5. We’re all a little Shtisel (and that’s okay) a conversation with Aryeh Buchsbayew

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
No, we should find time to not do this.
Whenever I went to the openingof the Auschwitz exhibit,
understanding, you know, ss andNazis and Hitler, you spoke
about understanding Nazis andHitler.
Um, I listened and I stopped himlike in like as he's talking
about like Twizzlers.

(00:21):
I was like, Ellie.
Yeah.
I'm like, I love you man.
I think I was like, I love youso much.
And he like looks down.
He's like, hi.
No,

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Nah ma'am.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
[inaudible]

Speaker 2 (00:47):
hello.
Good mom.
What's going on?
Pleasant.
Aveva record.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
[inaudible]

Speaker 2 (01:10):
yeah.
Yeah.
Can I woke up this mountain?
Was The Sunday Shannon and foundmy mind in a brown paper bag,

(01:31):
but then drip down a cloud andfail eight miles tall man on a
jacket sky.
I just dropped in to see whatcondition my condition was in.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:52):
Oh yeah.
My condition.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
Welcome to extra sauce.
My name is Haim Cohn and this isepisode five.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (02:02):
Some friends of mine have been asking what the
intention of this podcast is andtruthfully, I haven't been able
to exactly answer that question.
Only to say that I'd like toshare good conversation and
stories from people in my lifeand some of those conversation
might be intense and some I hopewill just be interesting and

(02:27):
fun.
This one I think is all theabove.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
My guess is Arya books by you.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
All right.
He's an interesting person.
He's a therapist, specializes inDBT and EMDR and trauma work.
He serves as clinical supervisorat a Oh hell children's home and
family services.

(02:57):
He holds a private practice ason the five towns.
He's a husband, father, and he'sa good friend.
I sat down with Ari a few weeksago at his office and a the
intention to start out with tohear some of his thoughts and
reflections on the first twoseasons of Dessel that he just
watched.

(03:19):
But I showed up about an hourlate and we were both kind of
antsy and tired and conversationwasn't really going anywhere.
And then I, we were about tocall it quits and then I just
said, uh, the magic word that isArias, magic word, Auschwitz.
And then it sort of picked upfrom there.

(03:40):
We got into a lot of things.
We talked about denial,projection and the insight that
is only possible when we aren'tafraid to looking at ourselves
in the extremes and what mightbe possible when we see just how

(04:02):
we can both devolve as humanbeings, but at the same time
what's precisely possible,

Speaker 3 (04:10):
uh,

Speaker 4 (04:12):
when we rise above that and how that is only
possible when we do have thecourage to see ourselves as we
are.
We talked about a lot of otherthings and uh, I'll just let the
conversation speak for itself.

(04:36):
My primary takeaway is, andlistening to it again, that it
isn't just the knowledge orawareness, which is always nice.
It's the self acceptance and uh,what we do with that awareness
that will ultimately dictate anddetermine if it will be the same

(05:01):
dick to our own children orperhaps be the parent that we
all needed.
So I hope you enjoy thisconversation and I look forward
to sharing more of these withyou.
We'll have another one coming upin about a week and a half.

(05:27):
Uh, that one is a kind of aGimbal Thomas Special.
It's a conversation with myfriend, has he done a blame
small Metzger and birth Taylorthat are recorded about two
weeks ago am I garage.
And that's, that's uh, aninteresting heavy one and uh,

(05:50):
doing the editing on it now andit should be out next week and
then we'll take it from there.
And I always appreciate thefeedback.
So feel free to shoot me amessage or an email at, uh,
email is extra sauce podcast atGmail and this episode is
sponsored by Mushy once again.

(06:14):
And if you'd like to sponsor anepisode, you can email me as
well.
So that's it.
Here's rea and look forward totalking to you soon.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
I went to the opening of the Auschwitz exhibit at the
Brooklyn Heritage Museum a fewweeks ago and of you heard to
me, which is something that Ithink of often, well, a few
things, but one in reference towhat you're talking about.

(06:45):
Half of it's gotta be like,what, 10,000 books on Hitler and
then like another, probably alot more.
Yeah, yeah.
And then probably another, youknow, 20,000 on Nazis and World
War II.
And how many books I couldprobably count on.
My fingers are about the averageGerman during World War Two in

(07:10):
terms of the ones who watched astheir neighbors and friends, uh,
ransacked Jewish homes.
And, oh, there, there, there,there are a few,

Speaker 6 (07:24):
there's the interesting, there was an
interesting book where you havelike what do you have a German
families from different parts ofGermany or like, like pen
palling each other and you seelike the like how present one
fam, one person in the family,it's like a, like an ardent
Nazi.
Any of the supplies like thesupporter versus like, right.

(07:46):
And then you have like, uh, likewe elected him, he's, you know,
he's cleaning up the streets andyou were the of the person who's
like really disgusted witheverything that's happening and
they're having a wholeconversation pen palling back
and forth.
Uh, there's also a lot of thingsin regarding that.

(08:06):
The, that the, the policeman andum, the book I just read called
ordinary people that these, thatthese soldiers that these
policemen were just, they werefrom like a part of Germany, not
really close to like the likethe cap from Berlin and they
were just ordinary people orlike ordinary in quotations.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
They just needed some work.
It didn't work.
And the these people ended updoing some of the most barbaric
yup.
Of the, I mean

Speaker 6 (08:38):
they definitely were

Speaker 5 (08:40):
a lot different from the start of the war.
Right.
To me then that's the point ofthe book is that ordinary people
can be very different if, if itjust, when you add time and
progression or and,

Speaker 7 (08:57):
okay, this is where I'm getting to know you don't
think work.
I'm saying people when you askedby like going to a 70 and
Nancy's in Germany, I thinkwe're capable of it.
That's my point.
So

Speaker 5 (09:10):
how many of us are likely to turn into Hitler?
Not to save, not to get into thewhole thing of can an average
guy turning to Hitler andwithout going into that, the
point is,

Speaker 8 (09:24):
yeah,

Speaker 5 (09:24):
as much as we'd like to think we could, most of us
won't end up as Hitler or evenHemler, but we very well could
end up as the neighbor going tothe lift Goldberg's piano
because what the hell, whyshould the other guy get it?
And we could turn into even theguy who's like, hey, I don't

(09:51):
hate anybody, but you know, I, Ijust looking out for my family
and I don't want anyone thinkingthat I'm like, you know, a
supporter of the, the Union.
So, you know, maybe I'll kick afew heads and, or just the guy
who's just like, I dunno, Ididn't really see anything.
My friend went on Nourish Lewisto Jeremy some years ago and

(10:13):
they were looking for like a, asynagogue and they had just
stopped someone on the street.
And, uh, he does a great Germanaccent, but his is, and this
woman, older woman, which makesme think like when you go to
Jeremy and you meet someone likeover 70, it's like they were
either, and this is, I meanmaybe not now, but like years

(10:37):
ago, like they were either aNazi or looking the other way.
Either way.
It's like who am I talking too?
Anyway, so they're like, they'retrying to find that, that this
synagogue, they know it's likearound there and then they ask
her and she's like, okay,

Speaker 9 (10:54):
see Nagel.
I know Zillow West something.
I don't require it.
I, there was some years ago Isynagogue, he, yes, I think I
record.
I just, I don't know whathappened, you know?

Speaker 5 (11:06):
MMM.

Speaker 9 (11:06):
They took it.
They took the Jews.
I don't remember.
Oh, it's so interesting.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
So you could just do that, you know, like anyone
could've become that is justlike, I don't, I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there was somethinggoing on.
So, or you could be like someonehiding Jews in your basement or
at, which is a small percentage.
Right?

(11:35):
But what if like that's thestory to be learned, if anyone,
if anything, is to be learned,is that we're all that Polish
German Lithuanian neighbor whocould either hide a Jew or steal
Jews

Speaker 4 (11:53):
dishes.

Speaker 6 (11:54):
You've been listening when we were talking.
That's exactly, that's the wholereason in terms of studying that
is being confronting that deepand dark part of you.
Confronting some of theconscious unconscious part where
they are, that I am capable on,that I'm capable.
I'm human, right?
And I'm capable because like Ican't put myself in another

(12:17):
person's shoes until I standthere and we can feel better.
I love this, like the samething.
It was like drug, it's like drugaddiction, right?
People who are in like peoplewho are on the outside, how
could somebody be addicted?
I don't understand it as I'meating like this the eighth
piece of cake.
I don't understand it when I'mshopping.

(12:39):
I don't want to stay here.
Can Be Addicted to heroin.
Right.
You know, like, um, I remember Iwas having this conversation
with somebody.
I was having this conversationwith somebody.
Um, and he was saying he doesn'tunderstand, like he doesn't

(13:00):
understand how people could,could go to any length to use
heroin.
You don't understand it.
Then you got surgery and they'vegot like fentanyl and he got
like oxes and it's like, now Iget it.
Now I now he's like, I get whypeople would sell their, their

(13:21):
bodies to get the hive.
That was great.
He was beyond just the questionis like we don't really
understand.
I think we like, we don'tunderstand what the polls say,
screw the bolts.
We don't understand what, youknow, these Germans who just
suffered, you know, World WarOne, one of them or when the

(13:43):
feed and being like a, uh,depression and the economy going
down and then I've always donethis guy Condon, he's like, it's
obviously like all of a suddentheir, their pri there, they
have that like national prideand they feel connected to
something.
Right.

(14:05):
And they feel a part of, andlike, yeah, like,

Speaker 4 (14:12):
yeah, Jews not so I wish mock and as a scapegoat and
everything else.
So it isn't really so necessaryto go all the way to that
extreme to get that insight ofmaybe I don't really know what
it's like and I can't reallyjust assume that I would not do

(14:33):
the same.
Like there's a lot of degreedegrees before then for that
point to like gain that insight.
No, but I think once you canacknowledge that I'm not better
than, and you can see reality asit is, right, then you have a
choice to transcend them.

Speaker 6 (14:51):
Right?
But once you're operating like,oh, I'll never do that.
Right.
But then when, when push you,you've never had the imagination
to think of like, oh, it'spossible that I could do that.
Right.
And it's also possible that Idon't have to do that.
Right, right.
And again, that's where theability of this, let me say I, I

(15:15):
says like this good and bad,good and bad is based on, is
dependent on the one who'sdeciding it.
When we're talking about NaziGermany Nazis bad, we're saying
they're bad.
But if we were, if we weretransported to Berlin in 1937
Nazis are pretty good.
Jews not so much.
Right.
All depends on the one who'sdesigning it.

(15:37):
Right.
So forget good.
Forget that.
Right.
Let's come to a place of, of, ofa synthesis of the extremes.

Speaker 10 (15:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (15:50):
Let's see if we could understand where everybody's
coming from and that's whatwe're talking about.
This, this'll also that, thateverybody has, everybody's
coming to coming to that pointwith so much other than
beforehand that there's partsthat are affective parts are
ineffective parts are youschmuck less cause Schumack and

(16:13):
all of that makes the human VA,it's just, it's not just this
one thing, right?
So the point is like it's yardof that balance.
It's a, it's a dialecticalperspective where you can see
like, oh, I could here be if Igrew up, if I, if, if I grew up
in Nazi Germany and I wanted tobe a part of and my, or even

(16:34):
think about I was that like, orat a Bagel shop and somebody is
like, uh, doing something orgetting upset or there's
injustice that's done to them.
How many people stand up?
Nobody.
Everybody just looks and locallike nobody cares.
Right?
But once you acknowledge and youdo that, then you have the
ability to transcend that and goabove and beyond and act

(16:58):
differently.
I

Speaker 5 (16:58):
did, I had that experience at a Fort Lauderdale
airport like a year ago.
I was like early morning flightand uh, the, uh, bus drive was
being extremely cruel.
I keep us very, very nasty to acouple who came out with like a
baby and I froze.
I was about to say something andI started and he got very
hostile and hurt.

(17:19):
His manager was there and shewas backing him up and then she
was like, I was like, is thisreally happening?
I had just woken up and like,and I, I started saying
something and then I backed downand then um,[inaudible] it was
an older woman there and she gotreally loud and then once she's,

(17:41):
then I piped in and then it waslike we dealt with it.
But when I got there, when I hadthat recognition that I froze,
like that's what went through mymind.
I was like, oh like yeah maybeit's not so simple to like stand
up in the face of like cruelty.

Speaker 6 (18:01):
Right.
And that's why I go to like thenod that's I go to the extreme
form.
Right?
Cause if you go to the extremefrom one extreme to the other,
then you could go to a place inthe middle, right?
Not just like you can go in, youwould encompass all the other
stages that come beforehand.
You mean anger, all of that.

(18:21):
And then you can rewrite it.

Speaker 5 (18:23):
Yeah.
What I find ironic aboutrighteous indignation, let's say
in like in Western culture isthat the level of indignation
that is reserved for like reallyminor to nothing in terms of
offense is almost like adistraction.
Like we cannot with any level ofauthority, point out what is

(18:44):
wrong.
Like we can't make any, youknow, even whisper something
problematic with radical Islamblowing up, you know, an entire
w you know, building.
But like it just, we don't evensee it.
We don't even know what you'retalking about.
We don't know.
We don't, I don't even know whatyou're talking about.

(19:05):
Like, oh, you mean likereligious extremism, like
religious extreme, uh, iseverywhere.
It's like, I don't know whatyou're talking about.
You know, and then there's likemicro aggression and we're
marching to the streets and burnit down and everything's got to
like, you know, come revolt whenit's like Whoa, like w and I

(19:26):
wonder if the, the easy stuff,the distractions, the
distractions become a way tolike channel our pseudo
righteous indignation andinstead of reserving it for like
what it really should

Speaker 6 (19:42):
not the flection talking about, talk about
defense mechanisms.
Right, right.
Also want to talk about it likePML league, right?
Right.
In her police is like peoplewithout boundaries

Speaker 5 (19:52):
and, and we've talked about this before.
I mean let's just bring thisback to me because it feels
really good.
You know, I couldn't say to the,you know, five people earlier
today that I can't talk now I'mat work.
And then when you called me tobe like, Hey, it's seven 30 you

(20:14):
said you'd be here.
I was able, cause I cancommunicate with you to like
just be like f off.
What's the matter with you?
Like I have things right.
But like that f off reallyshould have come out in the form
of, Hey, I can't talk now, I'mat work.
Try me tomorrow for the firstfour people because the truth is

(20:38):
I wanted to be here and not onthe phone with them.

Speaker 6 (20:42):
You're operating on a on, on when we do this, right?
Like that hour our

Speaker 11 (20:48):
subconscious operates on two different
levels.
One is like this historicalself, right?
That we kind of, we kind ofbased on our history, we kind of
respond, respond to that.
Like you're responding with allthe baggage, you know, with
Mommy and daddy all of a suddenuntil like in this pressure,

(21:10):
like, I have to do this becauseif I'm not, I'm back to, you
know, back to the little boy.
And I have, we have that also interms of relationships.
Like sometimes, uh, you know, ifyou're having, if you're, if
you're too emotional, it's wouldbe as if you're hysterical is
probably from the historical,it's historical whenever the
hallmark cliche, but that'sexactly, that's 100% on, that's

(21:32):
100% on that as a subconscious,uh, uh, historical self.
And then at the same time on theflip side you have life that
true south, you have the art oflike creativity, the
imagination, the what do youlike that you know that
intuition of like you justnaturally know what to do and
what you want to do and we tourwhen we go there all of a sudden

(21:55):
we have that other voice in ourhead and historical self.
Like you suck, you're incapable,you're hopeless, you're
worthless, don't talk.
You have no voice.
Go back there.
This is what you should bedoing.
You know tying it and tying itback into[inaudible] right.
That's, that's what Akivastruggle is.

(22:16):
That's his journey of being histrue self.
Right and taking off theshackles of of that's been put
on him.
Right.
Versus and then also with thathistorical self of like this is
what you're supposed to bedoing.
Like fall in line.
Right.
Be a part like,

Speaker 5 (22:34):
yeah, I to me one of the things that stood out, you
mentioned Kiva and I related toit a lot is like for him to go
with his, what'd you call youknow inner most self calling out
for expression and creativityand to follow his, his, his core

(22:58):
would not just be difficult andcome up against the normal, you
know, obstacles of where we are,our own worst enemies and like
you know, challenging noisenarratives in his head.
Like he would have to deal withall of that but he would also
have to make like a prettyaffirming statement that my

(23:22):
father is wrong, my father waswrong in his wrong.
He would be dishonoring hisfather and where he came from
would simply listening tohimself.

Speaker 12 (23:34):
Okay,

Speaker 5 (23:35):
and how can we expect someone to do that?
Meaning a situation like thatwhere there's like there's no
two ways about it.
I

Speaker 6 (23:45):
can either honor my father in the form of becoming
yet another him or listened tomyself and say I my father's
wrong.
Well is what Joseph Campbellwould talk about the heroic
journey.
That's exactly what it is.
It's venturing into thatunknown.

(24:08):
It's, it's, it's a courageousand heroic act to go to
transition from historical selfand doing what's comfortable.
I almost expected, well youshould be doing to the unknown
part where it like your truetransformation, your
metamorphosis from being just aone of like and be another,

(24:32):
another brick in the wall too.
I guess we'll find out.
Right?
I don't know.
We'll see.
I have to fashion thegrandiosity like, Oh man, let's,
let's like, you know like, oh,that's that.
That's the unknown.
The unknown.
We, we often look at the unknownand when we have the, like the

(24:52):
greatest fears is the fear ofthe unknown.
And so it's already helpless.
Right?
But the most beautiful things,if you look into, like if I look
into my own, my own story, youknow, when I ventured out into
the unknown, despite the fear,despite the, the anxiety and
when I just walk through fearinstead of away from it,

(25:16):
something beyond my wildestdreams occurred, something
beyond my imagination.
Then that's the that's and thenthat was the, and I was able to,
you know, that's a heroicjourney of like going through
difficulty going through it,transforming and then returning,

(25:38):
right?
I'm thinking, yeah, JosephCampbell has a whole light 13
step like cyclical.
These guy, he was a big thirdthing.
Stepper 13 no.

Speaker 5 (25:46):
Okay, here, here's, I got three things going through
my mind.
One is like saying no to theways of my father, so to speak.
Right.
Is like, feels like the mostsacral adjusts selfish and like,
yeah, all around narcissisticthing to do.
Right.
That's just, that's just the,the, the, the association that

(26:06):
the old association, right

Speaker 6 (26:07):
you to do or narcissistic for that to be put
on you to do.
Oh, that necessarily here.
There they are regardless of whowas right or wrong.
And, but now that it's with me,

Speaker 5 (26:19):
I must fall on the sword and honor my father
despite whatever it does to me.
Right.
Kiva, I'm talking about Cuba,obviously.
I am.

Speaker 6 (26:28):
I was, you're talking about true, true.
Codependence right.
So going back, it's like, yeah,that's, that's I think

Speaker 5 (26:35):
what, whoa.
So this, that I'm balancing thatout.
I mean, I'm, I'm listening tothose feelings in myself as we
talk about this.
And then I'm

Speaker 4 (26:44):
also thinking of like, cause I, I said religious
cause like, it's all tied in forme.
I mean for our Kiva, uh, whichis, there's also less oil.
How many arts tell me based onVsa, like that's, that's right
there.
Like you can't have arelationship with God or
relationship with your souluntil you leave your father's

(27:09):
house.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (27:12):
Well, going back is that, uh, that's the whole
concept of William on the wholerunning and returning, you know,
going back to, um, you know,with, uh,

Speaker 4 (27:27):
Jacob's ladder with the angels going up and down.
That's the stance.
The waltz, the waltz of life.
It has to be your wall as beyour dance.
Right.
I had a thought recently.
Uh, I mean I've thought maybe Ikeep it had this thought, which
is maybe Kiva honors his fatherby venturing and listening to

(27:54):
his soul and his creativity andhis and his and walking his,
his, his journey, which is one[inaudible] upon a time.
My father was also, you know,young and he also wanted to have
his journey and he also had hisvoice and he also has his father

(28:17):
pulling him back to wherever hisold home was.
And if I know anything, I mean,if Keven knows anything, it's
that his father did notsuccessfully charter that path
for himself.
And he went back to his father'shome and maybe by lovingly

(28:43):
detaching, he honors his fatherby saying, I'm sorry you
couldn't.
I'm really sorry and I know you,it's too painful to even
probably go back to consider thepain of the fact that you once
wanted to and couldn't.
And now you built a life aroundthat.

(29:04):
I'm sorry, but I'm going to dothis for me and I'm also doing
it for you.
Right.
And I'm going to like listen tomyself and my voice.
And, and walk and lead myfather's house.

Speaker 6 (29:18):
Right.
That's on point.
I think you probably even thefather.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's you see, but even
towards the end, there was stillat that tortured.
He's not completely, completelywhole with that choice.
You do see that in two areas inlet's say like the too so
vividly in two

Speaker 1 (29:42):
areas.
Right?
One is with the kivas brother,like instead of our days, man,
right.
Where he only wants to do likewhat's pleasers?
Huh?
I said, well, he only wants todo is please his father and yet
wants, he's like, I could'vebeen a contender.
I could have been better ThanShwe Aki.
I could've been a musician.
Right.
He's better than the[inaudible].
Right.
You see how you have the twobrothers are following their

(30:03):
path, right?
You have a Kiva is following thepainting path or, or the
podcasting path.
And uh, and you had Zev RNAfinally like becoming a
musician.
Right.
And before was, I've already, hewas always like playing, like
the victim could have beencinder, but like, my daddy
wanted me to go to coal owl.

(30:24):
Like, he's just like this nebbylike Woody Allen, Jew.
You know what I mean?
Like they're like poor me.
That's what we, I don't thinkpaying everybody hated Zev
already cause he was like, thisis whining.
He's like this whiny, likeplaying the victim.
And I listen, there's a part of,it was a part of me that is part
of, we all did that.
Gosh, yeah, we all do that.

(30:44):
I think we've done, I thinkthat's a part of Shit we have to
see.
There were all where everybody,like even the Rochelle or, or
even that guy that, that, that,that these are all parts of us.
They don't make us who we are.
But there are parts of us wentback to his, and then when he,
then he, there's a lot thatwhole thing in the bunker.
And then the most powerful thingis that he quits the band.
Not because he had to, he chosehis family.

(31:08):
He chose, he chose his lifewhile at that point it wasn't
his family, his wife gave himhis phone, his wife wanted him
to, but he told us he had everyright, but I want meaning that
at that point the toxicity ofthe shame or whatever it was,
you can't, you dear not hadalready been completely ingested

(31:28):
and was now his own right.
So he was saying no to himselfat that point.
He didn't even have a parent, awife or anyone doing that.
He was playing that role forhimself.
He was, he was saying yes tohimself when he stepped out and
quit it you say yes to himself.
Was it saying yes to himself orsaying yes to like the the uh,

(31:54):
how is the saying yes tothemselves?
Cause it because he realizesit's not what he wanted.
It was an illusion.
He is, he doesn't like, he'slike, you don't want to like we
want something so badly he waslike this, we get it.
We're like, uh, we, we get socaught up in the fantasy of the
right.
So this was still like his,whatever, 12 year old self idea
of what it meant to leave.

(32:15):
Now he came face to face withthe opportunity and he realized
this is not actually what Iwanted.
I wanted what I had tributed tothis accomplishment but does it,
I don't know that, I don'tremember.
Does he actually like go rose?
He goes and cons with his wifeis the story of the alchemists
where the treasure was alwayslike underneath you the whole
time.
You just had to dig in and ownit, take some action towards

(32:39):
right.
His whole life

Speaker 6 (32:40):
was passive, right.
He was doing and like he, whenhe got married, it was passive.
It was going to, the Kollel waspassive.
There was never a, he wasn't anactive participant in his life
and the find and then, and thenhe finally owned it.
He owned his life and he, and hechose it where he chose, he

(33:01):
chose his life and there was asense of like you see on his
face and he's a different, likehe was smiling and,

Speaker 5 (33:07):
and it was only by coming close enough and actually
holding that opportunity in thehand and then saying, uh, I
don't actually want this studywas able to fall in love with
the choices that he made.
The truth enrages act.

Speaker 6 (33:21):
He, he went into the unknown.
He grew, he went through thecycle and he trans even though,
even though everything stayedthe same.

Speaker 5 (33:29):
Right.
Let's see.
Ultimate, a story arc of like somany, I mean, the ultimate story
, meaning it's a wonderful life.
Uh, the Weatherman, is it likeall the, so many of those
Nicholas cage movies, is itNicholas cage and the weather
and like he's able to meaning orthe, I forgot the name of it.
Whatever the point is, where hewishes everything wasn't as life

(33:52):
and then he has the perfect lifeand then he realizes he had the
perfect life all along.

Speaker 6 (33:57):
Right.
But that was that that shows youthat these like these, like
these art types is a universe isa universal principle or an idea
that transcends culture likethis principle, right?
And it transcends a culture radlife.
Like uh, uh, Christianity,Buddhism, all this.
It's a human, it's a human idea.

(34:19):
So you've been principal,

Speaker 5 (34:22):
so we had a conversation a few weeks ago.
You were talking about thismovie dude seen life itself.

Speaker 6 (34:27):
Oh, is that the second part?
The second person was also thebrother in law when he like
completely goes off at all andthen he comes here he comes,
he's different.
He comes back because of shameand because of uh, no father,
she was abandon their kids.
And you see that he eventuallycomes to the place where he

(34:50):
like, like owns fatherhood, thathe owns his life.
He owns his relationship withhis wife saying her heritage.
Because I want to ask you aquestion about their in segment,
but like he's like you, you seelike that, like once again, a
father been in their kids, badguy, right?

(35:11):
Right.
We like black and whitethinking.
We don't know.
The whole fact that that's bad.
And yet we see that it'scomplicated and there's a lot of
things like you was talkingabout, he was 19 never having an
identity.
I never having a life.
And then all of a sudden he hasa family.
It's complicated.
And who are we to judge, right?

(35:33):
Where are we to judge what hedid?
Who says that we want to do theexact same based on our
upbringing and what we want.
Okay.

Speaker 5 (35:39):
Through.
So I'll remind me, I want to askyou a question about that.
That situation get the in him.
But before that, I don't know.
You ever see that what you seeis walk like they're like they
get, he has it now.
That is fantastic.
I love the way he holds the haton the winning.

(36:00):
They go flash back to his datingher.
He's got that like that.
Uh, so I was, I was at took awalk with Ellie.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (36:07):
And I was like, I put my hands behind my back and all
of a sudden I was like,

Speaker 5 (36:10):
like walking like that.
The wattle no auto.

Speaker 6 (36:13):
So this is a fit.
This is, this is a fin testic wehad a walk.

Speaker 5 (36:17):
Yeah.
And it's like, it's, it'samazing in general, you're
showing me or otherwise that theHasidim, uh, I speak speak
specifically like the full ofBush them.
We tend to think that they're solimited in their, like, you
know, they're black and whiteand quite literally and they
have their leg, but there is somuch personality and character

(36:40):
that can be developed justwithin those confines and
perhaps more so when you're,you're, you're limited to like
various specific black andwhite, you know, you're almost
forced to like find yourexpression and like your, your,
your, your pap in like more, youknow, original and like creative

(37:04):
ways.
And it comes out even in like ina walk, like there's this kind
of Husted who holds his handsbehind his back.
And then there's a guy who kindof twiddles his hat and that
went on was the one who liketilts it.
And it's like you really get tosee, you know, individuals, you
know, Eh, obviously to be, youknow, on familiar, I may all

(37:29):
look the same, but when you getcloser you start noticing like,
okay,

Speaker 6 (37:33):
well it's, it's, I think it's also going back is
the ability of finding thebeauty in something that seems
so ordinary,

Speaker 5 (37:41):
right?

Speaker 6 (37:42):
I think.
And that can be done.
You know, going back to, youknow, we talk, uh, with uh,
American beauty with the bag,the bag is in the wind and the
guy's like, oh, this is the mostbeautiful thing.
You're like, this is just a bag.
But the meaning behind that isthe ability, the genuine
ability.
Now like, you know, like mailingin like, I'm so grateful, like,

(38:05):
like the genuine ability to seethe beauty and the nuance

Speaker 5 (38:11):
of a plastic bag flying in the wind, right?
So here we are observing thisstory, which is everyone's
story, which is the oldest storyand you're suggesting what is
like really meaningful but alsokind of a moral, which is

(38:34):
appreciate how we are all Kivaand we are all Shalom and we are
all every one of thosecharacters and get the right

Speaker 2 (38:45):
without

Speaker 5 (38:48):
dismissing the pain that could be caused like hurt
people hurt people withoutdismissing that just because
it's her under,

Speaker 6 (38:57):
yeah, sorry.
This is this that like hurtpeople hurt people.
Yeah.
Like that says that's thedumbest thing.
I hate these cliches.
Hurt people.
Hurt people.
Yeah.
Like, like I, you know, it makespeople hurt.
People be like, what the likewe're all hurting inside of them
.

Speaker 5 (39:14):
It's redundant.
Fine.
Okay, so, but you're under, if Ijust said people hurt people,
you wouldn't understand what Imeant.

Speaker 6 (39:19):
No, but that'd be more accurate than hurt people.
Hurt people

Speaker 5 (39:23):
because then it's obvious that we're all hurt.

Speaker 6 (39:26):
We're, we're like, we're all hurting as humans.
We hurt.
But then you didn't say like,oh, we, you know, I, I get what
the implication is.
I just think like, you know howI feel about cliches?

Speaker 5 (39:37):
Okay.
So here's what I'm saying.
I think there's a lot of truthis unreliable narrator and that,
you know, getting away from theblack and white, but how do you
do that without starting to likereally mess with the foundations
of what we internally internallyknow inherently know to be right
and wrong and good and badthing.

(39:59):
But, and it depends on the onewho's deciding it.
No.
Okay.
So you're going into this wholelike millennial my truth versus

Speaker 1 (40:07):
you might want to make sure though

Speaker 6 (40:09):
Zania is deal.
We're going from the org towardtransitioning from two
dimensional to three,

Speaker 5 (40:13):
the three dimensional , right?
So for me, the way I processedthat is very simple.
I can absolutely understand.
I can absolutely connect andappreciate that I may never
really understand it withoutbeing there.
Right.
And, and I, I've experiencedthat and been in that situation.

(40:33):
I've been to like prison many,many, many times and saw like
real beauty in humanity and atthe same time was consciously
aware that this person, yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Murdered someone.
Right?
So what's this called?
What, what's this called?
[inaudible] in the geometryworld circle.
I have a, what's it like whencircles and circle, you know,
like I don't know anything,right?
It's right.
You're Kabod right when she wentto you went to yeshiva.
Yes.
I forgot what, um, do you metricplease when the two circles are

(41:09):
aren't, are intertwined and youhave like the space in between
them, did they share?
That's called life, right?
Once again, you have good,

Speaker 2 (41:21):
you bad

Speaker 1 (41:23):
and you have this part where they bull share.
That's what it's all about.
Hmm.
Is that is when we are on goingback to that reliable narrator
is that it may be possible thatour first person account of life
might be incomplete and thenweed and like, like children, we
have an unwavering trust for thenarrator.

(41:46):
So we then we take a step backand be like, hmm, maybe the
narrator like might be speakingin distortions.
Is it my, I went back my truthor not my truth, but like let's
go into it like a synthesis oftwo extremes and get to this
middle point, that middle point.
Right.

(42:06):
Which is the balance of twoopposite extremes.
That's what we call life.
Hmm.
That's what we call the humans.
That's what we're made of.

Speaker 5 (42:18):
I know.
Wow.
I mean, first of all, this wasentirely in keeping with like
Kabbalah and like Jewsunderstanding of like the
creation of the universe andgood and bad forever being mixed
after headlights, his ass andeverything else.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
[inaudible] it's like going back to a seed, right?
Right.
Uh, this, uh, a seed has ittotally decompose and kill
itself in order to grow intosomething beautiful.
Mussels have to destroy itself,which has seemingly bad.
Right?
And we're at two or somethingstronger to occur.

(42:55):
There is night and there's Day.
There are seemingly two polaropposites, both in the two.
Polar opposites containeverything as this is the whole
thing.
The whole concept of the unionyet or both?
In Yin and Yang, they both lie.
That's where the two circlesrepresent.
So it's finding the, the, themiddle point.
We're calm and chaos couldcoexist.

(43:17):
Meaning to say, don't be bad anddon't be joker.
Both those guys are posers.

Speaker 5 (43:29):
I was at a group thing and I had a like a little
insight because the, the subjectwas like,

Speaker 3 (43:36):
okay,

Speaker 5 (43:37):
acknowledging that reality is what reality is, not
my thoughts and feelings aboutrate.
What reality is

Speaker 1 (43:43):
is right, right.
Seeing like seeing the world asit is.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
And[inaudible]

Speaker 5 (43:51):
there were a few people talking on the topic that
gave me this insight andbasically there were a few
people and they all said thatthey all shared a similar
sentiment, which was, I knowwe're talking about reality and

(44:11):
the reality, not my reality, butI often feel like, and once
you're ready to go into that, Ifeel like you know what you're,
where you're headed.
And the way there was everyoneshould have the, those people
who share the sentiment of, uh,I feel like sometimes

Speaker 4 (44:32):
my reality is the reality pretty much.
Right.
So, and then I, then when theyshare a bit more, it was very
clear that if as a child youwere not allowed to have your
reality and your feelings, thenthe reality will always turn

(44:52):
into your reality.
Which is to say, if I was neverallowed to have my truth, like
yes, I'm six years old and I'mfeeling scared, then I'm going
to be 26 and now it is not justa cloudy day.

(45:13):
It is scary.
Meaning I was never allowed tohave a my reality and my truth,
my feelings.
So now everything is my truthand my feelings.
Or in this specific story of theguy who comes to the reverend
complaints, everyone is steppingon me and he says, well, what do

(45:33):
you expect when you just laydown on the ground, right?
So people don't have a choice.
They're going to, it's nothingdo with them, right?
Of course you're going to bestepped upon, which is if I am
not owning my reality and I wasnever given the permission to

(45:53):
own my reality, well my realityis going to be everywhere,

Speaker 6 (45:58):
right?
That's where the balance comesin and going back, is that in
one pocket or this is the sameas symbolism?
A tour or like, I guess everyHasidic rabbi kind of says the
same thing is that on one handyou have to believe that the
world was created for me.
Right?
There's like sense of like myreality, like this millennial,
right?
And, and

Speaker 4 (46:20):
right.
And the bridge between the twoextremes and,

Speaker 6 (46:24):
and then on the other pocket, I'm not, I'm nothing but
dust and, uh,

Speaker 4 (46:29):
maggots, right?
Or Moo.
What,

Speaker 6 (46:34):
how do I, how do I, how do I come to a place that
both are true?
They are.
Hmm.
Is He inu regular into more likea, the iron tower I knew from
our member Uber, Uber, I hatethose names.
Right?
It's like, am I a reality existand I need to respect and
appreciate your otherness.

(46:54):
Right?
And that you do have a realityand not only the Youtube of
reality, your reality isbeautiful.
Magnificent,

Speaker 4 (47:03):
so, and it doesn't need to conform to my reality.
Okay.
And then, and when we each dothat, then we can actually show
up, honestly and selfsufficiently to be able to have
an actual relationship with theobjective reality.

(47:26):
Correct.
Which is, which is differentthan our own individual reality.
Yes.
I think

Speaker 1 (47:30):
it's really tie thing gets really hard and really
complicated.
I think it's taken me a longtime to come to this come to
this place of, of the balancebetween willingness and
willfulness and, and kind ofmaturing.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
How do you, how do you see those tied in?
What willfulness[inaudible]first of all, explain what you
mean by willing versus willful.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Am I willing to entertain the idea that I have
my reality and you have yourreality, right?
Am I able to, am I willing toentertain the idea that even
though I am experiencing painand difficulty and suffering,
it's might be possible thatthere's like that it will come

(48:22):
and go as a way of that it's notthe reality that there's, it's
possible that there's somethinggreater than myself that's
happening, right?
Or my willful would be liketrying to put my beliefs what I
want on to other people, ontomyself, right.
With this store shins and trylimiting myself and being

(48:44):
something that I'm not, orhaving people be something that
they're not having my uh, havinghaving my spouse be there, be my
mommy, right?
Have my troll a dron do x, yhave my coworker, you know, uh,
do the things that I want themto do.
How my clients, right.

(49:07):
Right.
Like be perfect clients so Icould feel good about myself as
a therapist.
Right?

Speaker 5 (49:12):
Let others be others.
So you can, you allow you to beused so others can be,

Speaker 1 (49:17):
well, I'm saying like, am I just with like, or I
also am I willing to acknowledgethat light that I make mistakes.
Huh?
I'm willing to acknowledge thatlike that I'm flawed and then
I'm human and I'm doing the bestthat I can and I could do better
or the two could coexist.
I hit, I taught, this is like aconcept that I like the two

(49:39):
don't, don't cancel each otherout, but I'm doing the best I
can as a, as, as me, as a, as anindividual, as a father, as a
husband, as a professional, as afriend.
Sydney here right now with youand I and, and all those roles I

(50:00):
will do better.
Oh boy.
We always like the end.
It doesn't discount.
It doesn't invalidate I think, Ithink that the dialectical
perspective has changed my lifeimmensely over the years and
he's, it has, I've gone a lotless like bitter and in my, my
inner heredity, my inner lidfuck my ear, like Mike in or

(50:24):
like the sugars in the and beingcomfortable with, without being,
being comfortable with the ideathat I'm not perfect and I have
is not being complacent andwilling to entertain that.
That the journey is a processand it takes time to develop,

(50:44):
not, not looking for immediateresults.
And that's what people like.
It's like I want to change rightaway.
It's not happening as fast aslike happened.
Screw it.
Let me continue in dysfunctionalbehavior and, and, and distorted
belief system.
And then I wake up again and belike, oh, I need to change.
And then it's an immediate isyou want, it's, it's the, um,

(51:07):
the, the definition of insanityis doing the same thing over and
over again and expectingdifferent results where I could
throw out those, that insanitythat though, that belief system
then something marvelous andsomething something spontaneous,
which I knew that occur.
I make room, I expand for thatto exist.

Speaker 5 (51:26):
Hmm.
What's, what's amazing is, isthat I know people who've
discussed this'll and in aneffort to like, you know, the,
all their anger around it,right?
Oh, it's often people who grewup Haredi like, or reminds them
of all the dysfunction that theygrew up with and how much they
hated and they, there's acomplete lack of acknowledgement

(51:47):
of the degree to they, how theymanifest their own inner Haredi
around whatever it is.
Like Sholom is every parentforcing their children into
whoever they are.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
You know, I think as a parent is, it's, it's one of
the hardest thing to do is torealize that your, that your
children are not like near theproperties are, they're not your
property.

Speaker 5 (52:10):
Something that really got to me when I was watching
this is when get these husbandcomes back and he so desires to,
he so desires to have a like aconversation with her about what
happened and she just wants topretend like nothing ever

(52:30):
happened and he keeps liketrying to initiate it and she
shuts it down and then nothingreally happened.
Well I don't know what you'retalking about while she resents
him and hates of, right.
And is acting out around that inher own ways and is dealing with

(52:52):
it despite realizing it or not.
And was, it was twofold.
One, it was appreciating likethe level to which fry, I mean
he's the bad boy and he, hecan't live with himself.
Not at the very least likehaving his apology herd or

(53:16):
having, he's wanting to bevindicated, vindicated or even,
or even like he wanted somethinghe wanted to like even like

Speaker 4 (53:26):
admonish me but like something, at the very least,
let's not pretend this wasn'tsomething something happened
clearly.
So he's a, he's seekingredemption while she's seeking
retribution.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and really what they'reboth really, one is like is one

(53:47):
to love each other.
Yeah.
There's one of the Nice family.
Yeah.
And it's his, his inability tolike speak up for what was wrong
and what drove him to need tobelieve.
Right.
And her lack of ability to speakup about how hurtful that was as

(54:10):
leaving and then not being ableto acknowledge that that really
did happen.
He really did leave.
He really did take off his beardand a little of Bush and go live
with some Argentinian Shiksalike she couldn't grapple with
that.
But there's inherent in both.
There's hope.

(54:30):
Fear, I guess fear.
Like if I even say

Speaker 1 (54:34):
start that conversation or go down that
road, God knows where it willlead.
Fear, the unknown, right.
Is talking about it.
It's, it's, it's a courageous,active venture into the unknown
because look at that when shewas able to finally go to that
dark place, you know, I like tocall it the coders Kardashian of
one soul that hopefully you'llbe able to enter at least once

(54:55):
in their lifetime.
Right.
Neil's saying once a year likethat course Kadesha where nobody
goes.
Right.
Do you know what is right.
When she was finally able to dothat, she was able to is she
found there

Speaker 3 (55:08):
him.
Right.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
And she was able to tap into that relationship like
[inaudible] you know, like shewas like try to shield her
daughter from making like thesame, right.
We love mistake that she madeand the she made, but when she
was able to like finally openedthat place up and let him in,
she was able to let herself,she, yeah.
Yeah.
She was able to train there asshe was able to, now she has

(55:31):
like a whole different, she wasable to, to go up and the level
of connection with her husbandthat was lacking and why and
when and when we can't do that.
There was, but I was there.
We can't let anyone else do thateither.
It's a wall.
Right?
Walls are there.
Right.
The coach that you have thesewalls, walls or they're told to
not allow people from venturingin.

(55:51):
I noticed her also doesn't letyou venture out.
Have you noticed this?
Like your therapist and I'venoticed just within the small
sphere of people I know who areother therapies or other this as
well?
No, just people I know and it'snot like, oh I didn't mean
scientific, but you have like500 friends on Facebook.
I know, you know so many, somany people that parents tend to

(56:16):
like save their harshest.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (56:20):
For the kids that most remind them of themselves.
I mean I guess it's not likeit's pretty out there.
It's not.
But I have observed it inspecific situations where they,
the be like a mother withdaughters or father would sons,
the ones that most sometimeseven physically resemble them.
And certainly like characterwise and personality, they tend

(56:42):
to be like extremely harsh.
Especially when there'sunresolved

Speaker 1 (56:47):
self.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that the voice that's inour own heads that's reserved to
beating, beating us up, right.
All of a sudden go transfersonto that particular son or
daughter because like, yeah, Icould talk bad about that.
I could be so harsh to themcause they're me.
Right.
So like with Sun a who doesn'tremind me of me.

(57:10):
I can be loving and caring andunderstanding, but son B, who's
like, who's hat is sensitive asI am or who is who, who doesn't
play sports or who doesn't do x,y.
I could tell him that he, thathe's incapable.
I can be harsh.
I can go from zero to a hundredand be a real dick to him

(57:31):
because I am that same dick tomyself.
I am that same unreliablenarrator that's harsh,
unpredictable, and not secure.
I have not.
If I had the reason why I can'tparent that child is because I
have not yet learned to parentmyself.

(57:54):
Do I parent myself through alens of being a critical parent?
Distortions, abuse, verbal, ordo I shift to overdo or from
place of a nurturing parent?
Compassionate.
Apparently we talk about this,right?
It's something that we've spokenabout like a in a, in a, in

(58:16):
Florida, right, and that hole,but it's like co if you, once
you learn how to parent onyourself effectively, then
you'll able to,

Speaker 4 (58:23):
but how many times do we hear this?
Which sounds like martyr like,and we all know what that's
about, but it sounds very, um,altruistic.
It sounds noble.
Like I'm gonna give my kidseverything I didn't have.
And sometimes that means like alot of playstations and stuff,

(58:45):
but sometimes it's like, I'mgoing to love my kids the way my
parents never loved me.
And it's like, that soundsgreat.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Good.
But

Speaker 4 (58:57):
you can't really do that if he still don't love
yourself

Speaker 1 (59:00):
or you don't really know how to, yeah.
You know, our, uh, Ross Greenesays, I mean, that's really,
this is one of the few thingsthat really impacted my view in
therapy and on the world.
Right.
And he, he, he posits that if achild is struggling academically
in English or arithmetic, whatdo we do know as the school?

(59:26):
And the parents will like givehim a tutor, be understanding
like you, like nurturing,compassionate, right?
They'll, they'll take the, uh,the precautionary measures to
make sure that he, if he'sdeficient in a skill than he
would be, you know, and he'll becaught up, right?

(59:46):
However, if the kid isstruggling emotionally,
socially, what's wrong with you?
Why don't you like, or he's at,he's acting out.
You know, children have aninnate innately want to do the
right thing and they don't wantto do it.
Just don't know how to do it.
And nobody's really telling themhow nobody's teaching them.
Ha.
Nobody's did.
Cultivating and developing theseskills we just expecting to

(01:00:10):
actively know.
So instead of getting them thehelp, we break them.
What's wrong with you for notknowing?
And they feel like pretty, theyfeel if they feel like garbage
and if feel less than that samechild, it's going to grow up to
the adult and as an adult andstill and still exhibit the same
dysfunctional behaviors onlybecause he was never taught and

(01:00:32):
he's going to be down onthemselves for not knowing.
And why am I not like everybodyelse who intuitively, right?
Everybody like who justmagically knows how to do it
right?
It were reality as we know thatnobody emotional intelligence
needs to be taught for somereason.
We don't teach emotionalintelligence.
Now we are a little bit in theJewish and the Jewish.

(01:00:53):
Um, for sure in the Jewishcurriculum is very, it's, we're
like 20 years behind, butemotional intelligence needs to
be taught.
It's nothing.
It's nothing to, it's, it's not,it's not intuitive.
It's not natural.
So the, the same child is all,is going to be continuously
repeat the same child and adultis going to continuously repeat

(01:01:14):
dysfunctional behavior at allbecause he was never taught.
So now that he won, now thischild, let's say, wants to like
give care and compassion and doall the things that he saw on
like a full house or seventhheaven to his children as if he
could just skip himself in theprocess.
Right.
Or remember this, you know, likeremember you see hook?

(01:01:37):
No, it was, it was RobinWilliams.
When Peter Pan Grows up.
No, like Peter Pan.
He is like the like thequintessential child, right?
Who like loves lie.
He like that, you know, when hegrows up he be, he's a real
asshole as a father.
He's like this bitter, like,like, like this bit.

(01:01:58):
This guy like hates his life.
Hates his family.
He doesn't know how to like makehis kids like how make life
magical cause he was nevertaught how to be a parent.
Right.
I'm thinking in the movie it'smore complicated but like it's
the same thing like unless youlike take responsibility and

(01:02:20):
teach yourself the skills.
Yes.
You weren't taught whateverskills are deficient in, in your
life and it's up to you andyou're responsible to like learn
how to do it and realizesometimes you fall and sometimes
you struggle.
And being a parent is

Speaker 6 (01:02:37):
hard.
Like how many kids do you haveMarie?
Three holes.
The oldest seven youngest.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Oh so, so seven, seven, three seven six, seven,
six three.

Speaker 6 (01:02:53):
Okay,

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
so you're not just speaking theoretical than you,
you, you live this life.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
It like a real example is that my oldest,

Speaker 6 (01:03:02):
my oldest ICO, lot of here, I see a lot of me and him
and my wife can attest.
I'm very critical at times.
You know, I'm definitely, I'mdefinitely human.
You know, sometimes you know, Itry to correct my own mistakes
through him.
I don't mean I'm a victim tothat

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
and he doesn't get it.
He doesn't get it.
You know what I mean?
You're like, maybe 70 year oldsaren't supposed to get, I don't
know, like a seven year roleslike aren't like intuitively
like be like amazing and like,do you ever notice when you're
like, just stop it and you'rereally saying like stop it
through yourself about whateveryou just did

Speaker 6 (01:03:41):
a hundred or a lot more?
A lot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
I, I noticed that like, like my, sometimes my
reactions to him, I'm saying Ihave a lot now.
I think a lot of, I have urgesto respond and like this like
hurry, anyway, you know, thislike this insecure like this of
like a compensating just likethrow shown on him and
everything.
It's like, it's like you spilledmilk, like what's wrong with

(01:04:06):
you?
Like we're going to kick you outback.
And we were doing around likebee with open fist.
Closed fist is a reportable, butit's in New York.
We believe in capital punishmentand that's with like, uh,
whenever it's a joke, like onwild.
But like I like we're, I'mhuman.
I'm, once I started to embracethat, that you like that I'm not

(01:04:28):
perfect.

Speaker 6 (01:04:28):
Right.
I, and that I, and I'm sure, Idon't know, I like

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
parenting is, is also a skill that needs to be
learned, but like in a, in awill and a willing way where
like the, it's a process.
I think I had parents like,until I like you're going to
screw up your kids, you want toaim for the 3%, like it's so
it's going to happen 30%.
Like not screwed up.
They, the 30% screw up.

(01:04:56):
You know, it's not based onscience, but it's just, if
you're so careful not to screwthem up, you're going to screw
them up.
Right, right.
But I still, I, I came home froma wedding.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
That sounds great by the way.
I'm saying like,

Speaker 6 (01:05:09):
okay,

Speaker 4 (01:05:11):
meaning I'll, Avaya was like, even like a thing to
like desire not to.
So, so that you

Speaker 11 (01:05:18):
can, I just say embraced in break, uh, the lice
for now, I'm going back to latespiritually and perfect.
But like going back, it's likeyou're going to parent and
perfectly right and like do the,doing the best you can while
continuing to grow.
Like I'm or I, I came, I came, Icame home from a wedding two
weeks ago.
Yeah.

(01:05:38):
I, and my oldest son, like, itwas like, I came back from like
a only a Williamsburg weddingand I was like, oh my son.
Um, and I'm like, you know,warming up leftovers.
And my son comes downstairs andhe's talking to me and talking
about urges is the, the, myfirst response is like, why are
you awake?
Why aren't you in bed?

(01:05:59):
Why aren't you sleeping?
But then I think, and then onceI allow those urges and thoughts
to pass, then I also think like,oh, like this is a great
opportunity to bond with my son.
I like him sometimes, you know,I think differently, but like I
love my son and you know, thisis a great opportunity to not to
admonish him for him, not uh,for not hitting, you know,

(01:06:23):
carrying my will of being intobed but to spend time with them
and bond with him and he's justtalking about other utter
nonsense in this day about stuffI don't even know, but I'm just
like looking at him and I'mseeing, I'm seeing my son not
seeing me seeing my son and forlike for all his quirks and for

(01:06:45):
all for him, his personality islike a little cute little
freckles and I'm seeing him asnot an extension of, of me.
I'm seeing it as a separateentity and as a as um, like he's
talking.
Yeah, I'm thinking like, wow, Ireally like, I love this kid so

(01:07:05):
much.
Like so like more than, it'slike I tapped into that for like
to that moment as an infant, I'mholding it in my arms.
I just like, I'm looking at himlike he is, he is, he is worthy
of love, security and likelooking at him and I, why I live
, I'm like filled in my art likewith so much emotion.

(01:07:25):
I only, I think I stopped himlike in like as he's talking
about like Twizzlers, I waslike, Ellie, yeah.
I'm like, I love you man.
I think I was like, I love youso much.
And he like looks down.
He was like, I know.
I was like, am I know, but likeI really love you.
And he said, you know what?
You know, like every time I feelthat you don't love me, you

(01:07:49):
always in that part, that part,like at that point that, that,
that, that point, I don't feelloved you.
You always say I love you.
It always reminds me that.
And, and I was like, I was like,there's, you know what Ellie,
there is nothing you could everdo.

Speaker 8 (01:08:09):
Hmm.

Speaker 11 (01:08:09):
Never, nothing that will ever take away my love for
you.
And I'm sorry that I don't likeif I don't express it to you
enough and I just wanna let youknow that like I'm doing the
best I can as a father and I'llalways be striving to be better.
And I know your doing the bestyou can as a son and, and what
unites us is that we both loveeach other.

(01:08:31):
And he was like, yeah, I know, Ilove you too.
He like, he grabs hold of me andI grabbed hold of him and, and I
was like, and I, and I was like,not only do I love you, I always
want to make sure that like Ialways want to make you like
happy and go, we weren't, don'twant to give to you.
He's like, and I'm like, and I'mlike, I know at times you only
think I can give to you cause Ilike, like I don't give you

(01:08:53):
candy.
He's like, I know, I know eventhough you don't give me candy,
it's because it's for like,cause it's for my health.
And we just sat there and heldeach other.
And that was a profoundexperience of the ability of
like owning my own challengesand weaknesses of like being in
like a, as being a parent andnot trying to, not trying to

(01:09:13):
write the sins of myself, of my,my deficiencies, my defects of
my son and allow him to reallybe himself.
And as a result of that, Ibecome my own PR.
I become my own self.
I become my own parents.
I'm not like, like redoing thesame thing, the myrcene same
patterns as as my father and hisfather and his father.

(01:09:35):
I create my own story, my ownarc, my own path and then only
happened that only was able tohappen and I was able to venture
into that part of myself andlook myself in the eye and say
like, dude, you're parentingyour kid as if you're parenting
yourself.
You need to love yourself.

(01:09:56):
You need to like love yourselfnow like this.
Like, like you're worthy oflove.
You are worthy of, ofcompassion.
You are worthy to beingnurtured.
You have inherent worth.
Once I was able to entertain theidea and at that moment except
the idea, then I was able tochannel that towards buys

(01:10:17):
towards my son.
Hmm.
That was a profound, profoundexperience.
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
There's something like circular there that's
putting in like the healthiestway, which is I need to love
myself enough to be able to nothate this reminder of myself.
And then I also need toappreciate that this child is
not me.

(01:10:49):
He, he or she or he, he's hisown person and doesn't deserve
to be like to be projected withall my stuff around myself.

Speaker 11 (01:11:01):
Right?
Altruistic self love.

Speaker 4 (01:11:03):
Alright.
And then once I do that and I, Idistinguish, I can, I can
disengage and distinguish inorder to unite.
So like I'm not closer to myson.
I'm not closer to myself as aresult of distinguishing that
they are not me.
And I can only do that once Iloved myself enough not to be

(01:11:25):
overwhelmed by the feeling ofhere's this reminder of me and I
hate myself and I hate thisreminder of that.

Speaker 11 (01:11:31):
Right.
Challenging the unreliablenarrator, which is located in
your brain.
Challenging all those ideas andthoughts that's possible.
That all, that's not true.
Meaning to say that the more Igive to like to go into that
parent, the more I give to myson, the more I make him try to
be try to correct the sins ofour fathers.

(01:11:52):
Right.
The more he, he will perpetuatethis ends of the fathers, the
cycle will continue.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
There's a,

Speaker 4 (01:12:04):
a resistance to self help were talking to this slow,
we're talking about the Haredicommunity, but there's a
resistance to self help that'soften rooted in the, in the
sentiment of why go back to thepast, who needs to go there and
trudge up old stuff

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
and

Speaker 4 (01:12:26):
the response often is like, well you have to go there
if you're going to, you know,heal that or whatever you would
ordinarily say to that kind offear based

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
uh, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
Justification for not having healthy self reflection.
But there is, you often talkabout this at the asset and the
defect, like the truth in thatfalse hood is that going into
the past can sometimes be amisnomer.
It can often be feeding intothe, the, the, the, the false

(01:13:03):
narrator, the untrust, the WWEhad reliable, reliable narrator,
right?
Because once I'm putting thespotlight on what was, eh, I'm
almost, if I don't distinguishwhat now from then or myself
from my child, then then I'm,I'm somewhat doomed to repeat

(01:13:25):
it, right?
Where as if I kind of keep thefocus on the future, keep, keep
the focus on the present andwhat is now not what was, but at
the same time, if I only dothat, if I'm not appreciating
where I came from, what thefinch, what deficiencies make me

(01:13:49):
up.
And if I don't check that I'mgoing to repeat it.
So I need both, right?
I need the honest selfreflection, the honest
recognition of what thenarrative that already exist.
Like it or not, is it going onwithin between my ears.

(01:14:09):
And then once I do that I couldbe like, yes, that's what was,
but that's not now and my kidisn't me.
But yes, there is a potential ifI go just to the past to become
like further a victim ofrepeating that.

(01:14:31):
And just doing that with moreawareness.
I often make the joke like theonly thing that like awareness
at some point, this is theawareness alone.
Like if it's awareness withoutwillingness for, for
transcendence or betterment,just awareness.

(01:14:52):
It helps me suffer moresophisticated.
Lee.
Right.
A second.
I can suffer with moresophistication though so I can
be aware of what's happeningwhile I'm doing it, but I do the
same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Yeah.
I'm saying like that's where Ithink, I think that's where
people get lost in this wholestory telling that like this
whole story telling, um,movement, which I'm fully
supportive of and at the sametime it could be very
dysfunctional, uh, and, and, andvery self righteous.
Right?
Cause if you continuously, ifyou, if you're telling your

(01:15:24):
story of this and withdistortions and your kind of day
rewarded, right.

Speaker 4 (01:15:29):
Without acknowledging like, Hey, and I'm also my
father now against

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
my son saying like, you know, like I'm, I just, I
just shared with you this likehow many people, this is like a,
it's like a deep, uh, I don'twant to say like, it's part of
my story.
I'm not going, I'm not going toa sensor, a sensor, my own
story.
At the same time, my story isnot exactly like took it like
this truth, this whole like allor nothing truth.

(01:15:57):
My truth, I, it's really hasgone to like a level of
competitive storytelling.
You know, a few years ago it wascompetitive spirituality.
Right now it's like competitivestorytelling, which is just, and
then if you tell your story in anice, slow, meaningful, right
way, the crowd will love him andwill like say like, oh, he's

(01:16:22):
talking slow, which ismeaningful, I need meaningful,
they're going to love it.
And then the guy feels so goodabout his victim hood story,
they keys on it and the cyclecontinues.

Speaker 4 (01:16:33):
Yeah.
And I wonder if, I mean the thegreat appeal and, and, and I, I
would say like the eating up ofit is almost a way of like, let
me jump on that bandwagon ofpointing out what was wrong and
feed off that energy of I wasdealt a raw deal

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
and people don't realize that it was probably
also a lot of, right.

Speaker 4 (01:16:58):
Yeah.
And, and I want to point out,and I had no expectation of this
going here.
Like you're looking, I have thispaper right now and I have, I
wrote down like 10 words.
One of them was Manhattanteenage years and I only didn't
write father and because Ididn't want you to be worried.
I was going to ask you aboutlike your childhood and I

(01:17:21):
probably would have heard somethings that were difficult at
best.
Traumatic probably

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
and obviously traumatic.
I'm a therapist, a traumatherapist with only the most
wounded because, right.

Speaker 4 (01:17:36):
But, but somehow instead you told me this story
that still has me like snifflingand I'm going to pretend was
great audio.
You're not seeing this, notleftover, but like, you know,
you shared this beautiful storythat was packed with
responsibilities like honestyand like self reflection.

(01:18:00):
It wasn't it, you know, it'severything.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:18:06):
A good story.
Odd to be with all the lessonsthat a story should have without
the finger pointing.
And woe is me.
It's, it's, it, it's, it wasbeautiful and the message was
not, I'm so sorry that happenedto you to take away was joy like

(01:18:29):
joy for you that you can havethat and, and love yourself
through your child, but not in acodependent way.
Either.
Enjoy for your son who has afather who able to be honest
enough with themselves.

Speaker 11 (01:18:42):
And we're back to what you said and, and loving
myself for both asset ed defect,right.
To love myself for all of me.
Both the good and the bad.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
Do you want to Fart or something so we can call this
a night and we not gonna end up,uh, right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
You're, you're, you're, you seem like you're not
crying.
You're crying and you're like,

Speaker 11 (01:19:13):
it's okay.
Strong.
Mid.
Also cry.
It's the story of the bigLebowski.
We'd have to like throw that inat some point.
Also.
Really, she just told us thestory of big old basket and
pickled Dusky is a storagedecile.
Are you okay?
You want to stop?

Speaker 4 (01:19:32):
All right.
Yeah.
How much stuff?

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
Thanks for doing this.
I bet you didn't see this goingin there.
I thought we were in talkingabout comedy and like, I know I
have dark humor.
They're just, you want to talkabout about you don't talking
about that.
Not that there's any, not thatthere's any contradiction.

Speaker 4 (01:19:48):
Yeah, but I don't know.
I feel a little, okay.
How do dead babies and how doesdark humor fit in with this or
does it, or is there any harm

Speaker 6 (01:20:09):
has dark I think.
I think I do see a segue.
I think it is.

Speaker 5 (01:20:13):
We just shared something that could have been
just a traumatic memory of yourown father and instead it turned
into probably the mostbeautiful, joyful story I've
heard.
I don't know, maybe ever.
Right?
And that inherently it was the,the, the, the, the pain of

(01:20:35):
recognizing the disdain you hadfor yourself and where that
might have been rooted in yourown childhood and born out of
that like that plus some courageand challenging, you're
unreliable.
Narrator equaled somethingbeautiful and joyful, alright.

(01:20:56):
And uniting and empowering foryour son.
And perhaps in the same way thatdialectic provides the, the,
the, the fusion of humor and thedarkness, something like that's
really, really unique that couldbe born from that.

Speaker 6 (01:21:15):
I was saying, if you look at it when we talk about
polar opposites in nature, anight and day, like going back
to cliche is the darkest part ofnight is, is dawn, right?
Before it becomes a slightright, that means that the light
and the darkness, the followeach other, they're connected,
they're intertwined.
You look at the body,

Speaker 13 (01:21:37):
right?
Laughter

Speaker 6 (01:21:41):
and crying are intertwined just as much.
We use the same Bot bodilyfunctions and mechanism as it
like when we're like, you know,like quick when we laughed so
hard to be crying, right?
But think about if a person justlike their facial expressions,
when they're laughing, they useit.
It's the same when they'recrying as well.
Their body, the diaphragm, thewhole, I mean it's intertwined.

(01:22:04):
They're together.
They're like, they're there.
It's like getting, if we don'tlaugh, we cry or anything like,
uh, like Viktor Frankl talksabout that.
It's like, he talks about it intwo places, like, uh, in his
book a few times.
Like it's Uma is his soul is,is, is, is, is the soul's weapon

(01:22:27):
for success for herselfpreservation.
And another part he used thathumor is the ability is, is, is,
is like mastering the art ofliving.
We were able to, to see that,that it's

Speaker 13 (01:22:43):
to see,

Speaker 6 (01:22:46):
you know, I, there's also pointed part of the book,
he told me, he talks about youlike you, like you like gives
the example of the humor, thegas, you know, it's kind of,
it's kind of ironic that he'sgiving the humor, the grass Umer
to gas while he's sittingAuschwitz.
And one thing that's, you know,it also when you're able to take

Speaker 4 (01:23:06):
Umer Umer is like, is the ability of like, I think
Dave Chappelle said is quotingsomebody else.
It's that, it's the synthesis ofthe paradox.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
Right

Speaker 4 (01:23:18):
on the while I was very late to come in here, uh, I
was in the bathroom and Iwatched, I was scrolling through
Facebook and they have like onevideo replays after another and
this old clip from the 90s ofChris Farley on the, on, uh,
Conan O'Brien.

(01:23:40):
And he says, I want to sharesomething that's like different
and out of like character forme.
And he shares the song about,it's very weird because it's
like he's, he's doing an act,but he's sharing himself and
it's the song and he stopshalfway, um, about being, being
a fat guy and like, you know,eating to manage his emotions.

(01:24:06):
And uh, and the audience islaughing and he's kind of
laughing, but he's also crying.
It's like very weird.
Not Weird.
It's, it's like very real.
Right.
And, and I was thinking on theway over here, like I see a fat

(01:24:27):
guy and I just assume they'refunny.
I see a skinny fat guy, fat guygo.
So I, I see a fat guy and I justassume they have a good sense of
humor.
Right.
And I'm usually surprised whenthey don't.
I'm surprised when they're like,not really nice guys.
Also, I'm always like upset.

(01:24:48):
I mean I every once in a whileI'd bit a fat guy and he's like
not a sweetheart.
And I'll be like, what the fuck?
You're supposed to be reallynice because this is this.
Is that a character?
Right.
And then I'll meet a skinny guy,or even worse, like a skinny
good looking guy who's like puttogether.
And besides for wanting to killthem, I'll also, I'll also be

(01:25:09):
like very surprised when theyhave a sense of humor.
It's like that, that's weird.
You're not supposed to be funny.
You're supposed to like have itall together.
So you have no reason to developany sense of humor, a sense of,
uh, a coping mechanism tohandling sheets more than a
coping mechanism.
It's like how else to come toterms with the inherit injustice

(01:25:33):
of being a fat kid in aclassroom of over this is one,
right?
Like laughter.
Well it's not, but there's adifference between coping and
like coming to terms with theinherent and justice around me
inherit coming to terms with, Imean it's a fancier way of
saying coping, but coping almostmakes it sound like, oh, it's

(01:25:54):
like, you know, I think are aspa, I'm saying that like humor
and laughter communicates to youand to others that everything
will be okay.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
Right?
Like if I like it once again, ifmy child or let's say we fall
right, we simply on the streetand somebody falls, right?
And they get up and they smileor communicate to you right then
and there that everything isokay and that's that.
Yes, everything is, everythingwill be okay.
Everything is okay and perhapseven more so that this is not

(01:26:26):
okay, but it's okay because atleast it's funny.
No, but I think it's okay.
You know this, it's funny.
That is also an element of that.
It relieves some come somestress.
It's like all of a sudden thething that the stressor, the
stimuli no longer becomes asscary.
It loses its power.

(01:26:46):
One of the greatest things thatCharlie Chaplin ever did was
play the great dictator, right?
Cause then Hitler was like, youknow, you ever, when you look at
Hitler, he's like this measlyfive, six, you know, homosexual
looking guy who gives like thehi fi like it's right.
And I still think they should dothat to every one of these guys

(01:27:06):
who go on a shooting rampageselecting their manifesto.
It's like creating charactersout of them like pooping in
their pants and everything,right?
So, which is really what'shappening if you, if you go just
a little further, but like, butmy, my, my point is this almost,
it's more than that.
It's like it's the ability to,this is not okay, but it's

(01:27:30):
almost, it all makes sense inlight of the fact that it's
funny, right?
Umer in dark, I'm a dark, sendit like dark and refer me or
humor gives, enables me to beresilient in, enables me to rise
above any situation.
Going back to the store with mychild, like dark humor, like,

(01:27:53):
oh, maybe I'm like, you know,like I just need to, you know, a
little bit of, uh, you know,mess them up 30%.
That's kind of funny.
And I, I'm able to give myselfpermission to not be a perfect
parent.
I'll be able to rise above thesituation.
The same thing you want to dowith my as a therapy.
Like I like when you giveyourself permission, obviously

(01:28:14):
not the mess up and not be, I'mnot talking about being
unprofessional, I'm just, uh,I'm talking about not taking
yourself so damn seriously andlaughing at yourself when you
make mistakes and givingyourself the ability to learn
the skills in order to be thebest view, but going and going

(01:28:36):
back is not taking yourself toodamn seriously.
Take yourself seriously.
Right?
But t oh, not okay.
And I had some problems withhumor and people take, all of a
sudden they, they think ofthemselves too too seriously.
And going back to the Nazithing, it's directly tied in.
There's a great documentary, uh,Gilbert Gottfried and Jeff Ross

(01:28:57):
and some others made about aboutwhat the Melbourne about, about,
about the other taught.
I wonder who told you

Speaker 4 (01:29:02):
to watch that.
Okay.
I don't need it to be told aboutthat document.
Just got my own anyway, butthat's fine.
I told you to watch it.
I texted you.
I was like, Oh, you gotta watchthis.
Right.
But I don't think they say itoutright, but I actually met
Gilbert Godfrey and I, we hadthis conversation it anyway, but
where do when you, after youplay before you plays out of

(01:29:22):
Hitler and Jeff Ross's rose.
I didn't see that yet.
Oh my gosh.
It's on believable.
Unbelievable.
And see that.
Yeah.
Then Netflix.
All right.
But it's almost like someone whohasn't acknowledged how they
could be a Nazi is afraid ofNazi jokes.
Right, right.
But once, going back to what,how do we started this

(01:29:43):
conversation about yousympathizing with Hitler, which
is until I recognize how low Ican go, I need to put up phony
facades of who I am.
Right.
And I can afford to not justhave anyone poke holes or of me,
I can't even watch someone tella joke that might remind me that

(01:30:07):
I have not yet reconciled withwho I can possibly be very
uncomfortable because you'rebeing used to face with
yourself.
Right?
Like Joseph Campbell says, is bygoing down into the abyss that
we recover the treasure of lifewhere you stumble there Lizer
treasure, that's an to light.
That's the hero's journey.
Right?

(01:30:28):
And until I've done that formyself, I can't really allow
others to do that around mewithout yelling

Speaker 6 (01:30:34):
racist.
Right.
That's where you go back tobefore that's suffocating.
That's like that righteousindignation of like,

Speaker 4 (01:30:41):
you know, of.
Um, we said when you spoke withlike, like a w when we were
talking about like two and ahalf hours ago when it was still
like 10 o'clock at night, um,people will come calling out

Speaker 6 (01:30:55):
for the slightest injustice, right.
When there's real injustice.
Right.
Because it's not coming from aplace of courage.
Yeah.
They had courage.
They would, you know, like,where's that Hashtag bring back
our girls?
Nobody cares.
Right, right.
It really, if you think about,nobody cares about the me too
movement anymore.
No.
It's like it's a, it's like aHashtag.

(01:31:16):
It's like it's, it's, it's gone.
Were we, they get swept away andthen,

Speaker 4 (01:31:21):
all right.
Ernest Kurtz has this great wayof putting it.
We're going back to the humor abit, which is like, it doesn't
exactly say it this way, but I'mgonna add it.
But he like old man walks downthe street, slips on a banana
peel.
Not Funny.
All right man.
On a way to an importantbusiness meeting in a three

(01:31:41):
piece suit and anti Shay caseslips on a banana.
Hilarious.
All depends on the context,right?
Which is suffering is not funny.
Pain is not funny.
But man, taking himself tooseriously, avoiding pain, and

(01:32:01):
then they reminded that life isbeautiful and sucks.
Hilarious.
That's the dialectic,

Speaker 6 (01:32:10):
right?
Going back.
And so that's where it, that'swhere the beauty, that's where
the answer is, is they'reembracing that dial ethical
stance of like laughter andtears are the same.
Dark and light are the same, areconnected.
They're part of, they'reintertwined.
Not the same, but they'reintertwined.
They're connected and you can'thave one without the other.

(01:32:34):
Now only that life really belike, I have clients, I don't
want to have any emotions.
Right?
Yeah.
All right.
If you're saying, you know what,any emotions and like it means
like

Speaker 14 (01:32:46):
love

Speaker 6 (01:32:48):
connection, right.
You know, serenity, right.
All these other, you know, quoteunquote positive emotions you
won't even have, but even goingback, he that even in the
sadness, right?
You don't have sadness.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
Going back to, um, what was that movie with the
cartoons?

Speaker 6 (01:33:06):
Uh, inside, outside, outside, outside, outside.
It.
Not for what's inside.
What's inside out.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
Yeah.
Only through something that'smeaningful and like beautiful
exists through sadness.
It's like when you, when, whenNietzsche says like, you have to
be a person as it'd be like a,like a, a Phoenix

Speaker 6 (01:33:24):
rising through the ashes being reborn from the
ashes.
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:33:28):
It's like, it's amazing.
People like are so scared ofsadness, right?
It's pro is our body processingand healing grief and coming to
a new understanding.
What happens is, is I went backto the sun is I needed sadness
to really come to a newunderstanding.
Okay.
I've got two questions before wecontinued to pontificate

Speaker 4 (01:33:48):
because you're going to go in a minute and I don't
want to not ask this.
So two things.
First of all, I'd be remisswithout mentioning that there's
a Yiddish song.
I'm not going to sing it foryou.
I know.
How much is that excites yousexually?

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
Well, no.
The only one that really does itfor me is like the is the, uh,
the Schindler's list one.

Speaker 4 (01:34:11):
Uh, oh, I am.
How's it go?
I'm not taking Signifor.
You buy the ticket for me.
You want me to say, oh, how'sthat?

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
I'm not saying that they ever, did they ever tell
you the story of my son Yehuda,he was at, he had a kid's
graduation at school.
All the, all the kids are likemarching with her little
playgroup, ridiculous crowns,and they sing and they're all,
and they're singing the songfriction.
And there's lists.
I'm like the kid and I'm like,holy cow, how could they sing
this song?
Because I'll phase or doing allphase eyes.

(01:34:44):
They're there, they're singingit.
I was like, and I was like,guys, this don't, we shouldn't,
there's less so, and nobody waslike, what's wrong with my out?
I was like, oh, only your headgoes to hell.
I was like, no, I think, I thinkSchindler's List kill that song.
Right?
Well everything

Speaker 4 (01:34:58):
for you goes back to shins or slips.
It's like you see like a teapotand like[inaudible] like just
like each other lists.
Right.
Anytime.
I see, right.
You Go, oh yeah, that was good.
Okay, so there's a huge songthough.
Alright.
Uh, okay.

(01:35:18):
Oh, it's about, it's a humoroussong making fun of the, the,
the, the czar, how he s he mustsip tea and then it goes through
like, like eight stances, makingfun of how the czar is so
wealthy and has everything, buthe like, he chokes on his
wealth.
So it's like we're sitting hereare suffering under the tyranny

(01:35:41):
of his like taxation and likeall the things he does to us.
But what we do have is theability to make fun of him
precisely for his wealth and,and, and, and his power.
So it's like the, the, the firstone is like a, he, it, the czar
wants a cup of tea, but he's theczar so he can't just have a cup

(01:36:04):
of tea.
So instead he has like a blockof sugar pushed into his mouth
and then they stick like dropsof teeth through the sugar.
Right.
Or He wants to go to sleep andhe has this humongous bed with
like the best plush, you know,pillows and Egyptian cotton and
whatever else.
And then he has eight guards oneach sides of the door

(01:36:25):
screaming, be quiet, be quiet.
The czar's leaving.
Right.
Like the higher song in Yiddishstances.
Yeah, but I'm not sure it's song.
It's my bowel play it to likeand this thing.
But the point is, I don't know,it's not like a very like,
groovy song, but the lyrics arevery funny.
And what I remember appreciatingit was like, that's what they're

(01:36:47):
doing.
Like the czar has all the money,he has all the power, he's
throwing them like treating themlike garbage, but they have the
ability to like laugh at him.
I wanted to ask you some evenbut talked about like you cannot
have the joy without thesentence.
You don't want that.
You want, you don't want thatemotion.
You're not going to have theothers.

(01:37:08):
But how often people stop shortof that and they stopped right
at the point of sadness or angerbefore the sadness or or, or
whatever the emotion, theuncomfortable emotion is and
they numb out or they, they,they, they stopped short instead
of going through it anddiscovering themselves are

(01:37:29):
discovering the joy on the otherside and you're in a field and
you deal a lot with people whouse substances, processes,
different things to stop thoseemotions short from playing out
to their fullest.

(01:37:50):
You know that playing out andyou co wrote a book about it
from a Jewish perspective,right?
Talk about going out of thebest, right?
And they're going out of thebusiness, involves

Speaker 6 (01:38:05):
stepping into going out of the business revolves
exactly.
Stepping into the abyss.

Speaker 4 (01:38:09):
Exactly.
And, and so often we think we'reavoiding it by just, you know,
going further into the abyss.
Right.
And, and people do that in amyriad of different ways.
There are going away.
Yeah.
Right.
Maybe they think are going awayfrom it.
They think they're avoiding itin reality, they're just going
deeper in it.

(01:38:29):
Right.
And not to like get into a wholething about your book, but
there's a lot of, and I suggestyou read it.
I've read only a few books.
That was one of them.
I think you have two copies.
I have two copies.
And, and my question to you iswhat is one insight or thought

(01:38:54):
based on your years of researchand writing that book that you'd
like to impart with us?
Well, like to call I guess toquote a really

Speaker 6 (01:39:06):
smart, intelligent, profound woman, a Nancy Reagan.
Just say, no,

Speaker 5 (01:39:16):
you're an asshole.
You want me to like, I was like,fuck, I was like seven questions
into one.
No,

Speaker 4 (01:39:24):
just my, I just gave you an opportunity to plug your
book and say one nice thingabout it.
Instead you said, like

Speaker 6 (01:39:32):
the said, well, I struggle with that.
I was, I, I, I have struggledwith and if I, if I plug my
book, I take myself tooseriously, which is not true,
which is the distortion of falsenarrative.
That one has nothing to do theother as if in one moment if I
say something positive orplugging than I am on, um, on,

(01:39:54):
uh, it's not authentic and I'm afraud and the beauty is, am I
could be aware of thosedistortions and that and that
struggle and that, that, that,that, that one hand is this need
to being authentic in this fearof being authentic and a fraud.

Speaker 5 (01:40:14):
Yeah.
And maybe maybe I can Arishstart to become authentic when
I, when I allow myself meaningto say, we're talking about this
the other day about makingmoney.
I was like, do you think you'remore likely to make money when
you're entire identity stemsfrom that?
Or is that way too much tensionand control to be able to
actually do something like maybeif you come completely

(01:40:36):
comfortable with who you arewithout making a dollar your air
in a position your first then ina position to actually stop
being so damn controlling and,and, and, and able to allow
something to happen.
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:40:51):
Exactly.
So now am I willing to likeadvocate

Speaker 4 (01:40:54):
these two ideas, these two false beliefs about
myself?
Right.
And just what do I want to do isif don't want to, it's like
going back.
Well the good news is, by theway, I want to talk about my
book.
Well first of all, I don't wantto hear about your book.
Well, so there's that.
Obviously you read the book.
What I've seen even read thebook, you just read like the
front and back cover that might,I mentioned that I did read it

(01:41:16):
because of the novel, you knowthe novelty and the fact that I
read a book and I was trying tomake you feel good that I read
Menachem his book and I don'tknow why you're giving me

Speaker 6 (01:41:29):
such a hard time about it.
You're the play.
Part of it is like the realhonest truth is that the book
was written by, you know,Manasseh and put his hands keen
in books by it.
But the real truth is that Imrabooks by F and I also went by a
pseudonym called M anassen p lusDansky and it just so happens to

(01:41:50):
be that there happens to be areal, not c ompose landscape,
but he's just, he's just thedirector o f the living room a
nd j ust p ut this often p oseNatzke you w ere o nly a pseudo
name, which i s really me.
You really s pend a lot of o urtwain not thinking about
yourself by thinking aboutyourself, but not, a nd not only
not thinking about myself andhow do I be create an alter ego

(01:42:14):
a s I'm v ery, I'm basicallylike b older more, you know,
like coming r elay.
L ike

Speaker 4 (01:42:19):
I, I shared this the other day, but it's like, do you
know how much self obsession ittakes to be a martyr?
Meaning like what?
I'm like not getting

Speaker 6 (01:42:32):
only only if it's like Massada where you're like,
oh, there's like, like you, likeyou have to go tell people like
just the three survivors and youhave to tell the people about
me.
Um, but going back to what yousaid before, how many people
like stop before the miracle,before the transformation.
It's the equivalent of workingout how many people like I like,

(01:42:52):
you know, this past, this pastyear, I've definitely,

Speaker 4 (01:42:54):
are you just like really, really?
Uh, what's the word?
Buff?
Is that what they call it?
No, uh, ripped.
He's very healthy, very rip.
I'm trying to try it, get intouch with my, you know, I'm,
I'm looking at you and if Ididn't know you so well, I would
really, really hate you just forbeing as jacked as you are.

(01:43:19):
But I do love you and I thankyou for doing this and staying
late.
And uh,

Speaker 6 (01:43:25):
the point I want to make is that, is that, is that
how many times people exercise,right?
They work out for, they want toexercise and they want to
develop and they want to grow.
And I, and I followed it.
I fell victim to this countlessof times, but then they get sore
and they're like, oh, this is sopainful.
I could barely walk, screw it'snot worth it.

(01:43:46):
And then they continue their dayand their weeks and their years
and they get fat or skinny orwhatever.
And then all of a sudden theidea

Speaker 11 (01:43:52):
of comms, I was like, oh, I want to get in
shape.
I want to get healthy.
And then they go to the gym andthey bind their Nike and their,
uh, their new balances andthey're all like souped up.
And then they start working outand then they wake up and
they're so sore and they'relike, this isn't, that's just
not for me.
I can't do this.

(01:44:13):
And then like again, like theystop and they get fatter and
score and the days pass and thenagain the thought comes up,
right?
But unless they're willing toacknowledge it.
If you continue with theexercising despite being
uncomfortable, despite likehurting and feeling pain, once

(01:44:36):
you go through it, once you gothrough this comfort, that pain
you, you build a tolerance, youbuild resilience.
Not only is that pain, it's yourmuscles breaking down, breaking
down what used to be, what wasthere.
The weakness, breaking that downand becoming stronger,
developing muscle growing isthrough that pain and what you

(01:45:00):
fear the most it will, that willenable you to get to the place
where you crave because theperson wants to be healthy.
They want me stronger.
But going through that pain thatthis discomfort enables you to
get to your destination.
The same thing is true withemotional pain.
We had this idea of like, I wantto become emotionally healthy.

(01:45:21):
I want to go to a gym, right?
Like it'd be a therapist, a selfhelp book or just like
developing yourself and thenit's like, oh this is painful,
this is uncomfortable.
This is really like, ah.
And then we stop until the paincontinued and we don't even
realize it really.

(01:45:42):
The pain keeps on happening butit's not, it's not conscious.
But then we become consciousagain and then realize like this
has to stop.
We try again and then we stoppedand let me try again.
Or we'll use substances orprocess to, they get the
illusion of being whole, theillusion of being complete, the
illusion of being healthy andwhen that doesn't work or left

(01:46:03):
of the realization of like thatis inadequacy, this feeling of
disconnected and then we're ableto see ourselves as is right as
like there were that were thatwere struggling, they were in
pain and we need help and wehave to go through the pain with
go through the past in order toenable a better future or enable

(01:46:26):
to enable to us have a betternow better today despite being
uncomfortable, being mindful oflike w w what's happening and
all of a sudden things likesomething sprouts out of the
ground and then keeps on growingand growing and growing and this
is marvelous trip and thereminders like the of like

Speaker 1 (01:46:51):
she's, I really needed to lose weight or I
really need to go to the gym.
They often come not from reallyplaces of like necessarily new
year's resolution.
They often come in the form oflike rarely dark, uncomfortable
slap in the face for nine years.
They come from memorably saidthat the subconscious can be

(01:47:12):
broken down into two parts.
Your historical self or yourtrue self.
That part is like, hey man, likethis is not good.
This is not you.
You're something more than this.
You're at that party that wantsto connect to something greater
than yourself.
That's your true self that'scoming out in a whispering into
your ear and whisper like thatlittle subconscious giving you

(01:47:33):
that kiss of like, hey, we'retelling you, reminding you, you
are not this.
You can be so much more calm,calm, like he's their inner
child.
Come and then your historicalsal says, no, this is painful.
Pain sucks, pain isuncomfortable.
I'm feeling it.
We can't do this.
And then we throw a tempertantrum and then we've done, we

(01:47:53):
continue, you know like livingin the, in the, in the um,
constantly numb, right is reallystarting to ability to like to
look at yourself and to seeyourself both in the, in the, in
your historical self and yourtrue self.
Looking at books and then that,and then when you're able to see

(01:48:14):
what is, then you could decideand choose.
What life do you want to haveright now?

Speaker 15 (01:49:16):
[inaudible].

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5. We’re all a little Shtisel (and that’s okay) a conversation with Aryeh Buchsbayew

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