EP11: Arab Heritage in the Western World

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala explores Arab American Heritage alongside guests Karen Kmeid, Jamil Khoury, Jumana Salamey, and Matt Jaber Stiffler. The discussion sheds light on the history, identity, and diversity of the Arab American community, covering topics such as migration stories, self-identification, intersectionality of religion, culture, and ethnicity, and the need for better representation and data. The episode emphasizes the significance of storytelling in understanding and preserving Arab heritage. The conversation was recorded before the tragic events of October 6th, 2023.

| KEY TOPICS |

Identity and Diversity:

• Arab identity spans 22 countries and encompasses various religions and cultures with a vast intersection of ethnicity, geography, religion, and language within the community.
• Arab Americans identify differently, some by national origin (e.g. Lebanese, Palestinian), and others as Arab-American.

Challenges and Misconception:

• Persistent stereotypes homogenize Arab communities, ignoring diversity.
• Participants discussed the erasure of distinct identities, conflating Arab-ness with religion (e.g., assuming all Arabs are Muslim) and overlooking non-Muslim Arabs, secular Arabs, and diverse religious traditions.

Storytelling and Representation:

• The importance of reclaiming narratives through oral histories, museums, theater, and community advocacy.
• Institutions like the Arab American National Museum and Silk Road Rising serve as platforms for sharing and preserving Arab American stories.

Intersectionality and Coalition Building:

• Discussions of shared experiences with other marginalized communities, including solidarity in struggles for representation and rights.
• The importance of allyship and acknowledging internal biases within the Arab community.

Systemic Issues and Advocacy:

• The need for better representation in the U.S. Census to address disparities in resource allocation and policy-making.
• The impact of whiteness, colorism, and anti-Blackness within the Arab and broader immigrant communities.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Introduction to FARSIGHT Chats

00:29 Episode Overview: Arab American Heritage

02:02 Guest Introductions and Migration Stories

10:26 Exploring Arab Identity and Diversity

14:06 Intersection of Faith, Culture, and Identity

25:00 The Complexity of Arab Identity

31:41 Understanding MENA and SWANA

32:48 The Power of Storytelling

34:00 Creating Inclusive Workspaces

36:33 Museum's Role in Preserving Narratives

44:08 Challenges in Data Representation

47:22 Navigating Identity and Whiteness

50:04 Addressing Colorism and Anti-Blackness

01:02:12 Community Responsibility and Allyship

01:08:04 Concluding Thoughts and Future Conversations

Connect with our guests:

• Jamil Khoury | Founding Executive Artistic Director - Silk Road Rising
• Karen Kmeid | Senior Service Recovery Specialist & Global Lead, Arabs ERG - Airbnb
• Jumana Salamey, Au.D | Arab American National Museum Deputy Director and DEI committee chair - ACCESS 

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your guideto navigating complex and important
conversations on society and culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.

(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding,
growth, and positive change.
On today's episode Arab AmericanHeritage, we are joined by special
guests Karen Kmead, Jamil Khoury,Jumana Salameh, and Matt Jaber Stifler.
We want to clarify that this conversationwas originally recorded on June 16th,

(00:47):
2023, almost four months before October6th, 2023, and the devastating loss of
life and unrest that has occurred since.
On today's episode, we seek toshed light on the vast history
of the Arab American community.
We explore the expansive migration storieswhich make up Arab identity within its

(01:10):
22 nations, along with the many faithsit encompasses, and the uniqueness of
each country's history and heritage thatempowers the community to self identify.
We cover the importance of coalitionbuilding and allyship within and outside
the Arab community, and advocatingfor census taking for the community,

(01:32):
potentially providing them with resourcesto not just survive, but thrive.
As you listen today, we invite you toconsider what misconceptions about the
Arab community are getting dispelledfor you through this conversation?
And what is something new you'veheard today that you would
like to go learn more about?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning on

(01:55):
today's episode of Farsight Chats
Thank you so much for joining us today.
I'm going to hand it over to you toplease introduce yourselves to us.
tell us what you do and what isyour migration story to the West?
My name is Jumana Salami.
I use the pronouns she, her, hers.

(02:16):
I am the deputy director at theArab American National Museum
located in Dearborn, Michigan.
I'm also the diversity equity andinclusion committee chair for our parent
organization access, which is the largestArab American nonprofit in the country.
It's a social service agency, andthe museum is one of the national

(02:40):
institutions that functions underthis larger social service agency.
I've been with.
The museum since the inception in 2005.
Um, I've had various roles.
Um, uh, most currently as deputydirector I've been in this role
for about eight to nine years now.
Um, I oversee day to day operationsstaff support program management.

(03:05):
Um, Fiscal, a little bit of fiscal, alittle bit of HR, anything and everything,
um, that the museum, museum may needto operate in its best capacity, um,
I kind of have my hands in, um, mymigration story, um, I'm here by way
of my parents who immigrated fromLebanon in the late 1960s, um, due

(03:27):
to just economic Transcribed Um, likeeconomic situation after the civil
war, Lebanon, um, they decided toleave and come here, um, to michigan.
My dad had some relatives who were ableto get him a job at ford motor company.
Um, he worked in a city calledLivonia, um, working, um, in the trans

(03:50):
transmission, um, department of ford.
Um, he did that for about 48 years.
Um, and he retired fromFord motor company.
Um, and they planted roots in Dearbornand, um, had their, um, three out of
five of their children here in America.
My, um, oldest two siblingswere in Lebanon and came with

(04:13):
them, um, in the late sixtiesand we've been here ever since.
Um, so Dearborn is my home.
Um, I work at Dearborn now.
Um, I got married.
I stayed in Dearborn.
Now I have two, uh, two beautiful boys whoI also plan on raising here in Dearborn.
I'm Jamil Khoury.
I am, uh, the founding co executiveartistic director of Silk Road Rising,

(04:38):
uh, which is a Chicago based artsand education nonprofit organization.
Uh, we showcase, uh, Thestories of Silk Road peoples.
So, um, West Asian, North African,South Asian, East Asian, we use the
historic Silk Road, um, as a sort ofgeographic guide, also as a metaphor

(05:00):
for, uh, cultural interchange.
Uh, we are best known for live theater,um, and we also do digital media
and video plays and arts education.
and arts advocacy work.
We've been around for 20 plusyears, so this year is technically
our our 20th anniversary, and lotsof plans for the next 20 years.

(05:26):
My immigration story, myfamily's immigration story,
my father came to the U.
S.
as an engineering student, I alwaysthought in 1953, but one of my
siblings said 1951 a few weeks ago.
And so now I think there's a littleconfusion, but early fifties.
Um, and, uh, you know, over timehe, he, he met the, the, the

(05:51):
woman who was to become my mom.
Uh, and, um, and stayed and made,uh, a life in the Chicago area.
Um, on my mother's side, uh,her mother came to the U.
S.
in 1927 from Poland, uh, and herfather's parents, uh, in 1893 from

(06:13):
Slovakia, which was then part of Hungary.
Um, so I am, I am very mucha, a mixed heritage, uh, Arab
and, and Slavic American.
Hi everyone.
I'm Karen Kamid.
Uh, I was born in Montreal, Canada,and, uh, a bit like Jumana's story, my

(06:35):
parents decided to pack their thingsand move back to Lebanon when I was six.
You know, they had to run away fromBeautiful country because of the
political turmoil and civil war andthey miss their families, the food, the
neighbors, the mountains and the beach.
So, you know, as a young woman, Ispent so much time fighting, uh,

(06:59):
countless biases, the gender race.
sexual orientation, but asbeautiful and as rich as, uh,
the Arab world is, corruption isstill very much at the forefront.
So I came back to Montreal, uh,10 years ago to give myself a
chance to thrive, uh, withoutthese unfortunate, uh, limitations.

(07:21):
So I studied, In Lebanon at theLebanese American University
in international business.
But then I came back to Montreal anddid my graduate studies in management.
Now I work for Airbnb foralmost three years and claims.
But this year I decided to take a role,a leadership role in the An employee

(07:47):
resource group as the global Arab leads.
And, um, it's, this involves leadingthe group's initiatives and activities
that support, uh, Airbnb's commitmentto diversity, equity, inclusion.
Um, you know, it's, uh, about implementingprograms, events, initiatives.

(08:10):
and fostering partnershipswith external stakeholders.
Yeah, so that's, that's about it for me.
My name is Matt Jaber Stifler.
I am the director of anew institution of access.
Access is the organization thatJumana was talking about, the largest
Arab American community non profitin the country based in Michigan.

(08:32):
One of their institutions is theArab American National Museum,
which is pictured behind me.
Thank you.
where I've worked for 12 years, um, butI'm now the director of the Center for
Arab Narratives, which is a researchinstitution that facilitates and shares
research on the Arab and MENA communitieswith the goal of improving the well being.
Of the community.
So we work with any kind of universitybased researchers, scholar, uh, health

(08:59):
professionals that want to do researchon the community or with the community.
And we help facilitate that.
And we've been doing thiswork for about six years.
What we do with thatresearch is pretty unique.
We then put it on to our social media atTwitter and Instagram at Arab narratives.
And we try to take theresearch that's being done and.

(09:20):
Put it into usable, accessibleinformation for the community.
And, uh, that, so it's been a reallyfun journey to work on those things.
I also am a lecturer in Araband Muslim American studies at
the university of Michigan, AnnArbor, where I got my PhD in 2010.
Uh, originally I'm fromWestern Pennsylvania.
My mother's family camefrom Lebanon in 1900.

(09:43):
They were among the first, what we callthe first period of immigration, uh,
from Arabic speaking countries to the U.
S., which started in about the 1880s.
And so they were sort of solvably in thatfirst period of immigration, settled in
western Pennsylvania, were store ownersand peddlers and those kinds of things.
And then eventually when I grew up,all the Lebanese, uh, and, and my

(10:05):
family's Orthodox Christians, soall of the, um, Lebanese Orthodox
Christians in my hometown wereinto owning bars and taverns.
So, I grew up thinking, youknow, knowing Lebanese people
just owned bars and taverns.
That's what, that's what we all did.
So, um, That was kind ofa fun, fun way to grow up.

(10:26):
You know, the four of us on hererepresent the Lebanese diaspora of Arab
America, which is the oldest portionand one of the largest portions, but
it's certainly not, um, not all of it.
There's, you know, our, our community isextremely diverse and we're, you know,
we're happy to talk about the ways thatdiversity, uh, impacts all of our work.
Just listening to all of your stories.

(10:48):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
I'm like, There's this strong, um,Lebanese, uh, heritage presence
here, uh, which is incredible.
And thank you for naming thatthere is so much more to Arab
heritage than, than, than Lebanon.
So I, I want to start offwith this question, right?
Because there is, there is a vastness.

(11:08):
Um, the, the last time I felt thiswas when we did one, uh, Farsight
Friday in 2020 on South Asian identityand the South Asian diaspora and the
multitude of questions Communities,cultures, faiths that constitute that.
And it's very similar in terms ofthat vastness with Arab heritage.
So for those who are, and we havea question as well, so I'll just
read it out, um, which is similarto, to where I'd like to take this.

(11:33):
I'm interested in understandingwhat nations are people typically
from that leads to an Arab identity?
And where has the Arab diasporaconcentrated, specifically in the West?
If you could lend some insight andcontext into the intersection of faith,
geography, and ethnicity and cultureas, as how it constitutes Arab heritage.

(11:58):
You know, the best way to describethe Arab community is it's extremely
diverse, and it changes, it's changedmultiple times over the last 150 years
based on things that are happeningin the homeland, political tensions,
civil strife, war, but also in the U.
S.
based on who they're lettingin at the time in immigration
legislation, and it's not just the U.

(12:19):
S.
So I'll start with saying that,uh, Arabic speaking folks.
have been migrating all overthe world from Arab countries.
Um, and you know, the U.
S.
is known for its big population,but the largest population of Arabic
speaking, uh, people of Arabic speakingancestry per capita is in Brazil.
Brazil has a huge Arab population,um, and so does a lot of, of South

(12:44):
and Central America and Australiaand many parts of West Africa.
And throughout Europe.
So it's it's a really broad,uh, broad, uh, diaspora in
Canada, of course, in Mexico.
So I'm, I'm going to speak mainly aboutthe United States is that Arabs have
been settling anywhere in the UnitedStates where they could find work,
you find huge pockets in metropolitanDetroit, New York, New Jersey is a huge

(13:08):
place for Arab immigrants right now.
It's really hot.
For Egyptian and Palestinian immigrantsin New Jersey, there's some really cool
things happening, cool communities there,um, you know, Florida, Chicago, uh, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, Texas, all overTexas, Boston, um, so there's, there's
Arab communities everywhere that usuallycoalesce around a specific, church or

(13:30):
mosque that was established 100 yearsago that the communities built up around.
So it's really hard to encapsulatethe community because they can come
from any of the 22 Arab countries.
They can, you know, they can be like mewhose families came four generations ago.
They can be folks that, um, showup, Uh, you know, a few weeks
ago as, as migrants or refugees.

(13:51):
So, um, it's just to put it in a verybrief perspective is that it's very
diverse and changes all the time.
And it's, it's hard to encapsulate.
I identify as being first generation.
My parents, obviously were born andraised in Lebanon and came here.
I think one of the things, um, uh,you know, Farah to your point about
intersectionality of like religion andculture and identity and all of this.

(14:16):
I think, um, For me personally, somethingthat I noticed, um, within the Dearborn
community and more so, um, when I starteddoing some educational work at the museum
is that, um, it was really hard forpeople to separate culture and religion.
Um, for some reason, um, therewas like this assumption that

(14:38):
all Arab Americans are Muslim.
Um, all Arab Americans are from,you know, the same region, all Arab
Americans, um, practice things the same.
Um, so in my line of work at the museum,especially, and also in the community,
I think having conversations is tryingto separate, um, like the cultural

(15:00):
practices with the religious practicesand also uplifting and elevating the fact
that there are a variety of religiouspractices that exist in the Arab world.
Um, and there's also a varietyof religious practices, um, that
exist in Obviously, and in theWestern world and how people choose

(15:21):
to practice, um, the religion.
So like we used to get questioneda lot at the museum, like,
you know, how do you identify?
Um, Oh, you're Muslim.
How come you don't wear a scarf?
Or do you know, do youpray five times a day?
Or do you do this or do that?
And also, I think there was, Thisperception that if you're from the Arab

(15:43):
American community and you, um, you know,you are Muslim and you wear the head
covering that you practice the same way.
So we've spent a lot of time kind ofdeconstructing like what that looks like.
So that there's, um, A clear distinctionbetween like cultural practices and
religious practices, and also leavingspace for people to share how you know how

(16:09):
they how they live day to day and how theyexpress their culture and their identity.
Um, lastly, I'll just know, um,and something some work that
Matt has also, um, worked on andhelp probably get into a little.
Um, deeper a little later onin the conversation, um, but,
um, the whole issue of identitywithin itself and the complexity.

(16:31):
Um, so there are Arab Americansthat identify by just saying, hey,
I'm Arab American, but some whoidentify as their country of origin.
I'm Lebanese.
I'm Lebanese Muslim.
I'm Lebanese Christian.
I'm whatever, what have you.
So there's even this whole,um, uh, layer of identity.
And what does it mean to be Arab?

(16:52):
And what does it mean to be Arab American?
Um, which we've had.
You know, a unique, um, perspectiveat the museum because we do have now
the center of Arab narratives andwe also have a library and research
division that also, you know, looks atoral histories and interviews people.
So, um, it's just interesting the wholenotion of, like, identity and culture

(17:14):
and religion and the intersectionalities.
I just wanted to name that as well.
I think that religion and culturepiece is, I mean, you know, when
I think of my own sort of Arabidentity and Syrian identity.
It's so shaped by a churchcommunity that I was raised in.
Uh, which also Orthodox Christian,Eastern Orthodox, uh, and, um, the

(17:39):
whole congregation or most of thecongregation were immigrants and
the children of immigrants, uh, fromSyria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan.
Um, and so my sense of.
Arabness, uh, was really, you know,shaped by a, uh, a faith tradition
and, um, a faith calendar and,uh, relationships to other Eastern

(18:04):
Christians from, uh, the Middle East.
So it wasn't until I was like 13 or14 that I came to the realization that
there are actually more Muslims in theArab world than Christians, because
I assumed our, our world was sort ofthe Orthodox, the Maronites and the
Melkites, uh, and we would go to eachother's events and, uh, and so forth.

(18:27):
And my father was always very active.
Um, and, uh, and I find that people,kind of want to, um, erase the religious
differences between, or the religiouspluralism that exists within Arab America.
And, um, many people willproject a Muslim identity on me.

(18:49):
Uh, now I married a Muslim manand, you know, so I married into
a South Asian Muslim family.
Um, and It is often assumed that I changedmy name to Jamil, uh, and that I converted
to Islam, uh, and then I have to explain,uh, you know, that I sort of came as Jamil

(19:10):
and, um, you know, that there is this,uh, This Eastern Christian, uh, heritage.
Uh, but you know, I, I don't know.
I, I think there is this strangeresistance to, uh, anything but a
hegemonic understanding of Arabnessand Muslimness or that conflation.

(19:30):
Um, which, uh, you know, I, I,I, I think betrays the reality
that so many of us live, you
Having this conversation, this specificconversation is for me, for example, my
parents didn't raise me like religiously.
My dad's Maronite, my mom's GreekOrthodox, but we didn't go to

(19:51):
church every Sunday or whatnot.
But when I moved to Montreal and Isaid, I'm Lebanese, one of the first
questions that people would ask meis, Oh, are you Muslim or Christian?
I didn't know what to do with that.
Why are you asking me this?
Does it even matter?

(20:12):
And yeah, it's justfood for thought really.
And other things it's like, ifI don't like pork, for example,
and if, if I don't, I'm like,no, I'm not ordering the hot dog.
It's like, Oh, are you Muslim?
The little things like that, that showup in our everyday lives, that just.
Yeah,
I'm so glad that you know, you arediving into these what what I call

(20:33):
labels of a certain name sounds fromthis particular faith, and there
is so much nuance and complexity.
And movement migration movement, right?
And, um, if we in the in an effortto simplify an external understanding
we homogenize so much and then andwe lose uniqueness is Christianity

(20:57):
and Islam, the only two faithsthat constitute Arab countries.
That's one question and theother one is can you, we've
named Lebanon we've named Syria.
Yeah.
Can you name some andMatt named 22 countries.
I don't want you to name 22 countries,but can you just give us, um, what are
the countries so that I don't make anyassumptions and nor do our listeners?

(21:19):
Talking about much of North Africa.
And Western Asia.
So places like Yemen, Iraq,Syria, Morocco, Egypt, Libya,
Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon.
So, you know, those are the mainones we find in the United States.
It's quite diverse nationality wise.

(21:39):
Religion wise, you know, there'slike a dozen different Christian
denominations as we've been referring to.
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent practices of Islam.
There's groups that are indigenousreligions to Arab countries that
have been practicing their religionsthere for for thousands of years.
We've got, you know, like we'vegot Zoroastrians, we've got Druze

(22:03):
and other kinds of, and Yazidi,other kinds of religious practices.
That would be considered minoritiesin the US, but also minority
religions, even in Arab countries.
So it is quite diverse.
But and Jewish, of course, there'sa large historic Jewish population
in many present day Arab countries.
But yeah, most people break it downis like a Christian Muslim thing.

(22:25):
And as Karen's saying, you know,just because, you know, so religious
identity is big, a lot of people willlook at somebody's last name and be
like, Oh, that's a Muslim last name,or that's a Christian last name.
But in reality, a lot ofArabs in the US are secular.
And although they come from Muslim orChristian or Jewish traditions, they
don't particularly practice it anymore.

(22:46):
And so we have to recognize that.
There's, there's like, like, likeJamil is talking about the religion,
the cultural aspects of religion,but a lot of people also don't
practice it in that way anymore.
I think it's important, uh, the,the Jewish piece of the Arab mosaic.
And, you know, there are, thereare Jewish people from Arab

(23:07):
countries or Arab heritage whowill call themselves Arab Jews.
There are others who very much reject,uh, the That, uh, that identity,
but have a strong identificationwith a particular homeland, Iraq,
Syria, Morocco, Egypt, uh, so forth.
And, um, you know, I think becauseof the, uh, the politics of the Arab

(23:30):
Israeli conflict and, um, politicalZionism and so forth, uh, so many
of the Uh, us who may be Muslim orChristian or, um, have experienced
this sort of disconnect or divide withregards to Jews from Arab countries.
And I always, you know, lament that fact.

(23:53):
Uh, I remember the first time that a, aCuban Jewish friend of mine, uh, took me
to the Syrian Jewish shul in Brooklyn.
Um, uh, I, I thought I was In a kindof Jewish version of the church I grew
up in terms of the dialect of Arabicthat was being spoken and the way

(24:17):
people were interacting and so forth.
So, um, I, I, I've alwaysreally mourned the fact that,
you know, we, we all somehow.
Have been led to believe that a pieceof the mosaic, uh, has been, has been
severed and, you know, it's, it's sort ofa project of mine within Silk Road to find

(24:42):
theater makers and artists of, uh, Jewishtheater makers of, you know, what we
might call Mizrahi or Sephardic heritagewho, uh, are interested in joining
what we broadly call Arab American.
community identity formation.
Is the term Arab somethingthat other cultures and people

(25:03):
have assigned to this group?
Or is this something, uh, self identifiedthat people are proud to call themselves?
This is what Jumanah was referring to inthat the identity piece for our community
is really varied and just nuanced.
So Arab is an ethnic identity that isalso entwined with a linguistic practice.

(25:26):
And so we ascribe Arab identityto countries like, for instance,
Morocco, although many people inthose countries who might speak
Arabic would not identify as Arab.
They might say I'm Amazigh or Berber.
They might say I'm anothersort of indigenous culture that
predates the arrival of Arabs orthe Arab language to this area.

(25:50):
So we can speak broadly aboutArabs, but also recognize that
there are people who might fallwithin that category that might not.
self identify as Arab.
Some people would choose to use theircountry of origin, their religious
practice, uh, a tribal identification,something other than maybe the term Arab.
Um, you know, there was in the 1950sand 60s, there was a rise in this

(26:14):
pan Arab ethnic identity where peoplewere trying to, uh, galvanize around
a political Arab identity that wasn'tso much rooted in, in ethnicity.
That has sort of waned away today.
You know, in the U.
S.
there's a lot of groups that,there are a lot of groups from
Lebanon, from Iraq, from Egypt thathistorically did not identify as

(26:37):
Arab that don't, that in the U.
S.
they don't use the term Arab.
They might understandthemselves as Middle Eastern.
They might say, yes, my familyspeaks Arabic, but the term
Arab is not how I identify.
So at the museum, we use the term ArabAmerican only to refer to those people
who self identify as Arab American.
And, and that, that includes peopleyou might, And it also excludes

(27:00):
people you might think would be Arabthat that don't take that label.
So it's a, it's a fascinatingdiscussion and 10 years from now,
Arab might mean something differentto a lot of people as well.
So it's always changing.
What I know, which is This localDearborn community, which is
heavily populated with Lebanese, um,American, uh, uh, community members.

(27:23):
Um, so I, when I was growing up, um, alot of people from the, from the community
identified by the country of origin.
Um, so they didn't necessarilysay they were Arab American.
Um, they identified by saying,Oh, I'm from Palestine.
I'm from Lebanon.
I'm from Syria.
And, um, I found that.

(27:44):
This was to be true, even as I got older,it wasn't really until I got into the
museum and got into, like, more communitybased work and had conversations with,
um, with communities outside of my local,like, Dearborn community, that they were
using the term, um, Arab American more.

(28:04):
So that's just, I'm just naming thatbecause it's something that I've noticed.
And I don't, like, as Matt was saying,it shifts the way people identify shifts.
Um, um, but yeah, like growing up,um, like my experience with, with
identification was, um, peoplewould identify by their country,

(28:25):
um, of origin, not necessarilysaying that they're Arab American.
Like I, even, even theway I identify shifted.
So I used to say I'm Lebanese,I'm Lebanese, I'm Lebanese.
Now, now I tend to say I'm Arab American.
I have a similar story.
When I moved here, uh, I was Indian.
I grew up in India, but my ancestry isZoroastrian and I kept getting, you don't

(28:47):
look Indian, you can do a Muslim, right?
It was just that binarybecause that's India at the
time to the rest of the world.
And then I had to explain the whole story.
And so the same thing of like how.
Once migration starts shiftingof our own self identity as well.
And now I have this PersianIndian American, you know.
Uh, because this seems moreauthentic to me in this moment.

(29:10):
I just want to say there arenational groups like, you know,
Turks, Persians, Armenians, uh, whooftentimes are assumed to be Arab.
Uh, I, I cannot tell you the numberof times that Iran has been explained
to me as an Arab country and Ihave to, you know, correct that.
In the community of North Americantheater makers who are interested in

(29:34):
the stories of Middle Eastern peoples.
Uh, I, I think we've done somethingover a period of years, uh, that in
many ways is, is very revolutionary,uh, thinking about creating these
spaces where we could come together,uh, and, and hear each other's stories.
And I just remember the, the powerof, you know, being in a room where.

(30:00):
You know, uh, Turkish people arelistening to stories of the Armenian
genocide and, um, Israeli Jews arelistening to stories of Palestinian,
uh, displacement and occupation and,um, how we were able to connect on these
very human levels through, you know,through that, uh, storytelling tradition.

(30:22):
Uh, so, you know, we are seeing theemergence of, um, an identity or
identities that are acknowledging,uh, everything that connects us,
uh, without erasing The cultural,linguistic, religious, so forth, um,
specificities, and also, you know, thoseconnections to South Asia, you know,

(30:47):
those connections to East Africa, Ithink that the consciousness, um, is, is
growing, and that tendency to think ofourselves as somehow enemies or rivals
or, you know, that we are in, you know,conflicted relationships with each other.
Um, you know, many of us wouldlike to move beyond that.

(31:10):
Many of us would like to see,uh, this kind of connectedness.
I think that's a great point.
Is this like coalitional identity?
So Arabness is like people, especiallyafter 9 11, people were like, okay,
I don't, I didn't really see myselfas Arab, but now I see the power in
enough of us saying, okay, I ascribeto this Arab group, I'm part of this

(31:33):
Arab tent, this big tent of peoplethat might include me and the power
that that has, but then also broadeningthat as Jamil is saying to Mina, yeah.
or SWANA, which includes people that haveshared experiences and shared histories
and are also, and also a shared way thatthey're perceived in the United States.
So that it gets beyond ethnic identity andbuilds coalitions around, uh, movements

(31:56):
and, and, uh, different understandings.
Would you, uh, share whatMENA and SWANA stand for?
And then there are other acronyms as well.
MENA is, uh, Middle East orNorth African, and SWANA is
Southwest Asian or North African.
What
I'm taking away from this conversation,as, as y'all have been diving into the
complexities and richness of heritage,Um, of Arab countries is, um, how history

(32:22):
has homogenized so many parts of the worldjust to make it palatable for folk who
don't get it or don't want to make theeffort to understand those complexities.
And with homogenization comesstereotyping and with stereotyping
comes You people, right?
Um, so really appreciating therichness of parsing this out.

(32:48):
I want to move us to, um, and someof you are already talking about
this, but the value of story.
Each of you with what you do is upholdingstorytelling of the community, right?
Jamil very literally and explicitlythrough co founding a theater, Jumana,
you being deputy director of a museumupholding the stories of the past, right?

(33:10):
Um, Data tells stories, Matt, youknow, in terms of what you were
doing and then Karen, storytelling ofcurrent communities as an ERG leader
of the of bringing people togetherto, and you talk a lot about allies.
Uh, you know, and that that space of howdo we share of ourselves and where we
come from and what's important to us.

(33:31):
Could you speak a little bit about whynow more than ever sharing these stories,
upholding the stories, preserving thesestories are so, so important, given
the global cacophony that we are in.
I don't know if I mentioned this,but one intention I had for this year
was to focus on home on communityon my roots and to share that with

(33:56):
with like as many people as I can.
And so this role as as global leadhas incentivized me to to make
proactive steps to create createthis diverse and inclusive culture
that helps drive the future of.
organizations, not every organizationhas the space to, to have that,

(34:20):
to have that, you know, helpingcolleagues feel valued because of
their differences and not despite them.
And, you know, learn, learningfrom different perspectives.
So professionally, it's just, It improveswork conditions for for alienated workers
and help marginalized groups and remoteworkers feel feel connected through this

(34:45):
common cause or interest and creatingthe safe space for where conversations.
Can flow freely and everyonecan feel comfortable sharing
their, their experience.
Um, and I can bring my whole self there.
Like it helped me personally flourishand innovate and inspire me to celebrate

(35:08):
my heritage, my, the richness of my Arabidentity, the cultures, the experience,
food, music, you know, exploring artand, uh, and trying to find, uh, uh,
A bookstore or finding a documentarythat tackles this or and sharing

(35:28):
those right and just honoring artists.
That's that share their heritageand intersecting identities.
It just creates powerful work.
Like, for example, um, earlierthis year, unfortunately, there
was the, the earthquake, theSyrian and Turkish earthquake.

(35:50):
And.
It brought people together.
It, it, they let go ofeverything that they, you know,
separated them, if you will.
And so, for example, with the ERG group,we had a volunteered no sew blanket making
event where we all came together andwe dedicated time to help the survivors

(36:15):
of the earthquake in Turkey and Syria.
And we, you know, these blanketswere delivered to relief
centers and in Turkey and Syria.
And just, it was just so heartwarmingto see us all rally and support
this cause, you know, vis
a vis our allies.
One of the reasons why we feel like themuseum is important and why the museum

(36:37):
exists Is because we can use storytellingand personal, um, Personal stories
and reflections, um, in the museum andthat artists and community can tell
the story and we can give them space.
So, um, you know, back before the museum,uh, um, you know, uh, was in creation,

(37:01):
um, there was a conversation about, um,how to tell our story, how to control,
when I say our, I mean, the Arab Americanstory, um, how to take back our narrative,
um, from, um, from the media fromothers who were speaking on our behalf.
Um, and you know, there wasa call, a call in for action.

(37:22):
Um, a lot of community leaders, um,across the country who had ties with
access came together and, um, youknow, post nine 11 and started to.
Started having conversations about,um, what does our community need in
order to be empowered, um, to sharetheir story, to tell their story,
um, to take back their narrative.

(37:43):
And that's kind of how one of theways in which the, um, museum came
to be is out of this movement to takeback control over this narrative.
Um, so when the museum opened its doorsin 2005, one of the things that we love
to share is that we didn't have to.
Really go out to get stories per se,or we didn't have to purchase objects

(38:06):
or we, we didn't have to find ways tofill our walls and fill our spaces.
When we put the callout, people came to us.
They wanted to share their stories.
They wanted to to give us objects thatreflect, um, you know, how like their
migration story or their immigrationstory or their, you know, Grandparents

(38:26):
stores, whatever the case may be.
And pretty soon our walls filledwith objects and storytelling.
So our museum is unique in the sensewhere it's not like a traditional museum.
You know, you're not going to walk in andsee a lot of, you will see pretty art from
artists we commission, but that's not, um,like our permanent exhibits are more, um,

(38:49):
so of storytelling and object collection.
And, um, it's one of the unique thingsI think about our museum and then we
give the artists, we're, we're able topartner with the artists and call an
artist and commission artists, um, andelevate, um, Arab American artists, um,

(39:10):
to come by giving them, you know, spacein the museum to make it pretty, to tell
their stories, to give, to give theman opportunity, um, you know, to share,
you know, You know, we can't necessarilyalways be political per se, but the
artists can, we can invite them in andthey can use their art to address issues

(39:31):
that are happening, um, either in thecurrent state of the Arab world or with
current issues affecting Arab Americans.
So that's one of the beautifulthings about what we're able to,
how we're able to use the museum andhow we're able to also, um, offer.
Um, artists, especially Arab Americanartists who, you know, may have struggled

(39:52):
to be seen or heard or find space, um,you know, here, come, let's work together.
Let's share your story.
So, um, I think this art ofstorytelling, um, is sometimes
overlooked, but it's so powerful.
Um, I, you know, we have artists inresidency program through the museum,
um, which gives us the opportunity towork with different artists from, um,

(40:17):
Variety of mediums, you don't have tobe Arab American necessarily to be part
of the artist in residence, but yourwork has to reflect something that ties
into either the Arab world or somethingArab American and we give the artists.
Um, the opportunity to place make as well.

(40:37):
So we partner them, like, you know,they can go, they can work in the
university or with the high school orwith community or writing workshops.
So part of the work that they're doingwhile they're here is working on their
particular work, but also we connectthem with the community so that we
bring in the community and they can.

(40:59):
They can, you know, be part of the processand they can learn from the artists.
So, um, you know, and then just lastly,um, one of the areas that Matt is
overseeing is our oral history collection.
So we have two amazing oral, um,historians that are traveling across
the country and collecting stories andfinding those little unique stories that

(41:22):
exists about, um, you know, immigrationor that, you know, cool object that.
You know, we may not have heard about ifthey were able to go and and collect them.
So, um, I just wanted to also share,share that, um, you know, one of
the things the museum has beenworking on and just the importance
of storytelling and reclaiming, like,um, our narratives and representation.

(41:47):
Within days, uh, of 9 11, of the, of theattacks, um, Japanese American leaders
were writing op ed pieces that wereshowing up, uh, in newspapers across
the country, warning about scapegoating,and, you know, essentially saying, we

(42:07):
know scapegoating, and Pearl Harbor,and, you know, the incarceration,
and, you know, And, and for us thatwas such an extraordinary show of, of
allyship of, of solidarity of coalitionbuilding people reaching out and
saying do not do to this community.

(42:30):
What was done to us, uh, and I have oftensaid that Japanese American incarceration
lives in the DNA of Silk Road Rising.
We have worked on several projects,uh, with Japanese American
playwrights to tell this story.
Uh, and it has been, you know, avery important, um, through line

(42:53):
in terms of looking at how, um,how racism and fear and xenophobia
manifest as really ugly policies.
Um, so, you know, once again, that pieceabout, you know, solidarity, that piece
about connectivity, um, and, and findingour stories in other people's stories and

(43:15):
them finding their stories in our storieshas been so critical to the work we do.
We have something called the playwrightprotagonist alignment, which is that
the playwright and the protagonist orthe central character share a heritage,
they share a cultural background.
It was never meant to be likecelebratory work like oh it's you know

(43:39):
it's great to be Arab or it's greatto be Indian it was always about.
Complicated, complex, three dimensionalstories and giving artists the
space, uh, to not carry the burden ofrepresenting everyone all at once, um,
but to really explore, you know, theirown Truths and, um, and, and their own

(44:01):
relationship to, to culture, to family,to community, to belonging, uh, so forth.
You know, I live in the world of dataand how data does or does not represent
the community in the United States.
And right now it reallydoesn't in many ways.
And so trying to use.
what little data we have to tell thestories of why we need more data.

(44:25):
And, you know, I'm not justtalking about like, you know, U.
S.
census, we're talking about numbers of,uh, of, of, of Arabs and MENA folks who
are fighting specific diseases, who are,you know, incarcerated or drug overdoses
or any, any, there's all the kinds of datathere are, community just doesn't show up.
And so it's really hard to tellthe full story of our community.

(44:46):
So we, we advocate for better, betterdata across all of these fields.
But with the little data we do have,we try to tell the stories that.
Hopefully show why we need more andhow our experiences, our communities
experiences are unique and deserveto be, uh, you know, segregated,
um, disaggregated from the whiteracial box, which is where most Arab

(45:10):
Amina folks are placed in right now.
One of the crucial, um, initiatelegislative initiatives that Arab leaders
within the United States have been workingon for correct me if I'm wrong decades.
Is to get the communityits own space in the U.
S.
Census.
Which has still not happened to yourpoint about, you know, creating the

(45:32):
unique gathering unique data to makethe case for why we need more data.
Can you break that down for usas to why that is important?
What happens when there isno data for a community?
What does that imply?
Without the data, I mean, in manyways, especially to the people who
make decisions about funding decisionsabout representation, the community
doesn't exist if there's no data.

(45:53):
Yeah.
I like to use the exampleof, um, Dearborn, Michigan.
So Dearborn, Michigan has the distinctionof being the city with the highest,
uh, highest, um, per capita populationof Arab Americans in the country.
We estimate, because we don't know thereal numbers, because there's no data,
we estimate that the city of Dearborn,which has about 100, 000 people, is

(46:14):
probably 65 to 75 percent Arab, and weknow that since the Arab community is
younger on average than the rest of thepopulation and has more children than the
rest of the population, especially thewhite population, that the Dearborn City
Schools is probably like 85 percent Arab.

(46:34):
But if you go to the National Centerfor Education Statistics, it says that
Dearborn city schools are 84, 85 percentwhite, um, because they don't, they don't
disaggregate for, for Arab or Amina.
And so it's really hard to make thecase about the needs of a community
when It's just seen as all white.
And while it is true that many Arabs,uh, do look phenotypically white and are

(46:57):
white passing and in many ways, and Ialso identify as white because I'm only
part Arab that as a whole, the communitiesissues are and they're and they're, um,
Their demographics are distinct fromthe white community in many ways, and
we have the research that shows this.
It's just a matter of disaggregating,taking Arab identities out of
white, making their own categoryso we can really see what's going

(47:20):
on and where the issues are.
I
really do believe that Arab Americans andArab Canadians are positioned to enter
the conversation around whiteness witha very unique and important perspective.
Positionality or vantage point.
Um, and I, I would certainlylike to see more of that.

(47:43):
Uh, and how we kind of, you know,deconstruct this almost monolithic
category of, of white or, you know, orwhiteness and, and, and parse that and,
um, and really, you know, look at thepolitical projects that were so baked in,
um, to creating whiteness and, uh, which,you know, which, uh, So many Arabs did

(48:12):
not benefit from, uh, and, you know, whichArabs paid a significant price for, uh,
so just, I want to put that out there.
I'd like to see, I guess, us as acommunity be more proactive, um, but
at the same time when we're sort of

(48:33):
conflated with this broader category,it becomes very difficult to, um, argue
for our own perspective and experience.
Being forced to, to, to move out ofhomelands for whatever reasons, maybe
not forced, maybe out of choice as well.
And then, uh, coming to a new land, um,working through the assimilation process,

(48:58):
integration process, and then this,this space of, Again, a sort of erasure,
uh, a sort of homogenizing, right?
I mean, if you look atthe history of the U.
S.
census, there were two boxes to check.
You read the white or black.
And so the Asian Pacific IslanderAPI communities had to check white

(49:19):
for generations until they, they gottheir own space and the implications
of that were so many of the community,again, that mindset of, Oh, I'm white.
Because that's, that's what I checkoff and the connection to those.
pieces.
And every, every part of the worldhas some form of this, you know,
what we're calling colorism here.

(49:41):
Um, when our proximity to whiteness,our proximity to darker skin, brownness,
uh, blackness, and then moving intothe space of anti blackness and the
highest levels of oppression there.
Could you educate us, uh, for lackof a better term, or could you give
us some context around how this showsup in the vastness of Arab heritage?

(50:04):
This, um, idea of whiteness and how itshows up, um, if you look at historically,
you know, um, and I'm sure this affectedmany other communities, but just, you
know, um, we always joke around andlike the Arab American communities,
like Mohammed's go by Mike, um,Ahmed's go by Adam, um, Ali's go by Al.

(50:27):
So even in the, in the name.
Um, uh, you know, people, I think whenthey first came over, um, and, you know,
they saw, you know, they didn't want to betreated differently, or they saw that if
you looked a different way, or if you hada name, um, that was hard to pronounce, it
may have limited you from, um, you know,reaching a higher position or getting

(50:51):
called in for an interview or, you know,Just like in the workplace, you know, uh,
people who are lighter skin, maybe gotbetter positions or treated differently.
Um, so just going back againto like, um, personal example.
So, when my dad came, um, uh, over fromLebanon and started working at Ford
motor company, his name is Ahmed, but.

(51:13):
When his foreman or somebody would callthe house or when he would take us,
you know, once, uh, I remember likegrowing up once a year, they did like
open house and you could bring yourfamilies and show them like where you
worked and meet your, you know, show themthe, the ins and out of, of, of Ford.
Um, nobody called them,everyone called them Mike.

(51:35):
Um, and he called himself Mikebecause he was like, Oh, people
can't pronounce my name anyways.
And it's funny because I thinkit's true for all immigrants.
Like when you come here andyou're trying to assimilate, you
want it to be easier for others.
So like changing the name wasn't only.
A way that whiteness showed up, but itwas also to make it easier for people

(51:57):
who couldn't speak the language to sayyour name because, you know, again,
whiteness showing up, you don't wantthem, um, you know, you want to make it
easier for them to communicate with you.
So how do you do that?
You change your name oryour man, you know, your.
just your mannerisms or you don't useyour language or whatever the case
may be to make it easier for others.

(52:17):
Um, so, you know, that's just anexample going up of how I saw my, in my
community, like whiteness showing up.
And then also, um, Again, there wasn'tthis category of brown when I was,
when I was coming up, it was like,you're either black or you're white.
And, you know, in the communityblack, you know, it was like, Oh,

(52:39):
you don't want to be associated withbeing darker skinned or being black.
You wanted to be associatedwith being white.
Cause again, this is howsystematically how whiteness is and
it wasn't, I think until I started.
Diving into some DEI work andgetting familiar with, um, you
know, communities of color who don'tnecessarily, um, identify as black,

(53:05):
but are definitely not white, suchas the Arab American community.
Um, this, you know, this colorism ofbrown, um, and even, you know, as I
was working through that personally,um, I had a difficult time because
I've never used that label as brown.
So I started thinking, like, whatis my responsibility by saying.
That I belong to, you know,uh, the brown community.

(53:28):
What does that mean in the way I show upfor not only the brown community, but the
way I show up for the black community,I'm lighter complected in terms of
like a lot of, um, uh, Arab Americans.
So I never would look at my skinnecessarily and say like, I'm brown.
I was like, Oh yeah, I'm lighter.

(53:49):
I'm white.
Um, and then, you know, again, whenI started this work was brought to
my attention by, um, some 1 of thefacilitators I was working with.
It's like, no, you're not white.
You're definitely brown.
So, um, I was pointing to a brown affinitygroup, um, and we were talking about.
You know, systematic racism.
And again, how it shows upand you might not realize it.

(54:12):
And I, that's what I'm not whiteis when people around me, um, they
identified as as brown were in thisaffinity group and talking about their
experiences and their identities.
And I was like, yes, this is me.
I'm definitely not white.
Um, And just lastly, I just wanted to addis, um, you know, again, because I work

(54:36):
in the museum and we're the only museum inthe country that focuses on the elevating
the Arab American, um, story and documentdocumenting the Arab American story.
I think when the museum first opened, um.
The landscape was a bit different.
Um, the communities that weengaged with were different.

(54:59):
So we had a lot of communities comingthrough that were from Lebanon or Syria
or from, like, you know, what Mattrefers to as a referred to earlier
as, like, the Lava area, um, the last,like, 5 to 8 years where we started
seeing more communities show up fromSudan, Somalia, the North African
region, and they actually, You know,um, we're wondering, like, where is,

(55:25):
we don't see ourselves in your museum.
Um, we're Arab.
We also identify as black.
We're, um, Afro Arab.
That's a term that they, that,um, was introduced to me through
talking, you know, with communities.
Now we're trying to be more intentional,um, and getting those stories and calling

(55:45):
those communities in and having them feel.
That this is a place for them,because again, we were, we have been
criticized for being, you know, tooLevant or not sharing the story of
the black experience in the museum.
Um, so we definitely want tobe more inclusive and bring
those stories in as well.
So colorism even shows up withinthe Arab community because of.

(56:10):
The, the geographic regions, andbecause you could be from the North
African region, you could be from,like, the Levant area from other parts.
Like, my sister's has blue eyesand light brown hair and fair skin.
Um, and then, like, I have, mybrother's has more of, like, the olive
complexion and the darker hair color.

(56:31):
So, even within our family, um,the families, you know, it changes.
I have a funny
anecdote that uh, Jumana made me thinkof because of the whole name thing.
Um, in the last year I've had multipleinstances where someone was asking me my,
my name and I was like, my name is Karenand, and they're like, No, no, it's not.

(56:57):
I was like, what do you mean?
They're like, you, you don'tlook like your name's Karen.
It's like you have darkercomplexion and curly hair.
And so, like, what do you,what do you want my name?
Like, what is my name?
Is it you want my name to be Amira?
Like, it's just on the flip side of.

(57:18):
Um, people who have like an Arabname, maybe hard to pronounce for,
for Westerners, and then, you know,Mohammed, Mike, and then Karen, but
I'm Arabic, like, I love, I, I'mArab, and I speak Arabic, and they're
like, they just didn't believe me.
It was hard for people tobelieve that I had this name.

(57:41):
And it just made me think, you know, likepeople's eyes and people's perspectives
and how they see us is important.
And then in the U.
S., the name Karen has takenon a whole other Oh yeah.
Oh, I'm not a

(58:04):
Karen, I promise.
That's a, that's a whole other story.
I
cannot tell you the number of timesI have told someone my name and they
have repeated it back to me as Jimmy.
Oh, Corey.
Uh, so they hear this very Irish name.

(58:26):
And I, it's, it's happenedfor years completely, you
know, unrelated situations.
This was the summer beforeI started grad school.
I had signed up with some temp agencyin Chicago and they sent me to a bank.
Um, and whoever, the person who was, Iguess, the supervisor for this, Program

(58:51):
with the, uh, with the temps, uh, cameinto the whatever waiting room to meet me.
And she said, Oh, thank God.
We were so worried you were black.
She, you know, had no,no problem saying that.

(59:11):
I at the first break of the day called thetemp agency and I said, I think you'd need
to know that this is how I was greeted.
Um, and it was like tremendousrelief and, you know, they were all
very happy that, you know, um, and,uh, and the agency just said, Oh
yeah, they seem to really like you.

(59:33):
Uh, so it completely went over.
Um, but that, uh, That sort of assumptionwith names that gets made, uh, and
I have to tell you, I, I also had asituation many years ago when I was
trying to, um, to get an apartmentand, you know, I was using my name

(59:56):
and I wasn't getting, um, calls back.
And then I change, I, I, I, I use thename Jim or Jimmy or James, which I don't
like doing because it's not my name.
And then people would call right away.
And I really don't thinkthat was anti Arab.

(01:00:17):
I think that was anti Black.
Uh, I mean, I, I, I could bewrong, but that was, yeah.
So I, I have, I have experienced that,you know, in, in a number of ways.
So friends, can I ask every, youknow, having grown up where I did,
every community has some form of this.

(01:00:40):
Can you speak to a little bitaround what is the responsibility?
And also I want to acknowledgethat over here, we have a
light skinned representation.
We have a heavy Lebanon representation.
We, as, as just representation onthis, uh, you know, list of guest
speakers, we don't have all of that.
Arab heritage represented and andspecifically, we don't have the countries

(01:01:04):
represented that that are darker skin.
So it's really important to Wealways say in our work that we do
with clients to always considerwho's not in the room, who's not
being considered, whose perspectiveshould we add into this conversation.
So this is that moment.
Given where the United States is,where the West is, where we're
going in global conversation aroundbelonging and inclusion, and what does

it take to truly have https (01:01:27):
otter.
ai Not of course, speaking for allcommunities, but specifically for, for
Arab communities, for your perspective,because you've taken on a leadership
role of responsibility to upholdheritage, to uphold storytelling, right?
So can you speak to, to that piecewith, as an immigrant community

(01:01:52):
in a land of immigrants in theWest, what is the responsibility
to, um, in, in this vein of.
colorism, proximity towhiteness, anti blackness.
What is the community's responsibility?
Where do we need to go further?
You know, I'm a historian by training andI always, even though I work a lot with

(01:02:16):
like public health data right now, I,I think that this understanding of, you
know, There's nothing new under the sun.
The things that community are dealingwith now have been going on for, you
know, well over a century, uh, Trump'sMuslim ban was not the first time that
our community was barred from immigrating.
Um, it's not the first timethat Muslims were kept out of U.

(01:02:39):
S.
civil participation.
So, You know, always bringing into theroom that this has been going on for a
long time and we need to be aware of thathistory, and then definitely what Jamil
was saying about, you know, the Japanesecommunity, who's always been a close ally
of the Arab and Muslim community in the U.
S.
Is knowing how our fight intersectswith other people's fights and we

(01:03:01):
need to show up for other communitiesor we can't expect them to come to
us when when we need assistance.
So, um, you know, making sure our ownhistory is understood and what that
means for our, our understanding alsoof how our current mode is in relation
to other communities and their fights.
We also can name, um, internallythat racism exists or anti blackness

(01:03:26):
exists or anti whatever exists.
Being from the Arabworld, it's very complex.
Um, I think, like, even within,like, the Muslim community, there's
a division between, like, um, Sunniand Shia, or I'm sure exists also
within the Christian denominations.
And there's also some, you know, um,biases and, um, racism that exists.

(01:03:50):
That can exist even within our own,um, our own communities that I think
we need to be comfortable addressing.
We need to have those.
We need to be uncomfortable to getcomfortable and having those discussions
and name, um, what, you know, whatexists within our communities.
And that's kind of like.
My personal, like, what happened,like, with my personal DEI trajectory

(01:04:13):
was like, I had to get comfortablenaming, um, you know, things that
were happening in my life and thingsthat I was carrying and, you know,
intergenerational trauma and like allof that stuff that gets passed on.
And then from there, I was unableto figure out how I can show up
as Masset for and be an ally.

(01:04:35):
Because, you know, you can't like forme personally, I didn't feel I could
be an ally ally or show up for othercommunities when I didn't understand
what was going on within my own andtry to figure out how to get people
to have these difficult conversations,which, um, you know, they're difficult.
And nobody wants to admit like they were,you know, they have these biases or.

(01:05:00):
Racism or we're carrying theinter, you know, intergenerational
traumas or, or happenings.
I think once we're able to have thoseconversations and call, I, I, I really
like, you know, this idea of callingin people versus calling out, like,
let's, let's call each other in and, andfigure out, um, and then we can figure,

(01:05:22):
you know, um, have the conversationsabout being allies for others.
And what does that look like?
Because again, we can't expect.
You know, people to protestand hit the streets for us if
we're not doing it for others.
The showing up part that, you know, has,has been mentioned is so, uh, important,
you know, and even, even if we're notfully versed, I mean, this is something

(01:05:45):
we've certainly learned in sort ofputting together this Silk Road identity
of this, you know, vast territories andcontiguity and peoples who are somehow
connected, um, is, is that it does matter.
Uh, when, you know, our, our, ourbodies are in, in the room, and, um,

(01:06:07):
and I, I think that when people knowothers have your back or we have their
back, um, it, it, it does manifest ascollaboration, as coalition, as, uh,
and there's so much out there tryingto pin us against each other and divide

(01:06:28):
us, and, um, You know, undermine.
And so I, I, I think that that just beingpart of our consciousness, like, well,
this is how we do our work and we aregoing to be mindful of, of, of people who
are suffering more than we are and, youknow, who are at a greater disadvantage.

(01:06:49):
As I'm learning about myself and aboutthe importance of like my name and the
importance of how I want to carry myself.
I wanted to make sure like Igave my boys, um, who now I say
I'm a mother of two brown boys.
Um, uh, you know, to be proudof where they come from.
So I named my children,um, Kareem and Ziad.

(01:07:12):
And I wanted to make sure that they hadnames that also, you know, speak to, to,
to their, their, their culture, theirreligion, and that they can be proud of.
So that's something also I feelI've learned along the way with my
identity, um, journey, um, as, asthe importance of that too, is what

(01:07:35):
we're, what we're, the work we're doingnow is going to impact our children.
We got to lead the world slightly better.
So that they could have fun.
As much as possible.
The fact that identity is fluid, that itis evolving and shifting and changing,
depending on our lived experience, wherewe end up in the world, who is around
us, what our influences are, right?

(01:07:57):
Um, so thank you for, for,um, putting that in such a
beautiful personal perspective.
I just want to say thank you to eachof you, Matt, Jamil, Karen, Jumana.
So, so rich and there's so much lovefor, for this conversation in the chat,
you know, people shouting out the deeplevels of intersectionality and nuance
and complexity that, has been surfaced.

(01:08:20):
Thank you all again.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I really hope that thisepisode is the start to future
conversations you have with yourcolleagues, teams, and community.
We continue the exploration ofidentity this season with our next
episode, Indigenous Leadership.

(01:08:41):
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