August 24, 2024 • 45 mins
What if everything you thought you knew about heaven was wrong? Jean Jones joins us to address and correct widespread misconceptions about heaven. Is it true that good people automatically go to heaven? Do humans become angels? Will heaven be filled with endless harp-strumming? Jean skillfully debunks these myths by grounding her explanations in biblical passages. She reassures us that heaven is not a place of endless monotony but one filled with profound recognition and connection with our loved ones. By aligning our understanding with scripture, Jean offers comfort and clarity, helping us to see heaven in a new, hopeful light.
Connect with Jean
https://www.jeanejones.net/
DISCOVERING THE BIBLE SERIES
Discovering Wisdom in Proverbs
Discovering Good News in John
Discovering Jesus in the Old Testament
Discovering Hope in the Psalms
Discovering the Joy in Philippians
By Jean E. Jones, Pam Farrel, and Karla Dornacher
Immortal: How the Fear of Death Drives Us and What We Can Do About It By Clay Jones
Do you want to learn how to study the Bible? Check out the YouTube channel Faithfullyliven youtube.com/@faithfullyliven
Do you want to read about how to live faithfully? Check out the blog http://lyfe102.org
Get a free Road Map to get started learning how to study the Bible https://mailchi.mp/88f9c9405da0/bible-study-road-map
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the Podcast where we
learn how to live for Christ inour daily lives.
I'm Dwan, your host, and Iwould like to invite you on a
journey with me to explore andlearn how to be a faithful
follower of Christ.
Hey, everyone, welcome toFaithfully Living, the podcast
(00:31):
where we strive to encourage youto live for Christ faithfully
by offering guidance on how tostudy the Bible, how to
understand the Bible better andhow to remain faithful to
historic Christianity in acontemporary society.
So heaven is a place where we,as believers, you know we look
forward to, but how much do wereally know about it?
What does the Bible tell us?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
about it.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So I am so happy to share this conversation that I
had with Jean Jones.
We talk about heaven and learnto have a right view of heaven
by letting the Bible be ourguide.
But before we get started withour conversation with Jean, let
me tell you a little bit aboutJean.
Jean E Jones is co-author ofDiscovering Wisdom in Proverbs,
(01:18):
discovering Good News in Johnand more in the award-winning
Discovering the Bible series.
She blogs at jeanjonesnet.
Jean is a member of Women inApologetics.
She's been a contributingwriter for crosswalkcom and
she's published in Today'sChristian Woman and Home Life.
(01:41):
She's happily married to herhigh school sweetheart, clay,
who teaches Christianapologetics at Talbot Seminary.
They live in California andonce were foster parents to
three preteen and teen girls.
Jean enjoys rooster claws andcentury eggs in Asia.
(02:02):
All right, let's dive intotoday's episode.
Hi Jean, welcome to the show.
Hi Flan, thank you for havingme.
Well, I'm glad to have you hereand I'm glad to talk about our
topic on heaven.
But before we get started onthat, could you tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Sure, I was raised in a non-Christian home.
Neither of my parents wereChristians.
When I was around 14, I startedreading the New Testament
because I wanted to know.
I believed in God, even thoughmy dad especially didn't.
My mom was more agnostic, and Iwanted to know how to get to
(02:45):
heaven.
That was the big thing.
I had heard there was a heavenand a hell and I thought, oh my
gosh, I'm going to go to hell.
What do I do?
And different people weretelling me different things.
So I got a hold of a Bible,finally, and a New Testament and
started reading it from thebeginning.
And by the time I got to theGospel of John, I understood
(03:06):
enough of what it said about theneed to come to Christ, and I
pray to accept Christ whilereading the Gospel of John.
So I became a Christian.
My parents still were notChristians.
My dad at first was verydisappointed in me that I would
do such a thing, but then, notlong after, I met Clay.
He was my high schoolsweetheart and we eventually got
(03:30):
married and he taught at TalbotSeminary for many years on the
subject of apologetics.
And my dad has since come toknow the Lord, which is amazing,
and so have my two siblings.
My mom died young.
She knew the gospel.
(03:51):
I don't know for sure whetheror not she ever turned her life
over to Christ or not.
She knew what it meant, but Ijust don't know what she did on
that.
So I've been a Christian forquite a while now, what she did
on that.
So I've been a Christian forquite a while now and I've
written five devotionals with myfriends Pam Farrell and Carla
(04:11):
Dorniker.
I write the Bible study portionand the sidebars.
They each contribute adevotional to go with each
chapter, so it's from threeentirely different personalities
.
And then Carla is also theartist and she does scripture
art, which is so helpful forpeople because she'll put a
(04:32):
verse in an illustration so thatif you want to color it not
everybody does, but if you wantto, it's by the time you're done
it's memorized.
So it's a really super helpfulway for people to, to learn to,
to memorize without much effort.
So done five of those so farall right.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
What are the names of them?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
okay.
The first one is discoveringhope in the psalms.
The second is discovering joyin philippians.
The third is discovering jesusin the old.
The third is discovering Jesusin the Old Testament.
The fourth is discovering goodnews in John, and the fifth is
discovering wisdom in Proverbs.
Every one of them has somethingabout apologetics in it as well
.
Discovering hope in the Psalmstalks about how to pray when
(05:22):
life doesn't make sense, whenyou expected God to do one thing
and he did something else.
Discovering Joy in Philippiansgives the evidence for the
resurrection and uses theminimal facts argument.
The Gospel of John is theevidence that John gives for
Jesus being the Messiah.
Discovering Jesus in the OldTestament is 12 ways that the
(05:45):
Old Testament prophesies aboutJesus and how Jesus fulfills
those prophecies.
And then discovering wisdom inProverbs also has a section on
inerrancy and why we trust theBible.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh wow.
Those are packed full ofscripture and insights Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yes, yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I will put those in the show notes so everybody can
check those out.
Wonderful, yeah.
So I'm excited about our topic.
Like I said, we're going totalk about heaven and I think
it's good to start with areliable source.
So what does the Bible sayabout heaven, and how should it
shape our understanding of it?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Great question, because there is a lot of
misinformation out there.
The Bible tells us that in John3, 16, that God so loved the
world that he gave his onlybegotten son, that whosoever
believes on him should notperish but will have eternal
life.
So eternal life is what theBible talks about.
(06:51):
It's a gift from God that heoffers to us.
That gift of eternal life isdescribed by Paul as being a
glorious inheritance.
A glorious inheritance so richthat it makes the problems of
this world seem a slight andmomentary.
So it's going to be really,really wonderful.
(07:15):
But a lot of people don't knowthat because they've heard a lot
of false things about heaven.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
So that kind of leads us into our next question is
like we always get wrong ideasor misinterpretations of the
Bible.
So what are what would be somemisconceptions that we we'd have
about, you know, heaven.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I got all my first ideas about heaven from the
Sunday comics.
So I had that.
It was like, okay, it's got tobe white people become angels.
They have little tiny wingsthat don't really look like they
could fly anywhere.
I also was.
I read a lot of Mark Twain andMark Twain had a lot of stuff in
there about oh, it's going tobe so boring, you know.
(07:59):
And Huckleberry Finn, yes, the,yeah, Miss Watson, saying I'm
just going to strum your carpsall the day long, but I find
nine, nine misconceptions aboutheaven.
So one of the misconceptionsthat people have is that all
good people go to heaven whenthey die.
(08:20):
And most people considerthemselves to be good people.
So they figure if heaven reallyexists, I'm a good person, I'll
go to heaven, and they don'tpursue anything past that.
But Romans 3.23 tells us thatall have sinned and fall short
of the glory of God.
All that means every person hassinned and fall short of the
(08:41):
glory of God.
And then, just a few chapterslater, in Romans 6.23, it tells
us that the wages of sin isdeath, but the free gift of God
is eternal life in Christ Jesus,our Lord.
So it's not that good people goto heaven, it's that God has
given a gift that those who turnto him through Jesus Christ and
(09:02):
through belief in both God andthrough Jesus Christ then
receive eternal life.
So it's the forgiven who get togo to heaven, not the good
Right.
Another misconception is thatpeople become angels when they
die, and there's one related tothat, and that is that you've
(09:23):
heard that one, yeah, yeah, andone related to it is that people
will all have halos and wingsin heaven.
Now Charles Dickens in his bookthe Little Curiosity Shot wrote
that a little girl comes up tolittle male who's dying and says
everyone says that by morningyou're going to be an angel,
(09:43):
meaning you're about to die, andthen you'll be in heaven and
you'll be an angel.
So this idea that people willbecome angels is really, really
widespread.
But that's not what the Bibleteaches.
It is a misinterpretation of aparticular verse In Matthew 22,
(10:03):
30,.
Jesus said for in theresurrection people neither
marry nor given in marriage, butare like angels in heaven.
So people think, oh, they mustbecome angels.
But it doesn't say that.
It says they'll be like angelsin heaven.
And what it's actually talkingabout.
If we look at the parallelpassage in Luke, it's talking
(10:23):
about they'll never heaven.
And what it's actually talkingabout.
If we look at the parallelpassage in Luke, it's talking
about they'll never die.
And since they won't die, theywon't need to procreate.
And since they don't need toprocreate, they don't need to
marry.
And let me give you theparallel passage in Luke.
It's in chapter 20, verses 34to 36.
Jesus says the sons of this agemarry and are given in marriage
(10:46):
, but those who are consideredworthy to attain to that age and
to the resurrection from thedead neither marry nor are given
in marriage or they cannot dieanymore, because they are equal
to angels and are sons of God,sons of God being sons of the
resurrection.
So angels were created beings.
They were all created beforethe earth was created, job tells
(11:09):
us.
And so they never needed toprocreate, so they don't marry.
So that's what Jesus wastalking about.
Okay, and that, oh, and theBible never says that the, those
who go to heaven will havehalos or wings either.
The idea of wings comes fromthe idea of oh, you become an
angel when you go to heaven.
(11:30):
The halos actually came fromthe Middle Ages.
The artists at that time wouldput halos around the faces of
important people.
So when they painted Jesus orthe apostles or Mary, they
always put halos around them.
But they also put halos.
If they did a painting of adonor, they made a halo around
(11:54):
the donor.
It was just we want you to knowwho the important people are in
this particular scene.
That's all it was.
But it came to be thought oh,so people must have halos.
It was also a way to depictwhen a face shown.
Remember Moses's face shownwhen he met with God and in the
transfiguration, jesus shown aswell, and so a halo is a way to
(12:19):
depict those two things as well.
Another another misconception isthat people in heaven strum
harps and sing nonstop.
That's what Huckleberry Finntaught.
Of course, that's amisinterpretation of a passage
in Revelation that talks aboutthe four living creatures.
(12:40):
These four living creatureshave six wings and eyes all over
them, so it talks about themsinging nonstop.
It says they never cease to sayholy, holy, holy is the Lord,
God Almighty, but that doesn'tmean they sing it in a loop.
The book of Revelation alsotalks about them doing other
things.
They gather bowls of prayersand they take things to other
(13:05):
creatures and they do quite afew other things.
But that it definitely isn'tsomething that the scripture
says that people are ever goingto do.
On and on and on.
A fifth misconception is thatheaven is in the clouds.
All the comic pages that I readon Sunday portrayed heavens as
(13:26):
being in clouds.
Yeah, you've seen them too.
Yeah, people are sitting thereon a little cloud, strumming
hearts.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Even in movies they depict it like in the clouds.
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Now this is a conflation of the three
different ways that thescripture uses the word heaven.
The first way that thescripture uses the word heaven
is simply to mean the sky, likeheaven gave rain.
That just means the sky.
The second way is to mean thephysical cosmos, as in Genesis
(14:02):
1-1, where it says in thebeginning God created the
heavens and the earth.
That's the physical cosmos.
And then the third way that itmeans it is the unseen spiritual
realm.
For instance, whenever it talksabout the Lord's throne is in
heaven, it's talking about theunseen spiritual realm.
So those are the threedifferent uses of the word
(14:24):
heaven that we translate as oh.
There's a couple of othermisconceptions that are really,
really awful.
The sixth one is that spouseswon't know each other in heaven,
and the seventh is that allpeople in heaven won't know each
other.
I had a woman who was a recentwidow write me just in despair
(14:49):
saying I just read a blog thatsays I won't know my husband.
What am I supposed to do?
What is this true?
And it is not true.
It is absolutely not true andit takes away one of the biggest
comforts that we receive in theBible.
First, it's a misunderstanding.
(15:12):
Uh, from the same verse welooked at earlier, that, uh, the
people in the resurrection willneither marriage, married nor
given in, or ah, let me startthat one over.
They will neither marry nor begiven in marriage, and that
again, that's only talking about.
You won't be married becauseyou won't be procreating.
But in Luke 20, jesus says this.
(15:37):
This is verses 37 to 38.
He says but that the dead areraised.
Even Moses showed in thepassage about the bush where he
calls the Lord the God ofAbraham and the God of Isaac and
the God of Jacob.
Now, he is not God of the dead,but of the living and all live
to him.
Notice, he knows them, he knowsthem.
He knows Abraham, isaac andJacob who are currently with the
(16:01):
Lord.
This mainly comes from amisunderstanding of Isaiah 65,
17, which reads for behold, Icreate new heavens and a new
earth, and the former thingswill not be remembered or come
to mind.
That's where people get thisscary thought.
But number one, people are notformer things, they're eternal
(16:26):
beings and that's an importantdistinction to make.
And number two, the verse rightbefore gives us an explanation
of what it's meant.
The verse right before, verse16, god says the former troubles
are forgotten and are hiddenfrom my eyes my eyes.
So he's talking about thingsbeing forgotten by God.
(16:50):
Now in the Old Testament, whenthe scripture talks about God
remembering someone's sin, itmeans that he's about to act on
it and discipline or punish thatsin.
And when it says that heforgets, then that means he is
(17:11):
no longer going to act on it.
It's been disciplined and takencare of and now he's not going
to remember it anymore.
That does not mean that he'slost his omniscience.
Every time a pastor preaches onDavid and Bathsheba, god
doesn't say oh my gosh, I didn'tknow David committed adultery.
(17:31):
Right, oh my gosh, I didn'tknow David committed adultery.
It just means he forgave Davidand didn't have him die.
He's not going to be punishedfurther for it.
There were a lot ofconsequences in his day.
He's not going to be punishedfurther for it.
That's what it's talking about.
It's not talking about a lotloss of omniscience there.
(18:01):
Notice that in the gospels wesee that Peter recognized Moses
and Elijah at thetransfiguration.
Revelation 14, 13 tells us thatthe blessed are the dead who
die in the Lord, that they mayrest from their labors, for
their deeds Follow them.
How can their deeds follow them, if they if follow them, if
their past hasn't beenremembered.
And my favorite, 1Thessalonians 4.17, we will be
(18:22):
caught up together and we'll bewith the Lord forever.
We'll be together, we'll betogether.
Another misconception, just twomore.
Another misconception is thatheaven is all white.
Now, I thought that, based onthe comics, they always depicted
heaven as being white, andmovies do that too.
(18:44):
Right, yeah, in fact, when theApostle John was taken to the
heavenly realm, what he saw werejewel tones, not all light.
Elsewhere in the book ofRevelation it speaks of fruit
trees and a river and such, andI just don't think that the God
(19:07):
who made peacocks andhummingbirds and apple trees and
persimmons has forgotten how tobe creative.
You know that's not going to be.
And the final misconception isthat people in heaven will gaze
up on God nonstop, forever andever, as their only occupation.
(19:27):
That came from the Middle Agesas well.
The scripture says instead inRevelation 22.5 that our
occupation will be reigning withChrist.
That's our occupation.
So nine misconceptions, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Those are interesting how we, you know, misconstrue
scripture and then take thingsfrom, I don't know, I can't say
legend, but especially about thepainters with the halos.
They thought, oh, people willhave halos just because the
painter highlighted the person'sface.
That's the way it's going to be.
(20:06):
You know, in heaven, how wekind of draw things from there
and have misconceptions thataren't really true, which is
interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
My husband, clay, likes to call it extreme
makeover.
Metaphysical addition thatSatan is behind all these
misconceptions to make peoplethink they don't want to go to
heaven.
It's not attractive, so don'thave anything to do with God.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, Well, he's done a good job with it.
If people think we're going tobe singing all the time or just
constantly looking at God allthe time, but yeah, those were
very helpful.
So I know how sometimes peoplehave like near-death experiences
or like accounts that they'vegone to heaven.
(20:53):
How do these kind of like alignwith you know what's in the
Bible and how can they sometimeslike diverge from like what we
know in Christian teaching,Right?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
right, there are a lot of them.
Well, one way that they alignis with John 8, 51.
Jesus said truly, truly, I sayto you, if anyone keeps my word,
he will never see death.
So when Christians have anear-death experience, well, let
(21:27):
me just start with Christians.
When they have a near-deathexperience, they often see their
souls leaving their physicalbodies.
They don't feel dead.
They can many reports hoveringover their bodies and seeing the
body lying there, and that fitsvery well with what Jesus said
(21:50):
there he will never see death.
What's common between mostnear-death experiences is a
lucid death, where the soulseparates and they see the body.
Most have that an awareness ofcircumstances.
There's one documented case, infact, where a woman left her
(22:13):
body, watched the doctors andthen floated out of the hospital
and saw a tennis shoe on awindowsill.
When the doctors brought herback and she woke up, she
described accurately what hadbeen happening in the operating
(22:33):
room and told them about thetennis shoe.
And they went and looked andthere was a tennis shoe there.
So that was really interesting.
A lot of NDEs have a tunnelexperience, a life review.
People report seeing mysticalbeings and they often have a
reluctance to return.
(22:54):
Some actually go to hell,though, and then they don't have
a reluctance to return at all.
That's a really scary one.
The Case for a Heaven, in fact,by Lee Strobel mentions one
such person who went to hell,described it as awful and cried
out to the Lord to save him.
(23:15):
And he was.
He was taken away from thedemons and came back to life and
became a Christian after that.
The other way where things oftendiffer is that people tend to
see what matches their ownreligious experience.
So Christians may encounterJesus, they may encounter God.
(23:40):
Many encounter lights.
A Hindu person may encounter abeing they consider to be
Krishna.
It's important that we don'tbase our theology on near-death
experiences, because in somecases it's later been found out
that somebody has lied.
(24:01):
That happens sometimes.
Sometimes people draw erroneousconclusions from what they see.
They may see a bright light andgo, oh, that's God, or oh,
that's Krishna, or oh, that'swhoever.
And the other problem is thatSatan and his minions, the Bible
tells us, often disguisethemselves as angels of light.
(24:23):
So we don't know who they'rereally encountering at every
time.
So we need to turn to the Bibleto find out what it says about
heaven.
We need to turn to the Bible tofind out what it says about
heaven.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, that's how we can go down that road of
misconceptions when we thinkabout it, those near-death
experiences.
So what would be like somepractical implications Does the
(24:59):
belief in heaven?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
for Christians and on how we live here on earth, like
, how should it shape ourpriorities and our values?
Yes, well, for one thing, jesussaid that we should seek
rewards in heaven.
He said that we should not justbe gathering rewards on earth,
where moth and rust destroy, butrather we should seek rewards
in heaven.
And then he lists a whole bunchof things that he says will be
(25:20):
greatly rewarded in heaven.
And then the rest of the NewTestament also has more things,
things such as giving to thepoor, praying in secret, fasting
in secret, loving your enemies.
These are all things that Godsays will be rewarded in heaven.
So if that's the case, then weneed to re-aim our lives and
(25:41):
prioritize those things thatwill be rewarded in heaven
rather than those things thatare temporary and that we can't
take with us.
The other big thing that havinga robust view of the kingdom of
heaven does for us is it helpsus when we go through times of
(26:03):
loss.
All of us are going to facehardships, losses, grief, and if
we have a robust view of heaven, then we can be assured that
we're going to be.
There's a better place coming.
All those losses will be backwith our loved ones.
(26:24):
All those losses will be madeup for, we'll receive a reward
and we'll be alive for eternityin a much better place and in a
body that no longer has failingjoints and other issues.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, that hope for something better to come.
Yes something much better, yeah, so what does the Bible say
about living forever, likehaving eternal life?
What would it be like?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, actually, this is the funny thing Eternal life
comes in three stages.
We start out spiritually dead,according to the scripture, and
we start out as slaves to sin.
That's how we are born andthat's how we initially live.
(27:17):
But then there are three stages.
The first is the born againstage.
The second is the intermediatestage, and that occurs when our
bodies die but our souls do not.
And then the final stage, whenour bodies are resurrected.
Ephesians 2, 1 to 2 says and youwere dead in the trespasses and
(27:39):
sins in which you once walked.
So we start out being dead,spiritually dead, and unable to
not sin.
In fact, the scripture saysthat we're slaves to sin and
we're not good enough.
No one is good enough forheaven.
Stage one of eternal life iswhen we are born again.
It begins at spiritual rebirthand it occurs here on this earth
(28:03):
.
We're made alive, we're born ofGod, we're adopted by him to be
his child and we are finallyable to not sin.
John 5.24 reads truly, truly Isay whoever hears my word and
believes him, who sent me, haseternal life.
He does not come into judgment,but has passed from death to
(28:26):
life.
So Jesus has just describedthis, as those who believe in
him, then pass from death tolife.
Ephesians 2, 4 to 5 tells itlike this but God, being rich in
mercy because of the great lovewith which he loved us even
when we were dead in ourtrespasses, made us alive
(28:50):
together with Christ.
And then Romans 8, 10,.
If Christ is in you, though,the body is dead because of sin,
yet the spirit is alive becauseof righteousness.
So earlier I mentioned that wehave a glorious inheritance in
saints that Ephesians told usabout.
(29:11):
Here's the first facet of itwe're made spiritually alive Now
.
The second stage of eternal lifeis called the intermediate
state, and that begins at thedeath of the physical body.
The soul, or spirit, leaves thephysical body when it dies.
Ecclesiastes 12 7 says the dustreturns to the earth as it was
(29:35):
and the spirit returns to Godwho gave it.
Now where does the spirit go?
It goes to the present state ofeither hell or heaven.
Revelation 6-9 describes Johnwriting this.
He said I saw under the altarthe souls of those who had been
(29:58):
slain for the word of God.
So we actually see the souls ofpeople who, their bodies, died
on earth.
They were slain, but there theyare in heaven and at the
present state of heaven, andthat's what John sees In 2
Corinthians 5, 6 to 9,.
Paul wrote While we are at homein the body, we are away from
(30:19):
the Lord, and we would rather beaway from the body and at home
with the Lord.
So his self, his true self, isnot the physical body.
His true self is the soul thatinhabits the body.
And when the physical body dies, that true self goes to be
either in the present state ofhell or the present state of
(30:41):
heaven, and the present state ofheaven he calls being at home
with the Lord.
The best example of the twodifferences is in a narrative
that Jesus told about the richman and Lazarus.
The rich man ate everything hewanted and the poor man, lazarus
(31:02):
, was out by the gate beggingfor scraps, and they both die.
And then the narrative picks uphere in Luke 16, 22 to 24.
It reads the poor man died andwas carried by the angels to
Abraham's side.
The rich man also died and wasburied, and in Hades, being in
(31:24):
torment, he lifted up his eyesand saw Abraham far off and
Lazarus at his side, and hecalled out Father Abraham, have
mercy on me and send Lazarus todip the end of his finger in
water and cool my tongue, for Iam in anguish in this flame.
Notice they know each other, bythe way.
The rich man knows who Abrahamis and he knows who Lazarus is,
(31:48):
and Abraham knows who both ofthem are.
Then it continues in verses 25to 26.
But Abraham said Child,remember that you in your
lifetime received your goodthings and Lazarus, in like
manner, bad things.
But now he is comforted hereand you are in anguish.
(32:08):
And besides all this, betweenus and you a great chasm has
been fixed in order that thosewho would pass from here to you
may not be able, and none maycross from there to us.
So there are two destinationsthe rich man went to the place
of punishment and Lazarus wentto the place of comfort.
(32:31):
Now in the Bible there'sdifferent words used for these
things, and it's less clear inthe Old Testament than it is in
the New Testament.
In the Old Testament often thewords Sheol and Hades are just
used for the realm of debt andthere isn't the sense that
there's two places, one ofcomfort, one of punishment.
(32:52):
The place of comfort is alsocalled heaven or paradise, and
the place of punishment is alsocalled Hades, abaddon, the pit
hell, the abyss and the place oftorment.
So all of those are used.
(33:13):
You can see that Hades is usedinterchangeably, sometimes to
mean just the realm of the deadand sometimes to mean the place
of punishment.
So there we have a really goodexample of the separation.
So what do people experience inthis intermediate state?
They experience the presence ofthe Lord.
(33:36):
They experienced the presenceof the Lord.
Second Corinthians 5.8 says wewould rather be away from the
body and at home with the Lord.
And they experienced fellowship.
Lazarus had fellowship withAbraham and Moses had fellowship
with Elijah.
At this time we also receiveanother facet of our glorious
(33:57):
inheritance, and this is one Ithink everybody longs for will
be perfected, oh yeah, will beperfected.
So hebrews 11 names off all thesaints from the old testament,
or not all of them, but many ofthem and then it talks about
them like this in uh, chapter 12, 22 to 23 uh, the writer, the
(34:19):
author, is speaking to thosehe's writing to and who have
become Christians, and he writesto them and says but you have
come to the city of the livingGod and to the spirits of the
righteous made perfect.
Finally, no more temptations inthe place of comfort, no more
weak flesh that's constantlylusting after all kinds of
(34:43):
things of the world, the worldwe won't even be a part of.
We will no longer sin, we willbe perfected, and that takes us
to the final state.
This begins after the generalresurrection.
There's going to be a judgment.
Everybody will come before theLord.
(35:06):
Those who have not receivedJesus as paying for their sins
will face the judgment.
Those who have, thankfullywon't face that judgment, but
will face a judgment for theirworks.
For the purpose of rewards, godis creating a new heavens and
an earth.
Then he's going to resurrectthe bodies and our souls will
(35:28):
rejoin.
But to these resurrected bodiesresurrected bodies that have
never sinned or been sinnedagainst, the scripture describes
them as glorified.
It describes them as powerful,as imperishable.
First Corinthians 15 tells uswhat is sown is perishable,
(35:51):
meaning the body that dies hasperished, obviously, but what is
raised is imperishable.
What is sown is or, excuse me,it is sown in dishonor.
It is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness.
It is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body.
It is raised as a spiritualbody.
(36:14):
The first man, adam, was fromthe earth, a man of dust.
The second man, jesus, is fromheaven.
As was the man of dust, so alsoare those who are of dust, and
as is the man of heaven, so alsoare those who are of heaven.
So the resurrection occurs.
(36:34):
We're reunited with our souls,are reunited with now, a
glorious, resurrected body thatis imperishable, glorious and
powerful, just like jesus's.
The scripture also tells usthat uh will be resplendent like
the stars, the sun, or jesus atthe transfiguration will be
(36:56):
renowned because our deeds willfollow us, will be rewarded.
The scripture says that thosewho have built on the foundation
that Christ has laid willreceive a reward, will be
rewarded.
That's just amazing.
In 1 Peter 1.7, we're told thatthe tested genuineness of your
(37:20):
faith, more precious than goldthat perishes though it is
tested by fire, may be found toresult in praise and glory and
honor at the revelation of JesusChrist.
So the tested genuineness ofyour faith means so.
You've been going throughhardships here on earth and you
stuck it out and you werefaithful.
Because everybody's faith hasto be tested Right and when,
(37:43):
yeah, and when we go throughthose hardships and losses with
faith.
That proves our faith genuineto other people and to the
heavenly creatures.
God already knows, but itproves it.
Faithful to others, but itproves it faithful to others.
And then Revelation 22 tells usthat in our resurrected bodies
we will reign forever and everwith Christ.
(38:06):
So that's a pretty amazinginheritance awaiting us.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Oh yeah, that's interesting about the different
stages.
How it starts here on earth ishow it starts here on earth, and
it kind of progresses as wemove toward living with God
forever.
So I think that's prettyinteresting how that kind of
shapes it out.
Yes, and then especially thescriptures that correlate with
(38:36):
it also.
Yes, yeah, correlate with italso.
Yes, yeah, so how does ourbelief in heaven kind of impact
things such as prayer andworship and evangelism?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Oh, that's another good question.
For evangelism, it means thatwe really want to talk to our
loved ones who don't know Christ.
We really want to talk to themand give them the chance to hear
the gospel.
As to prayer, as you may know,my husband has stage four cancer
right now and because of that,one of the things that we've
(39:17):
been praying is Philippians 4, 4to 7.
And that begins with rejoice inthe Lord.
Always, and again, I sayrejoice.
And it goes on and talks abouthow to come to God with your
request for Thanksgiving.
Well, the reason that we canrejoice in the Lord, even in
these really tough times, isbecause we know heaven awaits
(39:40):
and so instead of praying oh God, how could this happen?
We can pray, lord.
I rejoice in the Lord always.
I rejoice in you.
Here are all the wonderfulthings you've done, here are the
things you promised to come,and I can be thankful for those
things.
And so we can pray with peaceand assurance.
And that's a really, reallywonderful way that it changes
(40:06):
prayer.
And then also, with worship, wecan truly magnify the Lord,
even when we're in the midst ofhard times and suffering,
because we know that God intendsto give us an inheritance that
will make all the sufferings andproblems of this world seem
slight and momentary.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, it kind of goes back to that hope that we have
you know for better things tocome.
Yes, all right, yes, all right.
So, to wrap up, whatencouragement can you offer
believers who want to livefaithfully for christ?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
number one I would say read the bible and do what
it says.
There are a lot of hopes in thebible, a lot of hopes for just
for while we're on this lifehere on earth, but also hope for
what's coming.
So read the Bible and do whatit says, because it will change
you and bring you to a placewhere you'll have more hope,
(41:09):
more joy and more peace evenwhile you're here.
And, of course, if you wanthelp in any of that, I do have
Bible studies that will help youto learn more from the Bible
and then also live for eternity.
We have a glorious, gloriousinheritance awaiting us.
We're going to be madespiritually alive upon being
(41:34):
born again.
We're going to be perfected,we're going to be resurrected,
we're going to be resplendent,we're going to be renowned and
rewarded.
I'll leave you with this.
Second Corinthians 4, 17 to 18tells us, for this light,
momentary affliction ispreparing for us an eternal
(41:55):
weight of glory, beyond allcomparison, as we look not to
the things that are seen, but tothe things that are unseen, for
the things that are seen aretransient, but the things that
are unseen are eternal.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yeah, amen to that.
I can't add anything else tothat.
Well, jean, thank you so muchfor being on the show and giving
us a better understanding ofheaven.
And hopefully it will spur uson to, you know, dive into the
word a little bit more, to havea little bit more clarity.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
So I hope you enjoyed this conversation that I had
with Jean on heaven.
Hopefully it gave you someinsight into what heaven is like
.
I know I am going to have to goback and do a little bit more
studying on heaven itself andwhat it's like.
I will put Jean's books in theshow notes so you can take a
(42:56):
look at those in the show notes,so you can take a look at those
.
But before I sign off, therewas an additional question that
I had for Jean that I wanted toinclude that I thought might be
helpful to understanding thedifferent stages of eternal life
.
So here's that question.
I did have one question for you, though you know how you were
talking about the um, thedifferent stages of heaven in
(43:20):
that intermediate stage, yeah,where you say we, when we die,
it's that part, what happens,and maybe this I have to study
more about, like what happens inthe end time.
But what happens if we don'tdie and there's no, we don't go
through that intermediate stage,or oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, paul writes about that.
He says not everybody will dieIf, when the Lord comes back,
there'll be some people who arestill on the earth that haven't
died yet.
And it says they will instantlybe changed and they will be
their resurrected bodies.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Will their current bodies will change into the
resurrected bodies instantly,which is pretty amazing Right,
so we all won't go through allof those stages of eternal life,
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
The people that are alive at the time that Jesus
comes back.
They won't.
They'll miss out on theintermediate stage.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Okay, I was thinking about that when you were going
through.
I said what about the peoplewho don't die you?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
know Clay wrote a book called Immortal how the
Fear of Death Drives Us and whatto Do About it, and it's all
about why not to be afraid ofdeath, and he's got a lot in
there on that, All right.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
So this wraps up our episode.
So if this was helpful to you,please share with your family
and friends.
And until next time, rememberGod is always good and he's
always faithful.
Thank you for listening to thepodcast.
Do me a favor by following thepodcast and leaving a review to
(45:02):
help spread the word.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the Podcast where we
learn how to live for Christ inour daily lives.
I'm Dwan, your host, and Iwould like to invite you on a
journey with me to explore andlearn how to be a faithful
follower of Christ.
Hey, everyone, welcome toFaithfully Living, the podcast
(00:31):
where we strive to encourage youto live for Christ faithfully
by offering guidance on how tostudy the Bible, how to
understand the Bible better andhow to remain faithful to
historic Christianity in acontemporary society.
So heaven is a place where we,as believers, you know we look
forward to, but how much do wereally know about it?
What does the Bible tell us?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
about it.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So I am so happy to share this conversation that I
had with Jean Jones.
We talk about heaven and learnto have a right view of heaven
by letting the Bible be ourguide.
But before we get started withour conversation with Jean, let
me tell you a little bit aboutJean.
Jean E Jones is co-author ofDiscovering Wisdom in Proverbs,
(01:18):
discovering Good News in Johnand more in the award-winning
Discovering the Bible series.
She blogs at jeanjonesnet.
Jean is a member of Women inApologetics.
She's been a contributingwriter for crosswalkcom and
she's published in Today'sChristian Woman and Home Life.
(01:41):
She's happily married to herhigh school sweetheart, clay,
who teaches Christianapologetics at Talbot Seminary.
They live in California andonce were foster parents to
three preteen and teen girls.
Jean enjoys rooster claws andcentury eggs in Asia.
(02:02):
All right, let's dive intotoday's episode.
Hi Jean, welcome to the show.
Hi Flan, thank you for havingme.
Well, I'm glad to have you hereand I'm glad to talk about our
topic on heaven.
But before we get started onthat, could you tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Sure, I was raised in a non-Christian home.
Neither of my parents wereChristians.
When I was around 14, I startedreading the New Testament
because I wanted to know.
I believed in God, even thoughmy dad especially didn't.
My mom was more agnostic, and Iwanted to know how to get to
(02:45):
heaven.
That was the big thing.
I had heard there was a heavenand a hell and I thought, oh my
gosh, I'm going to go to hell.
What do I do?
And different people weretelling me different things.
So I got a hold of a Bible,finally, and a New Testament and
started reading it from thebeginning.
And by the time I got to theGospel of John, I understood
(03:06):
enough of what it said about theneed to come to Christ, and I
pray to accept Christ whilereading the Gospel of John.
So I became a Christian.
My parents still were notChristians.
My dad at first was verydisappointed in me that I would
do such a thing, but then, notlong after, I met Clay.
He was my high schoolsweetheart and we eventually got
(03:30):
married and he taught at TalbotSeminary for many years on the
subject of apologetics.
And my dad has since come toknow the Lord, which is amazing,
and so have my two siblings.
My mom died young.
She knew the gospel.
(03:51):
I don't know for sure whetheror not she ever turned her life
over to Christ or not.
She knew what it meant, but Ijust don't know what she did on
that.
So I've been a Christian forquite a while now, what she did
on that.
So I've been a Christian forquite a while now and I've
written five devotionals with myfriends Pam Farrell and Carla
(04:11):
Dorniker.
I write the Bible study portionand the sidebars.
They each contribute adevotional to go with each
chapter, so it's from threeentirely different personalities
.
And then Carla is also theartist and she does scripture
art, which is so helpful forpeople because she'll put a
(04:32):
verse in an illustration so thatif you want to color it not
everybody does, but if you wantto, it's by the time you're done
it's memorized.
So it's a really super helpfulway for people to, to learn to,
to memorize without much effort.
So done five of those so farall right.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
What are the names of them?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
okay.
The first one is discoveringhope in the psalms.
The second is discovering joyin philippians.
The third is discovering jesusin the old.
The third is discovering Jesusin the Old Testament.
The fourth is discovering goodnews in John, and the fifth is
discovering wisdom in Proverbs.
Every one of them has somethingabout apologetics in it as well
.
Discovering hope in the Psalmstalks about how to pray when
(05:22):
life doesn't make sense, whenyou expected God to do one thing
and he did something else.
Discovering Joy in Philippiansgives the evidence for the
resurrection and uses theminimal facts argument.
The Gospel of John is theevidence that John gives for
Jesus being the Messiah.
Discovering Jesus in the OldTestament is 12 ways that the
(05:45):
Old Testament prophesies aboutJesus and how Jesus fulfills
those prophecies.
And then discovering wisdom inProverbs also has a section on
inerrancy and why we trust theBible.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh wow.
Those are packed full ofscripture and insights Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yes, yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I will put those in the show notes so everybody can
check those out.
Wonderful, yeah.
So I'm excited about our topic.
Like I said, we're going totalk about heaven and I think
it's good to start with areliable source.
So what does the Bible sayabout heaven, and how should it
shape our understanding of it?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Great question, because there is a lot of
misinformation out there.
The Bible tells us that in John3, 16, that God so loved the
world that he gave his onlybegotten son, that whosoever
believes on him should notperish but will have eternal
life.
So eternal life is what theBible talks about.
(06:51):
It's a gift from God that heoffers to us.
That gift of eternal life isdescribed by Paul as being a
glorious inheritance.
A glorious inheritance so richthat it makes the problems of
this world seem a slight andmomentary.
So it's going to be really,really wonderful.
(07:15):
But a lot of people don't knowthat because they've heard a lot
of false things about heaven.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
So that kind of leads us into our next question is
like we always get wrong ideasor misinterpretations of the
Bible.
So what are what would be somemisconceptions that we we'd have
about, you know, heaven.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I got all my first ideas about heaven from the
Sunday comics.
So I had that.
It was like, okay, it's got tobe white people become angels.
They have little tiny wingsthat don't really look like they
could fly anywhere.
I also was.
I read a lot of Mark Twain andMark Twain had a lot of stuff in
there about oh, it's going tobe so boring, you know.
(07:59):
And Huckleberry Finn, yes, the,yeah, Miss Watson, saying I'm
just going to strum your carpsall the day long, but I find
nine, nine misconceptions aboutheaven.
So one of the misconceptionsthat people have is that all
good people go to heaven whenthey die.
(08:20):
And most people considerthemselves to be good people.
So they figure if heaven reallyexists, I'm a good person, I'll
go to heaven, and they don'tpursue anything past that.
But Romans 3.23 tells us thatall have sinned and fall short
of the glory of God.
All that means every person hassinned and fall short of the
(08:41):
glory of God.
And then, just a few chapterslater, in Romans 6.23, it tells
us that the wages of sin isdeath, but the free gift of God
is eternal life in Christ Jesus,our Lord.
So it's not that good people goto heaven, it's that God has
given a gift that those who turnto him through Jesus Christ and
(09:02):
through belief in both God andthrough Jesus Christ then
receive eternal life.
So it's the forgiven who get togo to heaven, not the good
Right.
Another misconception is thatpeople become angels when they
die, and there's one related tothat, and that is that you've
(09:23):
heard that one, yeah, yeah, andone related to it is that people
will all have halos and wingsin heaven.
Now Charles Dickens in his bookthe Little Curiosity Shot wrote
that a little girl comes up tolittle male who's dying and says
everyone says that by morningyou're going to be an angel,
(09:43):
meaning you're about to die, andthen you'll be in heaven and
you'll be an angel.
So this idea that people willbecome angels is really, really
widespread.
But that's not what the Bibleteaches.
It is a misinterpretation of aparticular verse In Matthew 22,
(10:03):
30,.
Jesus said for in theresurrection people neither
marry nor given in marriage, butare like angels in heaven.
So people think, oh, they mustbecome angels.
But it doesn't say that.
It says they'll be like angelsin heaven.
And what it's actually talkingabout.
If we look at the parallelpassage in Luke, it's talking
(10:23):
about they'll never heaven.
And what it's actually talkingabout.
If we look at the parallelpassage in Luke, it's talking
about they'll never die.
And since they won't die, theywon't need to procreate.
And since they don't need toprocreate, they don't need to
marry.
And let me give you theparallel passage in Luke.
It's in chapter 20, verses 34to 36.
Jesus says the sons of this agemarry and are given in marriage
(10:46):
, but those who are consideredworthy to attain to that age and
to the resurrection from thedead neither marry nor are given
in marriage or they cannot dieanymore, because they are equal
to angels and are sons of God,sons of God being sons of the
resurrection.
So angels were created beings.
They were all created beforethe earth was created, job tells
(11:09):
us.
And so they never needed toprocreate, so they don't marry.
So that's what Jesus wastalking about.
Okay, and that, oh, and theBible never says that the, those
who go to heaven will havehalos or wings either.
The idea of wings comes fromthe idea of oh, you become an
angel when you go to heaven.
(11:30):
The halos actually came fromthe Middle Ages.
The artists at that time wouldput halos around the faces of
important people.
So when they painted Jesus orthe apostles or Mary, they
always put halos around them.
But they also put halos.
If they did a painting of adonor, they made a halo around
(11:54):
the donor.
It was just we want you to knowwho the important people are in
this particular scene.
That's all it was.
But it came to be thought oh,so people must have halos.
It was also a way to depictwhen a face shown.
Remember Moses's face shownwhen he met with God and in the
transfiguration, jesus shown aswell, and so a halo is a way to
(12:19):
depict those two things as well.
Another another misconception isthat people in heaven strum
harps and sing nonstop.
That's what Huckleberry Finntaught.
Of course, that's amisinterpretation of a passage
in Revelation that talks aboutthe four living creatures.
(12:40):
These four living creatureshave six wings and eyes all over
them, so it talks about themsinging nonstop.
It says they never cease to sayholy, holy, holy is the Lord,
God Almighty, but that doesn'tmean they sing it in a loop.
The book of Revelation alsotalks about them doing other
things.
They gather bowls of prayersand they take things to other
(13:05):
creatures and they do quite afew other things.
But that it definitely isn'tsomething that the scripture
says that people are ever goingto do.
On and on and on.
A fifth misconception is thatheaven is in the clouds.
All the comic pages that I readon Sunday portrayed heavens as
(13:26):
being in clouds.
Yeah, you've seen them too.
Yeah, people are sitting thereon a little cloud, strumming
hearts.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Even in movies they depict it like in the clouds.
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Now this is a conflation of the three
different ways that thescripture uses the word heaven.
The first way that thescripture uses the word heaven
is simply to mean the sky, likeheaven gave rain.
That just means the sky.
The second way is to mean thephysical cosmos, as in Genesis
(14:02):
1-1, where it says in thebeginning God created the
heavens and the earth.
That's the physical cosmos.
And then the third way that itmeans it is the unseen spiritual
realm.
For instance, whenever it talksabout the Lord's throne is in
heaven, it's talking about theunseen spiritual realm.
So those are the threedifferent uses of the word
(14:24):
heaven that we translate as oh.
There's a couple of othermisconceptions that are really,
really awful.
The sixth one is that spouseswon't know each other in heaven,
and the seventh is that allpeople in heaven won't know each
other.
I had a woman who was a recentwidow write me just in despair
(14:49):
saying I just read a blog thatsays I won't know my husband.
What am I supposed to do?
What is this true?
And it is not true.
It is absolutely not true andit takes away one of the biggest
comforts that we receive in theBible.
First, it's a misunderstanding.
(15:12):
Uh, from the same verse welooked at earlier, that, uh, the
people in the resurrection willneither marriage, married nor
given in, or ah, let me startthat one over.
They will neither marry nor begiven in marriage, and that
again, that's only talking about.
You won't be married becauseyou won't be procreating.
But in Luke 20, jesus says this.
(15:37):
This is verses 37 to 38.
He says but that the dead areraised.
Even Moses showed in thepassage about the bush where he
calls the Lord the God ofAbraham and the God of Isaac and
the God of Jacob.
Now, he is not God of the dead,but of the living and all live
to him.
Notice, he knows them, he knowsthem.
He knows Abraham, isaac andJacob who are currently with the
(16:01):
Lord.
This mainly comes from amisunderstanding of Isaiah 65,
17, which reads for behold, Icreate new heavens and a new
earth, and the former thingswill not be remembered or come
to mind.
That's where people get thisscary thought.
But number one, people are notformer things, they're eternal
(16:26):
beings and that's an importantdistinction to make.
And number two, the verse rightbefore gives us an explanation
of what it's meant.
The verse right before, verse16, god says the former troubles
are forgotten and are hiddenfrom my eyes my eyes.
So he's talking about thingsbeing forgotten by God.
(16:50):
Now in the Old Testament, whenthe scripture talks about God
remembering someone's sin, itmeans that he's about to act on
it and discipline or punish thatsin.
And when it says that heforgets, then that means he is
(17:11):
no longer going to act on it.
It's been disciplined and takencare of and now he's not going
to remember it anymore.
That does not mean that he'slost his omniscience.
Every time a pastor preaches onDavid and Bathsheba, god
doesn't say oh my gosh, I didn'tknow David committed adultery.
(17:31):
Right, oh my gosh, I didn'tknow David committed adultery.
It just means he forgave Davidand didn't have him die.
He's not going to be punishedfurther for it.
There were a lot ofconsequences in his day.
He's not going to be punishedfurther for it.
That's what it's talking about.
It's not talking about a lotloss of omniscience there.
(18:01):
Notice that in the gospels wesee that Peter recognized Moses
and Elijah at thetransfiguration.
Revelation 14, 13 tells us thatthe blessed are the dead who
die in the Lord, that they mayrest from their labors, for
their deeds Follow them.
How can their deeds follow them, if they if follow them, if
their past hasn't beenremembered.
And my favorite, 1Thessalonians 4.17, we will be
(18:22):
caught up together and we'll bewith the Lord forever.
We'll be together, we'll betogether.
Another misconception, just twomore.
Another misconception is thatheaven is all white.
Now, I thought that, based onthe comics, they always depicted
heaven as being white, andmovies do that too.
(18:44):
Right, yeah, in fact, when theApostle John was taken to the
heavenly realm, what he saw werejewel tones, not all light.
Elsewhere in the book ofRevelation it speaks of fruit
trees and a river and such, andI just don't think that the God
(19:07):
who made peacocks andhummingbirds and apple trees and
persimmons has forgotten how tobe creative.
You know that's not going to be.
And the final misconception isthat people in heaven will gaze
up on God nonstop, forever andever, as their only occupation.
(19:27):
That came from the Middle Agesas well.
The scripture says instead inRevelation 22.5 that our
occupation will be reigning withChrist.
That's our occupation.
So nine misconceptions, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Those are interesting how we, you know, misconstrue
scripture and then take thingsfrom, I don't know, I can't say
legend, but especially about thepainters with the halos.
They thought, oh, people willhave halos just because the
painter highlighted the person'sface.
That's the way it's going to be.
(20:06):
You know, in heaven, how wekind of draw things from there
and have misconceptions thataren't really true, which is
interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
My husband, clay, likes to call it extreme
makeover.
Metaphysical addition thatSatan is behind all these
misconceptions to make peoplethink they don't want to go to
heaven.
It's not attractive, so don'thave anything to do with God.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, Well, he's done a good job with it.
If people think we're going tobe singing all the time or just
constantly looking at God allthe time, but yeah, those were
very helpful.
So I know how sometimes peoplehave like near-death experiences
or like accounts that they'vegone to heaven.
(20:53):
How do these kind of like alignwith you know what's in the
Bible and how can they sometimeslike diverge from like what we
know in Christian teaching,Right?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
right, there are a lot of them.
Well, one way that they alignis with John 8, 51.
Jesus said truly, truly, I sayto you, if anyone keeps my word,
he will never see death.
So when Christians have anear-death experience, well, let
(21:27):
me just start with Christians.
When they have a near-deathexperience, they often see their
souls leaving their physicalbodies.
They don't feel dead.
They can many reports hoveringover their bodies and seeing the
body lying there, and that fitsvery well with what Jesus said
(21:50):
there he will never see death.
What's common between mostnear-death experiences is a
lucid death, where the soulseparates and they see the body.
Most have that an awareness ofcircumstances.
There's one documented case, infact, where a woman left her
(22:13):
body, watched the doctors andthen floated out of the hospital
and saw a tennis shoe on awindowsill.
When the doctors brought herback and she woke up, she
described accurately what hadbeen happening in the operating
(22:33):
room and told them about thetennis shoe.
And they went and looked andthere was a tennis shoe there.
So that was really interesting.
A lot of NDEs have a tunnelexperience, a life review.
People report seeing mysticalbeings and they often have a
reluctance to return.
(22:54):
Some actually go to hell,though, and then they don't have
a reluctance to return at all.
That's a really scary one.
The Case for a Heaven, in fact,by Lee Strobel mentions one
such person who went to hell,described it as awful and cried
out to the Lord to save him.
(23:15):
And he was.
He was taken away from thedemons and came back to life and
became a Christian after that.
The other way where things oftendiffer is that people tend to
see what matches their ownreligious experience.
So Christians may encounterJesus, they may encounter God.
(23:40):
Many encounter lights.
A Hindu person may encounter abeing they consider to be
Krishna.
It's important that we don'tbase our theology on near-death
experiences, because in somecases it's later been found out
that somebody has lied.
(24:01):
That happens sometimes.
Sometimes people draw erroneousconclusions from what they see.
They may see a bright light andgo, oh, that's God, or oh,
that's Krishna, or oh, that'swhoever.
And the other problem is thatSatan and his minions, the Bible
tells us, often disguisethemselves as angels of light.
(24:23):
So we don't know who they'rereally encountering at every
time.
So we need to turn to the Bibleto find out what it says about
heaven.
We need to turn to the Bible tofind out what it says about
heaven.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, that's how we can go down that road of
misconceptions when we thinkabout it, those near-death
experiences.
So what would be like somepractical implications Does the
(24:59):
belief in heaven?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
for Christians and on how we live here on earth, like
, how should it shape ourpriorities and our values?
Yes, well, for one thing, jesussaid that we should seek
rewards in heaven.
He said that we should not justbe gathering rewards on earth,
where moth and rust destroy, butrather we should seek rewards
in heaven.
And then he lists a whole bunchof things that he says will be
(25:20):
greatly rewarded in heaven.
And then the rest of the NewTestament also has more things,
things such as giving to thepoor, praying in secret, fasting
in secret, loving your enemies.
These are all things that Godsays will be rewarded in heaven.
So if that's the case, then weneed to re-aim our lives and
(25:41):
prioritize those things thatwill be rewarded in heaven
rather than those things thatare temporary and that we can't
take with us.
The other big thing that havinga robust view of the kingdom of
heaven does for us is it helpsus when we go through times of
(26:03):
loss.
All of us are going to facehardships, losses, grief, and if
we have a robust view of heaven, then we can be assured that
we're going to be.
There's a better place coming.
All those losses will be backwith our loved ones.
(26:24):
All those losses will be madeup for, we'll receive a reward
and we'll be alive for eternityin a much better place and in a
body that no longer has failingjoints and other issues.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, that hope for something better to come.
Yes something much better, yeah, so what does the Bible say
about living forever, likehaving eternal life?
What would it be like?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, actually, this is the funny thing Eternal life
comes in three stages.
We start out spiritually dead,according to the scripture, and
we start out as slaves to sin.
That's how we are born andthat's how we initially live.
(27:17):
But then there are three stages.
The first is the born againstage.
The second is the intermediatestage, and that occurs when our
bodies die but our souls do not.
And then the final stage, whenour bodies are resurrected.
Ephesians 2, 1 to 2 says and youwere dead in the trespasses and
(27:39):
sins in which you once walked.
So we start out being dead,spiritually dead, and unable to
not sin.
In fact, the scripture saysthat we're slaves to sin and
we're not good enough.
No one is good enough forheaven.
Stage one of eternal life iswhen we are born again.
It begins at spiritual rebirthand it occurs here on this earth
(28:03):
.
We're made alive, we're born ofGod, we're adopted by him to be
his child and we are finallyable to not sin.
John 5.24 reads truly, truly Isay whoever hears my word and
believes him, who sent me, haseternal life.
He does not come into judgment,but has passed from death to
(28:26):
life.
So Jesus has just describedthis, as those who believe in
him, then pass from death tolife.
Ephesians 2, 4 to 5 tells itlike this but God, being rich in
mercy because of the great lovewith which he loved us even
when we were dead in ourtrespasses, made us alive
(28:50):
together with Christ.
And then Romans 8, 10,.
If Christ is in you, though,the body is dead because of sin,
yet the spirit is alive becauseof righteousness.
So earlier I mentioned that wehave a glorious inheritance in
saints that Ephesians told usabout.
(29:11):
Here's the first facet of itwe're made spiritually alive Now
.
The second stage of eternal lifeis called the intermediate
state, and that begins at thedeath of the physical body.
The soul, or spirit, leaves thephysical body when it dies.
Ecclesiastes 12 7 says the dustreturns to the earth as it was
(29:35):
and the spirit returns to Godwho gave it.
Now where does the spirit go?
It goes to the present state ofeither hell or heaven.
Revelation 6-9 describes Johnwriting this.
He said I saw under the altarthe souls of those who had been
(29:58):
slain for the word of God.
So we actually see the souls ofpeople who, their bodies, died
on earth.
They were slain, but there theyare in heaven and at the
present state of heaven, andthat's what John sees In 2
Corinthians 5, 6 to 9,.
Paul wrote While we are at homein the body, we are away from
(30:19):
the Lord, and we would rather beaway from the body and at home
with the Lord.
So his self, his true self, isnot the physical body.
His true self is the soul thatinhabits the body.
And when the physical body dies, that true self goes to be
either in the present state ofhell or the present state of
(30:41):
heaven, and the present state ofheaven he calls being at home
with the Lord.
The best example of the twodifferences is in a narrative
that Jesus told about the richman and Lazarus.
The rich man ate everything hewanted and the poor man, lazarus
(31:02):
, was out by the gate beggingfor scraps, and they both die.
And then the narrative picks uphere in Luke 16, 22 to 24.
It reads the poor man died andwas carried by the angels to
Abraham's side.
The rich man also died and wasburied, and in Hades, being in
(31:24):
torment, he lifted up his eyesand saw Abraham far off and
Lazarus at his side, and hecalled out Father Abraham, have
mercy on me and send Lazarus todip the end of his finger in
water and cool my tongue, for Iam in anguish in this flame.
Notice they know each other, bythe way.
The rich man knows who Abrahamis and he knows who Lazarus is,
(31:48):
and Abraham knows who both ofthem are.
Then it continues in verses 25to 26.
But Abraham said Child,remember that you in your
lifetime received your goodthings and Lazarus, in like
manner, bad things.
But now he is comforted hereand you are in anguish.
(32:08):
And besides all this, betweenus and you a great chasm has
been fixed in order that thosewho would pass from here to you
may not be able, and none maycross from there to us.
So there are two destinationsthe rich man went to the place
of punishment and Lazarus wentto the place of comfort.
(32:31):
Now in the Bible there'sdifferent words used for these
things, and it's less clear inthe Old Testament than it is in
the New Testament.
In the Old Testament often thewords Sheol and Hades are just
used for the realm of debt andthere isn't the sense that
there's two places, one ofcomfort, one of punishment.
(32:52):
The place of comfort is alsocalled heaven or paradise, and
the place of punishment is alsocalled Hades, abaddon, the pit
hell, the abyss and the place oftorment.
So all of those are used.
(33:13):
You can see that Hades is usedinterchangeably, sometimes to
mean just the realm of the deadand sometimes to mean the place
of punishment.
So there we have a really goodexample of the separation.
So what do people experience inthis intermediate state?
They experience the presence ofthe Lord.
(33:36):
They experienced the presenceof the Lord.
Second Corinthians 5.8 says wewould rather be away from the
body and at home with the Lord.
And they experienced fellowship.
Lazarus had fellowship withAbraham and Moses had fellowship
with Elijah.
At this time we also receiveanother facet of our glorious
(33:57):
inheritance, and this is one Ithink everybody longs for will
be perfected, oh yeah, will beperfected.
So hebrews 11 names off all thesaints from the old testament,
or not all of them, but many ofthem and then it talks about
them like this in uh, chapter 12, 22 to 23 uh, the writer, the
(34:19):
author, is speaking to thosehe's writing to and who have
become Christians, and he writesto them and says but you have
come to the city of the livingGod and to the spirits of the
righteous made perfect.
Finally, no more temptations inthe place of comfort, no more
weak flesh that's constantlylusting after all kinds of
(34:43):
things of the world, the worldwe won't even be a part of.
We will no longer sin, we willbe perfected, and that takes us
to the final state.
This begins after the generalresurrection.
There's going to be a judgment.
Everybody will come before theLord.
(35:06):
Those who have not receivedJesus as paying for their sins
will face the judgment.
Those who have, thankfullywon't face that judgment, but
will face a judgment for theirworks.
For the purpose of rewards, godis creating a new heavens and
an earth.
Then he's going to resurrectthe bodies and our souls will
(35:28):
rejoin.
But to these resurrected bodiesresurrected bodies that have
never sinned or been sinnedagainst, the scripture describes
them as glorified.
It describes them as powerful,as imperishable.
First Corinthians 15 tells uswhat is sown is perishable,
(35:51):
meaning the body that dies hasperished, obviously, but what is
raised is imperishable.
What is sown is or, excuse me,it is sown in dishonor.
It is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness.
It is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body.
It is raised as a spiritualbody.
(36:14):
The first man, adam, was fromthe earth, a man of dust.
The second man, jesus, is fromheaven.
As was the man of dust, so alsoare those who are of dust, and
as is the man of heaven, so alsoare those who are of heaven.
So the resurrection occurs.
(36:34):
We're reunited with our souls,are reunited with now, a
glorious, resurrected body thatis imperishable, glorious and
powerful, just like jesus's.
The scripture also tells usthat uh will be resplendent like
the stars, the sun, or jesus atthe transfiguration will be
(36:56):
renowned because our deeds willfollow us, will be rewarded.
The scripture says that thosewho have built on the foundation
that Christ has laid willreceive a reward, will be
rewarded.
That's just amazing.
In 1 Peter 1.7, we're told thatthe tested genuineness of your
(37:20):
faith, more precious than goldthat perishes though it is
tested by fire, may be found toresult in praise and glory and
honor at the revelation of JesusChrist.
So the tested genuineness ofyour faith means so.
You've been going throughhardships here on earth and you
stuck it out and you werefaithful.
Because everybody's faith hasto be tested Right and when,
(37:43):
yeah, and when we go throughthose hardships and losses with
faith.
That proves our faith genuineto other people and to the
heavenly creatures.
God already knows, but itproves it.
Faithful to others, but itproves it faithful to others.
And then Revelation 22 tells usthat in our resurrected bodies
we will reign forever and everwith Christ.
(38:06):
So that's a pretty amazinginheritance awaiting us.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Oh yeah, that's interesting about the different
stages.
How it starts here on earth ishow it starts here on earth, and
it kind of progresses as wemove toward living with God
forever.
So I think that's prettyinteresting how that kind of
shapes it out.
Yes, and then especially thescriptures that correlate with
(38:36):
it also.
Yes, yeah, correlate with italso.
Yes, yeah, so how does ourbelief in heaven kind of impact
things such as prayer andworship and evangelism?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Oh, that's another good question.
For evangelism, it means thatwe really want to talk to our
loved ones who don't know Christ.
We really want to talk to themand give them the chance to hear
the gospel.
As to prayer, as you may know,my husband has stage four cancer
right now and because of that,one of the things that we've
(39:17):
been praying is Philippians 4, 4to 7.
And that begins with rejoice inthe Lord.
Always, and again, I sayrejoice.
And it goes on and talks abouthow to come to God with your
request for Thanksgiving.
Well, the reason that we canrejoice in the Lord, even in
these really tough times, isbecause we know heaven awaits
(39:40):
and so instead of praying oh God, how could this happen?
We can pray, lord.
I rejoice in the Lord always.
I rejoice in you.
Here are all the wonderfulthings you've done, here are the
things you promised to come,and I can be thankful for those
things.
And so we can pray with peaceand assurance.
And that's a really, reallywonderful way that it changes
(40:06):
prayer.
And then also, with worship, wecan truly magnify the Lord,
even when we're in the midst ofhard times and suffering,
because we know that God intendsto give us an inheritance that
will make all the sufferings andproblems of this world seem
slight and momentary.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, it kind of goes back to that hope that we have
you know for better things tocome.
Yes, all right, yes, all right.
So, to wrap up, whatencouragement can you offer
believers who want to livefaithfully for christ?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
number one I would say read the bible and do what
it says.
There are a lot of hopes in thebible, a lot of hopes for just
for while we're on this lifehere on earth, but also hope for
what's coming.
So read the Bible and do whatit says, because it will change
you and bring you to a placewhere you'll have more hope,
(41:09):
more joy and more peace evenwhile you're here.
And, of course, if you wanthelp in any of that, I do have
Bible studies that will help youto learn more from the Bible
and then also live for eternity.
We have a glorious, gloriousinheritance awaiting us.
We're going to be madespiritually alive upon being
(41:34):
born again.
We're going to be perfected,we're going to be resurrected,
we're going to be resplendent,we're going to be renowned and
rewarded.
I'll leave you with this.
Second Corinthians 4, 17 to 18tells us, for this light,
momentary affliction ispreparing for us an eternal
(41:55):
weight of glory, beyond allcomparison, as we look not to
the things that are seen, but tothe things that are unseen, for
the things that are seen aretransient, but the things that
are unseen are eternal.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yeah, amen to that.
I can't add anything else tothat.
Well, jean, thank you so muchfor being on the show and giving
us a better understanding ofheaven.
And hopefully it will spur uson to, you know, dive into the
word a little bit more, to havea little bit more clarity.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
So I hope you enjoyed this conversation that I had
with Jean on heaven.
Hopefully it gave you someinsight into what heaven is like
.
I know I am going to have to goback and do a little bit more
studying on heaven itself andwhat it's like.
I will put Jean's books in theshow notes so you can take a
(42:56):
look at those in the show notes,so you can take a look at those
.
But before I sign off, therewas an additional question that
I had for Jean that I wanted toinclude that I thought might be
helpful to understanding thedifferent stages of eternal life
.
So here's that question.
I did have one question for you, though you know how you were
talking about the um, thedifferent stages of heaven in
(43:20):
that intermediate stage, yeah,where you say we, when we die,
it's that part, what happens,and maybe this I have to study
more about, like what happens inthe end time.
But what happens if we don'tdie and there's no, we don't go
through that intermediate stage,or oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, paul writes about that.
He says not everybody will dieIf, when the Lord comes back,
there'll be some people who arestill on the earth that haven't
died yet.
And it says they will instantlybe changed and they will be
their resurrected bodies.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Will their current bodies will change into the
resurrected bodies instantly,which is pretty amazing Right,
so we all won't go through allof those stages of eternal life,
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
The people that are alive at the time that Jesus
comes back.
They won't.
They'll miss out on theintermediate stage.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Okay, I was thinking about that when you were going
through.
I said what about the peoplewho don't die you?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
know Clay wrote a book called Immortal how the
Fear of Death Drives Us and whatto Do About it, and it's all
about why not to be afraid ofdeath, and he's got a lot in
there on that, All right.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
So this wraps up our episode.
So if this was helpful to you,please share with your family
and friends.
And until next time, rememberGod is always good and he's
always faithful.
Thank you for listening to thepodcast.
Do me a favor by following thepodcast and leaving a review to
(45:02):
help spread the word.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
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