July 27, 2025 • 35 mins
What makes two people stay committed through nearly four decades of marriage? It's a question worth exploring in a world where relationships often seem disposable.
Marriage is a complex, beautiful journey that requires constant navigation, especially when life throws curveballs. In this deeply personal conversation, I open up alongside my husband John about our upcoming 37-year anniversary and the winding path that brought us here. We don't hold back—sharing the moments when divorce seemed like the only answer, the mindset shifts that saved our relationship, and how we've learned to dance between individuality and partnership.
John reveals a perspective that many men struggle to articulate: how watching your wife evolve and grow requires flexibility and adaptation. "If the woman that you married is maturing, she's going to change," he explains, offering rare insight into how successful husbands approach their wives' personal development. Meanwhile, I share candidly about feeling suffocated by expectations and the liberation that came when I was finally encouraged to be authentically myself.
We explore marriage as more than just a relationship—it's a ministry, an example, and a constantly evolving partnership. The conversation dives into how couples can maintain their individuality while functioning as one unit, why some men feel threatened by successful wives, and the importance of understanding marriage as a true partnership rather than a hierarchy.
Whether you're newly married, contemplating marriage, or decades into your journey together, our honest reflection offers practical wisdom about weathering difficult seasons, communicating effectively, and finding joy in the push and pull of partnership. This isn't about perfection—it's about persistence, authenticity, and choosing each other every day.
Ready to strengthen your relationship? Subscribe to Faith Unmuted for more honest conversations about faith, marriage, and living authentically.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to Faith Unmuted.
The place where Christian womenget the opportunity to press
the button and say what theywant, how they want and exactly
how they feel.
The one place where, together,we can collectively walk through
our truths, liveunapologetically and stop hiding
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Speaker 2 (00:33):
So here's the hot topic marriage.
Why did you get married?
How about this?
Why did I get married?
Why are you still married andwhy do you want to get married?
So, of course, I have mybeautiful husband here.
He is my life partner, he is mybest friend, he is my lover.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, I prefer handsome.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
He is my handsome, handsome husband, John Graham.
So let's talk about marriage.
So well, first, before we talkabout that, hold on Coming up.
We'll be married 37 years.
37 years we've been together.
37 years, that's three andseven.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, we've been talking about whether we're
going to make it to that 37.
It's coming up next month, sowe've got less than three weeks
and I'm wondering can we make itthat far?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
do you think we could make it?
Why would we not make it?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
why would we not make it?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
yeah tell what why would we not make it to 37?
I'm not going to to 37, I'm notgonna kill you.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I hope not the only, yeah, I think the only way that
we would not make it and andit's not really us, but the only
way that you can come as far aswe've come in um in marriage
and not make it to years if wedecided that we absolutely did
not want to do this anymore andthe entire 37 years was not
(02:14):
worth where we are now.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh, I love that.
We decided we did not want todo this anymore, and the 37
years would have meant nothing.
And so we've really worked hardon a healthy marriage, because
at one point I don't think ourmarriage was healthy.
I mean, it was somewhat healthy, but yet not.
You know we were.
You know we would have ourdisagreements and and and and
(02:38):
and.
Let's let me just be honest.
There were times where I feltlike you know what this is,
we're just not going to make itand and, so we might as well end
the relationship.
But I remember one time inparticular here we go.
We were having.
We were having a heateddiscussion and and I was done,
(03:01):
and he just got tired of measking him for telling him I'm
getting a divorce.
So this time we were having Idon't even remember what we were
arguing about, but we weregoing at it and honestly, he
wasn't much of the arguer I mean, you were quiet somewhat, but
he would.
He would say what he had to sayand this particular time, you
know, I basically said I'm done,I'm ready for a divorce.
(03:24):
And he just finally said Esther, fine, you can leave, but what
you will not do is take my kids.
And I looked at him and I saidyou want to keep the kids?
And he said, yeah, you canleave, go do whatever you want
to do.
Leave my children with me, Itell y'all.
I sat and I thought about it.
(03:45):
I never said I did and Ithought I'm not leaving my
children with him.
And he looks serious.
So like, like, I can leave butleave his kids.
I was like, oh no, and so Inever asked for a divorce again.
But what I did do mindset shift, what I did do as I began, I
began to work on me and I said,okay, my marriage is important.
(04:07):
These are my children's father,and I need to work on this.
And so that's really, I think,um, where our marriage began to
get better Now.
Now listen, I'm not saying he'sperfect, he's not, but, um, and
I'm not, you know, he's neveronce asked me for a divorce.
I'm not saying he's perfect,he's not, but, and I'm not, you
know, he's never once asked mefor a divorce.
(04:28):
I'm not, you know, he may havethought it, but he's never said
it, when I would say it out loud.
But why?
I mean why, stay married?
What's why?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I see marriage as not just the two of us loving each
other, being in love and raisinga family.
I see our marriage as not justfor us.
Our marriage is a ministry,right, you know, because God
says your first ministry is athome, right, um?
So I see it as, um, we have aresponsibility to, to uh, to be
(05:14):
and to set an example, not onlyfor our children but everyone
really that comes in contactwith us.
Right as to what marriage atleast what we believe marriage
should look like, and whatmarriage should be right,
everyone, every marriage isdifferent, let's say that.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
But I believe having an example of a good marriage
gives you an opportunity toexample of a good marriage gives
you an opportunity to uh, tohave a good marriage yourself,
yeah, so let's get.
Let's get to some real talk.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Um, it's marriage.
We've struggled sometimes inour marriage.
Share a little bit about thatbecause I think, like in areas
we struggle differently, like wehave a great marriage.
You know we love each otherThirty seven years.
(06:14):
I don't want to give anybodythe idea that we're just like,
oh no, we worked on this, weworked on us.
And so talk a little bit aboutjust from your own personal,
your personal story aboutmarriage, because I talk about
mine all the time.
Right, Personal story.
What's your personal story withwith our marriage and and the
(06:38):
times where it has beendifficult for you in our
marriage?
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
So you did mention that, uh you, however many times
.
Incidentally, if I had $1 foreach time that you said that you
wanted a divorce, I'd probablybe Richard and Elon Musk.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Whatever, I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Well, maybe not quite that many times, but I really
feel that you know, as far asour marriage, that it's my
responsibility to learn you, tostudy you right you to study you
(07:24):
right To um, to learn your,your changes.
Because, um, oftentimes I hear,I've heard so many guys say,
man, my wife has changed.
She's not, you know, the personthat she was when, uh, when we
got married.
She doesn't like all thesethings that we, uh, that she
liked before.
(07:44):
Man, it's just blowing my mind.
I don't know what to do.
Da, da, da, da, da.
So you know, you go out feelingthat she's just totally
dissatisfied with you, so you goand do something stupid.
You know what I mean.
And the fact is, if the womanthat you married is maturing,
(08:07):
she's going to change.
She's going to not like some ofthe things that she liked when
she was younger and she's goingto gravitate towards some things
that she didn't gravitatetowards when she was younger.
Because she's changing, she'smaturing, she's growing, she's
figuring out, really, who she isright and she's figuring out
(08:32):
the wife that she wants to be.
She's figuring out the personthat she wants to be.
She's figuring out, you know,how she wants to move if it's in
the corporate world, or how shewants to move in this world, in
entrepreneurship or whateverthe case may be.
So there are going to bechanges, there's going to be
growth.
There's going to be so manythings that shift and you've got
(08:58):
to be able to shift with it,because the same thing should be
happening to you.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's good.
So like has there ever been atime that you could share with
everyone, where you just reallyfelt like?
I'm done you're done or youknow, you were just hurt.
You were just like, yeah,you're done, Like what, what?
You know what?
Has there been a struggle timeto where you just felt like you
(09:25):
know what?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
um, I love this woman , but but I'm not gonna let her
keep throwing shoes at my hondaprelude.
Yeah, I was like almost donethen because I loved that car
man, but uh so I used to be ashoe thrower yep, she's got a
(09:50):
lot of shoes.
Okay, a lot of shoes, I do,yeah, but, but, uh, but, on a
serious note, um, um, really um.
I guess there have been timesthat, um, and I can't really put
my finger on it, dig deep.
Any particular time.
(10:11):
Um um, there have been times,you know, and it's hard
sometimes for a man to say thatI was hurt versus I was mad or
angry.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
But anger comes from um, from hurt.
It comes from um from hurt, itcomes from disappointment.
So, uh, so I could say, yeah,that I may have been angry, but
it was because I may have beenhurt, maybe by something that
was said yeah, um, or I feltneglected one, I, I got one.
Okay, I got one um desert storm, right, the doctor situation,
(10:43):
you remember that no, I don't,you know, I don't.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Oh well, start the story, I don't oh oh my gosh,
sorry y'all, I don't rememberthe story.
Do you want to share the storyor no?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
uh, I'll share the story okay, so, um, there was a
guy that, um that I want to sayhead over heels in love, but
liked you.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
No, he was head over heels in love with me, bro.
Okay, I thought you didn'tremember.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Let's get there.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, I just did, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Go ahead, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, go ahead, yeah.
So I'm in the sand.
You know sandstorms, you knowdrinking sand and everything
during the war, and it wasdifficult to get to a landline
or a phone to.
(11:40):
You know, to call home, to callhome, and I can't remember
exactly how it happened, but youwere friends, right.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah, we were.
And I believe it was a friendzone for you it was, it was a
friend zone for me.
It may not have been a friend.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Well, he was in the friend zone, but he didn't want
to be in the friend zone.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah Right, he was definitely in the friend zone.
For me, definitely in thefriend zone, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah.
For sure, but I was seven 8,000miles away, right and um and uh
, um, we had a conversation andthe conversation, uh, was about
not being in touch and all ofthose sorts of things, so, um,
(12:28):
so you mentioned that, um, that,um, um, you guys were going to
dinner or something like that Ithink we were going out to lunch
or dinner.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And yeah, so I'm like I'm 7,000, 8,000 miles away and
it really really bothered me,right, yeah, and but I didn't
consider I was, you know, I was,I thought.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So let me just so.
It really bothered him, right.
But for me I thought tellinghim, oh, I'm going out to dinner
or lunch, whatever it was, waslike me saying, hey, just FYI,
I'm going out to lunch with thisdoctor friend of mine, that
we've been friends and you know.
For me I thought that wasinformation sharing and you
(13:22):
should be good because at leastI'm telling you.
I mean, but that's how we think, right, at least I'm telling
you, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
A normal, if we had a normal conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And and everything was good that probably would
have been, would have set well,yeah, right, but our
conversation wasn't well, Iguess it was normal, but it was.
It was a heated conversation,okay, right, and you ended it by
saying, yeah, by the way, dot,dot, dot, dot, dot, right, and,
and, and here's the thing.
(13:53):
And here's the thing, um, so,we, so, so we're on these phone
lines.
This is way back, right.
We're on these phone lineswhere you can barely hear each
other.
You know they're static andeverything else like that.
Again, we're, you know, 8 000we didn't have cell phones or
anything like that and you aninternational call and cost you
(14:13):
a whole lot, but it was agovernment thing.
So, so, um, um, before we couldactually, you know, and it was
timed, so before we couldactually really really, um,
finish off the conversation, hegoes, it's cut, and I got about
30 guys waiting behind me to getin to make enough to make a
(14:36):
phone call to their family.
So once you lost it, you wereout of there.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
So I had that to brew on.
You know, never mind, you knowgetting shot at and everything
else right.
You know what I mean.
That thing that was on my mind.
More than that, I think thatmight have been one of my most
heroic days.
I didn't care about anything,really.
(15:03):
Yeah, so, uh, so yeah.
That would have been the onetime that I that I thought, you
know, um, did I make a mistake?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
mistake.
I've never heard that Right.
Yeah, did you make a mistake?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
No, I didn't make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
What makes you think that you?
I know we've been married 37years, but there's a there's
people, by the way, that staymarried forever but they're not
happy, right, you know?
I know someone that they weremarried for, ooh, 50 something
years, but they were.
They were not happy, they werejust in a marriage together.
Well, I've never spoken to him,but I spoke a lot with her,
(15:47):
just not happy.
Well, why aren't you divorced?
Or why don't you leave?
Why don't you do this?
Well, I mean, this is what wedo we stay together.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I think there's a difference.
You can be unhappy and bemarried in a marriage and be
unhappy, and you can also be inand settle with that and just
say, well, that's going to bethe rest of my life, I'm just
(16:19):
going to you know, we're goingto exist together.
We may sleep in different roomsor whatever and make up your
mind that you're going to staymarried like that.
Right, that's not me.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
You can also be unhappy in a marriage and decide
that you're going to dosomething about it.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Right.
You can also be unhappy in amarriage and decide that you're
going to do something about it,right, right.
And that's when things begin toget better.
Because when you say, you know,I'm unhappy, your mindset is
I'm just going to keep going theway, that I am not going to say
anything anymore, and you'renot getting any better.
You're just going through itboth, miserable as you can be,
(16:59):
right, yeah.
But then when you start talkingabout it, you realize the
things that bother you, right,the things that bother your
partner, the things that thethings that you want to to do
together and achieve that youcan't do if you don't talk and
communicate, that you can't doif you don't start liking each
(17:22):
other at least yeah that's true,you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I remember, like at a point where I was unhappy in
our marriage and I had to make adecision to I didn't want to
get a divorce, I was going toremain in this marriage, and so
remaining in the marriage for memeant that I needed to be happy
in my marriage, because I'm notthat person that's going to
stick with you, and you knowthis.
I'm not going to stick with youif I'm not happy.
(17:47):
And I see that there's noresolution and that I'm working
on this marriage, but you're notworking on the marriage, you
know.
And so now it's just me,because the marriage does take
two, and we both have to decidethat we want the marriage.
And when we decide that we wantthe marriage, what does this
look like for us?
What does it look like?
(18:08):
You know and I think that's whata lot of people miss that if
I'm going to stay in thismarriage, what does it look like
for us?
I don't want to not have joy, Iwant to be able to do great
things together, and I thinkthat's where we both decided
that.
Even listen, there's seasons ofmarriages, right, and it's kind
(18:30):
of like spring, summer, winter,spring fall the four seasons.
Marriage goes through that aswell, and so sometimes you have
a season to where it's rough.
It's dark, like winter, youknow.
And then if you work on it, youknow winter goes, it eventually
(18:54):
passes, but you got to bewilling to walk through the
winter.
you know, right, yeah, and Ithink that's what we did.
I mean, you know, you look atour marriage now, and not that
we don't have challenges, noteven that we don't even have
disagreements, it's just thatit's just different.
You know what I mean.
And number one, we're-.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And we disagree differently.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
We just exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Exactly when we were younger.
As we mature, we disagreeddifferently.
Disagree with a solution inmind.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Right.
Disagree with wanting to cometo, wanting to come to an
agreement, but not to agree,just to, not just to go along,
just to get along.
Yeah, yeah, not just to go.
Yeah, I like that.
Not just to go along, just toget along.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah, not just to go.
Yeah, I like that, not just togo along, just to get along.
And then and I think a part ofit with me is that, especially
as you know, he's a pastor, andso now we're in this whole other
mode of pastoring and Ihonestly felt like wait a minute
like I was being suffocated.
You know, at one point, youknow there's nothing new, you
(19:58):
know, felt as if I was beingsuffocated and so I felt as if I
couldn't be myself, because nowI now had to be, you know, the
pastor's wife, pastor's wife.
And it took a while, and Ithink, even for you, that you
(20:22):
wanted me this is my perspectivethat you wanted me a certain
way, because now I'm thispastor's wife and so I've got to
conduct myself a certain way.
And do you?
This is what I'm saying.
And I was like, and I did it,it I showed up real well, but
after a while that's youropinion.
No, just kidding but after awhile it just kind of got old to
(20:44):
me, and I think one of thethings that really released me
is that for me, when you got tothe point to where you just
allowed me just to be me, youknow know, I was saying thank
you for letting me be myselfagain, yeah, and so you just
said just be you.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Although sometimes I was.
I think it was difficult foryou for me to be me Like.
I know sometimes you're like,oh God.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, it's like well, I want you to be you.
Oh, my goodness, that's kind ofoverbording.
But in full transparency, Ijust begin to enjoy watching you
blossom into who you really aremeant to be.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah Right be, yeah Right yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, and if there were jealousy, then that would
have been an issue.
I mean jealousy on my part Foryou being allowed to be yourself
.
I still felt at a certain pointthat I had to maintain this
certain persona or whatever thecase may be Right While you were
(22:00):
being free.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Right and um, and then it took, um, it took that
for me to begin to, uh, let'ssee how long my hair is.
Right To begin to let my hairdown, you know what I mean.
And uh, when I began to let myhair down right to begin to let
my hair down, you know what Imean.
And when I begin to let my hairdown, I begin to really enjoy
it.
Right, but I still had therelationship with God that I
(22:26):
needed to have, right, and Istill have the relationship that
I need to have.
All of our relationships canget better, right and the same.
And I talk about this, I talkabout the triangle um in um, in
in marriage.
So, um, god's at the top, we'reat, you know, at these separate
(22:46):
corners, when we come together,we think we're closer than we
could ever be.
You know, when we uh, when weget married, and I do this, um,
this example, when I uh, when Ido marriage ceremonies, but then
um, but then the closer we cometo God, the closer we come to
one another.
(23:07):
Yeah, right, and we meet Godwhere he is and we meet.
I meet the real you, the onethat God sees, the one that God
ordained, the one that God lovesright, and then you meet me
there as well.
So the closer we get to him,the closer we get to one another
.
And when we realize that well,when I realized it, it's I've
(23:30):
got to get closer to him so thatI can see you more, so that I
can know you more so that I canlearn you more Right and yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So and so, with the different stages in life, you
know, in in this journey calledmarriage, it's two individuals
coming together as one.
So you know, we come togetherand we become now a team, but
we're still individuals andsometimes, I believe, if we're
not careful because I know thiswas me as well you lose yourself
(24:02):
because you become so much apart of that person's life.
Like you know, you're now yourchildren's mother, your
husband's or your spouse's wifeor spouse, and you know.
And so who are you like?
Hey, wait a minute, I'm Esther,that's here.
You know what I mean.
But you become someone else.
(24:23):
How do you maintain yourindividuality and still come
together as one?
Yeah, because I will tell youthat when I felt as if I was
losing myself, that I became andyou know this as well I became
very resentful.
I'm like why does he get to doall that?
(24:44):
I have to do this?
He doesn't look like if he'sever bothered about this.
Why am I worried about this?
And he looks perfectly finegoing to sleep at night and I'm
up and he's knocked out.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Well, the Bible does say that he gives his beloved
sleep.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
So I'm not his beloved.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I'm just saying you said you want to sleep, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
But yeah, so how do you?
You know, because I think Ithink especially women,
especially the women, they needto know how do we maintain our
individuality while we're stilla part of this marriage and how
can our spouses, our husbands,honor us in that?
Because, let's face it, somemen are threatened by the
(25:31):
success of their wife.
This is a reality, right Oftheir wife, okay, this is a
reality right.
And many marriages andrelationships break up because,
right, that woman is successfuland the man feels threatened.
Talk about that.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
I think one of the major problems, one of the major
problems there is that it's notlooked at from the beginning as
a partnership.
Yeah, it's looked at as yeah,or maybe looked at as a
partnership, but I'm always thatsenior partner right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So I have to make the decisions and what I say goes
this, that and everything else,and that's not a real
partnership.
Right, partnership is agreement, discussion, you know all of
those things to make it workright.
So I think you can be, you canmaintain your individuality.
I mean, you can even look backbiblically right Moses, right
(26:34):
Moses was about to be killed byGod.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Right, but his wife had her own relationship with
God and knew what she wassupposed to do, or knew what was
supposed to be done.
So she goes and she what's theword?
I don't know, I really don'tknow.
That's off the foreskin of herson.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh, ok, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Right, and that saved Moses' life right, because the
woman did not necessarily whatshe was supposed to do, but what
was supposed to be done.
Yeah, and if you understand apartnership, right, it's like,
yeah, this may be my job, right,and this may be what I'm
(27:23):
supposed to do, but if you'renot doing it, then it needs to
be done.
So we do it and I think we got—it's a revelation of a
difference, isn't it?
It's a revelation of adifference, and we operate that
way.
You know, I'm the cook.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, amen of a difference and we operate that
way, you know it's.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
You know I'm the cook , yeah amen, amen.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
He's the cook and chief, not the bottle washer.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Okay, he's definitely not the bottle washer.
Yeah, yeah, I'll cook, but Iain't cleaning, so so, so, but,
but we, uh, we learn to floateverything you can't have
everything right so you canmaintain your individuality, but
then still flow together andrealize where your strengths are
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I you know when she was, she was dating this guy and
and they, they kind of juststarted dating, getting to know
(28:25):
each other, and and she was wasin the process of making some
decisions about her next step Ibelieve it was in her career,
about her next step.
I believe it was in her career.
And so she asked him for youknow what was his thought about
different things.
And so, just a conversation,we're just talking, I just want
(28:46):
to know your opinion on this orthat.
And so he gave her his opinionand suggestions, and then, I
guess, but she made up her ownmind and she did something
totally different that shedecided to do and and something
that he didn't say.
And so when they got back toyou know, when they talked about
(29:07):
each other and she said, ohyeah, no, I decided to do this,
he said to her well, how couldyou decide to do that when I
gave you this suggestions ofblah, blah, blah, you know, on
doing it like this, why even askme?
And then he said if you'regoing to do what you want to do,
and then he said how can we betogether if you're going to do
what you want to do and not takemy suggestions?
(29:29):
And my daughter said wait aminute, I'm a physician,
remember?
She said I'm a whole doctorhere, I've studied why I have to
do what you're telling me to do.
I was just asking.
And then the other point.
She said and we're not evenmarried, so right, you know.
But but this is it.
I think sometimes it's expected.
Like you know, I'm the head,I'm the man you walk 10 steps
(29:52):
behind me, kind of like what youtried to do in Dubai.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, I did it Right because you knew where we were.
You had to right.
And then you got smart and saysyeah, can I take off this?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Hijab, this is a hijab.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
And I was like, did I give you permission?
I did not give you permissionto speak.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Listen, he was having such a good time with that that
I thought to myself boy, whenhe gets back on the grounds of
the United States of America,he's going to be on the doghouse
, and we don't have a doghouseoutside, but we would get one.
He was having a great time withthat.
But a lot of men take thatseriously, you know, and they
(30:37):
want.
They see women as the lesser,and even in marriage, and that
is not how it is.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And there's certain cultures that practice that, and
I don't have a completeunderstanding of why and how.
I believe that all I need toknow is what works for my
marriage.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
What really works for my marriage.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's important.
That's important and some menneed more guidance and leading
right.
And the wives take that rightand lead and guide the men.
And in other places, some womenneed more leading and guiding.
And in other places, like forours, for our marriage, it's
(31:24):
like we realize this is a pushand pull, it's a partnership.
So, hey, I'm going to pull youright and you and you know all
of those things right.
And if there's no push and pullgoing on, eventually marriage
is going to die.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, so does that mean that I have to tell you
everything, like I have to shareeverything with you?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yeah, why not?
No, not necessarily.
You don't necessarily have toshare everything, but you
shouldn't hide anything.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Oh God, let me get those shoes out the trunk of the
car.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
I'm going to see them anyway.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I already know they're there, so you don't have
to share everything, but youdon't hide.
I like that because there is adifference.
Again, that's the revelation ofa difference, right, right, you
don't have to share it becauseyou know, sometimes you hear,
well, you don't ever tell yourleft hand what your right hand
is doing right right what doesthat mean?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
um, yeah, just, you know, just flow and opera, it
depends on the person that'ssaying it and what they mean by
it, right, and how theyinterpret it.
I think not having to shareeverything that's you know,
(32:47):
necessarily have to let theright hand know what the left
hand is doing you know, thatsort of thing.
But for instance, I lost mytrain of thought.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
All right, so that's good though that's good, we're
about to end.
So any advice that you wouldgive to marriages, especially to
men and to women, because youknow sometimes there's that.
I want to speak to him becausethere's just that struggle.
Sometimes we're trying to dothe best that we could do and
sometimes we've got difficultmen to deal with.
They can't handle our success.
(33:20):
They can't handle that we areindividuals.
They can't handle that we maybe assertive.
They misplace our assertivenessand say we're aggressive when
we're not, we're just beingassertive.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Where the fear comes in, in men and this is just my
opinion Just quickly who havesuccessful wives.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Where the fear comes in is you're becoming so
successful that you're going toleave me behind and you're not
going to want me.
So what stops them from?
I have to put my thumb.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
On you yeah.
Yeah, but why don't they justsay let me, let me do something
that's going to keep me happytoo?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Easier said than done .
Pride right.
The man feeling that oh Godforbid if the woman makes more
than the man.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
You know what I mean, and some men can't handle that.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Some of them go out and have affairs.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
To do what?
To validate themselves?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Who knows why, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah.
So what I would say is studyher, be the best version of
yourself that you can be, striveto be, and if you feel like
you're not there, there's alwayshelp.
There's coaches around, thereare mentors.
Get in the room with peoplethat are doing marriage or doing
(34:44):
life better than what you'redoing right, and then you'll
grow into that.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
And just be authentic in your marriage.
Yeah, that's, it, just beauthentic.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Be Authentic.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Wasn't that episode amazingLiving unapologetically, faith
unmuted has allowed us onceagain to ask ourselves the kind
of questions that will help usget to the next level and live
this life unapologetically.
Your next step head on over towwwesthergramcom and let me know
what your favorite episode is.
Ask a question or share thiswith a friend.
(35:20):
I can't wait to be with younext week as we dive deeper into
redefining what it means to bea Christian woman and redefining
what it means to live in ourtruth.
You are listening to Faith Unmuted.
The place where Christian womenget the opportunity to press
the button and say what theywant, how they want and exactly
how they feel.
The one place where, together,we can collectively walk through
our truths, liveunapologetically and stop hiding
.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So here's the hot topic marriage.
Why did you get married?
How about this?
Why did I get married?
Why are you still married andwhy do you want to get married?
So, of course, I have mybeautiful husband here.
He is my life partner, he is mybest friend, he is my lover.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, I prefer handsome.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
He is my handsome, handsome husband, John Graham.
So let's talk about marriage.
So well, first, before we talkabout that, hold on Coming up.
We'll be married 37 years.
37 years we've been together.
37 years, that's three andseven.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, we've been talking about whether we're
going to make it to that 37.
It's coming up next month, sowe've got less than three weeks
and I'm wondering can we make itthat far?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
do you think we could make it?
Why would we not make it?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
why would we not make it?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
yeah tell what why would we not make it to 37?
I'm not going to to 37, I'm notgonna kill you.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I hope not the only, yeah, I think the only way that
we would not make it and andit's not really us, but the only
way that you can come as far aswe've come in um in marriage
and not make it to years if wedecided that we absolutely did
not want to do this anymore andthe entire 37 years was not
(02:14):
worth where we are now.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh, I love that.
We decided we did not want todo this anymore, and the 37
years would have meant nothing.
And so we've really worked hardon a healthy marriage, because
at one point I don't think ourmarriage was healthy.
I mean, it was somewhat healthy, but yet not.
You know we were.
You know we would have ourdisagreements and and and and
(02:38):
and.
Let's let me just be honest.
There were times where I feltlike you know what this is,
we're just not going to make itand and, so we might as well end
the relationship.
But I remember one time inparticular here we go.
We were having.
We were having a heateddiscussion and and I was done,
(03:01):
and he just got tired of measking him for telling him I'm
getting a divorce.
So this time we were having Idon't even remember what we were
arguing about, but we weregoing at it and honestly, he
wasn't much of the arguer I mean, you were quiet somewhat, but
he would.
He would say what he had to sayand this particular time, you
know, I basically said I'm done,I'm ready for a divorce.
(03:24):
And he just finally said Esther, fine, you can leave, but what
you will not do is take my kids.
And I looked at him and I saidyou want to keep the kids?
And he said, yeah, you canleave, go do whatever you want
to do.
Leave my children with me, Itell y'all.
I sat and I thought about it.
(03:45):
I never said I did and Ithought I'm not leaving my
children with him.
And he looks serious.
So like, like, I can leave butleave his kids.
I was like, oh no, and so Inever asked for a divorce again.
But what I did do mindset shift, what I did do as I began, I
began to work on me and I said,okay, my marriage is important.
(04:07):
These are my children's father,and I need to work on this.
And so that's really, I think,um, where our marriage began to
get better Now.
Now listen, I'm not saying he'sperfect, he's not, but, um, and
I'm not, you know, he's neveronce asked me for a divorce.
I'm not saying he's perfect,he's not, but, and I'm not, you
know, he's never once asked mefor a divorce.
(04:28):
I'm not, you know, he may havethought it, but he's never said
it, when I would say it out loud.
But why?
I mean why, stay married?
What's why?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I see marriage as not just the two of us loving each
other, being in love and raisinga family.
I see our marriage as not justfor us.
Our marriage is a ministry,right, you know, because God
says your first ministry is athome, right, um?
So I see it as, um, we have aresponsibility to, to uh, to be
(05:14):
and to set an example, not onlyfor our children but everyone
really that comes in contactwith us.
Right as to what marriage atleast what we believe marriage
should look like, and whatmarriage should be right,
everyone, every marriage isdifferent, let's say that.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
But I believe having an example of a good marriage
gives you an opportunity toexample of a good marriage gives
you an opportunity to uh, tohave a good marriage yourself,
yeah, so let's get.
Let's get to some real talk.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Um, it's marriage.
We've struggled sometimes inour marriage.
Share a little bit about thatbecause I think, like in areas
we struggle differently, like wehave a great marriage.
You know we love each otherThirty seven years.
(06:14):
I don't want to give anybodythe idea that we're just like,
oh no, we worked on this, weworked on us.
And so talk a little bit aboutjust from your own personal,
your personal story aboutmarriage, because I talk about
mine all the time.
Right, Personal story.
What's your personal story withwith our marriage and and the
(06:38):
times where it has beendifficult for you in our
marriage?
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
So you did mention that, uh you, however many times
.
Incidentally, if I had $1 foreach time that you said that you
wanted a divorce, I'd probablybe Richard and Elon Musk.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Whatever, I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Well, maybe not quite that many times, but I really
feel that you know, as far asour marriage, that it's my
responsibility to learn you, tostudy you right you to study you
(07:24):
right To um, to learn your,your changes.
Because, um, oftentimes I hear,I've heard so many guys say,
man, my wife has changed.
She's not, you know, the personthat she was when, uh, when we
got married.
She doesn't like all thesethings that we, uh, that she
liked before.
(07:44):
Man, it's just blowing my mind.
I don't know what to do.
Da, da, da, da, da.
So you know, you go out feelingthat she's just totally
dissatisfied with you, so you goand do something stupid.
You know what I mean.
And the fact is, if the womanthat you married is maturing,
(08:07):
she's going to change.
She's going to not like some ofthe things that she liked when
she was younger and she's goingto gravitate towards some things
that she didn't gravitatetowards when she was younger.
Because she's changing, she'smaturing, she's growing, she's
figuring out, really, who she isright and she's figuring out
(08:32):
the wife that she wants to be.
She's figuring out the personthat she wants to be.
She's figuring out, you know,how she wants to move if it's in
the corporate world, or how shewants to move in this world, in
entrepreneurship or whateverthe case may be.
So there are going to bechanges, there's going to be
growth.
There's going to be so manythings that shift and you've got
(08:58):
to be able to shift with it,because the same thing should be
happening to you.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's good.
So like has there ever been atime that you could share with
everyone, where you just reallyfelt like?
I'm done you're done or youknow, you were just hurt.
You were just like, yeah,you're done, Like what, what?
You know what?
Has there been a struggle timeto where you just felt like you
(09:25):
know what?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
um, I love this woman , but but I'm not gonna let her
keep throwing shoes at my hondaprelude.
Yeah, I was like almost donethen because I loved that car
man, but uh so I used to be ashoe thrower yep, she's got a
(09:50):
lot of shoes.
Okay, a lot of shoes, I do,yeah, but, but, uh, but, on a
serious note, um, um, really um.
I guess there have been timesthat, um, and I can't really put
my finger on it, dig deep.
Any particular time.
(10:11):
Um um, there have been times,you know, and it's hard
sometimes for a man to say thatI was hurt versus I was mad or
angry.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
But anger comes from um, from hurt.
It comes from um from hurt, itcomes from disappointment.
So, uh, so I could say, yeah,that I may have been angry, but
it was because I may have beenhurt, maybe by something that
was said yeah, um, or I feltneglected one, I, I got one.
Okay, I got one um desert storm, right, the doctor situation,
(10:43):
you remember that no, I don't,you know, I don't.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Oh well, start the story, I don't oh oh my gosh,
sorry y'all, I don't rememberthe story.
Do you want to share the storyor no?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
uh, I'll share the story okay, so, um, there was a
guy that, um that I want to sayhead over heels in love, but
liked you.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
No, he was head over heels in love with me, bro.
Okay, I thought you didn'tremember.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Let's get there.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, I just did, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Go ahead, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, go ahead, yeah.
So I'm in the sand.
You know sandstorms, you knowdrinking sand and everything
during the war, and it wasdifficult to get to a landline
or a phone to.
(11:40):
You know, to call home, to callhome, and I can't remember
exactly how it happened, but youwere friends, right.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah, we were.
And I believe it was a friendzone for you it was, it was a
friend zone for me.
It may not have been a friend.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Well, he was in the friend zone, but he didn't want
to be in the friend zone.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah Right, he was definitely in the friend zone.
For me, definitely in thefriend zone, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah.
For sure, but I was seven 8,000miles away, right and um and uh
, um, we had a conversation andthe conversation, uh, was about
not being in touch and all ofthose sorts of things, so, um,
(12:28):
so you mentioned that, um, that,um, um, you guys were going to
dinner or something like that Ithink we were going out to lunch
or dinner.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And yeah, so I'm like I'm 7,000, 8,000 miles away and
it really really bothered me,right, yeah, and but I didn't
consider I was, you know, I was,I thought.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So let me just so.
It really bothered him, right.
But for me I thought tellinghim, oh, I'm going out to dinner
or lunch, whatever it was, waslike me saying, hey, just FYI,
I'm going out to lunch with thisdoctor friend of mine, that
we've been friends and you know.
For me I thought that wasinformation sharing and you
(13:22):
should be good because at leastI'm telling you.
I mean, but that's how we think, right, at least I'm telling
you, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
A normal, if we had a normal conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And and everything was good that probably would
have been, would have set well,yeah, right, but our
conversation wasn't well, Iguess it was normal, but it was.
It was a heated conversation,okay, right, and you ended it by
saying, yeah, by the way, dot,dot, dot, dot, dot, right, and,
and, and here's the thing.
(13:53):
And here's the thing, um, so,we, so, so we're on these phone
lines.
This is way back, right.
We're on these phone lineswhere you can barely hear each
other.
You know they're static andeverything else like that.
Again, we're, you know, 8 000we didn't have cell phones or
anything like that and you aninternational call and cost you
(14:13):
a whole lot, but it was agovernment thing.
So, so, um, um, before we couldactually, you know, and it was
timed, so before we couldactually really really, um,
finish off the conversation, hegoes, it's cut, and I got about
30 guys waiting behind me to getin to make enough to make a
(14:36):
phone call to their family.
So once you lost it, you wereout of there.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
So I had that to brew on.
You know, never mind, you knowgetting shot at and everything
else right.
You know what I mean.
That thing that was on my mind.
More than that, I think thatmight have been one of my most
heroic days.
I didn't care about anything,really.
(15:03):
Yeah, so, uh, so yeah.
That would have been the onetime that I that I thought, you
know, um, did I make a mistake?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
mistake.
I've never heard that Right.
Yeah, did you make a mistake?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
No, I didn't make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
What makes you think that you?
I know we've been married 37years, but there's a there's
people, by the way, that staymarried forever but they're not
happy, right, you know?
I know someone that they weremarried for, ooh, 50 something
years, but they were.
They were not happy, they werejust in a marriage together.
Well, I've never spoken to him,but I spoke a lot with her,
(15:47):
just not happy.
Well, why aren't you divorced?
Or why don't you leave?
Why don't you do this?
Well, I mean, this is what wedo we stay together.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I think there's a difference.
You can be unhappy and bemarried in a marriage and be
unhappy, and you can also be inand settle with that and just
say, well, that's going to bethe rest of my life, I'm just
(16:19):
going to you know, we're goingto exist together.
We may sleep in different roomsor whatever and make up your
mind that you're going to staymarried like that.
Right, that's not me.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
You can also be unhappy in a marriage and decide
that you're going to dosomething about it.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Right.
You can also be unhappy in amarriage and decide that you're
going to do something about it,right, right.
And that's when things begin toget better.
Because when you say, you know,I'm unhappy, your mindset is
I'm just going to keep going theway, that I am not going to say
anything anymore, and you'renot getting any better.
You're just going through itboth, miserable as you can be,
(16:59):
right, yeah.
But then when you start talkingabout it, you realize the
things that bother you, right,the things that bother your
partner, the things that thethings that you want to to do
together and achieve that youcan't do if you don't talk and
communicate, that you can't doif you don't start liking each
(17:22):
other at least yeah that's true,you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I remember, like at a point where I was unhappy in
our marriage and I had to make adecision to I didn't want to
get a divorce, I was going toremain in this marriage, and so
remaining in the marriage for memeant that I needed to be happy
in my marriage, because I'm notthat person that's going to
stick with you, and you knowthis.
I'm not going to stick with youif I'm not happy.
(17:47):
And I see that there's noresolution and that I'm working
on this marriage, but you're notworking on the marriage, you
know.
And so now it's just me,because the marriage does take
two, and we both have to decidethat we want the marriage.
And when we decide that we wantthe marriage, what does this
look like for us?
What does it look like?
(18:08):
You know and I think that's whata lot of people miss that if
I'm going to stay in thismarriage, what does it look like
for us?
I don't want to not have joy, Iwant to be able to do great
things together, and I thinkthat's where we both decided
that.
Even listen, there's seasons ofmarriages, right, and it's kind
(18:30):
of like spring, summer, winter,spring fall the four seasons.
Marriage goes through that aswell, and so sometimes you have
a season to where it's rough.
It's dark, like winter, youknow.
And then if you work on it, youknow winter goes, it eventually
(18:54):
passes, but you got to bewilling to walk through the
winter.
you know, right, yeah, and Ithink that's what we did.
I mean, you know, you look atour marriage now, and not that
we don't have challenges, noteven that we don't even have
disagreements, it's just thatit's just different.
You know what I mean.
And number one, we're-.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And we disagree differently.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
We just exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Exactly when we were younger.
As we mature, we disagreeddifferently.
Disagree with a solution inmind.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Right.
Disagree with wanting to cometo, wanting to come to an
agreement, but not to agree,just to, not just to go along,
just to get along.
Yeah, yeah, not just to go.
Yeah, I like that.
Not just to go along, just toget along.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah, not just to go.
Yeah, I like that, not just togo along, just to get along.
And then and I think a part ofit with me is that, especially
as you know, he's a pastor, andso now we're in this whole other
mode of pastoring and Ihonestly felt like wait a minute
like I was being suffocated.
You know, at one point, youknow there's nothing new, you
(19:58):
know, felt as if I was beingsuffocated and so I felt as if I
couldn't be myself, because nowI now had to be, you know, the
pastor's wife, pastor's wife.
And it took a while, and Ithink, even for you, that you
(20:22):
wanted me this is my perspectivethat you wanted me a certain
way, because now I'm thispastor's wife and so I've got to
conduct myself a certain way.
And do you?
This is what I'm saying.
And I was like, and I did it,it I showed up real well, but
after a while that's youropinion.
No, just kidding but after awhile it just kind of got old to
(20:44):
me, and I think one of thethings that really released me
is that for me, when you got tothe point to where you just
allowed me just to be me, youknow know, I was saying thank
you for letting me be myselfagain, yeah, and so you just
said just be you.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Although sometimes I was.
I think it was difficult foryou for me to be me Like.
I know sometimes you're like,oh God.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, it's like well, I want you to be you.
Oh, my goodness, that's kind ofoverbording.
But in full transparency, Ijust begin to enjoy watching you
blossom into who you really aremeant to be.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah Right be, yeah Right yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, and if there were jealousy, then that would
have been an issue.
I mean jealousy on my part Foryou being allowed to be yourself
.
I still felt at a certain pointthat I had to maintain this
certain persona or whatever thecase may be Right While you were
(22:00):
being free.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Right and um, and then it took, um, it took that
for me to begin to, uh, let'ssee how long my hair is.
Right To begin to let my hairdown, you know what I mean.
And uh, when I began to let myhair down right to begin to let
my hair down, you know what Imean.
And when I begin to let my hairdown, I begin to really enjoy
it.
Right, but I still had therelationship with God that I
(22:26):
needed to have, right, and Istill have the relationship that
I need to have.
All of our relationships canget better, right and the same.
And I talk about this, I talkabout the triangle um in um, in
in marriage.
So, um, god's at the top, we'reat, you know, at these separate
(22:46):
corners, when we come together,we think we're closer than we
could ever be.
You know, when we uh, when weget married, and I do this, um,
this example, when I uh, when Ido marriage ceremonies, but then
um, but then the closer we cometo God, the closer we come to
one another.
(23:07):
Yeah, right, and we meet Godwhere he is and we meet.
I meet the real you, the onethat God sees, the one that God
ordained, the one that God lovesright, and then you meet me
there as well.
So the closer we get to him,the closer we get to one another
.
And when we realize that well,when I realized it, it's I've
(23:30):
got to get closer to him so thatI can see you more, so that I
can know you more so that I canlearn you more Right and yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So and so, with the different stages in life, you
know, in in this journey calledmarriage, it's two individuals
coming together as one.
So you know, we come togetherand we become now a team, but
we're still individuals andsometimes, I believe, if we're
not careful because I know thiswas me as well you lose yourself
(24:02):
because you become so much apart of that person's life.
Like you know, you're now yourchildren's mother, your
husband's or your spouse's wifeor spouse, and you know.
And so who are you like?
Hey, wait a minute, I'm Esther,that's here.
You know what I mean.
But you become someone else.
(24:23):
How do you maintain yourindividuality and still come
together as one?
Yeah, because I will tell youthat when I felt as if I was
losing myself, that I became andyou know this as well I became
very resentful.
I'm like why does he get to doall that?
(24:44):
I have to do this?
He doesn't look like if he'sever bothered about this.
Why am I worried about this?
And he looks perfectly finegoing to sleep at night and I'm
up and he's knocked out.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Well, the Bible does say that he gives his beloved
sleep.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
So I'm not his beloved.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I'm just saying you said you want to sleep, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
But yeah, so how do you?
You know, because I think Ithink especially women,
especially the women, they needto know how do we maintain our
individuality while we're stilla part of this marriage and how
can our spouses, our husbands,honor us in that?
Because, let's face it, somemen are threatened by the
(25:31):
success of their wife.
This is a reality, right Oftheir wife, okay, this is a
reality right.
And many marriages andrelationships break up because,
right, that woman is successfuland the man feels threatened.
Talk about that.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
I think one of the major problems, one of the major
problems there is that it's notlooked at from the beginning as
a partnership.
Yeah, it's looked at as yeah,or maybe looked at as a
partnership, but I'm always thatsenior partner right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So I have to make the decisions and what I say goes
this, that and everything else,and that's not a real
partnership.
Right, partnership is agreement, discussion, you know all of
those things to make it workright.
So I think you can be, you canmaintain your individuality.
I mean, you can even look backbiblically right Moses, right
(26:34):
Moses was about to be killed byGod.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Right, but his wife had her own relationship with
God and knew what she wassupposed to do, or knew what was
supposed to be done.
So she goes and she what's theword?
I don't know, I really don'tknow.
That's off the foreskin of herson.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh, ok, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Right, and that saved Moses' life right, because the
woman did not necessarily whatshe was supposed to do, but what
was supposed to be done.
Yeah, and if you understand apartnership, right, it's like,
yeah, this may be my job, right,and this may be what I'm
(27:23):
supposed to do, but if you'renot doing it, then it needs to
be done.
So we do it and I think we got—it's a revelation of a
difference, isn't it?
It's a revelation of adifference, and we operate that
way.
You know, I'm the cook.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, amen of a difference and we operate that
way, you know it's.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
You know I'm the cook , yeah amen, amen.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
He's the cook and chief, not the bottle washer.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Okay, he's definitely not the bottle washer.
Yeah, yeah, I'll cook, but Iain't cleaning, so so, so, but,
but we, uh, we learn to floateverything you can't have
everything right so you canmaintain your individuality, but
then still flow together andrealize where your strengths are
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I you know when she was, she was dating this guy and
and they, they kind of juststarted dating, getting to know
(28:25):
each other, and and she was wasin the process of making some
decisions about her next step Ibelieve it was in her career,
about her next step.
I believe it was in her career.
And so she asked him for youknow what was his thought about
different things.
And so, just a conversation,we're just talking, I just want
(28:46):
to know your opinion on this orthat.
And so he gave her his opinionand suggestions, and then, I
guess, but she made up her ownmind and she did something
totally different that shedecided to do and and something
that he didn't say.
And so when they got back toyou know, when they talked about
(29:07):
each other and she said, ohyeah, no, I decided to do this,
he said to her well, how couldyou decide to do that when I
gave you this suggestions ofblah, blah, blah, you know, on
doing it like this, why even askme?
And then he said if you'regoing to do what you want to do,
and then he said how can we betogether if you're going to do
what you want to do and not takemy suggestions?
(29:29):
And my daughter said wait aminute, I'm a physician,
remember?
She said I'm a whole doctorhere, I've studied why I have to
do what you're telling me to do.
I was just asking.
And then the other point.
She said and we're not evenmarried, so right, you know.
But but this is it.
I think sometimes it's expected.
Like you know, I'm the head,I'm the man you walk 10 steps
(29:52):
behind me, kind of like what youtried to do in Dubai.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, I did it Right because you knew where we were.
You had to right.
And then you got smart and saysyeah, can I take off this?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Hijab, this is a hijab.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
And I was like, did I give you permission?
I did not give you permissionto speak.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Listen, he was having such a good time with that that
I thought to myself boy, whenhe gets back on the grounds of
the United States of America,he's going to be on the doghouse
, and we don't have a doghouseoutside, but we would get one.
He was having a great time withthat.
But a lot of men take thatseriously, you know, and they
(30:37):
want.
They see women as the lesser,and even in marriage, and that
is not how it is.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And there's certain cultures that practice that, and
I don't have a completeunderstanding of why and how.
I believe that all I need toknow is what works for my
marriage.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
What really works for my marriage.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's important.
That's important and some menneed more guidance and leading
right.
And the wives take that rightand lead and guide the men.
And in other places, some womenneed more leading and guiding.
And in other places, like forours, for our marriage, it's
(31:24):
like we realize this is a pushand pull, it's a partnership.
So, hey, I'm going to pull youright and you and you know all
of those things right.
And if there's no push and pullgoing on, eventually marriage
is going to die.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, so does that mean that I have to tell you
everything, like I have to shareeverything with you?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yeah, why not?
No, not necessarily.
You don't necessarily have toshare everything, but you
shouldn't hide anything.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Oh God, let me get those shoes out the trunk of the
car.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
I'm going to see them anyway.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I already know they're there, so you don't have
to share everything, but youdon't hide.
I like that because there is adifference.
Again, that's the revelation ofa difference, right, right, you
don't have to share it becauseyou know, sometimes you hear,
well, you don't ever tell yourleft hand what your right hand
is doing right right what doesthat mean?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
um, yeah, just, you know, just flow and opera, it
depends on the person that'ssaying it and what they mean by
it, right, and how theyinterpret it.
I think not having to shareeverything that's you know,
(32:47):
necessarily have to let theright hand know what the left
hand is doing you know, thatsort of thing.
But for instance, I lost mytrain of thought.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
All right, so that's good though that's good, we're
about to end.
So any advice that you wouldgive to marriages, especially to
men and to women, because youknow sometimes there's that.
I want to speak to him becausethere's just that struggle.
Sometimes we're trying to dothe best that we could do and
sometimes we've got difficultmen to deal with.
They can't handle our success.
(33:20):
They can't handle that we areindividuals.
They can't handle that we maybe assertive.
They misplace our assertivenessand say we're aggressive when
we're not, we're just beingassertive.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Where the fear comes in, in men and this is just my
opinion Just quickly who havesuccessful wives.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Where the fear comes in is you're becoming so
successful that you're going toleave me behind and you're not
going to want me.
So what stops them from?
I have to put my thumb.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
On you yeah.
Yeah, but why don't they justsay let me, let me do something
that's going to keep me happytoo?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Easier said than done .
Pride right.
The man feeling that oh Godforbid if the woman makes more
than the man.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
You know what I mean, and some men can't handle that.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Some of them go out and have affairs.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
To do what?
To validate themselves?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Who knows why, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah.
So what I would say is studyher, be the best version of
yourself that you can be, striveto be, and if you feel like
you're not there, there's alwayshelp.
There's coaches around, thereare mentors.
Get in the room with peoplethat are doing marriage or doing
(34:44):
life better than what you'redoing right, and then you'll
grow into that.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
And just be authentic in your marriage.
Yeah, that's, it, just beauthentic.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Be Authentic.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Wasn't that episode amazingLiving unapologetically, faith
unmuted has allowed us onceagain to ask ourselves the kind
of questions that will help usget to the next level and live
this life unapologetically.
Your next step head on over towwwesthergramcom and let me know
what your favorite episode is.
Ask a question or share thiswith a friend.
(35:20):
I can't wait to be with younext week as we dive deeper into
redefining what it means to bea Christian woman and redefining
what it means to live in ourtruth.
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