Episode Transcript
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Welcome to Farsight Chats, your guideto navigating complex and important
conversations on society and culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.
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Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding,
growth, and positive change.
Our topic today is IndigenousLeadership with special guests, Tai
Defoe, Sarah Echo Hawk, and Greg Hill.
This conversation was originallyrecorded on November 17th, 2023,
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one week before Indigenous Day ofMourning in the United States, commonly
also known as Thanksgiving Day.
This was our effort to lift up thevoices of some inspiring Indigenous
leaders in North America whoare intentionally weaving in the
principles of their heritage andancestry into their own leadership.
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We explore the qualities ofcollective, shared leadership and how
it differs starkly from structuresthat hold up capitalist definitions
of work and markers of success.
We also reflect on the impactof Indigenous youth, our future
leaders, and how important itis to listen to their voices and
perspectives to guide us towards amore balanced way of life and work.
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As you listen in, we invite you toconsider what can you learn about
leadership from Indigenous history?
How much did your school books talk aboutIndigenous history and its global erasure?
And if you are in a leadershiprole right now, what does shared
leadership look like for you?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
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today's episode of Farsight Chats.
Thank you so much for joiningus for this conversation.
I'm going to hand it over to youto please introduce yourselves.
Nala, hello.
Sarah Echo Hawk.
I'm a citizen of thePawnee Nation of Oklahoma.
My pronouns are she, her, hers.
And I am currently calling in fromthe Boulder, Colorado area, which
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is the traditional homelands ofthe Cheyenne and Arapaho nations.
And I have been the leader atthe American Indian Science and
Engineering Society for about a decade.
My name is Greg Hill.
I am, living in, uh, unceded,unsurrendered Algonquin territory.
In what's now known as Canada,what's now known as Chelsea,
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what's now known as Quebec.
My, I'm a Mohawk Gondwanapehaga, uh, andFrench, through my, through my parents.
And a member of the Six Nationsof Grand River Territory, which is
in, uh, what we now call Ontario.
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That word in itself is, uh,actually an Indigenous word.
It comes from Skunet Perillo, whichmeans, uh, the great clear water.
And I'm an artist.
I have a background in, in curating.
I've, uh, Uh, so I kind of considermyself an artist who has done a lot
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of curating and now I do consultingwork and I continue to be an
artist and do that more and more.
I'm very humbled to be here andI'll say, Boo to the Jew, everyone.
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So I'll just, um, say hellohere, citizen of the ish Nation
and, um, enrolled in Oneida.
My mom's Oneida, my dad's Anishinaabe,and I'm also Eagle Clan, coming from
the Lake of the Torches peoples in,um, northern Wisconsin but currently
residing in Lenapehoking, um, over inHipster Brooklyn Matahata, New York City,
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on lands of the, um, Lenape peoples.
And let's see, I primarily identify asyou know, I'm co founder of Indigenous
Direction, Uber's a fast horse, aswell as, um, you know, I'm an artist
that is creating a, a kaleidoscopeof interconnections between activism,
art you know, science, technologies,and I guess, fostering reciprocal
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relations among peoples and beings.
And I'll pause there for our conversation.
So grateful to be here.
Thank you.
Joining you from the unceded land ofthe indigenous people of Lenape and
Canarsie, now called Astoria Queens.
Why do you do what you do?
I think it's, you know, out of asense of responsibility, right?
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You learn that you, you have gifts andyou're responsible for honoring those
gifts, for doing the, for doing the thingsthat can bring, You know, not only light
and joy to yourself, but, but to others.
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So I didn't know what thatwas for a lot of my life.
I knew I was always encouraged asan artist you know, to draw, to,
you know, first to trace things outof coloring books and then draw.
And then through school beingencouraged to do that more.
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And I think.
There was this kind of tie in of,oh, you're Indian, you're Native,
Native American, you're Indigenousyou're creative, and you can, you
know, this is what you should do.
So you kind of, so it becomes morecomplicated as, as you get older, but
through, throughout it I always feltlike that's where, that's what really
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fit with me when I was in spacesWhere you really have the freedom
to not only to think, but to create.
And that's where I've, those arethe times that I felt most connected
and powerful in my life is whenyou actually feel that creativity
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coming from somewhere, but channelingthrough you and coming out of you.
In my case, you know, like out of myhands and making something, try to
that for others when I've had thoseresponsibilities for others, you
know, for example, as curating.
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I always considered myself working forother artists and making and trying
to enable that for other artists.
My father is John Echohawk, who isthe founder of the Native American
Rights Fund, um, which is based inBoulder, Colorado, which is why I
grew up in this area and not at homeon the, on the reserve in Oklahoma.
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And the Native American RightsFund is kind of like the NAACP.
But it's for IndigenousPeoples in the United States.
So growing up in that kind of, in thathousehold, I, you know, I, I think
about my, and I always say like myfirst two words were tribal sovereignty.
During that time, in the late60s and early 70s, was really the
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political resurgence of IndigenousPeoples in the United States.
And in the, across the artificialborder, right, around treaty rights,
you know, fishing rights, and it wasa very volatile time as well with the
American Indian movement and otherIndigenous movements that were happening,
kind of, again, like that politicalresurgence of us as Indigenous peoples.
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So I grew up in that time.
Coming from my dad and the way thathe was raised, especially in the
time that he grew up, coming out ofthe termination era when tribes were
systematically terminated by the U.
S.
federal government, this idea ofassimilation, you know, the the idea
then that education is somethingthat's kind of the equalizer, right?
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And if you get your education, then youcan at least have something to be taken
seriously amongst non Indigenous people.
And while I still think that is probablytrue today, to some extent, I also see
the fact that reclaiming an education AsIndigenous peoples and educating our own
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people and determining what that is likeis also a reassertion of sovereignty,
because education was used as a toolfor assimilation and as a tool to, you
know, annihilate us as a people, right?
So, working in the educational spacethat I do is, is very important.
Just taking in all of these Amazingpeople and your legacies and your family.
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So just, you know, it's, it's interestingbeing here because, you know, I know our
names are, there's such power in names.
And so Sarah and Greg, your,your family's names, I know.
And I'm sure somewherealong the line related.
So just so powerful and just want torecognize that there's a story that I
have and there, you know, and every.
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community, tribal nation community,there is, there's some things that happen
in terms of the upheaval or overturnor of trying of tribal sovereignty.
And there was a time I remember,I have this very distinct memory
of being on my mother's shoulders.
And I was just a kid, and Iwas on my mother's shoulders.
And there was a time in northern Wisconsinwhere there was There was the fallout
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of the walleye wars or like watersthat were being protested and things.
And I remember not quite understandingwhy people were battling back and
forth and protesting actually aboutour peoples being on our lands fishing.
And it was really, um, My folkslook, look up at this time.
There was a lot of things going onwith like commercial fisher folks, you
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know, trying to say that, you know, weshouldn't be fishing on the waters, etc.
So my mom, she was this badassactivist person that would show
up all the time with signs,kids, you name it, she was there.
And I was there with my mom and I wason, on her shoulders because we made this
like crayon drawing, speaking regular,this colored crayon drawing scroll.
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And we were like, you know, like Fearthe spear, or these are our land rights.
So I remember being with my mom andactually there was a moment that I
distinctly remember of someone actuallythrowing rocks at us at that time.
And I remember a small pebble hittingmy hitting my arm and it hurt.
And it was like, wow, you know, likenot only there was something going
on that I was trying to make senseof, but like a physical form, like
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showing up on our lake that we fishat having a rock being thrown at us.
And that still sticks with me to this day.
And.
Whether or not that is Something thatcauses me to do what I do now in terms
of creating circles of joy, circlesof healing through art making, but
distinctly from that memory, beinga youth trying to put together and
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understand what The desperate need ofprotesting individuals on their own land,
trying to have their own rights, right?
So that memory made me think aboutmy own values and ethics of doing
this kind of work about challengingpresent day colonial legacies.
To imagine a decolonialfruit trees, right?
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This idea that you know, I wanted to,you know, my dream if I'm dreaming
seven generations into the futurefrom like, you know, little tie at
that time, I want to think about whatare tools that can be made to resist.
And fight these kind of colonialinequities and erasures, right?
That's the value that I hold.
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And I think I take that with me, thatmemory and all of those people that
were not only gathered on that day,but similar concentric circles that
are happening in other communities.
There's a certain kind of a spiritual,emotional, and physical charge to that.
And so, you know, every day, that is whyI primarily identify as, as an artist
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and want to amplify specific voices.
There's some terms that have stayedwith me from all of your responses.
Service, responsibility,education, circles of joy, and
challenging colonial inequities.
What is your definition of leadership?
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Based on your ancestry, yourlegacy, what is your definition of
leadership thinking about leadershipfrom a and Greg mentioned this
from a responsibility standpoint,right, rather than a rights and
individual rights standpoint,which is the way that colonized.
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colonizer governmentsparticularly here in the U.
S.
and Canada that we're talkingabout, really have a focus
on individual rights, right?
The right to own land, the right tothis, the right to that, and a lot of
the time that is spent in you know,in court battles is, is about whose
rights You know, who has rights to what?
And it's just, it's completely contrary,and even then difficult to reconcile,
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because as a generalization and kindof Indigenous worldview, it is, as
Greg said, more about responsibility.
What is my responsibility?
My responsibility to the whole, right?
Kind of like throwing a rockinto the, into a lake, right?
If you're the rock andthen the ripples, right?
So your responsibility kind ofthinking about a circle, right?
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Everything that you do has a,has a reciprocal impact, right?
Like again, the concept ofthe circle, this idea of
reciprocity is a responsibility.
So to, to a simple example would be, thiswas a while ago, I remember like at Mount
Shasta In, uh, what is today, California.
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At one point there was a battlethere to build a ski resort with
a small and they were battling asmall indigenous group there who had
a sacred spring that they felt wasgoing to be impacted by building this.
the ski the ski resort.
And the argument, of course, of thetribal people was that, you know, we
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have a responsibility to come and toessentially care for the spring, which
is also, in caring for the spring, it'sabout caring for all of humankind and as,
and for the world, like, collectively.
Right.
And that is our responsibility and wehave to do this as a responsibility that
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helps and protects all of us versus thisis, this is a private land and we have the
right to build and do what we want withit, which was the counter argument, right?
This, this is private land and we can,we can build a ski resort if we want.
So just those kind of counter views.
And so when I think about leadership.
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It really is about a responsibility,is the way that I see it.
I definitely feel like there's aresponsibility like in leadership
and you know in thinking about that.
I, You know, I often do think incircles, like this, the, the symbolic
literacy of the circle is real.
You know, I was given a dance whenI was seven years old by the late
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Kevin Locke, who is a hoop dancer.
And so, you know, he has been my mentorand, you know, I've been his apprentice
in, in, in his life, like off and on.
And so I learned thisdance, the hoop dance.
And that actually was theframework in terms of how I'm
thinking about leadership.
And it was if folks don't know aboutthis, you know, very traditional
dance that kind of is also verycontemporary, and also varies from
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tribe to tribe nation to nation.
You know, the this ideaof it is about the circle.
It's leading from the center.
It is the constant ebb and flow of tryingto find balance in a particular way.
It is, it's A dance thatfalls in and out of time.
It's something that's amorphous.
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That's also very specific and tactile.
It's something that's dreamlikeand at the same time, very you
know, very specific as it relatesto evolving language and culture
and accountability and transparencyand values and ethics forward.
I think about you know,the circle also has.
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the repetition of patterns, right?
There's like a learninginvolved from that.
Leadership is also learning.
And I think that youknow, it's pulling past.
into the present momentfor the future survival.
But I think it's really important as well.
And in this dance known as the hoopdance, in that dance, the dancer weaves
in and out of the hoops, right, of theselike multiple circles that are existing.
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And in that dance, it's talking aboutthat there's not just one design,
But in that dance, the design changesand it morphs right into various two
legged, four legged, winged, rootedfrom earth to sky and back again,
that the design is always changingbased on the relevancy of the moment.
And when you think about leadership,I'm like, wow, that's like a huge amount
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of responsibility and that takes agreat amount of accountability as well.
So I'll leave it there for now.
We kind of put together an idea.
of leadership in little pieces at atime, you know, people that, that you've
observed, that, um, behave in, in waysthat you admire and that, uh, that teach
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you, teach you a lesson and, and you beginto put together a composite understanding
of, of how those people lead, notbecause of a title that they hold.
A job title because they're behavingin ways that other people want to
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follow and want to emulate and want tobe part of and want to be around and
want to listen to, want to learn from.
I think there's a conflictbetween the kinds of leaders.
That we have, you know, that areelected or that are in a corporation
and hired into a leadership positionand the values that we want to value
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and uphold and, and live by, livewith coming from our, our cultural
context, so that's, that's a big thing.
In leadership development, inprofessional services, you know, we
went from a hierarchical leadershipfrom decades ago to now these terms like
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people leadership, shared leadership,collective leadership, you know, there
are programs and concepts and practicesthat are encouraged within communities,
within organizations to practice that.
And yet we are in a profitforward, capitalist world.
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What is the key difference between anindigenous perspective of leadership?
How historically tribes have existed.
This is, this is before theUnited States of America, right?
There was, there was a lot of thrivinggenerations worth of thriving, and
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that was a form of leadership that.
Each of you is upholding in your own ways.
And then there is our Westernphilosophy of leadership.
And I'm curious to hear whatis the difference between
the two, the way you see it.
A lot of my,
my time working in an institution that,you know, a national art gallery that.
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is about as far as you can get fromwhat we would, what we would call our,
you know, a traditional or customaryculturally based way of living with the
role and responsibility of Of working,of, of representing Indigenous artists.
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I haven't gotten past the conflictof, of, of that situation.
I think they're, they're kind ofirreconcilable in a way, which is a sad
idea, so I, I don't want to dwell on that.
But I, I guess I counter that and saythere has to be a way, and I'm looking
for that, and I want to see that.
I want to see how institutions,can change, especially in an era
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now where, where there's a lot oftalk about doing that very thing,
about, about decolonizing, aboutindigenizing, about care within a
corporate setting, about, about valuesthat are not just about profit about
equity and access and diversity.
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A lot of, all of these lofty goals,but the conflict comes, I think, in
trying to bring those things into thesevery established cemented structures,
you know, within, uh, Haudenosaunee.
Context, it, my understanding of, of ourcustomary leadership is, comes from a
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completely different structure that youngindividuals having the qualities necessary
for leadership recognized by the clanmothers and then cultivated to become
leaders through, through time and alwayswith the of, not speaking for others, but.
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Being the voice of, of others, of theclan, over and above self, where self is,
self is gone, and you, and you representa community of people, one is a voice
of people, which is so different from
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the power that is accorded to you.
Somebody within a corporate structure,for example, that I think it's the
tendency is to be corrupted by, by power.
You know, there's something wrong withthat system that so often goes toxic.
I'm very interested in, in, uh, inhearing about and discussing, you know,
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alternatives to that and how, how theycan function and how they do function.
That
is like such a big question becauseof what Greg brought up about.
Right.
Dismantling the monolith about speakingfor our like full community and being
like, um, is this okay to say or not?
Right.
There's like a constant accountabilityof like checking in about information,
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which actually it's, it's such areal thing and very, very important.
That not only, you know, holding one selfaccountable, but holding one's accountable
to the collective goal, right, in acontemporary in 2023, as well as our,
like, traditional life ways that exist inour communities and families and however
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folks are choosing whether to practiceor not based on what One's own identity.
So there's a lot of multiple layersthat are, that that's happening, right.
Based on coloniality, basedon indigenizing one's own
practice, even based on ceremony.
Which I think is important.
And, you know, it sort of brought meto thinking about you know, I, I grew
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up very gratefully and, and I, I think.
Just humbly a language speaker for mygrandmother of Anishinaabe, my father's
side, and learning about the MidewiwinLodge that we have there, right?
Which is the, uh, we have the SevenGrandfathers Teachings, which is
a framework in a value set systemthat talks about leadership.
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So, Among, you know, times of year,the solstices, we talk about leadership
and values constantly every year.
There's something new to be talkedabout for your entire lifetime.
Right.
Because, um, and the, this is somethingthat is known when the grandfather
teachings are humility, right?
Bravery, honesty, wisdom, truth,respect, and love these things.
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That can seem like, Oh, those are, are sogeneralized and you can find them on soaps
or t shirts or, you know, this, that,and the other in a capitalist society.
But these like, okay, no, we are going tosit together for a week and we are going
to purely talk about what it means totalk about love, like what does love need
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and the many facets around love or the,the many facets around being Being honest
or bravery or having humility, right?
So there's um, a value set that existsand those things can also change.
And they change with the seasons in termsof, right, the Anishinaabe teaching,
which is very important, so I thinkthere's something there that's important.
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And then those those teachingsthen becoming adopted into
the individual, right?
Like, okay, now, how am I going tothink about and bring about love in
my individual self after I meet asa collective unit and hear stories
and share stories and go througha type of collective catharsis?
How am I bringing that to the work thatI'm doing in my everyday existence, right?
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Or in the B'bara Zawin.
Which is living life to the fullest.
How am I bringing love so that everyday I can live my life to the fullest.
And when I think about that aslike an individual artist who
also has something to say, right,I'm thinking like, wow, okay.
So I'm doing, I'm humaning, right?
I'm humaning.
And bringing about loveand these, these teachings.
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And also I have to do some work, too,about creating stories or depict,
depicting narratives together.
And so I'm thinking aboutalso how to bring that, too.
So there's multiple layers, like,layers, I think, in terms of leadership.
And then at the same time, right, someonelike me that's at the intersection
of nations and tribes and identities,I'm thinking about, okay, my mother,
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how do I also honor my mother's stylesof leadership, which is what Greg
mentioned in the Haudenosaunee You know,culture and nation or the Oneida, the
Oneyotiyaga, the people on the standingstone, thinking about the clan mothers
and thinking about how every actionthat I'm doing in terms of leadership
is relating to the good mind, right?
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And that's like a very complexsystem, the good mind, right?
So there's our oratoria of theThanksgiving address of giving
thanks and gratitude every day in thelanguage to the creepy crawlers, to
the actions that one is, is, is, is.
is not only like performing in but isenacting so that it causes that ripple
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effect that Sarah's talking about to otherbeings and other people every single day.
And then how do I take that kind oflearning and leadership into my individual
artistry, my individual self, or my own?
Individual action.
So there's a lot of like twists and turnsand multiple layers and I'm like, wow,
can you, can you imagine the time andattention and intentionality that's going
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to take, which I think is important.
That being said, that being said,all of that, I think about, you know,
these two terms are brought up toindigenize and to decolonize, right.
So I'm thinking about grandfather'steachings, how I'm thinking
about the good mind, right?
And two of my cultures coming together.
I think about that relating.
Indigenizing and decolonizingtime, space, and resources, right?
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And every project that I'm doing, everylike room that I'm in, how am I bringing
this to my practice at every stage?
And so how I'm doing that is I'mvaluing accountability because I
think that is vital to the healthof my overall community, right?
And that's causing me to lookinward at my own values and making
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sure my values are alive, right?
Not just there as stalemate, but they'realive in my practice every day, right?
And sometimes that means I have to createnew opportunities for myself to practice
this by Drawing on that existing wisdom.
And sometimes I have to revise and revisitmy mistakes of, and in my structures and
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my practices, because I am an assimilatedperson also in 2023, right, that's trying
to gain a type of sovereignty in myself.
To give myself permission to have artisticfreedom, right, so that I can be part of
a collective, I can be an individual, andI could also be part of a collaboration
if I'm collaborating with people, right?
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And then when those things are, hopefully,somehow, achieved in some kind of
way, right, that I am exposing anddismantling prejudices and biases and,
and disrespect in their varied extent.
Expressions that I can then honor andcelebrate all of my relations, right?
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This term that's used a lot in acontemporary urban society, all my
relations, the idea that my ancestorsand my peers and those yet to come,
that I'm centralizing them in theirown development and in their content.
And In the presentation of the work.
Therefore I hope, right.
That's like, like a little personal dreamis that I'm holding myself responsible
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for initiating a type of welcoming anda type of tending for those, for those
ongoing reciprocal relations, right.
And, um, all of that just takes practice.
Like every, every singleday it's, it's a practice.
And sometimes I fail at that.
And sometimes I'm successful at that.
And, right, going back to thegrandfather's teachings, it's, it's
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humbling, it's humbling, and that ishumbling, and that is why evaluating
what it means to hold being humble everysix months or so, right, is important.
I always think about being a goodancestor, which is kind of what what
you're saying in all my relations, right?
In other words, you know, again,thinking about your actions and and
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the work and the things that youare doing and how those are going
to impact those who come after you.
So, Being a good ancestor is part of that.
And I think again, you know, themesthat we've talked about here, the idea
of, you know, the responsibility tothe whole rather than the individual.
And I, it's, it's difficult.
(31:09):
Yeah, especially so even in, you know,the organization that I, that I'm a
part of and quote unquote leading.
You know, in order for us to do thework that we wanted to do and do it
from a nonprofit right standpoint,so we're not paying huge amounts
of taxes and all of that, then wehave to adhere to a strict form.
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In terms of how an organization isbuilt and what it's, you know, what
it can do and what it can't do, andall the regulations that go with that.
And so it is really hard, as Greg wassaying, like you're always coming into
conflict with that in terms of, youknow, thinking about how you would
approach this from an indigenousstandpoint, and yet how you're required
then to do it within, you know, theconstruct that has been set for you.
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So it's, it's definitelya, a, you know, a daily.
a daily challenge coming froma place of being assimilated,
right, at this day and age.
And different people that I comeinto contact with that work with our
organization, some get impatient withThe particular leadership style, if
you will, or the way that I do thingsand the way that I try to fill that
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role and that it takes a lot longer,generally, to make decisions or to
move forward on anything because Ido engage more in a collective way.
Type leadership style and that I want tohear and talk about as time was saying
sometimes for a very long time, you knowabout things that we're thinking of and
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it's not that, you know, a lot of timeswe have those conversations and these
really big discussions and there, youknow, can be about key decisions and we
will come out with no with no decision.
Right, because we'vejust, we're not there.
We're not there yet.
And that, you know,and that can frustrate.
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Others, I do, who are like,we just need to get this done
and we need to get this done.
In the end, you know, I look acrossthe organization and things that are
typically measured by a larger society,like turnover and staff, right?
We don't really have a lot of that, right?
We don't have a lot of dissatisfaction,if you will, because it's, you know,
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the same thing, like the way that,you know, we don't do these kind of.
performance reviews and all ofthese things that, you know, are
kind of the accepted way to dothings and it's, and it's different.
So yes, things get, take longer to getdone, but ultimately people are more
engaged and want to be a part of it.
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It's definitely more of a consensusor a collective approach, but it
is not easy and it's not absoluteIndigenous because it can't be.
in the way that theorganization is structured.
So I don't know, I think as,as Greg said, like, if that
can ever be reconciled, right?
So we just kind of, do thebest that we can every day.
(34:13):
And, and I think as, as Ty wassaying, you know, checking in with
yourself about whether or not, youknow, you're doing your part or your
best to, to do those things and tothink about internally how that does.
So, um, definitely have nightly, nightlyreflections with myself about that.
I call it being yourown best friend, right?
(34:35):
Talking to yourself as you would a goodfriend and kind of revisiting those
things and thinking about what you couldhave done differently and how to go
forward in the future, but in a kind way.
Right.
Like the friend instead of this way thatwe usually work in in today's society
about beating ourselves up and beatingother people up for their mistakes.
So,
(34:56):
as you always speaking, I was thinkingabout the work that we do is really
about having our clients understandthe value of centering people.
When you center your people,you're building healthy culture.
When you're building healthy culture.
Your business works, I'm going to playdevil's advocate, and I'm not going to
(35:17):
ask you to respond to this unless you wantto, but one of the repeated things I keep
getting is, yes, that's all well and good,Farah, but the work needs to get done.
We need productivity andwe need accountability.
And then we get into this veryinteresting conversation around
(35:38):
when we talk about accountability.
It's about to each other and thebusiness place of accountability of
get the job done in that timeline.
So, yes, yes, yes, mental health, that'svery important to us and get it done.
So, I share all of this becausethe one thing that each of you
(35:59):
has mentioned is it's not defined.
It is really contextual and it isa daily minute by minute practice
that you do not always get right.
So, Sarah, to that reflected pieceof going back to think, how would
I want to do that differently?
(36:20):
What worked about this?
What could I reiterate about this?
Right?
And, and all of these goldenpractices are what, unfortunately,
don't get as prioritized.
But if they did there, there's somuch value in terms of, like you
(36:40):
said, Retention you know, being thatgood, solid place to work, being
able to feel valued, move up in youraspirations, whatever they might be.
So, speaking about moving up, I'd like tomove this conversation to talk a little
bit about Indigenous representation inall of the various fields that you are in.
(37:00):
And if you have you know, because we havemuseum curation, we have artistry, we have
Indigenous representation in STEM fields.
And we'd love to hear from eachof you, what is the current
state of that representation?
And where do we want it to go?
Where do we want it to be?
(37:21):
I guess I can talk about this fromTwo different perspectives just
because I did work in a museum for,for decades with really this, the sole
purpose of, of increasing Indigenousrepresentation within the museum.
You know, that institution which isa national level institution, so then
(37:43):
it's, that setting a mark, a markeracross the country, across, across
Canada, and then there was, there wasalso very much, uh, an international,
uh, Component to, to that workthere, to that, that responsibility.
So, Indigenous Peoples globally.
(38:07):
So, I mean, we talked about alittle bit about, you know, the, the
possible irreconcilability betweenwhat, what really are colonial
institutions, an art gallery, a museum.
Comes out of colonial
(38:28):
land grabbing and taking,taking of things, taking,
taking objects that represent.
so called, defeated or conquestedconquests and bringing them back to
king's cabinets to be displayed, youknow, as treasures and curiosities.
(38:48):
Collections of, uh, representing,the extensive empires and then these
collections, you know, eventuallymany of them shift over into public
control, become museums and thebasis of, of museum collections.
So those institutions are, you can't,you know, they're so colonial at heart.
They're the definition of colonialism.
(39:10):
So, so how, how do you, how do you workwithin that and, and deal with, you know,
the, the, representation, uh, insteadof being collected and put on display
to work within that and, and collectand put on display, but, but from a,
(39:34):
from a completely different perspective,doing it in a completely different way.
Not for power, but for, forsharing, for amplifying voices.
I'm proud of the, the things thatwe were able to get done you.
Within that institution because of thepower and the privilege of that space,
the amount of money that a national levelinstitution has to do things is you don't
(39:56):
have access to that at other levels,be able to take some of that and do.
Forward moving things, Ithink, is really important.
For myself, it's been justall about learning trying, you
know, doing historical research,doing cultural research.
(40:17):
I was born off reserve, so my fatherwas born on reserve, so my connection
to our reserve territory, whereI assumed was the locus of, uh,
everything Haudenosaunee, everythingMohawk that had to come from there.
I had a connection, connection throughfamily, through visiting there, but I had
(40:39):
to do a lot of work, you know, outsideof that, outside of that place within an
educational context, and try to come to anunderstanding of how, how do I represent
Myself and represent these culturesthat I'm learning about and history.
(40:59):
And what is, what is my responsibility?
What is my accountability within that?
Always keeping those,those things in mind.
I mean, those are two examples of, ofTaking it on as personal responsibility
and being in a position of power whereyou can work to increase that for others.
(41:22):
Our organization is dedicated toincreasing the number of Indigenous people
in, well, in North America and the PacificIslands and the STEM fields of science,
technology, engineering, and math.
And why representation matters In whatin the work that we do, at least the way
that our organization sees it is that We
(41:45):
know that as Indigenous people, we arethe first scientists, and much of the
knowledge that we carry, particularlytraditional ecological knowledge,
is invaluable in terms of addressingmany of the problems that the use of
Western science has created today,including climate change and other large
(42:08):
issues that impact all of us, right?
So we see representation as a way tobring Indigenous worldview, Indigenous
practice, and Indigenous knowledge intothose fields and to try to build a bridge
between Western science,Western thought, and Indigenous
(42:29):
science and Indigenous thought.
And kind of like DEI is today, thus far,you know, it's, it's starting to happen,
we see some of this happening, but a lotof it is sort of compartmentalized, right?
It's kind of like when I look, wework, you know, I look at corporations
(42:50):
and other organizations, federalagencies and stuff Where they work in
DEI, it's like usually a program ora department, very compartmentalized
and sort of Western thinking, right?
Separation of all these things.
Whereas from an Indigenous perspective,everything is interrelated.
You can't separate out, say, religionand spirituality from politics, from
(43:12):
family, from all of these things.
Everything is interrelated.
And so, When we're working, the tendencyfirst was always, you know, to not,
to just disregard it completely.
And now to be like, Oh yeah, that's nice.
There's a place for that over here.
Instead of realizing that asindigenous people, a lot of the
knowledge that we bring is invaluable.
(43:36):
And it's, you know, it's, it's valuable,and it's real instead of being kind of
discounted as, oh yeah, that's, that'snice, and you can go do your indigenous
science over here or whatever, right?
That's starting to change, andthat changes with representation.
The one thing I want to say is, I thinkthat we work very hard at is just, not
just representation, but I see this,because I worked in philanthropy,
(43:59):
and, Other areas, but again, thetendency is to kind of let us in, if
you will, at the ground level, right?
So in philanthropy is program officers,you know, in the workspaces, you
know, kind of entry level positions.
But in fact, if things are really goingto change, then people need to be in
leadership positions and that practiceof DEI and all of that actually has
(44:22):
to be integrated across all aspectsof the organization, wherever that is,
and become a natural part of it as wedo, as we see Indigenous science and
Indigenous practice also needs to be.
I totally think so.
This idea of leadership is soimportant in terms of representation.
I feel like my answer to that is more.
(44:42):
There cannot be enough.
I mean, you know, just more, I, I thinkthere's something really important to say,
even when we just basically look at, atnumbers alone on Turtle Island, right?
The, I mean, I could go intopercentages, I can go into numbers.
So when you center Nativeleadership at all levels, like
(45:04):
that is hugely, hugely important.
The field that I workin is the theater film.
You know, a lot of contemporary artspaces, and I feel like these spaces
are important, you know, and I workprimarily as an interdisciplinary
artist, and I wanted to speak actuallyabout a project that I was working on
where we got a large budget to workon this piece, and it, it was 150, 000
(45:28):
budget, right, given to an artist fora project at a contemporary art museum.
And the project was to center TwoSpirit and DigiQueer individuals and
artists so that we could create radicalcare, radical care for one another.
That includes travel, lodging,housing, per diem, stipend activities
(45:52):
and that, that was the art, right?
And so when we think about, and I'm, Ireally wanted to go into detail about
this because it was really importantthat all of that funding, all of
that money didn't go to one person.
Right.
In terms of creating an artproject that that piece actually
was about fostering reciprocalrelations and creating radical care.
So it went to like over 72 two spiritindigenous queer individuals, right?
(46:17):
And so when you think about that, thevalue add to that is that those people, we
are still in touch with each other, right?
We had right.
aunties, grandpas, uncles, cousins,coming together so that we could
create a two spirited digit queerpowwow, where there was laughter,
there was joy, there was succession,there was art that was being shared,
(46:39):
there were circles of communication,reciprocity, and dialoguing, ancient
and new wisdom that was going on.
And there are many layers,I think, to that project.
In particular, because it,it, it did center two spirit
indig queer individuals, right?
It was like, it was like, chiselingdown to the core, like who, what voices
(47:00):
in, in, in society need to be held?
And what voices needed tohave leadership at that time.
And so I say that as an example,because it also wasn't just me
that was administering it, right.
It was a concentric circles of teamworkthat made the dream work happen.
You know?
And I will say ouraccountability factor, right.
(47:22):
Was having afterwards, a lot of the,the, the elders and a lot of the youth.
Remain in contact with each otherand to create a feedback kind of
loop in particular with each otherabout how we were feeling, right?
So our measured outcome, right,in terms of leadership was
how did this make you feel?
(47:42):
Which is different for how manyparticipants showed up, how many
this, how many that, like, whatdid you think about this, right?
Our measured outcome was how didwe make each other feel at that
time on that weekend, right?
So there's a constant, I think,for me, in terms of representation.
And an oscillation oftranslation that goes on.
(48:03):
And I think representation isimportant because it takes someone
right on the receiving end, gettingthis information, a philanthropist,
a senior giving officer who's workingin the art field to really understand
what I'm talking about, that there'sthis model of abundance model mindset.
That I'm working from, that I, thatI'm leading from, and that only works
(48:25):
at the 360 view of that circle, right,that hoop that we were talking about,
that it takes like all of that kindof representation at all aspects to be
there to understand what it takes tocreate radical care to a community that
has been marginalized, oppressed, basedon historic colonialism and religion.
(48:46):
I just want to lift up nuggets from eachof you, you know, Greg talking about the
museum being a colonial institution andhow do you shift perspective to continue
to uplift art artists history in that way.
Sarah talking about DEI andindigenous representation.
(49:07):
We, me and my peers are constantly inconversation about when we talk about DEI,
indigenous Voice perspective history doesnot always get included and it needs to.
that historical erasure, that historicalbeing silenced, and then tie coming
back to the circle of how are wegoing to do this, the constant co
(49:31):
creation, um, of representation andhow representation lifts each other up.
And so I'd love to give space to, ify'all have any insight on, on What
do we need to learn from our youth?
What are you hearing from Indigenousyouth that we could take away?
because I truly believe welearn from our young people.
(49:54):
I just because I'mafraid I won't have time.
I just wanted to briefly just acknowledgewhat Greg said about and just thank
him for his his work in that spacewith the issues around repatriation
and other issues that are prevalent.
I was just reading an article aboutthis, you know, big exhibit of Inca
(50:16):
mummies and just the Just the, it justbreaks, anyway, I just, so the work
that you're doing is, is so criticaland, uh, just here in Denver the
Denver Museum of Nature and Science, Iknow it's not an art museum, but they
actually closed their exhibit this summerto re evaluate, the Native American
Wing, to re evaluate it with communitymembers, so it is making a difference.
(50:37):
That, you know, people that like Greg,who are advocating in that space,
things, you know, are slow, but they arechanging and to tie in this, this will
tie this will tie into your questionfor, uh, thank you for being an advocate
for indigent queer people as theparent of a queer trans two spirit son.
I, I appreciate so much thework that is being done in that.
(50:58):
And I am in.
I am an ally as well.
And I think there are a lot of thingsthat youth are doing today, certainly,
that, you know, are coming to ourattention and helping us understand
what, you know, things that need tohappen and things that need to change.
And for, for me personally, and alsowithin the organization, a lot of it has
(51:18):
been from our Two Spirit community andthe youth there who are really advocating.
Um, in that space and often at theirown peril because it is a dangerous
space right now for people in thatcommunity, given all of the things
that are happening particularly in theU S and several of the states here.
So, we definitely in the organizationthat I work in have tried to elevate
(51:41):
that voice and create a safe space.
We call it safe camp.
And that really has come from theyouth our youth, our indigenous youth.
Requesting that and talking tous about the importance of that.
And so when we, for example we haveour Eagle Staff Fund that we use to
open our events, but we also includethe pride flag in that and have a
(52:03):
discussion and be very visible aboutincluding that community because a lot
of The prejudice and what, you know, thefear and things that are happening are
the result of colonialism rather thantraditional indigenous communities, right?
Where that was very different.
And so trying to, along with the youth,our youth pushing us, trying to raise
(52:28):
their visibility and the understandingabout how traditionally those
particular individuals and community.
The community of those peoplewere revered and held up
this idea about change and terminologythat that change is okay right like I
think we are all as humans conditionedto patterning right like we like it like
(52:51):
patterns and so I think with youth it'slike wow it's so exciting to know that
there are whole new terms that we And theyhaven't even thought of yet, right, that
are existing to explain what somethingmight be in terms of ways of identifying
or ways of being in, in the world.
I know in Anishinaabe territoriesyou know, babies are totally welcome
(53:15):
at meetings and things like this.
And I know other nations and communities,they, you know, like in terms of like
ancient wisdom, there, there, thereshould be no, Special meeting, no kind
of counsel, anything, anything donewithout having a youth presence, right?
Baby, toddler, adolescent, orotherwise, because it's a physical,
(53:36):
physical manifestation of areminder about the things that are
shared in those circles, right?
In terms of leadership.
And why I think there's somethingreally important about this idea of
rematriation that has taken placeand rematriation introduced by many
different tribal nations and communities.
But just a shout out to like thematriation project here on the
(53:56):
east coast of some Oneida andOnondaga nations, people who are
really making that movement happen.
and a lot of our indigenous womentoo, who are doing that and Two
Spirit folks from MMIWA, right?
Like, I think there's something about.
There's something really, really,really important when you center
the most marginalized and oppressedcommunities of your own community.
(54:20):
The younger artists, uh, that I talk to,I'm just constantly amazed by how far
ahead, you know, they are in terms of, HowI grew up, you know, and, and it's, and I
find that so inspiring and so encouraging.
(54:41):
Things that, you know, that werestruggles to comprehend, come so easy.
Easily and naturally.
My connection with youth is reallyjust through my kids who are, you know,
kind of growing out of that category.
Uh, one's 25 and one's 23.
(55:03):
I really believe that we're ina time where those possibilities
are, you know, amplified.
You can, you reallycan, you really do have.
At least here, you know, in NorthAmerica, in most places there's a great
deal more freedom to, to conceive ofand define oneself in different ways.
(55:29):
And I think that, you know,
how can there be anything morebasic and fundamental than that?
Just having the freedom to.
To be what what what you want to be.
(55:50):
I'm going to end with one questionfrom our, , one of our, , registrants,
how do you envision indigenousleadership in corporations?
New to tribal allyship where nontribal members play a majority
of participation in growth.
And what are you elements indigenous staffcan bring to elevate a company's value
(56:13):
terms of corporations?
Yeah, the, , the makeupof many corporations.
Obviously, it's not at paritywith the way that you know, the
population actually is first of all.
So we know that typically communities,people of color are underrepresented.
So particularly for indigenous peoples.
, That's a big question, , but what we shareis we, at least at ACES, what we try to do
(56:38):
is get to the executive leadership becausewhat corporations, many corporations will
say that they support is DEI again, right?
We are about DEI, but then I think aswe touched on oftentimes Indigenous
people will be left out of that becausewe are a smaller percentage of the
population and we've, I constantly.
(56:58):
Less and less, but haveheard like there's no ROI.
Right.
We can't hire, you know, we only get twohires, you know, if we go to, you know,
a recruiting event for indigenous peopleand so the measurement there is right
is quantitative rather than qualitativeand So having the conversations with
leadership about redefining the, uh,you know, uh, sorry, ROI and what that
(57:22):
means and how can you attract moreIndigenous people into your corporation,
if that's what you're trying to do, wellthen we're going to talk about creating
an enabling environment for them.
Doesn't matter how many services wewrap around our Indigenous students
and professionals, if they're goinginto environments that are hostile
or not set up to support them, thenthey're not going to be successful.
There's a number of things we'restarting to work on in that, but
(57:43):
just kind of anecdotally thingsaround like the employee resource
groups that are there, which are,you know, groups in corporations.
And other agencies that are, you know,like they might have an indigenous one
or African American or queer differentgroups where employees can come together
that identify as being a part of thosecommunities but often what we see in those
(58:06):
is that those That people are supposedto participate those as volunteers
outside of their job, and there is nofinancial support for them to do anything.
Really, they would have to kind offundraiser, you know, figure out how
to pay for things they want to do ontheir own dime and or they may bring
in like speakers and other things.
(58:27):
But often what happens even if thathappens is that's limited to that group
rather than thinking about how to do that.
widely.
So, what I would say, you know, forcorporations, what I advise them
to do is not only support thoseIndigenous resource groups, but from an
executive perspective or an executiveposition, they need to be supported.
(58:47):
They need to be funded.
They don't need to be froma volunteer standpoint.
People should be able to do that aspart of their jobs, because if they
feel like they belong, they will stay.
A lot longer
sponsorship where all of that ERGwork is happening as much within work
hours as possible, unless there's aconsensus to have it outside of it and
(59:10):
to mentoring, constant mentoring, careerdevelopment, professional development.
So that it's not look, wehave a space for this group.
No, it's we are invested in this group.
We are helping develop that becausethat what you get back is your ROI.
So it's not just enough to show likethe check the box piece of we have them.
(59:34):
That's not enough.
It's like, how are you pouring into them?
Because what you pour into themis what you're going to get out.
I
just wanted
to name
that.
Yeah, no, I, I'm glad you broughtthat up, Farah, because I wanted
to talk a little bit about, so someof my work too is with Indigenous
Direction, where I'm co founder.
It's a consulting company that isworking with Indigenous folks and
(59:56):
non Indigenous folks to amplifyIndigenous voices, essentially.
And some of our larger projects thatwe have, um, we work with, you know,
um, some corporations and one, I'llgive an example, right, to sort of give
you a foyer into some of this work.
An example is, there is the dayof mourning that is happening,
you know, next week, or T Day.
(01:00:18):
some folks refer to this as Thanksgiving.
Um, and so there's the Macy's ThanksgivingDay Parade, for example, that's happening.
And I've been working with Macy'sfor a number of years, actually, on
this parade to get representation,you know, during the parade, but
also, right, that's like a huge feat.
Will this, will this parade ever go away?
(01:00:39):
This celebration of a type of genocide?
You know, question mark, right?
Like, no, but what can I do to folksthat might not understand Indigenous
worldview is, one, we can work towardsremoving and dismantling some of the
myths that exist during the parade, right?
So, a great example is this.
If you do watch the parade, you won'tsee any of the pilgrims, right, on
(01:01:03):
the parade route any longer or ontelevision, you right, you will see
accurate depictions of Mampanoagpeople getting some of the tribal
nations people to be in conversationwith, with the corporation, right?
And it's, I think, you know,there's like a ton, a ton, of
mistakes that are happening, right?
But there's also some celebrationsthat are existing, right?
(01:01:23):
It's not going to be perfect andit's not going to be imperfect.
It's, it's, it's a dialoguethat is happening, right?
So I think in a world right nowthat values a type of colonial
white supremacy culture, right?
You have to be willing to make mistakesand willing to be in dialogue about
something, about creating Something that'simperfectly perfect, so to speak, right?
(01:01:46):
And so this parade, for example,even the turkey, for example, had
a, you know, like a pilgrim hat onwith a pilgrim belt buckle, right?
But now it's, it turnsinto show turkey, right?
It's a, it's a turkey with a bow tie.
Right.
And so it's kind of like how, and that'sjust a step that is scratching the surface
to, to some of, to some of this, right.
(01:02:08):
And in terms of non tribal folksand, and what's happening in
the art sector, at least, right.
It's to me, we're at the stage ofengaging in a type of dialogue and also.
Right.
Getting propagandic imageryremoved and putting some that
are is is sort of real, right?
So that parade reaches 10 million peoplewho are going to see that in their homes
(01:02:30):
across the country that come from statesthat are red and blue and green, right?
And so what can I do as an artistto create a type of subversion?
to create dialoguesabout gratitude, right?
Because was, was, wasthere food that was shared?
Sure.
Okay.
Let's talk about gratitude and howdo we work within a system also
(01:02:53):
that's banning books that aren'tallowing some of the political
change for Native people to be seen.
So it's a really tricky artistrythat needs to toggle back and forth
and oscillate between getting it,getting it right and getting it wrong.
But to me, it's about.
The re education, the reframing, andalso having non Native people and non
(01:03:14):
Native companies engage in a dialogueabout, about what can you do to be an
accomplice to have, to have a lot of,to have accurate representation, to have
leadership, to maybe, um, think aboutreframing how boards might need to operate
and getting indigenous representationon the board because that voice matters.
(01:03:36):
That body matters.
If it's one person, if it'stwo people, it's three people.
So that's why I was, I'm kindof leaning into this idea more.
First, I want to thank Sarah for herkind words, but also earlier about
work that I'm doing in museums, butalso clarify that I was working in
(01:03:59):
an art museum, so, and one that hada fairly recent history of collecting
works from, from Indigenous artists.
So they didn't really havea collection where they ran
into issues with repatriation.
so I didn't do that kind of,I didn't, I didn't have to do
(01:04:23):
that kind of work too much.
As important as it is and as much asit's a huge factor and responsibility
for curators that are, that areburdened with those kinds of
collections and how to deal with them.
That said, I mean, a lot of whatwe're talking about, you know,
(01:04:45):
get into a critical mass within,within an institution, getting to
putting people, having people inpositions of power and executive.
Uh, I, I think, uh, I kind of livedthrough some of that and some of the,
some of the successes and, and failuresin that, you know, it's not just numbers.
(01:05:10):
It's, it's, it's the right people.
you know, and when I was lookingat the question, I, I wanted
to, I wanted to add one letter,see at the end of that sentence.
Um, the last word is, you know,value, like a corporation's value.
But I want to put an s therebecause it's, it's not value.
(01:05:31):
It's value and, and.
And that's where, I think this iswhere, when we're focused on, on numbers
statistics the numbers of people ina corporation and those positions,
yes, it's important, but it's, butit's important, but what's even more
(01:05:53):
important is to have a company's valuesaligned with the values that they're
purportedly bringing into the institution.
Uh, so we talk a lot aboutdecolonizing and indigenizing.
And I think from most institutionsperspectives, they don't really, they very
(01:06:14):
rarely have an understanding of what thatmeans, because, you know, and you can, and
yes, I mean, we're, that's understandablebecause we're trying to define that.
We don't, we don't all know what it means.
so it's a, it's a joint process,and it's, and it's one that, that
requires equal amounts of trust.
(01:06:39):
On, you know, on both sides, trustthat you're, you're being invited into
something that, you know, we talked about,yeah, where are you going to be supported?
And so that when there's a challengingidea coming from a different
perspective, that might lateralizepower, that might lateralize
(01:07:00):
hierarchies that that's not threatening.
That, that the possibility
the possibilities containedwithin, within those ideas are,
can actually be comprehended.
That's, I think, the big challenge.
Like, in Canada, there'sbeen a lot of talk and and
(01:07:23):
progress in, in different ways.
I've seen organizations invite in, Andthen implode because it didn't, because
no one really understood what theywere doing and when it got to the point
of, of actual transfer of power and
(01:07:46):
meaningful change within theinstitution, the whole thing blew up
and, and had, and had to be reformed.
And when it, and when it did reform,it was A stronger, tighter form of its
older self, you know, more resistant.
(01:08:07):
I don't want to end on a, on a negativenote, but I think, I think that these
kinds of, kinds of conversations areso important, and I really benefit from
hearing both from, from Ty and Sarahand, and from you, Farrah, and, you know,
provoking this and, and encouraging it.
So I'm, I'm really grateful for, uh,what I've heard and what I've learned.
(01:08:32):
And the leadership thatI've seen modeled, today.
So thank you.
Not a downer.
I think what you're leaving us with is theimportance of to know what you're doing.
You got to constantly be astudent and a practitioner.
Learn, learn history,learn, learn of our origins.
(01:08:56):
We have to constantly belearning, growing with each other.
So for me, that's not a downer.
I think that's, that's whatall of you are leaving us with.
What a gift.
This conversation was, thank you toSarah, Greg, Ty, for your time, for
your wisdom, for your leadership,and thank you for what you do.
Maybe I'll take some time, uh, later thisweek on Day of Mourning, on Indigenous
(01:09:22):
Peoples Day, to sit with this and reflect.
Our call to action is domore, do better, do different.
So, that's what I can commit to.
Thank you all so much.
Be well.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I really hope that this episode isthe start to future conversations
(01:09:43):
you have with your colleagues,teams, and communities.
We continue the exploration of identitythis season with our next episode, Faith,
Race, and Gender in South Asian Identity.
Subscribe now to Farsight Chatswherever you get your podcasts.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook at GoFarsight,
(01:10:03):
LinkedIn at the Farsight Agency, andcheck out our website, gofarsight.
com.
To know more about whowe are and what we do.
Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better, and do different.