March 19, 2025 • 50 mins
Unveiling the Womb: The Role of Women in Shaping Society through Faith and Scholarship
In the inaugural 2025 episode of 'Family Ties: A Prescription for Society,' co-host Faridah Abdul-Tawwab Brown welcomes her twin sister, Dr. Fatima Fanusie, a historian specializing in 19th and 20th-century American religion. The episode focuses on women’s pivotal role within family and society, especially during Ramadan and Women's History Month. Key topics include the scriptural foundation for nurturing families, the integration of scholarship with practical life, and the historic and contemporary impact of the Nation of Islam on African American religious identity. Dr. Fanusie gives practical advice for parents on incorporating a broad, historically grounded education for their children to foster a well-rounded understanding of humanity. The episode emphasizes the importance of the human soul's identity grounded in scripture, the responsibility of educating young people within the family context, and the enduring influence of African American religious movements.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:16 Guest Introduction: Dr. Fatima Fanusie
02:34 The Role of Women in Society and Family
04:10 Scholarship and Education in Modern Society
17:45 Historical Context of African American Islam
21:34 The Nation of Islam's Influence
34:08 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions
47:48 Final Remarks and Practical Advice
This podcast is about family life as a means to address current problems in American society. A scripture based African American perspective.
Welcome to The Family Ties, a Prescription for Society.
Through this experience we invite you to join us in an exploration of the concept of family ties as a prescription for society.
YOUR HOSTS: Faridah Abdul-Tawwab Brown
This episode was edited by Darryl D Anderson of AMG - Ambassador Media Group visit https://www.ambassador-mediagroup.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Faridah (00:15):
Peace be upon the family.
As we welcome you to anotherexperience of the family ties, a
prescription for society.
We thank you for joining us forour very first episode of 2025.
I am your co host, Farida AbdulTawa Brown.
My co host, Frank Abdul Shahid,is on leave for several
(00:35):
episodes, and while his presenceis greatly missed, we will
continue our shared commitmenthere at the podcast to bring the
family into focus as aprescription for what is ailing
our contemporary society.
Today, we have an exciting andthought provoking episode in
store for you as we sit downwith our guest, Dr.
(00:55):
Fatima Fanusi, for a wideranging conversation,
illuminating the role of womenas wounds of the mind and how
this role within the family andsociety is critical for the
human family.
Before we get started, don'tforget to subscribe so you can
stay up to date and get all thelatest episodes.
(01:16):
Born and raised in Dorchester,Massachusetts, Fatima Fanousi is
a historian of 19th and 20thcentury American religion whose
research is an involvingreappraisal of the study of
African American Islam, themodern civil rights movement,
and Islam in the West.
She is currently residing inMedina by Senegal in West Africa
(01:37):
while on sabbatical with theInstitute for Islamic Studies.
Christian and Jewish Studies inTowson, Maryland.
Fatim is a lecturer in theIslamic Studies Department at
Johns Hopkins University inBaltimore, Maryland, and a
historian, consultant, andarchivist for the Howard Thurman
Historical Home in DaytonaBeach, Florida.
Dr.
Fanousi received her B.
(01:58):
A.
in history and Arabic fromLincoln University in
Pennsylvania, her math MA inAmerican history from Tufts
University and her PhD inAmerican history from Howard
University.
Dr.
Fonusi, welcome to the show.
Fanusie (02:13):
Welcome and thank you for having me.
And
Faridah (02:16):
I, I must say as a caveat, Dr.
Fonusi is not only agroundbreaking historian, but
she also happens to be my twinsister.
So it is an absolute pleasureand delight to have you on the
show.
Fanusie (02:28):
I'm so grateful to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Faridah (02:33):
Wonderful.
So we are in the midst of themonth of Ramadan for our
listeners for Muslims.
We are fasting this month andfocusing on the word of God, on
scripture.
And This is also Women's HistoryMonth.
So it's a month in which boththe Word of God is in focus for
believers, and it's also a monththat we reflect deeply on the
(02:55):
role of women as mothers in ourfamilies and also as mothers in
society.
And so, beginning there, I'djust like for our listening
audience to review whatscripture says.
In the Qur'an, it says there's apassage where God speaks to
mankind, and he says, O mankind,be conscious, reverence your
(03:16):
guardian Lord and the wombs,because God is ever watching
over you.
And in Psalms 127.
3 we hear, Behold, children area heritage from the Lord, the
fruit of the womb, a reward.
And he also says in Job 31.
15, did he not?
make me in the womb?
And did he not fashion us in thewomb?
(03:37):
And so coming from a specificunderstanding of man or the
human being as the mind andwoman as the womb of the mind,
I'd like to ask you, Dr.
Fonusi, we're living in acomplex time and in a complex
society.
How should the family look atscholarship in their efforts to
produce in the development ofcommunity life specifically to
(04:00):
be able to qualify?
and or to have the correctsensitivities to manage the
resources that give life to acommunity.
Fanusie (04:09):
Yeah.
So the society that we live in,the the, the, the way that we
should look at scholarship forme, that, that, that's an
interesting question because wethink about scholarship often as
something that is remote fromeveryday life.
And we even have this concept ofan ivory tower.
And we have this, this, thisdisjunction knowledge itself is,
is siphoned and separated.
(04:30):
And we, we, we give it to, tothe young, even the students in
our society in, in measuredamounts.
But in a way that where theknowledge is rootless, so often
often when young people arereceiving information or
knowledge, they cannot connectwith it and it does not make
sense to them and they thereforecannot relate and if they cannot
(04:54):
relate, then they do not see thevalue in it.
And so before we even get intothis, I'll just.
Share a quick anecdote that myson who is, is now 23, but when
he was about 13 or 14, I, heobserved me having a
conversation with some friendswhere I was talking to them and
I mentioned, well, you know,our, our children go to school
(05:16):
to learn.
And my son stopped me at thistime, he was a public school
student and he stopped me, youknow, with great consternation
and was like, What did you justsay?
And I said, you know, we go toschool, you, you all go to
school to learn.
And he was like no, we don't.
And there was a mixture.
He's a very respectful youngman.
So he was trying not to bedisrespectful, but he was like
looking at me like, what in theworld is my mother saying?
She knows better than this.
(05:36):
And I was like, well, what doyou go to school to do?
And he said, we go to school toget good grades.
And then I said, well, when doyou learn?
And he said, in my free time.
And so that really was that,that, that was.
It's kind of powerful comingfrom a 13 year old.
But the reason I bring it up inthe context of your question is
about how we should look atscholarship is because one of
(05:59):
the things, and I imagine thatAs, as scholars of religion and
knowledge and as learned peoplewithin Christian and Muslim and
Jewish communities, theAbrahamic faiths in this
country, there's so many deepanswers to this and so many
different directions you can goin.
I am just coming as a historian,so I'll try to answer that
question to the best of myability, but I would say the
(06:21):
first thing that needs to Tohappen is to begin with a
framework that is, that is, iscoming out of scripture.
And I know there are many in the21st century who might look and
I look at me escape.
Well, what do you mean?
Like we've gone beyond that,especially, you know, we've,
we've, we've evolved beyondlooking at things from a
literal.
Scriptural perspective that thatis literal.
(06:43):
But what I mean by that is, atleast for Muslims, beginning
with a Quranic framework orChristians beginning with a
framework rooted in theknowledge of the scripture, the
knowledge that is divine and forJews beginning with the
knowledge that is in the Torah.
If you go back to what you weresaying about the womb a baby
does not just come intoexistence.
(07:04):
So we as women, we're nurturersand we have this gestation
period.
And when we're in that gestationperiod, before we actually give
birth, we are responsible fornourishing and feeding that life
that is growing inside them.
And so what I would advocate toparents is to make sure that
you're beginning with aframework that that supports.
(07:26):
A wide array of all theknowledge that your children
and, and that you might everbegin to study or embark on and
the literature, et cetera, basedupon what is politically or
socially invade in vogue.
Avoid following the whims ofcancel culture.
Young school age Children.
I mean, at the moment thatChildren are able to pay
attention and to have storiesread to them, whether it's
(07:49):
picture books or whether it'sshort stories or or just
pictures.
And you are as you go along themoment that Children are the
timelines, timelines of worldhistory.
That's something that we used todo as as as educated people in
civilized societies.
And it's something that we don'tdo as much.
To children from a very youngage to the timelines of world
(08:11):
history, and then to continueforcing these timelines to flesh
out these times, which is your,your, your young people age.
And again, if we go back tothat, that whole understanding
of of.
Think about it as you're theyoung child, the young children,
you're nurturing and helpingthem to and also would continue
to fuel them to adjust them on asteady diet you also want to
(08:31):
make sure that you're givingyour child, you're introducing
them to this, this entiretimeline of world history so
that they're not jointed whenthey finally enter school,
especially at the older gradesin the middle school and high
school and onto college, butthat they have a whole connected
picture of humanity and whathuman civilization, what human
civilization is.
(08:52):
That's my first piece of adviceto introduce that timeline of
religions to young children andand also not to depend on
external here.
I'm sure there's a number ofyoung of parents today who
choose to homeschool.
I, my children were mainly in,in, in private Islamic schools
and then public so just.
Knowing that you don't ever, nomatter what your school
(09:14):
environment is, you don't wantto depend on external schooling.
This scholarship, thisunderstanding of, of, of how
societies work, how history hasevolved, begins with you.
And in order to cultivate,whether your child is going to
become a professional historianor a biologist or a chemist,
feel I mean, and love, becausethat's the priorities of the
human family.
So to know history that thetribal history, I think history,
(09:36):
the small history, understandthat in order to love
themselves, but also as aparticularistic aspect of the,
the global That's the, I guessthe, the, and, and, and if I
could just quickly try to bringthat to this present moment of
the complex society that we livein today, I would dare to, to,
to argue or venture of Americanstoday who see themselves as
(09:58):
disconnected from people whothink or worship.
That of values I would say thatmost of most of us who are in
that category, we're neverexposed to a timeline that
includes all of of of worldhistories and but then when we
have a or even the second, buthand in hand with a timeline of
(10:20):
world religion about human,human societies and human
history have gone hand in hand.
So you.
Where the flourish of humanintellect and human society, you
also have a religion orderingthat society with a scripture
that that originated with thecreator.
And, you know, through thesuccessive generations, the
people may move closer to orfurther away from that.
(10:42):
But everything by humancivilizations intricately tied
to world religions.
And by that, we mean thatintricately tied.
Faridah (10:48):
Wow, you gave us so much food for thought and you
know, it almost makes one wantto go back and do it all over
again, but I think that ship hassailed for me.
So hopefully you know,grandchildren, yes,
grandchildren, but I, I want togo back to something you said
you said that we begin with afoundation of scripture and that
(11:09):
when we study.
The human when we study humanhistory and the history of
religion that we're giving forour Children, a scaffold of
sorts, imagining human life isplant life.
We've got this this scaffoldupon which the vine and the
plant can grow.
That is expansive and universal.
So we're not.
So even though we begin with aparticularistic identity, let's
(11:30):
say our ethnic identity or evenour own families our family, you
know, our family history andidentity that is giving when we
grounded in scripture, afoundation of scripture, you are
pointing to our most importantidentity, which is that of the
human soul.
And I want to, would like tostop there for a moment and ask
in your experience as ahistorian and given the advice
(11:52):
that you've just given, howimportant is it?
That, that, This identity of thehuman being is being part of a
human family and having anessential nature.
How important is that in thisday and age when it comes to
shaping and forming the identityof the young person?
Fanusie (12:09):
I've got to tell you, I said that is critical I think in
order to have civilizationwhether they're whether we agree
with the form of governing ornot, when we see the growth, we
see.
A group coming from that narrow,that particularistic that you
were talking about, you know,whether it's a tribe or a unit,
(12:30):
in hindsight, we call themempire or whatever, but the one
that are deemed the greatest byhistorians and by greatest, I
mean, the ones that leave themost enduring legacy for the
profit, the benefit of humanity.
Are the ones that branchfurthest out.
So you think about the RomanEmpire, you think about the
Greek, you think about
Faridah (12:47):
Egyptian.
Yes,
Fanusie (12:49):
you basically geographically, they're, they,
they have fingers.
The come into conquest andconquering or incorporating new
people in, into, you have toengage.
You have to, so that.
That image in the tentacles, Ican almost think of these human
(13:10):
civilizations flowing forth likeplants and, and, and, and, and
themselves like ivy and so youdo have this, if we think about
it today in the 20th century,we're all consumed with the idea
of DNA and tracing our roots.
So if you think about it, likethe, the DNA trees and diagrams
that you see again, all the, thecultivation of human society by
(13:32):
human beings.
And by human beings and notseparately because, because
according to what God put it,put us on the earth to.
And when that happens, there's apattern where there's this
oneness.
There's this, this, this, this,this, this, this coming out of
(13:53):
many distinct groups comes one,comes one empire.
And you learn from, it remindsme of a Quranic a verse where
God is saying in the scripturewe have made you different into
different tribes, differentIans, working together with
living together with traveling,and that was one of the things
in a day and age when travel wasdifficult.
The way that you got to empirewas why people actually doing
(14:15):
that coming from, you know, afar flung lands and coming
together to engage from middleschool age through school all
the way through the, thecollege.
Into even the history of theirown city or state.
Even in an age of nationalism,if the 20th century was the age
of nationalism in the 20thcentury, young people don't even
(14:38):
know the historic context andthe timelines for the nation
that they're in.
Let alone the globe.
And that is something that we doneed in order, you know, the
wonderful book that I know whenI have both read that looks at
American history through thelens of ethnicity and culture
(14:59):
and comes up with differentcultures for understanding
American history and the realitythat we have today I don't I
think that we've, we've fallenaway from this moment in 2025
and understanding.
Historical sense, as well as isin religious, our understanding
of religions have developed, Ithink would go a long way to
(15:21):
helping us mitigate and work.
Or a problem of polarizationthat we have today.
Faridah (15:28):
Wow, that that was a thorough and detailed response.
I truly appreciate that.
I, I just want to give a note toour listening audience, our
podcast audience.
The, the title that Dr.
Fanousi was referencing just nowis, American Nations, a history
of the 11 rival regionalcultures of North America.
It's written by Colin Woodard.
It's an excellent read, and it'sone that you should share with
(15:50):
your families.
So going back to this idea ofthe parental role, the family's
role in preparing the youngperson not only for giving them
a sense of true identity andidentity that's grounded in
reality but you're also givingus a sense.
that this type of education,this type of prepared and
thoughtful and impactful andintentional parenting gives our
(16:13):
Children a framework for theirdestiny and their purpose.
So if we're grounding it inscripture, we know that we're
giving our Children a foundationfor the purpose of life.
And if we give them the tools.
and the framework to begin tounderstand the world around
them, both through scientificexploration and through the
exploration of the patterns ofhuman development and human
(16:34):
society.
Then we're giving them a pictureof their destiny.
And as you said, I mean, I, I amalso an educator and I remember
recall hearing stories ofstudents who let's say lived.
East of the Anacostia River inWashington, D.
C.
And had never left SoutheastWashington, D.
C.
They've never even been to theNational Mall.
And I know there are storieslike these across this nation.
(16:55):
So not only are they nottraveling physically in terms of
this world that has us connectedvia the internet and other
things, they're also not.
Traveling ideologically in theirminds.
So this idea of getting to knowthe history of the human family
and placing yourself, oneselfwithin that scope is, is very
important.
So I don't think we canunderestimate the impact of
(17:17):
that.
So I wanted to, to move on tothis idea.
I opened with a reference toscripture, both the Old
Testament and the Quran thattalk about this idea of the
womb.
And as a nurturing element andan element that needs to be
reverenced.
So given your research as anAmerican historian, I know that
we shared with the audience thatyou focus on American religious
(17:39):
history and, you know, what areappraisal of African American
religion and the civil rightsmovement.
I know I'd like to know if youcould give us some insight, what
insight could you offer as ascholar of American religious
history into the role of thenation of Islam as a womb for Al
Islam in America?
(17:59):
And I know that's a bold claim,but for our Muslim and non
Muslim listeners alike, I'd liketo know if you'd like to take a
stab at that for us.
Fanusie (18:09):
Yeah, that sounds like a seminar that meets weekly or
biweekly for two semesters outof the academic year.
But the, the short version I'vebeen asking a lot for you, I
wanna come back and give a pieceof practical advice to that
question that we would forparents and scholarship before,
but we hopefully we can get tothat again.
But yes, I, I guess I wouldstart off by saying, and this is
where I talk about myself as a,as a, as a revisionist.
(18:32):
scholar or historian becauseit's not necessarily what I'm
saying is not necessarily whatyou written in in the academy
today But I I'd like to startout by saying that african
american islam itself Deservesserious study as a unique
reformist movement in islam andIt's a development in african
(18:56):
american And and if I could taketwo minutes to unpack that and
just explain what I mean and Ido have to try to keep it Within
2 minutes, this is a shortnutshell version.
Yes, African American, as weknow, or most of us know, you
know, African Americans as apeople were created were were
(19:17):
forged in the crucible, youknow, not not only.
Like our, our journey began inthe beast the, the bellies of
the slave ships on the MiddlePassage, that formation, that
forging distinct people from allover Western into one culture or
(19:40):
one group that happened throughAnd even through Jim Crow
country and those, thoseexperience, I think.
Form the framework understandingAfrican Americans as a people
and the only reason I'm I'm I'mpointing to that in in this
question that you're askingabout the nation of Islam is the
the again a little bit ofrevisionist it might not be the
(20:00):
way everyone's looking at it butsometimes going Back to that
timeline, this timeline that Iwas encouraging us to have for
world history and religioushistory and, and for our
countries.
I'm also encouraging thistimeline on ulcer, a more
particular scale for to be ableto understand the timeline of,
of different groups of as a, asa people the North, the North
(20:24):
American mainland.
And, you know, whether you'retalking about who would become
German Americans, IrishAmericans, et cetera, et cetera.
But now with this questionaround the nation of Islam, we
are definitely talking aboutAfrican Americans.
Culture, heritage, distinct fromthe different religions that we
were practicing prior to MiddlePassage and, and, and chattel
slavery that evolved.
(20:46):
So, we have to think about it asan evolving, as something that
evolved and with differentdegrees of, of, of
Christianization, differentdegrees of Islamization, but all
of them, when we talk about thatChristianization and that
Islamization, when we talk aboutthese religious identities
becoming complete andindependent.
(21:07):
African Americans as free bowl,creating these organizations and
practicing these religionsindependently that had to be
done this way as, masters whenIslam itself has evolved
alongside of or as part ofAfrican Americans evolving into
their own sense self and theirown identity.
(21:30):
And I say this because, thenation of Islam itself.
We have to look at the influenceof the nation of Islam among the
African American people upon theAfrican American people and
among American religiongenerally are large.
We have to look at that asbeyond numbers of the rank and
file.
We have to look at the way inwhich African American Islam
(21:52):
itself shape African Americanreligiosity.
And, and the reason I call it areformist movement and one
that's unique because there weremany, many, many efforts to
reform the religion that AfricanAmericans were given and the,
and the religion that theyshaped out of, out of the pieces
that they had.
We can think of Bishop.
Henry McNeil Turner, I mean, I,we can think of pain with the
(22:15):
AMA.
Sure.
I mean, the list is just, we,very important work that these
critical men and women did inshaping our religiosity and our
spirituality as, as people in,in this country, but the
institution that developed andbecame known as the church.
(22:36):
Separately from the, the, the,the slave church or the, the,
the or the invisible, what AlRobitalo calls the invisible
institution, that institution bythe end of the civil war,
although it was critical to ourmaturation as a people and our
ability to step fully into therole of assuming responsibility
for ourselves and that role,that, that whole impetus to, to
(22:59):
bring ourselves to rise.
up as a people from slaverythrough the establishment of
schools and churches and, and,and, and mutual aid societies
and, and, and informal bankingsystems and, and what have you,
that effort was indeed, it was,it was platformed and built upon
the church.
But I would also argue that foran entire segment of African
(23:20):
Americans who throughout slaverywere kept completely away from.
quote unquote civilized life ofthe big house and mainstream or
european american society.
They had not Baptized fully orfully integrated into the black
church and so do have differentand and and if we can rapidly
(23:42):
move this timeline along much,much more quickly than I'm
comfortable with as a historiango through slavery and through
the civil war and we have allthese millions of freed men and
women trying to make a life fortheir own own and assume
responsibility We, we, we, weget to the, the, the the 20th
century and we get into the, thegreat migration and we have tens
(24:04):
of thousands, you know, hundredsof thousands, even millions of
people moving from the ruralSouth and the agricultural order
of the plantations and, and JimCrow into the urban North.
And in that, I believe it's inthat period, and right now we're
talking 19, 1915, 1920, 1925,1930.
(24:26):
And that period when you havethis, this, this enormous
movement of people.
You had so many people whoseentire, I believe a few moments
ago, you were talking aboutyoung people whose entire world
was confined to one side of theinternet.
Higher people who I'm nottalking about the sailors.
I'm not talking about theindependent craftsmen or
(24:47):
tradesmen.
I'm talking about the peoplewho's who's who's from sunup to
sundown.
Their world was formed by thatplantation and maybe the
plantation 4 to 7 miles down theroad that they were allowed to
visit to marry and engage in.
And but that was a very smallworld.
Most of us can't imagine livingeven for those of us who have an
(25:08):
entire city.
city.
We can't imagine living ourentire life in just, you know,
four mile radius where our,where we are, our entire world
is, is curtailed by those whohave ownership or control of our
labor and our bodies and, andeven our own, our dignity or
attempt to.
And so it's in that regard thatI ask you to think about people
(25:30):
coming into.
the North and not necessarilybeing fully integrated into
Protestant Christianity, the waythat we understand it in
America.
And again, this is a group, I'mnot saying that we don't have a
thriving century old traditionof Protestantism in the church
with African Americans, we do,but I'm talking about something
(25:51):
separate from that in these rankand file of folks who have lived
their entire lives, mainlycircumscribed by the dick.
harsh dictates of, of plantationculture, both as chat through
entitled slavery and a Jim Crowsystem of their cropping.
So it's in that, so, so if wethink about that, then the 20th
century, it's not just thevoices problem of the color line
(26:13):
that we're facing.
The 20th, that's the way, that'sthe, the oppression from
without.
But when you look at themovement from within, you see
freed men and women attemptingto literally create culture that
we have the, in the North, wehave the.
The Harlem Renaissance or theNegro Renaissance, we have
people standing up and saying,you know writing poems and plays
and novels exploring thisidentity of this newly free of
(26:37):
this, this, this person, one totwo generations out of, out of
slavery and, and and, and sothat, that story, that narrative
of assuming responsibility forourselves, for African
Americans.
that narrative can never beunderstood separately from
religious consciousness.
And, and it's here that we seethe emergence and the
(27:01):
flourishing of what are known asthe storefront churches.
And we'll have the millennialtraditions coming in and the the
Pentecostalism and, and, and,and prophets of city.
We'll have everyone from fatherto divine to big daddy grace to
Deuce Muhammad Ali.
You'll have Marcus Garvey.
You'll have so many different.
(27:21):
You'll have the, you'll havethe, the creation of what would
be known as the, the, the Hebrewblack Jews, et cetera.
And, and this is also the sameperiod that this percolation
will include the genesis ofIslam as an effort to, to reform
the culture.
If, if, if Bishop Henry McNeilTurner and others can criticize
(27:41):
Christianity and say, Whoa,Whoa, Whoa, We worship one God,
but we don't worship, we're not,we're not making divine a man or
a European man.
You know, and what you know, youhave people saying God is me or
God is black or God is, youknow, so you have all these
different efforts during thisperiod, or you have people
rejecting the notion of God atsome of the higher levels of
(28:05):
intellectuals, and whatever,whatever you have, and there's a
wonderful story about Thurman atWarhouse dealing with that with
Frasier, but we don't have timeto go into that.
But, but, but the, theoverarching Consensus was that
there must be a God, and that weare worshipping him, and now
we're going to make him our,him, we're going to make our
worship of him our own.
And we're going to do it in away that truly liberates us, and
(28:27):
truly brings human dignity, andtruly protects the innocence of
our society, of our culture, ofour humanity.
And that's a, that's a lovelystory that we don't have time to
get into in greater detail thanthat.
But with with with, I wanted togive a kind of context to
understand why I'm looking atIslam and African American Islam
as a vital development inAfrican American religion
(28:49):
itself.
And if you go all the way into,if you talk about the nation of
Islam this one was born andemerged right in the milieu, the
same milieu that I'm talkingabout.
So you have these scores offolks coming Southern migrants,
you know, many without anyeducation, some with what first,
second, third grade, very fewmade it all the way through a
finished education, which wouldhave been about eighth grade for
(29:12):
the average educated American atthat time.
Many even illiterate, not all,but so at this time in any
wilderness of these, theseurban, what would become these
urban ghettos This is where,where Islam is born for, for
Americans and for AfricanAmericans and I won't go into
detail with the story of, of W.
D.
Farhad Muhammad, but he has beendescribed by one scholar,
(29:34):
Richard Brent Turner, as themost important Muslim missionary
of the 20th century.
And I would not argue with that.
I would support that 100percent.
But if he was the most importantmissionary of the 20th century,
then why are there so manyAmericans that don't even know
Okay, have WD for Mohammed asthe progenitor of the Nation of
(29:55):
Islam.
And then you also have the honorof Elijah Mohammed, who was a
migrant coming from Georgia bornas Elijah pool and eventually
become Elijah Mohammed and thehonor of Elijah Mohammed as the
leader of the Nation of Islam.
But in this group, from itsinception in the early thirties,
and remember.
To give more historical context,it we're not just dealing with
the great migration now, but thetime we get to the 30s, we've
(30:18):
had the, the, the, thedepression.
And so we have people out ofwork and for African Americans,
it was a saying last hired,first fired.
So many men who were coming tothe promised land for a new
opportunity there.
Are are disappointed anddisillusioned when they get
there, and they're not findingwhat they need spiritually in
the established churches.
Some of them might not even beaccepted.
(30:40):
Because again, they're comingstraight from that culture of
the slave plantation, andthey're definitely not finding
the economic.
Independence that they were,that they were looking for.
So it's in this setting that theNation of Islam was born.
And again, the same way we weretalking about nurturing and
being that, that nurturingstarting before the baby is
actually born, but during thatgestation period, in this
(31:02):
gestation period of AfricanAmerican religious thought that
leads to freedom and, and, and,and liberation, the, the freedom
and liberation that we have,that we take for granted in the
21st century during this period.
The Nation of Islam createdorganizations designed to
cultivate, to nourish, and togrow discipline and community
(31:25):
life.
And this was, you had the Fruitof Islam, which was, was,
scholars like to describe it asa paramilitary organization, but
that was designed to teachdiscipline and organization.
For, for boys and men, even boyswould join the junior of route
and then you have the MGTGCC,which was the Muslim girls
training and generalcivilization class where good
(31:45):
habits of domesticity werereinforced and, and, and
communal life and, and, and,and, and, and community life.
So, so the genesis, so the righthere in the 1930s and, we know
that without going too intothat, we every, we started this
conversation talking abouteducation and scholarship and
taking ownership over thescholarship, the education of
(32:07):
our children, no matter whatinstitution again in the 1930s,
when you have some parents whoare illiterate or barely
literate, this organization, theNation of Islam is saying.
Control, be responsible for yourchildren's education.
Do not get that society that hasbeen so harmful to them, to the
psyche, to the understanding.
And so you have the genesis ofwhat would become, you know
(32:27):
homeschooling beforehomeschooling was legal.
And then you have the genesis ofthe first parochial Islamic
school system in the countrywith Muhammad University of
Islam.
So all of these things wereright.
They are for and anotherimportant thing to understand
about the nation of Islam in somany directions that we could go
that I'll say this and then kindof turn it back over to use to
see if there's another directionyou want to go, or if I have
(32:49):
more time to talk about this,but is it the nation of Islam
was conceived of conceived of asthe lost, found, found Nation of
Islam in the wilderness of NorthAmerica, and its mission was to
all African Americans.
It was to revive and to lift upfrom this dead level all African
Americans.
So it was whether you acceptedyour own, which as the saying
(33:09):
went, and you accepted a newidentity as a righteous Muslim,
or whether you did not this wasfor you.
It was to revive and torevitalize.
So many of the age oldquestions.
The African American leaders andeducators and intellectuals have
been grappling with it, slavery,honestly, or being resolved in,
in this, the both in themythology, in the, the esoteric
(33:33):
packaging of the nation ofIslam, as well as in the
practical programs or theesoteric I'm sorry, exoteric
programs of the nation of Islam.
So, so there's a complete range.
Just like the umbilical cordkind of feeds you there.
People like to talk about it.
Scholars like to talk about thenation of Islam as a cult.
And I would say it was only acult in the sense that you don't
(33:53):
allow everything into the wombwhen the baby is being tortured
at gestational or else the babywon't survive.
But instead you feed the baby adiet of what the baby needs to
become productive.
And when, when it's out in theworld or just as I,
Faridah (34:08):
wow we will indeed have to have you back for a part two
of this conversation.
There is no humanly possible waythat we can exhaust the
questions that I have on myscreen in front of me, or even
to plumb the depths of whatyou've shared with us.
So, in, in wrapping up thisepisode and Dr.
Farnoosy, I pray that you willhonor us with your presence
(34:28):
again so that we may continuethis conversation.
One of the things that I wantedto ask you, you brought up the
umbilical cord and you spokeabout how this is, I asked the
con this question kind of in thecontext of not only the
development of Al Islam inAmerica, but also the African
American self determination andyou, you deftly wove the two of
(34:50):
those together.
And one of the things that I'mthinking of, even as you spoke
of education and ourresponsibility to educate our
own, is that not only did thenation of Islam schools, the
Muhammad university of Islam,which eventually became the
sister Clara Muhammad schoolsystem not only was, was that a
product, but we also saw aflowering across the United
States of African Americanindependent.
(35:11):
educational institutions.
So whether that washomeschooling, and now we know
the homeschooling movement is,is booming in terms of African
American parents and families,but also this idea of
independent institutions,whether they were affiliated
with the nation of Islam or not,that, that element of self
determination was critical.
And it was indeed fed, like yousaid by this river.
(35:34):
of dignity and selfdetermination from the nation of
Islam.
And so in that vein, I justwould like to say as we wrap up
today's conversation 2025 marks95 years into the flowering of
Al Islam in America through thisparticular tradition.
And as you so astutely sharedwith us that this is something
(35:54):
that has evolved alongside theevolution of the African
American person and peoplehood.
It's also 50 years into theQuranic logic and leadership of
Imam Muhammad, who inherit youknow, who became the leader upon
the death of his father, thehonorable Elijah Muhammad in
1975.
So you know, I know women don'tlike to, to remark on their
ages.
(36:14):
But, you know, we are twins, andwe were born into that
leadership in 1975.
So as yes so as as a daughter ofthis community of this
particular history, as a scholarof its history and as a mother
of its future, not justliterally, but through your
scholarship and what you yourpublic scholarship, I would
(36:36):
emphasize how would you, howwould you what are your thoughts
on where we are now given this,this particular history and
where that places us as anAfrican American people in the
world today?
Fanusie (36:50):
Wonderful, wonderful note to end on.
Well, yeah, I'm, I'm verygrateful that we had this, this
long, rich tradition of, ofleadership with W.
D.
Farran Muhammad, the HonorableElijah Muhammad, a memoir.
And it's really not limited tothese Islamic leaders.
We were quick to praise, youknow Marcus Mosiah Garvey Booker
(37:15):
T.
Washington.
We had Fred Douglass, FrederickDouglass, rich, rich heritage
and legacy of spirituallycharged prophets, if you will,
or these people who are.
Receiving inspiration from Godto, to help to lift their people
up, you know, and, and Frederickthought, and any of these men
(37:35):
and women both the, the signheroes and those that we are,
are less familiar with if yousee their biology, the I'm
sorry, their biography, theaspects of their life, whether
it was penned by their own handor other scholars writing about
them or contemporaries, you willsee that they rarely even made a
decision without there's mainlyBible.
And then as we get into the 20thcentury, of course, the Quran
and other influences, spiritualother scripture.
(37:58):
There's but with the 1975 with,you know, having a six setter, a
leader whose movement wasdesigned to to ease the
oppressed psyche of the mostdowntrodden member of American
society, who is indeed existingon the peripheries, the economic
(38:20):
peripheries and margins ofsocial peripheries.
Margins left alone, evensometimes by educated and into
an influential AfricanAmericans, but that that person,
you know, we have thisorganization does not have that
list lifting up part of thateasing this oppressed psyche was
to give an understanding ofidentity.
(38:44):
That is coming not from yourhierarchical position in society
as, as man, be they European,American, African, anyone has,
has, has, has envisioned it, notfrom a, a manipulated version of
what someone says that scripturesays you're supposed to say.
(39:04):
I referenced that other things,but from a, an organic
understanding of the purpose ofhuman being and the dignity of
human being that I would argue,even our founding fathers, even
those who enslaved others were,were still.
putting into the American theDeclaration of Rights and the
(39:27):
Constitution, but this organicunderstanding that, that, that
human life comes from God andthat all human beings aspire to
liberty and freedom and thatkind of thing.
So this identity, we, the Nationof Islam was one of the earliest
organizations to link thatidentity.
To the scriptural identity andthe scriptural understanding
(39:49):
what now in the nation of Islam.
We are our identity and worth isnot predicated upon our past
experiences.
It's not predicated on the factand it doesn't disprove any of
these things, but it's notpredicated on the fact that we
have, we are analogous to the,the, the ancient Hebrews as most
Moses led them out of the theWell, oppression and capture
(40:10):
under the pharaoh duringpharaonic times in Egypt to the
wilderness for freedom.
It's not there are manyparallels for us as African
American people.
And we've had this notion ofcovenant that hinges upon that,
but with the nation of Islam, oreven Garvey's movement, even
though the reinforced all theseprinciples, the way.
His movement is predicated onblackness or your identity as a
(40:32):
descendant of Africans here forthe first time with the nation
of Islam.
We have at least thematicallythis idea that our, our, our
identity is based upon ourhumanity as a servant of God.
And there was a lot of symbolicor pictorial language.
So I'm not going to say thatthat is the identity or the
understanding that every rankand file member, Muslim
(40:53):
believing member of the nationof Islam had, but it was.
built into the catechism that wehave this new self, that the
nation of Islam is returning usto our original self, and that
that original self was arighteous Muslim.
But then we have to make surethat we're using the word Muslim
the way it is intended by,through the language of the the
Arabic language of the Quran,that it was revealed in the
(41:15):
scriptural language, and not thecultural language of Muslims and
Islamic societies.
And in that, we're, that saying,Muslim is just one who submits
fully to the creator.
And God describes And identifiesAbraham, the father of all the
religions, as a believer of God.
Further lifts Abraham up anddistinguishes him as the friend
of God.
So this, that's what's kind of,to me earth shattering.
(41:38):
And but there's still so muchlanguage and mythology that was
designed to intellectuallypunish or spank the progenitors
of Christian Protestantism inAmerican society as it had
flourished up to that time and,and, and, and, and especially
because of the.
Then to which it leaned on thisfalse doctrine of the or
(42:00):
ideology of white supremacy andthis false picture of God as a
European human being with blondehair and blue eyes.
So the nation of Islam had toremember this is also the time
of and I'm getting to ImamMahmood, but this is also the
time of Science of Farida,what's that science called?
Eugenics.
And, and, and, yes, yes, andwe're in the highest
universities of the land.
People are making insidiousclaims about humanity that go
(42:25):
against the notion ofunderstanding the scriptural
notion of humanity being onefamily.
So, at that time, you have this,this doctrine coming from Farad
that's speaking on multiplelevels.
And then not all, we don't get asense of react, we don't sense
of scripture.
Or a sense of our identity thatis completely rooted in reality.
Instead, we have hints and, and,and cloaked in, in its own
(42:48):
doctrine and its own mythology.
But if you fast forward to 1975,then you have the son of the
honorable Muhammad.
You know, this is a man who'sbusiness to remake the world.
Not to remake America, not toremake the United States of
America, but to remake the worldand the money, what, but what
his, his, his words and actionswere right where he put his
(43:11):
money right there immediately,you know, beginning campaigns
that all over the country toeradicate this dangerous and,
and disease thinking of, of theThe supremacy of one human being
over another and remade in theimage of, or posing as the
creator of the divine.
And that was a campaign calledCrade or the committee to remove
(43:33):
all images of attempting toportray the divine and, and that
as its goal to get signaturesfrom European Americans, not
just African Americans all overthe country, and to present
these to the Pope in Romesaying, you know what, we've got
to stop these false images.
And it was very successful.
But that this notion that thenation of Islam was healing the
(43:55):
oppressed psyche of the mostdowntrodden member of society in
1975 with this 50 what hasbecome now a 50 year leadership
we're moving into 50 years ofcelebrating this continuing
leadership that is still strongand exists.
We have this.
We can see a full flowering ofan understanding.
(44:15):
You have the sons and daughtersand grandsons and granddaughters
and great grandsons andgranddaughters with this
understanding of their ownidentity as human beings,
purpose or destination to beinheritors of, of the mantle or
leadership of acting in the bestinterest, of the most innocent
in our hu in our human society.
And to preserve that and toeducate that and the culture to,
(44:39):
to nurture, to nourish it.
So so that we can in, so that wecan actually have freedom,
justice, and equality.
And with Emman Martin Muhammadthat, you know, 50 years of that
leadership.
I think that, you know, there'sa saying, a tradition among
Muslims that 40 is a year ofmaturity.
So if you look at this 40 yearsof gestation, we, we, we have
(45:00):
these mature individuals likeyourself, myself, and others in
our, you know, who are mothersas us as women, we are mothers.
And yes, I consider myself amother to, you know, needing to
birth scholarship, et cetera.
But I think the most importantthing.
That we can birth and that wehave the biggest responsibility
we have upon us is to nurtureand be mothers of to be wounds
(45:23):
for the protection and thecultivation of human life, of
our future, of our young people,of education, you know,
protecting their education,their, their moral
consciousness, their values,and, and and we cannot do that
independently.
We cannot do that as, as, asindividual group, individual
people.
We have, yes, it starts in thefamily, but we have to be
creating a community.
(45:44):
We have to be creatinginstitutions and we have to be
creating culture that affectsour own, but that spreads all,
all, all through this countryand, and, and hopefully all
through the world.
Faridah (45:56):
So you, you.
ended where you indeed you beganand that is with the purpose and
destiny of the human being andyou gave us a beautiful vision
for realizing that within ourfamilies this is a family ties
the prescription for society andwe firmly believe that within
the the The sign, you know, therevelation of God in our own
(46:19):
creation is the the remedy forthat and so I I'm listening to
you And you you gave us abeautiful vision for how we can
empower ourselves and take backresponsibility For educating our
own children within the womb ofthe family no matter their
formal or informal education wealone have the responsibility as
(46:41):
families and communities to Togive them a picture of the human
being that begins with theFather Adam, and proceeds to
Noah and Abraham, Moses andJesus and Muhammad and to see
themselves in their owndevelopment in Bishop Richard
Allen and David Walker,Frederick Douglas, j Jina Lee
Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman,Booker t Washington, WEB Du Bois
(47:03):
Garvey, Dr.
King, honorable Elijah Muhammadand Iman, Martha, Dean Muhammad,
that this is a shared legacy ofpurpose and destiny that is.
inextricably linked to our humanexperience.
But within the cauldron of humanchattel slavery, a people was
created.
A people was created to witnessto mankind, the pursuit of a
(47:24):
just order.
And it came with lots ofstruggle, but it came to witness
for mankind that the strugglefor excellence and human dignity
for freedom, justice, andequality indeed must come from
and come with the divineguidance found in scripture and
in the world around us.
So as we close again, this isfamily ties.
(47:44):
And I recall that you, you saidsomething earlier that you
wanted to return to.
So I'm wondering if you justhave one minute to share with us
any closing practical advice forparents who are sharing you
know, who are raising not onlyscholars who will literally go
into the academy and benefitsociety that way, but the role
of scholarship nurturing that asa, as a way of life and a vision
(48:07):
for how they, they behave in theworld.
Fanusie (48:10):
I will say three things, especially in this age
of the omnipresent device read,read and read.
Read to your Children.
If they're too young to read,have them read and and provide.
I don't let them go on.
Give them their list becausehonestly, they really aren't
getting it in the schoolsanymore lose the aspects of
popular culture that we havechildren watch television.
(48:32):
They watch give them somedocumentaries.
Everyone should every childbetween the age of 10 and 18.
Should be should have seen theentire eyes on the series.
Yes Start there and then you canincorporate some of the newer
things.
Some of that are documents thereThey use their the curriculum
that you're giving to themindependently of what they're
(48:53):
getting in school, or if you'rea home school give them
narratives of their own historyof the history of the larger
history of our, our, ourcountry,
Faridah (49:01):
Dr.
Farnusi, I appreciate you.
We, we need you back for acontinuation of this
conversation.
Our families are critical to ourestablishment and to the
salvation of our nation andindeed of humanity.
As you said, you reminded us wewere invited to remake the world
and we need to do that with theguidance of our creator.
(49:21):
The praise.
is for God as always.
We've moved one step closer todestination excellence.
Until next time, let us remainconscious of our creator, of the
sacred relationship of parentand child, and of the family
ties that bind us.
Subscribe to the podcast andcome back next time for a new
episode of The Family Ties.
(49:42):
On behalf of my guest, Dr.
Fatima Fanousi, and myself,Farida Abdul Tawa Brown, peace
be upon the family.
Peace be upon the family.
As we welcome you to anotherexperience of the family ties, a
prescription for society.
We thank you for joining us forour very first episode of 2025.
I am your co host, Farida AbdulTawa Brown.
My co host, Frank Abdul Shahid,is on leave for several
(00:35):
episodes, and while his presenceis greatly missed, we will
continue our shared commitmenthere at the podcast to bring the
family into focus as aprescription for what is ailing
our contemporary society.
Today, we have an exciting andthought provoking episode in
store for you as we sit downwith our guest, Dr.
(00:55):
Fatima Fanusi, for a wideranging conversation,
illuminating the role of womenas wounds of the mind and how
this role within the family andsociety is critical for the
human family.
Before we get started, don'tforget to subscribe so you can
stay up to date and get all thelatest episodes.
(01:16):
Born and raised in Dorchester,Massachusetts, Fatima Fanousi is
a historian of 19th and 20thcentury American religion whose
research is an involvingreappraisal of the study of
African American Islam, themodern civil rights movement,
and Islam in the West.
She is currently residing inMedina by Senegal in West Africa
(01:37):
while on sabbatical with theInstitute for Islamic Studies.
Christian and Jewish Studies inTowson, Maryland.
Fatim is a lecturer in theIslamic Studies Department at
Johns Hopkins University inBaltimore, Maryland, and a
historian, consultant, andarchivist for the Howard Thurman
Historical Home in DaytonaBeach, Florida.
Dr.
Fanousi received her B.
(01:58):
A.
in history and Arabic fromLincoln University in
Pennsylvania, her math MA inAmerican history from Tufts
University and her PhD inAmerican history from Howard
University.
Dr.
Fonusi, welcome to the show.
Fanusie (02:13):
Welcome and thank you for having me.
And
Faridah (02:16):
I, I must say as a caveat, Dr.
Fonusi is not only agroundbreaking historian, but
she also happens to be my twinsister.
So it is an absolute pleasureand delight to have you on the
show.
Fanusie (02:28):
I'm so grateful to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Faridah (02:33):
Wonderful.
So we are in the midst of themonth of Ramadan for our
listeners for Muslims.
We are fasting this month andfocusing on the word of God, on
scripture.
And This is also Women's HistoryMonth.
So it's a month in which boththe Word of God is in focus for
believers, and it's also a monththat we reflect deeply on the
(02:55):
role of women as mothers in ourfamilies and also as mothers in
society.
And so, beginning there, I'djust like for our listening
audience to review whatscripture says.
In the Qur'an, it says there's apassage where God speaks to
mankind, and he says, O mankind,be conscious, reverence your
(03:16):
guardian Lord and the wombs,because God is ever watching
over you.
And in Psalms 127.
3 we hear, Behold, children area heritage from the Lord, the
fruit of the womb, a reward.
And he also says in Job 31.
15, did he not?
make me in the womb?
And did he not fashion us in thewomb?
(03:37):
And so coming from a specificunderstanding of man or the
human being as the mind andwoman as the womb of the mind,
I'd like to ask you, Dr.
Fonusi, we're living in acomplex time and in a complex
society.
How should the family look atscholarship in their efforts to
produce in the development ofcommunity life specifically to
(04:00):
be able to qualify?
and or to have the correctsensitivities to manage the
resources that give life to acommunity.
Fanusie (04:09):
Yeah.
So the society that we live in,the the, the, the way that we
should look at scholarship forme, that, that, that's an
interesting question because wethink about scholarship often as
something that is remote fromeveryday life.
And we even have this concept ofan ivory tower.
And we have this, this, thisdisjunction knowledge itself is,
is siphoned and separated.
(04:30):
And we, we, we give it to, tothe young, even the students in
our society in, in measuredamounts.
But in a way that where theknowledge is rootless, so often
often when young people arereceiving information or
knowledge, they cannot connectwith it and it does not make
sense to them and they thereforecannot relate and if they cannot
(04:54):
relate, then they do not see thevalue in it.
And so before we even get intothis, I'll just.
Share a quick anecdote that myson who is, is now 23, but when
he was about 13 or 14, I, heobserved me having a
conversation with some friendswhere I was talking to them and
I mentioned, well, you know,our, our children go to school
(05:16):
to learn.
And my son stopped me at thistime, he was a public school
student and he stopped me, youknow, with great consternation
and was like, What did you justsay?
And I said, you know, we go toschool, you, you all go to
school to learn.
And he was like no, we don't.
And there was a mixture.
He's a very respectful youngman.
So he was trying not to bedisrespectful, but he was like
looking at me like, what in theworld is my mother saying?
She knows better than this.
(05:36):
And I was like, well, what doyou go to school to do?
And he said, we go to school toget good grades.
And then I said, well, when doyou learn?
And he said, in my free time.
And so that really was that,that, that was.
It's kind of powerful comingfrom a 13 year old.
But the reason I bring it up inthe context of your question is
about how we should look atscholarship is because one of
(05:59):
the things, and I imagine thatAs, as scholars of religion and
knowledge and as learned peoplewithin Christian and Muslim and
Jewish communities, theAbrahamic faiths in this
country, there's so many deepanswers to this and so many
different directions you can goin.
I am just coming as a historian,so I'll try to answer that
question to the best of myability, but I would say the
(06:21):
first thing that needs to Tohappen is to begin with a
framework that is, that is, iscoming out of scripture.
And I know there are many in the21st century who might look and
I look at me escape.
Well, what do you mean?
Like we've gone beyond that,especially, you know, we've,
we've, we've evolved beyondlooking at things from a
literal.
Scriptural perspective that thatis literal.
(06:43):
But what I mean by that is, atleast for Muslims, beginning
with a Quranic framework orChristians beginning with a
framework rooted in theknowledge of the scripture, the
knowledge that is divine and forJews beginning with the
knowledge that is in the Torah.
If you go back to what you weresaying about the womb a baby
does not just come intoexistence.
(07:04):
So we as women, we're nurturersand we have this gestation
period.
And when we're in that gestationperiod, before we actually give
birth, we are responsible fornourishing and feeding that life
that is growing inside them.
And so what I would advocate toparents is to make sure that
you're beginning with aframework that that supports.
(07:26):
A wide array of all theknowledge that your children
and, and that you might everbegin to study or embark on and
the literature, et cetera, basedupon what is politically or
socially invade in vogue.
Avoid following the whims ofcancel culture.
Young school age Children.
I mean, at the moment thatChildren are able to pay
attention and to have storiesread to them, whether it's
(07:49):
picture books or whether it'sshort stories or or just
pictures.
And you are as you go along themoment that Children are the
timelines, timelines of worldhistory.
That's something that we used todo as as as educated people in
civilized societies.
And it's something that we don'tdo as much.
To children from a very youngage to the timelines of world
(08:11):
history, and then to continueforcing these timelines to flesh
out these times, which is your,your, your young people age.
And again, if we go back tothat, that whole understanding
of of.
Think about it as you're theyoung child, the young children,
you're nurturing and helpingthem to and also would continue
to fuel them to adjust them on asteady diet you also want to
(08:31):
make sure that you're givingyour child, you're introducing
them to this, this entiretimeline of world history so
that they're not jointed whenthey finally enter school,
especially at the older gradesin the middle school and high
school and onto college, butthat they have a whole connected
picture of humanity and whathuman civilization, what human
civilization is.
(08:52):
That's my first piece of adviceto introduce that timeline of
religions to young children andand also not to depend on
external here.
I'm sure there's a number ofyoung of parents today who
choose to homeschool.
I, my children were mainly in,in, in private Islamic schools
and then public so just.
Knowing that you don't ever, nomatter what your school
(09:14):
environment is, you don't wantto depend on external schooling.
This scholarship, thisunderstanding of, of, of how
societies work, how history hasevolved, begins with you.
And in order to cultivate,whether your child is going to
become a professional historianor a biologist or a chemist,
feel I mean, and love, becausethat's the priorities of the
human family.
So to know history that thetribal history, I think history,
(09:36):
the small history, understandthat in order to love
themselves, but also as aparticularistic aspect of the,
the global That's the, I guessthe, the, and, and, and if I
could just quickly try to bringthat to this present moment of
the complex society that we livein today, I would dare to, to,
to argue or venture of Americanstoday who see themselves as
(09:58):
disconnected from people whothink or worship.
That of values I would say thatmost of most of us who are in
that category, we're neverexposed to a timeline that
includes all of of of worldhistories and but then when we
have a or even the second, buthand in hand with a timeline of
(10:20):
world religion about human,human societies and human
history have gone hand in hand.
So you.
Where the flourish of humanintellect and human society, you
also have a religion orderingthat society with a scripture
that that originated with thecreator.
And, you know, through thesuccessive generations, the
people may move closer to orfurther away from that.
(10:42):
But everything by humancivilizations intricately tied
to world religions.
And by that, we mean thatintricately tied.
Faridah (10:48):
Wow, you gave us so much food for thought and you
know, it almost makes one wantto go back and do it all over
again, but I think that ship hassailed for me.
So hopefully you know,grandchildren, yes,
grandchildren, but I, I want togo back to something you said
you said that we begin with afoundation of scripture and that
(11:09):
when we study.
The human when we study humanhistory and the history of
religion that we're giving forour Children, a scaffold of
sorts, imagining human life isplant life.
We've got this this scaffoldupon which the vine and the
plant can grow.
That is expansive and universal.
So we're not.
So even though we begin with aparticularistic identity, let's
(11:30):
say our ethnic identity or evenour own families our family, you
know, our family history andidentity that is giving when we
grounded in scripture, afoundation of scripture, you are
pointing to our most importantidentity, which is that of the
human soul.
And I want to, would like tostop there for a moment and ask
in your experience as ahistorian and given the advice
(11:52):
that you've just given, howimportant is it?
That, that, This identity of thehuman being is being part of a
human family and having anessential nature.
How important is that in thisday and age when it comes to
shaping and forming the identityof the young person?
Fanusie (12:09):
I've got to tell you, I said that is critical I think in
order to have civilizationwhether they're whether we agree
with the form of governing ornot, when we see the growth, we
see.
A group coming from that narrow,that particularistic that you
were talking about, you know,whether it's a tribe or a unit,
(12:30):
in hindsight, we call themempire or whatever, but the one
that are deemed the greatest byhistorians and by greatest, I
mean, the ones that leave themost enduring legacy for the
profit, the benefit of humanity.
Are the ones that branchfurthest out.
So you think about the RomanEmpire, you think about the
Greek, you think about
Faridah (12:47):
Egyptian.
Yes,
Fanusie (12:49):
you basically geographically, they're, they,
they have fingers.
The come into conquest andconquering or incorporating new
people in, into, you have toengage.
You have to, so that.
That image in the tentacles, Ican almost think of these human
(13:10):
civilizations flowing forth likeplants and, and, and, and, and
themselves like ivy and so youdo have this, if we think about
it today in the 20th century,we're all consumed with the idea
of DNA and tracing our roots.
So if you think about it, likethe, the DNA trees and diagrams
that you see again, all the, thecultivation of human society by
(13:32):
human beings.
And by human beings and notseparately because, because
according to what God put it,put us on the earth to.
And when that happens, there's apattern where there's this
oneness.
There's this, this, this, this,this, this, this coming out of
(13:53):
many distinct groups comes one,comes one empire.
And you learn from, it remindsme of a Quranic a verse where
God is saying in the scripturewe have made you different into
different tribes, differentIans, working together with
living together with traveling,and that was one of the things
in a day and age when travel wasdifficult.
The way that you got to empirewas why people actually doing
(14:15):
that coming from, you know, afar flung lands and coming
together to engage from middleschool age through school all
the way through the, thecollege.
Into even the history of theirown city or state.
Even in an age of nationalism,if the 20th century was the age
of nationalism in the 20thcentury, young people don't even
(14:38):
know the historic context andthe timelines for the nation
that they're in.
Let alone the globe.
And that is something that we doneed in order, you know, the
wonderful book that I know whenI have both read that looks at
American history through thelens of ethnicity and culture
(14:59):
and comes up with differentcultures for understanding
American history and the realitythat we have today I don't I
think that we've, we've fallenaway from this moment in 2025
and understanding.
Historical sense, as well as isin religious, our understanding
of religions have developed, Ithink would go a long way to
(15:21):
helping us mitigate and work.
Or a problem of polarizationthat we have today.
Faridah (15:28):
Wow, that that was a thorough and detailed response.
I truly appreciate that.
I, I just want to give a note toour listening audience, our
podcast audience.
The, the title that Dr.
Fanousi was referencing just nowis, American Nations, a history
of the 11 rival regionalcultures of North America.
It's written by Colin Woodard.
It's an excellent read, and it'sone that you should share with
(15:50):
your families.
So going back to this idea ofthe parental role, the family's
role in preparing the youngperson not only for giving them
a sense of true identity andidentity that's grounded in
reality but you're also givingus a sense.
that this type of education,this type of prepared and
thoughtful and impactful andintentional parenting gives our
(16:13):
Children a framework for theirdestiny and their purpose.
So if we're grounding it inscripture, we know that we're
giving our Children a foundationfor the purpose of life.
And if we give them the tools.
and the framework to begin tounderstand the world around
them, both through scientificexploration and through the
exploration of the patterns ofhuman development and human
(16:34):
society.
Then we're giving them a pictureof their destiny.
And as you said, I mean, I, I amalso an educator and I remember
recall hearing stories ofstudents who let's say lived.
East of the Anacostia River inWashington, D.
C.
And had never left SoutheastWashington, D.
C.
They've never even been to theNational Mall.
And I know there are storieslike these across this nation.
(16:55):
So not only are they nottraveling physically in terms of
this world that has us connectedvia the internet and other
things, they're also not.
Traveling ideologically in theirminds.
So this idea of getting to knowthe history of the human family
and placing yourself, oneselfwithin that scope is, is very
important.
So I don't think we canunderestimate the impact of
(17:17):
that.
So I wanted to, to move on tothis idea.
I opened with a reference toscripture, both the Old
Testament and the Quran thattalk about this idea of the
womb.
And as a nurturing element andan element that needs to be
reverenced.
So given your research as anAmerican historian, I know that
we shared with the audience thatyou focus on American religious
(17:39):
history and, you know, what areappraisal of African American
religion and the civil rightsmovement.
I know I'd like to know if youcould give us some insight, what
insight could you offer as ascholar of American religious
history into the role of thenation of Islam as a womb for Al
Islam in America?
(17:59):
And I know that's a bold claim,but for our Muslim and non
Muslim listeners alike, I'd liketo know if you'd like to take a
stab at that for us.
Fanusie (18:09):
Yeah, that sounds like a seminar that meets weekly or
biweekly for two semesters outof the academic year.
But the, the short version I'vebeen asking a lot for you, I
wanna come back and give a pieceof practical advice to that
question that we would forparents and scholarship before,
but we hopefully we can get tothat again.
But yes, I, I guess I wouldstart off by saying, and this is
where I talk about myself as a,as a, as a revisionist.
(18:32):
scholar or historian becauseit's not necessarily what I'm
saying is not necessarily whatyou written in in the academy
today But I I'd like to startout by saying that african
american islam itself Deservesserious study as a unique
reformist movement in islam andIt's a development in african
(18:56):
american And and if I could taketwo minutes to unpack that and
just explain what I mean and Ido have to try to keep it Within
2 minutes, this is a shortnutshell version.
Yes, African American, as weknow, or most of us know, you
know, African Americans as apeople were created were were
(19:17):
forged in the crucible, youknow, not not only.
Like our, our journey began inthe beast the, the bellies of
the slave ships on the MiddlePassage, that formation, that
forging distinct people from allover Western into one culture or
(19:40):
one group that happened throughAnd even through Jim Crow
country and those, thoseexperience, I think.
Form the framework understandingAfrican Americans as a people
and the only reason I'm I'm I'mpointing to that in in this
question that you're askingabout the nation of Islam is the
the again a little bit ofrevisionist it might not be the
(20:00):
way everyone's looking at it butsometimes going Back to that
timeline, this timeline that Iwas encouraging us to have for
world history and religioushistory and, and for our
countries.
I'm also encouraging thistimeline on ulcer, a more
particular scale for to be ableto understand the timeline of,
of different groups of as a, asa people the North, the North
(20:24):
American mainland.
And, you know, whether you'retalking about who would become
German Americans, IrishAmericans, et cetera, et cetera.
But now with this questionaround the nation of Islam, we
are definitely talking aboutAfrican Americans.
Culture, heritage, distinct fromthe different religions that we
were practicing prior to MiddlePassage and, and, and chattel
slavery that evolved.
(20:46):
So, we have to think about it asan evolving, as something that
evolved and with differentdegrees of, of, of
Christianization, differentdegrees of Islamization, but all
of them, when we talk about thatChristianization and that
Islamization, when we talk aboutthese religious identities
becoming complete andindependent.
(21:07):
African Americans as free bowl,creating these organizations and
practicing these religionsindependently that had to be
done this way as, masters whenIslam itself has evolved
alongside of or as part ofAfrican Americans evolving into
their own sense self and theirown identity.
(21:30):
And I say this because, thenation of Islam itself.
We have to look at the influenceof the nation of Islam among the
African American people upon theAfrican American people and
among American religiongenerally are large.
We have to look at that asbeyond numbers of the rank and
file.
We have to look at the way inwhich African American Islam
(21:52):
itself shape African Americanreligiosity.
And, and the reason I call it areformist movement and one
that's unique because there weremany, many, many efforts to
reform the religion that AfricanAmericans were given and the,
and the religion that theyshaped out of, out of the pieces
that they had.
We can think of Bishop.
Henry McNeil Turner, I mean, I,we can think of pain with the
(22:15):
AMA.
Sure.
I mean, the list is just, we,very important work that these
critical men and women did inshaping our religiosity and our
spirituality as, as people in,in this country, but the
institution that developed andbecame known as the church.
(22:36):
Separately from the, the, the,the slave church or the, the,
the or the invisible, what AlRobitalo calls the invisible
institution, that institution bythe end of the civil war,
although it was critical to ourmaturation as a people and our
ability to step fully into therole of assuming responsibility
for ourselves and that role,that, that whole impetus to, to
(22:59):
bring ourselves to rise.
up as a people from slaverythrough the establishment of
schools and churches and, and,and, and mutual aid societies
and, and, and informal bankingsystems and, and what have you,
that effort was indeed, it was,it was platformed and built upon
the church.
But I would also argue that foran entire segment of African
(23:20):
Americans who throughout slaverywere kept completely away from.
quote unquote civilized life ofthe big house and mainstream or
european american society.
They had not Baptized fully orfully integrated into the black
church and so do have differentand and and if we can rapidly
(23:42):
move this timeline along much,much more quickly than I'm
comfortable with as a historiango through slavery and through
the civil war and we have allthese millions of freed men and
women trying to make a life fortheir own own and assume
responsibility We, we, we, weget to the, the, the the 20th
century and we get into the, thegreat migration and we have tens
(24:04):
of thousands, you know, hundredsof thousands, even millions of
people moving from the ruralSouth and the agricultural order
of the plantations and, and JimCrow into the urban North.
And in that, I believe it's inthat period, and right now we're
talking 19, 1915, 1920, 1925,1930.
(24:26):
And that period when you havethis, this, this enormous
movement of people.
You had so many people whoseentire, I believe a few moments
ago, you were talking aboutyoung people whose entire world
was confined to one side of theinternet.
Higher people who I'm nottalking about the sailors.
I'm not talking about theindependent craftsmen or
(24:47):
tradesmen.
I'm talking about the peoplewho's who's who's from sunup to
sundown.
Their world was formed by thatplantation and maybe the
plantation 4 to 7 miles down theroad that they were allowed to
visit to marry and engage in.
And but that was a very smallworld.
Most of us can't imagine livingeven for those of us who have an
(25:08):
entire city.
city.
We can't imagine living ourentire life in just, you know,
four mile radius where our,where we are, our entire world
is, is curtailed by those whohave ownership or control of our
labor and our bodies and, andeven our own, our dignity or
attempt to.
And so it's in that regard thatI ask you to think about people
(25:30):
coming into.
the North and not necessarilybeing fully integrated into
Protestant Christianity, the waythat we understand it in
America.
And again, this is a group, I'mnot saying that we don't have a
thriving century old traditionof Protestantism in the church
with African Americans, we do,but I'm talking about something
(25:51):
separate from that in these rankand file of folks who have lived
their entire lives, mainlycircumscribed by the dick.
harsh dictates of, of plantationculture, both as chat through
entitled slavery and a Jim Crowsystem of their cropping.
So it's in that, so, so if wethink about that, then the 20th
century, it's not just thevoices problem of the color line
(26:13):
that we're facing.
The 20th, that's the way, that'sthe, the oppression from
without.
But when you look at themovement from within, you see
freed men and women attemptingto literally create culture that
we have the, in the North, wehave the.
The Harlem Renaissance or theNegro Renaissance, we have
people standing up and saying,you know writing poems and plays
and novels exploring thisidentity of this newly free of
(26:37):
this, this, this person, one totwo generations out of, out of
slavery and, and and, and sothat, that story, that narrative
of assuming responsibility forourselves, for African
Americans.
that narrative can never beunderstood separately from
religious consciousness.
And, and it's here that we seethe emergence and the
(27:01):
flourishing of what are known asthe storefront churches.
And we'll have the millennialtraditions coming in and the the
Pentecostalism and, and, and,and prophets of city.
We'll have everyone from fatherto divine to big daddy grace to
Deuce Muhammad Ali.
You'll have Marcus Garvey.
You'll have so many different.
(27:21):
You'll have the, you'll havethe, the creation of what would
be known as the, the, the Hebrewblack Jews, et cetera.
And, and this is also the sameperiod that this percolation
will include the genesis ofIslam as an effort to, to reform
the culture.
If, if, if Bishop Henry McNeilTurner and others can criticize
(27:41):
Christianity and say, Whoa,Whoa, Whoa, We worship one God,
but we don't worship, we're not,we're not making divine a man or
a European man.
You know, and what you know, youhave people saying God is me or
God is black or God is, youknow, so you have all these
different efforts during thisperiod, or you have people
rejecting the notion of God atsome of the higher levels of
(28:05):
intellectuals, and whatever,whatever you have, and there's a
wonderful story about Thurman atWarhouse dealing with that with
Frasier, but we don't have timeto go into that.
But, but, but the, theoverarching Consensus was that
there must be a God, and that weare worshipping him, and now
we're going to make him our,him, we're going to make our
worship of him our own.
And we're going to do it in away that truly liberates us, and
(28:27):
truly brings human dignity, andtruly protects the innocence of
our society, of our culture, ofour humanity.
And that's a, that's a lovelystory that we don't have time to
get into in greater detail thanthat.
But with with with, I wanted togive a kind of context to
understand why I'm looking atIslam and African American Islam
as a vital development inAfrican American religion
(28:49):
itself.
And if you go all the way into,if you talk about the nation of
Islam this one was born andemerged right in the milieu, the
same milieu that I'm talkingabout.
So you have these scores offolks coming Southern migrants,
you know, many without anyeducation, some with what first,
second, third grade, very fewmade it all the way through a
finished education, which wouldhave been about eighth grade for
(29:12):
the average educated American atthat time.
Many even illiterate, not all,but so at this time in any
wilderness of these, theseurban, what would become these
urban ghettos This is where,where Islam is born for, for
Americans and for AfricanAmericans and I won't go into
detail with the story of, of W.
D.
Farhad Muhammad, but he has beendescribed by one scholar,
(29:34):
Richard Brent Turner, as themost important Muslim missionary
of the 20th century.
And I would not argue with that.
I would support that 100percent.
But if he was the most importantmissionary of the 20th century,
then why are there so manyAmericans that don't even know
Okay, have WD for Mohammed asthe progenitor of the Nation of
(29:55):
Islam.
And then you also have the honorof Elijah Mohammed, who was a
migrant coming from Georgia bornas Elijah pool and eventually
become Elijah Mohammed and thehonor of Elijah Mohammed as the
leader of the Nation of Islam.
But in this group, from itsinception in the early thirties,
and remember.
To give more historical context,it we're not just dealing with
the great migration now, but thetime we get to the 30s, we've
(30:18):
had the, the, the, thedepression.
And so we have people out ofwork and for African Americans,
it was a saying last hired,first fired.
So many men who were coming tothe promised land for a new
opportunity there.
Are are disappointed anddisillusioned when they get
there, and they're not findingwhat they need spiritually in
the established churches.
Some of them might not even beaccepted.
(30:40):
Because again, they're comingstraight from that culture of
the slave plantation, andthey're definitely not finding
the economic.
Independence that they were,that they were looking for.
So it's in this setting that theNation of Islam was born.
And again, the same way we weretalking about nurturing and
being that, that nurturingstarting before the baby is
actually born, but during thatgestation period, in this
(31:02):
gestation period of AfricanAmerican religious thought that
leads to freedom and, and, and,and liberation, the, the freedom
and liberation that we have,that we take for granted in the
21st century during this period.
The Nation of Islam createdorganizations designed to
cultivate, to nourish, and togrow discipline and community
(31:25):
life.
And this was, you had the Fruitof Islam, which was, was,
scholars like to describe it asa paramilitary organization, but
that was designed to teachdiscipline and organization.
For, for boys and men, even boyswould join the junior of route
and then you have the MGTGCC,which was the Muslim girls
training and generalcivilization class where good
(31:45):
habits of domesticity werereinforced and, and, and
communal life and, and, and,and, and, and community life.
So, so the genesis, so the righthere in the 1930s and, we know
that without going too intothat, we every, we started this
conversation talking abouteducation and scholarship and
taking ownership over thescholarship, the education of
(32:07):
our children, no matter whatinstitution again in the 1930s,
when you have some parents whoare illiterate or barely
literate, this organization, theNation of Islam is saying.
Control, be responsible for yourchildren's education.
Do not get that society that hasbeen so harmful to them, to the
psyche, to the understanding.
And so you have the genesis ofwhat would become, you know
(32:27):
homeschooling beforehomeschooling was legal.
And then you have the genesis ofthe first parochial Islamic
school system in the countrywith Muhammad University of
Islam.
So all of these things wereright.
They are for and anotherimportant thing to understand
about the nation of Islam in somany directions that we could go
that I'll say this and then kindof turn it back over to use to
see if there's another directionyou want to go, or if I have
(32:49):
more time to talk about this,but is it the nation of Islam
was conceived of conceived of asthe lost, found, found Nation of
Islam in the wilderness of NorthAmerica, and its mission was to
all African Americans.
It was to revive and to lift upfrom this dead level all African
Americans.
So it was whether you acceptedyour own, which as the saying
(33:09):
went, and you accepted a newidentity as a righteous Muslim,
or whether you did not this wasfor you.
It was to revive and torevitalize.
So many of the age oldquestions.
The African American leaders andeducators and intellectuals have
been grappling with it, slavery,honestly, or being resolved in,
in this, the both in themythology, in the, the esoteric
(33:33):
packaging of the nation ofIslam, as well as in the
practical programs or theesoteric I'm sorry, exoteric
programs of the nation of Islam.
So, so there's a complete range.
Just like the umbilical cordkind of feeds you there.
People like to talk about it.
Scholars like to talk about thenation of Islam as a cult.
And I would say it was only acult in the sense that you don't
(33:53):
allow everything into the wombwhen the baby is being tortured
at gestational or else the babywon't survive.
But instead you feed the baby adiet of what the baby needs to
become productive.
And when, when it's out in theworld or just as I,
Faridah (34:08):
wow we will indeed have to have you back for a part two
of this conversation.
There is no humanly possible waythat we can exhaust the
questions that I have on myscreen in front of me, or even
to plumb the depths of whatyou've shared with us.
So, in, in wrapping up thisepisode and Dr.
Farnoosy, I pray that you willhonor us with your presence
(34:28):
again so that we may continuethis conversation.
One of the things that I wantedto ask you, you brought up the
umbilical cord and you spokeabout how this is, I asked the
con this question kind of in thecontext of not only the
development of Al Islam inAmerica, but also the African
American self determination andyou, you deftly wove the two of
(34:50):
those together.
And one of the things that I'mthinking of, even as you spoke
of education and ourresponsibility to educate our
own, is that not only did thenation of Islam schools, the
Muhammad university of Islam,which eventually became the
sister Clara Muhammad schoolsystem not only was, was that a
product, but we also saw aflowering across the United
States of African Americanindependent.
(35:11):
educational institutions.
So whether that washomeschooling, and now we know
the homeschooling movement is,is booming in terms of African
American parents and families,but also this idea of
independent institutions,whether they were affiliated
with the nation of Islam or not,that, that element of self
determination was critical.
And it was indeed fed, like yousaid by this river.
(35:34):
of dignity and selfdetermination from the nation of
Islam.
And so in that vein, I justwould like to say as we wrap up
today's conversation 2025 marks95 years into the flowering of
Al Islam in America through thisparticular tradition.
And as you so astutely sharedwith us that this is something
(35:54):
that has evolved alongside theevolution of the African
American person and peoplehood.
It's also 50 years into theQuranic logic and leadership of
Imam Muhammad, who inherit youknow, who became the leader upon
the death of his father, thehonorable Elijah Muhammad in
1975.
So you know, I know women don'tlike to, to remark on their
ages.
(36:14):
But, you know, we are twins, andwe were born into that
leadership in 1975.
So as yes so as as a daughter ofthis community of this
particular history, as a scholarof its history and as a mother
of its future, not justliterally, but through your
scholarship and what you yourpublic scholarship, I would
(36:36):
emphasize how would you, howwould you what are your thoughts
on where we are now given this,this particular history and
where that places us as anAfrican American people in the
world today?
Fanusie (36:50):
Wonderful, wonderful note to end on.
Well, yeah, I'm, I'm verygrateful that we had this, this
long, rich tradition of, ofleadership with W.
D.
Farran Muhammad, the HonorableElijah Muhammad, a memoir.
And it's really not limited tothese Islamic leaders.
We were quick to praise, youknow Marcus Mosiah Garvey Booker
(37:15):
T.
Washington.
We had Fred Douglass, FrederickDouglass, rich, rich heritage
and legacy of spirituallycharged prophets, if you will,
or these people who are.
Receiving inspiration from Godto, to help to lift their people
up, you know, and, and Frederickthought, and any of these men
(37:35):
and women both the, the signheroes and those that we are,
are less familiar with if yousee their biology, the I'm
sorry, their biography, theaspects of their life, whether
it was penned by their own handor other scholars writing about
them or contemporaries, you willsee that they rarely even made a
decision without there's mainlyBible.
And then as we get into the 20thcentury, of course, the Quran
and other influences, spiritualother scripture.
(37:58):
There's but with the 1975 with,you know, having a six setter, a
leader whose movement wasdesigned to to ease the
oppressed psyche of the mostdowntrodden member of American
society, who is indeed existingon the peripheries, the economic
(38:20):
peripheries and margins ofsocial peripheries.
Margins left alone, evensometimes by educated and into
an influential AfricanAmericans, but that that person,
you know, we have thisorganization does not have that
list lifting up part of thateasing this oppressed psyche was
to give an understanding ofidentity.
(38:44):
That is coming not from yourhierarchical position in society
as, as man, be they European,American, African, anyone has,
has, has, has envisioned it, notfrom a, a manipulated version of
what someone says that scripturesays you're supposed to say.
(39:04):
I referenced that other things,but from a, an organic
understanding of the purpose ofhuman being and the dignity of
human being that I would argue,even our founding fathers, even
those who enslaved others were,were still.
putting into the American theDeclaration of Rights and the
(39:27):
Constitution, but this organicunderstanding that, that, that
human life comes from God andthat all human beings aspire to
liberty and freedom and thatkind of thing.
So this identity, we, the Nationof Islam was one of the earliest
organizations to link thatidentity.
To the scriptural identity andthe scriptural understanding
(39:49):
what now in the nation of Islam.
We are our identity and worth isnot predicated upon our past
experiences.
It's not predicated on the factand it doesn't disprove any of
these things, but it's notpredicated on the fact that we
have, we are analogous to the,the, the ancient Hebrews as most
Moses led them out of the theWell, oppression and capture
(40:10):
under the pharaoh duringpharaonic times in Egypt to the
wilderness for freedom.
It's not there are manyparallels for us as African
American people.
And we've had this notion ofcovenant that hinges upon that,
but with the nation of Islam, oreven Garvey's movement, even
though the reinforced all theseprinciples, the way.
His movement is predicated onblackness or your identity as a
(40:32):
descendant of Africans here forthe first time with the nation
of Islam.
We have at least thematicallythis idea that our, our, our
identity is based upon ourhumanity as a servant of God.
And there was a lot of symbolicor pictorial language.
So I'm not going to say thatthat is the identity or the
understanding that every rankand file member, Muslim
(40:53):
believing member of the nationof Islam had, but it was.
built into the catechism that wehave this new self, that the
nation of Islam is returning usto our original self, and that
that original self was arighteous Muslim.
But then we have to make surethat we're using the word Muslim
the way it is intended by,through the language of the the
Arabic language of the Quran,that it was revealed in the
(41:15):
scriptural language, and not thecultural language of Muslims and
Islamic societies.
And in that, we're, that saying,Muslim is just one who submits
fully to the creator.
And God describes And identifiesAbraham, the father of all the
religions, as a believer of God.
Further lifts Abraham up anddistinguishes him as the friend
of God.
So this, that's what's kind of,to me earth shattering.
(41:38):
And but there's still so muchlanguage and mythology that was
designed to intellectuallypunish or spank the progenitors
of Christian Protestantism inAmerican society as it had
flourished up to that time and,and, and, and, and especially
because of the.
Then to which it leaned on thisfalse doctrine of the or
(42:00):
ideology of white supremacy andthis false picture of God as a
European human being with blondehair and blue eyes.
So the nation of Islam had toremember this is also the time
of and I'm getting to ImamMahmood, but this is also the
time of Science of Farida,what's that science called?
Eugenics.
And, and, and, yes, yes, andwe're in the highest
universities of the land.
People are making insidiousclaims about humanity that go
(42:25):
against the notion ofunderstanding the scriptural
notion of humanity being onefamily.
So, at that time, you have this,this doctrine coming from Farad
that's speaking on multiplelevels.
And then not all, we don't get asense of react, we don't sense
of scripture.
Or a sense of our identity thatis completely rooted in reality.
Instead, we have hints and, and,and cloaked in, in its own
(42:48):
doctrine and its own mythology.
But if you fast forward to 1975,then you have the son of the
honorable Muhammad.
You know, this is a man who'sbusiness to remake the world.
Not to remake America, not toremake the United States of
America, but to remake the worldand the money, what, but what
his, his, his words and actionswere right where he put his
(43:11):
money right there immediately,you know, beginning campaigns
that all over the country toeradicate this dangerous and,
and disease thinking of, of theThe supremacy of one human being
over another and remade in theimage of, or posing as the
creator of the divine.
And that was a campaign calledCrade or the committee to remove
(43:33):
all images of attempting toportray the divine and, and that
as its goal to get signaturesfrom European Americans, not
just African Americans all overthe country, and to present
these to the Pope in Romesaying, you know what, we've got
to stop these false images.
And it was very successful.
But that this notion that thenation of Islam was healing the
(43:55):
oppressed psyche of the mostdowntrodden member of society in
1975 with this 50 what hasbecome now a 50 year leadership
we're moving into 50 years ofcelebrating this continuing
leadership that is still strongand exists.
We have this.
We can see a full flowering ofan understanding.
(44:15):
You have the sons and daughtersand grandsons and granddaughters
and great grandsons andgranddaughters with this
understanding of their ownidentity as human beings,
purpose or destination to beinheritors of, of the mantle or
leadership of acting in the bestinterest, of the most innocent
in our hu in our human society.
And to preserve that and toeducate that and the culture to,
(44:39):
to nurture, to nourish it.
So so that we can in, so that wecan actually have freedom,
justice, and equality.
And with Emman Martin Muhammadthat, you know, 50 years of that
leadership.
I think that, you know, there'sa saying, a tradition among
Muslims that 40 is a year ofmaturity.
So if you look at this 40 yearsof gestation, we, we, we have
(45:00):
these mature individuals likeyourself, myself, and others in
our, you know, who are mothersas us as women, we are mothers.
And yes, I consider myself amother to, you know, needing to
birth scholarship, et cetera.
But I think the most importantthing.
That we can birth and that wehave the biggest responsibility
we have upon us is to nurtureand be mothers of to be wounds
(45:23):
for the protection and thecultivation of human life, of
our future, of our young people,of education, you know,
protecting their education,their, their moral
consciousness, their values,and, and and we cannot do that
independently.
We cannot do that as, as, asindividual group, individual
people.
We have, yes, it starts in thefamily, but we have to be
creating a community.
(45:44):
We have to be creatinginstitutions and we have to be
creating culture that affectsour own, but that spreads all,
all, all through this countryand, and, and hopefully all
through the world.
Faridah (45:56):
So you, you.
ended where you indeed you beganand that is with the purpose and
destiny of the human being andyou gave us a beautiful vision
for realizing that within ourfamilies this is a family ties
the prescription for society andwe firmly believe that within
the the The sign, you know, therevelation of God in our own
(46:19):
creation is the the remedy forthat and so I I'm listening to
you And you you gave us abeautiful vision for how we can
empower ourselves and take backresponsibility For educating our
own children within the womb ofthe family no matter their
formal or informal education wealone have the responsibility as
(46:41):
families and communities to Togive them a picture of the human
being that begins with theFather Adam, and proceeds to
Noah and Abraham, Moses andJesus and Muhammad and to see
themselves in their owndevelopment in Bishop Richard
Allen and David Walker,Frederick Douglas, j Jina Lee
Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman,Booker t Washington, WEB Du Bois
(47:03):
Garvey, Dr.
King, honorable Elijah Muhammadand Iman, Martha, Dean Muhammad,
that this is a shared legacy ofpurpose and destiny that is.
inextricably linked to our humanexperience.
But within the cauldron of humanchattel slavery, a people was
created.
A people was created to witnessto mankind, the pursuit of a
(47:24):
just order.
And it came with lots ofstruggle, but it came to witness
for mankind that the strugglefor excellence and human dignity
for freedom, justice, andequality indeed must come from
and come with the divineguidance found in scripture and
in the world around us.
So as we close again, this isfamily ties.
(47:44):
And I recall that you, you saidsomething earlier that you
wanted to return to.
So I'm wondering if you justhave one minute to share with us
any closing practical advice forparents who are sharing you
know, who are raising not onlyscholars who will literally go
into the academy and benefitsociety that way, but the role
of scholarship nurturing that asa, as a way of life and a vision
(48:07):
for how they, they behave in theworld.
Fanusie (48:10):
I will say three things, especially in this age
of the omnipresent device read,read and read.
Read to your Children.
If they're too young to read,have them read and and provide.
I don't let them go on.
Give them their list becausehonestly, they really aren't
getting it in the schoolsanymore lose the aspects of
popular culture that we havechildren watch television.
(48:32):
They watch give them somedocumentaries.
Everyone should every childbetween the age of 10 and 18.
Should be should have seen theentire eyes on the series.
Yes Start there and then you canincorporate some of the newer
things.
Some of that are documents thereThey use their the curriculum
that you're giving to themindependently of what they're
(48:53):
getting in school, or if you'rea home school give them
narratives of their own historyof the history of the larger
history of our, our, ourcountry,
Faridah (49:01):
Dr.
Farnusi, I appreciate you.
We, we need you back for acontinuation of this
conversation.
Our families are critical to ourestablishment and to the
salvation of our nation andindeed of humanity.
As you said, you reminded us wewere invited to remake the world
and we need to do that with theguidance of our creator.
(49:21):
The praise.
is for God as always.
We've moved one step closer todestination excellence.
Until next time, let us remainconscious of our creator, of the
sacred relationship of parentand child, and of the family
ties that bind us.
Subscribe to the podcast andcome back next time for a new
episode of The Family Ties.
(49:42):
On behalf of my guest, Dr.
Fatima Fanousi, and myself,Farida Abdul Tawa Brown, peace
be upon the family.
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