10):
Yeah, and at the same time, I appreciate that
they did connect these things.
And it's a they're trying totell a narrative, which you know
everybody is when they're doingthese types of calls.
But the uh but I think thatthere's uh again, I feel like
we're having these conversationsthat might be at the at the
start of a different journey foreverybody where we're getting
(30:33):
more real-time information,we're starting to connect the
dots more.
We are getting better data inmany cases than we we could even
access a couple years ago.
And so there's all theseexciting things happening.
And at the same time, we haveto guide people, we have to make
sure we know what story we'retrying to tell.
(30:53):
And my point about like notbeing moved by spreadsheets,
it's so easy to fall into like,here's the report, here's the
dashboard, here's this.
And then after a while, peoplego, Oh, okay, because the
numbers don't change all thatmuch from quarter to quarter
often.
And so we need to continue totap into that emotional side of
(31:14):
what are our customers actuallydoing and saying, and how are we
impacting their lives?
And that's when you startseeing people.
I mean, nothing moves anexecutive team more than playing
a recording of one of thoselike horrible call center calls,
and they start realizing, like,oh, these are real people, and
this is having a big impact.
And we made somebody cry,right?
(31:36):
Like, that's different thanthat.
So I think there's a lothappening just in the whole
world.
I'm gonna skip the third one.
This was too much fun.
We had too much fun on thisone.
So um, but this was great.
And I know uh if we wanted to,we could talk a lot longer.
So thank you for sharing allthis with us.
(31:56):
And you know, what what areyour thoughts?
Right.
If I said to you today, like,what do you think CX leaders
should look for in the next yearor two?
Like, what should they bethinking of?
And how what are some of thethings that you're seeing?
If if I'm gonna put you on thespot and ask you for like
concise.
Rob Markey (32:14):
No, no.
Well, there's only there's onlya couple things that really
matter, Jeannie.
One is are the actions I'mtaking growing the value of the
customer base, yeah, and whatare the indicators that that is
happening?
And the other is how can I atscale learn and improve or drive
(32:36):
in my organization learning andimprovement faster, easier, and
at lower cost.
If you're working those twothings, everything else is gonna
line up.
If what you're doing is you'reyou're you're you know measuring
more precisely your score, goodluck.
Jeannie Walters (32:56):
You heard it from the NPS guy yourself here.
So I hope that everybody waspaying attention.
Uh, this was great.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
And if people do want to learnmore about you or follow you,
what are the best ways for themto do that?
Rob Markey (33:12):
I mean, the easiest things to do are look at
robmarkey.com.
That's a simple one.
You can find me on LinkedIn orum even Bain and Company has
plenty of stuff that you canfind.
Jeannie Walters (33:23):
Excellent.
Well, we'll put that all in theshow notes.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
It's always a pleasure and uh,you know, a little bit of an
intellectual workout having aconversation with you, which I
appreciate very much.
Rob Markey (33:35):
I'm sorry.
Jeannie Walters (33:36):
No, it's great.
It's great.
I love it.
I love it.
So uh thank you for being herethen.
And of course, thank all of youfor being here on CX Pulse
Check, another episode of theExperience Action Podcast.
We will have another greatquestion from one of you in our
next episode.
Don't forget, you can leave mea question at askjeannie.vip.
(33:56):
Thanks for being here.
We'll see you next time.
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