Beyond the Stage: Faith, Failure, and Finding God's Path - Christian Artist Tommy Williams Ep. 14 - Faith And Failures Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Before we get into today's video, I just wanted to
say thank you to all of the newsubscribers.
If you haven't yet considersubscribing, hit that bell
notification so that you can seeevery time I put out a new
video.
A major portion of you thatwatch my videos haven't
subscribed yet, so why not?
It's free.
You can also find a PayPal linkbelow if you want to give a

(00:21):
one-time or give a monthly tosupport the channel.
Anything, great or small, isappreciated.
Now let's get into the video.
All right, thank y'all so muchfor joining us on another Faith
and Failures episode.
Today I have a special guestand he's actually in the same
state.
When I looked it up, when yousent me the little bio thing, I

(00:43):
was like oh, he's like not downthe street, but you know it's
Texas, so down the street can be500 miles.
But so now you live in Austin,texas, right?
Yes, sir.
Okay, cool.
So now do you go by Tom?
Do you go by Tommy, or doesthat?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
matter, just Tommy.
Yeah, a lot of people ask me ismy full name Thomas?
No, it is straight Tommy.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's like when people say my name and it's
Stephen and they're like ohSteve, I'm like no, you cannot
spell Steve with a P-H.
Sorry, read your Bible.
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Was that who you were named after?

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, from the Bible yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, my parents were .
They're as soon as the guypreachers, so they're like
straight up like biblical.
Even my brother's name isJonathan Love that.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
So they stuck with it .

Speaker 1 (01:33):
So, if you want to like, open up, talk about
yourself, tell everybody whereyou're from and kind of what you
do, cause you actually are thefirst like musical artists, like
Christian music artists, I'veever had on the show.
So this is kind of cool to mebecause I am actually I'm the
pastor, but as of right now I'malso doing worship.
So music is a passion of mineas well, and so tell everybody

(01:55):
where you're from, your name andwhat you do.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, thank you again so much for having me.
I am so excited to be on thepod.
Yeah, so I am an artist, so Iwrite and I produce my own music
and I do everything except themastering.
So all the instruments that youhear in my music as of right
now is all done by me, and it isa lot of work, but it is

(02:19):
absolutely incredible and itstretches you.
It challenges you to grow inareas that you didn't think that
you would need to, and so I'msuper thankful to have my hand
in all the pots in that way.
But it means that I read a lotof scripture and I try to write
about the human experience andhow we are constantly in need of

(02:43):
God in different areas in ourlife, and I like to focus on how
we need God in our pain and inour suffering and our desperate
need for His healing and for Histouch and His presence in our
life.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
So you told me a little bit in your bio that you
started off in Spokane,Washington, first right.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
I'm originally from well.
Originally only for a few years.
Originally from California.
We moved out to Spokane,washington, and then we moved to
Texas around in 2017.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Okay.
And when you say we was thatlike with your parents or did
you?
Were you married, like, how oldare you?
I didn't even ask that question?

Speaker 2 (03:22):
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
I'm 21.
Oh, 21.
So you got a lot of wisdomright.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Dude no no, no, no, no.
I try, but it is.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
The weirdest and I say that and people think I'm
joking, but I'm about to turn 40.
But when I came to this churchin 2020, almost every single
person was like my parents' ageor older, but godly wisdom would
flow out of my mouth.
Like how are you supposed todisciple people who have lived
an entire life?
Like I do not take for grantedor or or ingest about?
Like younger people raising upand leading the older people?
Like that is the nextgeneration.

(03:57):
You are the next generation ofleaders like you are the next
pillars in the church and it'sbeing formed right now before
our very eyes.
And sometimes people look pastthat and think you have nothing
to offer, think like you can'tspeak into my life, when
sometimes, if they would just bequiet long enough, they'd
realize that the most wisdom isflowing from the youngest source
.
Let that sink in for a second.
Thank you for thatencouragement.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
No, yeah, and I find it's often especially being a
songwriter to chase this littletangent real quick.
It's often scary because you'resupposed to be writing about
stuff that is beyond your years.
You're talking about pain andsuffering, and a lot of older
people might look and say whatdo you know about the human

(04:39):
experience?
You're 21.
But at the same time, we allhave experienced everything that
.
What does Solomon say?
There's nothing new under thesun, and our whole life is
toiling, according toEcclesiastes.
So I might not have gonethrough as much toiling as
someone 40, for example, but wehave all gone through the same

(05:01):
toil in some way or fashion.
And so I try to articulate thehuman toiling experiences, as
against all moods say, to thebest of my abilities.
But yes, I am from Austin.
I moved with my parents.
And when I was I was headinginto high school was around the

(05:23):
age.
So that's a tough transitionpoint because most people have
already formed their friendgroups or their people.
They've got their space.
I didn't, and so moving fromWashington State mountains,
fresh air, big outdoor communityinto central Texas, it's just a

(05:46):
different experience.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
I went through the same thing a little bit when I
was growing up.
I was kind of how you were.
I was born in Arkansas Don'ttell nobody, but I was there for
a couple of years and then myparents because they're pastors
they moved to Missouri and thenin that same town in Missouri
for those 10 years.
Then they went and moved to aplace called Palestine which, if

(06:09):
you've heard of Adrian Peterson, you put watch football at all.
Adrian Peterson.
I went to high school with him,oh wow yeah, that is awesome.
That's my claim to fame, yeah,yeah.
And so we moved there and itwas like I was going into
seventh and eighth grade, sojunior high and school, like I
was the new kid andunestablished in the community
and kind of had to relearn.

(06:29):
So I understand that experiencevery well and the funny thing
is like I don't know if you havekids yet or not.
Are you married?
You have kids.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
No, not yet.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah, prolong it as long as you can.
But, like my son now, when wetook this church in longview, he
was going from the, I think,the sixth grade into the seventh
grade.
So it's like history kind ofrepeated itself and it wasn't
like, yeah, we were trying to,it's just it ended up being so.
I was able to, like help myteen, my my newly teenage boy,

(06:59):
go through a transition andweird stuff in his life that I
actually went through myself anddidn't mean to, but in a way it
kind of gave me a new outlookand perspective that I could
actually help my teenager.
So, wow, if you will, let's,that is awesome.
Let's kind of start back at thebeginning.
So what is it that got you?
Like, were you always with aninstrument in your hand?

(07:20):
Like for me, for instance, likeI'm a musician, all of my aunts
and uncles on my dad's side,everybody sings, everybody plays
.
Like we went to a I think itwas a 60 year wedding
anniversary for my grandparentsand everybody played.
We rotated instruments out Likewe just we set up speakers.
We had a blast.
Like it was out, it's in farmcountry and we just had a blast.

(07:42):
So what's your history withmusic?
Like, like where did you getthat from?
Where did you get that passionfrom?

Speaker 2 (07:48):
yeah, so actually my grandpa builds guitars out in
california and that played ahuge instrumental pun intended
role in my life and Iexperienced music from him.
My dad and my grandpa wouldbuild guitars for each one of
the grandkids or relatives oh,that's cool played guitar and so

(08:08):
I have my guitar over here,it's you know, in a case, and I
still record with it and I stillplay it and I don't, I don't
play on stage with it.
It's it.
I want to keep it in pretty,pretty good shape as much as
possible.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
So so you like have it lock and key and you're like
keeping it but you record withit.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, okay, all right yeah, and and it is.
It played a huge role, role inmy musical journey, because I
saw my siblings getting guitar,I saw my dad get a guitar and I
saw my cousins get a guitar andlike I want a guitar, because
this is the the thing in thefamily to get you know, like I
want to do this and I I loved it.

(08:48):
And I have a very specificmemory of when I was like like
maybe 10, like playing something.
It just sounded awful, but Iwas like this is the best thing
ever and I and I go upstairs andshow my dad like dad, listen,
I'm like playing this awfulthing.
He's like you sound great.
Now, looking back, I was like Imust have sounded horrible but

(09:10):
you had a support system.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
That's awesome support system.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Does your dad play too?

Speaker 1 (09:15):
and your siblings like do all, is everybody
playing?

Speaker 2 (09:17):
really, yes, my, my oldest sister plays, my brother,
my oldest brother plays.
And then I have one more sisterI'm the baby plays.
And then I have one more sister, I'm the baby of the family.
So I have one more sister aboveme.
She played ukulele.
She's learning guitar right now.
She was a little bit more, Iwould say naturally, like just
by ear.
She could just pick stuff up.
So she would like picksomething up on the piano.
I had to work a little bitharder.

(09:39):
I would say she's, she just allaround, is more naturally
gifted than I am in everything.
She's, she just all around, ismore naturally gifted than I am
in everything.
Sort of sort of aggravating but, she's the more naturally
gifted and.
But yeah, so all of my mysiblings do music or some way
the only member of my family whodoesn't really do music as my
mom.
But besides that we're allpretty musical and that that

(10:02):
Jane passed down to us.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Now, as all your besides your parents and
yourself are your siblings inAustin as well.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
My brother and the sister right above me is Okay.
Yeah, so my oldest sister isout in California.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Couldn't you have like a family band or have them
on your album and you wouldn'thave to play your own
instruments anymore.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
We could?

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, put them to work, make them work for you.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Make a Williams family choir.
See there you go man, we'llworship album but it's just
y'all yeah, well, I was I one ofthe projects I want to do, that
I have locked in my mind that Iguess this would be the first
kind of inkling of.
It is just like around thecampfire.
I'm really inspired by rentcollective and they have this
around the campfire album, thevolume one, volume two, and I

(10:49):
thought I've always wanted to dosomething like that, so just
kind of in the background orbackyard feel now have you yeah
we can do the williams familychoir then that'd be awesome.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Have you had like a full ep or full like album come
out yet?
Like, have you gotten that far?
Are you just releasing littlebits and pieces there?

Speaker 2 (11:06):
yeah, so I in 2023.
I released like a christmasalbum ep but that is a little
bit more outdated compared towhere my, where my abilities are
now and and stuff like that.
I mean, I'm 21, right like you,you advance a lot in two years.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Especially doing it all the time.
Yeah, now, did you do thetraditional Christmas or did you
like make up your own Christmassongs?

Speaker 2 (11:32):
I made two Christmas songs or three and then I kind
of messed around with oh HolyNight and then it was kind of
like a really short song as likethe final song.
So a lot of it was created andand I I personally absolutely
adore christmas music.
It is like a big part of like,even though I I hate playing

(11:55):
sometimes the christmas songbecause they're they're you.
You only play them like onetime a year and it's always like
you're having to relearn them,but I just love them.
So this was a very specialspecial place in my heart for
this, for this ep, even thoughit's a little more outdated so
you started?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
you said you started writing music in 2020.
Yeah, so what was it in yourlife that they?
Obviously you have thebackground of your grandpa
making guitars, like everybody'sgetting some.
So there's obvious, likesomebody doesn't just make
guitars without the love of aguitar, like they chose that for
a reason.
There's a there's a reasonbehind what he was doing.

(12:33):
And then you said your dad hadthe love family's getting
guitars.
What is it that made youfinally like, okay, I'm about to
start writing something.
Like I want to actually, I wantto make something out of this
and not just own a guitar.
I want to put it to work.
Like what was it that got youonto that track?
Like, where was your mind atwhen you started that?

Speaker 2 (12:53):
This is.
This is where the Lordpivotally changed my life.
He it actually kind of startedwhen we moved here to Texas, to
the Austin area.
We ended up moving here Ididn't know anyone, and so,
rather than we moved in thesummer which is a bad time to
move in Texas but we we movedhere and I found myself with

(13:18):
time and no one to spend it withexcept my family and, as you
know, when you're in 2020, likekind of stuck with family or
even before, but again notknowing a bunch of people, it
was just I didn't have a lot ofstuff to do with my time, and so
I started playing guitar and Istarted getting really a lot

(13:39):
better at guitar.
And then my next desire was tosing.
And then, at my church, I hadpeople who equipped me and
believed in me and camealongside of me to sing.
And then my next desire was tosing.
And then, at my church, I hadpeople who equipped me and
believed in me and and camealongside of me to sing.
And then my next desire was towrite songs, and I was scared, I
was terrified, because I'm likeI.
I we've all seen the personwho's singer, song writer, in

(13:59):
their Instagram bio and I'm likeI don't want to be that person.
And now I am that person.
But I I found myself veryexcited to pursue that and my,
my buddy who, who was also intosongwriting and music and stuff,
he found out Ryan Tedder, whowas the lead singer for One

(14:21):
Republic, was doing kind of amaster class on songwriting and
production.
And I was like, oh, this is mydoor in and me and my fan were
just talking about this theother day, how grateful we were
for that class, because eventhough I had no idea the impact
it would have on my life, evenrecently I was re-watching it

(14:42):
just to try to pick up some morestuff now from where I am now
versus previously, and it hasplayed a pivotal role and even
my parents just paying for itand coming alongside me in that
and because they had no ideathat that was a huge desire in
my heart.
That wasn't something I wasreally communicating, I was, it

(15:04):
just kind of came out of leftfield.
I was like, hey, my buddy saidthat he's doing this class, I
would like to do it too and theypaid for it and that was just
something that was a huge, hugepillar in my life.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
So let's pause right here for a second.
Like, let's say, somebody'slistening and they see you and
they're thinking about doing thesame thing.
Like what was it in that classor that was going through your
mind.
Like what was it that finallymade you like, okay, this, I'm
going to try this?
And it gave you courage to tryit.
Like what was it in that class?
It's like, okay, this gave methe tools.

(15:37):
Do you remember some like keythings that kind of helped the
juices start flowing or the ballrolling, whatever it was like.
Would you mind sharing thatwith, like somebody who may be
on the edge?

Speaker 2 (15:46):
there.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
And they're like I kind of want to do it, but I
don't know if I can.
I don't believe in myself, Idon't have the skillset, I don't
.
I don't have this, I don't.
You know, we always go down thenegative rabbit trail.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, I would say you're always going to be
terrible at something at thebeginning, so don't let that
stop you.
You're, whenever you become aparent, you're not going to be
just the most amazing parent outthe bat.
You're going to be learning,yeah, and when you are learning
an instrument, it isn'tsomething that you can just pick
up.
For most people and just belike oh, I'm a professional

(16:17):
guitar player now.
Yeah, like it takes dedicationand time, and you not a lot of
us, me included we have a hardtime starting something because
we're worried we're going tofail, when actually that's not
at all what the Lord tells us todo in our life.
He says continue to do this,lean on me and I will get you

(16:42):
through, even though you'regoing to fail.
Think about our life with sin.
He never called us to be aperfect person, but he
recognized our flaws and gave ussomething that was sufficient,
which is Jesus for our sin.
So when we pursue something, weare afraid of failing, someone
can say the same thing for beinga Christian.

(17:03):
I don't want to be a Christianbecause I can't be perfect like
my pastor.
I can't be perfect like them.
Well, good thing that Jesuscame into our story and filled
where we were imperfect, wherewe are imperfect.
So I would say follow the sameexample of what it means to be a

(17:23):
Christian Pursue despite ourfailures.
Pursue despite when we're goingto fall.
When we show people a song andthey're going to be like that
was a horrible song, just keeppressing in.
Keep pressing in, you're goingto get better.
This is something that reallystuck out to me in the class.

(17:43):
Ryan Tedder says says suckenough.
Suck enough where you're notperfect at it, where you're not
just mr I can play anything onpiano or anything in every
single instrument but where youknow enough, where you're
proficient and you're you'regood at it, but where you still
stumble into something that'sbeautiful because you you made a

(18:05):
mistake and you're like, oh,actually, that was, that was a
really cool move that I didn'texpect this song to take, but
now I'm going to go that way.
Yeah, suck enough, but not toomuch, right.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I had an art teacher that kind of had that same
philosophy in high school or no.
She was junior high, seventhand eighth grade and she was.
She would always say, likewhatever you end up making, just
flow with it and just make itinto something beautiful, just
keep going, don't stop, don'tget upset, don't get frustrated,
just keep going, because younever know what can happen on
the other side.
I like that.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
That's good advice.
Amen so good.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Now let me ask you this I know you are a Christian,
obviously I will.
When I post this video, I willgive all your links to wherever
you want.
If you've got a website,youtube channel, tiktok, all
that stuff, so everybody canfind you.
And I highly suggest everybodywho is listening or watching, if
you're on YouTube, click someof the links and just scroll
through them.
This guy, he's got the stuff.

(19:00):
Like I was getting chill bumpsBefore I was waiting, waiting
him to get on the call.
I was just like man, lord, ishe's going to be my worship
leader or what?
But but like, okay, so it's.
It's very tempting as a artist,a musician, a singer, a
songwriter, to go the other way.
Or maybe not go the other wayand make more money, but kind of

(19:23):
talk about God but not reallyaddress any issues, not really
talk about things head on, notreally deal with sin, not really
come from a biblical standpoint, but just be Christian enough
to be underneath a label.
You know what I mean.
So what, what has what has setthat?
And I think I think I know theanswer, but you'd be surprised,
right.
Like what has helped you stayon that path?

(19:45):
Or what has even like what madeyou go on that path of actually
being like an actual Christianartist, not an artist that is a
Christian?

Speaker 2 (19:55):
I would say the Lord gave me no choice, because that
wasn't.
That wasn't my plan.
A lot of people might not knowthis.
I was telling myself before Ifelt, called I'm going to be the
next Ed Sheeran, Like I'm goingto sell out Wembley, Like this
is my goal.
And what I didn't realize is mygoal was to make my name known.

(20:18):
Yeah, I was trying to do it formy own glory, because I have
this from my own glory.
because I have this, because weall have this deep longing to
know that we belong or to knowthat we're valuable, or to know
that we have something that tooffer to the world, and I was

(20:41):
trying to fill it through my ownability to be a great musician,
to be the next Ed Sheeran yeah.
But what changed is when I wasout in a ministry out in
Colorado.
It's called Wind River.
Shout out, wind River.
I love y'all.
It's a great ministry.
It's like a family camp.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
And I was working there and one random night night
I had already sent an EP to myproducer to produce.
Thankfully he didn't start ityet, but I felt the Lord tug on
my heart and tell me I don'twant you to write love songs to
girls, I want you to write lovesongs to me.
And in that moment I just knewoh my God, if I continue with

(21:24):
the direction that I'm going, Iam being disobedient.
And then I had a deep, deepconviction to just stop in my
place and go a differentdirection, because I knew that
that's what God, the King of theuniverse, was calling me to do.

(21:45):
And if I didn't do that, Iwould be telling God to go to
the other side of the room.
I'm going to go my own way andjust shoving Him away, and
that's not at all what I wanted.
I knew that's not what I wascalled to do.
I was called to advance thekingdom of God and through His

(22:07):
Holy Spirit he would equip me.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, that right there says a lot about character
, and I actually just preached amessage this past Sunday about
the cost of following Christ.
Like when we follow Jesus, whenwe say, not my will but yours,
it should cost us something.
Like we shouldn't be allrainbows and butterflies and
like, oh, everything's gonna begreat and good.
No, when you follow christ, itcosts you.

(22:30):
When you follow the way of thefather, it will cost you.
Now the end result is muchbetter.
Like his plan is better thanours.
His wisdom is high.
You know his thoughts are aboveour thoughts like that's that's
not what I'm talking against,but our human nature.
Like making our name knowninstead of his name known.
I mean even saul, that wasanointed.

(22:50):
King he was.
I think it was in first samuelsomething I just read it this
sunday but he was saying that,like you, you have made your
name known, but I'm gonna stripyou of everything because you,
you were anointed, you werecalled to be the king, but yet
you would not follow what I toldyou to follow.
You begin to do things outsideof what God wanted him to do and
do it his own way, and so Godbegan to.

(23:12):
Okay, if that's what you want,then you're going to, you're
going to have to lay in the bedthat you made, and so I've been
in that place where I have ranfrom God and the call of my life
because I wanted to do it myway.
I thought that I had it allfigured out, you know, and even
though I have charisma and Ihave like people skills, that

(23:32):
carries you only so far untilyou crash and burn because God
wants you to get back on hispath.
So I'm glad I, I I honor youand actually having the wisdom
and the hunger for the path thatGod has for you, because that's
very hard to walk away from,especially when you begin to see

(23:53):
the opportunity in the otherdirection.
That's not necessarily a baddirection, but it's not the
direction you were called to,and so that's very awesome.
So you mentioned it a little bitwhen we started about your
music talking to people throughthe pain.
One of the big ones that, as apastor, I hear a lot about is
like unanswered questions, allright.

(24:15):
So your music it talks topeople in pain, unanswered
prayers.
Why is it important to you thatthat is your kind of your
writing model of songs that youput out Like?
Why is that important to you?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, there's two aspects.
I will go personal first, thenscripture.
Personal I want to write aboutthings that are important to me,
not only important to God, butalso important to me and people
going through pain and sufferingis important to me, and being

(24:53):
able to write about my own painand suffering is important to me
, and I think that that's themost pressing question people
have right now.
Question people have right now,I mean, like ask any atheist,
why aren't you a Christian?
They might answer a fewdifferent things, but one of the
common things might be.

(25:13):
It probably is there's pain andsuffering in this world, and
what I want people to see isthat pain and suffering doesn't
mean that there isn't a good Godand it actually God allows pain
and suffering doesn't mean thatthere isn't a good God, and
actually God allows pain andsuffering to drive us to his
heart, because we need torealize that we are not
sufficient on our own.

(25:34):
We need God, and often pain andsuffering is a tool that God
uses to drive us back to him andto show us hey, we have a need
and it is our Father in heavenand God himself.
This is kind of the scripturepart.
God himself says that herecognizes our suffering also

(25:59):
and the fact that Jesus took onour suffering on the cross, not
just our sins, but the wholeexperience, our suffering, our
pain, because by his wounds.
Right, it says we're healed inIsaiah so, but that doesn't mean
that it's just an instantaneousoh boom, I'm healed, I'm
Christian now, everything isa-okay.
I'm bougie, you know like?

(26:19):
No, we are Bougie.
Might've not been the rightword, but we are.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
No, it kind of is.
So we are because you mighthave not been the right word.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
No, it kind of is, yeah, like we're this fancy
Christian now, you know?
No, it is.
Often.
The Lord works through time andtime and time and time and he
heals us through our proximityand just growing close to him
and seeing our need for him andseeing how he satisfies every
need.
Because the psalm says in yourpresence is the fullness of joy.

(26:49):
And I have and this, this partsummary I have all the pleasures
in you.
And and when we see that we seeour pain is suffering on the
cross in jesus, the fact thatour fullness of joy is found in
Jesus and we can have whateverpleasure we want in Jesus, not

(27:11):
whatever pleasure we want, butwhatever pleasure he has is ours
to gain and he cares for us inthat way.
And he also cares for the widowat the I'm sorry, the woman at
the well.
He cares for her widow at theI'm sorry, the woman at the well
.
He cares for her and hersuffering and her bad decisions.

(27:31):
He cares for her.
He cares for the woman of theblood discharge.
He cares for her and her painand her suffering.
He cares for the mom who losther kid and he goes in and he
interrupts that funeral andthey're carrying that child out
and she sees Jesus come in andchange their story.

(27:51):
That God cares about our painand suffering, because we were
never meant to experience painand suffering, but we brought
that in and he wants to changethat in the world and that is a
part of the reason why he'scoming back is to set everything
to right.
He said everything to how it'smeant to be.
I think CS Lewis, just out ofthis world, summarized it

(28:17):
perfectly in this one littlephrase about Aslan, where he
says wrong will be made rightwhen Aslan comes in sight.
It's like when Jesus comes back, all of our pain and suffering
will be healed fully and thatmoment will be just an
instantaneous healing.

(28:38):
It's going to be a coolexperience, but until then, I
want to show people that there'spurpose in pain, yeah, and that
there's a healer who caresabout our pain.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Now, when you're writing these songs and you're
speaking to people about theirpain, you're speaking to people
about their suffering.
So you kind of touched on it alittle bit.
But how do you, as a writer,how do you make sure that you
stay in the confines ofscripture, like you just kind of
said a little bit, but likeit's, it's, it can be easy to
write a song about a certaintopic, but then you have the
parameters of like okay, I needto, I need to have the scripture

(29:15):
, but like it brings anotherdynamic to it that you have to
like.
Okay, this, this has got towork this way because of
scripture.
Like, how do you stay on taskwith that?

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, you're so right .
It is hard sometimes becausethere is this perfect God and
we're in this imperfect worldand I want to show the contrast
of those things.
But I don't want to contradict.
I want to show the contrastwithout contradiction, because
what ends up happening is a lotof artists will write something

(29:47):
that sounds really good and,honestly, it fits with what the
worldly narrative is and thatsells.
That sells really well, becausethat's what everyone hears.
I can manifest my good healingvibes.
No, we need to stick toscripture and and and that puts

(30:08):
out false it puts out falsescripture.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
I mean it.
It creates a like it's all it's.
The burden is ours to heal, theburden is ours to remain
righteous, and we, ourrighteousness, next to God's is
like filthy rags, like we don'tcompare, we don't heal.
That is his gift to us.
That is not our gift, thatwe're manifesting because we
believe hard enough.
Like that's not how it operates.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Sorry, go ahead yeah no, yeah, you're so right.
And so one of the things thatI've, I think, is a huge gift,
is the Lord keeps he.
The Lord keeps me focused onthe scripture through daily
devotion, on the scripturethrough daily devotion, through

(30:52):
my own quiet times.
He keeps convicting me of sin,to remind me of my dependence in
areas where I need to draw tohim.
But then also the Lord keepsimplanting scriptures on my
heart, and so, even if I'm notwriting with my Bible out, I can
still reflect on the truth ofthe Bible, yeah, and be like,
okay, I know this to be true.
So how can I fit this truth inmy song?
You'll often hear when I'mwriting, I have everything is a

(31:16):
setup to the truth at the end.
So I'll contradict, I'm sorry.
I'll place the feeling, theemotion maybe even lies in the
verse or the pre-chorus, andthen the chorus is the truth,
and that is the crescendo ofwhatever lies, or being exposed
by the chorus or by the lastchorus, or something like that.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Can you give us an example of one of your songs
that does that?

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, I don't know any that are out right now.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Oh, you can't get it.
I can't, I can't, I can't giveit away too early.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
No, but you will hear more examples of that.
That's a good call.
I don't know if I havesomething out right now that is
like that but my writings thatare coming out.
I have probably a two yearrelease scheduled out in front
of me, so I'm so you're right,I'm thinking too far ahead, but
you will be hearing that in mywriting.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Because, just being anybody who's ever learned an
instrument or learned how towrite songs, as you grow as a
person and especially in thefaith, as you grow in your faith
and understanding of the Word,it changes the way that you see
Scripture, it changes the wayyou see the world, it changes
everything, and so it ended upchanging the way you write.
So it's awesome that, like inwhen you release that, we're

(32:32):
going to see the spiritualtransformation that you're
experiencing right now in thefuture songs.
I think that's so cool.
I don't know, why?
but it's like it's like we'relike seeing glimpses of like.
This is what he is Like.
You can even in like other youknow the journey.
Yeah, as the songs come out,the journey is like pretty
evident if you pay attention.
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
That's so.
Yeah, and I've I mean, I'vewritten songs where I wrote a
song about going throughsomething difficult or something
like that, and then six, sevenmonths later I start thinking
about that song while I'm goingthrough something difficult or
something like that.
And then six, seven monthslater I start thinking about
that song while I'm goingthrough that season, just
talking to someone.
I'm like, oh, this is a coolsong I should show you.

(33:13):
And I pull up the lyrics.
I'm like, oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
You, minister, to yourself.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yes, and it's not me, it's the.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Lord the.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Lord is writing and I resonated in six to eight
months.
And how good is God to do that?
Yeah, like we could.
He could just be like okay,tell me, you got it, like you
can go write, or whatever.
But no, he's intentional tospeak, and even speak before a

(33:43):
season I go through to to remindme that he's there.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Like I've listened to like our live stream from our
church and like we were havingawesome services and I'm just
like kind of listening back.
You know we're you knowadjusting sound and you know
fine tuning things on the streamso I can instruct them.
Hey, watch this.
But like I'm listening to itand I'm just like, holy crap,
I've got goosebumps.
And it's not that.

(34:07):
I'm like, yes, I'm not like wowwith myself, but I'm like Lord,
even now, when I hear it again,it's just like your presence is
like so evident and so strong.
It's like, yes, I'm experiencingit twice and it's like it's the
same, it's so cool and evensometimes, like yeah, we put out
like like the vertical, youknow, tiktoks and shorts and all

(34:30):
that stuff from the sermon andand I'm the one that edited,
edits it and puts it out andpost it.
And then it pops up later inthe week and I'm like, wow God,
and I'm not like admiring myself, but it's just like the words
coming out, it's like it's notmy words and I'm just like I
thank God all over again forjust being a vessel, like it's

(34:52):
just.
I get exactly what you'retalking about.
Like this happens to me all thetime and I'm like Lord, that is
so cool that you can use abroken wretch.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Like me, Like that is so good.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
So, speaking of like broken wretch, like Broken
Wretch, you mentioned a littlebit what are some like, maybe
one of your recent songs or someof the ones you have on TikTok
that you can talk about, whatare some instances or seasons,
or even relationships, whateverthat may be, that spurred or or

(35:24):
birthed you one of your songsthat people can get ahold of.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, so come and see is one of them.
That's my most recent song, soI wrote that song probably in 20
, I started writing it inprobably 2022, 2023.
And there's about ninedifferent versions of that song.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Oh really.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
And here's the last version.
Yes, but the reason why I wroteit stems all the way back to
the first time I saw a scenefrom the Chosen.
It was the scene where Jesus,jonathan Rumi, is talking to the
man at the well and he has suchcompassion and so much grace.

(36:07):
He's just looking on this manand he gets on his level.
He starts kneeling down, Ithink even, and he's just
talking with him and he asks himif he wants to be healed.
And this man who hasexperienced so much affliction
and pain in his life is sittingthere and he starts
compassionately.
Jesus starts compassionatelytalking to him and that was the

(36:31):
first time it ever occurred tome that Jesus had compassion
Like I knew it.
I heard it so many times, but Ialways believed it for other
people.
I've always struggled believingit for myself.
God has pity on me, god hasmercy on me, god loves me.

(36:53):
Even yesterday, I was listeningto a sermon and I got emotional
just when the pastor said Godhas pity.
It is something I'm alwaysstruggling to remember is that
God has grace and compassion forme.
But when I saw that scene, itjust moved my heart and I just
started crying and I juststarted recognizing that Jesus

(37:18):
has compassion and I wanted tocapture that in a song and so I
wrote Come and See again, notinspired by the chosen, inspired
by the same scriptures that thechosen used and those scenes
impacted me and specificallyagain, I just was like a newborn

(37:39):
baby, just crying, when I sawthe scene where it was under the
fig tree and Nathaniel wasunder the fig tree and Philip
says come and see.
Then Jesus says I saw you underthe fig tree.
And you have all this emotionalconnection now with Nathaniel
and the experience that he hadto be seen like that and to have
Jesus' compassion shine on him.

(37:59):
It's just, it moves me everytime and so I wanted to capture
that in a song.
And to have Jesus' compassionshine on him.
It moves me every time and so Iwanted to capture that in a
song and that's one of thereasons I wrote Come and See.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
So, on the most recent one, you said that you
have out there what was kind ofthe creative process as you were
writing it.
How did that unfold, as youwere kind of trying to take your
emotion from seeing this andthen transforming it into a song
?
What did it look like?

Speaker 2 (38:24):
yeah, so again, there's probably five or six
different files on my computerof the records, not not of the
different versions, but of justthe newest version, yeah, the
release version.
It was a long process because Iwas actively trying to get my

(38:47):
sound in there and trying tofeel it out, and the first
record version is prettypop-like.
There's a lot of pop elementsin it and it sounded cool.
I liked it for that time, butthen I moved on.
I was like you know what I want, something that registers a
little bit more with me, and soI rerecorded it.
I was like this is awesome,this is great.

(39:08):
And then I rerecorded it again.
I'm like this is even better.
And then I lost all my files ina crazy accident and then I
rerecorded it and then I gotimmersed the two files like this
is awesome.
It was a crazy journey to getthis song out and and then I I
start approaching the due date.
I'm like I'm I was working withthe producer.

(39:29):
I'm like this isn't going toget done in time.
This stinks.
I was really discouraged.
And then my fan was like youshould just release more of an
acoustic version of it.
I was like it's gonna be lesswork.
Okay, I'm gonna get it out ontime, because I I a creative If
you're listening to this andyou're a creative too, you know
we're terrible with due dates.
It's so tough.
So I wanted to be like I'mgetting this out on time, I need

(39:54):
to do it, I want to disciplinemyself in this way, and so I
sent that one to to my producer.
That was my first big projectwhere I mixed and produced
everything, and I only had itmastered by my buddy, joshua
Crowe.
Shout out, joshua.
He is a great friend and I wastexting with him like 20 minutes

(40:14):
before we got on the show.
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
So would you say that this was one of the hardest
songs you've done, because youhad to re-record it so much, or
you think it just was longer inevolution?

Speaker 2 (40:29):
It was definitely probably the most aggravating
one, but is it your favorite?
Is it your favorite one?
Probably, of the ones I'vereleased?
Definitely I've got some moreup my sleeve that I literally
cannot wait to release.
The next one I'm going torelease is called, I think I'm
going to release next is calledHomestead, and that one might be

(40:50):
my favorite.
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
So when you release them, do you release them like
as a single, or how do you dothat?
Like so people that they wantto come and follow you, like how
are you doing all that?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah.
So I'll kind of unveil mystrategy over the next little
bit.
Lord willing, this strategywill work, but you never know
again, you who knows, if I haveanother nine versions of my song
.
But I I'm calling I'm kind ofcalling them phases.
I have three phases, uh, andkind of based off of a phases.

(41:21):
I'm a big Marvel superhero fanand so I was like you know what?
This is a great way to do it.
So I'm in phase one right now,which is more of singles.
I'm going to be releasing somesingles and then I'm going to be
collecting it into an EP withkind of a new song as the head
song, and then after that I'mgoing gonna release a, a big

(41:43):
project which would be producedinto an album and then, but it's
gonna be broken up into twohalves and the two.
The first half, I won't revealtoo much, but it is on the topic
of going through pain andsuffering, and the second one is
going to be the, theaccumulation of everything kind
of coming together in a cohesivestory with a new song on top,

(42:06):
which would be the whole kind ofdynamic summed up into one song
basically.
So it's going to be anoverarching story and then the
last phase is going to beanother EP, with singles
releasing before that, based offof one Bible story.
The whole EP is going to bebased EP, with singles releasing
before that, based off of oneBible story.
The whole EP is going to bebased off of one Bible story and
I'm taking sections of thelessons that we learned from

(42:29):
that story and we are and I'mgoing to be collecting it into
an EP.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
That's going to be the story, all collectively
right.
Is that what you?

Speaker 2 (42:38):
said Like you're going to have different pieces
that are different songs.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Is that what you mean ?

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, so it's not.
It be like telling the story ofit.
It's going to be basically thelessons or the experiences that
we see in that story.
So it is the story of MountCarmel, okay, which I think is
probably the most epic scripturein the entire world.
You got the prophet up theremocking the the false god ball,

(43:06):
and it is just absolutelylegendary.
It is my favorite scripture.
Then, a little bit after thatwith with a god coming to, I
believe, is elijah on themountain.
Okay, where he he encountersthe lord with the whisper and
you're saying all it's.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
You're saying all these are going to be released
and and so what?
What platform are you the mostactive on so that people can
make sure to to be tuned intowhat you're doing?
Is it tiktok?
That's where I found you,that's where we started talking,
but that may not be whereyou're the most active I would
say probably.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Either.
Instagram is probably the oneI'm most active on.
If you want to reach out, or ifyou're an artist and you're
like I would love to songwriteor I'd love to get connected,
instagram would probably be thebest way.
I'm the most active on there,but I post about the same amount
on both TikTok and Instagram.
You'll get similar content onboth.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, cool.
So now you said you also leadworship.
I know some of your videos onTikToks is like of you doing
that very thing.
Now, this is a question that isvery important to me because I
really understand this and thisis not from it's from the music
standpoint, but people that maynot understand leading worship.

(44:24):
It is a very serious position.
Like it is right up there withlike being the pastor.
Like there's so much morerequired of you.
You have to pour into thepeople.
You're leading with themusicians, the singers, and then
you have to be, you know likethis, with your pastor or
associate pastor.
You know whoever's over you andis right above you.

(44:47):
Like you have to constantlypour into other people.
So how do you as a person, notonly doing this as a job and
you're you're filling a position, but you're also and you're
filling a position, but you'realso you're spiritually,
emotionally and mentally fillinga need for people who will come

(45:09):
to you because you're one oftheir spiritual leaders?
Like you may be young, but youare one of the spiritual leaders
in the church, you're leadingworship, you're out there,
you're in the front.
What do you do to refillyourself?
Because you're constantlypouring out?
Like, pastors do this a lot.
Everybody always wants them.
You know they want to feel likethey're the favorite.

(45:30):
They, you know they lift theirpastors up.
They lift their worship leadersup, and so they constantly are
coming to you for guidance forwhatever.
For guidance for whatever Like.
How do you stay spirituallyhealthy when things are
constantly being pulled from you?
What do you do for things to bepoured into you?

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah, it's easy.
No, I'm just kidding.
It's no problem at all yeah, man, no, it is probably, as you
would know, it is the mostimportant thing.
It is probably the hardestthing to stay consistent on,
because we just get set in thisrhythm of I can do this, I can

(46:18):
do this.
I'm Mr Fix-It even is an easymentality to get put into.
I think it is easier for mebecause I'm not the lead pastor
worship pastor at my church, butI do fill in other places.
Quite often I do lead for mychurch in kind of a when my
worship pastor is out I willfill in or I am on stage leading
as just one of the worshipleaders and so.

(46:41):
But I do help out in ourcollege ministry a ton as a
college ministry leader and I'vediscipled dudes and I've had
experience on the more pastoralside of ministry in that sense

(47:12):
sense, and I think the area thathas really helped me with that
is prayer, is prayer and,ironically, sitting still
because I am such I need to getstuff done.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
I'm going to go do this this, this, this.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
I need to be productive, this, this, this.
But in reality, the best thingI can do when I'm with God in my
quiet time is just sit still,and that's become a spiritual
practice that ebbs and flows intimes.
Sometimes I need to write downjournal my prayers, and that is

(47:40):
what that looks like in thatseason, where sometimes I need
to be consistently just sittingstill and being reminded that he
is God, like the psalm says andbe content with being still and
resting and seeing that I needrest, because it shows my
dependence on God, so that andjust feeling His presence

(48:02):
through that is such aninfilling thing.
I think also reading the Word isextremely, extremely helpful,
because then I don't have tomake stuff up, it's not on me.
I get to steward thatrelationship according to the
Bible and so I don't feel thepressure of making something up

(48:26):
or feeling like I have to havethe best catchphrase.
I get to be a listening walland I get to share scriptures
and how that can apply to theirlife or how that can help them
or how that can encourage them.
That can encourage them and Isince I'm not a head pastor and

(48:48):
you might actually be able totalk more about this I don't.
I don't feel like I have thesame responsibility or the
weight maybe, but I do.
I do share some of that and Ido feel the responsibility of
that.
So, prayer, reading the Bibleand honesty, honestly, nature,
being out in nature is a hugeand feeling and having community

(49:08):
.
One of the things I used to doa lot was hike by myself.
I would go out and hike justaround.
There's not crazy hiking spots.
So I feel pretty comfortabledoing that in Texas.
You're not, it's not likeyou're going up a 14 or in
Colorado, I felt prettycomfortable hiking by myself but
I've invited others on my hike.
When I have my rest days, mySabbath day, I invite other

(49:30):
people on my hike and say, okay,I want to be in biblical
community and that means with mychurch body and inviting them
on a hike and that is a huge wayI can hang out with other
people and get infilled.
And yeah, I would say thosethree areas community, bible

(49:51):
reading and prayer has been myinfilling points.
So nothing crazy original, it'sbeen the same since the book of
Acts.
You see the same stuffcommunity prayer and Bible
fasting, all that.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
We have a very simple but basic, but powerful
establishment.
We even gave all of our we hadlast Friday night we had all of
our volunteers and staff, we hadabout 25 people and we gave
them T-shirts and it says I havethis thing I say almost every
single Sunday 5, 5, and 5, thechallenge of 15.
I say almost every singleSunday five, five and five.

(50:25):
The challenge of 15, fiveminutes of prayer, five minutes
of reading a word and fiveminutes of praising God every
single day.
And so my mission and visionfor our church is to bring
spiritual maturity back to God'shouse again, like we need to be
spiritually well andspiritually healthy before we
tell anybody out there what todo.
And so we can be in, notagreement, and we can be at each

(50:47):
other's faces but love eachother.
Still, one of the things Jesussaid before he left planet earth
.
He said, hey, how you love eachother is how they will know the
love of the father.
And if we get that back intactin the church again and stop
backbiting and, you know, tryingto make teams and all this
other stuff, like imagine what,what advances we can do for the

(51:08):
kingdom of the lord, um, so inall this, like the writing, a
lot of the, the, the yearsyou've said have been very
recent years.
So, in this whole journey, whathas God been teaching you along
this way?
That maybe something has beenparamount to you staying on the
path and something you cling tothat keeps you going.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, I would say it's probably the same thing I
keep repeating is my dependence.
I need to see my dependence onGod.
I need to see that I'm notself-sufficient.
I need to see that I have thisdeep need for God and I have a

(51:54):
few spiritual practices that Ihave.
I have to take a Sabbath rest.
I make myself I don't If I'mleft to my own desires, I don't.
I just work and work and workand work and work.
I make myself take a Sabbathrest and I'm getting better at
understanding what that meansbecause even by nature I still

(52:16):
have, like I still struggle notworking on my Sabbath and it's
getting better.
But that's an area where I'mtrying to improve because I know
that I need to be in the Lord'spresence and I need to take
rest to show God.
I trust that the world is stillgoing to spend without my or
still going to spin without myhand at the wheel, still going

(52:38):
to spin without my hand at thewheel, like when you asked me
what I was doing, like how hasmy day been?

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Like?
I am one of those people I feellike I am not doing right if
I'm not accomplishing or movingthe ball in a certain direction.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
And so I'm about to be 40 in October and I'm having
to teach myself this because,and then I'm like today, I, I, I
didn't have a job I had, so Ihave a media company as well.
You can probably tell by mysetup it actually looks, you
know, a little professional atleast.
So I do.
I shoot commercials and videoand stuff like that, and then

(53:14):
photos, and I shoot real estatemainly almost every day, and one
of the jobs got canceled thismorning, and so I'm like you
know what?
I'm not going to set my alarm,I'm not going to, I'm not going
to get up and do anything, and Iwas like, well, and so I almost
made it all day, but I was likeyou know what, if I get it with
him today, we may be able to doa podcast.
I'm like, but I love this andit does bring me joy and

(53:37):
fulfillment and it's not a lotof work, and so I'm I'm a person
that I get filled by beingaround people, and my wife is
the opposite.
She likes to go hiking, shelikes to be out in nature, she
likes to.
She'll go out in the yard andsweat her little tail off and
she's happy.
And I'm like that's not my style, Like I don't want to go out
there and like be miserable.

(53:59):
But I've got to learn what fillsme up and and then also
understand that I can do alittle bit as long as I'm like,
reigning it in Like I, literallylike before I I got up to start
getting ready for the podcast,my little girl, she fell asleep
in my arms.
My wife was at the store andshe was just in my arms and she

(54:20):
fell asleep.
I left her on the and it justlike I got to spend time with
her all morning like I didn't doanything.
I didn't work out today.
I didn't.
We didn't go for a walk, Ididn't do anything.
I just hung out with my littlegirl and that's awesome and I
know, especially talking to you,I already know this, but it's
like things that you know, butyou're like it's so hard to do

(54:40):
because the way I'm wired, likeif I don't feel like I'm like
doing something, I feel like I'mnot doing anything, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Yep, yeah, it's, it's , I've I've been trying to read
more.
I've been slacking recently, tobe honest.
I'll confess that I've beenslacking, but I've been trying
to read more.
And the one of the ways that Iget myself to read because I
always feel like I'm not beingproductive when I read I do some
vocal stuff.
So I have this like humidifierthing that like kind of looks

(55:09):
like a Darth Vader mask that Iput on, not like a mask, but
like it's like a like a handheldthing, and it like kind of
shoots up some mist and ithydrates your voice, it helps
out your voice.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
I I don't know all the technical stuff behind it
but I know a lot of singers useit, that I trust.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
And so I'm doing it and I put that on and I drink
some tea, some honey, peppermintand vocal throat tea, and I
take care of my voice while I'mreading something.
If it's a Dr John Bologna book,or if it's a book on theology
or something like that, I cansit there and read it knowing

(55:47):
that I'm being productive withmy vocal health, and so that is
an area where I trick myselfinto thinking.
I'm being productive even thoughI'm still doing the exact same
thing I'd be doing before, butI'm tricking myself into
thinking I'm being productive.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Well, I have a Bible app on my phone and it's the.
It's that little brown one thatsays Holy Bible on it, I think.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Is it Life Church or something?
They have it and they, you know, everything's free.
Yeah, so I travel a lot forwork and I go back and forth.
It's about 45 minutes an hour,so I would put on reading to me,
but then my brain, because ofthe way I'm wired, would go in
this direction.
All of a sudden, I'm not evenpaying attention to what's being
read, and so in the last twoweeks, maybe three, I have

(56:29):
changed the way I consume theBible, and so I got a brand new
study Bible Hold on.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Like look at this thing, Dude, if you got in a
fight and you wanted to smacksomebody in the head with that,
you would win.
So this past, Sunday you can seeall these pink things in here,
little post-it note things.
And I was just studying thebook of Malachi, so the last
book of the Old Testament, andit's talking about how the
sacrifices that the people inthe church, they have become the

(56:59):
least and the last instead ofthe best and the first.
And I was like dude, that isthe modern church, like we.
We bring our sacrifices to Godand we say it's, it's, it's our
very best, but our animals areblind and they're crippled and
it's like stained and tarnishedand we're not bringing God

(57:22):
anything except for the, thelast of you know, the last of
our energy, the last of ourdedication, the last of this.
And it's like and so like onthe study pages.
It's got like all these studynotes.
So what I've changed is when mywife was putting the baby to bed
, I go in our room, I lay down.
We have one of those bed thatreclines.

(57:43):
When she was pregnant we gotone so and like it has all the
author information.
And so I just I started, likeyou know what, I'm not going to
make the Bible a checklist, I'mgoing to make it something I
crawl through.
And so I spent the first nightI read this first page of who
the author was, the prophetMalachi was, what the purpose

(58:05):
was, the setting, the key versesout of here and the features,
even the timeline of when thefirst exile of Jerusalem and
then when Malachi came to thepicture.
And then the next page hasthree verses on the top, which
is like that much, and then therest is study notes.
And so I've read only threeverses in one night and the rest

(58:28):
of the study stuff and I justkept reading it that like went,
went along with it and from thatbirth it was so weird Like I,
like a hunger began to like stirinside of me.
Come on, and it wasn't like justa checklist, it wasn't
something being read to me,there was no notifications, and

(58:49):
I know paper Bible.
Some people are like, oh,that's old school, but there was
nothing that distracted me fromactually getting what I was
reading and it was like I'm apastor of a church, you know
what I mean Like.
But it's like we can get socomplacent and familiar with God
that we forget to honor him, weforget to love on him, we

(59:10):
forget to just bless him, weforget to like actually take the
time.
If we, if we did our our foodlike we do with the Bible, if we
choked it down that quick justso we can consume it, we
wouldn't, we would chokeconstantly, like we need to take
time to chew the food so thatit can properly digest and be
healthy for us.

(59:32):
And so this has been three weeksthat I was like you know what?
This is not working.
So, even though, like,time-wise I felt like I had to
do it a certain way to fit mytime, instead, I found the time
and I began to crawl throughscripture and it.
You saw those post-it notes orthose little note things that
were in there.
I took that to the pulpitsunday and I just read from the

(59:55):
bible instead of I have my ipadto keep my you know my notes and
all my thoughts, but yeah Ijust flipped through the
scripture and I read from thescripture and all of those was
referenced scriptures fromjumping to jumping to.
Then it was from to Romans,chapter 12, talking about that
our bodies should be thesacrifice.

(01:00:16):
And then it goes back toLeviticus about what it is what
is a sacrifice, and that what wesacrifice actually matters to
God.
And so I don is what is asacrifice, and that what we
sacrifice actually matters toGod, and so I don't know why I
went off on that.
I do apologize.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
No, that is, that is awesome.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
But doing what you do , like even though you're
ministering to people throughmusic, like we have to stay,
like, spiritually on our edge,because we can lose that by
serving God and that sounds likecounterintuitive, but it's not
because we forget that.
Like we have to stay in theword, we have to stay rooted.
We have to stay grounded andlike and I know this is kind of

(01:00:53):
a new journey for you, but justas a an old guy to a young guy,
like there's going to be timesto where you're going to you're
going to serve God and you'reforgetting to, to just sit with
God, and so I'm so glad thatyou're and you confessed it.
You're like you know I'veslacked in this, but that's okay
, you know what I mean.
Like yeah.
I'm the lead pastor of a church,and three weeks ago I realized

(01:01:16):
that I haven't been sitting withGod.
I've been serving him reallywell, but I haven't been sitting
with him, and so that was alittle sermon.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
I love that, thank you.
Thank you for thatencouragement, and I think it is
a huge temptation that theenemy sets before us to say
you're not doing enough.
Do more and do more.

(01:01:46):
To where then our time with theLord is seen as a stumbling
block to the achievements thathe wants us to make, and that is
not how the Lord wants us toview our time with him at all
and I struggle with that.
There's times where I'm sittingand reading and I get anxious

(01:02:08):
because I'm like I need to go dosomething and then I realize I
need to press in to what theLord is telling me more, because
I know that the enemy is tryingto get in the way and the Lord
is trying to do something and Ineed to sit and after those
quiet times where I get anxiousthat I need to go do something,

(01:02:31):
those always turn into the mostsweet times with the Lord,
because I actually endured anddidn't fall into the temptation
of I need to do something.
I endured and I waited and Iwaited on the Lord and he
provided and he, like he says,he always puts a way out of
temptation like a way out, andfor me a lot of times it's

(01:02:55):
staying and not leaving, yeah,and doing whatever I feel like I
need to do.
It's staying in the moment withhim.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Something I just thought of like he provides a
way out of temptation, but Ibelieve he also he provides ways
into his presence.
If we're looking for it yeah.
And that's like golly.
I just got chill bumps on that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Love that.
Yeah, no, that same.
That is awesome that might beSunday's sermon.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
It's so paramount that like and I believe this
with all my heart that the deviland you said it, he wants us to
remain distracted?

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, because if he can, American culture is really
good at that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Yes, that's one thing .
Me and my wife, we both wentand got new study Bibles and I
like studying from the new.
I actually preach from NewLiving Translation because it's
very like plainly spoken and Ireally, I really enjoy it and
people it lands better.
If it's not landing, thenwhat's the point?
And but it's just like it'scrazy.

(01:03:58):
Just a new Bible and all thestudy stuff.
I'm like you know what?
I'm just going to have to readeverything that's in there.
I'm just going to take my timeand so.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
That is awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Now Go ahead, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
I was just going to say that is a big reason that I
do what I do is I know how easyit is to get distracted and
music is a huge distractionpoint for people.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
They will indulge in whatever music is considered
good and quality or good beats,but then they listen to the
lyrics and it's saying all thisstuff that's debaucherous or all
this stuff that is stuff thatGod hates, because the Bible
talks about the things that hehates and the world glorifies
the things that he hates.
But these people listen to thismusic because either they don't

(01:04:53):
know better or they don't thinkthat there's good music that
glorifies the Lord, and so Iwant to make music that
glorifies God that someone canlisten to and be like wow, that
was good quality, wow, that wasawesome.
I don't feel like I have tolisten to something that's going
to ruin my daily pursuit of Godbecause I've just ingested all

(01:05:16):
this gunk.
You know, I've actuallyinvested in growing closer to
God through listening to a songthat glorifies Him and that
starts with good theology andmusic.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Yeah, when we were youth pastors over in the Tyler
area, it was very common for theyouth kids to say, oh, I just
like the beat and I'm like youmay like and enjoy the beat, but
you don't understand what'sactually being poured into you.
Because what goes into youeventually is going to come out,
whether it's in your actions oryour mouth or your attitude or

(01:05:49):
whatever.
Like.
Whatever you are allowing to bepoured into you eventually is
going to seep out Like that'sjust the facts and and it's very
hard to find, first of all likebiblically sound like I like
all kinds of music except forcountry.
I don't like country at all andwe can go into a whole reason
for that, but I think it's veryhypocritical music.

(01:06:10):
They talk about god whiledrinking beer on the back road
and everything else, and I'mjust like to me.
That just makes me want topunch them.
I'm not a fan and their musiclyrics are so weak like I can
freestyle with a guitar in myhand and sound better than they
do, and so it's just like I haveno respect for the genre at all
.
No shade on anybody else, butI'm just like dude.

(01:06:32):
This gets on my nerves.
But I like rap, I like rock andwhen I would write music I
always wrote like more acousticstyle stuff and the one of the
rappers a Christian rapper, andthen Lauren Daigle as well like
they would not.
They would not say what wasbiblically sin and what wasn't.
They were like well, I reallydon't know.
And I'm like what do you mean?

(01:06:52):
You don't know.
Like, if you're one of the mainfaces in a genre of music and
you're saying you're a Christian, you should know the basic
answers of what is sin and whatis not.
That seems kind of a no brainerto me, but apparently it's
foreign to them.
And so it's very, veryimportant to me that if, if
somebody's and I'm not sayingthey're a preacher, I'm not, you
know, I'm not trying to claimthat but if you're going to

(01:07:14):
proclaim Jesus on a stage, youshould be ready.
You should be ready for theanswer for the hope that is
within you, and the hope comesfrom conviction of sin.
Yeah, not a, not a, an addition, like we're not adding Jesus to
the things we do.
We are picking up our cross andwe're leaving everything behind

(01:07:36):
.
Matter of fact, in Luke chapterI read it Sunday Luke chapter
or something it was talkingabout the division that Christ
actually brings and he wastalking.
He was like dude, I did notcome to unite, I came to set the
world on fire.
For some reason, I've neverread this before.
Hold on, we're on a podcast.
I'm going to read this right,unless you got to go.

(01:07:58):
But, just give me a coupleseconds.
So this is like I don't knowhow.
I've never read this before,but it was.
It's Luke chapter.
Luke, chapter 12, verse 49.
It says I have come to set theworld on fire and I wish it was
already burning.
I have a terrible baptism ofsuffering ahead of me and I'm
under a heavy burden until it isaccomplished.
Do you think I have come tobring peace to the earth?

(01:08:21):
No, I have come to dividepeople against each other.
From now on, families will besplit apart three in favor of me
or two against, two in favor,three against father will be
divided against son and sonagainst father, mother against
daughter, daughter againstmother and it goes on.
But I'm like we yeah, we get socaught up and we hyper grace and

(01:08:41):
super unity and all this stuff.
But like when you put Christ inthe center of things, what is
right and what is just and whatis truth, there is contrast,
extreme contrast against liesand division.
And what the enemy is trying todo, like it becomes more
evident.
There should be a greaterdistance.
What the enemy is trying to do,like it becomes more evident.
There should be a greaterdistance.

(01:09:01):
Like I should leave.
I should want.
The closer I get to God, themore filthy and dirty I realize
I am.
I can't remember.
Do you remember the prophetwhere God put the coal on his
lips and it purifies?
lips, yeah, and he said, he saidI am undone Like I how filthy
am I, yes Like this should bethe cry of the church, that that

(01:09:24):
wants to see people saved.
Like this is true, authenticworship to God.
Like how filthy am I, howunclean am I.
Woe is me.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Yeah, when you have a low view of God, you have a
high view of yourself.
Yes, that is what happens.
When you think God is on yourlevel, you've equated yourself
to God.
So if you think that, oh, I canlive a life that indulges my
flesh and then go to church onSunday and play this

(01:10:00):
double-faced role, I'm okay.
I prayed the prayer, I'm okay.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
God clearly states that your life is never the same
after that and you can't enjoythose things.
Because you've filled yourselfwith Christ, you can't enjoy
that.
You'll see that it's just amomentary pleasure and that's
not everlasting.

(01:10:27):
And when you put God on yourlevel, then all of a sudden it's
not that important.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Yeah, we've made ourselves into our own gods.
We're building the kingdom ofman instead of the kingdom of
God.
Like I, I love sinners Likeyeah.
I'm a filthy wretch, but itirritates me when people use the
pride month or whatever andthey put the little TikTok

(01:10:56):
things and they feel like, well,if it's a true church, it
wouldn't be hateful and say thatI couldn't live my life and my
truth.
I'm like bro, you're zooming in, zoom out.
All sexual immorality separatesus from God.
It doesn't matter what yourpreference is, all of it
separates us.
Like you can't add God to yourpreference, like that's not how

(01:11:21):
it works.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Yeah, our, our lives are transformed by the truth of
the gospel.
And for us to rewrite what thegospel says to fit our own
narrative or a political party'snarrative is not okay and
people that are responsible forthis is the church.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
If they, if they would have their standards, if
we would have our standardsaccording to the scripture,
instead of preference orappeasing people and affirming
things like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Yeah, and I think this goes back to biblical
literacy.
So one of the core values ofour church is biblical community
, biblical prayer and biblicalliteracy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
And understanding what the scripture says, and
exactly what you said.
If people read the scripturesand they see the divisive nature
of the gospel, that is whyJesus was crucified.
Not because he was some goodman, it is because he was
divisive.
He was calling himself the sonof God.
He was saying revolutionarythings.
The revolutionary language thatgot him killed was I am the son

(01:12:27):
of God.
I am Literally, he says I am.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
It was the church that did it, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
Yes, and that is why, if you look at history and you
look at Peter who died, was hedoing good things?
Yes, but that's not why he waskilled.
It's because he was killedbecause he was so passionate
about the gospel that hewouldn't hold back the truth.
And when he did hold back thetruth, we hear that Paul called

(01:12:53):
him out on it and he repentedand he changed.
And so there is this absolutetruth that as soon as churches
have a low view of the Bible andthey start saying stuff about
what they think instead of whatthe Bible says, or they don't
read through the Bible all theway and they get the whole

(01:13:14):
picture of narrative of thegospel of the Bible throughout,
from Genesis to Revelation, youwill get churches that are soft
on issues and care and fearpeople more than God.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
You know I say it like I.
My people mess with me all thetime.
They say like it.
So I don't.
I don't hold back when I preach.
Like I'm not, I'm not there tomake fans.
I don't.
If the word says it, that'swhat we believe Like, that's it
Like.
We don't add our own littlething to it.
We don't like.
And they'll talk like man.
I should have brought my steeltoes this morning on my boots.

(01:13:48):
I'm like.
Well, man, if you feelconviction, make sure you come
to the altar.
We'll pray you through.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Like I'm a pastor, I'm here to help you, bro, I
mean then that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Like people want to come to church, they want to
consume, they want to be a partof the church culture,
especially here in East Texas.
Like the Bible Belt, likeeverybody thinks.
They're like a Christian andI'm like you don't have the
first clue.
So that reminds me I just gotthese things that are coming in
a couple of days for our church.
They're like it's a tool forpeople to minister or to hand

(01:14:25):
out to invite people to church.
On the front it has likebiblical teachings, powerful
worship, a spirit led.
Then it has the address, thelogo, things like that.
And then on the back this oneguy and his wife designed it,
but I changed it up like theyhad the the.
It's not biblical, but sometimesyou just let people do things.
They just showed up with them.
But like a sinner's prayer,like there's no sinner's prayer,
oh yeah, there's not.

(01:14:45):
Yeah, so I changed it.
What I did is I said how to besaved and I gave like scripture
and like five points of what alife looks like that is a safe
person.
Like pick up your cross,confess that Jesus Christ is the
one true son of God, ask him toforgive you of your sins.
Like the actual lifestyle andplan of what it means to be

(01:15:06):
saved like churches need to stopsaying, oh, lift your hand.
And you know, and I understandyou don't want to stand out or
whatever, but like there's, thelife is going to hit them in the
face when they leave the dooror go out the door yeah, like we
need to prepare them.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
He's going to go after them yes, yes, yeah, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
So yeah, I I think I think children of god need to be
more bold.
Yeah, and it's it's exciting tome to be on the consumer side
to have somebody who's likescripture comes first, and there
is there is countlessscriptures for different things

(01:15:44):
that we go through.
Yeah, so I mean you're gonna bewriting songs forever the sun
right yeah.
So now you said oh no, go ahead, go ahead no, no, after you I
was gonna say so where youmentioned tiktok.
are you on youtube?
I want to kind of make sureeverybody can can find you now.
Yeah, I think your TikTok saysofficial or real Tommy Williams

(01:16:09):
Real real, real.
That's what it is.
Real.
Okay, so what's it on YouTube?
Is it the same?

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
I believe it's just it might I might've.
I'm in the process of changingall that to be real Tommy
Williams, so it might be realTommy Williams or Tommy Williams
music.

Speaker 1 (01:16:23):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
You'll probably find it under Tommy Williams music.
I will say there I've come intosome problems on the
distribution side where anotherartists videos are on my YouTube
and how'd that happen?
It's basically I was releasingvideos under Vivio Vimeo through
my distribution platform andwhat I had to claim the YouTube

(01:16:48):
channel.
But what came with the YouTubechannel that was the Vivo
YouTube channel was all theother songs that another Tommy
Williams had released.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
Did you let them know ?
There's only one.
Some of them.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
What real, tommy Williams.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
No, but they.
Is it bad music?
It's very unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Some of them were really inappropriate, which was
I praise the Lord, I got themoff of my Amazon.
I had people from my church belike oh man, we Alexa'd Tommy
Williams music and they came up,come and see.
But then there's this otherstuff that's very explicit
talking about very inappropriatethings.

(01:17:29):
I'm like I don't want someonesearching up Tommy.
Williams to hear a song that isAI-generated, talking about
very inappropriate things.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
And Tom's going to be like well, this was before I
met Jesus.
You're just going to have tolook through with grace.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
It's a part of my testimony.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Yeah, just listen, it gets better.

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
You'll see as.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
I grow, how closer I got to grace.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
You'll see the transformation process you know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, that is awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
So don't look at those videos.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
What is it on Instagram?
What's the title?

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
Real Tommy Williams.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
Real Tommy Williams Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
So Instagram.

Speaker 1 (01:18:10):
TikTok.
Do you want them to go toYouTube?
Spotify.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Yeah, Spotify and Apple Music would be the best
place to look for it right now.
I'm trying to get that resolved.
I have to go through mydistributor're trying.
I'm trying to get that resolved.
I have to go through mydistributor in person and
fortunately, but we're trying toget that resolved.
So don't worry, it's thosevideos will be removed, but it's
very unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
It's become famous.
However, however God wants itto happen, you'll become famous,
right.
He's using this to subvert thathe can use a crooked stick to
draw straight lines.
Amen, somebody, come on, comeon.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
That's so good, yeah, but I'll get all those links.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
I'll get all those links too, and I'll try to put
them on all my Spotify andeverywhere that podcasts come
out.
I'll make sure that that's onthere too.
That way you can get all theproperty.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
And you said Amazon they can-.
Amazon, spotify and Apple Music.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
Okay, cool.
Now here's something thatprobably you don't get asked a
lot, so I want to ask you yeah,please, as a musical artist, as
a Christian, those who want tobe your fans and they go and
find you, what can we, the fans,pray for you about?

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
Oh man, thank you so much for asking this man.
I would love prayer on stayingstrong to the convictions of the
gospel Because, as you know,when you get in a position where
you've got a record labelsaying it is this way, or the

(01:19:42):
highway, I want to be able tosay I choose the highway because
I honor the Lord, or andhopefully I won't be a part of a
record label where that ischoice but it's always a
possibility.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
It's always a possibility.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
Someone, someone is going to tell me at some point
you need to forsake your valuesfor the sake of money, for the
sake of fame, for the sake ofwhat you desire.
And I want to have theconviction in my life, and the
conviction of the Holy Spirit,to choose God over myself.

(01:20:20):
And I like to say I want theconviction of sin to turn into
conviction of living Like.
I want my convictions to bestrong.
That's one area.
Then two, I think, just likethe with any indie artist,
funding is probably always thehardest part.
Music is expensive, which isironic because it's not a very

(01:20:43):
lucrative business, unless ifyou're really good at it and
you're getting a lot of peoplewho are supporting.
It is always just a big prayer.
It's like, alright, lord, Iwant to see how you're going to
be providing for this and I wantto see how you're going to be.
And he has, and it's been socool.
I'll pray some days.
Lord, I need you to provide forthis, and then that day I get

(01:21:10):
this boom here, this is theopportunity.
Or I see, okay, he's pushedthis further down the line and
I'll get to see how he providesfor it then, and so I'm seeing
him provide.
But it would be amazing to justcontinue to see that, because I
want to give high quality musicso that people can listen to it

(01:21:30):
and not feel like it's justsome dude who on the radio and
feel like it's quality, whilestill, like I said, I'm doing it
all myself.
I am like the most indie artist, I guess you know, like that's

(01:21:53):
the classic indie thing, and sopray for the opportunities.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56):
So are you asking for prayer for band members as well
?

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
What are you going to do if you start traveling?
People will be in my corner.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
You could be like the dude with the drum thing on his
back and the cymbals is onefoot and the guitar is up here
and he's got a harmonica.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
Yes, that's basically what I do in the studio.
Yes, you're looking at a pieceof the studio right now.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
You mentioned funds.
Is there a link or a cash appor whatever, that people can
actually donate to the ministry?

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Yeah, so Patreon would be the I think is the best
way, because then I'm able tostill interact with the people
who are giving and then also Ican be able to give something
back in return.
I'm working on a devotional forcome and see, so that you can
which is a part of each story isas a biblical story in the

(01:22:48):
verses, and I and I touch onthose and so I'm working on
content for there.
Then I just post random, justlittle updates so people know
what's going on and you can bein the better in the know with
my patreon awesome, that'd beawesome, and so I'll get that
link too.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
I'm gonna have like 50 links in the know with my
Patreon Awesome, that'd beawesome, and so I'll get that
link too.
I'm going to have like 50 linksin the bottom where you can
find this dude wherever you go.
Come on.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
That'd be awesome.
Thank you so much for askingthat.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
Yeah, do you have any closing thoughts or anything?
Before we close it out,anything you'd like to?
Say to anybody that's new toyou in the music.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Yeah, I would say, if you're listening to my music, I
hope that the Lord is speakingto you in whatever place you're
in.
You might be in a place ofsuffering, you might be in a
place of hurting, you might bein a place of joy, you might be
experiencing the best season ofyour life, but, as we all know,

(01:23:40):
you're either exiting a trial,you're entering a trial, or
you're about to head into atrial, and so what my hope is is
that Jesus will speak to youand show you that he's with you
through my songs, but then alsothat you can enjoy my songs and,
whatever season you're in, kindof get to experience his
presence in that way.
But I hope that I get to be apart of your story, in whatever

(01:24:05):
way it is, for the sake of thegospel, because of the Lord.
But also realize it's the Lordreaching out to you, not Tommy
Williams.
It is the Lord reaching out toyou to show you that he cares
for you, he loves you, and Hishope, his plans for you are for
your good and for his glory, andthat might mean hard times, but
that also means that you'regoing to come out of the other

(01:24:27):
side, closer to him.
So keep clinging to Jesus,because that is where your
strength comes from not yourself, but from Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Amen to that.
Y'all just got another sermon.
That's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
I'll be at your church next.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
Sunday.
There you go, man, Come onbring it.
Well, thank you, Tommy, so muchfor coming on.
All the links will be, downbelow that you can click whether
you want to go to his Patreonand get extra content that way,
where you can actuallypersonally interact with him.
Find him on his Instagram, hisYouTube channel and Spotify.
Did I ask you if you have awebsite or no?

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
I do have a website.
It's Tommy Williams Music, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Tommy Williams.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
Music.
Some merch on there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Okay, awesome, and then also check him out on
TikTok.
That's how I found him.
So if you're scrolling TikTokand you want to go through his
little videos, go check him out.
And once again, thank you somuch for coming on and God bless
you and God bless your ministry.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
Thank you, you too.

All Episodes

Beyond the Stage: Faith, Failure, and Finding God's Path - Christian Artist Tommy Williams Ep. 14

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Crime Junkie

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Beyond the Stage: Faith, Failure, and Finding God's Path - Christian Artist Tommy Williams Ep. 14