October 14, 2025 • 37 mins
I sit down with advocate and author Palmer McIntyre to explore how North Carolina grew into the Great Trail State—and why that identity now shapes health, local business, and everyday life.
Palmer shares the story behind Great Trail State Day, the annual October celebration that invites everyone to step onto a nearby path and bring a friend along. We trace the momentum that began during the pandemic, grew through Year of the Trail, and led to more than $61 million in state investment for trail projects and the outdoor recreation economy’s $16.2 billion impact—fueling guides, outfitters, restaurants, lodging, and local tourism—and spotlight Old Fort’s trail expansion as a powerful example of how access can flip a switch for a small town.
We also dig into Trails and Treats, the new guide pairing 30 approachable routes with locally owned eateries across the mountains, Triad, Triangle, and Charlotte. You’ll hear how the authors chose lesser‑known gems to spread use beyond crowded hotspots, why urban greenways count as real adventure, and how food culture helps tell the story of place. If you’ve been waiting for a nudge to get outside—or a reason to try that bakery after your ride—consider this your sign.
Mike Andress
Host, Exploration Local
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mike@explorationlocal.com
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
A trail can change a day, and sometimes it can change
a town.
Today we're talking with PalmerMcIntyre about how North
Carolina became known as theGreat Trail State and how the
guidebook Trails and Treatslinks accessible trails with
Hometown Eats across themountains, Triad, Triangle, and
Charlotte.
Trails aren't here just forhiking.
They include biking, paddling,equestrian, urban greenways, and
(00:22):
natural surface paths.
The aim?
Connecting people of all ages,abilities, and backgrounds to
North Carolina's rich natural,cultural, and historic
resources.
We'll talk impact, like morepeople outside for mental and
physical health, small townsembracing civic pride, and over
$61 million in state investmentfor trails.
(00:43):
Outdoor Recreation now deliversover$16.2 billion to North
Carolina's economy, fuelingguides, gear shops, restaurants,
lodging, experiences, and localtourism.
The Great Trail State Coalitionchampions a future, where you're
never very far from a greattrail experience and advocates
for predictable funding for alltrail types, leveraging federal
(01:04):
dollars, and supports projectsready for construction across
all 100 counties.
And with Great Trail State Daycoming up this Saturday, October
the 18th, it's the perfectmoment to join the statewide
celebration.
Visit Great TrailStateCoalition.org to find an
event near you, pick a trail,and invite someone who hasn't
been outside in a while.
(01:31):
You're listening to ExplorationLocal, a podcast designed to
explore and celebrate the peopleand places that make the Blue
Ridge and Southern AppalachianMountains special and unique.
My name is Mike Andris, the hostof Exploration Local.
Join us on our journey toexplore these mountains and
discover how they fuel a spiritof adventure.
(01:51):
We encourage you to wander farbut explore local.
Let's go.
Palmer, I am so thrilled to haveyou here today.
Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
I am thrilled to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Absolutely.
We've got a lot to unpackbecause we have two really big
topics here and a really coolbook that's sitting right beside
me and sits on my nightstand.
And then we're also going totalk about this great trail
state that's coming up, thegreat trail state day that's
coming up.
But to kind of give us a littlebit of flavor of what we're
going to be getting into heretoday, Palmer, just a really
(02:24):
quick highlight view.
What does the Great Trails StateDay represent to you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Well, it is a day about getting people outside,
getting people outside toexplore any of the amazing
trails we have across NorthCarolina in any region.
It's just a great time of yearto be outside in all parts of
the state.
And we just want to encouragepeople to just engage with
trails wherever they are, eitherthrough an event or with a
(02:52):
family or friend or community orjust on your own.
So it can be anything.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Awesome.
And we're going to talk a littlebit more about what those trails
look like because sometimes whenwe think of trails, we just
think of the little dirt andthe, you know, the grass or the
gravel that we're walkingacross.
But in our state, we have a lotof really, really cool trails,
and we'll talk about that in alittle bit.
So how did this annualcelebration get started?
And how do you see peopleparticipating in it this year?
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
Well, it got started back in 2023.
And in 2023, we were celebratingNorth Carolina Year of the
Trail.
That was a big deal.
It was a statewide celebrationof trails, the first time we'd
ever done anything like this.
We did it on a very big scale.
And our whole goal was to raisethe profile and awareness about
(03:37):
trails all across the state andall communities because we want
people to be more engaged andaware and communities to be more
connected to trails.
And so we wanted to have thisday near the end of the year to
sort of bookend it.
And we thought, let's have agreat trail state day.
October's a great month.
Um, let's do it.
It actually became official in2024 through the Farm Act.
(03:59):
Um, so now it is an officialstate day and will always be the
third Saturday of October.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
And um, we're grateful for the state's support
in that.
So we have a thing, and it'sgreat trail state day.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
I love it.
I love it.
So why do you think NorthCarolina's trail culture really
resonates so deeply with people,especially right now?
Why do you think that's thecase?
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Well, I think it goes back to the COVID pandemic
in 2020 when people were reallytrying to find safe spaces to
be, and it was the outdoors.
People really discovered theoutdoors with their pods, with
their families, with theirgroups of people they were
hanging around.
And that just put a greatemphasis on the benefits of
(04:43):
these trails.
People felt better when theywere outside, they were moving
their bodies, um, so they couldsort of see those direct
impacts.
And I so I think it thatawareness goes back to then and
the timing with Year of theTrail, with this great trail
state day, it's all building onthat initial momentum.
And I just think there's there'smuch increased awareness about
the benefits of trails forcommunities across the state.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Yeah, so true.
And even, you know, just beyonda day, you and I were talking
the other day, and one of thethings that we had just kind of
mentioned or talked about wasjust the mental health aspect
that comes from being outsideand being on these trails.
And we mentioned some of the newgreenway trails that are like
here in my town, like the AcostaTrail, uh, and there's so many
others that are going on, youknow, across the state.
But yeah, it just since COVIDfor sure, you feel like people
(05:27):
are really looking to theoutdoors.
And you, I don't know if thiswas part of the motivation
behind it, but your awesomebook, Trails and Treats, it's a
hiker and runner's guide togreat trails and goodieats in
North Carolina.
And I can't think of a bettertime to be talking about this
book, especially looking at theGreat Trail State Day just a
just a few weeks away.
SPEAKER_01 (05:48):
Well, we were super excited to bring this book into
the world, and it was a longtime in coming.
In fact, the idea surfaced witha good friend of mine, Hollis
Oberlees.
We wrote it together, and sheapproached me about it in 2021,
and I thought, oh, perfecttiming.
Year of the trails coming, wecan get this thing done and
launch at about that time.
And of course, that neverhappened.
It took three and a half yearsto get the book done.
(06:10):
But the timing was great, and itreally is a unique guide because
it combines trails withadditional places.
I mean, normally you've hadtrail guides and then you've had
food guides, but this puts itall together into one, so it's a
unique product out there.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
What was your process for choosing which
trails and what eateries made itinto the book?
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
Well, that's a great question because there are
probably a thousand trailsacross North Carolina, and it's
kind of like, oh, picking yourfavorite child.
But we wanted to pick trails inin certain regions of the state.
We we had there are four regionswe picked the mountains, the
triad, the triangle, andCharlotte, because that's where
most of the population of thestate is located.
(06:52):
And there aren't as many trailsin the eastern part of the
state.
Um, so we picked those fourregions and we wanted to pick a
variety of trails that kind ofrepresented um everything from
iconic, you can't miss this.
If you haven't been on one ofthe this trail, you really need
to go to those kind of secretgyms that people might not know
about.
So it really is a wide range oftrails, and they're all very
(07:15):
doable.
Like nothing is crazy hard orjust too easy.
It's a nice, it's a nice rangefor experienced trail users, but
also for people new to trails.
So it's a book that speaks to alot of different levels of trail
users.
And then for the places to eat,um, that was really fun.
And we wanted to go to placesthat were locally owned, that
(07:38):
welcomed people in that might bea little, you know, sweaty, um,
might have a dog.
I mean, we talk about whichplaces welcome dogs.
Um, so and and they've beenaround for a while.
So, you know, a lot of theseplaces survived through the
pandemic.
So they've got some stayingpower with them, but we really
wanted that local feel.
And and so we have more than 70,we call them treats in the book.
(08:02):
And they're anything from likebakeries, coffee shops, pizza
joints, uh brewery, you know,there's a wide variety of
places, but and it's reallymeant to just give some
inspiration too, because there'sthere's gazillions more, but but
we thought it was just fun tothe ones we have in there we
really enjoyed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
And you know, something you said, I don't know
if I misheard you or not, but itdefinitely makes sense to me if
you did, if I did understandthis.
So you can go to some guy bookssometimes or look on some social
media influencers and profiles,and a lot of times you see the
same things over and over andover and over and over again.
But when I look at your book,there's a lot of trails in here,
quite honestly, I've never heardof before.
(08:39):
And so, not that I know all thetrails all the way around, you
know, all around, but you'vereally kind of identified some
unique trails, some new trails,some ways to experience maybe a
region that people haven't everexplored before.
Was that intentional?
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
That was intentional, yeah.
Because like I said, we wantedto, we don't want to overcrowd
places that are alreadyovercrowded.
I mean, there are a few iconictrails that get really busy, and
we talk about how it's good togo visit trails at off times.
I mean, like a peak Saturday inOctober, you know, you just need
to pick and choose where you gobecause it's could be really
busy and be expect that.
(09:17):
But but yeah, we did want toshow that diversity, and we have
it have a diversity of landmanagers in there too.
I mean, there's some that arenational forests, there's some
that are state parks, some thatare local governments, some that
are land trusts, some of the,you know, private nature
preserves with land trusts thatare open to the public.
But so it is a wide variety ofdifferent types of trails and
different features, like somehave views, some have water,
(09:39):
some have historical elements tothem.
So it meant it was really meantto be a variety.
And we feature three urbantrails.
So you might not think about anurban trail as a trail
experience, but like greenwaysand town and cities, and that
there's always art involved inthese trails.
It's interesting, and you'reright next to a lot of great
restaurants and places to go.
(09:59):
So it can be that can be its ownadventure outdoors, but it's
just a little bit more urbanthan say a trail back in the
forest.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Yeah.
Well, I love that because itexpands our view of what we
think trails are, and sometimeswe just think it's these big
high peaks that we have to gowalk and you know and get dirty
and drive for hours.
But sometimes that's all thatstuff is literally right there
in our backyard or in a regionright next to us that that we
haven't discovered yet.
And speaking of that, I'm reallycurious to know if any of these
(10:29):
sort of pairings really kind ofsurprised you, or you felt like
you found this hidden gem, likeyou discovered this hidden gem
of a of a place to hike.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
Well, yes.
I mean, we discovered a lot ofgems.
And so for us, we both live inGreensboro, and uh we've both
spent a lot of time in themountains.
And Hollis, my co-author, usedto live in the triangle.
Um, so it was very fun for bothof us to discover trails in the
Charlotte area because that wasnew to us.
But in a was what was really funwas discovering the little
(11:00):
communities around these trails.
And it was one time we were downthere doing a day of field work
and we ended up with a flattire.
When we went to get it fixed, welearned about the town of
Matthews.
It was right there in Matthews.
We'd never been to Matthewsbefore, and it was the cutest
town with some really greatrestaurants and brew pubs.
So that that was a fun accident,you know, that that led to the
(11:23):
discovery of a trail and sometreats that ended up being
featured in the book.
But some beautiful places likeFonta Flora Brewery in
Whipperwill.
I mean, that is is a stunningplace.
Um, there's so many, manyplaces, and some some ones we
really knew we wanted in thebook, like Google Healt Bakery
and Durham.
(11:43):
They also have a place in ChapelHill, but you know, you can and
fosters market.
I mean, those are just placesyou can't miss if you're in that
area because they're veryspecial and very distinct, if
you will.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Yeah.
And it also sounds like theseare some of these trails are
really kind of for every abilitylevel.
Like you didn't write this bookfor a specific population.
It's almost like you wrote thiswrit you wrote this book for
many populations and user group.
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Yeah, and I really feel like um all these books are
are accessible to people of allabilities and backgrounds.
They may not be accessible to tosay wheelchairs or you know,
rolled devices, but um, butthey're all like no matter what
your age or your background,there's a piece of all of these
trails that you could experienceand enjoy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Regardless of your ability.
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
I love that.
You mentioned or you touched onthis just a little bit, and I
know this is near and dear toyour heart, but how does food
and these local places reallyand you know, these trails
really help to tell a story of atrail or a community, Palmer?
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Well, I mean, first of all, Hollis and I both love
to eat.
So, and I and I think I'll haveto say that the give her the
credit for the inspiration forthe book.
Nice.
Um, she was really loves theoatmeal raising cookies from
Weaver Street Market.
And Weaver Street Market has uhone of their bakeries actually
in Hillsborough.
They also have stores in ChapoHill, and I think Raleigh too
(13:09):
now.
Um so she was trying to figureout a way to go get some more of
these oatmeal raising cookiesthat she loves so much, but she
needed to also get some exerciseso she could enjoy them
guilt-free.
And so um she paired it with avisit to the Okinee Speedway,
which is right there inHillsborough.
It's a cool, um, I don't know ifyou heard familiar with it, but
it's it's a NASCAR, formerNASCAR track.
It's it's really cool.
(13:30):
So that was one of that was theoriginal pairing of the book and
really the inspiration behindthe book.
And and so I think, you know,that's we both love food.
We both love to ex go get theoutside and do adventures
together, and it's just anatural combination for both of
us.
We also include some healthyrecipes in the book, and um,
(13:50):
they're kind of sprinkled inthroughout the chapters, and
there's things you can make andeat before you go, or make and
tuck into your bag so you canmunch on while you're on the
trail.
So it's just another option forcombining good and healthy foods
with your outdoor adventure.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Yes, and your sunrise egg cups, we did this.
Um yep, absolutely.
It's on page 155 of the book, infact.
Yep, we that's exactly what wedid on for a hike.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
Perfect.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
All right, I know we want to get into the Great Trail
State Day.
Maybe one last thing about thisbook.
What do you hope readers takeaway from trails and treats
beyond just trip ideas andbeyond just places to eat?
Whether, you know, anything elsethat you hope readers would take
away with this?
SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
Well, I think what we really want to do is inspire
people.
I mean, it's only 30 trails, soit's not the whole state, and it
can get you started, but I thinkit's also to help encourage
people who maybe haven'texperienced trails before to
just give it a try and startwhere you're at, and you can
(14:54):
build and you can go on to otherthings too.
But hopefully this book can helppeople get started and help
people who might already bestarted to discover some new
places.
So it really came out of a pointof inspiration because both of
us have benefited so much fromour time outdoors, growing up
(15:16):
with families who providedoutdoor experiences for us when
we were young.
And so it's just it's part ofour life, and we just want to
share that joy with others.
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
I absolutely love that.
And the book you can purchasethis book on uh Amazon, you can
purchase it at other places aswell.
Is there like a landing page forthis book?
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Is there Yeah, trailsandtreats.com.
There you go.
Yeah, trails and and is spelledout and d.
And it's all it's available in alot of local retailers too, like
REI stores, great outdoorprovision stores, um, Mass
General stores around the state,and a lot of local bookstores.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
Definitely support one of your local outfitters and
your local guide services thatare carrying this book.
They are really the trueheartbeat of a lot of our
communities when it comes togear in the outdoors,
information, and all thingsrelated to the outdoors, really.
All right, so let's pivot andlet's talk about this Great
Trail State initiative.
(16:14):
This is a really big deal.
And I know that we get excitedabout this because we are in
North Carolina, but we havelisteners in, I think the last
count was like 2,400 differentcities across the United States
and then in Europe as well.
And so they may not necessarilyknow this moniker, the Great
Trail State, here in NorthCarolina.
Um, I wonder if you can kind oftee that up again just a little
bit.
(16:34):
And then what has been your rolein this, Palmer?
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Well, the Great Trail State name really has come
out of it's building on, Iguess, North Carolina's
reputation as the Good RoadState, which was a grassroots
effort to help farmers get theirgoods to market.
And so North Carolina's alwaysbeen known as the Good Road
State.
But we wanted to bring that tothe next level and say that we
(17:02):
are the great trail state and wetruly believe it.
Um we are working on fulfillingthat vision.
And um, there are trails in allcorners of the state.
We'd love to see trails in all100 counties, but it really is
about delivering the benefits oftrails to all 100 counties
across the state.
And, you know, we talked aboutthose benefits earlier, but it's
(17:24):
the health and wellness, butit's also the economic
development benefits.
It's um not every town can havea factory.
Um, in fact, a lot of our smallcommunities have lost their
manufacturing base and they'restarting to look around and say,
what do we have?
And we have some amazing naturalassets.
And how can we leverage thoseassets for tourism?
(17:45):
And people come to NorthCarolina, people live in North
Carolina because they love ourlandscapes and they love our
outdoor recreationopportunities.
And so it's helping leveragethat and dispersing people
across and different communitiesto enjoy those particular
activities.
And the way I got involved in itis my day job is with Piedmont
Lane Conservancy.
I um I grew up in Greensboro,left for a long time because the
(18:08):
grass is always green on theother side of the fence, and had
to had to do that in order toappreciate North Carolina.
So when I landed back here inGreensboro, um, I started
working with Piedmont LaneConservancy.
And one of the things we do isum provide trails through our
nature preserves.
And as part of that, weorganized a regional initiative
(18:28):
where people, our differentpartners across the region were
just like, we there aren'tenough resources to do the work
around trails.
And so started connecting withother people across the state
and decided that let's dosomething as a at the state
level, let's get everyonetogether because people have
been working in their silos andlet's break those barriers down,
(18:48):
get together, and with oneunified voice, maybe we can have
an impact to show our stateleaders that an investment in
trail infrastructure is aninvestment that delivers a
really high return.
And so that's what we've beenworking on since about 2020.
And I just volunteered to helplead it.
So um so I kind of by accident,I mean, just kind of fell into
(19:13):
that.
But I've been helping lead itwith an amazing team of people
from across the state, includingIona McInna Thomas with McAdams
and Beth Heiley, who you'veinterviewed before, and many,
many, many others.
It's it's definitely a teameffort, but we've made a ton of
progress, Mike, and we'vesecured over$60 million for
(19:34):
trails since 2020 through theGeneral Assembly, and that's
that's gonna deliver amazingimpact for communities across
the state.
It is mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
That's mind blowing.
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Yeah, it's the first time.
Um it's the first time thatwe've gotten that type of
funding.
Um, the that that the state ofNorth Carolina has invested that
type of funding.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
So aggregate, what was that number again?
60 million?
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Over 61 million dollars.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
So naturally, or obviously it's not just you and
I and others that get excitedabout this being the great trail
state, but our statelegislatures have really sort of
come through, and this is thisis truly an all-in, all hands on
board, all hands on deck, so tospeak, um, effort to really
raise our state to really themoniker that it deserves being
the great trail state.
(20:18):
And you mentioned a lot ofpeople come to North Carolina to
visit, and obviously that's verytrue.
One of the things that um youjust shared with me, which I
mean, I knew the outdoorrecreation added about$14
million to the North Carolina'seconomy, but I was blown away
when you said, Yeah, Mike, justgo ahead and add 2.2 more
million dollars billion ordollars onto that because we're
up to 16.2 billion is whatoutdoor recreation adds to our
(20:42):
economy.
That's huge.
SPEAKER_01 (20:44):
It is huge.
And it's you know, it's a lot ofdifferent things.
It's guiding services or uhprovision companies, you know,
renting out equipment, it's bedand brick, Airbnbs, restaurants.
I mean, all that like relates tothe outdoor economy.
It is an ecosystem.
There's lots of different piecesto it.
But but and tourism is up inNorth Carolina too.
(21:05):
I mean, that keeps growing.
Um, visit and see does a greatjob marketing our state, but um
more and more people come toNorth Carolina to vacation.
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Are there any challenges you feel like you
still face in connecting andmaintaining trails statewide?
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Yeah, the there are challenges.
And I think one of the firstchallenges is helping elected
leaders understand thatinvesting in this type of
infrastructure is is reallyimportant and should be included
as as you think through roadsand sewer and sidewalks and
(21:40):
such.
I mean, it's a critical part ofcommunity infrastructure.
So plan for that.
Because whenever you do a parksand rec survey, um, people
always put trails at the top.
I mean, that is the most popularthing.
More people engage and canengage in that type of activity
activity than any other sportingfacility.
Yeah.
(22:00):
Um, so it's it's a very popularthing.
People want safe places to walkand to run and to ride their
bikes.
Um, so helping just demonstratethe importance of investment in
that type of infrastructure.
Then, of course, funding is achallenge.
I mean, it's always a challenge.
There's so much competition forfunding.
And so it's helping deliver themessage that you know, you spend
(22:21):
a dollar on a trail, you'll getback more than that every year
because there are new businessesthat spring up around that
trail.
You mentioned the Acousta Trailthere, and there's already a lot
of businesses around the AcostaTrail that are popping up, and
people come do the trail, theygo visit those businesses.
I mean, that's economic impact.
So it's an investment that thatdelivers, is what we're trying
(22:44):
to demonstrate.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
That's exactly right.
And you also mentioned earlierthat some of these communities
that may not have manufacturingor other large, large draws that
way economically, that thatthese outdoor places, these
natural assets can be reallykind of a bolster to local
economies and and communities.
And I'm wondering, like besidesthe Acousta, is there an example
(23:07):
of a project or maybe even acommunity that's really
benefiting from this initiativeof the Great Trail State?
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
I think there are many examples, but one I'll
point out is the town of OldFort.
There wasn't a whole lot goingon in Old Fort a decade or more
ago.
Um, there's been partners in inthe community who have been
working together to develop anetwork of trails in the
national forest, which butts upright against Piscah National
(23:38):
Forest, is right against OldFort.
And so they had the vision thatwe create this infrastructure,
we'll bring people into ourcommunity, and our community
will prosper and thrive.
And I was just speaking to oneof the partners there, Jason
McDougall, who um works at CampGreer and leads G5 Trail
Collective.
And he his quote, his directquote was like someone flipped a
(24:00):
switch in Old Fort.
You know, they got miles, 20some miles of this trail
infrastructure developed, andit's like someone flipped a
switch because all the lots ofnew businesses came into town.
It became a thriving place.
Hard to find a place to parksometimes.
So that's just a demonstrationof what trails can do for a
community.
SPEAKER_00 (24:18):
I love it.
Love it.
All right, well, let's uh focusa little bit on the actual day
of celebration here.
I know it's been all over yoursocials, and um I love seeing
it.
The Great Trail State Day isgoing to be Saturday, October
the 18th.
And how can people get involvedwith this?
How can they find out more?
And how can they just becompletely engaged with this
(24:39):
whole day?
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
Well, the first suggestion is to follow us on
social media at Great Trails NC.
And there we have a lot ofsuggestions and inspiration at
our website, which isgreattrailsnc.com.
There is an events tab, andthere are a lot of events going
on across the state.
Um, so you can maybe findsomething to do there.
(25:02):
And then the third thing is justto look around where you are and
see if there's a new trail you'dlike to try or an old favorite
and invite a friend who maybehasn't been on that trail before
and just get outside and enjoythe day.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Oh, great suggestions.
I absolutely love that.
It really sounds like we're notjust building trails in North
Carolina, but really kind ofbuilding community and
belonging.
And I think that tiesbeautifully back to your book.
So we could also use your bookas a great reference tool to
participate in the Great TrailState Day as well, right?
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
Absolutely.
I hope you can.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Oh, that's good.
That's good.
I'm I'm curious about stories,stories from the trail, stories
from communities, from hikersand businesses.
I know you mentioned Jason, uh,and I know those others that are
probably the tip of the tonguefor you, but who else are you
hearing from about how thesetrails are driving this bigger
(26:00):
trail movement here in NorthCarolina, Palmer?
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
Well, that is a big question.
And um we did we wrote a lot ofstories during Year of the Trail
um in the form of blogs.
And they were stories aboutpeople, and so not necessarily
like, oh, the you know, we grew13 businesses in five years in a
certain town.
(26:24):
Not necessarily that, but astory about people.
And one of them in particular, Iremember a woman who she had a
streak, and a street, you know,some some people know streaks
about social media where you'reon social media and you don't
stop.
But no, this is a streak whereshe was doing an outdoor
activity um every day for um theevery day during year of the
trail.
(26:44):
And so she found a trailactivity, whether even if she
was out of town for work, shewould find space in that day to
spend a little bit of time on atrail.
And that was transformationalfor her.
And then there's the Kaharitribe down in eastern North
Carolina where they wereuncleaning up and developing a
(27:08):
river trail and getting theiryouth involved and just seeing
the changes in the communitywhere they were investing in
this incredible natural assetand the impact that had on the
young people in that community.
And I mean, I could go on and onabout the stories.
Um, there's the group Find um inWestern North Carolina, where
(27:29):
they had a program where theywere bringing um Hispanic kids
and their families out onoutdoor adventures and just
life-changing.
Um, just there's so so manystories to tell.
And I encourage people to golook at our website and read
some of those stories at greattrailsnc.com.
SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'd be remiss if we didn'tactually cover what trails are
included because it's not justlike as we mentioned earlier,
trails I'm walking on, but we'retalking about blue ways,
greenways, and and trails.
These are all things that aremaking up the trails in our
great trail state, right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Yeah, when we say the word trail, it is very
expansive.
So it is paved trails, naturalsurface trails that you can hike
or mountain bike on.
Um it's equine trails, it'spaddle trails where you might be
paddling a canoe or kayak.
Um, so we can't say musclepowered trails.
(28:28):
Um, so that that is what theuniverse of trails that we are
trying to promote.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Any idea of the total number of miles of trails
that we have in North Carolina?
Did you know I was going to askthat?
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
Oh no, but it's so hard to say.
I honestly don't know.
We don't there is not onecomprehensive map of trails in
North Carolina.
And the reason is because thatis not an easy product to
create.
I bet.
Um, it because you havedifferent land managers, the
data sets, I mean, it's very,very complicated.
In fact, it was we have maps inour book of all the different
(29:01):
trails, and it was it was a bigjob to get all that data to
create those maps.
But um, you know, you can use anapp like trail forks or all
trails, or you know, you cansort of see that there are there
are just a lot, there arethousands of trails across the
state, probably.
Um, but I honestly I can't evenbegin to even guess how many
miles of trails.
SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
A lot, a lot of miles.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
A lot, a lot, and more to come.
SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right, that's right.
In fact, I am curious to knowlike when you look into the
foreseeable future, what do youhope that we'll be celebrating
about North Carolina's trails,say 10, 15 years from now?
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Well, our hope.
So speaking from the voice ofthe coalition, our hope is that
there is a recurring fundingsource for trails.
The state has some other fundsfor parks and for conservation,
like that part F, it's calledParks and Recreation Trust Fund.
And then there's the Land andWater Conservation Fund.
Those are recurring.
(30:00):
So we would love to see theGreat Trails State program be a
recurring fund that anycommunity can apply to for grant
funding to advance theirprojects.
And then the other thing is thatwe really truly live up to this
moniker of North Carolina beingthe Great Trails State.
And that's something thateveryone recognizes.
I mean, everyone recognizes thatVirginia is for lovers.
(30:22):
I mean, it just rolls off yourtongue, you know about it.
But we want everyone torecognize that North Carolina is
the Great Trail state.
So I'd love to see a combinationof those two things and just
more people getting outdoors andlearning about and caring for,
because stewardship is part ofthis.
We want to care for these spacesthat we're inviting people into
(30:45):
to experience.
But just more people engaged inthe caring of them and the
experiencing of them and valuingthem.
So that's there you go.
That's my hope.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
I love that.
That's a huge hope.
Are there any particularprojects that you're especially
excited about?
Some that you may not be able totalk about.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
No, I can.
So in our region, again, goingback to my my job with Pete Mont
Lane Conservancy, you know,we've been working on in this
idea to connect Greensboro toWinston-Salem through
Kernersville with a with atrail, a regional greenway.
And it's trail projects arehard.
I mean, they take a lot ofplanning, they take a lot of
time, and especially where theygo across multiple jurisdictions
(31:27):
and lots of different landownersand so forth.
And so that's that is somethingI'm hopeful to see some progress
on.
Um that would be a greatalternative to the white knuckle
I-40 experience that many peopledid getting between those two
cities.
So that that is a a particularhope of mine is to see that
project advance.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
Oh, that's so cool.
Well, I hope it does, um, forsure, because um just a small
example, we used to live inVirginia years ago, and there
was a, I think it was called theVirginia Capital Trail.
And I remember back in gosh, theearly 2000s, the idea, and I'm
sure that the the genesis ofthat idea came like way before
then, but there was an idea thatthey wanted to c uh connect like
(32:10):
52 miles from Williamsburg,Virginia to Richmond.
And that, you know, I rememberriding sections of that right
behind my house, you know, asfar up to the river,
Chickahominy River that I could,but now going back into
Virginia, you see that thattrail is is complete.
And it's amazing being able todrive through little small
wooded areas, you know, tofarmlands, to the urban area.
(32:32):
Um, you talk about a way toreally kind of experience where
you live in an entirely new way.
I mean, that is that is it.
And these trails are just waysto do that.
They're just trails are ways toconnect not only communities,
but just people within thosecommunities too, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (32:48):
Yeah, and it's not just about transportation,
although it is, but in additionto that, it becomes an
attraction.
And, you know, people visitWilliamsburg and Richmond just
to just to go on that trail,too.
So that's where you get yourbenefit from, too.
Just it makes a community a niceplace to live, a really nice
(33:09):
place to live when you can goout and have that kind of
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
Yeah, you're so right.
And you know, again, justanother small example from me,
and we talked about the AcoustaTrail not too long ago, but you
know, that trail, when I go onit and I see the number of
people that are, you know,clearly these bikes that were
pulled out of the garage,they've been in there for years,
but they're out there, they'reriding, and you have people, you
know, walking, and you know, mygirls, it's amazing, you know,
(33:34):
in the afternoon.
I I can look up and friendfinder where they are, and and
and nine times out of ten,they're gonna be at the acousta
market hanging right at theacousta trail.
And, you know, there's peoplethat are just on rollerblades
and skateboards and bikes andwalking and families and you
know, all ages.
It's just I'm seeing itfirsthand.
Like I I feel like I've beenaware of it with you know, the
(33:55):
things we're talking about andthe impact that you're you're
referring to.
But when you experience it, it'sit's it's life-changing, to be
honest with you, because you'rethinking about not just
yourself, but I'm thinking aboutour community as a whole and the
way that it's just drawing, andthen and then you're running
into people, you're like, gosh,I haven't seen them in a long
time, and all of a sudden herethey are on the Acoustic Trail.
(34:16):
That's what trails do for us.
SPEAKER_01 (34:17):
It's like a central park in a way, isn't it?
It brings people together.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Absolutely does.
Well, Palmer, I have absolutelythoroughly enjoyed this
conversation, and I know that wecould go a lot deeper on both of
these topics, but um, before Ilet you go, is there anything
that you really would love forpeople to understand, both about
your book or about the GreatTrail State Day or the Great
Trail State in general?
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Well, I mean, I think we've covered it, but I
really do hope that we can seetrails in all 100 counties and
see all communities benefit fromtrails in the future.
And um, yeah, just get out, getout there and discover it.
And hopefully the book can be aresource and a tool to just to
be a launching pad for for greatadventures for your families and
(35:02):
your friends and yourself, andwe'll all enjoy it because we
live in a wonderful place.
SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
Oh, so well said.
Well, Palmer, listen, thank youso much for joining me today and
really for everything thatyou're doing to help North
Carolinians connect with trails,food, and and these shared
experiences.
Thanks so much for what you doand your team.
I know that it's not alone, butI really appreciate all that you
all are doing together.
SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
Well, thank you so much, Mike, and happy Great
Trail State Day to you.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Happy Great Trail State to you, too.
North Carolina truly is theGreat Trail State.
Thanks to the communities,volunteers, and trail advocates
working together to make sureeveryone has a place to wander.
As we celebrate Great TrailState Day, remember that every
mile matters, from the greenwaysthat connect neighborhoods to
the rugged backcountry pathsthat connect us to nature.
(35:50):
Visit Great Trail StateCoalition.org to discover events
near you, learn how to getinvolved, or support the
statewide effort to promotetrails thriving in all 100
counties.
If Trails and Shrie inspiresyour next outing, share your
favorite trail and streetpairing with us on social media.
And if you participate in theGreat Trail State Day, be sure
(36:10):
to share your adventures usingthe tags at Great Trails North
Carolina, hashtag GreatTrailsNorth Carolina, and
hashtag Great TrailState.
So the celebration and thetrails get the spotlight that
they deserve.
Well, thanks for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, please leave me a
review and don't forget tosubscribe so you don't miss the
next episode.
(36:31):
Follow me on Instagram andFacebook and drop me a note at
Mike at explorationlocal.com ifyou ever have ideas for future
episodes, or if you just want tosay hello.
That's gonna do it for thisepisode.
As I always say, I encourage youto wander far but explore local,
especially on this Great TrailState Day.
A trail can change a day, and sometimes it can change
a town.
Today we're talking with PalmerMcIntyre about how North
Carolina became known as theGreat Trail State and how the
guidebook Trails and Treatslinks accessible trails with
Hometown Eats across themountains, Triad, Triangle, and
Charlotte.
Trails aren't here just forhiking.
They include biking, paddling,equestrian, urban greenways, and
(00:22):
natural surface paths.
The aim?
Connecting people of all ages,abilities, and backgrounds to
North Carolina's rich natural,cultural, and historic
resources.
We'll talk impact, like morepeople outside for mental and
physical health, small townsembracing civic pride, and over
$61 million in state investmentfor trails.
(00:43):
Outdoor Recreation now deliversover$16.2 billion to North
Carolina's economy, fuelingguides, gear shops, restaurants,
lodging, experiences, and localtourism.
The Great Trail State Coalitionchampions a future, where you're
never very far from a greattrail experience and advocates
for predictable funding for alltrail types, leveraging federal
(01:04):
dollars, and supports projectsready for construction across
all 100 counties.
And with Great Trail State Daycoming up this Saturday, October
the 18th, it's the perfectmoment to join the statewide
celebration.
Visit Great TrailStateCoalition.org to find an
event near you, pick a trail,and invite someone who hasn't
been outside in a while.
(01:31):
You're listening to ExplorationLocal, a podcast designed to
explore and celebrate the peopleand places that make the Blue
Ridge and Southern AppalachianMountains special and unique.
My name is Mike Andris, the hostof Exploration Local.
Join us on our journey toexplore these mountains and
discover how they fuel a spiritof adventure.
(01:51):
We encourage you to wander farbut explore local.
Let's go.
Palmer, I am so thrilled to haveyou here today.
Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
I am thrilled to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Absolutely.
We've got a lot to unpackbecause we have two really big
topics here and a really coolbook that's sitting right beside
me and sits on my nightstand.
And then we're also going totalk about this great trail
state that's coming up, thegreat trail state day that's
coming up.
But to kind of give us a littlebit of flavor of what we're
going to be getting into heretoday, Palmer, just a really
(02:24):
quick highlight view.
What does the Great Trails StateDay represent to you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Well, it is a day about getting people outside,
getting people outside toexplore any of the amazing
trails we have across NorthCarolina in any region.
It's just a great time of yearto be outside in all parts of
the state.
And we just want to encouragepeople to just engage with
trails wherever they are, eitherthrough an event or with a
(02:52):
family or friend or community orjust on your own.
So it can be anything.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Awesome.
And we're going to talk a littlebit more about what those trails
look like because sometimes whenwe think of trails, we just
think of the little dirt andthe, you know, the grass or the
gravel that we're walkingacross.
But in our state, we have a lotof really, really cool trails,
and we'll talk about that in alittle bit.
So how did this annualcelebration get started?
And how do you see peopleparticipating in it this year?
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
Well, it got started back in 2023.
And in 2023, we were celebratingNorth Carolina Year of the
Trail.
That was a big deal.
It was a statewide celebrationof trails, the first time we'd
ever done anything like this.
We did it on a very big scale.
And our whole goal was to raisethe profile and awareness about
(03:37):
trails all across the state andall communities because we want
people to be more engaged andaware and communities to be more
connected to trails.
And so we wanted to have thisday near the end of the year to
sort of bookend it.
And we thought, let's have agreat trail state day.
October's a great month.
Um, let's do it.
It actually became official in2024 through the Farm Act.
(03:59):
Um, so now it is an officialstate day and will always be the
third Saturday of October.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
And um, we're grateful for the state's support
in that.
So we have a thing, and it'sgreat trail state day.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
I love it.
I love it.
So why do you think NorthCarolina's trail culture really
resonates so deeply with people,especially right now?
Why do you think that's thecase?
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Well, I think it goes back to the COVID pandemic
in 2020 when people were reallytrying to find safe spaces to
be, and it was the outdoors.
People really discovered theoutdoors with their pods, with
their families, with theirgroups of people they were
hanging around.
And that just put a greatemphasis on the benefits of
(04:43):
these trails.
People felt better when theywere outside, they were moving
their bodies, um, so they couldsort of see those direct
impacts.
And I so I think it thatawareness goes back to then and
the timing with Year of theTrail, with this great trail
state day, it's all building onthat initial momentum.
And I just think there's there'smuch increased awareness about
the benefits of trails forcommunities across the state.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Yeah, so true.
And even, you know, just beyonda day, you and I were talking
the other day, and one of thethings that we had just kind of
mentioned or talked about wasjust the mental health aspect
that comes from being outsideand being on these trails.
And we mentioned some of the newgreenway trails that are like
here in my town, like the AcostaTrail, uh, and there's so many
others that are going on, youknow, across the state.
But yeah, it just since COVIDfor sure, you feel like people
(05:27):
are really looking to theoutdoors.
And you, I don't know if thiswas part of the motivation
behind it, but your awesomebook, Trails and Treats, it's a
hiker and runner's guide togreat trails and goodieats in
North Carolina.
And I can't think of a bettertime to be talking about this
book, especially looking at theGreat Trail State Day just a
just a few weeks away.
SPEAKER_01 (05:48):
Well, we were super excited to bring this book into
the world, and it was a longtime in coming.
In fact, the idea surfaced witha good friend of mine, Hollis
Oberlees.
We wrote it together, and sheapproached me about it in 2021,
and I thought, oh, perfecttiming.
Year of the trails coming, wecan get this thing done and
launch at about that time.
And of course, that neverhappened.
It took three and a half yearsto get the book done.
(06:10):
But the timing was great, and itreally is a unique guide because
it combines trails withadditional places.
I mean, normally you've hadtrail guides and then you've had
food guides, but this puts itall together into one, so it's a
unique product out there.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
What was your process for choosing which
trails and what eateries made itinto the book?
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
Well, that's a great question because there are
probably a thousand trailsacross North Carolina, and it's
kind of like, oh, picking yourfavorite child.
But we wanted to pick trails inin certain regions of the state.
We we had there are four regionswe picked the mountains, the
triad, the triangle, andCharlotte, because that's where
most of the population of thestate is located.
(06:52):
And there aren't as many trailsin the eastern part of the
state.
Um, so we picked those fourregions and we wanted to pick a
variety of trails that kind ofrepresented um everything from
iconic, you can't miss this.
If you haven't been on one ofthe this trail, you really need
to go to those kind of secretgyms that people might not know
about.
So it really is a wide range oftrails, and they're all very
(07:15):
doable.
Like nothing is crazy hard orjust too easy.
It's a nice, it's a nice rangefor experienced trail users, but
also for people new to trails.
So it's a book that speaks to alot of different levels of trail
users.
And then for the places to eat,um, that was really fun.
And we wanted to go to placesthat were locally owned, that
(07:38):
welcomed people in that might bea little, you know, sweaty, um,
might have a dog.
I mean, we talk about whichplaces welcome dogs.
Um, so and and they've beenaround for a while.
So, you know, a lot of theseplaces survived through the
pandemic.
So they've got some stayingpower with them, but we really
wanted that local feel.
And and so we have more than 70,we call them treats in the book.
(08:02):
And they're anything from likebakeries, coffee shops, pizza
joints, uh brewery, you know,there's a wide variety of
places, but and it's reallymeant to just give some
inspiration too, because there'sthere's gazillions more, but but
we thought it was just fun tothe ones we have in there we
really enjoyed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
And you know, something you said, I don't know
if I misheard you or not, but itdefinitely makes sense to me if
you did, if I did understandthis.
So you can go to some guy bookssometimes or look on some social
media influencers and profiles,and a lot of times you see the
same things over and over andover and over and over again.
But when I look at your book,there's a lot of trails in here,
quite honestly, I've never heardof before.
(08:39):
And so, not that I know all thetrails all the way around, you
know, all around, but you'vereally kind of identified some
unique trails, some new trails,some ways to experience maybe a
region that people haven't everexplored before.
Was that intentional?
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
That was intentional, yeah.
Because like I said, we wantedto, we don't want to overcrowd
places that are alreadyovercrowded.
I mean, there are a few iconictrails that get really busy, and
we talk about how it's good togo visit trails at off times.
I mean, like a peak Saturday inOctober, you know, you just need
to pick and choose where you gobecause it's could be really
busy and be expect that.
(09:17):
But but yeah, we did want toshow that diversity, and we have
it have a diversity of landmanagers in there too.
I mean, there's some that arenational forests, there's some
that are state parks, some thatare local governments, some that
are land trusts, some of the,you know, private nature
preserves with land trusts thatare open to the public.
But so it is a wide variety ofdifferent types of trails and
different features, like somehave views, some have water,
(09:39):
some have historical elements tothem.
So it meant it was really meantto be a variety.
And we feature three urbantrails.
So you might not think about anurban trail as a trail
experience, but like greenwaysand town and cities, and that
there's always art involved inthese trails.
It's interesting, and you'reright next to a lot of great
restaurants and places to go.
(09:59):
So it can be that can be its ownadventure outdoors, but it's
just a little bit more urbanthan say a trail back in the
forest.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Yeah.
Well, I love that because itexpands our view of what we
think trails are, and sometimeswe just think it's these big
high peaks that we have to gowalk and you know and get dirty
and drive for hours.
But sometimes that's all thatstuff is literally right there
in our backyard or in a regionright next to us that that we
haven't discovered yet.
And speaking of that, I'm reallycurious to know if any of these
(10:29):
sort of pairings really kind ofsurprised you, or you felt like
you found this hidden gem, likeyou discovered this hidden gem
of a of a place to hike.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
Well, yes.
I mean, we discovered a lot ofgems.
And so for us, we both live inGreensboro, and uh we've both
spent a lot of time in themountains.
And Hollis, my co-author, usedto live in the triangle.
Um, so it was very fun for bothof us to discover trails in the
Charlotte area because that wasnew to us.
But in a was what was really funwas discovering the little
(11:00):
communities around these trails.
And it was one time we were downthere doing a day of field work
and we ended up with a flattire.
When we went to get it fixed, welearned about the town of
Matthews.
It was right there in Matthews.
We'd never been to Matthewsbefore, and it was the cutest
town with some really greatrestaurants and brew pubs.
So that that was a fun accident,you know, that that led to the
(11:23):
discovery of a trail and sometreats that ended up being
featured in the book.
But some beautiful places likeFonta Flora Brewery in
Whipperwill.
I mean, that is is a stunningplace.
Um, there's so many, manyplaces, and some some ones we
really knew we wanted in thebook, like Google Healt Bakery
and Durham.
(11:43):
They also have a place in ChapelHill, but you know, you can and
fosters market.
I mean, those are just placesyou can't miss if you're in that
area because they're veryspecial and very distinct, if
you will.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Yeah.
And it also sounds like theseare some of these trails are
really kind of for every abilitylevel.
Like you didn't write this bookfor a specific population.
It's almost like you wrote thiswrit you wrote this book for
many populations and user group.
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Yeah, and I really feel like um all these books are
are accessible to people of allabilities and backgrounds.
They may not be accessible to tosay wheelchairs or you know,
rolled devices, but um, butthey're all like no matter what
your age or your background,there's a piece of all of these
trails that you could experienceand enjoy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Regardless of your ability.
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
I love that.
You mentioned or you touched onthis just a little bit, and I
know this is near and dear toyour heart, but how does food
and these local places reallyand you know, these trails
really help to tell a story of atrail or a community, Palmer?
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Well, I mean, first of all, Hollis and I both love
to eat.
So, and I and I think I'll haveto say that the give her the
credit for the inspiration forthe book.
Nice.
Um, she was really loves theoatmeal raising cookies from
Weaver Street Market.
And Weaver Street Market has uhone of their bakeries actually
in Hillsborough.
They also have stores in ChapoHill, and I think Raleigh too
(13:09):
now.
Um so she was trying to figureout a way to go get some more of
these oatmeal raising cookiesthat she loves so much, but she
needed to also get some exerciseso she could enjoy them
guilt-free.
And so um she paired it with avisit to the Okinee Speedway,
which is right there inHillsborough.
It's a cool, um, I don't know ifyou heard familiar with it, but
it's it's a NASCAR, formerNASCAR track.
It's it's really cool.
(13:30):
So that was one of that was theoriginal pairing of the book and
really the inspiration behindthe book.
And and so I think, you know,that's we both love food.
We both love to ex go get theoutside and do adventures
together, and it's just anatural combination for both of
us.
We also include some healthyrecipes in the book, and um,
(13:50):
they're kind of sprinkled inthroughout the chapters, and
there's things you can make andeat before you go, or make and
tuck into your bag so you canmunch on while you're on the
trail.
So it's just another option forcombining good and healthy foods
with your outdoor adventure.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Yes, and your sunrise egg cups, we did this.
Um yep, absolutely.
It's on page 155 of the book, infact.
Yep, we that's exactly what wedid on for a hike.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
Perfect.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
All right, I know we want to get into the Great Trail
State Day.
Maybe one last thing about thisbook.
What do you hope readers takeaway from trails and treats
beyond just trip ideas andbeyond just places to eat?
Whether, you know, anything elsethat you hope readers would take
away with this?
SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
Well, I think what we really want to do is inspire
people.
I mean, it's only 30 trails, soit's not the whole state, and it
can get you started, but I thinkit's also to help encourage
people who maybe haven'texperienced trails before to
just give it a try and startwhere you're at, and you can
(14:54):
build and you can go on to otherthings too.
But hopefully this book can helppeople get started and help
people who might already bestarted to discover some new
places.
So it really came out of a pointof inspiration because both of
us have benefited so much fromour time outdoors, growing up
(15:16):
with families who providedoutdoor experiences for us when
we were young.
And so it's just it's part ofour life, and we just want to
share that joy with others.
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
I absolutely love that.
And the book you can purchasethis book on uh Amazon, you can
purchase it at other places aswell.
Is there like a landing page forthis book?
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Is there Yeah, trailsandtreats.com.
There you go.
Yeah, trails and and is spelledout and d.
And it's all it's available in alot of local retailers too, like
REI stores, great outdoorprovision stores, um, Mass
General stores around the state,and a lot of local bookstores.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
Definitely support one of your local outfitters and
your local guide services thatare carrying this book.
They are really the trueheartbeat of a lot of our
communities when it comes togear in the outdoors,
information, and all thingsrelated to the outdoors, really.
All right, so let's pivot andlet's talk about this Great
Trail State initiative.
(16:14):
This is a really big deal.
And I know that we get excitedabout this because we are in
North Carolina, but we havelisteners in, I think the last
count was like 2,400 differentcities across the United States
and then in Europe as well.
And so they may not necessarilyknow this moniker, the Great
Trail State, here in NorthCarolina.
Um, I wonder if you can kind oftee that up again just a little
bit.
(16:34):
And then what has been your rolein this, Palmer?
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Well, the Great Trail State name really has come
out of it's building on, Iguess, North Carolina's
reputation as the Good RoadState, which was a grassroots
effort to help farmers get theirgoods to market.
And so North Carolina's alwaysbeen known as the Good Road
State.
But we wanted to bring that tothe next level and say that we
(17:02):
are the great trail state and wetruly believe it.
Um we are working on fulfillingthat vision.
And um, there are trails in allcorners of the state.
We'd love to see trails in all100 counties, but it really is
about delivering the benefits oftrails to all 100 counties
across the state.
And, you know, we talked aboutthose benefits earlier, but it's
(17:24):
the health and wellness, butit's also the economic
development benefits.
It's um not every town can havea factory.
Um, in fact, a lot of our smallcommunities have lost their
manufacturing base and they'restarting to look around and say,
what do we have?
And we have some amazing naturalassets.
And how can we leverage thoseassets for tourism?
(17:45):
And people come to NorthCarolina, people live in North
Carolina because they love ourlandscapes and they love our
outdoor recreationopportunities.
And so it's helping leveragethat and dispersing people
across and different communitiesto enjoy those particular
activities.
And the way I got involved in itis my day job is with Piedmont
Lane Conservancy.
I um I grew up in Greensboro,left for a long time because the
(18:08):
grass is always green on theother side of the fence, and had
to had to do that in order toappreciate North Carolina.
So when I landed back here inGreensboro, um, I started
working with Piedmont LaneConservancy.
And one of the things we do isum provide trails through our
nature preserves.
And as part of that, weorganized a regional initiative
(18:28):
where people, our differentpartners across the region were
just like, we there aren'tenough resources to do the work
around trails.
And so started connecting withother people across the state
and decided that let's dosomething as a at the state
level, let's get everyonetogether because people have
been working in their silos andlet's break those barriers down,
(18:48):
get together, and with oneunified voice, maybe we can have
an impact to show our stateleaders that an investment in
trail infrastructure is aninvestment that delivers a
really high return.
And so that's what we've beenworking on since about 2020.
And I just volunteered to helplead it.
So um so I kind of by accident,I mean, just kind of fell into
(19:13):
that.
But I've been helping lead itwith an amazing team of people
from across the state, includingIona McInna Thomas with McAdams
and Beth Heiley, who you'veinterviewed before, and many,
many, many others.
It's it's definitely a teameffort, but we've made a ton of
progress, Mike, and we'vesecured over$60 million for
(19:34):
trails since 2020 through theGeneral Assembly, and that's
that's gonna deliver amazingimpact for communities across
the state.
It is mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
That's mind blowing.
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Yeah, it's the first time.
Um it's the first time thatwe've gotten that type of
funding.
Um, the that that the state ofNorth Carolina has invested that
type of funding.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
So aggregate, what was that number again?
60 million?
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Over 61 million dollars.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
So naturally, or obviously it's not just you and
I and others that get excitedabout this being the great trail
state, but our statelegislatures have really sort of
come through, and this is thisis truly an all-in, all hands on
board, all hands on deck, so tospeak, um, effort to really
raise our state to really themoniker that it deserves being
the great trail state.
(20:18):
And you mentioned a lot ofpeople come to North Carolina to
visit, and obviously that's verytrue.
One of the things that um youjust shared with me, which I
mean, I knew the outdoorrecreation added about$14
million to the North Carolina'seconomy, but I was blown away
when you said, Yeah, Mike, justgo ahead and add 2.2 more
million dollars billion ordollars onto that because we're
up to 16.2 billion is whatoutdoor recreation adds to our
(20:42):
economy.
That's huge.
SPEAKER_01 (20:44):
It is huge.
And it's you know, it's a lot ofdifferent things.
It's guiding services or uhprovision companies, you know,
renting out equipment, it's bedand brick, Airbnbs, restaurants.
I mean, all that like relates tothe outdoor economy.
It is an ecosystem.
There's lots of different piecesto it.
But but and tourism is up inNorth Carolina too.
(21:05):
I mean, that keeps growing.
Um, visit and see does a greatjob marketing our state, but um
more and more people come toNorth Carolina to vacation.
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Are there any challenges you feel like you
still face in connecting andmaintaining trails statewide?
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Yeah, the there are challenges.
And I think one of the firstchallenges is helping elected
leaders understand thatinvesting in this type of
infrastructure is is reallyimportant and should be included
as as you think through roadsand sewer and sidewalks and
(21:40):
such.
I mean, it's a critical part ofcommunity infrastructure.
So plan for that.
Because whenever you do a parksand rec survey, um, people
always put trails at the top.
I mean, that is the most popularthing.
More people engage and canengage in that type of activity
activity than any other sportingfacility.
Yeah.
(22:00):
Um, so it's it's a very popularthing.
People want safe places to walkand to run and to ride their
bikes.
Um, so helping just demonstratethe importance of investment in
that type of infrastructure.
Then, of course, funding is achallenge.
I mean, it's always a challenge.
There's so much competition forfunding.
And so it's helping deliver themessage that you know, you spend
(22:21):
a dollar on a trail, you'll getback more than that every year
because there are new businessesthat spring up around that
trail.
You mentioned the Acousta Trailthere, and there's already a lot
of businesses around the AcostaTrail that are popping up, and
people come do the trail, theygo visit those businesses.
I mean, that's economic impact.
So it's an investment that thatdelivers, is what we're trying
(22:44):
to demonstrate.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
That's exactly right.
And you also mentioned earlierthat some of these communities
that may not have manufacturingor other large, large draws that
way economically, that thatthese outdoor places, these
natural assets can be reallykind of a bolster to local
economies and and communities.
And I'm wondering, like besidesthe Acousta, is there an example
(23:07):
of a project or maybe even acommunity that's really
benefiting from this initiativeof the Great Trail State?
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
I think there are many examples, but one I'll
point out is the town of OldFort.
There wasn't a whole lot goingon in Old Fort a decade or more
ago.
Um, there's been partners in inthe community who have been
working together to develop anetwork of trails in the
national forest, which butts upright against Piscah National
(23:38):
Forest, is right against OldFort.
And so they had the vision thatwe create this infrastructure,
we'll bring people into ourcommunity, and our community
will prosper and thrive.
And I was just speaking to oneof the partners there, Jason
McDougall, who um works at CampGreer and leads G5 Trail
Collective.
And he his quote, his directquote was like someone flipped a
(24:00):
switch in Old Fort.
You know, they got miles, 20some miles of this trail
infrastructure developed, andit's like someone flipped a
switch because all the lots ofnew businesses came into town.
It became a thriving place.
Hard to find a place to parksometimes.
So that's just a demonstrationof what trails can do for a
community.
SPEAKER_00 (24:18):
I love it.
Love it.
All right, well, let's uh focusa little bit on the actual day
of celebration here.
I know it's been all over yoursocials, and um I love seeing
it.
The Great Trail State Day isgoing to be Saturday, October
the 18th.
And how can people get involvedwith this?
How can they find out more?
And how can they just becompletely engaged with this
(24:39):
whole day?
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
Well, the first suggestion is to follow us on
social media at Great Trails NC.
And there we have a lot ofsuggestions and inspiration at
our website, which isgreattrailsnc.com.
There is an events tab, andthere are a lot of events going
on across the state.
Um, so you can maybe findsomething to do there.
(25:02):
And then the third thing is justto look around where you are and
see if there's a new trail you'dlike to try or an old favorite
and invite a friend who maybehasn't been on that trail before
and just get outside and enjoythe day.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Oh, great suggestions.
I absolutely love that.
It really sounds like we're notjust building trails in North
Carolina, but really kind ofbuilding community and
belonging.
And I think that tiesbeautifully back to your book.
So we could also use your bookas a great reference tool to
participate in the Great TrailState Day as well, right?
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
Absolutely.
I hope you can.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Oh, that's good.
That's good.
I'm I'm curious about stories,stories from the trail, stories
from communities, from hikersand businesses.
I know you mentioned Jason, uh,and I know those others that are
probably the tip of the tonguefor you, but who else are you
hearing from about how thesetrails are driving this bigger
(26:00):
trail movement here in NorthCarolina, Palmer?
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
Well, that is a big question.
And um we did we wrote a lot ofstories during Year of the Trail
um in the form of blogs.
And they were stories aboutpeople, and so not necessarily
like, oh, the you know, we grew13 businesses in five years in a
certain town.
(26:24):
Not necessarily that, but astory about people.
And one of them in particular, Iremember a woman who she had a
streak, and a street, you know,some some people know streaks
about social media where you'reon social media and you don't
stop.
But no, this is a streak whereshe was doing an outdoor
activity um every day for um theevery day during year of the
trail.
(26:44):
And so she found a trailactivity, whether even if she
was out of town for work, shewould find space in that day to
spend a little bit of time on atrail.
And that was transformationalfor her.
And then there's the Kaharitribe down in eastern North
Carolina where they wereuncleaning up and developing a
(27:08):
river trail and getting theiryouth involved and just seeing
the changes in the communitywhere they were investing in
this incredible natural assetand the impact that had on the
young people in that community.
And I mean, I could go on and onabout the stories.
Um, there's the group Find um inWestern North Carolina, where
(27:29):
they had a program where theywere bringing um Hispanic kids
and their families out onoutdoor adventures and just
life-changing.
Um, just there's so so manystories to tell.
And I encourage people to golook at our website and read
some of those stories at greattrailsnc.com.
SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'd be remiss if we didn'tactually cover what trails are
included because it's not justlike as we mentioned earlier,
trails I'm walking on, but we'retalking about blue ways,
greenways, and and trails.
These are all things that aremaking up the trails in our
great trail state, right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Yeah, when we say the word trail, it is very
expansive.
So it is paved trails, naturalsurface trails that you can hike
or mountain bike on.
Um it's equine trails, it'spaddle trails where you might be
paddling a canoe or kayak.
Um, so we can't say musclepowered trails.
(28:28):
Um, so that that is what theuniverse of trails that we are
trying to promote.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Any idea of the total number of miles of trails
that we have in North Carolina?
Did you know I was going to askthat?
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
Oh no, but it's so hard to say.
I honestly don't know.
We don't there is not onecomprehensive map of trails in
North Carolina.
And the reason is because thatis not an easy product to
create.
I bet.
Um, it because you havedifferent land managers, the
data sets, I mean, it's very,very complicated.
In fact, it was we have maps inour book of all the different
(29:01):
trails, and it was it was a bigjob to get all that data to
create those maps.
But um, you know, you can use anapp like trail forks or all
trails, or you know, you cansort of see that there are there
are just a lot, there arethousands of trails across the
state, probably.
Um, but I honestly I can't evenbegin to even guess how many
miles of trails.
SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
A lot, a lot of miles.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
A lot, a lot, and more to come.
SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right, that's right.
In fact, I am curious to knowlike when you look into the
foreseeable future, what do youhope that we'll be celebrating
about North Carolina's trails,say 10, 15 years from now?
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Well, our hope.
So speaking from the voice ofthe coalition, our hope is that
there is a recurring fundingsource for trails.
The state has some other fundsfor parks and for conservation,
like that part F, it's calledParks and Recreation Trust Fund.
And then there's the Land andWater Conservation Fund.
Those are recurring.
(30:00):
So we would love to see theGreat Trails State program be a
recurring fund that anycommunity can apply to for grant
funding to advance theirprojects.
And then the other thing is thatwe really truly live up to this
moniker of North Carolina beingthe Great Trails State.
And that's something thateveryone recognizes.
I mean, everyone recognizes thatVirginia is for lovers.
(30:22):
I mean, it just rolls off yourtongue, you know about it.
But we want everyone torecognize that North Carolina is
the Great Trail state.
So I'd love to see a combinationof those two things and just
more people getting outdoors andlearning about and caring for,
because stewardship is part ofthis.
We want to care for these spacesthat we're inviting people into
(30:45):
to experience.
But just more people engaged inthe caring of them and the
experiencing of them and valuingthem.
So that's there you go.
That's my hope.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
I love that.
That's a huge hope.
Are there any particularprojects that you're especially
excited about?
Some that you may not be able totalk about.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
No, I can.
So in our region, again, goingback to my my job with Pete Mont
Lane Conservancy, you know,we've been working on in this
idea to connect Greensboro toWinston-Salem through
Kernersville with a with atrail, a regional greenway.
And it's trail projects arehard.
I mean, they take a lot ofplanning, they take a lot of
time, and especially where theygo across multiple jurisdictions
(31:27):
and lots of different landownersand so forth.
And so that's that is somethingI'm hopeful to see some progress
on.
Um that would be a greatalternative to the white knuckle
I-40 experience that many peopledid getting between those two
cities.
So that that is a a particularhope of mine is to see that
project advance.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
Oh, that's so cool.
Well, I hope it does, um, forsure, because um just a small
example, we used to live inVirginia years ago, and there
was a, I think it was called theVirginia Capital Trail.
And I remember back in gosh, theearly 2000s, the idea, and I'm
sure that the the genesis ofthat idea came like way before
then, but there was an idea thatthey wanted to c uh connect like
(32:10):
52 miles from Williamsburg,Virginia to Richmond.
And that, you know, I rememberriding sections of that right
behind my house, you know, asfar up to the river,
Chickahominy River that I could,but now going back into
Virginia, you see that thattrail is is complete.
And it's amazing being able todrive through little small
wooded areas, you know, tofarmlands, to the urban area.
(32:32):
Um, you talk about a way toreally kind of experience where
you live in an entirely new way.
I mean, that is that is it.
And these trails are just waysto do that.
They're just trails are ways toconnect not only communities,
but just people within thosecommunities too, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (32:48):
Yeah, and it's not just about transportation,
although it is, but in additionto that, it becomes an
attraction.
And, you know, people visitWilliamsburg and Richmond just
to just to go on that trail,too.
So that's where you get yourbenefit from, too.
Just it makes a community a niceplace to live, a really nice
(33:09):
place to live when you can goout and have that kind of
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
Yeah, you're so right.
And you know, again, justanother small example from me,
and we talked about the AcoustaTrail not too long ago, but you
know, that trail, when I go onit and I see the number of
people that are, you know,clearly these bikes that were
pulled out of the garage,they've been in there for years,
but they're out there, they'reriding, and you have people, you
know, walking, and you know, mygirls, it's amazing, you know,
(33:34):
in the afternoon.
I I can look up and friendfinder where they are, and and
and nine times out of ten,they're gonna be at the acousta
market hanging right at theacousta trail.
And, you know, there's peoplethat are just on rollerblades
and skateboards and bikes andwalking and families and you
know, all ages.
It's just I'm seeing itfirsthand.
Like I I feel like I've beenaware of it with you know, the
(33:55):
things we're talking about andthe impact that you're you're
referring to.
But when you experience it, it'sit's it's life-changing, to be
honest with you, because you'rethinking about not just
yourself, but I'm thinking aboutour community as a whole and the
way that it's just drawing, andthen and then you're running
into people, you're like, gosh,I haven't seen them in a long
time, and all of a sudden herethey are on the Acoustic Trail.
(34:16):
That's what trails do for us.
SPEAKER_01 (34:17):
It's like a central park in a way, isn't it?
It brings people together.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Absolutely does.
Well, Palmer, I have absolutelythoroughly enjoyed this
conversation, and I know that wecould go a lot deeper on both of
these topics, but um, before Ilet you go, is there anything
that you really would love forpeople to understand, both about
your book or about the GreatTrail State Day or the Great
Trail State in general?
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Well, I mean, I think we've covered it, but I
really do hope that we can seetrails in all 100 counties and
see all communities benefit fromtrails in the future.
And um, yeah, just get out, getout there and discover it.
And hopefully the book can be aresource and a tool to just to
be a launching pad for for greatadventures for your families and
(35:02):
your friends and yourself, andwe'll all enjoy it because we
live in a wonderful place.
SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
Oh, so well said.
Well, Palmer, listen, thank youso much for joining me today and
really for everything thatyou're doing to help North
Carolinians connect with trails,food, and and these shared
experiences.
Thanks so much for what you doand your team.
I know that it's not alone, butI really appreciate all that you
all are doing together.
SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
Well, thank you so much, Mike, and happy Great
Trail State Day to you.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Happy Great Trail State to you, too.
North Carolina truly is theGreat Trail State.
Thanks to the communities,volunteers, and trail advocates
working together to make sureeveryone has a place to wander.
As we celebrate Great TrailState Day, remember that every
mile matters, from the greenwaysthat connect neighborhoods to
the rugged backcountry pathsthat connect us to nature.
(35:50):
Visit Great Trail StateCoalition.org to discover events
near you, learn how to getinvolved, or support the
statewide effort to promotetrails thriving in all 100
counties.
If Trails and Shrie inspiresyour next outing, share your
favorite trail and streetpairing with us on social media.
And if you participate in theGreat Trail State Day, be sure
(36:10):
to share your adventures usingthe tags at Great Trails North
Carolina, hashtag GreatTrailsNorth Carolina, and
hashtag Great TrailState.
So the celebration and thetrails get the spotlight that
they deserve.
Well, thanks for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, please leave me a
review and don't forget tosubscribe so you don't miss the
next episode.
(36:31):
Follow me on Instagram andFacebook and drop me a note at
Mike at explorationlocal.com ifyou ever have ideas for future
episodes, or if you just want tosay hello.
That's gonna do it for thisepisode.
As I always say, I encourage youto wander far but explore local,
especially on this Great TrailState Day.
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