February 27, 2025 • 26 mins
Ever wonder why people proudly wear PBS merchandise as a badge of identity when nobody's sporting ABC t-shirts? Amy Wigler, Vice President of Multiplatform Marketing and Content for PBS, reveals the secret sauce behind one of America's most beloved media brands.
"Your memories of PBS take you back to a time... it's visceral," explains Wigler, describing how the network creates powerful emotional connections that transcend generations. This nostalgic bond serves as both a blessing and a challenge—how does a legacy brand honor its past while staying relevant today?
The conversation delves into the critical distinction between passive audiences and active fandoms. "Audiences create hits. Fandoms create phenomena," Wigler asserts, drawing from her experience with commercial successes like RuPaul's Drag Race and Broadway's Footloose. At PBS, where marketing budgets can't compete with commercial networks, fan evangelism becomes essential. The authentic community around PBS programming creates a special relationship commercial networks struggle to achieve despite considerable resources.
PBS's status as America's most trusted institution for 22 consecutive years stems from rigorous standards and a commitment to non-commercial content. "We are never trying to sell you something," Wigler notes, explaining why parents trust PBS without reservation. This dedication to integrity, while sometimes limiting from a marketing perspective, has created an unparalleled level of audience trust.
From strategic platform-specific content promotion to balancing nostalgia with innovation, Wigler offers a masterclass in nurturing multi-generational brand affinity. Whether you're a marketer, a PBS fan, or simply curious about how beloved institutions maintain relevance, this conversation provides valuable insights into the power of authentic connection in today's media landscape.
Recorded Thursday, February 27th, 2025
Hosts: Damian Bazadona, CEO & Founder, Situation, & Jordan Person, Managing Partner, Town Hall
Guest: Amy Wigler, Vice President of Multiplatform Marketing and Content, PBS
Producer: Peter Yagecic, Innovation Advisor, Situation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Yagecic (00:19):
Thank you, partner for our sister agency,
town Hall, jordan Person.
They'll be chatting with VicePresident of Multi-Platform
Marketing and Content for PBS,amy Weigler.
We wouldn't be here todaywithout listeners like you.
Here's Damien to get thingsstarted.
Damian Bazadona (00:35):
First off, I'm so excited to do this.
Amy and I go way back, but I'dsay Amy's the intersection of
kind and smart, my kind ofpeople, and so I'm just really
thanks for doing this, amy.
I know you got a lot going on,so I appreciate you taking the
time to do it.
And I know PBS we've alreadyseen by the response.
This is a big topic that peopleare very interested in.
I have just the one burningquestion I have is and you've
(00:57):
worked in the TV business,you've worked in the theater
business, you've seen a lot ofbrand and fandom around
different brands.
What is it about the PBS brand?
The special sauce, themarketer's dream of people's
affinity towards the brand.
People wear them the hats, thetote bag, like it's like a sense
(01:17):
of identity and I find itawesome.
And how would you?
Amy Wigler (01:25):
describe that special sauce that we also
envious of.
Well, you know I created that.
No, there's something I wastrying to think of what it is.
First of all, when I got aphone call from pbs and they
were interested in hiring amarketer, I I was like, oh my
God, like what an incredibleopportunity to combine mission
(01:46):
and media.
I love media, I love popculture, but I also really do
believe in the mission of PBS,and so it was.
It was thrilling for me for theexact reason that you said.
I also feel like we're at atime where letting your inner
nerd shine is acceptable andapplauded and I love that.
But if I had to say what Ithink it is is it takes you back
(02:11):
, thinking.
Your memories of PBS take youback to a time it's it's
visceral where you were asimpler time.
I joke about it.
I think about the time I'd sitin my house on the couch with my
brother and we would play Ernieand Bert, and he was always
Bert he's such a Bert and itjust it's a joyful, joyful time
(02:37):
and I feel that's it.
It's visceral.
Your memories of childhood willstay with you.
And then what it means to younow, whether it's Downton Abbey.
Or it's Nova or it's my dogbarking in the background.
Sorry, but it takes you back.
Damian Bazadona (02:59):
Well, I just sort of my own relationship to
it, obviously as a kid growingup with it and now I have
children, them, growing up withit and, I would imagine, as a
marketer again.
Like that's kind of interesting.
It's got to be both excitingand challenging right At the
same time of you have how do youkind of connect the legacy of
people connecting with it andbringing new audiences in over
time?
I just have never seen a brandas good as PBS is doing it.
(03:19):
So it's just it explains whythere's such a deep connection
to it.
Jordan let me let Jordan in.
And so Jordan is kind of themastermind on our mission-driven
side of the business and I knowyou have a lot of questions, so
I'm going to pass it to you todrop some knowledge for us.
Jordan Person (03:37):
Great.
Well, I mean, maybe I'll justbuild on what you two were
talking about, because you know,amy, it's funny even listening
to you talk about, you know,sitting on the couch with your
brother and fighting over who'sBert and who's Ernie.
I'm reminded of, and slightlyembarrassed to say I remember
sitting on the couch next to myson while he was watching Mr
Rogers and I was pregnant withmy second and I was, like,
(03:59):
sobbing, sitting on the couchnext to him watching it, you
know, and he's looking at melike what's wrong, mommy, and to
your point, it's like thisvisceral connection that you
have to this material and towhat it kind of evokes in you.
And I guess you know, kind ofbuilding on what you're both
talking about, with thatnostalgia factor I'm wondering
(04:20):
about.
You know, how you think aboutthe value of the back catalog,
how you think about balancingsome of that iconic classic
programming that genuinely holdsits value beyond just being
nostalgic.
It's genuinely holds its valuetoday, to your point on, just
like learning and kind ofreleasing your inner nerd.
How do you think aboutbalancing that against some of
(04:43):
the new programming that is justas valuable and creating its
own kind of place in the iconicPBS catalog?
Amy Wigler (04:54):
I think it's so interesting.
For me it was Sesame Street Iwasn't an electric company kind
of kid, but God do I remember itand for me it was Sesame Street
.
That's what made me fall inlove.
But on social media it's veryinteresting on the individual
(05:17):
platforms which brands ChalkKids brands resonate and we use
nostalgia a lot for fandom.
We use nostalgia a lot forfandom.
It really is a wonderful thing.
So, for example, on TikTok it'sthe 2000s, it's Ruff Ruffman,
it's Arthur, it's Daniel Tiger.
(05:39):
On Insta it's much more aboutthe 90s era, there's Fetch and
there's Magic School Bus.
So it depends on the platformwhere we'll leverage the
promotion of the back catalog.
Our goal with the back catalogis truly that Use it to make you
(06:01):
remember how much you lovedthis brand and then make you
check us out where we are today,Because I don't know if you
have a child and you've seenCarl the Collector, it handles
itself as well as anything else.
Or Lila and the Loop, orEleanor Wonders why, or there's
(06:21):
just so much for new fans.
And then also I look at thedrama content, I look at the
news content.
There's so much there.
We just need to be front ofmind.
So if I need to leverage mylegacy to put our brand back in
front of mind.
I will do so front of mind.
Jordan Person (06:47):
I will do so.
Well, one of the things thatyou mentioned when you were
answering that question is youused, you connected the idea of
the value of the back catalog tokind of activate fandom, and
you know the series is calledFandom Unpacked.
We use the word fans a lot whenwe're talking about their
relationship to these brands,but and I guess this is like
revealing the language nerd inme we also use the word
(07:11):
audiences a lot and I'mwondering what you think, if you
think there's a differencebetween fans and audiences,
because I think sometimes we usethose words interchangeably.
But I'm wondering maybe they'renot interchangeable.
What's your take on that?
Amy Wigler (07:21):
I have been obsessed with fandoms my career, my
whole career.
I talk about it.
The first musical I worked onwas Footloose the Musical, and
we had an audience.
It wasn't sizable at first, butwe also had fans.
And we found a fandom inteenage girls this was the late
(07:42):
90s, the heyday of the boy bandera.
Teenage girls this was the late90s, the heyday of the boy band
era and young teenagers I think, like our staff at the time,
where we are 33% higher at ouryouth our people under 20 than
any other show on Broadway likewe noticed that there was this
fandom and what they did a fanevangelizes.
(08:02):
They don't just want what theywant for themselves, they want
what they want for the world.
They want to share this love.
There's community in fandom.
I don't know if there'scommunity in audience.
There's community andevangelists and fandom.
And then I saw it with Drag Race, with RuPaul's Drag Race, which
(08:23):
I worked on for 14 years and um, god, what an extraordinary
thing to watch communitiesgather to celebrate this art
that was created.
Um.
And it started with with, oncemore with a very small subset of
(08:44):
the audience, and then itexpanded.
They, the super fans of theproject, brought in there those
who were like-minded and itbecame a phenomenon.
I say this audiences create cancreate a hit.
Fandoms can create a phenomenon.
Jordan Person (09:05):
I love that.
That's so interesting, the ideaof almost like audiences kind
of being, to your point, veryimportant, very critical, but
almost static in a way, and thenfandom kind of being this like
X factor, this kinetic energythat can change the outcome of a
piece of property, whateverthat might be.
So that actually leads me toyour background, which you just
(09:28):
gave two great examples on theworld of commercial theater
spending many years at Viacomworking on beloved hits like
RuPaul's Drag Race.
Do you think there's adifference between being a fan
of a commercial property versusbeing a fan of a non-commercial
property?
I mean, pbs is a nonprofit, pbsis an institution.
How do you see a differencethere?
Amy Wigler (09:51):
at all.
I talk about this.
I don't know if this makessense, if this tracks, so you
can say that's crazy, but NBC,cbs, abc have been around longer
than we have, but nobody wearsa T-shirt that says ABC.
There's not a fandom there.
(10:12):
I think when you don't have thebudget and commercial although
I've worked for some brands thathave had some budgets I've
never known anyone who said, oh,we have just the right amount
of money to build something.
When you don't have a budgetthat others do, god, it helps to
have a fandom.
So I would say we need it more.
(10:34):
I don't have.
You know, NBC now has such anincredible universe of
properties where they can crosspromote.
Disney has a phenomenal fandomand they also have a universe of
properties that they cancross-promote and they have
budget.
I don't, so I rely a lot harderon my fans for my word of mouth
(10:59):
.
Jordan Person (11:00):
Well, that's really interesting because it
almost to go back to even thekind of point of view you shared
on audiences versus fans.
It makes me think, you know,from a marketing and advertising
perspective, you can buyaudiences but you can't buy fans
, and you know, kind of like toyour point, what is that?
The importance of that when youare, when you have to do more
(11:22):
with less and that's a phraseactually you've brought to me
and my team over the years is doless better, which I love.
I find myself saying that allthe time and it forces that kind
of ruthless efficiency withyour resources when you think
about it through that lens.
Amy Wigler (11:40):
Unscripted town hall plug.
You guys have been very, veryhelpful with do more with less.
When we came to you, we knew wehad a social media following.
We are watching what is workingand what is not, but we did not
know how to quantify so it washard to say do less, better, do
what.
If you're doing what is it?
(12:03):
The old saying is I know 50% ofmy marketing is working, I just
don't know which 50%, and youhave been very, very helpful in
providing a laser focus for whatwe're doing that's working.
So do more of that becomes aneasier question and I appreciate
it.
Jordan Person (12:19):
Oh, thank you.
That's very generous.
And not to turn this into alove fest, but what I'll say,
what I think what helpsfacilitate some of that work, is
the kind of growth mindset thatI see A you model to your team,
but your team also has of thisopenness to kind of say
anything's on the table, in withfixed assumptions or with a
(12:43):
sense of certainty about what orwhat might be working or what
or what might be right, butrather let's kind of explore
this together and I think that'sthe fun part of what marketing
and advertising is today is somuch of that kind of team
discovery, collaboration thatcan lead to some of those
insights.
Peter, I know that there's beensome questions that have come
(13:06):
through.
Do you want to take the?
Peter Yagecic (13:07):
reins, absolutely .
Yeah, we've gotten some justgeneral love, question like
question comments of just lovingthis conversation, but here's a
question that came in when wewere talking about the legacy.
It occurred to me that for mostof the people in the audience
today, pbs has always existedand likely formed many of their
earliest memories, as Damianalluded to.
What are the strengths of thatevergreen feeling, and maybe
(13:31):
some of the challenges of, of aninstitution that's been around
for so long?
Amy Wigler (13:36):
The challenges are real in that you want I want
people to love us for who we arenow.
I want to lean into their lovethat they had for us in the past
to remind them to check us outnow.
But the biggest issue with alegacy brand is you will always
love it for what it was, andwhat it is will never be what it
(13:58):
was, which is why I encouragepeople to check out something
like Carl the Collector or wehave All Creatures, great and
Small, which I just think isescapist joy or like that.
If you, if you ever were a fanof like absolute, serious,
hard-hitting news, frontlinedoes investigative journalism
(14:22):
like nobody else, investigativejournalism like nobody else.
And if you're tired ofalgorithmic hatred driving your
newsfeed, newshour is a prettysafe bet for very, very truthful
media Like we have.
So much.
The blessing and the curse of alegacy brand is so much the
(14:49):
blessing and the curse of alegacy brand is don't just love
us for who we were.
No-transcript, it's allavailable on the PBS app.
Jordan Person (14:56):
Well, I feel like along those lines.
I mean to your point.
You know I have a daughter whobelieves she is Daniel Tiger.
My son is obsessed with WildKratts, like we all get sucked
into watching Antiques Roadshow.
All Creatures, great and Small,I can't plug enough.
I feel like when I watch it,someone's giving me a warm hug,
and who doesn't need more hugsthese days?
(15:17):
Watch it, someone's giving me awarm hug, and who doesn't need
more hugs these days?
You know like and that's noteven mentioning Ken Burns, nova
Nature, a Chef's Life is like inthe food genre, one of just my
favorites from the catalog.
Outside of the challenge ofbalancing what's been versus
what today is how do you balancejust the diversity across
programming today, the diversityI mean even just in my own
(15:40):
family, the diversity of agesand people that are that you're
trying to reach, to draw to thisprogramming?
Amy Wigler (15:48):
It helps that I'm a genius and it's really hard,
it's really hard and I have a.
I have such a good team and wehave great agencies that really
help us.
It's really hard and I havesuch a good team and we have
great agencies that really helpus.
I think PBS's business modelsis such where a lot of our
producers create their own short, their own digital short form
(16:11):
content that we can elevate, andthey are true subject matters
experts.
We work with the kids team hastheir own social media team.
We listen to them and work withthem closely too.
We try and, for me, with whereI'm mostly promoting the
(16:34):
individual platforms is onsocial media and through
programmatic advertising, andthe platforms a lot of time
dictate which kind of show willresonate with which platform.
So, for example, um, if we havea documentary, we just did a
documentary um, it was in think2023 tiktok boom about it's
(16:56):
frontline.
I believe it's a frontlinedocumentary on the history of
TikTok and the show.
I know, or I say I, my team,knew, that this show in
particular would have tremendousappeal to 20-somethings, early
30-somethings, who are obsessedwith TikTok, and what a better
(17:22):
way to talk about this show thanto do a PBS film club on TikTok
and I think at last check ithad over a million views and
it's an incredible opportunityto customize my promotion of a
show for the platform that willresonate with the audience, and
(17:43):
we try and do that across theboard.
Peter Yagecic (17:49):
Fandom Unpacked is brought to you by Situation,
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We offer full marketing andcreative services for
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Check us out atSituationInteractivecom.
(18:09):
Now back to our Q&A.
Jordan Person (18:15):
You've been on the PBS team now almost five
years.
Over those five years, what'sbeen your proudest moment since
joining the team?
Amy Wigler (18:25):
I was so blessed that I got to accept the Webby
Award for Media Company of theYear on behalf of the
extraordinary work that the teamhas done.
I felt so blessed that I got tostand on that stage and, by the
way, afterwards Kara Swishersaid she really liked my
five-word speech, which wasthanks to viewers like you and
(18:49):
I'm obsessed with Kara and thatwas the highlight of my year
year.
But the fact that the webbiesrecognized that PBS is doing
digital media in a fresh way andlike my other five-year word
speak would have been take thatNetflix, youtube, hulu, but I
(19:12):
don't think that was very kindor PBS-y, so I didn't say that.
But it was a wonderful honor tosee that and I really do feel
slightly funky about it becauseI was sitting at a table of
humans who did most of the workand I got to go on stage and
(19:33):
Kara got to tell me that sheliked my speech and that was a
little awkward but God, it wasthe true highlight of my career
that must have been sovalidating for the whole team.
I hope they know how much Iappreciate them.
Jordan Person (19:51):
Oh, I'm sure I'm sure, well, I know we're coming
up on time and, peter, I knowthere's some questions.
Peter Yagecic (19:56):
Yeah, we have a couple more questions that we'd
love to get in and just oneeditorial note as someone who
cut the cord a couple of yearsago, the PBS app is fantastic.
It, compared to it Works, whichis some of them just don't you
know.
Being able to go in there andkind of browse through the back
catalog, it's phenomenal.
My husband and I do it all thetime.
Of browse through the backcatalog, it's phenomenal.
(20:18):
My husband and I do it all thetime.
Here's one that touches on thatmulti-generational fandom.
I fell in love with PBS when MrRogers was in his prime and my
nephew has also fallen in lovewith PBS through Daniel Tiger, a
program from the Mr Rogersneighborhood of make-believe.
Is there anything you dospecifically to foster that
multi-generational fandom?
Amy Wigler (20:36):
for me, that's what always on is.
We want to keep PBS in front ofthe pair, in front of as many
generations as we can through awide variety of programmatic
tactics to keep us from in amind, so that you're reminded of
why you love this and then youcan share it with someone you
love.
Um, I know that sounds so trite, but it really is.
(21:01):
I think it's not like I have abudget that I set aside for
multi-generational I wish I did.
It's much more about justtrying as much as I can to put
our content in front of peoplewho matter.
And then we also have somelearning media, which is the
(21:23):
educational arm of PBS.
I feel that helps a lot too.
So there's very—that puts ourcontent in front of students, so
that makes them want to go homeand talk about what they just
saw.
But at the end of the day— whatI just try and do is remind
(21:43):
people that we're here.
Jordan Person (21:46):
Well, it's also interesting just the idea of
trust and I think how that playsmulti-generationally.
You know, I as a parent I trynot to.
I try to let go of guilt that Ihave about things.
Sometimes I do have guilt Aremy kids spending too much time
on their screens?
What are they watching?
Do I really know what they'rewatching?
And I have to say there aretimes when I'm, you know,
(22:06):
yelling at my son like what areyou watching?
What is that?
And it's like I'm like what appis it on?
And he's like PBS kids.
I'm like great, okay, good andand.
And I think that's sointeresting that truly I have
just this strong sense of trustthat like I don't even know what
that is but whatever it is, Itrust that I'm good with you
watching it.
And that's when I kind of nerdout on the idea of like, what is
(22:32):
people's relationship to someof these institutions?
And to see how trust plays soheavily with PBS and how you all
have maintained that is soimpressive.
I don't know if there'sanything, amy, that you all do
really intentionally to try tonurture and maintain that trust
22 years, the most trustedinstitution.
Amy Wigler (22:50):
I think.
The courts are numbered behindus on this, which is shocking to
me.
We are unstinting in ourcommitment to our standards and
practices.
At times it drives me crazywhen I first know.
When I first started, I'm Icome.
I did a lot of partnershipmarketing.
That was my.
The last five years of Viacomwas really focused on
(23:13):
partnership and sponsorshipmarketing and I rely.
I look at some of the brandsthat we've built through other
people's money, Like I look atAbsolute and the first five
years of Drag Race.
There were 160 events plannedand paid for by Absolute to
elevate this show.
I don't do any of that at PBSbecause we are a non-commercial
(23:39):
entity and our standards andpractices are as buttoned up as
I know how to be, and it is.
They know how to be andwhenever there is a possibility
of quid pro quo, we step back,which I think builds a ton of
trust with a parent.
We are never trying to sell yousomething.
I live for Kelly Clarkson liketo a crazy lunatic standpoint.
(24:06):
I would trust her to tell me tobuy something, and sometimes
she does and she has a line at.
I think it's Wayfair.
Um, we don't do that we reallytry to do right by our consumers
, by keeping us asnon-commercial as possible.
Peter Yagecic (24:26):
So so this last audience question that I think
will be a good place to wrap.
People want to know how theycan help you in your cause.
So I'm a proud member of mylocal PBS station in New York
and PBS programming is veryimportant to me and my family.
What can I do to be a morevocal fan and ensure the future
of PBS both in New York City andnationally?
Amy Wigler (24:44):
the future of PBS, both in New York City and
nationally.
Tell us your PBS story.
Tell us why you're a viewerlike me.
You tell us your viewer like mestory.
Share it on social media.
If you're not that person Ihave a hard time doing that Then
(25:10):
, honestly, right now, the moreyou can do to evangelize the app
, get people to watch PBS um.
Get people to.
A lot of people don't even knowwe have an app and that that's
a place you can stream, streamprogramming um.
Follow us on social media.
Um.
What I want to show right nowis that there are viewers like
you all over the country forwhom this is a lifeblood, and if
(25:34):
you've got a story to tell andyou're not comfortable telling
it, follow us.
Listen to others, like andcomment.
Peter Yagecic (25:44):
That's going to do it for this episode of fandom
unpacked the podcast.
If you liked what you heard,please be sure to leave us a
review on apple podcasts.
Find out how to join us livefor an upcoming recording at
situationlivecom.
Fan.
We'll see you next time, truebelievers.
Thank you, partner for our sister agency,
town Hall, jordan Person.
They'll be chatting with VicePresident of Multi-Platform
Marketing and Content for PBS,amy Weigler.
We wouldn't be here todaywithout listeners like you.
Here's Damien to get thingsstarted.
Damian Bazadona (00:35):
First off, I'm so excited to do this.
Amy and I go way back, but I'dsay Amy's the intersection of
kind and smart, my kind ofpeople, and so I'm just really
thanks for doing this, amy.
I know you got a lot going on,so I appreciate you taking the
time to do it.
And I know PBS we've alreadyseen by the response.
This is a big topic that peopleare very interested in.
I have just the one burningquestion I have is and you've
(00:57):
worked in the TV business,you've worked in the theater
business, you've seen a lot ofbrand and fandom around
different brands.
What is it about the PBS brand?
The special sauce, themarketer's dream of people's
affinity towards the brand.
People wear them the hats, thetote bag, like it's like a sense
(01:17):
of identity and I find itawesome.
And how would you?
Amy Wigler (01:25):
describe that special sauce that we also
envious of.
Well, you know I created that.
No, there's something I wastrying to think of what it is.
First of all, when I got aphone call from pbs and they
were interested in hiring amarketer, I I was like, oh my
God, like what an incredibleopportunity to combine mission
(01:46):
and media.
I love media, I love popculture, but I also really do
believe in the mission of PBS,and so it was.
It was thrilling for me for theexact reason that you said.
I also feel like we're at atime where letting your inner
nerd shine is acceptable andapplauded and I love that.
But if I had to say what Ithink it is is it takes you back
(02:11):
, thinking.
Your memories of PBS take youback to a time it's it's
visceral where you were asimpler time.
I joke about it.
I think about the time I'd sitin my house on the couch with my
brother and we would play Ernieand Bert, and he was always
Bert he's such a Bert and itjust it's a joyful, joyful time
(02:37):
and I feel that's it.
It's visceral.
Your memories of childhood willstay with you.
And then what it means to younow, whether it's Downton Abbey.
Or it's Nova or it's my dogbarking in the background.
Sorry, but it takes you back.
Damian Bazadona (02:59):
Well, I just sort of my own relationship to
it, obviously as a kid growingup with it and now I have
children, them, growing up withit and, I would imagine, as a
marketer again.
Like that's kind of interesting.
It's got to be both excitingand challenging right At the
same time of you have how do youkind of connect the legacy of
people connecting with it andbringing new audiences in over
time?
I just have never seen a brandas good as PBS is doing it.
(03:19):
So it's just it explains whythere's such a deep connection
to it.
Jordan let me let Jordan in.
And so Jordan is kind of themastermind on our mission-driven
side of the business and I knowyou have a lot of questions, so
I'm going to pass it to you todrop some knowledge for us.
Jordan Person (03:37):
Great.
Well, I mean, maybe I'll justbuild on what you two were
talking about, because you know,amy, it's funny even listening
to you talk about, you know,sitting on the couch with your
brother and fighting over who'sBert and who's Ernie.
I'm reminded of, and slightlyembarrassed to say I remember
sitting on the couch next to myson while he was watching Mr
Rogers and I was pregnant withmy second and I was, like,
(03:59):
sobbing, sitting on the couchnext to him watching it, you
know, and he's looking at melike what's wrong, mommy, and to
your point, it's like thisvisceral connection that you
have to this material and towhat it kind of evokes in you.
And I guess you know, kind ofbuilding on what you're both
talking about, with thatnostalgia factor I'm wondering
(04:20):
about.
You know, how you think aboutthe value of the back catalog,
how you think about balancingsome of that iconic classic
programming that genuinely holdsits value beyond just being
nostalgic.
It's genuinely holds its valuetoday, to your point on, just
like learning and kind ofreleasing your inner nerd.
How do you think aboutbalancing that against some of
(04:43):
the new programming that is justas valuable and creating its
own kind of place in the iconicPBS catalog?
Amy Wigler (04:54):
I think it's so interesting.
For me it was Sesame Street Iwasn't an electric company kind
of kid, but God do I remember itand for me it was Sesame Street
.
That's what made me fall inlove.
But on social media it's veryinteresting on the individual
(05:17):
platforms which brands ChalkKids brands resonate and we use
nostalgia a lot for fandom.
We use nostalgia a lot forfandom.
It really is a wonderful thing.
So, for example, on TikTok it'sthe 2000s, it's Ruff Ruffman,
it's Arthur, it's Daniel Tiger.
(05:39):
On Insta it's much more aboutthe 90s era, there's Fetch and
there's Magic School Bus.
So it depends on the platformwhere we'll leverage the
promotion of the back catalog.
Our goal with the back catalogis truly that Use it to make you
(06:01):
remember how much you lovedthis brand and then make you
check us out where we are today,Because I don't know if you
have a child and you've seenCarl the Collector, it handles
itself as well as anything else.
Or Lila and the Loop, orEleanor Wonders why, or there's
(06:21):
just so much for new fans.
And then also I look at thedrama content, I look at the
news content.
There's so much there.
We just need to be front ofmind.
So if I need to leverage mylegacy to put our brand back in
front of mind.
I will do so front of mind.
Jordan Person (06:47):
I will do so.
Well, one of the things thatyou mentioned when you were
answering that question is youused, you connected the idea of
the value of the back catalog tokind of activate fandom, and
you know the series is calledFandom Unpacked.
We use the word fans a lot whenwe're talking about their
relationship to these brands,but and I guess this is like
revealing the language nerd inme we also use the word
(07:11):
audiences a lot and I'mwondering what you think, if you
think there's a differencebetween fans and audiences,
because I think sometimes we usethose words interchangeably.
But I'm wondering maybe they'renot interchangeable.
What's your take on that?
Amy Wigler (07:21):
I have been obsessed with fandoms my career, my
whole career.
I talk about it.
The first musical I worked onwas Footloose the Musical, and
we had an audience.
It wasn't sizable at first, butwe also had fans.
And we found a fandom inteenage girls this was the late
(07:42):
90s, the heyday of the boy bandera.
Teenage girls this was the late90s, the heyday of the boy band
era and young teenagers I think, like our staff at the time,
where we are 33% higher at ouryouth our people under 20 than
any other show on Broadway likewe noticed that there was this
fandom and what they did a fanevangelizes.
(08:02):
They don't just want what theywant for themselves, they want
what they want for the world.
They want to share this love.
There's community in fandom.
I don't know if there'scommunity in audience.
There's community andevangelists and fandom.
And then I saw it with Drag Race, with RuPaul's Drag Race, which
(08:23):
I worked on for 14 years and um, god, what an extraordinary
thing to watch communitiesgather to celebrate this art
that was created.
Um.
And it started with with, oncemore with a very small subset of
(08:44):
the audience, and then itexpanded.
They, the super fans of theproject, brought in there those
who were like-minded and itbecame a phenomenon.
I say this audiences create cancreate a hit.
Fandoms can create a phenomenon.
Jordan Person (09:05):
I love that.
That's so interesting, the ideaof almost like audiences kind
of being, to your point, veryimportant, very critical, but
almost static in a way, and thenfandom kind of being this like
X factor, this kinetic energythat can change the outcome of a
piece of property, whateverthat might be.
So that actually leads me toyour background, which you just
(09:28):
gave two great examples on theworld of commercial theater
spending many years at Viacomworking on beloved hits like
RuPaul's Drag Race.
Do you think there's adifference between being a fan
of a commercial property versusbeing a fan of a non-commercial
property?
I mean, pbs is a nonprofit, pbsis an institution.
How do you see a differencethere?
Amy Wigler (09:51):
at all.
I talk about this.
I don't know if this makessense, if this tracks, so you
can say that's crazy, but NBC,cbs, abc have been around longer
than we have, but nobody wearsa T-shirt that says ABC.
There's not a fandom there.
(10:12):
I think when you don't have thebudget and commercial although
I've worked for some brands thathave had some budgets I've
never known anyone who said, oh,we have just the right amount
of money to build something.
When you don't have a budgetthat others do, god, it helps to
have a fandom.
So I would say we need it more.
(10:34):
I don't have.
You know, NBC now has such anincredible universe of
properties where they can crosspromote.
Disney has a phenomenal fandomand they also have a universe of
properties that they cancross-promote and they have
budget.
I don't, so I rely a lot harderon my fans for my word of mouth
(10:59):
.
Jordan Person (11:00):
Well, that's really interesting because it
almost to go back to even thekind of point of view you shared
on audiences versus fans.
It makes me think, you know,from a marketing and advertising
perspective, you can buyaudiences but you can't buy fans
, and you know, kind of like toyour point, what is that?
The importance of that when youare, when you have to do more
(11:22):
with less and that's a phraseactually you've brought to me
and my team over the years is doless better, which I love.
I find myself saying that allthe time and it forces that kind
of ruthless efficiency withyour resources when you think
about it through that lens.
Amy Wigler (11:40):
Unscripted town hall plug.
You guys have been very, veryhelpful with do more with less.
When we came to you, we knew wehad a social media following.
We are watching what is workingand what is not, but we did not
know how to quantify so it washard to say do less, better, do
what.
If you're doing what is it?
(12:03):
The old saying is I know 50% ofmy marketing is working, I just
don't know which 50%, and youhave been very, very helpful in
providing a laser focus for whatwe're doing that's working.
So do more of that becomes aneasier question and I appreciate
it.
Jordan Person (12:19):
Oh, thank you.
That's very generous.
And not to turn this into alove fest, but what I'll say,
what I think what helpsfacilitate some of that work, is
the kind of growth mindset thatI see A you model to your team,
but your team also has of thisopenness to kind of say
anything's on the table, in withfixed assumptions or with a
(12:43):
sense of certainty about what orwhat might be working or what
or what might be right, butrather let's kind of explore
this together and I think that'sthe fun part of what marketing
and advertising is today is somuch of that kind of team
discovery, collaboration thatcan lead to some of those
insights.
Peter, I know that there's beensome questions that have come
(13:06):
through.
Do you want to take the?
Peter Yagecic (13:07):
reins, absolutely .
Yeah, we've gotten some justgeneral love, question like
question comments of just lovingthis conversation, but here's a
question that came in when wewere talking about the legacy.
It occurred to me that for mostof the people in the audience
today, pbs has always existedand likely formed many of their
earliest memories, as Damianalluded to.
What are the strengths of thatevergreen feeling, and maybe
(13:31):
some of the challenges of, of aninstitution that's been around
for so long?
Amy Wigler (13:36):
The challenges are real in that you want I want
people to love us for who we arenow.
I want to lean into their lovethat they had for us in the past
to remind them to check us outnow.
But the biggest issue with alegacy brand is you will always
love it for what it was, andwhat it is will never be what it
(13:58):
was, which is why I encouragepeople to check out something
like Carl the Collector or wehave All Creatures, great and
Small, which I just think isescapist joy or like that.
If you, if you ever were a fanof like absolute, serious,
hard-hitting news, frontlinedoes investigative journalism
(14:22):
like nobody else, investigativejournalism like nobody else.
And if you're tired ofalgorithmic hatred driving your
newsfeed, newshour is a prettysafe bet for very, very truthful
media Like we have.
So much.
The blessing and the curse of alegacy brand is so much the
(14:49):
blessing and the curse of alegacy brand is don't just love
us for who we were.
No-transcript, it's allavailable on the PBS app.
Jordan Person (14:56):
Well, I feel like along those lines.
I mean to your point.
You know I have a daughter whobelieves she is Daniel Tiger.
My son is obsessed with WildKratts, like we all get sucked
into watching Antiques Roadshow.
All Creatures, great and Small,I can't plug enough.
I feel like when I watch it,someone's giving me a warm hug,
and who doesn't need more hugsthese days?
(15:17):
Watch it, someone's giving me awarm hug, and who doesn't need
more hugs these days?
You know like and that's noteven mentioning Ken Burns, nova
Nature, a Chef's Life is like inthe food genre, one of just my
favorites from the catalog.
Outside of the challenge ofbalancing what's been versus
what today is how do you balancejust the diversity across
programming today, the diversityI mean even just in my own
(15:40):
family, the diversity of agesand people that are that you're
trying to reach, to draw to thisprogramming?
Amy Wigler (15:48):
It helps that I'm a genius and it's really hard,
it's really hard and I have a.
I have such a good team and wehave great agencies that really
help us.
It's really hard and I havesuch a good team and we have
great agencies that really helpus.
I think PBS's business modelsis such where a lot of our
producers create their own short, their own digital short form
(16:11):
content that we can elevate, andthey are true subject matters
experts.
We work with the kids team hastheir own social media team.
We listen to them and work withthem closely too.
We try and, for me, with whereI'm mostly promoting the
(16:34):
individual platforms is onsocial media and through
programmatic advertising, andthe platforms a lot of time
dictate which kind of show willresonate with which platform.
So, for example, um, if we havea documentary, we just did a
documentary um, it was in think2023 tiktok boom about it's
(16:56):
frontline.
I believe it's a frontlinedocumentary on the history of
TikTok and the show.
I know, or I say I, my team,knew, that this show in
particular would have tremendousappeal to 20-somethings, early
30-somethings, who are obsessedwith TikTok, and what a better
(17:22):
way to talk about this show thanto do a PBS film club on TikTok
and I think at last check ithad over a million views and
it's an incredible opportunityto customize my promotion of a
show for the platform that willresonate with the audience, and
(17:43):
we try and do that across theboard.
Peter Yagecic (17:49):
Fandom Unpacked is brought to you by Situation,
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entertainment that champions thepower of unforgettable shared
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We offer full marketing andcreative services for
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Check us out atSituationInteractivecom.
(18:09):
Now back to our Q&A.
Jordan Person (18:15):
You've been on the PBS team now almost five
years.
Over those five years, what'sbeen your proudest moment since
joining the team?
Amy Wigler (18:25):
I was so blessed that I got to accept the Webby
Award for Media Company of theYear on behalf of the
extraordinary work that the teamhas done.
I felt so blessed that I got tostand on that stage and, by the
way, afterwards Kara Swishersaid she really liked my
five-word speech, which wasthanks to viewers like you and
(18:49):
I'm obsessed with Kara and thatwas the highlight of my year
year.
But the fact that the webbiesrecognized that PBS is doing
digital media in a fresh way andlike my other five-year word
speak would have been take thatNetflix, youtube, hulu, but I
(19:12):
don't think that was very kindor PBS-y, so I didn't say that.
But it was a wonderful honor tosee that and I really do feel
slightly funky about it becauseI was sitting at a table of
humans who did most of the workand I got to go on stage and
(19:33):
Kara got to tell me that sheliked my speech and that was a
little awkward but God, it wasthe true highlight of my career
that must have been sovalidating for the whole team.
I hope they know how much Iappreciate them.
Jordan Person (19:51):
Oh, I'm sure I'm sure, well, I know we're coming
up on time and, peter, I knowthere's some questions.
Peter Yagecic (19:56):
Yeah, we have a couple more questions that we'd
love to get in and just oneeditorial note as someone who
cut the cord a couple of yearsago, the PBS app is fantastic.
It, compared to it Works, whichis some of them just don't you
know.
Being able to go in there andkind of browse through the back
catalog, it's phenomenal.
My husband and I do it all thetime.
Of browse through the backcatalog, it's phenomenal.
(20:18):
My husband and I do it all thetime.
Here's one that touches on thatmulti-generational fandom.
I fell in love with PBS when MrRogers was in his prime and my
nephew has also fallen in lovewith PBS through Daniel Tiger, a
program from the Mr Rogersneighborhood of make-believe.
Is there anything you dospecifically to foster that
multi-generational fandom?
Amy Wigler (20:36):
for me, that's what always on is.
We want to keep PBS in front ofthe pair, in front of as many
generations as we can through awide variety of programmatic
tactics to keep us from in amind, so that you're reminded of
why you love this and then youcan share it with someone you
love.
Um, I know that sounds so trite, but it really is.
(21:01):
I think it's not like I have abudget that I set aside for
multi-generational I wish I did.
It's much more about justtrying as much as I can to put
our content in front of peoplewho matter.
And then we also have somelearning media, which is the
(21:23):
educational arm of PBS.
I feel that helps a lot too.
So there's very—that puts ourcontent in front of students, so
that makes them want to go homeand talk about what they just
saw.
But at the end of the day— whatI just try and do is remind
(21:43):
people that we're here.
Jordan Person (21:46):
Well, it's also interesting just the idea of
trust and I think how that playsmulti-generationally.
You know, I as a parent I trynot to.
I try to let go of guilt that Ihave about things.
Sometimes I do have guilt Aremy kids spending too much time
on their screens?
What are they watching?
Do I really know what they'rewatching?
And I have to say there aretimes when I'm, you know,
(22:06):
yelling at my son like what areyou watching?
What is that?
And it's like I'm like what appis it on?
And he's like PBS kids.
I'm like great, okay, good andand.
And I think that's sointeresting that truly I have
just this strong sense of trustthat like I don't even know what
that is but whatever it is, Itrust that I'm good with you
watching it.
And that's when I kind of nerdout on the idea of like, what is
(22:32):
people's relationship to someof these institutions?
And to see how trust plays soheavily with PBS and how you all
have maintained that is soimpressive.
I don't know if there'sanything, amy, that you all do
really intentionally to try tonurture and maintain that trust
22 years, the most trustedinstitution.
Amy Wigler (22:50):
I think.
The courts are numbered behindus on this, which is shocking to
me.
We are unstinting in ourcommitment to our standards and
practices.
At times it drives me crazywhen I first know.
When I first started, I'm Icome.
I did a lot of partnershipmarketing.
That was my.
The last five years of Viacomwas really focused on
(23:13):
partnership and sponsorshipmarketing and I rely.
I look at some of the brandsthat we've built through other
people's money, Like I look atAbsolute and the first five
years of Drag Race.
There were 160 events plannedand paid for by Absolute to
elevate this show.
I don't do any of that at PBSbecause we are a non-commercial
(23:39):
entity and our standards andpractices are as buttoned up as
I know how to be, and it is.
They know how to be andwhenever there is a possibility
of quid pro quo, we step back,which I think builds a ton of
trust with a parent.
We are never trying to sell yousomething.
I live for Kelly Clarkson liketo a crazy lunatic standpoint.
(24:06):
I would trust her to tell me tobuy something, and sometimes
she does and she has a line at.
I think it's Wayfair.
Um, we don't do that we reallytry to do right by our consumers
, by keeping us asnon-commercial as possible.
Peter Yagecic (24:26):
So so this last audience question that I think
will be a good place to wrap.
People want to know how theycan help you in your cause.
So I'm a proud member of mylocal PBS station in New York
and PBS programming is veryimportant to me and my family.
What can I do to be a morevocal fan and ensure the future
of PBS both in New York City andnationally?
Amy Wigler (24:44):
the future of PBS, both in New York City and
nationally.
Tell us your PBS story.
Tell us why you're a viewerlike me.
You tell us your viewer like mestory.
Share it on social media.
If you're not that person Ihave a hard time doing that Then
(25:10):
, honestly, right now, the moreyou can do to evangelize the app
, get people to watch PBS um.
Get people to.
A lot of people don't even knowwe have an app and that that's
a place you can stream, streamprogramming um.
Follow us on social media.
Um.
What I want to show right nowis that there are viewers like
you all over the country forwhom this is a lifeblood, and if
(25:34):
you've got a story to tell andyou're not comfortable telling
it, follow us.
Listen to others, like andcomment.
Peter Yagecic (25:44):
That's going to do it for this episode of fandom
unpacked the podcast.
If you liked what you heard,please be sure to leave us a
review on apple podcasts.
Find out how to join us livefor an upcoming recording at
situationlivecom.
Fan.
We'll see you next time, truebelievers.
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