The Fertility Industry’s Dark Secret, Told by Two of Its Kids

This episode nearly vanished. Literally. When Corey bumped into fellow podcaster Jeremy Bryant at a New England podcast event, he recognized his voice before placing his face. Then it hit him, they had already recorded an episode of Family Twist with Jeremy, but somehow, that recording got lost.

So here it is. Jeremy’s story is about learning he was donor-conceived, discovering a growing list of half-siblings, and reconciling that truth after the father who raised him had already passed. It’s also about navigating what happens when the story you’ve always been told turns out to be wrong. Also, Jeremy hosts a paranormal podcast, so yes, you may hear something strange in the background.

The second half of the episode features an update with Jeremy’s half-sister Amber. Her discovery led to a national media moment. Amber is the creator of Biohacked, both a podcast and a documentary project about donor conception, secrecy, and the need for reform in the fertility industry. She also created a welcome packet for new half-siblings, because when your biological father helped conceive dozens of people, there is some onboarding involved.

Together, Jeremy and Amber offer two very different reactions to the same truth. One chose peace. One chose action. Both are unforgettable.

The Fertility Industry’s Dark Secret, Told by Two of Its Kids

Topics Covered

• Jeremy’s discovery story and the moment his mom told him the truth
• Grieving a lost parent while uncovering a second one
• What happens when you meet your biological father after a DNA surprise
• Amber’s origin story, and how it unraveled completely
• From being called a “miracle baby” to finding out the truth
• Creating a welcome packet for incoming half-siblings
• How donor-conceived people are fighting for regulation, recognition, and rights
• The emotional fallout of secrecy in the fertility industry

Resources Mentioned

• Jeremy’s podcast, Paranormal the New Normal
• Amber’s podcast and documentary project, Biohacked
• Donor Conceived Community (donorconceivedcommunity.org)
• NPR and other national media coverage of Amber’s story

Share Your Story

Have you uncovered a secret through a DNA test or a forgotten conversation?

Contact us at [e-mail]. We’re always looking for the next twist.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
Hello, it's Corey from Family Twist.

(00:02):
Today's episode is a little bitof a surprise, which is fitting
for us, right?
We recently unearthed what we'recalling a lost interview with a
fellow podcaster named JeremyBryant.
Funny story.
While I was at the last NewEngland podcasters group
meeting, I heard Jeremy speakand immediately thought, wait a
second, I know that voice.
Turns out he'd been a guest onFamily Twist a while back, but

(00:23):
somehow that conversation nevermade it to air.
Now Jeremy's story is afascinating one.
He's donor-conceived and one ofa growing number of
half-siblings connected througha sperm donor program in Albany,
New York.
He's also the host of aparanormal podcast, so if you're
a little static or the kind ofsomething unexplained is
recording, well, maybe that'snot just a tech glitch.

(00:46):
And after Jeremy's story, we'regonna reintroduce you to his
half-sister Amber, who's becomean outspoken advocate for
donor-conceived rights.
Rick?
So settle in for this doublefeature of DNA surprises with
two half siblings.
There's a touch of supernatural,and people whose stories remind
us that truth really does findits way out, sometimes years

(01:06):
later, and sometimes through ahaunted microphone.
Thank you for joining us againon Family Twist.
Our guest this episode is afellow podcaster, Jeremy Bryant.
Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
So I understand you've got avery interesting family twist,
and I only know just a littlebit about it, so I'm excited to

(01:28):
hear more.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
You could say that.
Elaborate, long story, and a lotof changes over the years.
I don't know if you want me tojump right into it or not.
Sure.

SPEAKER_04 (01:36):
Let's go back to the beginning, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Alright, so I grew up your typical white suburban
American kid.
All the stuff you see in thememes on Facebook is true.
That's how it was.
My parents ended up gettingdivorced starting when I was in
middle school until I was inhigh school.
So it was a long time coming.
One of the days my mom justhappened to be extra pissed off
my father that day.
She just told me she's like,we're singing in the living

(02:00):
room, and she's just like, I gotsomething I want to tell you
guys, but I don't know if Ishould.
I started guessing, because youknow, I'm like the wise ass, and
that's what I do.
And I'm like, my brother's notmy real brother.
I was like kind of hoping onthat one.
But you know, that wasn't true.
Eventually I said, Dad's not areal dad, is he?
And she just said, like straightout said, like, how do you know
that?

(02:20):
And I'm like, we look nothingalike.
I've towered over him since Iwas in middle school, but but
yeah, it ended up being that myfather had cancer when he was in
college, and the radiationkilled his soldiers.
So they had to use a donor.
They went through all the rightmethods and everything, like

(02:41):
everybody did back then thatwanted to do it, which
apparently where I lived, youwent to Albany for that, and
there was a lot of differentpeople I know I now know of that
had their parents do that tomake them.
But but so basically that's wefound out the truth and
apparently the whole family knewexcept for us, basically.
How many siblings do you have?
They just be your brother, butit's expensive.

(03:03):
Did they use the same donor?
Yeah, we'll get to thateventually, but yeah, yeah,
yeah, they did.
But um, yeah, so I mean it'sexpensive.
It's and they only did it twice,and then that was enough.
They didn't want any more kidsthan that.
My dad, of course, was at work,and he as soon as my mom told
him and said, Hey, they know, hecame out to the house and like

(03:23):
was just like hugging, crying,like hugging while crying, and
like like apologizing, saying hedidn't want us to find out that
way.
And we're just like, it's notthat big a deal.
It doesn't change anything.
You've always been our dad.
It's not like that's not gonnamake you dad anymore, right?
You've always been the dad,whether you're genetically or
not, who cares?
You're still dad.
So moving forward from that, Imean, it after that, just kind

(03:46):
of like we knew it, but itdidn't change anything, it
didn't matter, so we didn'treally talk about it for a good
I mean, unless I'm explaining tolike one of my girlfriends
throughout the years, like why Idon't look like my dad.
But other than that, like itjust kind of dropped until well
uh the two really aren'trelated, but my dad passed in
2017 from a heart surgery hecouldn't come back from.

(04:06):
But cancer too, because theradiation destroyed the
saccharine's heart.
So because late 70s radiationwas not anywhere near today.
Right, right.
But he passed away in October of2017, and at Christmas I bought
ancestry tests for myself and mymother just uh for shits and

(04:26):
giggles, and because we alwaysargue over what we have besides
Italian.
So we got him back, and I waslike, all right, I'm like, um,
European Jewish, I don't knowwhat that means, but yeah, I
looked into it and I guess ithas nothing to do with the
actual religion, it's just thegroup of people that lived in
Europe at certain times.
So a couple months passed, andeventually I get a message, I

(04:47):
think in like February or Marchof after that Christmas, and
it's from this girl, and shestraight up says, like, I think
you may be my half-brother.
Did your parents use a spermdonor?
And right away I'm like, Yeah, Iknow, yeah, they did.
I I know they did.
And she's like, I think we'refrom the same donor.
Wow.
And it basically turned intothis one she already knew about

(05:12):
two other half-sisters beforeshe found me, my brother.
And since then, we found twomore half-brothers, actually,
three more half-brothers, andmaybe a couple of half-sisters
or more too.
We've had overall, there's abouteight or nine of us in a group
chat right now that we talk toeach other through all the time.
It's we call it DC family, don'tequity family, but it basically

(05:34):
has turned into this amazingthing where I mean I haven't yet
to meet any of them.
My brother has met most of them,my full brother has met most of
them, but I don't travel as muchas he does, so I don't get a
chance to go see people.
Might be seeing one the end ofthis month.
Maybe, maybe, I don't know.
He said he was gonna go on atrip to run to I don't know if
he was just drinking that nightor something.
Some of them want nothing to dowith us.

(05:54):
Like, we've met a couple, andlike my one half sister even has
like a PDF package he sends outwith like all the information
about our donor Kirk, who Iemail back and forth with for
like one message, and then justbecause I got nothing I really
want.
I need to get him.
Like, yeah, I mean, if I need tofind out some medical history
someday, at least I can contacthim.
But I don't need to go to himand do anything, like it's just

(06:16):
like I'm not looking for someoneto replace my father.
I would love to meet the man.
Don't get me wrong.
I've been told by myhalf-sisters that I sound just
like him, so I would love tomeet the man just to compare
things.
But and I mean, he was actuallya he he was a doctor.
He was going to college to be adoctor at that time, and that
was how he made money on theside was dirty HBO.

SPEAKER_04 (06:35):
Well, medical school is very expensive, and sounds
like he was at the clinic prettyfrequently.

SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
Yeah, I th yeah.
They're actually my half-sisterand her friend did a podcast
about it called Biohacked, wheremy half-sister was on the first
three episodes talking about hersituation, and it was actually
her and Kirk Kirk and Kirkmeeting for the first time.
And like their their likeinterviews that with like
afterwards, like how they feltabout it and everything.
It's it's they moved away fromthat topic towards the second

(06:59):
season, so I haven't listened tothe show since.
But it's just I mean, I got shotout in the course, like because
all all all the half half bros,half-sisters did, but it's just
it's interesting.
Like, you never would imagineyou all these people were half
family to you, and that younever knew they existed in that.
Apparently, we all lived withina hundred, two hundred mile

(07:20):
radius of each other growing upbecause our parents all went to
Albany to get sperm from spermbank.
Yeah.
I'm in Massachusetts now in NewYork.
So are they kind of allscattered around the New York
area or a coup my my my fullbrother, along with I believe
one of the half-sisters, livesin Florida.
A couple live around the NewYork.
They moved upstate when COVIDhappened, but they still live in

(07:41):
New York.
But and then the other ones, Iam honestly not too sure where
they live.
I think it's more they're outmidwest somewhere now, but I'm
not 100% sure.
We stay at times, but we don'twe're not talking to each other
on a daily or weekly basis oranything.
It's just like we we all haveour own lives, our own kids, uh
most of us have our own kids andour own specific others to deal
with.
So I mean it's hard enough.

(08:03):
What's the age range of yoursiblings?
Well, I'm turning 35 thisFriday, actually.
But my brothers, my full brotheris almost two years younger than
me.
So they're all in their early30s to maybe late 30s.
I think I'm I'm not the oldest,but I'm close to the oldest.
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 (08:20):
And what does your mom think of the finding these
half siblings?

SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
She thought it was cool.
I mean, she did she was moreamazed that she felt like I
could see a picture of thedonut.
Yeah.
That was the thing because likeyou could see because we always
wondered where we got our nosesfrom.
We always thought there was bigItalian noses, because that's
what we were told.
Yeah.
But my mom's side of the familyis Italian, fully.
Well, for the most part, fully.
But it turns out that it comesfrom Kurt, because he has the

(08:49):
same exact nose I do, and he'sthe same exact eye as my eye
sheet, my brother does.
It's just like you look at thepicture, you could look at
either picture of either of us,and you're just like, wow, the
similarities are striking.
So I mean, she thinks it's cool,but I mean, she almost made a
joke at one point.
Like, what about all the moms?
Should we say we should have asupport group for all this?
I'm like, I'm like, why?
Ours is like the least tragicstory of any of my

(09:10):
half-siblings.
Like, it's just because we we itwasn't like uh like I'm pretty
sure one of them, like, evenlike their parents hid it from
them until they found out theywere an ancestry to us.
And like, you can't do that.
Like, that's that those are thestories you hear about where
it's just like, oh, like on theon the on the podcast they did
biohack, like they a lot ofpeople tell their stories like

(09:30):
that where like it causes somuch turmoil and trauma in the
family.
With us, it was something thathappened that was over in like a
day when they told us.
Like, it wasn't a big deal, itdidn't change a thing, it didn't
change a freaking thing in theworld except we knew what we
always suspected anyway.
And it's better than hearing,oh, I cheated on your father
with biomand.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (09:46):
So I mean, it is surprising how many people find
out that way, though.
I mean, we've had several peopleon the show who have talked
about the how they found out wasafter their parents have died,
they're going through like theirpapers and stuff, and then they
find they find something thatway.
It's like not only did they notfind out their parents never
tell them, but they can't askthem about it either because

(10:07):
they're dead.

SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
I get why they do it because when they were using
sperm donors back in the late80s, early 80s, whatever it was,
for all of this, they didn'tnever expect it to be a day
where you can get sand or spitin and get DNA back from it.
Once your kids are mature enoughto handle the truth, you should
show them the truth.
Like if you're if you're reallythe parent of your whole life
anyway and you're thereregardless, they're not gonna

(10:28):
think anything of you.

SPEAKER_04 (10:29):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
If you're a shitty father, then you got other
issues anyway.
So woohoo.
Like that's how you're gonna putit.

SPEAKER_05 (10:33):
I mean, you they're they're gonna find out
eventually.
Yeah, I always joke about mysituation because I always knew
I was adopted, and that my jokeabout my hometown is that the
the town was so small, if myparents tried to hide it,
there'd be no way everybodyknew, you know, it's like
because they had lived therebefore I was born and after, and

(10:55):
so there was no hiding that.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Oh yeah, it makes sense.
I mean, we grew up in a smalltown too, but I don't think our
town knew about this.
Some of them might have becausethey were friends of my parents
and whatnot, but just was neverlike a big thing that everybody
knew about.
Now, how did your sister findout who the donor was?
On her ancestry tree, there wassomebody on there who ended up
being the nephew of our donor.

(11:18):
She said how we related, comingup with blanks for how they were
related.
So at that point it was justlike, and she said, like, she's
like, I think I'm gonna berelated to the euro.
She asked, like, anyway and yourfamily ever donate for me.
Like, or be for or were theyaround the Albany area?
It's how she found out.
She found out through a relativethat was on the family tree.
And like it took him a while atfirst his family didn't want him

(11:41):
talking to her at all or sayinganything.
And then eventually Kurt justdecided, why do I care?
They're not gonna come to me formoney.
If they do, I guess turn away.
Like it's not a big deal.
So yeah, it took him a littlewhile to open it to it too.
How many of your half siblingshave a relationship with him
now?
One or two.
I mean, all the threehalf-sisters that started have

(12:01):
all met him together and theyhad like a little weekend out or
something.
But as far as I know, none of ushalf-brothers have met him yet.
I'd love to meet him today, buthe's also in the north side of
the country, so it's not.

SPEAKER_04 (12:12):
Has there been talk with your siblings about having
like a full on reunion with allof you?

SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
We've talked about it plenty, but a lot of us have
small children at this point,and it's just not right now.
That makes sense.
I mean, we're mostly on the EastCoast, so it wouldn't be that
hard, but still, you know, wehaven't really put it in emotion
yet.
And I mean, we all grow nice,we're all busy doing our own
thing.

SPEAKER_04 (12:32):
So I'm guessing your brother has been sort of on
board with this if he's met mostof your half-siblings.
What's his take on this wholeexperience?

SPEAKER_01 (12:41):
My brother doesn't like to talk emotions a lot, so
I mean, we never really eventalked about like it didn't mean
anything to us that he wasn'tour father, it's just what it
was.
So neither of us had any yellowfeelings towards anything to do
with it since it started.
I mean, he did a 23andme DNAtest before I did it, and they
were of ancestry and theycontacted me first.
That's just the way it went.
And I got him into it, andthat's just the way it went.

(13:04):
And then we he ended up he weended up meeting to some of them
because he was in New York Cityand he met a couple that he met
the couple that lived in NewYork City, and then he met the
one that lived in Florida whenhe moved to Florida.
Cool.
It just worked out.
I mean, in his travels, he metone of the half brothers too,
just because they happened tomeet up.
So my brother travels a lotthough, so it was always easy

(13:24):
for him to do that apparently.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (13:27):
So I've been listening to your uh podcast,
Paranormal, the new normal.
How did you get into thatsubject matter?
I was a kid.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
I used to take the one book out in elementary
school that had Bigfoot andLockmas and all those well-known
creatures in it, and I used toread it over and over again.
And from there it just kind ofwent away as I got older because
you know girls aren't intoBigfoot.
So I had to kind of leave itbehind for a while, but then
start listening to podcasts.
I just got into Bigfoot againmore and more, and I got another

(13:56):
paranormal stuff.
And when I started podcasting onanother podcast before that, I
they said you need to start yourown show with something you
love, and I was like, Alright,well, what do I love?
I'm like, paranormal.
So let's do a paranormalpodcast.

unknown (14:08):
Cool.

SPEAKER_04 (14:09):
Have you had any uh supernatural experiences?

SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Oh, I live in a haunted house, so yeah, kind of.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (14:16):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Just kind of the way it goes sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 (14:21):
But it's it's past years, yeah.
It wasn't marketed that way, iswhat you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
I don't think anybody would mark it that way.
Come and live with us.
Oh, I'm sure there's some peoplethat would love to live in a
haunted house.
But yeah, I mean it's justparanormal.
I like to think about thingsthat could be true but might not
be true, and try to just try toconnect the dots.
Like that's the fun of it.
Right.
Oh what kind of uh spirit was inthe house?

(14:48):
We believe it's just thegentleman who lived here before
us, but we don't know for sure.
And at this point, we just kindof want to get rid of it.
But did he die in the house?
Um, no, but that's TV lore thatthey have to haunt where they
die.

SPEAKER_04 (15:02):
So he's just coming back because this is the place
he knows.

SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Spirits can get attached to property just as
easily as they can to where theydie.
I mean, just the ones that getstuck where they die, it's
usually just a confusion of likeafter death.
Like it's usually like a suddenthing where they don't know
where they are.
What's one of the weirder thingsthat you've encountered since
you've been doing this?
Honestly, I don't I'm not likean experiencer like to that
degree.
I mean, just knowing there'ssomething around you and like

(15:31):
you could feel it.
Like I never seen it, but youcould feel it.
And like you and like we've hadchickens die from it.
We've had our we've had our dogsscreaming like they're being
murdered, but they're perfectlyfine.
Just so I mean it's just weirdthings happen, and you just
can't you can't do anythingabout it.
What do your siblings think ofthe podcast?
Well, they have actually nevertalked to me about it.

(15:51):
My brother just says do what youwant to do, what makes you
happy, but the rest of my halfsiblings I haven't really talked
to about that much.
They know I do it.
I assume they do, because Iposted enough on Facebook that
they have to do.
Right, right.
So I assume they know it's justwe never really talked about it.
So they haven't been on asguests.
Honestly, I never even thoughtto ask them that.
It's just I never lack forguests because there's so many
paranormal people, people whohave had experiences out there.
There's so many people studyingthe paranormal field nowadays

(16:12):
that it's just it's never endingthe amount of guests you can
get.

SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
Right, yeah, I can only imagine.
Ours is a little bit more, alittle, you know, tighter as far
as it's like the type of peoplethat you know would be good
guests for here.

SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
I mean, well, paranormal is the number one
podcast type out there rightnow, pretty much.
Besides, well, people arefascinated by it for sure.
Yeah, I mean, there's been aspiritual awakening that's been
going on since either 2012 or2015.
People's beliefs and when itstarted to change, but it's just
people are slowly becomerealizing there's more to this
world than we previously thoughtwith our go to church every

(16:47):
Sunday lives we lived where wedidn't think outside the bodies.

SPEAKER_04 (16:51):
So do you have any aspirations for what your
relationships will be like inthe future with your siblings?

SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
I'd like to get to meet them and maybe get to know
them a little bit, but I mean Ialso went 20 something, 28, 27
years of my life without knowingwho they are.
Or actually 30 years basically.
So I mean, it's also like it'snot gonna change my life
completely that I that they'rethey're they're there.
I mean, yeah, they they may looka little bit like me, or some of

(17:18):
them look a little bit more likemy brother, but I mean it's just
I don't know.
I just I mean they're there, I'dlove to meet them, I'd love to
spend time with them, but Idon't get time to do much of
anything between podcasting andreal life, so you know it's just
someday.

SPEAKER_04 (17:32):
Has the donor know like how many successful
pregnancies there were?

SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
No, you don't get they don't hear once they
donate, they don't getinformation back about it at
all.
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 (17:41):
Okay.
We interviewed someone a fewweeks ago who I think he's up to
like 75 siblings.

SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
I mean, yeah, we hypothesized there could be a
hundred out there easily.
But he actually has hypothesizedwhen he was on the other
podcast, he said that therecould have been anywhere from
100 to 200, like successful atleast, because he donated a lot
over the years to pay formedical school.
A lot of the doctors he wasgoing to college with, they
wanted intelligent young men whohad good health to do it.

SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
So we would love to hear if you do end up meeting
your siblings, we'd love to hearabout it.
So definitely keep in touch andlet us know what's going on with
your story.

SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 (18:20):
Cool, excellent.
Well, thank you so much, Jeremy.
And we'll definitely put yourpodcast links in the show notes
for this episode as well.
All right, absolutely.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

SPEAKER_05 (18:29):
Welcome, Amber.

SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Hi, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 (18:33):
Welcome.
We spoke to Jeremy Bryant, andthat led us to find out about
you and your experience withpodcasting.
And then we found your NPRarticle.
I mean, we're not stalking you,but it was it was all
interesting, and you know, Ilove to find similarities

(18:53):
between my story and otherpeople's stories.
So, what would you like to tellus about your discovery in your
DNA journey?

SPEAKER_00 (19:03):
I'll tell the shortest version possible.
Um, so I grew up being told Iwas a miracle baby.
My parents were told by theirdoctors that they could not have
children and they had lookedinto adoption, and then my mom
miraculously got pregnant.
I was a healthy baby.
I was raised with an adoptedsister, and I never questioned

(19:27):
that story.
My, you know, relatives would,you know, reinforce how badly I
was wanted and how hard it wasfor my parents when they
couldn't have children, and howgreat it was that they had this
miracle baby, like strong goldenchild vibes.
I was very close with my dadgrowing up.
My mom and I are very similarpersonality wise and tended to

(19:50):
clash a lot.
And my dad and my dad was thesafe parent.
And yeah, so I, you know, never,never thought anything.
Never, never, I didn't really.
I had, you know, the wholefertility industry did not
register to me at all.
It wasn't something in my world.
So fast forward to 2017, I got a23 me for Christmas from my

(20:16):
mother-in-law.
I had been interested inexploring my mom's family
history because my mom's dad wasNative American, my mom's mom
was a Holocaust survivor, theyboth had died really young, and
we didn't have a lot ofinformation about that side of
the family.
So I did the 23 me, my husbanddid it.

(20:37):
And the first thing that cameback was you were 50% Ashkenazi.
And I was like, I'm not Jewish.
No one in my family is Jewish.
Even where I grew up in ruralNew York State, there weren't
any Jewish people.
So I was puzzled by this.
After I finished college, Imoved to New York City.

(20:59):
And from the moment I moved toNew York City, people just
started assuming that I wasJewish.
Other Jewish people would assumeI was Jewish and I'd have to
constantly correct people andsay, Oh no, that's so funny.
I'm not.
And people would be like, Areyou sure?
And I was like, Yeah, I'm not.
And then I even had thesefriends, their parents were, you
know, these old like long beachJews.
And they were like, We're sure.

(21:20):
Like, we like when I did the23andme, they were like,
Whatever comes back, it doesn'tmatter.
We'll still love you, but weknow you're Jewish.
We know this in our heart.
And so when it came back, it waskind of this weird moment of
like, that was the sort of thefirst red flag of like everyone
sees something that I don't see.
So I was like, Oh, that's kindof funny.
So I called my parents becauseI've been told my whole life

(21:41):
that I was I was half Dutch.
My dad was Dutch, his parentswere Dutch.
They were really big on beingDutch.
I studied abroad in theNetherlands.
I have a Dutch tattoo.
It was a huge thing.

SPEAKER_05 (21:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
So I called my parents and I was like, what is
this?
And they were just like, weird.
That's so weird.
And my dad's like, I must beJewish and didn't know.
That's not so correct.
But again, on like DenialIsland, lots of people decided

(22:16):
to like hide their Jewishidentity for a variety of
reasons over the last couplecenturies.
Like there's been a lot of goodreasons to do that.
Who knows?
Like coming through EllisIsland, like what got lost, or
what whatever.
So I was able to ignore that redflag for a couple months in that
first 23andMe discovery.
I had two first cousins I didnot know.

(22:36):
But again, my mom has eightsiblings, a lot of them got kids
all over.
I sent both of them messagessaying, Hey, I matched as your
first cousin, but can you fillin the blanks?
Neither responded.
I get a message a couple monthslater from this woman named
Caitlin who says, Hi, I matchedwith you on 23 and me as your
half-sister.
Are you donor-conceived?

(22:58):
I immediately responded, No.

SPEAKER_03 (23:00):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:01):
I didn't know what that meant.
I had to Google her.
I was so deeply in denial.
Her and I were going back andforth, and God bless Caitlin,
she's a therapist, the bestperson to blow up your life
with.
She kept pushing me.
I was like, no, I'm notdonor-conceived.
My dad's my dad.
And she was like, Well, why doyou think that we matched?
And was telling me her story.

(23:22):
And she was like, Oh, yeah, mymom went to this clinic in
Albany, which is near where Igrew up.
And she used a sperm donor andshe told me when I was 11, and
nah.
And I was like, Yeah, no.
And I was so deeply denial.
I was like, you know what?
My dad and her mom had anaffair, and her mom had made up
this story.
I was texting my dad, becauseagain, I'm closer with my dad.

(23:42):
And I was like, Do you know whatthis is about?
And he was like, No.
And there, I was Googling, like,it was possible that like one of
my uncles could have been asperm donor and the genetic
match would be the same.
And I was going with that for awhile.
My dad's like, Yeah, I don'tknow.
Finally, I just couldn't stopthinking about it.
It was consuming me.
My parents had started to becomereally evasive, being weird all

(24:06):
the time.
So I was like, I'm gonna callthem and I'm gonna record the
phone call because at this pointI feel so gaslit.
I'm prepared for an emotionalconversation, and I don't want
to like just have kind of anemotional blackout where you
know the conversation happened,but you were so emotional you
don't know what was actuallysaid.
So I decided to record theconversation.
I'm a former journalist, so Ihave the recording app on my

(24:29):
phone.
And I called them and I was justlike, Look, like, what's going
on?
And my mom jumped in and told methey were both carriers of a
genetic disorder.
They were told they cannot havea healthy child.
They both agreed to move forwardwith a sperm donor, but it took
so long that when my mom finallydid get pregnant, the doctor

(24:54):
told her, Don't tell yourhusband, don't tell anyone.
Pretend like this neverhappened.
And so she, with that advicefrom her doctor, told my dad she
had stopped going to the clinicand that the baby was his.
They had a one in three chanceof having a healthy baby, was
their miracle baby.

SPEAKER_05 (25:14):
Whoa.
So your dad is here.
They had already discussed this,or is he hearing this for the
first time?

SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
So I found out later a week prior, she told him.
Okay.
She knew it was coming.
She knew the jig was up.
Yeah.
Yep.
Why she waited that long whenshe knew I was doing the
23andMe, she waited the lastpossible minute, so she told
him, and then they talked aboutit and decided to tell me.
Um, it was insane.

(25:44):
I couldn't believe what I wasbeing told.
She was angry with me forblowing up her secret.
My dad was beside himself indenial.
He kept asking if we could get apaternity test.

SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
So it was really messy.
I held it together on the phonewith them, and then I called my
husband, and everything cameout.
And I was crying so hard Icouldn't breathe and I couldn't
talk.
He thought I got in a caraccident.
Oh, he was like, Where are you?
I just kept screaming.
My dad's.

SPEAKER_04 (26:13):
Amber, how old is your adoptive sister?
Are you are you older than her?

SPEAKER_00 (26:18):
I am.
She's eight months younger thanme.

SPEAKER_04 (26:20):
Oh wow.
I was a little surprised thisdidn't come out sooner because
it's not a stigma there, becauseyou've got an adopted sister.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
My sister is black, and it's a kinship adoption.
It was a guardianship thatturned into an adoption.
So it was kind of you know, hermom was in the mix, like she
kind of knew like that wasalways out there.
And that was one of the things II was really flummoxed by is I
was just like they they werealways big on like you have to

(26:51):
tell the truth, like we'realways gonna be honest with you.
And then, you know, it was justI was so flummoxed by you know,
I I looked back on all thesetimes where there was an opening
to tell, and my mom just didn't.
And that was the thing that Iwas most upset about is I had a
medical issue a couple yearsprior.

(27:11):
And my doctor was like, youknow, I think you're fine, but
you should talk to your momabout her medical history.
She had a hard time gettingpregnant.
If you want to have kids, youshould know what that history
is.
And so I called my mom and I waslike, Hey, I'm having this
medical issue.
They want me to talk to youabout your fertility history.
Can you tell me anything?
Wow, we just couldn't getpregnant.
And like, I looked back on thatand I was like, one, that was

(27:33):
like I was giving you that wasthe moment to be like, actually,
you know what, it's time to tellyou.
I was asking you about my hell,and you lied to me.

SPEAKER_04 (27:43):
Wow, she that was tough.
Was she taking this to thegrave?

SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (27:49):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
After much therapy, you know, it was I I understand
that like there was no like badintentions, right?
Like, she wanted my dad to be mydad, she wanted to have a child
with him, she wanted all thesethings to be true.
And in 1986, like, there's noDNA, there's no genetic testing,

(28:12):
she had a doctor saying, Don'ttell anyone.
So I really think that she wasjust like, This is the right
thing to do.
This is the thing that will hurtthe least amount of people.
And that that was the decisionshe made, and it took a long
time for her to come around onunderstanding why it was so
important for me to know.

SPEAKER_05 (28:33):
In the back of her mind, she probably thought that
Amber's dad is her dad.
It was always a slim possibilityfor her.
Exactly.
It was the path of leastresistance.

SPEAKER_04 (28:43):
What gets me is the DNA test consumer market has
been pretty popular for morethan a decade.
That, you know, at some pointyou would think like she'd get a
little worried.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
It's funny you say that because when we got the
23andMe, I told her I was doingit.
It was her family.
I was looking to learn.
She goes, Well, we can't reallytrust those.
Yeah.
It's like DNA is how they catchmurderers.
What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_05 (29:12):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
She was like, you can't be sure.
Now I look back on that and Iwas like, oh, the wheels were
turning.
And she was wondering how muchtime she had left.

SPEAKER_05 (29:19):
Well, and you wonder how much angst it gave her.
I can't imagine having thatsecret from your own child and
how torturous that could be.
And your husband.
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
And your husband.
It was a really big secret.
My mom's had a tough life.
I think there was a lot of stuffthat she's just always been able
to push down.
And I think this was just onemore thing where she was just
like, If I don't think about it,if it's if nobody knows about
it, it's not real.

SPEAKER_04 (29:45):
How soon did you tell your friends' parents you
were Jewish?

SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
I told them almost immediately, and they were
overjoyed.
They were like, We knew it, weknew it.
It's now created thiscomplicated thing.
I don't know if y'all haveexperienced this with your
perceived ethnicity versus youractual ethnicity.
I get a lot of questions becauseI have a Dutch last name.
So people and I have this Dutchtattoos, and people ask me if
I'm Dutch all the time, and Ihave to say no, well, and then

(30:15):
people ask me if I'm Jewish.
And if I say yes, they assumelike I'm Jewish, like I've been
raised Jewish from birth, orpeople may will not even ask me
if I'm Jewish, they'll skip overto, oh, when were you about
mitzved?
Like, what's your Hebrew name?
And I'm just like, well.
So it's a funny gray area I findmyself in.

SPEAKER_05 (30:35):
I'm sure I never had any knowledge of, and I've
always known I was adopted, so Ijust got to make up all kinds of
fun things.
People would say, even myadoptive parents to look at the
three of us, we look like aBenetton ad.
We were just not, we didn't lookanything alike.
People would always say, whenthey thought I was my parents'

(30:55):
child, my by, you know, that Iwas their biological child.
They were like, What is yourfamily?
What is this makeup?
You know?
And uh it was interesting.
We always tried to explain mom'skind of Italian, dad's kind of
Native American, but I'm notrelated to them at all.
We had an interesting look infamily photos.

SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
Well, funny is I I mean, growing up, my people
would always just be like, Oh mygod, you look so much like your
mom, you look so much like yourmom.
And I do, but then now that Iknow who my real dad is, he
called me the clone.
Oh.
Because we have like literallythe exact same face.
It's creepy.
And it's just like, oh yeah,everybody thought I looked like

(31:35):
my mom because you didn't seethis whole other person who I
look like, and I look nothinglike my real dad.

SPEAKER_05 (31:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (31:44):
So it's yeah, it I and I like and I don't know if
you feel this way, I amfascinated by genetics and
sibling resemblance.
And I mean, with my kid, but belike, oh, he has this and he has
that.
I wonder if that's from beingdonor-conceived and having that
absence your whole life.

SPEAKER_05 (32:03):
We talk about that a lot.
How you know, I because I'dalways known I was adopted, I
you know, just assumed I'm nevergonna find people in my you
know, adoptive family that I'mgonna look at anything like,
which is fine.
I didn't care, but it's alwaysintrigued me, like, I wonder who
I really do look like.
And now, wow, when I look at myfather's both sides of my

(32:26):
family, you can put me next tomy mother's daughter and see the
similarities, and you put menext to my father's son and see
similar.
It's so fun.
It only took me 47 years to findthem.

SPEAKER_04 (32:38):
So, Amber, I assume your half-sister is not your
therapist, but when you got thisdiscovery, did you reach out to
her and say, Well, it's true?

SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
I always joke about, you know, we'll talk for a while
and be like, all right, so youwant to build my insurance?
Or yeah, no, she's she'sfantastic.
I I feel so lucky that she isthe first sibling I found and
the person who was on thisjourney with me.
I spoke with my parents, Itexted her, like, you're right,
I'm your sister.
We made plans to FaceTime forthe first time.

(33:09):
I'd seen pictures of her, and itwas funny because she kept
sending pictures, and I waslike, I don't think we looked so
much the left.
She told me later, she was like,You idiot.
We're looking when we FaceTimedit blew mine because we our
voices are really similar, ourfacial expressions are really
similar.
We do look a lot alike, we havea lot in common.
It was an instant connection thefirst time we spoke.

(33:32):
We talked for almost two hours.
It was a total soul connection.
She's just a wonderful person,and I was so grateful to be
going through this experiencewith her.
She her mom had told her earlyon her social dad wasn't in the
picture.
He took off pretty uh in herparents' relationship.
She thought she had thisdead-beat dad, she never knew.

(33:54):
And then it turned out her momwas like, Oh, actually, he's not
really your dad.
So she was really split methinformation.
But she'd been an only child.
I guess she her mom had goneback to the clinic saying, Hey,
I'd love to use the same donor.
I want to have a sibling.
And they were like, Oh, well,now that you're a single woman,
we won't let you use the wow.

SPEAKER_05 (34:12):
It's so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
It was just her.
She was less interested infinding her biodad, more
interested in finding siblings.

SPEAKER_03 (34:18):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (34:19):
We really connected.
And then shortly after that, wewere staying in touch, and I was
keeping her updated on you knowhow things were going with my
parents, and we both had thisthose same first cousin matches.
And so I was like, let me justtry to like email them like one
more time.
Like, who knows?
Like, if people see the 23andMenotifications, I'm just gonna

(34:39):
message them one more time.
And they had very like commonnames, so it wasn't like I tried
Googling them and looking atFacebook, and it was there was
like millions of people at thesegames.
So then one day at work, I get aresponse from one of them.
He was pretty young at the time.
I think he was like 19, and hewas just like, Hey, this is

(35:01):
weird.
I don't know who you are.
This is crazy.
I didn't know I had cousins.
He immediately says, Let me addyou on Facebook and we can keep
talking there.
And I'm like, jackpot.
And all I knew about our donorwas he was a doctor.
So I asked, Do you have an unclewho's a doctor?
He was like, Yeah, I only haveone uncle and he's a doctor.
And I was like, Okay.

(35:22):
And at this point, he started toget all freaked out because he
was just like, he didn't know ifhe was talking out of turn or
not.
He was like, I think I need totalk to my mom about this.
And I was like, That's Orion,totally understand.
While we're connected onFacebook, I'm immediately like
searching for last name andfound the other first cousin,
his brother, and our dad.

(35:42):
As soon as I saw him, I waslike, Oh yeah, that's my dad.
Like it was just uncanny.
And it was really funny at thetime.
My profile picture on Facebookwas uh a headshot I had had
taken recently at work, and I'mstanding like this with like my
hands on my hips.
His profile picture was him onthe mountain, a triathlete.

(36:05):
I was standing the exact sameway, making the same facial
expression.
I was like, This is creepy.
As soon as I saw him, I waslike, Oh my god.
I was texting with myhalf-sister and we were just
like, We did it.
What?
Oh my god, like freaking out.
And he came back to us and hewas like, Look, like, he doesn't
want me to give you anyinformation.
He doesn't want to talk to you.

(36:26):
I probably sent too muchalready.
I'm sorry, I can't.
He locked me in and like deletedlike his 23.
I already know what I know atthis point.
My bio dad was still apracticing doctor.
I looked him up on LinkedIn.
I found his uh office.
We decided to send him a lettercertified mail.
The adopting donor-conceivedpreferred method of

(36:47):
communication.

SPEAKER_05 (36:48):
I get it.

SPEAKER_00 (36:49):
I remember Caitlin and I were drafting the letter,
being full about every word.
We didn't want to come off astoo weird or needy or anything.
We just wanted to be like, oh,we just want our medical
history, we want our familyhistory, we want to know who you
are.
And what's funny is, you know,now I'm very close with my bio
dad, but he told me later, hewas like, Oh, the letter seems

(37:11):
so cold.
Like it seemed like you didn'tactually care.
Like it didn't matter to you.
And I was like, we were tryingto make like we were trying to
play it cool.
Right.
We wanted to come off veryneutral.
And he was like, Oh, I took thatas like this actually didn't
matter to you.
I thought that mismatch was veryfunny.
Yeah, he got the letter.
What's funny is the postmastergeneral called me to tell me the

(37:33):
letter was lost.
I was like, the point ofspinning in the mail to know it
got delivered.
They were like, We're so sorrythis has never happened.
So I called Caitlin and I waslike, I I don't know if we'll
ever know if he got it.
He did get it.
The day he reached out to us wasthe same day I got the
confirmation of smooth.

SPEAKER_05 (37:53):
Wow.
Wow.
That he had finally gotten it.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
Um he wrote us an email and he was like, This is
who I am.
What do you want to know?
I found out later his wife hadreally changed his mind.
Normally you hear the opposite.
They were together in collegewhen he was donating.
She knew about this forever.
Wow.
Which played in our favor.
She was like, But you owe themthe medical history, you owe
them this.
Like, just like what, like, whatis it gonna hurt to write an

(38:22):
email?
You know, just reach out.
She really pushed him, and wewent back and forth on email a
little, and then he was like,What's FaceTime?
The three of us got on a call,and I was so nervous.
It felt like a fun house mirrorfirst date.
Do I look right?
Do I sound right?
Are they gonna like me?
What do I say?

(38:43):
And so it was it was kind of alittle awkward at first, and
then once we kind of got intothe conversation, we ended up
talking for like two and a halfhours.

SPEAKER_03 (38:49):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (38:50):
We clicked and had a lot in common, and he was so
freaked out, just like lookingat me and looking at Caitlin.
And he was just reallyoverwhelmed with the
resemblance.
And I think up until that point,like obviously he had donated
for a long time and he knewthese kids were out there, and
he even said it was a funnycocktail party story where he'd
be like, Oh, I have 100 kidssomewhere.

(39:12):
So he was like, I knew youexisted, but you were like
hypothetical in my mind.
So we had this greatconversation, and then after
that, Caitlin and I were like,What happened next?
Are we never gonna see himagain?
We got our information.
He reached out to us the nextday and was like, Hey, I really
love talking to you.
I'm actually gonna be in Chicagofor a conference.

(39:33):
Do you want to meet me?
So I booked a flight and twoweeks later met Caitlyn.
She picked me up, and 90 minuteslater, we were at dinner with
him and met him for the firsttime.
And it was so incredible.
We ended up staying out tilllike two in the morning, the
three of us.
And then we ended up spendinglike the whole weekend together.

SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
Since then, we've like grown and built our
relationship, and he's kind of,I would say, kind of now almost
like an astronaut.
Uncle.
Like when he's in town, we hangout.
He's met my kids.
You know, he's met my husbandseveral times.
I've met his family and hishouse a couple times now.

(40:13):
And he's been in my house.
And like it's yeah, he we wetalk and stay in touch.
I feel very, very, very luckybecause I know so many people do
not get that closure.
And then even if they do, theydon't get that relationship,
right?

SPEAKER_04 (40:28):
How old are your kids?

SPEAKER_00 (40:30):
My kids are one and four.

SPEAKER_04 (40:32):
Oh, they're not aware of the situation.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
No.
It's interesting because, youknow, my husband's parents are
divorced and he is a stepdad.
And so I think they're used tolike, you know, it's not just
like there's a mommy and adaddy.
Like they're kind of used tothis kind of spectrum of
experiences, and like mysister-in-law is queer and
married to a woman.
So I think like their perceptionof like what a family is is kind

(40:55):
of a little more broad.
They've never thought it wouldlike.
I tried to explain to my son,like, I grew up with Papa, but
Kurt is also my dad, and he'sjust like, okay, which I'm sure
will warrant like a largerconversation when he's a little
older.
For now, they're just like,whatever.

SPEAKER_05 (41:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (41:12):
Which is great.
They'll never feel like it'sstrange.
When did your other halfsiblings start popping up?

SPEAKER_00 (41:19):
Yeah, so at first it was just me and Caitlin, and
then it happened all at once.
I'm trying to remember who camefirst.
I think Jeremy and his brotherwere next, then Karen, then
Trevin and Brandon.
And then we have two who are notinterested in knowing us.
One popped up and immediatelydisappeared.

(41:40):
Kurt's estimate is that thereare 75 to 100 of us.

SPEAKER_04 (41:44):
Wow.
That's funny because he was verybusy in college.
We've had another guest with hishalf-sister, and they know
they're up to 73, 74 that theyknow about.
They think that might be halfbecause the donor was told
halfway through his you knowdonations that, you know, he
here's how many you've gotsuccessful, you know, and it was

(42:04):
like around 70.
And that was halfway through hisdonor time.

SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Yeah, they never told him he was he was at Albany
Medical College, and the firstweek of school, they went around
to all the dorms and they said,if you want to get in good with
the professors and you want tosupport the college, you will go
donate at the clinic.
And they gave him a form to fillout and they got a physical, and

(42:29):
then once you passed thephysical and the paperwork
stage, then you were in, and itwas 25 bucks a pop.
My biodad is very tall, veryfit, blonde hair, blue eyes.
And he's like, Oh, I thought Iwas I was popular because there
were a lot of Jewish families inthe Albany area.
Nope, my dude, you were 6'3 withblonde hair, blue eyes.
That's why you're according tomy parents, they didn't pick.

(42:51):
It wasn't like now where you gothrough a catalog.
My dad is pretty tall with curlyblonde hair and light eyes.
I think they were just like,Okay, like these guys, when I
first found Kurt, my adoptedsister was like, Oh, he looks
like he could be dad's cousin.
They look similar enough.
They clearly did a good job oftrying to make it match.
But yeah, he he said he was themost popular donor in the

(43:14):
program, and he donated probablyover 500 times over three years.

SPEAKER_04 (43:19):
Did he get a good with the professors after that?

SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
They went on to be a doctor, so he made it through
masks.

SPEAKER_04 (43:27):
Well, how many of your half-siblings have you
formed a relationship with?

SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
Caitlin and I are super close.
We talk all the time.
We've had that relationshipforged through not only my, you
know, her supporting me throughmy discovery, but then we also
like found our biological dadtogether.
As other siblings came in, wewere kind of the ones like
handing off the information.
So we became very close.

(43:51):
And then, you know, we likebefore we had kids, we would go
on vacations together and stuffand kind of try to make up for
lost time.
And you know, she's come out tovisit me, and our kids have met.
I think she and I will always beclose by virtue of like having
just a ton in common, but alsohaving these experiences that we
went through together.
And then I've met Karen andJosh, Jeremy's brother.

(44:17):
I think, yeah, I think that'sit.
And it's kind of too likegeographically spread apart.

SPEAKER_02 (44:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:25):
But I would like to have everyone meet up sometime.
I do think that would be fun.
But we have a group chat that weall oh and Tom, sorry, I forgot
about Tom.
So Tom Tom grew up down thestreet from me.

SPEAKER_05 (44:38):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (44:40):
Best friends with my cousin.

SPEAKER_05 (44:41):
Oh wow, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (44:43):
There was a funny misunderstanding.
He also found out through 23 Me,and that's been interesting.
Half of our sibling group knew,and the other half found out.
He matched with me and Caitlin.
Caitlin gave him the rundown,and then he joined our group,
and like he and I he added me onFacebook.
My cousin sees that we'reconnected on Facebook, and my
cousin's like, What's going onhere?

(45:04):
Like, how do you guys know eachother?
And he was getting kind ofdefensive about it.
He was like, How do you know mycousin?
That's your cousin, and oh,that's my half-sister.
My cousin didn't know about mystatus either and was like,
What?
And like, actually, we're notrelated.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 (45:23):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (45:25):
Yeah, his mind was blown.
That's part of why I feelstrongly about advocacy and
regulations.
I'm very lucky I didn't date mybrother, but there's a world
where we're the same age, grewup in the same place with the
same people.

SPEAKER_03 (45:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
And it's really creepy to think about.
All of my half-siblings wereconceived in Albany, born around
the same area, some left.
But my half-sister and I havetons of friends in common, grew
up 20 miles from each other.
I've met Tom because he's local.
But I've met for now.
For a while it was easy becauseI lived in New York City and a
lot of people would like to comethrough New York City.

(46:01):
I would get to meet them.
We've now created a welcomepacket.
Did Jeremy tell you about thewelcome packet?

SPEAKER_05 (46:06):
A little bit of, but you can tell us more.

SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
I'm the creator of the welcome packet because I'm a
type ANDA job.
We realized it was notsustainable.
We've slowed down, but it willbe more eventually.
People have a lot of questions.
We put everything we know aboutKurt, his family, and then about
all of us.
We each have like a page withlike a photo and like an intro.
All the information is now in aPowerPoint.

(46:31):
When you pop up on 23Me orAncestry, you get invited to the
group chat and you get thePowerPoint.
And whatever you choose to dofrom there is your choice.
At least we can say here's allthe information, and then we
don't have to retell the wholething.

SPEAKER_04 (46:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
Spend the emotional labor of explaining everything.

SPEAKER_05 (46:50):
Yeah.
Well, has Kurt sort of embracedthat?
This idea that, you know, thatA, you all are welcoming to new
half-siblings, and uh he couldbecome involved with many of
them.

SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
He's only met me and Caitlin, then met Trevin,
because Trevin lives inCalifornia and robot was like, I
will come to Sacramento, like Iwant to be you.
But we have this kind of weirddynamic.
He wants me to bet people forhim a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 (47:21):
Don't send me weirdos.

SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
He'll be like, Oh, I'll go to him and be like, This
person emailed you.
You can email them back.
Do you want to meet with them?
Then he'll be like, I'm sorry,I'm bad at email.
What's the deal with thisperson?
I don't love being thego-between.
Usually I'll give people hisemail, but then he's like, you
know, retired and like notchecking his email all the time.
So then I have to be like, hey,can I give this person your

(47:44):
number?
He feels strongly that we have arelationship, and that's like
he's never said this, but I feellike he's like, that's all the
capacity I have.
Like, you know, I have one, andlike so that feels kind of
weird.
Yeah.
It's it's it's just a it'sthere's no like playbook of
like, how do you manage theserelationships?
How do you choose who to investyour like finite time and energy

(48:06):
with?
And it's just gonna expand fromhere.
He was very tickled by thewelcome packet.

SPEAKER_05 (48:11):
It has to be daunting because at the time he
was making these donations,there was never the thought that
anybody could surface, much lesshundreds.
I can't imagine what goesthrough your mind when you
figure that out.
Like, oh wow, this could beexponential.
So that's gotta be daunting.

SPEAKER_00 (48:29):
Yeah, I had dinner with him recently.
He was in town for his 35thclass reunion, which is funny
because he was like, I was like,Oh, like what your reunion is
that?
He's like, Well, how old areyou?
Well, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 (48:42):
There you go.

SPEAKER_00 (48:42):
And he was, you know, I had dinner with him and
his wife, and he was like, youknow, all my friends said I did
it right.
I have great adult kids I get tohang out with, but I didn't have
to raise them.
And so he was like, I feel likeI cracked the code benefits and
none of the risk ofresponsibility.
I was like, Yeah, great, cool.

SPEAKER_04 (49:01):
Thanks for my existence.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (49:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (49:03):
What have things been like with your immediate
family, your mom and dad, andyour sister?

SPEAKER_00 (49:09):
We're at a good point with it.
Initially, my mom was like,Don't tell anyone, you have to
keep this secret.
And I was like, that's kind ofbullshit.
This is my life, my story.
This is happening to me.
These were your choices, right?
But it's happening to me.
Right.
So, of course, I went and made adocumentary and a podcast about

(49:32):
and I mean, my thing is I'vejust always been somebody that
this is the way I processthings.
Is I I it started with, youknow, after this happened and
while looking for my biodad,that I was trying to learn more
about the industry, joiningsupport groups, and trying to
understand how this happened.
The more I found out, the more Ipulled on the thread, I was
like, How is this legal?
Learning more about people.

(49:53):
I'm very lucky.
I had a straightforwardsituation.
I had my discovery, I found mydonor, he was cool.
He doesn't have any kind ofcrazy illnesses or, you know,
really scary medical history.
But for most people, that's notthe case.
I've met people with severecomorbidities to a woman who
legit has something where thenon-medical term is exploding

(50:13):
heart disease that she inheritedfrom her donor.
She's on a mission to find herhalf siblings because if they
don't know about this condition,they can die.
So I'm just like, how did we getthe more I found out, the more I
was infuriated right after mydiscovery?
I connected with a friend fromcollege working at Freight Media
and I told her the whole story.

(50:34):
And she was like, This has to bea podcast.
And I was like, I don't know.
But the more I thought about it,the more I was like, you know,
people don't know about this.
I didn't know until it happenedin me.
Maybe if I share my story,people will reconsider their
fertility options and reconsidertelling their kids if they
haven't.
So we made this podcast in 2018.

(50:58):
And Slate was like, We're notinterested in distributing this.
We don't think it's the righttime.
We don't think people want tohear about this.
They were very dismissive.
So it sat on a show.
Then TJ, the producer, met thiswoman, Aubrey, who's a
documentary filmmaker.
And Aubrey was like, Yeah,23andMe just gave me a grant to
make a documentary about DNA andancestry, but I don't have a

(51:22):
subject.
And TJ was like, Well, I havethis podcast that nobody wants,
uh, but I have a subject.
She connected me with Aubrey,and we made the documentary.
We had to do it in a super tighttime frame for Tribeca Film
Festival.
We were flying all over thecountry.
Fortunately, Kurt was willing toparticipate, and I still had

(51:44):
that audio from that first phonecall with my parents, and they
wanted to use the audio in thedocumentary, and so I had to go
to my parents, and technicallyNew York's a one-party consent
state, but I don't want to dothat like without you knowing
and without your consent.
And they were very like, my momwas very concerned about it, and
I was like, Look, you're notbeing named, you know.

(52:05):
And they agreed, they agreed tosign off on it.
They saw the documentary andthey were like, you know, we're
really proud of you.
This is incredible.
I think that was healing in thesense that they were like, We
understand why you're doingthis.
Before they saw it, my mom wasafraid of what I would say or
how she would come off.
And then after we made thedocumentary, we shot it to be a

(52:26):
full series or a full lengththat we couldn't find a home for
it.
And then TJ landed at Sony, andthey were like, Oh, like, are
you working on anything?
And she was like, Well, I havethis podcast.
I'm like, Nope, who wants?
So we made it into adocumentary, but we still have
the podcast.
And they were like, Ah, that'sinteresting, but I don't know if
it's the right time.
Cut to 2020, COVID happens, andSony's like, hey, we can't send

(52:49):
journalists anywhere.
We can't report on stories.
Does anyone have anything?
TJ's like, I still have this.
They gave her some budget.
We ended up re-recording a bunchof it, updating it, really
changing, you know, it to not beso much about my story, but to
really be about my industry orbe about the fertility industry
with my story as a through line.
It went viral.

(53:10):
We were the number one sciencepodcast defeating this American
Life Radio Lab and downloads.
It was crazy.
Interview requests were comingin.
And at one point, I was anotification on people's Apple
Watch.
You had an Apple Watch andsubscribed to Apple News.

SPEAKER_03 (53:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (53:24):
You got a notification with my faith.
This woman had over a hundredhouses, like my phone was
blowing up.
Everyone was like, Oh my god,you were on my Apple Watch.
This was all happening duringCOVID, so it felt very surreal.
You know, with the documentary,the documentary with a kind of
smaller splash, but it was likea red carpet, and there was a
party, and there was a thing.
Whereas, like, you know, we putthis out into the world, and
then I sat in my office.

SPEAKER_05 (53:47):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (53:48):
It's been really cool.
I'm still in a in a class actionlawsuit against the FDA, and we
can talk more about that.
But to also see one, the ASRMslowly making changes, and two,
you know, I people reach out tome all the time and say, you
know, I used your documentary tocome out to my family as donor

(54:11):
conceived.
I used your documentary toexplain to my parents why I'm so
hurt by them not being honestwith me.
Or, you know, I see, like yousaid, I see myself in in this
podcast.
I'm hearing my storyrepresented.
And so I'm just, you know, tome, it both projects were a
labor of love.

(54:31):
I didn't make a single set offof it.
I think it's important to haveour stories out there.
I know people who, because of mystory, have made different
choices about their fertilityjourney.
The more people hear ourstories, more people might
realize just because we did thisfor decades, maybe this isn't
the best way for the humanbeings we are creating.

SPEAKER_05 (54:51):
Right.
I think the argument should bemore salient now because you
know, people are just findingthings so so much more easily
than 20 years ago.
It feels more unfair to thechildren who are not being told
the truth.

SPEAKER_00 (55:07):
Yeah.
To circle back on your questionabout my family, I made the
documentary when I was pregnantwith my oldest son and named him
after my dad.
It was something I wanted to do,but it was also symbolic.
I told him repeatedly, nothingis changing, nothing is
changing.
I think that was a huge steptowards his healing.
This was a surprise for him,too.

(55:28):
This was a healing journey forhim.
I feel like I had more resourcesto deal with that than he did.
My mom was still resentful.
And then we had two summers agothis huge blowout fight because
we were at a wedding.
I was talking to the father ofthe bride, saying, Oh, your
daughter's such a wonderfulyoung woman.
Do you have parenting advice?

(55:50):
He said, We always treated ourkids like people and were always
honest with them.
No matter what, even when it washard, we were always honest with
them.
And my mom standing next to megoes, Absolutely, 100%.
We did the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 (56:03):
Oh, mom.

SPEAKER_00 (56:06):
I turned her and I said, That's not true.

SPEAKER_05 (56:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (56:10):
And she said, It is true.
You never asked.
I never lied.
You never asked.

SPEAKER_05 (56:16):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
Got up and left.
I was like, I can't.
I left.
And she found me and she's like,What's wrong?
I was like, it's superinvalidating for you to say
never lied to me.
She lost it.
She was like, If I'm a monster,all these people are monsters.
I just did what the doctor toldme to.
You can't be mad at forever.

(56:38):
I was like, I'm not mad, but Ijust acknowledge my lived
experience that I was lied to.
And I can't have thisconversation with you.
I'm sorry.
Like you're being too emotional.
I'm gonna say something notnice.
So I left.
She texted me a couple dayslater.
It was like, you know what?
You were right.
I'm really sorry.
And it was this like long,thoughtful apology, which I was

(57:00):
not expecting.
That is not her.
She was like, You were right.
I lied to you.
I lied for my own benefit, andthat hurt you.
I'm sorry.
Well, it was just like a switchflip.
This was two years ago.
So this was five years into shefinally got it.
That I wasn't just trying to bedifficult, I wasn't just trying

(57:20):
to make things hard for her.
This had actually been hard forme.

SPEAKER_03 (57:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (57:24):
It was all on the basis of this one lie.
That is something I stillstruggle with.
What's real and what's not.
If the biggest thing in yourlife is a lie, what else is a
lie?

SPEAKER_05 (57:36):
Nothing changed about the way that you feel
about the man who raised you.
You know what I'm saying?
And probably it never would haveif you've been told when you
were three that's still yourdad.
He's still the person that tookcare of you and loved you.
I wish parents could see thatthose relationships aren't going
to change.

SPEAKER_00 (57:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (57:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:56):
You see this a lot.
Plenty of adoptive parents raisetheir kid, and the kid
understands this person is not arelative.
And yet it's funny to me when II see these recipient parents
online, we're like, well, blooddoesn't matter.
It's just love that matters.
Great.
So tell your kids.

SPEAKER_03 (58:13):
Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (58:15):
Then be honest.
Right.
I think things have shifted forthe good.
You know, most doctors andclinics are telling people, you
know, tell your kids so earlythat it's not even a memory.
Like, make this part of theirunderstanding of who they are.
But you still then see, like,you know, there was a clinic
just down the street from myhouse when I lived in New York
City that was touting they hadnew facial recognition software

(58:36):
that would best match you to adonor.

SPEAKER_03 (58:39):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
And it's like, well, that's kind of weird.
We get new folks every week inthe Spark group who are finding
out through 23Me.
So there's still people outthere clinging to these lies.
There's so many stories outthere now, like mine and others,
where people are saying, tellthe truth.
Just give your kids the courtesyof their real identity.

SPEAKER_04 (59:02):
Well, and it's it seems like the industry is
giving people tools to lie, likereasons to lie.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (59:08):
Now we're suing the FDA for accountability to create
guardrails around the fertilityindustry.
These guardrails exist in everyother country except for the
United States.
In Japan, there's a limit on thenumber of families one donor can
contribute to.
In Canada and the UK, it'sillegal to pay someone for a

(59:30):
sperm and egg donation.
You know, there's kind of likesmart guardrails that already
exist in other countries.
And then there's other countrieswho have just fully outlawed
anonymous donation.
So, you know, these thingsalready exist, they're already
in practice, but the ASRM, youknow, donor conception is their
cash cow.
The fertility industry is afraidto do anything to jeopardize

(59:54):
that flow of money.

SPEAKER_05 (59:56):
Yep.
What a horrible way to prey onpeople.
Who feel desperate.
Exactly.
It's just awful.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:04):
Yeah, and I get it.
I have friends who haveexperienced infertility or are
queer couples that want to havechildren.
I feel strongly that anyoneshould be able to have a family
in the way they want to.
But our thing is, can we putsome guardrails in place to
protect these kids and connectthem to their biological family?
And that's always been, youknow, the the thing I I'll never

(01:00:24):
understand about donorconception is people are are are
using a donor because they stillwant the child to be partly
theirs.
But then they could say, Well,blood doesn't matter.
Their genetic relatives don'tmatter.
None of the stuff.
And I was like, Well, but youstill wanted it to be yours.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:42):
Not the other stuff.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:44):
Make it make sense.
I had a friend turn her wife oninto a baby really badly, and
they went through a veryexpensive process, like IVF
process and retrievals.
And then they went with ananonymous donor.
And I was like, Well, did youhave a choice?
And they were like, Yeah, but itwas five thousand dollars more
to have a known donor.
And I was like, You spent$150,000 on this baby, and you

(01:01:08):
want to spend the extra$5,000 toknow who their father is.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:16):
Like, yeah, no, I'm with you.
It doesn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:19):
But the industry is setting people up for this,
right?
These kids are gonna havequestions, and hopefully
everything's fine.
Hopefully their kids are coolwith it, hopefully their medical
industry is fine.
But it's like I just can'timagine investing so much and
having a child and then beinglike, oh, but we don't need to
know that, right?
They don't need to know whatyou're doing.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:36):
But with the risk that in 10 years the child needs
to know about you know thesehealth concerns, these mental
health concerns.
It's just unfair to the child.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:48):
Amber, it's wonderful that you are fighting
for change.
That's very cool.
As you've mentioned, you've gota happy ending kind of fairy
tale story, and not everybodyhas that.
But it takes a lot of courage toshare your journey.
So we really appreciate youdoing that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:04):
Thank you.
I mean, I I think a lot of thestuff that is happening on the
donor-conceived advocacy side,we're modeling after the
adoption advocacy side, right?
Because there's still there'sstill a lot to be done there,
but clear wins and access tocorrect birth records and
records and more restrictionsaround how children are moved.
We've looked to those models tomirror what we've done.

(01:02:25):
Some states have passedlegislation around accurate
records for donor-conceivedpeople, around open open ID
donations.
So we're making progress.
I mean, we we've gotten a couplestate to make it illegal for a
doctor to use their own spermwithout telling a patient.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:39):
At least there's baby steps, but still it's silly
we need to bring that up, butit's real.
Yeah.
It's still a real fear.
Thank you so much for sharingyour journey with us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:51):
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:53):
Yeah, we'll stay in touch.
Big thanks to Jeremy for sharinghis donor-conceived story and
for bringing a bit of paranormalflair to the Family Twist
universe.
I think that will go nicely withour other podcast horror heels.
And thank you again to Amber,whose advocacy continues to
shine a light on the need forhonesty and accountability in
donor conception practices.

(01:03:14):
This episode is a reminder thatwhen secrets get buried, they
have a way of resurfacing,sometimes in your inbox,
sometimes at a podcast meetup,and sometimes in a file labeled
Lost Interview.
I'm Corey, and on behalf of MoonTemple, thanks for listening to
Family Twist.
And remember, Family Secrets arethe ultimate plot twist.

(01:03:35):
The Family Twist podcast ispresented by Tablock Airmarking
Communications and produced byHow the How is the CatH L L
Capital?