November 22, 2025 • 64 mins
Uncover the captivating journey of Marcia Montenegro, a former professional astrologer who found her true calling in Christianity. In this enlightening episode, Marcia reveals the allure of astrology and New Age beliefs, and how they promise but ultimately fail to deliver true spiritual progress. As she shares her conversion story, you'll hear about the profound experiences and divine interventions that led her away from the deceptive practices of her past and towards the transformative truth of Christ.
We also navigate the complexities of integrating faith with modern spiritual practices, examining how New Age influences, such as zodiac signs and the Enneagram, have permeated Christian communities. Marcia sheds light on the occult origins of the Enneagram and challenges its place within Christian self-identity. This episode also features a critical look at Richard Rohr's teachings on the universal Christ, questioning the impact of perennial wisdom on traditional faith interpretations. Don't forget to support our podcast by following and leaving a review.
The origin of the Enneagram - Claudio Naranjo speaks - June 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlO3KJWnNd8
Here are some articles that Marcia Montenegro has written
Astrology https://www.watchman.org/profiles/pdf/astrologyprofile.pdf
ASTROLOGY: WHAT IT REALLY IS http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Astrolgy.html
Enneagram https://www.watchman.org/Enneagram.pdf
THE FICTIONS AND FACTS OF THE ENNEAGRAM http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_FictionFactsEnneagram.aspx
THE ENNEAGRAM HAS NO CHRISTIAN ORIGINS http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Enneagram2.aspx
THE CHRISTIAN ENNEAGRAM AUTHORS: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW AND WHY http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_ChristianEnneagramAuthors.aspx
And you can check out Marcia Montenegro & Christian Answers for the New Age
Website: http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/exastrologer
Do you want to learn how to study the Bible? Check out the YouTube channel Faithfullyliven youtube.com/@faithfullyliven
Do you want to read about how to live faithfully? Check out the blog http://lyfe102.org
Get a free Road Map to get started learning how to study the Bible https://mailchi.mp/88f9c9405da0/bible-study-road-map
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the podcast where we
learn how to live for Christ inour daily lives.
I am Dwan, your host, and Iwould like to invite you on a
(00:32):
journey with me to explore wherewe strive to encourage you to
live for Christ faithfully byoffering guidance on how to
study the Bible, how tounderstand the Bible better and
how to remain faithful tohistoric Christianity in a
contemporary society.
In our world today, humanitydoes not have a problem about
(00:53):
thinking about ourselves.
We all long to establish sometype of identity, who we are.
How can we explain ourpersonality to others?
Today, we're going to talkabout zodiac signs and the
Enneagram.
Both of these seem to providepeople ways to describe who they
(01:16):
are as a person, but shouldChristians use these
descriptions provided by azodiac sign or Enneagram to
define who we are?
I'm grateful to share thisconversation that I had with
marcia montenegro.
This is a replay of aconversation that I had about
zodiac signs and the enneagram,so I hope you enjoy it all right
(01:51):
?
So before I jump into myconversation with marcia, let me
tell you a little bit about her.
Before trusting christ, marciamontenegro was a professional
astrologer and taught astrologyfor many years, as well as
having been involved prior tothat in Eastern and New Age
(02:14):
practices for many years.
Through her ministry, christianAnswers for the New Age, marsha
speaks around the country and onradio and writes on New Age and
occult topics.
She has a master's in religionfrom Southern Evangelical
(02:34):
Seminary, which is in Charlotte,north Carolina, and serves as a
missionary with FellowshipInternational Mission, which is
in Allentown, pennsylvania.
Based in Arlington, virginia,she is the mother of an adult
son and author of Spellbound,the Paranormal Seduction of
(02:57):
Today's Kids, which waspublished in 2006.
And she's also the co-author ofRichard War and the Enneagram
Secret, which was published in2020.
All right, let's jump into myconversation with Marsha.
Hi, marsha, thank you forcoming on the show today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It's really nice to be on your program, Dwan.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
All right.
So before we dive in the twotopics that we're going to go
over, could you tell us how youbecame a follower of Christ?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Oh, ok.
Well, yes, I was very involvedin the New Age for many years
and I was a professionalastrologer, very active
astrologerer, teaching it aswell, and I really thought I was
on a spiritual path.
I thought that that I wasprogressing spiritually and that
(03:57):
I would continue to progressspiritually.
So this, this kind of feeling,actually is a very good feeling.
You feel that you're doingthings right, that you feel like
you're learning things all thetime and you feel that that
helps you progress, and you knowit's.
It's sad to say, but you reallydo feel very, in most cases,
(04:20):
optimistic about your spiritualprogress.
Um, which is sad because ofcourse, you're you're not,
you're not even believing in theright God and you know much
less the right Jesus Christ, soyou're completely wrong, but you
just feel so good about whatyou're doing.
So it's a real deception, but Iunderstand the appeal of it and
(04:45):
I understand how it feels to beon that path and why people
like it, you know, and find itintriguing or find it.
They find it satisfying in someway.
So the Lord intervened I don'tknow how much detail you want me
to give, but he intervened overa period of time and it, I
(05:05):
guess, the best way to put it issupernaturally, because I
wasn't being told anything byanybody, or I didn't come across
something that I read that mademe start to question what I
believed.
But it was just theseimpressions.
I got First to go to a church.
I felt very compelled to go toa church and I resisted that for
(05:27):
months and I finally went to achurch and in the service at the
beginning I was sitting in theback because I was going to
leave early they started theservice, they played music,
everyone stood up and aprocession came from the back of
the church, a young boycarrying a cross, and as he
(05:48):
walked by me I felt thisoverwhelming waterfall of love
falling on me.
I knew it.
Now, this is a thing.
How did I know this?
I don't know, but I knew it wasfrom a personal God telling me
he loved me, and I had neverexperienced anything like that
(06:09):
at all.
Um, and so I ended up stayingfor the service and I ended up
going back and I was going thereevery week.
But I was not thinking at allthat I was going to become a
Christian, I just was goingthere.
It was sort of curiosity andkind of to see what would happen
(06:30):
.
And you know, I met a few peopleand then, while, and then
within a few weeks, I wasgetting this impression God
didn't like astrology.
And then I got the impressionhe wanted me to give it up,
which was really just.
You know, I that I did not wantto deal with that at all.
I was not, I was not for that.
(06:53):
I was like, no, this is goingtoo far.
You know, I'm I don't think I'mgoing to do that.
So I really resisted it.
But it was so clear that Godwanted me to give this up.
Now I didn't hear a voice oranything.
That's why I say impression,because it's the best word I can
come up with to describe it.
Of course, now, looking back onit, I mean I think it was the
(07:17):
Holy Spirit, but you know, atthe time I wouldn't have thought
that.
So I did, I actually gave it upand I mean I wasn't even a
Christian.
And see, I think this is thepart of my story that shows that
this was all the Lord, thatthis was not me or anybody else,
because I actually gave it upbefore I was a Christian oh so I
(07:41):
mean I, you know who would, whowould do that?
I mean I, I was, I was anastrologer and I was, you know,
I clients.
And so, anyway, I I that mylife really changed.
I gave it up and I startedreading um the bible.
And it was while I was reading,uh, a passage in Matthew 8,
(08:03):
that God opened my eyes and Isaw who Christ was.
And that was about a monthafter I gave astrology up.
It was right before Christmas,and that's when I was born again
, that's when I became abeliever and I knew that I was a
new person.
I finally saw who Christ reallywas.
(08:25):
I realized everything I had beendoing was wrong.
It was all all wrong, all youknow, all going in the wrong
direction.
And I did find out severalmonths later.
A young Christian man had beenpraying for me with a group at
his church.
Church, it was in an officewhere I was working part-time
(08:48):
and I was actually working therebecause I wasn't an astrologer.
The person who hired me wantedme to give him insights on the
employees based on their birthdata, but it was secret.
The people there did not knowthat.
Only he knew it and I knew it.
I don't think his secretaryeven knew it, so they just
thought I was there for somekind of I don't know.
(09:10):
You know, I was doing some kindof paperwork or something.
So that's why I was in thatoffice and that's where that
young Christian man was whoapparently felt led to pray for
me with his young adultfellowship group at his church,
and so they were praying for meall during that time.
So that's that's kind of asummary of what happened.
(09:32):
I did have um, I have it on mywebsite,
christiananswersforthenewageorg,and I've done some programs
where the whole program is justme telling the story.
You know 45 minutes or an hourof it.
You know extended story ofeverything.
So but that's it in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So I'm glad you mentioned your ministry.
Christian Answers for the NewAge.
Can you kind of tell us howthat got started?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Sure, yes.
After I became a Christian, Iwas very concerned.
What I was seeing around me inchurches was that people
Christians didn't reallyunderstand what the new age was.
They had these kind of funnyideas about it.
They tended to see it as thisreal extreme thing and actually
(10:24):
at that time it was beginning toget more mainstream and so I
was kind of alarmed because Ifelt, well, christians don't
really understand what this is.
I really feel I need to explainit to them and I really wanted
to go out there and like, rightaway, start talking, which is
probably good.
God didn't let me do thatbecause I mean, I was really a
new believer and who knows how Iwould have said it or whatever.
(10:48):
I made enough mistakes, as itwas once I got started.
But a few years later the Lordstarted opening doors for me to
share my story and to talk aboutthe new age, and I talked to
youth groups and I talked alittle bit in my church.
I talked to youth groups and Italked a little bit at my church
and eventually, after severalyears, that led to me feeling
(11:11):
the Lord really wanted me to gofull time with that.
This was the encouragement ofpeople in my church, my missions
pastor and other people, and atfirst I resisted because full
time ministry that was kind ofscary idea for me, you know.
So I wasn't really really onboard with it right away at all
(11:34):
and it took about a year for theLord working on me to see that
that's where he wanted me.
So that led me to going with amission agency, fellowship
International Mission.
So that led me to going with amission agency, fellowship
International Mission, which isbased in Allentown, pennsylvania
.
I'm in Virginia but they're inPennsylvania, and I served under
that mission agency throughthat mission agency, basically
(11:56):
as a missionary.
But my ministry is ChristianAnswers for the New Age and I've
been doing it full time since1998.
It's 24 years.
Oh, wow, yeah, it's a long time.
It full time since 1998.
It's 24 years.
Oh, wow, yeah, it's a long time.
I can't believe it's 24 years.
So that's how that got startedand and the Lord has very
graciously, um, sustained me and, you know, given me, uh,
(12:20):
partners in the ministry andit's it's been very, very
encouraging to see.
You know that the Lord isfaithful and you know what he
calls you to.
He will sustain you.
You just have, you have tocontinue to trust in him, though
, which is an ongoing right.
Yeah, thank for all Christiansyeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So I'm glad you mentioned as you were.
You were talking about how youstarted your ministry, how you
saw that new age and kind ofoccultic practices were coming
into the church.
So I know Christians know theybelieve in their zodiac sign or
they know their Enneagram number, ember, and these are not
(13:08):
biblical.
So kind of let's lay afoundation for like where these
things came from and whybelievers shouldn't be utilizing
these.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Okay, yes, um.
As far as astrology goes, uh,that is addressed in scripture.
Now I do want to say so peopleknow this there is no Hebrew
word for astrology, because theword astrology is a more modern
word, um, so that the way it'sdescribed in the bible, the
(13:36):
Hebrew uses differentterminology, like um, they'll
say dividing up the sky, becausethat's what astrologers did,
because they were, you know,measuring things and seeing
where the planets were, althoughthey thought they were stars,
they didn't even know what aplanet was then.
Um, so, uh, like dividing upthe sky, um, or bowing down to
(13:59):
the host of heaven.
So there's different languagethat's used in the Bible to
describe the practice ofastrology, but it's very much
present.
I think we see it reallystrongly in the book of Daniel,
(14:19):
where the king has his advisors,which include the astrologers,
who are sometimes called thechaldeans, and sometimes that
refers to the astrologers, andso you've got them in daniel and
you've got in isaiah 47.
That chapter is a condemnationof babylon and it's sorcery and
(14:41):
it includes the fact that itlistens to astrologers.
So God is condemning that andbasically he says you know, the
astrologers can't save you.
So astrology is addressedspecifically and in other ways.
Astrology is a form ofdivination, and divination
(15:01):
itself is mentioned throughoutthe Bible.
It's even in the New Testament,in Acts 16, where you have
(15:22):
delphi, who was a uh, what wewould we would call now maybe
like a psychic, who you know,sat on this special place where
there were all these gases,apparently, and went into these
trances and then, you know,spoke out stuff, um, and this
was very pagan, of course, andshe was said to have the spirit
(15:43):
of the python.
So this slave girl wasapparently kind of basically a
fortune teller giving fortunesto people and follows Paul
around and finally he turns toher and he actually cast a demon
out of her.
Now, that does not meaneveryone who does divination is
(16:05):
possessed, but I think what itshows us is that, at the root of
this, satan is at the root ofthis.
This is, this is something fromSatan.
It is not from God.
That's what that tells us.
So divination is condemned, anddivination is when you are
getting information from asupernatural source or and or
(16:27):
reading a hidden meaning insomething.
So you look at tarot cards, forexample, and you have all these
pictures and you believethere's a message there.
You believe there's a hiddenmeaning there.
Or astrology, you're looking atthe position of the planets and
the sun and the moon and you'resaying, well, you know venus is
(16:50):
in libra and, um, you know themoon is in pisces and that means
this, you know.
So you're you're giving aninterpretation that isn't
apparent.
That's not apparent to anybody.
That's something you have tolearn, special knowledge.
It's secret knowledge.
So that's where you come intothe aspect of the occult.
(17:10):
This is all part of the occult,and so astrology is a very
occult based practice condemnedby god.
Now, I know it's so popular inthe culture that and a lot of
christians sometimes think thatthere could be something to it
that maybe it's actuallyoriginally biblical, you know,
(17:31):
and it got maybe twisted bypaganism or something.
But that's not true, becausethere's no validity to astrology
, there's no scientific validityto it.
Uh, the position of the planetsin a certain zodiac sign even
that isn't, isn't accurate,because the way we measure it
(17:52):
isn't accurate anymore.
And so even your so-called sunsign, for when you were born,
has changed over the centuries,and it's changed enough that
you're probably not the sun signthat you think you are.
You're probably the sign beforeit in In many cases not all
(18:12):
cases, but many cases.
So there's been a shift in theactual position, the orientation
of the earth towards theseconstellations, and so it gets
really technical.
But it's not accurate and whenyou think about it, why would
the position of a planet haveany meaning in your life and why
(18:32):
would god want you to know theposition of a planet in order to
to understand yourself?
I mean, really think about itmakes no sense at all.
I mean the, and then you haveyou have something called the
gospel and the stars.
I don't want to get into that,but there are people who have
tried to correlate the 12 zodiacsigns with the gospel and
they've said that Adam and Evewere given the gospel through
(18:54):
the zodiac.
Of course, there's no biblicalbasis for this.
All of the scriptures that areused for this have been refuted.
I've done many, many Facebookposts on this and God would not
do that because that goesagainst his nature.
God doesn't ask us to look forhidden meanings, he doesn't give
us hidden meanings and things,and he doesn't want us to look
(19:17):
to creation for answers, andthat would be looking to
creation for the gospel.
The gospel is specialrevelation and that comes
through God's word.
And Jesus came and gave thegospel, and we know it from
God's word.
And Jesus came and gave thegospel, and we know it from
God's word.
We don't look to creation tofind a message from God.
(19:38):
So right away you've got aproblem there.
People who say that are notunderstanding God's character.
That goes against his nature.
So there's nothing that supportsthe idea of astrology and the
fact that you may think you, youfit your zodiac sign or you're
at maybe you had your chart doneby an astrologer and you
thought it was accurate.
Well, there are all kinds offactors that play into that,
(20:01):
that make you think that there'sconfirmation bias and there's
something called the barnumeffect and the effect um, these
are ways that things can soundvery true, or aspects of them
are true, and so you, you latchon to it and you start filtering
things through it and it'sreally I mean, psychologists
(20:22):
know about this, they know howit works to, um, trick you into
believing it and they have doneexperiments where they you know
they give, like a professor whogave supposedly something to all
the people in his class thatwas about who they were, based
on their birth date, and theyall read it and he said Okay,
(20:45):
how many of you think this, thisis accurate?
And most of them, you know so,97 or 98% of them thought it was
accurate.
And then he had them pass it tothe person sitting behind them
and they saw it was the samething.
They all got the exact samething.
They all had the exact samething, and I've seen this on
(21:06):
YouTube.
There's some duplications ofthis, not necessarily with
astrology, but with other things, with personality tests and
stuff.
And then and he'll say the samething to everybody and they'll
all say, oh yeah, that's me.
Oh, I can't believe how you youreally pegged me, you know.
So I watched a YouTube video ofthat not too long ago.
So that is out there.
(21:26):
We know that that's how itworks and so it's very
convincing.
And we can be deceived.
You know, we deceive ourselves.
We don't really see ourselvesthe way we are.
We kind of see ourselves theway we would like to see, like
the way we'd like to be.
We tend to, you know, want tosee ourselves a little better
than we probably are, and so wewe buy into these things that
that aren't accurate.
(21:46):
So that's astrology and ofcourse, it is an occult practice
and it will lead people intodeception and you know it will
lead unbelievers further awayfrom christ right, yeah, so I
guess, transitioning to theenneagram, yes, finding, yes,
true self, leading, leading toGod.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
So where did the Enneagram come from?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, the Enneagram is a little, actually a little
more.
The history of it is a littlemore complicated because it's
not as obvious what it is, andit's presented in the church as
a personality, you know tool, apersonality assessment tool, um,
and so it.
(22:35):
It looks.
For most people it looks kindof innocent or neutral anyway,
and maybe astrology they wouldbe like, oh no, I'm not going to
have anything to do with that.
I know that's wrong.
But the enneagram, oh hey, it'sjust a psychological tool.
You know, actually, it did notstart that way at all.
First of all, it's not ancient.
Unfortunately, all theEnneagram books say it's ancient
(22:58):
or they say that its originsare so murky, we don't really
know when it started.
But, you know, maybe Pythagorasstarted it, you know it was in
ancient Greece or maybeso-and-so, and then they throw
out all this stuff aspossibilities, none of which are
true.
So there's this idea that it'sancient and there's an idea that
it has Christian origins, whichhas also been promoted, sadly,
(23:21):
by a lot of Christian books anda lot of Christian Enneagram
teachers.
This was something I wasconstantly when it started
really getting into the churchand getting hold like around
2018.
And I was constantly posting.
You know the Enneagram isn'tancient.
The Enneagram has no Christian.
I have an article on my websitethe Enneagram has no Christian
(23:41):
origins.
That's the article is.
On that.
I was just kind of standing.
I felt like I was standing on arooftop and screaming.
Sometimes I was screaming intothe wind Like is anybody hearing
me?
So I was extremely passionateabout getting this out there
(24:03):
because I just couldn't standthese falsehoods.
You know just there's so muchfalsehood going on.
Falsehoods, you know justthere's so much falsehood going
on.
So it really started as a shapethat we know it today, in 1916,
which is only 106 years ago.
Right, yeah, and it started bya man named George Gurdjieff.
(24:26):
He was a spiritual.
He was like a mystic and aspiritual teacher.
He claimed to explore all thesereligions and he claimed to
travel around and talk todifferent religious leaders and
he had his own following, peoplewho followed his teachings.
He was teaching this veryesoteric stuff, kind of like
(24:49):
what you would hear today in thenew age that you don't really
know who you are, you don'treally know reality.
You're asleep, you have to wake, you have to have an awakening.
You know.
He called it awakening to thenew man, and so he had a program
for that and the Enneagram forhim was a picture of the
(25:10):
universe and he said this is,this is the universe.
You can fit all the laws of theuniverse into the enneagram.
It explains every.
In other words, the enneagramexplains everything.
Now this is sort of an occultidea too, that you get a diagram
or something and this is goingto explain reality, because you
know, you can start playingaround with it and reading all
(25:31):
kinds of things into it, whichis what he did.
He had the law of three and thelaw of seven.
That, he said, were illustratedmathematically by the Enneagram
and there are mathematicalcomponents to it.
The Enneagram is, by the way, Ishould say is a nine pointed
diagram, geometric figure,pointed diagram, geometric
(25:52):
figure.
So when you have nine points,you have nine is sort of like a
quote-unquote magic number andand and numbers because of the
way math works, and so you canhave something called casting
out nines, like eight and one isnine, seven and two is nine, um
, and if you add things up tonine, well, I'm not going to get
into that.
Anyway, there's all kinds ofthings you can do with it
(26:13):
mathematically.
So he was doing stuff like that, and he had a pupil named
Ouspensky and OuspenskyGurdjieff didn't write anything
about the Enneagram butOuspensky did, and Ouspensky
wrote about Gurdjieff's ideasand Ouspensky also had followers
(26:33):
.
And so there were peoplefollowing Gurdjieff's teachings
and Ouspensky's teachings whoknew about the Enneagram.
But it wasn't about apersonality thing.
It wasn't a personality thing.
It was this cosmic tool, youknow, for awakening to the new
self or whatever.
And so that's where it was andthey both died in the late 1940s
(26:56):
.
Then along comes Oscar Hichazoin the 1960s.
He's an occult teacher and hehas a school in Chile, in Eureka
, chile, and he starts teachingthe Enneagram.
There are different storiesabout how he came across it.
(27:16):
There's quite a few storiesabout how he came across it.
Some of them are very mystical,like an angel reveal it to him
in this mystical thing.
I did a Facebook post on that.
I read a story that he ran intosome followers of Gurdjieff in
a cafe where he was working andthat's how he found out about it
(27:37):
.
And then you, then you have theideas.
I've heard from more scholarlypeople that he probably read a
book by Uspensky.
He probably read one ofUspensky books which were
available at the time and sincehe was interested in in occult
kind of ideas.
It's not too surprising he,because I think he studied the
Kabbalah as well.
(27:57):
So he studied a lot ofdifferent things like that, and
that may be how he found outabout it and he started teaching
it at his school.
But he kind of put his own stampon it and he said these nine
points were ego fixations, andan ego fixation is who you
(28:17):
identify as, but it's not thereal you You're identifying as
that person because that is howyou were conditioned to think
and you were raised to believecertain things.
You had certain experiences inyour life and all of these
conditioned you to believecertain things and then that
made you who you think you are.
(28:38):
But that's your false self,that's not your true self.
And so you have to deconstructthis false self and find the
true essence.
He believed that everybody hada perfect, pure essence and we
all have this pure essence self.
You know, kind of I don't knowif he used the word divine, but
(29:01):
I I wouldn't be surprised if hedid the idea would be that it's
that it's divine and you havethis pure self and that's your
true self.
And so so you go through theego fixation to help you
discover that and realize allthese falsehoods about yourself.
So that's how he taught it, andhe had a pupil named Claudio
Naranjo.
Claudio Naranjo was a Chileanpsychiatrist and in case anybody
(29:26):
thinks that gives the Enneagramsome validity, let me tell you
what his specialty was.
Naranjo's specialty wasstudying the effects of
mind-altering drugs on the brain.
So, yeah, yes, that was histhing.
That was his thing, and hepartook.
He took the drugs himself forspiritual experiences.
(29:49):
He was very into this.
He was into shamanism.
Um, he did a long, longinterview that I watched um, I
mean, it must have been abouttwo hours long with a german
filmmaker.
A german guy interviewed himand the whole thing was about
naranjo's absolute love forshamanism and how he feels
(30:11):
that's the path he's the closestto.
And shamanism is really sorcery.
It involves the use ofmind-altering drugs, usually for
spirit contact or contact withthe dead.
The shaman is the mediatorbetween the tribe and the
spirits, and so the shaman isthe mediator and the healer.
(30:35):
So they did healing or they dohealing.
There's still shamans around.
They do healing and a lot of itis done through, supposedly,
this contact with a spirit world.
It could be that they could besaying it's the ancestors, they
could be saying it's some otherkind of spirits, could be animal
(30:56):
spirits, I mean all kinds ofthings, but the bottom line is
it's the spirit world and theshaman's the mediator and brings
the messages and the healing tothe people.
So that's what a shaman is andthis is what Naranjo was
fascinated with, and so that'swhere his interest was and he
(31:18):
believed in spirit contact, asdid Ichazo.
Ichazo did spirit contact aswell and Naranjo called his
spirits higher authorities andNaranjo called his spirits
higher authorities and hebelieved, you know, in getting
messages from them andcontacting them.
(31:38):
So this is where Naranjo wasspiritually and mentally.
He was into this whole spiritcontact thing.
He basically was kind of a newager.
He basically was kind of a newager and he was teaching
Enneagram that the nine pointsthere, which came to be called
types, the nine types alsorepresented this, this self that
(32:02):
you had to uncover.
You had to dismantle todiscover this true essence.
Very similar to Ichazo, todiscover this true essence.
Very similar to Ichazo.
He probably added more layers,psychological layers, to it and
it was introduced to the New Agevia Helen Palmer, a psychic,
and it got into the New Age big,big time.
(32:24):
She wrote on it.
A lot of New Agers picked up onit, started teaching it and
using it.
Um, it also got into thecatholic church, uh, through a
jesuit priest named bob oaks.
Uh, and he learned it fromnaranjo and he took it to a
seminary in chicago and so somecatholic priests learned,
(32:47):
learned it.
It was never endorsed orpromoted by the Catholic Church
and in fact, the first warningsagainst the Enneagram came from
Roman Catholics who hadencountered it, including one
who had been teaching it.
A Jesuit named Mitch Pacwalearned the Enneagram when Bob
(33:07):
Oaks took it to Loyola and hestarted teaching it and using it
.
And then he startedinvestigating it and discovered
wait a minute, this isn't, thisisn't, this isn't a good thing.
This doesn't have any originsin in psychology, it doesn't
have any Christian basis oranything.
He just, you know, so juststarted denouncing it.
(33:29):
Now, the reason I'm bringing upthe catholic angle is because
there are still catholics outthere who use it and there's
some books by catholics on theenneagram.
Um, but also I want to bring itup because one of the people
who learned it, apparently atloyola or in connection with
that, was richard war, and he'ssomebody I have to talk about in
(33:51):
a minute, because he plays amajor role in this Enneagram
business in the church.
So the Enneagram that was howit took shape.
Now, claudio Naranjo admitted ina video that he got most of the
information on the nine typesfrom automatic writing, and
automatic writing is a form ofspirit contact.
(34:11):
So he claims that is where alot of the information came from
.
Um, you know, from his higherauthorities and um, he
apparently thinks that's areally cool thing and you can
tell the video he thinks that,and the people that are sitting
there thinking it's a new ageprogram.
(34:31):
So you know, they're all on thesame page with it.
Um, this video is still onyoutube and I've posted it many
times.
I have links to it, I think, insome of my enneagram articles.
Other people have startedincorporating it now when they
wanted to expose the enneagram.
So this, so what you're dealingwith here, really is a tool
(34:52):
based on occult beliefs thatcomes primarily from two men who
did spirit contact, and theideas in it are completely
anti-Christian the idea offinding a true self, a pure
essence.
This is how New Agers talkabout it.
They'll talk about the essenceand the pure self.
Um, this, of course, is not achristian concept.
(35:16):
We don't have a purse, pureself or pure essence.
You know we have a fallen selfthat needs to be regenerated
through faith in christ.
And then we have the new selfin christ, which is a a you you
know from the new birth, fromfaith in Christ.
It's a supernatural act of God,it's not something we've done,
(35:36):
and the new self is beingsanctified by the Holy Spirit as
we grow in Christ, which is our, you know, lifelong process,
constantly growing in Christ,and that's all.
The Holy Spirit has a big rolein that.
So this is not like aself-improvement program or
something that we discoverthrough a chart or a diagram on
(35:59):
how we can improve ourselves.
But the way it got into thechurch was through Richard Rohr,
because he wrote a book on theEnneagram and around 1990, 1991,
then, I think, for a while,maybe just some Catholics maybe
used it because he is a, Ishould say Richard Rohr is a
Franciscan friar, so he is aRoman Catholic, and it didn't
(36:25):
really get much beyond thatuntil maybe around 2000, 2009 or
so 2010, because of richardroars association with what's
called what used to be calledthe emergence.
They're now basicallyprogressives.
The emergence were a movementin the 90s in the church where
(36:47):
the idea was to reach out to theunchurched generation.
So you did church differently,you know, you made church kind
of like a coffee house, or youknow you preached in casual, in
jeans and a black turtleneck orsomething, and at first it was
kind of a matter of style andthings like that.
But some of these emergentleaders were questioning a lot
(37:10):
of the basic doctrines ofChristianity and basically
drifted away from from basicsound doctrine and they became
progressives and they startedpromoting Enneagram at their
conferences.
And I believe it's because ofRichard Warr's influence.
I believe you know, I can't Idon't know for sure, but I
believe that's how they knewabout it, right, and so they I
(37:33):
guess you know he was a goodsalesman for it and they bought
into it and they startedpromoting it.
And I noticed that and that'swhen I wrote my first article on
the Enneagram, which was 2011.
And that article is still on mywebsite.
And then I just, you know, know, didn't really think about it
very much until 20.
Well, actually I startednoticing in 2013-2014, richard
(37:57):
Ward getting more of aninfluence in the church through
these progressives and I startedwarning about Richard Ward and
I think I can't remember now,but I think maybe that's why I
started in 2014 warning aboutthe Enneagram, again because of
Richard Rohr's association withit.
I noticed in 2016 this is thereally landmark year when the
(38:20):
Road Back to you came out bySuzanne Stabile and Ian Cron,
and it came from IVPInterversity Press, which had
always been perceived as anevangelical publisher and had
published a lot of very goodChristian material.
They came out with this book,the Road Back to you, which was
(38:44):
about the Enneagram and usingthe Enneagram.
Frankly, I was quite shocked.
First, I was shocked by thetitle, because I thought the
title did not sound like aChristian book.
I'm like the road back to you.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
It's like this is a mistake.
(39:06):
They made a horrendous typo intheir title, but no, no, they
didn't.
And the really crucial thing toknow here is that Suzanne
Stabile was mentored by RichardRohr for many years and Ian Cron
is an associate of Richard Rohr.
They both have spoken at hiscenter.
(39:27):
He runs a center and a livingschool in Albuquerque, new
Mexico, and they have spokenthere.
In fact, I talk about SuzanneStabile in my 2011 article on
the Enneagram because Idiscovered that she was this
supposed evangelical, or atleast a Christian, doing the
(39:48):
Enneagram.
So I wrote about her and Iwrote about her association with
Richard Rohr too.
So I was alarmed and I startedwarning about it.
And the following year thesacred Enneagram came out by
Chris Horowitz from Zondervan.
So here you've got another bigpublisher, and Zondervan of
(40:09):
course, publishes a lot ofBibles and you know, people know
it, I think mainly for that.
But they're a big Christianpublisher, or perceived that way
.
And even if they're owned bysecular houses because I think
at some point I can't rememberwhere these places were, you
know, bought out or came underthe ownership of a secular they
(40:32):
were still still presented aspublishers of Christian material
and Christian writers still,you know, wrote books that were
published by them.
So that was, that was theperception that they were for
the Christian market.
And so the sacred enneagramcomes out.
Now Chris Horace, who wrotethat book was also mentored by
(40:55):
Richard Ward.
So you've got the first twobooks in the church written by
people mentored by andassociated with Richard Ward.
Okay, so here's where I have tostop it, because people are
thinking okay, richard Ward is aFranciscan friar, maybe that's,
you know, maybe that's good,Maybe it's bad, but you know
what's the big deal?
Why do you keep saying his name?
(41:16):
Here's why Richard Rohr iscompletely heretical.
You cannot call him a Christian, richard Rohr.
You know, and I say this with,I can prove this a thousand
times over with his own wordsRichard Ward teaches a
completely different Jesus.
He teaches that the firstincarnation of Christ, okay,
(41:38):
separates Jesus and Christ.
First of all, the firstincarnation of Christ was
creation.
The second incarnation wasJesus, okay, so, yeah, wrap your
head around that.
It's like.
It's like, yeah, you know,everybody goes wait a minute,
what, what did you say?
This is what he teaches.
(41:58):
So, here you go, you've gotright away, you've got.
Oh man, that's really wild.
You know, that's not biblical.
So jesus, yes, jesus was thesecond incarnation of this
christ that he calls theuniversal Christ.
But then, after theresurrection, the universal
Christ is, is out there as it'slike this power, this, this
(42:22):
energy flow that's pulling allcreation towards a point of
perfection.
Jesus sort of pointed to theuniversal Christ.
And, yeah, he points to theuniversal Christ.
But you're not.
It's not about believing inJesus, it's about the universal
Christ.
Yeah, and also, just to add,you know, insult to injury.
(42:48):
Jesus did not die for sins onthe cross, according to Richard
Rohr, because God is notconcerned about personal sins.
He's concerned about corporatesins.
You know pollution companies,that that pollute companies that
you know aren't just to people.
You know the whole socialjustice kind of thing although I
(43:10):
don't think he uses that term,but he's's, you know, his whole
thing is.
You know, corporate sin and andall these evil things that
governments do and corporationsdo.
That's what God is concernedwith.
And so Jesus did not die forsins.
He was a victim of the RomanEmpire because he was.
You know, he challenged.
(43:32):
He challenged people in powerand they didn't like that, and
so that's one reason that he waskilled.
Also, because it shows his love.
It shows that the cross is likean example for war, of what he
(43:54):
calls the cruciform shape ofreality, that it's all about
suffering.
It's through suffering that youcome to truth.
And I mean you know this isjust one of his many
philosophies.
He can go on and on on thattrack for a while.
He's very prolific.
Richard Roar has written many,many books.
He has a blog, cacorg.
(44:16):
You can find all kinds If youwant to look up atonement on his
blog and see what he says aboutthe atonement you can read it
for yourself or what he saysabout the universal Christ and
what he says about Jesus.
He's very prolific, I mean.
So nobody has any excuse fornot knowing what Richard Rohr
(44:36):
believes, because it only takesfive or 10 minutes of your time
and you can find out his ideasand you can find out that they
are not biblical very fast onthree of his books on my website
, including the universal Christ, which is probably the most
important book to know about,because that is where he talks
(44:57):
about who Jesus and theuniversal Christ are and you and
you can really see what his,his beliefs are there.
But he's done a lot of alsovideos, a lot of talks on
YouTube, a lot of interviewsI've I have listened to.
I mean, honestly, I'm I'm sureI've listened to at least 200
hours of Richard Rohr at least.
(45:19):
Probably over the years, maybeeven more, um.
So there's a lot out there, alot of material.
Now this is the man whoseinfluence has brought the
Enneagram into the church.
Is he a?
pre-annualist yes, and I'm gladyou asked that because I had I
hadn't brought that up.
He is because a lot of people,um wonder well, where is what is
(45:41):
richard war?
He's, these beliefs aren't evenroman catholic beliefs, and
they're not, of course they're.
They're not even.
You can't even just call themthat.
Um, he is a follower of what'scalled perennial wisdom or the
perennial philosophy, and he hasthat on his blog too.
He's very open about that.
And the perennial philosophy andI am not an expert on it this
(46:05):
is something I heard about yearsago but I didn't explore.
I kind of knew vaguely what itwas.
I knew it was out there.
It sounded very new age to me,vaguely what it was.
I knew it was out there.
It sounded very new age to me,and yet I knew it was something
different from the new age, butI didn't really explore it.
But I started exploring itbecause of Richard Rohr and the
Enneagram, and so I've done alot of reading on it since and
(46:26):
learned some things.
And this is basically thisphilosophy.
I think it really started inthe 1800s, possibly the late
1700s, and it's kind of amovement.
It's like these differentpeople who have these ideas that
all the world's religions comefrom the same source.
(46:46):
They all go back to the sametruth, to the same God and even
though they look very differentoutwardly, in essence they're
the same.
They're the same God and eventhough they look very different
outwardly, in essence they'rethe same.
They're the same thing.
They have the same message.
But you have to uncover thatmessage.
You have to go on this journeyto kind of this inner journey to
(47:09):
uncover the perennial message.
So it's not really like areligion where you go somewhere
and you learn about it and yousay, oh, okay, I agree with that
, you know.
I mean, yeah, you can readabout it and say, yeah, I agree
with that.
But then you kind of have to goon your own to this kind of
personal discovery of it.
That's my understanding of howit works and kind of like, when
(47:30):
you see it, you've kind ofawakened to this truth of
perennial wisdom and you see itand it's like, oh, wow, now I
see what's behind all religions.
In fact, there's a book ofessays on perennial wisdom by
followers of that that I read.
I read some of this book.
(47:51):
It's called the UnderlyingReligion underlying religion,
and so anybody who really wantsto read it from a primary source
, read it by people who believeit themselves, which I realize
is probably not most people, butcookie people have to read it,
um, and so it's very eye-opening.
You know, I read some of theessays by the more well-known
people who promoted thisphilosophy, um and it, and so it
(48:14):
was kind of it was overseas alot.
There was, like some hindufollowers and muslim followers,
um, of perennial wisdom, andjewish followers, and there are
people who call themselveschristians, who are followers to
the perennial wisdom and theycontinue to identify with their
religion.
So, you know, the hindu willstill say I'm a hindu and the
(48:35):
jew will still say, well, I'm ajew, I'm even a rabbi.
There's even rabbis who believethis.
But they might say they mightuse the phrase tradition, so
they might say, um, I follow thehindu tradition, um.
Or they might say I am achristian in the christian
wisdom tradition, so they mightuse the word with the word
(48:55):
wisdom is used a lot with thisum, so that's what it is, and
they.
It's not quite the same assaying, well, all it.
It's.
In a way, it's the same assaying all roads lead to god,
but it's more specific than that.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
It's much more specific that's what I was
thinking about, yeah yeah, it'sa more specific kind of
philosophy.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
It's very compatible with the new age.
But they do not.
Perennial wisdom followers donot believe in blending
religions.
They don't believe let's getrid of the religions and we'll
just have one religion, sincethey're all the same.
They don't believe in that atall because they believe the
different religious paths arethere for a reason and for a
purpose and different peopleneed different religions to
(49:38):
follow.
So they do not believe inblending the religions or doing
away with that which might be anew.
I'm not saying new agersbelieve it.
Some new agers might believethat.
But you know, perennial wisdompeople definitely don't believe
that.
They're against that.
And there's two major schools ofthought in perennial wisdom.
People definitely don't believethat, they're against that.
And there's two major schoolsof thought in perennial wisdom
(49:58):
thinking.
One is that we evolve, mankindis evolving to this higher
consciousness over time.
And then another school doesn'tbelieve that and rejects it and
in fact thinks that that's noteven perennial wisdom.
If you believe that, you're notreally following perennial
wisdom.
So these are two differentschools of thinking and the
(50:19):
evolutionary school is probablythe one maybe we're more
familiar with.
This is one a man named KenWilber follows.
Ken Wilber is a huge influencehe's not a Christian on Richard
Rohr.
Richard Rohr has quoted KenWilber and definitely follows
some of Ken Wilber's ideas.
I won't get into those ideasbut he follows some of them and
(50:42):
of course I've looked into KenWilber and Ken Wilber also has
been an influence on theemergence and the progressives.
In fact, rob Bell in VelvetElvis, his first big book.
In one of his footnotes hetells his readers to set three
months aside and read a book byKen Wilber Ken Wilber's book, a
(51:03):
Theory of Everything.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, ken Wilber is a follower of perennial wisdom.
He calls it integral.
He uses the word integral,integral philosophy, integral,
christianity, integral, and so.
So he's integrating all theviews, because you know, that's
a perennial view, the one truthat the bottom of everything.
(51:27):
So he uses the word integraland that's his thing, that's his
platform.
He's written a lot of books too.
Um, I I've read most of thetheory of everything and and
what I came away with with itwas that it was basically very
buddhist in outlook.
I used to be into buddhism,tibetan buddhism and zen
buddhism when I was in the newage, and I think that he's very
(51:50):
influenced by buddhism, but Idon't think he would call
himself a Buddhist.
I used to call him a BuddhistNew Ager, but he's really a
perennial follower with kind ofa Buddhist orientation, I would
say.
So this is the man who'sinfluenced some of the emergence
, like Rob Bell, and influencedRichard Rohr, and then you have
(52:11):
people influenced by RichardRohr writing the Enneagram books
for the church.
The Road Back to you isprobably the most popular
Enneagram book in the church andI've forgotten how many copies
it sold.
I'm terrible with numbers, butit has sold a lot, and Sacred
Enneagram sold 100,000 copies, Ithink by the first two years it
was out.
Sold 100,000 copies, I think bythe first two years it was out,
(52:33):
something like that.
And these books continue tosell.
So you have a tool there that'snot based on psychology, not
based on any valid studies atall.
In fact, any kind of studiesdone on it have been done by new
agers and they haven't beenpeer reviewed and there's no
(52:57):
evidence that they're they'recredible at all.
You know they.
They try to make it soundscientific but it's not.
So there's no scientific basisfor the Enneagram and there's
certainly no spiritual, noChristian basis for it.
You basically have a fraudulenttool from the new age in the
(53:17):
church that's flourishing in thechurch.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah oh wow.
This is looking.
It's making people, you know,look within themselves, I guess
to make them feel better, or tryto explain what they are,
instead of sticking to what youknow.
God's word says that you know,we're all sinners in need of a
savior yes, it's the, the.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
I think the um, self-interest is very, is
naturally very strong for us.
That's just that's.
That's a human thing, thatwe're interested in ourselves
and knowing ourselves.
So you know, you can see thatwith all these little silly
personality things you know,like what flower are you, or
what animal are you, or if youwere a car, what car would you
(54:03):
be?
You know which are, you know,okay, you do it for kind of a
fun thing, you don't take itseriously.
But I mean the fact that peopleare, you know, like to do those
kinds of things where we're,naturally we want to know about
ourselves and that's a naturalinterest.
But of course, first of all, theEnneagram can't really tell you
about yourself because it's notvalid.
So it's got what it tells youand what you think it's telling
(54:25):
you is all false.
And so you're going to putyourself in this false category.
It can't tell you anything youdon't already know.
And then, um, I can't tell youanything you don't already know,
uh, and then you, you, yes, youare, get more self-oriented.
And you know people who havegotten into the Enneagram and
then later rejected it have said, yeah, I was so caught up in
(54:46):
the Enneagram, you know I wasreading these books.
I was reading about myhusband's number, I was reading
about my children's number.
You know I wanted to know mybest friend's number and you
know I was trying to figureeverybody out.
You know she's a seven and nowhe's a four and that means this
and that.
And you can hear it on thepodcast that promote the
Enneagram They'll talk abouttheir number and they'll have
(55:07):
somebody on and they'll say so,what's your number?
And then the person will go onand on why are there seven?
And that's why they do this andwhy they do that.
So it really, yeah, it getsthis.
You get into this reallyquicksand of the self and you
just start sinking into the self.
This is exactly what happens inastrology, you know.
You get so into who you are inastrology, especially if you
(55:30):
have your chart done.
So you know your sun sign, yourrising sign, your moon sign,
all the signs your planets arein and what house they're in,
and you can really get into it.
Then you know like, oh wow, myson is in the seventh house and
it's in Sagittarius and my moonis in, you know, virgo, and it
means this and this is, and I'm,you know, aries rising or
whatever, and you you start likeseeing yourself this way and
(55:54):
you filter everything through itand it just it becomes kind of
a a, a central way that you'relooking at yourself and how
you're doing things and I think,more than maybe you realize, it
influences you.
More than you realize becauseyou don't really want to admit
it's influencing you that much.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Right, you're spending so much time studying
it yes, yes, and reading it.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
And I, you know, I've read things for people who got
into it.
Oh, I read this book so manytimes it's it's all battered.
You know this book is battered.
I've read it, you know, five orsix times.
This is something somechristian said, actually about a
book by on the enneagram, bydon riso and riso and Russ
Hudson, who are new agers.
This was a Christian.
Wow, this book just reallyopened her eyes and she read it
(56:41):
five or six times.
And and then another Christianwho'd been a path, who was a
pastor at the time, borrowed itfrom her she was a sister-in-law
, borrowed it from her and hegot into the Enneagram and is
promoting it and wrote a book.
I'll say who it is.
I can't remember his name, buthis book is called.
(57:03):
It's terrible because I wasactually on a debate with him on
a show called Unbelievable andthe book is called the Enneagram
Goes to Church.
I think it came out about ayear ago.
So I'm terrible with names.
(57:24):
I'm sorry, I don't remember.
It's okay, that's fine.
All these names are goingthrough my head and I'm like no,
I don't think that's it.
I don't think it's it.
I'm bound to say the wrong name, so I better not say anything.
It's a pretty basic name.
It's not a hard name toremember, but I can't remember
it.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
We see how it's taking our focus off of God and
who he is Right.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
Not to mention that the Bible tells us that we are
being conformed into the imageof Christ, right, so Christ is
our model.
It's not we're supposed to be agood seven or a better four.
You know, we're supposed to beconformed to the image of Christ
.
That's the sanctificationprocess.
(58:08):
So Christ is our model.
We look to Christ.
We look to God's word.
You know, god's word is tellingus how to live as a Christian
in this world, and that's whatmost, most of the letters from,
like you know, most of theepistles, are about that, or
many of them are.
And so we have, we have.
(58:31):
It's not like God has left usin the dark about what to do,
you know.
You know God's given us what weneed.
It's sufficient.
It's sufficient Not only whatwe need to know, like just to
know things but he's given usthe Holy spirit to enable us to
live according to his word.
(58:51):
Even though we mess up, we areable to yield to the holy spirit
if we want to right.
And so this we have thiswonderful resource.
With god's word, we have theholy spirit.
You know, we have everything weneed to grow as a christian as
god wants us to grow.
(59:11):
The enneagram it just is justgoing to take away from it and
it will even damage it.
It will even damage it and itis I believe it is damaging the
church.
It's already caused a lot ofpeople have left their church
over this, because their church,when given the facts, would
just ignore the facts or rejectthem or say, no, we're going to
(59:32):
use it anyway as a tool, it'sokay.
We're going to use it anyway asa tool, it's okay, we're going
to use it the right way, orsomething like that.
You know, they rationalized itand these people said I can't
stay under leadership that'sgoing to keep using something
they know is false.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
Yeah, so it's sad, but that's in a way, you know,
the way I thought about it isthat it has revealed who's
really who really wants tofollow the facts and the truth
and and who's willing tocompromise and rationalize, and
maybe that's a good thing toknow who those people are.
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Right, yeah, so it's so important, you know, to study
the Bible and to get into god'sword, to have the holy spirit
help us discern what is rightand wrong.
Well, thank you, marcia, forbeing on the show today.
Your, your tips were veryhelpful, and how helping us
learn more about how thesethings can get in divert us from
(01:00:31):
, you know, actually studyinggod's word and what God actually
says in his word.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Well, thank you for having me on and doing this
program, Duann.
I'm really glad that you'rehelping people to see you know
what the problems are with theseareas and how they are really
not supported in scripture andscripture, how scripture is so
much better than these man-basedpagan tools.
All right, Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
So you know, God is the ultimate good, he's our
standard for right and wrong,and the Bible is God's
revelation of himself to us.
So we should be filtering ourthinking and our morals through
the Bible.
Since Genesis 3, humanity hasbeen facing the same lies that
(01:01:30):
Satan told Adam and Eve back inthe garden.
No, satan hasn't created anynew lies, he's just changed the
way he's presented it to us.
And it's important for us, asChristians, to be discerning
about who we are, our identity,which should be in Christ.
So our discernment is going tocome from the Holy Spirit and
(01:01:52):
God's word.
So that's why it's so vitallyimportant for us, as believers,
to do our best to study and tryto understand God's word to help
us know God.
And when we hear or seesomething false, the Holy Spirit
is going to prompt us to knowfrom God's word what is true and
right.
So I always like to point toActs 17, 11, which talks about
(01:02:17):
the Bereans, and it says and thepeople of Berea were more
open-minded than those inThessalonica and they listened
eagerly to Paul's message.
They searched the scripturesday after day to see if Paul and
Silas were teaching the truth.
And I think this is somethingwe, as believers should be doing
also.
So, no matter what great teacheror minister or pastor that we
(01:02:43):
hear, we can listen to theirsermons and listen to do their
Bible studies, but we alwaysneed to compare what they say to
what the word of God says.
So we need to do our own studyabout those things that we are
learning.
So it's important, as believers, that we don't focus on
(01:03:04):
ourselves, but we focus on God,how we can glorify him and then
how we can love others, that wemay point others to Christ.
So I hope this episode washelpful to you to see how we
shouldn't be focusing onourselves or how to define
ourselves so much as how we canconform more to the image of God
(01:03:29):
as we live out our lives toglorify him and to love others.
So I hope this episode washelpful to you.
Until next time, remember Godis always good and he's always
faithful.
Thank you for listening to thepodcast.
Do me a favor by following thepodcast and leaving a review to
(01:03:53):
help spread the word.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the podcast where we
learn how to live for Christ inour daily lives.
I am Dwan, your host, and Iwould like to invite you on a
(00:32):
journey with me to explore wherewe strive to encourage you to
live for Christ faithfully byoffering guidance on how to
study the Bible, how tounderstand the Bible better and
how to remain faithful tohistoric Christianity in a
contemporary society.
In our world today, humanitydoes not have a problem about
(00:53):
thinking about ourselves.
We all long to establish sometype of identity, who we are.
How can we explain ourpersonality to others?
Today, we're going to talkabout zodiac signs and the
Enneagram.
Both of these seem to providepeople ways to describe who they
(01:16):
are as a person, but shouldChristians use these
descriptions provided by azodiac sign or Enneagram to
define who we are?
I'm grateful to share thisconversation that I had with
marcia montenegro.
This is a replay of aconversation that I had about
zodiac signs and the enneagram,so I hope you enjoy it all right
(01:51):
?
So before I jump into myconversation with marcia, let me
tell you a little bit about her.
Before trusting christ, marciamontenegro was a professional
astrologer and taught astrologyfor many years, as well as
having been involved prior tothat in Eastern and New Age
(02:14):
practices for many years.
Through her ministry, christianAnswers for the New Age, marsha
speaks around the country and onradio and writes on New Age and
occult topics.
She has a master's in religionfrom Southern Evangelical
(02:34):
Seminary, which is in Charlotte,north Carolina, and serves as a
missionary with FellowshipInternational Mission, which is
in Allentown, pennsylvania.
Based in Arlington, virginia,she is the mother of an adult
son and author of Spellbound,the Paranormal Seduction of
(02:57):
Today's Kids, which waspublished in 2006.
And she's also the co-author ofRichard War and the Enneagram
Secret, which was published in2020.
All right, let's jump into myconversation with Marsha.
Hi, marsha, thank you forcoming on the show today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It's really nice to be on your program, Dwan.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
All right.
So before we dive in the twotopics that we're going to go
over, could you tell us how youbecame a follower of Christ?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Oh, ok.
Well, yes, I was very involvedin the New Age for many years
and I was a professionalastrologer, very active
astrologerer, teaching it aswell, and I really thought I was
on a spiritual path.
I thought that that I wasprogressing spiritually and that
(03:57):
I would continue to progressspiritually.
So this, this kind of feeling,actually is a very good feeling.
You feel that you're doingthings right, that you feel like
you're learning things all thetime and you feel that that
helps you progress, and you knowit's.
It's sad to say, but you reallydo feel very, in most cases,
(04:20):
optimistic about your spiritualprogress.
Um, which is sad because ofcourse, you're you're not,
you're not even believing in theright God and you know much
less the right Jesus Christ, soyou're completely wrong, but you
just feel so good about whatyou're doing.
So it's a real deception, but Iunderstand the appeal of it and
(04:45):
I understand how it feels to beon that path and why people
like it, you know, and find itintriguing or find it.
They find it satisfying in someway.
So the Lord intervened I don'tknow how much detail you want me
to give, but he intervened overa period of time and it, I
(05:05):
guess, the best way to put it issupernaturally, because I
wasn't being told anything byanybody, or I didn't come across
something that I read that mademe start to question what I
believed.
But it was just theseimpressions.
I got First to go to a church.
I felt very compelled to go toa church and I resisted that for
(05:27):
months and I finally went to achurch and in the service at the
beginning I was sitting in theback because I was going to
leave early they started theservice, they played music,
everyone stood up and aprocession came from the back of
the church, a young boycarrying a cross, and as he
(05:48):
walked by me I felt thisoverwhelming waterfall of love
falling on me.
I knew it.
Now, this is a thing.
How did I know this?
I don't know, but I knew it wasfrom a personal God telling me
he loved me, and I had neverexperienced anything like that
(06:09):
at all.
Um, and so I ended up stayingfor the service and I ended up
going back and I was going thereevery week.
But I was not thinking at allthat I was going to become a
Christian, I just was goingthere.
It was sort of curiosity andkind of to see what would happen
(06:30):
.
And you know, I met a few peopleand then, while, and then
within a few weeks, I wasgetting this impression God
didn't like astrology.
And then I got the impressionhe wanted me to give it up,
which was really just.
You know, I that I did not wantto deal with that at all.
I was not, I was not for that.
(06:53):
I was like, no, this is goingtoo far.
You know, I'm I don't think I'mgoing to do that.
So I really resisted it.
But it was so clear that Godwanted me to give this up.
Now I didn't hear a voice oranything.
That's why I say impression,because it's the best word I can
come up with to describe it.
Of course, now, looking back onit, I mean I think it was the
(07:17):
Holy Spirit, but you know, atthe time I wouldn't have thought
that.
So I did, I actually gave it upand I mean I wasn't even a
Christian.
And see, I think this is thepart of my story that shows that
this was all the Lord, thatthis was not me or anybody else,
because I actually gave it upbefore I was a Christian oh so I
(07:41):
mean I, you know who would, whowould do that?
I mean I, I was, I was anastrologer and I was, you know,
I clients.
And so, anyway, I I that mylife really changed.
I gave it up and I startedreading um the bible.
And it was while I was reading,uh, a passage in Matthew 8,
(08:03):
that God opened my eyes and Isaw who Christ was.
And that was about a monthafter I gave astrology up.
It was right before Christmas,and that's when I was born again
, that's when I became abeliever and I knew that I was a
new person.
I finally saw who Christ reallywas.
(08:25):
I realized everything I had beendoing was wrong.
It was all all wrong, all youknow, all going in the wrong
direction.
And I did find out severalmonths later.
A young Christian man had beenpraying for me with a group at
his church.
Church, it was in an officewhere I was working part-time
(08:48):
and I was actually working therebecause I wasn't an astrologer.
The person who hired me wantedme to give him insights on the
employees based on their birthdata, but it was secret.
The people there did not knowthat.
Only he knew it and I knew it.
I don't think his secretaryeven knew it, so they just
thought I was there for somekind of I don't know.
(09:10):
You know, I was doing some kindof paperwork or something.
So that's why I was in thatoffice and that's where that
young Christian man was whoapparently felt led to pray for
me with his young adultfellowship group at his church,
and so they were praying for meall during that time.
So that's that's kind of asummary of what happened.
(09:32):
I did have um, I have it on mywebsite,
christiananswersforthenewageorg,and I've done some programs
where the whole program is justme telling the story.
You know 45 minutes or an hourof it.
You know extended story ofeverything.
So but that's it in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So I'm glad you mentioned your ministry.
Christian Answers for the NewAge.
Can you kind of tell us howthat got started?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Sure, yes.
After I became a Christian, Iwas very concerned.
What I was seeing around me inchurches was that people
Christians didn't reallyunderstand what the new age was.
They had these kind of funnyideas about it.
They tended to see it as thisreal extreme thing and actually
(10:24):
at that time it was beginning toget more mainstream and so I
was kind of alarmed because Ifelt, well, christians don't
really understand what this is.
I really feel I need to explainit to them and I really wanted
to go out there and like, rightaway, start talking, which is
probably good.
God didn't let me do thatbecause I mean, I was really a
new believer and who knows how Iwould have said it or whatever.
(10:48):
I made enough mistakes, as itwas once I got started.
But a few years later the Lordstarted opening doors for me to
share my story and to talk aboutthe new age, and I talked to
youth groups and I talked alittle bit in my church.
I talked to youth groups and Italked a little bit at my church
and eventually, after severalyears, that led to me feeling
(11:11):
the Lord really wanted me to gofull time with that.
This was the encouragement ofpeople in my church, my missions
pastor and other people, and atfirst I resisted because full
time ministry that was kind ofscary idea for me, you know.
So I wasn't really really onboard with it right away at all
(11:34):
and it took about a year for theLord working on me to see that
that's where he wanted me.
So that led me to going with amission agency, fellowship
International Mission.
So that led me to going with amission agency, fellowship
International Mission, which isbased in Allentown, pennsylvania
.
I'm in Virginia but they're inPennsylvania, and I served under
that mission agency throughthat mission agency, basically
(11:56):
as a missionary.
But my ministry is ChristianAnswers for the New Age and I've
been doing it full time since1998.
It's 24 years.
Oh, wow, yeah, it's a long time.
It full time since 1998.
It's 24 years.
Oh, wow, yeah, it's a long time.
I can't believe it's 24 years.
So that's how that got startedand and the Lord has very
graciously, um, sustained me and, you know, given me, uh,
(12:20):
partners in the ministry andit's it's been very, very
encouraging to see.
You know that the Lord isfaithful and you know what he
calls you to.
He will sustain you.
You just have, you have tocontinue to trust in him, though
, which is an ongoing right.
Yeah, thank for all Christiansyeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So I'm glad you mentioned as you were.
You were talking about how youstarted your ministry, how you
saw that new age and kind ofoccultic practices were coming
into the church.
So I know Christians know theybelieve in their zodiac sign or
they know their Enneagram number, ember, and these are not
(13:08):
biblical.
So kind of let's lay afoundation for like where these
things came from and whybelievers shouldn't be utilizing
these.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Okay, yes, um.
As far as astrology goes, uh,that is addressed in scripture.
Now I do want to say so peopleknow this there is no Hebrew
word for astrology, because theword astrology is a more modern
word, um, so that the way it'sdescribed in the bible, the
(13:36):
Hebrew uses differentterminology, like um, they'll
say dividing up the sky, becausethat's what astrologers did,
because they were, you know,measuring things and seeing
where the planets were, althoughthey thought they were stars,
they didn't even know what aplanet was then.
Um, so, uh, like dividing upthe sky, um, or bowing down to
(13:59):
the host of heaven.
So there's different languagethat's used in the Bible to
describe the practice ofastrology, but it's very much
present.
I think we see it reallystrongly in the book of Daniel,
(14:19):
where the king has his advisors,which include the astrologers,
who are sometimes called thechaldeans, and sometimes that
refers to the astrologers, andso you've got them in daniel and
you've got in isaiah 47.
That chapter is a condemnationof babylon and it's sorcery and
(14:41):
it includes the fact that itlistens to astrologers.
So God is condemning that andbasically he says you know, the
astrologers can't save you.
So astrology is addressedspecifically and in other ways.
Astrology is a form ofdivination, and divination
(15:01):
itself is mentioned throughoutthe Bible.
It's even in the New Testament,in Acts 16, where you have
(15:22):
delphi, who was a uh, what wewould we would call now maybe
like a psychic, who you know,sat on this special place where
there were all these gases,apparently, and went into these
trances and then, you know,spoke out stuff, um, and this
was very pagan, of course, andshe was said to have the spirit
(15:43):
of the python.
So this slave girl wasapparently kind of basically a
fortune teller giving fortunesto people and follows Paul
around and finally he turns toher and he actually cast a demon
out of her.
Now, that does not meaneveryone who does divination is
(16:05):
possessed, but I think what itshows us is that, at the root of
this, satan is at the root ofthis.
This is, this is something fromSatan.
It is not from God.
That's what that tells us.
So divination is condemned, anddivination is when you are
getting information from asupernatural source or and or
(16:27):
reading a hidden meaning insomething.
So you look at tarot cards, forexample, and you have all these
pictures and you believethere's a message there.
You believe there's a hiddenmeaning there.
Or astrology, you're looking atthe position of the planets and
the sun and the moon and you'resaying, well, you know venus is
(16:50):
in libra and, um, you know themoon is in pisces and that means
this, you know.
So you're you're giving aninterpretation that isn't
apparent.
That's not apparent to anybody.
That's something you have tolearn, special knowledge.
It's secret knowledge.
So that's where you come intothe aspect of the occult.
(17:10):
This is all part of the occult,and so astrology is a very
occult based practice condemnedby god.
Now, I know it's so popular inthe culture that and a lot of
christians sometimes think thatthere could be something to it
that maybe it's actuallyoriginally biblical, you know,
(17:31):
and it got maybe twisted bypaganism or something.
But that's not true, becausethere's no validity to astrology
, there's no scientific validityto it.
Uh, the position of the planetsin a certain zodiac sign even
that isn't, isn't accurate,because the way we measure it
(17:52):
isn't accurate anymore.
And so even your so-called sunsign, for when you were born,
has changed over the centuries,and it's changed enough that
you're probably not the sun signthat you think you are.
You're probably the sign beforeit in In many cases not all
(18:12):
cases, but many cases.
So there's been a shift in theactual position, the orientation
of the earth towards theseconstellations, and so it gets
really technical.
But it's not accurate and whenyou think about it, why would
the position of a planet haveany meaning in your life and why
(18:32):
would god want you to know theposition of a planet in order to
to understand yourself?
I mean, really think about itmakes no sense at all.
I mean the, and then you haveyou have something called the
gospel and the stars.
I don't want to get into that,but there are people who have
tried to correlate the 12 zodiacsigns with the gospel and
they've said that Adam and Evewere given the gospel through
(18:54):
the zodiac.
Of course, there's no biblicalbasis for this.
All of the scriptures that areused for this have been refuted.
I've done many, many Facebookposts on this and God would not
do that because that goesagainst his nature.
God doesn't ask us to look forhidden meanings, he doesn't give
us hidden meanings and things,and he doesn't want us to look
(19:17):
to creation for answers, andthat would be looking to
creation for the gospel.
The gospel is specialrevelation and that comes
through God's word.
And Jesus came and gave thegospel, and we know it from
God's word.
And Jesus came and gave thegospel, and we know it from
God's word.
We don't look to creation tofind a message from God.
(19:38):
So right away you've got aproblem there.
People who say that are notunderstanding God's character.
That goes against his nature.
So there's nothing that supportsthe idea of astrology and the
fact that you may think you, youfit your zodiac sign or you're
at maybe you had your chart doneby an astrologer and you
thought it was accurate.
Well, there are all kinds offactors that play into that,
(20:01):
that make you think that there'sconfirmation bias and there's
something called the barnumeffect and the effect um, these
are ways that things can soundvery true, or aspects of them
are true, and so you, you latchon to it and you start filtering
things through it and it'sreally I mean, psychologists
(20:22):
know about this, they know howit works to, um, trick you into
believing it and they have doneexperiments where they you know
they give, like a professor whogave supposedly something to all
the people in his class thatwas about who they were, based
on their birth date, and theyall read it and he said Okay,
(20:45):
how many of you think this, thisis accurate?
And most of them, you know so,97 or 98% of them thought it was
accurate.
And then he had them pass it tothe person sitting behind them
and they saw it was the samething.
They all got the exact samething.
They all had the exact samething, and I've seen this on
(21:06):
YouTube.
There's some duplications ofthis, not necessarily with
astrology, but with other things, with personality tests and
stuff.
And then and he'll say the samething to everybody and they'll
all say, oh yeah, that's me.
Oh, I can't believe how you youreally pegged me, you know.
So I watched a YouTube video ofthat not too long ago.
So that is out there.
(21:26):
We know that that's how itworks and so it's very
convincing.
And we can be deceived.
You know, we deceive ourselves.
We don't really see ourselvesthe way we are.
We kind of see ourselves theway we would like to see, like
the way we'd like to be.
We tend to, you know, want tosee ourselves a little better
than we probably are, and so wewe buy into these things that
that aren't accurate.
(21:46):
So that's astrology and ofcourse, it is an occult practice
and it will lead people intodeception and you know it will
lead unbelievers further awayfrom christ right, yeah, so I
guess, transitioning to theenneagram, yes, finding, yes,
true self, leading, leading toGod.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
So where did the Enneagram come from?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, the Enneagram is a little, actually a little
more.
The history of it is a littlemore complicated because it's
not as obvious what it is, andit's presented in the church as
a personality, you know tool, apersonality assessment tool, um,
and so it.
(22:35):
It looks.
For most people it looks kindof innocent or neutral anyway,
and maybe astrology they wouldbe like, oh no, I'm not going to
have anything to do with that.
I know that's wrong.
But the enneagram, oh hey, it'sjust a psychological tool.
You know, actually, it did notstart that way at all.
First of all, it's not ancient.
Unfortunately, all theEnneagram books say it's ancient
(22:58):
or they say that its originsare so murky, we don't really
know when it started.
But, you know, maybe Pythagorasstarted it, you know it was in
ancient Greece or maybeso-and-so, and then they throw
out all this stuff aspossibilities, none of which are
true.
So there's this idea that it'sancient and there's an idea that
it has Christian origins, whichhas also been promoted, sadly,
(23:21):
by a lot of Christian books anda lot of Christian Enneagram
teachers.
This was something I wasconstantly when it started
really getting into the churchand getting hold like around
2018.
And I was constantly posting.
You know the Enneagram isn'tancient.
The Enneagram has no Christian.
I have an article on my websitethe Enneagram has no Christian
(23:41):
origins.
That's the article is.
On that.
I was just kind of standing.
I felt like I was standing on arooftop and screaming.
Sometimes I was screaming intothe wind Like is anybody hearing
me?
So I was extremely passionateabout getting this out there
(24:03):
because I just couldn't standthese falsehoods.
You know just there's so muchfalsehood going on.
Falsehoods, you know justthere's so much falsehood going
on.
So it really started as a shapethat we know it today, in 1916,
which is only 106 years ago.
Right, yeah, and it started bya man named George Gurdjieff.
(24:26):
He was a spiritual.
He was like a mystic and aspiritual teacher.
He claimed to explore all thesereligions and he claimed to
travel around and talk todifferent religious leaders and
he had his own following, peoplewho followed his teachings.
He was teaching this veryesoteric stuff, kind of like
(24:49):
what you would hear today in thenew age that you don't really
know who you are, you don'treally know reality.
You're asleep, you have to wake, you have to have an awakening.
You know.
He called it awakening to thenew man, and so he had a program
for that and the Enneagram forhim was a picture of the
(25:10):
universe and he said this is,this is the universe.
You can fit all the laws of theuniverse into the enneagram.
It explains every.
In other words, the enneagramexplains everything.
Now this is sort of an occultidea too, that you get a diagram
or something and this is goingto explain reality, because you
know, you can start playingaround with it and reading all
(25:31):
kinds of things into it, whichis what he did.
He had the law of three and thelaw of seven.
That, he said, were illustratedmathematically by the Enneagram
and there are mathematicalcomponents to it.
The Enneagram is, by the way, Ishould say is a nine pointed
diagram, geometric figure,pointed diagram, geometric
(25:52):
figure.
So when you have nine points,you have nine is sort of like a
quote-unquote magic number andand and numbers because of the
way math works, and so you canhave something called casting
out nines, like eight and one isnine, seven and two is nine, um
, and if you add things up tonine, well, I'm not going to get
into that.
Anyway, there's all kinds ofthings you can do with it
(26:13):
mathematically.
So he was doing stuff like that, and he had a pupil named
Ouspensky and OuspenskyGurdjieff didn't write anything
about the Enneagram butOuspensky did, and Ouspensky
wrote about Gurdjieff's ideasand Ouspensky also had followers
(26:33):
.
And so there were peoplefollowing Gurdjieff's teachings
and Ouspensky's teachings whoknew about the Enneagram.
But it wasn't about apersonality thing.
It wasn't a personality thing.
It was this cosmic tool, youknow, for awakening to the new
self or whatever.
And so that's where it was andthey both died in the late 1940s
(26:56):
.
Then along comes Oscar Hichazoin the 1960s.
He's an occult teacher and hehas a school in Chile, in Eureka
, chile, and he starts teachingthe Enneagram.
There are different storiesabout how he came across it.
(27:16):
There's quite a few storiesabout how he came across it.
Some of them are very mystical,like an angel reveal it to him
in this mystical thing.
I did a Facebook post on that.
I read a story that he ran intosome followers of Gurdjieff in
a cafe where he was working andthat's how he found out about it
(27:37):
.
And then you, then you have theideas.
I've heard from more scholarlypeople that he probably read a
book by Uspensky.
He probably read one ofUspensky books which were
available at the time and sincehe was interested in in occult
kind of ideas.
It's not too surprising he,because I think he studied the
Kabbalah as well.
(27:57):
So he studied a lot ofdifferent things like that, and
that may be how he found outabout it and he started teaching
it at his school.
But he kind of put his own stampon it and he said these nine
points were ego fixations, andan ego fixation is who you
(28:17):
identify as, but it's not thereal you You're identifying as
that person because that is howyou were conditioned to think
and you were raised to believecertain things.
You had certain experiences inyour life and all of these
conditioned you to believecertain things and then that
made you who you think you are.
(28:38):
But that's your false self,that's not your true self.
And so you have to deconstructthis false self and find the
true essence.
He believed that everybody hada perfect, pure essence and we
all have this pure essence self.
You know, kind of I don't knowif he used the word divine, but
(29:01):
I I wouldn't be surprised if hedid the idea would be that it's
that it's divine and you havethis pure self and that's your
true self.
And so so you go through theego fixation to help you
discover that and realize allthese falsehoods about yourself.
So that's how he taught it, andhe had a pupil named Claudio
Naranjo.
Claudio Naranjo was a Chileanpsychiatrist and in case anybody
(29:26):
thinks that gives the Enneagramsome validity, let me tell you
what his specialty was.
Naranjo's specialty wasstudying the effects of
mind-altering drugs on the brain.
So, yeah, yes, that was histhing.
That was his thing, and hepartook.
He took the drugs himself forspiritual experiences.
(29:49):
He was very into this.
He was into shamanism.
Um, he did a long, longinterview that I watched um, I
mean, it must have been abouttwo hours long with a german
filmmaker.
A german guy interviewed himand the whole thing was about
naranjo's absolute love forshamanism and how he feels
(30:11):
that's the path he's the closestto.
And shamanism is really sorcery.
It involves the use ofmind-altering drugs, usually for
spirit contact or contact withthe dead.
The shaman is the mediatorbetween the tribe and the
spirits, and so the shaman isthe mediator and the healer.
(30:35):
So they did healing or they dohealing.
There's still shamans around.
They do healing and a lot of itis done through, supposedly,
this contact with a spirit world.
It could be that they could besaying it's the ancestors, they
could be saying it's some otherkind of spirits, could be animal
(30:56):
spirits, I mean all kinds ofthings, but the bottom line is
it's the spirit world and theshaman's the mediator and brings
the messages and the healing tothe people.
So that's what a shaman is andthis is what Naranjo was
fascinated with, and so that'swhere his interest was and he
(31:18):
believed in spirit contact, asdid Ichazo.
Ichazo did spirit contact aswell and Naranjo called his
spirits higher authorities andNaranjo called his spirits
higher authorities and hebelieved, you know, in getting
messages from them andcontacting them.
(31:38):
So this is where Naranjo wasspiritually and mentally.
He was into this whole spiritcontact thing.
He basically was kind of a newager.
He basically was kind of a newager and he was teaching
Enneagram that the nine pointsthere, which came to be called
types, the nine types alsorepresented this, this self that
(32:02):
you had to uncover.
You had to dismantle todiscover this true essence.
Very similar to Ichazo, todiscover this true essence.
Very similar to Ichazo.
He probably added more layers,psychological layers, to it and
it was introduced to the New Agevia Helen Palmer, a psychic,
and it got into the New Age big,big time.
(32:24):
She wrote on it.
A lot of New Agers picked up onit, started teaching it and
using it.
Um, it also got into thecatholic church, uh, through a
jesuit priest named bob oaks.
Uh, and he learned it fromnaranjo and he took it to a
seminary in chicago and so somecatholic priests learned,
(32:47):
learned it.
It was never endorsed orpromoted by the Catholic Church
and in fact, the first warningsagainst the Enneagram came from
Roman Catholics who hadencountered it, including one
who had been teaching it.
A Jesuit named Mitch Pacwalearned the Enneagram when Bob
(33:07):
Oaks took it to Loyola and hestarted teaching it and using it
.
And then he startedinvestigating it and discovered
wait a minute, this isn't, thisisn't, this isn't a good thing.
This doesn't have any originsin in psychology, it doesn't
have any Christian basis oranything.
He just, you know, so juststarted denouncing it.
(33:29):
Now, the reason I'm bringing upthe catholic angle is because
there are still catholics outthere who use it and there's
some books by catholics on theenneagram.
Um, but also I want to bring itup because one of the people
who learned it, apparently atloyola or in connection with
that, was richard war, and he'ssomebody I have to talk about in
(33:51):
a minute, because he plays amajor role in this Enneagram
business in the church.
So the Enneagram that was howit took shape.
Now, claudio Naranjo admitted ina video that he got most of the
information on the nine typesfrom automatic writing, and
automatic writing is a form ofspirit contact.
(34:11):
So he claims that is where alot of the information came from
.
Um, you know, from his higherauthorities and um, he
apparently thinks that's areally cool thing and you can
tell the video he thinks that,and the people that are sitting
there thinking it's a new ageprogram.
(34:31):
So you know, they're all on thesame page with it.
Um, this video is still onyoutube and I've posted it many
times.
I have links to it, I think, insome of my enneagram articles.
Other people have startedincorporating it now when they
wanted to expose the enneagram.
So this, so what you're dealingwith here, really is a tool
(34:52):
based on occult beliefs thatcomes primarily from two men who
did spirit contact, and theideas in it are completely
anti-Christian the idea offinding a true self, a pure
essence.
This is how New Agers talkabout it.
They'll talk about the essenceand the pure self.
Um, this, of course, is not achristian concept.
(35:16):
We don't have a purse, pureself or pure essence.
You know we have a fallen selfthat needs to be regenerated
through faith in christ.
And then we have the new selfin christ, which is a a you you
know from the new birth, fromfaith in Christ.
It's a supernatural act of God,it's not something we've done,
(35:36):
and the new self is beingsanctified by the Holy Spirit as
we grow in Christ, which is our, you know, lifelong process,
constantly growing in Christ,and that's all.
The Holy Spirit has a big rolein that.
So this is not like aself-improvement program or
something that we discoverthrough a chart or a diagram on
(35:59):
how we can improve ourselves.
But the way it got into thechurch was through Richard Rohr,
because he wrote a book on theEnneagram and around 1990, 1991,
then, I think, for a while,maybe just some Catholics maybe
used it because he is a, Ishould say Richard Rohr is a
Franciscan friar, so he is aRoman Catholic, and it didn't
(36:25):
really get much beyond thatuntil maybe around 2000, 2009 or
so 2010, because of richardroars association with what's
called what used to be calledthe emergence.
They're now basicallyprogressives.
The emergence were a movementin the 90s in the church where
(36:47):
the idea was to reach out to theunchurched generation.
So you did church differently,you know, you made church kind
of like a coffee house, or youknow you preached in casual, in
jeans and a black turtleneck orsomething, and at first it was
kind of a matter of style andthings like that.
But some of these emergentleaders were questioning a lot
(37:10):
of the basic doctrines ofChristianity and basically
drifted away from from basicsound doctrine and they became
progressives and they startedpromoting Enneagram at their
conferences.
And I believe it's because ofRichard Warr's influence.
I believe you know, I can't Idon't know for sure, but I
believe that's how they knewabout it, right, and so they I
(37:33):
guess you know he was a goodsalesman for it and they bought
into it and they startedpromoting it.
And I noticed that and that'swhen I wrote my first article on
the Enneagram, which was 2011.
And that article is still on mywebsite.
And then I just, you know, know, didn't really think about it
very much until 20.
Well, actually I startednoticing in 2013-2014, richard
(37:57):
Ward getting more of aninfluence in the church through
these progressives and I startedwarning about Richard Ward and
I think I can't remember now,but I think maybe that's why I
started in 2014 warning aboutthe Enneagram, again because of
Richard Rohr's association withit.
I noticed in 2016 this is thereally landmark year when the
(38:20):
Road Back to you came out bySuzanne Stabile and Ian Cron,
and it came from IVPInterversity Press, which had
always been perceived as anevangelical publisher and had
published a lot of very goodChristian material.
They came out with this book,the Road Back to you, which was
(38:44):
about the Enneagram and usingthe Enneagram.
Frankly, I was quite shocked.
First, I was shocked by thetitle, because I thought the
title did not sound like aChristian book.
I'm like the road back to you.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
It's like this is a mistake.
(39:06):
They made a horrendous typo intheir title, but no, no, they
didn't.
And the really crucial thing toknow here is that Suzanne
Stabile was mentored by RichardRohr for many years and Ian Cron
is an associate of Richard Rohr.
They both have spoken at hiscenter.
(39:27):
He runs a center and a livingschool in Albuquerque, new
Mexico, and they have spokenthere.
In fact, I talk about SuzanneStabile in my 2011 article on
the Enneagram because Idiscovered that she was this
supposed evangelical, or atleast a Christian, doing the
(39:48):
Enneagram.
So I wrote about her and Iwrote about her association with
Richard Rohr too.
So I was alarmed and I startedwarning about it.
And the following year thesacred Enneagram came out by
Chris Horowitz from Zondervan.
So here you've got another bigpublisher, and Zondervan of
(40:09):
course, publishes a lot ofBibles and you know, people know
it, I think mainly for that.
But they're a big Christianpublisher, or perceived that way
.
And even if they're owned bysecular houses because I think
at some point I can't rememberwhere these places were, you
know, bought out or came underthe ownership of a secular they
(40:32):
were still still presented aspublishers of Christian material
and Christian writers still,you know, wrote books that were
published by them.
So that was, that was theperception that they were for
the Christian market.
And so the sacred enneagramcomes out.
Now Chris Horace, who wrotethat book was also mentored by
(40:55):
Richard Ward.
So you've got the first twobooks in the church written by
people mentored by andassociated with Richard Ward.
Okay, so here's where I have tostop it, because people are
thinking okay, richard Ward is aFranciscan friar, maybe that's,
you know, maybe that's good,Maybe it's bad, but you know
what's the big deal?
Why do you keep saying his name?
(41:16):
Here's why Richard Rohr iscompletely heretical.
You cannot call him a Christian, richard Rohr.
You know, and I say this with,I can prove this a thousand
times over with his own wordsRichard Ward teaches a
completely different Jesus.
He teaches that the firstincarnation of Christ, okay,
(41:38):
separates Jesus and Christ.
First of all, the firstincarnation of Christ was
creation.
The second incarnation wasJesus, okay, so, yeah, wrap your
head around that.
It's like.
It's like, yeah, you know,everybody goes wait a minute,
what, what did you say?
This is what he teaches.
(41:58):
So, here you go, you've gotright away, you've got.
Oh man, that's really wild.
You know, that's not biblical.
So jesus, yes, jesus was thesecond incarnation of this
christ that he calls theuniversal Christ.
But then, after theresurrection, the universal
Christ is, is out there as it'slike this power, this, this
(42:22):
energy flow that's pulling allcreation towards a point of
perfection.
Jesus sort of pointed to theuniversal Christ.
And, yeah, he points to theuniversal Christ.
But you're not.
It's not about believing inJesus, it's about the universal
Christ.
Yeah, and also, just to add,you know, insult to injury.
(42:48):
Jesus did not die for sins onthe cross, according to Richard
Rohr, because God is notconcerned about personal sins.
He's concerned about corporatesins.
You know pollution companies,that that pollute companies that
you know aren't just to people.
You know the whole socialjustice kind of thing although I
(43:10):
don't think he uses that term,but he's's, you know, his whole
thing is.
You know, corporate sin and andall these evil things that
governments do and corporationsdo.
That's what God is concernedwith.
And so Jesus did not die forsins.
He was a victim of the RomanEmpire because he was.
You know, he challenged.
(43:32):
He challenged people in powerand they didn't like that, and
so that's one reason that he waskilled.
Also, because it shows his love.
It shows that the cross is likean example for war, of what he
(43:54):
calls the cruciform shape ofreality, that it's all about
suffering.
It's through suffering that youcome to truth.
And I mean you know this isjust one of his many
philosophies.
He can go on and on on thattrack for a while.
He's very prolific.
Richard Roar has written many,many books.
He has a blog, cacorg.
(44:16):
You can find all kinds If youwant to look up atonement on his
blog and see what he says aboutthe atonement you can read it
for yourself or what he saysabout the universal Christ and
what he says about Jesus.
He's very prolific, I mean.
So nobody has any excuse fornot knowing what Richard Rohr
(44:36):
believes, because it only takesfive or 10 minutes of your time
and you can find out his ideasand you can find out that they
are not biblical very fast onthree of his books on my website
, including the universal Christ, which is probably the most
important book to know about,because that is where he talks
(44:57):
about who Jesus and theuniversal Christ are and you and
you can really see what his,his beliefs are there.
But he's done a lot of alsovideos, a lot of talks on
YouTube, a lot of interviewsI've I have listened to.
I mean, honestly, I'm I'm sureI've listened to at least 200
hours of Richard Rohr at least.
(45:19):
Probably over the years, maybeeven more, um.
So there's a lot out there, alot of material.
Now this is the man whoseinfluence has brought the
Enneagram into the church.
Is he a?
pre-annualist yes, and I'm gladyou asked that because I had I
hadn't brought that up.
He is because a lot of people,um wonder well, where is what is
(45:41):
richard war?
He's, these beliefs aren't evenroman catholic beliefs, and
they're not, of course they're.
They're not even.
You can't even just call themthat.
Um, he is a follower of what'scalled perennial wisdom or the
perennial philosophy, and he hasthat on his blog too.
He's very open about that.
And the perennial philosophy andI am not an expert on it this
(46:05):
is something I heard about yearsago but I didn't explore.
I kind of knew vaguely what itwas.
I knew it was out there.
It sounded very new age to me,vaguely what it was.
I knew it was out there.
It sounded very new age to me,and yet I knew it was something
different from the new age, butI didn't really explore it.
But I started exploring itbecause of Richard Rohr and the
Enneagram, and so I've done alot of reading on it since and
(46:26):
learned some things.
And this is basically thisphilosophy.
I think it really started inthe 1800s, possibly the late
1700s, and it's kind of amovement.
It's like these differentpeople who have these ideas that
all the world's religions comefrom the same source.
(46:46):
They all go back to the sametruth, to the same God and even
though they look very differentoutwardly, in essence they're
the same.
They're the same God and eventhough they look very different
outwardly, in essence they'rethe same.
They're the same thing.
They have the same message.
But you have to uncover thatmessage.
You have to go on this journeyto kind of this inner journey to
(47:09):
uncover the perennial message.
So it's not really like areligion where you go somewhere
and you learn about it and yousay, oh, okay, I agree with that
, you know.
I mean, yeah, you can readabout it and say, yeah, I agree
with that.
But then you kind of have to goon your own to this kind of
personal discovery of it.
That's my understanding of howit works and kind of like, when
(47:30):
you see it, you've kind ofawakened to this truth of
perennial wisdom and you see itand it's like, oh, wow, now I
see what's behind all religions.
In fact, there's a book ofessays on perennial wisdom by
followers of that that I read.
I read some of this book.
(47:51):
It's called the UnderlyingReligion underlying religion,
and so anybody who really wantsto read it from a primary source
, read it by people who believeit themselves, which I realize
is probably not most people, butcookie people have to read it,
um, and so it's very eye-opening.
You know, I read some of theessays by the more well-known
people who promoted thisphilosophy, um and it, and so it
(48:14):
was kind of it was overseas alot.
There was, like some hindufollowers and muslim followers,
um, of perennial wisdom, andjewish followers, and there are
people who call themselveschristians, who are followers to
the perennial wisdom and theycontinue to identify with their
religion.
So, you know, the hindu willstill say I'm a hindu and the
(48:35):
jew will still say, well, I'm ajew, I'm even a rabbi.
There's even rabbis who believethis.
But they might say they mightuse the phrase tradition, so
they might say, um, I follow thehindu tradition, um.
Or they might say I am achristian in the christian
wisdom tradition, so they mightuse the word with the word
(48:55):
wisdom is used a lot with thisum, so that's what it is, and
they.
It's not quite the same assaying, well, all it.
It's.
In a way, it's the same assaying all roads lead to god,
but it's more specific than that.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
It's much more specific that's what I was
thinking about, yeah yeah, it'sa more specific kind of
philosophy.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
It's very compatible with the new age.
But they do not.
Perennial wisdom followers donot believe in blending
religions.
They don't believe let's getrid of the religions and we'll
just have one religion, sincethey're all the same.
They don't believe in that atall because they believe the
different religious paths arethere for a reason and for a
purpose and different peopleneed different religions to
(49:38):
follow.
So they do not believe inblending the religions or doing
away with that which might be anew.
I'm not saying new agersbelieve it.
Some new agers might believethat.
But you know, perennial wisdompeople definitely don't believe
that.
They're against that.
And there's two major schools ofthought in perennial wisdom.
People definitely don't believethat, they're against that.
And there's two major schoolsof thought in perennial wisdom
(49:58):
thinking.
One is that we evolve, mankindis evolving to this higher
consciousness over time.
And then another school doesn'tbelieve that and rejects it and
in fact thinks that that's noteven perennial wisdom.
If you believe that, you're notreally following perennial
wisdom.
So these are two differentschools of thinking and the
(50:19):
evolutionary school is probablythe one maybe we're more
familiar with.
This is one a man named KenWilber follows.
Ken Wilber is a huge influencehe's not a Christian on Richard
Rohr.
Richard Rohr has quoted KenWilber and definitely follows
some of Ken Wilber's ideas.
I won't get into those ideasbut he follows some of them and
(50:42):
of course I've looked into KenWilber and Ken Wilber also has
been an influence on theemergence and the progressives.
In fact, rob Bell in VelvetElvis, his first big book.
In one of his footnotes hetells his readers to set three
months aside and read a book byKen Wilber Ken Wilber's book, a
(51:03):
Theory of Everything.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, ken Wilber is a follower of perennial wisdom.
He calls it integral.
He uses the word integral,integral philosophy, integral,
christianity, integral, and so.
So he's integrating all theviews, because you know, that's
a perennial view, the one truthat the bottom of everything.
(51:27):
So he uses the word integraland that's his thing, that's his
platform.
He's written a lot of books too.
Um, I I've read most of thetheory of everything and and
what I came away with with itwas that it was basically very
buddhist in outlook.
I used to be into buddhism,tibetan buddhism and zen
buddhism when I was in the newage, and I think that he's very
(51:50):
influenced by buddhism, but Idon't think he would call
himself a Buddhist.
I used to call him a BuddhistNew Ager, but he's really a
perennial follower with kind ofa Buddhist orientation, I would
say.
So this is the man who'sinfluenced some of the emergence
, like Rob Bell, and influencedRichard Rohr, and then you have
(52:11):
people influenced by RichardRohr writing the Enneagram books
for the church.
The Road Back to you isprobably the most popular
Enneagram book in the church andI've forgotten how many copies
it sold.
I'm terrible with numbers, butit has sold a lot, and Sacred
Enneagram sold 100,000 copies, Ithink by the first two years it
was out.
Sold 100,000 copies, I think bythe first two years it was out,
(52:33):
something like that.
And these books continue tosell.
So you have a tool there that'snot based on psychology, not
based on any valid studies atall.
In fact, any kind of studiesdone on it have been done by new
agers and they haven't beenpeer reviewed and there's no
(52:57):
evidence that they're they'recredible at all.
You know they.
They try to make it soundscientific but it's not.
So there's no scientific basisfor the Enneagram and there's
certainly no spiritual, noChristian basis for it.
You basically have a fraudulenttool from the new age in the
(53:17):
church that's flourishing in thechurch.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah oh wow.
This is looking.
It's making people, you know,look within themselves, I guess
to make them feel better, or tryto explain what they are,
instead of sticking to what youknow.
God's word says that you know,we're all sinners in need of a
savior yes, it's the, the.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
I think the um, self-interest is very, is
naturally very strong for us.
That's just that's.
That's a human thing, thatwe're interested in ourselves
and knowing ourselves.
So you know, you can see thatwith all these little silly
personality things you know,like what flower are you, or
what animal are you, or if youwere a car, what car would you
(54:03):
be?
You know which are, you know,okay, you do it for kind of a
fun thing, you don't take itseriously.
But I mean the fact that peopleare, you know, like to do those
kinds of things where we're,naturally we want to know about
ourselves and that's a naturalinterest.
But of course, first of all, theEnneagram can't really tell you
about yourself because it's notvalid.
So it's got what it tells youand what you think it's telling
(54:25):
you is all false.
And so you're going to putyourself in this false category.
It can't tell you anything youdon't already know.
And then, um, I can't tell youanything you don't already know,
uh, and then you, you, yes, youare, get more self-oriented.
And you know people who havegotten into the Enneagram and
then later rejected it have said, yeah, I was so caught up in
(54:46):
the Enneagram, you know I wasreading these books.
I was reading about myhusband's number, I was reading
about my children's number.
You know I wanted to know mybest friend's number and you
know I was trying to figureeverybody out.
You know she's a seven and nowhe's a four and that means this
and that.
And you can hear it on thepodcast that promote the
Enneagram They'll talk abouttheir number and they'll have
(55:07):
somebody on and they'll say so,what's your number?
And then the person will go onand on why are there seven?
And that's why they do this andwhy they do that.
So it really, yeah, it getsthis.
You get into this reallyquicksand of the self and you
just start sinking into the self.
This is exactly what happens inastrology, you know.
You get so into who you are inastrology, especially if you
(55:30):
have your chart done.
So you know your sun sign, yourrising sign, your moon sign,
all the signs your planets arein and what house they're in,
and you can really get into it.
Then you know like, oh wow, myson is in the seventh house and
it's in Sagittarius and my moonis in, you know, virgo, and it
means this and this is, and I'm,you know, aries rising or
whatever, and you you start likeseeing yourself this way and
(55:54):
you filter everything through itand it just it becomes kind of
a a, a central way that you'relooking at yourself and how
you're doing things and I think,more than maybe you realize, it
influences you.
More than you realize becauseyou don't really want to admit
it's influencing you that much.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Right, you're spending so much time studying
it yes, yes, and reading it.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
And I, you know, I've read things for people who got
into it.
Oh, I read this book so manytimes it's it's all battered.
You know this book is battered.
I've read it, you know, five orsix times.
This is something somechristian said, actually about a
book by on the enneagram, bydon riso and riso and Russ
Hudson, who are new agers.
This was a Christian.
Wow, this book just reallyopened her eyes and she read it
(56:41):
five or six times.
And and then another Christianwho'd been a path, who was a
pastor at the time, borrowed itfrom her she was a sister-in-law
, borrowed it from her and hegot into the Enneagram and is
promoting it and wrote a book.
I'll say who it is.
I can't remember his name, buthis book is called.
(57:03):
It's terrible because I wasactually on a debate with him on
a show called Unbelievable andthe book is called the Enneagram
Goes to Church.
I think it came out about ayear ago.
So I'm terrible with names.
(57:24):
I'm sorry, I don't remember.
It's okay, that's fine.
All these names are goingthrough my head and I'm like no,
I don't think that's it.
I don't think it's it.
I'm bound to say the wrong name, so I better not say anything.
It's a pretty basic name.
It's not a hard name toremember, but I can't remember
it.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
We see how it's taking our focus off of God and
who he is Right.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
Not to mention that the Bible tells us that we are
being conformed into the imageof Christ, right, so Christ is
our model.
It's not we're supposed to be agood seven or a better four.
You know, we're supposed to beconformed to the image of Christ
.
That's the sanctificationprocess.
(58:08):
So Christ is our model.
We look to Christ.
We look to God's word.
You know, god's word is tellingus how to live as a Christian
in this world, and that's whatmost, most of the letters from,
like you know, most of theepistles, are about that, or
many of them are.
And so we have, we have.
(58:31):
It's not like God has left usin the dark about what to do,
you know.
You know God's given us what weneed.
It's sufficient.
It's sufficient Not only whatwe need to know, like just to
know things but he's given usthe Holy spirit to enable us to
live according to his word.
(58:51):
Even though we mess up, we areable to yield to the holy spirit
if we want to right.
And so this we have thiswonderful resource.
With god's word, we have theholy spirit.
You know, we have everything weneed to grow as a christian as
god wants us to grow.
(59:11):
The enneagram it just is justgoing to take away from it and
it will even damage it.
It will even damage it and itis I believe it is damaging the
church.
It's already caused a lot ofpeople have left their church
over this, because their church,when given the facts, would
just ignore the facts or rejectthem or say, no, we're going to
(59:32):
use it anyway as a tool, it'sokay.
We're going to use it anyway asa tool, it's okay, we're going
to use it the right way, orsomething like that.
You know, they rationalized itand these people said I can't
stay under leadership that'sgoing to keep using something
they know is false.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
Yeah, so it's sad, but that's in a way, you know,
the way I thought about it isthat it has revealed who's
really who really wants tofollow the facts and the truth
and and who's willing tocompromise and rationalize, and
maybe that's a good thing toknow who those people are.
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Right, yeah, so it's so important, you know, to study
the Bible and to get into god'sword, to have the holy spirit
help us discern what is rightand wrong.
Well, thank you, marcia, forbeing on the show today.
Your, your tips were veryhelpful, and how helping us
learn more about how thesethings can get in divert us from
(01:00:31):
, you know, actually studyinggod's word and what God actually
says in his word.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Well, thank you for having me on and doing this
program, Duann.
I'm really glad that you'rehelping people to see you know
what the problems are with theseareas and how they are really
not supported in scripture andscripture, how scripture is so
much better than these man-basedpagan tools.
All right, Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
So you know, God is the ultimate good, he's our
standard for right and wrong,and the Bible is God's
revelation of himself to us.
So we should be filtering ourthinking and our morals through
the Bible.
Since Genesis 3, humanity hasbeen facing the same lies that
(01:01:30):
Satan told Adam and Eve back inthe garden.
No, satan hasn't created anynew lies, he's just changed the
way he's presented it to us.
And it's important for us, asChristians, to be discerning
about who we are, our identity,which should be in Christ.
So our discernment is going tocome from the Holy Spirit and
(01:01:52):
God's word.
So that's why it's so vitallyimportant for us, as believers,
to do our best to study and tryto understand God's word to help
us know God.
And when we hear or seesomething false, the Holy Spirit
is going to prompt us to knowfrom God's word what is true and
right.
So I always like to point toActs 17, 11, which talks about
(01:02:17):
the Bereans, and it says and thepeople of Berea were more
open-minded than those inThessalonica and they listened
eagerly to Paul's message.
They searched the scripturesday after day to see if Paul and
Silas were teaching the truth.
And I think this is somethingwe, as believers should be doing
also.
So, no matter what great teacheror minister or pastor that we
(01:02:43):
hear, we can listen to theirsermons and listen to do their
Bible studies, but we alwaysneed to compare what they say to
what the word of God says.
So we need to do our own studyabout those things that we are
learning.
So it's important, as believers, that we don't focus on
(01:03:04):
ourselves, but we focus on God,how we can glorify him and then
how we can love others, that wemay point others to Christ.
So I hope this episode washelpful to you to see how we
shouldn't be focusing onourselves or how to define
ourselves so much as how we canconform more to the image of God
(01:03:29):
as we live out our lives toglorify him and to love others.
So I hope this episode washelpful to you.
Until next time, remember Godis always good and he's always
faithful.
Thank you for listening to thepodcast.
Do me a favor by following thepodcast and leaving a review to
(01:03:53):
help spread the word.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
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