October 22, 2024 • 24 mins
The relationship between artists and fans has undergone a dramatic transformation in recent years, and no one understands this evolution better than John Loken, EVP at The Recording Academy. In this captivating episode of Fandom Unpacked, we dive deep into how modern musicians are building authentic connections with their audiences in ways previously unimaginable.
Gone are the days when performers were untouchable deities separated from their admirers. Today's most successful artists embrace vulnerability and transparency, using social media not just as a promotional tool but as a platform for genuine conversation. John and host Damian Bazadona share fascinating examples of this shift, from Travis Scott publicly denouncing VIP ticket holders at his own concert to Lana Del Rey stopping mid-show to interact personally with individual fans. These moments aren't just spontaneous gestures—they represent a fundamental reimagining of the artist-fan relationship.
The Recording Academy and its GRAMMY Awards occupy a unique position in this new landscape. As John explains, unlike fan-voted awards, the Grammys reflect the choices of roughly 13,000 music professionals, creating an interesting dynamic where they must simultaneously engage with both industry insiders and passionate fan communities. When nominations are announced, marketers must carefully navigate the expectations of different artist fandoms, knowing that for every celebrated winner, seven other artists and their devoted followers will face disappointment.
John also describes how organizations can sustain engagement beyond once-a-year award shows. By shifting narratives toward advocacy work in areas like artificial intelligence regulation and creator rights, The Recording Academy transforms casual followers into dedicated supporters invested in the music industry's future. This approach recognizes that today's fans want more than just entertainment—they seek meaningful connections with the artists and institutions they support.
Ready to understand how fandom is reshaping music and entertainment? Join us for this revealing conversation that will forever change how you think about your favorite artists and the passionate communities that surround them.
Recorded Tuesday, October 22nd, 2024
Host: Damian Bazadona, CEO & Founder, Situation
Guest: John Loken, EVP of Marketing, The Recording Academy
Producer: Peter Yagecic, Innovation Advisor, Situation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Yagecic (00:00):
What was it about the modern fan, or modern
fandom, that called to you as atopic that you wanted to try to
unpack in this Q&A style?
Damian Bazadona (00:09):
We have so many clients across such a wide
range of industries in theentertainment and media space,
from theater and entertainmentto media to sports.
The unifying element of that isfandom, and so I think we all
can learn a little bit ofsomething from somebody else.
And so we have access to somany smart folks, and I think
it's a gift to be able to sortof say can we bring all these
(00:29):
smart people together, haveconversations?
We can all learn a bit fromeach other.
Peter Yagecic (00:39):
You're listening to Fandom Unpacked, the podcast,
an audio version of our regularlive stream series where we
unpack modern fandom with someof the brightest minds in sports
.
And Thank you what the Grammyscan teach us about fandom.
Here's Damian and John, so Johnis.
I've known John for years.
Damian Bazadona (01:07):
I think we met back at Ticketmaster days, but
he's executive vice president atthe Recording Academy and a key
player at the Grammy Awards.
You know, before we actuallyget into fandom around the
Grammys, just as an icebreaker,aside from music, just out of
curiosity, what are you a fan of?
I like to hear people's kind ofinternal fandom and what lights
you up.
John Loken (01:29):
Is there a world outside of music?
No, I think of fandom as kindof anything that you're
passionate about, and I thinkwith social media and just sort
of the digital age in general,we have a platform to express
those passions and to divedeeply into those passions.
So, for example, I'm a totalnerd about into sneakers.
You could be into whatever youknow, some super obscure type of
(01:52):
literature Like it's all thereavailable to you, and I know
(02:15):
we're going to talk about thiswith the Grammys and with music
fandom.
But it's a wonderful world tohave eclectic.
It's a wonderful time to haveeclectic taste and be interested
in a broad spectrum of things.
Damian Bazadona (02:29):
Will the Dodgers beat the Yankees?
John Loken (02:31):
Absolutely.
Damian Bazadona (02:34):
This meeting's over.
All right, let's take us insidethe Recording Academy.
And because the Grammysobviously are the shiny object
and obviously a substantial partof it, but it'd be helpful, I
think, sort of set the table forcontext.
I know you have an awesome teamfrom behind the scenes, also on
the marketing and social mediafront.
You got to do a lot of work,but it'd be helpful just to set
the context a little bit moreabout the Recording Academy, if
(02:55):
you can.
John Loken (02:56):
Yeah, a lot of people know us for the Grammys
but they don't know that there'sa nonprofit behind the Grammys
called the Recording Academy.
It's an organization, aprofessional organization,
that's been around for 67 years,founded in 1957.
And the Grammy Awards which thefirst telecast was in 1958, has
(03:21):
been the sort of we think of itas the graduation ceremony that
follows an entire year ofactivity.
We have about 22,000 membersacross 12 chapters across the US
.
It breaks down roughly 13,000people who vote on the Grammy
Awards.
(03:41):
They're qualified to be voters,we can talk about that.
There's another 3,000 to 4,000who are professional members and
then we have about 6,000 to7,000 Grammy U members.
These are both students who arematriculated at university and
it's a six-year program.
So from the time you're afreshman and you join Grammy U,
(04:02):
you can stay through yourcollege experience and then, two
years after um, we just openedthat up to non-matriculated
young people who are under 29,but who are actively pursuing a
career in music.
Um, and the way I tend to thinkabout this and the way we think
about this in marketing is um.
We think that brand impact is aformula and it's really about
(04:27):
the reach that you have and thereputation that you have and
those two sort of reinforce oneanother.
Grammys is obviously a hugemoment of reach.
We've been getting more andmore people each year now to
actually watch linear television, that big black rectangle in
your mom's living room.
But it's about the reputationand the work that we do and the
(04:51):
mission that we have, which isto advocate for music, people
and to serve them, and that'sreally our purpose.
So it's those two thingsworking in concert with one
another year round.
Damian Bazadona (05:03):
That's what the marketing team does how do you
so take me into the your team'sapproach to building fandom
around kind of all activitieswith the recording academy so
like?
So in one respect I wouldimagine you spend significant
efforts to build fandom aroundthe award show itself, but at
the same time I would imagine asignificant part of your role is
(05:24):
about engaging, like the tensof millions of social followers
from the nominated artists.
Like, how do you navigate thatin terms of where most of your
efforts spent in sort ofcapturing fandom and how you
think about it For sure.
John Loken (05:37):
I mean, when you get your nominated list of artists
and we're going to have our bignominations live stream on
november 8th, that's almost thecasting, if you will, for your
story and for the narrativesthat follow from november 8th to
february 2nd, when our, whenour, telecast happens, um, so
it's a natural thing to say,okay, we've got.
(05:58):
I don't know yet, but we willprobably have nominated music
from, you know, taylor, swift,from billy eilish, from beyonce.
You would be derelict in yourduties as a marketer if you
didn't somehow figure out how totap into those audiences,
because they're not only massiveaudiences, they're extremely
fervent, right, it's anextremely active audience.
(06:20):
And what's kind of cool about alot of this, too, is certain
artists have become really savvyabout creating lores and
legends within their ecosystem,you know.
So it's not just I put out analbum and I go on tour, it's I
drop different little eastereggs and putting out singles,
videos, posts.
(06:40):
Our job is to tap into that andto harness that.
And what's sometimes trickyabout it is people don't really
think about it this way.
But if you have eight artistsnominated for record of the year
, say, for every one artist whowins right, whose dreams come
true on that night and thedreams of their fans come true
(07:03):
on that night.
You have seven artists whosedreams are crushed and you have
seven fandoms whose dreams arecrushed.
And so we feel that we as abrand feel that big time in our
socials because people get, theytake it very personally.
You know they.
I mean half of half of oursocial posts.
(07:26):
You know there's alwayssomebody who comments you know
justice for nikki or whatever,like um, listen, this is, this
is the reality of a fandom, andso we try to harness it.
We try to tell a positive story.
Um, certainly we're very activein that sense from that sort of
November through Februaryperiod.
(07:46):
But the other thing I woulddefinitely point out is we spent
a lot of time over the last fewyears thinking about the 22,000
members, right, this kind ofcore nucleus.
A lot of these are verycelebrated artists and
personalities and creators andinfluencers in their own right.
Many of them get nominated.
Many of them have won lots ofGrammys.
(08:08):
That's a different type offandom that we need to tap into.
We've always historicallyavoided shining the spotlight on
voting members, because peoplewho are voting don't want to get
inundated with for yourconsideration.
Campaigns, consideration, umcampaigns, but um.
What we found this year anywayis that the new voting members
(08:29):
are extremely proud to have madeit into that echelon, and we've
used a lot of that content insocial as well.
People are sharing theirexcitement about what's coming
up this Grammy season.
Damian Bazadona (08:40):
Just talk, just can we talk through some of the
, the uh called the, theattributes of the fan bases that
you think kind of get it rightand we don't need to name names
as much.
You'll feel free, I suppose.
But but really I feel likeyou've you see, the ones, the
fan bases, that you just feellike there's a either a deep
connection or they just have theability to, I don't know, drive
them to action, like, are thereany attributes?
(09:02):
You see that you kind of likelearnings you could take from
that that you feel like youcould share.
John Loken (09:05):
Yeah, that's a great question, Um, I hadn't really
thought about it, but I thinkthat, um, vulnerability and just
being very transparent aboutwho you are, I think we're
seeing something reallyinteresting playing out right
now with Chapel Roan.
Um, you've seen this in sports.
You've seen this in a fewdifferent areas, where people
(09:27):
are willing to be a little bitmore kind of hard on their
sleeve and talk about the thingsthat they're thrilled about,
but also to talk again veryauthentically, about the things
that they're worried about,including their mental wellness.
That's part of it, I think, abig part of it.
For anybody who publishes insocial media, whether you're an
(09:47):
artist or the Grammy Awards, ithas to be a conversation.
I think what we've really seenover the last few years is and
by that I mean a two-waydialogue right, we actually just
hired a social content producerwhose sole responsibility is to
engage with the community.
And again, the next timesomebody says you know justice
(10:10):
for Nikki, ask them what thatmeans you know and use it as an
opportunity.
Again, we're not trying topersuade people, but if we could
educate them even just a littlebit about how the process works
and to maybe take a little bitof the venom out of some of that
.
I think that is hugely helpful.
Peter Yagecic (10:34):
Fandom Unpacked is brought to you by Situation,
an award-winning marketingagency built for live
entertainment that champions thepower of unforgettable shared
experiences around the world.
We offer full marketing andcreative services for
experience-based brands in liveentertainment, attractions,
theater, sports, arts andculture, and more.
Check us out atSituationInteractivecom.
(10:55):
Now back to our Q&A.
Damian Bazadona (11:02):
I took my son to a Travis Scott concert at
MetLife Stadium two weeks ago orsomething like that, and you
know I got up to speed with alot of his music and stuff.
But what's fascinating to me,during the concert he looked
about halfway through.
He looks at the VIP deck andpoints at them and says I hate
VIPs, I hate you Like, I hateyou pretty much Right, right,
(11:23):
the whole place goes nuts and Ithink even people in the VIP
section were like you're right,they spent thousands of dollars,
right, and it is to his the ofhow he carries himself and how
he thinks about, like,connecting with people.
So the idea of the idea, theidea of VIP, even though they
exist, it was a fascinating butyet makes total sense with him,
with Travis Scott in particular,which I think he could see, the
(11:44):
love from the, the audience,the whole stadium, um, it was
kind of fascinating to me.
I said what other, what otheryou know field can you do that
where you blast the people whospend the most money on your
brand?
John Loken (11:55):
Well, it's funny, I was getting dragged to Lana Del
Rey concerts because mygirlfriend just is a super fan,
she's a complete nut, and Lanadoes something really
interesting in the middle of hershow.
She will just stop the musicand she will get off the stage
and she'll just start talking tofans one-on-one, and they're
giving her flowers and you know,the other 12,000, 18,000 people
(12:17):
are kind of like what are wedoing?
But again, it's really aboutholding space.
It's about having this directconnection that says and this is
, by the way, I think it'sremarkable, this is completely
different from the world,certainly that I grew up in.
The world I grew up in, youwould buy a ticket to go see a
band that you loved at a stadiumor an arena and there was such
(12:38):
a distance, right, there wassuch a kind of a mystery and we
thought these people were godsright.
And again, same in sportsseparation between the life of
(13:00):
that deity right and me as acommoner, as a fan, and all of
that.
I think social drives us right.
All of that has been erased.
Um, where, uh, the artists whoget it and who do well,
absolutely just embrace it andto a sometimes, you know, really
interesting and odd extent, uh,peter, I think we have a
question we do.
Peter Yagecic (13:18):
Well, I'm going to.
First of all, when you toldthat story about the I hate VIPs
, I thought you were saying yourson was saying that and I was
going to say that's a differentconversation.
Damian Bazadona (13:27):
And trust me, we did not buy the VIP ticket.
Peter Yagecic (13:31):
Well, I wanted to pull on something, john, that
you said a little bit about you.
I wanted to pull on something,john, that you said a little bit
about the Easter eggs thatartists are creating in their
songs and their videos and theirsocial media posts, and relate
it to what you said about therole that you just hired to do
the production and help you guysout with your social media and
engage in that conversation.
Is crafting these kinds ofengagements something that a lot
(13:55):
of artists want to embracethemselves, like Lana Del Rey
having those one-on-oneconversations, or are they
outsourcing it?
And do you have any sense ofwhat's the risk there of
somebody finding out that youweren't really talking to the
artist but that you were talkingto their social media team?
John Loken (14:19):
you know their social media team.
From my experience, it used tobe that it was the rarity, the
artist who really wanted toauthentically engage.
And you started to see thischange around 2003,.
2004, with Friendster and thenMySpace, where the savvier
musicians I used to be in.
At that time I ran anindependent label that was all
about punk rock and we had bandsout on the Warped Tour and it
(14:39):
was the ones who would reallyembrace that 20 years ago.
You know, from an artist or acreator perspective, this is a
new muscle.
This is a completely differentsort of way of being.
You know you create art, ofcourse, but now you also are
creating community.
Essentially, fast forward 20years now.
(14:59):
The exception is the artist whodoesn't really want to get
involved, not to call people out.
You do see sometimes in thesocial media feeds of some of
the older, maybe moretraditional artists where it's
pretty clear they're not theones with their you know, thumbs
on the on the screen, um, butuh, I would say the majority now
(15:22):
are absolutely hands-on.
And if they're not directlyhands-on, again, like if you're
beyonce, you have a team, um,but you're almost certainly
involved in those decisions asto what is being posted each day
, each week.
You would never kind of takeyour eyes and hands off of that
process.
Peter Yagecic (15:42):
Got it.
One of the questions that camein from our attendees was about
recognition.
So at award shows many artistsmake sure they thank their fans
first and foremost, like at theGrammys, for whatever
recognition they just received.
Has there been an evolution inthe ways that music artists
think thank their fans in recentyears beyond the shout out from
(16:05):
the podium?
How are you seeing any trendsin maybe using social media
platforms for artists to takethat thanks even further to
their fans?
John Loken (16:18):
I will say that this is a peculiar question to
answer for the Recording Academyand the Grammys specifically,
because our award is not a fanaward, unlike People's Choice.
Unlike, I think, the VMAs isvoted on by fans.
I think the American MusicAwards, if I'm not mistaken,
(16:39):
used to be voted on by fans.
Ours isn't.
Music Awards, if I'm notmistaken, used to be voted on by
fans.
Ours isn't.
So I actually wish that whenpeople got up, they would thank
the 13,000 people who voted forthem, and some of them do Again.
You see this a little bit morewith the Oscars, with the Emmys,
where they will thank theAcademy, literally the musicians
, in our case, the creators whovoted for them.
(17:01):
But I do think that this is partof what we're talking about,
which is artists recognize, um,that fans pay their bills.
I mean it's ironic to hear thattravis is yelling or calling
out the vip, uh folks, becausethose are absolutely the people
that are helping him buy hisfourth mansion in Telluride or
(17:23):
whatever.
I think, as the live side ofthe business has really come to
dominate how at least that topsort of 1% or 5% of artists
makes their money, theyabsolutely shout out to the fans
because these are the peoplethat buy tickets, and 75% of the
income for these folks isderived from live touring and
(17:47):
sponsorship, and all of that isfan-driven.
So I think, if anything, we'rejust going to see that kind of
trend increase where it's justmore and more about the people
that got you there and theyrecognize that.
Damian Bazadona (17:59):
Yeah, I also in the Travis Scott concert, the.
What I also I appreciate is heput a lot of his fans up on
stage and let them rage on stageand it just it's.
It does scream of authenticity,of like to his core base.
It's kind of remarkable.
It's an incredible showRecognizing.
There's a crazy pass there.
How do you, how do youtransform casual engagers into
(18:27):
diehard fans?
You're in organizations goingyear-round.
You have this obviously majorGrammys moment.
How do you kind of keep up theengagement ongoing?
And so how do you think aboutthat?
Because everyone looks forwardto the award show and then the
award show's over and your joband your entire team's job.
It's like how, how do you thinkabout that?
Because you know everyone looksforward to the award show and
then the award show is over andyour job and your entire team's
job.
It's like how do we keep thatpulse going?
John Loken (18:47):
Obviously, following the telecast, our storytelling
changes and we start to focusmore on the work that we do for
music makers year round, theability to harness all that
interest right, whether Istarted following you because
I'm part of the beehive or Istarted following you because
you know I'm a Swifty orwhatever.
(19:08):
But now you've got my attentionand now I see that you're in
Washington DC advocating for therights of human music creators.
Well, what's that?
What's that about?
Oh, well, turns out thatartificial intelligence is
potentially quite risky to thedistribution and creation of
music.
Oh, tell me more.
So, whether it's through ouremail network or social
(19:32):
followership, we have been ableto shift a little bit and to
talk about that and shine thespotlight on that as a means to
retain the new followers.
As a means to retain the newfollowers, and so far so good.
We've seen much lower attritionrates over the last six months
than we typically do.
So I think every brand isdifferent.
Our brand is incrediblyepisodic, you know.
(19:53):
Last thing I'll just say is it'sreally tricky.
The analogy I always give isimagine you're the manager of
the Gap and you're at this malland your store.
Your Gap is only open forbusiness one day a year, and so
you have to make all of yourproduct decisions, your staffing
decisions, your pricingdecisions, your advertising
(20:16):
decisions, everything based onone little window of data.
Based on one little window ofdata.
And then the store closes andthen you have to start planning
for your big one-day sale thenext year.
It's hard and you don't havetime to iterate in real time.
There is no real time.
It's one day, essentially.
Peter, do you want to takethese?
Peter Yagecic (20:36):
Yeah, we got a couple more questions that have
come in.
It seems like there's a shiftnow where in the past
entertainers would openthemselves up more, hire a team,
et cetera to connect with fans.
Now it seems entertainers'celebrity status is forming as
social following grows and thenthey break into different
outlets.
Do you think the change in howcelebrities build their fame has
(20:56):
impacted the way fans engagethem?
John Loken (20:59):
100%.
We think of artists like ladygaga, um, now as much as an
actress, as a musician, um, youknow, and and travis, and and
rihanna with fenty, like there'sall these different examples
now where, because they moveinto these sort of adjacent
(21:21):
spaces, there's newopportunities for fandom.
Literally, the fandom itselfcan become richer.
So I may not be a fan ofsomeone's music, but I love
their sneaker line, so it reallydoes expand the sphere pretty
dramatically.
Peter Yagecic (21:40):
Yeah, or maybe they started with a podcast and
then moved into exactly.
Exactly Um.
Another question from uh wantedto get in here.
The Grammys have so manycategories and some are very
specific types of music.
How do you help the lessmainstream celebrate their
fandoms?
This?
John Loken (21:59):
is so cool.
It almost seems like y'all havebeen following me around in my
calendar for the last weekbecause this has literally all
been discussed in meetingswithin the last few days.
We did a call I think it wasMonday or sorry, it was last
Monday with the independentmusic community, the Sunday
(22:23):
morning called the premierceremony.
That's where we give out 84Grammy awards.
That's sort of the non-telecastawards, and in that you have the
classical field, you have thejazz field, you have country,
you have rap, you have jazz, youhave all these different
categories, and so it is fandomwrit large, because these are
kind of silos, right, I meanthere's some Venn diagram
between classical fans andhip-hop fans, but it's not huge,
(22:46):
and so it's really a placewhere you have to tell sort of
individual stories targeted tothose niches.
Our solution for this is thatwe want to invite just in the
case of the independent musicscene, we want to invite more of
the independent media into thepremiere ceremony and possibly
(23:07):
into our social feeds leading in, so that some of these little
niches, these communities, thesemicro-communities, feel like
they're a part of the biggerGrammy story.
To me, it's not about the sizeof the audience, it's about the
passion and the noise that thataudience can make, and how
authentic they are to their, totheir, community damian,
(23:30):
anything else that you wanted totry to hit on before we start
wrapping up?
Damian Bazadona (23:34):
no, I think we got through most of the
questions, which is awesome.
I thank you everyone forsubmitting the questions.
I feel like we covered a lotand and I would just say john is
always giving with his time, wego way back and I feel like
we've geeked out on experientiallive theater, sports, you name
it.
He brings just an awesomecuriosity and generosity.
So I genuinely appreciate yourtime and I feel like we might
have to pull you back for a parttwo after the show.
(23:54):
We could do kind of a beforeand after.
Let's appreciate it.
Thank you.
John Loken (24:05):
Well, thank you guys .
This is a really funopportunity, and do add me to
the list because I want to comeback and join more of these.
Peter Yagecic (24:11):
That's going to do it for this episode of Fandom
Unpacked the podcast.
If you liked what you heard,please be sure to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Find out how to join us livefor an upcoming recording at
SituationLivecom slash fan.
We'll see you next time, truebelievers.
What was it about the modern fan, or modern
fandom, that called to you as atopic that you wanted to try to
unpack in this Q&A style?
Damian Bazadona (00:09):
We have so many clients across such a wide
range of industries in theentertainment and media space,
from theater and entertainmentto media to sports.
The unifying element of that isfandom, and so I think we all
can learn a little bit ofsomething from somebody else.
And so we have access to somany smart folks, and I think
it's a gift to be able to sortof say can we bring all these
(00:29):
smart people together, haveconversations?
We can all learn a bit fromeach other.
Peter Yagecic (00:39):
You're listening to Fandom Unpacked, the podcast,
an audio version of our regularlive stream series where we
unpack modern fandom with someof the brightest minds in sports
.
And Thank you what the Grammyscan teach us about fandom.
Here's Damian and John, so Johnis.
I've known John for years.
Damian Bazadona (01:07):
I think we met back at Ticketmaster days, but
he's executive vice president atthe Recording Academy and a key
player at the Grammy Awards.
You know, before we actuallyget into fandom around the
Grammys, just as an icebreaker,aside from music, just out of
curiosity, what are you a fan of?
I like to hear people's kind ofinternal fandom and what lights
you up.
John Loken (01:29):
Is there a world outside of music?
No, I think of fandom as kindof anything that you're
passionate about, and I thinkwith social media and just sort
of the digital age in general,we have a platform to express
those passions and to divedeeply into those passions.
So, for example, I'm a totalnerd about into sneakers.
You could be into whatever youknow, some super obscure type of
(01:52):
literature Like it's all thereavailable to you, and I know
(02:15):
we're going to talk about thiswith the Grammys and with music
fandom.
But it's a wonderful world tohave eclectic.
It's a wonderful time to haveeclectic taste and be interested
in a broad spectrum of things.
Damian Bazadona (02:29):
Will the Dodgers beat the Yankees?
John Loken (02:31):
Absolutely.
Damian Bazadona (02:34):
This meeting's over.
All right, let's take us insidethe Recording Academy.
And because the Grammysobviously are the shiny object
and obviously a substantial partof it, but it'd be helpful, I
think, sort of set the table forcontext.
I know you have an awesome teamfrom behind the scenes, also on
the marketing and social mediafront.
You got to do a lot of work,but it'd be helpful just to set
the context a little bit moreabout the Recording Academy, if
(02:55):
you can.
John Loken (02:56):
Yeah, a lot of people know us for the Grammys
but they don't know that there'sa nonprofit behind the Grammys
called the Recording Academy.
It's an organization, aprofessional organization,
that's been around for 67 years,founded in 1957.
And the Grammy Awards which thefirst telecast was in 1958, has
(03:21):
been the sort of we think of itas the graduation ceremony that
follows an entire year ofactivity.
We have about 22,000 membersacross 12 chapters across the US
.
It breaks down roughly 13,000people who vote on the Grammy
Awards.
(03:41):
They're qualified to be voters,we can talk about that.
There's another 3,000 to 4,000who are professional members and
then we have about 6,000 to7,000 Grammy U members.
These are both students who arematriculated at university and
it's a six-year program.
So from the time you're afreshman and you join Grammy U,
(04:02):
you can stay through yourcollege experience and then, two
years after um, we just openedthat up to non-matriculated
young people who are under 29,but who are actively pursuing a
career in music.
Um, and the way I tend to thinkabout this and the way we think
about this in marketing is um.
We think that brand impact is aformula and it's really about
(04:27):
the reach that you have and thereputation that you have and
those two sort of reinforce oneanother.
Grammys is obviously a hugemoment of reach.
We've been getting more andmore people each year now to
actually watch linear television, that big black rectangle in
your mom's living room.
But it's about the reputationand the work that we do and the
(04:51):
mission that we have, which isto advocate for music, people
and to serve them, and that'sreally our purpose.
So it's those two thingsworking in concert with one
another year round.
Damian Bazadona (05:03):
That's what the marketing team does how do you
so take me into the your team'sapproach to building fandom
around kind of all activitieswith the recording academy so
like?
So in one respect I wouldimagine you spend significant
efforts to build fandom aroundthe award show itself, but at
the same time I would imagine asignificant part of your role is
(05:24):
about engaging, like the tensof millions of social followers
from the nominated artists.
Like, how do you navigate thatin terms of where most of your
efforts spent in sort ofcapturing fandom and how you
think about it For sure.
John Loken (05:37):
I mean, when you get your nominated list of artists
and we're going to have our bignominations live stream on
november 8th, that's almost thecasting, if you will, for your
story and for the narrativesthat follow from november 8th to
february 2nd, when our, whenour, telecast happens, um, so
it's a natural thing to say,okay, we've got.
(05:58):
I don't know yet, but we willprobably have nominated music
from, you know, taylor, swift,from billy eilish, from beyonce.
You would be derelict in yourduties as a marketer if you
didn't somehow figure out how totap into those audiences,
because they're not only massiveaudiences, they're extremely
fervent, right, it's anextremely active audience.
(06:20):
And what's kind of cool about alot of this, too, is certain
artists have become really savvyabout creating lores and
legends within their ecosystem,you know.
So it's not just I put out analbum and I go on tour, it's I
drop different little eastereggs and putting out singles,
videos, posts.
(06:40):
Our job is to tap into that andto harness that.
And what's sometimes trickyabout it is people don't really
think about it this way.
But if you have eight artistsnominated for record of the year
, say, for every one artist whowins right, whose dreams come
true on that night and thedreams of their fans come true
(07:03):
on that night.
You have seven artists whosedreams are crushed and you have
seven fandoms whose dreams arecrushed.
And so we feel that we as abrand feel that big time in our
socials because people get, theytake it very personally.
You know they.
I mean half of half of oursocial posts.
(07:26):
You know there's alwayssomebody who comments you know
justice for nikki or whatever,like um, listen, this is, this
is the reality of a fandom, andso we try to harness it.
We try to tell a positive story.
Um, certainly we're very activein that sense from that sort of
November through Februaryperiod.
(07:46):
But the other thing I woulddefinitely point out is we spent
a lot of time over the last fewyears thinking about the 22,000
members, right, this kind ofcore nucleus.
A lot of these are verycelebrated artists and
personalities and creators andinfluencers in their own right.
Many of them get nominated.
Many of them have won lots ofGrammys.
(08:08):
That's a different type offandom that we need to tap into.
We've always historicallyavoided shining the spotlight on
voting members, because peoplewho are voting don't want to get
inundated with for yourconsideration.
Campaigns, consideration, umcampaigns, but um.
What we found this year anywayis that the new voting members
(08:29):
are extremely proud to have madeit into that echelon, and we've
used a lot of that content insocial as well.
People are sharing theirexcitement about what's coming
up this Grammy season.
Damian Bazadona (08:40):
Just talk, just can we talk through some of the
, the uh called the, theattributes of the fan bases that
you think kind of get it rightand we don't need to name names
as much.
You'll feel free, I suppose.
But but really I feel likeyou've you see, the ones, the
fan bases, that you just feellike there's a either a deep
connection or they just have theability to, I don't know, drive
them to action, like, are thereany attributes?
(09:02):
You see that you kind of likelearnings you could take from
that that you feel like youcould share.
John Loken (09:05):
Yeah, that's a great question, Um, I hadn't really
thought about it, but I thinkthat, um, vulnerability and just
being very transparent aboutwho you are, I think we're
seeing something reallyinteresting playing out right
now with Chapel Roan.
Um, you've seen this in sports.
You've seen this in a fewdifferent areas, where people
(09:27):
are willing to be a little bitmore kind of hard on their
sleeve and talk about the thingsthat they're thrilled about,
but also to talk again veryauthentically, about the things
that they're worried about,including their mental wellness.
That's part of it, I think, abig part of it.
For anybody who publishes insocial media, whether you're an
(09:47):
artist or the Grammy Awards, ithas to be a conversation.
I think what we've really seenover the last few years is and
by that I mean a two-waydialogue right, we actually just
hired a social content producerwhose sole responsibility is to
engage with the community.
And again, the next timesomebody says you know justice
(10:10):
for Nikki, ask them what thatmeans you know and use it as an
opportunity.
Again, we're not trying topersuade people, but if we could
educate them even just a littlebit about how the process works
and to maybe take a little bitof the venom out of some of that
.
I think that is hugely helpful.
Peter Yagecic (10:34):
Fandom Unpacked is brought to you by Situation,
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(10:55):
Now back to our Q&A.
Damian Bazadona (11:02):
I took my son to a Travis Scott concert at
MetLife Stadium two weeks ago orsomething like that, and you
know I got up to speed with alot of his music and stuff.
But what's fascinating to me,during the concert he looked
about halfway through.
He looks at the VIP deck andpoints at them and says I hate
VIPs, I hate you Like, I hateyou pretty much Right, right,
(11:23):
the whole place goes nuts and Ithink even people in the VIP
section were like you're right,they spent thousands of dollars,
right, and it is to his the ofhow he carries himself and how
he thinks about, like,connecting with people.
So the idea of the idea, theidea of VIP, even though they
exist, it was a fascinating butyet makes total sense with him,
with Travis Scott in particular,which I think he could see, the
(11:44):
love from the, the audience,the whole stadium, um, it was
kind of fascinating to me.
I said what other, what otheryou know field can you do that
where you blast the people whospend the most money on your
brand?
John Loken (11:55):
Well, it's funny, I was getting dragged to Lana Del
Rey concerts because mygirlfriend just is a super fan,
she's a complete nut, and Lanadoes something really
interesting in the middle of hershow.
She will just stop the musicand she will get off the stage
and she'll just start talking tofans one-on-one, and they're
giving her flowers and you know,the other 12,000, 18,000 people
(12:17):
are kind of like what are wedoing?
But again, it's really aboutholding space.
It's about having this directconnection that says and this is
, by the way, I think it'sremarkable, this is completely
different from the world,certainly that I grew up in.
The world I grew up in, youwould buy a ticket to go see a
band that you loved at a stadiumor an arena and there was such
(12:38):
a distance, right, there wassuch a kind of a mystery and we
thought these people were godsright.
And again, same in sportsseparation between the life of
(13:00):
that deity right and me as acommoner, as a fan, and all of
that.
I think social drives us right.
All of that has been erased.
Um, where, uh, the artists whoget it and who do well,
absolutely just embrace it andto a sometimes, you know, really
interesting and odd extent, uh,peter, I think we have a
question we do.
Peter Yagecic (13:18):
Well, I'm going to.
First of all, when you toldthat story about the I hate VIPs
, I thought you were saying yourson was saying that and I was
going to say that's a differentconversation.
Damian Bazadona (13:27):
And trust me, we did not buy the VIP ticket.
Peter Yagecic (13:31):
Well, I wanted to pull on something, john, that
you said a little bit about you.
I wanted to pull on something,john, that you said a little bit
about the Easter eggs thatartists are creating in their
songs and their videos and theirsocial media posts, and relate
it to what you said about therole that you just hired to do
the production and help you guysout with your social media and
engage in that conversation.
Is crafting these kinds ofengagements something that a lot
(13:55):
of artists want to embracethemselves, like Lana Del Rey
having those one-on-oneconversations, or are they
outsourcing it?
And do you have any sense ofwhat's the risk there of
somebody finding out that youweren't really talking to the
artist but that you were talkingto their social media team?
John Loken (14:19):
you know their social media team.
From my experience, it used tobe that it was the rarity, the
artist who really wanted toauthentically engage.
And you started to see thischange around 2003,.
2004, with Friendster and thenMySpace, where the savvier
musicians I used to be in.
At that time I ran anindependent label that was all
about punk rock and we had bandsout on the Warped Tour and it
(14:39):
was the ones who would reallyembrace that 20 years ago.
You know, from an artist or acreator perspective, this is a
new muscle.
This is a completely differentsort of way of being.
You know you create art, ofcourse, but now you also are
creating community.
Essentially, fast forward 20years now.
(14:59):
The exception is the artist whodoesn't really want to get
involved, not to call people out.
You do see sometimes in thesocial media feeds of some of
the older, maybe moretraditional artists where it's
pretty clear they're not theones with their you know, thumbs
on the on the screen, um, butuh, I would say the majority now
(15:22):
are absolutely hands-on.
And if they're not directlyhands-on, again, like if you're
beyonce, you have a team, um,but you're almost certainly
involved in those decisions asto what is being posted each day
, each week.
You would never kind of takeyour eyes and hands off of that
process.
Peter Yagecic (15:42):
Got it.
One of the questions that camein from our attendees was about
recognition.
So at award shows many artistsmake sure they thank their fans
first and foremost, like at theGrammys, for whatever
recognition they just received.
Has there been an evolution inthe ways that music artists
think thank their fans in recentyears beyond the shout out from
(16:05):
the podium?
How are you seeing any trendsin maybe using social media
platforms for artists to takethat thanks even further to
their fans?
John Loken (16:18):
I will say that this is a peculiar question to
answer for the Recording Academyand the Grammys specifically,
because our award is not a fanaward, unlike People's Choice.
Unlike, I think, the VMAs isvoted on by fans.
I think the American MusicAwards, if I'm not mistaken,
(16:39):
used to be voted on by fans.
Ours isn't.
Music Awards, if I'm notmistaken, used to be voted on by
fans.
Ours isn't.
So I actually wish that whenpeople got up, they would thank
the 13,000 people who voted forthem, and some of them do Again.
You see this a little bit morewith the Oscars, with the Emmys,
where they will thank theAcademy, literally the musicians
, in our case, the creators whovoted for them.
(17:01):
But I do think that this is partof what we're talking about,
which is artists recognize, um,that fans pay their bills.
I mean it's ironic to hear thattravis is yelling or calling
out the vip, uh folks, becausethose are absolutely the people
that are helping him buy hisfourth mansion in Telluride or
(17:23):
whatever.
I think, as the live side ofthe business has really come to
dominate how at least that topsort of 1% or 5% of artists
makes their money, theyabsolutely shout out to the fans
because these are the peoplethat buy tickets, and 75% of the
income for these folks isderived from live touring and
(17:47):
sponsorship, and all of that isfan-driven.
So I think, if anything, we'rejust going to see that kind of
trend increase where it's justmore and more about the people
that got you there and theyrecognize that.
Damian Bazadona (17:59):
Yeah, I also in the Travis Scott concert, the.
What I also I appreciate is heput a lot of his fans up on
stage and let them rage on stageand it just it's.
It does scream of authenticity,of like to his core base.
It's kind of remarkable.
It's an incredible showRecognizing.
There's a crazy pass there.
How do you, how do youtransform casual engagers into
(18:27):
diehard fans?
You're in organizations goingyear-round.
You have this obviously majorGrammys moment.
How do you kind of keep up theengagement ongoing?
And so how do you think aboutthat?
Because everyone looks forwardto the award show and then the
award show's over and your joband your entire team's job.
It's like how, how do you thinkabout that?
Because you know everyone looksforward to the award show and
then the award show is over andyour job and your entire team's
job.
It's like how do we keep thatpulse going?
John Loken (18:47):
Obviously, following the telecast, our storytelling
changes and we start to focusmore on the work that we do for
music makers year round, theability to harness all that
interest right, whether Istarted following you because
I'm part of the beehive or Istarted following you because
you know I'm a Swifty orwhatever.
(19:08):
But now you've got my attentionand now I see that you're in
Washington DC advocating for therights of human music creators.
Well, what's that?
What's that about?
Oh, well, turns out thatartificial intelligence is
potentially quite risky to thedistribution and creation of
music.
Oh, tell me more.
So, whether it's through ouremail network or social
(19:32):
followership, we have been ableto shift a little bit and to
talk about that and shine thespotlight on that as a means to
retain the new followers.
As a means to retain the newfollowers, and so far so good.
We've seen much lower attritionrates over the last six months
than we typically do.
So I think every brand isdifferent.
Our brand is incrediblyepisodic, you know.
(19:53):
Last thing I'll just say is it'sreally tricky.
The analogy I always give isimagine you're the manager of
the Gap and you're at this malland your store.
Your Gap is only open forbusiness one day a year, and so
you have to make all of yourproduct decisions, your staffing
decisions, your pricingdecisions, your advertising
(20:16):
decisions, everything based onone little window of data.
Based on one little window ofdata.
And then the store closes andthen you have to start planning
for your big one-day sale thenext year.
It's hard and you don't havetime to iterate in real time.
There is no real time.
It's one day, essentially.
Peter, do you want to takethese?
Peter Yagecic (20:36):
Yeah, we got a couple more questions that have
come in.
It seems like there's a shiftnow where in the past
entertainers would openthemselves up more, hire a team,
et cetera to connect with fans.
Now it seems entertainers'celebrity status is forming as
social following grows and thenthey break into different
outlets.
Do you think the change in howcelebrities build their fame has
(20:56):
impacted the way fans engagethem?
John Loken (20:59):
100%.
We think of artists like ladygaga, um, now as much as an
actress, as a musician, um, youknow, and and travis, and and
rihanna with fenty, like there'sall these different examples
now where, because they moveinto these sort of adjacent
(21:21):
spaces, there's newopportunities for fandom.
Literally, the fandom itselfcan become richer.
So I may not be a fan ofsomeone's music, but I love
their sneaker line, so it reallydoes expand the sphere pretty
dramatically.
Peter Yagecic (21:40):
Yeah, or maybe they started with a podcast and
then moved into exactly.
Exactly Um.
Another question from uh wantedto get in here.
The Grammys have so manycategories and some are very
specific types of music.
How do you help the lessmainstream celebrate their
fandoms?
This?
John Loken (21:59):
is so cool.
It almost seems like y'all havebeen following me around in my
calendar for the last weekbecause this has literally all
been discussed in meetingswithin the last few days.
We did a call I think it wasMonday or sorry, it was last
Monday with the independentmusic community, the Sunday
(22:23):
morning called the premierceremony.
That's where we give out 84Grammy awards.
That's sort of the non-telecastawards, and in that you have the
classical field, you have thejazz field, you have country,
you have rap, you have jazz, youhave all these different
categories, and so it is fandomwrit large, because these are
kind of silos, right, I meanthere's some Venn diagram
between classical fans andhip-hop fans, but it's not huge,
(22:46):
and so it's really a placewhere you have to tell sort of
individual stories targeted tothose niches.
Our solution for this is thatwe want to invite just in the
case of the independent musicscene, we want to invite more of
the independent media into thepremiere ceremony and possibly
(23:07):
into our social feeds leading in, so that some of these little
niches, these communities, thesemicro-communities, feel like
they're a part of the biggerGrammy story.
To me, it's not about the sizeof the audience, it's about the
passion and the noise that thataudience can make, and how
authentic they are to their, totheir, community damian,
(23:30):
anything else that you wanted totry to hit on before we start
wrapping up?
Damian Bazadona (23:34):
no, I think we got through most of the
questions, which is awesome.
I thank you everyone forsubmitting the questions.
I feel like we covered a lotand and I would just say john is
always giving with his time, wego way back and I feel like
we've geeked out on experientiallive theater, sports, you name
it.
He brings just an awesomecuriosity and generosity.
So I genuinely appreciate yourtime and I feel like we might
have to pull you back for a parttwo after the show.
(23:54):
We could do kind of a beforeand after.
Let's appreciate it.
Thank you.
John Loken (24:05):
Well, thank you guys .
This is a really funopportunity, and do add me to
the list because I want to comeback and join more of these.
Peter Yagecic (24:11):
That's going to do it for this episode of Fandom
Unpacked the podcast.
If you liked what you heard,please be sure to leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
Find out how to join us livefor an upcoming recording at
SituationLivecom slash fan.
We'll see you next time, truebelievers.
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