November 9, 2024 • 45 mins
Monique Duson's incredible journey takes center stage as she shares her transformation from championing critical race theory to embracing a historic Christian worldview. Her personal story of faith began with a simple invitation to a youth group, which led to her co-founding the Center for Biblical Unity. Through her narrative, listeners will uncover how Monique confronted the contradictions between CRT and Christian teachings, sparking her mission for racial healing rooted in scripture.
Through our exploration of critical race theory and Black liberation theology, we address their impact within church communities and broader society. Monique, alongside her ministry partner Krista Bontrager, helps navigate these complex discussions with grace and patience. Join us as we advocate for justice defined by God's standards, challenging cultural interpretations that conflict with biblical teachings.
The Center for Biblical Unity https://www.centerforbiblicalunity.com/
Small Group Curriculum Reconciled: A Biblical Approach to Racial Unity https://www.centerforbiblicalunity.com/reconciled
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRealMoniqueD
Podcasts all the things https://www.allthethingsshow.com/ She cohost with Krista Bontrager
Off Code https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSr-7Jtur6g-GxwNzyA572GPpdlsib5j0
She co-host with Kevin Briggins.
Do you want to learn how to study the Bible? Check out the YouTube channel Faithfullyliven youtube.com/@faithfullyliven
Do you want to read about how to live faithfully? Check out the blog http://lyfe102.org
Get a free Road Map to get started learning how to study the Bible https://mailchi.mp/88f9c9405da0/bible-study-road-map
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the Podcast, where we
learn how to live for Christ inour daily lives.
I'm Dwan, your host, and Iwould like to invite you on a
journey with me to explore andlearn how to be a faithful
follower of Christ.
Hey everyone, welcome toFaithfully Living, the podcast,
(00:30):
where we strive to encourage youto live for Christ faithfully.
We're offering guidance on howto study the Bible, how to
understand the Bible better andhow to remain faithful to
historic Christianity in acontemporary society.
Biblical unity and racialreconciliation these are two
powerful ideas.
These ideas are they the same?
What does the Bible speak aboutunity in a way that transcends
(00:54):
culture, racial lines, and whatdoes it look like to pursue
reconciliation according to thepages of the scriptures?
I'm excited to bring you thisreplay of a conversation that I
had with Monique Dusson, founderof a ministry called Center for
Biblical Unity.
She's going to tackle these twoideas of biblical unity versus
(01:18):
racial reconciliation.
But before we get started, letme just give you a bio on
Monique.
Like I said, she is theco-founder of a ministry called
Center for Biblical Unity.
She co-founded it with herministry partner, krista
Bontrager.
Their sisterhood in the Lord isthe cornerstone of this
(01:41):
ministry.
Monique has a background insocial services and children's
ministry.
She has worked with a diversearray of underserved communities
.
She has worked as a missionaryin South Africa for over four
years, serving children andteachers impacted by drugs,
violence and trauma.
(02:01):
She spent two decadesadvocating for critical race
theory, or CRT, but, through aseries of events, began to
clearly see the contradictionsof CRT with the historic
Christian worldview.
Monique now is convinced thatCRT is not the best way to
achieve racial unity andactively speaks out against the
(02:25):
use of CRT within the church.
Her mission is to promote avision of racial healing based
on the historic Christian view.
Monique has appeared on showssuch as Relatable with Allie
Beth Stuckley, the LisaChildress podcast and Breakpoint
with John Stonestreet.
(02:46):
Monique has a BA in Sociologyfrom Biola University and she is
working on her MA in Theology.
All right, let's dive into thisconversation.
I'm Omik.
(03:08):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Hi Dawn, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Thank you for coming on to talk about race racial
reconciliation, but before weget into our topic, I would like
to know, or my viewers wouldlike to know- how did you become
(03:34):
a follower of Christ?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yes, I actually did not grow up in a Christian home.
I grew up with a single mom andwe just lived our life.
I was definitely raised to bepro-Black and all that that
entailed, but from a secularpoint of view.
When I was about 15, a friendof mine from school invited me
to youth group and I didn'treally understand much of what
(03:58):
youth group was and just goingand being around so many people
my own age, um, was one.
It was really fun and it reallyopened my eyes to the fact that
church didn't have to look like.
Um.
You know what I thought churchwould look like.
(04:18):
I had gone to church with mygrandmother as a young, young
child, but you know, since thenI hadn't been in church, and so,
in going to church with myfriend a few times, then the
pastor eventually asked ifanyone wanted to have their own
relationship with Jesus.
And there I was and I said yesbecause the way that it was
(04:42):
presented, of God being a fatherand me not having a father and
longing for that, it just to memade sense.
I had no idea what I wasgetting into at the time, what I
was saying yes to, butthankfully, you know, and by
God's grace, over the years hehas, you know, grown me, matured
me, taken me down some very youknow unique paths.
(05:04):
But yes, it all started when Iwas 16, taking me down some very
you know unique paths.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But yes, it all started when I was 16, about 15
and a half 16.
All right, that's great.
It's always helpful that youknow how that person leads you
to somewhere that you would notnormally go, and to have a
friend with you when you go,that's great.
So I know you have a ministrycalled Center for Biblical Unity
that you co-founded with yourministry partner, krista
(05:32):
Bontraker, so could you tell usabout how and what motivated you
to start that ministry?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, the Center for Biblical Unity.
We exist to havebiblically-based,
christ-centered conversations onrace justice and unity, and we
started in February of 2020,right before the lockdowns and
the Ahmaud Arbery case, breonnaTaylor and George Floyd.
(05:59):
Everything seemed to happenthat year and, gosh, I first
felt the Lord put the Center forBiblical Unity on my heart in
October, november of 2019.
I had no idea what CFBU was orwould be.
I just had this name.
I myself was coming away from acritical race theory worldview
(06:23):
and perspective.
I upheld critical race theoryand social justice for the
majority of my life and so,after having a lot of that
paradigm broken down, the Centerfor Biblical Unity and a
historic Christian worldview iswhat was left.
And gosh, we were Krista and Iwere invited to speak at the
(06:46):
Women in Apologetics Conferenceat Biola here in Los Angeles,
and they asked us to speak aboutcritical race theory.
And after our talk, there wereso many people who wanted to
know more about critical racetheory.
What was it?
You know what was happening tothem in their workspaces and all
of that.
Could this also be attributedto critical race theory?
(07:08):
And at the time, krista wasjust like the Lord has given you
.
You know this name, and perhapsthis name is part of a larger
entity where you can helppastors and leaders to
understand the issues that comealong with critical race theory.
And so I completed somepaperwork thinking that maybe a
(07:33):
couple of times a year, I couldhelp a pastor or a leadership
team to understand why acceptingideology like critical race
theory into their churchcommunity could be detrimental.
But the Lord again had otherplans, and so now Krista and I
both are in full-time ministryat the Center for Biblical Unity
(07:55):
, and that's just who we are.
We want to havebiblically-based conversations
on race, justice and unity, andthose three words encompass many
of the social theories we talka lot about queer theory or
child studies, feminist theory.
There are other social theoriesthat encompass the term justice
(08:21):
or fall under things that couldbring disunity, and so how do
we keep our unity as a body ofbelievers?
So that's who we are.
It's what we do all day.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, I've tuned into your family meetings.
Sometimes I can't get them likeon the day of, but I always try
to get the replay afterwardsand they're always so
informative.
You know about the differenttopics that you've always so
informative.
You know about the differenttopics that you've mentioned
about race.
You know birth theory and allthat stuff.
Child studies it's very helpful.
(08:52):
It's increased my learning inthose areas also.
So keep it up.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Thanks so much.
Yeah, we really want to makesure that people are equipped
first with the word of God.
That's our foundation.
But then you also have to knowyour enemy and know what is
coming against especially yourkids, what could be coming
against you in the workforce,and so that's our goal to really
empower people to be able to atleast have some knowledge of
(09:21):
what's happening around them.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, all right.
So let's define some terms hereso we're kind of know what
we're talking about.
So race, like what would be adefinition of race, and then,
well, gosh, go ahead.
And the other flip side of ishow does God look at race?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well, let me start with the biblical position first
.
Biblically, we don't see theconcept of race the way that we
do in our current culture in thescriptures.
In the scriptures we see regionof origin, we see ethnicity.
But to look at race, as we doin America, according to the
(10:01):
five races listed on the, or notthe five senses, the five races
listed on the Census Bureauwebsite, races would be
categories in which differentpeople fall into.
However, scripturally, when welook at ethnicity or region of
(10:22):
origin, people are considered.
At ethnicity or region oforigin, people are considered,
people are identified is whatI'll say by the place that they
come from.
So in America I would beconsidered Black, or people
would say I am African American.
Some people would say AfricanAmerican but I might have a
(10:44):
lineage that goes back to Africa, but I also may not.
So, looking at me, yes, mydarker skin leads me eventually
back to Africa.
But when I look at my parents,I have a father who is from
Port-au-Prince, haiti, and thenI have a mom who is from
Philadelphia, have a mom who isfrom Philadelphia.
(11:11):
Our racial categories don'tnecessarily add up to where
someone is specifically from allthe time.
Another issue with the idea ofrace that many critical
theorists critical racetheorists, especially in social
justice warriors or advocateswould say is that race is a
social construct.
I completely believe that.
I believe that this idea ofrace, of attributing skin color
(11:33):
to someone's identity, that issomething that was made up.
It was a social construct andit was used for people to
benefit off of white skin beingbetter or lighter skin being
better than darker skin.
We don't see that in thescriptures.
In the scriptures, what we seeis that this person came from
this region and when we are toldthat someone comes from a
(11:56):
specific region, that's usuallyattached to the understanding of
how close was this person inrelationship to God or to the
covenant?
How close or how far away wasthis person from having a
relationship with God.
So we see in the book of Ruthwe can look at Ruth.
(12:17):
Ruth was a Moabitess.
She was from the land of Moab.
Moab was outside of thecovenantal relationship with God
.
But we see her mother, naomi,who was a Jew, she was a Hebrew
and so she was closer to thecovenant, she was in the
covenant, she was God's chosenpeople.
(12:38):
Naomi and her husband actuallymoved to Moab from the land.
I want to say gosh, it wasBethlehem.
I could be mistaken.
So we see Naomi and her husbandactually moving out of God's
providential land for his people.
So when we hear of ethnicity orregion of origin within the
(13:02):
scriptures, it lets us know howclose or how far someone is to
the covenant.
Now, when we look at Ruth, ruththen moved into Bethlehem.
She went home with Naomi.
She was still a Moabite but shecame under the laws, traditions
, practices, beliefs of theHebrew people.
(13:23):
And so this I would say this isthe difference in terminology
when we look at race today, thesocial construct, versus the
true and concrete data ordefinition that we can see in
the scriptures, based onsomeone's region of origin.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Right, yeah, that makes sense as far as looking at
it in that context, when welook at the Bible and looking
where people came from and howthey're related to that.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So that makes sense our modern day concept of race
is a social construct.
When we look at, you know,attributing skin color to a
ethnic category, so to speak, orto a group of people.
(14:21):
You know it is, and ithistorically has been for the
benefit of a structure, a classstructure or some kind of
systemic structure, but asChristians we don't participate
according to that.
So, as a Christian, I might beinterested in your region of
origin, I might be interested inyour ethnic background, but I'm
(14:42):
not going to classify youaccording to race necessarily.
I would also even probably gobeyond that and say that in the
New Testament we don't see theconcept of race because, as Paul
says, there's neither Jew norGentile, greek nor Scythian,
slave nor free.
But you are either in Christ oryou are in Adam.
(15:05):
These are the new structuresthat have been set up because of
the work of Jesus.
So when I am, you know, atchurch or in a community with
believers, what I understand isthis person isn't white, black,
hispanic, asian, you knowwhatever, this person is in
Christ, and what does it mean tobe in Christ and wearing Christ
(15:26):
as our new identity?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right, yeah, that does.
I'm glad you made thatdistinction.
As far as you know, the OldTestament and the New Testament,
as far as you know us being inChrist and then not in Christ.
So God doesn't.
God sees color because he madeup all of us, you know colorful,
but he's looking for whetherwe're with him or we're not with
(15:49):
him, as far as you know thatdistinction?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yes, and I'm so glad that you mentioned the idea of
you know skin color and melanin.
You know, we see that we arefearfully and wonderfully made,
that God was intentional in howhe, you know, makes people like
no one has been made by accident.
And yet, when we read in Acts,it says that from one man God
(16:18):
made all the nations.
It was in Adam.
There was somethingprovidentially within Adam that
allowed for our skin color, ourpigmentation, melanation,
melanation I don't even know ifthat's a word but for our
melanin to adapt to the regionin which people migrated.
And so to to think about skincolor, it's really helpful to
(16:41):
think of it as an issue of God'sprovidence.
That God did not make you knowseven different people in the
beginning or different ethnicgroups in the beginning.
No, it was from one man.
God made Adam and he made Eve,and within the DNA structure of
Adam and Eve laid thepossibility and the potential
(17:02):
for different skin colors aspeople migrated.
It's definitely a providentialcomponent to us.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, and that, just you know, takes us back to the.
You know the character andattributes of God.
It's providence, he's thecreator of everything.
So, just you know, bringing itall back to who God is and what
his purpose is for us yes, allright, so tell us kind of shift.
We talked about race.
Yes, all right, so tell us kindof shift.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
We talked about race.
There's a thing that people arewanting racial reconciliation,
and should we be aiming forracial reconciliation?
Well, first, what is racialreconciliation?
And then, is that, what shouldwe be aiming for?
As a people, or believers, Iused to uphold the idea of
racial reconciliation and as Ihave seen it, you know, play out
from my time of being a racialreconciliation advocate to now
stepping away from the racialreconciliation mindset.
Racial reconciliation isactually a time or a work that
(18:14):
is done to get you know all thepeople, all the different
ethnicities, into the room, tobe able to have conversation,
usually about grievance, usuallyabout do you understand the
history, do you understand?
You know why we are upset andoffended?
And then there is somecomponent that white people need
to do to be able to say youknow why we are upset and
(18:36):
offended.
And then there is somecomponent that white people need
to do to be able to say youknow, please forgive me please
best description of reckon ofracial reconciliation.
That is like playing out inreal time.
(18:58):
It's a, it's a process of a lotof works.
Now, when we go to secondCorinthians five, we can really
see what reconciliation is.
And I jumped to 2 Corinthians 5, because that's where many
people talk about this idea ofreconciliation, racial
(19:19):
reconciliation.
When Paul says you've beengiven the ministry of
reconciliation, he says we'vebeen given the ministry of
reconciliation and we, in ourcurrent 2022 context, put racial
in front of it.
But the context of scripture inwhich Paul is writing is not
about race or ethnicity.
The context in which Paul iswriting, when you read the
(19:40):
entire chapter, is aboutreconciling sinful hearts to a
holy God.
That is the reconciliation, theministry of reconciliation that
we've been given, to tellpeople that there has been a way
made back to God.
Now here's the thing is that,as we evangelize, this is based
off of what is it?
(20:00):
Matthew 28, going into all theworld as we evangelize, telling
people hey, look, a way has beenmade back to God, you can have
your sinful heart reconciled toGod.
What does John 1 then tell us?
John 1, 12 says that those whoput their faith in Jesus, those
who believed on his name, hegave the right to become
(20:21):
children of God.
When we then move to Ephesians 1and 2, we can see that we are
heirs with Jesus, that it was tohis good pleasure to adopt us
into his family, that thedividing wall of hostility has
been broken down.
We see language that lets usknow that, as believers, we are
reconciled together.
We have the same father, wehave been reconciled into the
(20:45):
same family.
Does that mean that, you know?
So now we never talk about race.
Now we never talk aboutoffenses.
Now we never talk about sin.
No, racism isn't our biggestproblem though, and so, as we
are reconciled into the familyof God, I understand that I am
(21:05):
no longer separated from someonebecause of an artificial
distinction like race.
Paul says it, we see it.
We see it in Colossians when wecome into the family of God, we
are brothers and sisters.
So I do personally believe thatracial reconciliation for the
(21:25):
believer is the wrong goal.
Racial reconciliation happenswhen people come into Christ.
It happens authentically.
The question is well, what isthe goal for the believer?
To me, the goal for thebeliever would be to maintain
the unity that has been given tous.
That's Ephesians 4.
(21:45):
Jesus prays for us in John 17that we would be one.
In Ephesians four, paul tellsus to maintain the unity that
we've been given.
We see in John that we've beengiven the power of the Holy
Spirit John 17, and that is theunifying force.
That is what brings us together.
(22:06):
And now, how do we maintain it?
Well, in Ephesians 4, paul laysout, especially in the second
half of Ephesians 4, paul laysout all the ways in which you
keep the unity.
The idea is never seen in theNew Testament that one of the
ways we keep the unity is by,you know, one group doing work
(22:29):
that another group doesn't haveto do so.
With racial reconciliation,many white people need to
acknowledge their complicity inracism or repent for their
racism.
And you know, do all of thesesteps, read all these books, you
know.
And black people, we come tothe table and you know, I have a
different set of work.
That isn't how the scriptureswork, that isn't how you know,
(22:53):
we don't, we don't see a modelfor that.
So racial reconciliation, again, just I think, is completely
the wrong goal for Christians.
I believe that we arereconciled.
We see that in the scriptures.
Now how do we pursue the unity?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Right, and now that's what you're talking about
biblical unity as far as versusreconciliation yes, yeah, and
thank you for that distinction.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Biblical unity how do we keep our biblical unity, our
unity where Christ is thefoundation, where the word of
God is our foundation, asopposed to the culture's idea of
unity that is changing,shifting.
We can be unified on this today, but then tomorrow that might
(23:39):
change.
We live and we believe on aword that is unchanging and we
serve a God who is unchanging.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I think it's helpful.
You know when we're looking, ifwe look at other people around
us and where we have to pleasepeople.
You know we have to do certaingroups have to do this work.
We're never satisfied.
You know, as human beings, wealways want more of people to do
more for us, or oh, you didn'tdo enough.
You know you people to do morefor us, or oh, you didn't do
(24:10):
enough.
You know you need to.
You need to do more work andthat leads to like a spiral
workspace.
You know, you never know howmuch is enough to get to that
point where people will say, yes, that's enough.
It's just an endless cycle.
So I think it's better.
You know, when you're lookingat biblical unity, you have that
framework in the Bible.
(24:31):
God tells us to it, so youdon't have to wonder like, is it
enough?
You know exactly what you needto do.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yes, very well said.
What you're saying actuallymakes me think of James Cone.
He is the originator or fatherof Black liberation theology,
and one of the things that heputs forward is this idea that,
in order for us to be unified,white people need to do all of
this work, and then Black peopleactually need to approve of the
(25:00):
work.
And so, let's say, we're in achurch community and it's white
and Black.
Well, all of the Black peopleneed to approve of the white
people, and if all of the Blackpeople in the community don't
(25:20):
approve of all of the whitepeople, then they're not
approved of.
But we don't see Godparticipating with us like that.
That isn't how the Lordparticipates with us.
Where you have to do all ofthese things before I will, you
(25:41):
know, approve of you, and thenyou know, if you don't do all of
these things, then you know allof these, all of these man-made
things that are continuouslyshifting.
I do believe that you have toworship the correct God,
correctly, but you know hedoesn't.
He doesn't set up all of theseum movable goalposts for us, and
(26:01):
and then you know, see how farwe can jump and how many hoops
we're willing to go through, andyou know all of these things,
and then and then maybe we canbe approved by him yeah, I read
that book combs.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I forget the name of it.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
There's a hard black liberation theology.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
That one yeah, I did read that one, and that was.
That was hard to me.
Even for even for me as a blackperson, that was very hard to
believe.
Yes, there's so many things youhave to do to to be right I'm
not sure if I'm saying it to beright, but you know, just to be
(26:41):
accepted by a particular race ofpeople, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, that's basically it.
Like he puts forward an ideathat, in order for a certain
group of people to be consideredright or good, then you know,
these are the things that mustbe done.
But what do I have to do to beconsidered right or good?
Am I just right or good becauseI'm Black?
(27:08):
That you know.
That just lets me off, like inone of his books, and I don't
think it's Black LiberationTheology, I think it's, oh,
black Power.
He has one called Black Theologyand Black Power, something
similar.
I'm probably messing up thename, but he talks about the
(27:28):
fact that, um, you know, whitepeople can never tell black
people about their sin.
And if a white person sees thatI'm in sin and wants to come
and tell me that, hey, you mightwant to watch out.
You're in sin.
Your soul is, you know,potentially on the road to hell.
(27:48):
Why would I care what color youare?
What does it matter?
We never see any stipulation inscripture that says you know,
gentiles, you can never tell theJews about their sin, right,
yeah, scythians you can nevertell the jews about their sin
right, yeah, scythians, you cannever tell the greeks about
their sin.
Those, those distinctions aren'tcreated in scripture.
(28:09):
That's a form of partiality.
Right, we see that if you seeyour brother sinning, tell him.
Didn't say if you see yourwhite brother sinning, or if you
see your hispanic brothersinning, black person, go tell
him right, yeah, and that's whatracism is basically.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
You know, partiality according to you know biblical
standards, yeah, reality.
So we see that in mr jamesright yeah, james too yeah, oh
yeah, all right.
So let's talk about how to kindof like have conversations with
people who have, you know,ideologies as far as critical
(28:50):
race theory, wokeness, you know,white fragility, and before we
get into that first, and kind oflike give a broad overview of
what is critical race theory.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yes, I'm actually going to read a definition from
critical race theory andintroduction um by Richard
Delgado and Jane Stefancich.
It's a um uh like entry-levelcollege book for me to read too.
Right, um, but it it's reallygood because it's very short.
(29:24):
Um, it's definitely a lay levelbook, not an academic book.
Um and Jean Stefancich and um,yeah, richard Delgado and Jean
Stefancich are husband and wifeand they have been in the
critical race theory space sincethe very beginning.
They were actually at theinitial meeting, the first
(29:45):
meeting where critical racetheory actually became a theory,
where the phrase or the namewas coined by Kimberly Crenshaw
and Mari Matsuda.
They were part of the originalgroup in like 1989, 87 or 89.
But it says the critical racetheory movement is a collection
(30:07):
of activists and scholarsengaged in studying and
transforming the relationshipamong race, racism and power.
So what is critical race theory?
Critical race theory is amovement and it is meant.
This movement is meant totransform the relationship
between race, racism and power.
Critical theory itself, but justlooking at critical race theory
(30:31):
is extremely concerned aboutpower dynamics.
Who holds the power?
And looking at the structuresof power, how do we either A
take power from the dominantgroup those with the power to be
able to disperse it to thelarger crowd, or how do we have
(30:56):
a conversation of overturningthe oppressors?
How do the oppressed overturnthe oppressors?
But this is all in relation torace.
So how do we look at powerdynamics based on race?
How do we eradicate a lot ofthe power structures based on
race?
(31:16):
And so this is where you can seesome of the Marxist ideology,
just not applied directly toeconomics, but looking at it
from the standpoint of race.
So at one point in history wewere looking at the proletariat
and the bourgeoisie, and howcome the working class never
overthrew, when they had theopportunity, the ruling class?
(31:40):
They had the opportunity, theruling class, and many people
would say that there was a wayof thinking that had been
ingrained in the working classthat allowed them to continue to
participate with theiroppressors in a way that was not
beneficial to them.
I believe many critical racetheorists would say the same
(32:00):
that the oppressed classesparticipate in ways or norms
that are just ingrained with uswithin society without
overturning the society itself.
Partially because we probablyignorantly see this as something
(32:20):
that is to our benefit to adegree.
But critical race theory iscommitted to the overturning,
the transforming of race, racismand power.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
So how do you, how will we have like respectful
conversations to with people whoyou know have this mindset and
we want to kind of steer themtoward you know what the Bible
says, but without you know,beating the Bible over their
heads?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, I would definitely say that it takes a
lot of patience.
I know my ministry partner,krista, would say she had to
have a lot of patience with me.
You know, because I held towhat I held and I was firmly,
you know, very planted in what Ibelieved.
So it takes a lot of patience.
It also takes a lot ofquestions.
(33:10):
Ask questions and you know whatI would even say before any of
that, have a biblical worldview.
Know what you believe.
Know what the Bible says, notjust what you think, not just
what you hope, not just whatyou've heard.
Know what the Bible says foryourself, because a critical
(33:31):
race theorist can also, you know, want to uphold Christianity or
say they uphold Christianityand, you know, have a strong
belief in Jesus as well.
There's just something in theworldview that's a little
different.
So for me, opposing criticalrace theory, I automatically saw
all white people as beingoppressive, being the oppressor,
(33:54):
but we don't see that inscripture.
We see individual heartattitudes that can lead someone
to participate in impartiality.
So know the word of God foryourself, do not just lean on
somebody else's understanding ofthe word.
Then I would say, understandsome of the framework of the
(34:15):
theory that you are talkingabout.
So, if it's critical racetheory, understand what are some
of the arguments of criticalrace theorists.
Not every argument of acritical race theorist needs to
be tossed out.
Some of those things need to belooked into and you can have
conversations about that.
Understand the place whereChristianity and critical race
theory overlap.
(34:36):
So I started out earlier bysaying you know, I also believe
that race is a social construct.
That's a point of conversationwhere you can say yes, I also
agree with this.
But then you can ask a questionbased on another tenet of
critical race theory that youmay not agree with, and you can,
you know, ask questions andhave conversation from there.
(34:57):
I would say be in it for thelong haul.
I would say, be in it for thelong haul.
You don't have to go into aconversation with someone and
just at that moment say thisperson is going to hear me today
and they're just going tochange their mind.
That probably isn't going tohappen.
What is more likely to happenis that if you're patient and
gracious in your conversation,then you can win the next
(35:19):
conversation.
It doesn't always have to beabout winning this big war.
You know we read in um in firstPeter, I want to say it may be
first, peter three, where weshould be able to give an answer
with gentleness and respect forthe hope that we have.
Can you do that?
That doesn't mean you have tobe a punk and you have to like
just roll over and let peopleyou know talk to you any kind of
(35:39):
way or say whatever they'regoing to say, and it also
doesn't mean that you have towater down the word of God.
The word of God is the word ofGod and the word of God will
stand on its own.
The Lord will use you to beable to communicate his word to
someone, and we do that withgentleness and respect.
And I can also say that ingentleness and respect in my
(36:01):
answer, I will speak boldly,with confidence and with courage
, and so we don't need toexchange confidence and courage
for gentleness and respect.
The two can live together.
But, yes, know the word of God.
(36:24):
God understand what the socialtheory you're going to be
talking about, whether it'squeer theory, feminist theory,
critical race theory, whatever.
Understand a little bit of that.
You don't have to be an expertin it, but understand a little
bit of it.
Where are the places wherethere's overlap?
Where are the starkdiscrepancies between
Christianity and the socialtheory that you're talking about
?
And then, be gracious, askquestions, be willing to have
(36:50):
the next conversation.
Don't feel like you have to goin and answer all of their
questions about the Bible, orthat you have to have a response
for everything that they bringup.
You can take a time out and say, hey, look, how about we follow
up with this question next week?
Give yourself some time tothink or to do more research,
(37:10):
and then pray.
Make sure that you are praying,because, at the end of the day,
like I said, the word of Godwill stand on its own.
You are not anybody's savior.
You don't have a heaven or ahell to put anybody in.
What you can do, though, isrespectfully and responsibly
share the word of God, the truthof the word of God, but you
have to know it in order to beable to do that, so I hope
that's helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, I think it's.
I want to liken it to you know,witnessing to an atheist.
You know if they're staunch intheir belief, you know it's
going to take time.
You got to know the word, yougot to be patient, you know you
got to be gracious, like yousaid, and you know it just.
It's just all those factorsinvolving because you, you're
(37:51):
not saving that person.
You know god has to move theirheart.
So yeah, similar to you knowissues on race, god has to be
the one you know, to ultimatelymove their heart.
But we're just the vessel orthe person that he has is here
to maybe share that word withthem, to get them to think.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yes, go think, yes, yes.
If you do nothing more than puta pebble in someone's shoe,
you've done a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right, yeah, and it just may be that next person,
you know, that will lead them tothe place that they need to be.
Yes, that was very helpful.
Yes, patience, yes, that's thekey.
All patience, yes, all right,so we're kind of wrapping up
here.
So what would be a Bible studytip that you could offer my
(38:42):
audience?
As far as you know, studyingthe Bible, understanding it
better.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Um, in regards to race and ethnicity, or in
regards to just general?
Okay, so just in general, Iwould say never read a Bible
verse by itself.
This is something that Krista,my ministry partner, shared with
me at the very beginning,because I could take Micah 6.8
and run with it, and now I'madvocating for justice issues
(39:11):
across the board, things thatare actually sinful but in our
current culture are consideredjustice issues.
An example of that would beMicah 6.8, where we are
encouraged to do justice.
Well, in our current culture,reproductive justice is a thing.
(39:33):
Well, reproductive justice isalso another euphemism for
abortion.
So, in the call to do justice,abortion.
So in the call to do justice, Icould potentially be advocating
for abortion.
Um, this is why you never readjust one bible verse.
Read the word of god in context.
In order to understand micahsix, you actually need to
understand what's happening inmichael one, and so, looking at
(39:57):
the book of micah in context,also understanding the time
frame that Micah was set in, whowere the contemporaries that
wrote alongside Micah?
We need to understand the wordof God, not just a passage in
the word of God.
So I think that would be myprimary encouragement to people
(40:20):
is to read chunks of scripture,not just, you know, these two
verses that can confirm what I'mlooking for.
There's a lot in the Bible thatyou might have to say wait a
minute, hold on.
Let me read this again, andespecially because the word of
God was not written to us.
It was written to a specificpeople during a specific time,
(40:44):
and so we get to in our 2022context.
I get to now look back intothis moment in time and see what
God was saying.
Now, the word of God does notchange, but I need to understand
how the word of God wasunderstood during that time, not
how do I understand it in lightof my 2022 mindset that has
(41:07):
been impacted by things likecritical theory, post-modernism,
feminist theory and all ofthose things.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, and it's Micah.
You said Micah 6?
.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Micah 6.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Is that the do justice?
Love, mercy and humbly.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Walk humbly with your God.
Yeah that's that one, and we seeit everywhere.
We see, you know, secularpeople putting that verse up and
encouraging Christians.
Isn't it your word that saysyou know you should do justice
and walk humbly with your God?
Well, how are you not doingjustice for the woman who wants
(41:42):
to have an abortion?
Well, hold on, do youunderstand what the biblical
term for justice actually is?
So we need to look at eventhese words.
That culture is throwing back atthe church and saying this is
your word, not ours.
Well, true, I can acknowledgethat Justice is the foundation
(42:05):
of the Lord's throne.
We see justice in his character.
So, yes, but let me define itfor you in the right context.
I am not going to acceptjustice from the culture and
then do that.
What I'm going to do is I'mgoing to look to my heavenly
father, who is the author andcreator of all things.
(42:26):
I'm going to look at what doeshe have to say about justice?
How is it defined according tohis principles?
And I'm going to do that, andthat, most often, is going to be
antithetical to the culture.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah, that's the only way you can be discerning, you
know, by reading the whole wordand not just picking verses out
here and there.
To you know, suit what we wantto what we want to say.
Try to justify it.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yes, but we are good cherry pickers.
I'm a good cherry picker.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yes, I think we all are.
I've had that problem too.
I had to learn to.
What is this verse reallysaying?
What did it say beforehand?
What is this prophet trying tosay?
Who are they talking to?
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yes, for so many years I was holding to Micah 6,
8, but I had never read Micah 6,1.
You know just six verses, sevenverses, you know, know up the
chapter and I had never read it.
And I had definitely never readmichael one one.
So you know it.
When you, when you look at averse in the context of the
(43:35):
larger book, it the verse thatyou're looking at may not
actually be saying what youthink it's saying right, yeah, a
whole another different thingthat you never intended to.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yes, yes, yeah, all right.
Well, monique, this was a veryhelpful and interesting
conversation and thank you forbeing on the show thanks for
having me, I appreciate it allright.
So I hope that conversation washelpful.
As we talked about race, racialreconciliation and biblical
(44:10):
unity, I hope you will go andcheck out the website Center for
Biblical Unity.
I will put those links in theshow notes.
And then also, monique and herministry partner, krista
Bontrager, have a new book outat this moment.
It is called Walking in UnityBiblical Answers to Questions on
(44:31):
Race and Racism.
It is a good read so I highlyrecommend it for you.
Like I said, those links totheir ministry will be in the
show notes, so go check it outand remember until next time.
God is always good and he'salways faithful.
Thank you for listening to thepodcast.
(44:51):
Do me a favor by following thepodcast and leaving a review to
help spread the word.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the Podcast, where we
learn how to live for Christ inour daily lives.
I'm Dwan, your host, and Iwould like to invite you on a
journey with me to explore andlearn how to be a faithful
follower of Christ.
Hey everyone, welcome toFaithfully Living, the podcast,
(00:30):
where we strive to encourage youto live for Christ faithfully.
We're offering guidance on howto study the Bible, how to
understand the Bible better andhow to remain faithful to
historic Christianity in acontemporary society.
Biblical unity and racialreconciliation these are two
powerful ideas.
These ideas are they the same?
What does the Bible speak aboutunity in a way that transcends
(00:54):
culture, racial lines, and whatdoes it look like to pursue
reconciliation according to thepages of the scriptures?
I'm excited to bring you thisreplay of a conversation that I
had with Monique Dusson, founderof a ministry called Center for
Biblical Unity.
She's going to tackle these twoideas of biblical unity versus
(01:18):
racial reconciliation.
But before we get started, letme just give you a bio on
Monique.
Like I said, she is theco-founder of a ministry called
Center for Biblical Unity.
She co-founded it with herministry partner, krista
Bontrager.
Their sisterhood in the Lord isthe cornerstone of this
(01:41):
ministry.
Monique has a background insocial services and children's
ministry.
She has worked with a diversearray of underserved communities
.
She has worked as a missionaryin South Africa for over four
years, serving children andteachers impacted by drugs,
violence and trauma.
(02:01):
She spent two decadesadvocating for critical race
theory, or CRT, but, through aseries of events, began to
clearly see the contradictionsof CRT with the historic
Christian worldview.
Monique now is convinced thatCRT is not the best way to
achieve racial unity andactively speaks out against the
(02:25):
use of CRT within the church.
Her mission is to promote avision of racial healing based
on the historic Christian view.
Monique has appeared on showssuch as Relatable with Allie
Beth Stuckley, the LisaChildress podcast and Breakpoint
with John Stonestreet.
(02:46):
Monique has a BA in Sociologyfrom Biola University and she is
working on her MA in Theology.
All right, let's dive into thisconversation.
I'm Omik.
(03:08):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Hi Dawn, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Thank you for coming on to talk about race racial
reconciliation, but before weget into our topic, I would like
to know, or my viewers wouldlike to know- how did you become
(03:34):
a follower of Christ?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yes, I actually did not grow up in a Christian home.
I grew up with a single mom andwe just lived our life.
I was definitely raised to bepro-Black and all that that
entailed, but from a secularpoint of view.
When I was about 15, a friendof mine from school invited me
to youth group and I didn'treally understand much of what
(03:58):
youth group was and just goingand being around so many people
my own age, um, was one.
It was really fun and it reallyopened my eyes to the fact that
church didn't have to look like.
Um.
You know what I thought churchwould look like.
(04:18):
I had gone to church with mygrandmother as a young, young
child, but you know, since thenI hadn't been in church, and so,
in going to church with myfriend a few times, then the
pastor eventually asked ifanyone wanted to have their own
relationship with Jesus.
And there I was and I said yesbecause the way that it was
(04:42):
presented, of God being a fatherand me not having a father and
longing for that, it just to memade sense.
I had no idea what I wasgetting into at the time, what I
was saying yes to, butthankfully, you know, and by
God's grace, over the years hehas, you know, grown me, matured
me, taken me down some very youknow unique paths.
(05:04):
But yes, it all started when Iwas 16, taking me down some very
you know unique paths.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But yes, it all started when I was 16, about 15
and a half 16.
All right, that's great.
It's always helpful that youknow how that person leads you
to somewhere that you would notnormally go, and to have a
friend with you when you go,that's great.
So I know you have a ministrycalled Center for Biblical Unity
that you co-founded with yourministry partner, krista
(05:32):
Bontraker, so could you tell usabout how and what motivated you
to start that ministry?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, the Center for Biblical Unity.
We exist to havebiblically-based,
christ-centered conversations onrace justice and unity, and we
started in February of 2020,right before the lockdowns and
the Ahmaud Arbery case, breonnaTaylor and George Floyd.
(05:59):
Everything seemed to happenthat year and, gosh, I first
felt the Lord put the Center forBiblical Unity on my heart in
October, november of 2019.
I had no idea what CFBU was orwould be.
I just had this name.
I myself was coming away from acritical race theory worldview
(06:23):
and perspective.
I upheld critical race theoryand social justice for the
majority of my life and so,after having a lot of that
paradigm broken down, the Centerfor Biblical Unity and a
historic Christian worldview iswhat was left.
And gosh, we were Krista and Iwere invited to speak at the
(06:46):
Women in Apologetics Conferenceat Biola here in Los Angeles,
and they asked us to speak aboutcritical race theory.
And after our talk, there wereso many people who wanted to
know more about critical racetheory.
What was it?
You know what was happening tothem in their workspaces and all
of that.
Could this also be attributedto critical race theory?
(07:08):
And at the time, krista wasjust like the Lord has given you
.
You know this name, and perhapsthis name is part of a larger
entity where you can helppastors and leaders to
understand the issues that comealong with critical race theory.
And so I completed somepaperwork thinking that maybe a
(07:33):
couple of times a year, I couldhelp a pastor or a leadership
team to understand why acceptingideology like critical race
theory into their churchcommunity could be detrimental.
But the Lord again had otherplans, and so now Krista and I
both are in full-time ministryat the Center for Biblical Unity
(07:55):
, and that's just who we are.
We want to havebiblically-based conversations
on race, justice and unity, andthose three words encompass many
of the social theories we talka lot about queer theory or
child studies, feminist theory.
There are other social theoriesthat encompass the term justice
(08:21):
or fall under things that couldbring disunity, and so how do
we keep our unity as a body ofbelievers?
So that's who we are.
It's what we do all day.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, I've tuned into your family meetings.
Sometimes I can't get them likeon the day of, but I always try
to get the replay afterwardsand they're always so
informative.
You know about the differenttopics that you've always so
informative.
You know about the differenttopics that you've mentioned
about race.
You know birth theory and allthat stuff.
Child studies it's very helpful.
(08:52):
It's increased my learning inthose areas also.
So keep it up.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Thanks so much.
Yeah, we really want to makesure that people are equipped
first with the word of God.
That's our foundation.
But then you also have to knowyour enemy and know what is
coming against especially yourkids, what could be coming
against you in the workforce,and so that's our goal to really
empower people to be able to atleast have some knowledge of
(09:21):
what's happening around them.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, all right.
So let's define some terms hereso we're kind of know what
we're talking about.
So race, like what would be adefinition of race, and then,
well, gosh, go ahead.
And the other flip side of ishow does God look at race?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well, let me start with the biblical position first
.
Biblically, we don't see theconcept of race the way that we
do in our current culture in thescriptures.
In the scriptures we see regionof origin, we see ethnicity.
But to look at race, as we doin America, according to the
(10:01):
five races listed on the, or notthe five senses, the five races
listed on the Census Bureauwebsite, races would be
categories in which differentpeople fall into.
However, scripturally, when welook at ethnicity or region of
(10:22):
origin, people are considered.
At ethnicity or region oforigin, people are considered,
people are identified is whatI'll say by the place that they
come from.
So in America I would beconsidered Black, or people
would say I am African American.
Some people would say AfricanAmerican but I might have a
(10:44):
lineage that goes back to Africa, but I also may not.
So, looking at me, yes, mydarker skin leads me eventually
back to Africa.
But when I look at my parents,I have a father who is from
Port-au-Prince, haiti, and thenI have a mom who is from
Philadelphia, have a mom who isfrom Philadelphia.
(11:11):
Our racial categories don'tnecessarily add up to where
someone is specifically from allthe time.
Another issue with the idea ofrace that many critical
theorists critical racetheorists, especially in social
justice warriors or advocateswould say is that race is a
social construct.
I completely believe that.
I believe that this idea ofrace, of attributing skin color
(11:33):
to someone's identity, that issomething that was made up.
It was a social construct andit was used for people to
benefit off of white skin beingbetter or lighter skin being
better than darker skin.
We don't see that in thescriptures.
In the scriptures, what we seeis that this person came from
this region and when we are toldthat someone comes from a
(11:56):
specific region, that's usuallyattached to the understanding of
how close was this person inrelationship to God or to the
covenant?
How close or how far away wasthis person from having a
relationship with God.
So we see in the book of Ruthwe can look at Ruth.
(12:17):
Ruth was a Moabitess.
She was from the land of Moab.
Moab was outside of thecovenantal relationship with God
.
But we see her mother, naomi,who was a Jew, she was a Hebrew
and so she was closer to thecovenant, she was in the
covenant, she was God's chosenpeople.
(12:38):
Naomi and her husband actuallymoved to Moab from the land.
I want to say gosh, it wasBethlehem.
I could be mistaken.
So we see Naomi and her husbandactually moving out of God's
providential land for his people.
So when we hear of ethnicity orregion of origin within the
(13:02):
scriptures, it lets us know howclose or how far someone is to
the covenant.
Now, when we look at Ruth, ruththen moved into Bethlehem.
She went home with Naomi.
She was still a Moabite but shecame under the laws, traditions
, practices, beliefs of theHebrew people.
(13:23):
And so this I would say this isthe difference in terminology
when we look at race today, thesocial construct, versus the
true and concrete data ordefinition that we can see in
the scriptures, based onsomeone's region of origin.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Right, yeah, that makes sense as far as looking at
it in that context, when welook at the Bible and looking
where people came from and howthey're related to that.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So that makes sense our modern day concept of race
is a social construct.
When we look at, you know,attributing skin color to a
ethnic category, so to speak, orto a group of people.
(14:21):
You know it is, and ithistorically has been for the
benefit of a structure, a classstructure or some kind of
systemic structure, but asChristians we don't participate
according to that.
So, as a Christian, I might beinterested in your region of
origin, I might be interested inyour ethnic background, but I'm
(14:42):
not going to classify youaccording to race necessarily.
I would also even probably gobeyond that and say that in the
New Testament we don't see theconcept of race because, as Paul
says, there's neither Jew norGentile, greek nor Scythian,
slave nor free.
But you are either in Christ oryou are in Adam.
(15:05):
These are the new structuresthat have been set up because of
the work of Jesus.
So when I am, you know, atchurch or in a community with
believers, what I understand isthis person isn't white, black,
hispanic, asian, you knowwhatever, this person is in
Christ, and what does it mean tobe in Christ and wearing Christ
(15:26):
as our new identity?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right, yeah, that does.
I'm glad you made thatdistinction.
As far as you know, the OldTestament and the New Testament,
as far as you know us being inChrist and then not in Christ.
So God doesn't.
God sees color because he madeup all of us, you know colorful,
but he's looking for whetherwe're with him or we're not with
(15:49):
him, as far as you know thatdistinction?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yes, and I'm so glad that you mentioned the idea of
you know skin color and melanin.
You know, we see that we arefearfully and wonderfully made,
that God was intentional in howhe, you know, makes people like
no one has been made by accident.
And yet, when we read in Acts,it says that from one man God
(16:18):
made all the nations.
It was in Adam.
There was somethingprovidentially within Adam that
allowed for our skin color, ourpigmentation, melanation,
melanation I don't even know ifthat's a word but for our
melanin to adapt to the regionin which people migrated.
And so to to think about skincolor, it's really helpful to
(16:41):
think of it as an issue of God'sprovidence.
That God did not make you knowseven different people in the
beginning or different ethnicgroups in the beginning.
No, it was from one man.
God made Adam and he made Eve,and within the DNA structure of
Adam and Eve laid thepossibility and the potential
(17:02):
for different skin colors aspeople migrated.
It's definitely a providentialcomponent to us.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, and that, just you know, takes us back to the.
You know the character andattributes of God.
It's providence, he's thecreator of everything.
So, just you know, bringing itall back to who God is and what
his purpose is for us yes, allright, so tell us kind of shift.
We talked about race.
Yes, all right, so tell us kindof shift.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
We talked about race.
There's a thing that people arewanting racial reconciliation,
and should we be aiming forracial reconciliation?
Well, first, what is racialreconciliation?
And then, is that, what shouldwe be aiming for?
As a people, or believers, Iused to uphold the idea of
racial reconciliation and as Ihave seen it, you know, play out
from my time of being a racialreconciliation advocate to now
stepping away from the racialreconciliation mindset.
Racial reconciliation isactually a time or a work that
(18:14):
is done to get you know all thepeople, all the different
ethnicities, into the room, tobe able to have conversation,
usually about grievance, usuallyabout do you understand the
history, do you understand?
You know why we are upset andoffended?
And then there is somecomponent that white people need
to do to be able to say youknow why we are upset and
(18:36):
offended.
And then there is somecomponent that white people need
to do to be able to say youknow, please forgive me please
best description of reckon ofracial reconciliation.
That is like playing out inreal time.
(18:58):
It's a, it's a process of a lotof works.
Now, when we go to secondCorinthians five, we can really
see what reconciliation is.
And I jumped to 2 Corinthians 5, because that's where many
people talk about this idea ofreconciliation, racial
(19:19):
reconciliation.
When Paul says you've beengiven the ministry of
reconciliation, he says we'vebeen given the ministry of
reconciliation and we, in ourcurrent 2022 context, put racial
in front of it.
But the context of scripture inwhich Paul is writing is not
about race or ethnicity.
The context in which Paul iswriting, when you read the
(19:40):
entire chapter, is aboutreconciling sinful hearts to a
holy God.
That is the reconciliation, theministry of reconciliation that
we've been given, to tellpeople that there has been a way
made back to God.
Now here's the thing is that,as we evangelize, this is based
off of what is it?
(20:00):
Matthew 28, going into all theworld as we evangelize, telling
people hey, look, a way has beenmade back to God, you can have
your sinful heart reconciled toGod.
What does John 1 then tell us?
John 1, 12 says that those whoput their faith in Jesus, those
who believed on his name, hegave the right to become
(20:21):
children of God.
When we then move to Ephesians 1and 2, we can see that we are
heirs with Jesus, that it was tohis good pleasure to adopt us
into his family, that thedividing wall of hostility has
been broken down.
We see language that lets usknow that, as believers, we are
reconciled together.
We have the same father, wehave been reconciled into the
(20:45):
same family.
Does that mean that, you know?
So now we never talk about race.
Now we never talk aboutoffenses.
Now we never talk about sin.
No, racism isn't our biggestproblem though, and so, as we
are reconciled into the familyof God, I understand that I am
(21:05):
no longer separated from someonebecause of an artificial
distinction like race.
Paul says it, we see it.
We see it in Colossians when wecome into the family of God, we
are brothers and sisters.
So I do personally believe thatracial reconciliation for the
(21:25):
believer is the wrong goal.
Racial reconciliation happenswhen people come into Christ.
It happens authentically.
The question is well, what isthe goal for the believer?
To me, the goal for thebeliever would be to maintain
the unity that has been given tous.
That's Ephesians 4.
(21:45):
Jesus prays for us in John 17that we would be one.
In Ephesians four, paul tellsus to maintain the unity that
we've been given.
We see in John that we've beengiven the power of the Holy
Spirit John 17, and that is theunifying force.
That is what brings us together.
(22:06):
And now, how do we maintain it?
Well, in Ephesians 4, paul laysout, especially in the second
half of Ephesians 4, paul laysout all the ways in which you
keep the unity.
The idea is never seen in theNew Testament that one of the
ways we keep the unity is by,you know, one group doing work
(22:29):
that another group doesn't haveto do so.
With racial reconciliation,many white people need to
acknowledge their complicity inracism or repent for their
racism.
And you know, do all of thesesteps, read all these books, you
know.
And black people, we come tothe table and you know, I have a
different set of work.
That isn't how the scriptureswork, that isn't how you know,
(22:53):
we don't, we don't see a modelfor that.
So racial reconciliation, again, just I think, is completely
the wrong goal for Christians.
I believe that we arereconciled.
We see that in the scriptures.
Now how do we pursue the unity?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Right, and now that's what you're talking about
biblical unity as far as versusreconciliation yes, yeah, and
thank you for that distinction.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Biblical unity how do we keep our biblical unity, our
unity where Christ is thefoundation, where the word of
God is our foundation, asopposed to the culture's idea of
unity that is changing,shifting.
We can be unified on this today, but then tomorrow that might
(23:39):
change.
We live and we believe on aword that is unchanging and we
serve a God who is unchanging.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I think it's helpful.
You know when we're looking, ifwe look at other people around
us and where we have to pleasepeople.
You know we have to do certaingroups have to do this work.
We're never satisfied.
You know, as human beings, wealways want more of people to do
more for us, or oh, you didn'tdo enough.
You know you people to do morefor us, or oh, you didn't do
(24:10):
enough.
You know you need to.
You need to do more work andthat leads to like a spiral
workspace.
You know, you never know howmuch is enough to get to that
point where people will say, yes, that's enough.
It's just an endless cycle.
So I think it's better.
You know, when you're lookingat biblical unity, you have that
framework in the Bible.
(24:31):
God tells us to it, so youdon't have to wonder like, is it
enough?
You know exactly what you needto do.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yes, very well said.
What you're saying actuallymakes me think of James Cone.
He is the originator or fatherof Black liberation theology,
and one of the things that heputs forward is this idea that,
in order for us to be unified,white people need to do all of
this work, and then Black peopleactually need to approve of the
(25:00):
work.
And so, let's say, we're in achurch community and it's white
and Black.
Well, all of the Black peopleneed to approve of the white
people, and if all of the Blackpeople in the community don't
(25:20):
approve of all of the whitepeople, then they're not
approved of.
But we don't see Godparticipating with us like that.
That isn't how the Lordparticipates with us.
Where you have to do all ofthese things before I will, you
(25:41):
know, approve of you, and thenyou know, if you don't do all of
these things, then you know allof these, all of these man-made
things that are continuouslyshifting.
I do believe that you have toworship the correct God,
correctly, but you know hedoesn't.
He doesn't set up all of theseum movable goalposts for us, and
(26:01):
and then you know, see how farwe can jump and how many hoops
we're willing to go through, andyou know all of these things,
and then and then maybe we canbe approved by him yeah, I read
that book combs.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I forget the name of it.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
There's a hard black liberation theology.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
That one yeah, I did read that one, and that was.
That was hard to me.
Even for even for me as a blackperson, that was very hard to
believe.
Yes, there's so many things youhave to do to to be right I'm
not sure if I'm saying it to beright, but you know, just to be
(26:41):
accepted by a particular race ofpeople, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, that's basically it.
Like he puts forward an ideathat, in order for a certain
group of people to be consideredright or good, then you know,
these are the things that mustbe done.
But what do I have to do to beconsidered right or good?
Am I just right or good becauseI'm Black?
(27:08):
That you know.
That just lets me off, like inone of his books, and I don't
think it's Black LiberationTheology, I think it's, oh,
black Power.
He has one called Black Theologyand Black Power, something
similar.
I'm probably messing up thename, but he talks about the
(27:28):
fact that, um, you know, whitepeople can never tell black
people about their sin.
And if a white person sees thatI'm in sin and wants to come
and tell me that, hey, you mightwant to watch out.
You're in sin.
Your soul is, you know,potentially on the road to hell.
(27:48):
Why would I care what color youare?
What does it matter?
We never see any stipulation inscripture that says you know,
gentiles, you can never tell theJews about their sin, right,
yeah, scythians you can nevertell the jews about their sin
right, yeah, scythians, you cannever tell the greeks about
their sin.
Those, those distinctions aren'tcreated in scripture.
(28:09):
That's a form of partiality.
Right, we see that if you seeyour brother sinning, tell him.
Didn't say if you see yourwhite brother sinning, or if you
see your hispanic brothersinning, black person, go tell
him right, yeah, and that's whatracism is basically.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
You know, partiality according to you know biblical
standards, yeah, reality.
So we see that in mr jamesright yeah, james too yeah, oh
yeah, all right.
So let's talk about how to kindof like have conversations with
people who have, you know,ideologies as far as critical
(28:50):
race theory, wokeness, you know,white fragility, and before we
get into that first, and kind oflike give a broad overview of
what is critical race theory.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yes, I'm actually going to read a definition from
critical race theory andintroduction um by Richard
Delgado and Jane Stefancich.
It's a um uh like entry-levelcollege book for me to read too.
Right, um, but it it's reallygood because it's very short.
(29:24):
Um, it's definitely a lay levelbook, not an academic book.
Um and Jean Stefancich and um,yeah, richard Delgado and Jean
Stefancich are husband and wifeand they have been in the
critical race theory space sincethe very beginning.
They were actually at theinitial meeting, the first
(29:45):
meeting where critical racetheory actually became a theory,
where the phrase or the namewas coined by Kimberly Crenshaw
and Mari Matsuda.
They were part of the originalgroup in like 1989, 87 or 89.
But it says the critical racetheory movement is a collection
(30:07):
of activists and scholarsengaged in studying and
transforming the relationshipamong race, racism and power.
So what is critical race theory?
Critical race theory is amovement and it is meant.
This movement is meant totransform the relationship
between race, racism and power.
Critical theory itself, but justlooking at critical race theory
(30:31):
is extremely concerned aboutpower dynamics.
Who holds the power?
And looking at the structuresof power, how do we either A
take power from the dominantgroup those with the power to be
able to disperse it to thelarger crowd, or how do we have
(30:56):
a conversation of overturningthe oppressors?
How do the oppressed overturnthe oppressors?
But this is all in relation torace.
So how do we look at powerdynamics based on race?
How do we eradicate a lot ofthe power structures based on
race?
(31:16):
And so this is where you can seesome of the Marxist ideology,
just not applied directly toeconomics, but looking at it
from the standpoint of race.
So at one point in history wewere looking at the proletariat
and the bourgeoisie, and howcome the working class never
overthrew, when they had theopportunity, the ruling class?
(31:40):
They had the opportunity, theruling class, and many people
would say that there was a wayof thinking that had been
ingrained in the working classthat allowed them to continue to
participate with theiroppressors in a way that was not
beneficial to them.
I believe many critical racetheorists would say the same
(32:00):
that the oppressed classesparticipate in ways or norms
that are just ingrained with uswithin society without
overturning the society itself.
Partially because we probablyignorantly see this as something
(32:20):
that is to our benefit to adegree.
But critical race theory iscommitted to the overturning,
the transforming of race, racismand power.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
So how do you, how will we have like respectful
conversations to with people whoyou know have this mindset and
we want to kind of steer themtoward you know what the Bible
says, but without you know,beating the Bible over their
heads?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, I would definitely say that it takes a
lot of patience.
I know my ministry partner,krista, would say she had to
have a lot of patience with me.
You know, because I held towhat I held and I was firmly,
you know, very planted in what Ibelieved.
So it takes a lot of patience.
It also takes a lot ofquestions.
(33:10):
Ask questions and you know whatI would even say before any of
that, have a biblical worldview.
Know what you believe.
Know what the Bible says, notjust what you think, not just
what you hope, not just whatyou've heard.
Know what the Bible says foryourself, because a critical
(33:31):
race theorist can also, you know, want to uphold Christianity or
say they uphold Christianityand, you know, have a strong
belief in Jesus as well.
There's just something in theworldview that's a little
different.
So for me, opposing criticalrace theory, I automatically saw
all white people as beingoppressive, being the oppressor,
(33:54):
but we don't see that inscripture.
We see individual heartattitudes that can lead someone
to participate in impartiality.
So know the word of God foryourself, do not just lean on
somebody else's understanding ofthe word.
Then I would say, understandsome of the framework of the
(34:15):
theory that you are talkingabout.
So, if it's critical racetheory, understand what are some
of the arguments of criticalrace theorists.
Not every argument of acritical race theorist needs to
be tossed out.
Some of those things need to belooked into and you can have
conversations about that.
Understand the place whereChristianity and critical race
theory overlap.
(34:36):
So I started out earlier bysaying you know, I also believe
that race is a social construct.
That's a point of conversationwhere you can say yes, I also
agree with this.
But then you can ask a questionbased on another tenet of
critical race theory that youmay not agree with, and you can,
you know, ask questions andhave conversation from there.
(34:57):
I would say be in it for thelong haul.
I would say, be in it for thelong haul.
You don't have to go into aconversation with someone and
just at that moment say thisperson is going to hear me today
and they're just going tochange their mind.
That probably isn't going tohappen.
What is more likely to happenis that if you're patient and
gracious in your conversation,then you can win the next
(35:19):
conversation.
It doesn't always have to beabout winning this big war.
You know we read in um in firstPeter, I want to say it may be
first, peter three, where weshould be able to give an answer
with gentleness and respect forthe hope that we have.
Can you do that?
That doesn't mean you have tobe a punk and you have to like
just roll over and let peopleyou know talk to you any kind of
(35:39):
way or say whatever they'regoing to say, and it also
doesn't mean that you have towater down the word of God.
The word of God is the word ofGod and the word of God will
stand on its own.
The Lord will use you to beable to communicate his word to
someone, and we do that withgentleness and respect.
And I can also say that ingentleness and respect in my
(36:01):
answer, I will speak boldly,with confidence and with courage
, and so we don't need toexchange confidence and courage
for gentleness and respect.
The two can live together.
But, yes, know the word of God.
(36:24):
God understand what the socialtheory you're going to be
talking about, whether it'squeer theory, feminist theory,
critical race theory, whatever.
Understand a little bit of that.
You don't have to be an expertin it, but understand a little
bit of it.
Where are the places wherethere's overlap?
Where are the starkdiscrepancies between
Christianity and the socialtheory that you're talking about
?
And then, be gracious, askquestions, be willing to have
(36:50):
the next conversation.
Don't feel like you have to goin and answer all of their
questions about the Bible, orthat you have to have a response
for everything that they bringup.
You can take a time out and say, hey, look, how about we follow
up with this question next week?
Give yourself some time tothink or to do more research,
(37:10):
and then pray.
Make sure that you are praying,because, at the end of the day,
like I said, the word of Godwill stand on its own.
You are not anybody's savior.
You don't have a heaven or ahell to put anybody in.
What you can do, though, isrespectfully and responsibly
share the word of God, the truthof the word of God, but you
have to know it in order to beable to do that, so I hope
that's helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, I think it's.
I want to liken it to you know,witnessing to an atheist.
You know if they're staunch intheir belief, you know it's
going to take time.
You got to know the word, yougot to be patient, you know you
got to be gracious, like yousaid, and you know it just.
It's just all those factorsinvolving because you, you're
(37:51):
not saving that person.
You know god has to move theirheart.
So yeah, similar to you knowissues on race, god has to be
the one you know, to ultimatelymove their heart.
But we're just the vessel orthe person that he has is here
to maybe share that word withthem, to get them to think.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yes, go think, yes, yes.
If you do nothing more than puta pebble in someone's shoe,
you've done a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right, yeah, and it just may be that next person,
you know, that will lead them tothe place that they need to be.
Yes, that was very helpful.
Yes, patience, yes, that's thekey.
All patience, yes, all right,so we're kind of wrapping up
here.
So what would be a Bible studytip that you could offer my
(38:42):
audience?
As far as you know, studyingthe Bible, understanding it
better.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Um, in regards to race and ethnicity, or in
regards to just general?
Okay, so just in general, Iwould say never read a Bible
verse by itself.
This is something that Krista,my ministry partner, shared with
me at the very beginning,because I could take Micah 6.8
and run with it, and now I'madvocating for justice issues
(39:11):
across the board, things thatare actually sinful but in our
current culture are consideredjustice issues.
An example of that would beMicah 6.8, where we are
encouraged to do justice.
Well, in our current culture,reproductive justice is a thing.
(39:33):
Well, reproductive justice isalso another euphemism for
abortion.
So, in the call to do justice,abortion.
So in the call to do justice, Icould potentially be advocating
for abortion.
Um, this is why you never readjust one bible verse.
Read the word of god in context.
In order to understand micahsix, you actually need to
understand what's happening inmichael one, and so, looking at
(39:57):
the book of micah in context,also understanding the time
frame that Micah was set in, whowere the contemporaries that
wrote alongside Micah?
We need to understand the wordof God, not just a passage in
the word of God.
So I think that would be myprimary encouragement to people
(40:20):
is to read chunks of scripture,not just, you know, these two
verses that can confirm what I'mlooking for.
There's a lot in the Bible thatyou might have to say wait a
minute, hold on.
Let me read this again, andespecially because the word of
God was not written to us.
It was written to a specificpeople during a specific time,
(40:44):
and so we get to in our 2022context.
I get to now look back intothis moment in time and see what
God was saying.
Now, the word of God does notchange, but I need to understand
how the word of God wasunderstood during that time, not
how do I understand it in lightof my 2022 mindset that has
(41:07):
been impacted by things likecritical theory, post-modernism,
feminist theory and all ofthose things.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, and it's Micah.
You said Micah 6?
.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Micah 6.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Is that the do justice?
Love, mercy and humbly.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Walk humbly with your God.
Yeah that's that one, and we seeit everywhere.
We see, you know, secularpeople putting that verse up and
encouraging Christians.
Isn't it your word that saysyou know you should do justice
and walk humbly with your God?
Well, how are you not doingjustice for the woman who wants
(41:42):
to have an abortion?
Well, hold on, do youunderstand what the biblical
term for justice actually is?
So we need to look at eventhese words.
That culture is throwing back atthe church and saying this is
your word, not ours.
Well, true, I can acknowledgethat Justice is the foundation
(42:05):
of the Lord's throne.
We see justice in his character.
So, yes, but let me define itfor you in the right context.
I am not going to acceptjustice from the culture and
then do that.
What I'm going to do is I'mgoing to look to my heavenly
father, who is the author andcreator of all things.
(42:26):
I'm going to look at what doeshe have to say about justice?
How is it defined according tohis principles?
And I'm going to do that, andthat, most often, is going to be
antithetical to the culture.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah, that's the only way you can be discerning, you
know, by reading the whole wordand not just picking verses out
here and there.
To you know, suit what we wantto what we want to say.
Try to justify it.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yes, but we are good cherry pickers.
I'm a good cherry picker.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yes, I think we all are.
I've had that problem too.
I had to learn to.
What is this verse reallysaying?
What did it say beforehand?
What is this prophet trying tosay?
Who are they talking to?
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yes, for so many years I was holding to Micah 6,
8, but I had never read Micah 6,1.
You know just six verses, sevenverses, you know, know up the
chapter and I had never read it.
And I had definitely never readmichael one one.
So you know it.
When you, when you look at averse in the context of the
(43:35):
larger book, it the verse thatyou're looking at may not
actually be saying what youthink it's saying right, yeah, a
whole another different thingthat you never intended to.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yes, yes, yeah, all right.
Well, monique, this was a veryhelpful and interesting
conversation and thank you forbeing on the show thanks for
having me, I appreciate it allright.
So I hope that conversation washelpful.
As we talked about race, racialreconciliation and biblical
(44:10):
unity, I hope you will go andcheck out the website Center for
Biblical Unity.
I will put those links in theshow notes.
And then also, monique and herministry partner, krista
Bontrager, have a new book outat this moment.
It is called Walking in UnityBiblical Answers to Questions on
(44:31):
Race and Racism.
It is a good read so I highlyrecommend it for you.
Like I said, those links totheir ministry will be in the
show notes, so go check it outand remember until next time.
God is always good and he'salways faithful.
Thank you for listening to thepodcast.
(44:51):
Do me a favor by following thepodcast and leaving a review to
help spread the word.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.