July 13, 2023 • 56 mins
Ever wondered about the intricate dance of communication that takes place in the skies? Strap in tight, because we’re about to embark on an exciting journey through the world of aviation communication with our expert guide, Scott Bores. From examining a mock flight to discussing the complexities and importance of precision, we're taking off on a fascinating flight into the world of cockpit communication.
Our trip starts on the ground as we explore the nuances of taxi instructions and the integral role of transponders for a Class Bravo airport. Scott unravels the layers of precision required and pushes us to consider how updates to the system could make it more efficient for pilots. We then transition into the adrenaline-pumping takeoff, where we learn the specifics of switching frequencies, the phraseology of the tower controller, and the significant implications of the phrase 'line up and wait.'
As we soar through the skies, we engage in thought-provoking discussions on how to communicate effectively with air traffic controllers and other pilots. We delve into the critical nature of calling out aircraft positions, the different scenarios of calling out left or right base in a mock flight, and the impact of aircraft speed profiles on the flight pattern. This is not just an episode; it's an enlightening journey that promises invaluable insights for anyone interested in aviation communication. So, fasten your seatbelts, folks, and prepare for a thrilling ride through the skies!
Episode title, description, transcript and chapter markers brought to you by AI...
We did a "soft" relaunch of Pilot Ground in April 2025. If you want to sign up its at
https://forum.pilotground.com
It's completely free for everyone this time around. The first people joining here will help shape the direction we take the forum. We found a much cheaper way to run the community compared to before. We appreciate all the financial support we received from the Ground Crew Members on the original Pilot Ground! Thank You!!
Subscribe to the Rumble channel incase we do another airplane shopping episode... (this potential episode would not show up in this podcast feed (video only)):
https://rumble.com/FARAIM
Follow the show on X:
https://x.com/FARAIMPodcast
Robert started his own rumble channel and is contemplating streaming some flight simulator and IT type content:
https://rumble.com/RobertBerger
Lee is on the fence about starting a personal channel on Rumble and showcasing the flying his newly purchased aircraft. Send him an email if you would like him to do that!
Lee's Email is: FARAIM@LeeGriffing.com
Robert's Email is: FARAIM@RobertBerger.com
Scott's Online Store is: BoresAirParts.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to the Farrain Podcast.
This week we are doing aglorious flight
Telecommunications, you shouldsay, on the radio type episode.
We're going to do a mock flightto test not only Scott Boris's
skills on radio communication.
My skills as an air trafficcontroller which I am not are
(00:37):
going to be tested.
It should be extra bad.
Leo correct us, because he kindof knows.
He knows what he's doing on thepilot side and pretty much will
know that what I'm saying isnot what an air traffic
controller would say, but we'regoing to do it anyway.
Hopefully you learned somethingfrom this.
Yeah, let's roll right into it.
Mr Boris, you get your Detroitmap up there.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Of the airport yeah.
Airport diagram yeah, diagram.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Taxiways and stuff.
You see the east side, thatgeneral aviation.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, I see, yes, there are two spots of general
aviation.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
But I see this, I see the it's the one, the east, the
east side, on the right side ofthe diagram there.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
If you're following along, like, not don't do this
if you're driving, but if you'reat home, board and drinking or
something you hold up, followalong with us, okay.
So your tail number, the newofficial tail number of the
foreign podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
So do you want me to call?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
you?
What type of airplane are wedoing this in?
First of all, you got to choose.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Wow, I mean I says to one chip, because that's what I
got.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Oh, let's do something cooler.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well, let's do something different, because the
150, it's always bothered me.
A lot of the Cessna's do this.
They don't have a very easy andI don't know if it's just
because society is dictated thatwe don't say these.
But like a 150, commuter,nobody calls up commuter, nobody
calls up an assassin 206 as astation error.
(02:22):
Nobody does that.
It's unfortunate, but I tend tothink precision matters.
So I would prefer to use anairplane like you could say a
King Air, you could say aBonanza, you could say a Baron,
you could do one of those, aPilatus.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I can't fly any of those, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I just want to mix it up.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
We got a new tail number.
It's like I just don't want tothrow this brand new tail number
.
We registered with.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Skyhawk, at least Do whatever you want, just
something that we can say,because you want a Skymaster,
what are you?
Going to say Cessna 150?
.
Yeah, if you want to say Cessna150 every time, or at least
till we get the dialogue going,that's fine.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
What if I just said 150?
, c150.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, that's fine.
That's just kind of weird.
That's a kind of that is againit's just weird.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
You don't want to fly , Lee?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I don't want to.
Well, I have no problem with a150, other than nobody.
I hear ATC do this with flightfollowing.
All the time.
People call up in a 150 andthey just say Cessna, in this
case Cessna 151, whiskey,whiskey, and the controller is
going to be like, say, typeaircraft at some point in the
dialogue establishing you know,the flight following and the
(03:46):
data tag and all this stuff andthey have to go back.
But if you call up Skyhawk 151Whiskey, whiskey, the dude knows
it's a 172.
It's a C172.
You know what I mean.
That is the.
That's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
We do a Baron.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
It's got fly a Baron this time you want to fly a
Baron this time we're going tospend so much time on the ground
taxing before we get off theair.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
This is how all those episodes go.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
We need something a little quicker to get you back
over to PCW.
I don't even know how to fly aBaron.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I'm going to crash HGC doesn't know that.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Okay, scott, is there anything that you would
entertain saying instead ofCessna 150?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Or if you just say Cessna 150, that's fine, that'll
load.
Scott, we're changing the modeland the tail number.
Call sign.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Speedbird Aviation mic says use speedbird as the
call.
Speedbird yeah, speedbird 151Whiskey, whiskey Heavy.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Say heavy at the end too, All right, okay, well, this
is going great.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Scott, whatever, all right, fine, we'll use.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Baron.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
We'll use Baron.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
We got to use the call sign.
I paid $10 for it, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Per year.
Is it per year?
It's per year to hold it, ohman.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
We have it on hold now so we can use it on the show
as the official call sign nowand not worry about accidentally
saying somebody else is playing.
We shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
All right, Fire away guys.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Or Scott, I guess.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Here I go Detroit ground.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Already wrong.
It's a metro ground.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Oh, who cares?
They know what I'm talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
It says that right on the chart.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, they're going to correct you, but that's okay.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Metro ground Baron 151.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Whiskey Whiskey Rob 151 Whiskey Whiskey Metro Ground
.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Go ahead 151 Whiskey Whiskey.
Requesting taxi for departureto the east 151 Whiskey, whiskey
.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You have the current ATIS.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yep, this is very accurate.
Of what?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
would happen.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
What is the current ATIS?
I don't even know what to find.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
the current ATIS you know it just makes up, Mom.
Unless you tune in on radio orhave floor flight up, it's not
going to be able to easily tellthat it's one of the titles
Tyler's saying call clearance,which he's correct, but so go
into that, Leigh, let's breakthat down.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So typically in a class Bravo, I mean, you start
with clearance because you needclearance into the class Bravo
it's kind of the best way todescribe it.
So you'd get your ATIS justlike normal.
And for guys who are justprivate pilots and they don't
have an instrument, it's kind ofweird that you have to call
clearance even though you didn'tfile IFR.
And a lot of times it's just aformality.
But still, at a class Bravoairport and I would recommend it
(06:59):
to class Charlie, even thoughyou don't have to At a class
Charlie, class Bravo I wouldrecommend.
Well, at a class Bravo, I would.
At a class Charlie, I wouldrecommend Class Bravo.
You want to get your ATIS, callclearance and they'll give them
Most of the stuff that Scottjust said.
So it'd be fine.
I mean, you need to get theATIS code, which you're getting
at now, and then they would handyou off to give you clearance
(07:25):
and then they'd hand you off toground and then you'd basically
start your whole spiel back overagain, basically where you
started.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Okay, in.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Tyler St.
He thought it was required inCharlie as well.
I don't know.
I've done a lot of flying classCharlie VFR.
Very little in the class BravoVFR.
Class Charlie, I never did.
I don't think it's required.
I don't have any resources hereto look it up.
I wouldn't think it would be.
So, Tyler, if you want to dothat Because class.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
You don't need a clearance from Charlie, do you?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah Well, so if you look at like, if you're coming
into or traversing a classCharlie air space, you'll need
to hear your call sign, right?
So if you were to think of itin that context, think of it
outbound, it's kind of the samedeal as long as you hear your
call sign back.
It's kind of assumed that, like, you're cleared into where
class Bravo is the only onewhere you need to hear the word.
(08:18):
You're cleared into the classBravo or cleared through
whatever.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's the way I look at it.
He's looking at it, tyler'slooking for it now.
So maybe that'll give us somedefinitive proof.
But I'm, and I, like I said, Ido recommend it because then it
just keeps everything allparallel and concise and you
don't need to remember oh, I'min class Bravo, I do it this way
in class Charlie, I do it thisway.
I do recommend doing it thatway and keeping treating them
uniformly.
But Sue Sixier says D and C arethe same, only B requires
(08:53):
specific clearance.
Oh, and he said that's Ian.
So Tyler keep looking it up, iansaid.
Ian said I'm right, so youbetter keep looking it up, I'm
just joking.
I'm sure it's, I'm sure I'm.
I would think that's right.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Ian's in the chat, so it's finally somebody in our
periphery.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
But now he's going to tell us all the stuff that we
shouldn't really be saying.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So oh, I'm sure I didn't even know that about
clearance and I'm ATC, that'swhat I'm just going with it.
151, whiskey Whiskey.
Please verify, verify, you haveinformation.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Whiskey 151 Whiskey Whiskey has information Whiskey.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So here's the thing.
So right there, here's a protip.
Say you call up with Alright,let's say you call up with the
letter right before the currentone and they want you to have
the current one, and you say,okay, I've picked her.
And they say, let us know whenyou have information with me,
like, oh yeah, whiskey's what wegot.
(09:51):
I can't read my own handwriting.
That's what I always do itdoesn't change.
Just tell them you got whatthey said and tell them, why In
theory, it could change Intheory it could change there's
crazy weather coming in like afront's rolling through.
If it's rolling through, you cansee that out the window and you
should know.
But most of the time you're onthe right one.
(10:14):
I mean, would you get in anhour before you needed it?
Chances are you didn't do that.
Chances are you don't have anhour old weather that you're
calling them with.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But Hollywood did that to me once while I was
banter towing, and they didn'tmake me listen to it.
They said like 4-3, mike,change the whatever's now
current.
And then there's like nothingrelevance changed, you're fine,
or something along those lines.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
So you call up with the wrong one.
They said, oh, this is current,it had just changed.
Right, and that's the way theyshould.
But some places are kind oflike crazy about it.
I know Charlotte always used tobe like you know, let us know
when you have it, like incertain controllers, that's
their thing, like that's one oftheir shtick, they want you to
have the current thing.
And it's like I just landed 40minutes ago.
(11:06):
I see what it is now.
It's not any different.
You know, if all you change wasthe wind went from gusting to
10 instead of gusting to 12.
Like, what do I care?
But can it matter?
Absolutely, it's always betterto be on the other side, but
unless you know, if there's nota good reason, I don't know.
It doesn't make a mountain outof a molehill, is what I'm
(11:27):
saying.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Okay, 151, whiskey, whiskey, taxi 2, niner Wright.
Hold short Niner Wright viataxiway.
Victor 1, victor, papa, papa,Papa, juliet, juliet 8.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I'm actually going to need those taxi instructions
too.
I didn't know you were going togive me all everything.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
How would they usually do it?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well, normally they'd give you to the first crossing
the first.
Did you say cross nine left ortaxi nine right?
You said the same one twice.
So that was the first thingthat threw me.
You're going to taxi to nineright cross nine left.
You're going to taxi via Papa 5, papa would you say Victor.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I said S5S Victor 1, victor.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
S5S.
What the hell, when are you?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
S5 is the first one to get out of that little
general aviation area, s5 on theeast end.
Then why, would you?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Oh, I don't even know what that is.
There Signature, the only one Iknow of is actually up way up
in the northeast.
That's why I didn't know whereyou were starting either, oh
really.
By US customs.
Well, this part sucks.
Okay, let's say so, as long aseverybody knows where we are.
There's two general aviationareas.
You're on the far, you're onthe east east.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
This is Detroit metro .
Speaker 2 (12:59):
by the way, if anybody so there's one on the
east, like straight east, andthen there is one up in the like
pretty much the north, likealmost north central.
That's where I've always gone.
I don't even know what is overthere in that east one you're
talking about, but just I guessnow that we know, and now also
everybody else knows, why don'twe I'm trying to get a freaking-
(13:27):
ink to come out of this damnpen.
I know All right what you got,all right let's take this quick
top.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Let me duck, quack out the edit.
So I was saying S5 to S.
Well, I guess it'd be S7, thenV1V to P to PP to P to J to J.
(13:55):
Give them to nine, or rightthere.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, nine or right.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You said you want to take off to the east right.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Nine or right?
Yep, yeah, we're down souththere.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Okay, going east, yeah, so you're talking about
crossing.
I didn't want to take you on S1or S or S6 or any of that,
because it's all, it's Detroit,it's all potholes.
I got to kind of write routeyou around the airport around
the potholes Detroit has a lotof potholes Scott.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Can't they just like text me like a highlighted route
to take?
Wouldn't that be more efficient?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
How would they do that, lay, I don't know.
You know the route that I'mtrying to give them a taxi.
Let's say, hypothetically, theyhad to give them that route.
How would they tell them?
On that initial call when he'scalling from general aviation
area.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
All right, sierra five, sierra.
I would go Sierra six, cross,it'd be cross three right,
whiskey, juliet, juliet, seven.
So I'm going to write that down, as I just said Sierra five,
(15:17):
sierra.
So Sierra north.
Okay, if you guys are followingme, sierra six, cross.
And so, like if you have ascratch pad, I just do an X
typically for a cross threeright, if you have a knee board
or if you're using a scratch padfunction for flight or if you
(15:38):
have an FMS that has a scratchpad on it.
Sierra five, sierra, sierra six, cross, three, right.
Then we're going to go whiskeysouth, and sometimes they'll say
whiskey south, but thatnormally confuses the shit out
of me.
So whiskey south, and thenwe're going to pick up Juliet,
juliet, eight.
So, like I had sit, you hadnine steps in years, I have six
(16:03):
in mind, but I was trying toavoid the potholes.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
This is, seems, who cares.
Who cares about that bearing?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You're so ridiculous like yeah, it's, it's the class
problem.
We're also not controllers, sothey sometimes will omit things
that are like like easy to see,we don't.
They can store, hand things andbe like okay, they're gonna
figure it out.
I'm not gonna say every littlestep, if I can just say taxi to
(16:28):
a.
Um, well, this case we do haveto cross runway, so that makes
it kind of looted.
But uh, taxi to runway nine orright via Sierra or Sierra six,
whiskey juliet, juliet eight,and get to Sierra or get to
Sierra six, however you want.
So that already omits twotaxiways.
(16:52):
That we were saying this justseems like such an antiquated
system to me Like if you knowwhat is right now.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I understand that, but, like if you, would have
told me to drive to your house.
You would just give me youraddress.
You wouldn't tell me okay,you're gonna turn onto both road
and then you're gonna turn onthe bogart road, then you're
gonna turn on to Our rye beachroad and then you're gonna turn
on to route two and then you'regonna you wouldn't help, like
that's what people did like 25years ago.
Nobody's doing that anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Why would you swipe, if you swipe up, if you swipe up
on the apple Maps, it'llactually give you direction.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I realize it will, but nobody does that.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
My wife does it.
That's how I know it works likethat and I like.
I see the screen, I have noidea what to do with it.
I'm like where's the map right?
Speaker 3 (17:38):
people ask me, like when I like, if I go to pick
something up or something, orlike go somewhere.
Oh, what route did you take inhere?
I?
I followed the blue line.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I drove from south florida to northern ohio.
Right like my dad's like didyou take that route, or that.
I'm like I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
It blows my mind that they're still giving like.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Follow the blue line, stop for gas, listen to
podcasts.
No idea where I was exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, where are you at?
I don't know.
I'm on.
I'm on a road.
What road?
I don't, I don't know.
I'm no idea what's staying,even in.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, so anyway, but isn't this is our taxi
instructions?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Well, I refuse to.
I refuse to taxi.
We're gonna do another episodewhen they figure out.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
When they figure out how to do it better.
Scott, we will make anotherepisode update.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And Scott, if you have great audience, I mean.
I mean they could okay on pointsuggestions.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
He's gonna talk about AI and computers.
No.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
They do have a guys, they do have simplified taxi
routes, they do have things likethat.
Here we are making up ascenario and we're playing atc,
guessing what they would say.
They might not say hardly anyof this.
They may pair this down to Halfof what we are trying to do.
What if they just say get therevia whiskey Juliet Juliet 8.
(18:57):
Anybody can anybody.
Of course, we have to cross therunway and that's the only
reason that in this scenariothat we have to add Three more
items.
If there wasn't a runway there,it could be get to whiskey
However you want and taxiwhiskey Juliet Juliet 8 to 9,
right?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
151 whiskey, whiskey, whiskey.
Cleared across 2, 1, 3 taxi toniner.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Right the Whiskey Juliet, juliet 8, hold short
niner right one whiskey, whiskeycleared 3, 2, 1 whiskey Juliet
Juliet 8, niner right Somethinglike that.
(19:43):
I don't know close enough share.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I'm atc, I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
He probably didn't even listen to your response.
He's gonna watch you as youtaxi around now one thing, this
is a class bravo.
So you need to have youraltitude, your transponder on
for this, just so everybodyknows, because they have ground
asd ex, asdx, I care, asd ex, Ithink and this is a basically
(20:10):
ground surveillance radar.
They will, they're yourtransponder, they will watch you
on a radar scope from yourtransponder, not just visually
out the window, they will watchyou on a radar scope basically
as you taxi around on the ground.
So you need to have yourtransponder on while you, before
you move on a in a At a classbravo.
(20:33):
Airport.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So he technically should have.
I should have issued him atransponder code then when he
first called.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Um, yeah, because he would be flying in a class bravo
.
So yeah, that's true too.
Okay, I'm not a controllereither, I mean I miss certainly
see the flaws in this scenariohere.
None of us are controllers.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
We all want to make sure that's very clear.
Okay trying to make.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I think that is abundantly clear at this point
educational as possible.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Without a member of the air traffic controller
community as a guest, we get anATC.
We'll probably do an episodeJust howling him with questions,
but if we get regular, it'd befun to do this with someone
who's actually atc.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Um yeah, we can make that happen sometime.
Okay, god, more people to laughat us, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Okay, so we got to the runway, did we Scott what?
Speaker 1 (21:24):
are you doing?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I'm not seeing Scott move on on my radar attack here.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, I'm, I moved.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I'm rolling, I'm there, I'm at nine.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
He's at nine right.
You're at holding short nine,right.
Okay, so like, let's say,you've done all that for some
other reason, no airplane landson top of you and you didn't
have a runway incursion ortaxiway incursion.
No issues, you get holdingshort of nine right at you,
haven't?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
you haven't been given a phone number to call.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, that too.
So you're holding short of nine, right, scott?
Yeah, and what it is so hard.
And this is why scenario basedtraining is effective, because
it makes you think A little bitmore into the scenario than you
ordinarily would.
You were talking on ground, andso when you get to the runway,
(22:16):
what do you need to do?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Uh hold Short, yeah, hold short of the runway.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, but but if you're talking on ground, what
do you need to do?
No, with your radios.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I made it to the runway.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Okay, tell who controllers.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Switch frequencies right switch without that
challenge.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Don't you wait till they tell you to yes, yes, no to
switch.
Now if, when you get to therunway, you just switch to tower
?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
I'd be switched before I got to the runway.
I'm not waiting for them, Iwant to be listening what's
going on sooner and unlessthere's an obvious reason that I
may need to hold short of ataxiway, like if and we're
drawing too much out of thisdiagram, I'm kind of seeing
maybe the the Errors of thethought process you're doing it
(23:14):
this way, but this diagram isnot show the potholes of Detroit
.
Well, if you're on julia there'sa multiple taxiways that
parallel Um that could get youto nine right, and unless
there's an obvious reason that Ishould maybe not keep
monitoring ground basically tillthe last minute, I'm going to
switch over to tower and startgetting a feel for who's getting
(23:36):
cleared to land, what runwaythey're getting cleared on and
kind of where my sequence is,because I have other
considerations.
I need to worry about gettingthe other engines started,
things like that, and gettingchecklist done.
So I'm I want to be much morein tune with the big picture of
what's going on at Detroit metro, not just Like I don't know.
I need, I need a wider feelersthan just what ground can give
(23:59):
me.
So I tend to, and maybe I pushit a little bit too early and
get on tower Um Too early.
Maybe I missed something andmaybe I've pissed controllers
off in the past.
I don't think so, but maybe ithappens.
But yeah, I, they don't.
I don't wait for them to tellme to switch Some, and
occasionally they will tell meto switch way before I would.
Then I would normally,obviously, if they tell me to
(24:23):
early, way early, I do you know.
But if I don't hear anythingWithin, like if I'm taxiing on a
parallel runway, if you canpicture this, and I'm probably
2,000 feet prior to the end ofthe runway.
I'm hard, I'm already switchedfor sure.
So 2,000 feet prior to the endof the runway if I'm on a
(24:43):
parallel taxiway.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
If all there is is a taxiway going to the end and
you're not crossing any, theground has written you off.
Anyway, he's headed in thatdirection on that taxiway.
Yeah he is not grounds, he'snot your problem anymore.
That's how I'm assuming theylook at it as.
Again, make this very clear I'mnot an air traffic controller,
I'm just playing one on tv, onon podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Um, okay, so, uh, so.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I'm a tower controller sitting here
wondering what this baron'sdoing.
And I go Metro tower 151whiskey, whiskey 151 whiskey
whiskey metro tower go ahead 151whiskey whiskey holding short
nine right waiting for clearance, waiting for takeoff clearance
(25:42):
151 whiskey, whiskey clearedRunway and niner right lineup
and weight 151 whiskey.
Whiskey niner right lineup andweight.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So you line up and you get.
First time I've heard this wasin the Bahamas, was before the
us that adopted it and I thoughtit was just island talk.
You know slang.
And then now, if sun, we're allusing it.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
What's line up and wait mean you get on the runway
and just sit there, uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I got traffic coming in on three right yeah we used
so now it's ikeo's phraseologyis line up and wait.
We used to say position holdYep, and now it's lined up and
wait 151 whiskey.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Whiskey clear for takeoff 151 whiskey.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Whiskey clear for takeoff.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
All right, you're throwing those baron throttles
up.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Oh man, I don't know how to play a twin.
I freak out as long as bothengines keep going.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
It's a single, you're good.
It's a new baron, you're funny.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I realize I'm underqualified, so I chop the
power and I take the closesttaxiway and I jump out of the
plane and run as fast as I canyeah away from the airport.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
That's gonna draw too much attention.
You just make it back to pcw,you'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So we've taken off, we take off.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Uneventful Yep.
I had an.
East, now Climbing right up,climb up to a thousand feet, a
GL Soon.
As you get out of the class,bravo, you shut the radios off.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Just shut them off right after takeoff dude, why
wait so long?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
All right, so who would the next?
What would the next thing be,though, guys?
If you know, he just takes off.
The next radio calls from who?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
from the tower, probably, as.
I see him approaching the theedge of the Bravo airspace, I'd
probably make some sort of call.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
No, no, probably a lot of 500 feet contact
departure.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm tower, okay, 151 whiskey,
whiskey, contact tower.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Blah, blah, blah contact departure Good good.
Contact departure good at 151whiskey, whiskey blah blah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Over the departure you can only blah, blah, blah
the frequency.
That's what I did I blah, blah,blah the frequency.
Okay, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
You would just say that I just said the frequency.
I don't need to say departure.
If I say the frequencycorrectly, they don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I Would just say over to departure.
I wouldn't even repeat thefrequency, I just say like, in
theory, you'd have your con,your everything set up correctly
already in your calm one,ground and tower on your Standby
and number two you'd havedeparture.
So it's always there to justfeed in.
That's where it is, so you andso calm one is ground, ground
(28:34):
and tower.
On number two is gonna beclearance and departure.
That should be your typicalsetup.
That's gonna be kind of yourprimary order.
You're probably hopefully notgonna need clearance and then
you just remember in standby isgonna be your departure and then
once you switch to towerWhether they've told you to or
you've just done on your ownvolition you've put tower and
(28:57):
active on number one, putDeparture in standby on number
one.
So that way when they say overto departure, you don't have to
repeat a frequency, just hopethat it's right, but be
confident in your you know, makesure that you know that it's
right I guess is the thing andthen just yeah, to switch it,
say over departure, see it andflip it.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Okay, so now I'm I'm departure now.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Metro departure 151 whiskey whiskey 151 whiskey.
Whiskey go ahead.
151 whiskey whiskey DepartingMetro to the east, to PCW.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
They already know all that cuz.
It's class brav when you toldthe, you told that to clearance,
clearance that we skipped cuz Ididn't know.
Yeah, we kind of skipped well,and it's hard to get that's
again.
That's why scenario-basedtraining is effective, because
it uncovers these things.
But it is very hard to get inthe mindset like like.
Even for me, like via far and aclass brav, I've done like
(30:03):
twice ever in my life and maynever do it again.
But it it's hard to get in thezone like the chair flying, like
it real, make sure it's realand that's how you kind of drop
the ball sometimes is thescenario, because scenario
training is is harder to getyour mind wrapped around.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
So he, he wanted to give you all that stuff which
would have been for them.
He's making a call like he wascontacting Cleveland, like
Detroit approach to tradedeparture, as though he was
doing an initial call up forflight following.
Not all bad, just, they alreadyknow everything.
So all you're gonna say on,they've told you kind of
(30:45):
departure, you're getting this,this chain of custody, if you
will right.
So all you're gonna say Detroitdeparture, baron 151 whiskey,
whiskey 1.2, meaning 1200,climbing, whatever 3500, because
they already know everythingelse.
So tell them so they can cry,because they have to radar
(31:06):
identify you.
They have to radar identify you.
So they will call out to youyou know your radar contact
altitude indicates whatever.
And yeah, I mean, that's prettymuch it.
So they so giving them thealtitude you're leaving.
If you don't tell them that,they're just gonna ask you say
altitude leaving.
(31:27):
So you just kind of cut them tothe chase.
So you have one whiskey.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Whiskey say altitude leaving.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Leaving 500 for 1000 Hgl.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I managed a also one thousand second.
I don't know what I just said.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Hgl, because I don't know what the altitude is there.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, about the same as here 151.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Whiskey.
Whiskey had 090.
They give you the clearance.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
They probably just say maintain via far and course,
for the most part okay.
Or they'd say fly run.
The departure tower Would havesaid fly runway, heading clear
for takeoff nine or right it?
Just a pet like we're just kindof making up stuff.
But they obviously need topositively control you with such
a busier space.
Yeah so they probably did.
They probably told you tomaintain runway heading and and
(32:24):
then after takeoff, when you goover to departure, radar
controlled now, they'll probablygive you a couple simple
headings for a little bit untilyou're outside the lateral
boundaries of the class Bravo,which I don't want to pull that
chart up, I don't really care,but I mean, I get, I care, but I
don't want to do that much work.
Once you're out of lateralboundaries They'll just say via
(32:45):
far on course, or maintain viafar on course, or proceed on
course.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I guess this one five , one whiskey, whiskey.
Continue runway heading.
Maintain VFR, on course.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
One, five, one whiskey.
Whiskey VFR, on course.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
All right Now that now I probably make the call
when I see Scott leaving the thecircle right.
That big wedding cake.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, it just depends they may.
They, the Detroit, willprobably want to hand you like,
cut you loose as much as you can.
But they may also ask youworkload permitting.
Right, that you know?
Do you want to Continue theflight following?
You know what do you want to do.
Or if they're too busy, they'llsay squawk via far for good or
flight.
Well, they say radar serviceterminated, squawk via far,
(33:33):
frequency change approved.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
If they're busy, okay , we're busy, so here so.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
They're probably gonna cut you loose, but they've
always been so as busy as theyare.
They've always been superaccommodating to me when I've
gone in there.
Vfr Back on day.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, 151 whiskey, whiskey.
Radar service terminated squawkvia.
Far Good day.
I say right, yeah, there's anextra thing you said in there.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I think we're gonna change approved.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Frequency change approved.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yeah, yeah 151 whiskey, whiskey, good day.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah yeah, that's simple enough.
I typically say via far andadvisories is what I say, which
is like nowhere near correct.
But I just simplify it via farand advice, so squawk via far
and Freakin change approved.
I just say via far and advisoryfrequency Because I guess that
is a long thing.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Can I just say good day.
Like they know what it means.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
There's no real requirement foryou to say anything Because,
remember, you're going from,you're going from Critical
airspace to non-critical.
You're going, you know, I meanfrom them controlling you to
them, like I don't care anymore.
You know I'm washing my handsof you, like then things don't
need to be specific.
(34:49):
But if you're entering theairspace, you want to be a lot
more on it and basically verb asclose to verbatim, as like what
is a reasonable which.
That experience comes with time, what you need to repeat back
and what you don't.
Um, that would be a lot morecritical.
If you're coming into theairspace, you know Getting
getting in the flow, doing whatthey want and making sure you're
(35:11):
on the same page.
When you're exiting theairspace and You've given there,
like there's no indication thatyou're going to be any more of
a headache all the informationyou've given them from from
startup, is that you're Leavingthe airspace in the most
efficient manner possible.
The direction, the altitude,altitude where you're going, and
all those things are basicallycongruent with each other.
(35:32):
They were the quicker you getout, the better, and then you
don't need the further away fromthe premier report, the less
specific you need to be.
I think it's the best, probablywait for me.
To sum it up, I.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, so yeah.
That concludes my role ofAirTrap Controller.
I got that Great jobPractically student pilot out of
my airspace, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
I'm going to start going.
If I was really doing it, Iwould have told them I was a
student right away.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Okay, yeah, all right , we got to wait.
Lee's gone now we have no ideawe're talking about anymore.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We are.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, so okay, lee's back.
We got our CFI back here totell us what we're doing wrong
going back into Portland.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Oh, we're continuing the flight.
I thought we were done milkjugging it up.
Oh no, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
We're going to continue this flight to PCW
because that's some of the most.
We did a flight I forget whereit was, it was like I think it
was Kelly's Island to BurkeLakefront and it took us 45
minutes to get off of Kelly's.
So I'm like this is going to beinteresting going back into a
uncontrolled airport, becausethis is our specialty.
(36:52):
All three of us have someopinions on this.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Well, I've made some missteps here in what should be
like my base repertoire.
Now, normally, if I'm alwaysIFR, well, not normally I'm
99.9% of the time IFR.
So, going VFR to class Bravo,tyler raised a good point in the
chat Like, yeah, you need tocall clearance first at a class
Bravo.
If we put to bed at a classCharlie, it's not necessarily
(37:17):
required, but you need to getyour ATIS because they'll want
you to call clearance.
Are you breaking a regulationor kind of an FAR or, I'm sorry,
something in the aim?
If you don't, not necessarilyjust because it's on the ATIS.
People omit the ATIS and allkinds of stuff all the time and
they may say contact.
(37:37):
They'll just tell you youcontact ground.
They'll just tell you, hey, doyou talk clearance?
No, well, contact clearance.
So it's not the end of theworld.
But yeah, it pays dividends.
I think the point here is itpays dividends.
Have your ATIS stuff in line.
So you know, maybe ground's noteven on the normal frequency,
maybe ground's not end out,maybe you're on 2165 versus 21.9
(38:00):
because ground is out, or maybeground and tower are combined.
There's a lot of reasons,innumerable reasons really, to
make sure you listen to ATISfirst, get the code, you sound
professional, signature, readyto taxi with golf, super easy.
And then like whatever thatbeing signatures, where you are,
(38:21):
you're telling them what you'reready to do taxi and you have
the ATIS information, golf.
That tells them all they needto know.
And you don't sound like anidiot either, you sound
professional.
Now, downside of that and Ithink I've said this before you
sound professional out of thegate.
They tend to treat you that wayas well, so they can go give
the taxi instructions youinitially did, which is like CR5
(38:45):
, cr7, cr1, Victor, papa, papa,papa, juliet, juliet, eight.
And I may have missed somethingelse because my pen wasn't
working, but it's like, yeah,can I get progressive taxi
instructions then?
Because that sucks.
What you just read to me sucks.
So most of the time I would sayit's better to sound
(39:08):
professional.
But that is an unintendedconsequence.
Sometimes is that they treatyou like one, two, and it
catches me off guard toosometimes.
I had it one time happen inAtlanta.
They gave me some.
I sounded what I thought wassuper professional.
They gave me some taxinstructions.
I'm like, yeah, I messed it uplike three times before I got it
right and I halfway know whatI'm doing.
That's just the way it is.
They give you a route, adifferent direction than what
(39:30):
you thought.
You start, you turn rightinstead of left, out of the main
like area.
It's like I'm already like lost, you know, so so you're better
off sounding like an idiot.
Yeah, I knew you'd go there.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Um yeah but I mean like I.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Just my ego is too big.
I want to sound when I can.
I want to sound as professionalas I can.
Uh, that's, that's just.
That's just me, that's justwhat I want.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Um, and it can bite you, but in this case it's live
eight is recordings from PapaBoris.
I support that.
We need to create an eight iswith your dad's voice, as just
have like oh, could you imagine,yeah, could you imagine.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Even says, when I dropped them off Friday evening
Amen, my dad, we're, we'rehanging out Friday night, oh
yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Okay, um, so we're flying PCW.
Still, I think we've somewhatgotten there.
It's a Baron, so we're kind ofapproaching PCW from the West
now aren't we Yep From the NorthNorthwest Cause I mean, you got
a twin.
You.
You took the B B lined it overthe lake there.
(40:39):
Why?
Why go around when you're in atwin?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yeah, let's hear, unless you're overloaded.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So what's that?
How do you approach thatairport?
Let's get more into whereyou're at in the pattern.
I think that makes more sensewhen it's not tower.
It's kind of I don't know.
Maybe it's self-explanatory,maybe not.
You can answer it in the in thechat and on pilot ground After
you listen to this in thepodcast feed.
But I feel like it's way moreimportant in the VFR to say
where you are, like when'syou're flying in.
(41:07):
You know how are you.
How are you going to approachthis?
Coming into PCW and the Baronnow.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Uh, well, about 10 miles out, I'm going to say a
Portland traffic.
Uh, one whiskey, whiskey, baron.
One whiskey, whiskey is 10 tothe.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Baron 151 whiskey, whiskey.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Always on the initial call, getting the habit on the
initial call you hack, not onlywhen you're talking to ATC, not
when you're talking to traffic.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
No, because here's the problem.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
If you don't do it, then on CTAS you're not going to
do it when you do ATC as well.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Hack hack.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Nobody cares.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Put some training wheels on that, Baron man.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
I always did the last three of the 150 when I had my
tail number, unless you'retalking to air traffic control.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
And I knew this converse.
I knew this was going to comeup when I was thinking about
this episode.
So I did some research.
In my hours I spent on tailnumbers and I realized the last
three of my old plane is forsale.
So I actually emailed the guyand asked him how much.
I'm just curious because then Icould.
Then I could just say what I'vealways said in the next
(42:25):
aircraft I get and I wouldn't becutting it off short.
You know what I mean.
Lee couldn't bitch and moanbecause it's like no, that's the
tail number, I'm not cuttinganything off.
That would be worth I don'tknow a couple hundred bucks for
me.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
So run it past me again.
What would you be able to get?
Speaker 1 (42:48):
I don't want to say the term November 207?
.
Yeah, see, it's for sale rightnow.
There's a whole aftermarket forthese tail numbers I just
discovered recently, so I'vebeen.
There's a bunch of tail numbersI've been acquired.
There's some people who sellthem.
I might try to get one of themon the show, just because I'm
fascinated by a lot of this.
I'm sure they have someinteresting.
(43:08):
We could probably make an hourepisode of that anyway, On your
initial call up.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I recommend.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Nobody tried to bid me up.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
First type and your full N number, your full call
sign if you're in anothercountry, so that the habit is
there when you're talking to ATC.
This is just what you do.
If I'm doing laps in thepattern with a student, I just
did this.
So I mean my initial call wasI'm five to the northeast
(43:41):
inbound nine or poor Clinton.
I just did this.
So I do the full call sign.
Then as I get closer I've madeI make it entering downwind left
base and final, by the time Iget to final I'm one whiskey,
whiskey short final, nine orpoor Clinton.
That's all I'm doing.
I'm not doing poor Clinton.
Traffic says no 151 whiskey,whiskey five, northeast inbound
(44:04):
nine or poor Clinton.
I just say that one initially,but then as I get progressively
closer I'm still saying poorClinton traffic.
I like seeing it at the front,at the end, like book ending it
so that they missed thebeginning.
Cause, like me, when my wife'stalking to me like I missed the
first half of everything shesays and then she'll like say
the second half again.
It's like no, I caught thesecond half, you need to tell me
(44:25):
the first half again because Iwasn't listening.
So that's the same way I kindof treat my radio communication
etiquette is I poor Clinton,traffic system 151 whiskey
whiskey entering left downwindnine or poor Clinton, okay, 151
whiskey whiskey left base nineor poor Clinton.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Hold on, let's see the Scott.
Scott, you got to go throughthis.
We got 10 minutes left in thisthis episode here.
You got to get this thing onthe Baron on the ground at KPCW.
Okay, you made that first call,you messed it up.
But you don't know you messedit up other than other than some
guy on the radio sitting arounddrinking a beer at the hangars
with his handheld, yelling atyou for messing that up.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I don't even know what.
Okay, I'm not going to use.
All I did was not use the full,full calcine right.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, I was just explaining why I have a stance.
I was just saying I'm not goingto use short tail numbers
Sometimes you put us have shorttail numbers like the
helicopters on yachts,billionaires, yachts that they
own.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Most of the ones I've seen when I was in that
industry have three character.
Tail numbers, very short.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
I don't think we can do that in the US.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, there's a bunch of them.
It's November, a number and twoletters.
I can think of three differenthelicopters.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Oh, yeah, yeah, but that's four though.
Okay, yeah, I'm not kidding,november, okay, gotcha, yeah,
yeah, three is the minimum youcan do.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, yeah, you're correct on it.
Yep, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
So anyway, poor Clinton traffic Baron, one
whiskey, whiskey five to thewest inbound for Clinton traffic
.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Okay, Now you've checked the whatever that
weather radio thing is right.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Yeah, so I guess I know which runway I'm using but
you're not really saying thatI'm at a non-control field.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
No but.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I would have said what runway.
I was tentatively on, but Ididn't check it.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
That's probably Niner .
Yeah, so you took off of out ofDetroit.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Similar.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
I don't know Probably .
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Let's pretend you're doing it in Niner.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Well, I would just want to say remember, sometimes
at class bigger airports, youknow, with airline service which
Detroit is, by large,predominantly airline service
they're going to use potentiallya downwind runway up to 10
knots for sure.
It takes like an hour to turnthe airport around.
(46:57):
So it's not a small.
They're going to do that asminimal as they can.
So you may be taking off nineat Detroit but you may be taking
off nine at Detroit with aneight-knot tailwind and then
when you go to uncontrolled Imean it's just advisory you can
(47:19):
land with the 29 tailwind and150 if you want to.
I'd certainly not recommend thatbut you can.
So I mean you can make it up.
That's why people say theactive, clearing the active and
all these things people say andcome up with and there's kind of
an expectation that you'regoing to use the runway that's
most in the wind.
But let's say the runway thatis perfectly into the wind is
(47:39):
2,000 feet long and there's aking here coming into land.
He's going to take a crosswindor a downwind before he's going
to land on a 2,000 foot longrunway.
So we just have to think aboutall the big picture of aircraft
performance and the differentairplanes are going to utilize
that airport.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, Niners is probably a good one to just go
with for the example purposes.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Sure yeah.
So my next call would bePortland traffic one whiskey,
whiskey downwind way nineer.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Portland.
Okay, I was wondering.
I didn't see anything wrongwith that, but I saw Lee
processing it and he gave a nod,so it must be a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, so entering left downwind is what I like to
say, because that is literallyverbatim.
What's in the aim, that's asuccess.
But obviously in my previous Iagree, in my previous life I
left downwind nineer Portland.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Well in the.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
But you wouldn't really honestly, coming from
Detroit, going into nine atPortland, you'd probably be
landing.
You probably wouldn't even beentering downwind, You'd
probably just go into a base anda final if not a long final.
Yeah, yeah, because that's kindof you're kind of going east the
whole time, but I mean that'skind of us having home field
advantage, knowing the layout ofthe area.
But yeah, for most people, ifyou were to like, if it's quiet
(49:13):
and you're tuned in to CTAP along way out in this evening or
something like that, or a slowday, just join a five-mile final
and come straight in.
You're taking off nine, you'relanding nine.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Okay, so you're downwind.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
And then one whiskey.
Whiskey base nine Portland.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Left base nine.
Nobody cares I do you only callit?
Speaker 3 (49:46):
out, if it's right yeah.
There's some wisdom in that Imean it's very rare that it's
really about a.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Why not just say right and left as appropriate?
Why not just say left and rightas appropriate?
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I like to minimize that congested frequency.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
But you've done, yeah , you've done.
You're going to do plenty ofother stuff.
That's not right.
At least here you're adding oh,like you're painting a 3D
composite image to somebodywho's like just entering the
pattern, like where is this guyexactly?
Or somebody tacking on theground, they're doing a run up,
they're on the.
It's just so many things.
(50:22):
There's so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Ian just said you got to follow that by a call left.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
final too Coming up, you got to call the left final.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, duh.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
It's a left traffic pattern Entering left, final
niner.
If it's niner left.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
I'm not saying left because left is the standard.
I only ever say which directionthe base is, if it's right.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
That's how I've always done it.
I mean, I can see Lee'sargument, but would I do that in
real world, gi flying?
I don't know, probably not.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
Yeah, I'd feel like a loser doing that.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
I don't know.
I think, yeah, well, I mean, Ifeel like the old timers would
be like.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Look at this guy.
Maybe sitting at the wholeround table, like of course it's
a left face you idiot.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
What was that?
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Lee's not laughing.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I don't even pay attention to you two anymore.
I'm trying to help Tyler andhis hunt for this class Charlie
thing to be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
So, scott, your next call.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
One whiskey, whiskey, final niner, poor Clinton.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
All right.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
I agree with that one .
That one was good.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
You land?
Are you done on the radio?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
then, oh yeah, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
You already turned it off, I shut it off, I shut it
off I just put the tiresattached to it.
I shut everything off.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Shut off the master.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yeah, why not?
Why not?
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Do you like to go to the radio?
Nope.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
What if there was somebody else coming in right
behind you, Scott?
Is there another calling inthat situation?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I guess I'd say clear the active, but I don't know if
I would Personally.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
I wouldn't actually, because, like they can see me,
Okay, I have done that beforewhen I know someone's coming in
right behind me.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
I don't know if I ever have Just to give them
peace of mind.
I guess, what good does that do?
They can see you there on theedge of their seat waiting for
you to be clear enough for theirwing to not hit your tail.
So, like making that callalthough it is kind of nice,
like a courtesy, I mean, they'rewatching every inch of that of
(52:47):
your airplane.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
They've been following you in for a couple of
minutes, listening toeverything you're doing, saying,
and they've been like workingaround you.
That's why, saying your types,they can kind of have an
assessment of where you are inrelationship, of what they are
like.
How fast is the 172 in front ofme flying when I'm coming in a
lear or whatever, so helping geteverybody on the same page as
(53:14):
to where or what conflicts aregoing to arise from the
differences in these aircraftspeed profiles and whatever.
And I think if I've already hadto adjust my pattern and adjust
my speed and do all thesethings to modify and make my
aircraft's performance profilework with yours, I'm going to be
(53:36):
acutely aware with, like whereyou are, probably, probably, and
making that call, althoughmight not be necessary, it is a
nice courtesy in case, likemaybe I'm on a down I misjudge
and I slow, it will wait toomuch and you're clearing the
runway when I think you shouldbe on left base.
Like maybe you wrapped aroundtight and you did all kinds of
(53:59):
cool pilot stuff That'd be great.
Making the call then and like,oh, I'm ahead of schedule, or
he's just had a head of schedulearound behind schedule,
whatever.
Whichever way you want to lookat it.
It is a nice courtesy and it isrecommended that you make the
call.
I make the call.
Sometimes I feel stupid after Ido it at a small airport, but
(54:23):
it's recommended to do and ifit's just easy to do, the right
thing is the wrong thing, whynot just do the right thing?
That's my thought.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
But yeah, it sounds good and dirty, but yeah, clear
off the runway.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Sometimes I go down that train, sometimes I
purposely don't, sometimes Idon't even think about it.
Yeah, yeah, that wraps up ourDetroit to Portland simulated
flight.
Thank you for listening.
Ladies and gentlemen, thatwraps up.
We're almost over right at anhour here.
Yeah, subscribe to the podcast.
(54:58):
Follow us on the Twitter, therumble Click all the description
below.
If you can join the ground crew, it covers our costs of
operating this shindig.
I'm in school for tech, so Igot some ideas.
I don't know if we'll be usingthe site the way it is anymore,
because I know how to like,start and learn how to code some
(55:19):
stuff, and I've got a bunch ofideas on how to actually make
pilot ground a lot better forpilots.
Yeah, time's an issue, but yeah, thanks for listening and we're
going to roll into the justafter chat bonus clip on the
live stream here, see you.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
All right, Thanks guys.
Helpurs Jane Aldvor fail andbacklogging, jumping and check
him out.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yeah, I'll see you guys next time.
Welcome to the Farrain Podcast.
This week we are doing aglorious flight
Telecommunications, you shouldsay, on the radio type episode.
We're going to do a mock flightto test not only Scott Boris's
skills on radio communication.
My skills as an air trafficcontroller which I am not are
(00:37):
going to be tested.
It should be extra bad.
Leo correct us, because he kindof knows.
He knows what he's doing on thepilot side and pretty much will
know that what I'm saying isnot what an air traffic
controller would say, but we'regoing to do it anyway.
Hopefully you learned somethingfrom this.
Yeah, let's roll right into it.
Mr Boris, you get your Detroitmap up there.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Of the airport yeah.
Airport diagram yeah, diagram.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Taxiways and stuff.
You see the east side, thatgeneral aviation.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, I see, yes, there are two spots of general
aviation.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
But I see this, I see the it's the one, the east, the
east side, on the right side ofthe diagram there.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
If you're following along, like, not don't do this
if you're driving, but if you'reat home, board and drinking or
something you hold up, followalong with us, okay.
So your tail number, the newofficial tail number of the
foreign podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
So do you want me to call?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
you?
What type of airplane are wedoing this in?
First of all, you got to choose.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Wow, I mean I says to one chip, because that's what I
got.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Oh, let's do something cooler.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well, let's do something different, because the
150, it's always bothered me.
A lot of the Cessna's do this.
They don't have a very easy andI don't know if it's just
because society is dictated thatwe don't say these.
But like a 150, commuter,nobody calls up commuter, nobody
calls up an assassin 206 as astation error.
(02:22):
Nobody does that.
It's unfortunate, but I tend tothink precision matters.
So I would prefer to use anairplane like you could say a
King Air, you could say aBonanza, you could say a Baron,
you could do one of those, aPilatus.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I can't fly any of those, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I just want to mix it up.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
We got a new tail number.
It's like I just don't want tothrow this brand new tail number
.
We registered with.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Skyhawk, at least Do whatever you want, just
something that we can say,because you want a Skymaster,
what are you?
Going to say Cessna 150?
.
Yeah, if you want to say Cessna150 every time, or at least
till we get the dialogue going,that's fine.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
What if I just said 150?
, c150.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, that's fine.
That's just kind of weird.
That's a kind of that is againit's just weird.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
You don't want to fly , Lee?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I don't want to.
Well, I have no problem with a150, other than nobody.
I hear ATC do this with flightfollowing.
All the time.
People call up in a 150 andthey just say Cessna, in this
case Cessna 151, whiskey,whiskey, and the controller is
going to be like, say, typeaircraft at some point in the
dialogue establishing you know,the flight following and the
(03:46):
data tag and all this stuff andthey have to go back.
But if you call up Skyhawk 151Whiskey, whiskey, the dude knows
it's a 172.
It's a C172.
You know what I mean.
That is the.
That's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
We do a Baron.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
It's got fly a Baron this time you want to fly a
Baron this time we're going tospend so much time on the ground
taxing before we get off theair.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
This is how all those episodes go.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
We need something a little quicker to get you back
over to PCW.
I don't even know how to fly aBaron.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I'm going to crash HGC doesn't know that.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Okay, scott, is there anything that you would
entertain saying instead ofCessna 150?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Or if you just say Cessna 150, that's fine, that'll
load.
Scott, we're changing the modeland the tail number.
Call sign.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Speedbird Aviation mic says use speedbird as the
call.
Speedbird yeah, speedbird 151Whiskey, whiskey Heavy.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Say heavy at the end too, All right, okay, well, this
is going great.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Scott, whatever, all right, fine, we'll use.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Baron.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
We'll use Baron.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
We got to use the call sign.
I paid $10 for it, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Per year.
Is it per year?
It's per year to hold it, ohman.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
We have it on hold now so we can use it on the show
as the official call sign nowand not worry about accidentally
saying somebody else is playing.
We shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
All right, Fire away guys.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Or Scott, I guess.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Here I go Detroit ground.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Already wrong.
It's a metro ground.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Oh, who cares?
They know what I'm talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
It says that right on the chart.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, they're going to correct you, but that's okay.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Metro ground Baron 151.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Whiskey Whiskey Rob 151 Whiskey Whiskey Metro Ground
.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Go ahead 151 Whiskey Whiskey.
Requesting taxi for departureto the east 151 Whiskey, whiskey
.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You have the current ATIS.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yep, this is very accurate.
Of what?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
would happen.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
What is the current ATIS?
I don't even know what to find.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
the current ATIS you know it just makes up, Mom.
Unless you tune in on radio orhave floor flight up, it's not
going to be able to easily tellthat it's one of the titles
Tyler's saying call clearance,which he's correct, but so go
into that, Leigh, let's breakthat down.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So typically in a class Bravo, I mean, you start
with clearance because you needclearance into the class Bravo
it's kind of the best way todescribe it.
So you'd get your ATIS justlike normal.
And for guys who are justprivate pilots and they don't
have an instrument, it's kind ofweird that you have to call
clearance even though you didn'tfile IFR.
And a lot of times it's just aformality.
But still, at a class Bravoairport and I would recommend it
(06:59):
to class Charlie, even thoughyou don't have to At a class
Charlie, class Bravo I wouldrecommend.
Well, at a class Bravo, I would.
At a class Charlie, I wouldrecommend Class Bravo.
You want to get your ATIS, callclearance and they'll give them
Most of the stuff that Scottjust said.
So it'd be fine.
I mean, you need to get theATIS code, which you're getting
at now, and then they would handyou off to give you clearance
(07:25):
and then they'd hand you off toground and then you'd basically
start your whole spiel back overagain, basically where you
started.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Okay, in.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Tyler St.
He thought it was required inCharlie as well.
I don't know.
I've done a lot of flying classCharlie VFR.
Very little in the class BravoVFR.
Class Charlie, I never did.
I don't think it's required.
I don't have any resources hereto look it up.
I wouldn't think it would be.
So, Tyler, if you want to dothat Because class.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
You don't need a clearance from Charlie, do you?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah Well, so if you look at like, if you're coming
into or traversing a classCharlie air space, you'll need
to hear your call sign, right?
So if you were to think of itin that context, think of it
outbound, it's kind of the samedeal as long as you hear your
call sign back.
It's kind of assumed that, like, you're cleared into where
class Bravo is the only onewhere you need to hear the word.
(08:18):
You're cleared into the classBravo or cleared through
whatever.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's the way I look at it.
He's looking at it, tyler'slooking for it now.
So maybe that'll give us somedefinitive proof.
But I'm, and I, like I said, Ido recommend it because then it
just keeps everything allparallel and concise and you
don't need to remember oh, I'min class Bravo, I do it this way
in class Charlie, I do it thisway.
I do recommend doing it thatway and keeping treating them
uniformly.
But Sue Sixier says D and C arethe same, only B requires
(08:53):
specific clearance.
Oh, and he said that's Ian.
So Tyler keep looking it up, iansaid.
Ian said I'm right, so youbetter keep looking it up, I'm
just joking.
I'm sure it's, I'm sure I'm.
I would think that's right.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Ian's in the chat, so it's finally somebody in our
periphery.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
But now he's going to tell us all the stuff that we
shouldn't really be saying.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So oh, I'm sure I didn't even know that about
clearance and I'm ATC, that'swhat I'm just going with it.
151, whiskey Whiskey.
Please verify, verify, you haveinformation.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Whiskey 151 Whiskey Whiskey has information Whiskey.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So here's the thing.
So right there, here's a protip.
Say you call up with Alright,let's say you call up with the
letter right before the currentone and they want you to have
the current one, and you say,okay, I've picked her.
And they say, let us know whenyou have information with me,
like, oh yeah, whiskey's what wegot.
(09:51):
I can't read my own handwriting.
That's what I always do itdoesn't change.
Just tell them you got whatthey said and tell them, why In
theory, it could change Intheory it could change there's
crazy weather coming in like afront's rolling through.
If it's rolling through, you cansee that out the window and you
should know.
But most of the time you're onthe right one.
(10:14):
I mean, would you get in anhour before you needed it?
Chances are you didn't do that.
Chances are you don't have anhour old weather that you're
calling them with.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But Hollywood did that to me once while I was
banter towing, and they didn'tmake me listen to it.
They said like 4-3, mike,change the whatever's now
current.
And then there's like nothingrelevance changed, you're fine,
or something along those lines.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
So you call up with the wrong one.
They said, oh, this is current,it had just changed.
Right, and that's the way theyshould.
But some places are kind oflike crazy about it.
I know Charlotte always used tobe like you know, let us know
when you have it, like incertain controllers, that's
their thing, like that's one oftheir shtick, they want you to
have the current thing.
And it's like I just landed 40minutes ago.
(11:06):
I see what it is now.
It's not any different.
You know, if all you change wasthe wind went from gusting to
10 instead of gusting to 12.
Like, what do I care?
But can it matter?
Absolutely, it's always betterto be on the other side, but
unless you know, if there's nota good reason, I don't know.
It doesn't make a mountain outof a molehill, is what I'm
(11:27):
saying.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Okay, 151, whiskey, whiskey, taxi 2, niner Wright.
Hold short Niner Wright viataxiway.
Victor 1, victor, papa, papa,Papa, juliet, juliet 8.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I'm actually going to need those taxi instructions
too.
I didn't know you were going togive me all everything.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
How would they usually do it?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well, normally they'd give you to the first crossing
the first.
Did you say cross nine left ortaxi nine right?
You said the same one twice.
So that was the first thingthat threw me.
You're going to taxi to nineright cross nine left.
You're going to taxi via Papa 5, papa would you say Victor.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I said S5S Victor 1, victor.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
S5S.
What the hell, when are you?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
S5 is the first one to get out of that little
general aviation area, s5 on theeast end.
Then why, would you?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Oh, I don't even know what that is.
There Signature, the only one Iknow of is actually up way up
in the northeast.
That's why I didn't know whereyou were starting either, oh
really.
By US customs.
Well, this part sucks.
Okay, let's say so, as long aseverybody knows where we are.
There's two general aviationareas.
You're on the far, you're onthe east east.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
This is Detroit metro .
Speaker 2 (12:59):
by the way, if anybody so there's one on the
east, like straight east, andthen there is one up in the like
pretty much the north, likealmost north central.
That's where I've always gone.
I don't even know what is overthere in that east one you're
talking about, but just I guessnow that we know, and now also
everybody else knows, why don'twe I'm trying to get a freaking-
(13:27):
ink to come out of this damnpen.
I know All right what you got,all right let's take this quick
top.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Let me duck, quack out the edit.
So I was saying S5 to S.
Well, I guess it'd be S7, thenV1V to P to PP to P to J to J.
(13:55):
Give them to nine, or rightthere.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, nine or right.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You said you want to take off to the east right.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Nine or right?
Yep, yeah, we're down souththere.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Okay, going east, yeah, so you're talking about
crossing.
I didn't want to take you on S1or S or S6 or any of that,
because it's all, it's Detroit,it's all potholes.
I got to kind of write routeyou around the airport around
the potholes Detroit has a lotof potholes Scott.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Can't they just like text me like a highlighted route
to take?
Wouldn't that be more efficient?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
How would they do that, lay, I don't know.
You know the route that I'mtrying to give them a taxi.
Let's say, hypothetically, theyhad to give them that route.
How would they tell them?
On that initial call when he'scalling from general aviation
area.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
All right, sierra five, sierra.
I would go Sierra six, cross,it'd be cross three right,
whiskey, juliet, juliet, seven.
So I'm going to write that down, as I just said Sierra five,
(15:17):
sierra.
So Sierra north.
Okay, if you guys are followingme, sierra six, cross.
And so, like if you have ascratch pad, I just do an X
typically for a cross threeright, if you have a knee board
or if you're using a scratch padfunction for flight or if you
(15:38):
have an FMS that has a scratchpad on it.
Sierra five, sierra, sierra six, cross, three, right.
Then we're going to go whiskeysouth, and sometimes they'll say
whiskey south, but thatnormally confuses the shit out
of me.
So whiskey south, and thenwe're going to pick up Juliet,
juliet, eight.
So, like I had sit, you hadnine steps in years, I have six
(16:03):
in mind, but I was trying toavoid the potholes.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
This is, seems, who cares.
Who cares about that bearing?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You're so ridiculous like yeah, it's, it's the class
problem.
We're also not controllers, sothey sometimes will omit things
that are like like easy to see,we don't.
They can store, hand things andbe like okay, they're gonna
figure it out.
I'm not gonna say every littlestep, if I can just say taxi to
(16:28):
a.
Um, well, this case we do haveto cross runway, so that makes
it kind of looted.
But uh, taxi to runway nine orright via Sierra or Sierra six,
whiskey juliet, juliet eight,and get to Sierra or get to
Sierra six, however you want.
So that already omits twotaxiways.
(16:52):
That we were saying this justseems like such an antiquated
system to me Like if you knowwhat is right now.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I understand that, but, like if you, would have
told me to drive to your house.
You would just give me youraddress.
You wouldn't tell me okay,you're gonna turn onto both road
and then you're gonna turn onthe bogart road, then you're
gonna turn on to Our rye beachroad and then you're gonna turn
on to route two and then you'regonna you wouldn't help, like
that's what people did like 25years ago.
Nobody's doing that anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Why would you swipe, if you swipe up, if you swipe up
on the apple Maps, it'llactually give you direction.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I realize it will, but nobody does that.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
My wife does it.
That's how I know it works likethat and I like.
I see the screen, I have noidea what to do with it.
I'm like where's the map right?
Speaker 3 (17:38):
people ask me, like when I like, if I go to pick
something up or something, orlike go somewhere.
Oh, what route did you take inhere?
I?
I followed the blue line.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I drove from south florida to northern ohio.
Right like my dad's like didyou take that route, or that.
I'm like I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
It blows my mind that they're still giving like.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Follow the blue line, stop for gas, listen to
podcasts.
No idea where I was exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, where are you at?
I don't know.
I'm on.
I'm on a road.
What road?
I don't, I don't know.
I'm no idea what's staying,even in.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, so anyway, but isn't this is our taxi
instructions?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Well, I refuse to.
I refuse to taxi.
We're gonna do another episodewhen they figure out.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
When they figure out how to do it better.
Scott, we will make anotherepisode update.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And Scott, if you have great audience, I mean.
I mean they could okay on pointsuggestions.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
He's gonna talk about AI and computers.
No.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
They do have a guys, they do have simplified taxi
routes, they do have things likethat.
Here we are making up ascenario and we're playing atc,
guessing what they would say.
They might not say hardly anyof this.
They may pair this down to Halfof what we are trying to do.
What if they just say get therevia whiskey Juliet Juliet 8.
(18:57):
Anybody can anybody.
Of course, we have to cross therunway and that's the only
reason that in this scenariothat we have to add Three more
items.
If there wasn't a runway there,it could be get to whiskey
However you want and taxiwhiskey Juliet Juliet 8 to 9,
right?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
151 whiskey, whiskey, whiskey.
Cleared across 2, 1, 3 taxi toniner.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Right the Whiskey Juliet, juliet 8, hold short
niner right one whiskey, whiskeycleared 3, 2, 1 whiskey Juliet
Juliet 8, niner right Somethinglike that.
(19:43):
I don't know close enough share.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I'm atc, I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
He probably didn't even listen to your response.
He's gonna watch you as youtaxi around now one thing, this
is a class bravo.
So you need to have youraltitude, your transponder on
for this, just so everybodyknows, because they have ground
asd ex, asdx, I care, asd ex, Ithink and this is a basically
(20:10):
ground surveillance radar.
They will, they're yourtransponder, they will watch you
on a radar scope from yourtransponder, not just visually
out the window, they will watchyou on a radar scope basically
as you taxi around on the ground.
So you need to have yourtransponder on while you, before
you move on a in a At a classbravo.
(20:33):
Airport.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So he technically should have.
I should have issued him atransponder code then when he
first called.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Um, yeah, because he would be flying in a class bravo
.
So yeah, that's true too.
Okay, I'm not a controllereither, I mean I miss certainly
see the flaws in this scenariohere.
None of us are controllers.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
We all want to make sure that's very clear.
Okay trying to make.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I think that is abundantly clear at this point
educational as possible.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Without a member of the air traffic controller
community as a guest, we get anATC.
We'll probably do an episodeJust howling him with questions,
but if we get regular, it'd befun to do this with someone
who's actually atc.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Um yeah, we can make that happen sometime.
Okay, god, more people to laughat us, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Okay, so we got to the runway, did we Scott what?
Speaker 1 (21:24):
are you doing?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I'm not seeing Scott move on on my radar attack here.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, I'm, I moved.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I'm rolling, I'm there, I'm at nine.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
He's at nine right.
You're at holding short nine,right.
Okay, so like, let's say,you've done all that for some
other reason, no airplane landson top of you and you didn't
have a runway incursion ortaxiway incursion.
No issues, you get holdingshort of nine right at you,
haven't?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
you haven't been given a phone number to call.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, that too.
So you're holding short of nine, right, scott?
Yeah, and what it is so hard.
And this is why scenario basedtraining is effective, because
it makes you think A little bitmore into the scenario than you
ordinarily would.
You were talking on ground, andso when you get to the runway,
(22:16):
what do you need to do?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Uh hold Short, yeah, hold short of the runway.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, but but if you're talking on ground, what
do you need to do?
No, with your radios.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I made it to the runway.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Okay, tell who controllers.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Switch frequencies right switch without that
challenge.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Don't you wait till they tell you to yes, yes, no to
switch.
Now if, when you get to therunway, you just switch to tower
?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
I'd be switched before I got to the runway.
I'm not waiting for them, Iwant to be listening what's
going on sooner and unlessthere's an obvious reason that I
may need to hold short of ataxiway, like if and we're
drawing too much out of thisdiagram, I'm kind of seeing
maybe the the Errors of thethought process you're doing it
(23:14):
this way, but this diagram isnot show the potholes of Detroit
.
Well, if you're on julia there'sa multiple taxiways that
parallel Um that could get youto nine right, and unless
there's an obvious reason that Ishould maybe not keep
monitoring ground basically tillthe last minute, I'm going to
switch over to tower and startgetting a feel for who's getting
(23:36):
cleared to land, what runwaythey're getting cleared on and
kind of where my sequence is,because I have other
considerations.
I need to worry about gettingthe other engines started,
things like that, and gettingchecklist done.
So I'm I want to be much morein tune with the big picture of
what's going on at Detroit metro, not just Like I don't know.
I need, I need a wider feelersthan just what ground can give
(23:59):
me.
So I tend to, and maybe I pushit a little bit too early and
get on tower Um Too early.
Maybe I missed something andmaybe I've pissed controllers
off in the past.
I don't think so, but maybe ithappens.
But yeah, I, they don't.
I don't wait for them to tellme to switch Some, and
occasionally they will tell meto switch way before I would.
Then I would normally,obviously, if they tell me to
(24:23):
early, way early, I do you know.
But if I don't hear anythingWithin, like if I'm taxiing on a
parallel runway, if you canpicture this, and I'm probably
2,000 feet prior to the end ofthe runway.
I'm hard, I'm already switchedfor sure.
So 2,000 feet prior to the endof the runway if I'm on a
(24:43):
parallel taxiway.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
If all there is is a taxiway going to the end and
you're not crossing any, theground has written you off.
Anyway, he's headed in thatdirection on that taxiway.
Yeah he is not grounds, he'snot your problem anymore.
That's how I'm assuming theylook at it as.
Again, make this very clear I'mnot an air traffic controller,
I'm just playing one on tv, onon podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Um, okay, so, uh, so.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I'm a tower controller sitting here
wondering what this baron'sdoing.
And I go Metro tower 151whiskey, whiskey 151 whiskey
whiskey metro tower go ahead 151whiskey whiskey holding short
nine right waiting for clearance, waiting for takeoff clearance
(25:42):
151 whiskey, whiskey clearedRunway and niner right lineup
and weight 151 whiskey.
Whiskey niner right lineup andweight.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So you line up and you get.
First time I've heard this wasin the Bahamas, was before the
us that adopted it and I thoughtit was just island talk.
You know slang.
And then now, if sun, we're allusing it.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
What's line up and wait mean you get on the runway
and just sit there, uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I got traffic coming in on three right yeah we used
so now it's ikeo's phraseologyis line up and wait.
We used to say position holdYep, and now it's lined up and
wait 151 whiskey.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Whiskey clear for takeoff 151 whiskey.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Whiskey clear for takeoff.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
All right, you're throwing those baron throttles
up.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Oh man, I don't know how to play a twin.
I freak out as long as bothengines keep going.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
It's a single, you're good.
It's a new baron, you're funny.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I realize I'm underqualified, so I chop the
power and I take the closesttaxiway and I jump out of the
plane and run as fast as I canyeah away from the airport.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
That's gonna draw too much attention.
You just make it back to pcw,you'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So we've taken off, we take off.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Uneventful Yep.
I had an.
East, now Climbing right up,climb up to a thousand feet, a
GL Soon.
As you get out of the class,bravo, you shut the radios off.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Just shut them off right after takeoff dude, why
wait so long?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
All right, so who would the next?
What would the next thing be,though, guys?
If you know, he just takes off.
The next radio calls from who?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
from the tower, probably, as.
I see him approaching the theedge of the Bravo airspace, I'd
probably make some sort of call.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
No, no, probably a lot of 500 feet contact
departure.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm tower, okay, 151 whiskey,
whiskey, contact tower.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Blah, blah, blah contact departure Good good.
Contact departure good at 151whiskey, whiskey blah blah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Over the departure you can only blah, blah, blah
the frequency.
That's what I did I blah, blah,blah the frequency.
Okay, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
You would just say that I just said the frequency.
I don't need to say departure.
If I say the frequencycorrectly, they don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I Would just say over to departure.
I wouldn't even repeat thefrequency, I just say like, in
theory, you'd have your con,your everything set up correctly
already in your calm one,ground and tower on your Standby
and number two you'd havedeparture.
So it's always there to justfeed in.
That's where it is, so you andso calm one is ground, ground
(28:34):
and tower.
On number two is gonna beclearance and departure.
That should be your typicalsetup.
That's gonna be kind of yourprimary order.
You're probably hopefully notgonna need clearance and then
you just remember in standby isgonna be your departure and then
once you switch to towerWhether they've told you to or
you've just done on your ownvolition you've put tower and
(28:57):
active on number one, putDeparture in standby on number
one.
So that way when they say overto departure, you don't have to
repeat a frequency, just hopethat it's right, but be
confident in your you know, makesure that you know that it's
right I guess is the thing andthen just yeah, to switch it,
say over departure, see it andflip it.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Okay, so now I'm I'm departure now.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Metro departure 151 whiskey whiskey 151 whiskey.
Whiskey go ahead.
151 whiskey whiskey DepartingMetro to the east, to PCW.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
They already know all that cuz.
It's class brav when you toldthe, you told that to clearance,
clearance that we skipped cuz Ididn't know.
Yeah, we kind of skipped well,and it's hard to get that's
again.
That's why scenario-basedtraining is effective, because
it uncovers these things.
But it is very hard to get inthe mindset like like.
Even for me, like via far and aclass brav, I've done like
(30:03):
twice ever in my life and maynever do it again.
But it it's hard to get in thezone like the chair flying, like
it real, make sure it's realand that's how you kind of drop
the ball sometimes is thescenario, because scenario
training is is harder to getyour mind wrapped around.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
So he, he wanted to give you all that stuff which
would have been for them.
He's making a call like he wascontacting Cleveland, like
Detroit approach to tradedeparture, as though he was
doing an initial call up forflight following.
Not all bad, just, they alreadyknow everything.
So all you're gonna say on,they've told you kind of
(30:45):
departure, you're getting this,this chain of custody, if you
will right.
So all you're gonna say Detroitdeparture, baron 151 whiskey,
whiskey 1.2, meaning 1200,climbing, whatever 3500, because
they already know everythingelse.
So tell them so they can cry,because they have to radar
(31:06):
identify you.
They have to radar identify you.
So they will call out to youyou know your radar contact
altitude indicates whatever.
And yeah, I mean, that's prettymuch it.
So they so giving them thealtitude you're leaving.
If you don't tell them that,they're just gonna ask you say
altitude leaving.
(31:27):
So you just kind of cut them tothe chase.
So you have one whiskey.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Whiskey say altitude leaving.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Leaving 500 for 1000 Hgl.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I managed a also one thousand second.
I don't know what I just said.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Hgl, because I don't know what the altitude is there.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, about the same as here 151.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Whiskey.
Whiskey had 090.
They give you the clearance.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
They probably just say maintain via far and course,
for the most part okay.
Or they'd say fly run.
The departure tower Would havesaid fly runway, heading clear
for takeoff nine or right it?
Just a pet like we're just kindof making up stuff.
But they obviously need topositively control you with such
a busier space.
Yeah so they probably did.
They probably told you tomaintain runway heading and and
(32:24):
then after takeoff, when you goover to departure, radar
controlled now, they'll probablygive you a couple simple
headings for a little bit untilyou're outside the lateral
boundaries of the class Bravo,which I don't want to pull that
chart up, I don't really care,but I mean, I get, I care, but I
don't want to do that much work.
Once you're out of lateralboundaries They'll just say via
(32:45):
far on course, or maintain viafar on course, or proceed on
course.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I guess this one five , one whiskey, whiskey.
Continue runway heading.
Maintain VFR, on course.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
One, five, one whiskey.
Whiskey VFR, on course.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
All right Now that now I probably make the call
when I see Scott leaving the thecircle right.
That big wedding cake.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, it just depends they may.
They, the Detroit, willprobably want to hand you like,
cut you loose as much as you can.
But they may also ask youworkload permitting.
Right, that you know?
Do you want to Continue theflight following?
You know what do you want to do.
Or if they're too busy, they'llsay squawk via far for good or
flight.
Well, they say radar serviceterminated, squawk via far,
(33:33):
frequency change approved.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
If they're busy, okay , we're busy, so here so.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
They're probably gonna cut you loose, but they've
always been so as busy as theyare.
They've always been superaccommodating to me when I've
gone in there.
Vfr Back on day.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, 151 whiskey, whiskey.
Radar service terminated squawkvia.
Far Good day.
I say right, yeah, there's anextra thing you said in there.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I think we're gonna change approved.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Frequency change approved.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yeah, yeah 151 whiskey, whiskey, good day.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah yeah, that's simple enough.
I typically say via far andadvisories is what I say, which
is like nowhere near correct.
But I just simplify it via farand advice, so squawk via far
and Freakin change approved.
I just say via far and advisoryfrequency Because I guess that
is a long thing.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Can I just say good day.
Like they know what it means.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
There's no real requirement foryou to say anything Because,
remember, you're going from,you're going from Critical
airspace to non-critical.
You're going, you know, I meanfrom them controlling you to
them, like I don't care anymore.
You know I'm washing my handsof you, like then things don't
need to be specific.
(34:49):
But if you're entering theairspace, you want to be a lot
more on it and basically verb asclose to verbatim, as like what
is a reasonable which.
That experience comes with time, what you need to repeat back
and what you don't.
Um, that would be a lot morecritical.
If you're coming into theairspace, you know Getting
getting in the flow, doing whatthey want and making sure you're
(35:11):
on the same page.
When you're exiting theairspace and You've given there,
like there's no indication thatyou're going to be any more of
a headache all the informationyou've given them from from
startup, is that you're Leavingthe airspace in the most
efficient manner possible.
The direction, the altitude,altitude where you're going, and
all those things are basicallycongruent with each other.
(35:32):
They were the quicker you getout, the better, and then you
don't need the further away fromthe premier report, the less
specific you need to be.
I think it's the best, probablywait for me.
To sum it up, I.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, so yeah.
That concludes my role ofAirTrap Controller.
I got that Great jobPractically student pilot out of
my airspace, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
I'm going to start going.
If I was really doing it, Iwould have told them I was a
student right away.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Okay, yeah, all right , we got to wait.
Lee's gone now we have no ideawe're talking about anymore.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We are.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, so okay, lee's back.
We got our CFI back here totell us what we're doing wrong
going back into Portland.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Oh, we're continuing the flight.
I thought we were done milkjugging it up.
Oh no, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
We're going to continue this flight to PCW
because that's some of the most.
We did a flight I forget whereit was, it was like I think it
was Kelly's Island to BurkeLakefront and it took us 45
minutes to get off of Kelly's.
So I'm like this is going to beinteresting going back into a
uncontrolled airport, becausethis is our specialty.
(36:52):
All three of us have someopinions on this.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Well, I've made some missteps here in what should be
like my base repertoire.
Now, normally, if I'm alwaysIFR, well, not normally I'm
99.9% of the time IFR.
So, going VFR to class Bravo,tyler raised a good point in the
chat Like, yeah, you need tocall clearance first at a class
Bravo.
If we put to bed at a classCharlie, it's not necessarily
(37:17):
required, but you need to getyour ATIS because they'll want
you to call clearance.
Are you breaking a regulationor kind of an FAR or, I'm sorry,
something in the aim?
If you don't, not necessarilyjust because it's on the ATIS.
People omit the ATIS and allkinds of stuff all the time and
they may say contact.
(37:37):
They'll just tell you youcontact ground.
They'll just tell you, hey, doyou talk clearance?
No, well, contact clearance.
So it's not the end of theworld.
But yeah, it pays dividends.
I think the point here is itpays dividends.
Have your ATIS stuff in line.
So you know, maybe ground's noteven on the normal frequency,
maybe ground's not end out,maybe you're on 2165 versus 21.9
(38:00):
because ground is out, or maybeground and tower are combined.
There's a lot of reasons,innumerable reasons really, to
make sure you listen to ATISfirst, get the code, you sound
professional, signature, readyto taxi with golf, super easy.
And then like whatever thatbeing signatures, where you are,
(38:21):
you're telling them what you'reready to do taxi and you have
the ATIS information, golf.
That tells them all they needto know.
And you don't sound like anidiot either, you sound
professional.
Now, downside of that and Ithink I've said this before you
sound professional out of thegate.
They tend to treat you that wayas well, so they can go give
the taxi instructions youinitially did, which is like CR5
(38:45):
, cr7, cr1, Victor, papa, papa,papa, juliet, juliet, eight.
And I may have missed somethingelse because my pen wasn't
working, but it's like, yeah,can I get progressive taxi
instructions then?
Because that sucks.
What you just read to me sucks.
So most of the time I would sayit's better to sound
(39:08):
professional.
But that is an unintendedconsequence.
Sometimes is that they treatyou like one, two, and it
catches me off guard toosometimes.
I had it one time happen inAtlanta.
They gave me some.
I sounded what I thought wassuper professional.
They gave me some taxinstructions.
I'm like, yeah, I messed it uplike three times before I got it
right and I halfway know whatI'm doing.
That's just the way it is.
They give you a route, adifferent direction than what
(39:30):
you thought.
You start, you turn rightinstead of left, out of the main
like area.
It's like I'm already like lost, you know, so so you're better
off sounding like an idiot.
Yeah, I knew you'd go there.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Um yeah but I mean like I.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Just my ego is too big.
I want to sound when I can.
I want to sound as professionalas I can.
Uh, that's, that's just.
That's just me, that's justwhat I want.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Um, and it can bite you, but in this case it's live
eight is recordings from PapaBoris.
I support that.
We need to create an eight iswith your dad's voice, as just
have like oh, could you imagine,yeah, could you imagine.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Even says, when I dropped them off Friday evening
Amen, my dad, we're, we'rehanging out Friday night, oh
yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Okay, um, so we're flying PCW.
Still, I think we've somewhatgotten there.
It's a Baron, so we're kind ofapproaching PCW from the West
now aren't we Yep From the NorthNorthwest Cause I mean, you got
a twin.
You.
You took the B B lined it overthe lake there.
(40:39):
Why?
Why go around when you're in atwin?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yeah, let's hear, unless you're overloaded.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So what's that?
How do you approach thatairport?
Let's get more into whereyou're at in the pattern.
I think that makes more sensewhen it's not tower.
It's kind of I don't know.
Maybe it's self-explanatory,maybe not.
You can answer it in the in thechat and on pilot ground After
you listen to this in thepodcast feed.
But I feel like it's way moreimportant in the VFR to say
where you are, like when'syou're flying in.
(41:07):
You know how are you.
How are you going to approachthis?
Coming into PCW and the Baronnow.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Uh, well, about 10 miles out, I'm going to say a
Portland traffic.
Uh, one whiskey, whiskey, baron.
One whiskey, whiskey is 10 tothe.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Baron 151 whiskey, whiskey.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Always on the initial call, getting the habit on the
initial call you hack, not onlywhen you're talking to ATC, not
when you're talking to traffic.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
No, because here's the problem.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
If you don't do it, then on CTAS you're not going to
do it when you do ATC as well.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Hack hack.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Nobody cares.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Put some training wheels on that, Baron man.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
I always did the last three of the 150 when I had my
tail number, unless you'retalking to air traffic control.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
And I knew this converse.
I knew this was going to comeup when I was thinking about
this episode.
So I did some research.
In my hours I spent on tailnumbers and I realized the last
three of my old plane is forsale.
So I actually emailed the guyand asked him how much.
I'm just curious because then Icould.
Then I could just say what I'vealways said in the next
(42:25):
aircraft I get and I wouldn't becutting it off short.
You know what I mean.
Lee couldn't bitch and moanbecause it's like no, that's the
tail number, I'm not cuttinganything off.
That would be worth I don'tknow a couple hundred bucks for
me.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
So run it past me again.
What would you be able to get?
Speaker 1 (42:48):
I don't want to say the term November 207?
.
Yeah, see, it's for sale rightnow.
There's a whole aftermarket forthese tail numbers I just
discovered recently, so I'vebeen.
There's a bunch of tail numbersI've been acquired.
There's some people who sellthem.
I might try to get one of themon the show, just because I'm
fascinated by a lot of this.
I'm sure they have someinteresting.
(43:08):
We could probably make an hourepisode of that anyway, On your
initial call up.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I recommend.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Nobody tried to bid me up.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
First type and your full N number, your full call
sign if you're in anothercountry, so that the habit is
there when you're talking to ATC.
This is just what you do.
If I'm doing laps in thepattern with a student, I just
did this.
So I mean my initial call wasI'm five to the northeast
(43:41):
inbound nine or poor Clinton.
I just did this.
So I do the full call sign.
Then as I get closer I've madeI make it entering downwind left
base and final, by the time Iget to final I'm one whiskey,
whiskey short final, nine orpoor Clinton.
That's all I'm doing.
I'm not doing poor Clinton.
Traffic says no 151 whiskey,whiskey five, northeast inbound
(44:04):
nine or poor Clinton.
I just say that one initially,but then as I get progressively
closer I'm still saying poorClinton traffic.
I like seeing it at the front,at the end, like book ending it
so that they missed thebeginning.
Cause, like me, when my wife'stalking to me like I missed the
first half of everything shesays and then she'll like say
the second half again.
It's like no, I caught thesecond half, you need to tell me
(44:25):
the first half again because Iwasn't listening.
So that's the same way I kindof treat my radio communication
etiquette is I poor Clinton,traffic system 151 whiskey
whiskey entering left downwindnine or poor Clinton, okay, 151
whiskey whiskey left base nineor poor Clinton.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Hold on, let's see the Scott.
Scott, you got to go throughthis.
We got 10 minutes left in thisthis episode here.
You got to get this thing onthe Baron on the ground at KPCW.
Okay, you made that first call,you messed it up.
But you don't know you messedit up other than other than some
guy on the radio sitting arounddrinking a beer at the hangars
with his handheld, yelling atyou for messing that up.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I don't even know what.
Okay, I'm not going to use.
All I did was not use the full,full calcine right.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, I was just explaining why I have a stance.
I was just saying I'm not goingto use short tail numbers
Sometimes you put us have shorttail numbers like the
helicopters on yachts,billionaires, yachts that they
own.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Most of the ones I've seen when I was in that
industry have three character.
Tail numbers, very short.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
I don't think we can do that in the US.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, there's a bunch of them.
It's November, a number and twoletters.
I can think of three differenthelicopters.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Oh, yeah, yeah, but that's four though.
Okay, yeah, I'm not kidding,november, okay, gotcha, yeah,
yeah, three is the minimum youcan do.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, yeah, you're correct on it.
Yep, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
So anyway, poor Clinton traffic Baron, one
whiskey, whiskey five to thewest inbound for Clinton traffic
.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Okay, Now you've checked the whatever that
weather radio thing is right.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Yeah, so I guess I know which runway I'm using but
you're not really saying thatI'm at a non-control field.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
No but.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I would have said what runway.
I was tentatively on, but Ididn't check it.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
That's probably Niner .
Yeah, so you took off of out ofDetroit.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Similar.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
I don't know Probably .
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Let's pretend you're doing it in Niner.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Well, I would just want to say remember, sometimes
at class bigger airports, youknow, with airline service which
Detroit is, by large,predominantly airline service
they're going to use potentiallya downwind runway up to 10
knots for sure.
It takes like an hour to turnthe airport around.
(46:57):
So it's not a small.
They're going to do that asminimal as they can.
So you may be taking off nineat Detroit but you may be taking
off nine at Detroit with aneight-knot tailwind and then
when you go to uncontrolled Imean it's just advisory you can
(47:19):
land with the 29 tailwind and150 if you want to.
I'd certainly not recommend thatbut you can.
So I mean you can make it up.
That's why people say theactive, clearing the active and
all these things people say andcome up with and there's kind of
an expectation that you'regoing to use the runway that's
most in the wind.
But let's say the runway thatis perfectly into the wind is
(47:39):
2,000 feet long and there's aking here coming into land.
He's going to take a crosswindor a downwind before he's going
to land on a 2,000 foot longrunway.
So we just have to think aboutall the big picture of aircraft
performance and the differentairplanes are going to utilize
that airport.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, Niners is probably a good one to just go
with for the example purposes.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Sure yeah.
So my next call would bePortland traffic one whiskey,
whiskey downwind way nineer.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Portland.
Okay, I was wondering.
I didn't see anything wrongwith that, but I saw Lee
processing it and he gave a nod,so it must be a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, so entering left downwind is what I like to
say, because that is literallyverbatim.
What's in the aim, that's asuccess.
But obviously in my previous Iagree, in my previous life I
left downwind nineer Portland.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Well in the.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
But you wouldn't really honestly, coming from
Detroit, going into nine atPortland, you'd probably be
landing.
You probably wouldn't even beentering downwind, You'd
probably just go into a base anda final if not a long final.
Yeah, yeah, because that's kindof you're kind of going east the
whole time, but I mean that'skind of us having home field
advantage, knowing the layout ofthe area.
But yeah, for most people, ifyou were to like, if it's quiet
(49:13):
and you're tuned in to CTAP along way out in this evening or
something like that, or a slowday, just join a five-mile final
and come straight in.
You're taking off nine, you'relanding nine.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Okay, so you're downwind.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
And then one whiskey.
Whiskey base nine Portland.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Left base nine.
Nobody cares I do you only callit?
Speaker 3 (49:46):
out, if it's right yeah.
There's some wisdom in that Imean it's very rare that it's
really about a.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Why not just say right and left as appropriate?
Why not just say left and rightas appropriate?
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I like to minimize that congested frequency.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
But you've done, yeah , you've done.
You're going to do plenty ofother stuff.
That's not right.
At least here you're adding oh,like you're painting a 3D
composite image to somebodywho's like just entering the
pattern, like where is this guyexactly?
Or somebody tacking on theground, they're doing a run up,
they're on the.
It's just so many things.
(50:22):
There's so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Ian just said you got to follow that by a call left.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
final too Coming up, you got to call the left final.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, duh.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
It's a left traffic pattern Entering left, final
niner.
If it's niner left.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
I'm not saying left because left is the standard.
I only ever say which directionthe base is, if it's right.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
That's how I've always done it.
I mean, I can see Lee'sargument, but would I do that in
real world, gi flying?
I don't know, probably not.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
Yeah, I'd feel like a loser doing that.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
I don't know.
I think, yeah, well, I mean, Ifeel like the old timers would
be like.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Look at this guy.
Maybe sitting at the wholeround table, like of course it's
a left face you idiot.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
What was that?
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Lee's not laughing.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I don't even pay attention to you two anymore.
I'm trying to help Tyler andhis hunt for this class Charlie
thing to be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
So, scott, your next call.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
One whiskey, whiskey, final niner, poor Clinton.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
All right.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
I agree with that one .
That one was good.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
You land?
Are you done on the radio?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
then, oh yeah, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
You already turned it off, I shut it off, I shut it
off I just put the tiresattached to it.
I shut everything off.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Shut off the master.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yeah, why not?
Why not?
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Do you like to go to the radio?
Nope.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
What if there was somebody else coming in right
behind you, Scott?
Is there another calling inthat situation?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I guess I'd say clear the active, but I don't know if
I would Personally.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
I wouldn't actually, because, like they can see me,
Okay, I have done that beforewhen I know someone's coming in
right behind me.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
I don't know if I ever have Just to give them
peace of mind.
I guess, what good does that do?
They can see you there on theedge of their seat waiting for
you to be clear enough for theirwing to not hit your tail.
So, like making that callalthough it is kind of nice,
like a courtesy, I mean, they'rewatching every inch of that of
(52:47):
your airplane.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
They've been following you in for a couple of
minutes, listening toeverything you're doing, saying,
and they've been like workingaround you.
That's why, saying your types,they can kind of have an
assessment of where you are inrelationship, of what they are
like.
How fast is the 172 in front ofme flying when I'm coming in a
lear or whatever, so helping geteverybody on the same page as
(53:14):
to where or what conflicts aregoing to arise from the
differences in these aircraftspeed profiles and whatever.
And I think if I've already hadto adjust my pattern and adjust
my speed and do all thesethings to modify and make my
aircraft's performance profilework with yours, I'm going to be
(53:36):
acutely aware with, like whereyou are, probably, probably, and
making that call, althoughmight not be necessary, it is a
nice courtesy in case, likemaybe I'm on a down I misjudge
and I slow, it will wait toomuch and you're clearing the
runway when I think you shouldbe on left base.
Like maybe you wrapped aroundtight and you did all kinds of
(53:59):
cool pilot stuff That'd be great.
Making the call then and like,oh, I'm ahead of schedule, or
he's just had a head of schedulearound behind schedule,
whatever.
Whichever way you want to lookat it.
It is a nice courtesy and it isrecommended that you make the
call.
I make the call.
Sometimes I feel stupid after Ido it at a small airport, but
(54:23):
it's recommended to do and ifit's just easy to do, the right
thing is the wrong thing, whynot just do the right thing?
That's my thought.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
But yeah, it sounds good and dirty, but yeah, clear
off the runway.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Sometimes I go down that train, sometimes I
purposely don't, sometimes Idon't even think about it.
Yeah, yeah, that wraps up ourDetroit to Portland simulated
flight.
Thank you for listening.
Ladies and gentlemen, thatwraps up.
We're almost over right at anhour here.
Yeah, subscribe to the podcast.
(54:58):
Follow us on the Twitter, therumble Click all the description
below.
If you can join the ground crew, it covers our costs of
operating this shindig.
I'm in school for tech, so Igot some ideas.
I don't know if we'll be usingthe site the way it is anymore,
because I know how to like,start and learn how to code some
(55:19):
stuff, and I've got a bunch ofideas on how to actually make
pilot ground a lot better forpilots.
Yeah, time's an issue, but yeah, thanks for listening and we're
going to roll into the justafter chat bonus clip on the
live stream here, see you.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
All right, Thanks guys.
Helpurs Jane Aldvor fail andbacklogging, jumping and check
him out.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yeah, I'll see you guys next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!