July 12, 2025 • 24 mins
Fascinating conversation with Birgit Hermann, a German / New Zealander who has lived in Timor-Leste for a decade. She is a free diver and mountain biker who has worked extensively on marine protection and education.
Her website - www.birgithermann.com
Website - www.exploringtimor.com
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@exploringtimor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Birgit (00:00):
It is one of those places where you can really
discover someone with a bit ofan adventurous mindset and
someone who would like to figureout things themselves, this is.
The absolute paradise for this.
There's not so many places andcountries left in the world
where it's not all presented toyou on a golden plate.
(00:20):
But if you actually make theeffort of coming here, it's so
rewarding and it's reallyauthentic.
Jonty (00:32):
Bondi.
Welcome to exploring Tim Este,the podcast that talks about
Southeast Asia's best kepttravel secret.
I'm your host Jte, and I'llshare firsthand insights, expert
interviews and practical traveltips.
Whether you're a traveler, acultural lover, or just curious
about places rarely covered inthe mainstream.
You're in the right place.
Let's explore two more.
Less day.
(00:57):
today it's my pleasure to bejoined by Birgit Herman, who is
a longtime resident of Dili andTimor Este.
First of all, what brought youto Timor Este?
Birgit (01:06):
Hi Johny.
It's starting to sound a bitscary, but actually I arrived
almost 10 years ago.
So in December this year will bemy 10 year anniversary of
Touching Ground, and initially Icame here as a one year
volunteer with the New ZealandVSA program.
Jonty (01:20):
And what are you doing now?
Birgit (01:21):
I have been working in the wider development sector
over the last 10 years andalways in a community based.
Support role.
I've been very involved inmarine conservation, climate
adaptation work making sure thatthe small scale fishing
continues to be possible forgenerations to come.
Like making it reallysustainable and helping on all
(01:42):
levels.
So I had the feeling after somany years of working here in a
role where I was in themanagerial role that it's
actually more time to ensurethat I'm passing on all this
leadership knowledge to othersto come.
So the last two years I've beenmore focusing on leadership
development, coaching,mentoring.
Sometimes if there is a needstepping in short term for
(02:03):
organizations, helping them gothrough a transition, a crisis
or change management.
But yeah, so I'm a bit involvedin a lot of little projects and
have a huge passion for theocean and support some youth
groups in the ocean conservationwork.
Jonty (02:17):
Wonderful.
And you live in dhi, but you didstart life living on Roo Island,
is that correct?
Birgit (02:22):
Exactly, yeah.
I think the reason I'm stillhere is because my initial stint
in Timor Less started on at TogoIsland, back in 2015, 2016, when
I came, it was very difficult toreach.
There were not many boats going,there's still not that many
boats going, but at that stageit was even more complicated and
(02:43):
it was just such a.
Different experience for me towhere I came from and being in
this quite tough environment,like really cut off from my
normal social circle, soconveniences I think, yeah, it
was a very rough start, but alsoa really intense, immersive,
beautiful start.
(03:04):
The last years I've always beenliving in dili and sometimes you
forget actually that the ruralteamwork is really why I am
here.
So it's really nice to get backto those where it started, the
initial ideas rather than theday-to-day.
Parts of Delhi, which is a bigcity by Timo.
It's relative.
Jonty (03:19):
It's a relative term.
Yes.
Birgit (03:20):
It's the biggest city we have in the country, so that's
why it's a big city.
But the day-to-day situation inDelhi you drive around with a
scooter and get even in ascooter stuck in traffic.
And there is.
Obviously like air pollution andproblems with the rubbish and
the plastic and the roadwork andall of those things.
And it's quite good to take amoment sometimes to go back to
(03:41):
the origins and actually thereason I'm here is not because
of the day-to-day living in dhi.
it's more because of thebeautiful parts in the rural
areas of Timor-Leste.
Jonty (03:51):
So how would you describe Timor Lette to somebody who's
never been.
Birgit (03:54):
It is one of those places where you can really
discover someone with a bit ofan adventurous mindset and
someone who would like to figureout things themselves, this is.
The absolute paradise for this.
There's not so many places andcountries left in the world
where it's not all presented toyou on a golden plate.
(04:15):
But if you actually make theeffort of coming here, it's so
rewarding and it's reallyauthentic.
But yeah if someone is on thelookout for an easy.
Retreat, relaxing.
Everything is just at yourfingertips.
This is not the place where youwant to go, but if you want to
nurture your adventurous soul,that's the place.
Jonty (04:36):
And as you say, it's good 'cause there's actually
increasingly few places you cando that.
There's so many parts of theworld now where they've all got
the luxury resorts and you canhave that five star experience
that it's more special not beingable to have that.
And actually you still have areal adventure these days.
Birgit (04:50):
Exactly, and development is catching up here.
So you actually have a few ofthose, I wouldn't call'em five
star resorts, but you have nowactually a few places, hotels,
restaurants and so forth whereyou can put the AC on and just
cool down and take yourself abit away from the roughness that
is out there.
The moment you're leaving thecapital, there's so much to
(05:13):
discover if you have that openmindset.
Jonty (05:16):
So what are some of your favorite places in the country?
Birgit (05:18):
There's quite a few.
My big passion is the ocean.
I'm a free diver.
I love spending time next to theocean, in the ocean, above the
ocean.
So most of my weekend and weeklong retreats in the sense were
actually something oceanrelated.
And there at Toba Island, notjust because my journey started
there, but it's such a beautifulplace and it has two different
(05:42):
coasts.
One where all the boats arrivewhere it's.
A little bit easier to get toand it's easier to reach.
And even the coral reef is muchmore gentle.
You don't have to have any kindof deep free diving skills.
You can just go out there andsnorkel at the surface.
Versus on the other side, on thewest coast it's a little bit
more difficult to get to.
(06:03):
You might either have to hikethere or you take a boat around
the island for a good two hoursor one and a half hours there
you have those really traumaticwalls to either free dive or
scuba dive, yes some reallytraumatic landscapes underwater,
and we are so blessed.
We're in the middle of the coraltriangle and it's the most.
(06:24):
Biodiverse waters in the worldin this region around a few
years ago was a very interestingsurvey done.
At that time it was actuallyclassified as one of the most
biodiverse spots anywhere in theworld.
So it's just very special to dothat there.
And it's so easy to access onceyou're here.
You don't need to go out by boatvery far.
(06:44):
You can actually snorkel most ofthose places, but also around
the coast you have a lot ofthings to do.
But then.
On the other hand, inland, I'm amountain biker, so anyone who
has a mountain bike or a dirtbike, it's phenomenal.
There's endless opportunities ofgoing up and down mountains.
It's a very small country, butwe have in both like the
mainland, we have a 3000 metermountain in the middle and on
(07:06):
the, it has a thousand metermountain.
You have the beautifulcoastline, but you don't have to
put much effort into climbingbig hills there.
They're just next to the
Jonty (07:15):
coastline.
There's no shortage of hills inTimor Este.
So if you prefer for mountainbiking where would you recommend
that people go?
Biking in Timor.
Birgit (07:24):
There's now a Tim Maurice guy who's offering
mountain biking tours, andthat's really around moi area,
which is just below mount thehighest mountain.
And that's really nice.
'cause there's also the culturalaspect in that area.
So it's not just the mountainbiking.
He actually have the opportunityof getting rid of an insight
into how the.
The cultures and the mountainareas are,'cause they're
(07:45):
obviously a little bit different'cause the climate is quite
different at 2000 somethingmeters versus the coastal areas.
So around there it's quite easyto access by Timor standards.
Jonty (07:57):
Excellent.
In terms of the underwater sideof things, what are some of the
coolest things that you've seenon your free diving and your
snorkeling around Timor?
Birgit (08:03):
The big drawing card is of course the whale migration.
We are very lucky that we havethe southern whale migration
coming through, and they'rerelatively reliable between
October, November now withclimate change.
Some of the reliability is a bitchanging, but there's a good
kind of six weeks to eight weekswhere we see the blue whales,
(08:28):
they're called picnic plumewhales, because they're like
about three meters shorter thanthe his whale.
They be pretty big.
We're still, they're still thelargest animal on the planet.
And then we also get spermwhales and other whales passing
through in that season.
You could be lucky, you canactually just see them from the
coast.
You could be sitting in one ofthe ocean cafes around dili or
(08:48):
further along the coast aroundbau, and so you can actually see
them from the coast.
They're coming really close.
So even if you don't want to goin a boat, you may actually just
sit on an elevated spot andwould look out for them.
That is such a once in alifetime experience seeing
actually a whale in the water,but it's also.
Not guaranteed that you see onein the weight order.
It's much more reliable that yousee them from the end.
(09:10):
But in general, year long.
Like crossing the channel fromDili to at you.
You always have a very goodchance of seeing dolphins.
Really big pots of dolphins.
We have around at, there's aresident population of melan
headed whales, pilot whales.
So they're there year round.
So if you just spend a lot oftime in a boat going around you
(09:33):
will see those kind of things.
Other than that, we have quite afew in uh, curious ones in, in
uh, both on the mainland as wellas at, and it's really
fascinating.
So yeah, when I came they, theywere not as frequently spotted
and there was quite a bit ofwork protecting the sea grass
meadows, which is the.
(09:53):
Than the food, the nutrition forDugongs.
And it seems to have had aneffect, like there is actually
more regular sightings ofdugongs now, which is really
nice.
And if somebody doesn't knowwhat a
Jonty (10:04):
dugong is, how do you describe a dugong?
Birgit (10:06):
It's a sea cow in a sense.
Some people are more familiarwith manatees, which is, part of
that family, but they're havingsome similarities to manatees,
it's like a big sea cow and itjust eats all day.
A lot of sea grass, apparentlyup to 70 kilos.
The sea grass is really smallstuff like it's really like
(10:26):
grass.
Bigger than a Terra film Cow.
But they look really cute andthey're totally harmless to us.
They're just curious and it'squite shallow
Jonty (10:35):
waters, they live in, so you don't have to go necessarily
diving.
You could see them whilesnorkeling.
Birgit (10:39):
Yeah, just two weekends ago, I saw one, I filmed one for
three and a half minutes.
'cause this one was circling usfor a good four and a half
minutes and it was reallyshallow.
It was maybe going down fourmeters.
This one I saw in, in, at the,uh, the ER reef there.
But yeah, other one in Tacito,which is just next to the
airport.
It's a very accessible site.
(11:00):
And of course you have to belucky.
It's not that you can go thereand you hope it's still a big
bay.
But compared to places, anywhereelse in the world, if you are
going there a few times, chancesare you may actually be one of
the lucky ones.
What you guarantee to see is allthe colorful fish life and the
coral fish.
(11:20):
And the beauty around timor'swater is actually that the coral
fringe, so the extra coral isreally accessible.
You don't need a boat for that.
You can just swim out.
It's just next to the coast.
And that's where you see allthe.
Like the clownfish and thelittle beautiful other.
(11:41):
Fish in all types of colors.
Jonty (11:43):
Lots of nemos and Yeah.
Birgit (11:44):
Yeah, a lot of nemos, but of course also a lot of
Doris and other fish.
Jonty (11:49):
And I like the giant clam.
I was in Samoa a few months agoand it's a big thing.
That's the giant clam sanctuaryand it's all quite touristy, but
just off in the inner reef fromat, there's some incredible
giant clams, which just I wasn'texpecting.
Birgit (12:04):
Yeah, there are.
So in the last six to eightyears with the conservation work
that happened with the coastcommunities, there's more and
more places that are having it.
A localized ban, meaning you canstill enter as a tourist, you
just pay a small access fee oflike maybe$1$52.
And then there is restrictionsto fishing and it has really
(12:24):
paid off.
You can see in those places thattwo weeks ago when I spent that
time snorkeling around and I sawthe dugong, there was also
really big lobsters and it'sreally nice.
And here it hasn't compared tosome Southeast Asian countries.
There hasn't been so muchdynamite bombing.
'cause in some places people usedynamite to help with the
fishing, which is a verydestructive method.
(12:46):
Meaning it's not just that thefish life suffers from it, but
actually there's permanentdamage to the coral reef.
But it hasn't been that widelyused here, like very sparsely
meaning there's yeah, much morehealthy coral.
Jonty (13:00):
He understand that's quite a big push from the
government.
Was it last month there was aOceans Festival that I saw the
President and the Prime Ministerin Blue and won the matter
Trident Did you go to that?
Birgit (13:11):
Yeah.
I have to say it's, I'vereflecting a lot since I first
arrived here in late 2015 towhere we are now.
'cause in five years of my timeI worked.
Really specifically in, in oceanconservation, and it was even
difficult in the beginningfinding Timor staff would be
recruited'cause no one hadactually the knowledge but now
(13:31):
it's so nice.
They're the main, the publicuniversity, UNTL has in the last
years, their own degree programfor fisheries.
Ocean related work.
And then another university hasalso something in that area.
So there is actually a lot ofTimorese who are now much more
knowledgeable about it, and manymore programs started.
(13:53):
The youth groups in particularare very active.
Timor is a very young country,not just by how long it has been
independent, but also bypopulation the Timorese.
Youth, which is anyone up to 35years is very hungry for
information about best practiceand how you can actually
(14:14):
mobilize and change things.
And there so many initiativesfrom the simple, like beach and
ocean cleanups and getting ridof all the marine day to
actually more long termeducational activities in
schools some of them.
Very successful in gettingscholarships to go to
International Ocean conferencesand bring that knowledge back.
A group I'm supporting a lot iscalled Underwater Cinema, where
(14:36):
they bring people out,snorkeling and free diving to
really introduce people from a.
Very personal connection pointof view with the ocean.
The idea is if you see it withyour own eyes, you actually have
a connection.
You want to protect it.
'cause not that many people inTimor less know how to swim.
So it starts with the simpleidea of actually allowing people
to see it with in the safety ofa life jacket.
(14:57):
And once they.
Upgrade a bit than actuallydoing snorkeling and diving.
And it's really great with thecurrent government the Prime
Minister has his own workforceBlue Economy unit which started
a bit more than a year ago.
And every year in June whenthere's the International Ocean
Day, they used it as a platformto promote very heavily and
(15:18):
connect the ocean with themountain communities.
'cause there, used to be a bitof a disconnect, just people
don't travel much.
So people will live, work in themountains.
They don't really have anyconnection with the ocean.
But this blue economy unit hasdone a lot of public events
created a children's book andthe matter material to also
(15:39):
bring it to the mountaincommunities because anything
that's being put in the rivers,in the little creeks, in the
mountains, that then come to therivers, especially once the rain
season starts and there's a lotof water movement obviously all
of that ends up eventually inthe ocean.
So the, just to make it a bitclearer that something that be
is being thrown away in themountain.
(15:59):
Has actually a clear connectionto Ocean Life and.
It was a really great event.
It was a week long event ofdifferent activities and also
putting a few locally managedmarine areas in place around
that week.
But it was a big parade.
People dressed up in fancyoutfits and looking like octopus
and sharks.
From a government point of viewthere, there's definitely a
(16:21):
clear understanding.
There is alu economy, meaninglike the ocean and anything
that's relating to the ocean.
So the recommendation and theservice providers there's
actually, monetary aspect tothat side as well.
Not just an environmental one.
Jonty (16:36):
That's amazing to hear.
Things can be quite hard to doin Timor, but equally they can
make quite big changes quitequickly.
It's a, it's a relatively smallcountry.
The prime minister, thepresident get involved
personally in these activitiesand they can really make a big
difference.
Now if you have visitors who arecoming to Timor to enjoy the
underwater life, is thereanything you'd recommend that
they bring with them?
Birgit (16:55):
It's good to bring your own mask and snorkel and maybe
also fins at least a size of finthat fits in your suitcase.
Travel fins.
Yeah, travel fins.
I'm a free diver.
I like having long fins.
'cause then you can actuallykeep up with those animals that
you would like to hang out with.
Definitely bring your mask andbring your snorkel.
'cause there's very limitedsupply to buy and hire here.
(17:18):
And you don't wanna miss out.
You want to have something thatfits so that you can actually
enjoy anything rather thanhaving to deal with a leaking
mask.
Jonty (17:28):
Exactly, and there'll be lots of opportunities for
snorkeling and diving.
'cause as you said, after DrewIsland is probably the
epicenter.
But there is quite a lot alongthe northern coast of Timor.
Now being a long time Diliresident, is there anything
you'd recommend that visitorscheck out if they have a day or
two in Dili, when you havevisitors to come visit you,
where would you take them?
Birgit (17:46):
I think you haven't seen Dili properly.
If you haven't made an attemptto go to the crystal ray statue,
which is really marking theeastern side of the city.
So there's a stretch of beaches,some with little cafes and
restaurants.
And then just at the very end ofthe dili.
Outskirts.
You have a big Christie racestatue where you can climb up or
(18:08):
you can walk around if youcouldn't even hire bicycles now
and cycle around.
So it's quite complete.
I would highly.
Encourage you to go there and onboth sides of the Crystal Ray
statue is quite nice snorkeling.
So that's where you can put theMA to good use.
Jonty (18:22):
Excellent.
Are there any commonmisconceptions about Timor Less
day that you are aware of thatthis is an opportunity to clear
up?
Birgit (18:30):
People think it's unsafe and it has been a long time that
the country had some internalconflict.
It's like we are really talkingabout 2006, so I have never felt
unsafe in this country.
So the only thing is thatsometimes it's very difficult in
dili to move around at nighttimeto places, but it's not unsafe.
(18:51):
It's the difficulty of findingtransport if you don't have your
own one.
So it's more the inconveniencerather than it being unsafe.
Jonty (18:59):
And I get asked, but obviously I'm not in the best
position to comment on this ifyou've got female visitors to
Timor, should they have anyconcerns?
Birgit (19:08):
Of course it's a place that has also incidents where
anywhere in the world,unfortunately, there's incidents
that are specifically targetedat female.
So that happens here as well.
I think on the big scheme ofthings compared to other places
they're very infrequent.
So I think to start with I wouldjust more encourage people to
(19:30):
be, and that actually applies toboth men and female, to be a bit
more conservative in what youwear, honor the local dress
code.
'cause people are dressed veryconservatively, meaning you
don't see much skin and youdon't see very short skirts or
very short shorts.
If you are exercising, it's adifferent thing, like once
(19:50):
you're actually in movement.
But then if you are reallywalking around and sitting in a
cafe, or especially if you'reoutside dili in a rural area,
just out of respect So that's Ithink something that is just a
little bit also for your ownsafety.
You will always stick outbecause you are looking
different, but it just makes youstick out in a different way.
If you are a little bit.
Like you could go to a churchrather than look like you're
(20:12):
just going for a swim, even thatyou're in the middle of a city.
Jonty (20:15):
Do you have any kind of fun fats or interesting
observations about Timor life,which might be a, something a
bit different that people couldexpect to see, when they come
here?
Birgit (20:25):
I think the funny thing is still that it's the small
things.
It's not like one big thingthat's funny in a sense, but
it's what you get creed thewhole time.
People call you malai.
The moment you're not a team,Maurice.
You're malai and you're causinga lot.
Especially kids and you'recausing a lot of excitement if
you are driving through places.
(20:46):
And I remember when my parentswere here and we were going out
to some of the rural areas witha car.
Even there, there was a lot ofshouting, a lot of welcoming and
a lot of oh malai.
So it even happens if you're insomething like a fast moving
vehicle.
But then it's a funny andfriendly
Jonty (21:02):
one.
Birgit (21:03):
It's a very friendly, it's a
Jonty (21:04):
friendly thing though.
It's a very open, welcoming.
It's still more the noveltyfactor
Birgit (21:07):
And then the moment you stop maybe to buy something in a
small kiosk.
So you're getting a lot ofattention.
A lot of kids come and arecurious about you.
And then yeah, but then it'sit's I think I've, I come across
the same situation in otherplaces where for some reason
they always call you Mr.
I'm surrounded with othergirlfriends.
(21:27):
Like they always come as Mr.
Mister, so a few things that,just a bit cute.
Yeah, there's always a lot ofexcitement.
I think the excitement is thefun part about it.
Jonty (21:36):
So when you leave Tim Oreste to go on holiday or to go
home, what are the things thatyou miss?
Birgit (21:42):
It's a little chaotic here, and when you are here, you
always feel like you need abreak from it.
But then when you're actuallyoverseas, you're sometimes in
realizing how everything elseis, always is a system.
There's a process involved andit's just so inflexible.
Life's definitely
Jonty (21:58):
more boring.
It's exhausting, but then you goleaving you, that was so
exciting and just interestingand new stuff happening
Birgit (22:05):
And there's like here, it's always you just, if you
wanna make something happen, youcan make it happen.
And there is just not a processthat you can just replicate the
next time it works like this.
Again, that's not how it workshere.
It's always you.
You have to find your way andthen things change.
Products are not availableanymore.
A person who help you out, it'snow no longer living here and no
longer in this function.
And so suddenly the processchanged.
(22:26):
So I think.
That's the chaos part.
Everything always feels chaotic.
'cause it's not just that youcan establish something and then
you're, next time you're doingit.
Simple things like you go to asupermarket and you like a
certain type of cheese.
No.
Next time when you're there,this cheese is not available
anymore.
You have to wait for, I don'tknow how many weeks for this
cheese to be imported again.
(22:47):
So there's simple things likethis.
If you like something, just buyit immediately in bulk.
But then yeah, sometimes whenI'm actually back in places like
New Zealand or Germany, whichare my two anchor points it's a
bit overwhelming about all theoptions you have and there's
always a system in place thatyou need to know exactly from A
to B, every step of the process,and please don't come up with
being creative and innovative.
(23:08):
So versus in Timor, I think it'sthe place where you just.
You have to be innovative.
You have to be creative.
'cause otherwise you miss out.
Jonty (23:16):
Now is there anything that we've not touched on today
that you think listeners mightfind useful for planning their
trip to team or making the mostof their time here?
Birgit (23:24):
It really opens doors if you learn just a few words of
Teton.
And even me after having beenhere for 10 years, I wouldn't
call myself very fluent.
But the more you know, the moreyou understand'cause people are
actually naturally shy.
So if you make it easier toapproach people, you get so much
more back in return.
So I think that's, yeah, justmake the effort of learning a
(23:46):
few words, a few sentences andit will make everything so much
more meaningful.
Jonty (23:51):
And thankfully, it's a relatively straightforward
language.
You tend to pronounce words asthey're.
Written, so that does help.
There is obviously complexitiesto any language, but relative to
some other languages it's notChinese, It's a bit easier.
Birgit (24:05):
And if you know a few words of Portuguese, Spanish or
Indonesian p Hasa Indonesia,then you can figure out a few
things quite nicely.
Jonty (24:15):
Excellent.
Thank you so much for your time.
That's been a fascinatinginsight into life in Timor and
particularly the ocean side ofthings, which I think is a big
draw card for visitors.
So thank you so much for joiningme today on the podcast.
Birgit (24:27):
Much appreciated.
Looking forward to listening toit.
Jonty (24:30):
Thank you so much for listening to exploring Timor
Less Day.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please consider leaving
a rating or review.
It really helps more peoplediscover the show.
If you have any questions orfeedback, I'd love to hear from
you.
Drop me an email at exploringTimor lessDay@gmail.com.
Until next time, or Bodo ADEs.
It is one of those places where you can really
discover someone with a bit ofan adventurous mindset and
someone who would like to figureout things themselves, this is.
The absolute paradise for this.
There's not so many places andcountries left in the world
where it's not all presented toyou on a golden plate.
(00:20):
But if you actually make theeffort of coming here, it's so
rewarding and it's reallyauthentic.
Jonty (00:32):
Bondi.
Welcome to exploring Tim Este,the podcast that talks about
Southeast Asia's best kepttravel secret.
I'm your host Jte, and I'llshare firsthand insights, expert
interviews and practical traveltips.
Whether you're a traveler, acultural lover, or just curious
about places rarely covered inthe mainstream.
You're in the right place.
Let's explore two more.
Less day.
(00:57):
today it's my pleasure to bejoined by Birgit Herman, who is
a longtime resident of Dili andTimor Este.
First of all, what brought youto Timor Este?
Birgit (01:06):
Hi Johny.
It's starting to sound a bitscary, but actually I arrived
almost 10 years ago.
So in December this year will bemy 10 year anniversary of
Touching Ground, and initially Icame here as a one year
volunteer with the New ZealandVSA program.
Jonty (01:20):
And what are you doing now?
Birgit (01:21):
I have been working in the wider development sector
over the last 10 years andalways in a community based.
Support role.
I've been very involved inmarine conservation, climate
adaptation work making sure thatthe small scale fishing
continues to be possible forgenerations to come.
Like making it reallysustainable and helping on all
(01:42):
levels.
So I had the feeling after somany years of working here in a
role where I was in themanagerial role that it's
actually more time to ensurethat I'm passing on all this
leadership knowledge to othersto come.
So the last two years I've beenmore focusing on leadership
development, coaching,mentoring.
Sometimes if there is a needstepping in short term for
(02:03):
organizations, helping them gothrough a transition, a crisis
or change management.
But yeah, so I'm a bit involvedin a lot of little projects and
have a huge passion for theocean and support some youth
groups in the ocean conservationwork.
Jonty (02:17):
Wonderful.
And you live in dhi, but you didstart life living on Roo Island,
is that correct?
Birgit (02:22):
Exactly, yeah.
I think the reason I'm stillhere is because my initial stint
in Timor Less started on at TogoIsland, back in 2015, 2016, when
I came, it was very difficult toreach.
There were not many boats going,there's still not that many
boats going, but at that stageit was even more complicated and
(02:43):
it was just such a.
Different experience for me towhere I came from and being in
this quite tough environment,like really cut off from my
normal social circle, soconveniences I think, yeah, it
was a very rough start, but alsoa really intense, immersive,
beautiful start.
(03:04):
The last years I've always beenliving in dili and sometimes you
forget actually that the ruralteamwork is really why I am
here.
So it's really nice to get backto those where it started, the
initial ideas rather than theday-to-day.
Parts of Delhi, which is a bigcity by Timo.
It's relative.
Jonty (03:19):
It's a relative term.
Yes.
Birgit (03:20):
It's the biggest city we have in the country, so that's
why it's a big city.
But the day-to-day situation inDelhi you drive around with a
scooter and get even in ascooter stuck in traffic.
And there is.
Obviously like air pollution andproblems with the rubbish and
the plastic and the roadwork andall of those things.
And it's quite good to take amoment sometimes to go back to
(03:41):
the origins and actually thereason I'm here is not because
of the day-to-day living in dhi.
it's more because of thebeautiful parts in the rural
areas of Timor-Leste.
Jonty (03:51):
So how would you describe Timor Lette to somebody who's
never been.
Birgit (03:54):
It is one of those places where you can really
discover someone with a bit ofan adventurous mindset and
someone who would like to figureout things themselves, this is.
The absolute paradise for this.
There's not so many places andcountries left in the world
where it's not all presented toyou on a golden plate.
(04:15):
But if you actually make theeffort of coming here, it's so
rewarding and it's reallyauthentic.
But yeah if someone is on thelookout for an easy.
Retreat, relaxing.
Everything is just at yourfingertips.
This is not the place where youwant to go, but if you want to
nurture your adventurous soul,that's the place.
Jonty (04:36):
And as you say, it's good 'cause there's actually
increasingly few places you cando that.
There's so many parts of theworld now where they've all got
the luxury resorts and you canhave that five star experience
that it's more special not beingable to have that.
And actually you still have areal adventure these days.
Birgit (04:50):
Exactly, and development is catching up here.
So you actually have a few ofthose, I wouldn't call'em five
star resorts, but you have nowactually a few places, hotels,
restaurants and so forth whereyou can put the AC on and just
cool down and take yourself abit away from the roughness that
is out there.
The moment you're leaving thecapital, there's so much to
(05:13):
discover if you have that openmindset.
Jonty (05:16):
So what are some of your favorite places in the country?
Birgit (05:18):
There's quite a few.
My big passion is the ocean.
I'm a free diver.
I love spending time next to theocean, in the ocean, above the
ocean.
So most of my weekend and weeklong retreats in the sense were
actually something oceanrelated.
And there at Toba Island, notjust because my journey started
there, but it's such a beautifulplace and it has two different
(05:42):
coasts.
One where all the boats arrivewhere it's.
A little bit easier to get toand it's easier to reach.
And even the coral reef is muchmore gentle.
You don't have to have any kindof deep free diving skills.
You can just go out there andsnorkel at the surface.
Versus on the other side, on thewest coast it's a little bit
more difficult to get to.
(06:03):
You might either have to hikethere or you take a boat around
the island for a good two hoursor one and a half hours there
you have those really traumaticwalls to either free dive or
scuba dive, yes some reallytraumatic landscapes underwater,
and we are so blessed.
We're in the middle of the coraltriangle and it's the most.
(06:24):
Biodiverse waters in the worldin this region around a few
years ago was a very interestingsurvey done.
At that time it was actuallyclassified as one of the most
biodiverse spots anywhere in theworld.
So it's just very special to dothat there.
And it's so easy to access onceyou're here.
You don't need to go out by boatvery far.
(06:44):
You can actually snorkel most ofthose places, but also around
the coast you have a lot ofthings to do.
But then.
On the other hand, inland, I'm amountain biker, so anyone who
has a mountain bike or a dirtbike, it's phenomenal.
There's endless opportunities ofgoing up and down mountains.
It's a very small country, butwe have in both like the
mainland, we have a 3000 metermountain in the middle and on
(07:06):
the, it has a thousand metermountain.
You have the beautifulcoastline, but you don't have to
put much effort into climbingbig hills there.
They're just next to the
Jonty (07:15):
coastline.
There's no shortage of hills inTimor Este.
So if you prefer for mountainbiking where would you recommend
that people go?
Biking in Timor.
Birgit (07:24):
There's now a Tim Maurice guy who's offering
mountain biking tours, andthat's really around moi area,
which is just below mount thehighest mountain.
And that's really nice.
'cause there's also the culturalaspect in that area.
So it's not just the mountainbiking.
He actually have the opportunityof getting rid of an insight
into how the.
The cultures and the mountainareas are,'cause they're
(07:45):
obviously a little bit different'cause the climate is quite
different at 2000 somethingmeters versus the coastal areas.
So around there it's quite easyto access by Timor standards.
Jonty (07:57):
Excellent.
In terms of the underwater sideof things, what are some of the
coolest things that you've seenon your free diving and your
snorkeling around Timor?
Birgit (08:03):
The big drawing card is of course the whale migration.
We are very lucky that we havethe southern whale migration
coming through, and they'rerelatively reliable between
October, November now withclimate change.
Some of the reliability is a bitchanging, but there's a good
kind of six weeks to eight weekswhere we see the blue whales,
(08:28):
they're called picnic plumewhales, because they're like
about three meters shorter thanthe his whale.
They be pretty big.
We're still, they're still thelargest animal on the planet.
And then we also get spermwhales and other whales passing
through in that season.
You could be lucky, you canactually just see them from the
coast.
You could be sitting in one ofthe ocean cafes around dili or
(08:48):
further along the coast aroundbau, and so you can actually see
them from the coast.
They're coming really close.
So even if you don't want to goin a boat, you may actually just
sit on an elevated spot andwould look out for them.
That is such a once in alifetime experience seeing
actually a whale in the water,but it's also.
Not guaranteed that you see onein the weight order.
It's much more reliable that yousee them from the end.
(09:10):
But in general, year long.
Like crossing the channel fromDili to at you.
You always have a very goodchance of seeing dolphins.
Really big pots of dolphins.
We have around at, there's aresident population of melan
headed whales, pilot whales.
So they're there year round.
So if you just spend a lot oftime in a boat going around you
(09:33):
will see those kind of things.
Other than that, we have quite afew in uh, curious ones in, in
uh, both on the mainland as wellas at, and it's really
fascinating.
So yeah, when I came they, theywere not as frequently spotted
and there was quite a bit ofwork protecting the sea grass
meadows, which is the.
(09:53):
Than the food, the nutrition forDugongs.
And it seems to have had aneffect, like there is actually
more regular sightings ofdugongs now, which is really
nice.
And if somebody doesn't knowwhat a
Jonty (10:04):
dugong is, how do you describe a dugong?
Birgit (10:06):
It's a sea cow in a sense.
Some people are more familiarwith manatees, which is, part of
that family, but they're havingsome similarities to manatees,
it's like a big sea cow and itjust eats all day.
A lot of sea grass, apparentlyup to 70 kilos.
The sea grass is really smallstuff like it's really like
(10:26):
grass.
Bigger than a Terra film Cow.
But they look really cute andthey're totally harmless to us.
They're just curious and it'squite shallow
Jonty (10:35):
waters, they live in, so you don't have to go necessarily
diving.
You could see them whilesnorkeling.
Birgit (10:39):
Yeah, just two weekends ago, I saw one, I filmed one for
three and a half minutes.
'cause this one was circling usfor a good four and a half
minutes and it was reallyshallow.
It was maybe going down fourmeters.
This one I saw in, in, at the,uh, the ER reef there.
But yeah, other one in Tacito,which is just next to the
airport.
It's a very accessible site.
(11:00):
And of course you have to belucky.
It's not that you can go thereand you hope it's still a big
bay.
But compared to places, anywhereelse in the world, if you are
going there a few times, chancesare you may actually be one of
the lucky ones.
What you guarantee to see is allthe colorful fish life and the
coral fish.
(11:20):
And the beauty around timor'swater is actually that the coral
fringe, so the extra coral isreally accessible.
You don't need a boat for that.
You can just swim out.
It's just next to the coast.
And that's where you see allthe.
Like the clownfish and thelittle beautiful other.
(11:41):
Fish in all types of colors.
Jonty (11:43):
Lots of nemos and Yeah.
Birgit (11:44):
Yeah, a lot of nemos, but of course also a lot of
Doris and other fish.
Jonty (11:49):
And I like the giant clam.
I was in Samoa a few months agoand it's a big thing.
That's the giant clam sanctuaryand it's all quite touristy, but
just off in the inner reef fromat, there's some incredible
giant clams, which just I wasn'texpecting.
Birgit (12:04):
Yeah, there are.
So in the last six to eightyears with the conservation work
that happened with the coastcommunities, there's more and
more places that are having it.
A localized ban, meaning you canstill enter as a tourist, you
just pay a small access fee oflike maybe$1$52.
And then there is restrictionsto fishing and it has really
(12:24):
paid off.
You can see in those places thattwo weeks ago when I spent that
time snorkeling around and I sawthe dugong, there was also
really big lobsters and it'sreally nice.
And here it hasn't compared tosome Southeast Asian countries.
There hasn't been so muchdynamite bombing.
'cause in some places people usedynamite to help with the
fishing, which is a verydestructive method.
(12:46):
Meaning it's not just that thefish life suffers from it, but
actually there's permanentdamage to the coral reef.
But it hasn't been that widelyused here, like very sparsely
meaning there's yeah, much morehealthy coral.
Jonty (13:00):
He understand that's quite a big push from the
government.
Was it last month there was aOceans Festival that I saw the
President and the Prime Ministerin Blue and won the matter
Trident Did you go to that?
Birgit (13:11):
Yeah.
I have to say it's, I'vereflecting a lot since I first
arrived here in late 2015 towhere we are now.
'cause in five years of my timeI worked.
Really specifically in, in oceanconservation, and it was even
difficult in the beginningfinding Timor staff would be
recruited'cause no one hadactually the knowledge but now
(13:31):
it's so nice.
They're the main, the publicuniversity, UNTL has in the last
years, their own degree programfor fisheries.
Ocean related work.
And then another university hasalso something in that area.
So there is actually a lot ofTimorese who are now much more
knowledgeable about it, and manymore programs started.
(13:53):
The youth groups in particularare very active.
Timor is a very young country,not just by how long it has been
independent, but also bypopulation the Timorese.
Youth, which is anyone up to 35years is very hungry for
information about best practiceand how you can actually
(14:14):
mobilize and change things.
And there so many initiativesfrom the simple, like beach and
ocean cleanups and getting ridof all the marine day to
actually more long termeducational activities in
schools some of them.
Very successful in gettingscholarships to go to
International Ocean conferencesand bring that knowledge back.
A group I'm supporting a lot iscalled Underwater Cinema, where
(14:36):
they bring people out,snorkeling and free diving to
really introduce people from a.
Very personal connection pointof view with the ocean.
The idea is if you see it withyour own eyes, you actually have
a connection.
You want to protect it.
'cause not that many people inTimor less know how to swim.
So it starts with the simpleidea of actually allowing people
to see it with in the safety ofa life jacket.
(14:57):
And once they.
Upgrade a bit than actuallydoing snorkeling and diving.
And it's really great with thecurrent government the Prime
Minister has his own workforceBlue Economy unit which started
a bit more than a year ago.
And every year in June whenthere's the International Ocean
Day, they used it as a platformto promote very heavily and
(15:18):
connect the ocean with themountain communities.
'cause there, used to be a bitof a disconnect, just people
don't travel much.
So people will live, work in themountains.
They don't really have anyconnection with the ocean.
But this blue economy unit hasdone a lot of public events
created a children's book andthe matter material to also
(15:39):
bring it to the mountaincommunities because anything
that's being put in the rivers,in the little creeks, in the
mountains, that then come to therivers, especially once the rain
season starts and there's a lotof water movement obviously all
of that ends up eventually inthe ocean.
So the, just to make it a bitclearer that something that be
is being thrown away in themountain.
(15:59):
Has actually a clear connectionto Ocean Life and.
It was a really great event.
It was a week long event ofdifferent activities and also
putting a few locally managedmarine areas in place around
that week.
But it was a big parade.
People dressed up in fancyoutfits and looking like octopus
and sharks.
From a government point of viewthere, there's definitely a
(16:21):
clear understanding.
There is alu economy, meaninglike the ocean and anything
that's relating to the ocean.
So the recommendation and theservice providers there's
actually, monetary aspect tothat side as well.
Not just an environmental one.
Jonty (16:36):
That's amazing to hear.
Things can be quite hard to doin Timor, but equally they can
make quite big changes quitequickly.
It's a, it's a relatively smallcountry.
The prime minister, thepresident get involved
personally in these activitiesand they can really make a big
difference.
Now if you have visitors who arecoming to Timor to enjoy the
underwater life, is thereanything you'd recommend that
they bring with them?
Birgit (16:55):
It's good to bring your own mask and snorkel and maybe
also fins at least a size of finthat fits in your suitcase.
Travel fins.
Yeah, travel fins.
I'm a free diver.
I like having long fins.
'cause then you can actuallykeep up with those animals that
you would like to hang out with.
Definitely bring your mask andbring your snorkel.
'cause there's very limitedsupply to buy and hire here.
(17:18):
And you don't wanna miss out.
You want to have something thatfits so that you can actually
enjoy anything rather thanhaving to deal with a leaking
mask.
Jonty (17:28):
Exactly, and there'll be lots of opportunities for
snorkeling and diving.
'cause as you said, after DrewIsland is probably the
epicenter.
But there is quite a lot alongthe northern coast of Timor.
Now being a long time Diliresident, is there anything
you'd recommend that visitorscheck out if they have a day or
two in Dili, when you havevisitors to come visit you,
where would you take them?
Birgit (17:46):
I think you haven't seen Dili properly.
If you haven't made an attemptto go to the crystal ray statue,
which is really marking theeastern side of the city.
So there's a stretch of beaches,some with little cafes and
restaurants.
And then just at the very end ofthe dili.
Outskirts.
You have a big Christie racestatue where you can climb up or
(18:08):
you can walk around if youcouldn't even hire bicycles now
and cycle around.
So it's quite complete.
I would highly.
Encourage you to go there and onboth sides of the Crystal Ray
statue is quite nice snorkeling.
So that's where you can put theMA to good use.
Jonty (18:22):
Excellent.
Are there any commonmisconceptions about Timor Less
day that you are aware of thatthis is an opportunity to clear
up?
Birgit (18:30):
People think it's unsafe and it has been a long time that
the country had some internalconflict.
It's like we are really talkingabout 2006, so I have never felt
unsafe in this country.
So the only thing is thatsometimes it's very difficult in
dili to move around at nighttimeto places, but it's not unsafe.
(18:51):
It's the difficulty of findingtransport if you don't have your
own one.
So it's more the inconveniencerather than it being unsafe.
Jonty (18:59):
And I get asked, but obviously I'm not in the best
position to comment on this ifyou've got female visitors to
Timor, should they have anyconcerns?
Birgit (19:08):
Of course it's a place that has also incidents where
anywhere in the world,unfortunately, there's incidents
that are specifically targetedat female.
So that happens here as well.
I think on the big scheme ofthings compared to other places
they're very infrequent.
So I think to start with I wouldjust more encourage people to
(19:30):
be, and that actually applies toboth men and female, to be a bit
more conservative in what youwear, honor the local dress
code.
'cause people are dressed veryconservatively, meaning you
don't see much skin and youdon't see very short skirts or
very short shorts.
If you are exercising, it's adifferent thing, like once
(19:50):
you're actually in movement.
But then if you are reallywalking around and sitting in a
cafe, or especially if you'reoutside dili in a rural area,
just out of respect So that's Ithink something that is just a
little bit also for your ownsafety.
You will always stick outbecause you are looking
different, but it just makes youstick out in a different way.
If you are a little bit.
Like you could go to a churchrather than look like you're
(20:12):
just going for a swim, even thatyou're in the middle of a city.
Jonty (20:15):
Do you have any kind of fun fats or interesting
observations about Timor life,which might be a, something a
bit different that people couldexpect to see, when they come
here?
Birgit (20:25):
I think the funny thing is still that it's the small
things.
It's not like one big thingthat's funny in a sense, but
it's what you get creed thewhole time.
People call you malai.
The moment you're not a team,Maurice.
You're malai and you're causinga lot.
Especially kids and you'recausing a lot of excitement if
you are driving through places.
(20:46):
And I remember when my parentswere here and we were going out
to some of the rural areas witha car.
Even there, there was a lot ofshouting, a lot of welcoming and
a lot of oh malai.
So it even happens if you're insomething like a fast moving
vehicle.
But then it's a funny andfriendly
Jonty (21:02):
one.
Birgit (21:03):
It's a very friendly, it's a
Jonty (21:04):
friendly thing though.
It's a very open, welcoming.
It's still more the noveltyfactor
Birgit (21:07):
And then the moment you stop maybe to buy something in a
small kiosk.
So you're getting a lot ofattention.
A lot of kids come and arecurious about you.
And then yeah, but then it'sit's I think I've, I come across
the same situation in otherplaces where for some reason
they always call you Mr.
I'm surrounded with othergirlfriends.
(21:27):
Like they always come as Mr.
Mister, so a few things that,just a bit cute.
Yeah, there's always a lot ofexcitement.
I think the excitement is thefun part about it.
Jonty (21:36):
So when you leave Tim Oreste to go on holiday or to go
home, what are the things thatyou miss?
Birgit (21:42):
It's a little chaotic here, and when you are here, you
always feel like you need abreak from it.
But then when you're actuallyoverseas, you're sometimes in
realizing how everything elseis, always is a system.
There's a process involved andit's just so inflexible.
Life's definitely
Jonty (21:58):
more boring.
It's exhausting, but then you goleaving you, that was so
exciting and just interestingand new stuff happening
Birgit (22:05):
And there's like here, it's always you just, if you
wanna make something happen, youcan make it happen.
And there is just not a processthat you can just replicate the
next time it works like this.
Again, that's not how it workshere.
It's always you.
You have to find your way andthen things change.
Products are not availableanymore.
A person who help you out, it'snow no longer living here and no
longer in this function.
And so suddenly the processchanged.
(22:26):
So I think.
That's the chaos part.
Everything always feels chaotic.
'cause it's not just that youcan establish something and then
you're, next time you're doingit.
Simple things like you go to asupermarket and you like a
certain type of cheese.
No.
Next time when you're there,this cheese is not available
anymore.
You have to wait for, I don'tknow how many weeks for this
cheese to be imported again.
(22:47):
So there's simple things likethis.
If you like something, just buyit immediately in bulk.
But then yeah, sometimes whenI'm actually back in places like
New Zealand or Germany, whichare my two anchor points it's a
bit overwhelming about all theoptions you have and there's
always a system in place thatyou need to know exactly from A
to B, every step of the process,and please don't come up with
being creative and innovative.
(23:08):
So versus in Timor, I think it'sthe place where you just.
You have to be innovative.
You have to be creative.
'cause otherwise you miss out.
Jonty (23:16):
Now is there anything that we've not touched on today
that you think listeners mightfind useful for planning their
trip to team or making the mostof their time here?
Birgit (23:24):
It really opens doors if you learn just a few words of
Teton.
And even me after having beenhere for 10 years, I wouldn't
call myself very fluent.
But the more you know, the moreyou understand'cause people are
actually naturally shy.
So if you make it easier toapproach people, you get so much
more back in return.
So I think that's, yeah, justmake the effort of learning a
(23:46):
few words, a few sentences andit will make everything so much
more meaningful.
Jonty (23:51):
And thankfully, it's a relatively straightforward
language.
You tend to pronounce words asthey're.
Written, so that does help.
There is obviously complexitiesto any language, but relative to
some other languages it's notChinese, It's a bit easier.
Birgit (24:05):
And if you know a few words of Portuguese, Spanish or
Indonesian p Hasa Indonesia,then you can figure out a few
things quite nicely.
Jonty (24:15):
Excellent.
Thank you so much for your time.
That's been a fascinatinginsight into life in Timor and
particularly the ocean side ofthings, which I think is a big
draw card for visitors.
So thank you so much for joiningme today on the podcast.
Birgit (24:27):
Much appreciated.
Looking forward to listening toit.
Jonty (24:30):
Thank you so much for listening to exploring Timor
Less Day.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please consider leaving
a rating or review.
It really helps more peoplediscover the show.
If you have any questions orfeedback, I'd love to hear from
you.
Drop me an email at exploringTimor lessDay@gmail.com.
Until next time, or Bodo ADEs.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.