October 9, 2025 • 38 mins
What makes someone stick with a team through losing seasons, changing conferences, and shifting media deals? We dig into the core of modern fandom with Clinical Assistant Professor of Sport Management at the University of Michigan and co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor, Mike Lorenc, tracing how identity, access, and economics shape the way people fall in love with sports—and stay there. From the evergreen pull of a never‑ending story to the way leagues actually make money, we break down what sets sports apart from other live entertainment and why that matters for anyone trying to grow an audience.
We look closely at the new entry points for young fans: NFL‑backed flag football, the Olympic spotlight, and even video games that teach the language of a sport before a kid ever picks a favorite team. On campus, we face the squeeze of Name, Image, and Likeness, the transfer portal, and realignment eroding century‑old rituals, while student attention fragments into songs, FOMO, and social moments. At the same time, minor league clubs prove that intimacy and affordability still convert, especially when access to players turns a random night into a forever memory. And ticketing? It’s not a transaction—it’s the start of a relationship that begins at search, continues through smart, timely guidance to the right gate, and lives on with personalized keepsakes.
We also confront hard trade-offs: empty VIP seats that look great in revenue reports but dead on camera, versus supporter sections that power atmosphere and future demand. Along the way, Mike shares two truths leaders forget: fans choose us, and executives should buy and use their own tickets to feel the friction fans feel.
If this conversation gets you thinking about your own fan journey and how to grow the next one, tap follow, share with a colleague who needs to hear it, and leave a review to help more people find the show.
Recorded Thursday, October 9th, 2025
Hosts: Damian Bazadona, CEO & Founder, Situation & Maureen Andersen, President & CEO, INTIX
Guest: Michal Lorenc, Clinical Assistant Professor of Sport Management at the University of Michigan, Co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor
Producer: Peter Yagecic, Innovation Advisor, Situation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Yagecic (00:04):
You're listening to Fandom Unpacked from
Situation and INTIX, the podcastseries where we unpack modern
fandom with some of thebrightest minds in sports and
entertainment.
I'm producer Peter Yagecic andjoining me for today's QA are
Situation CEO and founder DamianBazadana and President and CEO
of Intex, Maureen Andersen.
Our guest today is Mike Lorenc,Clinical Assistant Professor of
(00:26):
Sport Management at theUniversity of Michigan and
co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor.
Here's Damian to kick us off.
Damian Bazadona (00:34):
Mike, thanks for doing this again.
Always good to see you.
How um let's talk about in theaudience today, there's a range
of live event experience folksthat cover all realms of fandom.
So from sports, but alsoculture, attractions, arts, you
name it.
(00:54):
Wide range of folks here.
How do you think about, andyou've worked across your life
in Google and other universes,you and I, we've collaborated
over the years across alldifferent facets of live
entertainment.
How do you see sports fandom?
What's different about sportsfandom?
Or overlapping, I suppose, withsome of those segments, but
what's what's different aboutit?
Michal Lorenc (01:12):
Yeah, so one thing I'll start is, and that's
something I talk to my studentsa lot.
So a lot of my students aresport management students.
Uh I think it's reallyimportant for all of us to keep
in mind that we're we're talkingto people that are seeking
entertainment.
So whether it's sports,performing arts, music, theater,
it's it's it's a form ofentertainment.
So that's what thoseindividuals have in common.
They're they're seeking out away to spend some of their free
(01:35):
time and hopefully some of thedollars to be entertained, to be
inspired, to uh be in some typeof a communal environment.
Uh so that's the similarity.
Probably the biggest differencewhen you think about sports
fan, the definition of fanactually comes from fanatic.
It's somebody that's more of anevergreen.
I am a fan of Chicago Cubs, notjust right now, but for a long
(02:00):
time, whether they win or lose.
So I think you have more of alongevity.
Somebody can develop the fandomfrom early childhood and then
kind of carry it on throughout.
So, you know, from the businessperspective, the lifetime value
uh equation for a sports fanwould probably be higher than
somebody of uh of theater oreven music because of the
frequency of activities thatthey can go to and then the
(02:23):
impact that can have.
I think that's one bigdifference.
Another one is just the waythat sports, especially
professional sports, make money,is very different than most
other forms of entertainment.
So, you know, they have more ofa mix of revenue sources.
It's not just ticketing.
For many of them, actually,ticketing is a small part of
overall revenue mix.
(02:44):
They have sponsorships, theyhave merchandising, they have
concessions, they also havemedia rights.
So that's kind of like a verydifferent equation.
And sometimes it's comparingapples to oranges when you think
about the economics of concertor performing gods venue versus
a sports team or sports league.
Damian Bazadona (03:00):
Yeah, no, no, I agree.
I think the touch points arejust significantly different.
And I also feel like all forms,all forms of most experiential
properties come back tostorytelling of some version.
And the sports teams, I'm aGiants fan, it's a never-ending
story, right?
And right now we're in probablynot the chapters you want to
skip, but I've been in part ofchapters in which they're
winning.
Um, and you know, I find thecommonality is just like it
(03:22):
comes down to storytelling, whatattracts people to a lot of
these things.
But it's staying on that, Iwant to talk about growth.
Um, I kind of want to just jumpright into that topic because I
think it's a big one about kindof growth of fan communities.
And I think in the sportssphere, a lot of it is really
how you were brought up.
Is that a significant part ofit, not all of it, what you were
introduced to, right?
Of how you come into something,whether you were brought up
around a football family or abasketball, whatever that might
(03:44):
be.
Yeah.
Um, how do brands, and I thinkthis has been a challenge both
for established brands,established leagues, but also
startup leagues, about building,like, how do you either accept
this and go at people who have ahigh likelihood, or how do you
grow your audiences?
I you I look at what the NFLhas done.
I think what the NFL is doingwith flag football is actually
kind of unbelievable.
(04:05):
Where the idea of taking flagfootball, introducing it to
young women effectively, reallyin high school, installing all
these leagues.
So now there's tackle and thenthere's flag football side by
side as a way to grow theaudience.
I think the other, I'm a biginto sort of flag football for
my boys, but I think one of thebig asterisk of that is they
stop it at NFL does not sanctionit after eighth grade by
design.
And so they've made thesethings like, oh, boys do tackle
(04:28):
football, girls do flagfootball, like the way they're
structuring it.
But it's all about audiencedevelopment in their mind.
You could clearly see it.
Tell me, what are you seeing inthat space?
Yeah.
It's that, or what do you whatdo you hear and what do you see?
Michal Lorenc (04:39):
That that's so when it comes to sports, that's
probably one of the biggestchallenges and or opportunities.
Uh, how do you develop theyoung fans?
Uh so on one hand, when youlook at the the viewership of
professional sports, especiallyon broadcast TV, it's actually
very old.
All of the sports are over 45.
Baseball, football are over 50,almost over 55.
Wait, which is which isworrisome, you know, from the
(05:00):
advertiser perspective, from youknow, all of the other aspects.
On the other hand, only about30% or even less of young
audiences under 25 actuallywatch full games live.
They that they live in a in ahighlights and short-form video
kind of environment.
So sitting two or three hoursof watching a game is really,
(05:20):
really hard.
Uh now, yes, Debian, you'reright.
Historically, we became fans oftypically our local sports
because the media coverage waslimited or was much deeper on
the local level.
Or we became fans of the teamsor brands that people close to
us, our parents, grandparents,our friends, uh introduced us
to.
Maybe somebody received aDallas Cowboys jersey when they
(05:43):
were eight years old, and theystarted developing that type of
fandom.
So that was kind of thetraditional way, which was very
tribal and very local from itsaspect.
With internet, with technology,uh, that has changed
dramatically.
So right now, I am not bound bygeography.
I can pick and choose the team,but also the athlete that I
(06:04):
care deeply about.
And I start I can startdeveloping those relationships
very early on.
Now, what's really interestingis yes, you what you mentioned
with the NFL, they for thelongest time they didn't quote
unquote have to worry about fansbecause they were always sold
out and they had you know 20million people plus watching
every game.
But I think there was thisrealization that they're risking
(06:26):
losing some of the young kids.
Uh here in the Midwest, uh,more and more high schools are
struggling to uh field afootball team because became
less popular.
So yeah, their approach isdefinitely double down on youth
sports.
And and right now, the flagfootball is this great, great
avenue.
It helps that flag footballwill be at LA Olympics.
(06:48):
So that also it gives themopportunity to really have a
kind of a high visibilityplatform to feature the sport,
albeit slightly different, toglobal audiences.
Actually, I think just lastweek they announced professional
flag football men's and women'steam.
So they're already kind ofgrowing bigger, but that's a
huge part of developing theiraudiences.
Uh soccer, very similar.
(07:09):
Investing in youth sports andconverting those young kids,
boys and girls, into becomingfans of the sport.
But it's not just a sport.
For the longest time, uh FIFA,the video game, was one of the
top three reasons that kidsbecame fans of soccer.
I think that's that's oneaspect.
You see NFL again or NHLpartnering with Nickelodeon and
(07:32):
making games almost feel likegame entertainment.
So I think, yes, I thinkthere's there's this opportunity
to attract younger audiencesand to leverage technology to uh
to go after those people invery in a very different,
non-traditional way, and startdeveloping those fandoms very
early on.
Damian Bazadona (07:50):
And it's hard.
I think the I think what'sfascinating with a lot of people
on this uh webinar can sort ofattest to is the the there's a
gravitational pull to do what'salways worked and to target
those who are already in thetent.
And yet the growth opportunityis on the outside of how do you
expand to new places, newaudiences, new markets.
That's that needs new talent,new investment.
(08:11):
And I know that's usually a tugof the you got to keep those
ROIs high on the revenue beingthe expenses to drive revenue,
but if you want to buildaudiences to long game, it's
it's a it's a totally differentinvestment equation.
Um Maureen.
Maureen Andersen (08:24):
Hi, Mike.
It's nice to see you.
Um, we I wanted to kind of moveover to like ask you uh taking
that same thread and moving itover to college sports, is that
they're unique.
We met in an environment ofcollege football and college
athletics.
So uh I'm I'm and you'reimmersed in it now.
Um so when you look atcolleges, it's kind of like I
(08:45):
see it as a double squeeze, isthat you have an alumni base
that has been cultivated overmany, many, many years that may
be aging out.
You have new students comingin.
And what what kind ofchallenges are they facing with
fan engagement between those twoaudiences?
And are they being squeezed?
Is it changing profoundly?
(09:06):
Now I have a second part tothis question after that.
Michal Lorenc (09:09):
Yeah, so so oh my God, college athletics.
We like, you know, when peoplesay, may you live in interesting
times, anyone affiliated withcollege athletics, like this is
kind of crazy.
Like, I love it right now.
I'm I sit inside, I can seechanges.
I think I mentioned to you kindof earlier, students that are
seniors right now, when theywere freshmen here at the
University of Michigan, JimHarbour, their coach, got
(09:30):
suspended for buying a $17cheeseburger to a potential
recruit.
That was their freshman year.
Now they're graduating, they'reseniors.
Three and a half years later,University of Michigan threw an
alum, paid $10 million, notunder the table, officially paid
$10 million to attract a localfreshman to play quarterback.
You have the name, image,likeness, NIL.
(09:53):
You have the transfer portal,you have potential entry of
private equity into college,collegiate sports, you have the
expansion of conferences and theimpact it has on everything.
So, yes, I think there are verysignificant changes that are
happening to the whole fabric ofcollege athletics.
(10:15):
And there's also a risk.
Uh, outside of a handful ofschools, University of Michigan
being one of those, there is uha real challenge in attendance.
Lots of college students don'tcome to football games as much
as they used to be in the past.
Number of schools are loweringnow, number of allotments to
students.
Another challenge is thatstudents that come to the game,
(10:36):
they don't really come forfootball.
They come for the camaraderie,they come for, you know, the
Enter the Sandman, the Mr.
Brightman song, and then theyleave because they have so many
exciting, more fun things to dolater on.
So I think the big questionexactly is as you mentioned,
alums were bred from people thatwent to school that really
(10:57):
developed their experience andtheir loyalty to their brand
because of the experience at thegame, because of the
camaraderie, because of some ofthe rivalries that have been for
hundred years in someinstances.
Those rivalries are going away.
The the Apple Cup or the CivilWar are not the same right now
that with the change of the BigTen.
Maureen Andersen (11:18):
It's more difficult to infuse into the
DNA, whereas use it used to bepart of the entire culture from
the day you entered a college.
Michal Lorenc (11:26):
Exactly, exactly.
And then I believe personallythat there's a big risk if if
college sports becomesprofessionalized to the point of
being almost as good asprofessional sports, but not
quite as good because the levelof talent is different and you
miss you're missing out on theemotional collection, the
pageantry of college football,you know, all of the alumni kind
(11:49):
of the connections, then willpeople really tune in as much?
Will they care as much?
And if they don't care, willthey support their schools when
they graduate?
So I think that's kind of thebig changes that are happening
right now that we don't have theanswers for yet.
Maureen Andersen (12:04):
But what about minor league sports?
When you think about what'sgoing on kind of over in um with
with minor league itself, Imean it's more accessible, but
then you've got things like theSavannah Bananas and Cosmic
Baseball, which is by, you know,out by the the Major League
Baseball by MLB.
Are these gateways, do theyactually take people and make
them fans?
(12:25):
It does does minor league sporthave some of the same issues?
Michal Lorenc (12:30):
Uh so yes and no.
The sports itself is becomingreally expensive and not as
affordable as it was in thepast.
Uh professional sports areextremely expensive.
For a family of four to go toan average football game, you
look at $500 expense.
Uh basketball, baseball, alittle less expensive, but still
that's a lot.
So I think minor league sports,minor league teams have an
(12:51):
opportunity to provide closerproximity and much more
affordable gateway, access tothe game itself.
Uh accessibility to talent isvery, very different.
You know, the the the when youthink of the spring ball for
baseball.
One of the key draws for lotsof people is to be able to
actually to interact withplayers.
Minor league sports can offerthat.
(13:11):
My club, AFC Ann Arbor, alwaysoffers the the autograph line
after every game, win or lose,rain or shine.
And the kids that come to ourgames absolutely love it.
They they they line up, theythey they for them, meeting with
collegiate athletes is issomething that they'll remember
forever.
So I think there's opportunity.
Now the challenge is uh minorleague sports are not must-see
(13:35):
events outside of SavannahBananas and others.
So you know, you are third orfourth in a consideration.
Many of those teams don't sellout, so you don't have the
scarcity issue.
Um many of the fans come, theyknow they can get tickets.
They will get tickets when theweather's nice and they have
nothing else to do.
So it's really hard to growkind of the fan bases.
(13:57):
So I think what lots ofsemi-professional minor league
teams do, they try to createevents.
Savannah Bananas being a greatexample.
It's almost a 4th of Julyparade and a circus and a
baseball game all combinedtogether.
It's very high energy, it'sit's exciting.
I think the question is can youreplicate it every week?
Is it does it become staleafter a while?
Is that something that peoplewill go to to see once or twice
(14:20):
a year versus patronizing thesame team multiple times
throughout the season?
So I think that's that's thechallenge.
Another thing, it's becomingexpensive to run any sports
organization.
So many of those teams on thelower level, they they they
start, they don't have mediarights, which is a huge, about
(14:41):
half of the revenue thatprofessional teams draw.
So without media rights, theyhave to lean in on tickets and
sponsorship and merchandising toa much higher level.
Uh, and and most of them losemoney short term.
Maureen Andersen (14:54):
You brought up ticketing, so I'm gonna go
there.
So, you know, you often hearthat ticketing is kind of like
that first handshake, or youknow, um, those of us in the
business is like it's the firsthug that a fan gets.
And you and I both have talkedabout this multiple times about
how far the technology and howfast it's evolved is how do you
see sports teams actually usingthat ticketing moment, uh, that
(15:18):
that that embrace to bring themin and to change them, to um
move them along through theengagement process.
But more importantly, what arewe missing?
Now that we have all thesetools and we're we kind of get
them there, what what are wemissing?
Michal Lorenc (15:35):
Yeah, so there is lots of innovation happening,
maybe not in ticketing itself,but in how you leverage tickets.
So I think that's that's athat's a great example.
So I actually, and I keep onsaying it, uh, the relationship
starts even before somebody buysa ticket.
This is the the discovery phasewhen I'm looking for tickets.
And you know, my my formeremployer for the longest time,
when you when you searchanything ticket related, those
(15:57):
were secondary ticket uhplatforms that were results one,
two, three, and four.
So, you know, in a way, kind ofthe people were the audiences
were conditioned to look for anytickets, cheap tickets, on
secondary platforms.
We all know the relationshipthat you can develop when you
actually get somebody directlyto your site, how you can start
building brand, buildingrelations.
So I think that's the firststep, the discovery.
(16:19):
How do you find out what'shappening around me?
Uh, how do you actually getaccess to tickets?
What are the benefits ofgetting tickets directly from a
venue or from a club rather thanthrough their authorized
reseller?
So I think that's kind of oneaspect.
What I'm seeing a lot of goodis after somebody buys a ticket,
I think the sports teams arebecoming much, much better at uh
(16:43):
using their own media, emailmarketing, some of the pushes
through through apps to make theexperiences to get in the venue
easier for fans.
So, you know, it might be anoffer to get discounted parking
nearby.
It might be a weather alertabout what's happening.
It might be, hey, alert, hey,there's six things happening
(17:04):
downtown Detroit, so planaccordingly.
It can also be transactional.
You are in seat X, use Gate Y.
Uh, how about pre-ordering somemerge?
Maybe you can reserve thebubble head if you signed up for
it.
So I think there's a ways tokind of do the moment between
buying a ticket and somebodyentering the venue as a way to
(17:26):
make experiences much better andto market to them.
Where I think we still can domuch, much better job is to
leverage ticketing data to makein-venue experience better.
We know a lot about thosepeople.
How many times they go to aballpark?
Do they prefer a weekend orweekday?
Do they buy one or fourtickets?
(17:46):
So I think there's a way kindof to make that experience
better.
And then I'm starting to seesome kind of ideas around how do
you maintain the relationshipvia ticket with somebody after
the game has ended, after theyleft the venue.
And I'm not talking about thebasic remarketing on email, hope
you had fun, come back toanother game.
(18:06):
Uh, Detroit Red Wings, uh,right around here, uh, they're
starting their 100th anniversaryand they're actually uh uh
selling lots of commemorativetickets where you'll be able to,
in addition to buying a ticket,to buy a physical ticket which
will have some kind of a digitaluh component, which people will
be able to customize, addingthe score, maybe adding a
(18:27):
picture of their experiences.
So I think because again, if weare in a memory-making
business, we have ways toenhance those memories, not just
during the game itself, butalso afterwards.
Maureen Andersen (18:39):
It's also making sure that we paint the
right pictures and that youknow, with the personas and with
the data and all of that, ismaking sure that we're we
create, we're almost curatorsnow of the experience and
feeding it to them in a way thatthey want it, right?
Oh, meeting where they are.
Michal Lorenc (18:56):
Yes, literally last week in one of my classes,
we we did a buyer persona for abaseball team, and and we spent
this class a lot of timeunderstanding the differences
between a single game buyerversus a group ticket buyer
versus a season ticket buyer.
And and yeah, again, combiningthe insights and data that you
can have through ticket buyingplatforms, but then really
(19:17):
painting the picture,understanding what inspires
those people, doing a muchbetter job, understanding it by
a persona allows us to createthose amazing storylines, which
will get people to continue topatronize us and be our fans.
Maureen Andersen (19:30):
Absolutely.
Hey, uh Peter, I see there's abunch of questions coming in.
You want to take an audiencequestion?
Peter Yagecic (19:35):
Sure.
Uh, and and I love that exampleof sending photos after the
event.
I know that happens when I goto Disney World.
I get an email after I'm therewith me on the roller coaster
and me all throughout the park.
So we know the technology'sthere.
Uh here here's one questionfrom the audience, Mike, that
I'd love to get your thoughtson.
You mentioned the internetenables fans to find new teams
(19:56):
to love around the world, notjust their local team.
But sometimes it's still hardto actually watch those games
that aren't nearby me.
How can those in charge ofpromoting games help with that?
Or uh can can technology helpreduce the friction?
What's your vision of what thatcould look like for
accessibility to those gamesthat might not be near me in a
(20:17):
couple of years?
Michal Lorenc (20:18):
Yeah, no, that's a very, very challenging
question from the businessperspective.
Like it it's it seems soobvious.
Hey, more people should be ableto watch the games no matter
where they are.
But media companies arespending literally billions of
dollars securing media rights.
Uh in 2025, a total of $25billion has been allotted just
(20:40):
to secure the big five, big sixsports media rights in the US.
So the media companies arereally incentivized to try to
find the best way to recouptheir investment.
And with declining rates ofcable ownership, now in the US
under 50%, the reliance on pureadvertising model is kind of uh
(21:01):
diminishing.
So that's why you see number ofstreaming services or some kind
of a pay-per-view where we areasking people to buy to watch
games.
Uh now you see it a lot onagain the tribal-ish sports,
sports that historically havereally relied on some of the
local sports networks, baseball,hockey being great examples,
(21:22):
NFL, football, and basketball,uh they secure lots of big
rights and they're thinkingabout going global.
So it's a little differentapproach.
So uh but as I mentionedbefore, watching game doesn't
mean committing three hours towatch the entire game.
So I think where technology canreally help is to push lots of
content and give the snackableideas, highlight the the you
(21:44):
know the key plays, but alsoshow things outside of the
what's happening on the field,what's happening kind of in the
stadium, and push it to peoplethat want to watch it.
So it's not no longer justwatching the entire game, it's
how do you find the content in away, in a format that as a
consumer you're best used to,you're best equipped to do.
Peter Yagecic (22:04):
Oh, I'll I'd love to sneak in one more audience
question before I kick it backto Damien.
Um, if universities can't keepstudents for the whole game
today, what will that mean forthe volume of alumni fandom in
five to ten years?
Any ideas how to reverse thattrend of current student
attention deficit?
Michal Lorenc (22:24):
Yeah, so I I I joke that the the average
attention span of a goldfish iseight seconds, average attention
span of my students is sixseconds.
So it's actually shorter than agoldfish and and and and and
and it's showing.
It's showing it at university.
So right now, the youngaudiences, the college students,
it's all about FOMO.
They they don't want to missout on a cool event, cool
(22:45):
activity.
Uh and so, yes, if you have uhan artist or when you have a
cool song that's being played,if there's some kind of a
cultural activity that'shappening within the game,
they'll stick for that.
Uh short term, when it comes toalum supporting, short term,
ironically, NIL changes havehelped because lots of alums
realize that they can supporttheir universities with money
(23:08):
that goes directly towardsacquiring talent.
But I think that's that's shortterm.
I think the question about longterm is you know how how do you
build loyalty?
And it's not just a problem incollege athletics, entire
marketing, entire business, thethe younger audiences are not as
loyal to brands that they havebeen in the past.
They change it frequently.
I think sports, collegeathletics have been holding on
(23:32):
to people sticking with theirloyalties, having their one or
their two teams kind of forever.
But I think the risk is thatthey won't care as much later
on.
Maureen Andersen (23:43):
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Damian Bazadona (24:20):
Let's talk a little bit about, you know,
sports fans are obviouslyincredibly diverse.
And for leagues, talk aboutsome of the bigger leagues, I
suppose, right?
They're like you got seasonticket holders, you have casual
event seekers who are trying tocome in that are they trying to
build these audiences.
There's just something, and wetalk about this a lot on this
podcast, is this idea of likelegacy versus kind of, you know,
(24:41):
the way things have been versusthe way things are and where
they're going, inviting peopleinto the tent.
Um, I think as an NFL fan, Ithink one of my favorite is when
I tell people I watch NFL RedZone, and which is effectively
every touchdown from every playwithin the 20-yard line, you
know, or that window of time is.
Anyone who's an actual footballfan is like, that is just
terrible.
Like, how on earth they find itlike sacrilegious.
Like, what are you crazy?
(25:02):
And uh, but I find it like so.
This is gonna be a struggle,and we've talked a lot already
on this in this conversation,but I think it's fascinating
about like navigating those twostreams of like the the the
spectrum of fandom and theirconnection to it, but how all
those people live together inkind of under these ruse when
they come together.
I think about things likepolitical stands, all these
(25:24):
things of how you know who it'sI just find it interesting.
What what are you seeing?
What are you hearing?
Michal Lorenc (25:30):
Yeah, no, great question.
So, you know, it kind ofdepends who you talk to.
When you talk to anybody on therevenue side of the of the of
the house, they they all they'rethey're tasked with maximizing
revenue.
So, how do you maximizerevenue?
You use dynamic pricing to tryto come up with the maximum
amount that you can get perticket.
You create VIP environment asclose to the field as possible.
(25:54):
Uh, but it's kind of pricingout of fans.
So I'll I'll give you like areal example, literally from
last night.
Uh I was watching the theTigers game and then the Yankees
game, uh, as well as the Cubsgame.
So Chicago Cubs, my my favoriteteam, uh, they did not monetize
the the, you know, that theydid not put the VIP sitting kind
of behind the home plate.
And when you watch the game, itis absolutely amazing
(26:17):
atmosphere.
Everybody's standing,everybody's looking and
watching.
And then you turn to the theYankees or the the Tigers, where
they have amazing home plateclub, uh, which looks half empty
or 30% empty during eliminationgame playoffs.
Again, from monetizationperspective, when you talk to
people that run that, they madeway more money.
(26:37):
They they they catered towardsthe the VIP customer, they they
did their right thing, butyou're alienating and you are
not giving opportunity for someof the hardcore fans to embrace
kind of the same experience.
So I think that's a bigchallenge.
Now, compare that to what uhSteve Ballmer did with the the
(26:58):
the internet arena uh with theClippers, where he basically
created a sitting which is areplica of Duke basketball,
where you know the the the mostardent fans, the loudest ones,
will be the closest to theaction.
I think soccer does a very goodjob creating subhored sections
where those are the fans thatwill stand and chant and wave
(27:19):
their flags kind of the entiregame.
And that atmosphere's pullingin lots of people.
So again, the push and pull ofwhat's good for short-term
revenue versus what's good fordriving the fandom is is real.
And there needs to be the rightbalance.
And sometimes it might take anowner, somebody that's above the
(27:39):
VP of marketing and VP ofrevenue, to decide what to do.
Because short-term professionalsports have lots of
opportunities to maximizerevenue by creating VIP
experiences.
Same with performing arts,theater, and others.
Uh, but again, though thosefans are not the fanatics.
They're not the most loyal,ardent fans.
(27:59):
They use the access to venuesfor different reasons.
Those are companies, those areuh business individuals who are
whining, dining, entertainingothers.
Uh uh, they don't necessarilyhave the same level of
engagement and kind of the stakeas other fans.
Damian Bazadona (28:15):
You know, Mike, I had in my notes, I was
literally going to use thatexample from last night.
I saw the same exact thing.
And it's absolutely nuts.
And then you look into like thebleacher creatures, you
couldn't even fit an inchbetween people.
It was like so jammed andpeople going excited,
particularly the Yankee game.
Yes.
I was just saying to myself, ohMike, it was a it's so funny we
use the same example.
Um my head was like, oh.
Uh Maureen.
Maureen Andersen (28:36):
So, you know, when you talk about the you
know, the fan and the love ofthe sport, I mean, not everybody
can be the Denver Broncos thatholds the NFL record for the
most every single game is soldout regardless of how they're
playing up and down since 1970or something.
So you are a marketer, you camefrom Google with your data, you
know, you know technology.
(28:57):
So we've got AI, streaming,social.
How are the entry points forfandom and sports and love of
sports teams changing?
And how can you leverage those?
Damian Bazadona (29:10):
Yeah.
Maureen Andersen (29:11):
And are we doing a good job?
Michal Lorenc (29:13):
I I think we're doing a decent job.
I think we can do a better job.
So, no, the the traditionalmarketing funnel, attention,
interest, desire, action.
You know, it's it's it's it'sit's almost too simplistic.
Uh always I tell my students,Ariana Grande, seven rings.
I see it, I like it, I want it,I got it.
So, so again, like theprofessional sports have no
trouble with the attention, thehigh level.
And some of it is, you know,it's it's it's part of part of
(29:35):
the culture.
We talk about it, people talkabout it, the sports betting,
uh, network.
So attention is there.
Interest and desire.
I think that's where we shouldbe able to leverage more data to
you know to segment theaudiences a little better, to
really start understanding onthe granular level which of the
people that are aware of thatverb broncos actually are really
(29:55):
interested in going.
And of those that areinterested, how many of them
realistically can?
Can go and what touch point orwhat storylines will get them to
get there.
So that's kind of you know thethe interest towards desire.
Uh I think traditionallydigital marketing has been very
good at auction by now.
No, use your search campaign,uh, identify people that are at
(30:19):
the very bottom of the funnel.
The top of the funnel is kindof easier, but the middle of the
funnel, I think that's where wecould do a much better job, and
that's where technology cancome in very, very handy.
Uh uh, we talk about buyerpersonas, but realistically,
every customer is unique.
Everybody might have adifferent challenge.
So that's where you can usetechnology to try to scale some
(30:39):
of the messages.
Create, if not one-to-onemarketing, you know, and
multiple buyer personas andmultiple paths to purchase and
scale it quickly.
So people that are interestedin winning versus tradition
versus FOMO versus I have peoplecoming in this weekend and I'm
looking for something to do toshow them where I live, they all
(31:03):
have different messages and wecan find them and entice them to
consider our club.
So I think that's one aspect.
Another one is sports, entireperforming arts uh is all about
storytelling.
So creating the compellingstories and getting people to be
engaged and to love and toreally care.
(31:24):
I think that's something thatsome teams do it better than
others.
Ironically, all teams do itvery well within the arena
itself.
When you think of the fan camor the lookalikes, uh, I think
there's a way to bring some ofthat into kind of the real
world.
Some of the most viral videosaround sports have been not
around the highlight of the gameitself, have been around the
(31:46):
interaction of a fan with theirfavorite player.
Or, you know, the the somebodycatching the baseball and giving
it to a kid, or some kind of areunion.
So there are all of those kindof emotions that are built in
that we should be able tohighlight in a better way.
Maureen Andersen (32:05):
Emotion, I think it's great.
Capturing emotion, and then youknow what we didn't talk about
and probably don't have timetoday is is the persona of price
sensitivity.
Michal Lorenc (32:13):
Yes.
Oh, again, I uh you know youyou've heard me talk a lot about
I I worry about US consumer.
Uh I mean that's the the factthat buy now pay later is so
prevalent in ticket buying is ais a problem.
Yeah, coachella.
But your opportunity right now.
So yeah, I think pricesensitivity and and and people
still want to get entertained,people still prioritize
experiences over things, butthere's a threshold and they
(32:35):
they're they're they're lookingat their budgets, which again,
data market the right marketingcan help you with that.
Uh, but yeah, that's a separateconversation.
Maureen Andersen (32:44):
Hey Peter, do you have more questions?
Thank you, Mike.
Peter Yagecic (32:46):
Yeah, I want to I want to get in one more
audience question because Ithink this plays really well
into the storytelling and theemotion that you were just
talking about.
This is a fun one that's comeup in a few other uh episodes of
the series.
Mike, what sport do you thinkis due for the streaming series
treatment?
A la Welcome to Rexum or Driveto Survive.
Michal Lorenc (33:04):
Yeah, so I truly believe that the the growth, the
hypergrowth of women's sportsdeserves closer look, kind of
the behind the scenes.
So no, the the NWSL or for me,I would love to see a
professional hockey team, awoman, women's professional
hockey league, uh PWHL, get moreof a kind of the insight.
(33:25):
You know, when you think aboutanything from uh how do you
actually attract the players,the uh the the female players
kind of dealing with anythingfrom from the recovery to
motherhood, uh to having to playin venues that were designed
and built for men.
Uh the different ways that youattract, uh sponsorship.
The fastest growing sponsorshipright now is around women's
(33:47):
sports.
Private equity is getting intowomen's sports.
So I think there's lots of veryrich content.
I know Ted Lasso supposedlywill concentrate on women's
team.
Welcome to RexCom has a women'steam, but I think a deep dive
into professional orsemi-professional women's sports
from both on the field as wellas off the field and the the
(34:10):
players' perspective would I'dwatch it.
Peter Yagecic (34:13):
Yeah.
Well, I our our former guest,JC Dehoop from The Gist, would
would love to hear that answertoo.
So I'm going to make sure sheshe hears that.
Uh Damien, uh kicking it backto you to take us home.
Damian Bazadona (34:23):
All right.
Let me just say up front, bythe way, Peter and Maureen, I
just love spending time with youguys.
Actually, this is actually thehighlight of my week to do
these.
Um, Mike, thank you.
And you were alwaysextraordinarily giving with your
time, uh, always bringingknowledge and wisdom truly.
Uh, and it's just I we allgenuinely appreciate it.
Um you're not hard to schedulebecause you're like, I'm game.
You let me know how and when,and it really means a lot.
(34:44):
You do a lot of good for a lotof people.
Um, let's talk about.
You have sat, I'm I'm going alittle bit back to your your
Googler days, but like you sitacross, you were sitting across
the table from all thesedecision makers, how they're
spending their marketingdollars, how they're making
investments.
Tell me about what's auniversal truth about fandom
(35:05):
that you've seen that you feellike sometimes these leaders
just forgot in the process orcontinuing to forget that you
you would share.
Michal Lorenc (35:14):
I so I'll I'll give you two.
One of them comes the higherend, one of them more tactical.
I think the higher end, peoplechoose us.
And it's all about passion andenergy.
So I think sometimes we we talka lot about you know the FTEs
or business component, kind ofpeople coming in, but the seats
to fill.
(35:34):
Uh, but but sometimes we forgetabout the the deeper connection
with all of the performing artsor live events.
This is people making memories,this is fathers and mothers
bringing their kids for thefirst time to kind of create
something that's everlasting.
So that can be kind of lost intranslation when you have a very
business-like decision.
I think that's something that'sthat's worth kind of keeping in
(35:57):
mind.
Uh, you build a verylong-lasting, you have a chance
to build a very long-lasting,meaningful relationship with
those consumers that transcendsone of transaction.
On a tactical level, on theticketing side specifically, and
Maureen, you'll appreciate it.
I one of the my favoritequestions that I ask, especially
the very senior people in aroom, was when was the last time
(36:19):
you bought a ticket to your ownevent?
And you'd be and you'd besurprised how few, because I
don't have to, because peoplegive me tickets.
When I go to somebody else,they they will comp me, I will
enter.
But actually, having S VPs ofticketing, having to go through
a process of finding and buyinga ticket to their event on a
mobile device was kind ofcomical.
(36:41):
So I think that's somethingthat we forget.
You know, the the the old kindof adage, put yourself in a
consumer's shoes and actually gothrough the process.
Try to find a ticket, figureout exactly where the ticket is.
Okay, when the emailconfirmation ends up in your
spam folder and you don't havean assistant that helps you find
it, how do you navigate it?
(37:02):
So going through a verygranular process of finding,
buying, and then redeeming usingticket without the VIP
treatment has been veryeye-opening.
And I think that's somethingthat's really, really critical
for the senior people to do.
Like how hot is really thesection 300 at 1 p.m.
(37:23):
in Tampa, Florida?
And do you really expectsomebody to spend $175 to sit
there?
So again, those are some of theexperiences.
So experiencing what you wantpeople to experience uh can be
very critical.
And sometimes, or too often,unfortunately, people in the
(37:43):
decision-making capacity don'thave to do it, therefore they
don't do it.
Maureen Andersen (37:48):
Well said.
It's one thing, Mike, to sit atyour computer and do A-B
testing, you know, all over theplace and just looking at, you
know, websites and all that kindof thing.
It's another to get out of achair and go and look at your
fan and be a fan and go throughyour own process, right?
Michal Lorenc (38:03):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So I think the challenge toeverybody, kind of on on this
podcast, do it.
Buy a ticket to one of yourevents and tell us, or tell
yourself what you could dobetter.
Peter Yagecic (38:18):
That's gonna do it for this episode of Phantom
Unpack the Podcast.
If you liked what you heard,please be sure to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Find out how to join us livefor an upcoming recording at
SituationLife.comslash fan.
We'll see you next time, truebelievers.
You're listening to Fandom Unpacked from
Situation and INTIX, the podcastseries where we unpack modern
fandom with some of thebrightest minds in sports and
entertainment.
I'm producer Peter Yagecic andjoining me for today's QA are
Situation CEO and founder DamianBazadana and President and CEO
of Intex, Maureen Andersen.
Our guest today is Mike Lorenc,Clinical Assistant Professor of
(00:26):
Sport Management at theUniversity of Michigan and
co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor.
Here's Damian to kick us off.
Damian Bazadona (00:34):
Mike, thanks for doing this again.
Always good to see you.
How um let's talk about in theaudience today, there's a range
of live event experience folksthat cover all realms of fandom.
So from sports, but alsoculture, attractions, arts, you
name it.
(00:54):
Wide range of folks here.
How do you think about, andyou've worked across your life
in Google and other universes,you and I, we've collaborated
over the years across alldifferent facets of live
entertainment.
How do you see sports fandom?
What's different about sportsfandom?
Or overlapping, I suppose, withsome of those segments, but
what's what's different aboutit?
Michal Lorenc (01:12):
Yeah, so one thing I'll start is, and that's
something I talk to my studentsa lot.
So a lot of my students aresport management students.
Uh I think it's reallyimportant for all of us to keep
in mind that we're we're talkingto people that are seeking
entertainment.
So whether it's sports,performing arts, music, theater,
it's it's it's a form ofentertainment.
So that's what thoseindividuals have in common.
They're they're seeking out away to spend some of their free
(01:35):
time and hopefully some of thedollars to be entertained, to be
inspired, to uh be in some typeof a communal environment.
Uh so that's the similarity.
Probably the biggest differencewhen you think about sports
fan, the definition of fanactually comes from fanatic.
It's somebody that's more of anevergreen.
I am a fan of Chicago Cubs, notjust right now, but for a long
(02:00):
time, whether they win or lose.
So I think you have more of alongevity.
Somebody can develop the fandomfrom early childhood and then
kind of carry it on throughout.
So, you know, from the businessperspective, the lifetime value
uh equation for a sports fanwould probably be higher than
somebody of uh of theater oreven music because of the
frequency of activities thatthey can go to and then the
(02:23):
impact that can have.
I think that's one bigdifference.
Another one is just the waythat sports, especially
professional sports, make money,is very different than most
other forms of entertainment.
So, you know, they have more ofa mix of revenue sources.
It's not just ticketing.
For many of them, actually,ticketing is a small part of
overall revenue mix.
(02:44):
They have sponsorships, theyhave merchandising, they have
concessions, they also havemedia rights.
So that's kind of like a verydifferent equation.
And sometimes it's comparingapples to oranges when you think
about the economics of concertor performing gods venue versus
a sports team or sports league.
Damian Bazadona (03:00):
Yeah, no, no, I agree.
I think the touch points arejust significantly different.
And I also feel like all forms,all forms of most experiential
properties come back tostorytelling of some version.
And the sports teams, I'm aGiants fan, it's a never-ending
story, right?
And right now we're in probablynot the chapters you want to
skip, but I've been in part ofchapters in which they're
winning.
Um, and you know, I find thecommonality is just like it
(03:22):
comes down to storytelling, whatattracts people to a lot of
these things.
But it's staying on that, Iwant to talk about growth.
Um, I kind of want to just jumpright into that topic because I
think it's a big one about kindof growth of fan communities.
And I think in the sportssphere, a lot of it is really
how you were brought up.
Is that a significant part ofit, not all of it, what you were
introduced to, right?
Of how you come into something,whether you were brought up
around a football family or abasketball, whatever that might
(03:44):
be.
Yeah.
Um, how do brands, and I thinkthis has been a challenge both
for established brands,established leagues, but also
startup leagues, about building,like, how do you either accept
this and go at people who have ahigh likelihood, or how do you
grow your audiences?
I you I look at what the NFLhas done.
I think what the NFL is doingwith flag football is actually
kind of unbelievable.
(04:05):
Where the idea of taking flagfootball, introducing it to
young women effectively, reallyin high school, installing all
these leagues.
So now there's tackle and thenthere's flag football side by
side as a way to grow theaudience.
I think the other, I'm a biginto sort of flag football for
my boys, but I think one of thebig asterisk of that is they
stop it at NFL does not sanctionit after eighth grade by
design.
And so they've made thesethings like, oh, boys do tackle
(04:28):
football, girls do flagfootball, like the way they're
structuring it.
But it's all about audiencedevelopment in their mind.
You could clearly see it.
Tell me, what are you seeing inthat space?
Yeah.
It's that, or what do you whatdo you hear and what do you see?
Michal Lorenc (04:39):
That that's so when it comes to sports, that's
probably one of the biggestchallenges and or opportunities.
Uh, how do you develop theyoung fans?
Uh so on one hand, when youlook at the the viewership of
professional sports, especiallyon broadcast TV, it's actually
very old.
All of the sports are over 45.
Baseball, football are over 50,almost over 55.
Wait, which is which isworrisome, you know, from the
(05:00):
advertiser perspective, from youknow, all of the other aspects.
On the other hand, only about30% or even less of young
audiences under 25 actuallywatch full games live.
They that they live in a in ahighlights and short-form video
kind of environment.
So sitting two or three hoursof watching a game is really,
(05:20):
really hard.
Uh now, yes, Debian, you'reright.
Historically, we became fans oftypically our local sports
because the media coverage waslimited or was much deeper on
the local level.
Or we became fans of the teamsor brands that people close to
us, our parents, grandparents,our friends, uh introduced us
to.
Maybe somebody received aDallas Cowboys jersey when they
(05:43):
were eight years old, and theystarted developing that type of
fandom.
So that was kind of thetraditional way, which was very
tribal and very local from itsaspect.
With internet, with technology,uh, that has changed
dramatically.
So right now, I am not bound bygeography.
I can pick and choose the team,but also the athlete that I
(06:04):
care deeply about.
And I start I can startdeveloping those relationships
very early on.
Now, what's really interestingis yes, you what you mentioned
with the NFL, they for thelongest time they didn't quote
unquote have to worry about fansbecause they were always sold
out and they had you know 20million people plus watching
every game.
But I think there was thisrealization that they're risking
(06:26):
losing some of the young kids.
Uh here in the Midwest, uh,more and more high schools are
struggling to uh field afootball team because became
less popular.
So yeah, their approach isdefinitely double down on youth
sports.
And and right now, the flagfootball is this great, great
avenue.
It helps that flag footballwill be at LA Olympics.
(06:48):
So that also it gives themopportunity to really have a
kind of a high visibilityplatform to feature the sport,
albeit slightly different, toglobal audiences.
Actually, I think just lastweek they announced professional
flag football men's and women'steam.
So they're already kind ofgrowing bigger, but that's a
huge part of developing theiraudiences.
Uh soccer, very similar.
(07:09):
Investing in youth sports andconverting those young kids,
boys and girls, into becomingfans of the sport.
But it's not just a sport.
For the longest time, uh FIFA,the video game, was one of the
top three reasons that kidsbecame fans of soccer.
I think that's that's oneaspect.
You see NFL again or NHLpartnering with Nickelodeon and
(07:32):
making games almost feel likegame entertainment.
So I think, yes, I thinkthere's there's this opportunity
to attract younger audiencesand to leverage technology to uh
to go after those people invery in a very different,
non-traditional way, and startdeveloping those fandoms very
early on.
Damian Bazadona (07:50):
And it's hard.
I think the I think what'sfascinating with a lot of people
on this uh webinar can sort ofattest to is the the there's a
gravitational pull to do what'salways worked and to target
those who are already in thetent.
And yet the growth opportunityis on the outside of how do you
expand to new places, newaudiences, new markets.
That's that needs new talent,new investment.
(08:11):
And I know that's usually a tugof the you got to keep those
ROIs high on the revenue beingthe expenses to drive revenue,
but if you want to buildaudiences to long game, it's
it's a it's a totally differentinvestment equation.
Um Maureen.
Maureen Andersen (08:24):
Hi, Mike.
It's nice to see you.
Um, we I wanted to kind of moveover to like ask you uh taking
that same thread and moving itover to college sports, is that
they're unique.
We met in an environment ofcollege football and college
athletics.
So uh I'm I'm and you'reimmersed in it now.
Um so when you look atcolleges, it's kind of like I
(08:45):
see it as a double squeeze, isthat you have an alumni base
that has been cultivated overmany, many, many years that may
be aging out.
You have new students comingin.
And what what kind ofchallenges are they facing with
fan engagement between those twoaudiences?
And are they being squeezed?
Is it changing profoundly?
(09:06):
Now I have a second part tothis question after that.
Michal Lorenc (09:09):
Yeah, so so oh my God, college athletics.
We like, you know, when peoplesay, may you live in interesting
times, anyone affiliated withcollege athletics, like this is
kind of crazy.
Like, I love it right now.
I'm I sit inside, I can seechanges.
I think I mentioned to you kindof earlier, students that are
seniors right now, when theywere freshmen here at the
University of Michigan, JimHarbour, their coach, got
(09:30):
suspended for buying a $17cheeseburger to a potential
recruit.
That was their freshman year.
Now they're graduating, they'reseniors.
Three and a half years later,University of Michigan threw an
alum, paid $10 million, notunder the table, officially paid
$10 million to attract a localfreshman to play quarterback.
You have the name, image,likeness, NIL.
(09:53):
You have the transfer portal,you have potential entry of
private equity into college,collegiate sports, you have the
expansion of conferences and theimpact it has on everything.
So, yes, I think there are verysignificant changes that are
happening to the whole fabric ofcollege athletics.
(10:15):
And there's also a risk.
Uh, outside of a handful ofschools, University of Michigan
being one of those, there is uha real challenge in attendance.
Lots of college students don'tcome to football games as much
as they used to be in the past.
Number of schools are loweringnow, number of allotments to
students.
Another challenge is thatstudents that come to the game,
(10:36):
they don't really come forfootball.
They come for the camaraderie,they come for, you know, the
Enter the Sandman, the Mr.
Brightman song, and then theyleave because they have so many
exciting, more fun things to dolater on.
So I think the big questionexactly is as you mentioned,
alums were bred from people thatwent to school that really
(10:57):
developed their experience andtheir loyalty to their brand
because of the experience at thegame, because of the
camaraderie, because of some ofthe rivalries that have been for
hundred years in someinstances.
Those rivalries are going away.
The the Apple Cup or the CivilWar are not the same right now
that with the change of the BigTen.
Maureen Andersen (11:18):
It's more difficult to infuse into the
DNA, whereas use it used to bepart of the entire culture from
the day you entered a college.
Michal Lorenc (11:26):
Exactly, exactly.
And then I believe personallythat there's a big risk if if
college sports becomesprofessionalized to the point of
being almost as good asprofessional sports, but not
quite as good because the levelof talent is different and you
miss you're missing out on theemotional collection, the
pageantry of college football,you know, all of the alumni kind
(11:49):
of the connections, then willpeople really tune in as much?
Will they care as much?
And if they don't care, willthey support their schools when
they graduate?
So I think that's kind of thebig changes that are happening
right now that we don't have theanswers for yet.
Maureen Andersen (12:04):
But what about minor league sports?
When you think about what'sgoing on kind of over in um with
with minor league itself, Imean it's more accessible, but
then you've got things like theSavannah Bananas and Cosmic
Baseball, which is by, you know,out by the the Major League
Baseball by MLB.
Are these gateways, do theyactually take people and make
them fans?
(12:25):
It does does minor league sporthave some of the same issues?
Michal Lorenc (12:30):
Uh so yes and no.
The sports itself is becomingreally expensive and not as
affordable as it was in thepast.
Uh professional sports areextremely expensive.
For a family of four to go toan average football game, you
look at $500 expense.
Uh basketball, baseball, alittle less expensive, but still
that's a lot.
So I think minor league sports,minor league teams have an
(12:51):
opportunity to provide closerproximity and much more
affordable gateway, access tothe game itself.
Uh accessibility to talent isvery, very different.
You know, the the the when youthink of the spring ball for
baseball.
One of the key draws for lotsof people is to be able to
actually to interact withplayers.
Minor league sports can offerthat.
(13:11):
My club, AFC Ann Arbor, alwaysoffers the the autograph line
after every game, win or lose,rain or shine.
And the kids that come to ourgames absolutely love it.
They they they line up, theythey they for them, meeting with
collegiate athletes is issomething that they'll remember
forever.
So I think there's opportunity.
Now the challenge is uh minorleague sports are not must-see
(13:35):
events outside of SavannahBananas and others.
So you know, you are third orfourth in a consideration.
Many of those teams don't sellout, so you don't have the
scarcity issue.
Um many of the fans come, theyknow they can get tickets.
They will get tickets when theweather's nice and they have
nothing else to do.
So it's really hard to growkind of the fan bases.
(13:57):
So I think what lots ofsemi-professional minor league
teams do, they try to createevents.
Savannah Bananas being a greatexample.
It's almost a 4th of Julyparade and a circus and a
baseball game all combinedtogether.
It's very high energy, it'sit's exciting.
I think the question is can youreplicate it every week?
Is it does it become staleafter a while?
Is that something that peoplewill go to to see once or twice
(14:20):
a year versus patronizing thesame team multiple times
throughout the season?
So I think that's that's thechallenge.
Another thing, it's becomingexpensive to run any sports
organization.
So many of those teams on thelower level, they they they
start, they don't have mediarights, which is a huge, about
(14:41):
half of the revenue thatprofessional teams draw.
So without media rights, theyhave to lean in on tickets and
sponsorship and merchandising toa much higher level.
Uh, and and most of them losemoney short term.
Maureen Andersen (14:54):
You brought up ticketing, so I'm gonna go
there.
So, you know, you often hearthat ticketing is kind of like
that first handshake, or youknow, um, those of us in the
business is like it's the firsthug that a fan gets.
And you and I both have talkedabout this multiple times about
how far the technology and howfast it's evolved is how do you
see sports teams actually usingthat ticketing moment, uh, that
(15:18):
that that embrace to bring themin and to change them, to um
move them along through theengagement process.
But more importantly, what arewe missing?
Now that we have all thesetools and we're we kind of get
them there, what what are wemissing?
Michal Lorenc (15:35):
Yeah, so there is lots of innovation happening,
maybe not in ticketing itself,but in how you leverage tickets.
So I think that's that's athat's a great example.
So I actually, and I keep onsaying it, uh, the relationship
starts even before somebody buysa ticket.
This is the the discovery phasewhen I'm looking for tickets.
And you know, my my formeremployer for the longest time,
when you when you searchanything ticket related, those
(15:57):
were secondary ticket uhplatforms that were results one,
two, three, and four.
So, you know, in a way, kind ofthe people were the audiences
were conditioned to look for anytickets, cheap tickets, on
secondary platforms.
We all know the relationshipthat you can develop when you
actually get somebody directlyto your site, how you can start
building brand, buildingrelations.
So I think that's the firststep, the discovery.
(16:19):
How do you find out what'shappening around me?
Uh, how do you actually getaccess to tickets?
What are the benefits ofgetting tickets directly from a
venue or from a club rather thanthrough their authorized
reseller?
So I think that's kind of oneaspect.
What I'm seeing a lot of goodis after somebody buys a ticket,
I think the sports teams arebecoming much, much better at uh
(16:43):
using their own media, emailmarketing, some of the pushes
through through apps to make theexperiences to get in the venue
easier for fans.
So, you know, it might be anoffer to get discounted parking
nearby.
It might be a weather alertabout what's happening.
It might be, hey, alert, hey,there's six things happening
(17:04):
downtown Detroit, so planaccordingly.
It can also be transactional.
You are in seat X, use Gate Y.
Uh, how about pre-ordering somemerge?
Maybe you can reserve thebubble head if you signed up for
it.
So I think there's a ways tokind of do the moment between
buying a ticket and somebodyentering the venue as a way to
(17:26):
make experiences much better andto market to them.
Where I think we still can domuch, much better job is to
leverage ticketing data to makein-venue experience better.
We know a lot about thosepeople.
How many times they go to aballpark?
Do they prefer a weekend orweekday?
Do they buy one or fourtickets?
(17:46):
So I think there's a way kindof to make that experience
better.
And then I'm starting to seesome kind of ideas around how do
you maintain the relationshipvia ticket with somebody after
the game has ended, after theyleft the venue.
And I'm not talking about thebasic remarketing on email, hope
you had fun, come back toanother game.
(18:06):
Uh, Detroit Red Wings, uh,right around here, uh, they're
starting their 100th anniversaryand they're actually uh uh
selling lots of commemorativetickets where you'll be able to,
in addition to buying a ticket,to buy a physical ticket which
will have some kind of a digitaluh component, which people will
be able to customize, addingthe score, maybe adding a
(18:27):
picture of their experiences.
So I think because again, if weare in a memory-making
business, we have ways toenhance those memories, not just
during the game itself, butalso afterwards.
Maureen Andersen (18:39):
It's also making sure that we paint the
right pictures and that youknow, with the personas and with
the data and all of that, ismaking sure that we're we
create, we're almost curatorsnow of the experience and
feeding it to them in a way thatthey want it, right?
Oh, meeting where they are.
Michal Lorenc (18:56):
Yes, literally last week in one of my classes,
we we did a buyer persona for abaseball team, and and we spent
this class a lot of timeunderstanding the differences
between a single game buyerversus a group ticket buyer
versus a season ticket buyer.
And and yeah, again, combiningthe insights and data that you
can have through ticket buyingplatforms, but then really
(19:17):
painting the picture,understanding what inspires
those people, doing a muchbetter job, understanding it by
a persona allows us to createthose amazing storylines, which
will get people to continue topatronize us and be our fans.
Maureen Andersen (19:30):
Absolutely.
Hey, uh Peter, I see there's abunch of questions coming in.
You want to take an audiencequestion?
Peter Yagecic (19:35):
Sure.
Uh, and and I love that exampleof sending photos after the
event.
I know that happens when I goto Disney World.
I get an email after I'm therewith me on the roller coaster
and me all throughout the park.
So we know the technology'sthere.
Uh here here's one questionfrom the audience, Mike, that
I'd love to get your thoughtson.
You mentioned the internetenables fans to find new teams
(19:56):
to love around the world, notjust their local team.
But sometimes it's still hardto actually watch those games
that aren't nearby me.
How can those in charge ofpromoting games help with that?
Or uh can can technology helpreduce the friction?
What's your vision of what thatcould look like for
accessibility to those gamesthat might not be near me in a
(20:17):
couple of years?
Michal Lorenc (20:18):
Yeah, no, that's a very, very challenging
question from the businessperspective.
Like it it's it seems soobvious.
Hey, more people should be ableto watch the games no matter
where they are.
But media companies arespending literally billions of
dollars securing media rights.
Uh in 2025, a total of $25billion has been allotted just
(20:40):
to secure the big five, big sixsports media rights in the US.
So the media companies arereally incentivized to try to
find the best way to recouptheir investment.
And with declining rates ofcable ownership, now in the US
under 50%, the reliance on pureadvertising model is kind of uh
(21:01):
diminishing.
So that's why you see number ofstreaming services or some kind
of a pay-per-view where we areasking people to buy to watch
games.
Uh now you see it a lot onagain the tribal-ish sports,
sports that historically havereally relied on some of the
local sports networks, baseball,hockey being great examples,
(21:22):
NFL, football, and basketball,uh they secure lots of big
rights and they're thinkingabout going global.
So it's a little differentapproach.
So uh but as I mentionedbefore, watching game doesn't
mean committing three hours towatch the entire game.
So I think where technology canreally help is to push lots of
content and give the snackableideas, highlight the the you
(21:44):
know the key plays, but alsoshow things outside of the
what's happening on the field,what's happening kind of in the
stadium, and push it to peoplethat want to watch it.
So it's not no longer justwatching the entire game, it's
how do you find the content in away, in a format that as a
consumer you're best used to,you're best equipped to do.
Peter Yagecic (22:04):
Oh, I'll I'd love to sneak in one more audience
question before I kick it backto Damien.
Um, if universities can't keepstudents for the whole game
today, what will that mean forthe volume of alumni fandom in
five to ten years?
Any ideas how to reverse thattrend of current student
attention deficit?
Michal Lorenc (22:24):
Yeah, so I I I joke that the the average
attention span of a goldfish iseight seconds, average attention
span of my students is sixseconds.
So it's actually shorter than agoldfish and and and and and
and it's showing.
It's showing it at university.
So right now, the youngaudiences, the college students,
it's all about FOMO.
They they don't want to missout on a cool event, cool
(22:45):
activity.
Uh and so, yes, if you have uhan artist or when you have a
cool song that's being played,if there's some kind of a
cultural activity that'shappening within the game,
they'll stick for that.
Uh short term, when it comes toalum supporting, short term,
ironically, NIL changes havehelped because lots of alums
realize that they can supporttheir universities with money
(23:08):
that goes directly towardsacquiring talent.
But I think that's that's shortterm.
I think the question about longterm is you know how how do you
build loyalty?
And it's not just a problem incollege athletics, entire
marketing, entire business, thethe younger audiences are not as
loyal to brands that they havebeen in the past.
They change it frequently.
I think sports, collegeathletics have been holding on
(23:32):
to people sticking with theirloyalties, having their one or
their two teams kind of forever.
But I think the risk is thatthey won't care as much later
on.
Maureen Andersen (23:43):
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Damian Bazadona (24:20):
Let's talk a little bit about, you know,
sports fans are obviouslyincredibly diverse.
And for leagues, talk aboutsome of the bigger leagues, I
suppose, right?
They're like you got seasonticket holders, you have casual
event seekers who are trying tocome in that are they trying to
build these audiences.
There's just something, and wetalk about this a lot on this
podcast, is this idea of likelegacy versus kind of, you know,
(24:41):
the way things have been versusthe way things are and where
they're going, inviting peopleinto the tent.
Um, I think as an NFL fan, Ithink one of my favorite is when
I tell people I watch NFL RedZone, and which is effectively
every touchdown from every playwithin the 20-yard line, you
know, or that window of time is.
Anyone who's an actual footballfan is like, that is just
terrible.
Like, how on earth they find itlike sacrilegious.
Like, what are you crazy?
(25:02):
And uh, but I find it like so.
This is gonna be a struggle,and we've talked a lot already
on this in this conversation,but I think it's fascinating
about like navigating those twostreams of like the the the
spectrum of fandom and theirconnection to it, but how all
those people live together inkind of under these ruse when
they come together.
I think about things likepolitical stands, all these
(25:24):
things of how you know who it'sI just find it interesting.
What what are you seeing?
What are you hearing?
Michal Lorenc (25:30):
Yeah, no, great question.
So, you know, it kind ofdepends who you talk to.
When you talk to anybody on therevenue side of the of the of
the house, they they all they'rethey're tasked with maximizing
revenue.
So, how do you maximizerevenue?
You use dynamic pricing to tryto come up with the maximum
amount that you can get perticket.
You create VIP environment asclose to the field as possible.
(25:54):
Uh, but it's kind of pricingout of fans.
So I'll I'll give you like areal example, literally from
last night.
Uh I was watching the theTigers game and then the Yankees
game, uh, as well as the Cubsgame.
So Chicago Cubs, my my favoriteteam, uh, they did not monetize
the the, you know, that theydid not put the VIP sitting kind
of behind the home plate.
And when you watch the game, itis absolutely amazing
(26:17):
atmosphere.
Everybody's standing,everybody's looking and
watching.
And then you turn to the theYankees or the the Tigers, where
they have amazing home plateclub, uh, which looks half empty
or 30% empty during eliminationgame playoffs.
Again, from monetizationperspective, when you talk to
people that run that, they madeway more money.
(26:37):
They they they catered towardsthe the VIP customer, they they
did their right thing, butyou're alienating and you are
not giving opportunity for someof the hardcore fans to embrace
kind of the same experience.
So I think that's a bigchallenge.
Now, compare that to what uhSteve Ballmer did with the the
(26:58):
the internet arena uh with theClippers, where he basically
created a sitting which is areplica of Duke basketball,
where you know the the the mostardent fans, the loudest ones,
will be the closest to theaction.
I think soccer does a very goodjob creating subhored sections
where those are the fans thatwill stand and chant and wave
(27:19):
their flags kind of the entiregame.
And that atmosphere's pullingin lots of people.
So again, the push and pull ofwhat's good for short-term
revenue versus what's good fordriving the fandom is is real.
And there needs to be the rightbalance.
And sometimes it might take anowner, somebody that's above the
(27:39):
VP of marketing and VP ofrevenue, to decide what to do.
Because short-term professionalsports have lots of
opportunities to maximizerevenue by creating VIP
experiences.
Same with performing arts,theater, and others.
Uh, but again, though thosefans are not the fanatics.
They're not the most loyal,ardent fans.
(27:59):
They use the access to venuesfor different reasons.
Those are companies, those areuh business individuals who are
whining, dining, entertainingothers.
Uh uh, they don't necessarilyhave the same level of
engagement and kind of the stakeas other fans.
Damian Bazadona (28:15):
You know, Mike, I had in my notes, I was
literally going to use thatexample from last night.
I saw the same exact thing.
And it's absolutely nuts.
And then you look into like thebleacher creatures, you
couldn't even fit an inchbetween people.
It was like so jammed andpeople going excited,
particularly the Yankee game.
Yes.
I was just saying to myself, ohMike, it was a it's so funny we
use the same example.
Um my head was like, oh.
Uh Maureen.
Maureen Andersen (28:36):
So, you know, when you talk about the you
know, the fan and the love ofthe sport, I mean, not everybody
can be the Denver Broncos thatholds the NFL record for the
most every single game is soldout regardless of how they're
playing up and down since 1970or something.
So you are a marketer, you camefrom Google with your data, you
know, you know technology.
(28:57):
So we've got AI, streaming,social.
How are the entry points forfandom and sports and love of
sports teams changing?
And how can you leverage those?
Damian Bazadona (29:10):
Yeah.
Maureen Andersen (29:11):
And are we doing a good job?
Michal Lorenc (29:13):
I I think we're doing a decent job.
I think we can do a better job.
So, no, the the traditionalmarketing funnel, attention,
interest, desire, action.
You know, it's it's it's it'sit's almost too simplistic.
Uh always I tell my students,Ariana Grande, seven rings.
I see it, I like it, I want it,I got it.
So, so again, like theprofessional sports have no
trouble with the attention, thehigh level.
And some of it is, you know,it's it's it's part of part of
(29:35):
the culture.
We talk about it, people talkabout it, the sports betting,
uh, network.
So attention is there.
Interest and desire.
I think that's where we shouldbe able to leverage more data to
you know to segment theaudiences a little better, to
really start understanding onthe granular level which of the
people that are aware of thatverb broncos actually are really
(29:55):
interested in going.
And of those that areinterested, how many of them
realistically can?
Can go and what touch point orwhat storylines will get them to
get there.
So that's kind of you know thethe interest towards desire.
Uh I think traditionallydigital marketing has been very
good at auction by now.
No, use your search campaign,uh, identify people that are at
(30:19):
the very bottom of the funnel.
The top of the funnel is kindof easier, but the middle of the
funnel, I think that's where wecould do a much better job, and
that's where technology cancome in very, very handy.
Uh uh, we talk about buyerpersonas, but realistically,
every customer is unique.
Everybody might have adifferent challenge.
So that's where you can usetechnology to try to scale some
(30:39):
of the messages.
Create, if not one-to-onemarketing, you know, and
multiple buyer personas andmultiple paths to purchase and
scale it quickly.
So people that are interestedin winning versus tradition
versus FOMO versus I have peoplecoming in this weekend and I'm
looking for something to do toshow them where I live, they all
(31:03):
have different messages and wecan find them and entice them to
consider our club.
So I think that's one aspect.
Another one is sports, entireperforming arts uh is all about
storytelling.
So creating the compellingstories and getting people to be
engaged and to love and toreally care.
(31:24):
I think that's something thatsome teams do it better than
others.
Ironically, all teams do itvery well within the arena
itself.
When you think of the fan camor the lookalikes, uh, I think
there's a way to bring some ofthat into kind of the real
world.
Some of the most viral videosaround sports have been not
around the highlight of the gameitself, have been around the
(31:46):
interaction of a fan with theirfavorite player.
Or, you know, the the somebodycatching the baseball and giving
it to a kid, or some kind of areunion.
So there are all of those kindof emotions that are built in
that we should be able tohighlight in a better way.
Maureen Andersen (32:05):
Emotion, I think it's great.
Capturing emotion, and then youknow what we didn't talk about
and probably don't have timetoday is is the persona of price
sensitivity.
Michal Lorenc (32:13):
Yes.
Oh, again, I uh you know youyou've heard me talk a lot about
I I worry about US consumer.
Uh I mean that's the the factthat buy now pay later is so
prevalent in ticket buying is ais a problem.
Yeah, coachella.
But your opportunity right now.
So yeah, I think pricesensitivity and and and people
still want to get entertained,people still prioritize
experiences over things, butthere's a threshold and they
(32:35):
they're they're they're lookingat their budgets, which again,
data market the right marketingcan help you with that.
Uh, but yeah, that's a separateconversation.
Maureen Andersen (32:44):
Hey Peter, do you have more questions?
Thank you, Mike.
Peter Yagecic (32:46):
Yeah, I want to I want to get in one more
audience question because Ithink this plays really well
into the storytelling and theemotion that you were just
talking about.
This is a fun one that's comeup in a few other uh episodes of
the series.
Mike, what sport do you thinkis due for the streaming series
treatment?
A la Welcome to Rexum or Driveto Survive.
Michal Lorenc (33:04):
Yeah, so I truly believe that the the growth, the
hypergrowth of women's sportsdeserves closer look, kind of
the behind the scenes.
So no, the the NWSL or for me,I would love to see a
professional hockey team, awoman, women's professional
hockey league, uh PWHL, get moreof a kind of the insight.
(33:25):
You know, when you think aboutanything from uh how do you
actually attract the players,the uh the the female players
kind of dealing with anythingfrom from the recovery to
motherhood, uh to having to playin venues that were designed
and built for men.
Uh the different ways that youattract, uh sponsorship.
The fastest growing sponsorshipright now is around women's
(33:47):
sports.
Private equity is getting intowomen's sports.
So I think there's lots of veryrich content.
I know Ted Lasso supposedlywill concentrate on women's
team.
Welcome to RexCom has a women'steam, but I think a deep dive
into professional orsemi-professional women's sports
from both on the field as wellas off the field and the the
(34:10):
players' perspective would I'dwatch it.
Peter Yagecic (34:13):
Yeah.
Well, I our our former guest,JC Dehoop from The Gist, would
would love to hear that answertoo.
So I'm going to make sure sheshe hears that.
Uh Damien, uh kicking it backto you to take us home.
Damian Bazadona (34:23):
All right.
Let me just say up front, bythe way, Peter and Maureen, I
just love spending time with youguys.
Actually, this is actually thehighlight of my week to do
these.
Um, Mike, thank you.
And you were alwaysextraordinarily giving with your
time, uh, always bringingknowledge and wisdom truly.
Uh, and it's just I we allgenuinely appreciate it.
Um you're not hard to schedulebecause you're like, I'm game.
You let me know how and when,and it really means a lot.
(34:44):
You do a lot of good for a lotof people.
Um, let's talk about.
You have sat, I'm I'm going alittle bit back to your your
Googler days, but like you sitacross, you were sitting across
the table from all thesedecision makers, how they're
spending their marketingdollars, how they're making
investments.
Tell me about what's auniversal truth about fandom
(35:05):
that you've seen that you feellike sometimes these leaders
just forgot in the process orcontinuing to forget that you
you would share.
Michal Lorenc (35:14):
I so I'll I'll give you two.
One of them comes the higherend, one of them more tactical.
I think the higher end, peoplechoose us.
And it's all about passion andenergy.
So I think sometimes we we talka lot about you know the FTEs
or business component, kind ofpeople coming in, but the seats
to fill.
(35:34):
Uh, but but sometimes we forgetabout the the deeper connection
with all of the performing artsor live events.
This is people making memories,this is fathers and mothers
bringing their kids for thefirst time to kind of create
something that's everlasting.
So that can be kind of lost intranslation when you have a very
business-like decision.
I think that's something that'sthat's worth kind of keeping in
(35:57):
mind.
Uh, you build a verylong-lasting, you have a chance
to build a very long-lasting,meaningful relationship with
those consumers that transcendsone of transaction.
On a tactical level, on theticketing side specifically, and
Maureen, you'll appreciate it.
I one of the my favoritequestions that I ask, especially
the very senior people in aroom, was when was the last time
(36:19):
you bought a ticket to your ownevent?
And you'd be and you'd besurprised how few, because I
don't have to, because peoplegive me tickets.
When I go to somebody else,they they will comp me, I will
enter.
But actually, having S VPs ofticketing, having to go through
a process of finding and buyinga ticket to their event on a
mobile device was kind ofcomical.
(36:41):
So I think that's somethingthat we forget.
You know, the the the old kindof adage, put yourself in a
consumer's shoes and actually gothrough the process.
Try to find a ticket, figureout exactly where the ticket is.
Okay, when the emailconfirmation ends up in your
spam folder and you don't havean assistant that helps you find
it, how do you navigate it?
(37:02):
So going through a verygranular process of finding,
buying, and then redeeming usingticket without the VIP
treatment has been veryeye-opening.
And I think that's somethingthat's really, really critical
for the senior people to do.
Like how hot is really thesection 300 at 1 p.m.
(37:23):
in Tampa, Florida?
And do you really expectsomebody to spend $175 to sit
there?
So again, those are some of theexperiences.
So experiencing what you wantpeople to experience uh can be
very critical.
And sometimes, or too often,unfortunately, people in the
(37:43):
decision-making capacity don'thave to do it, therefore they
don't do it.
Maureen Andersen (37:48):
Well said.
It's one thing, Mike, to sit atyour computer and do A-B
testing, you know, all over theplace and just looking at, you
know, websites and all that kindof thing.
It's another to get out of achair and go and look at your
fan and be a fan and go throughyour own process, right?
Michal Lorenc (38:03):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So I think the challenge toeverybody, kind of on on this
podcast, do it.
Buy a ticket to one of yourevents and tell us, or tell
yourself what you could dobetter.
Peter Yagecic (38:18):
That's gonna do it for this episode of Phantom
Unpack the Podcast.
If you liked what you heard,please be sure to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Find out how to join us livefor an upcoming recording at
SituationLife.comslash fan.
We'll see you next time, truebelievers.
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The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.