January 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Have you ever wondered why some folktales stand the test of time, captivating generation after generation? Join me, Vanessa Y Rogers, and my insightful co-host Donna Lee Fields from Scaffolding Magic, as we unravel the enchanting legend of La Befana, Italy's beloved witchy gift-giver. This episode of Fairytale Flip takes you on a journey through the intriguing story of Old Bafana—a tale wrapped in Christmas, Epiphany traditions, and the enduring themes of redemption and transformation. As we explore the cultural significance of La Befana and compare her to other global gift-bringers like Austria's Perchta, and the three Magi you'll discover how these narratives resonate with personal experiences and highlight the universal values of giving and renewal.
Our conversation delves into the portrayal of La Befana in literature and culture, sparked by the children's book of author Tommy dePaola. Together, we explore the evolving representation of older women in today's media, as well as the dual nature of La Befana as both a cherished and satirical figure to the symbolic significance of rituals like wood burning in various cultures, our discussion invites you to rethink and reimagine these rich narratives.
As we journey through Epiphany traditions worldwide, our exploration uncovers intriguing cultural interpretations and symbolism, such as the of sweeping and the mysterious chimneys through which La Befana delivers her gifts. These themes are woven into a broader tapestry of renewal and transformation—a reminder that even the most old-fashioned tales can offer fresh insights. So, join us as we celebrate these timeless stories, questioning and reshaping our understanding of them, while embracing the power of redemption, generosity, and cultural diversity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Rogers (00:07):
Welcome.
Welcome to another episode ofFairytale Flip.
I'm Vanessa Y Rogers and myco-host is Donna Lee Fields from
Scaffolding Magic.
I have a podcast called FabricaFolklore and every month we
come together and we discussfairytale and kind of dissect
that we look at its hiddenmeanings, its symbolism, its
(00:29):
history and what it means for usin modern days.
This month we are choosing astory called La Bafana Sometimes
it's called Old Bafana andDonna is going to give a summary
of this story.
Donna Lee Fields (00:51):
Okay, thank you, hi, I'm Donna, yes, and
it's such a pleasure to be herewith Vanessa, as usual, let's
see if we can find some reallyinteresting tidbits about this
legend.
Legend of Hotel.
So I'm going to tell you thestory of Old Bafana, which is
particular to Italy.
Hopefully, I never heard of itbefore.
Vanessa chose this one and Ilove her choices, so I've been
(01:12):
really interested in finding outthe history of it.
And Old Bafana is really aboutBafana and the wise men, and
it's a Christmas tale which isusually only told in Italy, but
let's go into it.
Tale which is usually only toldin Italy, but let's go into it.
So one night the three wise menwere following the story of
Bethlehem, as we know they did,and they stopped at old Bifana's
house to ask for directions.
And old Bifana is known in theneighborhood as a woman who was
(01:35):
very antisocial.
She baked and she swept and sheswept and she baked all day
long, and she didn't talk toanyone else.
But these three wise men cameto her house, asked her for
directions for Bethlehem and shepretty much ignored him.
She was very rude to them.
She the Magi invited them eventhough she was rude and even
(01:59):
though she didn't know where thechild Jesus was born.
They invited her to join themon the journey and she said no,
she had too much work to do.
And then later, after they left,she realized that she might
have made a mistake.
And so what she did is shestarted baking obsessively, and
then, after she baked, sherealized her house was still
dirty, so she started sweepingeven more obsessively, and then
(02:22):
she packed up all what she bakedand she ran to try to catch up
with the three wise men, but shenever could.
And what happened is she keptrunning and running and finally
she started running up in thesky, and now she's known as Old
Bafana, who wanders the skies inthe Epiphany Eve and she's
looking for the Christ child.
And what she does now is whatthe folk tale or the legend says
(02:44):
is that she visits every home,leaving gifts for the Christ
child.
And what she does now is whatthe folk tale or the legend says
is that she visits every home,leaving gifts for the good
children and for the childrenwho haven't been so wonderful
coal.
And she has a lot of symbolismwith it all, and that's what
we're going to go into.
So, Viespa, I'm going to ask youwhat you always ask me why did
you choose this tale and howlong have you known about it?
(03:07):
Also?
Vanessa Rogers (03:08):
I just learned about it this year.
So I came across it when I waslooking up different mythical
creatures for Christmas and Iwas kind of intrigued by her.
And you know I usually do anepisode every month, but we
didn't do one for December andso I had suggested La Bafana,
because we could do it in thevery beginning of January and it
(03:29):
would still be very close tothe time that La Bafana
generally gives gifts, which isJanuary 6th, which is Epiphany
Day, and so I thought it would,you know, kind of cover
Christmas and also cover apartially separate holiday, but
(03:50):
it's within the 12 days ofChristmas celebration.
So I was really intrigued bythat element.
To La Bafana was when I wasreading the story and the three
(04:11):
wise men come and they have thethree gifts that they're going
to give to the baby Jesus andshe decides no, I want to give
the mother presence of treatsand I also want to clean up for
her.
And to me, speaking as a motherthat spoke to me, Because you
know three men giving thesereally obscure gifts, although
(04:34):
gold, I guess, is not thatobscure, but in the moment gold
does not do you very much good.
I loved gifts of service, whenpeople would come and help out
with things around my house andalso when they would feed me,
Because when you have a newbornchild, they take up every ounce
of energy and space in your life, and so I felt like she was
(04:58):
speaking my language, Whereasthe three Wiseman gifts,
especially now, so far removedfrom the time period I know that
they had a lot moresignificance during that time
period when they were beinggiven, but baked goods and
someone cleaning for me thatsounded like a perfect gift to
(05:18):
me when I had a newborn child.
Donna Lee Fields (05:21):
Yeah, I love it, and you have three, so
you've had three newborn childchildren, yeah, so I I really do
like that there.
It is a really nice note in thestory that she was focused on
the mother, not just not thechild necessarily, and and
that's really nice becausepeople do focus on the, the
babies, because they're so sweetand so have so much
possibilities.
But especially in the story andI didn't grow up Catholic, I'm
(05:43):
not Christian and um, I think II take these stories more
globally, more, um, you know,more holistically.
But the mother of this purebaby was pure herself and Bafana
, even though she didn't knowthe mother, really recognized
her as such, as as a pure personwho needed to, needed to be
(06:04):
recognized as such, and shebrought her broom to sweep the
wherever the baby was going tobe born.
It really was a very sweettouch now.
Vanessa Rogers (06:12):
You currently live in mexico and you have
lived in spain.
Have you come across anyepiphany celebrations in the
countries that you have lived in?
Donna Lee Fields (06:22):
well, that's really interesting.
I think mexico is more, morereligious.
Spain is a Catholic country,but they're not really religious
.
The culture is more Catholic,but it's a very small part of
the population that really goesto church and is devout.
In Mexico, they're much more.
It's going to sound reallyjudgmental when I say this, but
(06:43):
they're more honest about theirreligion.
Going to sound reallyjudgmental when I say this, but
they're more honest about theirreligion.
They really do live theirreligion and I really do
appreciate that.
And so epiphanies.
Since I'm not really focused onit, vanessa, I don't really I
can't say yes, there are a lotof celebrations, but in Mexico
there are more.
Vanessa Rogers (07:00):
Yeah Well, I remember as a child hearing
about people getting threewiseman gifts in january, and I
wasn't from, I didn't know whatthat was.
Um, I I didn't see it, uh, orhear many people talk about it,
but I I didn't know that ithappened and I just didn't
really know much about it okay.
Donna Lee Fields (07:21):
So yeah, in spain christmas is less
important than the three kingsDay, which is January 6.
So it's the same thing, yeah,but again, it's a day of it's
more commercial than anything.
It's not religious for thepopular culture.
So when you say epiphany, Idon't think of the King's Day as
an epiphany, because that'svery religious and it's sacred.
So that's my answer hereCommercial or religious.
Vanessa Rogers (07:47):
I think it's always a little intertwining.
Did you have a reaction to itor any other reaction to the
story when you first read it?
Because I remember sending itto you and you saying, oh, I
really like this story, I see alot of symbolism.
Donna Lee Fields (08:02):
I know and I wish I had found, I wish I'd
saved that link where I foundall the symbolism.
And I found another one, but Ididn't realize when I first saw
it that that Bafana was areligious figure or that was
really tied to a religious day.
I didn't realize that then butand so I was very excited
because, you know, I lovesymbolism, but I do.
I started reading and I'm notI'm not crazy about stories that
(08:23):
are tied to one day or onereligion and that sort of thing,
so I wasn't really enthusiasticabout it at first.
But, as always, when I startresearching and find symbolism
and finding different ties toother cultures and other tales,
then I get excited and so, yeah,now I see a lot of different
ways.
And also, since you also knowthat I think it's very important
(08:46):
to look at these stories andsee how they influence us as
children and how they influencechildren.
You have three that listen toyou all the time.
It's very important to be awarethat they might be giving us
subliminal messages that may ormay not be what we want, and so
we're going to go there as well.
Okay, yeah, but the first thingI really need to establish this
(09:08):
Now, when I look it up, it saysthe Legend of Old Bafana Old
Bafana but I found somethingthat says it actually is a
folktale.
It has supernatural powers, itcomes from one specific culture,
it doesn't have a specificauthor and it teaches a lesson.
What would you think?
Vanessa Rogers (09:26):
so the title, the legend of old bufana is by
tommy de paula, who is a veryfamous italian, american uh,
children's illustrator andauthor.
He wrote a lot of different.
He took a lot of different folktales and made them, uh, into
books.
So one of my absolutelyfavorite folktales of his is the
(09:48):
Legend of the Blue Bonnet,which is very specific to Texas
because that is our state flower.
Another of his books is thelegend I think it's just called
Strega Nona, and that is Stregais witch and nona is grandmother
in italian, and that is anotherfolk tale.
(10:08):
So he is famous for taking folktales and popularizing them.
Um, and so I, you know I'm nota folklore, so I, I I'm gonna
take a stab here.
It is a legend in that it isrooted in a time and a place,
(10:29):
but I think it's primarily toldas a folktale, because I don't
believe people feel that there'struth to it.
So that's my take.
Donna Lee Fields (10:41):
Okay, I like that.
People know that there's notruth to it.
So let's talk about, if youdon't mind, how about if we
start with her physicalappearance, because that also is
very important to me, and aboutthe subliminal messages.
And first of all, we always, inEnglish, you always say old
Bafana.
It's not Bafana.
She's portrayed as an old womanwith just a couple of teeth.
She has raggedy clothes.
(11:03):
She doesn't even have the highboots that a witch in most fairy
tales would have.
She has low shoes andcomfortable socks, so she looks
like an innocuous person whowon't hurt anyone.
My question is why does the?
But later on she's portrayed asthis woman that is very
generous, she gives gifts, shesaw the light.
(11:24):
At first, she rejected what thethree wise men wanted her to do
, which is go with them andcelebrate the birth of this very
special baby.
So why is it that she had to beportrayed as an old woman who
was obsessive, who had oldclothes?
That bothers me.
Vanessa Rogers (11:43):
Oh, that's interesting.
The old element bothers you, Ithink.
I think primarily because, um,she's grumpy and we think of a
lot of grumpy people as older,even if they're not necessarily
old.
The grumpiness makes someonefeel older.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, if I feel like crankinessages a person.
Donna Lee Fields (12:10):
That's so funny.
I love that.
It's very possible and thatcould be at any age actually,
because there are a lot ofgrumpy 20, 30 year olds aren't
there, Right?
Vanessa Rogers (12:17):
Yes, and if you look at like TV television, you
know.
If you look at older shows,like when I was a child and I
was watching people who were myage, you know.
If you look at older shows,like when I was a child and I
was watching people who were myage, you know who are in the
middle age.
I feel like they were portrayedlooking much older than our
generation currently dresses andlooks like the way they they're
(12:40):
.
They portrayed themselves,seemed like they, they looked
older, whereas I feel like mygeneration, which is I'm an
elderly millennial that's whatI'm called the geriatric
millennials we still kind ofdress with a youthful flair.
(13:01):
I don't really know, but I'veseen people comment on this
trend where in the past,middle-aged people dressed
frumpier and now it's not quitethe case.
Donna Lee Fields (13:13):
Well, I think that's really important, because
when I was younger I think I'mabout 20 years older than you
and we used to think that all ofa sudden you become an adult,
and when you become an adult youhave to dress differently and
you act differently.
So we're talking aboutsomething similar, but, if you
notice, even in the ads they'renow portraying older women as
beautiful, as wearing beautiful,flowing clothes, and so there
(13:35):
is a movement to show olderwomen as different than frumpy,
yeah, and so we have Bafana,who's the same thing.
You know, she has an apron onand this, to me, this comes from
the fact that we know now thatthe Catholic Church took so many
pagan holidays and made themChristian, just to sort of
appease the general public.
(13:55):
But they had to.
They couldn't have a beautifulwoman because that would be for
them too threatening, so theyhad to make this woman who was
so beloved in this legend, tomake sure that she was ugly and
frumpy and grumpy.
Vanessa Rogers (14:11):
I found several different descriptions of her.
It says most modernrepresentation is she's an
elderly woman with a dark shawl,wearing a kerchief on her head
and writing a broom.
Most of the time she's writingit backwards.
Sometimes she's described asbeing ugly and toothless, while
(14:33):
there have been iconographiesthat show her with feline teeth
that are sharp and she has acutting tongue and a sooty face
from all the chimneys that she'sgoing down tongue and a sooty
face from all the chimneys thatshe's going down.
Grimm I'm not sure which brotherGrimm described her as a
misshapen fairy, which I thoughtwas interesting, and there's a
(14:55):
lot of different controversialelements about her, and I
thought that I found this quotefrom a folklorist.
He summed it like this she isgrandmotherly but witch-like,
the target of endless mockery,but deeply beloved, ridiculous
(15:16):
and dignified domestic, yet awanderer, weak and dependent,
yet feared and powerful.
She is an old woman played by ayoung man.
So I guess in all of theseprocessions and all of these uh
locations in italy where theyhave labafana, uh days where
(15:39):
they're they're celebratinglabafana, she's played by a
young man dressed up as an oldhag.
Interesting.
Donna Lee Fields (15:49):
Well, see, now let's go to what I think that
she symbolizes, because what Ireally like is that there's a
lot of depth to her.
She sweeps obsessively.
She's very antisocial, and whatis this sweeping?
And what happens?
She's sweeping obsessively.
She wears an apron also, by theway, so what you were saying.
There's this big contradictionin between someone who takes
(16:12):
care of the home but alsosomeone who wanders, which is
the opposite of what most womenare portrayed to do.
Mostly men are the wanders andwomen stay at home.
So there's a really nicecontradiction there that I like.
But also, this sweepingsymbolizes any of us who have an
obsession about something.
So if we're so obsessed withwhat we're doing that we're
(16:32):
ignoring an incredibleopportunity, we need to look at
that, and that's one thing Ireally like about her.
So she's sweeping obsessively,she rejects the whole
opportunity of going to thisblessed event and then she
realizes, she changes her mindand realizes what she's done and
she goes after it.
And it's described almost as ifthis weight on her is being
lifted, this weight of having toobsessively clean we could say
(16:55):
anything, obsessively do art,obsessively read, obsessively
eat Whatever it is we'reobsessive about.
All of a sudden it leaves her,and she literally flies up into
the sky, and so the weight isnow off of her, she realizes
that she doesn't have to beobsessed about something that is
fairly meaningless and menial,and that she now she's flying
(17:18):
through the sky and she becomesa sort of goddess, which I like.
So this is a lesson we learnedfrom the story.
Vanessa Rogers (17:25):
I found it interesting that she was so
grumpy and she was not friendly,and yet she keeps this
incredibly tidy house.
Who is she keeping it tidy for?
Like I know, everyone has theirown ways of keeping house, and
generally I clean my house whenpeople are going to come over,
like that's, I'm cleaning forother people, but she's cleaning
(17:47):
for herself, or maybe it's likeyou said, it's just an
obsession.
It's something that she has tohold on to.
Um.
The element of sweeping isinteresting, though, because I
found that there are theseparallels with the Roman goddess
that she is connected with, andshe sweeps away the old year's
(18:11):
troubles and hardships, makingway for renewal and prosperity
in the new year, and so that wasone of the symbolisms I found
of what the sweeping representedthat she's sweeping and
clearing out all last year'sechoes and last year's troubles
(18:32):
and customs, and making way forthe new year of prosperity.
Donna Lee Fields (18:38):
Yeah, I love that and I think that's
absolutely one of the ways wecan look at it.
And the other way is that she'sshe's sweeping for no one, as
you say, there's no one'svisiting her.
She's sweeping obsessively,she's baking obsessively and
doesn't invite anyone over andwe in fact never see her eating.
So I would you know me, I wouldsay it's more that this
obsessive need to do somethingin, instead of taking this
(19:02):
opportunity of you know, ablessed something that might
mean more to her is what I wouldsay.
But the interesting thing alsois that you were saying she
wears a kerchief, and a kerchiefis often seen and symbolizes a
trip.
It's a chance you're going togo see places.
So again, we have thisdichotomy of this woman who's
obsessed about her home anddoesn't want to leave it, but
(19:25):
she's dressed with a symbolismof someone who's going to be
traveling, Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's also the symbolismof the broom is, which I also
like, because you're sayingsweeping away the old year.
A broom also can symbolizesweeping out bad energy,
negative energy, and so shekeeps sweeping out negative
(19:45):
energy.
And look what she brings in.
She brings in the three wisemen.
Yeah, that's pretty beautiful.
So another way we can look at.
What's happening is yes, she'sobsessive about cleaning
something that's meaningless,but also if she's cleaning away
bad energy.
She did it.
She got to another side, shebroke karma, which is beautiful
(20:05):
too.
Vanessa Rogers (20:06):
Yeah, really a redemptive story.
Donna Lee Fields (20:10):
Yeah, I think so All right.
What else have you beeninterested in about the story?
Vanessa Rogers (20:15):
Well, I wanted to know how far back the story
went.
And the story is linked toRoman traditions, like we were
talking about before.
A lot of these traditions werekind of incorporated from pagan
rituals and taken by the churchand remade in church language
(20:43):
Because people didn't want togive up their old traditions.
And so the church, instead ofmaking the people give up their
old traditions, just kind ofrebranded, and so the roots are
connected to Strenia, which wasa Roman goddess who's associated
with the new year, purificationand fertility, and there was a
(21:11):
festival people would also burn,they would give branches of
vervarian, which was from asacred grove, as a good omen on
the first day, and then theywould also burn branches and
leaves and things.
I'm not really sure what thatsymbolized for them.
(21:32):
It was originally introduced byKing Tatius.
He was a Roman king, and sothis makes it as old as at least
2,700 years old.
And you were mentioning thewitch element, which is believed
to have come in during theMiddle Ages, because that's when
(21:56):
a lot of the Middle Evilsuperstitions about witches and
spirits really started to takeshape, I guess, in the minds of
Christianity, and so I thinkthat's really when that witch
look got tacked on to old Bafanaand then she really got firmed
(22:22):
up in the Renaissance period aspart of the Italian folklore,
especially in central andsouthern Italy, with written
records from that period thatmentioned and tied her character
specifically to Epiphany.
And should we define Epiphany?
(22:43):
Because you know I wasn'tactually, if you're not in the
Catholic tradition, I was notfamiliar with what Epiphany was.
Had you heard of that term?
Donna Lee Fields (22:54):
Well, I use the term a lot.
Oh, I just had an Epiphany.
An Epiphany is have you had youheard of that term?
Well, I use the term a lot.
Oh, I just had an epiphany.
An epiphany is, you know, sortof something incredible.
I made connections, or reallystrong connections, not just
something light.
Is that what you've come upwith?
Vanessa Rogers (23:07):
no, it actually has a.
Um, I'm trying to find.
I found the actual definitionof what Epiphany was, but
Epiphany and the 12th night ofChristmas are the same day and I
don't know if they'recelebrated the same by.
I think they're celebrateddifferently.
(23:28):
I did look up.
I'll find what it meant, butlet me go into a little bit of
some of the different wayspeople celebrate Epiphany.
Donna Lee Fields (23:41):
Okay, but just before you go into it, I did
want to comment on the woodburning, because that really is
very cross-cultural, because wehave wood burning.
In Spain, they have faes, whichwhere they burn it, started by
burning all the wood thecarpenters didn't use for the
rest of the year, and now theymake these huge structures,
supposedly out of wood notanymore and burn it.
And in the United States wehave burning man, and that is in
(24:04):
New Mexico.
It's a big celebration, and inCalifornia so is that we have
other traditions of wood burning.
So I like that you brought thatup yeah, and I actually had a
well, I've.
Vanessa Rogers (24:18):
I interviewed my guest and I have not aired the
show yet.
It will come in, it willprobably be in February when we
air it.
But we talk about Burning manand how, at the end of Burning
man, all of the structures areburned to the ground and part of
that is just releasing thingsand the act of letting go and
(24:42):
allowing yourself not to hold onto everything, and I didn't
realize that that was really acore principle of Burning man.
Now, I've never been, but Ihave heard that it can be pretty
magical and life-transforming.
Donna Lee Fields (25:02):
Well, they also do a lot of drugs there, so
that's also part of that.
Vanessa Rogers (25:07):
Do you know that there's a kid section, like a
section for families, so nowthey're trying to make it more
family friendly?
I guess there's only certainthere's probably only certain
sections where it's probablysafe to bring your children.
Okay, probably.
Donna Lee Fields (25:23):
No, no, it's, it's pretty crazy, it's pretty
manic and I never I went to theone in santa fe once okay, with
crowds, but it's you know, huge,huge, but it's you know, huge,
huge, but it's more NativeAmerican.
The Burning man in Californiais pretty we'd say gringo down
here, but you know, it's prettyestablished in the popular
culture.
(25:43):
What I was, oh shoot.
Now I forgot what I oh, thesoot thing.
So, yeah, again, bafana wascovered in soot and it's all
about getting.
She's sweeping and sweeping andtrying to get all that negative
energy off of her.
And it really the story isabout redemption, as you said,
where she does get the negativeenergy off her.
She does get the soot, she isburning off negative energy and
(26:05):
she literally is lifted andweightless and flying in the sky
.
So these things work.
Vanessa Rogers (26:11):
Well, okay, so you, you mentioned that there
are three different variationsof that I found like main
variations of La Bafana.
There's the one that TommyDeFaola wrote about, where she's
just a cranky old woman who'skind of, who doesn't make
friends easily.
The second version, um, that Iliked, uh, is she is a grieving
(26:37):
mother who lost her child toHerod, who killed all of the
firstborns when he learned thatthere was going to make sure no
child took over as king.
He had all of the firstbornsmurdered and she's actually a
(27:00):
grieving mother and that's whyshe's cranky.
And the third version I heardwas that she is basically a
healer, and healers, as we know,have this kind of controversy
around them because people tryand keep them at arm's length
(27:23):
until they need them and thenthey seek them out.
Right, they have all of thisknowledge.
And they're intimidating butthey're also outsiders, right,
they're always consideredoutsiders, and so one version is
that she's a healer and soshe's kept at arm's length, but
(27:44):
she has this ability to alreadyhelp others, and those women
were always portrayed as witches.
A lot of times, right, a lot oftimes they were called white
witches, which in turn, meantthat they were good witches, but
still with the terminology of awitch, right.
Donna Lee Fields (28:08):
Okay, so you brought up the like
corresponding to Greek mythologytwice, and I just wanted to add
that what I found is that shehas been cross culturally
connected to Hecate, from the Idon't know if you'd pronounce it
differently Hecate.
Wouldn't you say?
Vanessa Rogers (28:23):
Yes, that's how I pronounce it, but I pronounced
everything wrong.
The Greek goddess.
Donna Lee Fields (28:28):
I actually looked up how to pronounce
Bifana.
We're saying it the same waythat we would in Italy, so
that's good, okay.
And we're saying it the sameway that we would in Italy, so
that's good, okay, okay.
What I was going to say is whatI find fascinating.
Again, this is back to thephysical appearance, and the
Greek goddesses are, like,lauded for being gorgeous and
beautiful and aestheticallypleasing, and I think it's very
interesting that it's really theonly place where women are what
(28:52):
we would say aestheticallypleasing, for whatever culture
you're talking about Maybe notthe African culture, because
they're usually depicted as veryslim and blonde and they have
Caucasian features normally.
And I'm going to go reallywoo-woo here, I don't know if
(29:12):
you want, but what they sayabout the Greek gods is that
they were really, um, depictedas alien cultures, that that
sort of founded humanity andsort of seeded for not humanity,
and so they were allowed tokeep their physical features
because they came from figures,characters, people, um, you know
(29:36):
, living beings that actuallywere on the planet, which I find
fascinating.
Vanessa Rogers (29:39):
Okay, wait, wait , okay, let's clarify.
So you're saying that the Greekgods and goddesses were
actually aliens?
Donna Lee Fields (29:47):
Well, we would call aliens it's such a
horrible word but yeah, theywere people from other planets.
Vanessa Rogers (29:51):
Yeah, Okay, and so they looked so stunning
because they weren't actuallyhuman.
Donna Lee Fields (29:59):
I would say that what they say is the Greek
gods are really seeded, the partof humanity that are now
Scandinavians, and soScandinavians look very much
like what you would depict aGreek goddess and god to be.
You can follow that.
Vanessa Rogers (30:16):
And so, but where in this woo-woo theory?
Where are they now?
Donna Lee Fields (30:23):
Well, they've left the planet, but they've
seeded humanity, and so some ofus look more like them than
others.
But I guess the point that I'mbringing it up is that in the
Greek mythology they'repermitted to retain their beauty
, whereas in most other legendswomen are depicted as being
fairly unattractive.
And you know homely that sortof thing, and are you, can I?
Vanessa Rogers (30:48):
Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying.
Donna Lee Fields (30:51):
Okay so anyway , for letting me share that part
.
Vanessa Rogers (30:53):
I'm trying to, I'm just trying to think through
that.
It's interesting.
I'm trying to think of othercultures with different
goddesses and gods and how Imean.
Really, I only know, you know,of the Celtic gods and goddesses
, but I don't know how they'redepicted.
(31:14):
That's something I feel like weshould dive into more on
another day because that seemslike an interesting trail to
follow yeah, just sort of howhow women are depicted in in
tales.
Donna Lee Fields (31:28):
Yeah, um, in fairy tales they're.
They are beautiful and yet weakand needy.
And in greek mythology it's notlike that at all.
And I guess in the germantradition and the fairy tales
and most of the fairy tales thatwe talk about, the princesses
are not able to take care ofthemselves in most cases right,
(31:49):
right.
Vanessa Rogers (31:50):
They're either the princess, who's the maiden,
who has no life experience andneeds someone to come save her,
or the powerful witch.
Right and ugly, powerful, uglywitch right, as in this case.
Donna Lee Fields (32:01):
And yet in greek mythology they are
powerful and they are scarysometimes and they do know how
to take care of themselves.
That's right, yeah, but what Iwas going to say just to finish
this up, I mean, and she issometimes thought to be
cross-cultural connection tothis hecate, and but, um, she's
believed, and hecate wasbelieved to be living in both
(32:21):
worlds, which I was fascinatedwith.
She's, she holds the keys thatthat, um, you can go through to
change your boundaries, tochange your world.
And bifana was on the earth andthen she lived in the sky.
So she also is a divisionbetween the physical earth and
another boundary, you know theheavens.
(32:43):
Yeah, I thought that was reallyinteresting yeah, I definitely
like that.
Vanessa Rogers (32:47):
Um, okay, I was gonna talk about different ways
people celebrate epiphany aroundthe world.
Okay yes, okay, so for this, yes, okay, so epiphany, it means
the appearance of God, so it'sbasically the celebration of
when the three wise men come andmeet baby Jesus.
Now, biblical scholars can'tactually they don't even
(33:11):
actually know if that element ofthe story has any truth to it.
A lot of times the historianstry and find where the truth of
the biblical stories lie, and Ithink there's only one element,
one story, and that's in Matthew.
(33:33):
Of this telling, there arepeople who name the three wise
men, and I think that comes fromtext outside of the Bible.
But within the Bible itselfthere are no names for these
three men who come to visit thebaby and they say that it
(33:54):
wouldn't take them 12 days, itwould have taken them one to two
years to actually find Jesus.
Donna Lee Fields (34:00):
But in, you know, so it's a very important
number.
12 is very important yeah.
Vanessa Rogers (34:05):
Oh, so what does 12?
Donna Lee Fields (34:06):
signify.
Well, I mean, if can we go backto woo-woo, not before.
Okay, so 12, there are 12 suns.
Um, in each of, in each of theuniverses of the sun, there are
12 planets.
I mean 12 is a very importantnumber.
Um, the 12 apostles, you hear.
You see 12 over and over again.
If you really want an answer,I'm gonna have to research a
(34:29):
little bit more.
But, um, it's one of thosenumbers where it's inserted in
many fairy tales because it's soimportant.
Vanessa Rogers (34:36):
Interesting.
Yeah, that is something we'llhave to look into.
The number 12.
Okay so Epiphany celebrateswhen the three wise men come and
give the gifts to the babyJesus.
So this is celebrated all overthe world in different ways.
So the five main ways that itis celebrated is with gift
giving, as in La Bafana, shegives gifts to the children as
(35:00):
she's visiting them around Italy, water-related rituals,
processions and parades, houseblessings and special food.
So gift giving happens incountries like Argentina,
paraguay, uruguay, philippines.
Children often leave out shoesfor sweets and money and they're
waiting for the three wise mento give them gifts.
(35:20):
Not La Bafana, because LaBafana is very specific to Italy
, whereas most other countriesthree wise men visit children
and leave gifts.
In Spain, they have paradeswhere the three kings distribute
gifts.
In the parade In Belgium,netherlands and Luxembourg,
children go door to door ingroups of three and receive
(35:40):
coins or treats.
Okay so the water-related ones.
This marks the baptism of Jesus, so this doesn't always
actually happen on January 6th,which is Epiphany.
Sometimes it happens a coupleweeks later.
In Bulgaria, young men race toretrieve a wooden cross that's
thrown into the water by apriest.
In Ethiopia, in Eritrea, acelebration called Timkat
(36:08):
features blessing of water andprocessions.
In Ukraine, people swim in icylake and river believing that
the water is blessed.
In Romania, they have also aboys' race to swim and grab a
cross.
There's lots of differentparades all over the world.
There's 90 cities in Polandthat hold a Three Wise Men
procession.
Puerto Rico, children also layout food like grass and water
(36:34):
for the camels, which I thoughtwas really cute.
There's house blessings wherepeople mark doors with chalk for
blessings, and also there'smore.
In austria and germany,children go singing door-to-door
um, singing carols fordonations.
And then this is interestingbecause I did not realize that
(36:54):
Mardi Gras in New Orleans isconnected to Epiphany.
Really, because Epiphany marksthe start of carnival season,
and so one of the most specialfoods that is created for
Epiphany is the king cake, whichbasically is like a Bundt cake
and there's a baby Jesus.
At least in the Mardi Gras onesthat we have there's a baby
(37:15):
Jesus.
At least in the Mardi Gras onesthat we have there's a baby
Jesus baked in, and so theperson who gets the baby Jesus,
I think, is lucky.
In other places there's a bean,and the person who finds the
bean becomes the king or queenfor the day, which that sounds
really fun.
So this is a really commontreat with Epiphany.
(37:37):
Any thoughts with that?
Do you have a king cake inSpain or Mexico?
Have you seen that?
Donna Lee Fields (37:45):
Yeah, that's really popular.
That's really popular.
And what I love to tell peopleis the kings are very adaptable,
because I used to live on thebeach and the kings came in by
boat.
They didn't come in by camels,they came in by boat, and so,
and then they, and then they'dget on.
Well then they probably havethe camels waiting for them, but
instead it was a truck andthey'd throw candy.
So you know the candy is thegift, but yeah, I mean, as usual
(38:08):
, you have all this history,which is so wonderful to know.
Vanessa Rogers (38:12):
Well, I was also curious why we don't celebrate
this in America, like why it's?
You know, even people whoaren't necessarily religious at
all or don't identify withChristianity.
A lot of people celebrateChristmas as a giving time, a
time to spend with family.
They don't necessarily have thetie-in necessarily with
(38:33):
Christianity, and so I was justcurious where, where this 12th
night where the epiphany went,how it's kind of disappeared
from our, our culture, andevidently we have shifted our
focus towards new years instead,and so there's not really a lot
of room for both new years and12th night is what I came across
(38:56):
.
And, um, so there's just kindof a mind shift, change that
it's no longer Christmas, it'snow it's the new year
celebration.
Donna Lee Fields (39:06):
Well, that's interesting.
I mean, I would say it's reallyabout commercialism, because
there's a big push on Christmasand it would just be one more
push that maybe people couldn'thandle.
I don't know, I know yeah.
Vanessa Rogers (39:18):
Yeah, I mean, you've already overspent
everything right atChristmastime.
So one more push for buying,although the gifts from La
Bafana and the Three Wise Menare really little, they're not
like big gifts, they're justlittle treats and trinkets.
And um, oh, there's a cutelittle candy that most kids get
by with la bafana.
(39:39):
Evidently this represents coal.
Um, it's like a rock candythat's supposed to be black and
evidently all children aresupposed to get this because you
know, everyone's, everyone's alittle naughty, that's right.
Donna Lee Fields (39:56):
Yeah, well, I like that.
Yeah, I would say also, youknow, it's all about Americans
being so independent also, andit's one less time that we can
all get together on the streetand learn about each other.
So it's probably, it wouldprobably be very beneficial to
us to have this sort of thisholiday here.
Beneficial to us to have thissort of this holiday here, but I
(40:18):
think it's Halloween is theclosest we get to people
visiting neighbors in in what'ssupposed to be really, um, kind
and generous exchange, andthat's not even.
I think people are nervousabout that now at this point,
aren't they?
Vanessa Rogers (40:33):
there is some.
I mean, I think at one pointpeople started feeling nervous
about it and that's why Trunk orTreats became really popular.
I take my kids to Trunk orTreats because they happen prior
to Halloween and then we stilldo Halloween.
You see, I mean, I I don't seea lot of controversy, at least
in my specific community.
(40:54):
Most people I know do dotrick-or-treating and they're
not actually that anxious aboutit.
One of my very first guests,christina Downs, talked a little
bit about the urban legendssurrounding Halloween candy and
how at one point, there was allthese urban legends that talked
about children being poisoned orrazor blades being put in their
(41:17):
candies, and there was like oneor two incidences that that
actually occurred, but they wereby family members.
They were not.
They were not by neighborsgiving out candy.
It was specifically familymembers who poisoned children,
their own child or their nephew.
Donna Lee Fields (41:36):
We have to go to it.
We have to leave this behind.
We are not going to end on thisnote.
Vanessa Rogers (41:42):
Okay, well, I have a few other things.
I wanted to look at the paradeof the wise men, because
biblically this does not happen.
I was really confused by this,because in the story there's a
whole procession of theseaccompany the three wise men
that visit La Bafana, andanytime I'd read the story of
(42:06):
the three wise men, there's onlythe three people, not a
procession of people, and so Iwasn't clear on where this came
from.
So I did a little research onthat.
I wasn't clear on where thiscame from, so I did a little
research on that, and what Ifound was the Magi are
interpreted as astrologers,scholars or kings.
So from the idea of the threekings, they would have traveled
(42:27):
with an entourage to signifywealth and importance and
probably for safety, because itwasn't really that safe to
travel alone, and so they wouldhave been traveling in some sort
of caravan with servants andguards and animals, and it would
have looked like a formalprocession.
And so, if you see, in a lot ofthese countries that have
(42:50):
celebrate the epiphany, inmedieval and renaissance art
it's almost always depicted withlarge processions or parades,
and so you'll see, and so that's, there are these parades,
that's why there's parades onthe Epiphany or Twelfth Night or
whatever day that they'recelebrating in that specific
(43:12):
country to signify theirsymbolic importance.
I also did a little bit ofresearch in the gifts because,
like I said when I was thinkingabout what La Balfana brings to
Mary, you know she's bringinghousekeeping and treats, which
(43:32):
sounds like a perfect gift for anew mother and the three wise
men.
They bring gold, frankincenseand myrrh and I was like great,
those sound like I mean gold,great, cool, I can use gold, you
know, anytime, but I can't useit specifically at this moment.
But frankincense, there'ssymbology behind these.
(43:59):
So gold is because Jesus isking and his royal authority, so
associated with divine or gods.
Frankincense is divinity, hisrole as God to be worshipped,
because frankincense is a resinfrom the Boswellia tree,
traditionally burned in anincense in religious rituals,
and it would have symbolized himas a priest acting as a
(44:21):
mediator between god andhumanity.
And then myrrh, uh, because itrepresents jesus as a savior, as
sacrificing and suffering forhis humanity, which, which I
don't really know if it wasalready implanted in their heads
that Jesus was intended tosacrifice himself.
(44:43):
I don't know if there was thatcultural understanding, I don't
know why this would already bepart of the symbology if he
hadn't already sacrificedhimself, if that was
foreshadowed that he wassupposed to be a sacrifice I'm
not sure I don't it was.
It says it foreshadowed hissuffering and death.
(45:04):
Um, and so those were thesymbologies behind the, the
three gifts, and evidently thosewould have actually been
extraordinary gifts to have beengiven.
So in modern times, if someonehanded me those things, I'd be
like okay, thanks, you know.
(45:25):
But during that time they werequite important to trade and
commerce and they were verywidely seen on the incense road
and the silk road, which werecommon during those time periods
.
Donna Lee Fields (45:40):
Okay, well, that's really important.
It's really fills in a lot ofholes there.
Vanessa, as usual, I guess Iwould just like to finish with.
This is just for me, you finishout, you know whatever it sort
of sparks your interest.
But I would just like to finishwith our considering how women
are portrayed in fairy tales,and I think the fauna is just
(46:02):
this lovable character that Ididn't I didn't really I wasn't
attracted to at first, and now Iam more so.
And yet she doesn't need to beportrayed the way she is.
I think she could be abeautiful old lady.
You know there are beautifulolder ladies who are very fit
and generous, and so we couldthink of her in that way as well
(46:23):
, but rebrand her.
Vanessa Rogers (46:26):
Sorry, rebrand her, rebrand her, let's rebrand
her.
Donna Lee Fields (46:31):
Yeah, I do like that she finally got.
She finally got that she hadmore opportunities in life and
took it.
She really went for thepositive opportunities.
So that's my takeaway from this.
Vanessa Rogers (46:46):
Okay.
So my last thought was I wascurious because she seems so
similar to Santa Claus to me,because she brings gifts and she
usually comes down a chimney.
She's riding a broom ratherthan a sleigh, but she's still
very similar to Santa.
So I did a little bit ofresearch into gift bringers,
(47:08):
specifically Epiphany giftbringers.
There are tons of differentgift bringers all over the world
that are associated withChristmas, but the three wise
men, like I was saying before,are the most popular epiphany
givers.
They usually give gifts tochildren in shoes.
Then there's La Bafana in Italy,and then there's Persta.
(47:31):
Did you come across her?
There's Persta.
Did you come across her?
She's from Austria and highGermany, in the areas with the
Alpine range Interesting.
She is interesting because sheis very similar in that she is
(47:52):
witch-like.
She's similar to La Bafana inthat she's witch-like.
She rewards good children andhardworking servants with silver
coin during the epiphany season.
But she's also known for herharsh punishments, including
slitting open the bellies ofmisbehaving children or lazy
workers.
She has a dual nature,sometimes depicted as beautiful
(48:12):
and kind, kind, and other timesshe's fearsome and violent, and
so she has this like darkdichotomy.
So she um, you know labafana,she's not mean she's grumpy and
she will thwack you with herbroom if you insult her, uh, but
(48:33):
she does not go aroundsplitting children's throats or
bellies.
And then the last thing I foundwas the symbology of the
chimney, because she uses thechimney and so that's why she's
often covered in soot.
She does it because she doesn'twant to disturb sleeping
families and it connects her tothe ancient hearth gods and
(48:57):
domestic traditions.
Because the hearth I'm sorry,I'm saying hearth that is hearth
the hearth is the center offamily life, because that's
where, you know, all the food ismade throughout the day.
And you know I'm not veryfamiliar with hearths and their
symbology.
(49:17):
Maybe you have something morefamiliarity with them um, no, I
didn't look into it, but I willlook into it for the next time
um and so, but all of these giftgivers do encourage children to
behave and emphasize morality,and so, anyways, those are my
(49:45):
last thoughts on La Bafana, butin general I like her.
I do like the idea ofrebranding her to maybe being a
beautiful old woman.
I can see her being this kindof ugly, misshapen woman prior
to her redemption.
But maybe, as she flies throughthe air, maybe the weight of
(50:06):
her past misdeeds or her pastgrievances as they fly off,
maybe she also transforms intoan older beauty.
What do you think about that?
Donna Lee Fields (50:21):
Beautiful, gorgeous, love it.
Vanessa Rogers (50:25):
All right, any lasting thoughts.
Donna Lee Fields (50:27):
Nope, nope, I think we did it.
Vanessa Rogers (50:31):
All right.
Well, thank you everyone who'sbeen listening to Fairytale Flip
and, as always, we'd love tohear your thoughts and your
opinions, and if you have astory that you want us to do a
deep dive into, we would love tohear what your thoughts are
about what our future fairy taleendeavors should be.
(50:51):
And, as always, make sureyou're subscribing.
My channel is called Fabric ofFolklore and Donna has
Scaffolding Magic, where you canfind her YouTube channel, which
is Donna Lee Fields, I believe,but also she has a website
where she offers educationalresources for educators from all
(51:13):
grades.
Right, what grade levels do youhave?
Donna Lee Fields (51:16):
All ages, all ages.
Vanessa Rogers (51:17):
Yeah, thank you so much for mentioning that,
yeah, and so you can always findgreat resources on Donna's
scaffolding magic.
And so make sure you're hittingthat subscribe button.
Hit that notification button sothat you get notifications when
these podcast episodes drop.
And until February, keep thefairy tales alive.
(51:38):
Bye everyone.
Welcome.
Welcome to another episode ofFairytale Flip.
I'm Vanessa Y Rogers and myco-host is Donna Lee Fields from
Scaffolding Magic.
I have a podcast called FabricaFolklore and every month we
come together and we discussfairytale and kind of dissect
that we look at its hiddenmeanings, its symbolism, its
(00:29):
history and what it means for usin modern days.
This month we are choosing astory called La Bafana Sometimes
it's called Old Bafana andDonna is going to give a summary
of this story.
Donna Lee Fields (00:51):
Okay, thank you, hi, I'm Donna, yes, and
it's such a pleasure to be herewith Vanessa, as usual, let's
see if we can find some reallyinteresting tidbits about this
legend.
Legend of Hotel.
So I'm going to tell you thestory of Old Bafana, which is
particular to Italy.
Hopefully, I never heard of itbefore.
Vanessa chose this one and Ilove her choices, so I've been
(01:12):
really interested in finding outthe history of it.
And Old Bafana is really aboutBafana and the wise men, and
it's a Christmas tale which isusually only told in Italy, but
let's go into it.
Tale which is usually only toldin Italy, but let's go into it.
So one night the three wise menwere following the story of
Bethlehem, as we know they did,and they stopped at old Bifana's
house to ask for directions.
And old Bifana is known in theneighborhood as a woman who was
(01:35):
very antisocial.
She baked and she swept and sheswept and she baked all day
long, and she didn't talk toanyone else.
But these three wise men cameto her house, asked her for
directions for Bethlehem and shepretty much ignored him.
She was very rude to them.
She the Magi invited them eventhough she was rude and even
(01:59):
though she didn't know where thechild Jesus was born.
They invited her to join themon the journey and she said no,
she had too much work to do.
And then later, after they left,she realized that she might
have made a mistake.
And so what she did is shestarted baking obsessively, and
then, after she baked, sherealized her house was still
dirty, so she started sweepingeven more obsessively, and then
(02:22):
she packed up all what she bakedand she ran to try to catch up
with the three wise men, but shenever could.
And what happened is she keptrunning and running and finally
she started running up in thesky, and now she's known as Old
Bafana, who wanders the skies inthe Epiphany Eve and she's
looking for the Christ child.
And what she does now is whatthe folk tale or the legend says
(02:44):
is that she visits every home,leaving gifts for the Christ
child.
And what she does now is whatthe folk tale or the legend says
is that she visits every home,leaving gifts for the good
children and for the childrenwho haven't been so wonderful
coal.
And she has a lot of symbolismwith it all, and that's what
we're going to go into.
So, Viespa, I'm going to ask youwhat you always ask me why did
you choose this tale and howlong have you known about it?
(03:07):
Also?
Vanessa Rogers (03:08):
I just learned about it this year.
So I came across it when I waslooking up different mythical
creatures for Christmas and Iwas kind of intrigued by her.
And you know I usually do anepisode every month, but we
didn't do one for December andso I had suggested La Bafana,
because we could do it in thevery beginning of January and it
(03:29):
would still be very close tothe time that La Bafana
generally gives gifts, which isJanuary 6th, which is Epiphany
Day, and so I thought it would,you know, kind of cover
Christmas and also cover apartially separate holiday, but
(03:50):
it's within the 12 days ofChristmas celebration.
So I was really intrigued bythat element.
To La Bafana was when I wasreading the story and the three
(04:11):
wise men come and they have thethree gifts that they're going
to give to the baby Jesus andshe decides no, I want to give
the mother presence of treatsand I also want to clean up for
her.
And to me, speaking as a motherthat spoke to me, Because you
know three men giving thesereally obscure gifts, although
(04:34):
gold, I guess, is not thatobscure, but in the moment gold
does not do you very much good.
I loved gifts of service, whenpeople would come and help out
with things around my house andalso when they would feed me,
Because when you have a newbornchild, they take up every ounce
of energy and space in your life, and so I felt like she was
(04:58):
speaking my language, Whereasthe three Wiseman gifts,
especially now, so far removedfrom the time period I know that
they had a lot moresignificance during that time
period when they were beinggiven, but baked goods and
someone cleaning for me thatsounded like a perfect gift to
(05:18):
me when I had a newborn child.
Donna Lee Fields (05:21):
Yeah, I love it, and you have three, so
you've had three newborn childchildren, yeah, so I I really do
like that there.
It is a really nice note in thestory that she was focused on
the mother, not just not thechild necessarily, and and
that's really nice becausepeople do focus on the, the
babies, because they're so sweetand so have so much
possibilities.
But especially in the story andI didn't grow up Catholic, I'm
(05:43):
not Christian and um, I think II take these stories more
globally, more, um, you know,more holistically.
But the mother of this purebaby was pure herself and Bafana
, even though she didn't knowthe mother, really recognized
her as such, as as a pure personwho needed to, needed to be
(06:04):
recognized as such, and shebrought her broom to sweep the
wherever the baby was going tobe born.
It really was a very sweettouch now.
Vanessa Rogers (06:12):
You currently live in mexico and you have
lived in spain.
Have you come across anyepiphany celebrations in the
countries that you have lived in?
Donna Lee Fields (06:22):
well, that's really interesting.
I think mexico is more, morereligious.
Spain is a Catholic country,but they're not really religious
.
The culture is more Catholic,but it's a very small part of
the population that really goesto church and is devout.
In Mexico, they're much more.
It's going to sound reallyjudgmental when I say this, but
(06:43):
they're more honest about theirreligion.
Going to sound reallyjudgmental when I say this, but
they're more honest about theirreligion.
They really do live theirreligion and I really do
appreciate that.
And so epiphanies.
Since I'm not really focused onit, vanessa, I don't really I
can't say yes, there are a lotof celebrations, but in Mexico
there are more.
Vanessa Rogers (07:00):
Yeah Well, I remember as a child hearing
about people getting threewiseman gifts in january, and I
wasn't from, I didn't know whatthat was.
Um, I I didn't see it, uh, orhear many people talk about it,
but I I didn't know that ithappened and I just didn't
really know much about it okay.
Donna Lee Fields (07:21):
So yeah, in spain christmas is less
important than the three kingsDay, which is January 6.
So it's the same thing, yeah,but again, it's a day of it's
more commercial than anything.
It's not religious for thepopular culture.
So when you say epiphany, Idon't think of the King's Day as
an epiphany, because that'svery religious and it's sacred.
So that's my answer hereCommercial or religious.
Vanessa Rogers (07:47):
I think it's always a little intertwining.
Did you have a reaction to itor any other reaction to the
story when you first read it?
Because I remember sending itto you and you saying, oh, I
really like this story, I see alot of symbolism.
Donna Lee Fields (08:02):
I know and I wish I had found, I wish I'd
saved that link where I foundall the symbolism.
And I found another one, but Ididn't realize when I first saw
it that that Bafana was areligious figure or that was
really tied to a religious day.
I didn't realize that then butand so I was very excited
because, you know, I lovesymbolism, but I do.
I started reading and I'm notI'm not crazy about stories that
(08:23):
are tied to one day or onereligion and that sort of thing,
so I wasn't really enthusiasticabout it at first.
But, as always, when I startresearching and find symbolism
and finding different ties toother cultures and other tales,
then I get excited and so, yeah,now I see a lot of different
ways.
And also, since you also knowthat I think it's very important
(08:46):
to look at these stories andsee how they influence us as
children and how they influencechildren.
You have three that listen toyou all the time.
It's very important to be awarethat they might be giving us
subliminal messages that may ormay not be what we want, and so
we're going to go there as well.
Okay, yeah, but the first thingI really need to establish this
(09:08):
Now, when I look it up, it saysthe Legend of Old Bafana Old
Bafana but I found somethingthat says it actually is a
folktale.
It has supernatural powers, itcomes from one specific culture,
it doesn't have a specificauthor and it teaches a lesson.
What would you think?
Vanessa Rogers (09:26):
so the title, the legend of old bufana is by
tommy de paula, who is a veryfamous italian, american uh,
children's illustrator andauthor.
He wrote a lot of different.
He took a lot of different folktales and made them, uh, into
books.
So one of my absolutelyfavorite folktales of his is the
(09:48):
Legend of the Blue Bonnet,which is very specific to Texas
because that is our state flower.
Another of his books is thelegend I think it's just called
Strega Nona, and that is Stregais witch and nona is grandmother
in italian, and that is anotherfolk tale.
(10:08):
So he is famous for taking folktales and popularizing them.
Um, and so I, you know I'm nota folklore, so I, I I'm gonna
take a stab here.
It is a legend in that it isrooted in a time and a place,
(10:29):
but I think it's primarily toldas a folktale, because I don't
believe people feel that there'struth to it.
So that's my take.
Donna Lee Fields (10:41):
Okay, I like that.
People know that there's notruth to it.
So let's talk about, if youdon't mind, how about if we
start with her physicalappearance, because that also is
very important to me, and aboutthe subliminal messages.
And first of all, we always, inEnglish, you always say old
Bafana.
It's not Bafana.
She's portrayed as an old womanwith just a couple of teeth.
She has raggedy clothes.
(11:03):
She doesn't even have the highboots that a witch in most fairy
tales would have.
She has low shoes andcomfortable socks, so she looks
like an innocuous person whowon't hurt anyone.
My question is why does the?
But later on she's portrayed asthis woman that is very
generous, she gives gifts, shesaw the light.
(11:24):
At first, she rejected what thethree wise men wanted her to do
, which is go with them andcelebrate the birth of this very
special baby.
So why is it that she had to beportrayed as an old woman who
was obsessive, who had oldclothes?
That bothers me.
Vanessa Rogers (11:43):
Oh, that's interesting.
The old element bothers you, Ithink.
I think primarily because, um,she's grumpy and we think of a
lot of grumpy people as older,even if they're not necessarily
old.
The grumpiness makes someonefeel older.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, if I feel like crankinessages a person.
Donna Lee Fields (12:10):
That's so funny.
I love that.
It's very possible and thatcould be at any age actually,
because there are a lot ofgrumpy 20, 30 year olds aren't
there, Right?
Vanessa Rogers (12:17):
Yes, and if you look at like TV television, you
know.
If you look at older shows,like when I was a child and I
was watching people who were myage, you know.
If you look at older shows,like when I was a child and I
was watching people who were myage, you know who are in the
middle age.
I feel like they were portrayedlooking much older than our
generation currently dresses andlooks like the way they they're
(12:40):
.
They portrayed themselves,seemed like they, they looked
older, whereas I feel like mygeneration, which is I'm an
elderly millennial that's whatI'm called the geriatric
millennials we still kind ofdress with a youthful flair.
(13:01):
I don't really know, but I'veseen people comment on this
trend where in the past,middle-aged people dressed
frumpier and now it's not quitethe case.
Donna Lee Fields (13:13):
Well, I think that's really important, because
when I was younger I think I'mabout 20 years older than you
and we used to think that all ofa sudden you become an adult,
and when you become an adult youhave to dress differently and
you act differently.
So we're talking aboutsomething similar, but, if you
notice, even in the ads they'renow portraying older women as
beautiful, as wearing beautiful,flowing clothes, and so there
(13:35):
is a movement to show olderwomen as different than frumpy,
yeah, and so we have Bafana,who's the same thing.
You know, she has an apron onand this, to me, this comes from
the fact that we know now thatthe Catholic Church took so many
pagan holidays and made themChristian, just to sort of
appease the general public.
(13:55):
But they had to.
They couldn't have a beautifulwoman because that would be for
them too threatening, so theyhad to make this woman who was
so beloved in this legend, tomake sure that she was ugly and
frumpy and grumpy.
Vanessa Rogers (14:11):
I found several different descriptions of her.
It says most modernrepresentation is she's an
elderly woman with a dark shawl,wearing a kerchief on her head
and writing a broom.
Most of the time she's writingit backwards.
Sometimes she's described asbeing ugly and toothless, while
(14:33):
there have been iconographiesthat show her with feline teeth
that are sharp and she has acutting tongue and a sooty face
from all the chimneys that she'sgoing down tongue and a sooty
face from all the chimneys thatshe's going down.
Grimm I'm not sure which brotherGrimm described her as a
misshapen fairy, which I thoughtwas interesting, and there's a
(14:55):
lot of different controversialelements about her, and I
thought that I found this quotefrom a folklorist.
He summed it like this she isgrandmotherly but witch-like,
the target of endless mockery,but deeply beloved, ridiculous
(15:16):
and dignified domestic, yet awanderer, weak and dependent,
yet feared and powerful.
She is an old woman played by ayoung man.
So I guess in all of theseprocessions and all of these uh
locations in italy where theyhave labafana, uh days where
(15:39):
they're they're celebratinglabafana, she's played by a
young man dressed up as an oldhag.
Interesting.
Donna Lee Fields (15:49):
Well, see, now let's go to what I think that
she symbolizes, because what Ireally like is that there's a
lot of depth to her.
She sweeps obsessively.
She's very antisocial, and whatis this sweeping?
And what happens?
She's sweeping obsessively.
She wears an apron also, by theway, so what you were saying.
There's this big contradictionin between someone who takes
(16:12):
care of the home but alsosomeone who wanders, which is
the opposite of what most womenare portrayed to do.
Mostly men are the wanders andwomen stay at home.
So there's a really nicecontradiction there that I like.
But also, this sweepingsymbolizes any of us who have an
obsession about something.
So if we're so obsessed withwhat we're doing that we're
(16:32):
ignoring an incredibleopportunity, we need to look at
that, and that's one thing Ireally like about her.
So she's sweeping obsessively,she rejects the whole
opportunity of going to thisblessed event and then she
realizes, she changes her mindand realizes what she's done and
she goes after it.
And it's described almost as ifthis weight on her is being
lifted, this weight of having toobsessively clean we could say
(16:55):
anything, obsessively do art,obsessively read, obsessively
eat Whatever it is we'reobsessive about.
All of a sudden it leaves her,and she literally flies up into
the sky, and so the weight isnow off of her, she realizes
that she doesn't have to beobsessed about something that is
fairly meaningless and menial,and that she now she's flying
(17:18):
through the sky and she becomesa sort of goddess, which I like.
So this is a lesson we learnedfrom the story.
Vanessa Rogers (17:25):
I found it interesting that she was so
grumpy and she was not friendly,and yet she keeps this
incredibly tidy house.
Who is she keeping it tidy for?
Like I know, everyone has theirown ways of keeping house, and
generally I clean my house whenpeople are going to come over,
like that's, I'm cleaning forother people, but she's cleaning
(17:47):
for herself, or maybe it's likeyou said, it's just an
obsession.
It's something that she has tohold on to.
Um.
The element of sweeping isinteresting, though, because I
found that there are theseparallels with the Roman goddess
that she is connected with, andshe sweeps away the old year's
(18:11):
troubles and hardships, makingway for renewal and prosperity
in the new year, and so that wasone of the symbolisms I found
of what the sweeping representedthat she's sweeping and
clearing out all last year'sechoes and last year's troubles
(18:32):
and customs, and making way forthe new year of prosperity.
Donna Lee Fields (18:38):
Yeah, I love that and I think that's
absolutely one of the ways wecan look at it.
And the other way is that she'sshe's sweeping for no one, as
you say, there's no one'svisiting her.
She's sweeping obsessively,she's baking obsessively and
doesn't invite anyone over andwe in fact never see her eating.
So I would you know me, I wouldsay it's more that this
obsessive need to do somethingin, instead of taking this
(19:02):
opportunity of you know, ablessed something that might
mean more to her is what I wouldsay.
But the interesting thing alsois that you were saying she
wears a kerchief, and a kerchiefis often seen and symbolizes a
trip.
It's a chance you're going togo see places.
So again, we have thisdichotomy of this woman who's
obsessed about her home anddoesn't want to leave it, but
(19:25):
she's dressed with a symbolismof someone who's going to be
traveling, Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's also the symbolismof the broom is, which I also
like, because you're sayingsweeping away the old year.
A broom also can symbolizesweeping out bad energy,
negative energy, and so shekeeps sweeping out negative
(19:45):
energy.
And look what she brings in.
She brings in the three wisemen.
Yeah, that's pretty beautiful.
So another way we can look at.
What's happening is yes, she'sobsessive about cleaning
something that's meaningless,but also if she's cleaning away
bad energy.
She did it.
She got to another side, shebroke karma, which is beautiful
(20:05):
too.
Vanessa Rogers (20:06):
Yeah, really a redemptive story.
Donna Lee Fields (20:10):
Yeah, I think so All right.
What else have you beeninterested in about the story?
Vanessa Rogers (20:15):
Well, I wanted to know how far back the story
went.
And the story is linked toRoman traditions, like we were
talking about before.
A lot of these traditions werekind of incorporated from pagan
rituals and taken by the churchand remade in church language
(20:43):
Because people didn't want togive up their old traditions.
And so the church, instead ofmaking the people give up their
old traditions, just kind ofrebranded, and so the roots are
connected to Strenia, which wasa Roman goddess who's associated
with the new year, purificationand fertility, and there was a
(21:11):
festival people would also burn,they would give branches of
vervarian, which was from asacred grove, as a good omen on
the first day, and then theywould also burn branches and
leaves and things.
I'm not really sure what thatsymbolized for them.
(21:32):
It was originally introduced byKing Tatius.
He was a Roman king, and sothis makes it as old as at least
2,700 years old.
And you were mentioning thewitch element, which is believed
to have come in during theMiddle Ages, because that's when
(21:56):
a lot of the Middle Evilsuperstitions about witches and
spirits really started to takeshape, I guess, in the minds of
Christianity, and so I thinkthat's really when that witch
look got tacked on to old Bafanaand then she really got firmed
(22:22):
up in the Renaissance period aspart of the Italian folklore,
especially in central andsouthern Italy, with written
records from that period thatmentioned and tied her character
specifically to Epiphany.
And should we define Epiphany?
(22:43):
Because you know I wasn'tactually, if you're not in the
Catholic tradition, I was notfamiliar with what Epiphany was.
Had you heard of that term?
Donna Lee Fields (22:54):
Well, I use the term a lot.
Oh, I just had an Epiphany.
An Epiphany is have you had youheard of that term?
Well, I use the term a lot.
Oh, I just had an epiphany.
An epiphany is, you know, sortof something incredible.
I made connections, or reallystrong connections, not just
something light.
Is that what you've come upwith?
Vanessa Rogers (23:07):
no, it actually has a.
Um, I'm trying to find.
I found the actual definitionof what Epiphany was, but
Epiphany and the 12th night ofChristmas are the same day and I
don't know if they'recelebrated the same by.
I think they're celebrateddifferently.
(23:28):
I did look up.
I'll find what it meant, butlet me go into a little bit of
some of the different wayspeople celebrate Epiphany.
Donna Lee Fields (23:41):
Okay, but just before you go into it, I did
want to comment on the woodburning, because that really is
very cross-cultural, because wehave wood burning.
In Spain, they have faes, whichwhere they burn it, started by
burning all the wood thecarpenters didn't use for the
rest of the year, and now theymake these huge structures,
supposedly out of wood notanymore and burn it.
And in the United States wehave burning man, and that is in
(24:04):
New Mexico.
It's a big celebration, and inCalifornia so is that we have
other traditions of wood burning.
So I like that you brought thatup yeah, and I actually had a
well, I've.
Vanessa Rogers (24:18):
I interviewed my guest and I have not aired the
show yet.
It will come in, it willprobably be in February when we
air it.
But we talk about Burning manand how, at the end of Burning
man, all of the structures areburned to the ground and part of
that is just releasing thingsand the act of letting go and
(24:42):
allowing yourself not to hold onto everything, and I didn't
realize that that was really acore principle of Burning man.
Now, I've never been, but Ihave heard that it can be pretty
magical and life-transforming.
Donna Lee Fields (25:02):
Well, they also do a lot of drugs there, so
that's also part of that.
Vanessa Rogers (25:07):
Do you know that there's a kid section, like a
section for families, so nowthey're trying to make it more
family friendly?
I guess there's only certainthere's probably only certain
sections where it's probablysafe to bring your children.
Okay, probably.
Donna Lee Fields (25:23):
No, no, it's, it's pretty crazy, it's pretty
manic and I never I went to theone in santa fe once okay, with
crowds, but it's you know, huge,huge, but it's you know, huge,
huge, but it's more NativeAmerican.
The Burning man in Californiais pretty we'd say gringo down
here, but you know, it's prettyestablished in the popular
culture.
(25:43):
What I was, oh shoot.
Now I forgot what I oh, thesoot thing.
So, yeah, again, bafana wascovered in soot and it's all
about getting.
She's sweeping and sweeping andtrying to get all that negative
energy off of her.
And it really the story isabout redemption, as you said,
where she does get the negativeenergy off her.
She does get the soot, she isburning off negative energy and
(26:05):
she literally is lifted andweightless and flying in the sky
.
So these things work.
Vanessa Rogers (26:11):
Well, okay, so you, you mentioned that there
are three different variationsof that I found like main
variations of La Bafana.
There's the one that TommyDeFaola wrote about, where she's
just a cranky old woman who'skind of, who doesn't make
friends easily.
The second version, um, that Iliked, uh, is she is a grieving
(26:37):
mother who lost her child toHerod, who killed all of the
firstborns when he learned thatthere was going to make sure no
child took over as king.
He had all of the firstbornsmurdered and she's actually a
(27:00):
grieving mother and that's whyshe's cranky.
And the third version I heardwas that she is basically a
healer, and healers, as we know,have this kind of controversy
around them because people tryand keep them at arm's length
(27:23):
until they need them and thenthey seek them out.
Right, they have all of thisknowledge.
And they're intimidating butthey're also outsiders, right,
they're always consideredoutsiders, and so one version is
that she's a healer and soshe's kept at arm's length, but
(27:44):
she has this ability to alreadyhelp others, and those women
were always portrayed as witches.
A lot of times, right, a lot oftimes they were called white
witches, which in turn, meantthat they were good witches, but
still with the terminology of awitch, right.
Donna Lee Fields (28:08):
Okay, so you brought up the like
corresponding to Greek mythologytwice, and I just wanted to add
that what I found is that shehas been cross culturally
connected to Hecate, from the Idon't know if you'd pronounce it
differently Hecate.
Wouldn't you say?
Vanessa Rogers (28:23):
Yes, that's how I pronounce it, but I pronounced
everything wrong.
The Greek goddess.
Donna Lee Fields (28:28):
I actually looked up how to pronounce
Bifana.
We're saying it the same waythat we would in Italy, so
that's good, okay.
And we're saying it the sameway that we would in Italy, so
that's good, okay, okay.
What I was going to say is whatI find fascinating.
Again, this is back to thephysical appearance, and the
Greek goddesses are, like,lauded for being gorgeous and
beautiful and aestheticallypleasing, and I think it's very
interesting that it's really theonly place where women are what
(28:52):
we would say aestheticallypleasing, for whatever culture
you're talking about Maybe notthe African culture, because
they're usually depicted as veryslim and blonde and they have
Caucasian features normally.
And I'm going to go reallywoo-woo here, I don't know if
(29:12):
you want, but what they sayabout the Greek gods is that
they were really, um, depictedas alien cultures, that that
sort of founded humanity andsort of seeded for not humanity,
and so they were allowed tokeep their physical features
because they came from figures,characters, people, um, you know
(29:36):
, living beings that actuallywere on the planet, which I find
fascinating.
Vanessa Rogers (29:39):
Okay, wait, wait , okay, let's clarify.
So you're saying that the Greekgods and goddesses were
actually aliens?
Donna Lee Fields (29:47):
Well, we would call aliens it's such a
horrible word but yeah, theywere people from other planets.
Vanessa Rogers (29:51):
Yeah, Okay, and so they looked so stunning
because they weren't actuallyhuman.
Donna Lee Fields (29:59):
I would say that what they say is the Greek
gods are really seeded, the partof humanity that are now
Scandinavians, and soScandinavians look very much
like what you would depict aGreek goddess and god to be.
You can follow that.
Vanessa Rogers (30:16):
And so, but where in this woo-woo theory?
Where are they now?
Donna Lee Fields (30:23):
Well, they've left the planet, but they've
seeded humanity, and so some ofus look more like them than
others.
But I guess the point that I'mbringing it up is that in the
Greek mythology they'repermitted to retain their beauty
, whereas in most other legendswomen are depicted as being
fairly unattractive.
And you know homely that sortof thing, and are you, can I?
Vanessa Rogers (30:48):
Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying.
Donna Lee Fields (30:51):
Okay so anyway , for letting me share that part
.
Vanessa Rogers (30:53):
I'm trying to, I'm just trying to think through
that.
It's interesting.
I'm trying to think of othercultures with different
goddesses and gods and how Imean.
Really, I only know, you know,of the Celtic gods and goddesses
, but I don't know how they'redepicted.
(31:14):
That's something I feel like weshould dive into more on
another day because that seemslike an interesting trail to
follow yeah, just sort of howhow women are depicted in in
tales.
Donna Lee Fields (31:28):
Yeah, um, in fairy tales they're.
They are beautiful and yet weakand needy.
And in greek mythology it's notlike that at all.
And I guess in the germantradition and the fairy tales
and most of the fairy tales thatwe talk about, the princesses
are not able to take care ofthemselves in most cases right,
(31:49):
right.
Vanessa Rogers (31:50):
They're either the princess, who's the maiden,
who has no life experience andneeds someone to come save her,
or the powerful witch.
Right and ugly, powerful, uglywitch right, as in this case.
Donna Lee Fields (32:01):
And yet in greek mythology they are
powerful and they are scarysometimes and they do know how
to take care of themselves.
That's right, yeah, but what Iwas going to say just to finish
this up, I mean, and she issometimes thought to be
cross-cultural connection tothis hecate, and but, um, she's
believed, and hecate wasbelieved to be living in both
(32:21):
worlds, which I was fascinatedwith.
She's, she holds the keys thatthat, um, you can go through to
change your boundaries, tochange your world.
And bifana was on the earth andthen she lived in the sky.
So she also is a divisionbetween the physical earth and
another boundary, you know theheavens.
(32:43):
Yeah, I thought that was reallyinteresting yeah, I definitely
like that.
Vanessa Rogers (32:47):
Um, okay, I was gonna talk about different ways
people celebrate epiphany aroundthe world.
Okay yes, okay, so for this, yes, okay, so epiphany, it means
the appearance of God, so it'sbasically the celebration of
when the three wise men come andmeet baby Jesus.
Now, biblical scholars can'tactually they don't even
(33:11):
actually know if that element ofthe story has any truth to it.
A lot of times the historianstry and find where the truth of
the biblical stories lie, and Ithink there's only one element,
one story, and that's in Matthew.
(33:33):
Of this telling, there arepeople who name the three wise
men, and I think that comes fromtext outside of the Bible.
But within the Bible itselfthere are no names for these
three men who come to visit thebaby and they say that it
(33:54):
wouldn't take them 12 days, itwould have taken them one to two
years to actually find Jesus.
Donna Lee Fields (34:00):
But in, you know, so it's a very important
number.
12 is very important yeah.
Vanessa Rogers (34:05):
Oh, so what does 12?
Donna Lee Fields (34:06):
signify.
Well, I mean, if can we go backto woo-woo, not before.
Okay, so 12, there are 12 suns.
Um, in each of, in each of theuniverses of the sun, there are
12 planets.
I mean 12 is a very importantnumber.
Um, the 12 apostles, you hear.
You see 12 over and over again.
If you really want an answer,I'm gonna have to research a
(34:29):
little bit more.
But, um, it's one of thosenumbers where it's inserted in
many fairy tales because it's soimportant.
Vanessa Rogers (34:36):
Interesting.
Yeah, that is something we'llhave to look into.
The number 12.
Okay so Epiphany celebrateswhen the three wise men come and
give the gifts to the babyJesus.
So this is celebrated all overthe world in different ways.
So the five main ways that itis celebrated is with gift
giving, as in La Bafana, shegives gifts to the children as
(35:00):
she's visiting them around Italy, water-related rituals,
processions and parades, houseblessings and special food.
So gift giving happens incountries like Argentina,
paraguay, uruguay, philippines.
Children often leave out shoesfor sweets and money and they're
waiting for the three wise mento give them gifts.
(35:20):
Not La Bafana, because LaBafana is very specific to Italy
, whereas most other countriesthree wise men visit children
and leave gifts.
In Spain, they have paradeswhere the three kings distribute
gifts.
In the parade In Belgium,netherlands and Luxembourg,
children go door to door ingroups of three and receive
(35:40):
coins or treats.
Okay so the water-related ones.
This marks the baptism of Jesus, so this doesn't always
actually happen on January 6th,which is Epiphany.
Sometimes it happens a coupleweeks later.
In Bulgaria, young men race toretrieve a wooden cross that's
thrown into the water by apriest.
In Ethiopia, in Eritrea, acelebration called Timkat
(36:08):
features blessing of water andprocessions.
In Ukraine, people swim in icylake and river believing that
the water is blessed.
In Romania, they have also aboys' race to swim and grab a
cross.
There's lots of differentparades all over the world.
There's 90 cities in Polandthat hold a Three Wise Men
procession.
Puerto Rico, children also layout food like grass and water
(36:34):
for the camels, which I thoughtwas really cute.
There's house blessings wherepeople mark doors with chalk for
blessings, and also there'smore.
In austria and germany,children go singing door-to-door
um, singing carols fordonations.
And then this is interestingbecause I did not realize that
(36:54):
Mardi Gras in New Orleans isconnected to Epiphany.
Really, because Epiphany marksthe start of carnival season,
and so one of the most specialfoods that is created for
Epiphany is the king cake, whichbasically is like a Bundt cake
and there's a baby Jesus.
At least in the Mardi Gras onesthat we have there's a baby
(37:15):
Jesus.
At least in the Mardi Gras onesthat we have there's a baby
Jesus baked in, and so theperson who gets the baby Jesus,
I think, is lucky.
In other places there's a bean,and the person who finds the
bean becomes the king or queenfor the day, which that sounds
really fun.
So this is a really commontreat with Epiphany.
(37:37):
Any thoughts with that?
Do you have a king cake inSpain or Mexico?
Have you seen that?
Donna Lee Fields (37:45):
Yeah, that's really popular.
That's really popular.
And what I love to tell peopleis the kings are very adaptable,
because I used to live on thebeach and the kings came in by
boat.
They didn't come in by camels,they came in by boat, and so,
and then they, and then they'dget on.
Well then they probably havethe camels waiting for them, but
instead it was a truck andthey'd throw candy.
So you know the candy is thegift, but yeah, I mean, as usual
(38:08):
, you have all this history,which is so wonderful to know.
Vanessa Rogers (38:12):
Well, I was also curious why we don't celebrate
this in America, like why it's?
You know, even people whoaren't necessarily religious at
all or don't identify withChristianity.
A lot of people celebrateChristmas as a giving time, a
time to spend with family.
They don't necessarily have thetie-in necessarily with
(38:33):
Christianity, and so I was justcurious where, where this 12th
night where the epiphany went,how it's kind of disappeared
from our, our culture, andevidently we have shifted our
focus towards new years instead,and so there's not really a lot
of room for both new years and12th night is what I came across
(38:56):
.
And, um, so there's just kindof a mind shift, change that
it's no longer Christmas, it'snow it's the new year
celebration.
Donna Lee Fields (39:06):
Well, that's interesting.
I mean, I would say it's reallyabout commercialism, because
there's a big push on Christmasand it would just be one more
push that maybe people couldn'thandle.
I don't know, I know yeah.
Vanessa Rogers (39:18):
Yeah, I mean, you've already overspent
everything right atChristmastime.
So one more push for buying,although the gifts from La
Bafana and the Three Wise Menare really little, they're not
like big gifts, they're justlittle treats and trinkets.
And um, oh, there's a cutelittle candy that most kids get
by with la bafana.
(39:39):
Evidently this represents coal.
Um, it's like a rock candythat's supposed to be black and
evidently all children aresupposed to get this because you
know, everyone's, everyone's alittle naughty, that's right.
Donna Lee Fields (39:56):
Yeah, well, I like that.
Yeah, I would say also, youknow, it's all about Americans
being so independent also, andit's one less time that we can
all get together on the streetand learn about each other.
So it's probably, it wouldprobably be very beneficial to
us to have this sort of thisholiday here.
Beneficial to us to have thissort of this holiday here, but I
(40:18):
think it's Halloween is theclosest we get to people
visiting neighbors in in what'ssupposed to be really, um, kind
and generous exchange, andthat's not even.
I think people are nervousabout that now at this point,
aren't they?
Vanessa Rogers (40:33):
there is some.
I mean, I think at one pointpeople started feeling nervous
about it and that's why Trunk orTreats became really popular.
I take my kids to Trunk orTreats because they happen prior
to Halloween and then we stilldo Halloween.
You see, I mean, I I don't seea lot of controversy, at least
in my specific community.
(40:54):
Most people I know do dotrick-or-treating and they're
not actually that anxious aboutit.
One of my very first guests,christina Downs, talked a little
bit about the urban legendssurrounding Halloween candy and
how at one point, there was allthese urban legends that talked
about children being poisoned orrazor blades being put in their
(41:17):
candies, and there was like oneor two incidences that that
actually occurred, but they wereby family members.
They were not.
They were not by neighborsgiving out candy.
It was specifically familymembers who poisoned children,
their own child or their nephew.
Donna Lee Fields (41:36):
We have to go to it.
We have to leave this behind.
We are not going to end on thisnote.
Vanessa Rogers (41:42):
Okay, well, I have a few other things.
I wanted to look at the paradeof the wise men, because
biblically this does not happen.
I was really confused by this,because in the story there's a
whole procession of theseaccompany the three wise men
that visit La Bafana, andanytime I'd read the story of
(42:06):
the three wise men, there's onlythe three people, not a
procession of people, and so Iwasn't clear on where this came
from.
So I did a little research onthat.
I wasn't clear on where thiscame from, so I did a little
research on that, and what Ifound was the Magi are
interpreted as astrologers,scholars or kings.
So from the idea of the threekings, they would have traveled
(42:27):
with an entourage to signifywealth and importance and
probably for safety, because itwasn't really that safe to
travel alone, and so they wouldhave been traveling in some sort
of caravan with servants andguards and animals, and it would
have looked like a formalprocession.
And so, if you see, in a lot ofthese countries that have
(42:50):
celebrate the epiphany, inmedieval and renaissance art
it's almost always depicted withlarge processions or parades,
and so you'll see, and so that's, there are these parades,
that's why there's parades onthe Epiphany or Twelfth Night or
whatever day that they'recelebrating in that specific
(43:12):
country to signify theirsymbolic importance.
I also did a little bit ofresearch in the gifts because,
like I said when I was thinkingabout what La Balfana brings to
Mary, you know she's bringinghousekeeping and treats, which
(43:32):
sounds like a perfect gift for anew mother and the three wise
men.
They bring gold, frankincenseand myrrh and I was like great,
those sound like I mean gold,great, cool, I can use gold, you
know, anytime, but I can't useit specifically at this moment.
But frankincense, there'ssymbology behind these.
(43:59):
So gold is because Jesus isking and his royal authority, so
associated with divine or gods.
Frankincense is divinity, hisrole as God to be worshipped,
because frankincense is a resinfrom the Boswellia tree,
traditionally burned in anincense in religious rituals,
and it would have symbolized himas a priest acting as a
(44:21):
mediator between god andhumanity.
And then myrrh, uh, because itrepresents jesus as a savior, as
sacrificing and suffering forhis humanity, which, which I
don't really know if it wasalready implanted in their heads
that Jesus was intended tosacrifice himself.
(44:43):
I don't know if there was thatcultural understanding, I don't
know why this would already bepart of the symbology if he
hadn't already sacrificedhimself, if that was
foreshadowed that he wassupposed to be a sacrifice I'm
not sure I don't it was.
It says it foreshadowed hissuffering and death.
(45:04):
Um, and so those were thesymbologies behind the, the
three gifts, and evidently thosewould have actually been
extraordinary gifts to have beengiven.
So in modern times, if someonehanded me those things, I'd be
like okay, thanks, you know.
(45:25):
But during that time they werequite important to trade and
commerce and they were verywidely seen on the incense road
and the silk road, which werecommon during those time periods
.
Donna Lee Fields (45:40):
Okay, well, that's really important.
It's really fills in a lot ofholes there.
Vanessa, as usual, I guess Iwould just like to finish with.
This is just for me, you finishout, you know whatever it sort
of sparks your interest.
But I would just like to finishwith our considering how women
are portrayed in fairy tales,and I think the fauna is just
(46:02):
this lovable character that Ididn't I didn't really I wasn't
attracted to at first, and now Iam more so.
And yet she doesn't need to beportrayed the way she is.
I think she could be abeautiful old lady.
You know there are beautifulolder ladies who are very fit
and generous, and so we couldthink of her in that way as well
(46:23):
, but rebrand her.
Vanessa Rogers (46:26):
Sorry, rebrand her, rebrand her, let's rebrand
her.
Donna Lee Fields (46:31):
Yeah, I do like that she finally got.
She finally got that she hadmore opportunities in life and
took it.
She really went for thepositive opportunities.
So that's my takeaway from this.
Vanessa Rogers (46:46):
Okay.
So my last thought was I wascurious because she seems so
similar to Santa Claus to me,because she brings gifts and she
usually comes down a chimney.
She's riding a broom ratherthan a sleigh, but she's still
very similar to Santa.
So I did a little bit ofresearch into gift bringers,
(47:08):
specifically Epiphany giftbringers.
There are tons of differentgift bringers all over the world
that are associated withChristmas, but the three wise
men, like I was saying before,are the most popular epiphany
givers.
They usually give gifts tochildren in shoes.
Then there's La Bafana in Italy,and then there's Persta.
(47:31):
Did you come across her?
There's Persta.
Did you come across her?
She's from Austria and highGermany, in the areas with the
Alpine range Interesting.
She is interesting because sheis very similar in that she is
(47:52):
witch-like.
She's similar to La Bafana inthat she's witch-like.
She rewards good children andhardworking servants with silver
coin during the epiphany season.
But she's also known for herharsh punishments, including
slitting open the bellies ofmisbehaving children or lazy
workers.
She has a dual nature,sometimes depicted as beautiful
(48:12):
and kind, kind, and other timesshe's fearsome and violent, and
so she has this like darkdichotomy.
So she um, you know labafana,she's not mean she's grumpy and
she will thwack you with herbroom if you insult her, uh, but
(48:33):
she does not go aroundsplitting children's throats or
bellies.
And then the last thing I foundwas the symbology of the
chimney, because she uses thechimney and so that's why she's
often covered in soot.
She does it because she doesn'twant to disturb sleeping
families and it connects her tothe ancient hearth gods and
(48:57):
domestic traditions.
Because the hearth I'm sorry,I'm saying hearth that is hearth
the hearth is the center offamily life, because that's
where, you know, all the food ismade throughout the day.
And you know I'm not veryfamiliar with hearths and their
symbology.
(49:17):
Maybe you have something morefamiliarity with them um, no, I
didn't look into it, but I willlook into it for the next time
um and so, but all of these giftgivers do encourage children to
behave and emphasize morality,and so, anyways, those are my
(49:45):
last thoughts on La Bafana, butin general I like her.
I do like the idea ofrebranding her to maybe being a
beautiful old woman.
I can see her being this kindof ugly, misshapen woman prior
to her redemption.
But maybe, as she flies throughthe air, maybe the weight of
(50:06):
her past misdeeds or her pastgrievances as they fly off,
maybe she also transforms intoan older beauty.
What do you think about that?
Donna Lee Fields (50:21):
Beautiful, gorgeous, love it.
Vanessa Rogers (50:25):
All right, any lasting thoughts.
Donna Lee Fields (50:27):
Nope, nope, I think we did it.
Vanessa Rogers (50:31):
All right.
Well, thank you everyone who'sbeen listening to Fairytale Flip
and, as always, we'd love tohear your thoughts and your
opinions, and if you have astory that you want us to do a
deep dive into, we would love tohear what your thoughts are
about what our future fairy taleendeavors should be.
(50:51):
And, as always, make sureyou're subscribing.
My channel is called Fabric ofFolklore and Donna has
Scaffolding Magic, where you canfind her YouTube channel, which
is Donna Lee Fields, I believe,but also she has a website
where she offers educationalresources for educators from all
(51:13):
grades.
Right, what grade levels do youhave?
Donna Lee Fields (51:16):
All ages, all ages.
Vanessa Rogers (51:17):
Yeah, thank you so much for mentioning that,
yeah, and so you can always findgreat resources on Donna's
scaffolding magic.
And so make sure you're hittingthat subscribe button.
Hit that notification button sothat you get notifications when
these podcast episodes drop.
And until February, keep thefairy tales alive.
(51:38):
Bye everyone.
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