October 9, 2023 • 34 mins
Have you ever wrestled with the guilt and grief that comes from the unimaginable loss of a child? As your hosts, we welcome you into a raw and poignant conversation with the brave Zadi Ashbrook, a young mother navigating those very emotions. Her story is a testament to the strength born out of necessity, the unique journey of grief, and the potential for post-traumatic growth.
Zadi doesn't hold back in sharing the reality of losing a child; the guilt, the painful "what-ifs," and the seeming impossibility of life carrying on. She takes us through her personal healing journey, sharing how counseling and journaling have been instrumental in her process. We engage in an open conversation about the often-unsaid aspects of grief, the unexpected waves of loss, and the transformation of relationships after such a life-altering event.
Our discussion moves into the realm of coping; highlighting the importance of seeking support, the significance of navigating significant dates and milestones, and the potential for growth amidst the pain. Whether it's through the currency of shared experiences or the promise of resilience, Zadi's story serves as a beacon of hope for others on a similar path.
This is not just an episode; it's an invitation to a shared journey of healing, growth, and transformation; and it is part of the special Faith Beyond Child Loss Series.
Host Tim Maceyko is an author, coach, and motivational speaker. His publications include "When the Cardinal Calls," "Child Loss 101," and "Seth's Snuggle Time Game," all available for purchase on Amazon. For book signings, speaking events, or media interviews, he can be reached at TimMaceyko@gmail.com.
Disclaimer: The Faith Beyond with Tim Maceyko Podcast is intended purely for informational, educational, inspirational, or entertainment purposes. The views expressed by guests are their own and may not reflect those of Faith Beyond. Listeners should independently verify any presented information and draw their own conclusions. Episodes discussing fitness and health are intended to examine various ideas that might offer health advantages. Faith Beyond with Tim Maceyko neither endorses any specific viewpoint nor advocates for any particular fitness or health regimen. It is recommended that individuals seek advice from their healthcare providers before initiating any new fitness or health plan. Comments made by host Tim Maceyko are presented to the listeners from a coaching standpoint, as he is not a licensed counselor or physician. The host's remarks are intended for inspirational and motivational purposes only.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Maceyko (00:00):
Happy to be here.
Well, I'm not happy this weekbecause of the topic we're going
to talk about, but ZadiAshbrook is here with me.
Zadi, welcome to Faith Beyond.
I'm excited you could be here.
Well not excited exactly, yeah.
You're like, you always want tosay I'm excited, I'm happy, but
this isn't a happy or it'sexciting topic today, is it?
Zadi Ashbrook (00:20):
It's not a happy or exciting topic, but I feel
like it's needed and I feel likeI am happy to be here.
I'm happy to be talking to youabout this.
I have a chance to talk tosomebody that understand, so I
am happy, okay, well good, good,I'm glad, I'm glad, glad for
(00:41):
that piece, okay, and you knowit's interesting.
Tim Maceyko (00:43):
You said that because it's so true that when
you get with someone else whohas lost a child, you
automatically have thisdifferent bond that other people
just can't understand, and sothat's a very common thing.
But before we get into this, Ijust want to like, basically,
let you take the floor for amoment and tell us your story.
Now, you and I talked brieflybefore we started recording, and
I just want you to kind of goahead and rehash that again for
(01:05):
us.
A nd that way the peoplelistening know who you are, know
your background and whatoccurred, and why you're on this
topic today with me about childloss and the first year
difficulties of it.
So, go ahead and share witheverybody what you shared with
me.
Zadi Ashbrook (01:21):
I feel like that's a huge thing.
So, I'm 21, I was a teen mom,and I had my daughter Unity,
when I just turned 17.
And then life went on, and thenI got pregnant again at 19,
have my son Oakley at 20.
I've struggled a lot withmental health since I was
(01:43):
probably like 13, maybe 12, whenmy great grandma passed away
who raised me, and so that waskind of a traumatic thing.
Not kind of, it was.
It was a traumatic loss in mylife that I had.
I got diagnosed with depressionand anxiety and all these
things.
And then life goes on.
(02:05):
So, bi-polar is now in the mix,I don't know, it's just a bunch
of everything going on.
And so, I've noticed that whenI got pregnant with Oakley, my
life kind of switched.
There was like something thatswitched, and it caused me to
become more positive and I goton this like spiritual journey.
N ot necessarily religious, butdefinitely spiritual.
(02:29):
That whole pregnancy I was justreally really working on myself
to better myself.
And then I had him and then theseven months that I was able to
spend with him.
It was all a learning curve,all still working on the
positivity and everything.
And then I got smacked in theface December 4th of last year
(02:52):
when he passed, and we found outthat it was SIDS.
It's a loss and a trauma onanother level when it's your
child.
Literally your only job as aparent is to keep your children
alive and that's an intrusivethought.
That's been like crossing mymind a lot recently, is like
(03:13):
that was my only job and Ifailed.
And I don't really think that,but in like those down moments
been crossing my mind a lot andso it's a lot of guilt and like
failure and obviously just likegrieving and Sadness that comes
along with that.
And now I'm like seven monthslater and seven months into this
(03:36):
new journey and it's difficultand it's chaotic.
Everything about life ischaotic right now and I think
that's just life in general.
Tim Maceyko (03:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's uh, let's stop for a
moment and hit on a couplethings you said.
So, first of all, we're goingto talk about Oakley and how you
feel guilty.
What I want to point out is,this is so normal.
It's normal whether you wereguilty of anything or not.
It's a very natural reactionfor someone who's lost a child
(04:06):
to blame themselves.
I felt the same way when I lostmy son, Seth.
It was like he died in a bunkbed accident.
It was just one of those things, you know, b ut I'm like why
did we have the bunk bed?
Why weren't we educated on thedangers of it?
Why was the ladder to the topbunk down?
Like all those little things.
You start questioning, right,and you blame yourself, and so
it's very, very natural.
So, someone's listening, andyou say, yeah, I felt the same
(04:28):
way.
You know, don't feel likeyou're alone with that.
I think that's human nature,like we have to blame somebody
or something to make it makesense, and it doesn't make sense
in this case.
There's not much sense to makeout of this, is there?
Zadi Ashbrook (04:40):
No, I think definitely like, as human beings
, we try to make everything makesense and there's a reason for
this and this had to happen.
And if I didn't do that, thenit's all the what ifs.
They really mess you up.
Yes, they do.
They do you know.
Go in and really let yourselfthink all of them, because it's
never good in my experience sofar.
(05:01):
Yeah, it's just not.
Let's not.
Tim Maceyko (05:03):
Let me just say, I'm sorry for your loss.
Of course, you and I talkedabout this before the show, but
I'll make sure I say that againhere now that we are live.
It's such a difficult thing andit's great for me in the sense
of having someone else on theshow to talk about this.
But it's always horrifying whenI have to talk somebody else,
because I know the pain, I knowwhat you're going through.
I'm 10 years into my journeyand so I see things probably a
(05:23):
lot differently than you do inthat first year.
But it doesn't mean it's easier.
I mean, when people say it'llget easier in time, I call them
on that, bull crap.
You know, no, it doesn't geteasier.
It gets different.
Like you know, as time goes onit gets different.
You learn how to managetriggers, you learn how to kind
of survive and you, you learnlike when to pull yourself out
(05:43):
of situations and just recognize, like those things.
Early on it's hard to do, andso that's kind of where you're
at right now.
Zadi Ashbrook (05:50):
Right, it depends on the day, yeah, I think.
Yeah, I feel like some days areway easier and then some days
are super hard, and I'm tryingmy best, and I feel like that's
kind of the theme of this year.
It's just, I'm trying my bestevery single day, and I don't
know.
It's definitely difficult,though.
Tim Maceyko (06:11):
Yeah, let me ask you this what have you done so
far?
You said seven months in, right, mm-hmm.
How have you dealt, like, haveyou gone to any counseling or to
grief groups?
Or do you have a good supportsystem?
Like, how are you dealing withthat early emotional piece of
this?
Zadi Ashbrook (06:25):
I have an amazing therapist, but I've been
talking to her for about a yearand a half now.
It's been like two years.
So, I was talking to herbefore, now she helps a lot,
coming up with different copingskills and everything.
But I feel like obviouslyhaving her and talking to her
(06:47):
and being brutally honest withthe thoughts and emotions that I
have with her and people that Itrust around me has helped a
lot.
Being able to get the thoughtsout instead of holding them in,
because that's when they becomekind of detrimental to my mental
health, has helped.
And also, writing my notes inmy phone is my best friend right
(07:11):
now.
I have so many, just paragraphsabout random thoughts that I
have.
R eally depressing thoughts ormaybe even good ones.
A nd I also write music.
So, it's just a lot of writingand words, just letting it all
out and feeling my emotionscompletely all the way through,
(07:33):
because at one point I was notletting myself do that, and I
would just cry for a minute andthen stop.
And I'm so sorry if you canhear that, my neighbor is weed
whacking my house.
It sounds like.
Tim Maceyko (07:48):
It's okay, that's a great thing about podcasts.
I mean, this is the kind ofstuff that happens, right?
So, no concerns there.
You can't hear it very muchanyway.
Okay, all good.
Well, I like the fact that yousaid you have a counselor, which
I keep saying that, especiallyfor men, we tend to bury
ourselves in our work.
We're men, we don't talk aboutour emotions and that kind of
(08:10):
thing.
A nd women are more apt to goto counseling or seek counseling
.
And I'm glad you're doing thatbecause, when I look back on it,
that would have really helpedmyself and my family.
If I would have taken the wholefamily together as one unit -
my wife, my daughter and gonethere, things may have been
better.
And I didn't do that, and sothat's one of my big regrets,
looking back in hindsight.
Of course, at the time you'restruggling, you're trying to
(08:30):
survive, but if I could just goback and do it all over again, I
would approach it muchdifferently.
But the counseling and mysecond favorite thing is what
you just said as well, which isjournaling, writing your words
down, getting those feelings out.
I know one lady who doesn'tjournal, but she's artistic and
she paints, and she has some ofthe most beautiful paintings
I've ever seen, where she'sletting her emotions come out
(08:52):
that way.
And allowing them to get out issuch an important piece of this
.
Zadi Ashbrook (08:57):
I did that the first two weeks.
I have never painted in mylife, and I went to the store
and got a couple of canvases.
I really haven't done it sincelast December, but I like
looking back at them because.
Like I said, I'm no artist, butthey weren't bad, and you can
(09:19):
feel the emotion.
So, it was definitely a goodway to let it out, and I feel
like any way that you can findthat's helpful for you, you know
, let out your emotions.
Tim Maceyko (09:31):
It's interesting because when you look at some of
the greatest artists in theworld in our entire lifespan or
even before us, long before us,some of those paintings and the
music and the early things camefrom moments of the greatest
pain in their lives.
I think that there's a lot tobe said for that.
Zadi Ashbrook (09:49):
Yeah, I feel like in a really, I don't want to
say twisted way, but that'swhere my mind's going right now.
I think that it's almost likemaybe a metaphor for life, maybe
, where it's like, you know, yougo through these horrible
moments, tragedies, and youthink my life's over, nothing
good is ever going to come ofthis, and then something
(10:11):
beautiful happens.
I feel like my moment right nowis like I'm really really
focusing on just being presentin the moment and enjoying the
time that I have with everyonehere, and I feel like that
should be super obvious to do,but it wasn't for the first half
(10:32):
of this year.
Now I'm finally at this pointand that is like my beautiful
thing.
I'm going out, I went to thebeach for the first time and
just really like soaked in thesunset and spending time with my
loved ones, and it was reallybeautiful.
So, I feel like, not that itwouldn't have happened if this
tragedy didn't happen, but I'mmore grateful for it now maybe.
Tim Maceyko (10:55):
Absolutely, you are .
It is amazing to hear you saythat, because when I go out and
give speeches to groups -whether I talk at a church or I
go to a private group orwhatever.
In fact, a few weeks ago, I wasat a grief loss group, and I
was talking to them, and wetalked about post-traumatic
growth or PTG.
There's a couple of differentthings in there that people will
(11:16):
experience after going throughsomething so traumatic, and one
of those things you justmentioned was how you will savor
the moments more than you everwould have before.
You see life in a different way.
Zadi Ashbrook (11:27):
Yeah.
Tim Maceyko (11:28):
And so I think that's phenomenal, that you're
experiencing a little bit ofpost-traumatic growth and
there's a lot of different stepsyou can go through.
Not everybody goes through allthe same things, but you can
look it up.
It's really interestingpsychology stuff and so, I think
that's pretty cool.
Ok, why don't we go throughthis list?
I told you about this list Igot.
Now let me make sure I creditEmily Graham from Just Plain
(11:53):
House, I want to give creditwhere credit is due.
She wrote an article about 21things that she experienced
after losing her child, and thefirst year of loss, and that's
kind of where you're at.
So, I thought it'd be good totalk about.
Let's just look at her list,and you can kind of talk about
if any of these things thatreally hit home for you.
Zadi Ashbrook (12:11):
Okay, sounds good , all right.
Tim Maceyko (12:13):
So, first thing, I don't think these are in any
particular order necessarily.
But she says it's nothing likeI imagined it would be.
So, she talked about how shedidn't think it would be
anything like it really was.
Zadi Ashbrook (12:25):
I don't know if I ever really even imagined.
I guess in the beginning, likethe first day, I'll say second,
I really was under theimpression that, like my life
was over and there's no way thatI will ever be able to do
anything or be happy again.
And that's not true.
I still have happy moments andenjoy certain parts of life, but
(12:50):
it is different.
Everything's very different,and I feel a little empty, which
I think is to be expected, butit feels different than what you
can think it would.
Tim Maceyko (13:03):
Yeah.
People will say I can onlyimagine.
And I was like no, you can't.
No, yeah.
Zadi Ashbrook (13:08):
Oh, I've heard that so much.
Tim Maceyko (13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Zadi Ashbrook (13:11):
So much.
Tim Maceyko (13:12):
I'm going to do another show on things people
say that don't help.
T here are these common sayingsin our society that people
don't think about, and that's awhole other show all its own.
But yeah, so let's go look atnumber two here.
She said depression issuffocating - something you're
very familiar with, I imagine.
Y ou said you had depressionbefore this with the other
(13:33):
mental health issues.
Zadi Ashbrook (13:34):
It can be.
I don't think it has to be.
I mean, I still have depression.
It's not, you know, didn't goaway and I think it should have
gotten worse, statistically.
But I'd say it's about the sameas it always has been, if not
better, because I'm paying closeattention to my mental health,
(13:55):
and I'm making myself a priorityright now because I know I
could spiral and who knows whatcould happen then.
Yeah, and I'm so nervous of thathappening.
I just won't allow it.
So, I don't think that, atleast not right now for me.
Tim Maceyko (14:16):
I think you are in a good spot, because you had
counseling prior to what youwent through.
If someone's life was all a bedof roses, so to speak, if they
were just happy and life waswonderful and perfect, so to
speak
Zadi Ashbrook (14:28):
And then this hits your world in a bad way,.
.
.
yeah not ready if you .
I yeah, mean, think I wasn't a Iwas in agood .Not, not Not a
really good place for it tohappen, but in a sense, the best
possible place you could be iswhere I was mentally, mentally
(14:51):
and I feel like if it would havehappened a year before that, I
really might not be here rightnow.
Tim Maceyko (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was gonna say.
I think the going to year ofcounseling you had prior to this
kind of helped you manage it,even though it was still
Horrifying and painful andhorrifying.
At least you had some kind oflevel of support going in,
rather than have it all hit youand not have that low.
So I about that So,, like ithit me hard.
(15:18):
But I also had an entire townover here where I live
supporting me.
I have like a large family, sohad all kinds of family members.
My aunt had lost my cousin,tony Years before lost jmy she,
y years to step in and sayI've been here, ron, and I've
here this so I had peoplearound me that were basically
counseling me through.
But not everybody has thatluxury and so I would imagine if
(15:42):
you're really alone I don'thave a support staff, got to be
really, really hard.
Zadi Ashbrook (15:47):
Yeah, my mom lost my brother when I was four.
His name was Tristan, and hewas the same age as my son.
Wow, and I found out that Ibelieve four other babies have
passed in my family.
So, I don't know, this is kindof a side note, I guess but I,
when I was pregnant with him, Ihad dreams that something was
(16:09):
gonna going to happen to him.
So, So I was like nervous aboutit before everyone veryone
Everyone kind of shrugged it offlike, oh, it's not a big deal,
it's, you know, it's a thoughtthoughts, whatever.
I don't know if it was justanxiety, if that sense I,
because I just, I don't knowit's like I knew.
So, I did savor her momentwith him.
I have so many pictures andvideos and everything but maybe
(16:31):
it's because I learned from mymom's mistake of not doing that
and then something happened.
So, yeah, that was.
I don't know why, but I feellike I should say that.
Tim Maceyko (16:42):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Well, I want to make sure wemake it clear to anybody
listening that neither you nor Iare saying that you were in a
good place to have this happen.
I was, you weren't wnot not.
We're saying the suffering, thetrauma unbelievable was
Unbelievable charts.
charts.
.
I'm still suffering.
I know you're still suffering,but there are just scenarios
Scenarios where people either -oo r o, they don't have support
(17:05):
.
It ways, in different ways butit easy, make it easy and I
always say you can't compare oneperson to the next, even if you
have the same kind of loss.
Everything's different, every,every relationship.
Zadi Ashbrook (17:16):
I have noticed that a lot, not a lot, but a few
people have like tried tocompare their selves to me just
because they've lost a child,and it does kind of rub me the
wrong way a little bit.
Not because I their intentionsare always good and it's not
that good, it's just Don'texpect that,. to just, don't
(17:38):
on't through exactly what youwent through, because I'm not
you and our Situations arecompletely different situations
I just different,.
like it depends on the person.
But I don't know it's, it'shappened a few times and it
doesn't really feel that greatwhen they're like, oh, this
helped me, let me do this andyou should do this, and then
it's like, hey, no yeah, yeah,no, I'm with you.
Tim Maceyko (18:00):
She says here, child loss is more prevalent I
ever knew, You know, I agreewith that.
Like it's like you Like, seethat car going down the road
that you bought and you gobought, oh, I go, that car
everywhere now.
Well, you don't even thinkabout child loss until you go
through it and then you realize,wow, it's, it happens than
it should, unfortunately so.
I think that's common.
You will make peopleuncomfortable.
Zadi Ashbrook (18:23):
I can only assume that I do, but I'm like so
aware of it.
I have a lot of mom friends andI mean two of them had babies,
you know, a month before I gavebirth and a month after I gave
birth, and so I don't want totalk to them about the thoughts
that I have or what happened.
I mean, they know, but I don'twant to go into detail or vent
(18:46):
because I don't want to causepanic in them.
I don't want to bring someonedown, I don't want to make them
uncomfortable because they don'tknow what to say or what to do,
and so I kind of don't, but Idon't really talk to anyone
about it.
So, I don't know if it makespeople uncomfortable because I
(19:08):
don't really give them thatoption to, yeah.
Tim Maceyko (19:11):
It's a very common thing where people will tell me
they have people that werefriends with them who kind of
avoid them now, or they see themand they kind of turn the other
way, like like, because they'reUncomfortable.
uncomfortable They don't knowhow to talk to you, because I
don't think that people realizethat it's okay to mention your
child's name, it's okay to havethose memories.
In fact, I want to hear aboutthose stories didn't hear before
(19:34):
, because that's that's all wehave , and so don't to speak
up.
I I like this one.
She you will get this next n atpeople that mean well, you will
get angry at people that meanyeah, all the time, mean well,
w.
Zadi Ashbrook (19:49):
All the time.
Tim Maceyko (19:50):
Yeah, and don't you feel guilty?
oo?
?
, like because not them, it'sother thing going on, and then
you go uh, I should have beennicer about that.
Zadi Ashbrook (19:59):
Yeah, I yeah, it's really bad.
I feel maybe you do understand,but I feel like sometimes my
sadness will come out in angeror irritability.
Really for me, I feel bad aboutit.
I always do.
I always feel super, super bad,but it's, it's a thing.
Tim Maceyko (20:16):
Yeah, I guess I'm mentioning it iso that people,
if you're listening to the, theshow that you understand that if
someone's lost a child or evenloved a Love one in and are o
and so suffering and grieving,they're likely to lash out and
you might get mad at them, belike, oh I acted can't believe
they act understand if ithat'sthat's.
If that's not them normally,that's probably not them now.
It's the emotions and thedifficulty they're going through
So, So keep that in mind.
(20:37):
They need your support and morethan ever.
N agree with that one.
Zadi Ashbrook (20:48):
Nothing else to say, really, I mean.
Tim Maceyko (20:50):
I agree.
Let's move on.
You will feel happiness attimes, but it will always be
coupled with sadness.
Zadi Ashbrook (20:58):
I just had this moment when I was at the beach.
Yeah, I was super happy, justbeing so peaceful, and then I
got sad.
Same thing happens with, likebirthdays and it's I'm excited
that it's my 21st birthday.
This is so fun.
(21:18):
I'm supposed to party and thenI'm crying on my way to my party
because I wish my baby was here.
And it doesn't make any sensebecause he wouldn't be there
anyways.
You know, like he wouldn't evenbe at my 21st birthday.
Tim Maceyko (21:34):
So, i it makes total t sense.
It makes total sense, though,., l this but let et very
first this, this - - - youfelt happiness, whether you
laughed or you smiled, when wyoufelt that the very first time
after your son died, how did itmake you feel when you, when you
had that moment of laughterremember?
Zadi Ashbrook (21:54):
Definitely the first thought was how could I be
laughing right now or how couldI be enjoying life when he
passed away two days ago?
Yeah, that doesn't make anysense, like I'm supposed to be
sad for the rest of my life,always.
Tim Maceyko (22:08):
Yes, and that's the point I wanted to make for
everybody was t because recallthe same exact thing.
I forget why it was, whathappened, but I remember I
laughed finally, like after like, however, many , , laughed,
then I was so horrified that Ihad the audacity to laugh and to
feel good and to be happy whenmy son was lying there you know,
(22:29):
not here and I hated myself inthat here, moment for for, for
feeling good and feeling, andand I was wondering if happy.
and.
nd way and you said you didyeah, it's horrible to feel
guilty for being Happy maybe noteven happy just having like a
happy, nice laugh.
Zadi Ashbrook (22:47):
I don't even know why I laughed, it might have
been a video that I saw, yeah,but it did feel good.
And, yeah, I felt badafterwards, but I think that
kind of sparked like a thoughtin my head, he wouldn't want me
to be sad for the rest of mylife, you know, and I think that
was kind of one of the Biggerbigger points where I'm like
(23:08):
like, allowed to be happy happy,it's okay good for you.
Tim Maceyko (23:11):
That's exactly what it's supposed to be.
You know, they would not wantus to be unhappy and have to
keep living.
So yeah.
Don't feel guilty if you have amoment of happiness at some
point point!, on , let's soare not gonna know when
that's going to occur.
of like going to you just saida moment ago, where one minute
You're happy, what?
Next minute you're sad?
It just you're pops up Nthenext coaster.
(23:33):
sad, it might have up, like,okay, I'm getting through this,
I'm moving on onto a having agood day and then boom, right
and where I was day, in theshower that morning.
Zadi Ashbrook (23:43):
Yeah, it always shows up at, I wouldn't say the
worst times, but like rightI'm about to leave and go to
somebody's house or I house,.
to go out in the public and Twopublic, minutes before two that
I'm crying in the car and a car,lot of the times it comes over
me at like four in the morningand Then morning, I just then
(24:04):
don't sleep for the rest of theday.
So kind of So, yeah, it does,it does, it creeps up on you and
I would say, most of the timepretty bad time, timing.
I really a thinkne NextooneNext ois Next: - - n.
People will surprise you, andshe mentioned about, I actually
talked about how the people thatyou thought would be there
(24:25):
maybe weren't and the peoplethat you didn't expect to be
there were, and how that maychange the way you view the
relationships around you.
Yes, I've had to create some distance with people
I never thought I would have to, especially in this moment, and
then a lot of people I'vebecome really close with.
(24:48):
That I never not I would, butI wouldn't assume that and would
bring us closer.
It's interesting.
Tim Maceyko (24:56):
Yeah, I agree.
The other thing she says hereis it is not strength I possess,
it is necessity.
So people always say you're sostrong, I wish I could be like
you.
And it's not strength, it's anecessity.
Zadi Ashbrook (25:10):
Yeah, because if you're not, you don't know what
could happen.
You know it's just, it's all itis, it's out of necessity.
I never really thought of itthat way, but I've been hearing
that a lot.
Yeah, you're so strong, you'rethe strongest person I know.
I could never go through that.
I'm like, I didn't think Icould either.
You know, but it really wasn'ta choice.
It's my life now.
Tim Maceyko (25:30):
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there
.
I apologize.
I was going to say it's anotherpost traumatic growth thing
where you realize this innerstrength that you never would
have realized if you hadn't gonethrough what you went through.
And so that's one of those PTGgrowth things that she's
actually talking about here.
And then I like this one.
I'll just leave one more here.
She had 21 of these, but I'mnot ngoing to hit them all But
But you will survive.
(25:52):
You will survive, and I thinkthat's very profound in the
sense that you feel like you'renot going to, especially in the
early days, weeks, months.
You don't know how you're goingto make it through, but you
will.
You just got to keep the faithand hold on to hope.
Zadi Ashbrook (26:06):
Yeah, and the really, really hard moments
where I'm just bawling my eyesout, especially in the very
beginning, that chest pain andno, you know what I'm talking
about, like this hole in myheart and this egg it feels like
it could kill you really, andthen just the thought of
imagining your future withoutthem there is just, you really
(26:30):
can't imagine it, and it seemslike for me it seemed like, well
, if I can't imagine it, thenit's just not going to happen.
I'm just not going to make itto this future that I'm thinking
about.
So it was, yeah, but I don'tfeel that way now.
So, it's a good thing.
Tim Maceyko (26:45):
That's a good thing , that's a real good thing.
I'm glad you don't feel thatway.
I don't feel that way now.
So, that was just some of thethings that she had mentioned in
her article, and there's a lotmore.
Feel free to check that articleout, but I wanted to kind of
touch base it with you on thefirst things that you're
experiencing.
So, when is his birthday?
Have you experienced that yet?
Zadi Ashbrook (27:04):
Yeah, April 18th.
Tim Maceyko (27:06):
And what was that like for you?
Zadi Ashbrook (27:08):
I was kind of numb on the actual day.
We had a little get together.
We had a little get together.
We had a bunch of family andfriends get together at this
little place.
We had food, we had cake, wehad everyone bring baby clothes
and toys that we could go donate.
And, yeah, I didn't really feela lot, though I didn't cry or
(27:32):
anything.
It was just I'm here and Ialmost felt like why am I here?
Like why am I doing this?
This makes no sense.
It was I don't know, but theday after was horrible.
It was horrible.
It was the worst.
Like I think that was the firsttime in my life that I have
ever wailed.
Is that the right word?
(27:53):
Yeah, I mean, it was just asound that I've never heard
before.
I couldn't breathe.
It was.
It was really a lot.
Tim Maceyko (28:01):
Yeah, I think you hit on like a lot of people,
feel numb and the thing is, thefirst year is the absolute worst
.
Now, year two for me wasn'tmuch better, but the first year,
like you said, you kind ofsleepwalk almost through a lot
of things.
You feel like a zombie in a lotof ways.
It's not just the firstbirthday, it's the holidays,
you know, whether it's Easter oryou and Thanksgiving and
(28:23):
Halloween's horrible for youknow w all the kids out there
doing that thing.
You think about the momentsyou're not going to have and all
those things.
But also, it's the change ofseasons.
You know, when you go from oneseason to the next it can really
affect you because, like for myson, he was five years old when
he passed, and so the springand it's its season, the to
like ready for and so yourmind goes to that.
(28:46):
And the local t-ball field.
You drive ball-ball and thekids are out there playing and
just melt your ,, ymelt, 10years heart hurts later, because
you're like he never got to dothat, he was supposed to start
that year, that he had year.
You know, going back to school,going back to school season is
rough for some people, and so itwas all these different times.
But the birthdays and the deathdays are noted as two of the
(29:10):
absolute most horrendous forchild loss parents, and so I
just want to mention that thatdon't be surprised if you're out
there and those are reallydifficult for you.
They just are, they always willbe.
And this year we did a 10 yearreunion.
We actually got everybody backtogether at the house and we did
a balloon release, something wehaven't done.
You know I'm not real big onballoon releases just because
(29:32):
they bust and they bust, allover.
You know it's not great for thenature, but it was a way to
remember him, and we whadeverybody here an and evening
for a few hours, and it was justnice to have some of the faces
we haven't seen in a whilewhile, also just the fact that
people remembered even 10 yearslater later, you feel a little
better.
Zadi Ashbrook (29:50):
Yeah, I feel like everything is just super
difficult because I only got oneholiday with him throughout the
year.
You know, I got one Easter,which I really didn't, because
he was born the day after Easter, so I really didn't, and so
that reminds me of that.
One Halloween, one, didn't evenget to Christmas, so Christmas
(30:14):
is going to suck.
Tim Maceyko (30:16):
Y.
Zadi Ashbrook (30:17):
It's going to suck again.
I don't know.
I feel like it's.
Yeah, it's the holidays thatprobably hit the worst.
Yeah, not looking forward tothem.
Tim Maceyko (30:26):
You know, the big thing, the reason we are doing
these, is I'm doing a series onpeople who have lost a child,
and we're going to talk aboutdifferent topics in order to
hopefully help some people outthere who can go.
Hey, that's not just me, I'm notthe only one that feels that
way, I'm not the only one thatdoes those things or reacts that
way, and so, I reallyappreciate you coming on and
(30:47):
talking with us today, and maybehere in the future I'll have
you back on for another show.
I'd like to get two or threepeople on and have kind of a
group discussion about,especially that people say.
I think that needs to be agroup of us to sit down around
the table and talk about it froma viewpoint of the things that
hurt us, but also why they hurtand what works Like what did
(31:09):
people say or works,. like thatactually were beneficial.
So I think that's an importanttopic So, too.
So I'm looking forward to dothat I'd love to have on that,
if you want to maybe come backon again and do that, of course.
Zadi Ashbrook (31:19):
Hopefully I'll be able to get my words out better
.
Tim Maceyko (31:23):
It's okay.
That's why I like podcastingthough, because it's real.
It's not some polished up fakeTV show.
Even reality TV is not real.
This right here is the worst.
Yeah, it's crazy, but this isreal.
Your four-year-old daughtercomes in and messes up, and I'm
worried about my dogs barkingover here and scratching the
(31:45):
door that I have shut behind me.
Zadi Ashbrook (31:46):
Yeah, my neighbor started weed-wacking my house.
That was crazy.
Tim Maceyko (31:54):
Hey, he got it done though, didn't he?
Apparently, apparently, he did.
Ok, do you have anything elseyou want to add, or have we
covered enough for you today?
Zadi Ashbrook (32:03):
I feel like maybe the only thing I'll say is just
try to stay as positive as youcan, and that really is the only
thing that got me through thefirst couple months, and it was
not necessarily the most healthything to do, but I was positive
enough to just keep going andthat's what got me to this point
(32:25):
, and now we're working on thehealthy parts of coping.
But really I feel like you justhave to do what you have to do,
to just stay here and you'llfigure it out eventually.
Tim Maceyko (32:38):
Well, Zadi, thank you for coming on.
We'll definitely have you back.
Zadi Ashbrook (32:41):
Thank you.
Tim Maceyko (32:42):
And thanks everybody for listening.
Hopefully you found somethingbeneficial from today's show.
Happy to be here.
Well, I'm not happy this weekbecause of the topic we're going
to talk about, but ZadiAshbrook is here with me.
Zadi, welcome to Faith Beyond.
I'm excited you could be here.
Well not excited exactly, yeah.
You're like, you always want tosay I'm excited, I'm happy, but
this isn't a happy or it'sexciting topic today, is it?
Zadi Ashbrook (00:20):
It's not a happy or exciting topic, but I feel
like it's needed and I feel likeI am happy to be here.
I'm happy to be talking to youabout this.
I have a chance to talk tosomebody that understand, so I
am happy, okay, well good, good,I'm glad, I'm glad, glad for
(00:41):
that piece, okay, and you knowit's interesting.
Tim Maceyko (00:43):
You said that because it's so true that when
you get with someone else whohas lost a child, you
automatically have thisdifferent bond that other people
just can't understand, and sothat's a very common thing.
But before we get into this, Ijust want to like, basically,
let you take the floor for amoment and tell us your story.
Now, you and I talked brieflybefore we started recording, and
I just want you to kind of goahead and rehash that again for
(01:05):
us.
A nd that way the peoplelistening know who you are, know
your background and whatoccurred, and why you're on this
topic today with me about childloss and the first year
difficulties of it.
So, go ahead and share witheverybody what you shared with
me.
Zadi Ashbrook (01:21):
I feel like that's a huge thing.
So, I'm 21, I was a teen mom,and I had my daughter Unity,
when I just turned 17.
And then life went on, and thenI got pregnant again at 19,
have my son Oakley at 20.
I've struggled a lot withmental health since I was
(01:43):
probably like 13, maybe 12, whenmy great grandma passed away
who raised me, and so that waskind of a traumatic thing.
Not kind of, it was.
It was a traumatic loss in mylife that I had.
I got diagnosed with depressionand anxiety and all these
things.
And then life goes on.
(02:05):
So, bi-polar is now in the mix,I don't know, it's just a bunch
of everything going on.
And so, I've noticed that whenI got pregnant with Oakley, my
life kind of switched.
There was like something thatswitched, and it caused me to
become more positive and I goton this like spiritual journey.
N ot necessarily religious, butdefinitely spiritual.
(02:29):
That whole pregnancy I was justreally really working on myself
to better myself.
And then I had him and then theseven months that I was able to
spend with him.
It was all a learning curve,all still working on the
positivity and everything.
And then I got smacked in theface December 4th of last year
(02:52):
when he passed, and we found outthat it was SIDS.
It's a loss and a trauma onanother level when it's your
child.
Literally your only job as aparent is to keep your children
alive and that's an intrusivethought.
That's been like crossing mymind a lot recently, is like
(03:13):
that was my only job and Ifailed.
And I don't really think that,but in like those down moments
been crossing my mind a lot andso it's a lot of guilt and like
failure and obviously just likegrieving and Sadness that comes
along with that.
And now I'm like seven monthslater and seven months into this
(03:36):
new journey and it's difficultand it's chaotic.
Everything about life ischaotic right now and I think
that's just life in general.
Tim Maceyko (03:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's uh, let's stop for a
moment and hit on a couplethings you said.
So, first of all, we're goingto talk about Oakley and how you
feel guilty.
What I want to point out is,this is so normal.
It's normal whether you wereguilty of anything or not.
It's a very natural reactionfor someone who's lost a child
(04:06):
to blame themselves.
I felt the same way when I lostmy son, Seth.
It was like he died in a bunkbed accident.
It was just one of those things, you know, b ut I'm like why
did we have the bunk bed?
Why weren't we educated on thedangers of it?
Why was the ladder to the topbunk down?
Like all those little things.
You start questioning, right,and you blame yourself, and so
it's very, very natural.
So, someone's listening, andyou say, yeah, I felt the same
(04:28):
way.
You know, don't feel likeyou're alone with that.
I think that's human nature,like we have to blame somebody
or something to make it makesense, and it doesn't make sense
in this case.
There's not much sense to makeout of this, is there?
Zadi Ashbrook (04:40):
No, I think definitely like, as human beings
, we try to make everything makesense and there's a reason for
this and this had to happen.
And if I didn't do that, thenit's all the what ifs.
They really mess you up.
Yes, they do.
They do you know.
Go in and really let yourselfthink all of them, because it's
never good in my experience sofar.
(05:01):
Yeah, it's just not.
Let's not.
Tim Maceyko (05:03):
Let me just say, I'm sorry for your loss.
Of course, you and I talkedabout this before the show, but
I'll make sure I say that againhere now that we are live.
It's such a difficult thing andit's great for me in the sense
of having someone else on theshow to talk about this.
But it's always horrifying whenI have to talk somebody else,
because I know the pain, I knowwhat you're going through.
I'm 10 years into my journeyand so I see things probably a
(05:23):
lot differently than you do inthat first year.
But it doesn't mean it's easier.
I mean, when people say it'llget easier in time, I call them
on that, bull crap.
You know, no, it doesn't geteasier.
It gets different.
Like you know, as time goes onit gets different.
You learn how to managetriggers, you learn how to kind
of survive and you, you learnlike when to pull yourself out
(05:43):
of situations and just recognize, like those things.
Early on it's hard to do, andso that's kind of where you're
at right now.
Zadi Ashbrook (05:50):
Right, it depends on the day, yeah, I think.
Yeah, I feel like some days areway easier and then some days
are super hard, and I'm tryingmy best, and I feel like that's
kind of the theme of this year.
It's just, I'm trying my bestevery single day, and I don't
know.
It's definitely difficult,though.
Tim Maceyko (06:11):
Yeah, let me ask you this what have you done so
far?
You said seven months in, right, mm-hmm.
How have you dealt, like, haveyou gone to any counseling or to
grief groups?
Or do you have a good supportsystem?
Like, how are you dealing withthat early emotional piece of
this?
Zadi Ashbrook (06:25):
I have an amazing therapist, but I've been
talking to her for about a yearand a half now.
It's been like two years.
So, I was talking to herbefore, now she helps a lot,
coming up with different copingskills and everything.
But I feel like obviouslyhaving her and talking to her
(06:47):
and being brutally honest withthe thoughts and emotions that I
have with her and people that Itrust around me has helped a
lot.
Being able to get the thoughtsout instead of holding them in,
because that's when they becomekind of detrimental to my mental
health, has helped.
And also, writing my notes inmy phone is my best friend right
(07:11):
now.
I have so many, just paragraphsabout random thoughts that I
have.
R eally depressing thoughts ormaybe even good ones.
A nd I also write music.
So, it's just a lot of writingand words, just letting it all
out and feeling my emotionscompletely all the way through,
(07:33):
because at one point I was notletting myself do that, and I
would just cry for a minute andthen stop.
And I'm so sorry if you canhear that, my neighbor is weed
whacking my house.
It sounds like.
Tim Maceyko (07:48):
It's okay, that's a great thing about podcasts.
I mean, this is the kind ofstuff that happens, right?
So, no concerns there.
You can't hear it very muchanyway.
Okay, all good.
Well, I like the fact that yousaid you have a counselor, which
I keep saying that, especiallyfor men, we tend to bury
ourselves in our work.
We're men, we don't talk aboutour emotions and that kind of
(08:10):
thing.
A nd women are more apt to goto counseling or seek counseling
.
And I'm glad you're doing thatbecause, when I look back on it,
that would have really helpedmyself and my family.
If I would have taken the wholefamily together as one unit -
my wife, my daughter and gonethere, things may have been
better.
And I didn't do that, and sothat's one of my big regrets,
looking back in hindsight.
Of course, at the time you'restruggling, you're trying to
(08:30):
survive, but if I could just goback and do it all over again, I
would approach it muchdifferently.
But the counseling and mysecond favorite thing is what
you just said as well, which isjournaling, writing your words
down, getting those feelings out.
I know one lady who doesn'tjournal, but she's artistic and
she paints, and she has some ofthe most beautiful paintings
I've ever seen, where she'sletting her emotions come out
(08:52):
that way.
And allowing them to get out issuch an important piece of this
.
Zadi Ashbrook (08:57):
I did that the first two weeks.
I have never painted in mylife, and I went to the store
and got a couple of canvases.
I really haven't done it sincelast December, but I like
looking back at them because.
Like I said, I'm no artist, butthey weren't bad, and you can
(09:19):
feel the emotion.
So, it was definitely a goodway to let it out, and I feel
like any way that you can findthat's helpful for you, you know
, let out your emotions.
Tim Maceyko (09:31):
It's interesting because when you look at some of
the greatest artists in theworld in our entire lifespan or
even before us, long before us,some of those paintings and the
music and the early things camefrom moments of the greatest
pain in their lives.
I think that there's a lot tobe said for that.
Zadi Ashbrook (09:49):
Yeah, I feel like in a really, I don't want to
say twisted way, but that'swhere my mind's going right now.
I think that it's almost likemaybe a metaphor for life, maybe
, where it's like, you know, yougo through these horrible
moments, tragedies, and youthink my life's over, nothing
good is ever going to come ofthis, and then something
(10:11):
beautiful happens.
I feel like my moment right nowis like I'm really really
focusing on just being presentin the moment and enjoying the
time that I have with everyonehere, and I feel like that
should be super obvious to do,but it wasn't for the first half
(10:32):
of this year.
Now I'm finally at this pointand that is like my beautiful
thing.
I'm going out, I went to thebeach for the first time and
just really like soaked in thesunset and spending time with my
loved ones, and it was reallybeautiful.
So, I feel like, not that itwouldn't have happened if this
tragedy didn't happen, but I'mmore grateful for it now maybe.
Tim Maceyko (10:55):
Absolutely, you are .
It is amazing to hear you saythat, because when I go out and
give speeches to groups -whether I talk at a church or I
go to a private group orwhatever.
In fact, a few weeks ago, I wasat a grief loss group, and I
was talking to them, and wetalked about post-traumatic
growth or PTG.
There's a couple of differentthings in there that people will
(11:16):
experience after going throughsomething so traumatic, and one
of those things you justmentioned was how you will savor
the moments more than you everwould have before.
You see life in a different way.
Zadi Ashbrook (11:27):
Yeah.
Tim Maceyko (11:28):
And so I think that's phenomenal, that you're
experiencing a little bit ofpost-traumatic growth and
there's a lot of different stepsyou can go through.
Not everybody goes through allthe same things, but you can
look it up.
It's really interestingpsychology stuff and so, I think
that's pretty cool.
Ok, why don't we go throughthis list?
I told you about this list Igot.
Now let me make sure I creditEmily Graham from Just Plain
(11:53):
House, I want to give creditwhere credit is due.
She wrote an article about 21things that she experienced
after losing her child, and thefirst year of loss, and that's
kind of where you're at.
So, I thought it'd be good totalk about.
Let's just look at her list,and you can kind of talk about
if any of these things thatreally hit home for you.
Zadi Ashbrook (12:11):
Okay, sounds good , all right.
Tim Maceyko (12:13):
So, first thing, I don't think these are in any
particular order necessarily.
But she says it's nothing likeI imagined it would be.
So, she talked about how shedidn't think it would be
anything like it really was.
Zadi Ashbrook (12:25):
I don't know if I ever really even imagined.
I guess in the beginning, likethe first day, I'll say second,
I really was under theimpression that, like my life
was over and there's no way thatI will ever be able to do
anything or be happy again.
And that's not true.
I still have happy moments andenjoy certain parts of life, but
(12:50):
it is different.
Everything's very different,and I feel a little empty, which
I think is to be expected, butit feels different than what you
can think it would.
Tim Maceyko (13:03):
Yeah.
People will say I can onlyimagine.
And I was like no, you can't.
No, yeah.
Zadi Ashbrook (13:08):
Oh, I've heard that so much.
Tim Maceyko (13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Zadi Ashbrook (13:11):
So much.
Tim Maceyko (13:12):
I'm going to do another show on things people
say that don't help.
T here are these common sayingsin our society that people
don't think about, and that's awhole other show all its own.
But yeah, so let's go look atnumber two here.
She said depression issuffocating - something you're
very familiar with, I imagine.
Y ou said you had depressionbefore this with the other
(13:33):
mental health issues.
Zadi Ashbrook (13:34):
It can be.
I don't think it has to be.
I mean, I still have depression.
It's not, you know, didn't goaway and I think it should have
gotten worse, statistically.
But I'd say it's about the sameas it always has been, if not
better, because I'm paying closeattention to my mental health,
(13:55):
and I'm making myself a priorityright now because I know I
could spiral and who knows whatcould happen then.
Yeah, and I'm so nervous of thathappening.
I just won't allow it.
So, I don't think that, atleast not right now for me.
Tim Maceyko (14:16):
I think you are in a good spot, because you had
counseling prior to what youwent through.
If someone's life was all a bedof roses, so to speak, if they
were just happy and life waswonderful and perfect, so to
speak
Zadi Ashbrook (14:28):
And then this hits your world in a bad way,.
.
.
yeah not ready if you .
I yeah, mean, think I wasn't a Iwas in agood .Not, not Not a
really good place for it tohappen, but in a sense, the best
possible place you could be iswhere I was mentally, mentally
(14:51):
and I feel like if it would havehappened a year before that, I
really might not be here rightnow.
Tim Maceyko (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was gonna say.
I think the going to year ofcounseling you had prior to this
kind of helped you manage it,even though it was still
Horrifying and painful andhorrifying.
At least you had some kind oflevel of support going in,
rather than have it all hit youand not have that low.
So I about that So,, like ithit me hard.
(15:18):
But I also had an entire townover here where I live
supporting me.
I have like a large family, sohad all kinds of family members.
My aunt had lost my cousin,tony Years before lost jmy she,
y years to step in and sayI've been here, ron, and I've
here this so I had peoplearound me that were basically
counseling me through.
But not everybody has thatluxury and so I would imagine if
(15:42):
you're really alone I don'thave a support staff, got to be
really, really hard.
Zadi Ashbrook (15:47):
Yeah, my mom lost my brother when I was four.
His name was Tristan, and hewas the same age as my son.
Wow, and I found out that Ibelieve four other babies have
passed in my family.
So, I don't know, this is kindof a side note, I guess but I,
when I was pregnant with him, Ihad dreams that something was
(16:09):
gonna going to happen to him.
So, So I was like nervous aboutit before everyone veryone
Everyone kind of shrugged it offlike, oh, it's not a big deal,
it's, you know, it's a thoughtthoughts, whatever.
I don't know if it was justanxiety, if that sense I,
because I just, I don't knowit's like I knew.
So, I did savor her momentwith him.
I have so many pictures andvideos and everything but maybe
(16:31):
it's because I learned from mymom's mistake of not doing that
and then something happened.
So, yeah, that was.
I don't know why, but I feellike I should say that.
Tim Maceyko (16:42):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Well, I want to make sure wemake it clear to anybody
listening that neither you nor Iare saying that you were in a
good place to have this happen.
I was, you weren't wnot not.
We're saying the suffering, thetrauma unbelievable was
Unbelievable charts.
charts.
.
I'm still suffering.
I know you're still suffering,but there are just scenarios
Scenarios where people either -oo r o, they don't have support
(17:05):
.
It ways, in different ways butit easy, make it easy and I
always say you can't compare oneperson to the next, even if you
have the same kind of loss.
Everything's different, every,every relationship.
Zadi Ashbrook (17:16):
I have noticed that a lot, not a lot, but a few
people have like tried tocompare their selves to me just
because they've lost a child,and it does kind of rub me the
wrong way a little bit.
Not because I their intentionsare always good and it's not
that good, it's just Don'texpect that,. to just, don't
(17:38):
on't through exactly what youwent through, because I'm not
you and our Situations arecompletely different situations
I just different,.
like it depends on the person.
But I don't know it's, it'shappened a few times and it
doesn't really feel that greatwhen they're like, oh, this
helped me, let me do this andyou should do this, and then
it's like, hey, no yeah, yeah,no, I'm with you.
Tim Maceyko (18:00):
She says here, child loss is more prevalent I
ever knew, You know, I agreewith that.
Like it's like you Like, seethat car going down the road
that you bought and you gobought, oh, I go, that car
everywhere now.
Well, you don't even thinkabout child loss until you go
through it and then you realize,wow, it's, it happens than
it should, unfortunately so.
I think that's common.
You will make peopleuncomfortable.
Zadi Ashbrook (18:23):
I can only assume that I do, but I'm like so
aware of it.
I have a lot of mom friends andI mean two of them had babies,
you know, a month before I gavebirth and a month after I gave
birth, and so I don't want totalk to them about the thoughts
that I have or what happened.
I mean, they know, but I don'twant to go into detail or vent
(18:46):
because I don't want to causepanic in them.
I don't want to bring someonedown, I don't want to make them
uncomfortable because they don'tknow what to say or what to do,
and so I kind of don't, but Idon't really talk to anyone
about it.
So, I don't know if it makespeople uncomfortable because I
(19:08):
don't really give them thatoption to, yeah.
Tim Maceyko (19:11):
It's a very common thing where people will tell me
they have people that werefriends with them who kind of
avoid them now, or they see themand they kind of turn the other
way, like like, because they'reUncomfortable.
uncomfortable They don't knowhow to talk to you, because I
don't think that people realizethat it's okay to mention your
child's name, it's okay to havethose memories.
In fact, I want to hear aboutthose stories didn't hear before
(19:34):
, because that's that's all wehave , and so don't to speak
up.
I I like this one.
She you will get this next n atpeople that mean well, you will
get angry at people that meanyeah, all the time, mean well,
w.
Zadi Ashbrook (19:49):
All the time.
Tim Maceyko (19:50):
Yeah, and don't you feel guilty?
oo?
?
, like because not them, it'sother thing going on, and then
you go uh, I should have beennicer about that.
Zadi Ashbrook (19:59):
Yeah, I yeah, it's really bad.
I feel maybe you do understand,but I feel like sometimes my
sadness will come out in angeror irritability.
Really for me, I feel bad aboutit.
I always do.
I always feel super, super bad,but it's, it's a thing.
Tim Maceyko (20:16):
Yeah, I guess I'm mentioning it iso that people,
if you're listening to the, theshow that you understand that if
someone's lost a child or evenloved a Love one in and are o
and so suffering and grieving,they're likely to lash out and
you might get mad at them, belike, oh I acted can't believe
they act understand if ithat'sthat's.
If that's not them normally,that's probably not them now.
It's the emotions and thedifficulty they're going through
So, So keep that in mind.
(20:37):
They need your support and morethan ever.
N agree with that one.
Zadi Ashbrook (20:48):
Nothing else to say, really, I mean.
Tim Maceyko (20:50):
I agree.
Let's move on.
You will feel happiness attimes, but it will always be
coupled with sadness.
Zadi Ashbrook (20:58):
I just had this moment when I was at the beach.
Yeah, I was super happy, justbeing so peaceful, and then I
got sad.
Same thing happens with, likebirthdays and it's I'm excited
that it's my 21st birthday.
This is so fun.
(21:18):
I'm supposed to party and thenI'm crying on my way to my party
because I wish my baby was here.
And it doesn't make any sensebecause he wouldn't be there
anyways.
You know, like he wouldn't evenbe at my 21st birthday.
Tim Maceyko (21:34):
So, i it makes total t sense.
It makes total sense, though,., l this but let et very
first this, this - - - youfelt happiness, whether you
laughed or you smiled, when wyoufelt that the very first time
after your son died, how did itmake you feel when you, when you
had that moment of laughterremember?
Zadi Ashbrook (21:54):
Definitely the first thought was how could I be
laughing right now or how couldI be enjoying life when he
passed away two days ago?
Yeah, that doesn't make anysense, like I'm supposed to be
sad for the rest of my life,always.
Tim Maceyko (22:08):
Yes, and that's the point I wanted to make for
everybody was t because recallthe same exact thing.
I forget why it was, whathappened, but I remember I
laughed finally, like after like, however, many , , laughed,
then I was so horrified that Ihad the audacity to laugh and to
feel good and to be happy whenmy son was lying there you know,
(22:29):
not here and I hated myself inthat here, moment for for, for
feeling good and feeling, andand I was wondering if happy.
and.
nd way and you said you didyeah, it's horrible to feel
guilty for being Happy maybe noteven happy just having like a
happy, nice laugh.
Zadi Ashbrook (22:47):
I don't even know why I laughed, it might have
been a video that I saw, yeah,but it did feel good.
And, yeah, I felt badafterwards, but I think that
kind of sparked like a thoughtin my head, he wouldn't want me
to be sad for the rest of mylife, you know, and I think that
was kind of one of the Biggerbigger points where I'm like
(23:08):
like, allowed to be happy happy,it's okay good for you.
Tim Maceyko (23:11):
That's exactly what it's supposed to be.
You know, they would not wantus to be unhappy and have to
keep living.
So yeah.
Don't feel guilty if you have amoment of happiness at some
point point!, on , let's soare not gonna know when
that's going to occur.
of like going to you just saida moment ago, where one minute
You're happy, what?
Next minute you're sad?
It just you're pops up Nthenext coaster.
(23:33):
sad, it might have up, like,okay, I'm getting through this,
I'm moving on onto a having agood day and then boom, right
and where I was day, in theshower that morning.
Zadi Ashbrook (23:43):
Yeah, it always shows up at, I wouldn't say the
worst times, but like rightI'm about to leave and go to
somebody's house or I house,.
to go out in the public and Twopublic, minutes before two that
I'm crying in the car and a car,lot of the times it comes over
me at like four in the morningand Then morning, I just then
(24:04):
don't sleep for the rest of theday.
So kind of So, yeah, it does,it does, it creeps up on you and
I would say, most of the timepretty bad time, timing.
I really a thinkne NextooneNext ois Next: - - n.
People will surprise you, andshe mentioned about, I actually
talked about how the people thatyou thought would be there
(24:25):
maybe weren't and the peoplethat you didn't expect to be
there were, and how that maychange the way you view the
relationships around you.
Yes, I've had to create some distance with people
I never thought I would have to, especially in this moment, and
then a lot of people I'vebecome really close with.
(24:48):
That I never not I would, butI wouldn't assume that and would
bring us closer.
It's interesting.
Tim Maceyko (24:56):
Yeah, I agree.
The other thing she says hereis it is not strength I possess,
it is necessity.
So people always say you're sostrong, I wish I could be like
you.
And it's not strength, it's anecessity.
Zadi Ashbrook (25:10):
Yeah, because if you're not, you don't know what
could happen.
You know it's just, it's all itis, it's out of necessity.
I never really thought of itthat way, but I've been hearing
that a lot.
Yeah, you're so strong, you'rethe strongest person I know.
I could never go through that.
I'm like, I didn't think Icould either.
You know, but it really wasn'ta choice.
It's my life now.
Tim Maceyko (25:30):
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there
.
I apologize.
I was going to say it's anotherpost traumatic growth thing
where you realize this innerstrength that you never would
have realized if you hadn't gonethrough what you went through.
And so that's one of those PTGgrowth things that she's
actually talking about here.
And then I like this one.
I'll just leave one more here.
She had 21 of these, but I'mnot ngoing to hit them all But
But you will survive.
(25:52):
You will survive, and I thinkthat's very profound in the
sense that you feel like you'renot going to, especially in the
early days, weeks, months.
You don't know how you're goingto make it through, but you
will.
You just got to keep the faithand hold on to hope.
Zadi Ashbrook (26:06):
Yeah, and the really, really hard moments
where I'm just bawling my eyesout, especially in the very
beginning, that chest pain andno, you know what I'm talking
about, like this hole in myheart and this egg it feels like
it could kill you really, andthen just the thought of
imagining your future withoutthem there is just, you really
(26:30):
can't imagine it, and it seemslike for me it seemed like, well
, if I can't imagine it, thenit's just not going to happen.
I'm just not going to make itto this future that I'm thinking
about.
So it was, yeah, but I don'tfeel that way now.
So, it's a good thing.
Tim Maceyko (26:45):
That's a good thing , that's a real good thing.
I'm glad you don't feel thatway.
I don't feel that way now.
So, that was just some of thethings that she had mentioned in
her article, and there's a lotmore.
Feel free to check that articleout, but I wanted to kind of
touch base it with you on thefirst things that you're
experiencing.
So, when is his birthday?
Have you experienced that yet?
Zadi Ashbrook (27:04):
Yeah, April 18th.
Tim Maceyko (27:06):
And what was that like for you?
Zadi Ashbrook (27:08):
I was kind of numb on the actual day.
We had a little get together.
We had a little get together.
We had a bunch of family andfriends get together at this
little place.
We had food, we had cake, wehad everyone bring baby clothes
and toys that we could go donate.
And, yeah, I didn't really feela lot, though I didn't cry or
(27:32):
anything.
It was just I'm here and Ialmost felt like why am I here?
Like why am I doing this?
This makes no sense.
It was I don't know, but theday after was horrible.
It was horrible.
It was the worst.
Like I think that was the firsttime in my life that I have
ever wailed.
Is that the right word?
(27:53):
Yeah, I mean, it was just asound that I've never heard
before.
I couldn't breathe.
It was.
It was really a lot.
Tim Maceyko (28:01):
Yeah, I think you hit on like a lot of people,
feel numb and the thing is, thefirst year is the absolute worst
.
Now, year two for me wasn'tmuch better, but the first year,
like you said, you kind ofsleepwalk almost through a lot
of things.
You feel like a zombie in a lotof ways.
It's not just the firstbirthday, it's the holidays,
you know, whether it's Easter oryou and Thanksgiving and
(28:23):
Halloween's horrible for youknow w all the kids out there
doing that thing.
You think about the momentsyou're not going to have and all
those things.
But also, it's the change ofseasons.
You know, when you go from oneseason to the next it can really
affect you because, like for myson, he was five years old when
he passed, and so the springand it's its season, the to
like ready for and so yourmind goes to that.
(28:46):
And the local t-ball field.
You drive ball-ball and thekids are out there playing and
just melt your ,, ymelt, 10years heart hurts later, because
you're like he never got to dothat, he was supposed to start
that year, that he had year.
You know, going back to school,going back to school season is
rough for some people, and so itwas all these different times.
But the birthdays and the deathdays are noted as two of the
(29:10):
absolute most horrendous forchild loss parents, and so I
just want to mention that thatdon't be surprised if you're out
there and those are reallydifficult for you.
They just are, they always willbe.
And this year we did a 10 yearreunion.
We actually got everybody backtogether at the house and we did
a balloon release, something wehaven't done.
You know I'm not real big onballoon releases just because
(29:32):
they bust and they bust, allover.
You know it's not great for thenature, but it was a way to
remember him, and we whadeverybody here an and evening
for a few hours, and it was justnice to have some of the faces
we haven't seen in a whilewhile, also just the fact that
people remembered even 10 yearslater later, you feel a little
better.
Zadi Ashbrook (29:50):
Yeah, I feel like everything is just super
difficult because I only got oneholiday with him throughout the
year.
You know, I got one Easter,which I really didn't, because
he was born the day after Easter, so I really didn't, and so
that reminds me of that.
One Halloween, one, didn't evenget to Christmas, so Christmas
(30:14):
is going to suck.
Tim Maceyko (30:16):
Y.
Zadi Ashbrook (30:17):
It's going to suck again.
I don't know.
I feel like it's.
Yeah, it's the holidays thatprobably hit the worst.
Yeah, not looking forward tothem.
Tim Maceyko (30:26):
You know, the big thing, the reason we are doing
these, is I'm doing a series onpeople who have lost a child,
and we're going to talk aboutdifferent topics in order to
hopefully help some people outthere who can go.
Hey, that's not just me, I'm notthe only one that feels that
way, I'm not the only one thatdoes those things or reacts that
way, and so, I reallyappreciate you coming on and
(30:47):
talking with us today, and maybehere in the future I'll have
you back on for another show.
I'd like to get two or threepeople on and have kind of a
group discussion about,especially that people say.
I think that needs to be agroup of us to sit down around
the table and talk about it froma viewpoint of the things that
hurt us, but also why they hurtand what works Like what did
(31:09):
people say or works,. like thatactually were beneficial.
So I think that's an importanttopic So, too.
So I'm looking forward to dothat I'd love to have on that,
if you want to maybe come backon again and do that, of course.
Zadi Ashbrook (31:19):
Hopefully I'll be able to get my words out better
.
Tim Maceyko (31:23):
It's okay.
That's why I like podcastingthough, because it's real.
It's not some polished up fakeTV show.
Even reality TV is not real.
This right here is the worst.
Yeah, it's crazy, but this isreal.
Your four-year-old daughtercomes in and messes up, and I'm
worried about my dogs barkingover here and scratching the
(31:45):
door that I have shut behind me.
Zadi Ashbrook (31:46):
Yeah, my neighbor started weed-wacking my house.
That was crazy.
Tim Maceyko (31:54):
Hey, he got it done though, didn't he?
Apparently, apparently, he did.
Ok, do you have anything elseyou want to add, or have we
covered enough for you today?
Zadi Ashbrook (32:03):
I feel like maybe the only thing I'll say is just
try to stay as positive as youcan, and that really is the only
thing that got me through thefirst couple months, and it was
not necessarily the most healthything to do, but I was positive
enough to just keep going andthat's what got me to this point
(32:25):
, and now we're working on thehealthy parts of coping.
But really I feel like you justhave to do what you have to do,
to just stay here and you'llfigure it out eventually.
Tim Maceyko (32:38):
Well, Zadi, thank you for coming on.
We'll definitely have you back.
Zadi Ashbrook (32:41):
Thank you.
Tim Maceyko (32:42):
And thanks everybody for listening.
Hopefully you found somethingbeneficial from today's show.
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