EP07: Our Children. The Future.

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala engages in a deep conversation on how to discuss socio-political issues with children and the broader society. Special guests Farzana Nayani, a DEI consultant and author, and Claire Donovan Scane, an education consultant, join Farah to explore strategies for broaching complex topics like race and identity, particularly during pivotal moments such as the 2020 pandemic and the Black Lives Matter movement. The episode delves into the importance of authenticity, the impact of historical narratives, and the necessity of ongoing anti-racist efforts both in homes and educational settings. The discussion emphasizes the need for continued dialogue, accountability, and actionable steps towards fostering a truly inclusive society.

Key topics covers include:

Parenting and Education:

• Encourage children to engage critically with the world, fostering discussions about race and systemic inequities.
• Parents and educators should model learning, acknowledging mistakes, and growing alongside children.

Challenges of Anti-Racist Work:

• The burden on marginalized communities to drive conversations about race and the need for allies to share this responsibility.
• The tension between fostering broad public awareness and preserving nuanced, intersectional discussions.

Taking Action:

• Advocate for anti-racist policies and integrate these principles into everyday actions and systems like education and workplace culture.
• Commit to sustained dialogue, reflection, and accountability to make meaningful progress.

Call to Continued Engagement:

• The speakers encourage listeners to maintain long-term dedication to these issues, use resources like books and community discussions, and approach the work with curiosity, humility, and a willingness to learn from mistakes.

The episode closes with a call to reflect on personal growth and take actionable steps toward fostering a more equitable and inclusive society.

SHOW NOTES:

00:00 Introduction to FARSIGHT Chats

00:37 Setting the Context: Pandemic and Racial Reckoning

01:47 Introducing the Guests: Farzana Nayani and Claire Donovan Skane

03:53 The Cyclical Nature of Anti-Racist Work

05:11 Challenges and Opportunities in Anti-Racist Education

11:39 The Importance of Historical Accuracy and Nuance

16:34 Practical Steps for Anti-Racist Parenting and Policy

22:24 The Role of Accountability and Continued Dialogue

29:33 Strengthening Curiosity and Accountability

29:59 Understanding and Addressing Wounds

32:36 Resources for Anti-Racism Education

35:53 The Importance of Making Mistakes

39:14 Navigating Conversations on Race

43:27 Balancing Representation and Burden

48:35 Empowering Educators to Address Race

55:09 Collaborative Approaches in Education

55:55 Conclusion and Future Conversations

RESOURCES CITED:

1. Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome: America's Legacy of Enduring Injury and Healing by Dr. Joy DeGruy. Book. https://www.amazon.com/Post-Traumatic-Slave-Syndrome-Americas/dp/0985217278
2. “Brené with Ibram X. Kendi on How to Be an Antiracist” by Ibram X. Kendi. Unlocking Us. Podcast. https://brenebrown.com/podcast/brene-with-ibram-x-kendi-on-how-to-be-an-antiracist/
3. White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo. Book.

Episode Transcript

Farah Bala (00:02):
Welcome to FARSIGHT Chats, your guide to navigating
complex and important conversationson society and culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of FARSIGHT.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.

(00:23):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding,
growth, and positive change.
Today, we discuss OUR CHILDREN, THEFUTURE, with special guests Farzana
Nayani and Clare Donovan Scane.
When we had this conversation onJune 12, 2020, we were at the height
of the pandemic and the racialreckoning in the United States.

(00:46):
We as a society were questioningeverything, especially as the
murder of George Floyd and so manyothers were being discussed at
pretty much every dinner table.
Today we explore the conversations weneed to have with our children about
the socio-political state of our worldand its impact on future generations.

(01:07):
We discuss the importance ofbeing authentic and open with our
children, even if we are doingthe learning along with them.
The key is that our children must know thetruth of the world that we are living in.
As you listen, we invite you toconsider what world truths did you
discover later in life that you wishyour parents discussed with you?

(01:28):
How do we accelerate our own learningso that we can support our youth in
conversations about race, identity,and its connection to history?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of FARSIGHT Chats.
So I'd love to introduce FarzanaNayani and Clare Donovan Scane.

(01:51):
Welcome to the space.
And I would love to ask you tointroduce yourselves, please.
Thank you.

Farzana Nayani (01:59):
Thanks, Farah.
It's so great to be here.
My name is Farzana Nayani.
My pronouns are she/her/hers.
I'm on the land of theTongva people in Los Angeles.
I am a coach, DEI consultant, and alsofacilitator around these conversations.
And most recently, I wrote a book calledRAISING MULTIRACIAL CHILDREN - TOOLS FOR

(02:23):
NURTURING IDENTITY IN A RACIALIZED WORLD".
And you know, it's really excitingto be here because it's been a
conversation I've been having over timeand now we've had this burst of this
intersection of COVID and then civilunrest and some really great showing up
around racial injustice, specificallyanti-blackness and police brutality.

(02:46):
And I think that us coming here todaycan really be a way for us to look at it
in our own homes and through education.

Clare Donovan Scane: I'm excited to be here. (02:53):
undefined
My name is Clare Donovan Scane.
My pronouns are she/her/hers.
I am today centered in Chicago, but todayI am sitting on stolen land from the
Dakota people up in northern Minnesota.
I'm a third generation career educator.
I've taught and coached and worked asan administrator in the city of Chicago.

(03:15):
I'm also a mother of two whitechildren, ages eight and five.
The five and eight part feelsreally insane to say out loud.
And I work currently asan education consultant.
I work specifically in the literacyrealm, supporting communities who
are really invested and dedicated toaddressing literacy in more equitable
ways, mostly in school spaces, butI also work in arts and other places

(03:40):
outside of school that are looking atliteracy through an equitable lens.

Farah Bala (03:45):
So, Farzana and Clare, I know that both of you shared how energized you
both are to be here in this conversation.
I have to acknowledge that you havebeen doing this work, anti-racist work
with various communities for a very longtime, one to two decades at this point.
And we've had separate conversations abouthow there is a circular aspect to this,

(04:09):
where there is a starting point, and thenyou feel like you're making momentum.
You're going deeper in thework, whatever that work is
based on who the community is.
And then something happens and itfeels like it's back to 101 again.
It seems like right now we areat the start of a cycle again.

(04:32):
What about that seems like anopportunity that is energizing?
And as practitioners, whatabout that seems frustrating?

Clare Donovan Scane (04:42):
I can share some of my thinking about that.
There are ways in which I show up intothe world and in my various locations,
in my home, where I have children atthe beginning stages of understanding,
their place in space and in the currentracist world that we are in, in the town
that is grappling deeply to work towardsanti-racism and get everybody on board.

(05:09):
We might work as an educationalconsultant in schools where I
work in teams of teachers often.
Again, all of those people in verydifferent places, in a school system
that can be in a very different placewithin a larger school tradition that is
largely racist and has been since sort ofinception in our country and the work of

(05:31):
anti-racism in school spaces is alreadythe deck is already stacked against it
in some ways because of the structuresand systems and traditions of school that
has, that have been traditionally racist.
So yes, we have a whole load of people whoare interested in this movement now that

(05:52):
perhaps were not interested back in March.
That is extremely excitingand invigorating to me.
And I want to do everything that Ican specifically as a white woman to
onboard those people who are new tothis system, to this way of thinking.
So that they feel that they have aplace, that there's a place for them

(06:13):
in their journey, wherever it may be.
Even if it's at the very, very beginning.
And I also want to lift up the idea thatas a white person that may be my best
place because it's picking off some ofthe trauma and works of people of color
and specifically black people who havehad to on-board people and take too much

(06:35):
of them at labor for too many years.

Farzana Nayani (06:39):
I appreciate everything Clare just said, and as a person of color
I am a Filipina-Pakistani background.
And my kids are 7 and9, so I'm a parent also.
And what I'm seeing is thatthere are a couple wounds here.
One is the wound of this experienceof understanding police brutality and

(07:01):
anti-blackness in our countries andquite frankly around the world in a
very visceral way that we're seeingnow because of COVID and because we're
exposed to graphic videos and commentaryand more police brutality we're
reliving that trauma as people of color.
And along with that is the other wound,which is that black people, indigenous

(07:23):
people and people of color have gonethrough this for centuries, and it
hasn't been recognized in the wayit has been now for whatever reason.
And it's the two wounds at the same time,that are really plaguing people right
now, and I'm in support particularlyfor black indigenous people of color,

(07:46):
particularly black people at this time.
And, you know, it is helpful to haveallies specifically white allies
relieve some of the burden of the 101conversations which are happening,
which are really important to haveas people awaken on this journey.
At the same time, there are these nuancedconversations that I've been wanting to

(08:08):
have that I've been starting to have thatI feel like I've been making headway on
that have now been swept under the rug andthis frenzy of this like global awakening.
Which again, I'm happy about, but atthe same time I feel like I don't want
those nuanced conversations to get lost.
So for example, how anti-blackness can runin multiracial families or the anti-asian

(08:33):
racist sentiment that's coming up becauseof COVID and that link to coronavirus
or horizontal racism across communities.
So, my fear is that we lose the nuanceand the complexity when we're looking at
stuff that, quite frankly, people of colorhave been looking at for a very long time.
And so that pain andtrauma has resurfaced.

(08:56):
And now I feel like I'm on the frontlines of trying to support people
who are having to mitigate that.
Even specifically in corporationswhere CEO statements are coming out
around Black Lives Matter, and yetthe people of color who are in those
organizations are the ones holding upthe diversity strategy, and now are
doubly burdened with the pain and traumaand then now also trying to carry a

(09:19):
company's corporate strategy for it, forexample, the same thing in education.
So, there's a lot in the field right nowthat I feel like I'm still in and we're
still in and I'm kind of seeing where thiswill settle as we forge a path forward.

Farah Bala (09:37):
It also sounds to me from what both of you are sharing that there is more
vocabulary and analysis now and researchand data now than we've ever had before.
That is, to your point, thishas been going on for centuries.
But for whatever reason, thisseems to be that awakening.
Here's something that I've beentrying to process for myself.

(09:58):
My very first experience marching onthe streets was in December of 2014.
It was a very, very powerful experiencefor me in many different ways.
And I recall at the time mereaching out to people around me
to say, "Hey, I'm going for this.
Do you want to come?"
And I got a variety of reaction andwhich were not active, let's say.

(10:24):
Those same faces and voices rightnow in this moment are going right.
Very active, very energized, very vocal.
What I'm trying to navigate is, howdo we deal with this contraction
of patience from the new voices?
How do we create space for anaccurate analysis of history,

(10:47):
given this time of a lot of action.
And I'm not talking about thegrassroots activists and the
organizations and legislature thathas been planning for this moment.
I'm talking about this new wave.
And I'm also not talkingabout the children.
Because the children have beengoing through this through

(11:07):
their education systems.
And I'd love to touch on that.
And maybe this is that space toopen it up as well that the younger
ones have a lot more rooted groundedanalysis in the complexity of history.
Versus some of the educatorsand teachers and teaching
artists and adults around them.
And so, there is a part of me that'sconcerned that I hope that this

(11:30):
activation does not create an inaccurateanalysis that then gets passed on.
What are your thoughts on that?

Farzana Nayani (11:37):
There are a couple things going on.
One is that in looking at privilege andlooking at marginalization that sets up
this dichotomy of people being in painand people having power and the danger
is that we reinforce that rather thandisrupt it and dismantle it, right?
So now people who have melanin intheir skin are literally targets

(12:00):
right now for this narrative where thepeople are victimized or people are
in pain and people are traumatized andwhite folks have done this to them.
And as much as that, there have beenlayers of that history that is true,
and as much as that is true still today,I feel like we need to evolve and move

(12:22):
forward past this to a point where weunderstand there's an equity and not
cry the tears, but take some action.
Like, let's fast forward through some ofthat learning, and actually do the thing.
And I think that when we look athistory, it's important because first

(12:43):
of all, history is not told equally.
There are parts of history that havebeen left out, and so that has been
disempowering for specifically peopleof color, specifically black people,
specifically indigenous folks, right?
And so part of riding the ship on historyis filling in the gaps, reading stories
from people who haven't been publishedin a book or who haven't had their

(13:07):
oral history acknowledged with the sameweight and value as the written word, i.
e.
the "colonized white word", right?
So part of it is looking atwhat history we're looking at?
Okay, and then upliftingwhat hasn't been taught.
So, for example, the Statue ofLiberty, actually, the original

(13:28):
depiction of the Statue of Libertywas with chains around her wrist to
signify the departure from slavery.
But that was contortedby the powers that be.
So now the chains are onlyaround Lady Liberty's feet.
Most people don't know this.
So most people think of, Ellis Island andNew York and America is the land of the

(13:53):
free and immigrants; the American dream.
They don't know that and sotook a black scholar named Dr.
Joy DeGruy to actually advocatespeak about this widely.
She's the author of POSTTRAUMATIC SLAVE SYNDROME.
You should look her up.
She spoke about it publicly, and shetried to work with the Park Service,

(14:13):
but they didn't listen to her untilpeople started to mobilize and organize.
And then she was able to teachall their docents, and now that's
on the docent tour, if you govisit the Statue of Liberty.
But that kind of history andallyship between France and
the United States is gone.
We don't have that in a symbol likea monument that everybody knows.
So, therefore, we can't trust thetextbooks that we've been given because

(14:36):
of the power dynamics around who'swritten them and who's published them.
We can't trust the monuments we seenow that we see them falling down.
We understand what has beenvalued and what hasn't.
So literally, we're at a point nowwhere we have to question everything.
And the only way that we canactually move forward is to look
at everything with discernment.
That is the thing I'm teaching everybodyis we have to look at everything.

(14:59):
The written word doesn't mean it's right.
Actually, laws don'tmean it's right either.
Laws are being overturned.
Today is the anniversary ofLoving Day, the Supreme Court
decision around interracialmarriage being actually legalized.
And that was only in 1967.
And those laws didn't come off the booksin some states like Alabama until 2000.

(15:19):
That's not too long ago.
So we have to question everything.
And what that takes is inner work.
We have to understand thatwe value people equally.
That's what we want topass on to our children.
And that's the societythat we want to see.

Clare Donovan Scane (15:33):
So much of what Farzana said is, resides to me, in so
many opportunities for engagements.
I think that there are ways inwhich we want to be anti-racist, in
our policy, and the people who arecreating policy in our education.
And in supporting our teacherswho most, if not all have come

(15:54):
up in very traditional schoolingsettings, myself included.
I remember the lesson in middleschool when I learned that Christopher
Columbus wasn't a super great guy.
And I remember feeling completely trickedby school since then, and it's exciting
to see that is scaled back now on my suit,my children are learning that earlier.

(16:18):
But that's a generation betweenthe two, and it could have just
been a rogue teacher of mine thatdecided that they themselves have
been educated in a different way anddecided to bring it to the format.
It certainly wasn't in thecurriculum of the district time.
And then the other bucket of work,I think, is parenting, right?
Anti-racist parenting.
And I think you can have anti-racistparenting, but not anti-racist policy.

(16:41):
Having anti-racist policy,but not anti-racist parenting.
I had an opportunity last year, maybe twoyears ago, to be in a SEED cohort seeking
educational equity through diversity.
Which if any of you in any ofyour place and spaces have the
opportunity to join a SEED cohort,I strongly encourage you to do so.
Seeking educational equity throughdiversity is an opportunity to join

(17:04):
with a group of people in your communityand really unpack a lot of the systems
and trends and traditions that havegotten us to where we are today.
And in that space, we talked a lot aboutwhether or not we change hearts and
minds before changing policy or changingpolicy before changing hearts and minds.
That is something that I am cognizantof and aware of whenever I go to

(17:26):
different districts and look at thesort of mission and vision of that
district and how it aligns with thework that I do with literacy and equity.
And I'm struggling with that.
I think that we wait for hearts andminds to change, enforce policy.
I think we are making a mistake.
I think we need to move to policyand let the law help people

(17:49):
change their minds and hearts.
We do not have time to wait for people'shearts and minds to grow on the backs
of black and brown children who arebeing traumatized in school spaces and
traumatized in the way that they live.

Farah Bala (18:05):
I want to connect a few things.
Farzana talked about how doyou accelerate the learning?
Which reminds me of somethingyou had said Clare, in an earlier
conversation of how do you movefrom actor to ally to accomplice?
And I just love that so much.
And I want them to then tie thatinto changing hearts and minds.

(18:26):
We are currently in a time because ofCOVID where we have a lot of time at home.
As parents and professionals,the way we connect to each
other has significantly changed.
The way we are processing informationhas significantly changed our
relationship with ourself.

(18:46):
I can't begin to tell you the amountof people who are telling me how they
are currently navigating the sense ofself that they have with the level of
productivity and output and how theyhave to disassociate with that in order
to be present with the people thatthey cohabitate with under one roof.
So what do you say to the folks right nowwho posted the black squares on 'Blackout

(19:15):
Tuesday', who are "yes #blacklivesmatter",and might be wondering how else can
I move this needle in the space withthe people that I interact with?

Clare Donovan Scane (19:29):
I can start there because I feel like that is more in my
white wheelhouse of the ease at whichwhen we are filtered in place, when we
can sort of safely say, "Hey, dangerousfor me to go out, it's too dangerous for
me to do anything but performative waysof being, you know, an ally, an actor.

(19:51):
And it gets me a lot of likes, right?
It feeds the narrative that I amcomfortable with without having
to actually do the work that isnecessary to change my place."
And I think that there's probably a largepercentage of people, especially white
people who agree in theory that thingsneed to change and are very afraid of what

(20:13):
it actually might mean for them or fortheir children or for their experience.
To sort of NIMBY it orit's a little too close.
So , that black square on Instagram,I saw a meme, I don't remember who
said this, but it was something tothe effect of "anti-racist change is
not Instagrammable", that this is not,this kind of change is in your core

(20:37):
and you cannot see it on your face.
It is not registered by the shirt you'rewearing or the protest sign that you make
with your kids and put up on social media.
It is your daily acts and it isacts in which no one else can see.
And I think that there are waysin which you can push that needle.
You talked before about, Farzana hadthat wonderful example of Lady Liberty.

(20:59):
I think that there are ways in which asadults, we need to, any book we pick up
for our children, there's a backstorybehind that book, even a children's book.
I think that there's a way in whichwe need to, any story that seems
simple about ways in which black andbrown people have acted in resistance.
There's a huge backstory there that weas white people need to labor to find.

(21:20):
It is not hard to find and then sharewith our friends and share with our group.
I think that it is really importantto have an accountability core of,
people who will hold you to this goal.
Cornelius Minor is a wonderful, verywonderful educator from Brooklyn.

(21:41):
He talks a lot about havingintentions and plans.
And I think that this is a time where alot of specifically white people might
have a lot of really great intention, andthose are very dangerous in my opinion.
Intentions without a plan, we'renot going to move the needle.
That is that black box on Instagramand then moving on with our day.

(22:03):
So I think engaging with other peoplein your group to really think about what
your plan is, , and then holding eachother accountable with love, holding
you accountable because I love youand I believe in your intention and I
know that life is hard right now and,I want you to realize that intention.
So I'm going to hold you accountable.

Farzana Nayani (22:23):
My wish is that people just continue the conversation.
First of all, start the conversationwith someone else who may not be open
to it and continue the conversationlike don't give up on them.
Don't give up on yourself.
Don't give up on the movementand don't forget this.
Like a week from now, we're notgoing to see any type of hashtag

(22:47):
in any such fervor as we are now.
I guarantee it.
We're going to move on to the next thing.
There's so much moving in news right now.
It's literallymoment-to-moment, day-to-day.
So a week from now, a month fromnow, a year from now, a decade from
now, are we going to have this sameattention and focus on this issue?

(23:09):
And we just have to commit to ourselvesthat this is something we want to dedicate
in our consciousness with our kids,with our family, with our colleagues,
with people who we love and trust.
But yet it can be some of the hardestconversations that we have with.
So, I think it's almost too simple.

(23:34):
It's if we just try to talkabout it, the world would change.
We just don't want to talk aboutit or we don't feel we're ready to.
And in my book about two chapters init, it's not about, so it's called

(23:54):
"RAISING MULTIRACIAL CHILDREN,it's not even about the kids.
Two whole chapters are aroundracial dialogue readiness.
Are adults ready?
Cause the kids are, thekids follow our lead.
The kids are malleable.
They pick up quick.
When I was doing research for thisthat my kids were watching the videos

(24:15):
I was watching and they're like, "oh,yeah, the black and white people aren't
allowed to marry well, they shouldjust leave that place they're in and
go get married someone somewhere else."
It's very easy.
Ethics are very easy for kidsto grasp, right and wrong.
It's when adults don't go in thereand model the clarity around the right

(24:36):
and wrong because we're too scared toor we think we don't know how, right?
And it could be like, when we getback to going to a restaurant, do you
treat the person who's wiping yourtable who might have brown skin, the
same way as you treat the white waiterwho speaks English without an accent.

(24:58):
Kids notice that if you don't makeeye contact, if you clutch your purse,
if you hurry out of an elevator.
That's what I'd like to see.
I would just like to see somedialogue and behavioral change.
And I think as that permeatesthrough society the light bulb go

(25:19):
on, "oh yeah, that part's not fair."
or "this is weird.
Why are there only whitepeople on this show?"
Literally my kids werewatching IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE.
And they're like, "there's a lotof light skinned people in here.
This is strange."
I'm like, " it's strange.
, isn't it?"
You know, it's that easy.
Point it out and talk about it.

Clare Donovan Scane (25:39):
I think also it's pointing it out and talking
about it and positioning yourself asa non-expert learner as well, right?
That I think sometimes talking to kids,we want to have it, we want to have our
ducks in a row, we want to have read ourbusiness, we want to have our ship tied
and then we want to get in there, right?
And we are going to be the parents.
And I think that this subject you cannotturn away from this subject right now in

(26:04):
any media, in any form, in any way, shapeor form, and nobody has the right answers.
People have next right steps, and I thinkthat we as parents are saying, and this
is what I mean about having accountabilitypartners and accountability fine groups.
I don't know what the right answer is.
I don 't know why I cannot explain.

(26:26):
I am so far beyond my limit to explainanything that's going on in the
White House right now to my children.
They know.
When I cried for days after,in 2016, they understand.
I do not know.
I do not understand.
I can explain to you what I do know,and I can explain to you , why I'm
afraid, and I can explain to you whyI am struggling, and I can explain
to you what I think we should do.

(26:48):
But let's try it, and continue adialogue about how hard this is.
, Because I think if we make it look tooeasy, especially as white parents, if
we make this look like it's too easy,it is selling them a false set of goods.

Farzana Nayani (27:03):
Right on.
I agree with that.
Just one last thing, I think that justquestioning and curiosity is key here.
If I don't know the answer,but let's find it out together.
You would do that about anything,about astronomy or the planets or
anatomy or whatever you don't know.
So just take that same approach.
I really don't know, let's findout together, let's search.

(27:25):
And that doesn't mean call yourblack friend to ask them.
That doesn't mean, the person ofcolor is your Wikipedia, right?
That means you actually go and tryto find this out in different ways
that doesn't burden someone else.
So, I think that's beautiful,what was just shared.

Farah Bala (27:42):
I want to hold up the space of accountability and love that Clare is
talking about and Farzana talking aboutcontinue the conversation, stay in the
discomfort, acknowledge the not knowing.
I transcribed a section of thispodcast interview that Brené
Brown did with Ibram Kendi.

(28:03):
I literally just cameout about two weeks ago.
And Brené Brown, for those of you whodon't know, is a shame researcher and
has a bunch of books and her claim tofame was her TED talk on vulnerability.
And Ibram Kendi is a researcher anda scholar and his book, HOW TO BE AN
ANTIRACIST, has been on the top ofthe charts and is sold out, et cetera.

(28:27):
So they sit down and have a conversation.
And Brené Brown asks him,
let's say you and I are talking andI share a racist idea or I make a
racist statement and you hold meaccountable for that, which is fair.
You question, we dig in.

(28:49):
I am going to feel shame about that.
Most white Americans, or maybe Americansin general, feel shame about being held
accountable for making a racist statement.
And then she says, here's what I'mtrying to understand, being held
accountable for racism and experiencingshame around that, is not the

(29:14):
same as being shamed about racism.
This really impacted me becausethe work that I am centering
around is how do we make sure noone is left behind in this work?
Because if people are left behind, weare opening the door for divisiveness.

(29:34):
So what is it that I need to do tostrengthen my own muscles of curiosity
of not knowing of questioning withdiscernment everything that you all
are lifting up and holding accountablewithout the shaming aspect of it?
What are your thoughts onthis or how do you see this?
- shaming, accountability, doing the work.

Farzana Nayani (29:55):
So I early talked about two wounds.
The wound was around peoplehaving gone through it and now
viscerally re experiencing itand also not having been heard.
The third wound is when people are awarethat the pain that has felt, right?
The shame.
What you just talkedabout, the vulnerability.

(30:16):
That's actually another wound here.
So we, in any moment, have todecide what wound are we tending to?
Are we more concerned with how badly wefeel than that someone's being killed?
Right?
That literally is privileged.
Privilege.
So if I focus more on that, Iwas wrong and I'm sad and that

(30:42):
doesn't enable me to take action.
That's taking me out for 24 hours inthis struggle against something else.
Right?
So, we need to make the timeto process our emotions and
support that a hundred percent.
However, what I'm also sharingwith people is that where do you

(31:04):
draw your resources in your needs?
So if someone who's experiencing shameand vulnerability leans on someone who
literally is in trauma for validation,that's not the right resource exchange.
And if someone who's, I'm tellingfolks of color this, if someone who is

(31:25):
feeling traumatized, and in pain fromracial struggle looks to literally
a system that has done disservice tothese very people who it's harming.
That is actually not the place to go.
You might need to start your own companyor your own nonprofit organization or
have an affinity group and an employeeresearch group or your own support group.

(31:49):
Where you can get those resources.
So as much as I feel like there issome divisiveness in doing our own work
separately, I think we do need to do somework separately in order to come together
as whole people not have like brokenpeople here and broken people here leaning
on each other and then there's conflict.

(32:11):
That's my analysis.
That's not that's not based in anytheory that these books have written.
These are all great parts of the puzzle.
But I feel like we're resourcing fromplaces that are feeling trauma in
different ways, and it's probably not thebest place to resource ourselves from.

Clare Donovan Scane (32:31):
Yeah, I would say I agree with everything
that you just said, Farzana.
And I think I want tolift up this idea that,
if you are having a lot, if you areseeing trends the way we are seeing
them, and trauma for black peopleand people of color right now, and
you don't feel shame as a whiteperson, we've talked about that.

(32:54):
And if you do feelshame, let's dig in there.
Let's lean in to that, feeling of shame.
But let's put aside the white women tears.
The WHITE FRAGILITY is RobinDiAngelo's book, it's very powerful.
I encourage all of us to write peopleto join in book club around that.

(33:16):
Even if it's excerpts.
Some people feel that they don'thave, a bandwidth for an entire club.
You pick up that book at any place andyou will find something to talk about.
Or Dr.
Jennifer Harvey's, RAISING WHITE KIDSis another place that we can pull from.
I think pulling from texts, Farzana'sbook, RAISING MULTIRACIAL CHILDREN.

(33:39):
Any text that is really valuablebecause the text is there for
all time and we evolve around.
So I think that there's a way inwhich that we could look at texts
at the beginning of this journey,when we are on ramping, wherever
it is that we're on ramping to.
And as we grow, we can come backto that text and check our growth
and see how we have moved theneedle from where we first thought.

(34:02):
I'd encourages to read with pen in hand.
And write our thinking inthe margins of these books.
And I encourage you to dothat in children's books too.
So, a book that we're readingin my house, that we've been
reading for the last couple weeks,SOMETHING HAPPENED IN OUR TOWN.
This is a book about a police killing ofan unarmed child, and it's a children's

(34:24):
book, and it is incredibly powerful.
And we are, as a family, using Post-itsto put our thinking in the pages of
the book to then revisit this book.
Because I am sure that as we, as mychildren percolate on these issues
and grow as humans and grow theirhearts, they are going to come
back and revise their thinking.
And I think that if we can, again,create a community where we are okay

(34:49):
to make a mistake and say the wrongthing , and know that we will hold
each other up to fix that, that itdoesn't, , it's not like end, right?
It's not silence.
So the white silence isviolence ,that doesn't change
the thinking of that person.
So I think you want to lean in andsay, "you can make a mistake, here
are some resources and people thatare good to go to for those mistakes."

(35:13):
And as for Farzana said, it'sprobably not black people and
people of color right now.
And they think that if we as whitepeople looking for places to be an
allyship , and be an accomplice, evenit's putting ourselves out there and
saying, "bring it in, bring it in.
Let's go.
Let's talk about this."
Because I'm not going to sithere in my small zoom box and say
that I was never that person andsay that I won't make a mistake

(35:36):
tomorrow or in the next 10 minutes.
But I know that I have a group ofpeople who hold me accountable in
love and believe that I can be better.

Farah Bala (35:48):
I want to lift up making mistakes.
In human development, me and my colleaguesare bringing this into the space all
the time - the value of making mistakes,the essential nature of making mistakes.
Technology companies all overhave the term 'fail fast', right?
In order to create the next best thing,we need to fail fast to get there.

(36:11):
We need to iterate and iterate, getfeedback, iterate until it gets to
be something that works for everyone.
Zoom did that, right?
And I'm curious as to what prevents usfrom acknowledging mistakes for ourselves.
And we can go deeper into thetrauma, the shame, and all of those
different pieces, our conditioning.

(36:33):
What I'm hearing from this conversation,just the way we set up some group
agreements, there are also someassumptions that we start with
that might help lean in to do thework, to have those conversations,
to enable us to continue them.
And one of them is thatwe are not perfect.
We are not experts at this.
In fact, we are learning.

(36:53):
And that I don't know if I will havethe answer or have any response to
what is currently being asked of me.
The other is that it is okay to showup myself, it is okay to be vulnerable.
It is okay that someoneholds me accountable.
And the nuance to that is to what bothof you are talking about is have I done

(37:17):
that private work within an affinityspace of understanding the trauma,
understanding what that is for mepersonally, based on the family that I
grew up with, based on the influencersthat I had around me, whether it's
community, school, friends, identity.
There is so much complexityand intersectionality.
Speed is one of those things,especially in times of pressure.

(37:38):
Our biases are the most heightenedin times of stress, whether it's a
deadline, whether it's exhaustion,whether it's under the influence
of some substance, those are thetimes we don't have the clarity.
And our brain, the oxygenation, there'sa whole physiological aspect of it.
And I'm going to share this.
I had to compose a pieceof writing this week.

(38:00):
And phone has been off the hook, emailhas been going crazy and focusing on
clients, farsight work, et cetera.
And I wanted to acknowledgethat it was pride month.
But the urgency of the BlackLives Matter movement and the
content of what I was writing tookprecedence for obvious reasons.

(38:22):
And then once I'm done, deadlinegoing, I'm like, "Oh my god.
I did not...I wasn't thinkingin that intersectional way."
And thankfully, I checked myselfand I picked up the phone.
I called one person and I waslike, "Can you just call me
out on what I'm about to do?
Because it doesn't feel right."
And this person walked me off the ledge.

(38:43):
This is a true thing.
Decision makers, right?
The responsibility of parents, theresponsibility of being consultants in
this work and the urgency of this time.
Like I have to generate stuff right now.
And if we don't take pause, if we cannot,and I almost did that and I'm so glad.
I don't know what part of my brain waslike, "stop and pick up the phone."

(39:05):
But I don't know if I can havethat capacity all the time.

Clare Donovan Scane (39:10):
In education, we talk a little bit about
the importance of teachers.
We use the metaphor, putting theoxygen mask on ourselves before helping
the small children in our party.
That if we are devoid of oxygen, we arein trauma state and we are insecure in
a lot of different ways, then we arenot able to best support the people

(39:32):
who are supposed to be supporting.
And I think that there is a wayin which acknowledging that we are
all at some degree in some kind oftrauma right now and moving through
those waters in different places andspaces that can be really powerful.
And even saying that is saying something.
, Even saying, , "I'm not sure I'mgoing to get this right now."

(39:53):
I think that as a classroom teacher,one of the most powerful things you
can do is to say to your students.
"I want to talk about something that I didyesterday that I don't feel right about."
And that lesson is a watershed momentfor most students and learners,
and I think it changes the dynamicof the teaching relationship.
And I think that that I could carrythat forward to peer conversations

(40:16):
and friend conversations and colleagueconversations that we are not in
a moment where everything you sayis forever in time the way it is.
And so going back with humility andhonesty and saying, and I bring something
back up "that doesn't feel right to me."
I think it can hold a lot of powerright now in this very uncertain time.

Farzana Nayani (40:37):
I think the idea of measuring if I'm going to get something
wrong versus am I going to act at all?
That's the process people go through.
Should I say something?
What if what I say is wrong?
And then that could lead to inaction.
And that is something youhave to weigh for yourself.

(40:58):
There was a point in time in thelast few weeks where I was silent.
I was trying to ascertain what my voicecan be as someone who is not black.
What can I do to upliftblack voices, right?
Is it for me to stop and listenfor a moment and elevate others?

(41:19):
Is it for me to keep going becauseI've been hopefully being inclusive
of this conversation the whole time.
Is it for me to reflect on howI haven't been inclusive of this
conversation how I am privileged.
And so I feel like those things are likewaves we're in all at the same time.
We act, we learn, we pullback, we listen, we observe.

(41:43):
It's not as linear I think.
And it is a growth process.
I love the idea that Clare hadaround looking back because I
think we're making progress.
I think there is a lot of progress.
So how can we timestamp how we'vegrown along the way as well?

Clare Donovan Scane (42:03):
I mean, we're preparing our children but we're
also preparing ourselves whereverwe are for a country in America
that has never existed before, ever.
We have never been a , MakingAmerica anything again, it has never
it will not be anything the wayit was ever again, nor should it.
But it also has never been anti-racist.

(42:26):
It has never been even non-racist.
It has never been even neutral.
So to say that we are gonna get thisright the first time and not make a
mistakes or mistake upon mistake,again is, I think we just need to
say we are preparing our childrenfor a world that does not exist.
And we have no model ofwhat that looks like.

(42:49):
And that is exciting, right?
That should move us.
That should move the needle morethan make us fret and worry.

Farah Bala (42:56):
I want to lift up a nuance that we're coming back to again and again
that yes, mistakes towards growth, butnot in isolation of doing the work, being
able to reflect on wounds and trauma.
Because they have to go together.
Because a mistake without that levelof self awareness and reflection

(43:16):
and work has the capacity tocreate new wounds and new trauma,
depending on who you're talking to.
And speaking of that, I sent out thenewsletter for today's conversation
and I got a response from someonethat I'm going to read out to you.
"Sorry, this is harsh, but thereare no black people on this panel.

(43:38):
At the same time, I am awareof organizations that have been
sticking photos of black peoplewherever they can, and I'm watching
to see how long they stay woke.
I guess there is no right answeror way to do this, but optics
seem important right now."
. I'll tell you where my head went.
And I am totally willing to be calledout on where I am with this right now.

(43:59):
I don't think this is the time to ask ablack person , and also considering where
my community is active practitioners whoare needing their space and time, and I
am actively creating spaces of self care.
And so for me, this is a nuance.
The optics, the performative elementof it, what the visual of graphics

(44:25):
versus what is that conversation?
Given the time that we're in, if Ihad looked at the pictures and said,
"I need a black person in here."
just to get a black person inthere, that is performative.
That is the actor partof actor ally accomplice.
What are your thoughts on that?

Clare Donovan Scane (44:44):
I can speak as the white person on the panel that
it is something that crossed my mind.
I think Farah and I, we also talked abouthaving someone from the LGBTQ community
here being that this is the month of June.
I think that when I look at the paneland when I look at all of the boxes, some
of people's faces in still and some justnames, I'm hopeful that we are engaged

(45:11):
along a journey and not the one time wehave a conversation about this issue.
And then I'm hopeful that we in ourhumanity are looking at all of the
ways that we can get at this issueof being anti-racist and raising our
children in time of COVID and caringfor our community in all sorts of ways.

(45:31):
And that we can look and find alldifferent ways and perspectives and knock
those against our hearts and keep going.
That there isn't a penultimatediscussion or a penultimate panel
That we that we can learn from eachother in a lot of different ways.
This is one of many conversationsI've had just today.
And I would encourage us all to justcontinue to think not only wow, I've

(45:52):
learned a lot from this conversation,but when is your next conversation?
Who is it going to be with?
Or maybe it's not a conversation.
Maybe it's picking up a book by ablack author and really thinking about
doing some work and pay for knowledge.
And paying people for their workand paying people for the work that
they did to put their experienceto paper so that we can learn when

(46:14):
we're ready to pick up that book.
So, that would be my first thinking aboutthe lack of a black person on this panel.

Farzana Nayani (46:21):
I think it's a both and, I think you can't talk
about race without talking aboutBlackness and include black people.
That's for sure.
At the same time, black people areso burdened right now with requests
to not only do their regular jobbut to go above and beyond and
to support this conversation.

(46:41):
It isn't fair.
And so I'm going to do what I can torelieve some of that burden and take
the mantle for a little while andelevate voices who are able to speak.
I've had the same dialogue in myself.
You know I have this Instagramchannel, MULTIRACIAL MATTERS.
And I had someone who is of multi-ethnicheritage, who's black and white.

(47:06):
And he cancelled.
And I respect that, because it's notthe time to be talking about something
that you can't talk about right nowbecause it's traumatic, or you're
overburdened running your own community.
It's a fine balance right now.
We have to take in, receivethat feedback and also look at

(47:31):
ourselves like it is a long journey.
What are we doing not justthis one time, over time?
And acknowledging intersectionality.
June 12th, we should alsosay is the anniversary of
the Pulse Nightclub shooting.
It's a very tragic day todayfor the LGBTQ plus community.
And it's pride month.
So how do we do all ofthat and do it all justice?

(47:54):
We just have to be consistently doing it.
And it's not going to be anend all cure it in one moment.
I hope it's not because that would alsobe performative and not having any depth.
So I appreciate this as aconversation one of many.
Hopefully one of many folks onhere will attend like this is not

(48:16):
the end all be all discussion.
There's a lot of resources.
This is one part of it.
And I think it's great that we'retalking about this very question.
It shows that we're aware.
And the next question iswhat do we do about it?

Farah Bala (48:31):
As an educator, how do you make the decision to go in
on a conversation around race ifit comes up in a room and you're
not sure you have the environment?
This is making me think of aquestion that I've been asking a lot.
And this is for everyone, folk who'vebeen doing this work for a very long
time, folk who are just coming in - whodo we want to be in this moment?

(48:53):
This is an opportunity, right?
Our brains are designedto always be growing and
developing, irrespective of age.
As just brain science is concerned.
Mindset, however changes how muchwe grow or how we choose to grow.
And so who do we wantto be in this moment?

Clare Donovan Scane (49:12):
As educators or in school spaces we can wait for
the right time or the right monthto talk about groups of people and
oppression in a way that seals them up.
Like safe or pacified on.
And I would encourage us to beas intersectional as possible and
think about the understanding.

(49:33):
I have an understanding and I didn'tknow that probably a lot of people on the
call do or an awareness that everythingin an educational space is political.
Being a teacher is a political act.
Imparting information and knowledgeon people is an act of force . And
I think that there are ways in whichif we wait for the right time and
moment, we're missing all sortsof ways that our students might be

(49:56):
feeling trauma or our students mightbe inflicting trauma on other people.
And so I think that there are ways inwhich sort of racism and race is in
the air we breathe all of the time.
And so there isn't a wrong timemaybe to talk about these things.
The small ways and the larger way thatit affects us and affects who are

(50:18):
fascinates are in a tracking system or ina hierarchical system, the tests we take,
the camps we go to, I think that thereare ways of lifting this up from Farzana's
book all of the ways you can look aroundyourself and say, "how am I beyond the
black box beyond the rally that happensto be a neighborhood that I was free for?

(50:38):
How am I teaching my student and mychildren to be anti-racist and to say
that this is a core belief of our familyor a core belief of our classroom or a
core belief of our school or our district.
That's daily work.
And not work to be subjugated to amonth or a session or an assembly.
So I think that there are ways inwhich we can push each other to

(51:00):
say, how did we talk about it today?
And how will we talk about it tomorrow?

Farah Bala (51:04):
I want to dive into this question, as an educator I'm grappling
with how to make room for conversationsabout race when the organization I work
for may want a summer theater class.
What, what does it take we talkingabout having that conversation, right?
Continued state in the conversation.
What is this conversation looklike with the organization?

Farzana Nayani (51:22):
It's really about courage and it's really about
understanding that we have power.
And it's a choice of howwe're willing to use it.
And so you weigh out, "okay, if I speakup, maybe I'll be looked at a certain
way and then I could lose that contract."
Or maybe there could be an opening whereI could bring this and this could be

(51:45):
more powerful and this could be suchan amazing program that more people
would sign up because it is relevant.
And I think what we're doing right now isweighing those options, and having fear
that it's going to cause more difficulty.
When actually I think thatthere's an opening here.

(52:06):
And what I'm telling everybody outthere is that whatever happened with
COVID and the civil unrest and theprotests that is actually a source
for us to not even needing to askpermission anymore to bring this up.
It is a clear lane.
We can go ahead and bring this in.

(52:27):
Because if we're not, we're eithercompletely out of touch, right?
We don't care , or it's irrelevant.
And so when you say it's sort of inneutral terms, this is really what's
going on out there and we want tomake sure our program is relevant.

(52:47):
It takes the edge off ofthis being a civil struggle.
Yeah, just to get in the door.
It certainly is a civil struggle.
So this is the 'get inthe door' phenomenon.
That's like a psychological phenomenon.
You need to get yourselfget it in the door right.
So once you get in the door a littlebit because you have power because
you have privilege because you'reat this place where you're creative

(53:09):
and let's say you're an educator,you can craft your curriculum.
You can do what you can.
You realize then that you aremaking a difference with the
position and role that you have.
If we all did that, and realize thatif we took a teeny bit of risk, that
it'll crack it open more for moremomentum for more people to jump on.

(53:32):
The people who are silent andtoo scared will support you.
Or maybe there was someone in theleadership of that organization who
has been saying it all along and justneeded someone external to bring it up.
Like the ripple effect of ouractions are immeasurable sometimes.
So you try it, see how it feels.
And you'd taken a risk and now's the time.

Farah Bala (53:54):
As an educator, how do you make the decision to go in on
a conversation around race if itcomes up in a room and you're not
sure you have the environment.?

Clare Donovan Scane (54:05):
I think that teachers can make the weather in a classroom.
The teachers can be very influentialon the environment in the classroom.
And so I would say that trusting thatyou can engage your students and really
position their voices in a place of power,to be able to do some of that thinking.

(54:26):
I think our children and youth in generalright now are really, so many youth
that I know are really leaning into thatcritical consumerism of us, of adults.
And are critical of the ways inwhich we have positioned their future.
And I think that as teacherswe can really try to grow that.
And we started a list of agreements.

(54:48):
Having some agreements of the wayin which we will engage in discourse
with each other, especially whenthat discourse is contemplative
when, we're hitting some friction.
That is the zone ofproximal development, right?
That is where we're going to learnand holding a space for that.
I want to also reach out to teachers tosay that this work is so important to do

(55:09):
as also , with a colleague and as a team.
And reach far and wideto who that could be.
If you're the math teacher and that couldbe your art, your visual arts teacher.
Think about how to cross boundariesthat school spaces have made for us.
Cause our allies could bejust around the corner.
We really do need to go aboutthis work in a collaborative way.

(55:30):
I think there's a way in whichour country really puts up
individualism as the star.
That's what we're aiming for.
And I just reject that notion.
I think that being more collaborativeand collective is a way that we can feel
brave and feel able to do that work.

Farah Bala (55:48):
Clare, Farzana, thank you both so very much.
For those of you on our callwho have stayed with us for this
long, thank you for joining us.

Farzana Nayani (55:57):
Thanks, Farah, for putting this together and everyone for being here.
Thank you.

Clare Donovan Scane (56:02):
It was really wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Excited to continue the dialogue.

Farah Bala (56:08):
Thank you for listening to FARSIGHT Chats.
I really hope that thisepisode is the start to future
conversations you have with yourcolleagues, family, and community.
We continue the exploration of identitythis season with our next episode
- SELF CARE, A REVOLUTIONARY PRACTICE.
Subscribe now to FARSIGHT Chats,wherever you get your podcasts.

(56:31):
And don't forget to follow us on Instagramand Facebook @gofarsight, LinkedIn
@The Farsight Agency, and check outour website, gofarsight.com, to know
more about who we are and what we do.
Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better, and do different.