Stranger Things (Season 5 Volume 2) - Fandom Hybrid Podcast #391 - Fandom Hybrid Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:24):
What's up hybrids? Welcome back to another episode
of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I am here
with Anthony and Michelle and weare discussing Stranger Things
Season 5 Volume 2. We are almost at the end y'all.
We almost made the. Final countdown.

(00:46):
And I think we have had we have had several conversations.
I told Anthony Michelle today I need to just carry my mics
around with with us when we hangout because we literally sat at
Outback today having lunch and discuss Stranger things for
almost an hour. But we were like, wait, we got
to save it for the podcast. But I think we'll be good,

(01:08):
right? Yes, we'll be.
Good. Yeah, like, like they told me
you could talk about this all day.
All day, baby, all day, all day.We'll, we'll see.
Because between the things that actually happened, between the
things we're seeing online, the discourse, between the different
theories, I just, there's, there's a lot going on.
There's a lot. So let's get into volume to 3

(01:32):
episodes, episodes 5-6 and seven.
Where do we want to start 'causeI'm like, I don't even know.
There's, I think we should just pick a character and talk about
what happened to that character.Because of course, again, if
you're listening to this, we're assuming that you're caught up.
So we don't need to do like fullrecaps.
We just really need to talk about what's going on with these

(01:53):
characters. Yeah, 'cause if if you're
listening to this, you have seenit already.
You have to. You have to.
You you have seen the. If not.
Spoilers. Yeah, definitely spoilers and we
will be very cognizant of not saying anything.
Me and Anthony will say nothing about the play and its relations

(02:17):
to what is happening because Hanukkah don't know and some of
you don't know so will not. I think it's like less than 1%
of the the audience watching hasseen the play.
Right. But then there's some I haven't
seen the play, but by product, Ihave seen the play through many
deep dives on YouTube's of people talking about the play.

(02:41):
And I can tell you from the curtain opens what happened to
the curtain closes. But I hadn't been there.
But I'm going to keep that to myself.
The only part I know about is when Jamie Campbell showed up on
stage. And I had not that surprised a
whole lot of people. They were excited about that.
OK, so let's go with the main person.
Let's go with Will. Let's just jump in.

(03:03):
Let's talk about Mr. William because 2-3 big things happen in
this Volume 3. Just say this for Will this
season, I feel like his character is really, really
getting to do some deep stuff. And I'm glad because he's been

(03:27):
on the like he's been the main, the main focus of the show for
so long, but he's also been a sideline character for so long.
Like I think we talked about this in the last volume.
He's always been the victim and not really able to kind of be
out there really doing things. So to see him this season, kind

(03:48):
of own who he is and come into that confidence, coming to that
strength to see his friends really have some confidence in
him, to see his mother have someconfidence in him and for him to
do the shit that he did in his volume.
Applause for Mr. William Byers. I totally agree.

(04:10):
However, before we get deep in what he did, however, coming off
of volume one, I was so hyped, like, OK, Will is like he gonna
be that no limit soldier, like he is ready, like nothing's
gonna bother him. And then we we did still have a
little bit of old Will, but we still look look crying and

(04:33):
stuff. And I'm like, Nah, Will, you
don't need to cry. You don't need to.
I mean, I'm just saying it was funny because I'm a crier.
I I trust me, it's growing pain.But I I was like, no, you don't
cry, boy. You just stand up.
You did great. Keep going.
And my favorite, my favorite is when he got back into the hive

(04:56):
mind and fully like, I mean, he did it though.
Yeah. He really did it with Vegna.
Now Vegna pushed him out his brain quickly, but it was a
struggle for Will. But Will did it.
I'm just was. So that was amazing and I want
to see a little bit more of thatin Volume 3.
And. You know what?

(05:17):
And this my comment is not aboutWill specifically is tangential
to Will is Joyce because Joyce went from one extreme to the
other where she went from, you know, protect.
We'll we'll guys stay with me. Bye bye to like, OK, we'll kill
Vechner. And it was like, wait for it was

(05:39):
sort of jarring for her to go sofar to the extreme for me.
I'm not saying it was a big problem, but it was just one of
those things where she had been so protective of him, so
sheltering of him that when and she realized maybe she needed to

(05:59):
let go, she she didn't just let go.
She just kind of pushed him to this thing.
And I don't know if it's becausewe watch a lot of this stuff or
I watch a lot of this stuff. You know, he's not ready.
Like he just figured out what hecan do and the first thing you
want to do is invade vacant his mind and kill him.

(06:20):
Victoria has been doing this thing for 50 years.
So. That that means she like, even
though it was jarring for you, that is exactly right because
she we went from that mom where you like, oh shit, my kids
constantly getting beat up, likeI got to protect them to oh,
like they can do some things. I got plans.

(06:40):
Yes, this is what you you can dothis.
You can do this. I'm right by your side.
I believe in you. You got this.
She turned into like a soccer mom.
Real. Quick.
I won't even say it's real quick.
I'm kind of in between both of you guys.
Like, I'm glad that she's finally on board and that she's
giving that she's telling Will that she has confidence in him.

(07:01):
I do feel like it was also kind of a whiplash moment.
But I also think she's paying a lot of attention to Hopper and
the way he is with Elle. And I think she sees a lot of
what she's doing with Will and, and, and what Hopper is doing
with Elle. And it's like, as parents, we
can treat our children one way and not see the way that we're

(07:25):
treating them or how what we're doing to them might be
detrimental to them. But when we see other people do
it to their children, we see other people have that same
behavior. And we're cognizant enough to
recognize and be like, oh, wait,I do that, too.
I think at this point, she probably really was looking at
the situation like, OK, Will just showed us that he has the

(07:49):
ability, that he has the power, that he has the heart to do.
And this is what Will was telling her in Volume 1.
And I think at this point, she realizes, OK, you know what?
If we're going to beat him, we're going to need everything
that everything that we can throw at him.
And we I I'm sorry, as a parent,you can't expect the other man's

(08:11):
child to do all the heavy lifting when you see that your
child is capable of doing something right.
And then you get hyped, like Hanukkah said, in a better way.
But you get hyped like, you know, when you have what all of
us, I think the ones who have kids and you see your kid do an
actual talent. And at first you'd be like,
yeah, I don't really know. Like, OK, not really sure how to

(08:33):
it's going to go. And then you see like, well,
damn, they really good. OK, Like I'm all for it.
And that's how and Pete could becompletely honest.
What ends up happening if this was if this continues on and he
has to continue using his powers, he's going to get tired
of it. And she's going to be like, hey,
use your powers to mow the yard.Hey, use your powers to pay the

(08:56):
bills. And he was like, OK, because we
get so hyped up and then so consumed that we're not thinking
like she is consumed. Like everyone is hyped about him
being a sorcerer. I saw it.
He can do it. And she not thinking like that
boy just learned how to do it. Like you took the training
wheels off and now nearly you'relike doing 30 mile cross

(09:20):
country. Oh, you can do this.
Please go kill him now and end this.
I think that's really where her focus was.
She was like, oh, she's hyped. Yeah, it should be done with it.
There's no doubts that your kid could do it now.
But realistically, in real life,we get so hyped about our kids
doing something, we kind of missthe fact that he he couldn't do

(09:42):
it. I I get that.
I'm just saying maybe a little bit of thought, you know, if
not, it's not, it's not that shetook the training wheels off.
She just handed him the bike with no training wheels and said
go. Right.
And and I understand the hype, Iget it, but I'm just saying my
issue a little. More cautious.

(10:04):
You you send her, you send him. You basically are telling him to
go fight someone using a power that.
Level 3. Level three person.
Literally just picked it up like.
You didn't even train like a training montage.
Nothing. He's like, OK, he's going to go
in. He's going to infiltrate.

(10:25):
Victor's mind is. Mind you, Victor has killed
dozens of people. Yeah, and I get it.
Yeah. You send him out he's and you
literally think he created the upside down.
This guy has he's like a level 10 and you you're sending a
newbie after. Right.

(10:46):
Yeah, but I I just need it for her to just, I understand the
enthusiasm. I just maybe needed for her to
to kind of, OK, take a pause. Yeah, you know.
And I think she would have took a pause if she didn't see it.
Like, if they told her he did it, she'd be like, yeah, OK, we
still have to be cautious. You know what I'm saying?

(11:07):
We can try this. But she saw it, and she just got
thrown in the whirlwind. It's like, you telling me I love
you, baby. Don't take a fancy.
If you ever watch this, listen to her.
Like, OK, she can sing. And I'd be like, yeah, can she
really sing? And then you're like, sing this.
And I'm like, wow, she can sing.And then we get her on stage
with Whitney Houston or something and we like, oh fuck

(11:30):
no, I can't even sing. But then she also has.
I mean, she song in the house, so let's put her in concert
with, you know, the back of Whitney Houston and we like Oh
my God, but. She also.
Like Harry? Oh my God, we did.
We did our child wrong. I got you, but she also just

(11:51):
watched this thing tank the entire military unit, right?
The entire military unit left noone standing.
Yeah, but it's different. It's not in person.
That's another thing too. He doesn't have to fight him in
person. So she's like the mind thing.
Joyce not getting it. I don't think.

(12:11):
She should be put in a permanentcoma.
I don't think she. Should be like that.
I don't think she really. I don't want to say it.
It feels like she doesn't reallyunderstand the true threat that
Beckman poses. Initially and yeah and she and
she doesn't get that doesn't. But the other thing is, you
know, going back to what both ofy'all were saying, if you think

(12:35):
about it, yeah, she did jump thegun.
Because like you were saying about training, even Elle has to
train. Even L, who we know has powers
and whose powers she's not siphoning off of anybody else.
She's not borrowing, she's not tapping in.
These are her own powers and shestill has to train.

(12:55):
So yes, Will, Will needs to train.
And I again, I think she just got a little bit Brazil is she
was like, oh, you can do this. Let's just kill this bastard and
be done with it. But again, something that we
established in Volume 1, Joyce does not always have the best
plans. And I think somebody needed to
remind her of that. Like, we might be moving a

(13:18):
little too fast. I appreciate the enthusiasm.
I appreciate her giving Will theconfidence because after that, I
mean, yes, he killed the demo Gorgons, but the kids are all
gone. Beckman still has the kids.
And so you can kind of understand how he would feel
about that. Like he's like, oh, I was able
to do this all all along and I should have done it earlier and

(13:41):
then the kids wouldn't be here. Well, baby, you just not
figuring this out. This is not like all the stuff
that they're dealing with in this volume, all of the science
stuff, finding out the true whatwhat the Upside Down really is,
all of this stuff, even Dustin being wrong about what he
thought it was. It's not that you're wrong.

(14:04):
You made a very good estimated guest based on the information
you have, you know, And then when you have more information,
you're like, oh, wait, I was wrong.
I was totally wrong. It wasn't that.
But the fact that y'all have been doing this for four years
with no battle plan, with no prior knowledge, with, I mean,

(14:27):
y'all literally just got snatched up into this.
Yeah, that's great. I need we need to not be so hard
on himself, right, because he training on the job and that's
not easy and. That's that's what I would say
to that's not like Dustin. Don't beat yourself up, bro.
You, you're like 13 years. You were thirteen years old.
Mean we 16. Dustin when you can't, when they

(14:49):
were trying to figure out Upsidedown, yes, OK, you were wrong.
But dude. You right you hadn't even gone
to like college and you know wrote papers you're doing this
with high school level science right and she prefers.
To. Scott.
So it's OK. It's OK.
Picture. Yeah, complete round.
Don't mute yourself up. Already, he don't like being

(15:10):
wrong. So that's the problem.
His problem. Yeah.
Yeah. And we'll get to Dustin and his
problems later on. OK.
So back to Will. Yeah, back to Will.
But I'm sorry. That was OK.
We have a little bit of cursing here.
It was badass. That was It was badass.
It was the greatest thing. Apologize every time you curse,
right? That's why someone started now.

(15:30):
OK, that's going to happen. But it was badass that that was
simply just, you know, simply. I mean, you paid the price for
it, you know? But you have learned a lot.
Yeah, you did. You were able to confirm to
Lucas that Max is around and that Holly is there and Holly

(15:51):
and Max are together. You got Max out of there.
However, you turned around, and then you were the spy and told
where Max was. But that's OK.
Wouldn't you? If somebody was digging their
claws in your head, I'd be single, right?
I would. I mean, me too.
At least he made it to, you know, blood come out of his ears
and eyes. I got one single blood and I'm
like, you got the information. I'm good, right?

(16:12):
Right. He.
Said he fought. He really, he fought.
He did, but the thing that got him, which we find out later on
because we don't actually see it, but we find out later on, is
again, Vechner uses secrets. He uses people's worst fears to
get at them and to manipulate them.
And this is what he does to Willand Will has in this episode

(16:36):
finally, his being coming out scene.
And I say being because it wasn't just, you know, he
started out. He was just going to tell Joyce
and then here comes Mike in the room and he's like, you probably
need to hear this to a matter offact.
Get everybody, everybody, everyone.
Like, you know what, if I'm a story time day at all, I'm going

(16:57):
to go ahead and pull it all the way off.
So literally you have everybody.And I think it's been a while
since we've seen everybody together.
All of the adults, all of the young adults, all of the chill,
everybody is there, even Max at this point.
And he has his moment. And I'm, I'm admit, the first

(17:19):
time I watched it, I was like, this has got to be the longest
coming out speech I've ever seen.
It was people measure the time the second time.
And I think the first time I watched these episodes, like I
was right there on the precipiceof being emotional.
But I think I was so scared of what was going to happen in
these episodes. I was trying not to, you know,

(17:43):
to, to freak out or to cry or whatever.
I was just like, I'm waiting forthe shoe to drop.
I'm waiting for the shoe to drop.
So I don't think I really absorbed it the second time I
watched it. However, I'm sitting here
bawling like a baby and just noticing the little stuff.
As soon as he started talking and he started saying little
things. And the camera pans to Jonathan,
Jonathan already knows what he'sabout to do.

(18:05):
And you see that small smile on Jonathan's face, like, yes, he's
about to do it. He's proud.
Then you see Robin kind of over there just kind of nodding,
encouraging him. And Will is telling, you know,
his friends about all this stuff.
He's like, look, he was like, Vecna uses people's secrets

(18:26):
against them. He was like, and I have a big
secret to tell them to tell you guys.
And I got to say, Noah Schnapp nailed it in this scene.
And I don't know if it was also like just his personal feelings
about his sexuality because he did come out as gay a few years
ago, I think season 3 or 4. So I don't know if he was

(18:49):
pulling his own experience into that.
But when I say just the facial expressions, the body language,
the the ring of the hands, just everything, he was phenomenal.
And I'm so glad we're getting tosee him actually do like some
some heavy, heavy acting in thisseason.
Yeah, because he, when I say theemotional weight, the whole

(19:13):
Demogorgon scene in the first one, the scene with him trying
to kill Dechner in this one, this scene right here, he is
bringing it. And I, when I say I watch that
scene and it was just so emotional and listening to him
talk to his friends about, oh, yeah, we like this and we like

(19:33):
that and we like that. And I was like, you know what?
This is really cute because he'srude.
He's giving them reminders like,hey, we like all of these
things, except I'm not different, right?
Right. And he, he was nervous.
So you got any more? Because I got a few things on
this. Before, before you go, I just

(19:55):
want to my, my thing, I just want to say that the way, the
way Weckner is, but he said it during his speech.
He said I, I guess I want to saythat I don't think I think
there's a distinction to be madethat it wasn't that he had a a

(20:15):
fear of being gay. He had the fear of being of his
friends and family. Oh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, definitely.
I'm just saying abandoning him and being alone.
And then he separate himself toofrom them because of how they
they, their worry and their fear.
So and I think that's that's a distinction that we didn't make

(20:37):
sure our audience. You know what?
To be fair, though, I think it is fair to say that he might
have even been, I'm afraid of being gay.
I mean, he says as much in there.
He was like, you know, I, I didn't want to be different.
He was like, I, I didn't fit, you know, want to tell you all.
I was different 'cause I didn't want to be different.

(20:57):
We have to think about it. This is not.
Typically. Specifically, he says Victor
showed him that he would be alone.
Yes. And that's what he was afraid
of. But what he was talking about
before, he did say that he was also afraid of being different.
He didn't want to be different. And we have to think about it.

(21:18):
This is 198087. This is right in the height of
the AIDS epidemic. This is when there was a lot of
backlash against gays, especially for someone his age.
So yeah, he probably did also have that fear as well.
But what? Yeah, you're right.
What Dechner showed him was thathis friends would abandoned him,

(21:40):
his family would abandoned him. But that.
Fear has to start. With the fact that, oh, I
realize this is who I am and I'mnot sure if I'm OK with that.
I'm I'm scared of that. And I think that's what he, and
I think with that one, he was processing that with Robin, the

(22:00):
fear of being different and then.
He. He then became OK with that and
then when he got taken over withVegna it was and not that they
abandoned him like he even said I push people away because I
didn't want to see how they were, their fear and worry about
me. So I didn't want.
To and that was that was deep but here here's my points now

(22:23):
y'all know I'm crazy. What I'm confused about how if
he is, this is his coming out story.
Why are we judging? First of all, how long he was
and how many people in the room?Everybody got their own story to
tell. Like I never had to come out,
but I may want to come out a little different than the next

(22:43):
door neighbor came out. But why are we putting
parameters around how he came out?
I've seen a lot of that and everybody online discourse.
Yeah, yeah. Because like it.
Was too long, he says too many things.
It should only be first of all, let's go back to what y'all
said. It could not be just his mom,
because The thing is, if he justtold his mom, of course, Joyce

(23:05):
is like, I'm not leaving you, honey.
I'm going to live in your basement with you.
She ain't going nowhere. But Wagner showed him everybody,
his friends. So he had to tell everybody.
And then this is not the time tobe like, OK, I only need Lucas,
Dustin, Steve. No, no, Steve, you can stay in

(23:26):
that other room. Robin.
Yeah. I need you to come for
encouragement. OK.
Hopper, I don't need you. Like this ain't the time to be
like, I only need these four people, not this group.
Everyone just come in here. Yeah, look, let's just get this
over with. Let's just get it over with.
Because once I tell a whole big group, if anything, when you
have to tell anybody something and you tell the whole group,

(23:49):
after you tell the whole group you good.
And but I'm not going to tell. Two people here then go into
another room and tell these two people and have a whole day of
me trying to tell them that I'm gay.
That's not happening. Yeah.
Yeah. OK.
That's one second of all. Shade, little shade.
The wheel. Will.

(24:09):
Will, you did not have to throw Robin's business out there, but
thank goodness no one knows about Tammy.
Thank you. Well, Steve.
Yeah. I mean, thank you.
I'm just saying. So Robin, don't say nothing
about Tammy for another year until you really come out.
No, because you know what I think this scene also did.

(24:30):
The scene also. Showed Robin that.
These are people. She would be safe with Oh yeah,
yeah, I'm just making a joke that he throw Tammy out there
and I'm like, that's not hurt. That's not your story to tell,
dude. Keep Tammy in, keep Tammy in.
But again, and then for the people didn't know.

(24:50):
Come on now. So at this point, I'm I'm
starting you. I can put the information in the
comments, but we have known thatthis has been wheeled since
season 1. And if you're not sure about
season 1, you definitely know inseason 2.
If you're not sure about season 2, damn it, you know it's season

(25:10):
3. And if you weren't sure in
season 3, you don't know about the picture you drew in season
4. What show you?
Watching at this point. I don't think you really
watching Stranger Things and really digging in like we are
with Strange Things. I think you just coming along
because everyone's excited aboutStranger Things.
There's nothing wrong with that.I've done that with plenty of

(25:30):
shows. However, however, this is this
boy's story, and again, this is the end.
We're not giving them anymore. So we needed him to come out.
Yeah, and we needed him to pointout to Mike that you are the
crush. And you know what?
It's so. Crazy specifically.
Pointed out who else could. It be he was it wasn't Lucas

(25:53):
when it wasn't Dustin when he said it, he's looking at the
crack, he's looking at the wholegroup.
And then when he said but I had a crush on someone, his eyes
specifically went to Mike. And if you look at the way Mike
reacted, Mike didn't do a whole big thing, but you could tell
from his eyes he looked and he was like, oh, wait, that's me.

(26:15):
But not only that, Mike was the one, and I think it was season 2
who pointed out to Will. He was like, it's not our fault
that you don't like girls. I think Mike had a double
realization there. Mike realized 10 I was the
crush, but he literally said I had I had a crush on someone,
but I realized it was not about that person.

(26:36):
OK, so he already is like, oh, OK, so this is not going to be
awkward because it could be awkward at the beginning.
We we best friends to give it. I'm your Saint.
The others on the other side, He's like, oh shit, I may have
realized this way before anybodyelse did right.
And when he said it, when he didsay it is when he said it.

(26:58):
I don't even think he was thinking that because there's
sometimes people are into even if Will wasn't, Will wasn't
there yet. Our maturity level are
different. Like some of us got into boys
and girls. Oh, that doesn't sound right as
an adult saying that, but we hadsome.
Of us A. Little earlier, yeah.

(27:21):
Some of us were kidnapped. By Vecna and held for a while so
yeah, that would cause so like our love interest came at
different times like even let's just point out OK if Will wasn't
gay like Will may have just still been playing with toys and
D&D and he wasn't interested in his hormones didn't hit he

(27:41):
wasn't interested in anything atthat point in time.
Well, first of all, damn it, I've been kidnapped.
I'm I'm behind even though I'm kidnapped that long, but I'm
still a little bit behind in you.
I'm still trying to get my bearing.
I'm still trying to figure out why that slug came out my mouth
in the sink. So I'm having other issues and
I'm not thinking about dating atthis point.
Mike, you only think. About dating because L popped up

(28:03):
in your basement you. Know what I'm saying?
If L. Didn't pop up in your basement.
You may have not thought about anybody either.
Dustin only finally thought about somebody in Season 3
because he went to camp and found someone super intelligent.
If he didn't go to camp, he wasn't liking anybody.
He didn't like Max. They all liked.
Max, because she was different. Yeah, that was only.

(28:26):
Yeah, so. Come on.
But that was just my, my, my thing about we'll let him have
his moment. Like, damn, everyone has had a
moment. Literally we've.
Been. Having Will and his neck hairs
for years he hadn't had much to say.
He's he's awkward, he's trying to figure out life and finally

(28:49):
he has got his feet on the ground.
He is doing some things and y'all want to give him that 7
minutes of dialogue, let him have it.
I think in this part I. Think at this point Will has
earned it. He has.
Well, first of all, you, I'm sorry, that's just another
podcast even also he's been violated this season.

(29:11):
What I think he can have whatever he want and then he got
violated again. That's all right.
Because y'all can't. Tell me this, that is the most
disgusting thing. Whatever they pumping into the
the keys in their mouth. I'm sorry, it's horrible.
Listen the. Sound.
Effects when? That thing went.

(29:33):
Into Derek's mouth in this I waslike, you know what?
I I don't need to like if. It was Thomas.
I would have been OK and it doesn't go.
Gently, it is just a. Damn right into the face.
Aliens. I can't jam right into the.
Face, I was like, oh, can we be a little bit more gentle, gentle
with the kids and is this care? No, and since fuck them kids.

(29:57):
Yeah, he has and I'm about readyto too.
But OK, since we talked about the character.
So what do you think is going tohappen on Wednesday for Will and
Joyce? Since Joyce was thrown in there,
she got nothing left but Will and Joyce.
OK, so. I guess I'm going to encompass

(30:18):
this whole thing because we've been talking back and forth
about characters and who we think may survive, who we think
may die, whatever, whatever. And I don't know, the more that
I, I've watched it now, I think this is like my third or fourth
time I'm watching. Episode 5 is playing in the
background, having conversationswith Anthony on what, Thursday?

(30:40):
And then having conversations with both of you today.
I think I'm. About to be on the side of I
don't think anybody's going to die or I may think one or two
people are going to die. I don't think Joyce is going to
die. I think Joyce has been through
enough. Joyce deserves her little slice
of happiness with Hopper, Which.I don't know how that's going

(31:02):
to. Happen and we will just we
deserves to kill Becna at this point aside from 11:00 will.
Probably. Deserves to kill Becna more than
anyone and we see that he can't.He can come close.
He got yeated out of Becna's brain, but now that he doesn't
have anything else to fear at this point, he's just like OK,

(31:25):
I'm a go for it. Let will have his moment.
I would love to see will have his I'm killing the night Kane
moment. I really will.
I I. I feel.
If we're talking just about willkind of the same thing, because
you know, I've I've mentioned itbefore.
We couldn't figure out what I mentioned before, but every

(31:49):
fantasy thing or even like one of my favorite video game of all
time, Mass Effect, you have to do a loyalty mission in order to
make sure your characters are ready for the final battle.
And the loyalty missions are always about clearing your
conscience and and clearing up your relationships and make sure

(32:09):
you don't have anything weighingon you going in.
And now that he doesn't have that fear anymore that Wegna can
play on, I believe with Max's help, because Max is going to be
like, Oh yeah, there's somethingthat Vecna fears, Henry fears
something. And somehow or another he's
going to be able to use that against Vecna.

(32:31):
And I think that's that's how it's going to end.
He's going to be able to defeat him because he doesn't have any
fear, but Vecna does. And I mean.
And I do agree with Hanukkah that he is probably more
deserving of dealing with Victoria then I'll because once

(32:52):
we once we get to ill, I have some stuff to say about she'll
have some something to deal withon her own.
She ain't going to have time to be trying to deal with Victoria
because she's going to have problems with her own.
Yeah. OK.
You know what, I do have this question and we talked about,
Michelle talked about this in volume one.
They don't mention things just randomly and leave them there.

(33:17):
Like they always come back. Just like the whole thing with
the wormholes we saw in Volume to that wormhole thing was a
very important piece of the whole thing.
Is like literally the thing thatwe have been watching since
season 1 and had no clue about because that's what we find out
the Upside Down is. So going back to the whole Will

(33:38):
and Vecna thing, when Max is talking to them about or when
she's talking to Will about the plan that they have devised to
to kind of bring down Vecna. And she talks about how she was
able to stay safe in Vecna's mind.
And she talks about the memory. And she said there's, you know,

(33:58):
he's still scared of that memory, she said, which shows
that deep down inside there is apart of him that's still human.
She was like, yeah, he's, he's amonster, but human I'm.
Wondering if? That's going to have something
to do with how they defeat him. Like are they going to find some
kind of way to restore his humanity back to him as opposed

(34:20):
to just outright killing him? I I mean.
At this point, I wouldn't rule it out, but it's kind of like
he's also, I mean, yeah, Vecna is a villain.
He's been doing all these horrible things, but we got to
think Vecna was a villain. I mean, he was a victim first.

(34:44):
And I'm just. I'm just wondering Michelle
looking at me like. Am I?
Am I touching? On something close what?
What? If you think about like one of
the biggest things in the 80s was Star Wars and even Darth
Vader was redeemed, you are. At.
The right path, so he. He could.

(35:05):
Be he could be, you know, if you, if you're like the
Skywalker, he could always be. Redeemed.
I don't want to say. There's no coming back for.
Him though he he can be redeemed, but like what what
they let's you know? If I.
Want to say Christmas? Tree.
Well, see, he will be. Redeemed.
He will be like Skylo Kylo. He will be redeemed, but then

(35:28):
you die so he can be redeemed. Redeemed.
And and and there's. Little things about him planted
in different places that kind ofgo with what you're saying as
well as from *. Wars, yeah, so and.
That's why I'm going to that's why, you know, knowing certain
things. Yeah, you were on the right

(35:50):
path. And I, I, I believe that I but
it's like we have to, we have tosay I'm going to help everyone.
Like I know what's happening. Like, you know, the Duffel
brothers, like you gave me a message, but we have inside
scoop. Yeah.
I I can take what was given. Process that.
And say Hanukkah's on the right path because we we're, we're

(36:10):
forgetting another person, another thing in this.
Is it a black shadow? Fair.
Yeah, but that's not who I. Was talking about OK, I'm going
to go on with Will. I believe that Will is the
person that deserves to kill. Or breakdown.
Vecna maybe not kill him or break him down, OK, because he

(36:35):
was he is the true victim of Vecna and all the things that's
happened and the mine player everyone Ale really just Ale
just got duped in the hospital. That's all she did, that's all
that. You know what I'm saying?
She doesn't. Will deserves it.
When this is all over, Will be alive.

(36:57):
Will. Will move to new.
York will be an artist, will be living in a studio he will find,
he will go to therapy and then he will meet.
The love of his life. And then he will still be in
contact with going to need theirown therapist.

(37:20):
They. Yeah, yeah, he will be in
contact with his friends. His mom, I don't believe will
have anyone. So you can kind of hint at the
next character that we'll be talking about later.
She'll be alone, but he will gether a cabin by the lake and she
will be fine to Joyce. Yes, a Cam will.

(37:40):
Hopper. She'll be in the cabin by.
The lake so, so let's let's moveon to Hopkins by the lake.
That's since that's what you're inferring.
OK, two things about Hopper. Well, since.
Everyone's going to. Live.
Yeah, I guess so. Hopper Yeah, yeah, 'cause like.
After the show they got to move out of.

(38:01):
Hot. They have to move.
No, Yeah, they all going to haveto move out of Hawkins.
Damn, everyone move that. Yeah, after.
We finished watching watching Volume 2.
I did a lot of thinking and I was like, you know, again, just
like all the fantasy books I read, the the people have to get

(38:21):
a happy ending after they accomplished finished the quest
and I you can't get a happy ending by dying.
So I don't think they're going to kill anyone.
I think everybody is going to survive.
So why is it? So who says dying is not a happy
ending if you die with purpose it?
Doesn't If Harper dies, Joyce and Ell are not going to have a

(38:44):
happy ending. They won't have a happy.
Ending he will die in peace. I'm not saying he'll die people,
but I'm I'm just saying like he'll die saying.
Is going to be crushed. Everybody is.
Going to be. Crushed.
Everybody is going to be crushed, so you can't.
We can't lose anyone because everyone has to be happy,

(39:05):
everyone. So, so Callie Callie's dead.
Callie's dead because. I'm OK, we came in.
She came in. Too late and she's.
Already trying to get I'll to commit suicide so yeah.
But Hopper and Joyce will be together.
Thank you. That's all I wanted.
To say Hopper and Joyce in the cabin by the lake.
I really want Joyce to be by. Herself.

(39:28):
I. Honestly, you got to go.
To the Enzos, come on down standing we don't have.
Any deaths reservation? I'm very much.
I'm like 1 foot kind of sort of over the fence about I'll
surviving. But I think if we do have
character death, I think she will probably be one of them.

(39:50):
And also I think they have also foreshadowed that Hopper may be
another. I think him and El may end up
being on that bridge together and and and and dying because we
think about him. From, from, from what we've seen
already, Callie has come in. She's basically told Elle, hey,

(40:11):
So what Doctor K is doing? She rebooted Papa's program.
They kept me in there. They were taking my blood.
They were taking lots of my blood.
And when I tried to escape, I found out that they had more
pregnant women. They were giving the pregnant
women my blood so that their unborn children could become
numbers like us. But my blood was making them
sick and it was not It was killing them.

(40:32):
You are the closest to Henry, and Henry's blood is what made
us. So they're after you because
they want you. They want your blood to make the
program. So she's basically telling her
when they come up with the plan to collide the two worlds so
that they can destroy the Abyss and the the Upside Down.

(40:55):
And we'll talk about that in a little bit.
She. Basically is like.
We need to make sure that they don't have access to us, that
they can't do this anymore. And if we both survive or if you
survive, they're going to keep coming after you.
So what we need to do is when weblow this bridge up, we need to
be on, We need to be on the other side of it.

(41:16):
We need to not come back with everybody else.
OK, so there are. That's already that's already
showing that Elle has this in her mind that OK, maybe I need
to do this because when they go into the upside down, she looks
like Khalid. She gives her a nod, basically
saying OK, I agree, I understand.
Hopper has made. It very known and last in this

(41:41):
entire season. He's not willing to.
Risk Elle he. Doesn't want to lose.
Her he's willing to sacrifice himself to make sure that she
stays safe I mean he he had a bomb strapped to him in volume 1
and was going into what he thought was kill Vecna now at
the beginning of volume 2 we seethem going to the little church

(42:05):
on in the upside down they. Show us.
His bomb on the back of the truck.
The mom is still there. It's still, I'm assuming it can
still be used when Dustin says, OK, when we're on our way back
from the Upside Down, we need todrop a bomb in there and close
it all off. That way none of that can get

(42:26):
through again. I was like, OK, here we go,
Hopper. And then we have a conversation
with Hopper and Joyce. Hopper's like, I can't risk her,
I can't lose her. I can't.
And the way he says I can't, he's basically telling Joyce I'm
not about to lose another child.I would do whatever I have to do
not to lose this child. If that collar girl steps out of

(42:47):
line, I will kill her. He's not going to.
Kill her, I will. Not hesitate to kill her Hopper.
I think if he realizes that Elleis going to try to sacrifice
herself, he is going to stay behind with her because that way
now they can't use her. To to continue.

(43:09):
The program and Hopper has the bomb.
He's probably the only one who knows how.
Well, I won't say he's the only one who knows how to use it, but
he built it so he's the best person to know how to set it
off. If L is up sacrificing herself,
he's going to stay behind with her, right?
And the thing? About it is what we would you

(43:29):
didn't think about I didn't think.
About. But you didn't.
But you didn't think about what you didn't think about.
What you didn't think about was in volume one.
A couple things you think about in volume 1.
In volume 1. He was literally really at peace
that he was going to blow it up and that he got to see his

(43:53):
daughter. It's it's going to happen.
Again, like he right now, yeah, he loved Joyce, but if he can
see that, he can see that L is safe and.
Taken care of and. That he can see his daughter
again. He's willing to go.
That is his happy ending. Then he do.
Then he shows can find another name.
My thing about it is he's. Already done this.

(44:14):
He did it at the end of season 2, right?
Yeah, but this time he finally. Dies.
He dies a good death. Yeah, I'm pretty.
Sure he was. Was that a Superman man?
Of steel a good death. And possibly with.
His other daughter, right? Really like honestly that we
keep seeing his daughter from season 1.

(44:36):
So basically for him. And I also feel like.
He thinks, like, I feel like Hopper feels like this would be
his penance and this would be his way from making up for
Sarah. Because what?
What did we find out in last season?
He felt guilty about Sarah because he knew going into his

(44:57):
marriage that he should have been having children because of
what they did to him in the military.
So we already know that he feelslike he was the one that killed
her. And that's one of the reasons
why he's so adamant about savingI'll So yeah, if.

(45:18):
There are any? Deaths, I think it probably will
be him and L and it will be themtogether.
Now that's not to say I want that because yes, I would love
for them to figure out a way to,I don't know, come back and
everything's OK. Maybe maybe when they get back,
maybe when they destroy Henry oryou know, restore his humanity

(45:39):
or whatever, maybe they find a way to erase all of that from
them. Maybe something in the abyss
will take that ability from them.
Take, I don't know, take Henry'sblood out of them, make them
regular humans. I don't know, maybe the
sacrifice of Kylie, because Kylie is going to die, that much
I'm sure of. But maybe whatever it is they do

(46:02):
to Vecna, what happened to L? Maybe when they come back from
the abyss, L will be a regular 11 year old girl and and
everybody can live happily ever after.
She can have a normal life because if she comes back with
her powers and she has children,those children might have the
same issue. Not necessarily issues.
They might have the same powers,they might have the same

(46:23):
abilities. And then her children will be
talking. They and then they were yeah,
they'll be targets. So we have to figure that out.
They have to figure that out, but they don't have to figure it
out because she can still be a target and that can be something
in the future they can go back to.
That's not really. A happy ending because you were
constantly in the run. Just take the problems from her

(46:43):
and let her come back to let hercome back to the right side up
as a regular girl. Let her live her life with her
boyfriend and her her adoptive father and her friends.
And let her go off and be somewhere where there's at least
one waterfall and be done with it, right?
Since we're on Hopper and 11, I'll go with Harper.

(47:06):
I mean, it's not much to say forhim in this season that I mean,
that's volume that he's a great dad.
Because you know that 8 is full of shit, OK?
She's full of shit. And you over there making all
the kind of facial expressions every time she talks.
And I'm with you, Sir. I like her creeping up behind

(47:28):
Ale. I don't like the comments she
has. I'm like you.
You only known her from now. How we grew up together.
That was a long time ago. That girl is different.
I really know her. Like, we spent time in a cabin
alone, barely. No television, no company for a
year. Yeah.
And then a year again. And currently, Come on.

(47:51):
Whatever. But I'm not my only.
I feel like Kylie is full of shit because I do believe that
she believes what she's telling Ella's is true and I believe
that there is a a bit of truth to it.
However. It's I'm.
Still not. I'm still not convinced that she

(48:12):
is. On our side.
Quote UN quote, our team side. There's something about her that
just don't seem right. Yeah, and that's what he's
feeling. So to me, that bitch got to go.
Yes, she does. But Hopper, another thing that
people have pointed out is, Oh my gosh, no one is saying that

(48:36):
he is alive. Friends Hopper has, you know,
they have conversations outside of what we see on the screen.
So they just told. And when you're dealing with?
All of this stuff that you dealing with and someone pops up
alive, you can be like, oh, the Russians must have had them and
you wouldn't have like, oh, I'm,I'm glad he's back.

(48:56):
No, I'm gonna be honest. I don't think Hopper has told
anybody that he's alive because he no, I'm, I'm talking about
the people who have seen him. And there's been a lot of
comments like Max and say what she needs to say about I'm like
those type of things. But when you've been through
what they have been through and then you see someone pop up,
it's not unbelievable, you know what I'm saying?

(49:18):
And then there's conversations outside of.
And then there's. Conversations, well, they were
like Missus Wheeler, she wouldn't have known but do you
think she care? Do you think she care?
Missus? Let's try this a box.
Do you think she care either? So she's probably looking like

(49:39):
oh, but you know what? Oh no, 'cause Hopper was and he
did come down to the hospital, so.
Yeah. They, they probably, again,
there's conversations that will be had on the side and second of
all, what I have gone and been through, is that the least of my
concerns to get on to? Know what is going.
On right. And.

(50:00):
Now, first of all, one Missus Wheeler can barely talk, so in
her mind, she could be thinking,oh, I thought that damn dude was
dead. OK, maybe he's alive.
Didn't her next thought is why to hear everybody at my house?
Don't he have a house somewhere that they could have went to
see? That would be the thought she
would have had. No.
You know what she's probably thinking when she's in that
hospital and she sees Hopper? She's probably looking at him

(50:25):
and the fact that she just blew up 3 demo dolls, She's probably
like, that's not the strangest thing I've seen today, right?
That's what I'm saying. End that out later.
Why they couldn't go live with him?
Because there was too many damn people in my house.
But she probably. Figured, I mean, Hopper was
declared dead. They probably sold his little
trailer that he was in in the first season living somewhere.

(50:46):
He's showing up at the hospital.He's clean and not dirty, so
he's somewhere you have to let go.
That sometimes there are conversations and then sometimes
you've been in situations where you'd be like, oh shit, I didn't
know that, but we'll talk about that later because that's not
what's important at the moment. No, no.

(51:09):
But the other thing is if, OK, so if we want to talk about
things that don't make sense or whatever.
Whatever happened to Derek's family?
This still. This still bound.
Who's going to? Go Who's going to go looking
for? Probably.
Who? Look, at this point, the

(51:29):
neighbor should have done a wellcheck.
We haven't seen the, I can't remember what their last names
are, but we haven't seen them inthe last couple of days and the
police go in. And and oh, the turnbows.
Yeah, and, and, and here they are.
They go into the house and they find a hole in the floor.
They find the wine cellar wrecked.

(51:50):
They're probably like where are.These people, I mean, but.
That's just what I was wonderingbecause I was like, y'all made a
very big scene of them being kidnapped and that we we thought
about them. I mean, I understand they're not
thinking about them. They got bigger fish to fry.
But yeah, it would just be nice to know what happened,
especially since Beckman used them to threaten Derek when he

(52:13):
realized Derek was turning. And the way he described them,
he was like, you're, what did hesay?
You're stupid, father, you're full of a mother, and you're a
snake. Your snake.
Of a mother snake. Of a mother.
And you're something since I waslike, what does he have against
them? Like he made it seem like it was
really personal. Which also makes me.

(52:36):
Wonder because Derek's family iscomprised of the same makeup as
Henry's family was Mother, dad, sister so.
I I don't. Know, but yeah, I mean.
Hyper being alive. Is not the the it's.
Not. The shock or surprise that I

(52:57):
think it would be for anybody, maybe maybe the Police
Department. But like we said in our earlier
conversation today, we haven't even seen the Police Department
in this season, which is weird because they've been in every
season at least, you know, freaking frack.
We haven't seen them at all. So it's kind of like, did the
military kind of disband the whole Police Department?

(53:20):
Like, yeah, we going, we going to worry about this because even
if the Police Department goes and investigates something
weird, if it has something to dowith what they're doing, the
military is just going to come in and take over it anyway.
So they probably send them out early retirement.
Like, you know what, we going tosend y'all out of the town,
don't come back. Don't worry about your jobs

(53:41):
here. We going to send you to the big
city, You get a big promotion orsomething, I don't know, but OK.
So is there anything else we need to say about Hopper right
now, aside from the fact that Lithink?
L We can. We can sprinkle throughout this

(54:01):
episode because there's so many different.
Parts that she kind of. Goes into as far as like having
to go, having to go find Will and all this other stuff.
So I but that's, but to be completely honest, I don't have
much left to talk about with L. And I know that was one of the
concerns that people did have was it was so strong Elle and

(54:23):
they feel like she's taking a back seat, but I'm like, I'm OK
with that because Will was in the back seat.
So now Will is in the forefront and Elle is supporting him
because honestly, we get to it. This has been about characters,
but what did this show start with?
It started with four boys. The core group.

(54:44):
Right. And.
That it's the core. It's the core group.
So. It's OK that AO isn't in the
forefront and first of all, right now L is dealing with her
own issues that she has to deal with.
And it's figuring out. What she wants to do and making
that decision of how she's goingto move forward with her future.

(55:06):
So I don't got time for stuff that that can be taken care of
by other people. I do.
What I do? And y'all do what y'all do.
So I need y'all to be some people got to step up.
I'm like, damn, I've been doing this for a long time.
Like step up and y'all stepped up in the past.
It's time for y'all to step up. She doesn't need to be in the
forefront. No, now she got somebody to

(55:26):
share her load. I mean, Will doesn't have powers
like she does, but he's he can do some things.
He can do some things. He just needs to now.
I mean, there is no time for training because by the end of
volume to we are, we are at N6. We are at the day that Beckman
is supposed to be merging these worlds together.

(55:48):
So he doesn't really have time to train, but he's gotten that
confession out. There's literally nothing else
Beckman can hold over him. Nothing.
So yeah, let him share that load.
Let L kind of take a back seat right now because again, if Elle

(56:08):
ends up doing what Callie is suggesting she does, she going
to have her moment. She'll have her moment.
And she's had plenty of moments over the last Four Seasons.
So she I doing what she doing. She she good, you know?
We have other characters. That we want to talk about and

(56:30):
that we want to see have some stuff going on and.
Moving on to that. I want to go to Dustin.
OK, I'm so glad that. Fight with him and Steve
happened. Because it needed to.
Happen. Yeah.
Because I was. I was.

(56:50):
I couldn't see Dustin anymore like that.
It was bothering me. It was.
It was painful, yeah, very painful just to see because he
was always the kid that was justso exciting.
And he, like, was happy. It's just a happy kid, yeah.
And excited about. Things and to see and then see

(57:12):
how it affects him and Steve relationship that really
bothered me yeah and also for for him in this season to talk
about acting their ass off. That scene.
The scene with the fight and then the scene where he keeps
Steve from from the staircase and basically keeps Steve from

(57:35):
dying. The acting in that was.
Just so heartbreaking, but it was so good.
It was and then I like it was a 2 parter like Steve don't I
can't have this happen again. Like he literally can't have it
again. And that right there told me
Steve will not die because if you kill Steve like Dustin got

(57:58):
to die like this boy will, his life will be horrible for the
rest of his life. To lose 2 important people to
him, he will have. Abandoned me he would and then.
Like he would not have good relationships.
No SO and I hope they think about that.
But again, we don't think anyonedied.
But I'm not think about it. I said them the Duffel brothers

(58:23):
think. About it so and then I like when
Steve came back and then said something to about how he felt
and then he missed. Yeah, I was like, this is so
great because you got 2 two guyswho are being open and honest
with their feelings, who are like, OK, hey, yeah, I fucked

(58:45):
up. I did this.
I said this, I acted this way because when I was, you know, I
was scared of losing another person that I love, that I cared
about, or because I was jealous because I felt like I didn't
have my best friend anymore. You know there was.
A lot of healthy conversations in this, in this.
Yeah, it was, it was. And it and it's, it's, it's

(59:09):
closure too, because one, the growth of Dustin and then the
growth of Steve, and then even at the end coming back and them
two, putting their ideas together.
And actually finally, you know, I love that Steve had the the
idea for the plan and the plan was good and and it was good.

(59:32):
Yeah, even Erica cosigned. Oh yeah, we got to come back.
To we, we got to come back to Erica too, but yeah, yeah.
That's and I like how. Steve is like I really and I'm
I'm tired of y'all people talking about Nancy because I'm
really not trying to get with Nancy.

(59:53):
I'm really being her friend and they.
Need to get their. Stuff together over there, but
I'm really just being her friend, yeah.
But I'm not trying. To get with her either.
I like it too because. She hurt his future.
He want, first of all, he know he got to pick another woman to
have some kids with Nuggets, youknow?

(01:00:14):
What I'm saying? He likes, he likes having those
kids. He complain about being the
babysitter, but you want more kids because you like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
But also the whole thing with Steve and Nancy, and just even
with what happens with Jonathan and Nancy later on.
You have. These are healthy relationships

(01:00:37):
now, you know what I'm saying? It's like Steve.
Realizes. OK, you know what?
Yeah, I kind of sort of still like Nancy, whatever, but she is
my friend. She is my friend first and
foremost. I'm going to be there for her.
I'm going to try to protect her,blah, blah, blah.
And then also, let's face it, out of the three, or rather the

(01:00:58):
four adults, Nancy probably has the most sense with Robin coming
in a very close second. Let's just be honest.
Think about it. When Steve got ready to punch
through to the Upside Down, Dustin and Jonathan are going
back and forth, back and forth. You can't do this, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah. He looked at Nancy.
Nancy was like, do it. They need a cosigner, right?

(01:01:20):
Because Nancy is very sure aboutthe things she does, even in
this episode. One thing that bothered me, you
find. Something.
Weird on the roof and you don't know what the fuck it is.
Don't shoot it. Don't.
Don't do. Anything that's so.
Weird 'cause you it's like wait wait.

(01:01:41):
Until you find go get Dustin andsay look what we found.
And then he would have been like, don't shoot.
I know what this is. But also how do you not
understand what he was saying onthe radio?
Because I understood it very, very well, even though it was
crackling. But you still don't shoot that

(01:02:02):
shit. I mean least all rock, even
Jonathan was. Like, Are you sure about this?
She's like, no. And you still pull the trigger.
Now let's wait. Can we wait 10 minutes, right?
So because at this point waitinganother 10.
Minutes ain't going. It ain't going to hurt.

(01:02:22):
You know, you know. Dustin and Steve are in the
building. All you have to do is just.
If if you can't if you can't getthem on the radio, open.
The door and yell. Down to them.
Hey, we. Something because yeah, I just.
I had, I had a problem with that.

(01:02:43):
But again, Nancy was When Nancy makes a decision, she makes a
decision. She doesn't go back and forth.
She doesn't, him and her, but yeah, yeah, we're going back to
the whole Steven Dustin thing. Dustin needed that.

(01:03:03):
Release and the one thing I liked about it even when Dustin
got violent when he was trying to fight Steve when he was when
he was like you know letting. Out all.
This anger, Steve, even though we've seen Steve get mad and
fight back, Steve didn't try to fight back.
I think he knew at that point Dustin needed this release.

(01:03:26):
Dustin needed to do something. And I.
Feel like he kind. Of baited him for that reason.
Maybe I'm maybe. I'm giving him too much credit.
You giving him too much credit. But I think he knew.
At that point, like something has got to give or else all of
this is going to go to shit. Well, well.
Let me not. Say you giving him too much
credit. I think you're right that.

(01:03:50):
I don't think he. Realized what was happening
until it started happening. Like yeah he baited him, but I
don't think he baited him for for Destin to blow off any
steam. I think he was being Steve.
And then once it started, he realized, oh, he's he.
Something's really going on withhim.
Yeah, right. Because he really didn't.
Fight him, yeah, Because he. He.

(01:04:11):
Because at Wolfman, he's like, OK, hold on, wait, wait, wait,
stop, stop. You know he because he.
Realized what was happening, yeah.
But I don't think. He I don't think he was baiting
him to give him the goat to do that.
I think he was baiting him because he's still here.
Yeah, they. Had to go back and forth and he
really was done, Yeah, and he told.
But then he realized. Told some things he shouldn't

(01:04:32):
have. Said out loud and he was like oh
wait, this. Is more than what what I thought
it was and that's why he didn't fight back, you know, because he
was throwing him around. He's like, OK, that's that's
enough chill out. That's enough.
I get it. Yeah, as he's tossing him
around. Well, and it wasn't even.
It wasn't even really tossing him around like he was trying to

(01:04:54):
stop Dustin. He was then he.
Did push him off a couple. He did push him off a couple of
times. Like, OK, get off me first,
yeah. But I'm glad he got.
That out of system because then when the next thing comes and
Steve is like, look, I'm going to try to save them blah blah
blah. He was like, no, you can't do
this. Stop being selfish.

(01:05:15):
I just and it's almost. Like I almost feel like maybe
Dustin. Dustin.
Unconsciously was pushing him away.
No, I think he was. Consciously doing it, I think he
was. I think he was doing.
It because he was. Saying he didn't want.
To He didn't want to lose anybody.
And here's the thing with I think Dustin is smart.

(01:05:37):
Enough to know that he, I think Dustin, realized that's what he
was doing, but I'm saying why when he was doing it.
I don't know if he was consciously aware that he was.
That he was pushing. He's probably, I don't, I don't
know if he was pitching all the way, but he definitely was
pushing Steve away. But I don't know if he was
actively doing it on purpose. I don't think he made.

(01:05:58):
I don't think he made a conscious effort to do that.
I think he just in, I think in his mind he was like, you know
what, I got this other thing I want to do, deal with these
bullies and focus on that and not worry about Steve and not
really understand what was happening.
Deep on the deeper. Level.
He didn't until then. Not until.

(01:06:20):
Then not until then. Right then he realized where
that was. Yeah, he.
Was realizing where they're coming.
From because he said I miss. My friend, he's like, I miss you
too, you know? Yeah.
So I don't think he consciously was doing it.
I just think it was unconscious like.
We do we do that those things right which.
Is if Steve? Dies he he's going to do that in

(01:06:40):
relationships and not knowing that he won't.
Commit to a relationship. Because he's his fear of losing
someone. So he was doing a lot of things
and then he wanted to fight. He had a lot of anger.
He needed to get it out. So that's what his whole issue
with the bullies were. He was still connecting with his
friends, but he was still holding them at a arm's reach.

(01:07:09):
But not all the time. I think he did a lot more with
Steve because Steve does things that will cause him to die, and
he did. Say you always got to be the
hero, right? And that that.
Is the that is the thing? Like he's also mad at Steve
because Steve didn't save Eddie but then Eddie saved Steve but

(01:07:29):
then Steve was right about Eddie.
Like y'all didn't really have todo that.
Eddie was supposed to protect. You and and this is what
happened and it happens because Steve does the same thing and it
works out for him but it didn't work out for Eddie and Dustin
knows that he knows that Lucas is going to do so much Lucas was

(01:07:52):
going to be all right Max is going to be all right now Max
I'm sorry Mike is going to be all right all right and Will's
going to be all right but. Steve.
Yes, a lot of it was pent up towards Steve and.
Then to. Get it all out the bullies so he
had to interact with them and hefigured that out when.

(01:08:14):
Steve was about. To do something that will cause
him to actually die. And you're faced with that.
Truth. Yeah.
I kind of feel like I. Feel like he was.
Conscious of what he was doing simply because.
And I think it was easier. For him to push Steve away and
be like, OK, you know what? I can keep him at arm's length,

(01:08:37):
but at least at arm's length, I can still see him.
I still like there's not as muchof a chance of him.
Maybe me losing. Him because I, I guess he felt
he could have felt like if he pushes Steve away, Steve will
kind of disengage from that whole group and all the stuff
that they do and he'll be safe. And I think.

(01:09:01):
Again, I think a lot of it too, has to go back to Dustin having
a lot of of guilt. I think he felt guilty about
Eddie. Some of that guilt.
Transferred to the whole Steve thing and.
I think he was. Just kind of like, OK, you know
what? I'm just going to keep him right
here. And I'm just.

(01:09:22):
Going to shout at him and I'm just going to, you know, make
him not want to be around me andhe'll be OK.
At least I'll know he'll be OK. I might miss him, but he'll be
OK. You've given him too much credit
for his age. Hanukkah, honestly, or even
1817. I remember it's like being 1617,
right? But you don't consciously say

(01:09:43):
I'm pushing someone away. Yes, you do.
If you're dealing with grief. Again, I've, I've been there at
that age. I have too.
But I'm like working with people.
You do little things like we alldo things.
And when you look at the whole picture, you are pushing people
away. There's some things he's saying
that he's doing that he's pushing away.
But a lot of the stuff he was doing, he was doing, he was

(01:10:04):
doing out of his anger and his grief, but not knowing that that
is causing you to further put a rift in your relationship with
someone else. I don't know, I, I, I don't
think he woke up this morning and say, I'm going to keep
pushing Steve away. No, I think that's but when
Steve comes in, his Steve comes around you, you start feeling

(01:10:25):
certain things and you start saying different things.
That's going to cause you to have a separation, you guys,
because you gotta disagree, right?
Because you even look at the scenes I told him and I said,
look at the scenes when they're all in the woods.
Like there was even a moment where he was playing with his
friends and you can see the old Dustin.

(01:10:49):
And then as soon as they separated, he went right back.
And he probably didn't even realized.
And people probably didn't even realize if you looked at that
scene after they said what they need to do when he was all being
serious. And then they start joking
around, jumping on each other, tossing each other in the woods
and like you can see the old him.

(01:11:10):
And then as soon as they separated, he went back to
everything, that weight being back on him.
OK, I I still. Think that I'm going to add.
Him to to to the therapy list for next.
Oh yeah, Oh yeah, He still he. Still needs it, even though he

(01:11:33):
had his little conversation withSteve.
But that was that was a lot. And then the thing about it is
we don't know like. I like.
What the kids even said in the interview.
Like, we don't even know how Will was before season 1.
Yeah, we don't know how what Dustin was already dealing with

(01:11:57):
with having a single mom. Like, how did he have a single
mom? Where is his dad?
What issues did he already have Lonnie somewhere?
You know what I'm just saying because Lonnie Byers was a, he
was a, he was a shitty dad. And unfortunately, yeah, 'cause

(01:12:18):
he's just, he's just like Will. But it's like different, you see
what I'm saying? Like it's it's different on how
that looks like. Somehow Dustin have money but
not have money. His Mama ain't working like
Joyce is working and and and andDustin to key thing Dustin get

(01:12:41):
to go to camp. That's true.
Out of out of state. Yeah.
OK, Yeah. Now he may have got a sponsor,
but he is his his his household is a little different.
And now I'm starting to wonder, where is his Mama?
Sitting at home answering the. Phone a new cat.

(01:13:01):
They got her another cat after that sitting at home answering
the phone. Because we, we at least know,
you know, because I think when Dustin missed the squawk, they
called, they called his house looking for him.
They was like, I just talked to Dustin's mom.
She hasn't heard from him either.
So we know she she's somewhere. She's sitting over there with
the cat. You sit on that couch with that
cat. I can't I.

(01:13:24):
Just can't. But we don't know.
Like we don't know his, like hishistory.
Like we got Steve's history. We.
No, we really. Don't have Steve's history, do
we? Like we don't know nothing about
Steve's family. What?
What's going on with Steve's family?
Because I don't remember. His dad is.
Hard on him but they are not around a lot and when his.

(01:13:48):
Dad goes. Out of town his mom goes trying
to keep up with him because he may have gotten into some
things. Oh, OK.
I don't remember that, but OK. He he kind of said it when they
came to his house. Like his dad went out of town
and his mom had to go, you know?Like.
Trying to watch. His dad.

(01:14:09):
And that is that expects him to be almost like in the family
business like with the uncle andthen they kind of like was not.
Let the parents of that. Time they wasn't really
involved, but was on hard on himto follow in their footsteps.
You know, be popular, be the popular, be the job, Yeah.

(01:14:35):
Follow along you. Know it wasn't expected for him
to go to college expecting goodness to the business, right,
right. OK, because he mentioned that,
too. I do remember that part.
Yeah. Yeah.
So for him wanting a family, a big family, is because of his
interaction with the kids. And then he realized he actually
like it. You know, he complaints all the

(01:14:57):
time about it, but he likes, he really likes being in a family.
Yeah. Nancy's.
Never going to want kids 'cause she's got not right.
Now, OK, that's her half her career.
Maybe one or two, one or two, one or two like.

(01:15:17):
I don't need no children. I have raised children.
I Yeah. Right.
On the other hand, I got Nancy'sfuture.
Well, I got Nancy's future. So Dustin is going to have his
six kids and he's going to name Will Mike Lucas, right, Dustin,
right, Matt, right. He's going to have he's going to

(01:15:42):
have a fun loving like wife and stuff.
He is going to still be in contact with Robin and who she's
with. I'm not saying who's Auntie
Robin to the. Kids right she go.
You know, and he gonna have to explain to his wife why you
don't have to worry about Robin in our relationship.

(01:16:05):
I think she'll figure. It out every time Auntie Robin
comes around, auntie Susan comesaround and.
Well, she may not see Robin. Robin is not going to be with
Vicki. But yeah, Robin's not going to
be with Vicki. So yeah.
And then Robin's. Not going to be with Vicki, No,

(01:16:27):
that's a goal. Study I don't know but yeah
that's just one of those that's that's like a first love and
she's always going to have fond memories of her but we'll get to
that one but and then Dustin is going to like the kids all know
Dustin like they need they need work with a man prom right and

(01:16:48):
and one of Steve Kidd is going to be super intelligent that
Dustin's going to take. I'd be like, let him.
Spend a week with me and they bedoing all kind of experiments
because, yeah, because Dustin's going to be a professor.
OK, I can see. That he going to be a professor
and he's going to do research and some for a company that he

(01:17:12):
owns. OK, that's going to give us
iPhones. This is a Michelle.
Thing where she likes to she likes.
To plan everybody's future, that's the plan, everybody.
'S future after movies and TV shows going better give me that.
The inherited thing just continues.
On OK, go ahead well she. Mentioned professors, Let's talk
about Mr. Clark, because I'm so glad that Mister Clark is

(01:17:34):
finally in the know, right? And I, I'm sorry, when I called
the minister Scott earlier, yes,this is fantastic.
This is the best day of his life.
It's the best day of the year. You know the one.
Thing I want. To say about about Mr. Clark is
yes, Nichols. On Michelle's. 3rd viewing of

(01:17:57):
the episode I realized, oh, the librarian called him Nichols.
That's where he got it from. And I was like, oh.
That's where he got it from. And then, oh, side note, didn't
Hopper also date the librarian too?
Yeah, I think. So yeah, but you know what in a?
Town that small, There's going to be some old man first.

(01:18:21):
Of all when they. Came to Mr. Clark another time.
He had another woman. Mr. Clark is the pimp.
Oh so. OK, So what I wanted to say
about Mr. Clark is he made me think that, you know, I felt
really bad that Bob is not around because Bob and Mr. Clark
would have had a lot of this stuff figured out.
Yeah. Once.
Once they were in the. Know they've been not clear.

(01:18:42):
Mr. Clark, I. Wasn't trying to imply.
That as I'm saying yeah, if Bob when he's like yeah, he's in the
know now and and you know Bob rest in peace with it would have
been they they would have made agood team yeah, if he.
Was still around. And then the thing.
About what I like about Mr. Clark is, and I think we should

(01:19:03):
do this in life when opportunities open up, don't be
hesitant. Just go with it.
Just go with it because you never know what that will lead
you to. And for Mr. Clark, like
literally we making jokes like this is the best day of his
life, right? Like stuff that you like thought

(01:19:25):
of and you read about and you know of you saw something.
You got to see. And experience, experience some
things that you no other person could possibly.
So instead of those times when people like, hey, you want to go
here or go there or try this andlike, no, no, no, I got to stay

(01:19:47):
home with the librarian. No, don't be knocking on my door
at 5:15 in the morning. Just say just go with it.
As long as it doesn't seem that dangerous.
Everyone, I don't want you to commit to something that may
cause some life harm, but just go with it.
Opportunity arrived. Guys go with it because you
never know where it's going to take you, Yeah.

(01:20:07):
But now at. Least he has answers like oh
This is why they've been asking me strange stuff over the last.
Yeah, because you got to. Think for somebody like him, you
have a student who disappeared, was presumed dead, came back to
life or returned, or whatever the case may be.

(01:20:28):
I'm sure he had some questions. Then you have all of this.
Other stuff, them calling askinghim about an immersion tank and
if we wanted to do this and he'slike OK 600 y'all need £600 of
salt and all this other stuff. Now he can sit back and think
like. This is what they were doing and

(01:20:50):
he can actually. I think in a lot of ways he can
feel proud and, and really feel like he's a part of that because
he was one of the reasons why they have an interest in all
that stuff or he nurtured that part of them, you know, but the
fact that he's in it and, and the other crazy thing is he went

(01:21:11):
and did it all. Because he.
He. Heard his star student was in
trouble. He didn't know about anything
yet. Because when he finally does
show up and meet up with the rest of the game and they were
like, yeah, Dustin's in under. And he was like under, they're
looking at Erica. Like you didn't tell him.
And she's probably looking at them like, well, I didn't know
if I should. I didn't know if I could.

(01:21:31):
I didn't know if I was supposed to.
Like I told him the information he needed in order to do what we
needed him to do right. So and then he has another
another star studio with him. He was like all in Erica.
Yes, let's talk about Erica. Well, Mr. Clark.

(01:21:54):
Survives. Oh, absolutely.
He writes a book and probably goes on look and probably goes
on the speaking circuit, yeah. Talking.
And they might. So where you know that from?
I don't know. I just more information.
I know about wormholes, right? Yeah.
He's going to become a famous science fiction author.

(01:22:16):
There you go. But Erica Sinclair.
So I read. Something on Twitter.
That really had me. Confused and and a little bit
perturbed because somebody made the statement that Holly Wheeler
has had more character development in seven episodes

(01:22:37):
that Erica Sinclair has had in the entire show.
And I'm looking at her like, arewe watching the same show?
Because Erica Sinclair don't really need character
development. Like character development is
what happens when you take a character and you give them
story and you give them back story and you give them a art

(01:22:59):
and it kind of develops who theybecome.
Erica Sinclair has been Erica Sinclair since day one.
Since we met her. She has been sassy, she has been
smart, she has been confident, she has stood up for herself.
She like. What more?
Development do you need to have for her and and she did have

(01:23:23):
some development because she wasable to also dusting basically.
Was like. Just embrace that you are
extremely smart. Just embrace it.
Add it on. You are a nerd.
And then? After that, she.
Was like, you know what, you right I am because I'm smarter

(01:23:43):
than some of these dumb mobile phones around here.
And she just in essence, she just added that on.
So she says, you know what, I'm going to be the one sitting in
the front of the room in Mr. Clark class.
And enjoying. Wormholes.
So we were watching the. Battle of star core episode and
Erica because they were doing the plan and Erica was like

(01:24:04):
their plan sucks. Y'all are going to die and her
interaction, her interaction with Murray and I'm 10, your
ball. Back.
She said so many. Out of pocket things to him, I'm
like, Oh my God, that was so uncalled for.

(01:24:26):
But she doesn't care. She doesn't care about your
feelings. At all.
I mean. Even in front.
Of her parents her parents were like Erica stating the facts
like. Eric, I mean.
Notice out of all of those little kids, even though now
she's older, ain't nobody messedwith Erica, ain't nobody came

(01:24:48):
close to missing messing with Erica, no.
And people have. Timed the volume 1 episode where
she told them y'all got one minute.
People have actually timed it and it's been fun.
Exactly 1 minute yes. Uh huh.
It's been one minute. Yep.
So, but yeah. I heard her coming through first

(01:25:14):
of all in volume one with the syringe.
We we've already talked about that and then just in this one
like she. Is she?
Is one of the people that I think has been valuable to the
group, and even in this episode or in this volume when they're
trying to figure out the plan, she and Lucas go off to do 2

(01:25:35):
separate things. We have two.
Separate. Epiphanies and come back
together and they're like, oh, OK, let's see which one of us is
the smartest Sinclair. OK, here's my plan, blah blah
blah blah blah. Well here's my plan and it's a
better. I loved it.
Yeah, he said. My plan is bigger, better,
older. Yeah, going back to his New Coke

(01:25:57):
speech. In volume.
Three I mean season 3, but but. I mean I.
I love that character. I love the fact that she is a
cute little black girl. She doesn't apologize for her
cuteness. She doesn't apologize for her
brain. She doesn't apologize for her
mouth. She was like, look, this is me.

(01:26:18):
This is who I am and I'm not going to apologize for it.
I love it. And the fact that she's.
Right. At least 90.
Percent of the time that she says anything, I mean, it could
be something big, like the plan she made in volume to where it
can be something small, like youcan't spell America without

(01:26:40):
Erica. I was like, wait, what?
I love it. Yes, for.
Me, I love that character and she definitely will not be dying
in in this she. Won't.
She Won't. She won't.
She'll run a Fortune 500 company.
No, no, no, she will. Own a Fortune 500.

(01:27:01):
OK, you saw where? She was when Vacna came out of
the portal and killed all the military people.
She was a back tower. She was.
Understanding everything. Exactly.
She probably said Nope. But they probably.
Also wasn't going to put her in that position and I don't think

(01:27:22):
she's not going to do that. I'm just saying.
She wouldn't even. They weren't going to send her
to the Upside Down because, I mean, granted, she just learned
about the Upside Down last year,you know?
And then also, she's younger than them.
She's still middle school age, technically.
So yeah, I don't think they would have done that.
But oh, Speaking of, Oh no. I wasn't talking about when they

(01:27:47):
went until sat down. I was saying when Victoria and
they came out of the portal in the battle, she was up in the
tower. They should have been there.
She was up in the tower. But she should have been down.
There because one, that is one kid.
He was not going to say, oh, she's weak, let me take her.
No, no. She's also.
Older than than his target demographic.

(01:28:07):
Yeah, I know. But I'm just saying no.
None. Other times.
Yeah. Yeah, when?
He was going. Through the town, that house he
just skipped over, yeah, he was like to get it, I'm done, 'cause
even Lucas is not that type of kid either.
So. I forget that.
Household, yeah, Yeah. But Speaking of the Upside Down,

(01:28:34):
I think, Michelle, I think you might have mentioned this.
Is it true that that really was Mike's first time in the Upside
Down? Yeah, that seems so.
Strange look then that means that would be Lucas's first time
too, right? He didn't go.
He didn't go. No, he didn't go.
He's. He's not on the truck, is he?

(01:28:56):
Now he will. Be his first time.
He didn't go. Yeah, he's on the truck.
He didn't go when they went. Oh, when they went to all your
desks. No, he was with.
Matt Yeah. So he didn't go, but he's on the
truck now. But now that's his first time.
First time. So Matt, his first time to be
the only person who hasn't been now, Yeah.
Yeah, wow. But yeah, that.

(01:29:17):
Was when they went when Erica. You count Erica.
Erica has been there. When that's right.
No, Erica. Robin has been.
Murray hasn't been. No, Murray.
Hasn't been, but then that was his first time.

(01:29:38):
Robin has been. Yeah, Robin was.
In there a long time in season 4yeah yeah, she was she was here
with Steve yeah but Mike cause Mike when they went to.
No, Mike did. Where did it?

(01:29:58):
Go where did. It go, it was just a little.
Bit meaning it wasn't the upsidedown, but it had the atmosphere,
the upside down and that was when they were in the tunnel.
So he just had no but adjacent because it still had the
floating particles. So, but for him, that would be
the closest. Yeah, close.
But no cigar. But it was still part of the No,

(01:30:24):
it wasn't. Part of the upside down.
It had the upside down. Particles, yeah, but so does
Hawkins. Well, now it did, but.
Back then it did. I'm just saying close.
That's the only time. If people came at you, they may
bring up the fact that he was inthe tunnels, Max.
Was only in there in her mind. She wasn't in there.

(01:30:45):
Well then Max was in the. Tunnels honestly too because she
drove them to the tunnels. She was in the tunnels too.
But officially this is Max. Hey I'm I'm with you.
This is Max first time. But the argument could be made
about the tunnels. No, it can't be.
No, because I'm just saying because of the partner.
Clearly. On your side agreeing.

(01:31:07):
I'm just saying so like it happens.
It doesn't. Sound like it?
I'm giving you the backup. So someone says something to
you. You have the the and the history
that they were. OK, so let's talk about the
tunnels. Let's talk about the tunnels,
because we find out in volume tothat Will is the one who
actually built the tunnels. Because Becca.

(01:31:27):
Used him as his vessel. And builder, He called him his.
Builder and that's. Why the upside sound date is the
date that Will was missing. You're right y'all, he.
Has been abusing it, but he was his builder, his spy, his
vessel. He has assaulted that.
Boy since season 1, right? Which is why.

(01:31:49):
It it it's only fitting. That will does.
What he does so. So let me tell you.
The scene. Where Max and Holly are trying
to escape. And Vechner comes.
After them first. Of all.
That little scene at the top where Vechner changes in between

(01:32:13):
all his different personalities and then he ends up as as one
looking at them. I don't know what the fuck Jamie
Cambellbower does with his face.But I was scared.
That scene was so creepy and then for Will to be in his mind

(01:32:37):
and. Again, this is.
Him tapping into the hive mind. He's going after Vecna.
The things that he. Was doing when he grabbed hold
of Vecna and he started doing this like he was twisting a jar
a top off a jar. I was like is he really about to
try to break his neck? Yes he was really trying to
break Vec Vecna's neck broke hisleg was doing all this stuff and

(01:33:02):
I was just like are y'all reallygoing to kill Beckman this I was
like y'all can't it's too it's too early but then I started
thinking I was like well they. Keep saying that.
There's another big bad bigger than Vecna.
So I was like, OK, maybe they're.
Killing Vecna. Now and they're going to give us
the big or bad, but that whole scene with Will and Vecna and

(01:33:26):
and Will kind of taking control of Vecna's body, being able to
talk through Vecna to warn Max. Hey, you need to run.
The fact that Max was sitting there looking like what?
No, he he would not had to have repeated himself the first time.
He said, Max, if you can hear me, you need to run.

(01:33:46):
That would have been like, it's time to go up and gone.
It's time to go. You don't have to tell me twice.
And I think that's the only I think.
That's one of the. Only things I have the one of
the only issues I have with the volume with this volume is
dealing with Max's character because there were moments where

(01:34:08):
I feel like they slowed down. Her story.
In order to give us the story, but it's kind of like if you're
looking at it in in real time, you're like Max, you don't have
time for this. You need to go that that point
right there where Will or she thought it was 11, where whoever

(01:34:29):
was warning you to run, they shouldn't have had told you a
second time. You should have got the hell on
then. The other.
Part was when she and Holly finally do make it to where the
portals are, she gets ready to go through and she tells, you
know, she has a conversation with Holly that she has to stay.

(01:34:51):
I saw a lot of people were upsetwith that and a lot of people
were like, y'all should be running, y'all shouldn't have
taken that long. Again, going back to the whole
wheel dialogue. Max had to.
Explain to Holly. How she was going to have.
To get out there, because what was she going to?
How was what was going to happenif Holly went through Max's

(01:35:11):
portal with her, if she was evenable to go to the portal, she
has nobody. If she got left behind and Max
went to her body, she doesn't know where she is.
She doesn't know how to get out.She doesn't know how to create a
portal. So.
I didn't have a problem with that.
Part The part that I did have a problem was with was once Hollis

(01:35:35):
portal showed up, I know y'all had to do everything the
beautiful way, the glorious way to run.
Y'all should be running. Y'all should be running from
jump to me. We all agree on that one.
They should have been running. See you on the other side, see
you on the other side. Let's see who gets there first.
And I do I. Agree with you, and the thing

(01:35:55):
about it is. It has.
Been I they did a great pairing with Max and Holly because Max
helping Holly through and then Holly like encouraging Max and
giving her the space to like, I'm not giving up.
You don't give up. And then working together and

(01:36:16):
even the speech at the end, likewe, we wanted Max to get to
Lucas. I didn't have time for the
conversation, but the conversation needed to be had.
Holly needed to hear those things, right.
It's just that again, I needed her to run.
But I get it. I get it.

(01:36:38):
Y'all had to play that Kate Bushone more time because I get it.
I get it because and because to be honest with you, like you
couldn't leave that girl the wayshe was.
Just leave her out there. We had to figure out how to get
hers to come up. And then telling her, well, this
is what you need to do. Who?
Knew that we. Went where we supposed to be,

(01:37:00):
like I didn't know where he had them.
I'm assuming, OK, how it's gonnaget to her house and they'll get
to her house where she was. But it was beautiful and.
Things she was. Saying I almost like in my heart
I thought she would think of hermom, but it wasn't.

(01:37:21):
Because at this point. She still doesn't know that
Cameron is actually alive. No, but just still like her mom
was always around. I just thought maybe her mom.
Was her. Inspiration.
I'm sorry, it's just, you know, me being a mom.
Well, here's the. Thing I knew it.
Wasn't I'm just saying during that speech, I just and it could
have been. But The thing is, it was her to

(01:37:41):
think of home. Think of what would get her home
if she's thinking her mom is dead because the last time she
saw her mom, her mom was face down on the floor with gashes
across her. She's not going to think.
That that's not well, no, and that's not what the speech was
for. I'm just saying and how they
wrote the speech, I was thinkingher mom would be her
inspiration, but it was more about empowering Holly, to be

(01:38:04):
honest with you. It was about that.
I was just saying I wanted to beher mom, but it wasn't.
It was. A great speech and it was about
empowering yourself which is thesame shit the will needed but
Holly got to so you know which will did get from Robin but Max
gave it to. Holly And then that was?

(01:38:24):
Good to push her for it because like she was, I didn't do this
when this was happening to mom and I didn't do this when it was
happening to you. Like boom, right?
Like what? Could you have done like they're
trying to kidnap you like you, you can't do anything and like
Max told her she said you're a Willie, you're smart.
You really think a fire poker would have stopped right him.

(01:38:48):
So I mean your dad had a Golf Club and and you see how that
worked out for him. I'm at a broken bottle of wine.
It still didn't work. So you know, you in a poker.
Oh, you going to do a whole lot honey with your 9 year old
strength. So OK, so who who we all we all
Max. Let's talk about Lou Max.

(01:39:11):
Well, you already. Know how I feel?
So I'm going to be quiet becausethat was just the best thing you
were. You know you're not going to be
that was the best thing in the world.
Y'all just don't understand how I felt on season 4 like you
felt. Like leading.
Up to what happened to Max, but you can feel how some they were
close and Max again was pushing herself apart because of her

(01:39:34):
guilt dealing with her brother. Like yeah, she thought many
times she wanted him to be dead because he, let's be completely
honest, he was abusive and he was an asshole he was.
But then. When someone actually.
Died you can be like, well damn,I didn't want them to die.
I just didn't want them to be a part of my life in that way.
So her feeling like that and just separating herself.

(01:39:56):
And if you watch the end of season 3 when her and Lucas is
just singing never ending story.And then I thought to myself
what that girl went through as the months pass and how she
really settled into every day and Elle's not around and she
she just really have Lucas and they're going to high school.

(01:40:19):
And then you start realizing that I caused all of this.
She was happy. And then to what she.
Got to when we started season 4 and.
Then for. Him to all the stuff we say
about him and then him trying tomake connections with her and
she just wouldn't connect. And.

(01:40:42):
To see like towards the end, he's like, I'm still right here
for you. And then just the feels when
they're in that house and she islike laying his arms and I can't
see and he's just crying. And I was like, I can't take
this. And then that boy bit at that
bedside every day. One of the Youtubers I listen to

(01:41:04):
while I go see that talks about Stranger Things theories.
He added his own information in there.
He was like. Lucas Parents.
Had to bring him clothes after school and meals because he
didn't want to leave the hospital and I'm listening to it
like dude. Like you, like me, you.
Just add no one because that's what we thinking like he ain't

(01:41:26):
leaving and if he does he makes sure he stops by every other day
he's playing next he made a longer tape set of that he's
reading to her like. It's a lot.
Yeah, and even for her to see him, for Max to see Lucas that

(01:41:47):
one time when she made it close and the damn tape stopped.
And then to realize. That.
Who knows where her Mama? Is because we haven't even
mentioned her mom but let's justignore that part so you know
what somebody said her mom make may be dead because that that
trailer park was near 1 of the risks Oh you'll find out OK yeah

(01:42:12):
so. Dead or something?
Or just can't take it any longer.
But to see that this boy is is is at your bedside still playing
your song. So that just encourages you.
And then you're at the end talking to Holly.
Why? You see your window open and
again, what do you see, Lucas? Yes, at this point, holding you,

(01:42:35):
carrying you. Like, I'm sorry.
This is I don't this is the bestlove story ever for.
Me, Lucas and Matt. In this show and they better be
together school sweethearts thatare going to come to the 60th
reunion and they're still married and they're still happy

(01:42:58):
and they have the inside jokes and stuff and even though
they're trauma bound too and we'll talk about that later with
another couple. They are OK with this.
OK they got kids, you know they look light skinned freckles
they're. Sandy Reddish.
Hair, you know what I'm saying? You know, you know those mixed

(01:43:19):
black kids because sandy reddishhair, so cute with freckles,
that is. That is them.
I don't what Lucas is doing as ajob.
I don't know what Max is doing as a job.
I ain't got that far. But they are together and they
are happy. Yeah.
Lucas, is that cool? Ass teacher that you had in high
school. Yeah, but I I so ask, maybe a

(01:43:44):
therapist do. You think?
Yeah, 'cause she yeah, I can seeher being a grief therapist.
OK, yeah. But it was, it was the best
thing in the world. And then to the.
Fact that. Caleb actually was carrying say
that whole time over. And over and care, and then to.

(01:44:08):
Watch the scene. It's it's cute and it's cute and
like intense because he is carrying her and when he got the
elevator as he kicked a Demi dog, he got the elevator.
Like what the Hell's going on? What's happening, What's going
on? And I'm like, I don't know.
He's like, well, where they comefrom, how they tracking us?
We don't know, but we got to hide at the same time he's
carrying with the music playing.I'm carrying with the music

(01:44:30):
playing, carrying her with the music playing.
And when when like he has the music playing, the demo dogs are
in the room with them and Robin's like we got to turn it
off. He was like, Nope, she's coming
back. Because before the the demo dogs
got to them, he could see that she was responding.
So he was like, Nope, something is happening.
She's coming back. Not I'm not losing her.

(01:44:53):
Gotta turn it off. And he's like, Nope.
And you see, he kept that music playing.
He turned it down a little, but he kept that music playing,
right? He was like, no, he didn't care,
but he wanted that music playingbecause Will gave him what he
needed and she was there. He believed she was there, but
he confirmed it and that they going after so he was going to

(01:45:15):
protect his Boo. But I mean I have cried every
time I see that scene yes, especially when she when she
finally opens her eyes. I love it that the first thing
he says to her is are you OK? Do you hurt anywhere like none
of the other superficial. He was like look, I are you OK?

(01:45:38):
Do you hurt? What what do I need to do?
I was like. This 16 year old.
Boy can teach a lot of grown assmen a thing or two about taking
care of their partner, right andand to the to the point where he
was like and then it confirmed it when she was like, I didn't

(01:46:00):
need the music and he was honesttoo.
I I'm not tired of the song, areyou?
Yes. Yeah, I was tired of it.
I'm tired of it. Michelle has watched the show so
many times. I am fine if I never hear that
song, so I kind. Of am but you know, only I'm
going to listen to it for you. Like that's our favorite, that's

(01:46:21):
our way to song. But I'm tired of it, to be
honest with you. And then she said I didn't need
it. All I needed was you.
That right there, we married. I'm good right?
And he didn't let her go. Y'all all trying to wonder why
Elle didn't hug her and all thisstuff.
Do y'all know that boy was stillholding on to her the whole

(01:46:42):
entire time until they got her into the wheelchair?
He. Wasn't letting her.
Go. And he made sure she was wheeled
around and she couldn't really move either.
Her muscles had atrophied. Yeah, but he wasn't letting her
go. No.
No. I'm just saying I'm.

(01:47:03):
Surprised he going to the upsidedown now.
Look, he's like I'm. I'm he's like, look, this dude
went after one of my best friends.
He don't went after my girl. He don't went after my my other
best friend's sister. Now we got to take him out.
Will is like, I mean, Lucas is like, I'm done.
I'm done. I need a break from.

(01:47:25):
This Vetna dude, we need to killhim so I can go live my happy
little life. You done?
That's how Max, I mean that's how Mike feel right now.
You can see that in his face. But when we get to Mike, we can
we can go ahead and get to Mike now because I mean Matt, Matt, I
mean Max and Lucas, like, like we said, one of the best parts

(01:47:47):
of the season. We already know they're in game.
And I mean, just the fact that even with all of this, they keep
their with, they keep their banter with each other even when
Max is seeing the other characters, like when when Will
finally sees her, she was like, I leave you alone for a second
and you become a source. And he's like, it was a little
bit longer than a second. But you know, just the the

(01:48:10):
banter. She she's still there up until
she finds out what happens to Holly, and then she kind of
feels responsible. But again, you did what you were
supposed to do. How were you supposed to know
that the Upside Down wasn't where Holly was?
You had no idea this other, thisother part even existed.

(01:48:31):
You know, So I understand all these people, they're feeling
guilty about certain things. Or I didn't know this and I
couldn't do this. Y'all are only human right?
Only do what you can do with theinformation you have and now you
have information for them. But we honestly needed to get
you out 'cause your body is physically there.

(01:48:52):
He is trying to harm it. So you have I'm really.
Surprised that he didn't know where she was up until then.
Like how how Something about himdidn't think, OK, let me check
in the hospital. Like he wasn't a threat.
Well, yeah. And he was like at that point,

(01:49:12):
but at that point, she wasn't a threat.
She wasn't doing anything in hismind.
He he probably but. When?
He she took Harley. Yeah, that's messing up his
plan. So she has to die now.
Yeah, Yeah. She has to die.

(01:49:33):
Now so. Beautiful.
It was beautiful. I'm happy we can carry on.
And thank you, Missus. Wheeler for saving their lives.
OK, so before we go on to my, let's talk about Missus Wheeler
because. She's still in the hospital.
When the demo dogs come after. Max.

(01:49:57):
The lights start blinking in thehospital.
She everybody keeps saying, oh, she got up when she heard them
talking. Call Lucas's name on the thing.
No, she was up before then when those lights started flashing,
she sat up in that hospital bed because that's exactly what was
happening in her house. She knew something wasn't right.

(01:50:17):
And then when she hears Robin onthe intercom, Lucas is Robin you
got? A demo coming.
Your way you got. To go, you got to.
Go. She didn't know what a demo was.
She just knew. Robin is on the intercom at the
hospital telling. Lucas to.
Get Max to get a comatose patient and run.

(01:50:41):
We will meet. She may not and she may not know
who Robin is, but she know Lucasis and Max is.
They've been at her house, right?
Lucas is like practically one ofher children, right?
She knows his parents and know that that this their friend is
in the hospital. So she knows that, yes.

(01:51:04):
And and. She probably was just like
lights blinking. Something's after Lucas.
This may be the same thing that was after Holly.
And as as. Much pain as she is in, as weak
as she is in, you know, weakest state she is in.
She gets up, she goes to the door, she sees them oxygen

(01:51:24):
tanks. And I was like, what is she
about to do with the oxygen tank?
I didn't even think about the fact that they went down to the
laundry. I wasn't thinking any of that.
They were in the laundry. You know, they're hiding from
the demo dogs. Robin and Vicki are having a
conversation because Vicki this whole time, once Robin confessed
to her, thinks that Robin is a druggie.

(01:51:44):
They're having their little confession time.
They're about to get discovered by the demo dogs and all of a
sudden you hear the dryer. It's like the hell.
And then you hear the clanking. And I was like, did she put the
oxygen? The demo dogs go over to the
dryer. There's an oxygen tank in the

(01:52:07):
dryer. You get a freeze frame of the
flammable signal symbol on the tank and then they pan over to
the temperature gauge of the dryer.
It's all high. I said, oh, she got to blow some
shit up. And sure enough, the.
Double dogs. They look up, they go.
Right before. The dryer blows up, you have all

(01:52:31):
this smoke robbing in the game. They get up, they're trying to
look and see who this is, and here she comes limping through
all the smoke and it's Miss Wheeler.
I was like, you know what? Four Seasons of almost nothing
and I said almost nothing. She did have some stuff.

(01:52:52):
We did see some dialogue. We saw her being a mom but bad
ass in in the. Behind in the behind the scenes
stuff they show she was really, The actress was really excited
about the scene because she finally got to do something, I'm
sure. And they?
Showed her before she did her entrance she was doing push ups,

(01:53:15):
jumping jacks. She was getting herself hyped up
for It's OK to Be. Barefoot, yeah.
They're like, we could have put on like.
Naked shoes for her so and she'slike, no, she's going to do a
barefoot it. Was kind of.
It was really cool. That makes me happy.
For her, yeah, something. But yeah, but everybody.
Else's parents. Justin Luby's.
Parents, we y'all do it right? But I I want to hear that

(01:53:38):
conversation between her and Joyce when all this is over.
Excuse me? You didn't.
Yeah. Mike, really 'cause you do all
this. My kids were in danger.
And you, you you can't come to my house and say something.
But season 1 when I told y'all that there was monsters in the
wall and everything and my son that y'all said was dead was not

(01:53:59):
dead, y'all called me crazy. So that is true.
Yeah, that is true. That's true.
So she said F y'all but real quick with Miss Wheeler.
But really it's Holly. As someone pointed out, times
that Holly was sensitive to things that were going on.

(01:54:20):
Holly saw as a little kid, she saw the imprints in the wall.
We saw a. She didn't.
She was looking at the wall before it started pushing on the
wall. Oh yeah, I remember.
That. Yeah, Season 1, like, yeah,
'cause it was like doing all that to the wall.
She saw that. No, I'm saying she saw.
She looked at the wall. Yeah, I'm talking about before.

(01:54:41):
It did it. I'm talking.
About even when she was a. Little kid that.
That was when she was a kid. When she was in Will's.
One, she was in Will's bedroom, OK.
Yeah, it's about. I'm done from the beginning.
Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about. Season when she followed the
Christmas lights? Yep.
Yeah, I'm just saying she. Was sensitive to that lights
yeah he. Went to the room, she looked at

(01:55:02):
the wall and then it started pitching through the wall.
So she was licking before it didit right.
She was. Sensitive so and then season 3
I'm saying, hey, season 3 you'resaying she was.
Leaking in the Hey children, let's stop arguing.
Well, no, I'm just saying she saw the things that other people
didn't see. Yeah, and then she saw again the

(01:55:22):
mind flayer. Physically, that's.
Not really it, but it physicallygoing through the woods, heading
to the mall when she's on the Ferris wheel.
Yeah. But she was.
No one else was paying attention.
She was sensitive to that. Just saying she was sensitive.
Yeah, well, what's his name already?

(01:55:43):
Said that he chose kids who had unique abilities already.
Yeah. I'm really.
I'm really on the fence on that one.
Those were his words. Those were his words still.
On the fence. Those are his he's Yeah, he did
say that. But I was also wondering if it
maybe it wasn't, Maybe it's not that they have the abilities,

(01:56:05):
but maybe their minds a little bit open.
Because I'm wondering was because the fact that kids all
call him the same thing, are they all reading A Wrinkle in
Time? Like is that the common thread?
Like all of them are reading that And they're like, I don't
know, because, well, that's hard.
To say because I mean, I'm old when I was in the 1st grade,

(01:56:27):
first or second grade, first grade.
I think we we read The Wrinkle in Time as a class in first
grade. Well, my reading.
Group did. Oh Lord, here we go.
So I'm sorry, my bad that. My reading group was I'm.
Just saying that they're not in first grade, but so they're
looking fine. We'll see by the time I mean at

(01:56:49):
that. Time Wrinkling Time was a book
that people were assigning as reading in school so they could
have read it as a class. They could have or.
His first his first victim was Holly and she was reading it and
he used it. It was easy to use that name

(01:57:11):
good. So it's a possibility of be a
bow, or if they both of them read and half of them did, or if
they just all. Have the shining and y'all just
don't want to admit it. No, I'm OK.
With that, because I always say will was sensitive, quit.
Using that word. Sensitive.
To. Sensitive to it is you sensitive
to. The Shining is a.

(01:57:32):
Whole other No, that doesn't apply to this universe because I
believe that people are sensitive in real life like
that, yeah. Yeah, so sensitive.
You sensitive to things? Neutral term.
Yeah. Why are you so bothered by it?
Right. We're sensitive to you.
I don't know. Sensitive to you?
Yeah, So. He's not sensitive, He's not

(01:58:02):
sensitive. Like the sensitive I'm talking
about, I'm not sensitive and Will is sensitive and he's
sensitive so he both the sensitives.
Clearly, he cries. I see that she is a.
Word that establishes people have abilities.
Because then Elle is sensitive. No, Elle is not.
Sensitive. She actually thinks the ability

(01:58:23):
has powers. She has the power she's gifted.
She's a mutant. I mean there's there's way of
like. Yeah, she is not.
Sensitive at all? No, she's not.
She already has it. But those kids, you're right
there. I'm just going.
Based. On where Henry said no, they're.

(01:58:46):
Sensitive. I don't think they have their
social patches. He just saying it's.
Inside of them. But he also wanted to say
they're gullible. Yes, they weak.
Minded. And they cult.
Followers, I'm and I'm going to say this, those actors.
They did great. They are playing cult fanatics

(01:59:08):
to a team they are and it it is it is.
It is sad because honestly we dohave this in real life, but it
to see the kids like this. And even when there is one or
two in the group who are like, no, this don't sound right.
But you then as a group just bully and threaten them in a way

(01:59:33):
where they're like, I have no way of disagreeing, but a green
to know that something is wrong,but have to go with it to know
that Derek is like in his brain,like this is not right, but I'm
going to die or my family's going to die.

(01:59:53):
And they're looking at me. Like they literally will cook me
alive. Let me tell you something.
And Holly, they just beat the shit out of her.
That little Thomas needs a karate chop to the fucking
throat. How dare you push her down the
stairs? Why?
What does our friend? What does our friend say they
need they they need their butts with?

(02:00:13):
Cat. Cat.
Yes. They need a whooping.
They need a whooping. They do, but.
I don't know if they need a whooping.
They are just so susceptible to things like it doesn't like it
ain't even clicking it don't even click in their brain that
they should not be throwing another child.
OK, and that's what I was going to say.

(02:00:34):
There's a difference the the little girls.
I can't remember that their names right now.
The little girls, they're the ones who are talking to her,
know how the you were mistaken, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's one thing that's being susceptible.
Thomas calling her a bitch and throwing her down the stairs.
That's a whole like he, he is a bully.
He is believing, he is taught, but he is caught up.

(02:00:59):
But at that. Point He thinks she is because
she just beat the mess out of the other two girls.
OK, but there is there are levels to this.
He can be caught up, but the fact that you went that extra
mile, he had that in him before Mr. What's it got to him?
I I don't think so. I think they they just caught
you. Just it brings out things.

(02:01:19):
You know what I'm saying? Like people have killed over
stupid stuff because you caught up in a group and y'all saying
that this is what y'all supposedto do.
The other kids, that's the problem.
They weren't trying to be that violent, not until she she
smacked her best friend in the face with a radio and the other
girl too. She pushes out and then you see
how the three of them beat her up and threw her down the stairs

(02:01:41):
again. If it really Holly did that
first, She did that to the 2 girls now Thomas Shit.
But he but. You what you just said it.
He she did that to the 2 girls to the girls right?
So what? Do you think he's going to do?
He just did that to the 2. Girls a part of the The Clone

(02:02:02):
group, the cluster, whatever we're going to call them.
Thomas had that in him before Vetner got but then you guys say
the other girls do too because the other girl choked her out.
The other girl. Was.
But but The thing is, she wasn'ttrying to choke her.
She was trying to hold her. She just happened to get the
bathroom. No happenstance.
You know, she was choking. They know what they were doing.

(02:02:24):
But this was all in favor of getting to the light, because
they need to get her to understand.
People do some. Come on Hanukkah, you know some
people do some crazy stuff and they're not in him.
Before Wagner got to him, Thomashad that.
You just messed with two people in your group.

(02:02:45):
She attacked 2 people in their group.
Yes, I understand that. And he went after her and called
her name and she beat, she kicked it.
Acting aggressive with even the other kids and with Derek before
hot, before they got to Holly. When, Derek?
When? Derek was coming out of the
woods after after Mr. Whatsit found him.

(02:03:07):
Everybody. Else was.
Asking him where's Mr. Whatsit, whatever, whatever Thomas was
the one who was, who was the most aggressive.
Thomas had that in him before Mr. Whatsit got to him well.
I don't think. I think he would have been more
spirited like Derek, but I don'tthink he was.

(02:03:30):
I think he was just a. Regular kid and that's what the
F up shit is. But they all different because
then you sit here and see kids getting beat up and you still
the people on the side who didn't even do anything, didn't
do anything. Like it's all messed up.
This is messed up and I feel like at this point if the kids
die except for Derek and Holly, I'm good.

(02:03:52):
I don't want the other. Kids to die.
No, I'm just joking everyone. But I don't know how they're
going to save 12 kids. That's going to be difficult.
That's going to be difficult. That's that's what I'm really
saying. I don't know how they're going
to do it. They're going to do it because
they're not going to kill these kids.
But I'm telling you, all I know is if they save the kids, they

(02:04:16):
got to get them some help because these kids going to grow
up and they, they going to believe things that because he's
telling the truth at this point,everybody in Hawkins is going to
need some, some, they're going to need some help.
But they're, they're going to because he's, he absolutely told
the truth. And if Will didn't have the
things he went through and the support he has to overcome.

(02:04:42):
He was weak minded. That's just say it.
Yeah. He's just say it.
He's just say it, but also it's like even looking at the way
that Henry interacts with these kids.
Even if I was a. Child that young.
There is something creepy about this man.

(02:05:03):
The way that he. Speaks the way that he walks,
the way that he kind of just expresses his.
Like Henry is so controlled whenhe talks to the kids.
Nobody is that controlled aroundchildren.
It's weird. And you know, the whole thing
about them being gullible and being susceptible, it's like,

(02:05:27):
what? What's wrong with your parents
that you don't see that something is wrong with this
man? It's just.
I that's what I'm but he's been working.
He's been What's that word? I don't really like that word
ruing them. Yeah, is.
That what you? Yeah.
That's. What I was looking for grooming

(02:05:47):
because and that's what he did. Like this wasn't all of a
sudden. They, you know, 2 days.
Ago, he said. You know, monsters coming like
he was constantly like talking to them and showing them.
Things. And being there three days
because he he started stalking Holly Halloween.
This is November 3rd when she was taken.

(02:06:09):
It's only been three days. So during the whole course of
this is 6 days because when whenthey go, when she and Max go
into her memories to to, you know, follow when Mr. what's it
first saw her? It was Halloween, she said it
was Halloween. We were watching we were
watching movies. She was like, I didn't see him.

(02:06:31):
But that's when they see Henry is standing outside the window
looking at her. It's only been six days, right?
But has it been? Even though that was the.
First they say that could be thefirst memory like you already
know he has scouted out Max the other 3 beforehand and.

(02:06:51):
Then started. To really get into their minds,
like did he comb get his collection and then start going
to really like pay attention to their life to then know the
things that he needed to say. That's what I'm saying.
So like he had a plan. And then once you have a plan,
you know the things that you need to say.

(02:07:12):
Like he knew how to approach Derrick, he knew how to approach
Holly, He knew how to approach the best friends.
Like there's different parts of these kids, you know, Will he
didn't even do that to. They just snatch Will.
But these other. Kids like talking to him.
You got one kid who may be like afraid that they can't make
friends. And he came like, oh, you're

(02:07:32):
such a great friend. I mean, I saw you playing.
What you got? I wish.
I had a friend. Like that, that's still creepy.
And he has that's that's what I'm saying.
And then at no point have we told these kids like you should
not be talking to this grown manwho is not a family friend.
Well then he tells you like, I got a secret, I know, but I got

(02:07:54):
a secret like. Monsters.
Is coming and I'm really worriedabout you and your family and
you have such a special kid. It's like the underlying.
Context of the 70s and 80s was all the kids being kidnapped
like that? Yeah, and.
Take it. Yeah.
And saying something about like,your parents are here and I need

(02:08:15):
to bring you to your parents andkids like, OK, stranger danger.
Was a real thing, like OK. During that time it's just say
it. It is but.
Them kids. It's like I don't I don't but
they took it to another level like they took it to another
level. They did.

(02:08:35):
But also I mean I I really can'tblame the the 2 girls because
Holly did assault them like. Like.
But y'all pushed her down the stairs and then the the
condition she was in at the end when Henry had them all around
the table and did the thing and their eyes rolled in the back of

(02:08:57):
their heads. I I was just like, she couldn't
she she didn't even have any fight in her at that point.
Nope, she didn't. She probably had a good
concussion. She probably had a good
concussion. And that definitely no fight.
No fight. Yeah, but yeah, I, I don't know,
especially now since we know that Holly is in the part of in

(02:09:21):
the dimension they call the abyss.
She's not in the upside down cuzwhen she when she does get out
in her portal she breaks. Herself.
Free. She runs out and she stands
there looking cuz she's like this doesn't look like anything,
Max told me. It looks like this is not hot.
You know, it's not a Upside Downversion of Hawkins.

(02:09:44):
And when she's running, she trips over stone, she sees that
there is a gate. She pulls up the stone and she,
you know, she climbs through thegate.
And of course she's in the Upside Down at this point, but
she's literally Upside down. So when she goes through the
gate, she starts falling throughthe the tube, the the bridge,
the wormhole. She makes it.

(02:10:06):
To Hawkins, right above Hawkins Lab where Nancy and and Jonathan
and all them are. She stops mid air and then she's
yanked back because Vecna at this point has has captured her.
I was, I was just like, Kenny's kids get a break.
Can they get a break? But, you know, he takes Holly

(02:10:29):
back and then we see kind of thefull cavern.
Of of where he has. Them and the Spires that they're
on and all the kids and stuff and it's like, yeah, how are
y'all going to rescue these kids?
Like I, I get. The plan that y'all have?

(02:10:49):
But the plan that. Y'all have is to really like,
yeah, OK, we're going to rescue Holly, we're going to rescue the
kids. I don't even know how y'all are
going to do that at this point. Because once you get.
Up there into the abyss, it's not like you're getting right
where the kids are. You got to go a distance and
then you got to go in this little tree that looks like 3

(02:11:11):
hands jumbled together and this is where he has the kids.
How are you going to get the kids down?
How are you going to transport the kids?
Because Hopper. Made the plan, he.
Was talking about there's a helicopter in the upside down.
We can take it up to the abyss, rescue the kids and come back.
You can't fit 12 kids on a helicopter.

(02:11:31):
Nope. Not with the.
Adults that are also going to have to be on the helicopter
because one person can't go in there and rescue all all them
kids and fight back. Then it's just not going to
happen. Well, wait.
There's military helicopters, some of them you could put 12
kids on it because they take squads of soldiers.

(02:11:55):
So you could you could. Theoretically, get 12 kids on
one of those helicopters. I'm just saying I'd have to.
Look and see he was in Vietnam. He he knows what kind of
helicopter they have, OK. Yeah, you do.
You can do it. They can be done, I mean.
They can't. They don't have to.
Sit. It'd be a little heavy.

(02:12:16):
But first of. All that's why.
I don't know. I can't.
I can't even hit her. Like y'all don't.
Get No, you get, you get like 12kids and they ain't little kids
getting them all together to runthe one spot.
I've been on field trips. This is going to be hell trying

(02:12:38):
to get them out and they're cool.
Like are are you going to be able to convince them to be
different when they? Wake up.
I mean, when they wake up and they see the suction thing in
their mouths, right, they're going to be disoriented.
So then to get them from being disoriented?
Like even to get to the. Tower to climb down the tower,

(02:13:00):
yeah. Or to convince them.
To climb No when they get. To when it comes down, they're
going to be on top of the tower.Like how you want to get. 12
kids down to climb down like their arms and legs in the
reach. Well, they're going to be.
Disoriented because when they look at the tower it's actually
going to be upside down, right but when they when they.

(02:13:22):
Get out of the tower. It's getting down to the ground.
Like even when you watch Steve and Jonathan climb, they're
stretching. Long way to go so.
How the hell? That's what's going through my
brain. Yeah, it's the I can believe
what they're doing. I have faith in their plans.
It's the day on 12 Keys, Steve'splan and Steve's plan, and it's

(02:13:44):
the kids. It's getting the kids because.
Literally you all need. Rope and literally like, let
them. Like.
Tie them and and pull them down because.
They're not going to be able to.Climb down, we going to be
stressed come come Wednesday, wegoing to be stressed watching
this rescue attempt. I mean.

(02:14:06):
The other thing is Elle could probably use her powers to kind
of levitate them. I don't know, but that's still,
that's a lot. Even even with Elle's powers,
she's I don't want to say she's struggling, but it takes a lot
for her. Like even in Volume 2 when she's
trying to. Put Murray.

(02:14:27):
'S truck, right side up. She's struggling.
That's just one thing you. Talk about 12 actual moving
bodies. Yeah, I, I don't know.
We we gonna have to sit here andthink about.
And then she will she will do better then, because she'll be a
motion filled. She wasn't really a motion
filled with the truck. Like, come on, honey, Put some

(02:14:49):
put something in it. But that's still a lot, though,
to ask her to do a 12 kids. Yeah, but you know what?
OK, This is where Kylie can comein handy because she can make
the kids think that something, you know, she could.
She could make them see something serene.
She can make them see something normal so that they will calm

(02:15:11):
down and be like, OK, hey, let'sgo here.
She could. Do that.
So that could kind of help, yeah, but.
Then I got. It by the.
Time they get ready to go, the the abyss may have gone almost
all the way down the tower. Oh yeah, that's what, that's
what. Steve was talking about yeah, so

(02:15:31):
the abyss may have. Gone they was hoping that he.
Wasn't going to go that far downthat they can jump out and hit
the ground. Yeah, that's a little too close.
That's a little close for comfort, but we have been not.
Getting close to the show this. Is true.
That's true. This is true.
The thing? Is it's still going to take time

(02:15:51):
for them to do everything they need to do like Hanukkah said,
but if they can stop. Him it will stop the merge, you
know, because he has to be connected to all the kids.
If she can get to him, it will stop, right?
But still got to. Get ill to the Hawkins Lab.
You're into the thing. And then she got to look for
him. And remember, that's not easy

(02:16:12):
because she already has a hard time trying to find him and he's
in the abyss so. That's what I'm.
Saying is, I think it's going towork out the the the base is
going to be almost all the way down the tower and they can just
jump out into the upside down I,I, I.
I I'm feeling it, I'm just not feeling that well.

(02:16:35):
They're going to be cutting it. Because then they got to get
them from the. Into the.
Right side up and blow the wormhole.
So it's a lot which I'm startingto think that's not going to
happen, but we'll see. Yeah, yeah.
OK, so we're going to move on from the kids because we're

(02:16:55):
running late. We still got a couple of things
we need to talk about. We definitely need to talk about
Henry's memory, the thing that he's scared of.
And we got to talk about Jonathan and Nancy.
So which where where do y'all want to go first?
Because Jonathan and. Nancy, let's go with Jonathan.
And Nancy? I'm glad they have resolved
their relationship issues and I'm glad she.

(02:17:17):
Chose herself, yeah. And Michelle?
Said that right y'all talked about that the last time we
podcast that she's she should choose herself.
She didn't need to be. With Jonathan What?
And they said all the reasons why they said the same reasons
we thought technically speaking though.
Jonathan made the. Decision Jonathan was the one

(02:17:37):
who who basically brought up, look, we're staying together
because we have shared trauma. Nobody else would be able to to
deal with this. Who will we even talk to?
And it just felt safe, right? But she.
Still could have she. They still chose.
They made a decision and she still didn't chose like, OK, let

(02:17:58):
me figure out about. She basically said I don't even
want to see. I like literally don't know what
I want. Yeah, that's again, choosing.
She's choosing herself. Yeah.
And for the people who were concerned.
If you did. Not know that this was a
breakup. I need you to.

(02:18:19):
Evaluate why. No, I need you to seriously ask
yourself questions of why you didn't think this was a breakup
and reflect on that. Yeah.
And understand that you can lovesomeone and not be with him
because it's not right. And so if you need to leave

(02:18:42):
someone that you with right now.Believe them because.
You can still love them. They ain't right for you.
You can leave. Yeah.
And not only that, you. Can break.
Up with somebody and it not be ugly and it not be you know it.

(02:19:04):
It can actually be a beautiful thing.
It can be love and respect thereand also understanding like both
of them realized they were holding on to each other for
familiarity, for comfort becauseof shared trauma.
And also they're they're always together because of all of this.
So it's kind of like, OK, well, why not?

(02:19:26):
But you know what, we can still love each other.
We can still be there for each other.
We can still fight with each other as far as fighting this
whole thing and protect each other and not be together,
right? But I.
Do want to tell people though, OK, don't try to stay home.
They did this because they thought.

(02:19:47):
They would die so it sound out. It sounded nice.
So if you do do this, you do this with a certified therapist
in the room. Because when y'all start
sprouting out things you don't like or things you did.
It is different. I think it when you not die, I
think it depends on the people because there are people.

(02:20:09):
No, it does, but you can have that conversation, but that
takes that takes some years to get to.
I'm just saying Hanukkah for some people don't just start
sprouting out that you you took the the boys PS-5 and pretend
like you just spill water on it when you really did.
You can't come out and say things like that.
OK, all right. You cannot come out and say you

(02:20:32):
took took a MK purse, a Coach purse, the Goodwill 'cause you
didn't like I just said, I don'tknow what happened to.
I think you left it in the rental car that we had when we
went on vacation. You can't do that.
It only works when y'all are both are open.
Yeah. And ready to receive.

(02:20:53):
Yeah. You know, that's finding words.
Someone tell you they don't likecorn Hanukkah.
For you. That was good, right?
So. We got to be open to receive.

(02:21:13):
That we were on. Different paths because they
were coming at each other, but it was in love.
But you know, I think the other thing that is important for that
relationship is they were friends first.
And I think that has a lot to dowith because a lot of.

(02:21:36):
Excuse me a lot. Of times these days when people.
Go out. With the intention of meeting
somebody. It's not I'm going to meet
somebody to be a friend. And then it develops into a
relationship. A lot of people go out looking
for a man looking for a woman looking for a relationship.
You know what I'm saying? And, and if you don't have that

(02:21:58):
strong friendship foundation, itwill make things like this a lot
harder when things start fallingapart.
You know, Nancy and Jonathan handled this in a very, very
mature way and in a way that I don't think.
I mean, I mean, if you think about it, think about the way
she broke up with Steve, that was very ugly.

(02:22:20):
It was very well she was drunk. But you know it.
Was it was one of those breakupsthat was not pretty, It was not
respectful. And, you know, it just.
Yeah, I think because she and Jonathan started out as friends
first, or at least that's how wewe see the relationship start

(02:22:43):
because when we are introduced to Nancy and Steve, they're
already in a relationship. So we don't know how things work
with them. But we also know that they came
in, Nancy was dealing with stuff, Steve was dealing with
stuff, and Steve? Didn't.
Really know what Nancy was dealing with, you know what I'm
saying? So that friendship was not
really there in that sense. That's how I feel.

(02:23:05):
Because if that was her friend, she should have been able to
confide to him with some of the stuff that she was going on that
was going on. But that's, you know, again,
that was a younger version. That was, you know, young puppy
love. A lot of times they don't do
that type of thing. Jonathan and Nancy, I think, are
a little more established. And they were able to have that

(02:23:26):
conversation because of that foundation.
And they're older. They're older now because they
had a rocky beginning, just likeher and Steve had a rocky
beginning. But see, we don't know what kind
of beginning her and Steve had because they were already a
couple when we met them. Somewhat somewhat they were
starting to she really liked himand he liked her and they were

(02:23:49):
getting getting in close and Barb kind of pushed things to a
different level. And we saw how Jonathan came in
the picture. He was literally, I'm so sorry.
We tend to forget that Jonathan was stalking her, you know, but
he was shy. OK, we.
Don't play that. Yeah, but he was.

(02:24:11):
Stalking her we did. We want to forget again that he
was taking pictures of her undressing.
But that's neither here nor there.
He's a photographer. So but I.
Think it's just been time. It's just been time.
And then even how they even got together was in the midst of
Steve and her having a break. OK, Nancy and Steve was on the

(02:24:33):
break, so Nancy cheated on Steve, but that's another day
and time. They were on the break.
They were on the break though. Well, depending on who breaking
it. Depends.
On how? The break was a break, but
someone doesn't know that it's abreak.
That goes with Brick, she goes. Up with him, but he thinking,

(02:24:57):
but then the next day you left town with a boy and slept with
him. But that's neither here nor
there. We're not going back into the
past. Everyone has their things within
their relationship and what got them there.
But I'm just glad they came to aconclusion that this is not
going to work. And then when I'm really right.
But I'm concerned though, in their conversation nasty to go

(02:25:22):
to a a meetings and then Jonathan, you got to come up
with some other than weed. Jonathan.
Has probably been off the weed because going.
Through all. Of this, especially the stuff in
Lenoir, first of all, you're probably cut off from your your
your supplier. You definitely aren't.

(02:25:43):
I mean, this also goes well. You're not going to get sunny
delight though, but you not now that she threw away.
But come on now, 18 months in quarantine ain't no weed coming
into the town. You don't have to have weed
coming into town. Daddy was getting it.
From the boy who was probably growing it in his backyard

(02:26:03):
because he lives in a nice home 18 months with the military
presence there. You can still grow it.
You. Yes, it is weed.
You just they smoked weed. They smoked it all up in the
first three months. Michelle, come on now.
You know people are growing weed.
You are you know they growing weed.
They live some of them live on farmland.

(02:26:24):
The government is looking for 11.
And back now that's. Probably why they got.
That's probably why why they gotrid of the police.
There are some soldiers who are going to the local high school
for some some side pieces. You know that.
You, I mean, I smoke that side, you know.

(02:26:47):
Three months, that's. A whole different, I mean a
whole different 4. That's a.
Whole different. Conversation, but OK.
But seriously. Like honestly, they live in a a
a town. You know that somebody is
growing. I'm just saying they're grown.
But when she see but they're. Still.
Not you believe me they can't leave they got a military

(02:27:07):
presence the town has been splitinto two half the people died
believe me they smoked all that stuff up in the 1st and they
still smoking because at this point we mixing shit up we.
Growing it. And we add in oregano and all
that kind of stuff because they have nothing to do.
I know that some. People, I don't really know this

(02:27:29):
so so you know, FBI just saying,I know some people was growing
some stuff during COVID. I'm just saying I don't know for
sure. I don't know for real.
I'm just imagining that people got bored and beside making
sourdough, they were making stuff.
There were still supply lines going.
There were still, people were still, and then some people
still have some stuff. Nowhere in Hawk except for

(02:27:50):
Hawkins. They believe me that I.
Smoked all that stuff up and they're growing more.
I'm telling you, they are growing more.
Come on those. Things got.
Nothing to do but sled down the middle.
Sidewalk. And smoke at the same time, OK.
I'm sorry. OK, but it's just sad though,

(02:28:11):
because they both realized that because of the stuff they're
going through, he's getting highand she's getting drunk and I
hate that. I just hate that for Nancy
because. She's acceptable to it.
Because her mom does it. So I just need her to, I mean,
really it is, you know, so I just really need her to.

(02:28:32):
Then moving forward, they need to get help with that because
they're still going to get drunkand high.
They just need to get some help.OK.
It just didn't mix with them together being drunk and high at
the same time. No.
OK, So what was the? Other other thing Veglar's
memory. Vector's memories.
Yes. Hold on before you get.

(02:28:53):
That deep with Vector's memories, we do Robin real
quick. I'm just glad that.
Everything has come out in the open for Robin.
And what's the name? Molly Greenwald.
Vicki. Vicki that Vicki now doesn't,
you know, believe that she's nota a druggie.

(02:29:14):
So now I'm worried about Vicki. Not worry about Vicki.
Vicki's hanging out with, she's taking care of Max.
She's. Taking care of Max.
She changed Max. Into an outfit she.
Put in some. Got it.
Out of that stupid hospital gown, Yeah.
And she's. She's working with her on
physical therapy when she told her if we.

(02:29:37):
Make it out. Of this alive.
We are going to Enzo's and we'regoing to get dessert.
That made me worried some somebody's not going to make it
to Enzo's and somebody's not getting dessert.
I don't know. Well, Enzo's going to be blown
up, but I don't know because she's she's not going to be part
of danger. She's sitting, she's literally
sitting with Max and she really is taking care of Max.

(02:29:58):
But I don't think. Robin is not going to tell me
you think that they're safe justbecause they're not in the
Upside Down. No but I'm just saying after Max
just had demo dogs being sent after her I think they're more
I'm worried more about the military shooting them.
OK, that part. That part I'm more be worried

(02:30:20):
about the military and them the men them into the action.
But no, I think the military is going to be more of a problem
for the ones who are going into the upside down because I think
both acres knows that 11 is downthere and now General K also
knows that it right and they're going to go to the science lab

(02:30:44):
too in both places. So I do like everyone has an
issue with the military, but I do believe that Robin will live
and I think she's just going to go off and just have a bright
future. As a get in.
Different relationships, radio DJ somewhere else.

(02:31:06):
OK, so yeah, we can now get intoVEGNA and how what's?
Going to happen, OK. So.
I have a feeling. Again, I mentioned it earlier
about them trying to trying. To bring back Vechner.

(02:31:29):
'S humanity or whatever. I think the memory that we saw
is probably going to be key to that because the memory that we
saw, the thing that's making himscared to go into The Cave,
Holly discovers a shaft, basically, and it leads to an
underground mine. And while they're in this

(02:31:52):
memory, there is a guy down there.
He's holding a suitcase, a silver suitcase.
And he starts panicking. Who are you?
Why are you here? Who sent you?
Who sent you? Who sent you?
And we see that it is a young Henry Creel.
He's in his Boy Scout uniform. He's like, hey, I live near
here. I saw, you know, I heard someone

(02:32:15):
fall down here. I'm just coming to check to see
if you all right now, this man is so freaked out by whoever it
is that's coming after him that he pulls a gun on this little
kid and Henry in this and we can't be more than maybe 8 or 9
himself. He's.
Just trying to help. The man.
Sir, please don't. Shoot, I'm just trying to help

(02:32:36):
you. Are you OK?
Because the man is very clearly hurt.
Holding on to the. Suitcase.
He shoots at Henry and shoots him I think in the hand.
Did he shoot? Him in the hand or.
Shoot in the hand, OK in the shoots at Henry.
Henry is looking at his. Hair like this motherfucker just

(02:32:57):
shot me. And as the.
Guy is trying to put another bullet in the go.
I don't know what kind of gun you had that you got one shot
off and you that that was all you had.
But Henry goes to him, wrestles the gun away from him, and then
he grabs a rock. He hits the guy and he's so

(02:33:18):
upset that this man shot at him that he literally bashes this
man's head in. I mean.
I'm sorry, I don't know. What the Boy Scouts been
teaching y'all? You sure?
Because I. Don't know.
No, but I mean, you're a 8 year old kid, 9 year old kid.
You're trying to help somebody and they shoot you.

(02:33:40):
Yeah. He probably.
Just he was angry, he was upset,he was emotional, he was all
these things. He's a little kid he doesn't
know how to deal with with what he just encountered.
Well, you don't want them to. Shoot you again.
That too. That too, but then.
As as Holly is watching this memory Henry.

(02:34:02):
Goes to. Open up the suitcase and right
before he opens it up and we seewhat's in it, Max kind of pulls
Holly out of the vision so they can escape.
So 1. What do you think was in the
suitcase? And two, do you think it was the
act of murder that Henry is scared of, or do you think

(02:34:25):
what's in the suitcase caused whatever?
Whatever it. Is the cause of Henry having the
abilities that he had. So we have to ask you, what do
you think? I'm assuming this.
Has something to do with the first shadow.

(02:34:46):
OK, it does. So what do you what?
So now this is great. What do you think?
I really think it has. And we're not going to say yes
or no, but and then we'll say yes or no and see how it
compares to. But what do you think?
I think whatever that guy had inthe suitcase.

(02:35:06):
I don't know, I'm starting to. Think he probably stole it from
the lab. I'm thinking it was something
that probably affected Henry, gave him the abilities that he
had as far as like, you know, what he was able to do with his
parents, to his parents and to his sister.
But also I wonder if it has to do with the mind flayer and his

(02:35:28):
fascination with the what was the spiders that he was keeping
in jars? When he was a little kid.
So I'm wondering if all of that is connected, because if you
look at the mind Flayer, the mind flayer looks like a kind of
spider. And we had a.
Fascination with spiders that hefound in the house when they
moved in. We know that he was doing things

(02:35:50):
with his mind. I don't think that he was doing
that stuff when he went to find that guy, because if he did, he
wouldn't have had to bash that guy's brains in.
If that guy shot him, he could have just held his hand out and
killed the guy right then. So I think whatever caused Henry
to be what Henry came started inthat cave.

(02:36:14):
So some. Type of trauma happened that
that's why he's afraid of going in that cave.
I and yeah, I, I would say trauma or just whatever was in
the case that altered him, you know, but I think that will
probably also be the key to themnot necessarily fixing him, but

(02:36:37):
maybe stripping away his powers,maybe turning him back human
completely and then will also bethe key to destroying him.
OK, but. Yeah, I I was a little bit
disturbed about the fact that a 8 year old just sat there and
bashed that grown man Hit, hit it again.

(02:36:59):
I can understand. This man just shot me.
I was trying to help him. Even Holly was like, why did
that man hurt him? Or he was just trying to help
him, you know? And I, I think that's going to
be a big part of whatever happens with his character in
the final episode. So.
And again, I don't. Know anything about the first

(02:37:20):
Shadow? I don't know anything about
Henry Creel's back story other than what we've seen in the TV
show, but I just thought that that was very, again, you, you.
Kind of put a. Breadcrumb out there and then
you snatch it away, right? And really makes me think that
that that little piece of thing is important.
Not the killing part, but whatever.

(02:37:41):
But what happened when the key was attempting to open up the
case and and you're absolutely right, because if he at that
point, you know, he's younger. So if he had powers, then he
would have used his power. So clearly he didn't have
powers. And that's I'm sorry, that's a
little traumatic that the the man shot him in the hand.

(02:38:03):
So but it has to be something even worse.
And she don't even want to go into The Cave.
But we won't know until Wednesday.
Hopefully we do. Now what I find interesting and
it it like it's so disgusting, though, to me is that vector
like has now turned into like you see teeth and then like what

(02:38:28):
he has the kids in, you see a whole lot of teeth and then like
there's a heartbeat above him. So I'm like, is that the mind
flare? Like what is that?
Because that's so organic, like it's bones and teeth and skin
and then a heart. That's not vector's.
Heart. Yeah, no.

(02:38:48):
Because it makes me think of when I see that, that heart so
big, it makes me think of that movie we used to watch all the
time ago about the dragon. Is it dragon?
Heart Dragon? Heart.
Yeah, like. There has to be something and
then it looks like on the. Outside.
It looks like several hands kindof together.
Yeah. Or like it looks like a spider.

(02:39:11):
A dead spider. Yeah, Yeah.
So I'm just wondering what what that is is.
That the mind. Flayer like, but we haven't seen
the Mind Flayer at all this season.
But we didn't see it in Season 4, did we?
No, no, I don't know. But we haven't really.
We. Haven't seen a version of it

(02:39:32):
since the the. It was disgusting.
We caught the physical. One that was start to work.
Got it was disgusting. And that had like the teeth
things too, Like it was just, itwas disgusting.
Yeah. So the other question I have, so
I've seen there are two theoriesI want to get your thoughts on
real quick before we wrap it up.I I know there's probably more

(02:39:54):
stuff we need to talk about, butyeah, a.
Lot. But I saw one theory that says
that Henry Creel may actually be11's biological father.
Meaning that. Brenner used Henry to impregnate

(02:40:18):
the women or whatever instead ofit being the blood transfusion
thing, that he may actually be the 11th biological father and
that's why she's the closest to him as far as his powers and,
and you know what she can do. What do you think about that?

(02:40:39):
I think we've had enough theories.
No. No, enough of the.
I don't. I'm just going to say the abuse
of Will and all the things that has happened to him that Vacna
has done, I don't, I don't know if I really want to think about

(02:41:01):
something like that happening tothose, those women in that way,
especially Elle's mom, that Doctor Brown would, you know, I
don't, it's not outside the realm of possibility.
It's just. I would prefer that not to be
the case. Because we.
We. Have enough?
We have enough. Abuse going on.

(02:41:24):
As it is, yeah, I didn't even think about.
It that way this is. I didn't think.
About it as in it's a lot you added more to but I I was going,
I was OK with it just being. 11's.
Mom and then they did the blood on all the other women while
pregnant. But hearing Anthony said, I'm

(02:41:47):
like, no, OK, I'm going to leavethat theory alone because that
is a little bit more extreme. That's.
And I wasn't even thinking of like and them not actually being
together. It's like, you get it, You you
already took advantage of Henry.And I'm saying like you took
advantage of them because, yes, he's powerful, but you put a

(02:42:07):
block on them and then you make him help you with these kids
that you produce from him. Yeah.
So then to also. Take his sperm.
That just seems to be it's a lot.
Yeah. And see I.
Wasn't even thinking about it inthe sense that Anthony was
thinking about it, but it's like, we've been told that this

(02:42:28):
was a military program, that these women who came into this
program, they volunteered, remember, because they were
promised certain things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I wasn't thinking of it in like an abuse situation like
these women probably agree, OK, yes, I'll I'll do this program,

(02:42:48):
I'll get pregnant, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But that still would be. Abuse.
On Henry's part. So yeah, that OK that that would
that. Would be a little.
More disturbing, and that. I don't know if they.
Would want to paint Brenner as Oh well, you know what?

(02:43:15):
Because I was going to say maybeit.
Wasn't Brenner, maybe it was Doctor K, and that's why Doctor
K knows about the program but wasn't with Brenner.
Maybe that was the line that Brenner was like, no, maybe he
found out she did that with Henry and Terry eyes and he was
like, you got to go, we're not doing this, blah, blah blah blah
blah. Because we still don't know.

(02:43:37):
The extent of Doctor K's involvement with Doctor Brenner,
Right? And she knows enough to know how
to duplicate his program, right.And I'm.
I'm thinking, and I really don'tknow.
And I don't know if this is related to anything else.
Like I'm thinking she's actuallyfrom the origin.
The. Never mind what?

(02:43:58):
The original program. Yeah.
Well, someone did say. MK like will be Martin and Kate
and like. Brenner was.
Like maybe one of their studentsand he branched off and did that
and then she then. Saw what he was.
Doing and that's why she's trying to find the the kids that

(02:44:20):
was left over to do what he did,but.
Then what she. Had in mind was something
totally different and he went off and did his own thing and
he's like oh OK well that's we can use that now I don't know OK
all right. The and they had to know each
other. Yeah.

(02:44:40):
Absolutely. When they say.
MK Ultra there was Martin, but when did we get MK?
Ultra from. When that was the program.
Right. Yeah.
When? Robin.
And which we call going through the microfichs.
Yeah, so she. Yeah, so.
She's. She's I mean, she's the the, the

(02:45:01):
OG. And well, I think they they.
Did they started? They probably started it.
Together. Yeah.
That's why I'm saying they probably started it together,
you know, a scientist and. She was a military scientist and
they. They assigned.
To him or working together, yeah, but he went off.
And did his own shit. That's what I'm trying to say.
Like he no, I'm saying she probably was the one who went

(02:45:23):
off like. She was the one.
If, if this whole Henry Creole is Elle's biological father
thing is true, if, if that turnsout to be something I'm saying,
I don't think Brenner would havedone that because again, Brenner
formed a bond with the children that he that he was under him.

(02:45:45):
I don't think he would have violated them in that way
because he did look at them as like his children.
But he was there when. But he was there from the
beginning. Listen to what I'm saying.
I'm saying we're saying both of them were there from the
beginning. They were partners.
No, I'm saying beginning. OK, never mind.

(02:46:06):
I'm saying before the kids and before Henry begin, but Henry
was the start of the program. That's why he's. #1 Henry was
part of the program. No, we talk about it next week.
OK, OK. And and.

(02:46:28):
And, and the other thing is you can just look at it and say,
well, she's looking at military applications.
He's in it just for the science.Yeah.
So. Basically whoever was with the
suitcase of the guy in The Cave time, which is before OK, OK, so

(02:46:50):
whatever that is, I don't know what that is.
OK, so that's something that's coming from some research or
something. Something is happening.
I see what you're saying. I'm saying I'm saying from that
beginning. OK, OK, You know when they may
have just ideas And then and then Henry comes along and
you're like, oh shit. I'm just saying they reason.
Why they weren't really togetherwhen by the time we get into the

(02:47:12):
story is she's doing military applications of whatever they're
doing and he's just, he went offand did something.
Yeah, because then he starts researching the wormhole.
So like he was, he was on his own stuff.
And now she's trying. To replicate that and it's not

(02:47:34):
working. I don't even.
I don't even know it. Was she really trying to
replicate it? Yeah, he's trying to.
Continue in. The program she was already
doing. We don't know we.
Don't know what time they split up.
That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah.
When they split, they split before he start doing creating,

(02:47:54):
you know, numbers or did they split up in the midst of
creating? She was.
She was probably. His boss and when he died that
was when she's like let me go find out what the hell is going
on. Then she finds out about Cali
being around. Boom, we can do this program all

(02:48:15):
over again. Start it back up OK and.
See, he seems like he had no interest in Cali, no?
He did not. But that's what I think.
There's a reason why. Like because 11 is perfect.
Vessel, I mean 11 is. And that's why it's not working
now with these pregnant women. I feel sorry because they about
to collapse the wormhole and there's a bunch of pregnant

(02:48:37):
women who are dying anyway. But that's sad.
You're not thinking that part because they're not going to
save them. Yeah, but they're dying.
But they're dying already anyway.
Yeah. Yeah.
The other theory real quick is Iheard someone say that Cali may
be the mind flayer. And I was thinking.

(02:48:59):
About that, I was like, I don't know if I feel like that's the
case, but thinking about it again.
You know, they keep saying. That there is another big bad
that's that's actually the the ultimate villain in this show
and it's not Vecna. It could be Callie.
That could be why she's trying to convince Elle to do such such

(02:49:23):
I did. She could be the one that's
actually controlling Henry or. As she calls.
Them, their brother, their brother, like everyone is like,
we don't call him her brother. He's passed that part.
I just saw that too. I saw that because someone
posted like what her name means with the tattoo on her neck

(02:49:47):
means and I'm like and then theyput that her episode.
Was it all in front of the episode the the mine flare
episode? Oh.
Like it was her episode. And then the next episode was
the mine Flare episode. OK, OK, so I was like, and then

(02:50:09):
you know her name is like, you know the.
The. Dark Mother.
Earth or. Something like that.
Well, she's a. Polly is a Hindu.
Goddess, yes, and I think she's.I just saw.
Her, her, she's like the goddessof like, I think chaos and

(02:50:33):
destruction, so which they called the abyss.
Yeah, so. Yeah, I.
I. Think she's probably.
OK, so. But I mean, but we didn't trust
her anyway, so if she. Is the.
Big, big, bad. Then that would kind of fall in
line. And that just mean that, yeah,

(02:50:54):
yeah, 'cause she's like, it's called the black.
She's the black Mother Earth anda home plane is the abyss.
Hey y'all, she's. Chaotic Evil.
Her alignment is Chaotic evil. Chaos charm combat.
I don't know. I don't.

(02:51:17):
Know if we're stretching? It and again they're showing
pictures of her Nosebleed is nowthe opposite of what it was.
I don't know. Yeah.
I mean, right now we pulling their straws.
Not I mean some. Are reasonable straws.
Yeah, it's reasonable that she ain't who she says she is, not

(02:51:38):
outside the room. Of it's not.
It's not, but it's not. But like they said that they
have calmed the Internet too andno one has actually.
Put down they. Say it, would they the brothers?
They that no one. Has actually, you know.

(02:51:59):
Guessed it guessed. Guessed right correctly, so I
don't know. But that was like a couple.
Weeks ago. Who knows now, right?
Well, I. Mean we had all our.
Minds less than 48 hours to findout.
This is more time. To for Michelle to watch it

(02:52:19):
again. I'm not I'm.
Done. I, I am.
I'm going to watch it probably one more time.
I'm probably going to watch on scene one more time.
I don't know if I'm going to. I'm done.
I'm. Done.
Yeah. I don't know if I'm going to do
any YouTube dies or TikTok dies.I kind of want to just kind of
see what I can gather on my own and then.

(02:52:43):
You. Know and then go from there
because there are a lot of theories out there floating
around. I've tried to stay away from
most of them. Some of them, you know, you
can't watch it too, because in the videos they refer to the
play. So then you don't need to watch
anything because they will referto the play.
Yeah. And I don't want, I don't want

(02:53:04):
to, I don't want to take that into consideration yet.
So. You guys have anything else?
You want to talk about for volume to, I know we've been
talking a long time, but we it, it was a lot to go through.
And this is one thing I do want to say for those of y'all who
were saying Volume 2 was boring,what show were y'all watching?

(02:53:28):
Don't know and. That that it wasn't like because
here's here's what I here's my argument and y'all can get me in
the comments section. When people talk.
About volume 1 was was better. What is the one?
Thing. There's only one thing people
talk about from volume one. What is that?

(02:53:49):
What is it? We'll, we'll be in the one
thing. Yeah, you're not even.
Looking at everything else, episode 1234, you're just like,
oh, will the sorcerer. So yes, that was great, you
know, but 5. 6 and. 7's not trying to compete with that

(02:54:10):
right, That one part. So everyone's holding up the he
was the sorcerer and you're forgetting about everything that
happened in 1234 and. Comparing. 567 to the one
moment, yeah. Which?
Was fantastic when you got we heard another characters that
you need to close out there, right?
And we're closing. We're coming to the end like

(02:54:33):
this wasn't about battles and plans.
It has always been about these characters and what they're
going through, right? And we're getting closure.
We're getting conversations thatwe were hoping for for seasons.
We're getting it. So yeah, I have a problem with
people saying right, you know what I'm saying?

(02:54:54):
Yeah. Do I wish it was longer
episodes? Yes.
Give me. Season.
Four me episodes, right? Only because it's the end and I
want more. But it's fitting now.
I don't know if I can watch episodes one through 7.
I can make it work while I'm working tomorrow.

(02:55:15):
I can watch episodes one through7.
So Anthony, you're gonna have towatch them one more time before
Wednesday. Sorry for episode 1.
Anthony, you have any final thoughts on Volume 2?
No. I liked it.
It was good. I do like the idea of it being
very similar to my Mass Effect game where we have the missions

(02:55:38):
where everyone gets their heads clear before going into the
final battle. OK.
You know. And but again, I don't think
anyone's going to die other thanKali.
I think Kali is marked for deathso.
You don't think that one? Is going to die.
Or Henry. Or.

(02:55:58):
One or well, I think this. Mr. What?
I think this up in the air, OK, Because there's a lot of things
they can do with this character that that would make sense, and
some of them don't involve death, OK.
Because I do like the idea. That, you know, going back to

(02:56:20):
the Hill Fire Club's campaign where destiny gets roll a 20 and
here we have a 28 one and 11. That that would be.
They need to defeat. The the my flare.
Oh, where? Where he?
Where he? Where he?
What? Oh.
You hadn't heard that? Yeah.

(02:56:41):
Yeah, because remember. Destin, not Destin.
Erica rolled 20. Yes.
So they can win, I just. What you just.
Said and Will did Season 1 and Will.
Did season one too OK, but what you just.
Said about there being a 8:00 or1:00 and 11:00 I never.
Yeah, someone said. The 8111 needs to to end it all.

(02:57:04):
Wow. Unless will.
Is the new one. But we'll see.
Yeah. We'll see, but we have less than
41. He's the one.
He's the one. He's the one we have less than
48 hours till we. Get to the.
End of Stranger Things and we are all going to the movie

(02:57:26):
theaters to see it at 8:00 on Wednesday, or the three of us, I
should say. We're going to see it.
We will probably hang out afterwards, maybe do a little
bit of a live before we actuallyrecord our final thoughts.
But yeah, I guess for now, that's it for a show.

(02:57:47):
You can find us online. At www.phantomhybrid.com, we are
on social media, on all the social media.
At Phantom Hybrid, you can chat with us on our Discord channel,
you can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can
listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms.
Thanks for listening. We hope you join the
conversation next time. Music.

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