May 21, 2025 • 52 mins
Trail by trail, North Carolina is weaving a network of connections that transforms how we move, gather, and experience our communities. The Ecusta Trail stands as a prime example—a visionary 20-mile rail-to-trail corridor that will soon link Hendersonville to Brevard along a historic railroad line that once united these mountain towns.
Joan Lyons and Emma Pindur, engineers with JMT, bring complementary perspectives to this transformative work. Joan studied in the Netherlands, learning from world-class cycling infrastructure before bringing those insights home. Emma, who grew up in Cherokee, brings deep local knowledge and a personal connection to the region's trails. Together, they're designing pathways that reflect the diverse needs of the communities they serve while honoring the landscape's natural beauty.
The impact is already visible—bike shops report surges in business as residents dust off long-forgotten bicycles. Families, seniors, and visitors alike are discovering safer, more accessible ways to explore. These trails are particularly vital for aging populations and those unable to drive, providing critical independence while simultaneously boosting local economies through increased tourism and community vitality.
Mike Andress
Host, Exploration Local
828-551-9065
mike@explorationlocal.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Across North Carolina , a growing network of multi-use
greenways is beginning toreconnect communities that were
once separated by busy roads,long distances or simply a lack
of safe options.
These trails are transformingnot only how we travel but how
we live, gather and explore, andat the heart of this movement
is the Acousta Trail, a planned20-mile rail-to-trail corridor
(00:21):
that will one day linkHendersonville to Brevard along
a historic railroad line.
Today we'll hear from two ofthe women leading this project,
Joan Lyons and Emma Pender, bothengineers with JMT, who are
combining global experience withdeep regional knowledge to
design trails that reflect andserve the diverse needs of these
communities, From the Acoostato the Inca Heritage Trail and
(00:44):
beyond.
This work reflects a broadercommitment across our state.
North Carolina is proudly knownas the Great Trail State, a
title that honors its vast andgrowing network of trails that
span mountains to coast, Fromgreenways, blueways and rail
trails to forest paths and urbancorridors.
These trails are helping toconnect people to place, promote
(01:06):
healthier communities andinspire a more sustainable,
accessible way to explore.
It's a statewide vision thatbrings together planners,
advocates and everydayadventurers who believe in the
power of trails to strengthenlocal economies, celebrate
natural beauty and createlasting community connections
and, as you'll hear in today'sconversation, that vision is
(01:26):
coming to life, one thoughtfulproject at a time.
So, whether you're a cyclist,walker, runner or just someone
who loves being outside, thisepisode is a window into the
people and passion behind theTrails of Tomorrow.
Let's hit the trail trail.
(01:51):
You're listening to ExplorationLocal, a podcast designed to
explore and celebrate the peopleand places that make the Blue
Ridge and Southern AppalachianMountains special and unique.
My name is Mike Andrus, thehost of Exploration Local.
Join us on our journey toexplore these mountains and
discover how they fuel a spiritof adventure.
We encourage you to wander far,but explore local.
Let's go.
(02:12):
Well, I am extremely excitedabout this particular episode
because it comes on the heels ofthe last episode, which was
about riding greenways and railsto trails and things that are
becoming near and dear to myheart as of late.
And it's really special becauseI don't have just one guest,
but I have two guests with metoday.
So I have Joan Lyons and I haveEmma Pender.
(02:34):
They are both with JMT andthey're going to explain a
little bit more about what JMTis here in a second and sort of
what their roles are, but Joanis a senior planner with JMT and
Emma is a design engineer, andthis is really going to dovetail
right in line with theAcoustiTrail, as well as some
other good surprises we have,Some you might've heard of and
(02:57):
others you may not have heardabout, but you're going to hear
about them today and I'm soexcited about that, for not only
you but for me too.
One of the things I always loveto do at the very beginning of
these episodes is kind ofunderstand a little bit about
who you all are and what sort ofdrives you and how you kind of
got into this work that you areinvolved with.
And, Joan, I'd love to kind ofstart with you sharing a little
(03:21):
bit about your background as anurban planner and, obviously, a
bike trail advocate, your rolewith JMT, and then also Women
Moving People is an organizationthat you're involved with.
But tell us a little bit moreabout you, Joan.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, thanks so much for the intro, mike, and also
for inviting us to record withyou.
It's always so fun to kind oftalk about the work, especially
when I work with people likeEmma.
You know we work sometimes insilos, and so it's nice to kind
of bring everybody together totalk about the awesome things
we're doing.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So, like you said, I work at JMT.
I'm a senior planner there andI've been with JMT for about two
years now.
And prior to working at JMT,I've worked in the public and
private sector, primarily in thetransportation space, but some
land use and economicdevelopment work for about 10
years now and I got into thisspace because I was really
(04:14):
interested in helping peopleconnect better to their
destinations because, I myselfwas experiencing my own
challenges with connecting topublic spaces when I went to LSU
for undergrad and it reallyinspired me to make a difference
in my community and I got veryfascinated with transportation
(04:34):
infrastructure while I was thereand I got my grad degree in the
Netherlands in urban planningat a university called Erasmus
that's in Rotterdam, a kilometersouth of Amsterdam Big bike
community, of course and so Ireally wanted to learn from the
best of the best for connectedand protected infrastructure,
(04:59):
and they're definitely leadingthe way and a lot of people want
to know how they're doing it,and so I wanted to bring that
back to the US and so, yeah,that's kind of a little bit of
my journey on the professionalside.
And then on the personal side,I started to work on this
concept called Women MovingPeople.
As you indicated, it is apersonal passion of mine.
It initially started offactually as a book concept,
(05:22):
which I'm still working on,started off actually as a book
concept, which I'm still workingon, but I think it can go far
beyond that, because a lot ofwhat I talk about on my website
and on my Instagram page isabout how women think about
public space and transportationso much differently than our
male peers, especially whenwe're in a male-dominated
industry, and so it's importantto kind of share best practices
(05:43):
and learn from one another andalso allow women to gripe a
little.
Sometimes it can be hard workingwith guys.
As much as we love them, welove the support.
It's just different, and someof the challenges that women
face in the workplace andoutside of the workplace can be
hard, and so having other womento lean on and support are great
(06:06):
.
So it's great that I'm kind offostering this community online,
also talking about bestpractices of transportation and
public space the part of it.
So I appreciate you giving me alittle shout out about that too
, yeah absolutely, yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And I didn't realize the part about Amsterdam.
We have a little bit of aconnection.
I spent some time in Amsterdamand in Europe Holland, rotterdam
, all of that back in the I'mgoing to age myself now, back in
the mid-70s, and I justremember just how much public
transportation and then alsopeople just being active and
(06:39):
biking all throughout the townor, excuse me, the cities.
So I think that's so very cooland it's so indicative of Europe
, just, I think, in general aswell.
Emma, let's turn our directionto you.
You are a local, you are backhere in Western North Carolina
and I'm not going to spoil therest of it for you.
But, emma, tell us a little bitabout who you are.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I'm like, yeah, thanks for having me and Joan
today.
It's always such a treat to getto do these types of things.
So I did grow up in the area.
I originally grew up inCherokee, north Carolina, and my
family kind of migrated over toBryson City and that's kind of
where I first got to experiencetrails.
I was a cross-country runner inhigh school so I really enjoyed
Deep Creek and Lonesome Pinearea and then eventually found
(07:22):
myself all the way up inConnecticut at Yale University
to learn some mechanicalengineering and when I came back
with my degree I really wantedto tie down roots back in this
area, just because it's sobeautiful the mountains are a
pretty hard thing to pass up andall the access to trails.
So it was really a priority forme to work here.
So I felt very fortunate thatJMT was willing to let me come
(07:44):
on as a transportation designengineer and I've really been
enjoying that work the last twoand a half years and getting to
work with people like JoanPretty great to have someone
that is really, I think, leadinga path in our industry and
making way for young women.
And I really appreciate that butit's really great now because
I'm getting to work on theAcosta Trail.
(08:06):
So the first time I heard aboutRails and Trails was actually
in Brevard.
Of all places, it was beforethis work had really started
launching.
I got to go for a cross-countryin high school, so it's really
cool now to actually be a partof the team that's putting that
together and getting it on theground.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about the
Agusa Trail, but there's acouple of other great trails
that we mentioned earlier thatwe're going to have a chance to
kind of dive into a little bitas well, with the Inca Heritage
Trail and the Monte DillsboroGreenway projects.
So I can't wait to dive intothat, and then I think we're
going to chat a little bit aboutthe Saluda Grade Trail as well,
some of the stages that that'sin and the people that you are
(08:42):
involved with.
But before we get there, joan,let's flip it back to you.
Let's find out a little bitmore kind of this professional
journey that you have been on toget you to the point where you
are such an advocate and anambassador for active
transportation and trails.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
So, like I said, what reallyinspired me and got me
interested in activetransportation and trails was
when I went to LSU.
I did not have a car, which alot of people thought I was
absolutely crazy, Because BatonRouge is a very car-dependent
city.
But I showed up.
I had no vehicle the entirefour years that I went to school
(09:19):
, and, you know, I started torealize once I moved off campus
how completely fragmented thecommunity was and that there
were job spatial mismatches forcommunity members, black and
brown communities in the Southand how it was
disproportionately affectingthem.
And so I myself, as a bikecommuter into school from about
(09:43):
six miles away, started to alsorealize that there were some
Vision Zero related issues thatwere happening.
At the time, Louisiana had thethird worst cyclist and
pedestrian deaths per capita inthe United States.
Now it's improved a little bit,it's not as bad, but it's still
pretty bad, and so I never havebeen someone in my career or
(10:04):
even when I was in school, tojust sit around and not do
something when there was aproblem, and so I created a
social advocacy organization forthe state of Louisiana called
Move Happy Louisiana, and it wasessentially to help educate
people about what is now coinedas Vision Zero zero.
So I was helping the city ofBaton Rouge and a couple of
other local jurisdictions, theuniversity, through the
(10:30):
transportation department,improve some of the existing
facilities, also put outinformation about surveys that
were happening that the publiccould answer questions to,
worked on some legislation atthe state level and really just
wanted to improve what washappening in the community.
I didn't know it at the statelevel and really just wanted to
improve what was happening inthe community.
I didn't know it at the timebut really what I was doing was
transportation planning.
(10:50):
And so then I went on to go tograd school and I really wanted
to learn, like I said, from thebest of the best that people
always talk about for activetransportation.
And so I went to Holland, gotmy grad degree there, came back
and yeah, just kind of beenmoving ever since in the active
(11:11):
transportation space, transit,rail trails, all of that type of
work I've been doing, like Isaid, for the last 10 years
almost and yeah, it's been greatchallenges along the way here
and there, but I like to keep itpositive.
For the most part I've had areally good run so far in my
career.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well, that's great, that's so cool.
So with this, the whole passionpiece started back in undergrad
and you saw an unmet need andyou were trying to address that
need and obviously you were abike commuter yourself, like you
said.
So this is really things thatyou are actively living out.
These aren't just an ethos ofthought.
This is like.
This is my life.
So it must have been a prettycool Eureka moment for you to
say, hey, I'm gonna go tograduate school in Europe
(11:52):
studying the things in thecontext of exactly what it is.
I'm passionate about Citiesthat you have, active
transportation and it's all overthe place.
That must have been a Eurekatype of moment for you.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Effective transportation and it's all over
the place.
That must have been a eurekatype of moment for you.
It really was, and you know Ihad such great support at LSU.
I love to shout out theiruniversity.
You know there are people likeEmma who go to Yale and Yale is
an amazing university, but LSUactually puts out more Truman
finalists, Albright scholars,than most Ivy League
institutions.
(12:24):
So I was a part of their honorscollege and they were fantastic
at providing support for me toget funding to go do these
amazing things and get grants orMove Happy Louisiana.
They really provided me withthe support that I needed to be
able to understand how I couldmake a change in the community
and then also affect thecommunities nationally, and so I
(12:49):
really, I really respect thepeople in the Honors College and
at the Mass CommunicationSchool.
I have a Mass Comm undergrad.
But, yeah, it's also interesting, I do.
I would be remiss withoutmentioning this, but like Emma,
I also was a runner.
You know, I got hit by a carright before I went to LSU and
(13:10):
it really kind of shocked me.
And now I look back at itbecause when you're 18, you know
, you don't know that likeyou're supposed to stop and like
even if someone runs away andthey they don't stay for the
accident, that this is an issue.
And now that I'm, you know,looking at crash reports all the
time for Vision Zero projects,there's so many different people
(13:31):
that are not documented forcrashes, and so I feel like the
passion kind of started wellbeyond just undergrad, because
I've always been someone that'sso active.
I really want to be able toexperience public space in a
different way.
I find that you know childrenthat are exposed to riding a
bike or walking on trails intheir communities with their
(13:54):
families.
They remember different littlethings about the community
before they even realize thatthey're experiencing this public
space in a way that's beforethey even realize that they're
experiencing this public spacein a way.
That's such a beautiful thing.
When we're in our cars, I findthat we're so fragmented into
this isolation, and so it's mygoal to reconnect our
(14:17):
communities in a way that peoplecan experience joy and
happiness.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love that.
I love that in so many ways andI have a sense of what you're
talking about.
I would say, probably withinthe last 30 days.
So it's that recent.
My daughter and I we rode inBrevard.
We rode from, essentially,pisgah Forest all the way into
downtown Brevard and one of thethings that she and I talked
(14:43):
about the entire time was, youknow, for as many years as we've
lived here and for as manytimes as we've driven these
roads, the greenways just showyou and these trails, they just
show you just an entirelydifferent part of the town that
you're not going to see whenyou're just sticking to the main
roads and you know going to thestore and doing all your
errands and you know just living, and so that's kind of what I
(15:05):
just took away from.
What you just said is that youknow that does allow you to
connect with the place that youlive, whether it's recreation or
transportation to get you knowto work or to run.
You know these errands orwhatever they may be, but it's
just a way to reconnect with or,excuse me, not reconnect but to
connect with our community.
That otherwise just isn'tpossible.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, and I feel like that's.
I know this is diverging alittle bit, but that's a really
good segue into another projectthat we're not going to talk
about too much.
I think JMT is actually workingon the 64 connections from
Pisgah Forest into the city ofBrevard and improving some of
those existing facilities withroundabouts, bike lanes and
improving that greenway thaty'all rode.
(15:44):
I'm actually working on thatproject right now, called NCDOT
Project R5800.
And we're getting closer andcloser to that project getting
wrapped up so that wholecorridor will actually be even
easier for you to like.
Public attitude shift aboutbike trails active mobility.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You know you can talk in terms of the acoustic if you
like, and I think you just kindof started to with 64.
But just like in general bigpicture, how are you seeing
public attitude shift about biketrails and active mobility?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I would say in the western part of the state,
speaking particularly to that,people really understand the
economic benefit of trails andwhat it brings to their
community.
I think that most countiesthroughout the western part of
North Carolina recognize howmuch trails bring to their
community beyond just theconnection and the sense of
(16:56):
place.
It gives them the ability tomarket what is there to
communities beyond just NorthCarolina.
People know our communities forthe trails.
That's why we're the GreatTrail State now.
And it's amazing to see all ofthe community members in the
(17:20):
western part of the state thatare working on trails like
Pizzeria, Zorba, like all thedifferent local governments
working with local nonprofits tomake sure that these trails are
world class world-class, Iwould put honestly.
(17:43):
I think by the time most ofthese projects are down on the
ground that we're going to talkabout today, I would put a lot
of these as comparison projectsto Bentonville.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I know Bentonville gets a lot of traction for what
they're doing, but they've gotfamily foundation funding, which
most communities don't haveaccess to.
That and the fact that thereare so many people rallying
together to go after grants andreconnect communities, not just
for transportation but forrecreation purposes, and
(18:10):
creating these places wherepeople feel like they can
connect with one another, that'sthe whole reason why we do what
we do, and I think that theattitude for trails in the
western part of North Carolinais very positive.
People understand what theybring.
Certainly, emma.
I would love for you to chimein as a local on this.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
I think the local perspective on my end would
definitely be that, growing up,western North Carolina just
feels like the most walkableplace.
It's not like an urban center,there's not a lot of access for
pedestrian bikes, so it's reallygreat to have all these trail
systems and these Greenwayprojects I feel like are really
connecting from the more naturalspaces to those city centers or
(18:53):
town centers and it's reallygreat to see just all the
positive impacts that's havingon the communities.
We're a very tourism driven area, I feel like, so it's really
awesome when the projects thatwe're doing not only support the
tourism but also the localcommunity and their health and
their happiness.
So I think that's the biggestpush I've seen with Greenways.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I love that and I think you hit the nail on the
head too there.
You know there are so manypeople that Joan and I were
talking last week or the weekbefore and we were so close to
the Acousta Trail and I knowthat it's not officially open,
but myself as well as you know,dozens of other people are out
there as well enjoying thistrail, but y'all, I am seeing
people like, like.
(19:36):
I'm seeing bikes that are beingbrought out that haven't
probably been ridden in a verylong time Kids bikes, I mean
just people walking.
The thing is, I was in a localstore recently it's called Next
Venture, actually in Brevard,and this, this gentleman was
telling me that people are justbringing their bikes out of the
(19:57):
woodworks to all these bikeshops now, trying to get them up
and running in anticipation ofthese trails being completed,
which is exactly kind of whatyou're saying, emmett.
So we haven't had these in thepast and so now you have all
these beautiful trails, or youknow miles and hundreds of miles
of trails out in the woods, butthese local greenways, this is
kind of a somewhat of a newthing for us and I think people
(20:18):
like the buzz.
I can tell you the buzz inHendo, hendersonville is big,
and it doesn't matter where yougo and what walk of life and it
doesn't matter the age.
People are incredibly stokedabout what's coming pretty soon.
Well, let's kind of dive in andtalk a little bit more about the
Acoustic Trail, because it's socool.
Emma, you said when you were inhigh school, you saw, you know,
(20:45):
you heard about this projectcoming to fruition.
And now here we are and you'reinvolved in it.
So it's been a long time comingno doubt about it and
Conserving Carolina, the Friendsof the Acousta Trail.
There's a lot of greatresources and we'll link those
for people to find out moreabout it.
But let's just kind of talkabout the sort of an overview of
the trail.
It has a really great historyand what are some of the things
that really kind of make thisnew up and coming trail special
(21:06):
y'all.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
The Acosta Trail is a 20 mile rail trail was a way to
connect the community via rail,and so that was a way for all
of these little smaller localcommunities in between
Hendersonville and Brevard toconnect to one another.
And then, over time, of course,rail is no longer there, but
(21:38):
they've got this resource.
And so, as you indicated, mike,conserving Carolina purchased
the railroad right-of-way andthere's also been some
additional funding for us to dodesign and planning that NCDOT
and all the differentcommunities partnered together
on a couple of years ago,together on a couple of years
(21:59):
ago, and that's kind of theimpetus for why this project is
now starting and close tofinishing, at least on one of
the portions.
So, jmt, we are involved in allthree sections of the Acusta
Trail.
I know I mentioned this earlierand you did as well, but there
is a section closest to theTransylvania section of where it
connects to Brevard, where wehave a great team partner that
(22:21):
we love and respect so much,nick Adams, and they're working
on the design side on that.
But all sections we've doneplanning and then Emma's working
on the Hendersonville sectionthat's currently underway for
design beyond the section thatis getting completed close to
y'all.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So Emma maybe share a little bit more about that
other section.
Is this the section from likethere in 64 in Horseshoe, kind
of like near Cognitive Brewhouseand Packers Place, and then
kind of going north?
Is that the kind of the nextsection that you're working on
planning, Emma?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Yeah, that's the one that I'm currently designing.
It kind of goes through Etowahthere and I actually was lucky
enough that when I first startedout the section that is already
paved right now that Mike andPam have already been riding on
through there I got to actuallyhelp with some of the kind of
tying of blue streams rightbefore it got put out to bid,
(23:20):
got to work on the permanentdrawings for that and help with
final design with our leaddesigner, alex Fitzpatrick, who
did that first section inHendersonville.
And so a year after that, whenwe completed that, I felt really
excited that JMT.
Let me start on the secondsection of the Acosta Trail as
my first lead for designengineering.
(23:42):
So so far it's been pretty great.
We got the 30% plan submittedjust before the hurricane.
So when Hurricane Colleen hitthat was definitely a setback on
design we had to go back out,collect the survey to make sure
that the alignment that we wereworking with still looks the
same post-storm.
(24:02):
So just in the last few weekswe've finally gotten an updated
survey back.
So we are chugging ahead onthis section of the trail and
hoping to get it put in the sameshape that our first section
was opening up in June.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
That's great.
Can you share a timeline Likeis there one for that next
section that you're working on,emma?
Or maybe even kind of definingor talking about the timeline
kind of helps us define all thatgoes into these trails, from
permitting to studies, to allthe submittals, everything you
all have to do.
I wonder if you can speak atall to any, and we won't.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
obviously we're not going to hold you any tight
timelines on this, but, yeah, Iguess I can kind of speak to
that a little bit, because Iunderstand what the initial goal
was for the final two sectionsthat are currently in design
since Emma's not working toomuch on the Brevard section but
the goal was that we wouldessentially go to construction
(25:03):
at the same time for bothsections, and there's a couple
of kind of things that we'reworking on on the fly as we
speak that are affecting some ofthe different changes for this
trail, particularly in theBrevard section.
Keep in mind that when we'rethinking about creating public
space and you've got a 20-milesection of a rail, trail how are
(25:26):
people going to get to thatrail trail?
Is there a way for them toconnect midway?
Is there a way that they canget access to other additional
amenities beyond that?
And so that's kind of what'shappening.
On that third section, closerto Brevard, they've just
realized, I think, over timethat there might be some
additional locations that theymight need to include as a part
(25:46):
of the study and the survey, andso we were working on some
additional things as a part ofdesign for that section.
That I don't think was initiallyanticipated, and so we're not
sure yet if the Hendersonsection that Emma's working on
right now might end up gettingcompleted before that Brevard
(26:07):
section.
But I think the goal is thatboth of the final two sections
will be done at the same time.
As for specific dates, Iprobably can't speak directly to
those quite yet just because ofwhat's happening with the other
section, but everybody'sworking on it and I know it's a
big priority to get it toconstruction.
Especially with the fundingrequirements that they have for
(26:30):
the grant, they have to get itdone within a specific time
frame, so it should be done, inmy best estimate, in the next
couple of years once it'sfinally constructed.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, so, yeah, so it's not a straight path,
obviously.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
One thing that you know, I think was one of the
biggest challenges of thisproject that we faced.
We were very close on designfor both of the sections at the
same time as Colleen hitting ondesign for both of the sections.
At the same time as Colleenhitting, and as Emma kind of
indicated, they had to go outand re-survey the existing
(27:04):
conditions of the site becauseit had changed so much and I
think that that certainly hasaffected this project and the
dates exponentially.
When site conditions change,they may have to deviate from
the existing right-of-way.
What does that mean?
Like is there something else?
(27:25):
Like, if we're going back, likeare there other things that we
need to reconsider to make thisa really good amenity?
And I think that that's kind ofwhat is happening right now,
but I think it's all good things.
It's sounding like, overall,this is a win, that we're kind
of going back, even though youknow, it may not seem like that.
Of course, Halloween is not fun.
(27:47):
And I don't wish what happenedto the communities in the
western part of the state toanyone, especially when it
delays projects like this thatreally would connect communities
.
But I do think that there aresome changes that are coming as
a result of that that are goingto make it a better facility in
the long run.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
What do you hope that this does, this Acousta Trail
and this is probably a I knowit's a big, broad question what
do you all hope to do or hopethat this trail is going to
accomplish once it's finally upand running 20 mile stretch,
hendo to Brevard?
What are some of your hopes forthis trail and what it does for
(28:29):
the community?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I think that this project has been in fruition for
so long that the communitygoing to be so much excitement
and happiness when all 20 milesare completed, there's going to
be people.
I'm sure that will turn it intosome sort of challenge to bike
all the way from one end to theother, and I think that's really
great.
But I think ultimately it'sgoing to provide this space for
(28:52):
locals to connect with eachother, with the environment that
we're so lucky to be a part of,and the economic impact.
You've already seen it with allthe bikes you were telling us
about, mike.
The bike shops are exploding,people are coming in and out and
everything.
People are just excited for it.
I think having spaces wherepeople can connect with nature,
(29:14):
connect with their communities,that's going to be the biggest
thing.
With the Acosta Trail comingout, because it's already such a
beautiful area, people arealready biking on just the
gravel left over from therailroad.
So just having a safer spacewhere people can bring their
kids, their grandparents andjust the whole community,
generationally can connect aswell, it'll be a lot safer too.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That's so cool.
As you're talking, Emma, I'mlike little images are popping
in my brain of the three timesthat I've ridden it, of all the
population groups that you'retalking about.
So it's just, it's more thantheory, it's like it's real and
it's definitely, it's definitelyhappening.
I would love to ask you allabout the parking.
Joan, we talked about this alittle bit before, so I know
(30:00):
like parking is going to beavailable at the.
I can see the big you knowlarge parking lot right near
downtown Hendersonville, butwhen you start to head north, do
you have an idea of where theseother parking places or trail
heads or access points might be?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
One of the connections that will be a
bigger hub on the other end inBrevard will be at the Oscar
Blues Brewing where the existingtrail for Brevard Greenway
connects.
So Brevard Greenway willactually be an extension of
Acosta to connect into the cityof Brevard, so that will be a
bigger hub.
Certainly, people can alsoconnect with the city of Brevard
(30:50):
through that 64 corridor that Iwas talking about and park at
some of the locations near there, and then Pisgah Forest will
have some additionalopportunities as well through
the 64 corridor.
As for that other site in themiddle, they're still evaluating
it so I probably can't sharetoo much on that yet, but
there's going to likely beanother location, um, somewhere
(31:14):
kind of like a midpoint of thetrail.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
So yeah, I'm also right in saying that there is
other parking areas kind of justalong, like small, not full on
parking lots, but there aregoing to be like little
waypoints along the way, like ifyou're just parking a couple
cars, sort of thing, throughoutthe trail system for all 20
miles.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Well, the Acousta is getting all the noise right now
because it's on the ground, butthere's a whole lot more that's
going on in this area.
Just geographically speaking,we sort of jumped to the west a
little bit and there's a coupleof projects and I'd love for you
to share whatever level you can.
I don't know what kind of anondisclosure agreement or
anything else that you havegoing on, but anything you can
share I would love to shareabout the Inca Heritage Trail
(31:56):
and the Monte Dillsboro.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I'm all ears, and I know our listeners are too.
So Inca Heritage Trail is atrail that's essentially going
to connect along Hominy Creeknear the Bob Lewis Ballpark
upper field and the BuncombeCounty Sports Parks.
So they're trying to reconnectsome of those different
resources together.
So it's also kind of referredto as Inca Heritage Trail and
Harmony Creek Greenway there'slike two different names, okay,
(32:24):
but we're working on thatproject.
There's been some delays inthat one.
You know.
The goal is that there's goingto be some other like smaller
amenities along there for peopleto connect into some of the
existing facilities also in Inca, which will be great, because
there's just some otherrecreational resources in that
area that need to be connected.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Okay, and then you have the Monteith-Dillsboro
Greenway Projects.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
The Monteith and Dillsboro Project is a complete
street project in a greenwayextension from the Appalachian
Women's Museum.
So that museum is a NationalRegister property.
It's a historic site.
And so the goal is that therewas a old bridge near Scotts
(33:09):
Creek that connected a road overthere, but they're going to
turn it into kind of like ashared street concept and there
will be like a prefab,prefabricated pedestrian bridge,
multi-use path bridge that'llgo in lieu of that existing
railroad connection that thereused to be to connect the
communities of Hillsborough andSilva together.
(33:32):
So it'll be really cool to seewhat that ends up looking like.
We're pretty early on in thedesign stages for that project
and certainly when you have thecommunity facilities at Monteith
, farmstead and Community Park,we have to be very particular
about how we're affectingNational Register properties and
their sites, and so thatproject will probably take a
(33:53):
little bit longer to get on theground because of that.
But we're working on that againwith our teaming partner
McAdams.
Again, love to shout them out,but they're doing some awesome
work too and it'll be reallycool to see what ends up that
project.
I think especially becausethere was that existing
connection near the Heraldsupermarket and yeah, it's going
(34:14):
to be very, very helpful forcommunities to get access to
that recreational resource aswell.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Oh man, I just absolutely love that.
Yeah, and two just wonderfullittle communities to kind of
hang out and tour around inDillsboro and Silva.
I mean they're just phenomenallittle towns and it kind of
reminds me of something thatEmma was saying earlier too,
just about how these greenwaysare really connecting.
They're like connection pointsfor a lot of these different
(34:41):
communities, so they're not justkind of in a silo and you don't
just have to get in your carand, you know, go drive to each
of these little areas to be ableto go from you know hanging out
and having a cold beer atInnovation Brewery and be able
to get on your bike and ridenorth into Silva and explore it.
Just it opens up so much moreopportunity for people, I think.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I think you're right, Mike.
I would say that I'm reallyexcited for this one.
Joan was telling me about itearlier today, and our office is
right across from HaroldSupermarket so I think I'm going
to really enjoy once this onegets on the ground, so enjoy the
connections between Dillsboroand Silva.
I could walk to lunch or biketo lunch if I wanted to on my
breaks in the office.
So definitely looking forwardto that community connection.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, speaking of another little town and another
project, and I know this is notone that you all are actively or
excuse me, you're not likerunning point on this project,
but you mentioned the McAdamsGroup and the Saluda Gray Trail,
so that's, you're kind ofpartnering in some ways with
them on that.
I love to hear you know.
Whatever you know you know,spill the beans on this one.
I want to know a little bitmore about Saluda Grade.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I don't know too much about Saluda, but I know that
they're working on it.
It's been a baby for them.
I've heard that it's going tobe an awesome trail.
Highly recommend having anotherpodcast episode with them as a
follow-up on this.
Teresa is a great resource andChristy Stout as well.
(36:03):
But, yeah, they're doing thegroundwork on that one and I'm
very excited about what FLUDAwill bring in conjunction with
all these other projects that wehave in the western part of the
state, because, like theselittle connectors, like they
provide great resources to thelocal communities but then they
also connect some of thedifferent regional resources
together so that it makeswestern North Carolina what we
(36:26):
call the Great Trails State andthe Great Trails region.
I think of North Carolina, Iknow certainly there are eastern
Carolina trails that are greatthat we're working on, like in
Corolla, but I think that thisone is going to be a big one,
same with Acousta, and thelittle ones that connect in
between are also just asimpactful and serve those
(36:47):
localized communities anddifferent needs and concerns
that they have.
So I'm excited to see how Saludaand Acousta together end up
transforming some of our smallertowns surrounding them and the
local communities, because Ihave a feeling that so many of
them are going to end upbenefiting exponentially more.
(37:07):
Like I said, I just I really Ikeep on honing in on it, but
like it's a big benefit to thecommunity when we have these
connections, and I think Saludaand Acosta are probably like the
big, you know, flashy ones, butlike the smaller ones, to
probably provide just as much ofthat back in revenue to these
(37:29):
communities.
There's so many more likeshovel-ready projects, just like
this, which is why we startedto create the Great State Trails
Coalition, so that legislatorsin the state of North Carolina
could really understand theimpact that they provide to
communities.
95% of the time when I'mworking on a bike pet plan or
(37:51):
I'm working on a land use plan,the number one thing that people
really want to know is how canI walk there?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
How can I?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
bike there.
How can I get there withouthaving my car?
And unfortunately this goesinto a much bigger thing.
I like to talk about a lot.
The state of North Carolina has80% of its road right-of-way
being owned by the state and wedo not fund bicycle and
pedestrian projects as a part ofthe state transportation
(38:23):
improvement plan.
It's a big soapbox thing for me.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, keep going, I'm listening.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Removing the limitation is imperative for the
funding limitation so that wecan actually create better
investments that connect alldifferent types of community
members, and so my goal is thatthe legislature will eventually
repeal that.
But it is amazing that the GreatState Trails Coalition has
(38:51):
actually created so much outcryfrom community members like in
the western part of NorthCarolina and in these
communities where tourism islike a big factor for them, to
get standalone funding fortrails and greenways.
That was not a thing beforehand.
When I think about bicycle andpedestrian projects, it is
(39:12):
multi-use paths, but certainlysidewalk infrastructure is more
a part of that conversation, aswell as bike lanes.
But it is something that isamazing that Great Seas Trails
Coalition has been able to dowithin the last three years of
them really really doing thework about why this is an
important need, because thesedifferent amenities truly
(39:33):
transform rural communities,local economies.
They make the places better fortheir local focus, while it's
not just like for tourism.
There's many people that areaging in place in the western
(39:53):
parts of the state that needaccess to amenities for their
health and they can't drive.
Disabled populations or elderlyare not able to drive, most
likely to not so being able toprovide these different things
to them is also important too.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
The justification is obviously there and it sounds
like the momentum in the lastdecade or so has definitely been
picking up much more work to do, but with people like yourself
and Palmer McIntyre and othersyou know across the state doing
the work that they're doing.
That's.
I think that's, that's huge,which I think is kind of a
little segue into the womenleading in transportation piece,
(40:30):
where I'd love to kind of talkabout that a little bit more,
because I watch your socialmedia for women moving people
and I see all the things you'redoing.
You've already said that you'rea commuter yourself, but you're
experiencing I don't know whatyou call it, not a renaissance
in the eastern part of the state, but there's so much work,
(40:50):
there's so much buzz aroundthese trails and around the
biking and the communities andeverything that you're involved
with in the eastern part of thestate, and I'd love to kind of
hear a little bit more justabout the Women Moving People
piece too.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I created the concept after I started to experience
in a professional setting, majorchallenges and setbacks and I
realized as I was going throughit that I was using writing as
an outlet to talk about some ofmy frustrations and then,
through that whole process,started to realize, as I talked
(41:26):
to other women, that this is ahuge challenge.
Working in the architecture,engineering and construction
space as a woman can be anuphill battle for a lot of
people and it's unfortunate thatit is that way, but it is the
case for a lot of women.
And so I again, like I saidearlier, never want to be
someone to just sit around andact like things aren't a problem
(41:48):
, not talk about them.
So that is why I created this,why I post about it all the time
.
And you know, it's not justabout, like, the professional
setting.
It's about how I think abouttransportation, design, planning
, public space, how I experiencepublic space, or some other
(42:10):
woman experience public space,because we are not, we're not
the same.
Like Emma might have a verydifferent experience than I
would because she grew up inCherokee.
Like I don't.
I don't know her space.
But also it's like, why aren'twe talking about this?
Like when we're in such amale-dominated industry.
Women want to make theseawesome things happen.
Like you said, mike PalmerMcIntyre and Iona Thomas have
(42:37):
done amazing things with theGreat State Trails Coalition and
what they've been able to build.
Those are both women that areleading this effort in North
Carolina.
I'd love to talk about JulieWhite.
Julie White is the DeputySecretary of NC DOT.
She is doing amazing things tohelp get things like the
Raleigh-Richmond line off theground, making sure that the
(42:58):
integrated mobility division aredoing these amazing things.
That's a Gallup.
She's the third NTDOT divisionengineer in the state of North
Carolina.
It is a woman.
These are all things thatthey've had to fight for, and
when you have to fight for stufflike that, it sucks, because
(43:18):
sometimes it is an uphill battleand you have to keep on having
conversations with people.
You have to.
You have to set yourself up tosay I am the expert in this, why
?
And sometimes people may noteven listen to you when you say
that.
You know we spent all this timetalking about all the amazing
things that Emma and I know thatI could tell you that there are
probably some people that wouldbe like I don't know about
(43:40):
these girls, man.
They seem like they may notknow what they're doing, but we
do and that's why representationreally does matter in the
planning and infrastructure anddesign space, because we think
about it differently and we putin the impetus to put in the
legwork to make these thingshappen.
(44:00):
And so I am looking to sharethose stories and talk more
about them as a part of the bookand on my socials.
So that's a little bit aboutthe impetus of that.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I love that and I know it's a name that you know,
if you know Palmer McIntyre.
But the other one that comes tomind for me is Beth Heil.
She is now the executivedirector of the Burke River
Trail Association but theFonteflores State Trail.
She was really instrumental inmaking all of that come to life,
and I know that in all of theseprojects that there are a team
(44:35):
of people that work.
But there is always that personwho's the champion and who
really sort of says you know,like you, I'm not just going to
sit by, I hope somebody elsedoes this, I'm going to step up
and do it.
And beth was very much that wayin burke county as well.
So she is a definitely somebodyto add to your list into your
book of of a woman of influence.
For sure.
She's the fire behind a lot ofstuff that happens in burke,
(44:57):
Fonteflora and other stuff aswell.
So she's a wonderful humanbeing.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Love it.
Yeah, see, now you know why Iwait a little bit, everyone.
I want to make sure that I getall the stories right, you know.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
There you go.
That's great, all right, sobefore we sign off, we're going
to go through a lightning round.
I am very interested to knowthese questions.
They're all about trails andthey're all about some of
y'all's favorites.
So we'll just kind of go rapidfire.
Joan, I'll go with you First onthis one, and then, emma, you
can go after Joan, the favoritetrail You've ridden or walked.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I have to say, because it's Such a long trail,
the East Coast Greenway, such acool trail that connects all the
way from the top of the EastCoast in Maine all the way down
to Florida.
I've not done the whole trail,but the sections near where I
live are amazing and East CoastGreenway does amazing work, so
(45:57):
got to shout them out.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Awesome.
That's on my bucket list too,by the way, emma.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
My favorite trail is definitely Lonesome Pine in
Brighton City.
It's kind of in the Deep CreekTrail system in the National
Park and it was a bit of atorture to bike in high school.
Our final summer training wasto go up that mountain, but the
view is remarkable at the topand totally worth it.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
So that's my favorite .
Awesome, awesome, all right,and Emma, we'll go with you
first on this one, your dreamtrail trip, like anywhere in the
world.
What's your dream trail trip?
Speaker 3 (46:38):
I think I'm definitely a homebody, but a
different.
A dream of mine is to hike thewhole appalachian trail.
Um, so that's, that's minethat's a good one.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
That's a good one.
How about you, joan?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
I really love the colorado trail.
Um, I've hiked some sectionsbut I've not done the full
section.
That's where I'm fromoriginally, um, but then I also
have been very interested indoing the mst the mountains to
sea trail.
I've hiked some sections butI've not done the full section
where I'm from originally.
But then I also have been veryinterested in doing the MST, the
Mountains to Sea Trail, thewhole way from the coast of
North Carolina, all the way tothe west, nice.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Very good, all right.
Next question has a little bitof a Palmer McIntyre kind of
vibe to it, because she justwrote her book about trails and
places to eat.
So this one's going to be ashout-out to Palmer.
She's the inspiration.
What is your favorite coffeeshop or local place near a trail
that you love?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Mine is Monkton, mongoose, which is not actually
in North Carolina.
This is in Colorado, where Iused to live, but there are
these really amazing bluffs thatare outside of the Lone Tree
Colorado area, and I used tolive in the same building as
Monk and Mongoose.
That's why mixed usedevelopment is amazing.
(47:49):
So I would go hike or run everymorning when I lived in this
area and then every morning whenI get done I would go to my
local coffee shop in my buildingafter I'd be on these amazing
bluffs.
Yeah, I love Monk and Mongoose.
I had my little bridal showerthere, so I'll shout them out
Nice, nice.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Nice, I love it.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
I love the stories behind them too.
That's cool.
All right, Emma, your turn.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Yeah, my favorite coffee shop is we call it Coffee
with a K, but it's just Coffeequestion mark, and it was a part
of Just off of the New HavenGreenway trails, Somewhere I
went to school, so that'sprobably my favorite.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Very nice, alright, and our listeners Probably could
already gather this nextquestion From all that you all
have already shared.
But, joan, we'll go to youfirst on this one question from
all that you all have alreadyshared.
But, joan, we'll go to youfirst on this one.
And then, emma, to you.
Words you live by when it comesto community building.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
I would say I share kindness and understanding and
recognize that everybody hasdifferent needs and concerns,
that they need to be addressedin their community, and so being
able to hear people out andrecognize what those concerns
are and do it in a loving way ismy sense of community building.
(49:06):
I want to make sure that nobodyis really left behind in the
process, and that's why I'm aplanner.
I want to make sure that allthose different concerns are
outlined as a part of a project,and that's what I live by for
community building.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Good answer.
All right, Emma, I'm dying tohear yours.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
I think my biggest thing with community building
especially as I've watchedWestern North Carolina grow
through my lifetime is likereally having a balance between
the local population and anysort of economic goals we have
with tourism and I think Joantouched on it very well for
kindness and caring for thedifferences that different
(49:46):
communities have.
So that's like a big thing forme, just making sure we strike a
good balance and supporting thepeople that live here and the
people that want to come andvisit here and enjoy it for what
it is.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Well, listen y'all, I can't thank you enough.
I know that we said it a momentago that we could probably go
deep in a lot of these thingsand talk.
You know there's probably fouror five more episodes out of
this one, but thank you all somuch for taking the time out of
your day.
Number one, but number two, andprobably most importantly,
thank you for all the work thatyou all are doing in this space,
because you all are both notonly advocates and ambassadors,
(50:19):
but it's truly a passion, and itcomes through in this
conversation.
It comes through in pastconversations, Joan, that we've
had.
So I really can't thank you allenough for everything that
you're doing to make thesetrails and make these things
important and accessible toeveryone.
And as somebody who lives inthis particular community, where
you all are directlyresponsible for building some of
(50:40):
these trails, I honestly cannotthank you enough.
And I know, on behalf of allthe people that live in this
region too, I know I would bespeaking for them too when I say
thank you.
So it's been a joy to have youon.
I can't wait to kind of stay intouch and see the other things
that you all are involved withand working through.
But again, just thank you somuch for taking the time to come
on the show and spread someknowledge.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Of course.
Well, thank you for inviting us.
We love talking about the workthat we do, and it's great to
share best practices and how we,as women, work on in the trail
space, so we greatly appreciateit.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
We really appreciate you, Mike.
It's been a treat today.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
As we heard today, the Acoosta Trail, the Inca
Heritage Trail and otherprojects like them are more than
just pathways through the woods.
They're pathways to connection,to accessibility and to a
stronger sense of place.
These trails are still beingbuilt, but the groundwork is
already transforming the waycommunities plan for the future.
Local economies are preparingfor new foot traffic, families
are looking forward to safer,more scenic ways to get outside,
(51:40):
and towns across western NorthCarolina are embracing the idea
that trails can be bothrecreational and revolutionary.
All of this is part ofsomething bigger.
North Carolina is the GreatTrail State, and that title is
more than a slogan.
It's a shared commitment tobuilding a trail network that
unites people across geography,generations and backgrounds.
(52:00):
The work is ongoing and it'spowered by people like Joan,
emma and countless others whobelieve in the role of trails to
strengthen communities from theground up.
Thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, leave us a review
and don't forget to subscribe soyou don't miss the next episode
.
You can follow me on Instagramand Facebook and drop me a note
(52:21):
at mike at explorationlocalcom,if you ever have ideas for
future episodes or you just wantto say hello.
That's going to do it for thisepisode.
As always, I encourage you towander far, but explore local.
Across North Carolina , a growing network of multi-use
greenways is beginning toreconnect communities that were
once separated by busy roads,long distances or simply a lack
of safe options.
These trails are transformingnot only how we travel but how
we live, gather and explore, andat the heart of this movement
is the Acousta Trail, a planned20-mile rail-to-trail corridor
(00:21):
that will one day linkHendersonville to Brevard along
a historic railroad line.
Today we'll hear from two ofthe women leading this project,
Joan Lyons and Emma Pender, bothengineers with JMT, who are
combining global experience withdeep regional knowledge to
design trails that reflect andserve the diverse needs of these
communities, From the Acoostato the Inca Heritage Trail and
(00:44):
beyond.
This work reflects a broadercommitment across our state.
North Carolina is proudly knownas the Great Trail State, a
title that honors its vast andgrowing network of trails that
span mountains to coast, Fromgreenways, blueways and rail
trails to forest paths and urbancorridors.
These trails are helping toconnect people to place, promote
(01:06):
healthier communities andinspire a more sustainable,
accessible way to explore.
It's a statewide vision thatbrings together planners,
advocates and everydayadventurers who believe in the
power of trails to strengthenlocal economies, celebrate
natural beauty and createlasting community connections
and, as you'll hear in today'sconversation, that vision is
(01:26):
coming to life, one thoughtfulproject at a time.
So, whether you're a cyclist,walker, runner or just someone
who loves being outside, thisepisode is a window into the
people and passion behind theTrails of Tomorrow.
Let's hit the trail trail.
(01:51):
You're listening to ExplorationLocal, a podcast designed to
explore and celebrate the peopleand places that make the Blue
Ridge and Southern AppalachianMountains special and unique.
My name is Mike Andrus, thehost of Exploration Local.
Join us on our journey toexplore these mountains and
discover how they fuel a spiritof adventure.
We encourage you to wander far,but explore local.
Let's go.
(02:12):
Well, I am extremely excitedabout this particular episode
because it comes on the heels ofthe last episode, which was
about riding greenways and railsto trails and things that are
becoming near and dear to myheart as of late.
And it's really special becauseI don't have just one guest,
but I have two guests with metoday.
So I have Joan Lyons and I haveEmma Pender.
(02:34):
They are both with JMT andthey're going to explain a
little bit more about what JMTis here in a second and sort of
what their roles are, but Joanis a senior planner with JMT and
Emma is a design engineer, andthis is really going to dovetail
right in line with theAcoustiTrail, as well as some
other good surprises we have,Some you might've heard of and
(02:57):
others you may not have heardabout, but you're going to hear
about them today and I'm soexcited about that, for not only
you but for me too.
One of the things I always loveto do at the very beginning of
these episodes is kind ofunderstand a little bit about
who you all are and what sort ofdrives you and how you kind of
got into this work that you areinvolved with.
And, Joan, I'd love to kind ofstart with you sharing a little
(03:21):
bit about your background as anurban planner and, obviously, a
bike trail advocate, your rolewith JMT, and then also Women
Moving People is an organizationthat you're involved with.
But tell us a little bit moreabout you, Joan.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, thanks so much for the intro, mike, and also
for inviting us to record withyou.
It's always so fun to kind oftalk about the work, especially
when I work with people likeEmma.
You know we work sometimes insilos, and so it's nice to kind
of bring everybody together totalk about the awesome things
we're doing.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So, like you said, I work at JMT.
I'm a senior planner there andI've been with JMT for about two
years now.
And prior to working at JMT,I've worked in the public and
private sector, primarily in thetransportation space, but some
land use and economicdevelopment work for about 10
years now and I got into thisspace because I was really
(04:14):
interested in helping peopleconnect better to their
destinations because, I myselfwas experiencing my own
challenges with connecting topublic spaces when I went to LSU
for undergrad and it reallyinspired me to make a difference
in my community and I got veryfascinated with transportation
(04:34):
infrastructure while I was thereand I got my grad degree in the
Netherlands in urban planningat a university called Erasmus
that's in Rotterdam, a kilometersouth of Amsterdam Big bike
community, of course and so Ireally wanted to learn from the
best of the best for connectedand protected infrastructure,
(04:59):
and they're definitely leadingthe way and a lot of people want
to know how they're doing it,and so I wanted to bring that
back to the US and so, yeah,that's kind of a little bit of
my journey on the professionalside.
And then on the personal side,I started to work on this
concept called Women MovingPeople.
As you indicated, it is apersonal passion of mine.
It initially started offactually as a book concept,
(05:22):
which I'm still working on,started off actually as a book
concept, which I'm still workingon, but I think it can go far
beyond that, because a lot ofwhat I talk about on my website
and on my Instagram page isabout how women think about
public space and transportationso much differently than our
male peers, especially whenwe're in a male-dominated
industry, and so it's importantto kind of share best practices
(05:43):
and learn from one another andalso allow women to gripe a
little.
Sometimes it can be hard workingwith guys.
As much as we love them, welove the support.
It's just different, and someof the challenges that women
face in the workplace andoutside of the workplace can be
hard, and so having other womento lean on and support are great
(06:06):
.
So it's great that I'm kind offostering this community online,
also talking about bestpractices of transportation and
public space the part of it.
So I appreciate you giving me alittle shout out about that too
, yeah absolutely, yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And I didn't realize the part about Amsterdam.
We have a little bit of aconnection.
I spent some time in Amsterdamand in Europe Holland, rotterdam
, all of that back in the I'mgoing to age myself now, back in
the mid-70s, and I justremember just how much public
transportation and then alsopeople just being active and
(06:39):
biking all throughout the townor, excuse me, the cities.
So I think that's so very cooland it's so indicative of Europe
, just, I think, in general aswell.
Emma, let's turn our directionto you.
You are a local, you are backhere in Western North Carolina
and I'm not going to spoil therest of it for you.
But, emma, tell us a little bitabout who you are.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I'm like, yeah, thanks for having me and Joan
today.
It's always such a treat to getto do these types of things.
So I did grow up in the area.
I originally grew up inCherokee, north Carolina, and my
family kind of migrated over toBryson City and that's kind of
where I first got to experiencetrails.
I was a cross-country runner inhigh school so I really enjoyed
Deep Creek and Lonesome Pinearea and then eventually found
(07:22):
myself all the way up inConnecticut at Yale University
to learn some mechanicalengineering and when I came back
with my degree I really wantedto tie down roots back in this
area, just because it's sobeautiful the mountains are a
pretty hard thing to pass up andall the access to trails.
So it was really a priority forme to work here.
So I felt very fortunate thatJMT was willing to let me come
(07:44):
on as a transportation designengineer and I've really been
enjoying that work the last twoand a half years and getting to
work with people like JoanPretty great to have someone
that is really, I think, leadinga path in our industry and
making way for young women.
And I really appreciate that butit's really great now because
I'm getting to work on theAcosta Trail.
(08:06):
So the first time I heard aboutRails and Trails was actually
in Brevard.
Of all places, it was beforethis work had really started
launching.
I got to go for a cross-countryin high school, so it's really
cool now to actually be a partof the team that's putting that
together and getting it on theground.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about the
Agusa Trail, but there's acouple of other great trails
that we mentioned earlier thatwe're going to have a chance to
kind of dive into a little bitas well, with the Inca Heritage
Trail and the Monte DillsboroGreenway projects.
So I can't wait to dive intothat, and then I think we're
going to chat a little bit aboutthe Saluda Grade Trail as well,
some of the stages that that'sin and the people that you are
(08:42):
involved with.
But before we get there, joan,let's flip it back to you.
Let's find out a little bitmore kind of this professional
journey that you have been on toget you to the point where you
are such an advocate and anambassador for active
transportation and trails.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
So, like I said, what reallyinspired me and got me
interested in activetransportation and trails was
when I went to LSU.
I did not have a car, which alot of people thought I was
absolutely crazy, Because BatonRouge is a very car-dependent
city.
But I showed up.
I had no vehicle the entirefour years that I went to school
(09:19):
, and, you know, I started torealize once I moved off campus
how completely fragmented thecommunity was and that there
were job spatial mismatches forcommunity members, black and
brown communities in the Southand how it was
disproportionately affectingthem.
And so I myself, as a bikecommuter into school from about
(09:43):
six miles away, started to alsorealize that there were some
Vision Zero related issues thatwere happening.
At the time, Louisiana had thethird worst cyclist and
pedestrian deaths per capita inthe United States.
Now it's improved a little bit,it's not as bad, but it's still
pretty bad, and so I never havebeen someone in my career or
(10:04):
even when I was in school, tojust sit around and not do
something when there was aproblem, and so I created a
social advocacy organization forthe state of Louisiana called
Move Happy Louisiana, and it wasessentially to help educate
people about what is now coinedas Vision Zero zero.
So I was helping the city ofBaton Rouge and a couple of
other local jurisdictions, theuniversity, through the
(10:30):
transportation department,improve some of the existing
facilities, also put outinformation about surveys that
were happening that the publiccould answer questions to,
worked on some legislation atthe state level and really just
wanted to improve what washappening in the community.
I didn't know it at the statelevel and really just wanted to
improve what was happening inthe community.
I didn't know it at the timebut really what I was doing was
transportation planning.
(10:50):
And so then I went on to go tograd school and I really wanted
to learn, like I said, from thebest of the best that people
always talk about for activetransportation.
And so I went to Holland, gotmy grad degree there, came back
and yeah, just kind of beenmoving ever since in the active
(11:11):
transportation space, transit,rail trails, all of that type of
work I've been doing, like Isaid, for the last 10 years
almost and yeah, it's been greatchallenges along the way here
and there, but I like to keep itpositive.
For the most part I've had areally good run so far in my
career.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well, that's great, that's so cool.
So with this, the whole passionpiece started back in undergrad
and you saw an unmet need andyou were trying to address that
need and obviously you were abike commuter yourself, like you
said.
So this is really things thatyou are actively living out.
These aren't just an ethos ofthought.
This is like.
This is my life.
So it must have been a prettycool Eureka moment for you to
say, hey, I'm gonna go tograduate school in Europe
(11:52):
studying the things in thecontext of exactly what it is.
I'm passionate about Citiesthat you have, active
transportation and it's all overthe place.
That must have been a Eurekatype of moment for you.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Effective transportation and it's all over
the place.
That must have been a eurekatype of moment for you.
It really was, and you know Ihad such great support at LSU.
I love to shout out theiruniversity.
You know there are people likeEmma who go to Yale and Yale is
an amazing university, but LSUactually puts out more Truman
finalists, Albright scholars,than most Ivy League
institutions.
(12:24):
So I was a part of their honorscollege and they were fantastic
at providing support for me toget funding to go do these
amazing things and get grants orMove Happy Louisiana.
They really provided me withthe support that I needed to be
able to understand how I couldmake a change in the community
and then also affect thecommunities nationally, and so I
(12:49):
really, I really respect thepeople in the Honors College and
at the Mass CommunicationSchool.
I have a Mass Comm undergrad.
But, yeah, it's also interesting, I do.
I would be remiss withoutmentioning this, but like Emma,
I also was a runner.
You know, I got hit by a carright before I went to LSU and
(13:10):
it really kind of shocked me.
And now I look back at itbecause when you're 18, you know
, you don't know that likeyou're supposed to stop and like
even if someone runs away andthey they don't stay for the
accident, that this is an issue.
And now that I'm, you know,looking at crash reports all the
time for Vision Zero projects,there's so many different people
(13:31):
that are not documented forcrashes, and so I feel like the
passion kind of started wellbeyond just undergrad, because
I've always been someone that'sso active.
I really want to be able toexperience public space in a
different way.
I find that you know childrenthat are exposed to riding a
bike or walking on trails intheir communities with their
(13:54):
families.
They remember different littlethings about the community
before they even realize thatthey're experiencing this public
space in a way that's beforethey even realize that they're
experiencing this public spacein a way.
That's such a beautiful thing.
When we're in our cars, I findthat we're so fragmented into
this isolation, and so it's mygoal to reconnect our
(14:17):
communities in a way that peoplecan experience joy and
happiness.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love that.
I love that in so many ways andI have a sense of what you're
talking about.
I would say, probably withinthe last 30 days.
So it's that recent.
My daughter and I we rode inBrevard.
We rode from, essentially,pisgah Forest all the way into
downtown Brevard and one of thethings that she and I talked
(14:43):
about the entire time was, youknow, for as many years as we've
lived here and for as manytimes as we've driven these
roads, the greenways just showyou and these trails, they just
show you just an entirelydifferent part of the town that
you're not going to see whenyou're just sticking to the main
roads and you know going to thestore and doing all your
errands and you know just living, and so that's kind of what I
(15:05):
just took away from.
What you just said is that youknow that does allow you to
connect with the place that youlive, whether it's recreation or
transportation to get you knowto work or to run.
You know these errands orwhatever they may be, but it's
just a way to reconnect with or,excuse me, not reconnect but to
connect with our community.
That otherwise just isn'tpossible.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, and I feel like that's.
I know this is diverging alittle bit, but that's a really
good segue into another projectthat we're not going to talk
about too much.
I think JMT is actually workingon the 64 connections from
Pisgah Forest into the city ofBrevard and improving some of
those existing facilities withroundabouts, bike lanes and
improving that greenway thaty'all rode.
(15:44):
I'm actually working on thatproject right now, called NCDOT
Project R5800.
And we're getting closer andcloser to that project getting
wrapped up so that wholecorridor will actually be even
easier for you to like.
Public attitude shift aboutbike trails active mobility.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You know you can talk in terms of the acoustic if you
like, and I think you just kindof started to with 64.
But just like in general bigpicture, how are you seeing
public attitude shift about biketrails and active mobility?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I would say in the western part of the state,
speaking particularly to that,people really understand the
economic benefit of trails andwhat it brings to their
community.
I think that most countiesthroughout the western part of
North Carolina recognize howmuch trails bring to their
community beyond just theconnection and the sense of
(16:56):
place.
It gives them the ability tomarket what is there to
communities beyond just NorthCarolina.
People know our communities forthe trails.
That's why we're the GreatTrail State now.
And it's amazing to see all ofthe community members in the
(17:20):
western part of the state thatare working on trails like
Pizzeria, Zorba, like all thedifferent local governments
working with local nonprofits tomake sure that these trails are
world class world-class, Iwould put honestly.
(17:43):
I think by the time most ofthese projects are down on the
ground that we're going to talkabout today, I would put a lot
of these as comparison projectsto Bentonville.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I know Bentonville gets a lot of traction for what
they're doing, but they've gotfamily foundation funding, which
most communities don't haveaccess to.
That and the fact that thereare so many people rallying
together to go after grants andreconnect communities, not just
for transportation but forrecreation purposes, and
(18:10):
creating these places wherepeople feel like they can
connect with one another, that'sthe whole reason why we do what
we do, and I think that theattitude for trails in the
western part of North Carolinais very positive.
People understand what theybring.
Certainly, emma.
I would love for you to chimein as a local on this.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
I think the local perspective on my end would
definitely be that, growing up,western North Carolina just
feels like the most walkableplace.
It's not like an urban center,there's not a lot of access for
pedestrian bikes, so it's reallygreat to have all these trail
systems and these Greenwayprojects I feel like are really
connecting from the more naturalspaces to those city centers or
(18:53):
town centers and it's reallygreat to see just all the
positive impacts that's havingon the communities.
We're a very tourism driven area, I feel like, so it's really
awesome when the projects thatwe're doing not only support the
tourism but also the localcommunity and their health and
their happiness.
So I think that's the biggestpush I've seen with Greenways.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I love that and I think you hit the nail on the
head too there.
You know there are so manypeople that Joan and I were
talking last week or the weekbefore and we were so close to
the Acousta Trail and I knowthat it's not officially open,
but myself as well as you know,dozens of other people are out
there as well enjoying thistrail, but y'all, I am seeing
people like, like.
(19:36):
I'm seeing bikes that are beingbrought out that haven't
probably been ridden in a verylong time Kids bikes, I mean
just people walking.
The thing is, I was in a localstore recently it's called Next
Venture, actually in Brevard,and this, this gentleman was
telling me that people are justbringing their bikes out of the
(19:57):
woodworks to all these bikeshops now, trying to get them up
and running in anticipation ofthese trails being completed,
which is exactly kind of whatyou're saying, emmett.
So we haven't had these in thepast and so now you have all
these beautiful trails, or youknow miles and hundreds of miles
of trails out in the woods, butthese local greenways, this is
kind of a somewhat of a newthing for us and I think people
(20:18):
like the buzz.
I can tell you the buzz inHendo, hendersonville is big,
and it doesn't matter where yougo and what walk of life and it
doesn't matter the age.
People are incredibly stokedabout what's coming pretty soon.
Well, let's kind of dive in andtalk a little bit more about the
Acoustic Trail, because it's socool.
Emma, you said when you were inhigh school, you saw, you know,
(20:45):
you heard about this projectcoming to fruition.
And now here we are and you'reinvolved in it.
So it's been a long time comingno doubt about it and
Conserving Carolina, the Friendsof the Acousta Trail.
There's a lot of greatresources and we'll link those
for people to find out moreabout it.
But let's just kind of talkabout the sort of an overview of
the trail.
It has a really great historyand what are some of the things
that really kind of make thisnew up and coming trail special
(21:06):
y'all.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
The Acosta Trail is a 20 mile rail trail was a way to
connect the community via rail,and so that was a way for all
of these little smaller localcommunities in between
Hendersonville and Brevard toconnect to one another.
And then, over time, of course,rail is no longer there, but
(21:38):
they've got this resource.
And so, as you indicated, mike,conserving Carolina purchased
the railroad right-of-way andthere's also been some
additional funding for us to dodesign and planning that NCDOT
and all the differentcommunities partnered together
on a couple of years ago,together on a couple of years
(21:59):
ago, and that's kind of theimpetus for why this project is
now starting and close tofinishing, at least on one of
the portions.
So, jmt, we are involved in allthree sections of the Acusta
Trail.
I know I mentioned this earlierand you did as well, but there
is a section closest to theTransylvania section of where it
connects to Brevard, where wehave a great team partner that
(22:21):
we love and respect so much,nick Adams, and they're working
on the design side on that.
But all sections we've doneplanning and then Emma's working
on the Hendersonville sectionthat's currently underway for
design beyond the section thatis getting completed close to
y'all.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So Emma maybe share a little bit more about that
other section.
Is this the section from likethere in 64 in Horseshoe, kind
of like near Cognitive Brewhouseand Packers Place, and then
kind of going north?
Is that the kind of the nextsection that you're working on
planning, Emma?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Yeah, that's the one that I'm currently designing.
It kind of goes through Etowahthere and I actually was lucky
enough that when I first startedout the section that is already
paved right now that Mike andPam have already been riding on
through there I got to actuallyhelp with some of the kind of
tying of blue streams rightbefore it got put out to bid,
(23:20):
got to work on the permanentdrawings for that and help with
final design with our leaddesigner, alex Fitzpatrick, who
did that first section inHendersonville.
And so a year after that, whenwe completed that, I felt really
excited that JMT.
Let me start on the secondsection of the Acosta Trail as
my first lead for designengineering.
(23:42):
So so far it's been pretty great.
We got the 30% plan submittedjust before the hurricane.
So when Hurricane Colleen hitthat was definitely a setback on
design we had to go back out,collect the survey to make sure
that the alignment that we wereworking with still looks the
same post-storm.
(24:02):
So just in the last few weekswe've finally gotten an updated
survey back.
So we are chugging ahead onthis section of the trail and
hoping to get it put in the sameshape that our first section
was opening up in June.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
That's great.
Can you share a timeline Likeis there one for that next
section that you're working on,emma?
Or maybe even kind of definingor talking about the timeline
kind of helps us define all thatgoes into these trails, from
permitting to studies, to allthe submittals, everything you
all have to do.
I wonder if you can speak atall to any, and we won't.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
obviously we're not going to hold you any tight
timelines on this, but, yeah, Iguess I can kind of speak to
that a little bit, because Iunderstand what the initial goal
was for the final two sectionsthat are currently in design
since Emma's not working toomuch on the Brevard section but
the goal was that we wouldessentially go to construction
(25:03):
at the same time for bothsections, and there's a couple
of kind of things that we'reworking on on the fly as we
speak that are affecting some ofthe different changes for this
trail, particularly in theBrevard section.
Keep in mind that when we'rethinking about creating public
space and you've got a 20-milesection of a rail, trail how are
(25:26):
people going to get to thatrail trail?
Is there a way for them toconnect midway?
Is there a way that they canget access to other additional
amenities beyond that?
And so that's kind of what'shappening.
On that third section, closerto Brevard, they've just
realized, I think, over timethat there might be some
additional locations that theymight need to include as a part
(25:46):
of the study and the survey, andso we were working on some
additional things as a part ofdesign for that section.
That I don't think was initiallyanticipated, and so we're not
sure yet if the Hendersonsection that Emma's working on
right now might end up gettingcompleted before that Brevard
(26:07):
section.
But I think the goal is thatboth of the final two sections
will be done at the same time.
As for specific dates, Iprobably can't speak directly to
those quite yet just because ofwhat's happening with the other
section, but everybody'sworking on it and I know it's a
big priority to get it toconstruction.
Especially with the fundingrequirements that they have for
(26:30):
the grant, they have to get itdone within a specific time
frame, so it should be done, inmy best estimate, in the next
couple of years once it'sfinally constructed.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, so, yeah, so it's not a straight path,
obviously.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
One thing that you know, I think was one of the
biggest challenges of thisproject that we faced.
We were very close on designfor both of the sections at the
same time as Colleen hitting ondesign for both of the sections.
At the same time as Colleenhitting, and as Emma kind of
indicated, they had to go outand re-survey the existing
(27:04):
conditions of the site becauseit had changed so much and I
think that that certainly hasaffected this project and the
dates exponentially.
When site conditions change,they may have to deviate from
the existing right-of-way.
What does that mean?
Like is there something else?
(27:25):
Like, if we're going back, likeare there other things that we
need to reconsider to make thisa really good amenity?
And I think that that's kind ofwhat is happening right now,
but I think it's all good things.
It's sounding like, overall,this is a win, that we're kind
of going back, even though youknow, it may not seem like that.
Of course, Halloween is not fun.
(27:47):
And I don't wish what happenedto the communities in the
western part of the state toanyone, especially when it
delays projects like this thatreally would connect communities
.
But I do think that there aresome changes that are coming as
a result of that that are goingto make it a better facility in
the long run.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
What do you hope that this does, this Acousta Trail
and this is probably a I knowit's a big, broad question what
do you all hope to do or hopethat this trail is going to
accomplish once it's finally upand running 20 mile stretch,
hendo to Brevard?
What are some of your hopes forthis trail and what it does for
(28:29):
the community?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I think that this project has been in fruition for
so long that the communitygoing to be so much excitement
and happiness when all 20 milesare completed, there's going to
be people.
I'm sure that will turn it intosome sort of challenge to bike
all the way from one end to theother, and I think that's really
great.
But I think ultimately it'sgoing to provide this space for
(28:52):
locals to connect with eachother, with the environment that
we're so lucky to be a part of,and the economic impact.
You've already seen it with allthe bikes you were telling us
about, mike.
The bike shops are exploding,people are coming in and out and
everything.
People are just excited for it.
I think having spaces wherepeople can connect with nature,
(29:14):
connect with their communities,that's going to be the biggest
thing.
With the Acosta Trail comingout, because it's already such a
beautiful area, people arealready biking on just the
gravel left over from therailroad.
So just having a safer spacewhere people can bring their
kids, their grandparents andjust the whole community,
generationally can connect aswell, it'll be a lot safer too.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That's so cool.
As you're talking, Emma, I'mlike little images are popping
in my brain of the three timesthat I've ridden it, of all the
population groups that you'retalking about.
So it's just, it's more thantheory, it's like it's real and
it's definitely, it's definitelyhappening.
I would love to ask you allabout the parking.
Joan, we talked about this alittle bit before, so I know
(30:00):
like parking is going to beavailable at the.
I can see the big you knowlarge parking lot right near
downtown Hendersonville, butwhen you start to head north, do
you have an idea of where theseother parking places or trail
heads or access points might be?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
One of the connections that will be a
bigger hub on the other end inBrevard will be at the Oscar
Blues Brewing where the existingtrail for Brevard Greenway
connects.
So Brevard Greenway willactually be an extension of
Acosta to connect into the cityof Brevard, so that will be a
bigger hub.
Certainly, people can alsoconnect with the city of Brevard
(30:50):
through that 64 corridor that Iwas talking about and park at
some of the locations near there, and then Pisgah Forest will
have some additionalopportunities as well through
the 64 corridor.
As for that other site in themiddle, they're still evaluating
it so I probably can't sharetoo much on that yet, but
there's going to likely beanother location, um, somewhere
(31:14):
kind of like a midpoint of thetrail.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
So yeah, I'm also right in saying that there is
other parking areas kind of justalong, like small, not full on
parking lots, but there aregoing to be like little
waypoints along the way, like ifyou're just parking a couple
cars, sort of thing, throughoutthe trail system for all 20
miles.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Well, the Acousta is getting all the noise right now
because it's on the ground, butthere's a whole lot more that's
going on in this area.
Just geographically speaking,we sort of jumped to the west a
little bit and there's a coupleof projects and I'd love for you
to share whatever level you can.
I don't know what kind of anondisclosure agreement or
anything else that you havegoing on, but anything you can
share I would love to shareabout the Inca Heritage Trail
(31:56):
and the Monte Dillsboro.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I'm all ears, and I know our listeners are too.
So Inca Heritage Trail is atrail that's essentially going
to connect along Hominy Creeknear the Bob Lewis Ballpark
upper field and the BuncombeCounty Sports Parks.
So they're trying to reconnectsome of those different
resources together.
So it's also kind of referredto as Inca Heritage Trail and
Harmony Creek Greenway there'slike two different names, okay,
(32:24):
but we're working on thatproject.
There's been some delays inthat one.
You know.
The goal is that there's goingto be some other like smaller
amenities along there for peopleto connect into some of the
existing facilities also in Inca, which will be great, because
there's just some otherrecreational resources in that
area that need to be connected.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Okay, and then you have the Monteith-Dillsboro
Greenway Projects.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
The Monteith and Dillsboro Project is a complete
street project in a greenwayextension from the Appalachian
Women's Museum.
So that museum is a NationalRegister property.
It's a historic site.
And so the goal is that therewas a old bridge near Scotts
(33:09):
Creek that connected a road overthere, but they're going to
turn it into kind of like ashared street concept and there
will be like a prefab,prefabricated pedestrian bridge,
multi-use path bridge that'llgo in lieu of that existing
railroad connection that thereused to be to connect the
communities of Hillsborough andSilva together.
(33:32):
So it'll be really cool to seewhat that ends up looking like.
We're pretty early on in thedesign stages for that project
and certainly when you have thecommunity facilities at Monteith
, farmstead and Community Park,we have to be very particular
about how we're affectingNational Register properties and
their sites, and so thatproject will probably take a
(33:53):
little bit longer to get on theground because of that.
But we're working on that againwith our teaming partner
McAdams.
Again, love to shout them out,but they're doing some awesome
work too and it'll be reallycool to see what ends up that
project.
I think especially becausethere was that existing
connection near the Heraldsupermarket and yeah, it's going
(34:14):
to be very, very helpful forcommunities to get access to
that recreational resource aswell.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Oh man, I just absolutely love that.
Yeah, and two just wonderfullittle communities to kind of
hang out and tour around inDillsboro and Silva.
I mean they're just phenomenallittle towns and it kind of
reminds me of something thatEmma was saying earlier too,
just about how these greenwaysare really connecting.
They're like connection pointsfor a lot of these different
(34:41):
communities, so they're not justkind of in a silo and you don't
just have to get in your carand, you know, go drive to each
of these little areas to be ableto go from you know hanging out
and having a cold beer atInnovation Brewery and be able
to get on your bike and ridenorth into Silva and explore it.
Just it opens up so much moreopportunity for people, I think.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I think you're right, Mike.
I would say that I'm reallyexcited for this one.
Joan was telling me about itearlier today, and our office is
right across from HaroldSupermarket so I think I'm going
to really enjoy once this onegets on the ground, so enjoy the
connections between Dillsboroand Silva.
I could walk to lunch or biketo lunch if I wanted to on my
breaks in the office.
So definitely looking forwardto that community connection.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, speaking of another little town and another
project, and I know this is notone that you all are actively or
excuse me, you're not likerunning point on this project,
but you mentioned the McAdamsGroup and the Saluda Gray Trail,
so that's, you're kind ofpartnering in some ways with
them on that.
I love to hear you know.
Whatever you know you know,spill the beans on this one.
I want to know a little bitmore about Saluda Grade.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I don't know too much about Saluda, but I know that
they're working on it.
It's been a baby for them.
I've heard that it's going tobe an awesome trail.
Highly recommend having anotherpodcast episode with them as a
follow-up on this.
Teresa is a great resource andChristy Stout as well.
(36:03):
But, yeah, they're doing thegroundwork on that one and I'm
very excited about what FLUDAwill bring in conjunction with
all these other projects that wehave in the western part of the
state, because, like theselittle connectors, like they
provide great resources to thelocal communities but then they
also connect some of thedifferent regional resources
together so that it makeswestern North Carolina what we
(36:26):
call the Great Trails State andthe Great Trails region.
I think of North Carolina, Iknow certainly there are eastern
Carolina trails that are greatthat we're working on, like in
Corolla, but I think that thisone is going to be a big one,
same with Acousta, and thelittle ones that connect in
between are also just asimpactful and serve those
(36:47):
localized communities anddifferent needs and concerns
that they have.
So I'm excited to see how Saludaand Acousta together end up
transforming some of our smallertowns surrounding them and the
local communities, because Ihave a feeling that so many of
them are going to end upbenefiting exponentially more.
(37:07):
Like I said, I just I really Ikeep on honing in on it, but
like it's a big benefit to thecommunity when we have these
connections, and I think Saludaand Acosta are probably like the
big, you know, flashy ones, butlike the smaller ones, to
probably provide just as much ofthat back in revenue to these
(37:29):
communities.
There's so many more likeshovel-ready projects, just like
this, which is why we startedto create the Great State Trails
Coalition, so that legislatorsin the state of North Carolina
could really understand theimpact that they provide to
communities.
95% of the time when I'mworking on a bike pet plan or
(37:51):
I'm working on a land use plan,the number one thing that people
really want to know is how canI walk there?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
How can I?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
bike there.
How can I get there withouthaving my car?
And unfortunately this goesinto a much bigger thing.
I like to talk about a lot.
The state of North Carolina has80% of its road right-of-way
being owned by the state and wedo not fund bicycle and
pedestrian projects as a part ofthe state transportation
(38:23):
improvement plan.
It's a big soapbox thing for me.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, keep going, I'm listening.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Removing the limitation is imperative for the
funding limitation so that wecan actually create better
investments that connect alldifferent types of community
members, and so my goal is thatthe legislature will eventually
repeal that.
But it is amazing that the GreatState Trails Coalition has
(38:51):
actually created so much outcryfrom community members like in
the western part of NorthCarolina and in these
communities where tourism islike a big factor for them, to
get standalone funding fortrails and greenways.
That was not a thing beforehand.
When I think about bicycle andpedestrian projects, it is
(39:12):
multi-use paths, but certainlysidewalk infrastructure is more
a part of that conversation, aswell as bike lanes.
But it is something that isamazing that Great Seas Trails
Coalition has been able to dowithin the last three years of
them really really doing thework about why this is an
important need, because thesedifferent amenities truly
(39:33):
transform rural communities,local economies.
They make the places better fortheir local focus, while it's
not just like for tourism.
There's many people that areaging in place in the western
(39:53):
parts of the state that needaccess to amenities for their
health and they can't drive.
Disabled populations or elderlyare not able to drive, most
likely to not so being able toprovide these different things
to them is also important too.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
The justification is obviously there and it sounds
like the momentum in the lastdecade or so has definitely been
picking up much more work to do, but with people like yourself
and Palmer McIntyre and othersyou know across the state doing
the work that they're doing.
That's.
I think that's, that's huge,which I think is kind of a
little segue into the womenleading in transportation piece,
(40:30):
where I'd love to kind of talkabout that a little bit more,
because I watch your socialmedia for women moving people
and I see all the things you'redoing.
You've already said that you'rea commuter yourself, but you're
experiencing I don't know whatyou call it, not a renaissance
in the eastern part of the state, but there's so much work,
(40:50):
there's so much buzz aroundthese trails and around the
biking and the communities andeverything that you're involved
with in the eastern part of thestate, and I'd love to kind of
hear a little bit more justabout the Women Moving People
piece too.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I created the concept after I started to experience
in a professional setting, majorchallenges and setbacks and I
realized as I was going throughit that I was using writing as
an outlet to talk about some ofmy frustrations and then,
through that whole process,started to realize, as I talked
(41:26):
to other women, that this is ahuge challenge.
Working in the architecture,engineering and construction
space as a woman can be anuphill battle for a lot of
people and it's unfortunate thatit is that way, but it is the
case for a lot of women.
And so I again, like I saidearlier, never want to be
someone to just sit around andact like things aren't a problem
(41:48):
, not talk about them.
So that is why I created this,why I post about it all the time
.
And you know, it's not justabout, like, the professional
setting.
It's about how I think abouttransportation, design, planning
, public space, how I experiencepublic space, or some other
(42:10):
woman experience public space,because we are not, we're not
the same.
Like Emma might have a verydifferent experience than I
would because she grew up inCherokee.
Like I don't.
I don't know her space.
But also it's like, why aren'twe talking about this?
Like when we're in such amale-dominated industry.
Women want to make theseawesome things happen.
Like you said, mike PalmerMcIntyre and Iona Thomas have
(42:37):
done amazing things with theGreat State Trails Coalition and
what they've been able to build.
Those are both women that areleading this effort in North
Carolina.
I'd love to talk about JulieWhite.
Julie White is the DeputySecretary of NC DOT.
She is doing amazing things tohelp get things like the
Raleigh-Richmond line off theground, making sure that the
(42:58):
integrated mobility division aredoing these amazing things.
That's a Gallup.
She's the third NTDOT divisionengineer in the state of North
Carolina.
It is a woman.
These are all things thatthey've had to fight for, and
when you have to fight for stufflike that, it sucks, because
(43:18):
sometimes it is an uphill battleand you have to keep on having
conversations with people.
You have to.
You have to set yourself up tosay I am the expert in this, why
?
And sometimes people may noteven listen to you when you say
that.
You know we spent all this timetalking about all the amazing
things that Emma and I know thatI could tell you that there are
probably some people that wouldbe like I don't know about
(43:40):
these girls, man.
They seem like they may notknow what they're doing, but we
do and that's why representationreally does matter in the
planning and infrastructure anddesign space, because we think
about it differently and we putin the impetus to put in the
legwork to make these thingshappen.
(44:00):
And so I am looking to sharethose stories and talk more
about them as a part of the bookand on my socials.
So that's a little bit aboutthe impetus of that.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I love that and I know it's a name that you know,
if you know Palmer McIntyre.
But the other one that comes tomind for me is Beth Heil.
She is now the executivedirector of the Burke River
Trail Association but theFonteflores State Trail.
She was really instrumental inmaking all of that come to life,
and I know that in all of theseprojects that there are a team
(44:35):
of people that work.
But there is always that personwho's the champion and who
really sort of says you know,like you, I'm not just going to
sit by, I hope somebody elsedoes this, I'm going to step up
and do it.
And beth was very much that wayin burke county as well.
So she is a definitely somebodyto add to your list into your
book of of a woman of influence.
For sure.
She's the fire behind a lot ofstuff that happens in burke,
(44:57):
Fonteflora and other stuff aswell.
So she's a wonderful humanbeing.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Love it.
Yeah, see, now you know why Iwait a little bit, everyone.
I want to make sure that I getall the stories right, you know.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
There you go.
That's great, all right, sobefore we sign off, we're going
to go through a lightning round.
I am very interested to knowthese questions.
They're all about trails andthey're all about some of
y'all's favorites.
So we'll just kind of go rapidfire.
Joan, I'll go with you First onthis one, and then, emma, you
can go after Joan, the favoritetrail You've ridden or walked.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I have to say, because it's Such a long trail,
the East Coast Greenway, such acool trail that connects all the
way from the top of the EastCoast in Maine all the way down
to Florida.
I've not done the whole trail,but the sections near where I
live are amazing and East CoastGreenway does amazing work, so
(45:57):
got to shout them out.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Awesome.
That's on my bucket list too,by the way, emma.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
My favorite trail is definitely Lonesome Pine in
Brighton City.
It's kind of in the Deep CreekTrail system in the National
Park and it was a bit of atorture to bike in high school.
Our final summer training wasto go up that mountain, but the
view is remarkable at the topand totally worth it.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
So that's my favorite .
Awesome, awesome, all right,and Emma, we'll go with you
first on this one, your dreamtrail trip, like anywhere in the
world.
What's your dream trail trip?
Speaker 3 (46:38):
I think I'm definitely a homebody, but a
different.
A dream of mine is to hike thewhole appalachian trail.
Um, so that's, that's minethat's a good one.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
That's a good one.
How about you, joan?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
I really love the colorado trail.
Um, I've hiked some sectionsbut I've not done the full
section.
That's where I'm fromoriginally, um, but then I also
have been very interested indoing the mst the mountains to
sea trail.
I've hiked some sections butI've not done the full section
where I'm from originally.
But then I also have been veryinterested in doing the MST, the
Mountains to Sea Trail, thewhole way from the coast of
North Carolina, all the way tothe west, nice.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Very good, all right.
Next question has a little bitof a Palmer McIntyre kind of
vibe to it, because she justwrote her book about trails and
places to eat.
So this one's going to be ashout-out to Palmer.
She's the inspiration.
What is your favorite coffeeshop or local place near a trail
that you love?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Mine is Monkton, mongoose, which is not actually
in North Carolina.
This is in Colorado, where Iused to live, but there are
these really amazing bluffs thatare outside of the Lone Tree
Colorado area, and I used tolive in the same building as
Monk and Mongoose.
That's why mixed usedevelopment is amazing.
(47:49):
So I would go hike or run everymorning when I lived in this
area and then every morning whenI get done I would go to my
local coffee shop in my buildingafter I'd be on these amazing
bluffs.
Yeah, I love Monk and Mongoose.
I had my little bridal showerthere, so I'll shout them out
Nice, nice.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Nice, I love it.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
I love the stories behind them too.
That's cool.
All right, Emma, your turn.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Yeah, my favorite coffee shop is we call it Coffee
with a K, but it's just Coffeequestion mark, and it was a part
of Just off of the New HavenGreenway trails, Somewhere I
went to school, so that'sprobably my favorite.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Very nice, alright, and our listeners Probably could
already gather this nextquestion From all that you all
have already shared.
But, joan, we'll go to youfirst on this one question from
all that you all have alreadyshared.
But, joan, we'll go to youfirst on this one.
And then, emma, to you.
Words you live by when it comesto community building.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
I would say I share kindness and understanding and
recognize that everybody hasdifferent needs and concerns,
that they need to be addressedin their community, and so being
able to hear people out andrecognize what those concerns
are and do it in a loving way ismy sense of community building.
(49:06):
I want to make sure that nobodyis really left behind in the
process, and that's why I'm aplanner.
I want to make sure that allthose different concerns are
outlined as a part of a project,and that's what I live by for
community building.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Good answer.
All right, Emma, I'm dying tohear yours.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
I think my biggest thing with community building
especially as I've watchedWestern North Carolina grow
through my lifetime is likereally having a balance between
the local population and anysort of economic goals we have
with tourism and I think Joantouched on it very well for
kindness and caring for thedifferences that different
(49:46):
communities have.
So that's like a big thing forme, just making sure we strike a
good balance and supporting thepeople that live here and the
people that want to come andvisit here and enjoy it for what
it is.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Well, listen y'all, I can't thank you enough.
I know that we said it a momentago that we could probably go
deep in a lot of these thingsand talk.
You know there's probably fouror five more episodes out of
this one, but thank you all somuch for taking the time out of
your day.
Number one, but number two, andprobably most importantly,
thank you for all the work thatyou all are doing in this space,
because you all are both notonly advocates and ambassadors,
(50:19):
but it's truly a passion, and itcomes through in this
conversation.
It comes through in pastconversations, Joan, that we've
had.
So I really can't thank you allenough for everything that
you're doing to make thesetrails and make these things
important and accessible toeveryone.
And as somebody who lives inthis particular community, where
you all are directlyresponsible for building some of
(50:40):
these trails, I honestly cannotthank you enough.
And I know, on behalf of allthe people that live in this
region too, I know I would bespeaking for them too when I say
thank you.
So it's been a joy to have youon.
I can't wait to kind of stay intouch and see the other things
that you all are involved withand working through.
But again, just thank you somuch for taking the time to come
on the show and spread someknowledge.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Of course.
Well, thank you for inviting us.
We love talking about the workthat we do, and it's great to
share best practices and how we,as women, work on in the trail
space, so we greatly appreciateit.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
We really appreciate you, Mike.
It's been a treat today.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
As we heard today, the Acoosta Trail, the Inca
Heritage Trail and otherprojects like them are more than
just pathways through the woods.
They're pathways to connection,to accessibility and to a
stronger sense of place.
These trails are still beingbuilt, but the groundwork is
already transforming the waycommunities plan for the future.
Local economies are preparingfor new foot traffic, families
are looking forward to safer,more scenic ways to get outside,
(51:40):
and towns across western NorthCarolina are embracing the idea
that trails can be bothrecreational and revolutionary.
All of this is part ofsomething bigger.
North Carolina is the GreatTrail State, and that title is
more than a slogan.
It's a shared commitment tobuilding a trail network that
unites people across geography,generations and backgrounds.
(52:00):
The work is ongoing and it'spowered by people like Joan,
emma and countless others whobelieve in the role of trails to
strengthen communities from theground up.
Thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, leave us a review
and don't forget to subscribe soyou don't miss the next episode
.
You can follow me on Instagramand Facebook and drop me a note
(52:21):
at mike at explorationlocalcom,if you ever have ideas for
future episodes or you just wantto say hello.
That's going to do it for thisepisode.
As always, I encourage you towander far, but explore local.
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