Case Study: How Mountainview Christian Church, Gresham, Oregon, is rebooting their church with groups.

Mountainview Christian Church is a 53-year-old legacy church, which boomed in the 1990's, but has struggled ever since, even before COVID. Now as they emerge from COVID, Mountainview is launching groups in a big way. You can hear how Lead Pastor, Tom Santillanes, and Discipleship Pastor, Craig Ziese, are experiencing big results with small groups.

Episode Transcript

[allen_white] (00:11):
oh
m oh
oh

(00:33):
m
oh
m m

(01:00):
m

(04:34):
oh
oh
yah
yeah

(04:58):
oh
yes
oh oh

(05:19):
oh oh oh
oh
okay

(05:44):
a
yeah
yeah

(06:37):
yeah

(07:42):
oh

[craig] (07:50):
us

[allen_white] (07:54):
hey oh oh
can

[craig] (08:01):
be

[allen_white] (08:01):
you hear me

[craig] (08:03):
yes we can hear you

[allen_white] (08:05):
can i hear you i can hear you in a place i don't want to
hear you at uh

[craig] (08:09):
oh hey

[allen_white] (08:10):
uh so and in addition to this being the first

[craig] (08:15):
oh

[allen_white] (08:15):
instance where i recorded a pastor and a discipleship pastor on the same thing this
is also the first time i've used this riverside studio

[craig] (08:28):
i wondered

[allen_white] (08:29):
so

[craig] (08:29):
what this was so like this

[allen_white] (08:31):
this could be fun it's supposed to give us it'll break up are

[craig] (08:35):
at

[allen_white] (08:36):
our audio into separate channels

[craig] (08:38):
oh

[allen_white] (08:39):
and which is good um but then it'll

[craig] (08:45):
m

[allen_white] (08:48):
give me a problem right now

[craig] (08:50):
yeah

[allen_white] (08:51):
okay i'm gonna

[craig] (08:53):
oh

[allen_white] (08:54):
yeah

[craig] (08:55):
oh

[allen_white] (08:55):
i'm gonna disappear for a second and then i'll come right back it should keep
you in the room

[craig] (08:59):
okay

[allen_white] (08:59):
so fingers crossed

[craig] (09:01):
all right here we go

[allen_white] (09:03):
you like being guinea pigs right

[craig] (09:04):
i love trasinplaysin

[allen_white] (09:05):
love

[craig] (09:06):
a trakluely
you died i saw the new seek today one jumped in to save somebody so
it was they were over she got to the shore he died i was wondering

(09:26):
that's what they were doing then they're just canvas trying to find she was flailing
she's like i'll go sooner never came up there along their way right there the
dock right by the r was packed in air court way had tons of cars
and there there wasn't very much beach at all

(09:47):
oh i told you almost want to day and do that a couple of years
ago yeah
sons floating away from the back about jumps in with like jack and goes to

(10:07):
like right so now we have two of you with that's why you should anyway
yes so now we have two people to rest basic first eight is last resort
our last resort is june

(10:31):
oh yeah
yeah it makes sense the last words came out was yelled into a lower cause
i on anchored you that's right tell story he stayed anchored up and jumped out

(10:52):
of the back and like dude threw right i told kid put your stuff away
here we go can we pick them up tonight i do remember self stupid stupid
simon could have watched you die right in front of that is tom i don't

(11:14):
know how many times i've read it's an are somebody's panicked and flailing somebody jumps
in and the victim it's out in an alternate way and the person that jumped
in to save died
don't chip in the water

(11:43):
m
oh yeah
shoot forgot turn like trying to text me

(12:21):
yeah yeah yeah
oh
m

(12:45):
oh
he restarted computer back on it in a second so i wonder if we should
i think what i want to do shut down

(13:10):
all to sleep eh
yea my son gets on my land top dead could we have so many times
over bad because i'm working

(13:33):
i go to my email once an hour

[allen_white] (13:37):
oh stuff is happening

[craig] (13:39):
hey there we are

[allen_white] (13:41):
good stuff is happening

[craig] (13:42):
oh

[allen_white] (13:43):
all right

[craig] (13:44):
a we

[allen_white] (13:46):
all right so

[craig] (13:46):
m

[allen_white] (13:47):
you guys i can see like your your shoulders

[craig] (13:51):
well

[allen_white] (13:51):
oh

[craig] (13:51):
the

[allen_white] (13:54):
i can see a little more of you that way now the good news is
we're not going to use the video

[craig] (13:59):
that's what i thought

[allen_white] (14:01):
we're just trying to not interrupt each other

[craig] (14:03):
right

[allen_white] (14:05):
which i will warn you occasionally you know i will talk over somebody

[craig] (14:10):
m

[allen_white] (14:10):
and if you're you know saying something poignant and then all of a sudden i
start blabbing we may stop and i'll just say hey go back and say that
again and this time i'll shut up

[craig] (14:21):
we

[allen_white] (14:22):
so okay that works so the way this will go is before the interview starts
on the podcast all do

[craig] (14:35):
m

[allen_white] (14:36):
you know my generic podcast

[craig] (14:38):
yeah

[allen_white] (14:38):
intro i don't have any music or anything it's just you know it is what
it is and then i'll make an introduction of the two of you um and
then so when when this part starts it's just going to start with hey tom
craig welcome to the podcast and so we have worry about all this time before
i will need you guys just to send me

[craig] (14:58):
yeah

[allen_white] (14:59):
a short bio and a picture

[craig] (15:03):
yeah ah

[allen_white] (15:04):
and we'll figure out how to get both of you on the thing

[craig] (15:08):
m

[allen_white] (15:09):
but you know if we have to cut somebody i'm sorry crag you

[craig] (15:12):
hand

[allen_white] (15:12):
have to go

[craig] (15:12):
out always i put his name

[allen_white] (15:16):
so

[craig] (15:16):
as the guest

[allen_white] (15:18):
yeah so that's all right yeah so if you guys can send that to me
then i'll get it all set up and then tom i should know this i
should have it marise i should have a tattoo

[craig] (15:32):
oh

[allen_white] (15:33):
but what is the correct pronunciation of your last name

[craig] (15:36):
it could be anything you wanted to be no it's the actual call i'm tom
santalinis

[allen_white] (15:44):
santalinas

[craig] (15:44):
samtelinis

[allen_white] (15:44):
there you go

[craig] (15:45):
that will work it works

[allen_white] (15:47):
because i was going to turn the double l into a why

[craig] (15:50):
technically

[allen_white] (15:50):
and

[craig] (15:50):
that's what it is in santianas

[allen_white] (15:53):
there you go

[craig] (15:54):
but people that ends up being worse than the others

[allen_white] (16:00):
santalinas

[craig] (16:01):
oh

[allen_white] (16:01):
there we go well it's like there's a mexican restaurant that you're in town that's
commonly pronounced l gallo because if you didn't it would be pronounced l geo

[craig] (16:10):
oh right yeah

[allen_white] (16:12):
eh

[craig] (16:13):
oh

[allen_white] (16:13):
eh and you know that leads to whole other issues so all

[craig] (16:18):
it's

[allen_white] (16:18):
right

[craig] (16:19):
much

[allen_white] (16:19):
do you guys

[craig] (16:19):
corn

[allen_white] (16:19):
have any questions

[craig] (16:20):
is that it is in oregon

[allen_white] (16:23):
well kansas has its own thing because we are the home town of not only
allen white but also of the west borough baptist church

[craig] (16:32):
yes you are yes you are

[allen_white] (16:36):
so in fact there's a christian church pastor from lincoln christian church in lincoln illinois
stopped by a guy named brandon boyd they were headed out to colorado she was
in town yesterday called me and we walked into starbuck which was very very decorated
for pride but and i said our starbuck i whispered our starbuck is usually not

(16:57):
this gay but this is the home town of the west boro baptist church which
caleb colden box talks about in his book

[craig] (17:04):
yes

[allen_white] (17:06):
um anyway we're not proud of that in fact i used to be before they
started work in some road work here i would drive by their compound for the
west bro baptist church when i was leaving my office and i would pray for
him and and days that i had my sun roof open i would pray for

(17:27):
them loudly

[craig] (17:27):
ah they have visited here

[allen_white] (17:31):
oh have they really wow how did

[craig] (17:35):
a

[allen_white] (17:35):
they

[craig] (17:35):
little

[allen_white] (17:35):
find

[craig] (17:35):
contingency

[allen_white] (17:35):
their way all the way out

[craig] (17:36):
of

[allen_white] (17:36):
there

[craig] (17:36):
them ah

[allen_white] (17:39):
wow

[craig] (17:40):
yeah

[allen_white] (17:41):
that's amazing

[craig] (17:43):
we were not on their positive list but they have sated

[allen_white] (17:47):
oh

[craig] (17:47):
here

[allen_white] (17:49):
yeah they protest in the park across the street from our church and our church
is like all of fifty people but it's on the main you know street in
topeka and

[craig] (18:00):
okay

[allen_white] (18:00):
i just i don't know i just shake my head

[craig] (18:02):
yeah yeah

[allen_white] (18:04):
so what do you do t's it's quite a legacy we got going into pica
here all right any questions about what do in

[craig] (18:14):
i'm good

[allen_white] (18:16):
all right any anything any questions i sent over that you don't want to talk
about

[craig] (18:24):
now we've talked about most of those questions often in various

[allen_white] (18:31):
m

[craig] (18:31):
settings
oh

[allen_white] (18:35):
all right the spirit of this is that you know as much as people have
you know they'll say oh my church is you know such and such an age
we would never be able to do that or oh my church was in the
lock downs for so long you've got a lot of those guys topped

[craig] (18:53):
yeah

[allen_white] (18:54):
then for you to come around and say this worked so

[craig] (18:59):
it's true it's true

[allen_white] (19:01):
i'm not looking for endorsement i'm just looking to tell your story because i think
this will give a lot of places um hope because a lot of you know
a lot of people just pastors don't know what to do right now and so
we want to kind of say hey here's some things you know that barely post
pandemic for you guys here are some things that worked and this was the result

(19:24):
and this is how worked connecting people that are outside of our church this is
how we have more leaders than we've ever had

[craig] (19:28):
m

[allen_white] (19:29):
um and we'll talk about the team we'll talk about the whole bit so

[craig] (19:33):
great

[allen_white] (19:35):
ah and so i don't know with you guys have you kind of decided who's
going to answer what questions or have you thought about that

[craig] (19:43):
no we've not talked about it i've decided but that's because tom is really nervous
and he normally

[allen_white] (19:49):
m

[craig] (19:50):
is pretty talkative but i can already tell he's pretty quiet

[allen_white] (19:53):
oh

[craig] (19:55):
so i figured the first couple of questions for sure probably more in my realm
and then where it gets down into the specifics of the

[allen_white] (20:03):
yes

[craig] (20:03):
groups

[allen_white] (20:05):
oh

[craig] (20:05):
really that's crags and he really intimately knows our process

[allen_white] (20:10):
okay

[craig] (20:11):
and

[allen_white] (20:11):
and if there's

[craig] (20:12):
part of what you're looking for is you know this doesn't work without the lead
pastor's

[allen_white] (20:16):
oh

[craig] (20:16):
support

[allen_white] (20:18):
that's true

[craig] (20:18):
and so

[allen_white] (20:19):
it

[craig] (20:19):
i'm

[allen_white] (20:19):
doesn't

[craig] (20:19):
happy to chime in and even even say you know craig was was our guy
to lead this initiative but he couldn't have done it you know without without my
support without me jumping in without me having some moments where craig crag had to
lead me and say you've got to do this you got to do this you
got to do this and we have that reality that relationship and worked

[allen_white] (20:44):
that's good that's good and obviously you guys had a big success as a result
of you know all of this

[craig] (20:50):
i

[allen_white] (20:51):
so good all right well let's get started i mean and and just time for
the sake of pers active my podcast has literally dozens and dozens of listeners

[craig] (21:03):
yeah hey i get it

[allen_white] (21:07):
right so

[craig] (21:08):
we

[allen_white] (21:08):
it's not like you know five thousand people

[craig] (21:11):
i don't know

[allen_white] (21:11):
or something

[craig] (21:11):
it could change

[allen_white] (21:12):
but

[craig] (21:12):
because of us

[allen_white] (21:14):
well

[craig] (21:14):
yeah

[allen_white] (21:14):
that's that's what i'm counting

[craig] (21:16):
yeah

[allen_white] (21:16):
on so if you're feeling nervous at all

[craig] (21:18):
on

[allen_white] (21:19):
this

[craig] (21:19):
go

[allen_white] (21:19):
is he this is the pressure

[craig] (21:23):
yeah

[allen_white] (21:24):
all right all right let's get start and so i'll just welcome you and then
say something back and then we'll we'll get going but just you know just i
interviewed larry osborn for last month's podcast and i was kind of just interviewing him
for a book that i'm writing and i said so part of this is an
interview for the book and part of it's the interview for the podcast and we

(21:45):
just talked and then i had to go back the conversation and i had to
figure out okay wait what should i put in the podcast what do i not
put in the podcast because it wasn't very it was just kind of free flowing
i was fine

[craig] (21:59):
ye

[allen_white] (22:00):
um and then then people got mad at me because i said the church should
be should be political switsorlind so if you want to get mad at me for
that go ahead everybody else has already done that this

[craig] (22:09):
oh

[allen_white] (22:09):
week right anyway all right let's go all right tom and crag welcome to the
podcast

[craig] (22:17):
good to be with you hey allan glad to be with you

[allen_white] (22:21):
good to have you hey you guys are at mountain view christian church in gresham
oregon

[craig] (22:26):
m

[allen_white] (22:27):
for those of you who aren't aware gresham is not portland did i get that
right

[craig] (22:31):
it is correct

[allen_white] (22:33):
so tell us about mountain view christian church how long has it been around and
kind of how long have you been there and tell me what's going on

[craig] (22:42):
well i'll start out there mount christian church was planted in nineteen sixty nine as
a church plant from another church east portland there was a lot of growth potential
and gresham and so they intentionally planted us out here and in the fall of
nineteen six lance or over fifty years old we were a prominent been suburbian community

(23:09):
for years and years and years until until that moved further south east from us
and really we are demographics have just drastically changed and so a church

[allen_white] (23:22):
yeah

[craig] (23:23):
that was vibrant with young families and pretty much upper middle class people has drastically
changed and we've become more urban in nature with the local elementary school represents over
thirty languages we have multiple amilies dwelling in one home together in our community and

(23:46):
really mountain view went for being a community based church to be in a commuter
church and so that's really that's really who we are that's how long we've been
around for me i've been on staff since two thousand three came out as an
associate youth pastor worked as a as a youth and children's pastor and then became

(24:08):
the lead pastor in two thousand thirteen so almost nine years i've been serving as
the lead pastor here

[allen_white] (24:16):
you you've seen quite a bit of change now i know crag's been on staff
since nineteen sixty nine

[craig] (24:23):
yeah

[allen_white] (24:24):
oh

[craig] (24:26):
seems like that some days so i came

[allen_white] (24:28):
oh

[craig] (24:28):
in june of ninety nine so i've just eclipsed twenty three years

[allen_white] (24:36):
very good and what changes have you seen over those twenty three years crag other
than senior pastors

[craig] (24:42):
yeah i've raised

[allen_white] (24:43):
yeah

[craig] (24:44):
up a lot of senor pastors and that amount of time

[allen_white] (24:49):
careful he's sitting right next to you

[craig] (24:51):
yes he has
gresham

[allen_white] (24:57):
m

[craig] (24:58):
exploded in about twenty years and literally went from strawberry fields to the bedroom community
of portland and i came in really on the back end of that so in
the early two thousand gresham was a commune you're struggling with an identity

[allen_white] (25:15):
m

[craig] (25:16):
because we were really they grew up as homes and so there still isn't a
central business community

[allen_white] (25:25):
m

[craig] (25:26):
really an identity in our commune ah for people to gather around and so that
has been a struggle in our city and we've had some of that struggle here
in the church as well and i've rolled through several positions here and landed at

(25:46):
the time tom came on this lead pastor and moving towards this small groups discipleship
kind of role her mount

[allen_white] (25:56):
yeah that's good that's that's very good now let's talk about you guys are in
oregon and obviously the pacific northwest as well as a few other places in the
united

[craig] (26:05):
oh

[allen_white] (26:05):
states um you had a lot of covid trictions that lasted for a very long
time i remember the first time i came out to see you guys i went
got a sandwich in an outdoor restaurant everybody was outdoors there was no front to
the restaurant i had forgot i put my mask in my pocket and somebody yelled

(26:26):
at me sir would you put on your mask please and i'm thinking we're outside
but it was a restaurant and there was a mask mandate and so you guys
saw that a great deal more of it a lot of places um so what
impact did all of these restrictions have on you guys nd how are you able
to do you know ministry through all of that

[craig] (26:47):
it was challenging um we as far as portland metro area churches we are certainly
a year to and even sixteen months behind a lot

[allen_white] (27:00):
m

[craig] (27:00):
of the country so we shut down in twenty twenty pretty hard april twenty twenty
and no church we already

[allen_white] (27:10):
yeah

[craig] (27:10):
had life stream available so we leverage to our full capacity we didn't have to
pivot too much with that because we were already providing it

[allen_white] (27:20):
oh

[craig] (27:21):
but we certainly had a government structure that couldn't make make decisive decisions very quickly
and if if they were decisions

[allen_white] (27:31):
oh

[craig] (27:32):
we began

[allen_white] (27:32):
yeah

[craig] (27:32):
planning you would expect that it's going to change and so really we remained closed
for when i say closed i hope we all understand that the church isn't closed
but you know we weren't having our gatherings for well over a year um and
then and then even when we were able to gather there were a lot of
restrictions six feet per person spread out masks handsanitizing stations on so everything we had

(28:02):
to pivot everything else in our gatherings as far as passing communion plates and offering
bags

[allen_white] (28:07):
m

[craig] (28:07):
and all of that we just had

[allen_white] (28:10):
yeah

[craig] (28:10):
to pivot our gatherings pret pretty substantially and it really wasn't until this past march
so we're talking just a few months ago that the masks restrictions were actually lifted
and people began returning to lie as as we knew it in some former fashion
and

[allen_white] (28:29):
yeah

[craig] (28:29):
so we we managed through almost two years it was almost two long years of
constant changing guide lines restrictions the amount of people who could come what it did
to our people is that it created a fear factor in a lot of ways

[allen_white] (28:44):
oh

[craig] (28:45):
people were fearful

[allen_white] (28:46):
h

[craig] (28:47):
of the gathering

[allen_white] (28:48):
m

[craig] (28:48):
certainly

[allen_white] (28:49):
you too

[craig] (28:49):
things that we saw on

[allen_white] (28:50):
i

[craig] (28:50):
the

[allen_white] (28:51):
mean

[craig] (28:51):
news

[allen_white] (28:51):
lad

[craig] (28:51):
media about churches and all that stuff just heightens some

[allen_white] (28:54):
a

[craig] (28:54):
of that sensitivity to it

[allen_white] (28:57):
i think you

[craig] (28:57):
and so you know we managed as best we could what i would say

[allen_white] (29:01):
yeah

[craig] (29:02):
is the best thing for us i'm incredibly thankful we were already really working hard
on our groups ministry getting people into grow groups that's what we call them grow
groups getting

[allen_white] (29:14):
yeah

[craig] (29:14):
them into small groups because our grow groups didn't miss a beat they started zoom
they met outside in big circles they were doing all sorts of things and if
it wasn't for our groups i'm not sure that our church would have been able
to serve but the level it has

[allen_white] (29:34):
yeah that's it's amazing it's really amazing how what you guys had to go through
and yet you know because of groups because of your online service you guys were
what prepared in a lot of ways i mean as well prepared as you could
be and it wasn't like anybody knew in advance so good all right

[craig] (29:53):
two weeks

[allen_white] (29:54):
just a second my my thing is telling me my browser is limiting the storage
available anyway we're going to keep going and if we have a problem then we'll
figure

[craig] (30:05):
m

[allen_white] (30:05):
it out again this the new thing using the using this okay so i'll edit
that part

[craig] (30:14):
m

[allen_white] (30:14):
out

[craig] (30:15):
m

[allen_white] (30:16):
all right so crag you reached out to me a little more than a year
ago and you were interested in putting some concerted effort into your

[craig] (30:25):
m

[allen_white] (30:26):
groups what was going on at the time and what were you guys hoping to
change

[craig] (30:31):
yeah so we have for five years really desired to move towards being a church
of groups not just a church with groups and like tom said we had been
down a track for a season and we were a bible study based small group
church

[allen_white] (30:52):
oh

[craig] (30:52):
and so groups got people got together for the purpose of bible study not necessarily
for the purpose of a lot of the other healthy things that happen

[allen_white] (30:59):
oh

[craig] (30:59):
when you make the change to becoming a group which is white changed the name
to grow group and that was an intentional part of that movement but an nose
to me we hit the wall that i found out as i did more and
more research and we talked that we hit him and unless we've made some drastic
changes we were not going to get to our goal uh in the middle of

(31:21):
that

[allen_white] (31:22):
yeah

[craig] (31:22):
covid arrived and we went to zoom we went outside we measured every room in
our building to see what the square footage was to see where our groups could
meet according to the mandate the state had put out and so

[allen_white] (31:35):
m

[craig] (31:35):
literally i had people now measuring a square footage and telling us we know how
many people could go in this room and so we did everything that we could
in order to help groups succeed that were currently there and then it was our
two weeks turned into two months turned into a whole lot other things and i

(31:56):
realized we are not going to in any short time frame recruit any new leaders
and grow many new groups the way that we are currently doing it uh

[allen_white] (32:07):
m

[craig] (32:07):
and so i kind of went back to school on my own and i read
double digit numbers of books on small groups that summer and

[allen_white] (32:20):
m

[craig] (32:20):
really landed on what you had written and exponential groups and thought you know what
i'm gonna make a call and

[allen_white] (32:29):
m

[craig] (32:29):
talk to allen about experience and here we are

[allen_white] (32:34):
here we are now you mentioned at one point hitting a wall what do you
mean by hitting a

[craig] (32:38):
yeah

[allen_white] (32:39):
wall with your groups

[craig] (32:40):
yeah we got to a certain number of groups and our process for developing leaders
and recruiting people to fill groups feels like it just masked out and we

[allen_white] (32:53):
so

[craig] (32:53):
weren't getting anywhere

[allen_white] (32:55):
okay

[craig] (32:55):
you know i would have been as old as moses if we d have kept
the same process to get any more more groups going

[allen_white] (33:01):
about how many groups did you have at that point

[craig] (33:03):
so we were we had about twenty five solid groups at that point

[allen_white] (33:10):
and what was the weekend attendance giver take

[craig] (33:13):
so prepandemic five hundred

[allen_white] (33:16):
okay so i mean it's a very common place we've talked about this is a
very common place for church to kind of get stuck or hit a wall so
you you read my book and no got thoroughly confused and then you called me
and i'm kidding but you decided to try some things because i mean i wrote

(33:36):
the book out of you know finding some things after my own frustration and hitting

[craig] (33:40):
m

[allen_white] (33:40):
a wall so i think that's what you know connected with us so you decided
to do an alignment series that you launched in the new year this year tell
us a little bit about the alignment sere is why you chose the topic you
did either of you could speak to that

[craig] (33:58):
yeah i kind of led the charge in that and picked monsters in the closet
because i wanted to do something that would engage our community and so all that
time talked us a little bit about beginning to understand what

[allen_white] (34:16):
oh

[craig] (34:16):
was going on spiritually in our commun and about the same time that i was
going through this we got to do something different with small group outreach

[allen_white] (34:25):
yeah

[craig] (34:25):
i think one of the things that it's important to mention is we had twenty
five groups and we have a lot of great people in those groups and a
lot of great potential

[allen_white] (34:35):
hm

[craig] (34:35):
leaders but when we use the phrase multiply it was like a danger word it
was like immediately we were ghosted right because the reality is they're doing life together
some of these groups have been together a few of them a handful of them
have been together for thirty years and when we start talking about multiply they hear

(34:56):
split and they hear and they couldn't a lot of our great people couldn't get
beyond that as as just it was a hurdle yeah that's really good it was
a hurdle for him and so that was part of where craig sat down and
he and i had talked what does the future of groups look like and he
really created a four step process and we had to come to the reality of

(35:18):
where we were at and we were kind of in between that second

[allen_white] (35:20):
oh

[craig] (35:20):
and third process we have a dream down the future

[allen_white] (35:24):
m

[craig] (35:24):
but we had to figure out

[allen_white] (35:26):
hm

[craig] (35:26):
specifically how do we how do we recruit how do we help people empower people
how do we break out of some of the rigidness that we've had as far
as expectations to just get people to facilitate a group and and i think allen
that's where exponential groups and you and some of the training that really helped us

(35:48):
significantly part of what you commented i remember our first visit no hey leave the
groups that are established leave them alone

[allen_white] (35:57):
that's right

[craig] (35:57):
and that was refreshing for us because we were feeling it and we were feeling
this rub at the same time and so some of the tools you provided some
of the things that you did really gave us the freedom to great we'll leave
those groups and not to get too far ahead but we said to those groups
you can do what you want to do keep keep going down the journey you're
going and suddenly not to create the spoiler alert but then those groups are coming

(36:22):
to us hey we wanted to do that and so you know that was really
what was part of driving us towards we need some help here we just need
some guidance

[allen_white] (36:34):
yeah

[craig] (36:34):
we need some direction and so that was one go ahead

[allen_white] (36:40):
i was just going to say what would your fear have been if i had
come in and said oh yeah you need to scrap all of those groups that
you have and they all need to do this new thing how would that have

[craig] (36:50):
we wouldn't

[allen_white] (36:51):
felt

[craig] (36:51):
have signed your contract that as been

[allen_white] (36:55):
so what

[craig] (36:56):
no dog yeah

[allen_white] (36:57):
so what would the monster in the fat closet have been

[craig] (37:01):
uh fear of the unknown like i said at the

[allen_white] (37:06):
yeah

[craig] (37:06):
beginning our community has changed so much um m we don't know how to reach
people in our community and so the idea of reaching more people a lot of
those people just couldn't see it

[allen_white] (37:23):
m

[craig] (37:23):
they just couldn't see it and so the fear was you're taking us somewhere we've
never been taking us somewhere that we're actually skeptics

[allen_white] (37:31):
yeah

[craig] (37:31):
you will actually be able to do anyway taking

[allen_white] (37:35):
hm

[craig] (37:35):
as some place that really is creating some comfort issues for me and we needed
to listen to that so we did and you know you helped with a survey
you helped give

[allen_white] (37:48):
yeah

[craig] (37:48):
us some insight and part of what you said is leave those

[allen_white] (37:52):
what

[craig] (37:52):
groups alone there are people in your church who can help you yet goals achieved
without messing with any of those and that was a huge breather for us so
yeah and on the other side

[allen_white] (38:06):
yeah

[craig] (38:06):
of that our community was very clearly saying we are interested and spiritual conversations so
tom had a conversation with a local church guy we have a connection with a
with expand northwest it's a church planting organization here in portland and he just gave
us to die graphic and he just said listen

[allen_white] (38:23):
oh

[craig] (38:23):
in gresham a city of a hundred and ten thousand there's seventy seven thousand

[allen_white] (38:27):
oh

[craig] (38:27):
people who have said we're unaffiliated with any

[allen_white] (38:30):
m

[craig] (38:31):
any religion any any faith at all and we said

[allen_white] (38:35):
wow

[craig] (38:36):
man well you talk about the harvest being plentiful the workers being few that that
struck accord for us and and nine out of ten of them won't come to
our church with an invitation you just won't attend

[allen_white] (38:52):
m

[craig] (38:53):
but seven out of ten will engage in a spiritual conversation so this is what
sort of drove us to monsters in the closet is that was kind of our
r filter this this has to allow for us to have spiritual conversations with people
who will never be interested in an invitation to attend our church so we

[allen_white] (39:18):
h

[craig] (39:18):
focused

[allen_white] (39:19):
m

[craig] (39:19):
on some mental health things with monsters in the closet

[allen_white] (39:22):
oh

[craig] (39:23):
anxiety and fear and an the groups that participated in that who reached people invited
people into their homes who weren't part of a church who weren't engaged in church
at all whoa they were open to the spiritual conversation s yeah

[allen_white] (39:45):
so so the attractional piece of you know everybody come like they did back in
the nineties that wasn't working

[craig] (39:52):
no help

[allen_white] (39:52):
but the idea of come to my house and let's talk about something that's concerning
to you concerning to me and let's see what the bible has to say that
that worked now you guys actually created your own small group corriculum uh for this
assignment tell us about that

[craig] (40:08):
we did so we put together a team after our pastoral staff had determined the
topics and so we put together

[allen_white] (40:18):
oh

[craig] (40:18):
a team of volunteers for

[allen_white] (40:19):
oh

[craig] (40:19):
a church and said here it is go to town gave them some examples of
what we might want it to look like and really turn it over to some

[allen_white] (40:31):
oh

[craig] (40:32):
folks unbeknown to us at the time

[allen_white] (40:34):
yeah

[craig] (40:35):
o had connections there of their own to people who write coriculum and range and
produce criculum and so you

[allen_white] (40:44):
m

[craig] (40:44):
know we we bathed this thing in prayer early on and god just continued to
open door after door after door larsually unnoticed to us till after the fact and
so you know we learned you know you learn all these lessons along the way
that you don't know that you're going to learn as you go but you're willing

[allen_white] (41:07):
hm

[craig] (41:07):
to take a look and see

[allen_white] (41:09):
oh

[craig] (41:09):
and so we a team of volunteers put together one of the best steady guides
i have had the opportunity to lead a group through

[allen_white] (41:20):
yeah

[craig] (41:21):
as a

[allen_white] (41:21):
m

[craig] (41:21):
small group pastor they did a rock star job and it was beautiful

[allen_white] (41:27):
m

[craig] (41:28):
it was beautiful to use it was beautiful to watch to

[allen_white] (41:31):
oh

[craig] (41:31):
them come to a complete project and draw a line under and be able to
say who did it to hear really positive feedback from our church um and and
to see even

[allen_white] (41:46):
m

[craig] (41:46):
our current groups jump in and say well and you know tom alluded to that
earlier we we we spent

[allen_white] (41:52):
m

[craig] (41:52):
it was it was

[allen_white] (41:53):
oh

[craig] (41:53):
six months process from the time i handed them

[allen_white] (41:55):
m

[craig] (41:55):
until we produced the end so it was six months

[allen_white] (41:59):
m

[craig] (41:59):
of writing and rewriting and you had given me a book a small little book
on how to ask good questions i gave copies of all

[allen_white] (42:07):
hm

[craig] (42:07):
that little book to all those folks they read it i can tell they read
it because of the questions that they put into the criculum and then we got
to the end result some of our small groups long standing small groups started read
through it and said hey

[allen_white] (42:26):
okay

[craig] (42:27):
we want to do this how can we weren't invited to do this so we
went back through the sneak peak talk with him again and said you're always welcome
to do this our target is and work through the whole thing and yet god
too had a work to do and our current groups to help them with some

(42:49):
of the same things that we knew our community wanted to engage in scrirtualing

[allen_white] (42:54):
that's very cool i remember back in the day when i first did this and
our established groups we were going so fast we didn't even invite our established groups
to be a part of it and so some of us trust came to me
and they said hey can we do this or is this only for new groups
and i said you know well what's it worth to you and i'm such a

(43:16):
compassionate

[craig] (43:16):
uh

[allen_white] (43:17):
aster

[craig] (43:17):
h

[allen_white] (43:17):
right so you is created this cricket and if i remember right this was largely
a volunteer team

[craig] (43:23):
yes yes it was

[allen_white] (43:26):
so

[craig] (43:26):
my

[allen_white] (43:26):
so they gave it so this wasn't go and you know get all the staff
members on this this was mostly a volunteer team so then you recruited leaders and
connected people into groups but you did this a little differently and i believe tom
was kind of a leading voice in doing that if i'm not wrong

[craig] (43:44):
no tom was one of the things that we learned through expenental groups is the
person who has to really champion groups as your senior

[allen_white] (43:54):
yeah

[craig] (43:54):
pastor and it was kind of funny so so we did this in january because
in the rhythm of our community we really see our church greatest church attendants from
christmas to easter

[allen_white] (44:09):
oh

[craig] (44:09):
and so we decided to do our alignment series when our folks gather in the
greatest numbers which is in the winter time and so i have

[allen_white] (44:18):
hm

[craig] (44:19):
written a kind of an introductory for tom to share as he for the first
week recruited uh folks to host and we shared that with you just kind of
to take a peek at it and you came back and said

[allen_white] (44:35):
m

[craig] (44:35):
you scared me

[allen_white] (44:37):
oh

[craig] (44:39):
that was on me tom was just reading and doing what i wrote

[allen_white] (44:42):
h

[craig] (44:42):
him and i went back and like oh shoot i got to go back to
the drawing board so it was all crags

[allen_white] (44:49):
you guys you guys are becoming the monsters

[craig] (44:51):
you

[allen_white] (44:51):
in the

[craig] (44:51):
were

[allen_white] (44:51):
closet

[craig] (44:52):
the monsters

[allen_white] (44:53):
you're freaking them

[craig] (44:54):
i

[allen_white] (44:54):
out

[craig] (44:54):
dare

[allen_white] (44:54):
i think

[craig] (44:54):
because

[allen_white] (44:55):
that's

[craig] (44:55):
you're

[allen_white] (44:55):
what i said

[craig] (44:59):
so

[allen_white] (45:00):
but

[craig] (45:00):
so so so we

[allen_white] (45:02):
but

[craig] (45:02):
rewrote

[allen_white] (45:02):
you pivoted we did that during the pandemic

[craig] (45:04):
did a much more positive approach

[allen_white] (45:06):
a

[craig] (45:06):
and so for three weeks time it up and encouraged people to

[allen_white] (45:11):
h

[craig] (45:11):
ostagrup

[allen_white] (45:12):
h oh

[craig] (45:13):
on a sunday morning and they did yeah

[allen_white] (45:18):
let's talk about the result of that how many groups did you gain how many
and then talk about the people who joined these groups

[craig] (45:24):
yeah so we ended up with twelve new groups which in twenty three years we've
we come close to having twelve groups any one single time let alone any year

[allen_white] (45:36):
hm

[craig] (45:36):
start um m and eight of those groups finished the six weeks series and we've
had five of those groups continue on this spring and those

[allen_white] (45:51):
that's

[craig] (45:51):
groups

[allen_white] (45:51):
great

[craig] (45:51):
have reached unchurched relatives neighbors business associates friends um m it's been amazing

[allen_white] (46:07):
and so from what you were saying before and these weren't necessarily people that were
out of the established groups they were still meeting but these were folks that maybe
had never led a group

[craig] (46:20):
most of these folks had never led a group before our one pre requisite was
do you have eight to twelve friends co workers or family who can participate with
you and join you in a group and if that's the case you're qualified to
facilitate will help you

(46:44):
my it's all good
so we i'll pause here for a second so you have a pause
yeah

(47:10):
so we just simply said to our church if you have anywhere from eight to
twelve friends co workers neighbors anybody that you could invite to participate group with you
then you're qualified to be a facilitator and we're going to help you we're going
to give you a guide you're going to get coaching from crag and some other

(47:30):
coaches every single week to prepare you and i think that was the first time
for a lot of people who went oh i might be able to do this
we had to arrange we had a couple of groups that one guy particularly i
think of had four neighbors and he met with them and he was doing a
really good job until they started asking him a bunch of questions about faith and

(47:55):
he was like you know but we had coco
yeah
that's okay you want us to log out also

(48:20):
okay i'll do that very good

[allen_white] (48:59):
okay i'm back

[craig] (49:02):
we're back

[allen_white] (49:03):
now i have two crags

[craig] (49:05):
oh well

[allen_white] (49:08):
i don't know i keep telling me i have low browser storage

[craig] (49:11):
h

[allen_white] (49:13):
i don't know what's going

[craig] (49:13):
m

[allen_white] (49:14):
on okay well let's well we'll finish and then we'll go from there yeah crag
your other crag is coming in so anyway all right so o i'm sorry let's
start again with what you were just sharing yeah

[craig] (49:33):
so we simply invited people

[allen_white] (49:36):
yeah

[craig] (49:36):
if you had eight to twelve friends neighbors co workers to join you in dealing
with some of these monsters then you're qualified to facilitate it o and people suddenly
thought i do have people i would love to engage spiritual conversation s with and
they felt qualified to be a facilitator and we promise we'll coach you will help

(50:00):
you there's some coaches that craig was working with and craig sentine i think every
week out to these coaches and encourage them asked them for feedback and it was
a beautiful thing for those weeks as a matter of fact we had one guy
his name i want tell you but he asked his neighbors he said hey i'd
like to do this group and they said yes they scratch the surface with what

(50:24):
we provided and sudden they started asking a bunch of other deep spiritual questions he
said

[allen_white] (50:29):
yeah

[craig] (50:29):
i'm out i'm unqualified for this but he did it he tried it and he
said we won't continue on but were open the door for spiritual conversations

[allen_white] (50:41):
that's fantastic that's so fantastic so let me ask you that's just the last question
what what's next for mountain view where you guys headed in the next season or
with groups or a church we what's kind of percolating up for you

[craig] (50:58):
yeah so at least as far as groups goes what's next is we have been
able to with the addition of an alignment series really for the first time have
several ways to help connect people to groups we have a jump on host opportunity
and an alignment series we have some solid training for folks that come that have

(51:23):
led a group in the past but never a mountain view just to help them
understand what what we expect of groups and group leaders and then we have a
brorupis fair in the fall that helps connect folks that are here and ready to
liking plug and play they've come to mountain view they've had small group of experience

(51:44):
in the past they just are ready to jump in and they don't want to
wait until january and so really we we have a clear multi faceted way to
people into and to start new groups that really i think is gonna continue to

(52:06):
help us be a church groups not just a church with bruce
men he

(52:29):
i

[allen_white] (52:31):
program

[craig] (52:32):
i just i just told tom this may not be allan's friend

[allen_white] (52:38):
no it's not i mean i do i usually record on zoom and everything is
fine the advantage of this is it splits out the channel so i can edit
but yeah it's it's not my friend so what we'll do is we'll say by
and hopefully i got everything that i need otherwise ill be calling you saying hey
the thing we did yesterday yeah we need to do it again

[craig] (53:01):
again

[allen_white] (53:01):
so anyway right so tom cragg thank you so much for being with me today
and thank you for applying these principles to your church and just what an amazing
result and i'm just so happy for you

[craig] (53:18):
thanks allen thinks allen

[allen_white] (53:21):
ye all right so i'm goin to hit