What Went Wrong with Tolkien’s 1960 Hobbit Rewrite : The Hobbit #4

When Tolkien set out to rewrite The Hobbit in 1960, much was lost, but much was gained. In the end, do the gains outweigh the losses?

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Before the rings of power, there were a
sum is
before Sauron,
there was his master Morgoth.
Before Aragorn and Darwin, there was Be and
mu.
Join us as we explore tolkien and only
the ages of middle Earth with your hosts,
from the 1 ring dot com, jonathan Watson
at michael G.

(00:24):
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this chapter.
Chapter 3, 4 of exploring h chapter episode.
That's what Meant to say because,
this is an important chapter because we're fixing
everything tolkien got wrong in chapter 1. I
mean, Tolkien is fixing everything he got wrong
in chapter 1. Who do we think we
are? Rings of power? Oh 0
we're not that good.

(00:46):
Nobody is.
Nobody is.
No. We are going through Tolkien's.
Partial rewrite of chapter 1 of the hobbit,
an unexpected party, except here he's calling it
a oil planned party. And this was 19
60. Right?
19 sixties when he started it and abandoned
it, he has...
He went through 2 chapters.

(01:08):
However, the third chapter, I believe is even
less finished. So we'll do the same thing.
We'll go through once we go through that
chapter 2 We'll also go through chapter his
rewritten chapter 2. And these changes did some
of them did make their way into the
19 66. So slightly revised
addition.
But there are far more revisions in here
In fact, there there is just a general
change and sort of, you know,

(01:30):
high perspective changes. We're looking down from a
high... From from a high mountain, and we're
seeing like, oh wow, yeah. The whole tone
and things that change in the hobbit. And
that's really interesting. So, listen to that, but
we have a couple things to go over
first. Number 1. Hey, guys, become a member,
the 1 dot com slash member, the 1
dot com slash patreon. Dollars month first month
is free. We have an extended podcast. We
have a discord channel.

(01:50):
I have occasional video chats. I've done it
a little bit more, well, recently hasn't been
last couple weeks. But when I last month
or So 1 I've been editing the podcast.
I'll jump on and see if anybody else
is on wants to, like, chat with me
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member for 4 dollars month first month is
free, You can cancel it If you don't
like what we say,
and you're triggered in our extended episodes.

(02:12):
Right.
Definitely be triggered I can happen. Because this...
We're we're going to trigger you by actually
trying to find out 1 good thing in
the hobbit films.
Hobbit it. The hobbit films in these days.
I'm talking about.
What is the 1 thing that we... That
that Peter Jackson changed that? Probably wasn't a
bad idea that we kinda liked.

(02:32):
The tar
Kill Love affair.
That's not my choice. Oh,
man, I was about to cancel answer the
entire podcast if you're gonna be electric. I
noticed
through this this re read. That, Kill and
Philly have
tools with them. They're the only dwarves with
tools. They're the only doors that work apparently.

(02:54):
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I love those little things
that, like, logically, the things that logically he
added into the the re rewrite here. Where
we're, like, and we talked about 1 of
these last week in the. Like, oh, the
instruments are there the Yep. He thought.
Still we'll name a good change in the
hobbit.
We will name a change the token should
have changed in the hobbit. Like, looking back
on it now. Maybe there's 1 thing he

(03:15):
should have. Changed in the hobbit.
And
not not Peter Jackson but tolkien should have
changed in hobbit in our opinion, and
maybe
Well, and we have a a question, like,
do we prefer how much do we prefer
our preferred version of the hobbit. Is it
the 19 60 edition? Like the the... The
style the tone that tolkien kinda shifted to

(03:35):
in that? Or is it the 19 37
slash 19 66 edition where
the similarities are far more in sync with
itself rather than with lord of rings in
a way. So we'll talk about that. In
our standard edition of lauren dot com slash
member,
To get that for a month for free.
Alright. So, before, before we get into into
this rewrite of a chapter, we do have

(03:56):
to talk about 1 thing.
And that's
ferry Rabbits?
Yes. Very rabbits.
And so remind our readers, listeners.
Readers wow. The virus of me.
That's fine. Maybe maybe some people are... They
they see the words visually as they're hearing
them...
And maybe they read along with us when
we're reading the hobbit.

(04:16):
So so this was, criticism
leveled by a book critic when the hobbit
was first released, 19 37, I think. And
well, well, I don't know what was a
criticism. It was a... Like, people worth were
assuming they were sort of these fairy rabbits
is the way he put it. Yeah. Hobbits
were new, so nobody knew what they were.
And the... I thought there was a single...
A 1 credit who started it who talked

(04:37):
about how... He imagined Hobbies
as Barry Rabbit end. And so
And so... So let we mentioned this last
last episode. And so we had a a
few folks in our our chat and me,
jump in and decide to be like, okay.
What would a fairy rabbit look like with
Ai.
Because Ai, the overlords are coming, might as
well get in sync with them now with
the lord of the rings. I for 1

(04:59):
and fully support the art new. Hey alien
over overlords Overlords. So well, then you'll be
fully supportive of things like this very rabbit.
And if you're listening, I would put the
last that shown below there gonna be like,
5 or 6 images we'll have here 1
to... 5 images.
Very rad is. There is a hobbit. You
can even see the little hobbit hobbit hole
in the background. This is called them

(05:19):
Per foot. This just from Harrison in our
chat. That is very good. I like wings.
It's it's
Peter Rabbit is a Fairy hobbit.
Like... Alright. So that's... Was that the prompt
He was did to use peter. I... He
didn't... You know what He didn't tell me
the prompt for it. So I'm not sure
off. Good.
This here is from f. He did he
did a ferry rabbit. This is very casual

(05:40):
zoom.
It's a very casual hobby rabbit. He's just
kinda hanging in front of his his hobbit
hole.
This sweet.
Then
I I got this 1 and Him I'm
kinda smoking on a bench in front. This
is very.
Is that... Wait. Is that a hyper.
Cigarette. I said pipe, but, you know, it's
Ai. It's not gonna, like, be perfect every

(06:00):
single time? Yeah Not great. Hey. But, you
know, he sitting on his bench in front
of his house, smoking.
Next we got... We got another 1 here.
This is... He has very human hands this
1. I know.
I was trying to go for that. I
said, okay. Give me give me
I don't remember the exact prop. But it
was something along the lines of

(06:21):
a ferry rabbit
in the style of Peter Jackson's lord the
rings,
with a human body or with an oversized
human body or something like that. So in
order to kinda get it more, like, a
fairy rabbit, Like, something that's a little more
hobby rabbit. So
Right. Go with this... But like a... This
kinda looks like a version of doctor who
with the rabbit head.

(06:44):
The ninth to which version of doctor Who.
The more he's gonna be the... He's he's
the bird. You know, he's the sixteenth doctor
Edward. It's okay.
Alright. Next 1 we got here. Coming soon.
Also
with Gandalf, some Fairy hobbits, Rabbits with Gandalf.
They are Gandalf, this is Yeah.
Or L... No. This is El elrond that.
I think that Prompt was with Elrond in

(07:06):
Doesn't look a scandal.
They look like a mixture between dwarves and
hobbits honestly. Like, a a dwarf hobbit rabbit
mixture. His hair guy on the right.
Because hair is giving me the den or
vibe from the... Yeah.
I know it's it. So
it's so weird, man.
Which which I actually appreciate the weirdness part

(07:26):
more. Like, The the world of fairy is
not
actually supposed to be, like, little fairies with
fairy wings. It's Yeah. It's it's a... Alternate
world that impose itself upon ours sometimes, and
and it has a lot of mystery and
odd to it. So so this with except
for the Easter bunny to his right. I...
And that's sort of... They just threw that

(07:47):
in. With a with the with the the
the bow tie too, which is... Right.
Right. And and then lastly,
they all have hobbit a regular people's hands,
but rabbit feet.
So
very interesting. Look dude. Okay. Lastly,
here we go. These are... This is sort
of like the fellowship. The fellowship of the
fairy habits.
But,
it's Sam Middle.

(08:08):
I like how. That you got the port...
They're they're a little more port these. They
I like these ones. Yeah. These ones might...
And this 1 feels like a diagram. Look
at the the grass is so short.
So in case, this was kinda fun, but
these are... This is not what Tolkien envisioned
as hobbits. These are not fairy rabbits there.
Indeed. So hobbits. I like out 1 of
them has human hands and the other 2

(08:30):
tote.
Yeah.
I know. It's Ai is so weird.
It's... I don't I don't know where they
get this sometimes. So...
Alright. Cool. So there you go. Yeah. What
did you it... Is this mid journey?
This was stable diffusion. This was... I... I'm
not sure I... I'm not sure who used
what here. This was... I just used the

(08:51):
local build of stable diffusion order to to
build it. So Got it. Gonna don't have
to pay anybody for it.
Alright. So
let us then now that now that we're
done with fairy ferry hobbits.
Let's get into
Facts.
Hobbit facts? Okay. Did you know?

(09:11):
Everybody. That token actually
invented the word
dwarves.
That would be DWARVES.
Dwarves not the dwarf, but dwarves, and how
did he invented it well according to his
own words, it was a result of bad
grammar.
That were his... That was his word. So
let me read you this quote from an,
a letter he sent to Stanley un when

(09:32):
his publisher on 10/15/1937.
He said this.
No reviewer that I have seen, although all
have carefully used the correct dwarf dwarf DARFS
themselves has commented on the fact which I
only became conscious of through reviews that I
use throughout the, quote, incorrect plural dwarves

(09:53):
I'm afraid is just a piece of private,
bad grammar, rather shocking in a pathologist,
but I shall have to go on with
it. Perhaps my dwarf, since he and the
gnome are only translations into approximate equivalence of
creatures with different names and rather different functions
in their own world, may be allowed to
peculiar your plural.
The real historical plural of dwarf like teeth

(10:15):
of tooth is do.
Anyway, rather a nice word, but a bit
to our cake.
Still, I rather wish I had used the
word do.
It this next the.
So it's funny that dwarves as we all
call it, like, Dwarf seems weird now with
the the f s, but V seems far

(10:35):
more normal because he normalized it in... Because
the tolkien did it. Yes. Because it was
a private piece of bad grammar, far So
it's awesome. But he accepted it, and he
fought this for years, so even later.
In 19 61 in a letter to rain
on on win. You'll note the previous letter
was to Stanley on an un win Rain

(10:56):
father, who was the original publisher of the
hobbit he said this.
Dwarves, dwarves within an apostrophe. And Do have
been corrected throughout. He's talking about a,
copy of the Lord of the rings.
They have been corrected throughout with 1 exception
on page 21 to the current dictionary forms,
dwarf and War,
El Elvis,
and L well Elvis has been changed to

(11:18):
El
7 times, but unchanged 3 times. I view
this procedure with Dungeon, which means ind nation.
I deliberately used dwarves for a special purpose
and effect. U aha. Is he changing the
past right there? Because he remembering it apparently,
he said, I deliberately used dwarves, etcetera. For
a special purpose and effect that it has
an effect can be gauge by comparing the

(11:39):
passages with the substitutes dwarf, especially in inverse.
The point is dealt with in Lord of
the rings, page 04:15. Of course, I do
not expect competitors or proof readers to know
that or to know anything about the history
of the word dwarf.
But I should have thought it might have
occurred if not a comp competitor or at
least to a reader that the author would
not have consistently getting on for 300 times

(12:00):
a particular form,
Nor would your readers have passed. It was
a mere casual mistaken grammar. If it was
a mere casual mistaken grammar. But he's like,
look, it wasn't like, a typo for 300
times in the book. I said dwarves on
purpose at this point. Although his memory is
a little bit iffy fee that he says
I did it for a special purpose in
effect. Well,
I don't think so. I'm gonna I'm gonna
defend it on this 1III

(12:21):
think that
he if faced with his previous letter to
the win father,
Stan... Is it Stanley the father?
Stanley is the father. Yes. Yeah.
He he would probably rightly point out, yes,
back then, it was a mistake, and I
went with it. And I decided I had
to go with it. And then I wrote
some new books, and that was a deliberate

(12:42):
choice. And in other words, when he's responding
to the first done when he's responding with
Regard Hobbit. But the time he writes the
3 new books. These are this is a
this is a a deliberate choice. No. No
I know. Yeah. He is. He is doing
it for
Originally, it might not have been a deliberate
choice. It was more of a... It was
a mistake. He of private grab bad grammar.

(13:02):
Yes. With, in in the Lord of Rings
is the it is it is a deliberate
choice. However, at this point in the hobbit
where we are.
It is not used for special purpose and
No. No. No. But I like the sound
a bit better, and I him I agree
with him on first, Like, when you try
to chant or sing the word dwarf dwarf
forbes. Yeah. It it just... The the f

(13:23):
sound is difficult
from a well as an as an ending
sound.
It's sort of like, I don't believe the
word is roofs. Right? But a lot of
people say the word roofs, even though it's
roofs,
because the F s is a little tough.
The word roof or rub.
A ar
is
pronounced differently in different regions of the country
of America anyway, and in England too. So

(13:46):
interesting.
But But
dwarves are now dwarves and everyone uses. It...
I I can say pretty pretty pretty
firmly that
basically, everyone uses dwarves as the plural of
dwarf. Right. Right. Although I just... I'm trying
to think of about other f s words.
And hoo goes to Hoo.

(14:06):
Mh. So it's not it's not out of
the ordinary that this here Roof goes to
roofs.
Yeah.
In any case, I love this little bit
of of information. He created the word dwarves,
V e.
And we still use it and everybody uses
it. And now he... It's should changed so
much that when you see Dwarf, F s,
it feels a little weird, especially in fantasy.
It feels. Mh. A little weird. Anyway, there

(14:28):
you go. That is your. And I love
this little video. This little officer here. Thank
you Austin. And thank you, for for putting
these together. That is your weekly
covid facts.
Right. Well, it's only 1 this week, but
these are your hobbit facts every week. That
we put together.
Alright. So let's get into...
I'm I'm

(14:50):
looking forward to
late August, early September. We go back to
the rings of power and we do a
hobbit fax, and their... Our hobbit... Our first
hobbit fact will just be the flipping pages,
hobbit facts, and then just show a picture
of the... When Sturdy little soc pass. These
are not hobbits. Is it not the end.
That's the end of our hobbit facts for
this

(15:10):
Man Yeah. Not of it. And that is
gonna be great. Alright. We're gonna... So we're...
This is interesting. I've never done this before.
This is... I've never compared... Somebody's revision to
their original or vice versa an original tool.
Never I never have either. And so this
is this is a little bit of an
experiment for us to try and see how
we get through this year. So here's what
we're gonna do. Somebody's Start large. Star large.
We're gonna go sort of why so you

(15:31):
guys have a perspective of what it is,
and we'll read some passages and here I'm
sure as we get through it. There's a
lot to read so we can't... Like, there's
a lot of little changes
in the 19 60 edition, which you can
get by buying the history of the hobbit,
I think it's a 20 dollar Kindle book
in, like, a 40 dollar print. If you
can actually get it. I ordered it
5 4 weeks ago without, I think it
is, and it still hasn't shipped. So I'm

(15:52):
not sure when it's coming in. But if
you wanna read it, that... That's that's where
you get it from. It's a thousand page
book about the hobbit, but 1 section has
these chapters in it. Alright. So 30000 foot
perspective, we're we're looking way down on the
changes that Tolkien,
he came to it and was like,
I got changed a lot of this here.
Yep.
And so

(16:12):
Here is my first thought we'll talk about
it, and then let's go to your first
thought, Michael.
And then after we go, we'll go to
specific thoughts and then more some of the
removal and changes that he did in the
in the text itself.
It is
a little more concise
in general. Everything is a little more concise.
That's 1 of the things I took away
from it.
And I had.

(16:34):
I have a couple I have a couple.
This is hard to to do because my
highlights are all in different places. But I
have a couple highlights to to exe simplify
that.
And 1 is,
when
when... The good morning, But statement, which was
a little surprising when I read this, is
totally different. So in the original hobbit, when,

(16:54):
Gandalf says... Or so when Bilbo says, good
morning to Gandalf,
Gan responses is.
What do you mean? Do you wish he...
What do you mean? He said, do you
wish me a good morning or mean that
it is good morning whether I wanted it
or not? Or that you feel good this
morning? Or that it is morning to be
good on?
That's the original. Here's the rewritten text.
What do you mean? He said that it

(17:14):
is a fine morning, and you feel pleased
with yourself
Perhaps you wish me to feel please too.
I may. We'll see.
Was like, whoa. Well, it kinda of changes
the meaning too, but it is much more
concise. There's there's far less word play in
this and
thought process that you have to do to
understand. Like, it's very direct. Maybe that's the
best way to put it. It's Right. And

(17:35):
there's some... There's some missing text at the
end of their conversation where he talks about
giving him what he wants. In the in
the original version or and and he just
leaves that out entirely in the rewritten mh
version.
Yeah. So he... That whole word play is
completely going. I found that to be sad.
I I... It's it's he's not... He's... Less

(17:57):
playful. My my overarching feel of this is
more serious and concise less playful. That's my
that's my big picture. Yeah.
Analysis. Yeah. That's very similar to mine. Mine
was more concise more state and less charming.
There's a charm arm. Okay. Okay. You use
that. But playful is 1 of the words
that was out there for me to. But
Charming was the word did I use. Here's

(18:17):
another example of where I think he's...
More concise and less charming.
This is about adventures. I'm looking for game
sizing no to share an adventure and photo...
Photo. Bilbo responds with this.
I should think so, meaning,
you know, he will he's... It's difficult to
find anyone to share an adventure. He said,

(18:40):
Frodo.
Bilbo said this. I should think so in
these parts. We are playing quiet full and
have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things nick for dinner, I can't think what
anybody sees them.
And then the rewritten 1, He says, we
are, I should think so in these parts.
We are playing quiet folk and have no
use for adventures. Nasty disturbing things make you

(19:00):
late for dinner.
And I'm I'm, like, the only word he
changed here is he got rid of the
word uncomfortable, but he still made it work
concise. He's was like, oh, that 1 word.
We're is gonna move that. And I found
that in a, quite a few places where
he just removes 1 word where he just
removes 1 short phrase. And so while not
a lot has changed here.
He just removes uncomfortable. They're just nasty disturbing

(19:22):
now, not nasty disturbing uncomfortable things.
I have a couple more examples too. I
don't know if we wanna keep going through
those, but, yeah. There there... Those those places
where he removes those words. That's... That's that's
really what's the got me. When it comes
to just the concise. Now. I think there's
a... That we can talk about that the
the other... Higher level things too, Like, I

(19:42):
think, they'll. Well, well, there's to to harp
on the playful the lack of playful,
1 of the sad parts is to me
another sad part is he,
in the ex little fellow,
which is changed from ex a little man.
From the 19 37 version, but except little
fellow remained. It was 1 of the few

(20:02):
from the 19 60 rewrite that remained. But
he says,
this is after Bilbo has s and Gandalf
says excited a little fellow, and this is
the
the version that we know,
except for the word fellow.
As they sat down again, gets funny queer
fits, but he has 1 of the best.
1 of the best is as fierce is
a dragon in a pinch. If you have

(20:23):
ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you
will realize that was only poetic political
exaggeration, applied to the hobbit even to any
hobbit Eb to old,
took great grand uncle Bo Bo, who was
so huge for a hobbit. That he could
write a horse. He charged the ranks of
the goblins at Mount Graham in the battle
of the Greenfield and knocked their king golf
Bulls head clean off with a wooden club.
Sailed a hundred yards of the air and

(20:44):
went down a rabbit hole, and in this
way, the battle was won, and the game
of golf invented at the same moment.
Very hilarious and playful.
The new version, he takes out Brave as
a dragon in a pinch and he immediately
jumps to
the old... The bull, who he gives the
the the for his his full name or

(21:07):
at least his his first name Band.
He says, as Brave as band at a
pinch, no doubt in exaggeration, but Gandalf was
doing his best in a difficult situation. For
bad had been the old took great grand
uncle and usually called Bull. He was so
huge for a hobbit that he wrote a
small horse. At the battle, the Greenfield when
the hobbits were driven back. He charged for
the ranks of the goblins of Mount Graham

(21:28):
and smoked their king golf bowl to the
earth with his great wooden club, so the
Battle was 1, and there had been none
since in the shire. Even the dwarves had
heard a Bo took.
So he completely cuts out the gulf
reference,
and he adds in a few other details
like when the hobbits were driven back.

(21:50):
And in other words, he's kind of giving
you up the the...
A more epic take, Like, the hobbits are
about to lose and then Bo comes in.
He does something much more realistic, which in
1 sense, which is he, you know, it
crush them to the ground. It's not quite
realistic to knock a head off of a
person a hundred yards
And but so so the the

(22:12):
the rewrite is more serious, less playful
in and sad,
in my mind because it removes the whole
goal. And also brief. It's a good. That's
probably the best example of he. He... Yes.
Mix exercises the things that he finds
less important.
Yeah. It it it's it it is, like,
reading it. It made me honestly,

(22:33):
a little,
sad. Like, oh,
it's just not as fun anymore. It's not
a story that pulls me in, like it
as a kid even as an adult even
as much. It just doesn't...
Like that when he... The whole good morning,
that that was the first tip to me
when he got rid of the good morning
line that
His attitude towards the world had changed completely

(22:55):
and he felt like that was out of
place now.
Exactly.
Exactly. And at little things, like he changes
the word, Gandalf,
at the... When the final, 4 dwarves and
Gandalf at the door and bilbo opens the
door suddenly, and they all come piling in
in the
original version is this
gandalf b rates him for

(23:16):
opening his door like a pop gun. He
says. And and and then in the rewrite,
he changed it to opening your door like
a trap.
Which is which is just... I mean, first
of all, I understand because you're removing... You
you could say, well, he's removing the reference
to something much more modern
and so which is the first thing I

(23:36):
thought But the second thing I thought was,
opening your door like a pop gun is
playful.
Opening your door like a trap
is
not
Mh. And so so so there's a... There's
just a whole
and even Gandalf,
when Gandalf talks about,
his own attempt to find someone as their.

(23:58):
As their fourteenth
companion,
in the
version that we read right now, which he
eventually stayed with
Gandalf
says things like, that would do no good.
It would be no good to the wizard,
not without a mighty warrior or even a
hero. I tried to find 1. But wires
are busy fighting 1 another in distant lands.

(24:20):
Yeah. Were heroes are scarce or simply not
to be found. And when he goes on
to talk about how Hobbit.
Weapons aren't really weapons. They're just used for
as tools,
which there are some changes in that too.
And in the new version, he says,
That would do no goods at the wizard,
not even for lawyers of the elder Days
who cannot now be matched,

(24:40):
but we have discussed all that. Anyway, we're
not looking for a wire in the shire,
and that's it. And then he goes on
to talk about how other their swords are
blunt, they're actually are used for trees, and
etcetera. So he just cuts out the whole
part of trying to find a Mighty warrior
Being a hero and warriors who fighting another
in distant lands that this neighborhood your heroes
were scarce
him And that all, he he makes a
reference to warriors of the elder days, Capital

(25:03):
capital d. He does that a couple times
like Bilbo
says,
goes in his voice goes into a Whisper.
Says, you know, when he's talking about what
Gandalf, the effect Gan off his head on
the shire. He says, you know, that You've
even taking people on adventures to the Capital
o, other, capital s shores other shores. As
a wish, which is probably a reference to
Val

(25:23):
and and the elder days. So get... So
tolkien is clearly bringing in references to the
middle Earth
here. But the fact that he takes whole
funny description about him trying of find a
hero or a warrior, and and they're not
to be found and they're fighting each other
and stuff. Just more playful. That tolkien just
takes that out. It just says, but we
have discussed all that in any way, we're

(25:43):
not looking for wear of the shire.
Yeah. Very concise, very very, very trunk and,
less playful.
Yeah. And it it even starts with the
first... The very first description of Gandalf
from
from the Hobbit. If you remember that when
he says Gandalf when what when Gandalf appears
silicon rights. Gandalf. Gandalf. If you would would've

(26:03):
have heard the for the things that we've
heard about Gandalf here, let me read that
to you.
This is how he describes Gandalf.
Gandalf,
if you had heard only a quarter of
what I've heard about him, and I've heard
only very little, Of all that there is
to hear, you would be prepared for any
sort of remarkable tale, tails and adventures sprout
up all over the place wherever he went
in the most extraordinary fashion

(26:24):
He had not been down that way under
Hill for ages age ages. Okay. So that's
where it it goes on. This is how
he says it
in,
The the well planned party, not the unexpected
party, because now this chapter is much more
well planned. In fact.
Clear 1. He writes this at that moment,
Gandalf appeared. Gandalf, those who go in for
ancient history, Capital A Capital h will pick

(26:47):
up their ears although fu... Know all that
there is to tell about him. Wherever he
went strange things happened and he left behind
him marvelous tales.
And so... And here you get rid of
the lines about
if you'd only heard a quarter of what
I've heard about him, and I've only heard
very little of all is to hear you'd
be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.
It sets him up as a much bigger

(27:07):
figure. Though he described him as a small
man in the original hobbit. He had a
large impact. And here it's almost he's diminishing
his impact in the way that he... Refers
him because he's all about ancient history
and marvelous tales, not the the words that
he gets rid of our remarkable tale
extraordinary
patch of, of fashion.

(27:28):
Tails and adventure sprout it up. They didn't
just... They they weren't part of a history
book, they sprout it up wherever he went.
And so It's a much more visceral
gandalf. He is involved. He is he is
creating adventures. And so the adventure he's bringing
Frodo.
Makes it seem much more of a of
a of of an impact in the world
right now, not just part of ancient history.

(27:49):
And so that That Right that's the charm
that's gone. But Gandalf is no longer this
wizard who is coming in and is going
to suck him up out of his life
and throw him on a grand adventure which
which he's known for, and you can't even
quite recount because they're so great.
You lose that in in the the rewrite
in 19 60,
I I also found he got more specific

(28:12):
on numbers. He got... He put in a
lots more numbers
than he wasn't. I have just 3 examples.
Mh
to to
illustrate it, but there are more...
He points out that bilbo in the rewrite.
He points out that Bilbo parents died around
80 years old, which she just didn't have
in the 37 or the 66 version. He

(28:33):
said they died young.
At 80 years old, which is young for
Hobbits.
And
and then... And so he's concerned more with
years. He says, in the in the original
version he says, dragons when Thor talk about
Dragons. He says, they live practically forever and
in the new version in the rewrite, he
says, they live a thousand years maybe.

(28:55):
In the old version, he set makes no
mention at all of...
How long ago he found
the map from,
Thor father, but in the rewrite, It's very
specific. And he says 91 years. Mh. Ago.
He's guarded it. So he's very... He's clearly
very...

(29:15):
Concerned with timelines as we know that he
is with the Lord of the rings where
he spends a along with time in the
append he's trying to make Thailand timelines work.
And that that I saw that bleed over
a little bit into the hobbit rewrite. Yeah.
That specificity
is important is interesting.
He's far more aware of it now than
he was when he wrote it for his

(29:37):
children and told it and then put it
down because it wasn't a part of the
greater overall story. And he... He at this
point, when he wrote the hobbit, he didn't
have the rings of power and the third
age and the second age agent house Sauron
took... Like, that was not created at the
point that he wrote the hobby. Right. From
now there's this great ancient history that we
just talked about is already there. And so
specificity is important. And that is the only
in numbers,

(29:57):
that's also...
In explaining how they got their instruments,
because, yeah. Because the... You know, 1 of
the things we talked about and 1 of
the things our members brought up last things
like word they get these instruments from there,
they just go around carrying instruments well, I
guess so. And in fact, tolkien added that
in there. And so when Bi,
Beau and Bomb at these Up here, they

(30:18):
say, at your service said by for Beau
and Bumper, a little cool standing in row,
and then tolkien can out this. They brought
in a large bag and what look like
sticks wrapped in costs which they put in
the whole stand.
Those sticks wrapped with costs are the instruments
that they use later to play in
in in the in in his parlor. Right?
When they're singing their songs. Yeah. So the...

(30:40):
That specificity, like, he can't leave things out
that wouldn't
make sense later. Like, he had to add
those things back in. So let me ask
you a question. Mh. I noticed that with
some of those things
it doesn't really
make a difference to the playful
versus the seriousness. Like, clearly, when he he

(31:01):
never completed his rewrite, and maybe that's why,
you know, a lot of these changes never
made it into the 19 66 version that
we're all familiar with. Most familiar with.
But
do you think
that he was deliberate about not putting in
some of those things I I just don't
see the benefit of not putting in that
1 line, for example, about the instruments. Like

(31:21):
it doesn't it doesn't hurt anything. We... He
talks about the specificity of them hanging up
their cloak and tassels,
call the the cloak and ta colors and
all that stuff. So why wouldn't
adding keeping the bag in there. And then
other ones, like, which are clearly just sort
of
mistakes.
Like, the 1 I read were... He says
ex little fellow where we talked about last

(31:42):
week,
how It was another author of another series
entirely that pointed out that he admired that
pointed out to him that this is...
This is, you know, do you mean man...
Because he he said ex a little man
and the other author, you know, points out,
you know, do you mean and Fellow? And
so he changed that to fellow. But then
The following paragraph uses the word man 3
times to describe Bilbo, Gandalf does. And so

(32:04):
when he's talking about going to find a
man, and now he's found a man. And,
and it's burglar, and etcetera.
But he left those in Do you think
he did that all on purpose? Or do
you think he was just couldn't be bothered?
Like, he just threw away the rewrite, And
so a lot of even its most
meaning or the 1 the changes that made
the most sense and didn't remove the playful.

(32:26):
Also went by the wayside. Was it accidental
or on purpose?
That he put in... That he left man
in there?
Left man in there that he didn't put
in the rewrite about the line about the
instruments in the middle No. He added he
added the instruments line. Is what I'm saying.
Yeah. Yeah. But he didn't... But the 19
66 version doesn't have a Oh, didn't he
didn't add it back into there. Well, I
think... So there's a there's a letter, and

(32:47):
I don't have it right in front me
1 of his letters where he actually mentions
he's like, he... Oh no. No. I know
where it is. It's in the it was
Humphrey carpenter actually mentioned that Tolkien when he
did the edit 19 66. He couldn't find
his notes to go back and re Yeah.
And so... Oh, okay. He he...
So we had a few of them, but
not but not many. He had a few
of them, but not many. And so what

(33:08):
was what was chief in his brain? He
actually had to go through it
that he actually didn't didn't know where those
were didn't remember.
Well, that would make sense, and that makes
some of it's a shame.
So he's he said, I I would... I
wonder then if he had found those notes,
the step that puts it in entirely given
like, So he never made the choice to
stay playful

(33:29):
and less serious. Yeah. He ran out of
time. So here's here's what Carpenter Carpenter wrote.
In his... In his biography 19 80, 19
79 I think it was, I'll read the
whole chat... The whole paragraph. It has long
been known that the last work tolkien did
on the hobbit, the third edition 19 6...
6 came about at his publishers request since
the appearance of your unauthorized Ace paper basketball
on the lord rings in the summer of

(33:50):
19 65.
Method Hot and And now Ball books needed
him to produce produce a revised authorized text
in order to be
assert the American copyright. Humphrey free carpenter describes
how tolkien began. So he was forced to
do this. He didn't really want to do
this and his worth to throw in a
bunch of edits,
and
Carpenter Carpenter in his book, token biography says
this. Tolkien spent many hours searching for some

(34:13):
revision notes that he had already made, but
he could not find them. When the next
day, he did get down to the hobbit,
he found a good deal of it, quote,
very poor and had to rest strain himself
from rewriting the entire book.
It sounds just like, but, yeah, even then
he wanted to go back and and rewrite
it. But it's also just like him where
he doesn't ever finish the rewrite. Right? He

(34:33):
never finished. So many of these stories. He
would have these notes and then he couldn't
find them later And would have to rewrite
those notes. So that's why we get 13
12:13. How many books in the history is
Earth? I can never remember is a 13.
He's 13. Anyway you. Yeah.
So that's why we get so many notes
and why we have these different versions of
different things because he would lose these notes
and then go find them So Yeah. He
I think it's just oversight. I think it's

(34:53):
just he didn't... He he remembered,
somebody mentioning that he's not really a man
so they do change. Yeah. That's the Arthur
ransom quote. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, yeah. So, again,
the the specificity is gone. The the charm
is gone change Also, I think part of
the charm. Like, let me ask you this.
What do you think? All the suicides are
gone. Like, what would you? Like, well, okay.

(35:14):
It's like, Gandalf, like, if you had heard
the all the things I'd heard about Gandalf.
Right? Or
what's another 1? Like, buy some curious by
some curious choice. I these little sides that
he throws in that he get all get
through. 1 of I found funny was when
he... When Bilbo was speaking up for himself.
And he says,
in the 60 sixth version, he says all

(35:35):
the same. I should like it all plain
and clear that he ops... Said he,
putting on his business manner, and then in
there here's the aside. Usually reserved for people
who tried to borrow money off. Yeah. And
he removed that usually reserved part entirely from
the from the rewrite. Yes. Yeah. And so
do you do you think
removing those aside makes it

(35:57):
less charming,
number 1? Yes. And do you think it
makes it... But do you think it makes
it any better? It makes it more epic.
So it makes it it moves it into
a narrative style. Mh. Closer to lord of
the rings and more epic,
but it loses its charm. And I think
that's the...
The interesting tension that tolkien is always

(36:18):
trying
probably intuitively many times to balance, which is
The thing that makes 1 of the many
things that makes the hobbit and the hobbits
in the lord of the Rings,
so relatable to us so attractive is they
feel real. They feel like
domestic normal characters. It's like... Oh, in the
Lord of the rings, it's like a world

(36:38):
populated by mythical figures.
And we identify with the hobbits.
We don't identify with Aragorn. We don't identify
with Lego. We don't identify with Bo. We
don't identify with Gandalf.
Okay? We identify with the hobbits, and their
domestic nature, their charm,
that's 1 of the great.
Hooks I think of lord of the Rings

(37:00):
of the whole world that he made. But
that hook depends on the hobbit. That hook,
like, there were no hobbits in the Si.
And so so there's this there's this very
interesting tension between the high
epic
narrative of the Si and the world of
lord the... Most of the world or the
rings, and the domestic

(37:20):
child like draw of the hobbit, and the
charm and the playful of the hobbits.
And I think that having them as 2
separate books is...
Maybe it's...
It's happy circumstance.
It's happy chance. Right? If chance you call
it.
It's where you have 1 book, which is
very child like, which is the Hobbit. Very

(37:42):
playful, very charming. They introduce such to the
hobbits. And then now the hobbits become the
main characters in lord of the Rings
or some of the main characters.
But
So we... So... But but then the the
the whole tenor,
the whole voice chain, narrative voice changes, and
now we're in a rut what they call
it register. An narrative register, which is epic.

(38:02):
And and no longer children's.
And so I... I find all of this
to be that tension between her the playful
charming domestic
hobbits,
and the
serious
dramatic tragic epic,
low world of the middle Earth.
And I... I find... I I think in

(38:22):
that tension, lives so much of our attraction
to lord of the rings to across the
spectrum in the world. Why why it's beloved
of so many people. Yeah. And I think
going back to rewrite something that didn't originally
live in that tension and to create that.
The is really difficult.
Very. Because it's a natural thing. Like, as
you're writing it, you're not thinking about how
this tension lives. It's just the natural out

(38:44):
pouring of of of the characters and the
locations and the story. And when you go
back to to edit it even though,
I think it was Or Scott Scott once
said, like, the the difference between a good
book and a great book is about a
hundred revisions.
That going back and revising after the success
of it and the part of the reason
for success is its charm. Even though I

(39:06):
might say, like, some of those aside,
I'm not a huge fan of, I think
getting rid of maybe a few of those
would have been okay.
Particularly the first person 1 when you're breaking
that fourth wall and saying, like, you know,
like, yeah, if you had heard, like, when
the when the when the narrator... Speaking directly
to you. I'm not a big fan of
that I'm getting rid of those. I would
be perfectly fine with. But when he changes,

(39:27):
can fu and be bothered these dwarves still.
That... I I was gonna bring that Yeah.
Chase lost our. We lost our word of
the week. Yes. That's right. My word of
the week was and tolkien took it from
me this week. Maybe just changed it to
confounded and bother
instead investigate and be bother. Which yeah is
so much better. Yes. Right. And be bothered

(39:47):
and be bothered became bothered and be. And
even the and even the the poetic nature
of be bothered and be bothered. Right? There's...
There's... There's a little bit of that sing
song nature of it to it that I
like, that you get rid of it when
he changed it to bothered
and be will.
And in in and in looking at...
His changes. I feel like
it's not even the sizing of certain things

(40:09):
that bothers me the most. It's it's just
just like the rings of power. It's not
the the adding of things or they're removing
the things, it's the changing
of a lot of the things.
And when you change...
The phrases and you change the tenor and
the tone of the words that are being
used. It it changes it even more than
getting rid of the line

(40:30):
about, you know, if you'd heard of the
things of Gandalf. Right? It... By changing the
the the
got bothered, it has that charm because it's
It's an archaic language. Like, in the... The
real words, but he's using them here, and
I think it gives it that sense of,
like, there's there's a...
I don't know. There... There's a playful to
this because the words are more than just

(40:51):
like he was annoyed, and which is really
what what tolkien was was saying with he's
bothered now.
And I didn't I like that. That's where
the good morning lines. Oh, man, that can
fest be bothered, be bothering and be be
willing and be whether Write those. Man, those
are the things that bothered me the most
And I'm a guy who... I I mean,
I love poetry and much did it did
it be bother you?

(41:12):
It did it be bothered me You wouldn't
bothered.
I I love... So I love, like, 1
of my favorite poems is Jab. By Louis
Carroll because of the sounds, and I love
the sound of the language when it goes
to. That's why I love Old English so
much,
like the Lord's Prayer and old Such a
wonderful seat sounding thing. And so Mh. When
you get rid of the
the sound... The

(41:34):
the sound of wonderful Crow I appreciate very
much, and there's much wonderful prose in the
hobbit. And I wish that he wouldn't have
taken so much of it out. And I
think that's the biggest loss in the rewrite.
1212
and threw and through the Bore babe blade
with sn snack. Yes. Right.
He love it dead. And with its head,
he went gl back.

(41:54):
Great. Wanna love Jab. Yeah. Watching.
Yeah. So there's a...
There there there is a real
and it's it's great because there is a
real Jab,
Lewis Carol element to that.
And and I think that,
I think that Tolkien

(42:15):
knew that, and he was deliberately trying to...
He saw the higher register,
I mean, after all, he wrote 3 books
in the higher register.
And and his higher register
epic
was something that he... Found more worthy, and
so he was trying to bring the hobbit
up into that register, and also correct some
things, which... Because because let's be frank, the

(42:35):
hobbit was a children's tale spur... Spawned by
sp is the wrong word spark. Let's use
that. Sparked by his own telling of a
tail. I mean, like those are sides and
those a narrator notes,
remind me, like, very much of a talking
with his back to the fire, telling a
story to his kids, and you have those
kind of... First person, you know,

(42:56):
narrative notes that about what about the characters
and talking to that to the to the
listener. Mh. And
and that's
that's perfectly appropriate for that register. But this
is... And so I've been noticing that is
I've been reading... Reread the hobbit here,
I'll have a lot to say about that
in chapter 2 as well Roast mutton because
there's a different register that is totally...

(43:19):
It's fascinating and I need to compare the
world of Lord of the rings
to the world of the hobbit, and then
they're supposed to be the same world ultimately,
but they're really not narrative.
When you... And there's a lot of... There's
a lot of
evidence of that. And so that's... It's really
fun, and it provides... And Don't I don't
even... It's not a problem to me. It's
just a fun tension that makes Yeah makes

(43:41):
a difference and it's fun notice and see
all the details that that make it do
so difference. So different
he talks about
Dragons in the in the originals
version, Dragons knowing the market value you of
what they have.
That she totally took out.
I'm about I'm okay with that. I really
I'm really fine with that 1. However, here's

(44:02):
you Okay. We were talking about specific things
that were removed that
That that we can talk about. 1 of
them
made its way into the films and and
Ian Mc worded that... Very well when he
says I am Gandalf and Gandalf means me.
Yes.
He got rid of that. So let me
read you the original line from very

(44:23):
from the hobbit,
this is from the original hobbit, not the
19 60 edition.
Yes. Yes, my dear, sir, and I do
know your name, mister Bilbo Bag, and you
do know my name though you don't remember
that I belong to it. I am Gandalf.
And Gandalf
means me.

(44:44):
Okay. So that was the original hobbit, and
you you you you
But that that was done in Peter Jackson's
Hobbit and Ian Mcconnell wonderful voice and run
and, you know, rendition of of Gandalf. And
this is what he rewrote it to.
Yes. Yes, my dear, sir, but I do
know your name, mister Bilbo Bag, and you
knew my name once when you were younger
and brighter.
It is Gandalf in this part of the

(45:05):
world. Gandalf, do you hear?
It again, the the way he rewrote it,
it loses the charm of the character of
Gandalf?
That that sort of circular like, I'm Gandalf
and Gandalf means me. It's the same sort
of the thought of, like, good morning. Like,
I'm I'm being... Like, working with the word
morning, but here he's working with the word
Gandalf from Gandalf simply means Gandalf And good

(45:25):
morning simply means good morning. Right. I love
that. And he lost that. I don't know
if it's good You know, it's kinda like,
a lot of people when there they're younger,
they're sort of a... They're more willing to
take chances. And maybe that that worked here
and talking, like, he was so... Caught up
and trying to do the Si once he
published the lord of the rings, at least
mentally, but maybe that is affecting him in
a in a negative less

(45:48):
approachable way. It makes these... I mean, certainly,
we can say the silver more wireless less
approachable than the hobbit. And I think that
this rendition of
the hobbit is less approachable than what we
are reading in every publication get for. So
what you're saying is you're glad he lost
his notes.
Glad he lost his notes. Yes.
I am... I wanna ask you to close

(46:08):
up. I wanna ask you 1 1 thing,
and this comes from,
the author,
of this book. His name is John Re.
Rat, RATELIFF.
Okay? He says this about Bilbo this is
what he says, in regards to how Tolkien
changed him,
not just here, but also in unlike, the
the quest... What is the quest of?

(46:31):
In
mh. That's in in... Is that
that in the append? I think it's in
the append or is it...
I think it's... I it's the append. Yeah.
Right. Okay. So he says this finally, Bilbo
is made more foolish.
Someone who, quote, loved maps and had his
favorite walks all marked out on the neighborhood
map made by himself.
He would know what the Dragon haunted mountain

(46:52):
they speak of is more than a day
or 2 is more than a day or
2 or even a few days walk. Maps
made in the shire might tend to end
at its borders. But he would certainly know
that Thor's kingdom and Sma lair must lie
outside those borders. And this naive is extended
beyond the end of the book. We are
told that he got caught up in great
events, which he never understood and become... And
he
became enormously important though he never realized it.

(47:13):
But this contradicts the Lord of the rings
where Bilbo took part in the Council of
Elrond and learned if he did not know
already from Gandalf that his ring was the
1 ring, who its maker and master was
and what would happen if he regained it.
He even volunteered to undertake the request of
Mount himself, which is not so qui exotic
as it sounds given that the quest was
to rely on luck and Stealth not Marshall
Pro. More importantly, contradicts the closing lines of

(47:33):
the hobbit itself,
where Gandalf who serves as Tolkien Spokesman,
more than any other character assures Bilbo that
he only played a small role in all
these events. This mini
diminish of bilbo,
a simple feature of the quest for airborne
becomes even more pronounced in the next chapter.
So do you think like he is he
is making bilbo more foolish in these

(47:55):
in this rewrite. I mean, I guess what
it it says it's gonna... It's even more
pronounced in the next chapter. It's what it's
what he's claiming in
the...
It's... It's ways why claiming talking, hud tolkien
can change him as he progressed in time
Do you know? Yeah. I found that fascinating.
I didn't see it as much. There's only
2 examples he gives from this chapter, and
they didn't seem that. I mean, yes. I

(48:16):
agree with him about the map example.
I just don't I don't see it he's
seen... Like, if you look at all of
the
words that Bilbo speaks in this first chapter,
even in the rewrite.
And everything... The net effect is isn't really
to make it more foolish. If she just...
He peers just, like,
he does to my mind. He those are

(48:36):
very small details of. Yeah. It's it's a
very surface level. And. And III don't I
I feel I feel like sometimes the editors
have to try to find a change and
I don't know that I agree that that's
that big of a deal here. I do
think the register changes is the biggest deal.
Yeah. And it's in for for the rewrite.
You know, 1 of the things they lost,
I didn't mention this before, but, you know,

(48:57):
he completely took out the the magic diamond
studs from who were worked to. Right. Yes.
Yeah of Gen off doesn't do that anymore.
Because, he just... He just does Fireworks.
And and also, in in the version that
we're used to bag end is the largest,
hobbit hole in all of Hobbit and the
surrounding lands.
But in the rewrite, it says,

(49:20):
Bun that was billable was father built for
her that's Bill on took. The most modi
hobbit hole that was to be found in
that part of the Shire. Always accepting the
vast and many tunnel dwelling of the tu.
So he's he's really pro took much more
in the in the in the rewrite, he
even talks about, mh more about the hooks
in a variety of other ways too.

(49:41):
So so there's a... There... You know, I
just I I find, you know, he's more
concern with Bilbo lineage
than he is and and and and telling
us more about the Turkish side.
Then than he is in the version that
we eventually
came to know.
Yeah. He gets rid of,

(50:02):
super
a lot. Mh. Right? He... Like, right there,
he
he got rid of,
what the... Was it the... What whatever the
phrase with the largest in all the shire?
Right. Yeah. It's no longer than?
Yeah. Let me let me read the the
bongo that was Bill father built the most
luxurious hobbit hole for her and partly with

(50:23):
her money. That's the aside and he takes
out the aside.
That was to be found either under the
hill or over the hill or across the
water, and there they remain to the end
of their days. So You just it's big
super. It's the biggest it's the most luxurious
that was to be found basically anywhere. And
so there's no exception for the took. Right.
It's just the it's the biggest. Right. And.

(50:45):
Yeah. Yeah. He also...
I I think this is AAA change like
that. He he says, originally when introducing Thor
and Thorn in the original hobbit.
He's called enormously important.
Instead of that. He now he says, he
has immense dignity.
Which is... Yes. Dora is a little more
serious.
Yes. Lauren also recognizes when Bilbo speed silly

(51:06):
when Bi us to here here at the
end of the chapter.
Get... In the in the version... We're familiar
with 19 66 version, Gandalf covers for him,
and then and and then they Thor a
little sarcastic at the end, But in this...
In the new version, Thor and Gandalf
laugh at Bilbo, When he does that. So
Thor in in in the note, Thor is

(51:27):
a can character. Thor also more property driven.
Yeah. And I think the the editor here
pointed that out when so credit him on
that, where he... He's much more concerned about
his... About the proper... The stuff. Yeah. And
and his his legacy and he even child
just Gandalf off for not giving him the
map earlier once he found it points out
it's 90 been 91 years. So which... So

(51:50):
anyway, that's... That there's just He's more of
a... And and what's interesting is,
I find that the Hobbit movies
captured that. The Hobbit movies
made...
Thor,
much more of a heroic epic figure, and
there other dwarves
less so. Mh.
In the movies, which And and I found

(52:12):
that to be more in line with Tolkien's
rewrite where Thor is more like a... He's
closer to Gandalf in terms of wisdom and
seriousness.
And and the other dwarves are still the
other dwarves.
I do like, the 2 things that talking
Rid of that are against super pro, 1
being,
let's see The way he describes Gandalf.
Eyebrows. Gandalf looked at him from under long,

(52:32):
bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the
Brim Shady hat.
They don't they no longer stick out. They
are now b.
Beneath the Brim of his hat. So so
that no... Don't speak out farther than his
hat. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's right. And
Bilbo pipe
No longer goes down to his... I think
he says his his bushy? What his well

(52:54):
curled toes
toes. He just gets rid of it. Right?
He... They nearly reached down... And the pipe
nearly reached down to his wool toes neatly
brushed. He just removed that. He's like, yeah,
pipes don't reach down to your toes. Generally
That'd be pretty tough. Imagine how hard to
be to, like... That. No. That's why a
church warden right there. You know. So anyway.
So there's... I mean you guys like, we
could probably go on for a long long

(53:14):
time going through all these changes. But you
can see, the biggest change is definitely... I
think the agree, Michael the tone. Right? The
tone is different. It's more state leads it's
less... Like charming, less playful.
It has less super.
There is more time spent
on making sure the details are right, So
the years make sure they have the instruments
like all that sort of stuff.

(53:35):
And
it...
I... I mean,
Tyler asked this, and we were gonna do
this in our extended podcast, but we'll just
do it here because I know you guys
are all running? Which do we prefer more
the 19
66 edition, 19 60 edition. Well, I will
probably say, a a combination of that and
getting rid of, some of the first person,
calls or second person calls I'm like, what

(53:56):
would you think about this here? I don't
like those. I do like the specificity of
the years and things like that, but I
hate how he's changing the pros. I think
he needed to keep the pros as much
the same as possible. So if you ask
me which 1 would I prefer right now
if if I got a whole book that
was in this style, or a whole book
that was in the 19 66
revision style, which was really more the 93

(54:18):
7 edition.
I'd go with that I don't like this
rewrite as much as I like the original.
I wonder I've never... III actually agree with
you. So so I I would say the
same. I wonder how much
the
the
fame of the Lord of the rings was
based upon the fame of the hobbit. I
just... I never looked into that. How did

(54:39):
he have a fan base prior to the
19 fifties? Did they... They... Were they looking
for it from him? Was he had he
promised? Something... Well, he did problem prompt. They
wanted a hobbit sequel in 19 38,
but it took it 14 years. Right. But
and then there's this little thing called World
war 2 that happens between. So I don't
know how much how much people held onto
to that. It's a different world back then.
This was not the social media world where

(55:01):
you have a fan base that just is
always pinging you. It's it's to finish your
your darn.
So that's... So I would imagine... I fire
books. So here's here's the way that I
imagine it is, like, he had an name,
and people knew who he was. A... You
know, the hobbit sold very well. I would
went through many, many different
prem makes sense.

(55:22):
The people who read it at 19 37
19 38 when the lot of the rings
got published say you read it at 10
years old. You're now 24, you're married, you
have your first kid.
That's something you're gonna think about, like, oh
I love the hobbit when I was a
child. Oh, he's raining... I wanna read this
now. So I'm sure there was some sort
of built in
recognition. Of this, and it hit at a...
Maybe it hit at a great time,

(55:43):
15 years after he published
the hobbit, for those who originally read the
hobbit and found it something that, you know,
was well loved, and so they they would...
They had that emotional resonance with the story
of the hobbit, and they wanted that emotional
resonance again. He always tried to refine. Right?
I've... It's been many, many decades, and I
still can't find that that

(56:04):
lord of the ring shaped hold in my
heart to be replaced by anything else, but
the lord of the rings. So... Because Yeah.
It's true. It's true. It's fascinating. I I
never... I... I've never been more clear about
the difference between them. And as I as
I am now. I always, I've I've seen
the hobbit as more a more child like
book.
When I've been reading it many times to
my children, But I've never been real clear
about the change in register.

(56:25):
And
and in the specificity, as I was
when going through the rewrite attempt, which... So
thank you. Kudos to you for bringing this
to our attention and getting us to to
talk about. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's...
It makes you... Like you said, it makes
you really think differently about the hobbit and
you realize how different it really is And
if if it was in that tone originally,

(56:46):
would I have enjoyed it as much when
I read it I was really on child
My my hero who's reading it with. But
he enjoyed it less if it was in
that tone probably.
Probably.
And so I'm glad he didn't finish it.
That's my takeaway. I'm glad he didn't finish
it. So, Tyler.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad he didn't
too.
Here's an interesting thought,

(57:06):
what would the world be like if he
had continued to and written the Lord of
the rings in the hobbit register.
Oh, man. What would that story be like?
I mean, obviously, you'd you have to change
some of the elements of that story, ring
race and and things like that are just
not in fell.
Well, fl can be, but a ring race,
I don't think that that and the whole
frodo turning into a ray thing.

(57:28):
And that's just... There's so many elements that
are just not... Wouldn't make it, but
they would... They could be more childish or
child like,
and that would be a fascinating.
That would be a fascinating Yeah see. I
mean, it would only be talking that could
do it, but it would be it be...
It would be interesting.
It's hard imagining what it would be like,
without actually seeing it for sort of, like,

(57:49):
reading the hobbit, Like, what, if you were
to read it and say, like, okay, if
I were to imagine this, in, like, the
total register of the lord of the rings
world would be like, it's very hard to
do without actually seeing it because we're not
the author. We don't we don't have that
in our head, so I don't... Boy I
don't know what that would be, like, Right.
But but you can see what... So you
can you can take a couple just real
briefly. You can take a couple of thing
of elements like compare the elves of R

(58:11):
in the hobbit. Which we're Talk about to
the elves of R
of the Lord of the rings.
Take the battle of the battle the the
battle of the 5 armies, and the b
of the description. I mean, literally, tolkien has
bill will just knocked out and there. Yeah.
Tell tell tells you about it versus because
for a child, like, the going through the

(58:31):
gory details of the battle I don't mean
literally Go sometimes. But but the...
You know, the... We just re reread the
battle of pell fields
to my old my kids,
and it was... It's it's brutal, man. It's
it's awesome too. It's it makes it, you
know, the theta speech before the charge of

(58:52):
the row here for the charge of the
re is is, like, brings a tear to
the eye. It's gorgeous.
Prose.
And so and and so stirring. And I
just... Don't think that the Hobbit can reach
that, in... In that style. That style just
isn't appropriate for it. And so your battles
would be like a paragraph or 2.
And your... And then there would be all
these funny elements thrown in.

(59:15):
I can't help but think 1 of the
funny things is
that is what some of the elements of
the of Tolkien's Hobbit movies feel like... I'm
not Tolkien's Jackson's. Hobbit movies feel like to
me. They feel like a childish mean they're
bad, but a childish
version of the Lord of the Rings world

(59:35):
brought more to life.
And it's bad. It's just not good.
He's he puts in all these childish elements,
everything from the poop on rad head to...
You know, the interactions, but, you know, between
the elves and and
and
dwarves and Andrew, that character from

(59:55):
oh, lake town and Yeah. Head I mean,
just all this
silliness.
Yeah. And the dwarves in the extended edition
bathing in the the fountains of R,
naked. Gosh. Yeah. Was the that was the
worst. Speaking of the hobbit then. Oh, go
go ahead. No no. That's that's. That's it.
I think okay. I think we're ending here.
We yeah. We gotta we gotta close it
down, and we don't wanna bore everybody. No.

(01:00:15):
I mean, No nobody listened to us. Who's
a fan of... Talking is gonna be bored
by anybody talking about talking. Right? Right? Right.
Right. Right. We're we're we're gonna go to
our extent addition, where we will talk about
the Hobbit movie a little bit more because
we're gonna
talk about 2 things.
Well, 1 we're gonna talk about what what
is a good thing that Peter Jackson changed
in the hobbit.
And number 2, what should tolkien have changed

(01:00:37):
in the 19 66
revision that he didn't change.
We're gonna talk about that.
And see if we can agree on what
that is and if we actually, find some
disagreement on what he should have changed.
Alright. So if you wanna get... You wanna
get that, go to the 1 dot com
slash member,
remember, become of sponsor, give a little bit
more, like Lynn and Rich.
And join our discord chat where we talk

(01:00:58):
about these things and we get those questions
to be asked directly like Tyler did about
whether we prefer, which write do we prefer.
So anyway, I'll also put a link down
to the history of the hobbit where you
can get this on on Amazon.
It's it's where... I mean, it's very depth
in...
Re read of the hobbit even the chapters
leading up to because there's so many notes.

(01:01:18):
It's a thousand paid about the hobbit and
remember the hobbit is only what 180,
depending on which copy you have.
So anyway, check that atlas Dot com. Slash
member.
You wanna check us out over there, guys.
We want you to join us,
Join us or die. No. Okay. We're moving
on. Guys. Free loader. Thank you.

(01:01:39):
Goodbye free loader.