August 24, 2023 • 45 mins
Join us for an electrifying conversation with Lake Erie Island's flight legend, Jeff Danevich, a former student of Lee, as we venture through the exhilarating yet nerve-racking universe of flight instruction and solo aviation. This episode is a treasure trove of insights, perspectives, and first-hand anecdotes, making it a must-listen for aspiring pilots, experienced instructors, or just anyone who admires the boundless skies. Our dialogue navigates the enigmatic journey from ground zero to a successful first solo flight, addressing the instructor's apprehensions, illuminating safety protocols, and setting the stage for an unforgettable flight experience.
As part of the journey, we dive into the nitty-gritty of flight lessons, pilot prerequisites, and the financial investment involved in gaining your wings. We throw light on the medical compliance necessary for professional pilots while reflecting on the crucial first 10 hours of training. Not just that, we also explore the myriad of possible repercussions if the medical requirements are not fully understood and adhered to by the students.
Our exploration doesn't stop there! We take our conversation even further by discussing flight instruction strategies, the criticality of lesson planning, and the periodic re-up checks that ensure a continuous learning journey. We touch upon the art of instilling confidence in students, the intricacies of teaching aviation skills, and delve into the dynamic process of student evaluation. Tune in as we bring to life the mesmerizing world of aviation instruction, painting the clear sky with tales of flight and dreams of soaring high!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome this week's episode of the Far Aim Podcast.
Today we have guest Lake ErieIsland's flight legend Jeff
Denovich, lee's former student,lee's protege.
Anything Jeff says, correct orincorrect, you can just blame
Lee, for he has a general ruleof thumb.
(00:27):
We have for the first time mysister on the show.
She is filling in for Scottbecause Scott is not here.
She said Scott just drinks andasks Lee frustrating questions.
I can try that.
That was qualifications to geton the show.
We are going to cover thisepisode taking a student from
(00:50):
just.
We assume they've walked in thedoor and they want to take the
lessons.
Maybe we won't need to go intothe sales process so much.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
They're committed.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, they're committed.
You, as a CFI, have now got toget this person through a rating
.
We're just going to focus on tothe first solo part for this
episode.
We're doing this because I'mconsidering taking some students
down in South Florida.
If you have availability of anairplane and you're in South
(01:20):
Florida, shoot me an email.
Consider taking on a handful ofstudents on the side this
winter.
Yeah, that's kind of a selfishtopic for me.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Self-serving.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Self-serving topic for me, because that the zero
time to first solo is whatfreaks me out the most about
actually using my flightinstructor certificate.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
That's where all the meet is.
You kind of think about it likeonce you get them to the solo,
you've taught them 90%.
It's polishing rough edges andgetting the rest of their
aeronautical experiencerequirements done.
That's the way I always triedto treat it.
I think the majority of yourinstructing other than checking
(02:11):
boxes is done at that solo.
I think you're spot on withthinking that's kind of the part
that freaks a lot of people out.
And then you get them to thatfirst solo and it's like well, I
hope this goes well.
Did I teach them what they needto know to get safely around
this pattern or go solo thatairport?
That's 25 miles away orwhatever.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, as an instructor, I think I was more
nervous when my students aredoing their first solo than I
was when I did my first solo.
I could see that as you get inthe plane and it's like here's
what I remember really tellingme, it's like, all right, it's
going to be a little bitdifferent because you're not
going to have this weight hereor something, I'm like, yeah, I
mean, this weight is going to bedifferent.
And once you get up in there,you're like I don't have lee to
(02:52):
take over the controls if I'mgoing to land short or if I'm
too steep, or so that's allgoing through your mind.
But as nervous as I was doingmy solo, I think I'm more as an
instructor watch him do theirfirst take off and then come
down for the landing, becauseyou're just like, okay, is there
something I forgot?
(03:13):
You know you got everything,because there's a list that you
go through for the pre solo thatyou're like making sure that
they're ready.
You've had them do a bunch oflandings.
You've had another instructorgo with them just to make sure
you didn't miss anything, tomake sure that they feel they're
ready to.
So there's like a safety valvethere with the other instructor,
but you're still like I said,you're watching them come in and
(03:34):
then when they touch down,you're like, okay, fine, so then
after that, then you get alittle bit more comfortable, but
I think I was.
I'm more nervous as aninstructor when my students
doing their first landing as asolo pilot.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Do you think some of that could be attributed to like
you didn't know what you didn'tknow when you were doing your
first solo?
Or do you feel like the process?
There wasn't enough safeguardsthere?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
No, no, I think when I when you taught me, and first
of all, it can never happen tome.
I was taught by Lee, that'slike my model there, so we know
that's not going to happen.
But no, no, you did everything.
Well, everything was, was goodwith the stuff you did.
It was just me personally wasjust like there's no one else
for me.
That's next to me.
You know there is.
You know like before there wasalways that thing.
(04:17):
You're right there, sosomething is wrong.
I know, because you got the two, the two yolks there and you've
got the rudder pedals.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I know you can you know, take care of it.
But you're saying, though,you're more nervous now as an
instructor.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, because I'm just I don't you know, like it's
okay and like when they go dotheir their check ride with the
examiner.
You know you don't know whatthey're going to forget.
You know, like you, you'vetaught them everything, but it's
like are they going to forgetit?
And then when they're doingthat solo, you're like, are they
good?
What if they freeze up?
You know what if somethinghappens?
I mean, hopefully you've caughtthat somewhere in the process
(04:52):
and you know, like, like you'reprobably not going to be the
person solo.
You know, right, and that wouldbe hard to tell someone after
they put that money.
But hopefully you could seethat early on the situation and
can say, okay, you know we'regoing to have to really work
hard at this.
Here's what's going wrong.
You know, let's, let's figureout what we can get you to that
solo.
But, like I said, once you'reup there, you just don't.
(05:13):
What if they just all of asudden just have a lapse of?
They just forget?
you know, I don't know.
I mean it hasn't happened.
But you know, you just get, Iget nervous, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I don't worry about some sort of emergency or some
some sort of thing that's likeway out of the norm, just for
some reason comes up in thoseearly stages.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Like a what Like?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
an engine failure, bird strike, bird strike.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Stuff you know, someone coming in and like a cub
that's not talking on the radioand they don't know what to do.
So I remember you sent me toMansfield and I was talking to a
tower, tower, tower, towerairport and they said you're
clear to land.
And I was coming in and I sawthere was a plane and they
(05:57):
actually let's I think I'mtrying to give someone took off
Some reason.
They let someone go at the sametime and all I did was like I
can't land, I didn't sayanything, I just circled on
final.
They never said anything to me,which was kind of weird too.
But I remember that, like myfirst time going to Mansfield by
myself and I I don't even I'meven told leave.
(06:18):
This is what happened.
But now he knows.
But I remember I was coming inand I see this plane.
I was just like I can't land.
I was always told you know,there's someone on the runway,
don't you know, don't land.
So you know that's whathappened.
That's my story.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And there's no, I mean, there's nothing wrong with
that.
When you get that clearance toland, you can kind of do
whatever you want to make a safelanding.
Sure, you know, like you'restraight in, you're cleared to
land straight in or somethinglike that, so you do have that
option.
But also there's such a widerange of capabilities of
different airplanes coming toland and at Tower Fields they
(06:54):
don't know how short you mightcut it.
Did you do like kind of thepower off 180 type approach that
I taught you?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, I was probably doing that.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Probably, and so that means you were in tight and
they're not used to that.
They're thinking you're goingto kind of do a three mile final
and it's like, no, you're notgoing to do that.
So it throws everything off andthere's such a wide range.
I don't think you're off baseby treating it like you would a
non-towered field.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, but like that's what I'm saying, is there's
something to come up so that forme, that was mine on that solo
cross country was there was aplane.
I wasn't used to seeingsomething like that at a towered
airport and I was like, okay,I'm just going to do like a
little circle here just to givethem some spacing, you know.
But yeah, like you said, enginefailure, bird strike.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, the circle thing or the plane being on the
runway after you're cleared,like nowadays we just key the
mic, tell the controller.
Hey, I see someone on therunway, what's going on here?
And it's kind of like a thing.
But like as a student, it'slike do I say something?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Like you know what I mean, especially if you're not
learning out of a control fieldlike that, and the only thing
you do say at the end is I'm astudent pilot, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh yeah, that's a story Scott Fulmer you have to,
absolutely.
Scott still says that when he'son the radio.
Student pilot.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I mean, there's definitely the unforeseen
circumstances.
You hope that you've spentenough time with them and kind
of caught onto theiridiosyncrasies, things like that
.
But you've kind of done like apsyche vow on them really.
I mean, you're wearing a lot ofhats when you're doing this and
you're letting somebody go,that is true.
So you're seeing, like, didthey have any?
Like maybe underlined, do Ihave any hints of any?
(08:33):
Like unsteadyness, likepsychologically?
You gotta diagnose all thatkind of before you're letting
them go.
And you just start withmaneuvers for like the first
couple hours, right, it'sprimarily that's what I, that's
typically what I do, but I tryto get to take off some landings
as quickly as possible.
You know, people think you knowSame here.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
take off some landings.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Like somebody like they say oh, I sold it in 10
hours.
Like okay, yeah, but ifanything came up in those 10
hours, what were you gonna do?
Those are the people that Iworry about.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I'm in that boat, scott, and I Don sold us real
quick.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, you guys were awesome pilots, though, and I'm
not, so I took me whatever, howmany hours, I know a long time
ago.
We actually did that.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
If you look at an old episode, we actually broke it
down.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And I don't know how many it was, but I was like
double or triple what you guyshad, and in not saying that, I
would have been equipped tohandle something popping up, but
at 10 hours there's like no way.
Yeah, there's just no way.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It wasn't our instructor's private 4,000 foot,
150 foot wide grass strip thathe knows.
No one else is in the patternof because it's his strip the
engine failure.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, those are the big ones.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
But yeah, I mean some things, some of the tri-motor
coming in at like 30 knots, youknow super slow.
I mean you can see it forever,but it's really.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I take that back.
I learned how to land there,but I actually sold at Port
Clinton.
I thought I thought RunwayNiner yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I thought I remember you telling me that.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Now the time and place and those times were
different at Port Clinton.
It was a lot slower at PortClinton then than it is now.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, it was March 16th, it was winter time,
relatively slow.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, and what 2007?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
This would have been 2005.
2005, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Different times, I mean that place is a nut house
compared to that, but Look atthere we got someone that busted
Denver Brava on his first crosscountry solo.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's the spirit.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
There you go.
I don't feel so bad.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I mean it happens.
I mean those are just thingslike.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
I'd be curious the circumstances.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, give us elaboration details please.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I did bust Newark's Bravo when I first time in New
York City.
I was leaving there, I waslanding in Linden, or take off
from Linden.
There's like a really smallceiling there and I just I think
it was like 800 feet orsomething like that you had to
cross.
You had to cross some buildings.
From whatever I was taking off,I was like I can get over these
buildings.
I was even paying attention at800 feet.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So I made a NASA report.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And here I am.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
NASA report how early .
Speaker 2 (11:14):
at least you did one how?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
early do you teach the NASA report?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I never taught the NASA report.
If they found out about that,it wasn't for me.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that I did not
even cause.
I didn't understand, like Imean, I guess I got it, but I
didn't know how to.
Where would you find that tofill it out?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Like I didn't know any of that I have to say with
Lee's style was more I'm goingto show you how to fly, I'm
going to teach you how to fly.
You know what I'm saying?
And then it was.
I'm not my no means cutting downon you, cause like I said you
taught me an awesome skill level, like, hey, I'm going to teach
you how to fly.
The rest of the stuff you'regoing to have to find out pretty
(11:52):
much on your own, you know.
And it was basically saying hey, I could sit here and help you
read all this stuff, but you'regoing to pay me for it, or I'm
going to send you how you canread this, but in the meantime
we're going to spend all thistime teaching you the skills to
fly the plane.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Do it correctly, you know so yeah, so Halle, let's
say Halle booked you forSaturday, sunday, like an hour.
Saturday hour Sunday, first twolessons.
What are you covering, like?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
so the first one, and this is I would start it like
Lee said, it was kind ofstarting a review process.
I remember Lee doing this.
Pay attention now, what do youwant to do?
Do you want are you just here?
Do you just want to fly theairplane?
Do you want to just solo, or doyou want to become a private
pilot, commercial pilot, which Itake on to my students?
The thing that I've added sincethen is have you taken any ADHD
(12:45):
medication prior?
Because I've or coke no no.
The reason for that?
The reason for that is beforeyou can solo, you have to get
your medical.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And I've seen students that I picked up from
other instructors that I getthem all the way up there.
You know they've had, like,let's say, 10 hours and they
want to get there, they want tosolo.
So I'm like, okay, let's gothrough your medical process,
let's get you your medical.
Oh, I take an Adderall orsomething like that and they're
like disqualified, so they can'tget it.
(13:18):
So now they put all this timeto get to the solo and they
weren't able to.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
So that's like they have to go through a bunch of
stuff, but that's God.
I know one person right now islike two years into it that they
haven't been able to get theirmedical, so they haven't been
able to solo.
And this is someone I picked upfrom someone else.
So that's one of the firstquestions is you know, after I
ask you, what do you want to do?
Do you just want to learn howto fly?
Do you just want to do this?
Because I just want to put onmy bucket list that, hey, I was
(13:46):
able to solo.
So now you're just going towork strictly on the whole
soloing stuff.
But if they're saying, hey, Iwant to make this a career, then
you're like, okay, Well, eventhe same thing you're going to
ask about, you know, did theytake any medication that could
possibly just qualify for thatstuff?
So then the next thing we getonto, then I'm going to go okay,
here's the airplane, and we'regoing to go over and we're going
to do some.
I'm just going to show you thisstuff.
(14:07):
Here's the ailerons.
This is what the yolk does.
If you turn, turn it to theright, what's going to happen?
Turn it to the left, you know.
So you turn to the right, youknow the ailerons are going to
come up.
Then, left, the other side isgoing to go down.
That's going to help us turn inthe air.
What the rudders do on theground, what they do in the air
go everything and just we'll goover all the instruments as
we're singing the plane, becausethen once the engine started,
(14:30):
that's when everything.
So then the first thing we'regoing to do is we're going to do
a takeoff and landing.
We're probably going to do apower 180 off, because I'm going
to show you like, listen, youknow, and this is one of the
things that Lee taught me wasalways, we're going to do the
power 180 off landing.
And it may sound weird, but Iremember when I was partnered in
a Cherokee 180, a couple of mypartners in the plane.
(14:52):
I flew with them and theywanted to do their, their, their
biennial, and I was like okay.
I was like we're going to do apower 180 off Biennial, why not?
I didn't agree.
Why I wasn't there when theychanged the wording.
Why should I?
Why should I have to do?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
it.
That's how.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think about it Exactly you started your flight
and all your training after theyalready changed it.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
No, I didn't.
Yes, you did.
No, I didn't.
I don't think so.
Well, how did I get, how did Iget, biennial?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Because that's what everybody says, because you're
still like stuck on that, thereyou go.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Why change it?
Speaker 3 (15:24):
We don't like it all the closer.
First time on Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Anyway, when did, when did you start flight
training?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Well, what were you doing?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Continue, okay, so anyway.
So I was taught the 180.
So I would do this with themwhile they're buying, and you
know what?
I'm not changing it for you andthey couldn't do it, they did
not know how to do it.
But the reason for teaching 180is like, hey, if you lose your,
you lose power to your engine.
This plane's gonna glide.
And now it's gonna teach youthat.
(15:55):
I kind of you kind of get usedto it, like how far can I
actually go on this planegliding?
So we're gonna do that and,like I said, her first lesson,
the first two lessons, are gonnabe takeoffs and landings, and
then from there maybe we'll do afew maneuvers.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
How you do.
You wanna learn for fun or tobecome a professional pilot?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
That would be some of the first questions he'd be
asking, though.
Oh yeah, for fun, for fun, andlike by fun, oh, you can ask.
Actually, I wanna know how longdo you have to be off
medication?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
to Well, like I said, it's a few years.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It's a few years, like I said, cause I think what
they have to do is and I'm not ahundred percent sure on this
one, but I think you have to beout that medication, and then
you have to.
You know it's, you're on thatmedication for a reason, but you
have to be off it so you canshow like you can get your
license.
You know, once you get yourlicense, once you get your
license, you gotta still stayoff of it.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, I know it.
That's so convoluted with themedical stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I was advised by attorneys just to never talk
about medical stuff on the show.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Really.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh yeah, cause it's.
It's impossible not to stepyour step.
Step in a turn.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I guess yeah, but still, I mean.
So the vice is just yeah, thatwould be the first thing.
We added.
One of the things I said, likedo you want to do for fun?
And then I would ask him aboutthe whole medication thing,
cause you don't want to put allthat money into it to get to
that solo.
You know, like we said, even ifit's 10 hours, what are we
talking there?
About $200 an hour, so you'retalking two grand.
(17:23):
Just to get to the point, let'ssay you made it to that 10
hours and it's like okay, let'sget your solo.
Oh, we got to fill out yourmedical.
Take a medication.
Oh yeah, take this.
Oh, you're not going to begetting that medical.
So now they just wasted twogrand, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Absolutely so.
Flying for fun versus flyinglike wanting to do a living,
what's the difference Like forthe first five hours, with how
you're handling that?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I need James P Gray MD.
Can you email me?
I got I got some medicalquestions.
I need to talk to you aboutsomebody I know.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Oh yeah, dr Gray, he's on a pilot ground.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, great, you just got it Email me.
I wish I knew what my email was.
Do you know what my email is,rob?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
F-A-R-A-M at leagueriffingcom.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, email me.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
He's on pilot ground too, just message him.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Okay, yeah, maybe I'll do that then, but I don't
know what his username is onpilot ground.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Wish I had Dr Gray on .
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Probably.
Yeah, it'd probably be good tohave an AME on.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
But we might have to line this up.
I'm not trying to derail thesubject, but I'm just like I'm
trying to keep up with what'sgoing on here.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yes, yes, exactly.
I know where to find those.
I know where to find those.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Performance enhancements.
Performance enhancements yes,what Lee?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
what Lee's being accused of possibly being Is it
okay to double dose, and whichones are safe?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe it's three to six months,but all I know is the one guy
who is two years so far and hestill hasn't.
Like I said, I don't know, whoknows, maybe he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Maybe he hasn't AMEs and just how all that paperwork
is written and their individualcase and other aspects of their
medical history.
It's, I mean, it's hard, so Imean.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Well, that Matt's waiting for his check, right?
So good luck with that.
Yeah, good luck with that, Matt.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That was kind of way up.
I'm glad we could get you backinto it.
I hope we've helped in some wayand obviously you guys can help
steer the conversation as weget into this.
But what else have we missed, Iguess?
But so in the five you weretalking about, in the five hours
, Like the first five hours.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You're asking like, okay, are you trying to become a
professional?
Is, how are you trying tobecome a professional?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
pilot.
Hopefully that's done in thefirst conversation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
But I'm asking, like those first five hours now,
based off of what that answer is, is there any differences in
like how you're teaching andstuff in those first five hours?
Let's call it our first 10hours?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Versus, like how he wants to learn how to fly for
fun in our hypotheticalsituation here.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I think, so what do you think?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Versus somebody who just wants like their gung-ho on
three pilot.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
The first, probably 10 hours is probably the most
critical differences in how Iwould handle that.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Is it gung-ho or gung-ho?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Gung-ho.
I'm pretty sure it's gung-ho,okay, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I didn't mean to derail it too much there.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I think, everyone's helped himsince, except Scott.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Okay, we'll let him know.
Well, you're filling in forScott, so you don't have to
really help anybody.
You just kind of.
I'm much more motivating,though, having some drinks.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I mean you haven't said anything to lead to
irritate him yet, so you're kindof failing right now.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I'll try, just think it's not, it won't be.
It shouldn't be hard, itshouldn't be hard.
Well, jeff already did with theflight or the Bineal flight
review.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Still Bineal yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
So we have a Bineal flying pre-cosh.
We got to just to bring thatlingo back.
I'm going to make sure that'son the that's big on the T-shirt
.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
The next T-shirt okay .
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Is it called a flight review?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It's a flight review.
Cause they went from the everytwo years to every 24 calendar
months.
That doesn't work for me, dude.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Which is Bineal.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
No, it's not, they're different ones.
By the end of the month, onceto the day.
Every two years to the day.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Two years is how many months?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
two calendar years is 24 calendar months.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So it's by annual.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
No, it's not.
It's not, but it was different.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Never agree, todd, so let's change it.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Look the difference between the first five to ten
hours and how you're instructingsome of them.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I think those are the critical differences.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay, so what are the differences?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Do you agree or no?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, I think it's critical.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I just think like those are the first ones, though
, the first five to ten hours.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's where I think the critical differences are how
I handle it versus how,depending on whether they're
going to be pleasure or I wantto go be an airline pilot.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
No, like it.
Yeah, there's no wrong answer.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
No, I'm just trying to wrap my head what I'm trying
to think.
Do you want me to talk?
Yes, I'd like you to talk,please.
I just want to be the student.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
If somebody comes in and they're like I've always
wanted to fly, I now, like mykids are out of college, I now
have that money available and Ican go pursue my dream.
But I don't want to be acommercial pilot.
This is just fun for me.
We're going to go into whateverthey think is fun.
That's what we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I don't want.
If that's maneuvers they wantto go do.
I'm going to turn it into kindof turns around a point which is
a is that a performance?
What is that?
What is that called?
Not a performance maneuver,that's a ground reference
maneuver.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Ground reference.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Not performance.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
I concur.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
But there's, thank you, roger.
Roger, I'm going to let them dothat around their house or
around their boat at the marina,or whatever they're going to do
.
I'm going to let them, I'mgoing to try and give them some
something to do while they'restill enjoying.
They're looking out the windowand I'm just going to be like,
oh, watch the bank angle, watchthe altitude, and just kind of
throw that in there and let themjust slowly build those skills.
(23:08):
I just want them to keepenjoying and keep coming back.
That's how I'm paid, that's howthey enjoy.
Everybody wins.
So you come in and you say, well, I'm 18 years old and I want to
be an airline pilot.
It's like, okay, we're going tostart with ground reference
maneuvers, turns, s turns acrossthe road, but I don't care
(23:29):
where your house is, we're goingto go over the straightest,
longest road we can and we'regoing to knock out S turns
across the road and we're goingto do boring stuff.
But we, I want to get your scangoing and making sure it's
instrumenty while stickingruddery as much as possible.
But it's boring stuff.
So some people like Jeff and I,remember a day specifically
(23:51):
we're out doing, we're over atPortland, which has a 5,600 foot
runway and our home airport has3,500 foot runway.
We're over there doing likejust take Austin land.
He's just banging them out.
And I gave you an enginefailure about midfield.
I don't know if you remember ornot.
You probably don't remember.
I don't remember it's well yeah,yeah, maybe you will after,
(24:13):
after I'm done with the story.
But we're like midfield, so youhave like 2,500 feet more to
where even at the end of therunway, and you're like not
going to make the end of therunway and touch on a threshold
of all.
And so I was just like, dude,just put it on the pavement and
dude, you cranking bank, and weturn final at like 30 feet and
(24:34):
we landed like that's what Iwant to learn.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You want to do stick and rudder stuff and like
there's no way to really feelsomebody out for what they want
to get out of it accurately.
Like they may want to getsomething out they don't know
that they want to get out of itwhen they come into the door.
So you were a stick and rudderguy Like you wanted to like main
, handle an airplane and flying40 knots winds.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
You wanted to do all that, and that's why you're
doing that.
That's why I like flying theislands and not Exactly yeah,
that's why I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So you wanted that from day one and there's no way
that I could have asked thatsitting in the office.
You know when you came in.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I may not have known that when he started and there's
no way for me to know that ifhe doesn't even know that I
don't know where it was in ourlesson, but I do remember one
time you did, you banked us overat Sundaski and at the time it
had had been low time for mebecause I was like, oh my God,
we're not going to, we're goingto die here.
You know I'm thinking at thetime.
But now, look at now that youknow I've flown for I think I
(25:33):
got like 2600 hours now it'slike, okay, those are not really
that steep of bank.
But at that time that's the onething with students too, you're
not going to, you want to startthem out slowly.
You know, you don't want to getinto like the steep.
I wouldn't personally get intosteep turns too early just
because you don't want them to.
Night time is another thing is.
I remember when me and you didour first night time, I was like
(25:54):
I never want to fly at night.
I'm moving to Alaska where it'snot a requirement, you know.
So I'm thinking but now, I'dlove flying at night because I
can see everything.
But at the time I was like what, if something happens, where am
I going to land?
You know so.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I still hate that stuff in a single engineer plane
.
I mean, I still hate that, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So there's just things you know you just want to
build that.
You're trying to build likebuilding blocks, build that
confidence up, you know, to getthem to that solo, you know.
And then what hurdles do youhave to get over?
What are?
You know the death grip youever get a person with that.
You know they're like, yeah,they had.
They're like tight on that,yeah, and they won't turn.
He's like, okay, look just like.
And you show them they're like,look, I'm just using like two
(26:34):
fingers here to turn this plane.
You don't need that death gripthere.
You know so.
So you trust as.
And then, as you see it, yousee them like kind of, you know,
oh, they're loosening up ontheir grip.
All their landings are startingto get a lot better.
You know all.
They finally got it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
They finally figured out when you know, yeah, yeah,
and that takes time as aninstructor too, it does For you
to really start being able tosample different people's
personality and things like thatand their learning style.
I mean that that's.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
That is true.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
That's one of the harder part.
You're going to learn more asan instructor than than you will
doing any other rating orcertificate.
But Landings.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
How do I do that?
Like that freaks me out.
The first landings, and then Ifeel like they seem like they
could do it for a while and thenthey, like you, start to let
your guard down and all of asudden they regress.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, yeah, you just got to be on it.
You just got to be on it.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, and then that ability, gaining that ability to
let them mess it up enoughwhere, but but you can.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You can still jump in there and fix it, and that just
takes time to build that yougot to see and you got to be
able to kind of project outwhere they're going to be the
aircraft state in a period oftime Like that.
Just energy management, that'ssomething you're going to
acquire.
It's just something you'regoing to acquire over time.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
And then when they do that first solo, you're going
to do a couple of landings withthem that day and you're looking
for that perfect day for themto do those landings.
So you just look for thatperfect day to get those three
landings take off.
Some landings in yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Obviously that first solo is so nerve wracking
because like did I teach themenough?
Just like the check ride.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Did I teach them everything they need to know for
this day?
You're hoping somebody doesn'tcome in the pattern.
You're hoping the King Airdoesn't rip into the pattern and
throw everything off, and allthese island guys who don't care
about anything.
Right bases, long finals, shortfinals.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Allegedly.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, right.
Well, I didn't say you did it.
I know you follow all the rules.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I do.
I'll stop by later.
You can't happen to me.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
But I mean, yeah, it's nerve wracking, but I think
so.
Like just going back, so we'veisolated pleasure flying, and
then I guess like what would thenext Mm hmm, what's that gate
be like, the next thing that weare considering beyond?
(29:13):
You know, do you have anaspiration?
Like what, do you want to buyan airplane?
You're gonna rent an airplane,like things like that.
So, like the decision tree, westart just navigating like how,
although maybe it's justpleasure, but are what are?
you gonna use the?
What are you Gonna use it for?
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's.
I mean, it's very much a subset.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Or are you gonna use it, or are you just gonna get in
?
Just let it do nothing with it?
I've seen that a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That's true, where they'll get that?
Just a buy list thing, just toget the rating.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
They'll get the rating and then they just let it
lapse and they just don't doanything.
Yeah, it's like you spend allthat time and money.
It's like, hey, you know, youtry to tell them, like, figure
something out.
You know, take that, you know,at least once or twice a year,
do something with it.
You know it's an adventure justgo it's like a passport just to
go places that other peoplehaven't gone, to do things.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I did that with the CFI.
I just I got all the ratingsand then just stopped.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, people do that with the private more often than
that.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Well, you have a fanatone for a little bit there
and do another stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Well, yeah, I mean you have it a little bit of a
plan, but you know you just kindof drop, I mean let go of it.
You know, so and I meanwhatever people do that all the
time with the private.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
So I mean, did you let it go completely, or did you
?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Oh, I have a CFI still.
Oh, you do, you renews it.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
yeah, I renew it yeah , god, could you just imagine
someone that had it and just letit lapse.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Oh, ted had to go through all that check, right,
yeah, okay, I didn't know itwasn't an idiot.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Who would do that?
Don't worry.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
I stepped in for you on that one.
Okay, that's kind of stuffScott would do.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Right, yeah, I mean I yeah, no, here we are.
I haven't had a lapse again, soat least it's easy if I check
right twice, and you were double.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I too, right yeah.
Oh man, not the MEI, though.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, Okay, I was gonna do that actually, like about
four years ago, I was gonnastart that up, but I didn't even
do a lesson.
I got the like the binder, thebooks, like for the airplane.
I never didn't even do a singlelesson.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Man.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
One day maybe.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You can fly multi, though I just feel like you'd be
terrified compared to, like,jumping in a piston.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
multi now versus all the turbine time you have,
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Oh, don't let him fall.
He goes appealing all the time.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, but a piston multi that would oh, a piston
multi okay, piston singles.
One thing I know what'shappening if that ended fail,
that piston multi happensgetting all those knobs forward
and all the stuff like no,thanks, no thanks.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
What are you doing?
The layer?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Now you just.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
He's got autopilot, he doesn't need all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
No, yeah, I get on an engine field.
I get the autopilot on about assoon as I can, but it won't
engage if you're all like goingcrazy.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Is there another pilot with you?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, but they're not doing anything.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
There you go, it's not the same.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
They're not doing anything.
They're doing call outs andstuff, yeah nothing.
And you leave the both thrustlevers full forward.
The engine is not making thrust, isn't making thrust, but
you're just holding them becauseyou don't want to diagnose,
like right now.
It's not like a multi, or everysecond a piston or propeller,
whatever a prop airplane, it'snot critical, it's just gonna
(32:27):
continue.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
You limit a deli climate.
3,000 feet per minute with oneengine probably.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
No 1,000, only 1,000.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
That's it wow.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So is the solo based on hours or?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
experience.
What's that Fantastic?
Speaker 3 (32:44):
You're okay, once you can solo one person.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
That's a great question.
It is what do you think?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
No, it's not.
So here's the thing when you'reteaching and there's multiple
instructors and multiplestudents, the students start to
talk and they're like, well, Idid mine in like 10 hours, and
that other person starts well,hey, this guy didn't tell me how
come I can't.
It's like, well, one, maybe Iteach a little bit differently
or two, your skill, yourlearning level.
(33:12):
So I would just say you'regonna be ready when you feel
comfortable, cause there's timeswhere I thought I felt
comfortable with the studentssolo and they just didn't want,
they didn't feel, they justdidn't have that confidence that
I had in them and it was justone of those things, a hurdle
they had to get over.
So it would.
I would basically say, listen,I really can't give you a
(33:34):
definite number.
We're gonna work here together,we're gonna we're gonna get this
done, but it's gonna be when Ifeel you're safe, and when you
feel you're safe is the bestanswer.
But this is the problem with,like I said, multiple
instructors in the same companyand multiple students and they
start talking and they startcomparing, like you know this
person, how come I'm not soloingin 10 hours?
(33:55):
And like we I think wediscussed this earlier it's like
, yeah, you can solo in 10 hours.
Is it the best thing?
I don't know, If something goeswrong, they're gonna want to
look back and see why did thisguy solo in 10 hours?
And you know, I'm sure in those10 hours that instructor
covered everything, checked allthe boxes and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
But if I ever had a student that was like, why am I
not soloing in 10 hours?
I'd be like, cause you didn'tgo to Don Mather, and as your
instructor you went to me sothat's.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I don't have my luck.
I went I can't remember I minedefinitely wasn't 10 with Lee.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Mine wasn't 10,.
Mine wasn't 10 either.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
No.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I feel, like as a CFI , potentially teaching somebody
I wouldn't like.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
It's terrifying.
You're probably gonna have somemore hours than that.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah, to be comfortable putting my signature
and my CFI number in yourlogbook for you to go.
Do that.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it is.
I mean, I can't picture ascenario where 10 hours is
enough.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I mean, unless they have like ultralight, like a
bunch of ultralight flying, andthey have some other stuff off
the books and it's like.
You're like, oh, you know allthis stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
See, I had a student that she had her helicopter
rating.
So I don't think it was within10 hours that she soloed, but it
was pretty close to that.
But she also had, like I said,a helicopter, so she had a lot
of the stuff down already, youknow.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
So she understood some things.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Right, totally.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
And Scott and I would go up all the time with the old
guys as kids out of 80 Deltaand they'd let us shoot Like we
weren't logging.
At that time we weren't reallyold enough to be taking lessons
or anything.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
But like we had a feel for it, like when we
started.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, so that they might have helped towards your
10 hours too, that you were ableto.
You know, do it.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
So cause you had that stuff?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, it all helps.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
The whole process just seems daunting to me.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And I don't know if it's a more daunting.
That's one thing that like Iwish.
I mean there's a bunch ofthings I regret in my
instructing career, but one ofthe things I wish I would have
done better, or maybe moreconsistently, was just keeping
them have the regs out.
This is what we need to satisfy.
(36:15):
You are here Like we havechecked these boxes, and you are
here and make sure they arejust intimately aware of what
all is required.
So there's like just no, it'sjust transparent to them.
You know you talked about it inthat like initial sit down
meeting, like what therequirements are about, how much
(36:38):
it's gonna cost, but then, onceyou start going in there, you
know doling out a thousand bucksa week or whatever it is to get
things done, get through it.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
So I had a notebook.
So for every my students Iwould always write down what I
taught on that day, cause youhave to, you know, keep the
records of.
You know you keep in your logbook that you flew with that
person, but I would keep, likemore detailed logs in there and
at the very front of their page.
I would have, you know, threehours a nighttime, across
country time.
They needed 10 hours.
(37:09):
You know the solo.
I had all that stuff and Iwould check it off.
We did steep turns.
You know I've had all therequirements that they would
have to have for their privateand I would check it off so that
they would see it too, like,okay, here's what we need to get
, here's where we're at rightnow.
You know, and this is whatwe're gonna go, and I would give
you know you'd have out gosh,now I'll get in my blank.
I was like a syllabus of here'swhat we're gonna cover.
(37:31):
So part 61, you don't have togo ABCD, you know you could skip
around if someone's stuck onsomething, you can.
Okay, let's skip over this andlet's, let's get this and we'll,
we'll circle back to that andwe'll figure it out.
But so I would show them likeokay, here's where we need to
get and here's what we're.
You know we're gonna fall thisstuff down here, and you know.
So that way in there, they knewthat there was a plan there for
(37:53):
them, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
What are you not covering for the solo Like what
are you, what are you?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
just so there's gonna , what would you?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
just obviously cross country stuff I know is not
being covered.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Well, to be honest, it's been like two years since
I've had a student I took from,you know, from like the
beginning on.
But there is a pre-soul testthat they're gonna take and
that's gonna go over that, overthat plane.
You're gonna basically have atest on stuff.
They need to know about that.
What kind of plane are theyflying?
So for our guys it would be anarcher.
Okay, how much fuel can youcarry?
(38:29):
How much fuel are you gonnaburn?
How much fuel do you carry?
What's the weight and balanceof that plane?
You go over weight and balancebecause you know you're trying
yeah, sure, the archer and allthose guys are forgiving,
especially they're soloing.
You know it's like, okay, I cancarry a full amount of fuel and
you know, get off the groundand wherever, and we're gonna be
safe, what the crosswind max isand things like that.
(38:52):
So you're gonna give a pre-solotest.
I honestly don't have one infront of me to reference it.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And that's just something you, as a CFI, make.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Well, no, I'm pretty it's required.
Well, you make it as yes, youdo make it as a CFI, but it's
also part of at least for us,it's part of the requirement
that they have to have thatbecause you don't want them to
get up in the plane and they'relike well, I didn't know I
needed fuel.
You know something stupid likethat?
Right, I didn't know I neededsix quarts of oil and I thought
(39:22):
I could fly with two quarts ofoil.
You know Things like that, justlike minor things that you're
gonna go over with them on apre-solo.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, pre-solo knowledge test is required.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Yeah, well, I'm sorry it is required because it's on
actually when you sign it intheir logbook that they took a
pre-solo test.
Knowledge test, yeah, Knowledgetest, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
His Dave.
The flight school has generatedthe flight.
That one for you.
That's not you.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, your own test no.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah.
So I mean, yeah, you wanna havea sample knowledge of things
that may be pertinent.
Like this is, you know, not somuch like solo cross country.
This is bare minimum.
There's maybe a little bit atsolo cross country.
In my opinion, that's when Iwould tell a student like, hey,
go ahead and start reallygetting serious about your
written.
You know, I am about to let yougo fly 50 miles, which may as
(40:12):
well be 1500 miles.
So as far as you're concerned,at this stage, so like now, you
should know if I'm about to letyou solo cross country, you
should have, for the most part,all the piece, Unless I've kinda
neglected something, you shouldhave all the pieces in mind.
You should be pretty wellrounded.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
At the solo cross.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
So you guys make your own curriculum, or are there
FAA requirements?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Well, there are.
So we have some guidelines.
There's part one to 41 schoolsand the school's gonna develop
their own curriculum.
It will be approved or acceptedby the FAA.
And then part 61, they justkinda give you a very general
outline of the things you needto cover.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
You need to cover yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
And not necessarily how you cover it.
It's not like lesson by lesson.
As long as you get it beforethey take their check ride,
that's good enough.
Well, so that's a lot easierfor the average person.
You know they can learn attheir own pace.
They don't have to redo.
A lesson Like 141 is good forcollege kids College age kids,
where they're like programmed tolearn and stuff but for the
(41:21):
general population, per 61 seemsto be a much better answer.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Yeah, so when we took our CFA, we all had to make our
own lesson plans.
Yeah, you had to make your ownlesson plans on.
And then the examiner would sayall right, teach me something
on steep turns, you know.
So I had these lesson plansthat I spent I don't know days
making and we went weeks yeah,days, weeks, whatever.
And then I remember when I wasteaching at Burke FAA, someone
(41:47):
from FAA came in and they'relike this is after I had my CFA
and they took two of us and theysays I want you to teach me
this, so we taught him that.
Then he goes look, don't evenworry about that.
He goes go to.
He's had us go to ASA.
And he says use these lessonplans.
It covers everything.
He was right, it had whitestuff for whiteboards on there.
They had videos, it was all.
(42:08):
It was crazy.
But like this guy came in, soyou guys did a good job, but I'm
gonna make your life easier, soit worked out.
Somebody has already inventedthe wheel, the wheel, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
They just want to see that you basically have the.
You're able to teach something.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I think, though, if anybody up there looking to get
your CFI, it is beneficial to gothrough it yourself and make
those own lesson plans, becauseit forces you to really just
break everything down wayfurther than you would otherwise
, even if you never use thelesson plans the exercise of
making them, I think, is verybeneficial.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
That's what you learn is, when you're responsible for
teaching somebody else, you getthat next level deeper, several
levels deeper than you wouldjust understanding yourself.
When you are responsible forteaching it, you just get a much
deeper understanding, I think.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And that's what that is somewhat designed to maybe
show.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, Jared Johnson's in this chat.
I wonder if he I know he wasgetting his CFI.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Robert just wants people to feel the pain.
Yep, I agree.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, yeah, I had to do it.
You guys got to do it too, butum.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I had to do it twice.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
You have to do the lessons plans twice.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
No, I didn't even make me do the lesson plans.
Okay, because I already held itonce, so I don't know if that's
wrong or not.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
What did you have to do for a re-up Check?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
right, Um, we did a short oral and then we yeah, the
actual check right did all themaneuvers.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Okay, so I think I think it was Jack Cochran said
he let his laps and had to do itand he was just.
Of course, I forget the comedy.
Maybe he's like, yeah, it'slike he didn't even study for it
.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I'm sure he didn't.
He just like, yeah,astrophysicist.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, well, I think you can just choose one of the
CFIs you have right and do thecheck ride for that, and it
reinstates all of them.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
So I think he just he's like yeah, I just did it, I
just did a multi.
That was the easiest for me.
Just read my MEI and thatactivated everything else.
I'm like he didn't even studyfor it.
I think it was Cochran orsomebody else did that.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, it sounds like a Cochran thing but so still
terrifies me though.
I mean there's a lot, but Imean, how do you eat an elephant
right?
One bite at a time.
So it's like you got to startsomewhere and we've kind of
covered that initial dialogue,getting a feel for what they
want, and then that's going toevolve what they want to do with
(44:42):
it.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
So, rob, did you ever work as a CFI?
I mean other than your sister'sone lesson that never got her
into playing.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yes and no.
I've gotten jobs as a CFI.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Okay, have you ever had a student?
That you sold.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
The places I was got hired at.
I was just you just kind of hadto hang out there all day and
wait for a student to come in,and it drove me insane.
I just I stopped going in.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
So that's kind of common.
That sounds about right yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
So I did the interviews and stuff with one
school.
Welcome this week's episode of the Far Aim Podcast.
Today we have guest Lake ErieIsland's flight legend Jeff
Denovich, lee's former student,lee's protege.
Anything Jeff says, correct orincorrect, you can just blame
Lee, for he has a general ruleof thumb.
(00:27):
We have for the first time mysister on the show.
She is filling in for Scottbecause Scott is not here.
She said Scott just drinks andasks Lee frustrating questions.
I can try that.
That was qualifications to geton the show.
We are going to cover thisepisode taking a student from
(00:50):
just.
We assume they've walked in thedoor and they want to take the
lessons.
Maybe we won't need to go intothe sales process so much.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
They're committed.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, they're committed.
You, as a CFI, have now got toget this person through a rating
.
We're just going to focus on tothe first solo part for this
episode.
We're doing this because I'mconsidering taking some students
down in South Florida.
If you have availability of anairplane and you're in South
(01:20):
Florida, shoot me an email.
Consider taking on a handful ofstudents on the side this
winter.
Yeah, that's kind of a selfishtopic for me.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Self-serving.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Self-serving topic for me, because that the zero
time to first solo is whatfreaks me out the most about
actually using my flightinstructor certificate.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
That's where all the meet is.
You kind of think about it likeonce you get them to the solo,
you've taught them 90%.
It's polishing rough edges andgetting the rest of their
aeronautical experiencerequirements done.
That's the way I always triedto treat it.
I think the majority of yourinstructing other than checking
(02:11):
boxes is done at that solo.
I think you're spot on withthinking that's kind of the part
that freaks a lot of people out.
And then you get them to thatfirst solo and it's like well, I
hope this goes well.
Did I teach them what they needto know to get safely around
this pattern or go solo thatairport?
That's 25 miles away orwhatever.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, as an instructor, I think I was more
nervous when my students aredoing their first solo than I
was when I did my first solo.
I could see that as you get inthe plane and it's like here's
what I remember really tellingme, it's like, all right, it's
going to be a little bitdifferent because you're not
going to have this weight hereor something, I'm like, yeah, I
mean, this weight is going to bedifferent.
And once you get up in there,you're like I don't have lee to
(02:52):
take over the controls if I'mgoing to land short or if I'm
too steep, or so that's allgoing through your mind.
But as nervous as I was doingmy solo, I think I'm more as an
instructor watch him do theirfirst take off and then come
down for the landing, becauseyou're just like, okay, is there
something I forgot?
(03:13):
You know you got everything,because there's a list that you
go through for the pre solo thatyou're like making sure that
they're ready.
You've had them do a bunch oflandings.
You've had another instructorgo with them just to make sure
you didn't miss anything, tomake sure that they feel they're
ready to.
So there's like a safety valvethere with the other instructor,
but you're still like I said,you're watching them come in and
(03:34):
then when they touch down,you're like, okay, fine, so then
after that, then you get alittle bit more comfortable, but
I think I was.
I'm more nervous as aninstructor when my students
doing their first landing as asolo pilot.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Do you think some of that could be attributed to like
you didn't know what you didn'tknow when you were doing your
first solo?
Or do you feel like the process?
There wasn't enough safeguardsthere?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
No, no, I think when I when you taught me, and first
of all, it can never happen tome.
I was taught by Lee, that'slike my model there, so we know
that's not going to happen.
But no, no, you did everything.
Well, everything was, was goodwith the stuff you did.
It was just me personally wasjust like there's no one else
for me.
That's next to me.
You know there is.
You know like before there wasalways that thing.
(04:17):
You're right there, sosomething is wrong.
I know, because you got the two, the two yolks there and you've
got the rudder pedals.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I know you can you know, take care of it.
But you're saying, though,you're more nervous now as an
instructor.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, because I'm just I don't you know, like it's
okay and like when they go dotheir their check ride with the
examiner.
You know you don't know whatthey're going to forget.
You know, like you, you'vetaught them everything, but it's
like are they going to forgetit?
And then when they're doingthat solo, you're like, are they
good?
What if they freeze up?
You know what if somethinghappens?
I mean, hopefully you've caughtthat somewhere in the process
(04:52):
and you know, like, like you'reprobably not going to be the
person solo.
You know, right, and that wouldbe hard to tell someone after
they put that money.
But hopefully you could seethat early on the situation and
can say, okay, you know we'regoing to have to really work
hard at this.
Here's what's going wrong.
You know, let's, let's figureout what we can get you to that
solo.
But, like I said, once you'reup there, you just don't.
(05:13):
What if they just all of asudden just have a lapse of?
They just forget?
you know, I don't know.
I mean it hasn't happened.
But you know, you just get, Iget nervous, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I don't worry about some sort of emergency or some
some sort of thing that's likeway out of the norm, just for
some reason comes up in thoseearly stages.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Like a what Like?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
an engine failure, bird strike, bird strike.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Stuff you know, someone coming in and like a cub
that's not talking on the radioand they don't know what to do.
So I remember you sent me toMansfield and I was talking to a
tower, tower, tower, towerairport and they said you're
clear to land.
And I was coming in and I sawthere was a plane and they
(05:57):
actually let's I think I'mtrying to give someone took off
Some reason.
They let someone go at the sametime and all I did was like I
can't land, I didn't sayanything, I just circled on
final.
They never said anything to me,which was kind of weird too.
But I remember that, like myfirst time going to Mansfield by
myself and I I don't even I'meven told leave.
(06:18):
This is what happened.
But now he knows.
But I remember I was coming inand I see this plane.
I was just like I can't land.
I was always told you know,there's someone on the runway,
don't you know, don't land.
So you know that's whathappened.
That's my story.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And there's no, I mean, there's nothing wrong with
that.
When you get that clearance toland, you can kind of do
whatever you want to make a safelanding.
Sure, you know, like you'restraight in, you're cleared to
land straight in or somethinglike that, so you do have that
option.
But also there's such a widerange of capabilities of
different airplanes coming toland and at Tower Fields they
(06:54):
don't know how short you mightcut it.
Did you do like kind of thepower off 180 type approach that
I taught you?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, I was probably doing that.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Probably, and so that means you were in tight and
they're not used to that.
They're thinking you're goingto kind of do a three mile final
and it's like, no, you're notgoing to do that.
So it throws everything off andthere's such a wide range.
I don't think you're off baseby treating it like you would a
non-towered field.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, but like that's what I'm saying, is there's
something to come up so that forme, that was mine on that solo
cross country was there was aplane.
I wasn't used to seeingsomething like that at a towered
airport and I was like, okay,I'm just going to do like a
little circle here just to givethem some spacing, you know.
But yeah, like you said, enginefailure, bird strike.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, the circle thing or the plane being on the
runway after you're cleared,like nowadays we just key the
mic, tell the controller.
Hey, I see someone on therunway, what's going on here?
And it's kind of like a thing.
But like as a student, it'slike do I say something?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Like you know what I mean, especially if you're not
learning out of a control fieldlike that, and the only thing
you do say at the end is I'm astudent pilot, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh yeah, that's a story Scott Fulmer you have to,
absolutely.
Scott still says that when he'son the radio.
Student pilot.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I mean, there's definitely the unforeseen
circumstances.
You hope that you've spentenough time with them and kind
of caught onto theiridiosyncrasies, things like that
.
But you've kind of done like apsyche vow on them really.
I mean, you're wearing a lot ofhats when you're doing this and
you're letting somebody go,that is true.
So you're seeing, like, didthey have any?
Like maybe underlined, do Ihave any hints of any?
(08:33):
Like unsteadyness, likepsychologically?
You gotta diagnose all thatkind of before you're letting
them go.
And you just start withmaneuvers for like the first
couple hours, right, it'sprimarily that's what I, that's
typically what I do, but I tryto get to take off some landings
as quickly as possible.
You know, people think you knowSame here.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
take off some landings.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Like somebody like they say oh, I sold it in 10
hours.
Like okay, yeah, but ifanything came up in those 10
hours, what were you gonna do?
Those are the people that Iworry about.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I'm in that boat, scott, and I Don sold us real
quick.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, you guys were awesome pilots, though, and I'm
not, so I took me whatever, howmany hours, I know a long time
ago.
We actually did that.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
If you look at an old episode, we actually broke it
down.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And I don't know how many it was, but I was like
double or triple what you guyshad, and in not saying that, I
would have been equipped tohandle something popping up, but
at 10 hours there's like no way.
Yeah, there's just no way.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It wasn't our instructor's private 4,000 foot,
150 foot wide grass strip thathe knows.
No one else is in the patternof because it's his strip the
engine failure.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, those are the big ones.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
But yeah, I mean some things, some of the tri-motor
coming in at like 30 knots, youknow super slow.
I mean you can see it forever,but it's really.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I take that back.
I learned how to land there,but I actually sold at Port
Clinton.
I thought I thought RunwayNiner yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I thought I remember you telling me that.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Now the time and place and those times were
different at Port Clinton.
It was a lot slower at PortClinton then than it is now.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, it was March 16th, it was winter time,
relatively slow.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, and what 2007?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
This would have been 2005.
2005, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Different times, I mean that place is a nut house
compared to that, but Look atthere we got someone that busted
Denver Brava on his first crosscountry solo.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's the spirit.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
There you go.
I don't feel so bad.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I mean it happens.
I mean those are just thingslike.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
I'd be curious the circumstances.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, give us elaboration details please.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I did bust Newark's Bravo when I first time in New
York City.
I was leaving there, I waslanding in Linden, or take off
from Linden.
There's like a really smallceiling there and I just I think
it was like 800 feet orsomething like that you had to
cross.
You had to cross some buildings.
From whatever I was taking off,I was like I can get over these
buildings.
I was even paying attention at800 feet.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So I made a NASA report.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And here I am.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
NASA report how early .
Speaker 2 (11:14):
at least you did one how?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
early do you teach the NASA report?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I never taught the NASA report.
If they found out about that,it wasn't for me.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that I did not
even cause.
I didn't understand, like Imean, I guess I got it, but I
didn't know how to.
Where would you find that tofill it out?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Like I didn't know any of that I have to say with
Lee's style was more I'm goingto show you how to fly, I'm
going to teach you how to fly.
You know what I'm saying?
And then it was.
I'm not my no means cutting downon you, cause like I said you
taught me an awesome skill level, like, hey, I'm going to teach
you how to fly.
The rest of the stuff you'regoing to have to find out pretty
(11:52):
much on your own, you know.
And it was basically saying hey, I could sit here and help you
read all this stuff, but you'regoing to pay me for it, or I'm
going to send you how you canread this, but in the meantime
we're going to spend all thistime teaching you the skills to
fly the plane.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Do it correctly, you know so yeah, so Halle, let's
say Halle booked you forSaturday, sunday, like an hour.
Saturday hour Sunday, first twolessons.
What are you covering, like?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
so the first one, and this is I would start it like
Lee said, it was kind ofstarting a review process.
I remember Lee doing this.
Pay attention now, what do youwant to do?
Do you want are you just here?
Do you just want to fly theairplane?
Do you want to just solo, or doyou want to become a private
pilot, commercial pilot, which Itake on to my students?
The thing that I've added sincethen is have you taken any ADHD
(12:45):
medication prior?
Because I've or coke no no.
The reason for that?
The reason for that is beforeyou can solo, you have to get
your medical.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And I've seen students that I picked up from
other instructors that I getthem all the way up there.
You know they've had, like,let's say, 10 hours and they
want to get there, they want tosolo.
So I'm like, okay, let's gothrough your medical process,
let's get you your medical.
Oh, I take an Adderall orsomething like that and they're
like disqualified, so they can'tget it.
(13:18):
So now they put all this timeto get to the solo and they
weren't able to.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
So that's like they have to go through a bunch of
stuff, but that's God.
I know one person right now islike two years into it that they
haven't been able to get theirmedical, so they haven't been
able to solo.
And this is someone I picked upfrom someone else.
So that's one of the firstquestions is you know, after I
ask you, what do you want to do?
Do you just want to learn howto fly?
Do you just want to do this?
Because I just want to put onmy bucket list that, hey, I was
(13:46):
able to solo.
So now you're just going towork strictly on the whole
soloing stuff.
But if they're saying, hey, Iwant to make this a career, then
you're like, okay, Well, eventhe same thing you're going to
ask about, you know, did theytake any medication that could
possibly just qualify for thatstuff?
So then the next thing we getonto, then I'm going to go okay,
here's the airplane, and we'regoing to go over and we're going
to do some.
I'm just going to show you thisstuff.
(14:07):
Here's the ailerons.
This is what the yolk does.
If you turn, turn it to theright, what's going to happen?
Turn it to the left, you know.
So you turn to the right, youknow the ailerons are going to
come up.
Then, left, the other side isgoing to go down.
That's going to help us turn inthe air.
What the rudders do on theground, what they do in the air
go everything and just we'll goover all the instruments as
we're singing the plane, becausethen once the engine started,
(14:30):
that's when everything.
So then the first thing we'regoing to do is we're going to do
a takeoff and landing.
We're probably going to do apower 180 off, because I'm going
to show you like, listen, youknow, and this is one of the
things that Lee taught me wasalways, we're going to do the
power 180 off landing.
And it may sound weird, but Iremember when I was partnered in
a Cherokee 180, a couple of mypartners in the plane.
(14:52):
I flew with them and theywanted to do their, their, their
biennial, and I was like okay.
I was like we're going to do apower 180 off Biennial, why not?
I didn't agree.
Why I wasn't there when theychanged the wording.
Why should I?
Why should I have to do?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
it.
That's how.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think about it Exactly you started your flight
and all your training after theyalready changed it.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
No, I didn't.
Yes, you did.
No, I didn't.
I don't think so.
Well, how did I get, how did Iget, biennial?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Because that's what everybody says, because you're
still like stuck on that, thereyou go.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Why change it?
Speaker 3 (15:24):
We don't like it all the closer.
First time on Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Anyway, when did, when did you start flight
training?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Well, what were you doing?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Continue, okay, so anyway.
So I was taught the 180.
So I would do this with themwhile they're buying, and you
know what?
I'm not changing it for you andthey couldn't do it, they did
not know how to do it.
But the reason for teaching 180is like, hey, if you lose your,
you lose power to your engine.
This plane's gonna glide.
And now it's gonna teach youthat.
(15:55):
I kind of you kind of get usedto it, like how far can I
actually go on this planegliding?
So we're gonna do that and,like I said, her first lesson,
the first two lessons, are gonnabe takeoffs and landings, and
then from there maybe we'll do afew maneuvers.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
How you do.
You wanna learn for fun or tobecome a professional pilot?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
That would be some of the first questions he'd be
asking, though.
Oh yeah, for fun, for fun, andlike by fun, oh, you can ask.
Actually, I wanna know how longdo you have to be off
medication?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
to Well, like I said, it's a few years.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It's a few years, like I said, cause I think what
they have to do is and I'm not ahundred percent sure on this
one, but I think you have to beout that medication, and then
you have to.
You know it's, you're on thatmedication for a reason, but you
have to be off it so you canshow like you can get your
license.
You know, once you get yourlicense, once you get your
license, you gotta still stayoff of it.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, I know it.
That's so convoluted with themedical stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I was advised by attorneys just to never talk
about medical stuff on the show.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Really.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh yeah, cause it's.
It's impossible not to stepyour step.
Step in a turn.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I guess yeah, but still, I mean.
So the vice is just yeah, thatwould be the first thing.
We added.
One of the things I said, likedo you want to do for fun?
And then I would ask him aboutthe whole medication thing,
cause you don't want to put allthat money into it to get to
that solo.
You know, like we said, even ifit's 10 hours, what are we
talking there?
About $200 an hour, so you'retalking two grand.
(17:23):
Just to get to the point, let'ssay you made it to that 10
hours and it's like okay, let'sget your solo.
Oh, we got to fill out yourmedical.
Take a medication.
Oh yeah, take this.
Oh, you're not going to begetting that medical.
So now they just wasted twogrand, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Absolutely so.
Flying for fun versus flyinglike wanting to do a living,
what's the difference Like forthe first five hours, with how
you're handling that?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I need James P Gray MD.
Can you email me?
I got I got some medicalquestions.
I need to talk to you aboutsomebody I know.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Oh yeah, dr Gray, he's on a pilot ground.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, great, you just got it Email me.
I wish I knew what my email was.
Do you know what my email is,rob?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
F-A-R-A-M at leagueriffingcom.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, email me.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
He's on pilot ground too, just message him.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Okay, yeah, maybe I'll do that then, but I don't
know what his username is onpilot ground.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Wish I had Dr Gray on .
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Probably.
Yeah, it'd probably be good tohave an AME on.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
But we might have to line this up.
I'm not trying to derail thesubject, but I'm just like I'm
trying to keep up with what'sgoing on here.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yes, yes, exactly.
I know where to find those.
I know where to find those.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Performance enhancements.
Performance enhancements yes,what Lee?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
what Lee's being accused of possibly being Is it
okay to double dose, and whichones are safe?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe it's three to six months,but all I know is the one guy
who is two years so far and hestill hasn't.
Like I said, I don't know, whoknows, maybe he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Maybe he hasn't AMEs and just how all that paperwork
is written and their individualcase and other aspects of their
medical history.
It's, I mean, it's hard, so Imean.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Well, that Matt's waiting for his check, right?
So good luck with that.
Yeah, good luck with that, Matt.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That was kind of way up.
I'm glad we could get you backinto it.
I hope we've helped in some wayand obviously you guys can help
steer the conversation as weget into this.
But what else have we missed, Iguess?
But so in the five you weretalking about, in the five hours
, Like the first five hours.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You're asking like, okay, are you trying to become a
professional?
Is, how are you trying tobecome a professional?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
pilot.
Hopefully that's done in thefirst conversation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
But I'm asking, like those first five hours now,
based off of what that answer is, is there any differences in
like how you're teaching andstuff in those first five hours?
Let's call it our first 10hours?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Versus, like how he wants to learn how to fly for
fun in our hypotheticalsituation here.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I think, so what do you think?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Versus somebody who just wants like their gung-ho on
three pilot.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
The first, probably 10 hours is probably the most
critical differences in how Iwould handle that.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Is it gung-ho or gung-ho?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Gung-ho.
I'm pretty sure it's gung-ho,okay, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I didn't mean to derail it too much there.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I think, everyone's helped himsince, except Scott.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Okay, we'll let him know.
Well, you're filling in forScott, so you don't have to
really help anybody.
You just kind of.
I'm much more motivating,though, having some drinks.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I mean you haven't said anything to lead to
irritate him yet, so you're kindof failing right now.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I'll try, just think it's not, it won't be.
It shouldn't be hard, itshouldn't be hard.
Well, jeff already did with theflight or the Bineal flight
review.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Still Bineal yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
So we have a Bineal flying pre-cosh.
We got to just to bring thatlingo back.
I'm going to make sure that'son the that's big on the T-shirt
.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
The next T-shirt okay .
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Is it called a flight review?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It's a flight review.
Cause they went from the everytwo years to every 24 calendar
months.
That doesn't work for me, dude.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Which is Bineal.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
No, it's not, they're different ones.
By the end of the month, onceto the day.
Every two years to the day.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Two years is how many months?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
two calendar years is 24 calendar months.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So it's by annual.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
No, it's not.
It's not, but it was different.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Never agree, todd, so let's change it.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Look the difference between the first five to ten
hours and how you're instructingsome of them.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I think those are the critical differences.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay, so what are the differences?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Do you agree or no?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, I think it's critical.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I just think like those are the first ones, though
, the first five to ten hours.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's where I think the critical differences are how
I handle it versus how,depending on whether they're
going to be pleasure or I wantto go be an airline pilot.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
No, like it.
Yeah, there's no wrong answer.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
No, I'm just trying to wrap my head what I'm trying
to think.
Do you want me to talk?
Yes, I'd like you to talk,please.
I just want to be the student.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
If somebody comes in and they're like I've always
wanted to fly, I now, like mykids are out of college, I now
have that money available and Ican go pursue my dream.
But I don't want to be acommercial pilot.
This is just fun for me.
We're going to go into whateverthey think is fun.
That's what we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I don't want.
If that's maneuvers they wantto go do.
I'm going to turn it into kindof turns around a point which is
a is that a performance?
What is that?
What is that called?
Not a performance maneuver,that's a ground reference
maneuver.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Ground reference.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Not performance.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
I concur.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
But there's, thank you, roger.
Roger, I'm going to let them dothat around their house or
around their boat at the marina,or whatever they're going to do
.
I'm going to let them, I'mgoing to try and give them some
something to do while they'restill enjoying.
They're looking out the windowand I'm just going to be like,
oh, watch the bank angle, watchthe altitude, and just kind of
throw that in there and let themjust slowly build those skills.
(23:08):
I just want them to keepenjoying and keep coming back.
That's how I'm paid, that's howthey enjoy.
Everybody wins.
So you come in and you say, well, I'm 18 years old and I want to
be an airline pilot.
It's like, okay, we're going tostart with ground reference
maneuvers, turns, s turns acrossthe road, but I don't care
(23:29):
where your house is, we're goingto go over the straightest,
longest road we can and we'regoing to knock out S turns
across the road and we're goingto do boring stuff.
But we, I want to get your scangoing and making sure it's
instrumenty while stickingruddery as much as possible.
But it's boring stuff.
So some people like Jeff and I,remember a day specifically
(23:51):
we're out doing, we're over atPortland, which has a 5,600 foot
runway and our home airport has3,500 foot runway.
We're over there doing likejust take Austin land.
He's just banging them out.
And I gave you an enginefailure about midfield.
I don't know if you remember ornot.
You probably don't remember.
I don't remember it's well yeah,yeah, maybe you will after,
(24:13):
after I'm done with the story.
But we're like midfield, so youhave like 2,500 feet more to
where even at the end of therunway, and you're like not
going to make the end of therunway and touch on a threshold
of all.
And so I was just like, dude,just put it on the pavement and
dude, you cranking bank, and weturn final at like 30 feet and
(24:34):
we landed like that's what Iwant to learn.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You want to do stick and rudder stuff and like
there's no way to really feelsomebody out for what they want
to get out of it accurately.
Like they may want to getsomething out they don't know
that they want to get out of itwhen they come into the door.
So you were a stick and rudderguy Like you wanted to like main
, handle an airplane and flying40 knots winds.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
You wanted to do all that, and that's why you're
doing that.
That's why I like flying theislands and not Exactly yeah,
that's why I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So you wanted that from day one and there's no way
that I could have asked thatsitting in the office.
You know when you came in.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I may not have known that when he started and there's
no way for me to know that ifhe doesn't even know that I
don't know where it was in ourlesson, but I do remember one
time you did, you banked us overat Sundaski and at the time it
had had been low time for mebecause I was like, oh my God,
we're not going to, we're goingto die here.
You know I'm thinking at thetime.
But now, look at now that youknow I've flown for I think I
(25:33):
got like 2600 hours now it'slike, okay, those are not really
that steep of bank.
But at that time that's the onething with students too, you're
not going to, you want to startthem out slowly.
You know, you don't want to getinto like the steep.
I wouldn't personally get intosteep turns too early just
because you don't want them to.
Night time is another thing is.
I remember when me and you didour first night time, I was like
(25:54):
I never want to fly at night.
I'm moving to Alaska where it'snot a requirement, you know.
So I'm thinking but now, I'dlove flying at night because I
can see everything.
But at the time I was like what, if something happens, where am
I going to land?
You know so.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I still hate that stuff in a single engineer plane
.
I mean, I still hate that, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So there's just things you know you just want to
build that.
You're trying to build likebuilding blocks, build that
confidence up, you know, to getthem to that solo, you know.
And then what hurdles do youhave to get over?
What are?
You know the death grip youever get a person with that.
You know they're like, yeah,they had.
They're like tight on that,yeah, and they won't turn.
He's like, okay, look just like.
And you show them they're like,look, I'm just using like two
(26:34):
fingers here to turn this plane.
You don't need that death gripthere.
You know so.
So you trust as.
And then, as you see it, yousee them like kind of, you know,
oh, they're loosening up ontheir grip.
All their landings are startingto get a lot better.
You know all.
They finally got it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
They finally figured out when you know, yeah, yeah,
and that takes time as aninstructor too, it does For you
to really start being able tosample different people's
personality and things like thatand their learning style.
I mean that that's.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
That is true.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
That's one of the harder part.
You're going to learn more asan instructor than than you will
doing any other rating orcertificate.
But Landings.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
How do I do that?
Like that freaks me out.
The first landings, and then Ifeel like they seem like they
could do it for a while and thenthey, like you, start to let
your guard down and all of asudden they regress.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, yeah, you just got to be on it.
You just got to be on it.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, and then that ability, gaining that ability to
let them mess it up enoughwhere, but but you can.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You can still jump in there and fix it, and that just
takes time to build that yougot to see and you got to be
able to kind of project outwhere they're going to be the
aircraft state in a period oftime Like that.
Just energy management, that'ssomething you're going to
acquire.
It's just something you'regoing to acquire over time.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
And then when they do that first solo, you're going
to do a couple of landings withthem that day and you're looking
for that perfect day for themto do those landings.
So you just look for thatperfect day to get those three
landings take off.
Some landings in yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Obviously that first solo is so nerve wracking
because like did I teach themenough?
Just like the check ride.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Did I teach them everything they need to know for
this day?
You're hoping somebody doesn'tcome in the pattern.
You're hoping the King Airdoesn't rip into the pattern and
throw everything off, and allthese island guys who don't care
about anything.
Right bases, long finals, shortfinals.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Allegedly.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, right.
Well, I didn't say you did it.
I know you follow all the rules.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I do.
I'll stop by later.
You can't happen to me.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
But I mean, yeah, it's nerve wracking, but I think
so.
Like just going back, so we'veisolated pleasure flying, and
then I guess like what would thenext Mm hmm, what's that gate
be like, the next thing that weare considering beyond?
(29:13):
You know, do you have anaspiration?
Like what, do you want to buyan airplane?
You're gonna rent an airplane,like things like that.
So, like the decision tree, westart just navigating like how,
although maybe it's justpleasure, but are what are?
you gonna use the?
What are you Gonna use it for?
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's.
I mean, it's very much a subset.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Or are you gonna use it, or are you just gonna get in
?
Just let it do nothing with it?
I've seen that a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That's true, where they'll get that?
Just a buy list thing, just toget the rating.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
They'll get the rating and then they just let it
lapse and they just don't doanything.
Yeah, it's like you spend allthat time and money.
It's like, hey, you know, youtry to tell them, like, figure
something out.
You know, take that, you know,at least once or twice a year,
do something with it.
You know it's an adventure justgo it's like a passport just to
go places that other peoplehaven't gone, to do things.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I did that with the CFI.
I just I got all the ratingsand then just stopped.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, people do that with the private more often than
that.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Well, you have a fanatone for a little bit there
and do another stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Well, yeah, I mean you have it a little bit of a
plan, but you know you just kindof drop, I mean let go of it.
You know, so and I meanwhatever people do that all the
time with the private.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
So I mean, did you let it go completely, or did you
?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Oh, I have a CFI still.
Oh, you do, you renews it.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
yeah, I renew it yeah , god, could you just imagine
someone that had it and just letit lapse.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Oh, ted had to go through all that check, right,
yeah, okay, I didn't know itwasn't an idiot.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Who would do that?
Don't worry.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
I stepped in for you on that one.
Okay, that's kind of stuffScott would do.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Right, yeah, I mean I yeah, no, here we are.
I haven't had a lapse again, soat least it's easy if I check
right twice, and you were double.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I too, right yeah.
Oh man, not the MEI, though.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, Okay, I was gonna do that actually, like about
four years ago, I was gonnastart that up, but I didn't even
do a lesson.
I got the like the binder, thebooks, like for the airplane.
I never didn't even do a singlelesson.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Man.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
One day maybe.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You can fly multi, though I just feel like you'd be
terrified compared to, like,jumping in a piston.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
multi now versus all the turbine time you have,
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Oh, don't let him fall.
He goes appealing all the time.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, but a piston multi that would oh, a piston
multi okay, piston singles.
One thing I know what'shappening if that ended fail,
that piston multi happensgetting all those knobs forward
and all the stuff like no,thanks, no thanks.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
What are you doing?
The layer?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Now you just.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
He's got autopilot, he doesn't need all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
No, yeah, I get on an engine field.
I get the autopilot on about assoon as I can, but it won't
engage if you're all like goingcrazy.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Is there another pilot with you?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, but they're not doing anything.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
There you go, it's not the same.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
They're not doing anything.
They're doing call outs andstuff, yeah nothing.
And you leave the both thrustlevers full forward.
The engine is not making thrust, isn't making thrust, but
you're just holding them becauseyou don't want to diagnose,
like right now.
It's not like a multi, or everysecond a piston or propeller,
whatever a prop airplane, it'snot critical, it's just gonna
(32:27):
continue.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
You limit a deli climate.
3,000 feet per minute with oneengine probably.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
No 1,000, only 1,000.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
That's it wow.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So is the solo based on hours or?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
experience.
What's that Fantastic?
Speaker 3 (32:44):
You're okay, once you can solo one person.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
That's a great question.
It is what do you think?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
No, it's not.
So here's the thing when you'reteaching and there's multiple
instructors and multiplestudents, the students start to
talk and they're like, well, Idid mine in like 10 hours, and
that other person starts well,hey, this guy didn't tell me how
come I can't.
It's like, well, one, maybe Iteach a little bit differently
or two, your skill, yourlearning level.
(33:12):
So I would just say you'regonna be ready when you feel
comfortable, cause there's timeswhere I thought I felt
comfortable with the studentssolo and they just didn't want,
they didn't feel, they justdidn't have that confidence that
I had in them and it was justone of those things, a hurdle
they had to get over.
So it would.
I would basically say, listen,I really can't give you a
(33:34):
definite number.
We're gonna work here together,we're gonna we're gonna get this
done, but it's gonna be when Ifeel you're safe, and when you
feel you're safe is the bestanswer.
But this is the problem with,like I said, multiple
instructors in the same companyand multiple students and they
start talking and they startcomparing, like you know this
person, how come I'm not soloingin 10 hours?
(33:55):
And like we I think wediscussed this earlier it's like
, yeah, you can solo in 10 hours.
Is it the best thing?
I don't know, If something goeswrong, they're gonna want to
look back and see why did thisguy solo in 10 hours?
And you know, I'm sure in those10 hours that instructor
covered everything, checked allthe boxes and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
But if I ever had a student that was like, why am I
not soloing in 10 hours?
I'd be like, cause you didn'tgo to Don Mather, and as your
instructor you went to me sothat's.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I don't have my luck.
I went I can't remember I minedefinitely wasn't 10 with Lee.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Mine wasn't 10,.
Mine wasn't 10 either.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
No.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I feel, like as a CFI , potentially teaching somebody
I wouldn't like.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
It's terrifying.
You're probably gonna have somemore hours than that.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah, to be comfortable putting my signature
and my CFI number in yourlogbook for you to go.
Do that.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it is.
I mean, I can't picture ascenario where 10 hours is
enough.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I mean, unless they have like ultralight, like a
bunch of ultralight flying, andthey have some other stuff off
the books and it's like.
You're like, oh, you know allthis stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
See, I had a student that she had her helicopter
rating.
So I don't think it was within10 hours that she soloed, but it
was pretty close to that.
But she also had, like I said,a helicopter, so she had a lot
of the stuff down already, youknow.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
So she understood some things.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Right, totally.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
And Scott and I would go up all the time with the old
guys as kids out of 80 Deltaand they'd let us shoot Like we
weren't logging.
At that time we weren't reallyold enough to be taking lessons
or anything.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
But like we had a feel for it, like when we
started.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, so that they might have helped towards your
10 hours too, that you were ableto.
You know, do it.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
So cause you had that stuff?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, it all helps.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
The whole process just seems daunting to me.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And I don't know if it's a more daunting.
That's one thing that like Iwish.
I mean there's a bunch ofthings I regret in my
instructing career, but one ofthe things I wish I would have
done better, or maybe moreconsistently, was just keeping
them have the regs out.
This is what we need to satisfy.
(36:15):
You are here Like we havechecked these boxes, and you are
here and make sure they arejust intimately aware of what
all is required.
So there's like just no, it'sjust transparent to them.
You know you talked about it inthat like initial sit down
meeting, like what therequirements are about, how much
(36:38):
it's gonna cost, but then, onceyou start going in there, you
know doling out a thousand bucksa week or whatever it is to get
things done, get through it.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
So I had a notebook.
So for every my students Iwould always write down what I
taught on that day, cause youhave to, you know, keep the
records of.
You know you keep in your logbook that you flew with that
person, but I would keep, likemore detailed logs in there and
at the very front of their page.
I would have, you know, threehours a nighttime, across
country time.
They needed 10 hours.
(37:09):
You know the solo.
I had all that stuff and Iwould check it off.
We did steep turns.
You know I've had all therequirements that they would
have to have for their privateand I would check it off so that
they would see it too, like,okay, here's what we need to get
, here's where we're at rightnow.
You know, and this is whatwe're gonna go, and I would give
you know you'd have out gosh,now I'll get in my blank.
I was like a syllabus of here'swhat we're gonna cover.
(37:31):
So part 61, you don't have togo ABCD, you know you could skip
around if someone's stuck onsomething, you can.
Okay, let's skip over this andlet's, let's get this and we'll,
we'll circle back to that andwe'll figure it out.
But so I would show them likeokay, here's where we need to
get and here's what we're.
You know we're gonna fall thisstuff down here, and you know.
So that way in there, they knewthat there was a plan there for
(37:53):
them, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
What are you not covering for the solo Like what
are you, what are you?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
just so there's gonna , what would you?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
just obviously cross country stuff I know is not
being covered.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Well, to be honest, it's been like two years since
I've had a student I took from,you know, from like the
beginning on.
But there is a pre-soul testthat they're gonna take and
that's gonna go over that, overthat plane.
You're gonna basically have atest on stuff.
They need to know about that.
What kind of plane are theyflying?
So for our guys it would be anarcher.
Okay, how much fuel can youcarry?
(38:29):
How much fuel are you gonnaburn?
How much fuel do you carry?
What's the weight and balanceof that plane?
You go over weight and balancebecause you know you're trying
yeah, sure, the archer and allthose guys are forgiving,
especially they're soloing.
You know it's like, okay, I cancarry a full amount of fuel and
you know, get off the groundand wherever, and we're gonna be
safe, what the crosswind max isand things like that.
(38:52):
So you're gonna give a pre-solotest.
I honestly don't have one infront of me to reference it.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And that's just something you, as a CFI, make.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Well, no, I'm pretty it's required.
Well, you make it as yes, youdo make it as a CFI, but it's
also part of at least for us,it's part of the requirement
that they have to have thatbecause you don't want them to
get up in the plane and they'relike well, I didn't know I
needed fuel.
You know something stupid likethat?
Right, I didn't know I neededsix quarts of oil and I thought
(39:22):
I could fly with two quarts ofoil.
You know Things like that, justlike minor things that you're
gonna go over with them on apre-solo.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, pre-solo knowledge test is required.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Yeah, well, I'm sorry it is required because it's on
actually when you sign it intheir logbook that they took a
pre-solo test.
Knowledge test, yeah, Knowledgetest, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
His Dave.
The flight school has generatedthe flight.
That one for you.
That's not you.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, your own test no.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah.
So I mean, yeah, you wanna havea sample knowledge of things
that may be pertinent.
Like this is, you know, not somuch like solo cross country.
This is bare minimum.
There's maybe a little bit atsolo cross country.
In my opinion, that's when Iwould tell a student like, hey,
go ahead and start reallygetting serious about your
written.
You know, I am about to let yougo fly 50 miles, which may as
(40:12):
well be 1500 miles.
So as far as you're concerned,at this stage, so like now, you
should know if I'm about to letyou solo cross country, you
should have, for the most part,all the piece, Unless I've kinda
neglected something, you shouldhave all the pieces in mind.
You should be pretty wellrounded.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
At the solo cross.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
So you guys make your own curriculum, or are there
FAA requirements?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Well, there are.
So we have some guidelines.
There's part one to 41 schoolsand the school's gonna develop
their own curriculum.
It will be approved or acceptedby the FAA.
And then part 61, they justkinda give you a very general
outline of the things you needto cover.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
You need to cover yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
And not necessarily how you cover it.
It's not like lesson by lesson.
As long as you get it beforethey take their check ride,
that's good enough.
Well, so that's a lot easierfor the average person.
You know they can learn attheir own pace.
They don't have to redo.
A lesson Like 141 is good forcollege kids College age kids,
where they're like programmed tolearn and stuff but for the
(41:21):
general population, per 61 seemsto be a much better answer.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Yeah, so when we took our CFA, we all had to make our
own lesson plans.
Yeah, you had to make your ownlesson plans on.
And then the examiner would sayall right, teach me something
on steep turns, you know.
So I had these lesson plansthat I spent I don't know days
making and we went weeks yeah,days, weeks, whatever.
And then I remember when I wasteaching at Burke FAA, someone
(41:47):
from FAA came in and they'relike this is after I had my CFA
and they took two of us and theysays I want you to teach me
this, so we taught him that.
Then he goes look, don't evenworry about that.
He goes go to.
He's had us go to ASA.
And he says use these lessonplans.
It covers everything.
He was right, it had whitestuff for whiteboards on there.
They had videos, it was all.
(42:08):
It was crazy.
But like this guy came in, soyou guys did a good job, but I'm
gonna make your life easier, soit worked out.
Somebody has already inventedthe wheel, the wheel, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
They just want to see that you basically have the.
You're able to teach something.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I think, though, if anybody up there looking to get
your CFI, it is beneficial to gothrough it yourself and make
those own lesson plans, becauseit forces you to really just
break everything down wayfurther than you would otherwise
, even if you never use thelesson plans the exercise of
making them, I think, is verybeneficial.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
That's what you learn is, when you're responsible for
teaching somebody else, you getthat next level deeper, several
levels deeper than you wouldjust understanding yourself.
When you are responsible forteaching it, you just get a much
deeper understanding, I think.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And that's what that is somewhat designed to maybe
show.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, Jared Johnson's in this chat.
I wonder if he I know he wasgetting his CFI.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Robert just wants people to feel the pain.
Yep, I agree.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, yeah, I had to do it.
You guys got to do it too, butum.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I had to do it twice.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
You have to do the lessons plans twice.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
No, I didn't even make me do the lesson plans.
Okay, because I already held itonce, so I don't know if that's
wrong or not.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
What did you have to do for a re-up Check?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
right, Um, we did a short oral and then we yeah, the
actual check right did all themaneuvers.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Okay, so I think I think it was Jack Cochran said
he let his laps and had to do itand he was just.
Of course, I forget the comedy.
Maybe he's like, yeah, it'slike he didn't even study for it
.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I'm sure he didn't.
He just like, yeah,astrophysicist.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, well, I think you can just choose one of the
CFIs you have right and do thecheck ride for that, and it
reinstates all of them.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
So I think he just he's like yeah, I just did it, I
just did a multi.
That was the easiest for me.
Just read my MEI and thatactivated everything else.
I'm like he didn't even studyfor it.
I think it was Cochran orsomebody else did that.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, it sounds like a Cochran thing but so still
terrifies me though.
I mean there's a lot, but Imean, how do you eat an elephant
right?
One bite at a time.
So it's like you got to startsomewhere and we've kind of
covered that initial dialogue,getting a feel for what they
want, and then that's going toevolve what they want to do with
(44:42):
it.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
So, rob, did you ever work as a CFI?
I mean other than your sister'sone lesson that never got her
into playing.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yes and no.
I've gotten jobs as a CFI.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Okay, have you ever had a student?
That you sold.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
The places I was got hired at.
I was just you just kind of hadto hang out there all day and
wait for a student to come in,and it drove me insane.
I just I stopped going in.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
So that's kind of common.
That sounds about right yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
So I did the interviews and stuff with one
school.
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