January 11, 2025 • 45 mins
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Megan M. Hamm, a licensed professional counselor and registered play therapist, discusses trauma-informed therapy and mental health awareness, particularly for children. She emphasizes the importance of understanding children's behaviors as forms of communication rather than manipulation. Megan shares her journey from a childhood passion for teaching to a career in psychology, driven by a pivotal experience in third grade. She advocates for a trauma-informed approach, suggesting that consistent, nonjudgmental responses can foster resilience. Megan also addresses the complex issue of corporal punishment, recommending alternative strategies and emphasizing the need for parents to reflect on their intentions and responses.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
TD Flenaugh (00:00):
Welcome everyone to the Falling for Learning
(00:02):
Podcast. So glad that you'vejoined us today. We have a
special guest today to reallytalk about what we can do to
support children that havetrauma, what are some ways that
we can make it fun, engaging andhelp them to heal at the same
time and recognize those signs,because some of us have children
(00:24):
that are facing or dealing witha lot emotionally, and we don't
even know and so you want tolike subscribe and sit in and
enjoy this conversation. Hi.
Thank you so much for joiningthe following for learning
podcast. We have this podcast tohelp parents and caregivers with
having the resources, strategiesand tools needed to make sure
(00:46):
that their children are on trackfor learning and to stay on
track for success. Okay, so ourspecial guest today is Megan M
Hamm, so she is a licensedprofessional counselor and a
registered play therapist. Shehas over 16 years working in
(01:10):
mental health, and she's also anAmazon Best selling author who
shows dedication to nurturingIndividual and Family Well Being
through innovative therapeuticpractices at her Mississippi
based practice time for a changecounseling. Megan specializes in
play therapy, trauma and parentchild relationships, providing
(01:36):
transformative care forchildren, adolescents and adults
beyond therapy, she advocatespassionately for mental health
awareness, particularly withinthe African American community,
and serves on several boards andorganizations. Megan's latest
book, The heart of the matter, acompassionate approach to
(02:00):
transforming behaviors in fosterand adoptive children reflects
her commitment to empoweringfamilies to overcome
generational trauma and fosterresilience. Thank you so much
for joining us today. Megan ham,how are you doing?
Megan M. Hamm (02:24):
Thank you so much. I'm doing well, and thank
you for having me on yourpodcast today.
TD Flenaugh (02:30):
Alright, so tell us a little bit. We're in the new
year. This is just like this.
You know, a couple weeks in,how's it going so far with your
new year.
Megan M. Hamm (02:42):
This new year really is going well. I can say
that one of my goals was, isconsistency. And so I have a
couple goals that I'm workingon, and I have consistently did
something toward those goalsevery day. So I'm excited about
that, and I'm excited to keep itgoing, and being able to put
(03:02):
myself in a position where I cancreate the goal, you know, Write
the vision, make it plain, butalso make the consistent small
steps to see the bigger goalcome to pass.
TD Flenaugh (03:14):
That is so cool, right? Exactly, consistency, I
think underlying everyone'slike, you know, their New Year's
resolution, there is that partof whatever that goal is,
consistency is part of that,right? Yeah, awesome. Okay, so
we know you are an expert inmental health and and treating
(03:39):
that. Can you tell us when youas a child, like, what was it
that really got you intolearning? Because obviously you
have to, you know, be good atstudying or be interested in
this area. So what was it thatjust got you into learning in
general as a kid?
Megan M. Hamm (03:58):
I think for me, I think about an experience I had
with my nine times tables. So Iwas in the third grade, and I
had, I was a very I hate to sayI was a smart kid, but things
came really easy to me inschool. I'm gonna say that so I
can sit in the classroom, I canhear the work, I can hear the
teacher, and then I could, youknow, I could bring it back out
(04:20):
on the test. But my nine timestables, I didn't do that. And so
I failed the test for my ninetimes table. I missed my recess.
It was the third grade Iremember vividly. It was the
first time I ever one failed atest, and two missed my recess.
And so in that we had to stay inand we had to write our nine
(04:42):
timetable over and over and overagain. And when I went back to
take the test, of course, Ipassed the test. And so I think
now looking back, that was themoment where I realized that
there was this concept calledlearning. It wasn't just about
sending the class for. Womenlistening, but actually applying
(05:02):
myself to reach a goal. And Ithink the third grade was the
first time that that was ithappened. But of course, when I
was in the third grade, itdidn't make sense then, but now,
as an adult, we can look backand say, Hey, that was the
moment, um, third grade, my ninetimes tables when I failed that
test.
TD Flenaugh (05:21):
Oh, I love that. I mean, you're really talking
about like, making thattransition from just like doing
things easily and then puttingin the effort to make something
happen, wonderful, having
Megan M. Hamm (05:32):
to, having to work for it. Yep, first time,
well, maybe not the first timein life, but that I can vividly
remember, especially as,
TD Flenaugh (05:41):
Wow. Okay, so tell us about some activities or
interest you had as a child thatled to your current work today
as a licensed professionalcounselor.
Megan M. Hamm (05:55):
You know, when I was a when I was a kid, I
definitely was always I like tobe around other children, and I
like to play a lot, even to thepoint where I always I was going
to be a teacher. That was mytrue passion. I was the, you
know, little known fact, when Iwas a teenager in the summertime
(06:18):
in Mississippi, I would get, Iwould get all of my little
cousins, all of my youngercousins. And we had a minivan
and I would go, and I would gopick everybody up, like school
bus and sometimes, and we wouldplay school and we would do,
like regular stuff. We would doBible based activities, but we
would do, like, just schoolwork, and they were seven, eight
(06:40):
years younger than me, and so Iwas, I didn't now, as an adult,
I realized why my aunts were soexcited about me coming to get
their kids for the day, right?
But then I was like, oh,everybody's supporting. Because
my aunts would buy snacks, andwe would have all kind of food
and snacks. It was justeverybody was so supportive. And
so I had my younger cousins, andwe would play school, and I
(07:02):
would be the teacher. And so Ialways my passion was to be a
teacher, until I took a class my12th grade year in high school.
I took psychology, and we wentto we did a field trip in this
class, and we went to a collegecampus to their psychology
department, and I fell in lovewith learning about behavior,
(07:26):
human behavior, and kind of whatmade people tick. And so that's
when I decided not to doeducation, but to go into
psychology. So that was that wasmy role to mental health. Was
taking that psychology classbecause I knew I was going to be
a teacher. That was my calling.
(07:48):
I was going to help the kids, Iwas going to teach, and it just
but now I get to teach on adifferent level, right? So it
all kind of circles back to whatI do today, but it definitely
that's how it started.
TD Flenaugh (08:02):
Wow. Okay, that's amazing. Wow. So as we're
thinking about your story andall of that, like, what, like,
what really is something thatpeople get wrong when it comes
to, like, mental healthawareness, like, what is it that
(08:25):
you notice that people aregetting wrong about kids or even
themselves?
Megan M. Hamm (08:33):
I think the thing, the one thing that I say,
that I have a conversation aboutconsistently, um, especially
with kids, is that they're doingit on purpose, and that they're
trying to manipulate the adultor manipulate the situation. A
lot of times when children arehaving behaviors or they are
acting out as adults, we feellike they shouldn't. They know
(08:57):
better, because you didn't dothis Monday, you didn't do this
Tuesday, so why you cutting upWednesday? Right? So we start to
think that it's intentionalbehavior. Um, I really come from
a place when it comes to when itcomes to children and behaviors
and mental health. I come fromthe place of that behavior is
really a kid's way ofcommunicating when there's a
(09:20):
need that's not being met, andso
TD Flenaugh (09:23):
let me pause you.
So those kids where we might belike, this is just a bad kid, or
this kid, you know, that's justhow they are. This is something
we're getting wrong.
Megan M. Hamm (09:40):
You know, I really don't, I would agree that
we're getting it wrong. I don'tbelieve in bad kids, right?
Because if I believe in badkids, then I have to believe in
bad adults, right? Um, but Ireally feel like there's,
there's some kids who have ahard time to. Getting their
(10:00):
needs met in a way that we seehere we go, a way that society
accepts right? Because if welook at it, if we look at things
that we we typically, most ofthe things that we do or that we
expect are based upon somebodyelse's standard. And if we were
(10:23):
to acknowledge that, acknowledgethat, okay, I'm expecting this
child to act this certain way,um, I always implore and those
adults to say, okay, where doesthat come from? Where did that
start for you? Where did thatexpectation? Where was that
expectation created that this isthe right or wrong way to do or
(10:45):
the right or wrong way tobehave, or the right or wrong
way to act?
TD Flenaugh (10:49):
Okay, so an example of where we are measuring a
reaction or an action in a waythat we could look at it from a
different point of view.
Megan M. Hamm (11:06):
So let's say that you have a child who goes to
school, and let's say they go toschool that morning and they
were really expecting thecafeteria paper said that they
were going to have pancakes forbreakfast and the but the
cafeteria didn't have pancakes.
So it gets to the cafeteria, andall they had was cereal, right?
(11:26):
So they were expecting thepancakes, excited about the
pancakes, but they got cerealfor breakfast, but they were
fed. So then they get to theirfirst period class, they get to
their get to their teacher, andthey're upset, and they're
having a bad day, and it's like,the teacher's like, hey, put
your book sack down. And it'slike, I don't want to, right?
And we're like, you just came toschool. You just, you know, why
(11:49):
are you acting like thisalready? Just Just follow the
directions. Yes, because all theother kids are doing what I told
them to do, and you're notright, and so the kid that's not
doing it becomes the outlier.
Yes, even in all of that, mostkids, let's just, let's just say
this is a second grader. Mostsecond graders are not going to
(12:13):
be able to say, well, MissMegan. I'm disappointed, because
I was expecting pancakes thismorning for breakfast, and all
the cafeteria had was frostedplate. And although I love
frosted plate, that wasn't whatI had wanted to eat this
morning. And so now I'mdisappointed. And so my
disappointment comes out. Andyou're telling me to do
something, and I'm saying, No, Idon't want to do it. And the
(12:36):
thing about that is being in thein the classroom, if that
behavior, if that instance, isan address being, and a teacher
takes it as, Oh, you just aren'tyou don't want to listen. Oh,
it's going to be that kind ofday or this kind of mood you're
in. And of course, as a not, ofcourse, as adults, but as
adults, we tend to match that.
We tend to match that energy.
(12:59):
And I'm the authority, right?
Because I'm the authority,because I told you to do what I
needed you to do, right? Yeah,and do it. You're not going to
make my day harder, becauseeverybody else can do it. So why
won't you just do it? I'm notdoing insult
TD Flenaugh (13:13):
you today,
Megan M. Hamm (13:14):
not today, right?
Today? Yeah. And so when thething about it is, if that's not
addressed in that moment, ifit's not something that we
investigate in that moment, um,if that's not something that we
lean into, it definitely canbecome a power struggle
throughout the day.
TD Flenaugh (13:31):
Wow. So what's your suggestion? Because you're
giving us a classroom example,right? We do have home parents
as well. They they have the timeto take or, you know, daycare
workers, or people are dealingwith several kids, like, what
is, what's the what are somejust suggestions.
Megan M. Hamm (13:53):
So my suggestion is, for us, with that story that
I told you, it's, it's easierfor us to understand it, because
we know the back story, right?
So if we knew that he wantedpancakes and he wasn't able to
get it, and that's why he wasfeeling disappointed, so that's
why I was coming out, and how hewas acting, then we can
necessarily get on his level andsay, hey, I can understand that
(14:16):
pancakes were not an option thismorning. I can understand how
disappointed you are, and we canhelp them work through that. The
reality is we don't always knowthe back story, and so if I
choose to teach, if I choose toapproach behavior as if there's
an unmet need, then I always gofrom the approach that something
(14:39):
has happened, I always go tofrom the approach that, you
know, we are all going throughsomething, and that is, that's
the trauma informed approachthat we often right now people
are throwing around. You know,trauma is a buzzword. Trauma
Informed is a buzzword. Youknow, the reality is, for me.
Trauma informed simply meansthat I go through stuff on a
(15:01):
daily basis, so I know that yougo through stuff on a daily
basis, and I choose to show yougrace. I don't assume the worst
when you and I have aninteraction that doesn't line up
with what I need from you inthis moment. And so if that
happens,
TD Flenaugh (15:19):
let's just pause there like that. I think we just
need to let that sink in, likethe trauma informed way is
really coming, not from okay,this kid is giving me a problem
again today, or I just met thiskid, and this kid obviously is
going to be a problem, right?
But instead thinking this kid ishaving some kind of challenge,
(15:42):
something happened, and we needto figure out what that
challenge is so that we can helpthem move forward in a
productive way.
Megan M. Hamm (15:53):
Yeah, and I think that's a that's a big part of
it. One of the things that I dodifferently in my practice is I
don't, and I tell parents thisfrom the beginning. If they
don't have to tell me the story,I don't have to know the why, to
meet you where you are, to giveyou grace. Right? A lot of times
in our society, we feel as a asan individual, we feel more
(16:17):
comfortable when we know thewhy, right. Think about if you
interacted with somebody who akid who just lost their mom, we
show them a lot of grace in theclassroom. Let's just be real.
We do we show them a lot ofgrace, we give them a lot of
support. We give them a lot ofresources, because we know they
(16:37):
just lost their mom, or they hada big loss. Let's say we have a
kid that's dealing withsomething just as big in their
life that we don't know about.
We don't always offer them thesame grades. My, my, I implore
people, let's just offereverybody the grace as if they
just had a big loss, because wemay not know the thing that
(16:58):
they're dealing with. Okay, soit doesn't mean
TD Flenaugh (17:03):
we're gonna go into a break and we will get into it.
Okay, all over the UnitedStates, 75% of children don't
know how to write. Well, addthat to the fact that so many
people out there are trying tosilence the voices of those who
have been oppressed and tryingto prevent them from telling
(17:24):
their story. Who's going to tellyour story if your child doesn't
know how to write? Well, I havetwo books to address this issue,
the rewrite method and therewrite method workbook pretend
to make sure that parents knowwhat to do, that educators know
what to do to get their childrento write better and just not
write better, but love to write.
Make sure that your nextgeneration could tell their
(17:47):
story and they won't besilenced. Go to falling for
learning.com today to purchaseyour set. Okay, we're back such
important gems being droppedright now by Megan ham, alright,
like just really changing thatperspective. Um, so, you know,
(18:08):
we kind of had a little breakthere. Can you take us back to,
you know, if someone has, weknow, they just had a big loss.
We give them a lot of person, wegotta give them a lot of grace.
And then how we could shift theperspective to giving everyone
that grace. Because, of course,we don't know what's going on
(18:29):
with everybody.
Megan M. Hamm (18:32):
And so one of the things that I definitely feel
like I approach life, and Iapproach people, and I teach my
parents this as well, being ableto give grace. And I say give
grace, but what I really mean isbeing very intentional in the
words that we use when we'retalking to our kids, when we're
talking to other kids about justsome of the things, even if it's
(18:54):
their behavior, we can, we candirectly address a child's
behavior and be intentional inthe words that we use, that we
don't add additional shame andguilt to what happened, um, a
lot. And when I'm working withparents, I tell them, let's say
your child did get in trouble,let's let's say your child had a
big behavior and, oh, they wereat home. I've been at home my
(19:18):
kids, you know, it's been thebreak, so you've been at home
with me, right? Um, so let's getinto the fact that sometimes my,
even my kids, have bigbehaviors. That doesn't mean
that. The other day, we were athome and I had redirected my
daughter. I wouldn't even say,redirect it. I told her to get
up and get a room clean, youknow? So, hey, we're at home,
we're we're chilling, but I'mlike, Hey, let's go on to get
(19:40):
this this room clean. And shegot up, and she was huffing and
puffing and storming. I'm look,I'm thinking like, oh, because I
asked you to get your room cleanRight, right? My first response,
honestly, my initial thoughtwas, why is she playing with me?
But then I had to realize. Thatwas a me. Thing had nothing to
(20:02):
do with her, and her intentionwas not to play with me, right?
Her intention was, I'm sittingwell, I can't say what her
intention was, but I'm sittinghere, we're watching this TV
show, and in the middle of medoing nothing, you're asking me
to do something. So what I'velearned to do even with my own
kids, it's, I give them thatadjustment period, right? I give
(20:23):
them time to adjust to what I'masking them to do. It's not
like, Oh, you got to get up,right? Now, I remember, you
know, in past generations when,when the adult called your name,
you should already be up and onyour way to them, you don't even
know what they're asking youyet. And so we come from that
mindset of you are a child, whenI call your name, why are you
(20:43):
not on your way? And so I haveto in my household, I have to
let go of that, because for me,that was seen as a way of trying
to be in control and trying tobe and having the power. And I
realized that my power doesn'tcome in the way I my power
doesn't come and how I what Isay, but how I choose to respond
(21:05):
to my kids and to just thingsthat are going on. And so one of
the things I always encourageparents is your words. Be very
intentional with your words.
What are the things that,course, things.
TD Flenaugh (21:17):
This is a paradigm shift you want parents to, you
know, break that thing, whereasI get up and go when I say it,
don't question, it, don't havean attitude. And so instead, an
adjustment period. So would itbe like, Okay, after we watch
(21:39):
this show, I want us to get upand clean, you know, I need to
get up and clean the room now.
Megan M. Hamm (21:47):
Yeah, it could be. And it depends, it depends
on your child, because some kidsdo better with, um, after we
watch this show, we'll get upand we'll clean up. Some
children do better with, hey, Ineed this clean by a certain
time. I'm saying as mom, beforewe lay our head down at 930
tonight, the expectation is yourroom is clean. Some children
(22:09):
work better in that having thatautonomy and having the freedom
to do it as they choose. Mykids, on the other hand, it's
more like, let's go on to get itdone when you first get up,
because they sometimes. Somekids have a hard time
transitioning and adjusting. Andyou have to know that about the
kids that you're working with,whether it's your kid at home,
(22:31):
some kids do well with playingand then coming in and getting
their work done. Some kids, ifyou let them go outside and
play, when they come in, they'renot going to want to get their
work done, so they may have toget the work done first and play
as the incentive to get it done.
So it's really just knowing yourkid, and I think with words,
adjusting how you say it, notjust saying it from, hey, I'm
(22:52):
Mom, I'm the authority. I say,get it done. Get it done. You
get it figured out. But goingfrom the perspective of, hey,
you know, for my kids, I didhave to go back and say, Megan,
we are in the middle of a TVshow. So why did that just cross
your mind in that moment? Right?
Because, if we're being honest,sometimes as the adults, we can
(23:14):
be the trigger, right? Becausewe we could have waited 15
minutes to show it off. Butthere was something in my mind,
in that moment, like, Man, this,these rooms gotta get clean, um,
and in those times I do, I am atthe place where I will go and
say, You know what? We can waittill the show goes off. That's
fine. And I also help my kids tounderstand it's not because you
(23:36):
responded the way you responded.
Because I don't want you tothink that because you started
storming off that I changed mymind. But what I want you to
know is that I realize that wecan't wait till the show goes
off. I think that's an importantpiece as well, because a lot of
things that we do in life andchildren is learned behavior. I
don't want my kids to think thatif I ask them to do something,
(23:57):
they get up and start stormingoff. Then right after that, I
changed my mind. Then they'regoing to connect that. Oh, I
could just throw em off, and shegoing to, she going to change
your mind, yes. And so that'sthe importance of using our
words too, as adults to say,hey, you know what? Now that
I've thought about it, it's notbecause of how you responded,
but now that I thought about it,that is something that could
(24:20):
wait the next couple minutes.
TD Flenaugh (24:22):
Okay, but tell me, how do you deal with that
response, though? Like, Iunderstand you're saying it's
not because of that response.
But what do I say? Like, youknow, trying to be handle it in
a healthier way, a moreproductive way. What do I say
about the huffing, huffing andall that.
Megan M. Hamm (24:42):
Yeah, so that's a good one, right? Because for
parents or adults working withchildren, it's oftentimes seen
as disrespectful, right? Um, oneof the the when I'm working with
parents, one of the first thingsthat I work with parents on you.
Is we talk about their personalbut because ultimately, I can't
(25:05):
control what some how somebodyelse chooses to respond, and I
have let go of the need to tryto control or try to have power
over somebody else's behavior.
The only thing I can control ishow I respond. And so in my
household, we set anexpectation, right? And so the
expectation is, like, I don'tallow my kids to. I'm not going
(25:26):
to say I allow my kids to. It'sweird, because I don't allow my
kids to be disrespectful. Like,we don't go in there. They're
not cussing me, or they're notbeing disrespectful, right? But
when my child has a responselike that, I allow her time to
adjust with my words, I willsay, hey, that that maybe didn't
have to be the response you hadto me asking you to do
(25:49):
something. I allow them toadjust, but I know my personal
buttons for me. That doesn'tbother me, but slamming the
door, oh, that gets meunraveled, right? That'll
unravel me fast if you slam adoor. Um, so I think the first
thing I would definitely tellparents is being able to be
aware of their own personalbuttons, but also to already
have the expectation in placeand be able to redirect without
(26:13):
the emotion. So if I allow,
TD Flenaugh (26:18):
you're just saying so you're saying because I'm
like, my mind is just going, asyou're talking, like, not to
have a control or power, like,well, as a parent, right? We
supposed to have the controlpros, have the power, um, but
you, you know, you're addressingsome of that. But one of the
things that I'm hearing is, youknow, what's your personal
(26:40):
button and be expected, right?
Expect my kids going to slam thedoor. I don't like that, so how
am I going to handle it in aproductive way? Right? Because,
of course, I slam the door, you,you know, yell at me or
whatever, like it's justescalating, right? Um, so, like,
gotta have a moment to sit withthese things, because it's like,
(27:06):
no, I'm in control. I'mempowered, right? And so it
takes a moment to kind of thinkabout and adjust these things,
right? Because, yes, if you areslamming the door, and my
response, that's my personalbutton, right? Like you were
saying, and and my response isjust like, over the top, or I'm
(27:27):
going off, you know, it's gonna,it's gonna get bad, right? Um,
but preparing for that ahead oftime, like, if they slam the
door, do you tell your kidthat's your personal button?
Like, look, don't, don't slamthe door. Makes me so mad. Or,
like, what do you
Megan M. Hamm (27:49):
and the thing is, my kid, I have a conversation
with my kids, and I teachparents. It's about having a
conversation to say, hey, we cango through all of the words in
the dictionary. Like, for me,personally, words do not bother
me. They're not many words mykids can say that will push my
button because words don'tbother me, and it may be partly
because I'm a therapist, and soI hear all kind of stuff every
(28:12):
day too, but I understand that'smy personal parenting button is
slamming the door, and I letthem know, Hey, we can do all of
this. Slamming the door is outthe question, we're not going to
slam the door. And if they slamthe door, there's a there's an
expectation to not slam thedoor, and there's a consequence
if they do that, I havecompletely taken myself out of
(28:33):
because there's nothing wrongwith as a parent, when I find
myself getting upset or if we'rein this power struggle, you
know, sometimes I can get to thepoint where I recognize I'm in
that power struggle, and I stepaway, I do the thing that I'm
trying to teach my kid to do,right? I will say, You know
(28:53):
what? We're going to put a pausein it. I'm going to take a
break, and I go take me somedeep breaths, and we'll come
back to it. But a lot of timestaking a break is seen as I've
lost, or I'm giving up, orthere's a weakness involved. And
as parents, when we're in themiddle of something like that,
we don't want the kid to thinkthat they won. And so a lot of
(29:14):
this, you know, one of thethings that I work with is when
I'm talking to people and I'mlike, Oh, it's a lot of it's a
lot about what the parent isdoing, because ultimately,
that's the only, the only personwe can control in any situation
is who. Yes, it's ourselves. Andthe thing is, we teach our kids
that, you know, we teach ourkids in the classroom or at
(29:36):
school, and they'll be like,well, somebody said something to
me, or I hear kids say all thetime, well, the reason I got in
trouble because he hit me firstand I hit him back, or he said
something to make me mad, so Ifelt like I was justified in
being mad and real quick to say,Hey, you can't control what
other people say and do. You canonly control yourself. But
that's the same thing when wegrow up. It's the same thing
(29:59):
when we grow up and become.
Parents, you know, I can't mybehavior and my presence and my
responses can influence my kidsbehaviors, but me just standing
there and whooping them all day,or me standing there and yelling
all day is not what's makingthem stop the behavior. Because
if that was the Do you like,what
TD Flenaugh (30:20):
do you like? What do you what do you think about?
Like, corporal punishment,whooping, all that. Like, is
that something that is like? Iknow, like, some give me your
thoughts. I don't know.
Megan M. Hamm (30:33):
So I firmly believe, and this is just in
life. So I believe that weanything that we choose to do if
we are doing it from a place ofheal, from being healed, and not
from a place of being hurt. I'mnot the person to judge your
action, right? I'm never goingto tell a parent not to whoop
(30:53):
their child or to whoop theirchild when it comes to whooping.
I definitely, you know, comefrom the perspective of, you
know, I offer suggestions, but Idon't necessarily tell people
what to do and what not to do intheir own home. Um, but whenever
any thing that you do when itcomes to parenting or whatever
it is, I come from theperspective of, are you doing it
(31:16):
from a place of being healed?
Are you coming from a place ofbeing hurt? And what is your
intention behind the behavior?
If we lived our life trying tofigure out why we do the things
that we do and what makes ustick that it would it would
probably change 79% of thingsthat we do. 79% is so random.
It's not research based. It'sjust my thoughts. But um, a lot
(31:37):
of times, especially whenparents come in, they're telling
me that they are whooping.
They're like they areconsistent. I talk to parents
who you know, they're findingthemselves whooping their
children on a daily basis, orthey're finding themselves
they're whooping the kid, andthen grandma's whooping the kid,
and the kid is getting multiplewhoopings a day. And I asked
them,
TD Flenaugh (31:58):
hold on, so the whooping style as a therapist, I
know, like, you know, you'reprobably a mandated reporter. Am
I right?
Megan M. Hamm (32:07):
I am. I'm a mandated reporter. So
TD Flenaugh (32:11):
I like that you're saying that people can talk
about because I feel like that'sanother barrier to like black
people going to therapy, becauseof them are within their
children. And then certaintherapists this automatic, like,
I'm calling your whooping kids,right? And so, but I know that
there's a limit, right? There's,like, because, of course, we
(32:33):
know that there's a spectrum ofwhooping. I could just pop your
hand, right? Yeah, I could, youknow, pop that, but a couple
times, you know, you could have,like, a wooden spoon, extension
cord, like, I don't know, like,what, where is it that you have
to report? Because I know thereare sometimes you have to
(32:53):
report, but me just saying I'mwith my kid or something, you
know, and you understand theculture a little better as an
African American woman, so what?
Where's that line?
Megan M. Hamm (33:06):
And I honestly, well, we go into detail. So I
definitely ask them to explainand most of the point when I'm
asking them to explain it, I'mgoing to see their responses and
what they're doing versus whatthe kid is doing. And so if a
parent is telling me thatthey're getting a belt and
they're whooping their kids,that's not anything I need to
report to DHS. But you can't sithere and tell me, Well, you
(33:28):
know, I had the belt and hebowled up and I had to box him
down like, you know, we're notthat conversation. We have it
but, or that's a differentconversation we're having. But
one of the things I encourage myparents is, if you have
consistently, if you felt likeyou've had to whoop this child
since he was three, now he'seight, if you had to whoop him
(33:50):
every day, give me 30 days withno whooping, and you do
something different that I'masking you to do, and we'll see.
If let's see, we'll see adifference. Because right now, I
tip of all the time, clearly,daily whoopings ain't working
because you wouldn't have to doit every day, right? If this was
something that was effective, wewouldn't be having to do it
(34:11):
every day, several times a day.
So let's try something. We'vetried that for the last two,
three years. We've tried it. Ithadn't worked as well as we
wanted to so let's, let's trysomething else. And I think
typically, when I come from thatperspective of it, a lot of
times I've seen where parentswill not choose, they won't
choose the whoop and thephysical discipline as the
(34:34):
primary okay. Now sometimes I dohave to get with parents, and
have to be real, real honestabout why, you know, and say,
Hey, you're whooping them notbecause of something they're
doing, but because you'refrustrated. And that's how you
take power back in yourhousehold. It's the physical
discipline of it. And I've hadconversation with parents too,
(34:55):
and this is a this is topic thatpeople don't want to talk about,
but it is what it. Is right. AndI've said, if you came home and
your spouse told you that yougot you got rolled up at work
today because you didn't dosomething at work, and their
response was, I'm going to whoopyou so that you don't do that
behavior tomorrow at school.
(35:16):
Would that be appropriate? So atwhat age? At what age does the
power struggle stop? You know,the people like, oh, that's
different. How we have oneperson that is using physical
discipline to stop a behavior inanother person. What makes it
different? And a lot of timespeople, and I've had people
(35:37):
like, no, that's not the samething. I want to talk about.
That's fine. We don't have totalk about it. All I'm talking
about is one person usingphysical discipline to stop a
behavior in somebody else,right? Let's take away the age.
Let's take away therelationship. Let's talk about
the behavior. And so for me, Idefinitely have conversations.
I've had to have conversationswith parents about because it's
(36:00):
hard to build a relationship.
Now, the therapeutic part of itis it's hard to build a trusting
relationship with somebody thatyou are physically hitting that
you are physically because atthe end of the day, the whooping
hurt. That's the purpose ofthem, is to inflict the pain,
right? The purpose is not toteach you. The purpose is not
(36:21):
I'm whooping you because I loveyou, I love you, and I want you
to do better, and so I'm doingwhat I know, what I think is
going to work and going to makeyou do better, okay? But the
reality is that's stillphysically hurting somebody,
yes, um, so, Mm, hmm,
TD Flenaugh (36:38):
so, so, bringing it back. I'm feeling a little
relief, right? I'm feeling alittle okay, because what I'm
hearing is, if I'm a parentwhooping my child, I can tell
you as my therapist, and you'renot automatically going to call,
you know, Child ProtectiveServices or, you know, whatever
(37:01):
they call it in your state orarea. But you want to get to the
root of the issue. You want totalk about, what's happening.
You're going to work with me tofigure out, like, what else can
be done that's effective ingetting your child to improve.
We're going to talk about, youknow, different perspectives
(37:22):
relationships, and so I'mfeeling a little relief, because
I just hear this as a barrierover and over and over again,
like, therapists are going toturn you in for using physical
corporal punishment against yourKid, which is very normal. Like,
that's what people do in blackhouseholds, or, you know, and
(37:45):
not even just black households,a lot of households, right, you
know? And so you're not saying,like, automatically you
shouldn't do that. You aretalking through and talking
about effective, talking aboutbuilding relationship. So I feel
a little relief, right? BecauseI feel like it's so hard, like I
(38:07):
don't want to get help, becauseI don't want to be reported on,
right? But I do need help, butam I going to lose my kids?
Right? So that's a that's such areal threat in black families.
And we know like statistics arelike black families, black
mothers or whatever, parents aremore likely to get their kids
(38:28):
removed in certain situations.
Um, but I don't know. I just hadto like that just feels so much
better. And
Megan M. Hamm (38:36):
I'm glad you said that, because that's definitely
a PERS, I guess, a perspectivethat because, I guess because I
am a black therapist, andbecause I am in private
practice, a lot of times whenpeople come to me, a lot of that
fear has already just beenbecause we've talked already on
the phone about things likeduring the consultation. So I
(38:57):
think what happens is a lot ofthose barriers have already been
we've already broke down some ofthose barriers. So I think I
might even do a training onwhooping. What is the what are
the legal implications? Like,when does it become aggressive?
Too much? Um, because a lot oftimes parents don't understand
that. I'm I'm not going to tellyou not to my job is not to tell
(39:20):
you what to do is to educate youon the implications of what you
are doing. And as a parent,child relationship expert, my
job is to help you understandwhy you're doing it. It's not
about what the kid done. I wantto know what drove you to the
point where you felt like thatwas your that was the next
option for you, because if youare making that decision from a
(39:44):
well informed, educated point,then who am I to take that away
from you? But nine times out of10, once I educate parents on
it, and once we have thoseconversations, they I, I. If I
could, I, you know, I've never,I've done, not done the research
on it, but most of my parents,I've never had a parent come
(40:08):
back and say, I've doneeverything you said, and I still
have to whoop them every day.
Okay? I've never had a parentcome tell me yet. Now, I have
had a parent. I have had aparent or two who was like, this
is foolish. This is this foolstuff you talking about. And
they kind of, you know, theyall, they'll, they don't want to
do the parent consultations asmuch. It's like, I need you to
(40:29):
fix him. I need you to fix them.
And honestly, those parentsdon't stay in therapy for long
with me, because after I've seenthe kid, and then it's time to
do parent consultation, and youcancel. Oh, I can't. I don't
need to see him. I need to seeyou like you. Let me know when
your schedule is available, andwe'll make it work. Okay,
TD Flenaugh (40:50):
so this is what it is. Okay. I mean that I can't
just expect you to fix my child.
You're not the child mechanic.
That's the not what we do. Youcan't just fix my child. I need
to do some reflection. I need todo some work. I need to, you
know, work on my communication,or my tactics, my techniques. So
(41:16):
it's not just, I'm going to dropyour kid off or whatever, an
hour every week they're going toget better. She fixed it. It's
really about working togetherand and also, what you're saying
is I, some of it is about yourindividual child. So again, it's
not like just read it in a book,follow this manual. Okay, so I
(41:40):
love I feel like so much relief.
You know, my daughter is grownnow, but definitely we've had
some situations. I had her incounseling. I did have somebody
report on me, like, everythingcame out. Okay, it's scary. So
it is scary, and I understandwhy people don't want to get
help, like I've articulate,there's a lot of things about
(42:04):
me, right, that I things cameout okay for me, right? But I
know that some people, itdoesn't, and I just I
understand, right? And so I somuch for coming to our show,
helping us out, helping us tothink about things, talk about
your approach. It's soimportant. So where can people
(42:27):
find you? I know you have yourbook, we're gonna we have the
link in the show notes for yourbook so we could buy that and
what else like. Where can wefind you, on social media and
all of those things,
Unknown (42:45):
yeah, well, on Facebook, I'm Megan Hamm. On
Facebook, that is my name, sothat's where I am, and then I
have a bit my Time for A ChangeCounseling has a business page
on Facebook where we shared somemental health tips and just
resources and just differentways of being able to support
not not only your own mentalhealth growth, but how do you
support family members orsupport others that you may know
(43:09):
with that, with mental healthawareness, I'm also on Instagram
and Tiktok as Megan ham, LPC,Hamm is two Ms.
TD Flenaugh (43:21):
Okay, so it's all the links are all in the show
notes so we can get in contactwith Megan and so it sounds like
you have some parentconsultations ahead of time. So
yeah, a link to schedule aswell. Or Well, this is the
question, Are you like online,or you just in Mississippi?
Megan M. Hamm (43:42):
No, so I only practice in Mississippi. I do
do, I do virtual, but you haveto be in Mississippi. But what I
do offer is I also offer parentcoaching, and so if it is
outside of therapy, what I do isI use the book as a basis to
work with parents on how are wereally navigating these
(44:04):
meltdowns? And part of it is wetalk about your responses,
especially the beginning, wetalk about you and your
responses and what that means toyou, and then we get into the
behavior of the child. Becausejust like communication, they
say 90% of communication is nonverbal. I think that 90% of
parenting is the parent'sresponse to the child's
(44:26):
behavior, not always what thekid is doing, but how we respond
to it, right? Yes, yeah. And sothat's my that's how I see life,
that's how I view it. And so Ido parent coaching, but I also
do training consultation toorganizations that work with
parents, foster parents, adoptthe parents, to help staff and
(44:47):
help other parents understandjust different ways of coping
with meltdowns. Love
TD Flenaugh (44:52):
it. Okay. So again, thanks for joining the Falling
for Learning Podcast. Thanks forwatching out there you. Got
value, like, subscribe right anddo something today that your
future adult children will thankyou for thanks again for
supporting the falling forlearning podcast, new episodes
(45:14):
go live every Saturday at 5pmyou can watch us on youtube.com
at falling for learning, orlisten on all major podcast
platforms such as Apple, Google,Audible, Spotify and much more
for more resources, visitfallinginlovewithlearning.com we
(45:38):
really appreciate you. Have awonderful week.
Welcome everyone to the Falling for Learning
(00:02):
Podcast. So glad that you'vejoined us today. We have a
special guest today to reallytalk about what we can do to
support children that havetrauma, what are some ways that
we can make it fun, engaging andhelp them to heal at the same
time and recognize those signs,because some of us have children
(00:24):
that are facing or dealing witha lot emotionally, and we don't
even know and so you want tolike subscribe and sit in and
enjoy this conversation. Hi.
Thank you so much for joiningthe following for learning
podcast. We have this podcast tohelp parents and caregivers with
having the resources, strategiesand tools needed to make sure
(00:46):
that their children are on trackfor learning and to stay on
track for success. Okay, so ourspecial guest today is Megan M
Hamm, so she is a licensedprofessional counselor and a
registered play therapist. Shehas over 16 years working in
(01:10):
mental health, and she's also anAmazon Best selling author who
shows dedication to nurturingIndividual and Family Well Being
through innovative therapeuticpractices at her Mississippi
based practice time for a changecounseling. Megan specializes in
play therapy, trauma and parentchild relationships, providing
(01:36):
transformative care forchildren, adolescents and adults
beyond therapy, she advocatespassionately for mental health
awareness, particularly withinthe African American community,
and serves on several boards andorganizations. Megan's latest
book, The heart of the matter, acompassionate approach to
(02:00):
transforming behaviors in fosterand adoptive children reflects
her commitment to empoweringfamilies to overcome
generational trauma and fosterresilience. Thank you so much
for joining us today. Megan ham,how are you doing?
Megan M. Hamm (02:24):
Thank you so much. I'm doing well, and thank
you for having me on yourpodcast today.
TD Flenaugh (02:30):
Alright, so tell us a little bit. We're in the new
year. This is just like this.
You know, a couple weeks in,how's it going so far with your
new year.
Megan M. Hamm (02:42):
This new year really is going well. I can say
that one of my goals was, isconsistency. And so I have a
couple goals that I'm workingon, and I have consistently did
something toward those goalsevery day. So I'm excited about
that, and I'm excited to keep itgoing, and being able to put
(03:02):
myself in a position where I cancreate the goal, you know, Write
the vision, make it plain, butalso make the consistent small
steps to see the bigger goalcome to pass.
TD Flenaugh (03:14):
That is so cool, right? Exactly, consistency, I
think underlying everyone'slike, you know, their New Year's
resolution, there is that partof whatever that goal is,
consistency is part of that,right? Yeah, awesome. Okay, so
we know you are an expert inmental health and and treating
(03:39):
that. Can you tell us when youas a child, like, what was it
that really got you intolearning? Because obviously you
have to, you know, be good atstudying or be interested in
this area. So what was it thatjust got you into learning in
general as a kid?
Megan M. Hamm (03:58):
I think for me, I think about an experience I had
with my nine times tables. So Iwas in the third grade, and I
had, I was a very I hate to sayI was a smart kid, but things
came really easy to me inschool. I'm gonna say that so I
can sit in the classroom, I canhear the work, I can hear the
teacher, and then I could, youknow, I could bring it back out
(04:20):
on the test. But my nine timestables, I didn't do that. And so
I failed the test for my ninetimes table. I missed my recess.
It was the third grade Iremember vividly. It was the
first time I ever one failed atest, and two missed my recess.
And so in that we had to stay inand we had to write our nine
(04:42):
timetable over and over and overagain. And when I went back to
take the test, of course, Ipassed the test. And so I think
now looking back, that was themoment where I realized that
there was this concept calledlearning. It wasn't just about
sending the class for. Womenlistening, but actually applying
(05:02):
myself to reach a goal. And Ithink the third grade was the
first time that that was ithappened. But of course, when I
was in the third grade, itdidn't make sense then, but now,
as an adult, we can look backand say, Hey, that was the
moment, um, third grade, my ninetimes tables when I failed that
test.
TD Flenaugh (05:21):
Oh, I love that. I mean, you're really talking
about like, making thattransition from just like doing
things easily and then puttingin the effort to make something
happen, wonderful, having
Megan M. Hamm (05:32):
to, having to work for it. Yep, first time,
well, maybe not the first timein life, but that I can vividly
remember, especially as,
TD Flenaugh (05:41):
Wow. Okay, so tell us about some activities or
interest you had as a child thatled to your current work today
as a licensed professionalcounselor.
Megan M. Hamm (05:55):
You know, when I was a when I was a kid, I
definitely was always I like tobe around other children, and I
like to play a lot, even to thepoint where I always I was going
to be a teacher. That was mytrue passion. I was the, you
know, little known fact, when Iwas a teenager in the summertime
(06:18):
in Mississippi, I would get, Iwould get all of my little
cousins, all of my youngercousins. And we had a minivan
and I would go, and I would gopick everybody up, like school
bus and sometimes, and we wouldplay school and we would do,
like regular stuff. We would doBible based activities, but we
would do, like, just schoolwork, and they were seven, eight
(06:40):
years younger than me, and so Iwas, I didn't now, as an adult,
I realized why my aunts were soexcited about me coming to get
their kids for the day, right?
But then I was like, oh,everybody's supporting. Because
my aunts would buy snacks, andwe would have all kind of food
and snacks. It was justeverybody was so supportive. And
so I had my younger cousins, andwe would play school, and I
(07:02):
would be the teacher. And so Ialways my passion was to be a
teacher, until I took a class my12th grade year in high school.
I took psychology, and we wentto we did a field trip in this
class, and we went to a collegecampus to their psychology
department, and I fell in lovewith learning about behavior,
(07:26):
human behavior, and kind of whatmade people tick. And so that's
when I decided not to doeducation, but to go into
psychology. So that was that wasmy role to mental health. Was
taking that psychology classbecause I knew I was going to be
a teacher. That was my calling.
(07:48):
I was going to help the kids, Iwas going to teach, and it just
but now I get to teach on adifferent level, right? So it
all kind of circles back to whatI do today, but it definitely
that's how it started.
TD Flenaugh (08:02):
Wow. Okay, that's amazing. Wow. So as we're
thinking about your story andall of that, like, what, like,
what really is something thatpeople get wrong when it comes
to, like, mental healthawareness, like, what is it that
(08:25):
you notice that people aregetting wrong about kids or even
themselves?
Megan M. Hamm (08:33):
I think the thing, the one thing that I say,
that I have a conversation aboutconsistently, um, especially
with kids, is that they're doingit on purpose, and that they're
trying to manipulate the adultor manipulate the situation. A
lot of times when children arehaving behaviors or they are
acting out as adults, we feellike they shouldn't. They know
(08:57):
better, because you didn't dothis Monday, you didn't do this
Tuesday, so why you cutting upWednesday? Right? So we start to
think that it's intentionalbehavior. Um, I really come from
a place when it comes to when itcomes to children and behaviors
and mental health. I come fromthe place of that behavior is
really a kid's way ofcommunicating when there's a
(09:20):
need that's not being met, andso
TD Flenaugh (09:23):
let me pause you.
So those kids where we might belike, this is just a bad kid, or
this kid, you know, that's justhow they are. This is something
we're getting wrong.
Megan M. Hamm (09:40):
You know, I really don't, I would agree that
we're getting it wrong. I don'tbelieve in bad kids, right?
Because if I believe in badkids, then I have to believe in
bad adults, right? Um, but Ireally feel like there's,
there's some kids who have ahard time to. Getting their
(10:00):
needs met in a way that we seehere we go, a way that society
accepts right? Because if welook at it, if we look at things
that we we typically, most ofthe things that we do or that we
expect are based upon somebodyelse's standard. And if we were
(10:23):
to acknowledge that, acknowledgethat, okay, I'm expecting this
child to act this certain way,um, I always implore and those
adults to say, okay, where doesthat come from? Where did that
start for you? Where did thatexpectation? Where was that
expectation created that this isthe right or wrong way to do or
(10:45):
the right or wrong way tobehave, or the right or wrong
way to act?
TD Flenaugh (10:49):
Okay, so an example of where we are measuring a
reaction or an action in a waythat we could look at it from a
different point of view.
Megan M. Hamm (11:06):
So let's say that you have a child who goes to
school, and let's say they go toschool that morning and they
were really expecting thecafeteria paper said that they
were going to have pancakes forbreakfast and the but the
cafeteria didn't have pancakes.
So it gets to the cafeteria, andall they had was cereal, right?
(11:26):
So they were expecting thepancakes, excited about the
pancakes, but they got cerealfor breakfast, but they were
fed. So then they get to theirfirst period class, they get to
their get to their teacher, andthey're upset, and they're
having a bad day, and it's like,the teacher's like, hey, put
your book sack down. And it'slike, I don't want to, right?
And we're like, you just came toschool. You just, you know, why
(11:49):
are you acting like thisalready? Just Just follow the
directions. Yes, because all theother kids are doing what I told
them to do, and you're notright, and so the kid that's not
doing it becomes the outlier.
Yes, even in all of that, mostkids, let's just, let's just say
this is a second grader. Mostsecond graders are not going to
(12:13):
be able to say, well, MissMegan. I'm disappointed, because
I was expecting pancakes thismorning for breakfast, and all
the cafeteria had was frostedplate. And although I love
frosted plate, that wasn't whatI had wanted to eat this
morning. And so now I'mdisappointed. And so my
disappointment comes out. Andyou're telling me to do
something, and I'm saying, No, Idon't want to do it. And the
(12:36):
thing about that is being in thein the classroom, if that
behavior, if that instance, isan address being, and a teacher
takes it as, Oh, you just aren'tyou don't want to listen. Oh,
it's going to be that kind ofday or this kind of mood you're
in. And of course, as a not, ofcourse, as adults, but as
adults, we tend to match that.
We tend to match that energy.
(12:59):
And I'm the authority, right?
Because I'm the authority,because I told you to do what I
needed you to do, right? Yeah,and do it. You're not going to
make my day harder, becauseeverybody else can do it. So why
won't you just do it? I'm notdoing insult
TD Flenaugh (13:13):
you today,
Megan M. Hamm (13:14):
not today, right?
Today? Yeah. And so when thething about it is, if that's not
addressed in that moment, ifit's not something that we
investigate in that moment, um,if that's not something that we
lean into, it definitely canbecome a power struggle
throughout the day.
TD Flenaugh (13:31):
Wow. So what's your suggestion? Because you're
giving us a classroom example,right? We do have home parents
as well. They they have the timeto take or, you know, daycare
workers, or people are dealingwith several kids, like, what
is, what's the what are somejust suggestions.
Megan M. Hamm (13:53):
So my suggestion is, for us, with that story that
I told you, it's, it's easierfor us to understand it, because
we know the back story, right?
So if we knew that he wantedpancakes and he wasn't able to
get it, and that's why he wasfeeling disappointed, so that's
why I was coming out, and how hewas acting, then we can
necessarily get on his level andsay, hey, I can understand that
(14:16):
pancakes were not an option thismorning. I can understand how
disappointed you are, and we canhelp them work through that. The
reality is we don't always knowthe back story, and so if I
choose to teach, if I choose toapproach behavior as if there's
an unmet need, then I always gofrom the approach that something
(14:39):
has happened, I always go tofrom the approach that, you
know, we are all going throughsomething, and that is, that's
the trauma informed approachthat we often right now people
are throwing around. You know,trauma is a buzzword. Trauma
Informed is a buzzword. Youknow, the reality is, for me.
Trauma informed simply meansthat I go through stuff on a
(15:01):
daily basis, so I know that yougo through stuff on a daily
basis, and I choose to show yougrace. I don't assume the worst
when you and I have aninteraction that doesn't line up
with what I need from you inthis moment. And so if that
happens,
TD Flenaugh (15:19):
let's just pause there like that. I think we just
need to let that sink in, likethe trauma informed way is
really coming, not from okay,this kid is giving me a problem
again today, or I just met thiskid, and this kid obviously is
going to be a problem, right?
But instead thinking this kid ishaving some kind of challenge,
(15:42):
something happened, and we needto figure out what that
challenge is so that we can helpthem move forward in a
productive way.
Megan M. Hamm (15:53):
Yeah, and I think that's a that's a big part of
it. One of the things that I dodifferently in my practice is I
don't, and I tell parents thisfrom the beginning. If they
don't have to tell me the story,I don't have to know the why, to
meet you where you are, to giveyou grace. Right? A lot of times
in our society, we feel as a asan individual, we feel more
(16:17):
comfortable when we know thewhy, right. Think about if you
interacted with somebody who akid who just lost their mom, we
show them a lot of grace in theclassroom. Let's just be real.
We do we show them a lot ofgrace, we give them a lot of
support. We give them a lot ofresources, because we know they
(16:37):
just lost their mom, or they hada big loss. Let's say we have a
kid that's dealing withsomething just as big in their
life that we don't know about.
We don't always offer them thesame grades. My, my, I implore
people, let's just offereverybody the grace as if they
just had a big loss, because wemay not know the thing that
(16:58):
they're dealing with. Okay, soit doesn't mean
TD Flenaugh (17:03):
we're gonna go into a break and we will get into it.
Okay, all over the UnitedStates, 75% of children don't
know how to write. Well, addthat to the fact that so many
people out there are trying tosilence the voices of those who
have been oppressed and tryingto prevent them from telling
(17:24):
their story. Who's going to tellyour story if your child doesn't
know how to write? Well, I havetwo books to address this issue,
the rewrite method and therewrite method workbook pretend
to make sure that parents knowwhat to do, that educators know
what to do to get their childrento write better and just not
write better, but love to write.
Make sure that your nextgeneration could tell their
(17:47):
story and they won't besilenced. Go to falling for
learning.com today to purchaseyour set. Okay, we're back such
important gems being droppedright now by Megan ham, alright,
like just really changing thatperspective. Um, so, you know,
(18:08):
we kind of had a little breakthere. Can you take us back to,
you know, if someone has, weknow, they just had a big loss.
We give them a lot of person, wegotta give them a lot of grace.
And then how we could shift theperspective to giving everyone
that grace. Because, of course,we don't know what's going on
(18:29):
with everybody.
Megan M. Hamm (18:32):
And so one of the things that I definitely feel
like I approach life, and Iapproach people, and I teach my
parents this as well, being ableto give grace. And I say give
grace, but what I really mean isbeing very intentional in the
words that we use when we'retalking to our kids, when we're
talking to other kids about justsome of the things, even if it's
(18:54):
their behavior, we can, we candirectly address a child's
behavior and be intentional inthe words that we use, that we
don't add additional shame andguilt to what happened, um, a
lot. And when I'm working withparents, I tell them, let's say
your child did get in trouble,let's let's say your child had a
big behavior and, oh, they wereat home. I've been at home my
(19:18):
kids, you know, it's been thebreak, so you've been at home
with me, right? Um, so let's getinto the fact that sometimes my,
even my kids, have bigbehaviors. That doesn't mean
that. The other day, we were athome and I had redirected my
daughter. I wouldn't even say,redirect it. I told her to get
up and get a room clean, youknow? So, hey, we're at home,
we're we're chilling, but I'mlike, Hey, let's go on to get
(19:40):
this this room clean. And shegot up, and she was huffing and
puffing and storming. I'm look,I'm thinking like, oh, because I
asked you to get your room cleanRight, right? My first response,
honestly, my initial thoughtwas, why is she playing with me?
But then I had to realize. Thatwas a me. Thing had nothing to
(20:02):
do with her, and her intentionwas not to play with me, right?
Her intention was, I'm sittingwell, I can't say what her
intention was, but I'm sittinghere, we're watching this TV
show, and in the middle of medoing nothing, you're asking me
to do something. So what I'velearned to do even with my own
kids, it's, I give them thatadjustment period, right? I give
(20:23):
them time to adjust to what I'masking them to do. It's not
like, Oh, you got to get up,right? Now, I remember, you
know, in past generations when,when the adult called your name,
you should already be up and onyour way to them, you don't even
know what they're asking youyet. And so we come from that
mindset of you are a child, whenI call your name, why are you
(20:43):
not on your way? And so I haveto in my household, I have to
let go of that, because for me,that was seen as a way of trying
to be in control and trying tobe and having the power. And I
realized that my power doesn'tcome in the way I my power
doesn't come and how I what Isay, but how I choose to respond
(21:05):
to my kids and to just thingsthat are going on. And so one of
the things I always encourageparents is your words. Be very
intentional with your words.
What are the things that,course, things.
TD Flenaugh (21:17):
This is a paradigm shift you want parents to, you
know, break that thing, whereasI get up and go when I say it,
don't question, it, don't havean attitude. And so instead, an
adjustment period. So would itbe like, Okay, after we watch
(21:39):
this show, I want us to get upand clean, you know, I need to
get up and clean the room now.
Megan M. Hamm (21:47):
Yeah, it could be. And it depends, it depends
on your child, because some kidsdo better with, um, after we
watch this show, we'll get upand we'll clean up. Some
children do better with, hey, Ineed this clean by a certain
time. I'm saying as mom, beforewe lay our head down at 930
tonight, the expectation is yourroom is clean. Some children
(22:09):
work better in that having thatautonomy and having the freedom
to do it as they choose. Mykids, on the other hand, it's
more like, let's go on to get itdone when you first get up,
because they sometimes. Somekids have a hard time
transitioning and adjusting. Andyou have to know that about the
kids that you're working with,whether it's your kid at home,
(22:31):
some kids do well with playingand then coming in and getting
their work done. Some kids, ifyou let them go outside and
play, when they come in, they'renot going to want to get their
work done, so they may have toget the work done first and play
as the incentive to get it done.
So it's really just knowing yourkid, and I think with words,
adjusting how you say it, notjust saying it from, hey, I'm
(22:52):
Mom, I'm the authority. I say,get it done. Get it done. You
get it figured out. But goingfrom the perspective of, hey,
you know, for my kids, I didhave to go back and say, Megan,
we are in the middle of a TVshow. So why did that just cross
your mind in that moment? Right?
Because, if we're being honest,sometimes as the adults, we can
(23:14):
be the trigger, right? Becausewe we could have waited 15
minutes to show it off. Butthere was something in my mind,
in that moment, like, Man, this,these rooms gotta get clean, um,
and in those times I do, I am atthe place where I will go and
say, You know what? We can waittill the show goes off. That's
fine. And I also help my kids tounderstand it's not because you
(23:36):
responded the way you responded.
Because I don't want you tothink that because you started
storming off that I changed mymind. But what I want you to
know is that I realize that wecan't wait till the show goes
off. I think that's an importantpiece as well, because a lot of
things that we do in life andchildren is learned behavior. I
don't want my kids to think thatif I ask them to do something,
(23:57):
they get up and start stormingoff. Then right after that, I
changed my mind. Then they'regoing to connect that. Oh, I
could just throw em off, and shegoing to, she going to change
your mind, yes. And so that'sthe importance of using our
words too, as adults to say,hey, you know what? Now that
I've thought about it, it's notbecause of how you responded,
but now that I thought about it,that is something that could
(24:20):
wait the next couple minutes.
TD Flenaugh (24:22):
Okay, but tell me, how do you deal with that
response, though? Like, Iunderstand you're saying it's
not because of that response.
But what do I say? Like, youknow, trying to be handle it in
a healthier way, a moreproductive way. What do I say
about the huffing, huffing andall that.
Megan M. Hamm (24:42):
Yeah, so that's a good one, right? Because for
parents or adults working withchildren, it's oftentimes seen
as disrespectful, right? Um, oneof the the when I'm working with
parents, one of the first thingsthat I work with parents on you.
Is we talk about their personalbut because ultimately, I can't
(25:05):
control what some how somebodyelse chooses to respond, and I
have let go of the need to tryto control or try to have power
over somebody else's behavior.
The only thing I can control ishow I respond. And so in my
household, we set anexpectation, right? And so the
expectation is, like, I don'tallow my kids to. I'm not going
(25:26):
to say I allow my kids to. It'sweird, because I don't allow my
kids to be disrespectful. Like,we don't go in there. They're
not cussing me, or they're notbeing disrespectful, right? But
when my child has a responselike that, I allow her time to
adjust with my words, I willsay, hey, that that maybe didn't
have to be the response you hadto me asking you to do
(25:49):
something. I allow them toadjust, but I know my personal
buttons for me. That doesn'tbother me, but slamming the
door, oh, that gets meunraveled, right? That'll
unravel me fast if you slam adoor. Um, so I think the first
thing I would definitely tellparents is being able to be
aware of their own personalbuttons, but also to already
have the expectation in placeand be able to redirect without
(26:13):
the emotion. So if I allow,
TD Flenaugh (26:18):
you're just saying so you're saying because I'm
like, my mind is just going, asyou're talking, like, not to
have a control or power, like,well, as a parent, right? We
supposed to have the controlpros, have the power, um, but
you, you know, you're addressingsome of that. But one of the
things that I'm hearing is, youknow, what's your personal
(26:40):
button and be expected, right?
Expect my kids going to slam thedoor. I don't like that, so how
am I going to handle it in aproductive way? Right? Because,
of course, I slam the door, you,you know, yell at me or
whatever, like it's justescalating, right? Um, so, like,
gotta have a moment to sit withthese things, because it's like,
(27:06):
no, I'm in control. I'mempowered, right? And so it
takes a moment to kind of thinkabout and adjust these things,
right? Because, yes, if you areslamming the door, and my
response, that's my personalbutton, right? Like you were
saying, and and my response isjust like, over the top, or I'm
(27:27):
going off, you know, it's gonna,it's gonna get bad, right? Um,
but preparing for that ahead oftime, like, if they slam the
door, do you tell your kidthat's your personal button?
Like, look, don't, don't slamthe door. Makes me so mad. Or,
like, what do you
Megan M. Hamm (27:49):
and the thing is, my kid, I have a conversation
with my kids, and I teachparents. It's about having a
conversation to say, hey, we cango through all of the words in
the dictionary. Like, for me,personally, words do not bother
me. They're not many words mykids can say that will push my
button because words don'tbother me, and it may be partly
because I'm a therapist, and soI hear all kind of stuff every
(28:12):
day too, but I understand that'smy personal parenting button is
slamming the door, and I letthem know, Hey, we can do all of
this. Slamming the door is outthe question, we're not going to
slam the door. And if they slamthe door, there's a there's an
expectation to not slam thedoor, and there's a consequence
if they do that, I havecompletely taken myself out of
(28:33):
because there's nothing wrongwith as a parent, when I find
myself getting upset or if we'rein this power struggle, you
know, sometimes I can get to thepoint where I recognize I'm in
that power struggle, and I stepaway, I do the thing that I'm
trying to teach my kid to do,right? I will say, You know
(28:53):
what? We're going to put a pausein it. I'm going to take a
break, and I go take me somedeep breaths, and we'll come
back to it. But a lot of timestaking a break is seen as I've
lost, or I'm giving up, orthere's a weakness involved. And
as parents, when we're in themiddle of something like that,
we don't want the kid to thinkthat they won. And so a lot of
(29:14):
this, you know, one of thethings that I work with is when
I'm talking to people and I'mlike, Oh, it's a lot of it's a
lot about what the parent isdoing, because ultimately,
that's the only, the only personwe can control in any situation
is who. Yes, it's ourselves. Andthe thing is, we teach our kids
that, you know, we teach ourkids in the classroom or at
(29:36):
school, and they'll be like,well, somebody said something to
me, or I hear kids say all thetime, well, the reason I got in
trouble because he hit me firstand I hit him back, or he said
something to make me mad, so Ifelt like I was justified in
being mad and real quick to say,Hey, you can't control what
other people say and do. You canonly control yourself. But
that's the same thing when wegrow up. It's the same thing
(29:59):
when we grow up and become.
Parents, you know, I can't mybehavior and my presence and my
responses can influence my kidsbehaviors, but me just standing
there and whooping them all day,or me standing there and yelling
all day is not what's makingthem stop the behavior. Because
if that was the Do you like,what
TD Flenaugh (30:20):
do you like? What do you what do you think about?
Like, corporal punishment,whooping, all that. Like, is
that something that is like? Iknow, like, some give me your
thoughts. I don't know.
Megan M. Hamm (30:33):
So I firmly believe, and this is just in
life. So I believe that weanything that we choose to do if
we are doing it from a place ofheal, from being healed, and not
from a place of being hurt. I'mnot the person to judge your
action, right? I'm never goingto tell a parent not to whoop
(30:53):
their child or to whoop theirchild when it comes to whooping.
I definitely, you know, comefrom the perspective of, you
know, I offer suggestions, but Idon't necessarily tell people
what to do and what not to do intheir own home. Um, but whenever
any thing that you do when itcomes to parenting or whatever
it is, I come from theperspective of, are you doing it
(31:16):
from a place of being healed?
Are you coming from a place ofbeing hurt? And what is your
intention behind the behavior?
If we lived our life trying tofigure out why we do the things
that we do and what makes ustick that it would it would
probably change 79% of thingsthat we do. 79% is so random.
It's not research based. It'sjust my thoughts. But um, a lot
(31:37):
of times, especially whenparents come in, they're telling
me that they are whooping.
They're like they areconsistent. I talk to parents
who you know, they're findingthemselves whooping their
children on a daily basis, orthey're finding themselves
they're whooping the kid, andthen grandma's whooping the kid,
and the kid is getting multiplewhoopings a day. And I asked
them,
TD Flenaugh (31:58):
hold on, so the whooping style as a therapist, I
know, like, you know, you'reprobably a mandated reporter. Am
I right?
Megan M. Hamm (32:07):
I am. I'm a mandated reporter. So
TD Flenaugh (32:11):
I like that you're saying that people can talk
about because I feel like that'sanother barrier to like black
people going to therapy, becauseof them are within their
children. And then certaintherapists this automatic, like,
I'm calling your whooping kids,right? And so, but I know that
there's a limit, right? There's,like, because, of course, we
(32:33):
know that there's a spectrum ofwhooping. I could just pop your
hand, right? Yeah, I could, youknow, pop that, but a couple
times, you know, you could have,like, a wooden spoon, extension
cord, like, I don't know, like,what, where is it that you have
to report? Because I know thereare sometimes you have to
(32:53):
report, but me just saying I'mwith my kid or something, you
know, and you understand theculture a little better as an
African American woman, so what?
Where's that line?
Megan M. Hamm (33:06):
And I honestly, well, we go into detail. So I
definitely ask them to explainand most of the point when I'm
asking them to explain it, I'mgoing to see their responses and
what they're doing versus whatthe kid is doing. And so if a
parent is telling me thatthey're getting a belt and
they're whooping their kids,that's not anything I need to
report to DHS. But you can't sithere and tell me, Well, you
(33:28):
know, I had the belt and hebowled up and I had to box him
down like, you know, we're notthat conversation. We have it
but, or that's a differentconversation we're having. But
one of the things I encourage myparents is, if you have
consistently, if you felt likeyou've had to whoop this child
since he was three, now he'seight, if you had to whoop him
(33:50):
every day, give me 30 days withno whooping, and you do
something different that I'masking you to do, and we'll see.
If let's see, we'll see adifference. Because right now, I
tip of all the time, clearly,daily whoopings ain't working
because you wouldn't have to doit every day, right? If this was
something that was effective, wewouldn't be having to do it
(34:11):
every day, several times a day.
So let's try something. We'vetried that for the last two,
three years. We've tried it. Ithadn't worked as well as we
wanted to so let's, let's trysomething else. And I think
typically, when I come from thatperspective of it, a lot of
times I've seen where parentswill not choose, they won't
choose the whoop and thephysical discipline as the
(34:34):
primary okay. Now sometimes I dohave to get with parents, and
have to be real, real honestabout why, you know, and say,
Hey, you're whooping them notbecause of something they're
doing, but because you'refrustrated. And that's how you
take power back in yourhousehold. It's the physical
discipline of it. And I've hadconversation with parents too,
(34:55):
and this is a this is topic thatpeople don't want to talk about,
but it is what it. Is right. AndI've said, if you came home and
your spouse told you that yougot you got rolled up at work
today because you didn't dosomething at work, and their
response was, I'm going to whoopyou so that you don't do that
behavior tomorrow at school.
(35:16):
Would that be appropriate? So atwhat age? At what age does the
power struggle stop? You know,the people like, oh, that's
different. How we have oneperson that is using physical
discipline to stop a behavior inanother person. What makes it
different? And a lot of timespeople, and I've had people
(35:37):
like, no, that's not the samething. I want to talk about.
That's fine. We don't have totalk about it. All I'm talking
about is one person usingphysical discipline to stop a
behavior in somebody else,right? Let's take away the age.
Let's take away therelationship. Let's talk about
the behavior. And so for me, Idefinitely have conversations.
I've had to have conversationswith parents about because it's
(36:00):
hard to build a relationship.
Now, the therapeutic part of itis it's hard to build a trusting
relationship with somebody thatyou are physically hitting that
you are physically because atthe end of the day, the whooping
hurt. That's the purpose ofthem, is to inflict the pain,
right? The purpose is not toteach you. The purpose is not
(36:21):
I'm whooping you because I loveyou, I love you, and I want you
to do better, and so I'm doingwhat I know, what I think is
going to work and going to makeyou do better, okay? But the
reality is that's stillphysically hurting somebody,
yes, um, so, Mm, hmm,
TD Flenaugh (36:38):
so, so, bringing it back. I'm feeling a little
relief, right? I'm feeling alittle okay, because what I'm
hearing is, if I'm a parentwhooping my child, I can tell
you as my therapist, and you'renot automatically going to call,
you know, Child ProtectiveServices or, you know, whatever
(37:01):
they call it in your state orarea. But you want to get to the
root of the issue. You want totalk about, what's happening.
You're going to work with me tofigure out, like, what else can
be done that's effective ingetting your child to improve.
We're going to talk about, youknow, different perspectives
(37:22):
relationships, and so I'mfeeling a little relief, because
I just hear this as a barrierover and over and over again,
like, therapists are going toturn you in for using physical
corporal punishment against yourKid, which is very normal. Like,
that's what people do in blackhouseholds, or, you know, and
(37:45):
not even just black households,a lot of households, right, you
know? And so you're not saying,like, automatically you
shouldn't do that. You aretalking through and talking
about effective, talking aboutbuilding relationship. So I feel
a little relief, right? BecauseI feel like it's so hard, like I
(38:07):
don't want to get help, becauseI don't want to be reported on,
right? But I do need help, butam I going to lose my kids?
Right? So that's a that's such areal threat in black families.
And we know like statistics arelike black families, black
mothers or whatever, parents aremore likely to get their kids
(38:28):
removed in certain situations.
Um, but I don't know. I just hadto like that just feels so much
better. And
Megan M. Hamm (38:36):
I'm glad you said that, because that's definitely
a PERS, I guess, a perspectivethat because, I guess because I
am a black therapist, andbecause I am in private
practice, a lot of times whenpeople come to me, a lot of that
fear has already just beenbecause we've talked already on
the phone about things likeduring the consultation. So I
(38:57):
think what happens is a lot ofthose barriers have already been
we've already broke down some ofthose barriers. So I think I
might even do a training onwhooping. What is the what are
the legal implications? Like,when does it become aggressive?
Too much? Um, because a lot oftimes parents don't understand
that. I'm I'm not going to tellyou not to my job is not to tell
(39:20):
you what to do is to educate youon the implications of what you
are doing. And as a parent,child relationship expert, my
job is to help you understandwhy you're doing it. It's not
about what the kid done. I wantto know what drove you to the
point where you felt like thatwas your that was the next
option for you, because if youare making that decision from a
(39:44):
well informed, educated point,then who am I to take that away
from you? But nine times out of10, once I educate parents on
it, and once we have thoseconversations, they I, I. If I
could, I, you know, I've never,I've done, not done the research
on it, but most of my parents,I've never had a parent come
(40:08):
back and say, I've doneeverything you said, and I still
have to whoop them every day.
Okay? I've never had a parentcome tell me yet. Now, I have
had a parent. I have had aparent or two who was like, this
is foolish. This is this foolstuff you talking about. And
they kind of, you know, theyall, they'll, they don't want to
do the parent consultations asmuch. It's like, I need you to
(40:29):
fix him. I need you to fix them.
And honestly, those parentsdon't stay in therapy for long
with me, because after I've seenthe kid, and then it's time to
do parent consultation, and youcancel. Oh, I can't. I don't
need to see him. I need to seeyou like you. Let me know when
your schedule is available, andwe'll make it work. Okay,
TD Flenaugh (40:50):
so this is what it is. Okay. I mean that I can't
just expect you to fix my child.
You're not the child mechanic.
That's the not what we do. Youcan't just fix my child. I need
to do some reflection. I need todo some work. I need to, you
know, work on my communication,or my tactics, my techniques. So
(41:16):
it's not just, I'm going to dropyour kid off or whatever, an
hour every week they're going toget better. She fixed it. It's
really about working togetherand and also, what you're saying
is I, some of it is about yourindividual child. So again, it's
not like just read it in a book,follow this manual. Okay, so I
(41:40):
love I feel like so much relief.
You know, my daughter is grownnow, but definitely we've had
some situations. I had her incounseling. I did have somebody
report on me, like, everythingcame out. Okay, it's scary. So
it is scary, and I understandwhy people don't want to get
help, like I've articulate,there's a lot of things about
(42:04):
me, right, that I things cameout okay for me, right? But I
know that some people, itdoesn't, and I just I
understand, right? And so I somuch for coming to our show,
helping us out, helping us tothink about things, talk about
your approach. It's soimportant. So where can people
(42:27):
find you? I know you have yourbook, we're gonna we have the
link in the show notes for yourbook so we could buy that and
what else like. Where can wefind you, on social media and
all of those things,
Unknown (42:45):
yeah, well, on Facebook, I'm Megan Hamm. On
Facebook, that is my name, sothat's where I am, and then I
have a bit my Time for A ChangeCounseling has a business page
on Facebook where we shared somemental health tips and just
resources and just differentways of being able to support
not not only your own mentalhealth growth, but how do you
support family members orsupport others that you may know
(43:09):
with that, with mental healthawareness, I'm also on Instagram
and Tiktok as Megan ham, LPC,Hamm is two Ms.
TD Flenaugh (43:21):
Okay, so it's all the links are all in the show
notes so we can get in contactwith Megan and so it sounds like
you have some parentconsultations ahead of time. So
yeah, a link to schedule aswell. Or Well, this is the
question, Are you like online,or you just in Mississippi?
Megan M. Hamm (43:42):
No, so I only practice in Mississippi. I do
do, I do virtual, but you haveto be in Mississippi. But what I
do offer is I also offer parentcoaching, and so if it is
outside of therapy, what I do isI use the book as a basis to
work with parents on how are wereally navigating these
(44:04):
meltdowns? And part of it is wetalk about your responses,
especially the beginning, wetalk about you and your
responses and what that means toyou, and then we get into the
behavior of the child. Becausejust like communication, they
say 90% of communication is nonverbal. I think that 90% of
parenting is the parent'sresponse to the child's
(44:26):
behavior, not always what thekid is doing, but how we respond
to it, right? Yes, yeah. And sothat's my that's how I see life,
that's how I view it. And so Ido parent coaching, but I also
do training consultation toorganizations that work with
parents, foster parents, adoptthe parents, to help staff and
(44:47):
help other parents understandjust different ways of coping
with meltdowns. Love
TD Flenaugh (44:52):
it. Okay. So again, thanks for joining the Falling
for Learning Podcast. Thanks forwatching out there you. Got
value, like, subscribe right anddo something today that your
future adult children will thankyou for thanks again for
supporting the falling forlearning podcast, new episodes
(45:14):
go live every Saturday at 5pmyou can watch us on youtube.com
at falling for learning, orlisten on all major podcast
platforms such as Apple, Google,Audible, Spotify and much more
for more resources, visitfallinginlovewithlearning.com we
(45:38):
really appreciate you. Have awonderful week.
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