Ready to demystify cockpit automation and overcome the challenges of flight deck digitization? Join us for an insightful conversation with our special guest, Barbara Sutton, as we explore the complexities of modern aviation. We discuss everything from human factors that affect pilots' performance to the importance of communication and mastering automation.
In this episode, we dive into the significance of descent planning and situational awareness while managing crossing restrictions. Barbara shares her wealth of knowledge on how pilots can make critical decisions under pressure, and how effective communication between pilots can ensure a smooth and secure flight. We also delve into the world of single-pilot operations, tackling the stigma and uncovering the secrets of their success in navigating complex airspace.
As we uncover the nuances of cockpit automation, Barbara emphasizes the importance of being able to fly an aircraft manually, and how an obsession with the newest technology can hinder pilots who haven't mastered these essential skills. We also discuss the differences between general aviation and transport category airplanes, as well as the costs of retrofitting fleets. So, buckle up and join us on this fascinating journey into the world of modern aviation, and learn how to stay in control, even when the skies get turbulent.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to part two this week of the Faray podcast.
If you joined us two weeks ago,you remember Barbara Suttonon.
We are talking, sometimes westay on aviation, sometimes we
even stay on the topic we'recovering, which is cockpit
automation, flight deckdigitization.
Did I say that right?
(00:24):
It's a hard word to sayDigitization.
Okay, Where do we leave off?
Were we done taxing?
even the last episode?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, I don't even know if we made it in the air.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We definitely didn't make it into the air.
We didn't talk about takeoff.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Let's fast forward, barb, let's fast forward.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
All right Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Our next phase Takeoff.
We got to take this thing off.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
We're still on the ground.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah Hour in.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'm in.
Listen, a lot of the things Isaid I last two weeks ago still
apply.
If you're taking off, or ifyou're climbing, or if you're in
cruise, right, If you'remonitoring those screens and
you're continuously monitoringthose screens, the human factors
are going to kick in.
You're going to have an issuewith your eyes, an issue with
(01:15):
fatigue, an issue with memory orwhatever.
Like any phase of flight thatyou're in, whether it's the
first leg or the second leg of atrip or a day or whatever it is
, those things are going togreatly affect your ability to
function properly in the cockpit.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
For sure In there.
I think maybe some people mayforget I'm sure you don't
because you're into it, but wehave checklists we have to run
all the time.
So, like when we're taxing, wehave a tax checklist before
takeoff.
While we're technically stilltaxing, we have a before takeoff
(01:51):
checklist that we are runningevery item and they don't take a
lot of time.
And we've gone to great lengthsmyself in the fleet, lead the
check airmen in the fleet topair that down and to boil that
down because these errors docreep in.
The time it takes for anybodyto be heads down allows more
errors and other externalfactors to play a part in losing
(02:14):
situational awareness orwhatever the case may be.
And the same once we're inflight, so like we've taken off
now out of so kind of like ourcall out 400 feet, the pilot
monitoring would say 400 feet,the pilot flying would say okay,
flaps up, y'all, damper onafter takeoff checklist.
And so then I have a flow aspilot monitoring to do and I
(02:39):
have all these items.
And then, of course, atc.
There's towers, switching overto departure.
You're getting communicationestablished with departure and
doing what they say, which isoften something which allows you
because the other guys handflying.
So now you're, you're doing theautomation stuff for not
automation per se, but you aremanipulating the flight guidance
(03:00):
panel for them, for them tofollow because it controls the
command bars on the primaryflight display.
So, with their hand flying, allthey're on is thrust lovers,
yoke and rudder pedals.
That's it.
They're not touching anythingelse.
So you as pilot flight or pilotmonitoring would be manipulating
and basically inputting thecontrols ATC gave you for them
(03:23):
to follow is the bottom line.
But in there I haven't even ranthe checklist.
I did my flow, i talked to ATCand at some point I got to get
my checklist done.
I never followed up with thechecklist And so you know Barb's
talking about, you know howthese arrows can creep in and
how digitization automationplays a part.
And, like we're not, we haven'teven talked about the time, the
(03:47):
time it takes, whichartificially compresses the
timeline to get things done.
Which obviously weighs on you asa person 100%.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So this is another phenomenon or phenomena, i don't
know.
I don't even know if it's that,but its cognitive overload is
what it's called And it'sgenerally regarded to define it
as like mental processingdemands that are placed on a
person during the performance ofa task.
So, like you said, you're handflying, you're doing certain
(04:20):
things, you have another pilot,let's say, monitoring the
automation or whatever it is,and that the workload as it gets
.
and you didn't even run achecklist right.
So the workload refers to allthe tasks that you have to do.
And then this overload happenswhen you know you have more than
you're physically or mentallycapable of doing, which
(04:40):
oftentimes will happen in a GAaircraft because you're not
always flying with, you know, afirst officer or a captain or
whatever, right, you might beflying alone.
And then you have all of theseother elements that you need to
run right.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And I don't know how they do it.
I think about it in like.
We tend to have this, like thisstigma against a single pilot
citation or a TBM or a Malibu,whatever it is, ciris in a
highly complex class Bravoairspace.
It's busy, you're an IMC andyou have all of the automation
(05:12):
and technology that we have in atransport category airplane,
but you're a single pilot now,correct?
It's like how do they do itLike I don't need to know?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
There was some insurance video I had to watch
the Kings had it on their FIRCprogram of a guy flying back
from the business owner flyingback in his phenom from the
Caribbean landed in Miami likeduring a storm.
It's obviously trying to liketeach you stuff about like
decision-making process And itwas terrifying.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Like what's a phenom again?
Speaker 1 (05:45):
The Bombardier Embraer.
Embraer, it's just a smallsweet personal.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Like a single pilot jet.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Yeah, they're single pilot, but then you can get.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Like it just walked through the loads that guy had
on him And this is obviouslyacting.
I don't know if it was basedoff a true story or not And like
you're just like, oh, that'slogical, how he's like being
overwhelmed right now.
And like air traffic control istelling him something.
He's hitting a couple ofbuttons on the thing.
It's not doing it, so that'staking his attention, but he's
still going.
However many knots into Miami.
(06:22):
Like, while he's trying tofigure this out, everything is
still going forward.
It doesn't matter that thattask is tripping him up for like
a little bit longer than itshould have.
And now he's just behind andgets a little frazzled And it's
like that's how statisticshappen.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, it's piling up.
It's like playing this game ofTetris And like you're trying to
that last, that last that rowyou have a perfect row of bricks
at the bottom And you'retowards the higher, higher
levels, right, and it's reallyspeeding up, and you're trying
to figure out how to get thatone in there and you're tapping
a couple of times to get it tofit right in that slot But you
(07:02):
already have three other pieceson the board coming down.
That's exactly the way it feelsWhen we see this slot and I
know we're kind of going out ofchronological order now, but
that's when we feel.
A lot is when they give you acrossing restriction on descent
People.
Decent planning is what I seemore commonly Then not as the
(07:23):
issue.
They don't know how to decentplan.
They don't know how to do math,quick math.
And if the FMS, the flightmanagement system, is not
Pre-programmed for this crossingrestriction which a lot of
times, we can see it comingbecause, again, situation
awareness You listen to theperson in front of you.
You probably been followingthem for 300 miles.
(07:45):
So I listen to the person infront of you, see what cross
restriction they get constantlygoing into.
You know South Florida, we get,you know we get on in pin cross
, in pin two, nine or zero.
Well, the chart says three, one, zero.
If you have that in there,obviously that's two thousand
feet difference.
It depends on when they giveyou.
But I could be a very bigdifference in The, the vertical
(08:06):
speed required to cross it.
And if you can't program thatquickly or do the quick mental
math, okay, i'm at 31.
I need to get to 21 and I havefive miles to do it, which I
can't do that math right nowanyways either.
But that's That's well.
You'd need a lot more than that.
That'd be crazy.
Yeah, you can't.
(08:26):
If you can't do the mental mathto make that cross restriction
work, that takes you completelyout of out of out of the role.
You're completely saturated.
Task.
Saturated is the term that Iuse.
Right, that's exactly what it'scalled.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And now compound that with,let's say, you know, an
emergency Right where you haveextra stress and you're trying
to get down really quickly, orsomething like that right.
Humans don't have the capacityto complete all of these things,
especially when they're underpressure.
You know the the the humanfactor side, like biologically,
(09:07):
psychologically or whatever.
You, you react to things byprocessing what's going on.
So in your example, where,let's say, you're setting the
FMS right, you're understandingthat, okay, here's what I'm
seeing in the planes in front ofme.
And then you have to make adecision Well, am I gonna
program it now, am I gonna wait?
and then you have to processthe response of that decision.
So, am I, am I doing this, am Inot doing this?
or let's say you, you, you getsomething to program and you're
(09:30):
going Okay, now what do I haveto do?
and then you have to actuallyact out on it.
So in that space of time, yeah,it can happen instantaneously,
let's say within a human brain,but if there are other things
going on at the time, thatprocess is going to be
interrupted.
Your situational awareness isgoing to be Interrupted, you're
not going to know where you are.
And, like I said, compound itwith an emergency in your toast.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, i guess even simpler than that.
Then, just you Working withyourself in a single pilot, yeah
, am I gonna program this now?
Am I gonna wait?
and maybe they'll give me whatthe chart says?
in a two pilot crew, you'realways hey, man, you mind if I
put this in now.
So it's not even.
(10:11):
You're not even have a talkwith yourself anymore.
You haven't done another personyou may have already had the
talk what takes, which maybetakes you a little bit out of
the equation, but then you'regonna present the same question
to another person.
It's gonna take them out of theequation for a minute.
So who's watching the airplaneat this point in time while
you're having this conversation,where you're both a Dedicating
hard drive or a ram to you know,to this, to this one Stupid at
(10:36):
the point at that point in timearticle.
Now, it allows you to be ahead.
Here's the, here's thejustification You have in that
conversation.
Now Put you both more back inthe saddle later on down the
road when it is arguably There'smore happening.
So there is that.
There's a win, there's a littlebit of a win there to have it,
(10:58):
but it's better to do it earlythan late.
Yes, but you still have to doit.
So if you do it early stillboth takes you out.
You kind of do lose a littlebit.
You know you're both not flyingthe airplane But it cruise, eh,
i mean it.
You get desensitized to it.
Like I'm amping up some stuff alittle bit right now, but you
do get desensitized.
All of this I and one of mybest analogies is If you're used
(11:22):
to driving your Buick all thetime, 35 miles an hour feels
fast.
If you're riding a crotchrocket every day, 140 miles an
hour feels fast.
That that is, that, is this.
That is the thing.
Like you get desensitized tosome of the stimuli You can.
You just buy a, the repetitionand and the conditioning you get
(11:45):
.
You get more in tune with howquickly information comes at you
.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, i think also what you.
You said something veryimportant about effective
Communication, right.
If you have that conversationin your head and you bring it
out to someone else And now youguys are effectively
communicating, ideally you'renot spending an exorbitant
amount of time discussing it,right?
because then who's flying theairplane, right?
There's that accident.
I can't remember what airlineit was, but they had a, a
(12:14):
landing light that was out likea heard the story.
Eastern, yeah something.
And You know when, when the,when the gear goes down, the
light turns green, when it'sdown and locked.
And It turns out it was downand locked But the little light,
the indicator light in thecockpit was not working And they
didn't know whether or not itwas down and locked.
(12:35):
And so, like It was back in thetime where there were flight
engineers and all three peoplein the cockpit were focused on
this one light, you go down andyou check and you look at it and
and I think they ended up itwas they either ran out of gas
Or it was a see fit, like theyfully Crashed, and it was
because they just spent timefocusing on a light that
literally was just a light.
They were actually down andlocked.
(12:56):
And so it just goes to show youthat the effective
communication And and makingsure that there is somebody
always, you know, manning Theactual flying of the plane is so
important.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Yeah, managing the aircraft state for sure, yeah,
absolutely.
I mean, i see these errorscreep in.
I'm trying to.
You know We have a limitedscope in in the airplanes.
I've flown the airplanes I flyin the geographical region, so
there's some errors, of course,that don't, or threats that
don't come in.
You know We're not flying thatmuch in the mountains.
You know we're not going out ofMexico and flying in big
(13:30):
mountains with the languagebarrier.
Those things they just compound.
And then you don't have a VNav,you don't have it set up
correctly, and they give you aclearance, and then you're,
you're always racing, and thenall of these items You have to
do it in the same period of timeJust because now you have more
jobs to do and it's just, it'sjust crazy how they compound
like that.
But, um, yeah, what I see thebiggest one is is that you know
(13:55):
the nav, the vertical, thevertical, descent planning Or
just descent planning.
It is what gets a lot of people.
It takes so much of their Mentalenergy the mental energy, yeah,
whatever, yeah to make thathappen.
And it's like, dude, youweren't thinking about this 30
miles ago, you weren't thinkingabout this a hundred miles ago.
(14:16):
It's simple equation.
And Now you need to know whataltitude you're kind of looking
at.
You know, and, and obviouslythe charts normally give you
some guidance as To what anideal altitude would be, but it
just it still takes time for anew guy to start figuring these
things out when you're used toflying around all the time At
3,000 feet, when you're at30,000 feet, it's a big
(14:38):
difference.
So yeah.
I see those things creep in butI mean I Guess.
Okay, I guess you notice I kindof jump to Descent stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, that's fair, i mean, for the amount of time we
spent taxing.
I feel like we're at 30,000feet very quickly, but that
means fine.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yeah, it seems to me training seems to be a bit king.
The way.
The way I see automation is,it's supposed to be help, not a
hindrance, and so something thatthat I commonly in.
I was trying to I get.
I tried to make this pointearlier.
I know it didn't land, but Ifyou can fly the automation, you
can fly the plane.
(15:22):
That is when I get these newguys and they want to hand fly.
They've been talking aboutflying, they just want to new
line, new people Lee new people.
Yeah, i'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
No, yeah, new flying right person, get that score up.
Baby flying new flying Yeah,flying people flying persons
people Persons yeah, flyingpersons Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
I think what when?
when they them get, when theythem.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Well, okay, yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
They want to, you know, fly.
They want to be hands-on Theairplane.
They don't want the autopilotflying it, they want to be
flying it.
They there's in, there's amultiple, because I've been
there, you know, and most peoplegraduating into these airplanes
have this Probably similarthought process.
(16:16):
They want to prove they can doit, that they're not an idiot.
They have as an fo you havelimited in instances to prove
that you don't suck ateverything.
And so you know you're notgetting a lot of, you're not
able to put in a lot of input onThe release, fuel planning,
this, that, the other thing.
So when it is your turn to fly,it's your turn to fly right.
(16:36):
So you want, you want to do itand show you can, i can be right
on 250 knots.
You, i can do a nice smoothlevel off all these things.
You, you want to display all ofthose things.
But what you don't, what youend up not doing, is you end up
not mastering automation.
And when you master automationAnd it can be done if it's done
(16:56):
right by hand flying you got tobe a little bit further ahead.
But if you can masterautomation, just get that
autopilot on and Then you arethe one pressing the buttons up
there instead of the next person.
You have to see, you need tointerpret, and then you need to
do.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
And, and you know it's maybe a two, three step
versus a two step or you knowwhatever.
But I think it gets you muchmore tuned.
If I will maintain, if you canfly the automation, you can fly
the airplane.
And it seems like Some of yourresearch has indicated I Know
I'm pulling it way down It hasit indicated, made the point,
(17:36):
it's intentional, it a 1000% is.
It goes from G1000 for your GA.
If, if you were to call thatkind of the benchmark right,
just something in the G serieswith a bunch of soft keys and
all kinds of stuff, bunch ofmenus on your PFT, you go from
that.
When you go to transportcategory, it gets easier, it
(17:58):
gets simpler.
You don't have a bunch of softkeys.
You may not have any buttons.
You can press on that PFD bezelat all or MFD bezel at all.
So you go from like the GA guyand all one trip through
sporty's catalog tells you howobsessed people are with tech.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
No, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
We just want goofy shit in in something that I
think might make my life easier.
More thing put my flight bag tojustify The leather flight bag
I have.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I don't really know 16 kneeboards later that you
don't use.
That's right.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
You got to find the right one, though, man.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
There is no right.
Every salvage plane I buy has akneeboard in it.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Yeah, they do.
Private pilots, GA guys areobsessed with tech and I don't
know if has something to do withthe type a personality Where
they want to do this one thingbetter.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
They want to copy no, I don't want to do anything.
We just want for us.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
They want the external look to be like I'm a
per, i'm a professional.
They want when they come intothis big airport they have it
looks all buttoned up, no matterhow chaotic or what work They
load they had to put into it tomake it look that way.
They want to be seamless fromthe outside.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I got the iPhone 8, so I'm up to date on the phone,
okay but the the when you go to,and there's also the cost of
retrofitting to.
Obviously you go get anairliner.
It's not nearly as cheap to areoutfit the whole fleet with
the newest, if it's even legalto do.
Look at the b52s though.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
My god, how long are they gonna keep those things
flying?
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I don't know what they did do on, but did they
just re-retrofit?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
They put new engines on them and they plan on flying
them through.
Whatever year they're flyingthem, plan on flying them
through, we'll put them over ahundred years of service.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Bring back those b17s right.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
We got a few hundred years, 20 more years, that'd be
like, yeah, that would be Thatthey will be Older than bringing
back the b17s right now when weretire them.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Fantastic yeah, yeah the Australians and the British
wouldn't do that.
No, no, Anyways.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
So I triple seven is pretty good, though I'm I was
kind of pissed about themGetting rid of the 747, but the
triple seven's not.
it's a pretty good replacement.
It's more efficient, it's notquite as big, but It's a nice.
but it's a nice plane.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I don't know if I remember one on one.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, they've had them for a while but like the
triple seven, nine is like whatthey're using to replace the
okay.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah so I mean it's left.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
So I think about like the how Um.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Whatever, wow, wow, lee, just derailed, i just know,
it's southern over here.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, using my, my thesis lingo, i just, i, just I
feel like that's a, a hypothesis, that If you knew the equipment
inside and out, it'd be lessdistracting, but you don't get
trained typically in likeworst-case scenario, which is
(21:05):
where the accidents happen.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
We you know, in barbecue, to test this, the
there's a chain of Errors thatcompound or a chain of events.
There's no one single eventsthat brings down a plane.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I understand that.
I'm saying given any chain ofevents, you take a pilot you'll
be better.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Who knows that?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
thing left and right you'll be, better.
There's a pilot who knows it.
40 to 60 percent.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
You'll be better the, the.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
The distraction of that device is not going to be
as high with the person whoknows it inside.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
So are you advocating Barb jump in anytime, but are
you advocating more training, ormore training on the operation
of systems?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
more Training and understanding of the systems and
particularly how all thosemenus work, what every button
does, what every phase.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
We don't have the buttons.
Like I just said a little bitago the well, you said buttons.
Okay, don't ask me buttons.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
You said I know what you mean no buttons.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
How do you buttons you're describing?
you said buttons.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Okay, what does every ?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
button I.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Don't know, you tell me, and then I will answer you.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I want someone to be able to navigate through.
There's nothing that devicelike, not from the software FMS
you talking PFT, mft?
Speaker 4 (22:24):
What are you talking about?
either one, okay, two totallydifferent things.
I'm talking buttons on an MFT.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
You know how to do everything that machine is doing
.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I don't know how to do anything.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Any of the airplanes I've flown no, no, i mean like
there's no screen, that youdon't know how to get to real
quick, and just you know I needthat.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
I need to know what that, all that information it
may tell me means, and you'reyou're acting.
Nothing Catastrophic isprobably gonna happen in the FMS
.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So that's where most of the buttons are in most a lot
of stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Okay, so the other, the other beneficial to know
About the systems and tounderstand how to navigate
different screens and buttons orno buttons or whatever I mean.
Obviously that's gonna be morehelpful.
I Don't think that's what wewere arguing, right?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I'm arguing Know your computer on it so well that
you're never fiddling with it,trying to get it like It's never
a problem to go do somethingwith it, just like a steam game,
a problem if you Yeah, justlike a steam gauge, no problem.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
You listen to the a new.
You're a new pilot and you'relistening to the aides or the a
wasp or whatever, and you're.
You need to Now adjust youraltimeter, that's that.
Your brain is off of flyingbecause you're with that little
colesman window.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I mean no matter what you're going to have to step
out to To pay attention to thatand I think turning that knob is
different than figuring outwhich buttons you press on a G
1000 to get it's not go to thathighlighter and then move it.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I don't think it is.
I think it's the same thing.
I think, regardless, it takes asecond of your time to be like
what do I have to do, what do Ihave to look at?
And then you're taking thatsecond out and that second you
could look back up and all of asudden you're on taxiway
whatever instead of taxiwaywhatever.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I just haven't been in a G1000, so I know how to
turn the knob.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I can't remember how to do it in the G1000.
So we should, we need tomitigate those issues and not be
doing that on the taxi.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
That is what the PC version of me would say Or when
you're land whatever.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It should all be done prior to top of decent, just
like with our briefing.
That should already be set.
We should already know whatit's going to be.
so we're not doing that.
That is not.
I mean, i'm sure the statisticsprobably bear out like oh yeah,
that's when the issues happen,that's when accidents happen,
that's when they lose theirsocial awareness But and of
course emergency did not happenright then.
(24:59):
And so obviously statisticsbear out things differently than
what I have perceived them tobe in actual practice.
But I'm a small sample size.
The number of keystrokes, ithink, do matter on the G1000.
Or I don't know what theexample is exactly Like.
if it's altimeter setting, idon't know what that takes in a
(25:19):
G1000.
I would assume it's simple, butI don't know that.
Obviously on a coltman windowon an altimeter normal it's
quick.
everybody gets that.
I'm assuming that's a largelyintuitive on any of the advanced
flight systems.
I don't know.
But when you get to morecomplex things, how many times
do you in muscle memory clickthe wrong key and you have to
(25:43):
backspace?
How many times do you click thewrong thing Because you're
predicting, That's your problem.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
you're typing.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
That's a very good point You're predicting You make
typos all the time.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Everybody does, everybody does On your phone.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
That's fine.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
You're still typing using a computer.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
You're living in the dark ages, you're going through
motion so quickly.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
ATC will just send you text messages.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
these days They will, yeah, they'll send you text
messages.
Now Nobody types.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yes, they do, even on your phone.
You talk into it and type, youtalk to try to write On the FMS.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
On the.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
FMS, I don't type anything.
I talk into my computer and ittypes it all for me.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I'm gonna try to write a program for school, Yeah
.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
TPT, i guarantee you could Right.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
If you use Dragon and use Reverse curly bracket,
space enter.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
No, it knows all the symbols.
You could just learn to saythem and it would do it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Whatever you wanted to do, i guarantee I can type
fast and you can talk.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
No, you can't.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
You talk very slow.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I talk fast.
I can talk very fast.
I talk fast.
He's got one, if I know what Iwant to say.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
He's got it, i edit you for hours every week, right.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I can type faster than you talk on the show at
least.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Okay, but if I'm entering in, that's a perfect
example.
If.
I'm entering in Okay but ifokay, I have a list of parts.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I have four sentences ahead of you right now.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, okay, it's very easy to type for him, just so
you know.
Yeah, i guarantee you can nottype fast and I can talk.
It's not possible.
Nobody can talk.
Nobody can type as fast assomebody can talk For everyone
who listens to the show, evenlike the fastest typers in the
world cannot type as fast as youcan talk.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Can I just I need.
I noticed something Even whenyou were talking.
you made a mistake andbacktracked what you were saying
.
Nobody can talk, nobody cantype as fast.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Right, but I'm reading it off of paper.
I'm reading it off of something.
I'm just saying the words.
I already have the parts, theprices and anything that's wrong
with it written down, So I'mjust reading it as I want it to
be written.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So you basically typed it already, and then
you're rereading it.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's from the shop.
Exactly the time goes for theshop to the office.
Why don't you just take a photoof?
Speaker 1 (28:07):
it and have chat GPT do it for you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Because it's not quite there yet.
There is no way that you couldtype enter in the information
that I have to enter in using amouse and keyboard as fast as I
can do it verbally Not possible.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Exactly, which is why , if you're flying and ATC texts
too, it's a very big problem.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, i'm just saying I would like it on a screen
though, because then I could goback and read it.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yeah, but you need to address it pretty much And
that's a perception of ours thatit needs to be an instantaneous
adjustment in your flight path.
Atc says something oh, i needto do it right now.
And then you go into predictivetext mode on your FMS and you
start key stroking And it's likeoh, i was on a different screen
(28:57):
than I thought I was, so thatkey does something different
this time.
You understand where you arespatially with inside that
system, but it doesn't mean thatit doesn't take you extra time
to get back expert.
So, even though you know itintuitively, you may take
yourself three pages away fromwhere you wanna be.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
This was the Oscars.
Then they cut you off.
Part two, barbara Sutton, we'rewrapping it up.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I like thank you again.
Andrew says just leave ATC onred Yeah, perfect advice.
Notifications don't even justlet it build up, barbara.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
thank you again for coming on.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
We're gonna wrap up this series going to the after
chat here, the handful people inthe chat.
If you have any questions, doit in.
I feel like there's enough.
Argument still going on.
Dan Freight, I'm a big fan ofyou.
Argument still going on.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Dan Freight says I'm his favorite.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I'm his favorite.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
No, he said I'm his favorite.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Well, we're gonna see you in a second, i'm sure he'll
respond to that, Dan settle itright now.
Dan said I'm his favorite.
You don't have a chance.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
As always, thanks for the barb You're doing you,
tyler and Jared agreed to do thenext episode, right?
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Yes, we did.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
On your own.
That's out of the free list.
That's out of the free list.
Okay, yeah, so we're gonna havea full guest episode.
Yeah, yeah, cause you guysdon't have time.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And Scott will listen to that one finally, you guys
don't have time to do it.
We have a lot of firsts, scott.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yes, we have the first female guest and Scott's
first episode you ever listenedto Coming right up.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Wow, wait, i can listen to it.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Well, it'll be interesting, cause it'll be not
the three of us, it'll be threenew people.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I'm not at all that good.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Exactly Pilot ground takeover is what I'm calling it.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
All right, dan said be soot So see.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Soot Yep, soot It's me, it's me Okay, thanks for
listening, take care, see youguys, see you later Later.
Welcome to part two this week of the Faray podcast.
If you joined us two weeks ago,you remember Barbara Suttonon.
We are talking, sometimes westay on aviation, sometimes we
even stay on the topic we'recovering, which is cockpit
automation, flight deckdigitization.
Did I say that right?
(00:24):
It's a hard word to sayDigitization.
Okay, Where do we leave off?
Were we done taxing?
even the last episode?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, I don't even know if we made it in the air.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We definitely didn't make it into the air.
We didn't talk about takeoff.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Let's fast forward, barb, let's fast forward.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
All right Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Our next phase Takeoff.
We got to take this thing off.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
We're still on the ground.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah Hour in.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'm in.
Listen, a lot of the things Isaid I last two weeks ago still
apply.
If you're taking off, or ifyou're climbing, or if you're in
cruise, right, If you'remonitoring those screens and
you're continuously monitoringthose screens, the human factors
are going to kick in.
You're going to have an issuewith your eyes, an issue with
(01:15):
fatigue, an issue with memory orwhatever.
Like any phase of flight thatyou're in, whether it's the
first leg or the second leg of atrip or a day or whatever it is
, those things are going togreatly affect your ability to
function properly in the cockpit.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
For sure In there.
I think maybe some people mayforget I'm sure you don't
because you're into it, but wehave checklists we have to run
all the time.
So, like when we're taxing, wehave a tax checklist before
takeoff.
While we're technically stilltaxing, we have a before takeoff
(01:51):
checklist that we are runningevery item and they don't take a
lot of time.
And we've gone to great lengthsmyself in the fleet, lead the
check airmen in the fleet topair that down and to boil that
down because these errors docreep in.
The time it takes for anybodyto be heads down allows more
errors and other externalfactors to play a part in losing
(02:14):
situational awareness orwhatever the case may be.
And the same once we're inflight, so like we've taken off
now out of so kind of like ourcall out 400 feet, the pilot
monitoring would say 400 feet,the pilot flying would say okay,
flaps up, y'all, damper onafter takeoff checklist.
And so then I have a flow aspilot monitoring to do and I
(02:39):
have all these items.
And then, of course, atc.
There's towers, switching overto departure.
You're getting communicationestablished with departure and
doing what they say, which isoften something which allows you
because the other guys handflying.
So now you're, you're doing theautomation stuff for not
automation per se, but you aremanipulating the flight guidance
(03:00):
panel for them, for them tofollow because it controls the
command bars on the primaryflight display.
So, with their hand flying, allthey're on is thrust lovers,
yoke and rudder pedals.
That's it.
They're not touching anythingelse.
So you as pilot flight or pilotmonitoring would be manipulating
and basically inputting thecontrols ATC gave you for them
(03:23):
to follow is the bottom line.
But in there I haven't even ranthe checklist.
I did my flow, i talked to ATCand at some point I got to get
my checklist done.
I never followed up with thechecklist And so you know Barb's
talking about, you know howthese arrows can creep in and
how digitization automationplays a part.
And, like we're not, we haven'teven talked about the time, the
(03:47):
time it takes, whichartificially compresses the
timeline to get things done.
Which obviously weighs on you asa person 100%.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So this is another phenomenon or phenomena, i don't
know.
I don't even know if it's that,but its cognitive overload is
what it's called And it'sgenerally regarded to define it
as like mental processingdemands that are placed on a
person during the performance ofa task.
So, like you said, you're handflying, you're doing certain
(04:20):
things, you have another pilot,let's say, monitoring the
automation or whatever it is,and that the workload as it gets
.
and you didn't even run achecklist right.
So the workload refers to allthe tasks that you have to do.
And then this overload happenswhen you know you have more than
you're physically or mentallycapable of doing, which
(04:40):
oftentimes will happen in a GAaircraft because you're not
always flying with, you know, afirst officer or a captain or
whatever, right, you might beflying alone.
And then you have all of theseother elements that you need to
run right.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And I don't know how they do it.
I think about it in like.
We tend to have this, like thisstigma against a single pilot
citation or a TBM or a Malibu,whatever it is, ciris in a
highly complex class Bravoairspace.
It's busy, you're an IMC andyou have all of the automation
(05:12):
and technology that we have in atransport category airplane,
but you're a single pilot now,correct?
It's like how do they do itLike I don't need to know?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
There was some insurance video I had to watch
the Kings had it on their FIRCprogram of a guy flying back
from the business owner flyingback in his phenom from the
Caribbean landed in Miami likeduring a storm.
It's obviously trying to liketeach you stuff about like
decision-making process And itwas terrifying.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Like what's a phenom again?
Speaker 1 (05:45):
The Bombardier Embraer.
Embraer, it's just a smallsweet personal.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Like a single pilot jet.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Yeah, they're single pilot, but then you can get.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Like it just walked through the loads that guy had
on him And this is obviouslyacting.
I don't know if it was basedoff a true story or not And like
you're just like, oh, that'slogical, how he's like being
overwhelmed right now.
And like air traffic control istelling him something.
He's hitting a couple ofbuttons on the thing.
It's not doing it, so that'staking his attention, but he's
still going.
However many knots into Miami.
(06:22):
Like, while he's trying tofigure this out, everything is
still going forward.
It doesn't matter that thattask is tripping him up for like
a little bit longer than itshould have.
And now he's just behind andgets a little frazzled And it's
like that's how statisticshappen.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, it's piling up.
It's like playing this game ofTetris And like you're trying to
that last, that last that rowyou have a perfect row of bricks
at the bottom And you'retowards the higher, higher
levels, right, and it's reallyspeeding up, and you're trying
to figure out how to get thatone in there and you're tapping
a couple of times to get it tofit right in that slot But you
(07:02):
already have three other pieceson the board coming down.
That's exactly the way it feelsWhen we see this slot and I
know we're kind of going out ofchronological order now, but
that's when we feel.
A lot is when they give you acrossing restriction on descent
People.
Decent planning is what I seemore commonly Then not as the
(07:23):
issue.
They don't know how to decentplan.
They don't know how to do math,quick math.
And if the FMS, the flightmanagement system, is not
Pre-programmed for this crossingrestriction which a lot of
times, we can see it comingbecause, again, situation
awareness You listen to theperson in front of you.
You probably been followingthem for 300 miles.
(07:45):
So I listen to the person infront of you, see what cross
restriction they get constantlygoing into.
You know South Florida, we get,you know we get on in pin cross
, in pin two, nine or zero.
Well, the chart says three, one, zero.
If you have that in there,obviously that's two thousand
feet difference.
It depends on when they giveyou.
But I could be a very bigdifference in The, the vertical
(08:06):
speed required to cross it.
And if you can't program thatquickly or do the quick mental
math, okay, i'm at 31.
I need to get to 21 and I havefive miles to do it, which I
can't do that math right nowanyways either.
But that's That's well.
You'd need a lot more than that.
That'd be crazy.
Yeah, you can't.
(08:26):
If you can't do the mental mathto make that cross restriction
work, that takes you completelyout of out of out of the role.
You're completely saturated.
Task.
Saturated is the term that Iuse.
Right, that's exactly what it'scalled.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And now compound that with,let's say, you know, an
emergency Right where you haveextra stress and you're trying
to get down really quickly, orsomething like that right.
Humans don't have the capacityto complete all of these things,
especially when they're underpressure.
You know the the the humanfactor side, like biologically,
(09:07):
psychologically or whatever.
You, you react to things byprocessing what's going on.
So in your example, where,let's say, you're setting the
FMS right, you're understandingthat, okay, here's what I'm
seeing in the planes in front ofme.
And then you have to make adecision Well, am I gonna
program it now, am I gonna wait?
and then you have to processthe response of that decision.
So, am I, am I doing this, am Inot doing this?
or let's say you, you, you getsomething to program and you're
(09:30):
going Okay, now what do I haveto do?
and then you have to actuallyact out on it.
So in that space of time, yeah,it can happen instantaneously,
let's say within a human brain,but if there are other things
going on at the time, thatprocess is going to be
interrupted.
Your situational awareness isgoing to be Interrupted, you're
not going to know where you are.
And, like I said, compound itwith an emergency in your toast.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, i guess even simpler than that.
Then, just you Working withyourself in a single pilot, yeah
, am I gonna program this now?
Am I gonna wait?
and maybe they'll give me whatthe chart says?
in a two pilot crew, you'realways hey, man, you mind if I
put this in now.
So it's not even.
(10:11):
You're not even have a talkwith yourself anymore.
You haven't done another personyou may have already had the
talk what takes, which maybetakes you a little bit out of
the equation, but then you'regonna present the same question
to another person.
It's gonna take them out of theequation for a minute.
So who's watching the airplaneat this point in time while
you're having this conversation,where you're both a Dedicating
hard drive or a ram to you know,to this, to this one Stupid at
(10:36):
the point at that point in timearticle.
Now, it allows you to be ahead.
Here's the, here's thejustification You have in that
conversation.
Now Put you both more back inthe saddle later on down the
road when it is arguably There'smore happening.
So there is that.
There's a win, there's a littlebit of a win there to have it,
(10:58):
but it's better to do it earlythan late.
Yes, but you still have to doit.
So if you do it early stillboth takes you out.
You kind of do lose a littlebit.
You know you're both not flyingthe airplane But it cruise, eh,
i mean it.
You get desensitized to it.
Like I'm amping up some stuff alittle bit right now, but you
do get desensitized.
All of this I and one of mybest analogies is If you're used
(11:22):
to driving your Buick all thetime, 35 miles an hour feels
fast.
If you're riding a crotchrocket every day, 140 miles an
hour feels fast.
That that is, that, is this.
That is the thing.
Like you get desensitized tosome of the stimuli You can.
You just buy a, the repetitionand and the conditioning you get
(11:45):
.
You get more in tune with howquickly information comes at you
.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, i think also what you.
You said something veryimportant about effective
Communication, right.
If you have that conversationin your head and you bring it
out to someone else And now youguys are effectively
communicating, ideally you'renot spending an exorbitant
amount of time discussing it,right?
because then who's flying theairplane, right?
There's that accident.
I can't remember what airlineit was, but they had a, a
(12:14):
landing light that was out likea heard the story.
Eastern, yeah something.
And You know when, when the,when the gear goes down, the
light turns green, when it'sdown and locked.
And It turns out it was downand locked But the little light,
the indicator light in thecockpit was not working And they
didn't know whether or not itwas down and locked.
(12:35):
And so, like It was back in thetime where there were flight
engineers and all three peoplein the cockpit were focused on
this one light, you go down andyou check and you look at it and
and I think they ended up itwas they either ran out of gas
Or it was a see fit, like theyfully Crashed, and it was
because they just spent timefocusing on a light that
literally was just a light.
They were actually down andlocked.
(12:56):
And so it just goes to show youthat the effective
communication And and makingsure that there is somebody
always, you know, manning Theactual flying of the plane is so
important.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Yeah, managing the aircraft state for sure, yeah,
absolutely.
I mean, i see these errorscreep in.
I'm trying to.
You know We have a limitedscope in in the airplanes.
I've flown the airplanes I flyin the geographical region, so
there's some errors, of course,that don't, or threats that
don't come in.
You know We're not flying thatmuch in the mountains.
You know we're not going out ofMexico and flying in big
(13:30):
mountains with the languagebarrier.
Those things they just compound.
And then you don't have a VNav,you don't have it set up
correctly, and they give you aclearance, and then you're,
you're always racing, and thenall of these items You have to
do it in the same period of timeJust because now you have more
jobs to do and it's just, it'sjust crazy how they compound
like that.
But, um, yeah, what I see thebiggest one is is that you know
(13:55):
the nav, the vertical, thevertical, descent planning Or
just descent planning.
It is what gets a lot of people.
It takes so much of their Mentalenergy the mental energy, yeah,
whatever, yeah to make thathappen.
And it's like, dude, youweren't thinking about this 30
miles ago, you weren't thinkingabout this a hundred miles ago.
(14:16):
It's simple equation.
And Now you need to know whataltitude you're kind of looking
at.
You know, and, and obviouslythe charts normally give you
some guidance as To what anideal altitude would be, but it
just it still takes time for anew guy to start figuring these
things out when you're used toflying around all the time At
3,000 feet, when you're at30,000 feet, it's a big
(14:38):
difference.
So yeah.
I see those things creep in butI mean I Guess.
Okay, I guess you notice I kindof jump to Descent stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, that's fair, i mean, for the amount of time we
spent taxing.
I feel like we're at 30,000feet very quickly, but that
means fine.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yeah, it seems to me training seems to be a bit king.
The way.
The way I see automation is,it's supposed to be help, not a
hindrance, and so something thatthat I commonly in.
I was trying to I get.
I tried to make this pointearlier.
I know it didn't land, but Ifyou can fly the automation, you
can fly the plane.
(15:22):
That is when I get these newguys and they want to hand fly.
They've been talking aboutflying, they just want to new
line, new people Lee new people.
Yeah, i'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
No, yeah, new flying right person, get that score up.
Baby flying new flying Yeah,flying people flying persons
people Persons yeah, flyingpersons Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
I think what when?
when they them get, when theythem.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Well, okay, yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
They want to, you know, fly.
They want to be hands-on Theairplane.
They don't want the autopilotflying it, they want to be
flying it.
They there's in, there's amultiple, because I've been
there, you know, and most peoplegraduating into these airplanes
have this Probably similarthought process.
(16:16):
They want to prove they can doit, that they're not an idiot.
They have as an fo you havelimited in instances to prove
that you don't suck ateverything.
And so you know you're notgetting a lot of, you're not
able to put in a lot of input onThe release, fuel planning,
this, that, the other thing.
So when it is your turn to fly,it's your turn to fly right.
(16:36):
So you want, you want to do itand show you can, i can be right
on 250 knots.
You, i can do a nice smoothlevel off all these things.
You, you want to display all ofthose things.
But what you don't, what youend up not doing, is you end up
not mastering automation.
And when you master automationAnd it can be done if it's done
(16:56):
right by hand flying you got tobe a little bit further ahead.
But if you can masterautomation, just get that
autopilot on and Then you arethe one pressing the buttons up
there instead of the next person.
You have to see, you need tointerpret, and then you need to
do.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
And, and you know it's maybe a two, three step
versus a two step or you knowwhatever.
But I think it gets you muchmore tuned.
If I will maintain, if you canfly the automation, you can fly
the airplane.
And it seems like Some of yourresearch has indicated I Know
I'm pulling it way down It hasit indicated, made the point,
(17:36):
it's intentional, it a 1000% is.
It goes from G1000 for your GA.
If, if you were to call thatkind of the benchmark right,
just something in the G serieswith a bunch of soft keys and
all kinds of stuff, bunch ofmenus on your PFT, you go from
that.
When you go to transportcategory, it gets easier, it
(17:58):
gets simpler.
You don't have a bunch of softkeys.
You may not have any buttons.
You can press on that PFD bezelat all or MFD bezel at all.
So you go from like the GA guyand all one trip through
sporty's catalog tells you howobsessed people are with tech.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
No, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
We just want goofy shit in in something that I
think might make my life easier.
More thing put my flight bag tojustify The leather flight bag
I have.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I don't really know 16 kneeboards later that you
don't use.
That's right.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
You got to find the right one, though, man.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
There is no right.
Every salvage plane I buy has akneeboard in it.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Yeah, they do.
Private pilots, GA guys areobsessed with tech and I don't
know if has something to do withthe type a personality Where
they want to do this one thingbetter.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
They want to copy no, I don't want to do anything.
We just want for us.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
They want the external look to be like I'm a
per, i'm a professional.
They want when they come intothis big airport they have it
looks all buttoned up, no matterhow chaotic or what work They
load they had to put into it tomake it look that way.
They want to be seamless fromthe outside.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I got the iPhone 8, so I'm up to date on the phone,
okay but the the when you go to,and there's also the cost of
retrofitting to.
Obviously you go get anairliner.
It's not nearly as cheap to areoutfit the whole fleet with
the newest, if it's even legalto do.
Look at the b52s though.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
My god, how long are they gonna keep those things
flying?
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I don't know what they did do on, but did they
just re-retrofit?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
They put new engines on them and they plan on flying
them through.
Whatever year they're flyingthem, plan on flying them
through, we'll put them over ahundred years of service.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Bring back those b17s right.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
We got a few hundred years, 20 more years, that'd be
like, yeah, that would be Thatthey will be Older than bringing
back the b17s right now when weretire them.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Fantastic yeah, yeah the Australians and the British
wouldn't do that.
No, no, Anyways.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
So I triple seven is pretty good, though I'm I was
kind of pissed about themGetting rid of the 747, but the
triple seven's not.
it's a pretty good replacement.
It's more efficient, it's notquite as big, but It's a nice.
but it's a nice plane.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I don't know if I remember one on one.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, they've had them for a while but like the
triple seven, nine is like whatthey're using to replace the
okay.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah so I mean it's left.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
So I think about like the how Um.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Whatever, wow, wow, lee, just derailed, i just know,
it's southern over here.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, using my, my thesis lingo, i just, i, just I
feel like that's a, a hypothesis, that If you knew the equipment
inside and out, it'd be lessdistracting, but you don't get
trained typically in likeworst-case scenario, which is
(21:05):
where the accidents happen.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
We you know, in barbecue, to test this, the
there's a chain of Errors thatcompound or a chain of events.
There's no one single eventsthat brings down a plane.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I understand that.
I'm saying given any chain ofevents, you take a pilot you'll
be better.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Who knows that?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
thing left and right you'll be, better.
There's a pilot who knows it.
40 to 60 percent.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
You'll be better the, the.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
The distraction of that device is not going to be
as high with the person whoknows it inside.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
So are you advocating Barb jump in anytime, but are
you advocating more training, ormore training on the operation
of systems?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
more Training and understanding of the systems and
particularly how all thosemenus work, what every button
does, what every phase.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
We don't have the buttons.
Like I just said a little bitago the well, you said buttons.
Okay, don't ask me buttons.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
You said I know what you mean no buttons.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
How do you buttons you're describing?
you said buttons.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Okay, what does every ?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
button I.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Don't know, you tell me, and then I will answer you.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I want someone to be able to navigate through.
There's nothing that devicelike, not from the software FMS
you talking PFT, mft?
Speaker 4 (22:24):
What are you talking about?
either one, okay, two totallydifferent things.
I'm talking buttons on an MFT.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
You know how to do everything that machine is doing
.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I don't know how to do anything.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Any of the airplanes I've flown no, no, i mean like
there's no screen, that youdon't know how to get to real
quick, and just you know I needthat.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
I need to know what that, all that information it
may tell me means, and you'reyou're acting.
Nothing Catastrophic isprobably gonna happen in the FMS
.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So that's where most of the buttons are in most a lot
of stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Okay, so the other, the other beneficial to know
About the systems and tounderstand how to navigate
different screens and buttons orno buttons or whatever I mean.
Obviously that's gonna be morehelpful.
I Don't think that's what wewere arguing, right?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I'm arguing Know your computer on it so well that
you're never fiddling with it,trying to get it like It's never
a problem to go do somethingwith it, just like a steam game,
a problem if you Yeah, justlike a steam gauge, no problem.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
You listen to the a new.
You're a new pilot and you'relistening to the aides or the a
wasp or whatever, and you're.
You need to Now adjust youraltimeter, that's that.
Your brain is off of flyingbecause you're with that little
colesman window.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I mean no matter what you're going to have to step
out to To pay attention to thatand I think turning that knob is
different than figuring outwhich buttons you press on a G
1000 to get it's not go to thathighlighter and then move it.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I don't think it is.
I think it's the same thing.
I think, regardless, it takes asecond of your time to be like
what do I have to do, what do Ihave to look at?
And then you're taking thatsecond out and that second you
could look back up and all of asudden you're on taxiway
whatever instead of taxiwaywhatever.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I just haven't been in a G1000, so I know how to
turn the knob.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I can't remember how to do it in the G1000.
So we should, we need tomitigate those issues and not be
doing that on the taxi.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
That is what the PC version of me would say Or when
you're land whatever.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It should all be done prior to top of decent, just
like with our briefing.
That should already be set.
We should already know whatit's going to be.
so we're not doing that.
That is not.
I mean, i'm sure the statisticsprobably bear out like oh yeah,
that's when the issues happen,that's when accidents happen,
that's when they lose theirsocial awareness But and of
course emergency did not happenright then.
(24:59):
And so obviously statisticsbear out things differently than
what I have perceived them tobe in actual practice.
But I'm a small sample size.
The number of keystrokes, ithink, do matter on the G1000.
Or I don't know what theexample is exactly Like.
if it's altimeter setting, idon't know what that takes in a
(25:19):
G1000.
I would assume it's simple, butI don't know that.
Obviously on a coltman windowon an altimeter normal it's
quick.
everybody gets that.
I'm assuming that's a largelyintuitive on any of the advanced
flight systems.
I don't know.
But when you get to morecomplex things, how many times
do you in muscle memory clickthe wrong key and you have to
(25:43):
backspace?
How many times do you click thewrong thing Because you're
predicting, That's your problem.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
you're typing.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
That's a very good point You're predicting You make
typos all the time.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Everybody does, everybody does On your phone.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
That's fine.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
You're still typing using a computer.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
You're living in the dark ages, you're going through
motion so quickly.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
ATC will just send you text messages.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
these days They will, yeah, they'll send you text
messages.
Now Nobody types.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yes, they do, even on your phone.
You talk into it and type, youtalk to try to write On the FMS.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
On the.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
FMS, I don't type anything.
I talk into my computer and ittypes it all for me.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I'm gonna try to write a program for school, Yeah
.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
TPT, i guarantee you could Right.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
If you use Dragon and use Reverse curly bracket,
space enter.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
No, it knows all the symbols.
You could just learn to saythem and it would do it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Whatever you wanted to do, i guarantee I can type
fast and you can talk.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
No, you can't.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
You talk very slow.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I talk fast.
I can talk very fast.
I talk fast.
He's got one, if I know what Iwant to say.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
He's got it, i edit you for hours every week, right.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I can type faster than you talk on the show at
least.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Okay, but if I'm entering in, that's a perfect
example.
If.
I'm entering in Okay but ifokay, I have a list of parts.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I have four sentences ahead of you right now.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, okay, it's very easy to type for him, just so
you know.
Yeah, i guarantee you can nottype fast and I can talk.
It's not possible.
Nobody can talk.
Nobody can type as fast assomebody can talk For everyone
who listens to the show, evenlike the fastest typers in the
world cannot type as fast as youcan talk.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Can I just I need.
I noticed something Even whenyou were talking.
you made a mistake andbacktracked what you were saying
.
Nobody can talk, nobody cantype as fast.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Right, but I'm reading it off of paper.
I'm reading it off of something.
I'm just saying the words.
I already have the parts, theprices and anything that's wrong
with it written down, So I'mjust reading it as I want it to
be written.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So you basically typed it already, and then
you're rereading it.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's from the shop.
Exactly the time goes for theshop to the office.
Why don't you just take a photoof?
Speaker 1 (28:07):
it and have chat GPT do it for you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Because it's not quite there yet.
There is no way that you couldtype enter in the information
that I have to enter in using amouse and keyboard as fast as I
can do it verbally Not possible.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Exactly, which is why , if you're flying and ATC texts
too, it's a very big problem.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, i'm just saying I would like it on a screen
though, because then I could goback and read it.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yeah, but you need to address it pretty much And
that's a perception of ours thatit needs to be an instantaneous
adjustment in your flight path.
Atc says something oh, i needto do it right now.
And then you go into predictivetext mode on your FMS and you
start key stroking And it's likeoh, i was on a different screen
(28:57):
than I thought I was, so thatkey does something different
this time.
You understand where you arespatially with inside that
system, but it doesn't mean thatit doesn't take you extra time
to get back expert.
So, even though you know itintuitively, you may take
yourself three pages away fromwhere you wanna be.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
This was the Oscars.
Then they cut you off.
Part two, barbara Sutton, we'rewrapping it up.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I like thank you again.
Andrew says just leave ATC onred Yeah, perfect advice.
Notifications don't even justlet it build up, barbara.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
thank you again for coming on.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
We're gonna wrap up this series going to the after
chat here, the handful people inthe chat.
If you have any questions, doit in.
I feel like there's enough.
Argument still going on.
Dan Freight, I'm a big fan ofyou.
Argument still going on.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Dan Freight says I'm his favorite.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I'm his favorite.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
No, he said I'm his favorite.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Well, we're gonna see you in a second, i'm sure he'll
respond to that, Dan settle itright now.
Dan said I'm his favorite.
You don't have a chance.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
As always, thanks for the barb You're doing you,
tyler and Jared agreed to do thenext episode, right?
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Yes, we did.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
On your own.
That's out of the free list.
That's out of the free list.
Okay, yeah, so we're gonna havea full guest episode.
Yeah, yeah, cause you guysdon't have time.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And Scott will listen to that one finally, you guys
don't have time to do it.
We have a lot of firsts, scott.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yes, we have the first female guest and Scott's
first episode you ever listenedto Coming right up.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Wow, wait, i can listen to it.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Well, it'll be interesting, cause it'll be not
the three of us, it'll be threenew people.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I'm not at all that good.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Exactly Pilot ground takeover is what I'm calling it.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
All right, dan said be soot So see.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Soot Yep, soot It's me, it's me Okay, thanks for
listening, take care, see youguys, see you later Later.
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