Ever wondered if the Piper Colt aircraft, with its fabric construction, is a hidden gem in the aviation market? We're convinced it is, and we're here to tell you why! With its 4,000 total flight hours and 700 cents major overhauls, the Colt boasts a unique appeal, perfect for amateur flyers or those wanting a cost-effective entrance into the world of aviation. And with a price tag of 20 grand, it's a steal compared to the 25 grand you'd shell out for a Cessna 150 or 152.
Now, we know the fabric construction may raise some eyebrows amongst those familiar with the dominance of metal-cased planes. Thus, we've decided to take a deep dive into the world of fabric-based aircraft. We're discussing the costs, the necessary flight hours, and the maintenance issues you need to consider. Is it a risky venture or an exciting opportunity to experience a unique piece of aviation history? Well, that's for you to decide after listening to our lively debate comparing fabric planes and metal-cased ones. Strap on your seatbelts, folks - we're about to take off into an intriguing exploration of the Piper Colt aircraft!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This first one is Piper Colt for 20 grand.
That seem reasonable.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
That I mean that's in mine's not loading, so I don't
even know where we are.
Like I just went low to highand nothing is populating.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Says currently inspected 100nah horsepower
lycoming Two white leather seats.
They put in the descriptionbecause they won't give you a
photo.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Do you have to pay extra for more photos?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
No, this person.
It looks like a photo of abackground on their monitor or
like a photo of a photo.
Yeah, it's a photo of a photo.
It looks like from probably 30years ago.
Top overhaul completed 30 hoursago.
Adsb out, installed Re-seekonittail section.
(01:00):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Re-seekonited.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Re-seekonited.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, it's fabric.
Okay, I got it now here.
Yeah, they recovered the tail.
Okay.
Currently inspected.
I don't even know what thatmeans.
I mean it's got a currentannual what does this thing add?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I would assume this is up in Butler, pennsylvania.
Okay, this is that 20 grandpiper colt 4,000 hours, total
time 700 cents major over.
So that's yeah, this is thecheapest, I mean with one photo
and yeah.
(01:44):
I don't know the market onthose.
I mean no, I mean that's in thebookmark.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Okay, we have a little bit of a lag happening, I
think.
Okay, maybe.
Maybe not.
That sounded pretty good.
What were you going to say?
What did you say?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Would you rock a piper colt?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean it's like a piper 152.
It's a little heavier but kindof a lot of the bones are there.
You know I do like the tube andfabric aspect.
I mean there's some maintenancethere, but you know the frame
is strong, they're tight.
You know just like a 150 wouldbe, but you know you got that
(02:26):
2400 hour TBO Lycoming on there.
I would.
I think they're awesome.
I think they're they've.
I've only flown one once but Idid a flight review with a guy
who had one and they're I meanthey're not going to set the
world on fire, but I do thinkthey're neat and probably
(02:48):
undervalued airplane.
We can see that right here, Ibet, if we keep going down the
line here.
Obviously this is the cheapestthing on a controller, of course
, but we're going to see vastlymore expensive Cessna 150s and
152s.
Oh yeah.
And that tells you, this will doall of that.
These you know, these do youknow.
(03:10):
100 knots or so you know, onsix gallons an hour, similar
performance as a 150, 152, butyou just.
There's a little bit of theanxiety about the tube and
fabric, but I think these arevery undervalued airplane in the
market.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It says always, always hangar.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, but did they spell hanger right?
They did A-J-N-G-A-R-E-D.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Wow, they did.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So, man, it's probably an awesome airplane.
I don't know.
It's definitely be worthlooking.
If somebody was like, like whatwe talk about a lot right is
people getting in the, gettingin the market.
Like, hey, I want to learn tofly.
I've heard the cheapest way toflight, get flight training done
is to buy an airplane.
This, I mean this, is somethingthat people need to be looking
(04:04):
at more than just the 150, 152.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I've never flown one, but I feel like, in theory, for
that price, you'd have toconsider it as an option Totally
yeah.
And.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I mean, one thing you know is the fabric age.
You know in fabric condition,because if you have a bad paint
job, every paint shop, even thecrappiest ones, know how to
strip and repaint.
It is very much so like a youknow, dying art with the fabric.
It's hard to find.
There are places, of course,but it's just it is not as well
(04:45):
known and people, that turns alot of people off.
Yeah.
But I guess what I'm saying is,if there's a will, there's a
way, it shouldn't necessarilyturn you off.
Yeah.
What do you think about that?
If you were to go, you rewindthe clock and what you knew when
you got your 150, would youeven consider this?
(05:07):
Then let's say it's still thesame price.
Then, as it is now 20 grand,this same airplane and you are
looking at getting into yoursand whatever you paid for yours.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Well, back in the day I had 25.
So this is five grand less Halfof 25.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
This is five grand less, but fabric.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Over four.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And you don't see the total time 30 hours since a
major overhaul or top overhaulnew cylinders.
All new top means top OHoverhaul, so that's just
cylinders completed 30 hours ago.
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
For 25,.
You can't get mine for 25,though, so it's kind of
irrelevant this thing.
Who knows how cheap this wouldhave been back in the day.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Man, I don't know, I don't think you were getting it.
Even back then I don't thinkyou were getting on that, maybe
15.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, I, uh, I'm in that, I'm in that boat where the
fabric um it.
It worries me a little bit.
If I was going to go that route.
It would have to be somethinglike a J3 Cub or you know
something.
Something else, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Personally yeah you see the you need more reward for
the risk that you might betaking.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
You need to check more boxes, okay.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I would.
I would want to recover a plane, but if I am paying for a total
recover, I'd feel a lot morecomfortable doing that on a J3
than a, than a papercolt.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, just because you know you're putting 10 grand
into the plane.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, and then you think there's the ceiling in the
J3.
What do you?
Mean you'd be more comfortable,I just I just know I'm not
going to lose my but I had tofinancially.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Financially, uh, something like a.
J3 versus the papercolt which Imean you could completely
recover that plane and it's uhnothing yeah the gain is, yeah,
the high end on a cult, thenicest cult you'll ever find,
that's a 28 to $30,000.
(07:24):
Yeah, that's, that's theceiling on those.
Yeah, that's just all there isto it.
So you have to have that inmind.
This needs, this needs to be apretty nice one.
Um yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Needs to be a pretty nice one for 20, but the market
is crazy, so yeah, here are twoPiper J3 Cubs for $22,000 a
piece, one in Florida, one inCalifornia.
It's the auction.
I think that's the legal easeof what stuff was stated, and I
would assume it's going to gofor more for that, more than
(08:02):
that right, I mean, have you hada chance to look at?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Chapter seven bankruptcy trustee sale auction.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, the, yeah the fact they're two different
examples way far away.
Um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Well it's.
I looked into this before westart recording.
It looks like the same owner.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, they're just the ones yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
They look really nice , j3s.
They got to be going more forthat than that, the one in
Jacksonville that'sexceptionally well taken care of
.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah.
I have to look into it, butthere's limited.
You'd have to call on it, Iguess, to kind of get the scoop.
That's what I'd be interestedin doing.
Yeah, this one.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
This one in.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Jacksonville looks really good.
But 22 grand, I mean that issub whatever.
That is well below the median.
Well, obviously, I mean that isvery, very low and I would
expect a $22,000 cub to need anengine overhaul at the lead.
(09:19):
Yeah, I mean I picture you seea $22,000 cub.
I basically picture it missingits engine.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, as a starting point.
This is showing one hour sincenew, so it's got a brand new
engine.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, that's what it says and that's possible.
Kind of weird that it'sbasically a sheriff's sale type
thing.
Yeah, there's a lot of legaldocuments that I can't even
really read, but I'm not tryingto, but the pictures I do see it
does look very maculate.
They're kind of weird angles soI can't read and do it too much
(09:56):
.
But looking at the instrumentpanel looks pretty original.
Oh yeah.
Wood prop on the one that I'mlooking at, which I'm not a fan
of.
I'd yank that wood prop.
They look good but terribleperformance wise.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
What were you going to say?
No, I just what.
I didn't know you wereanti-wood prop.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I'm pretty much anti-wood prop.
Okay.
There's just too much of aperformance hit too, much of a
performance hit using them.
What is the performance hit?
I get the look.
I just don't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I don't think I'm flonking something.
Well, yeah, I mean you're goingto Now.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
They are nice and light, they're smooth, they're
what?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh.
I've never flown something witha wood prop.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
They're smooth and they're For hand propping.
They're nice and light.
You know when you're spinningthem.
Some people think they lookgood, but when I look at them
and I think performance, I can'tsee the beauty that other
people see when they see thewood prop, because all I see is
(11:04):
degradation of performance.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I know they originally came with wood prop
but they're already so limitedin performance they need all the
help they can get in a woodprop.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Is it helping?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Doesn't help matters?
Nope, not at all.
They're light though andthey're smooth.
But and there can be a casemade if you look in the type
certificate data sheet there's avery wide In Cubs I kind of
happen to know a little bit moreabout, there's a very what do I
want to say?
Very vague language as tolengths and such.
(11:45):
For a wooden prop.
You can go up, I want to say,to an 81-inch diameter wood prop
, where when you go to metal ithas to be 70, depending on what
engine's on it.
But 74 is kind of the maxlength metal prop and of course
a longer prop typically givesyou better climb performance and
(12:06):
so some people read into thatand they can the climb
performance they get out of awood prop with that very
generous 81-inch diameter superseeds or X seeds, I should say
the metal prop of 74-inch inperformance, although they lose
it even more in the crewsbecause they've pitched it so
fine for takeoff performance.
(12:27):
But I think the metal you canget basically the best of both
worlds with very littlesacrifice.
But some people do it just forthe look.
Where.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Why are you not able to make a metal prop as long?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I don't know why that is there is and I don't have
any substantiating data rightnow.
But there is something I haveheard is that if you have a prop
strike with a wood prop you areless likely to get a less
likely or maybe you don't haveto tear down the motor because
(13:11):
the prop just breaks.
It literally breaks like astick.
So I think from a propclearance standpoint I can kind
of see that maybe there can bean advantage there.
And at the time the CAR, civilAviation Regulations or CAA, I
(13:32):
guess at the time the governingthey would have been like okay,
we can make this longer, becauseeven though you're more likely
to have a prop strike, theprop's going to break.
If you have a metal prop thislength and you have a prop
strike, you've done internaldamage to the engine.
That's the only thing I canthink of.
That's the only thing I canthink of.
(13:53):
Obviously, the harmonics andthings they can test.
I know there are some instanceswhere the harmonics would be a
factor, like I know on aContinental C90, there was a
harmonic issues on a Piper J3.
Those props are limited to 71inches, where the A65, c85
(14:14):
Contanennals, those all areallowed the 74 inch.
So a lot of people tend tothink the C85 Continental is the
ideal engine for the Piper J3.
It's in the Type CertificateData Sheet.
So basically you can change anoriginal J3 Cub from an A65.
That's how they all came.
All J3s came well.
Almost all J3s came within a 65, or with a 65 horse.
(14:42):
With a log book entry you canswitch it to a C85.
You don't have to do an STC,you don't have to get a 337, a
major alteration or repair.
You don't have to get an FAAfield approval.
It's literally a logbook entrybecause it is already listed on
(15:06):
the Type Certificate Data Sheet.
That's how I understand itanyways.
Okay, so from a paperworkstandpoint you can go buy a 65
horse J3.
There were Franklin powered,lycoming powered, continental
powered.
I'm talking only about theContinental powered ones, cause
all the others are on adifferent type of certificate.
But anyways, all theContinental stuff, you can get
that and you can add instant 20horsepower by bolting on a C85.
(15:31):
The props almost swap as well.
So if you have a prop that ispitched to operate within the
A65 RPM limitations, it alsoworks with the C85 RPM
limitations.
It's I mean, it's a great.
It's a great bolt onperformance upgrade and easy
cause you don't have to have awhole lot of paperwork.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I didn't know that Interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, and that also takes a 74 inch metal prop.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, we had talked to.
We were texting the other dayand about top 10 aircraft.
If we could have like 10realistic, semi-realistic
airplanes in our future hangarsomeday J3 probably-.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And the J3 barely made your top 10, right, is that
true?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It'd probably be in a top 10, I don't know, I'd have
to really nail down that list.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Not a top five, though it's not a top five, or-.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
No, no, no, We'd have to, really I'd have to.
We'd have to do another episodeon that, almost exclusively,
and I'd have to think about it alot more J3 is always like oh
right, yeah, if we knew what wewere gonna do.
I like J3's, but there's a lotof stuff I don't.
Before I I had one, I don'tknow how many.
I don't know if that's 10aircraft before or not.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
So like let's say, let's say one of these J3's
right here was going could behad for 22 grand oh yeah, I'd be
Does that change anything?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, if it was 22,000, for especially that one
that they're showing in Florida,right?
They're both 1946's.
Yeah, yeah, this example here,that would be, yeah, 22 grand,
not in a position.
It wouldn't be in a position todo it by the time this auction
(17:18):
is happening.
But yeah, that'd be, I'dprobably be on my short list.
I've been looking at stuffthat's in that range.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
It's not even airplanes.
That'd be more than that.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
So I could get an airplane for that.
Yeah Well, and then that's thething.
It's kind of like just yourprice, your entry price, to get
into flying.
Yeah.
Like that's the way I'm thinkingabout it, like for me, and if I
wanna go fly, I wanna flysomething as different as
possible from my day job andthat has to be tail wheel, has
(17:56):
to be tube and fabric, all thatstuff.
But then when you startthinking about all those
airplanes that make that thosecool I mean everybody else
thinks they're cool too for themost part and the price is
insane.
So even J3 prices have gonethrough the roof.
They're double this or moretriple this.
I mean you're seeing 60 and$70,000 J3s.
(18:16):
So I mean even at that pricepoint is crazy, but it's still
the cheapest way to have thatgrassroots, fun tail wheel
flying.
There's a lot of issues with J3spracticality-wise, but I mean I
have some things in mind orwhat I would like to do to maybe
help.
But there's only so much youcan do and I don't think there's
(18:38):
much about a J3 that kind ofmeets the modern pilots
expectations.
You've got to have a real goodidea what you're getting into or
you're just gonna be reallyupset with the money you spent,
especially buying at the top ofthe market, like things are
right now, buying a $50,000airplane that goes 65 knots not
(19:00):
a good day.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, On my short list would be like my top 10
would be a cub.
It just wouldn't be a J3, it'dbe like a super cub.
Ideally something like an.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
X Cub 50, 200,000,.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Well, an X Cub yeah, 300,000, 400,000, some thousand
they are now to what are it new?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, so we're a 10th of that.
We're a 10th of that price.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
But I'm talking the tail dragger grass strip type
thing, is.
That's definitely on my top 10.
Just, I don't know if a J3 ison my top 10.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's not for everybody, that's a fact
, that's a fact.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I would lean more towards, like Satabria for to
fill that niche, that desirethat I would have and get out of
a J3.
I feel like Satabria is not toomuch more of a leap these days,
price wise.
I don't know what they're doing, but yeah, I don't either
that's just a hypothesis, but Iwould get more out of a Satabria
(20:03):
.
They don't look as cool as a J3.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I can't get past.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, I can't get past the looks on a lot of the
Aranjas, unfortunately, Like theAranja Champ, for example, does
almost everything better than aJ3.
And they're cheaper.
But I just can't.
When I open that hangar door, Iwas just.
I just know I'm not gonna be ashappy with what I see.
(20:29):
Yeah, and there's a lot of timeyou spend looking at the outside
of that airplane, then you doinside it.
So I think that's very, veryimportant to me to be happy with
what I see when I open thathangar door Sotabria.
A lot of the same lines of thechamp kind of, in my opinion, a
little bit more of a pot bellyto it.
But the performance in the bankfor the buck out of Sotabria,
(20:52):
yes, just like, just like achamp, the bank for the buck, or
a sesson 140 for that matter,there's so much cheaper than a
J3.
I mean and I'm out of the loopa lot now, but I would bet
you're probably, if you'regetting $50,000 for J3s right
now, 40 to 50, you know you'reprobably getting 25 to 30, I
(21:14):
would think, out of one sesson120, sesson 140, maybe, maybe 40
grand for a really nice one andyou get a lot more.
You get heat that works, you getside by side in the case of the
140 and you get generous.
It's tandem in a champ but youget generous elbow room and it's
(21:34):
like just a lot more ergonomicfor 21st century Americans to go
fly and you have heat thatworks.
It does, you know, 85, 90 milesan hour On four gallons an hour
, just like a cub hat.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat make sense about an or a
ca champ Sotabria, but you knowanother order of magnitude,
higher than that still.
(21:55):
You know there's a probablydoing a hundred knots, you know,
or a hundred miles an hourrather, and and on six gallons
an hour.
You know, if you do like the,if you do the, 0 to 35, and then
of course there's 160horsepower versions and all that
stuff.
But I think they're probably avery significant bang for the
buck in the marketplace If you,if you were to be so inclined
(22:16):
for the tail wheel yeah, thenext we have an Alexander
Schistler.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's a glider.
It's in Canada for 22 grams,1978, no idea.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Doesn't even have a motor.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, true, I would Would.
That's what you expect from aJ3, with for that price would be
no motor.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Exactly, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I do want to try glider at some point in my life.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
But the concept is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I'd like to get a rating to do it, because I think
you learn a lot about like Notdoing go arounds, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
They can do go arounds.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I heard that you kind of can, but Dude, these.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Here's the thing.
As a powered air, you knowaircraft pilot, we can't even
wrap our brain around with theglide perform.
How high performance glidersactually are.
Yeah, I mean it's just insane.
I mean they're 50 60.
I think there was one modelthat has like an 80 to 1 glide
ratio.
Yeah, it's just mind-boggling,you know.
But yeah, there's a lot ofscience and a lot of stuff I I
(23:29):
expect you would learn, goingthrough the training thermals
and all the Looking attopography to kind of get an
idea of where that, what thesurface winds are and in all
kinds of stuff I think Would be,would be fascinating yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yep 1941 Porterfield LP 65 for 24,900 dollars.
You know anything about these?
I know nothing, but it lookslike an.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Aranca chief to me.
I have no idea what this thingis.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I've seen them before .
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I've heard of them, but it looks like an Aranca
chief.
Is it side-by-side?
Because an Iran Aranca chief islike a champ, just side-by-side
.
For the most part, this isfront and back Is it really.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Wow Looks like they made it not a chunky looking
plane from the photos here.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
No, it looks a little squaudy to me personally, but I
don't know the specs on any ofit though, so I can't really
weigh in.
All right, so it just in thenotes here.
On the ad it says it's got alike homing 0145, 65 horsepower.
(24:42):
Okay, so it's a horizontallypose, 145 cubic inch.
Now those old like homingsalthough I'm a like homing fan,
the new ones, these ones werevery, very weak.
Most people are incrediblyskeptical whether they put out
65 horsepower or not.
People claim it was more like50.
Huh, so the, if you see, and itmay, that may adequately power
(25:03):
this airplane.
I don't know, I know nothingabout it, but I know in the Cubs
, the like homing powered Cubs.
I know that the Cubs are notthat powerful, but I know that
the Cubs are not that powerful.
I know that the Cubs are notthat powerful and I know nothing
about it, but I know, in theCubs, the like homing powered
Cubs, most those have beenconverted to continental's
because it just was not enoughperformance.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, the engine in the one photo is not on the
plane, so that's always, alwaysfun.
A breath taking, a totalrestoration of a classic World
War.
Ii era primary trainer, who'sever ridin this?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
There, I mean, it does look pretty, looks like a
pretty good restore, I mean.
I guess I mean yeah, I justdon't know enough about them.
I just yeah, I mean, it looksvery chief champ-esque to me, so
I just I can't.
24 grand, though it justdepends on what you're looking
(26:01):
for.
Maybe some people want thatexclusivity and whatever.
I don't want that.
I want to open up a Univerrcatalog and be able to order any
part that breaks on a J3.
That's what I want.
Yeah.
And maybe you can do that withthese, but the fact that there's
only maybe one right now forsale tell me something.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Viper Warrior 2, 1979 .
You feel like you know somestuff about these airplane huh,
I do.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
This is a great year.
I even like the hanger thatthey built.
They have in this picture.
I really like these hangers.
I like that.
It's like a metal truss framelike a Kwanzaa hut type look
right, Half circle, yeah andit's like covered in vinyl or,
you know, like a canvas-y typething.
I always think that's reallycool.
It's got to be pretty cheap tobuild, but basically it's an
(26:52):
open hanger.
This is a 1979 Viper Warrior 2.
So it's 160 horse.
79 is a great year because theywere light.
I want to say in 80 or 81, theytransitioned to putting the
firewall from the backunderneath the back seat to or
in the back anyways, Prettyshort under the back seat, but
regardless.
After that they moved to thefirewall, which totally threw
(27:13):
off its handling characteristics, and I used to fly some of
these different years back toback and it was not a small
difference if you had any amountof time in them.
This is a great year 50, almost5,400 hours total time for a 79
.
So I can't imagine it was atrainer too much.
(27:33):
Looks like it's based at GrassStrip though, so that would be
something to consider.
But for 27.5, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're going to have issues
like that.
I mean getting you knowwhatever importing and you're
going to have to get a DAR orDER, whoever it is that imports
them.
Get one out in your area andthey'll get you through the
steps.
(27:53):
Obviously I have to.
That'll add some complexity andsome cost to getting it, but
this is 27.5 US.
I mean US dollars.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I feel like that's a decent buy right there.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
That's a totally.
Now I don't know anything aboutthe engine.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, what's it say on the?
What do we got on the engine,engine, engine, engine.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Oh, one fourth share available, oh never mind.
Oh, see man that fine print,that'll get you Never mind.
Well unless you're in this areaand you want to own a fourth of
a Piper Warrior.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's too bad, that's too bad.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Same for you to me.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, well, I mean that is a good deal.
But I mean, like, look at thisbasic empty weight people listen
to this 1,518 pounds, that'sthe basic empty weight on this
thing.
So it's got an 800, almost,yeah, 800.
It says 800, 7 pound usefulload.
Now, yeah, I get it.
You had fuel and all this stuffand people.
It's the same thing as everyother 172 that everybody's used
(28:59):
to.
You put full fuel and you'reonly taking two people and maybe
some bags.
That's just the way it is.
But, like for this airplane, Imean it's, they're so balanced,
they're a joy to fly.
You keep the fuel light,depending on your mission.
Of course you got to make thosechoices, but you're right there
with archers and 172s all daylong.
(29:20):
So this thing okay.
So 27.5 for a quarter share.
So this is basically a $100,000airplane.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, 100, 120 somewherearound in there.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
That makes more sense .
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Makes a lot more sense.
Man, that'd still be a gooddeal for people.
But see that engine though,yeah, I mean buying in now, I
would, I'd be talking them down.
That seems a little high forthis airplane if we do the 27.5
times four shares because thisengine has 1362, 1,362 cents
major overhaul.
So yeah, it's probably runninggreat, but I'd want to be 100 to
(30:01):
120 for this airplane.
That sounds a little high.
So I personally would be tryingto knock probably five to six
grand off the off my entry intothis, because I know in no less
than just from an insurancestandpoint they're going to want
to see you overhaul this thingat 2,000 hours, so they're
coming up on a basically 600hours till.
(30:22):
That thing needs a majoroverhaul.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And that's going to be what's that?
With three other people flyingand with four people?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
So you know that the thing'sgoing to fly, even when it's
going to gain hours, even whenyou're not in the seat, probably
.
So that's something to consider.
That's going to be a 27.
Actually, I can look at myspreadsheet because I just
updated my Lycoming prices forthat kind of engine Not
(30:50):
necessarily an 0320.
I don't think I have on here.
That engine is going to cost$27,271.
So divide that by four people,yeah, I mean that's roughly six
(31:13):
grand each.
So I'd be trying to knock thisdown to 21.
I mean, of course you're goingto fly some of those 400.
So you got to think about that,think how much you're going to
fly it, and then deduct that out.
So I mean you're probablytrying to get them down to maybe
20, 24, 25 grand.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Well, it's a partnership that's probably just
an hourly throw in that'smaking a pool for the overall.
That's how a lot ofpartnerships do that right, so
it's just kind of like.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, I guess you're correct.
Yeah, I guess that depends onhow it's set up.
Me personally, I'm thinkingthat they're going to always be
like well.
You know the other threepartners who have been in it for
five, 10 years, they're likewell, what about the new guy?
Why is my share?
I mean, I guess, if theprevious owner, if their money
(32:10):
stays in that pool, I guess theyshould have it when they're
done that.
It should stay in the poolbecause they flew the hour right
.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
And if you're the new guy, why should I be paying for
all the flight hours?
You guys put it on before I waseven an owner of it.
That's the other side of thething.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
100%, 100% dude.
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
I guess it just depends on thestructure of how they're.
If they've done everything onthe open up and they have that,
basically that pot that they'vebeen building, every time
somebody flies it, x amount goesin that pot for the engine and
the annuals and whatever foryour cosmetics and avionics.
(32:49):
However, you have your accountsfigured out, what you put in
what per hour, as long as thatmoney stayed with the plane,
even though the partner left orthat it's broke down correctly.
I'd want to see all that stuffup front, though, so I'm not in
it for a year and I have to gocough up five six grand for an
(33:09):
engine that I didn't put anytime on.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, I'm anti-partnerships.
Now, the 150 I had I learnedhow to fly in was a partnership
with one other person.
Well, it was father, son and itworked out well.
But I'm just like I don't wantto press my luck doing that
again because where the odds youget multiple aircraft
(33:34):
partnerships over a lifetimethat are all great.
You know what I mean.
Yeah.
I think you have a really gooddeal.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, exactly, or at least have your maybe dabble a
little bit and have probationaryperiods or confines on how it
operates.
I would be very leery.
I have pride in ownership andstuff.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Even if it's junk.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I just have pride in ownership.
I can beat on something, butit's not okay if you beat on it,
type thing.
That's just how I am.
I'm like an only child likethat.
I mean there are certain peoplethat I would let fly it.
It just depends.
But by and large I'm not a fanof the partnership I get yelled
(34:21):
at because when I'm done flyingI will leave the gas where it is
.
I tend to like to keep my gaslower, lighter than a lot of
people do.
They want it topped off.
They want to see full gauges orfull tanks when they stick it
or whatever.
I don't like that.
I see all that as waste.
I will keep burning fuel down.
(34:44):
If I take it topped off,something just rolls out because
I have some weird structure ofsome of the stuff that I fly
where I'm supposed to put gas init but it got used by other
people but they topped it off.
I know I'm going to be theperson that fly it the next
three times.
But then all of a suddensomebody comes in and they're
like, well, they didn't put fuelin.
(35:05):
It's like, well, yeah, becausethe next time I go take it I
don't want fuel in it.
You're going to bring it backto me with a bunch of weight
that I can't have because I'mtaking a lot of stuff, but I'm
not going very far, I don't needa lot of fuel.
We have different missions inmind.
Perhaps it's not that I'mtrying to do the wrong thing or
not pay I'll pay, but I need tokeep my mind on what my uses are
(35:28):
going to be.
I've had a couple times beenright up to gross weight this
summer and it's like I don'twant that.
I don't need that.
I don't want that.
I want climb performance, Iwant cruise performance.
I just like all of that.
I like eking out as muchperformance as I can, and the
weight does not allow you to dothat.
When I'm only going to burnfive gallons for the round trip,
(35:50):
I don't need to take 50.
That's legit.
It takes two and a half gallonseach way.
It just doesn't make sense forme to carry around all that
extra weight.
Obviously, legal VFR reservesfor my purposes.
I don't even have a partnershipand it's still aggravating to
navigate that when it comes upwhich isn't that often.
(36:13):
But when it does, even ifsomebody doesn't say anything
directly to me and I know thatthere are just rumblings that,
oh, we didn't put fuel in itit's like, yeah, because I don't
want fuel in it.
I'm the primary person thatflies it and I don't want fuel
in it.
Send me a bill If you have tobe inconvenienced by having
somebody put gas in it for you.
(36:33):
Write it down, send me the bill.
Whatever, all the little stuffwith partnerships.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Araca 1941.
Araca 65 LB.
Is that 65 pounds?
Do you know anything about theAracas?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
I don't.
I'm trying to load it here.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Looks like it's got the weird tube for the vacuum
system mechanical vacuum systemtube.
Yeah, the Venturi tube, I'm notashamed of that, I'll just swap
that thing out.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
All right, is this a half share?
Let's make sure we're nottalking about this for a half
hour before we find out.
Also very clean, classicaircraft 3000 total time,
complete logs, 775 cents majordamage history left-hand wing
(37:38):
repair and landing gear fittingrepair, wing in the gear repair
and things like that onsomething that's from 1941 and
it's presumably got a fairamount of the hours that are on
it since the repair.
That doesn't really scare youwith all.
You know how it is, rob.
All these tail wheel airplanesthat were used for stuff, they
(37:58):
all have history, they all havedamaged history, they've all
been ground looped, they've allbeen taken on a ride off the
runway, just the way it is.
You just got to make sure therepair was done correctly, and
so that might cause you a littlebit of grief on the
pre-purchase inspection to findsomebody who's qualified to like
weigh in whether it was aquality rebuild or overhaul or
(38:21):
whatever repair or not, and thengetting them to and from the
airplane.
So you're gonna have someexpense.
Some expense in that.
But you know, maybe if you liveso this airplane happens to be
it looks like in Tulsa itdoesn't probably make sense for
you to go through to work tofind that out on this airplane
(38:42):
if you live in Maine or Floridaor Florida.
Yeah, yeah, just that's.
That's my take on it, theexpense you are adding, unless
you've always wanted thisairplane and this is the
airplane that your great grandpasoloed in, you know, and then
he went on to be a B-17 pilot.
(39:02):
That's, you know, a story.
If you have nostalgia and youcan bake that in the cake,
that's totally obviously atotally different deal.
But you got to want thisairplane, and this is any, not
just this airplane, this, anysimilar situation.
You have damage, you need tomake sure that that's good.
How do you figure that out?
You got to get some kind ofexpert, somebody you trust, to
go look at it.
Well, now you're talkingairline tickets, meals, expenses
(39:24):
, all that stuff tail route andonto this.
Yeah right, exactly added on tothe cost of this airplane.
Maybe it's worth it to you.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
That's you, you know the, the rocket doesn't get me
excited not at all doesn't meannot at all.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
This is a good-looking example of this
airplane it's a good-lookingplane for sure, yeah, a
good-looking plane.
I shouldn't say example becauseI know nothing about this.
65 lb is what the model is, noidea.
That also has the like homing,65 horse.
So again, compared to thecontinental I've heard of nerf
(39:59):
on a like home, one of theselittle like homings, but I've
heard that they are definitely a65 horse is definitely an
overestimation.
But for 30 grand and you wantthat nostalgic tail wheel, this,
this looks like a good airplane.
But man, to go find out thatit's a, that it's a great one,
is gonna cost you some extra.
(40:19):
So you just got to factor thatin on top of the 29 grand 30
1974 stole P star duster to SA300, whatever that means.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
You ever heard of these?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
yeah, I don't know if that means is a 300 horse or
not.
No, it's definitely not.
I don't know that.
But I star duster, you knowthat's a kind of a bigger name
I'm a little.
Yeah, they're around.
I mean, they're definitelyaround, aerobatic, you know,
kind of like a experimental,pitsy type thing.
(40:52):
Yeah, little biplane, this onehas 160 horse like homing, 960
total time with the, with theexperimentals.
I mean it's just like the kindof similar conversation we just
had about that wing repair andthat gear repair on that aronka,
this you now you're looking atthe whole airplane.
You got to find somebody who'sbuilt these, that knows these,
(41:16):
that knows tube and fabric, andjust start kind of working
backwards and hopefully get someplugins from the like your
network, somebody who knowsthese airplanes because it's
experimental.
On top of it it's tube andfabric.
Well, it's experimental andthat's doing tube and fabric on
top of that.
You know, it's not like it's avans RV 8 where there's now a
(41:39):
million people who are familiarwith those airplanes and they
are.
So the building, the toolingand everything when they they do
the drill out, the rivets andall the, all the prefabbing that
they do at the factory make itnot idiot proof, but they make
it a very easy and repeatabledesign for people to do.
(42:00):
This could be and I don't knowthat much about they could be
plans built this airplane.
I have no idea, and when I sayplans built a lot of
experimental aircraft back inthe day.
You got drawings yeah.
This first one is Piper Colt for 20 grand.
That seem reasonable.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
That I mean that's in mine's not loading, so I don't
even know where we are.
Like I just went low to highand nothing is populating.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Says currently inspected 100nah horsepower
lycoming Two white leather seats.
They put in the descriptionbecause they won't give you a
photo.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Do you have to pay extra for more photos?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
No, this person.
It looks like a photo of abackground on their monitor or
like a photo of a photo.
Yeah, it's a photo of a photo.
It looks like from probably 30years ago.
Top overhaul completed 30 hoursago.
Adsb out, installed Re-seekonittail section.
(01:00):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Re-seekonited.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Re-seekonited.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, it's fabric.
Okay, I got it now here.
Yeah, they recovered the tail.
Okay.
Currently inspected.
I don't even know what thatmeans.
I mean it's got a currentannual what does this thing add?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I would assume this is up in Butler, pennsylvania.
Okay, this is that 20 grandpiper colt 4,000 hours, total
time 700 cents major over.
So that's yeah, this is thecheapest, I mean with one photo
and yeah.
(01:44):
I don't know the market onthose.
I mean no, I mean that's in thebookmark.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Okay, we have a little bit of a lag happening, I
think.
Okay, maybe.
Maybe not.
That sounded pretty good.
What were you going to say?
What did you say?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Would you rock a piper colt?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean it's like a piper 152.
It's a little heavier but kindof a lot of the bones are there.
You know I do like the tube andfabric aspect.
I mean there's some maintenancethere, but you know the frame
is strong, they're tight.
You know just like a 150 wouldbe, but you know you got that
(02:26):
2400 hour TBO Lycoming on there.
I would.
I think they're awesome.
I think they're they've.
I've only flown one once but Idid a flight review with a guy
who had one and they're I meanthey're not going to set the
world on fire, but I do thinkthey're neat and probably
(02:48):
undervalued airplane.
We can see that right here, Ibet, if we keep going down the
line here.
Obviously this is the cheapestthing on a controller, of course
, but we're going to see vastlymore expensive Cessna 150s and
152s.
Oh yeah.
And that tells you, this will doall of that.
These you know, these do youknow.
(03:10):
100 knots or so you know, onsix gallons an hour, similar
performance as a 150, 152, butyou just.
There's a little bit of theanxiety about the tube and
fabric, but I think these arevery undervalued airplane in the
market.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It says always, always hangar.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, but did they spell hanger right?
They did A-J-N-G-A-R-E-D.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Wow, they did.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So, man, it's probably an awesome airplane.
I don't know.
It's definitely be worthlooking.
If somebody was like, like whatwe talk about a lot right is
people getting in the, gettingin the market.
Like, hey, I want to learn tofly.
I've heard the cheapest way toflight, get flight training done
is to buy an airplane.
This, I mean this, is somethingthat people need to be looking
(04:04):
at more than just the 150, 152.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I've never flown one, but I feel like, in theory, for
that price, you'd have toconsider it as an option Totally
yeah.
And.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I mean, one thing you know is the fabric age.
You know in fabric condition,because if you have a bad paint
job, every paint shop, even thecrappiest ones, know how to
strip and repaint.
It is very much so like a youknow, dying art with the fabric.
It's hard to find.
There are places, of course,but it's just it is not as well
(04:45):
known and people, that turns alot of people off.
Yeah.
But I guess what I'm saying is,if there's a will, there's a
way, it shouldn't necessarilyturn you off.
Yeah.
What do you think about that?
If you were to go, you rewindthe clock and what you knew when
you got your 150, would youeven consider this?
(05:07):
Then let's say it's still thesame price.
Then, as it is now 20 grand,this same airplane and you are
looking at getting into yoursand whatever you paid for yours.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Well, back in the day I had 25.
So this is five grand less Halfof 25.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
This is five grand less, but fabric.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Over four.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And you don't see the total time 30 hours since a
major overhaul or top overhaulnew cylinders.
All new top means top OHoverhaul, so that's just
cylinders completed 30 hours ago.
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
For 25,.
You can't get mine for 25,though, so it's kind of
irrelevant this thing.
Who knows how cheap this wouldhave been back in the day.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Man, I don't know, I don't think you were getting it.
Even back then I don't thinkyou were getting on that, maybe
15.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, I, uh, I'm in that, I'm in that boat where the
fabric um it.
It worries me a little bit.
If I was going to go that route.
It would have to be somethinglike a J3 Cub or you know
something.
Something else, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Personally yeah you see the you need more reward for
the risk that you might betaking.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
You need to check more boxes, okay.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I would.
I would want to recover a plane, but if I am paying for a total
recover, I'd feel a lot morecomfortable doing that on a J3
than a, than a papercolt.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, just because you know you're putting 10 grand
into the plane.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, and then you think there's the ceiling in the
J3.
What do you?
Mean you'd be more comfortable,I just I just know I'm not
going to lose my but I had tofinancially.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Financially, uh, something like a.
J3 versus the papercolt which Imean you could completely
recover that plane and it's uhnothing yeah the gain is, yeah,
the high end on a cult, thenicest cult you'll ever find,
that's a 28 to $30,000.
(07:24):
Yeah, that's, that's theceiling on those.
Yeah, that's just all there isto it.
So you have to have that inmind.
This needs, this needs to be apretty nice one.
Um yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Needs to be a pretty nice one for 20, but the market
is crazy, so yeah, here are twoPiper J3 Cubs for $22,000 a
piece, one in Florida, one inCalifornia.
It's the auction.
I think that's the legal easeof what stuff was stated, and I
would assume it's going to gofor more for that, more than
(08:02):
that right, I mean, have you hada chance to look at?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Chapter seven bankruptcy trustee sale auction.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, the, yeah the fact they're two different
examples way far away.
Um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Well it's.
I looked into this before westart recording.
It looks like the same owner.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, they're just the ones yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
They look really nice , j3s.
They got to be going more forthat than that, the one in
Jacksonville that'sexceptionally well taken care of
.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah.
I have to look into it, butthere's limited.
You'd have to call on it, Iguess, to kind of get the scoop.
That's what I'd be interestedin doing.
Yeah, this one.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
This one in.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Jacksonville looks really good.
But 22 grand, I mean that issub whatever.
That is well below the median.
Well, obviously, I mean that isvery, very low and I would
expect a $22,000 cub to need anengine overhaul at the lead.
(09:19):
Yeah, I mean I picture you seea $22,000 cub.
I basically picture it missingits engine.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, as a starting point.
This is showing one hour sincenew, so it's got a brand new
engine.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, that's what it says and that's possible.
Kind of weird that it'sbasically a sheriff's sale type
thing.
Yeah, there's a lot of legaldocuments that I can't even
really read, but I'm not tryingto, but the pictures I do see it
does look very maculate.
They're kind of weird angles soI can't read and do it too much
(09:56):
.
But looking at the instrumentpanel looks pretty original.
Oh yeah.
Wood prop on the one that I'mlooking at, which I'm not a fan
of.
I'd yank that wood prop.
They look good but terribleperformance wise.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
What were you going to say?
No, I just what.
I didn't know you wereanti-wood prop.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I'm pretty much anti-wood prop.
Okay.
There's just too much of aperformance hit too, much of a
performance hit using them.
What is the performance hit?
I get the look.
I just don't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I don't think I'm flonking something.
Well, yeah, I mean you're goingto Now.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
They are nice and light, they're smooth, they're
what?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh.
I've never flown something witha wood prop.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
They're smooth and they're For hand propping.
They're nice and light.
You know when you're spinningthem.
Some people think they lookgood, but when I look at them
and I think performance, I can'tsee the beauty that other
people see when they see thewood prop, because all I see is
(11:04):
degradation of performance.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I know they originally came with wood prop
but they're already so limitedin performance they need all the
help they can get in a woodprop.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Is it helping?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Doesn't help matters?
Nope, not at all.
They're light though andthey're smooth.
But and there can be a casemade if you look in the type
certificate data sheet there's avery wide In Cubs I kind of
happen to know a little bit moreabout, there's a very what do I
want to say?
Very vague language as tolengths and such.
(11:45):
For a wooden prop.
You can go up, I want to say,to an 81-inch diameter wood prop
, where when you go to metal ithas to be 70, depending on what
engine's on it.
But 74 is kind of the maxlength metal prop and of course
a longer prop typically givesyou better climb performance and
(12:06):
so some people read into thatand they can the climb
performance they get out of awood prop with that very
generous 81-inch diameter superseeds or X seeds, I should say
the metal prop of 74-inch inperformance, although they lose
it even more in the crewsbecause they've pitched it so
fine for takeoff performance.
(12:27):
But I think the metal you canget basically the best of both
worlds with very littlesacrifice.
But some people do it just forthe look.
Where.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Why are you not able to make a metal prop as long?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I don't know why that is there is and I don't have
any substantiating data rightnow.
But there is something I haveheard is that if you have a prop
strike with a wood prop you areless likely to get a less
likely or maybe you don't haveto tear down the motor because
(13:11):
the prop just breaks.
It literally breaks like astick.
So I think from a propclearance standpoint I can kind
of see that maybe there can bean advantage there.
And at the time the CAR, civilAviation Regulations or CAA, I
(13:32):
guess at the time the governingthey would have been like okay,
we can make this longer, becauseeven though you're more likely
to have a prop strike, theprop's going to break.
If you have a metal prop thislength and you have a prop
strike, you've done internaldamage to the engine.
That's the only thing I canthink of.
That's the only thing I canthink of.
(13:53):
Obviously, the harmonics andthings they can test.
I know there are some instanceswhere the harmonics would be a
factor, like I know on aContinental C90, there was a
harmonic issues on a Piper J3.
Those props are limited to 71inches, where the A65, c85
(14:14):
Contanennals, those all areallowed the 74 inch.
So a lot of people tend tothink the C85 Continental is the
ideal engine for the Piper J3.
It's in the Type CertificateData Sheet.
So basically you can change anoriginal J3 Cub from an A65.
That's how they all came.
All J3s came well.
Almost all J3s came within a 65, or with a 65 horse.
(14:42):
With a log book entry you canswitch it to a C85.
You don't have to do an STC,you don't have to get a 337, a
major alteration or repair.
You don't have to get an FAAfield approval.
It's literally a logbook entrybecause it is already listed on
(15:06):
the Type Certificate Data Sheet.
That's how I understand itanyways.
Okay, so from a paperworkstandpoint you can go buy a 65
horse J3.
There were Franklin powered,lycoming powered, continental
powered.
I'm talking only about theContinental powered ones, cause
all the others are on adifferent type of certificate.
But anyways, all theContinental stuff, you can get
that and you can add instant 20horsepower by bolting on a C85.
(15:31):
The props almost swap as well.
So if you have a prop that ispitched to operate within the
A65 RPM limitations, it alsoworks with the C85 RPM
limitations.
It's I mean, it's a great.
It's a great bolt onperformance upgrade and easy
cause you don't have to have awhole lot of paperwork.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I didn't know that Interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, and that also takes a 74 inch metal prop.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, we had talked to.
We were texting the other dayand about top 10 aircraft.
If we could have like 10realistic, semi-realistic
airplanes in our future hangarsomeday J3 probably-.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And the J3 barely made your top 10, right, is that
true?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It'd probably be in a top 10, I don't know, I'd have
to really nail down that list.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Not a top five, though it's not a top five, or-.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
No, no, no, We'd have to, really I'd have to.
We'd have to do another episodeon that, almost exclusively,
and I'd have to think about it alot more J3 is always like oh
right, yeah, if we knew what wewere gonna do.
I like J3's, but there's a lotof stuff I don't.
Before I I had one, I don'tknow how many.
I don't know if that's 10aircraft before or not.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
So like let's say, let's say one of these J3's
right here was going could behad for 22 grand oh yeah, I'd be
Does that change anything?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, if it was 22,000, for especially that one
that they're showing in Florida,right?
They're both 1946's.
Yeah, yeah, this example here,that would be, yeah, 22 grand,
not in a position.
It wouldn't be in a position todo it by the time this auction
(17:18):
is happening.
But yeah, that'd be, I'dprobably be on my short list.
I've been looking at stuffthat's in that range.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
It's not even airplanes.
That'd be more than that.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
So I could get an airplane for that.
Yeah Well, and then that's thething.
It's kind of like just yourprice, your entry price, to get
into flying.
Yeah.
Like that's the way I'm thinkingabout it, like for me, and if I
wanna go fly, I wanna flysomething as different as
possible from my day job andthat has to be tail wheel, has
(17:56):
to be tube and fabric, all thatstuff.
But then when you startthinking about all those
airplanes that make that thosecool I mean everybody else
thinks they're cool too for themost part and the price is
insane.
So even J3 prices have gonethrough the roof.
They're double this or moretriple this.
I mean you're seeing 60 and$70,000 J3s.
(18:16):
So I mean even at that pricepoint is crazy, but it's still
the cheapest way to have thatgrassroots, fun tail wheel
flying.
There's a lot of issues with J3spracticality-wise, but I mean I
have some things in mind orwhat I would like to do to maybe
help.
But there's only so much youcan do and I don't think there's
(18:38):
much about a J3 that kind ofmeets the modern pilots
expectations.
You've got to have a real goodidea what you're getting into or
you're just gonna be reallyupset with the money you spent,
especially buying at the top ofthe market, like things are
right now, buying a $50,000airplane that goes 65 knots not
(19:00):
a good day.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, On my short list would be like my top 10
would be a cub.
It just wouldn't be a J3, it'dbe like a super cub.
Ideally something like an.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
X Cub 50, 200,000,.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Well, an X Cub yeah, 300,000, 400,000, some thousand
they are now to what are it new?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, so we're a 10th of that.
We're a 10th of that price.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
But I'm talking the tail dragger grass strip type
thing, is.
That's definitely on my top 10.
Just, I don't know if a J3 ison my top 10.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's not for everybody, that's a fact
, that's a fact.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I would lean more towards, like Satabria for to
fill that niche, that desirethat I would have and get out of
a J3.
I feel like Satabria is not toomuch more of a leap these days,
price wise.
I don't know what they're doing, but yeah, I don't either
that's just a hypothesis, but Iwould get more out of a Satabria
(20:03):
.
They don't look as cool as a J3.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I can't get past.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, I can't get past the looks on a lot of the
Aranjas, unfortunately, Like theAranja Champ, for example, does
almost everything better than aJ3.
And they're cheaper.
But I just can't.
When I open that hangar door, Iwas just.
I just know I'm not gonna be ashappy with what I see.
(20:29):
Yeah, and there's a lot of timeyou spend looking at the outside
of that airplane, then you doinside it.
So I think that's very, veryimportant to me to be happy with
what I see when I open thathangar door Sotabria.
A lot of the same lines of thechamp kind of, in my opinion, a
little bit more of a pot bellyto it.
But the performance in the bankfor the buck out of Sotabria,
(20:52):
yes, just like, just like achamp, the bank for the buck, or
a sesson 140 for that matter,there's so much cheaper than a
J3.
I mean and I'm out of the loopa lot now, but I would bet
you're probably, if you'regetting $50,000 for J3s right
now, 40 to 50, you know you'reprobably getting 25 to 30, I
(21:14):
would think, out of one sesson120, sesson 140, maybe, maybe 40
grand for a really nice one andyou get a lot more.
You get heat that works, you getside by side in the case of the
140 and you get generous.
It's tandem in a champ but youget generous elbow room and it's
(21:34):
like just a lot more ergonomicfor 21st century Americans to go
fly and you have heat thatworks.
It does, you know, 85, 90 milesan hour On four gallons an hour
, just like a cub hat.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat make sense about an or a
ca champ Sotabria, but you knowanother order of magnitude,
higher than that still.
(21:55):
You know there's a probablydoing a hundred knots, you know,
or a hundred miles an hourrather, and and on six gallons
an hour.
You know, if you do like the,if you do the, 0 to 35, and then
of course there's 160horsepower versions and all that
stuff.
But I think they're probably avery significant bang for the
buck in the marketplace If you,if you were to be so inclined
(22:16):
for the tail wheel yeah, thenext we have an Alexander
Schistler.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's a glider.
It's in Canada for 22 grams,1978, no idea.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Doesn't even have a motor.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, true, I would Would.
That's what you expect from aJ3, with for that price would be
no motor.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Exactly, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I do want to try glider at some point in my life.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
But the concept is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I'd like to get a rating to do it, because I think
you learn a lot about like Notdoing go arounds, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
They can do go arounds.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I heard that you kind of can, but Dude, these.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Here's the thing.
As a powered air, you knowaircraft pilot, we can't even
wrap our brain around with theglide perform.
How high performance glidersactually are.
Yeah, I mean it's just insane.
I mean they're 50 60.
I think there was one modelthat has like an 80 to 1 glide
ratio.
Yeah, it's just mind-boggling,you know.
But yeah, there's a lot ofscience and a lot of stuff I I
(23:29):
expect you would learn, goingthrough the training thermals
and all the Looking attopography to kind of get an
idea of where that, what thesurface winds are and in all
kinds of stuff I think Would be,would be fascinating yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yep 1941 Porterfield LP 65 for 24,900 dollars.
You know anything about these?
I know nothing, but it lookslike an.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Aranca chief to me.
I have no idea what this thingis.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I've seen them before .
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I've heard of them, but it looks like an Aranca
chief.
Is it side-by-side?
Because an Iran Aranca chief islike a champ, just side-by-side
.
For the most part, this isfront and back Is it really.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Wow Looks like they made it not a chunky looking
plane from the photos here.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
No, it looks a little squaudy to me personally, but I
don't know the specs on any ofit though, so I can't really
weigh in.
All right, so it just in thenotes here.
On the ad it says it's got alike homing 0145, 65 horsepower.
(24:42):
Okay, so it's a horizontallypose, 145 cubic inch.
Now those old like homingsalthough I'm a like homing fan,
the new ones, these ones werevery, very weak.
Most people are incrediblyskeptical whether they put out
65 horsepower or not.
People claim it was more like50.
Huh, so the, if you see, and itmay, that may adequately power
(25:03):
this airplane.
I don't know, I know nothingabout it, but I know in the Cubs
, the like homing powered Cubs.
I know that the Cubs are notthat powerful, but I know that
the Cubs are not that powerful.
I know that the Cubs are notthat powerful and I know nothing
about it, but I know, in theCubs, the like homing powered
Cubs, most those have beenconverted to continental's
because it just was not enoughperformance.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, the engine in the one photo is not on the
plane, so that's always, alwaysfun.
A breath taking, a totalrestoration of a classic World
War.
Ii era primary trainer, who'sever ridin this?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
There, I mean, it does look pretty, looks like a
pretty good restore, I mean.
I guess I mean yeah, I justdon't know enough about them.
I just yeah, I mean, it looksvery chief champ-esque to me, so
I just I can't.
24 grand, though it justdepends on what you're looking
(26:01):
for.
Maybe some people want thatexclusivity and whatever.
I don't want that.
I want to open up a Univerrcatalog and be able to order any
part that breaks on a J3.
That's what I want.
Yeah.
And maybe you can do that withthese, but the fact that there's
only maybe one right now forsale tell me something.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Viper Warrior 2, 1979 .
You feel like you know somestuff about these airplane huh,
I do.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
This is a great year.
I even like the hanger thatthey built.
They have in this picture.
I really like these hangers.
I like that.
It's like a metal truss framelike a Kwanzaa hut type look
right, Half circle, yeah andit's like covered in vinyl or,
you know, like a canvas-y typething.
I always think that's reallycool.
It's got to be pretty cheap tobuild, but basically it's an
(26:52):
open hanger.
This is a 1979 Viper Warrior 2.
So it's 160 horse.
79 is a great year because theywere light.
I want to say in 80 or 81, theytransitioned to putting the
firewall from the backunderneath the back seat to or
in the back anyways, Prettyshort under the back seat, but
regardless.
After that they moved to thefirewall, which totally threw
(27:13):
off its handling characteristics, and I used to fly some of
these different years back toback and it was not a small
difference if you had any amountof time in them.
This is a great year 50, almost5,400 hours total time for a 79
.
So I can't imagine it was atrainer too much.
(27:33):
Looks like it's based at GrassStrip though, so that would be
something to consider.
But for 27.5, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're going to have issues
like that.
I mean getting you knowwhatever importing and you're
going to have to get a DAR orDER, whoever it is that imports
them.
Get one out in your area andthey'll get you through the
steps.
(27:53):
Obviously I have to.
That'll add some complexity andsome cost to getting it, but
this is 27.5 US.
I mean US dollars.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I feel like that's a decent buy right there.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
That's a totally.
Now I don't know anything aboutthe engine.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, what's it say on the?
What do we got on the engine,engine, engine, engine.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Oh, one fourth share available, oh never mind.
Oh, see man that fine print,that'll get you Never mind.
Well unless you're in this areaand you want to own a fourth of
a Piper Warrior.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's too bad, that's too bad.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Same for you to me.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, well, I mean that is a good deal.
But I mean, like, look at thisbasic empty weight people listen
to this 1,518 pounds, that'sthe basic empty weight on this
thing.
So it's got an 800, almost,yeah, 800.
It says 800, 7 pound usefulload.
Now, yeah, I get it.
You had fuel and all this stuffand people.
It's the same thing as everyother 172 that everybody's used
(28:59):
to.
You put full fuel and you'reonly taking two people and maybe
some bags.
That's just the way it is.
But, like for this airplane, Imean it's, they're so balanced,
they're a joy to fly.
You keep the fuel light,depending on your mission.
Of course you got to make thosechoices, but you're right there
with archers and 172s all daylong.
(29:20):
So this thing okay.
So 27.5 for a quarter share.
So this is basically a $100,000airplane.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, 100, 120 somewherearound in there.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
That makes more sense .
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Makes a lot more sense.
Man, that'd still be a gooddeal for people.
But see that engine though,yeah, I mean buying in now, I
would, I'd be talking them down.
That seems a little high forthis airplane if we do the 27.5
times four shares because thisengine has 1362, 1,362 cents
major overhaul.
So yeah, it's probably runninggreat, but I'd want to be 100 to
(30:01):
120 for this airplane.
That sounds a little high.
So I personally would be tryingto knock probably five to six
grand off the off my entry intothis, because I know in no less
than just from an insurancestandpoint they're going to want
to see you overhaul this thingat 2,000 hours, so they're
coming up on a basically 600hours till.
(30:22):
That thing needs a majoroverhaul.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And that's going to be what's that?
With three other people flyingand with four people?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
So you know that the thing'sgoing to fly, even when it's
going to gain hours, even whenyou're not in the seat, probably
.
So that's something to consider.
That's going to be a 27.
Actually, I can look at myspreadsheet because I just
updated my Lycoming prices forthat kind of engine Not
(30:50):
necessarily an 0320.
I don't think I have on here.
That engine is going to cost$27,271.
So divide that by four people,yeah, I mean that's roughly six
(31:13):
grand each.
So I'd be trying to knock thisdown to 21.
I mean, of course you're goingto fly some of those 400.
So you got to think about that,think how much you're going to
fly it, and then deduct that out.
So I mean you're probablytrying to get them down to maybe
20, 24, 25 grand.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Well, it's a partnership that's probably just
an hourly throw in that'smaking a pool for the overall.
That's how a lot ofpartnerships do that right, so
it's just kind of like.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, I guess you're correct.
Yeah, I guess that depends onhow it's set up.
Me personally, I'm thinkingthat they're going to always be
like well.
You know the other threepartners who have been in it for
five, 10 years, they're likewell, what about the new guy?
Why is my share?
I mean, I guess, if theprevious owner, if their money
(32:10):
stays in that pool, I guess theyshould have it when they're
done that.
It should stay in the poolbecause they flew the hour right
.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
And if you're the new guy, why should I be paying for
all the flight hours?
You guys put it on before I waseven an owner of it.
That's the other side of thething.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
100%, 100% dude.
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
I guess it just depends on thestructure of how they're.
If they've done everything onthe open up and they have that,
basically that pot that they'vebeen building, every time
somebody flies it, x amount goesin that pot for the engine and
the annuals and whatever foryour cosmetics and avionics.
(32:49):
However, you have your accountsfigured out, what you put in
what per hour, as long as thatmoney stayed with the plane,
even though the partner left orthat it's broke down correctly.
I'd want to see all that stuffup front, though, so I'm not in
it for a year and I have to gocough up five six grand for an
(33:09):
engine that I didn't put anytime on.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, I'm anti-partnerships.
Now, the 150 I had I learnedhow to fly in was a partnership
with one other person.
Well, it was father, son and itworked out well.
But I'm just like I don't wantto press my luck doing that
again because where the odds youget multiple aircraft
(33:34):
partnerships over a lifetimethat are all great.
You know what I mean.
Yeah.
I think you have a really gooddeal.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, exactly, or at least have your maybe dabble a
little bit and have probationaryperiods or confines on how it
operates.
I would be very leery.
I have pride in ownership andstuff.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Even if it's junk.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I just have pride in ownership.
I can beat on something, butit's not okay if you beat on it,
type thing.
That's just how I am.
I'm like an only child likethat.
I mean there are certain peoplethat I would let fly it.
It just depends.
But by and large I'm not a fanof the partnership I get yelled
(34:21):
at because when I'm done flyingI will leave the gas where it is
.
I tend to like to keep my gaslower, lighter than a lot of
people do.
They want it topped off.
They want to see full gauges orfull tanks when they stick it
or whatever.
I don't like that.
I see all that as waste.
I will keep burning fuel down.
(34:44):
If I take it topped off,something just rolls out because
I have some weird structure ofsome of the stuff that I fly
where I'm supposed to put gas init but it got used by other
people but they topped it off.
I know I'm going to be theperson that fly it the next
three times.
But then all of a suddensomebody comes in and they're
like, well, they didn't put fuelin.
(35:05):
It's like, well, yeah, becausethe next time I go take it I
don't want fuel in it.
You're going to bring it backto me with a bunch of weight
that I can't have because I'mtaking a lot of stuff, but I'm
not going very far, I don't needa lot of fuel.
We have different missions inmind.
Perhaps it's not that I'mtrying to do the wrong thing or
not pay I'll pay, but I need tokeep my mind on what my uses are
(35:28):
going to be.
I've had a couple times beenright up to gross weight this
summer and it's like I don'twant that.
I don't need that.
I don't want that.
I want climb performance, Iwant cruise performance.
I just like all of that.
I like eking out as muchperformance as I can, and the
weight does not allow you to dothat.
When I'm only going to burnfive gallons for the round trip,
(35:50):
I don't need to take 50.
That's legit.
It takes two and a half gallonseach way.
It just doesn't make sense forme to carry around all that
extra weight.
Obviously, legal VFR reservesfor my purposes.
I don't even have a partnershipand it's still aggravating to
navigate that when it comes upwhich isn't that often.
(36:13):
But when it does, even ifsomebody doesn't say anything
directly to me and I know thatthere are just rumblings that,
oh, we didn't put fuel in itit's like, yeah, because I don't
want fuel in it.
I'm the primary person thatflies it and I don't want fuel
in it.
Send me a bill If you have tobe inconvenienced by having
somebody put gas in it for you.
(36:33):
Write it down, send me the bill.
Whatever, all the little stuffwith partnerships.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Araca 1941.
Araca 65 LB.
Is that 65 pounds?
Do you know anything about theAracas?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
I don't.
I'm trying to load it here.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Looks like it's got the weird tube for the vacuum
system mechanical vacuum systemtube.
Yeah, the Venturi tube, I'm notashamed of that, I'll just swap
that thing out.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
All right, is this a half share?
Let's make sure we're nottalking about this for a half
hour before we find out.
Also very clean, classicaircraft 3000 total time,
complete logs, 775 cents majordamage history left-hand wing
(37:38):
repair and landing gear fittingrepair, wing in the gear repair
and things like that onsomething that's from 1941 and
it's presumably got a fairamount of the hours that are on
it since the repair.
That doesn't really scare youwith all.
You know how it is, rob.
All these tail wheel airplanesthat were used for stuff, they
(37:58):
all have history, they all havedamaged history, they've all
been ground looped, they've allbeen taken on a ride off the
runway, just the way it is.
You just got to make sure therepair was done correctly, and
so that might cause you a littlebit of grief on the
pre-purchase inspection to findsomebody who's qualified to like
weigh in whether it was aquality rebuild or overhaul or
(38:21):
whatever repair or not, and thengetting them to and from the
airplane.
So you're gonna have someexpense.
Some expense in that.
But you know, maybe if you liveso this airplane happens to be
it looks like in Tulsa itdoesn't probably make sense for
you to go through to work tofind that out on this airplane
(38:42):
if you live in Maine or Floridaor Florida.
Yeah, yeah, just that's.
That's my take on it, theexpense you are adding, unless
you've always wanted thisairplane and this is the
airplane that your great grandpasoloed in, you know, and then
he went on to be a B-17 pilot.
(39:02):
That's, you know, a story.
If you have nostalgia and youcan bake that in the cake,
that's totally obviously atotally different deal.
But you got to want thisairplane, and this is any, not
just this airplane, this, anysimilar situation.
You have damage, you need tomake sure that that's good.
How do you figure that out?
You got to get some kind ofexpert, somebody you trust, to
go look at it.
Well, now you're talkingairline tickets, meals, expenses
(39:24):
, all that stuff tail route andonto this.
Yeah right, exactly added on tothe cost of this airplane.
Maybe it's worth it to you.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
That's you, you know the, the rocket doesn't get me
excited not at all doesn't meannot at all.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
This is a good-looking example of this
airplane it's a good-lookingplane for sure, yeah, a
good-looking plane.
I shouldn't say example becauseI know nothing about this.
65 lb is what the model is, noidea.
That also has the like homing,65 horse.
So again, compared to thecontinental I've heard of nerf
(39:59):
on a like home, one of theselittle like homings, but I've
heard that they are definitely a65 horse is definitely an
overestimation.
But for 30 grand and you wantthat nostalgic tail wheel, this,
this looks like a good airplane.
But man, to go find out thatit's a, that it's a great one,
is gonna cost you some extra.
(40:19):
So you just got to factor thatin on top of the 29 grand 30
1974 stole P star duster to SA300, whatever that means.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
You ever heard of these?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
yeah, I don't know if that means is a 300 horse or
not.
No, it's definitely not.
I don't know that.
But I star duster, you knowthat's a kind of a bigger name
I'm a little.
Yeah, they're around.
I mean, they're definitelyaround, aerobatic, you know,
kind of like a experimental,pitsy type thing.
(40:52):
Yeah, little biplane, this onehas 160 horse like homing, 960
total time with the, with theexperimentals.
I mean it's just like the kindof similar conversation we just
had about that wing repair andthat gear repair on that aronka,
this you now you're looking atthe whole airplane.
You got to find somebody who'sbuilt these, that knows these,
(41:16):
that knows tube and fabric, andjust start kind of working
backwards and hopefully get someplugins from the like your
network, somebody who knowsthese airplanes because it's
experimental.
On top of it it's tube andfabric.
Well, it's experimental andthat's doing tube and fabric on
top of that.
You know, it's not like it's avans RV 8 where there's now a
(41:39):
million people who are familiarwith those airplanes and they
are.
So the building, the toolingand everything when they they do
the drill out, the rivets andall the, all the prefabbing that
they do at the factory make itnot idiot proof, but they make
it a very easy and repeatabledesign for people to do.
(42:00):
This could be and I don't knowthat much about they could be
plans built this airplane.
I have no idea, and when I sayplans built a lot of
experimental aircraft back inthe day.
You got drawings yeah.
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