EP14: White Identity

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala discusses white identity and anti-racism with experts Krissy Shields, Jane Rosenzweig, and Michael Robertson – all white anti-racist practitioners, reflecting on the urgency and passion of their work following high-profile racial injustices. The guests share personal experiences, strategies, and the ongoing nature of anti-racist work, emphasizing the importance of discomfort, continuous learning, and collective effort. The episode also highlights the significance of involving others in these conversations and the responsibility of leveraging one's privilege effectively. There is a call to action for white listeners to engage more deeply, use their privilege responsibly, and foster environments of equity and inclusion.

| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |

The Journey of Anti-Racism:

• Anti-racism is viewed as a lifelong practice rather than a destination.
• Participants emphasized the importance of white individuals remaining uncomfortable and committed to continuous self-examination and systemic action.

Role of Conversations:

• Open dialogue among white people about racism is essential for growth and accountability.
• Participants advocated for fostering spaces where individuals can challenge internalized biases and societal norms.

Leveraging Privilege:

• The panel discussed the necessity of white individuals leveraging their privilege, even at personal risk, to support anti-racist actions and amplify marginalized voices.

Navigating Resistance and Hostility:

• Strategies for addressing resistance, including curiosity, empathy, and engaging others in dialogue without being confrontational.
• Examples included challenging problematic language or behaviors in professional and personal settings.

Avoiding Performative Allyship:

• The group reflected on distinguishing genuine advocacy from performative acts.
• They stressed the importance of self-checking intentions and ensuring actions are meaningful and impactful.

Community and Collaboration:

• The guests underscored the value of collective work in anti-racism, recommending practices such as role-playing difficult conversations and building supportive networks.

Intersectionality:

• The conversation also touched on the dynamics of multiracial spaces and the specific responsibilities white individuals have when working alongside marginalized groups.

Call to Action:

• Listeners were encouraged to examine their own biases, stay committed to action, and engage in ongoing education and dialogue to drive systemic change.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Introduction to FARSIGHT Chats

00:29 Introducing Today's Topic: White Identity in 2020

02:01 Meet the Panelists

04:37 Honoring Lives Lost

07:44 Addressing Anti-Racism as a Lifelong Journey

15:05 The Evolution of Diversity and Inclusion

18:17 Ensuring Continued Commitment to Anti-Racism

26:33 Leveraging Privilege and Taking Action

37:40 Navigating Mixed Race Spaces

38:04 The Role of Organizational Development

38:58 Personal Reflections on Advocacy

41:24 Understanding White Comfort

43:01 Practical Tactics for Interrupting Bias

44:52 The Importance of Practice and Support

53:26 Addressing Performative Allyship

57:54 Responding to Hostility and Resistance

01:05:37 The Power of Solidarity

01:07:12 Conclusion and Call to Action

Connect with our guests:

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your guideto navigating complex and important
conversations on society and culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.

(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding,
growth, and positive change.
Today's topic.
White identity in 2020.
We originally recorded this in thefall of 2020, when I was joined by
a group of fierce white anti racistpractitioners within their own fields.
Chrissy Shields, Jane Rosensweig,and Michael Robertson.

(00:48):
We were among countless conversationsbeing had among white folk around the
country on the backs of the countlessmurders of our Black brothers and sisters.
You can hear the passion andurgency in our voices throughout
the episode, with a rallying cryto show up, do more, do better.
And explore ways to bring people along.

(01:08):
A stark reminder of how much we as asociety have regressed a few years later.
If you are among those who are stillraising their voices to inequities,
I hope this conversation affirmsyour actions and gives you some
more tools to sustain your work.
If you are among those who, for whateverreason, have taken a step back, or think

(01:31):
the time for this has passed, or thatthere are more urgent things to focus
on, I hope this episode helps reignitethe need for your voice to be heard.
There is too much at stake without you.
A huge thank you to these incrediblehumans, distinguished speakers,

(01:52):
guests, joining me today inconversation, Jane Rosenzweig,
Michael Robertson, Chrissy Shields.
Thank you so much for being here.
And I'd like to ask you tointroduce yourselves, please.
Hi.
Hi.
I'm Hi.
Hi.
Jane Rosenzweig.
Thank you, Farah, for caring so much.
Let's see, quick intro.
I'm in the Catskills.

(02:13):
otherwise known as Lenapeland, on an actual street
called Hiawatha Trail at that.
So, I'm a diversity practitioner,long term corporate.
I used to say I do social justiceundercover in a corporate setting and
it's no longer undercover is one ofthe recent like amazing things that has
happened and I've been examining my ownwhiteness and helping others to do the

(02:38):
same for a long time because I thinkit's It's at the core of everything
that needs to happen so that we cantruly be anti racist in every context.
So happy to talk about it.
Thank you, Farah.
Hi folks.
, Michael Robertson.
I use he him pronouns I amalso on Lenape territory.
I'm in right now on the upper west side ofManhattan And I work at the intersection

(03:00):
of art and activism art and social changewith the belief that if art can change
hearts and minds That's where we needthe work in order to create a more just
society So I work in a bunch of differentdifferent spheres, but my main You focus
is with the national initiative calledArt Equity, which is a national initiative
at the intersection of art and activism.
So it's a pleasure to be here today.

(03:22):
Thank you.
Hi, I'm Chrissy Shields.
I'm calling in from Lenape Munseeterritory in upstate New York.
and I'm just so gratefulto be in this conversation.
I've been, , in the wellness communitywhere spiritual bypassing has lived
within and cultural appropriation haslived within our work for a long time.

(03:46):
And I've been questioningit for a few years.
And I'm in predominantly in thepre and postnatal world where the
maternal mortality rate for womenof color is through the roof.
It's much higher than a white woman.
And that caused me to just open my eyesand wake up to this and allowed me to dive

(04:08):
into this conversation in my yoga spaces.
And I work with Citizen Well in manyworkshops and forums, which is basically.
Finding wellness for all, whichI think has been missed in the
setting up of this country.
And so I am so honored to be here amongall of you to have this conversation.

(04:34):
Thank you all.
I'm going to ask you to joinus in a minute of silence to
honor, to honor a lot of lives.
Today is, is a heavy day,September 11th , in 2001.
I had just moved to the United Statesfrom India about three weeks before then.

(04:58):
and it is a day that's etched inall of our memories and we want
to honor the lives and spirits.
that we lost on that day.
We are thinking about the familieswho have lost their loved ones.
We are also thinking about thethousands of lives that we have lost
in these last few months with twopandemics, one being COVID, and the

(05:20):
other being the racism in this country.
And so, the names of these Blacklives that have been tragically
even lost, I'm going to say them outloud, and then we're going to follow
that up with a minute of silence.
So please join me in that.
George Floyd, George Floyd.
Brianna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery,David McHattie, Tony McDade, Sean

(05:47):
Reed, Nina Popp, Mubarak Suleimani,Rayshard Brooks, Dominique Remy
Fells, Rhea Milton, Oluwatoyin
Salau, Victoria Sims, ElijahMcClain, Ayanna Stanley Jones,

(06:09):
Dalian Prude.
We're also thinking about Jacob Blakewho was shot in his back seven times
and has been injured.

(07:44):
So my friends, I want to startoff with a question that we got
from one of our participants.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts.
How do we combat the attitude of people
who think there is a completionpoint in the anti racism journey?
I believe it is a lifelong thingthat one cannot achieve, but I

(08:05):
find not everyone feels that way.
I'm having a hard timemaking that case to others.
This actually reminds me of somethingthat I had said to each of you that
Asking you to join me in conversationby no means puts you on any mantle
of expertise or exceptionalism.

(08:25):
This is, this is the reminderof the constant work that it is.
So this one resonated with me.
It's thoughtful to consider, right?
Like, that this is an ongoing processbecause as white folks we're so used to
comfortability and to not having to be.

(08:49):
uncomfortable.
And in doing this work, itrequires us to be uncomfortable
and to feel all of those feelings.
I mean, I just felt themfor that minute that we sat.
My stomach was sick.
It still is.
Like, I feel a residual feeling just inthat minute of hearing all of those names.

(09:13):
And then when you say, shot seven timesin the back and Without even saying,
in front of his three children, right?
I mean, that, compounded,it's like, it's uncomfortable.
It's a lot easier for us as whitefolks, because we, you know, we don't
have to challenge ourselves, becauseeverything is so white centered.

(09:38):
And so, that's, that's the rub, andthat's what's being required of us.
today is to get uncomfortable.
And so I would say to, to this personis like, good for you for knowing that
this is a lifelong work, lifelong workand Just mention that, that it's easy

(09:59):
to say, it's easy to walk away from it.
It's easy to not stay in thefire of this conversation.
I agree, Chrissy.
And what came to me in the questionwas, yes, it, yes, for sure.
It does not end.
So it will not end for me.
It has not, but the word combatkind of like just stuck with me.

(10:21):
Like, I'm not sure I'd comeback, but what I wrote was a
friendly reframe of just disagree.
I think the work.
What I learned to do throughjust figuring it out the hard way
was, wow, people believe that.
And it took me, things that I couldn'timagine believing, that racism's over.

(10:43):
So I didn't have, that what came to me asyou were speaking, Chrissy, was something
that I find, have always found jarring.
But it took me a while to figureout how to talk about it, which was,
Oh, come on, slavery's over or, or Ididn't have slaves or something in that
milieu where I'm like, that's not nice.
It's I think my first, you know,simplistic instinct, but that's what

(11:06):
I think that comes from the sense thatlike, And so I guess I agree with what
Chrissy said to sort of invite theexploration and conversation is what
I've been preaching and doing myself.
So I'll pause there, butno would be the answer.
There's no way to end it for me.

(11:26):
. I so love this question.
You know, it makes me think of ifmy journey of interrogating, What is
basically the air that I've breathedand the water that I've been swimming in
my whole life and my ancestors life andin the last 500 years in this country,
if that could be, if that had an endpoint, I think we would have gotten
there, but I think it's going to takeall of us, we can, racism is not over.

(11:50):
So the idea that my, if I believethat my liberation, that my humanity
is connected to all other humans,and you've got to believe that
if you don't believe that, then.
That's fine, that's a differentargument, but I do, I actually sincerely
believe that until we're all seen andwe all matter, that no one matters.
And I actually, I want to matter.
I want to matter as a human.
And so for me, I know that I just,I've got to do a little bit of

(12:13):
work every day to understand whatI don't know as a white person.
Like all these words, privilege, andall the things we're throwing around.
I do have access.
Things have, my struggles have beeneasier than my colleagues of color.
And for me, I think I would.
Say to that person similarto my colleagues here.
I would share just from my own experience.
I actually don't believe that.
I believe it's not a journey.

(12:34):
I don't believe you cantake enough courses.
I don't think you can take enough action.
I don't think you canbuild enough friendships.
I believe that it's ongoing and Ibelieve that part of my practice
as a white person who believesThat, that gives me some benefit.
I want to not stop doing a littlebit every day, and maybe a lot
on some days, to undo this thing.
And if you feel that there's an endpoint, I support you in that belief,

(12:56):
but for me, I just have friends whoare hurting, and if I stop now, I
don't know how they stop hurting.
So I think I just focus it,not, I never want to judge.
I don't know more than anyone else.
I'm not an expert.
But I have my lived experience.
I know that people are hurting andI know that I can help support that
with just actions, interrupting,naming, as Jane said, disagreeing.

(13:20):
It's powerful to be like, Idon't, I just don't agree.
Maybe you have nothing else to say.
And maybe five years later, they've hadtwo other conversations and they're like,
Oh, remember when Jane said I disagree?
I get it.
What I'm hearing is, I've said this beforeon other calls, it's a muscle, right?
And when you go to the gym for thevery first time, you're going to be
sore the next day and you're goingto want to give up and not go back.

(13:44):
And it's that, that persistence.
of muscle getting stronger.
I might also add that, like,where's the checklist then?
Like, if you think there's agraduation point, like, what are
the things that you, that we haveto do to be good white people?
You know, and maybe that's the question.

(14:04):
Like, what is it, what do youthink that it, that it is for
somebody , who might say, well, Youknow, I have this and this and this.
It's like, well, okay.
Is that enough?
Is that
enough?
And what I'm also hearing in this isit's not good versus conscious, right?
An elevated consciousness of, am Itruly living in all of my consciousness

(14:27):
right now, am I living in a valuesystem that is most definitely
different from how I was raised,
?And where are those intersections?
Because good and bad can be binary.
Sometimes.
? And this is messy work.
This is imperfect work.
This is constant work.
So those, I mean, those are thequestions that I tend to ask myself in,

(14:51):
on this journey as a non white person,but also, you know, practitioner.
So keeping that in mind, likewhat is that checklist that
we are Aspiring to, if we are.
What does that involve?
And then, I want to tie that intosomething that Jane said earlier that
you used to talk about the work youdid as social justice undercover.

(15:15):
And there's no need to do that anymore.
Why?
Like, what is different aboutwhite folk talking about racism
and whiteness in this moment?
Why I used to say it that way wasbecause Going back just to set context.
I first got started doing anEEO investigator role in 1991.

(15:36):
So that's one context from my experience.
That wasn't undercover.
That was, we've got a problem.
This is a serious business.
But what led to the problem is what I'vespent the rest of my life focusing on.
When I was learning how to be adiversity person, practitioner,
The frame was affirmative action.

(15:57):
You know, we've evolved fromaffirmative action and legislated
everything to some middle groundaround celebrating differences.
And I signed up for it.
You know, I just thought that'swhat good was in diversity.
And by the way, it was good.
What I.
Always personally felt was Ican't forget why these diversity

(16:20):
initiatives even exist.
We may, they didn't spring out ofjust, you know, a magnanimous person
going, let's talk about differences.
So the anchors werealways important to me.
However, very distasteful to a lot ofthe people I was trying to influence.
So.
And I'll overgeneralize, but I was atJPMorgan Chase and I don't think they
were any different than any other bigcompany other than a real commitment, but

(16:42):
a sense of we've got to bring the majorityalong and just following government
mandates isn't going to be energizing, notenough of a business case, if you will.
So anyway, I liked to focuson the reality of some groups
are oppressed and some aren't.
It doesn't minimize the impact.

(17:02):
identity for you as a person,but the context was different.
And there became a moment in myexperience with diversity where it
was like, all differences matter,almost, Michael, kind of a, well, and
yes, we want to talk about all sortsof identity, anything and everything
that makes you, you is important.
But in the context of, Some groupshave been systemically excluded from

(17:25):
opportunity and everything else.
So I didn't, I used to think,you know, let me like know that
that's there as context, but notmake it part of the discussion.
What I saw after May 25th and GeorgeFloyd was killed was a, just that
dropped this, like, we will talk aboutjustice, social justice, racial justice.

(17:48):
So that's what I meanta long way around to go.
That shifted.
I thought, Oh, I, I, two years ago, wewere hiring at core where I worked a new
diversity leader and I said, Oh, I'm edgy.
I'm going to put the word equityright in the job description.
And I got pushed back for it bysome peers who said, I don't know,

(18:08):
I like inclusion and diversity.
And I went, yeah, but Let's try it.
Two years later, it's everywhere.
So that's the evolution I've been seeing.
So this reminds me of something thatChrissy had, and I think all three of
you probably brought up on a conversationwe earlier had about the white drift.
And how do we ensure thatThis moment sticks this time.

(18:34):
How do we ensure that people continueto do the work and not fall into a
space of comfort, complacency, memoryloss, whatever reasons, conscious
or unconscious, like, what is that?
How does one do that?
Michael, , when we first met, we bothcalled ourselves pokers, in a way, like,

(18:59):
we're just gonna poke the bear, , Ithink, it could be a simple, I'm gonna
just challenge this for a moment, andnot, not in a harmful way, but just,
just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just, like,push it to the little bit of the edge.
with this thought, with yourthought, whatever the thought is.
And then maybe it's sixmonths down the line.
And that, that happened to me in a cafe.

(19:21):
I just, I, I questioned afriend in her business practice.
I was working with her and in, ina small capacity and just, just
questioned, why aren't you includingpeople of color in this business?
Like, why is it so white centered?
Well, I don't, you know, I don't workwith people of color, so why would I?

(19:42):
And You know, the, the day that GeorgeFloyd died, she, she contacted me and
I had created from that a brave circle,which I've been doing every other week.
And now what it's turnedinto is an education circle.
And it's where we're talking aboutmodern gynecology being born in

(20:05):
the, on the backs of slave women.
We're, we're talking aboutthe women's movement.
and how, where the divide happened withwhite and black women, for example, and
like, you know, decolonizing our food.
And talk about attrition, you know, westarted in the beginning with about,
there was about 30 of us, and nowthere's a solid 15, which is fine.

(20:27):
It's amazing, but We'reeducating ourselves.
And so, and she and me, she calledme, I was like, come to the circle.
And so, it's that.
It's like, let's justkeep showing up in ritual.
Keep showing up and talking about it.
Chrissy,
love you.

(20:48):
Folks, There is something, please not,we cannot work alone, that's the best
way to drift, to be in isolation, to notbe in constant conversation, to not find
a circle like Chrissy's talking about,to not join a local chapter of showing
up for racial justice, right, which isthe largest national organization for
white folks aspiring to be anti racist.

(21:11):
Find a space in which you'reconstantly what, because what we're
doing is reprogramming our minds.
Like, I literally around mehave post it notes about how to
reprogram how I show up in space.
I work in a a black indigenouspeople of color space.
I'm one of two white folks.
I have to be mindful that my bodyas a white person is not neutral.
It is triggering.
I look like the slave, the person whoowned the enslaved people from Africa.

(21:34):
So for me, I.
I think of it in a few differentlevels, depending on who I'm talking to.
But I start with, don't do the work alone.
And white culture has taught us thatwe can be the savior, I can solve it
on my own, I can be the leader, I canbe president of the United States,
and I can own that land across theMississippi and take it from someone.
Like, the I I I, of the Americanpromise is the most dangerous thing.

(21:57):
The current president of thisUnited States never used the word
we until his inauguration speech.
The entire, the entire campaign, healways said, I will do, I will do, I
will make this happen, I will solve.
Yeah, what has been solved is whatI want to know with an I person.
I want to be with a we person.
So, I'm getting myself all revved up.
Let me just say one otherthing and then take a breath.

(22:20):
Let's not work alone.
And the other piece is, thereare some practical things.
We have got to stay in this.
And if you want to know a surefireway of staying in it, watch 8
minutes and 45 seconds of thatcop's knee on George Floyd's neck.
Watch it once a week.
Watch it once a month.
If you cannot get racism, and systemicracism, into your heart and soul

(22:43):
and make it a moral imperative,that's a great way to do it.
I do not advocate for people ofcolor ever watching that video.
Do not need to.
But I encourage white folks to do it.
Folks, it's so gruesome, it's so,No, no, no, no, no, that is the thing
that has been happening for centuries.
We don't see it.
And now that is an example.
And so every Tuesday morning, I takean eight minute and 45 second pause.

(23:08):
Not every Tuesday do I watchit, but once a month I watch it.
And the other days I just sit in silencefor eight minutes and 46 seconds.
And I review a list of all of theblack folks who have been murdered
by the police or vigilantes.
You know why I do that?
I'm not saying this to be dramatic.
See If I do not reprogram the fact thatI can move through the world and never

(23:28):
do that, and be totally fine and behealthy, be safe, if I don't reprogram
how I move through the world, then It'snot going to stay a moral imperative.
It's not going to stayin my consciousness.
I am daily reprogramming thingsabout myself that I didn't know.
And I'm angry about that because I havebeen sold, I've been racialized to be
white with no sense of my ancestry, nosense of my cultural ancient practices.

(23:52):
I don't know them.
I'm a disconnected white person.
And I'm trying, I'm on a, a, a struggleto become more spiritually grounded.
Very interested in work, like folkslike Chrissy are doing, the work
around semantics, where we're trying torealize that racism is in our bodies.
So when I think of white drift, tocome back to the question, Farah,
and then colleagues, I will stop.

(24:14):
I think that we have to thinkabout the daily reprogramming.
Of so much of what weknow that is comfortable.
One of my colleagues says, when youthink you want to do something in a
multiracial space as a white person,pause, stop, and do the opposite.
Just try that for like a year.
You end up building community.
Alright, I'm done.

(24:34):
No, take five deep breaths.
Yes!
Take five deep breaths.
My apologies folks, a lot of air time.
No, no, that was all needed to be said.
I loved it.
I think it was the picking upfrom both what Christy and Michael
said was Talking, keep talking.
It's so simple, but talking to each other.

(24:55):
I have become obsessed aboutreminding myself and in my formal
work, that I had the assumptiontoo, I think, but at some point, so
I might as well get it out there.
I really like Robin D'Angelo,and I respect her work.
I know she's become a bitof a polarizing person.

(25:17):
So I don't want to go way down intothat, but I want to acknowledge
something that I learned from her.
And it was about examining whitenessand white racial literacy and, you
know, all of the closing of gaps ofinformation, but, and also acknowledging.
But one of the things that, , I wasnoticing was this thing Assumption

(25:37):
that for me as a white person to do,to have dialogue that's constructive
about racism, I should talk to blackpeople, I should talk to people of
color, I should, and , I don't need to.
I, it's not that I can't, but it's whitepeople talking to each other that I think
has, I've seen create a lot more growth.
And that also keeps us out of that zoneof educate me, educate me again, please

(26:02):
tell me again why racism is real, so.
We have a lot of white people.
We're all around each other.
It's hard, because I saw inthe chat a question for an
experience, but um, that was all.
I just wrote down the word, justtalk, but with a deliberateness
about who we talk to.
You know, as, as I'm hearing you all talkabout being the poker and action, right?

(26:25):
Like I, Michael talkedabout , what am I doing?
What does that look like?
Chrissy talking about how, , where canI interrupt Jane talking about that?
I am thinking about the phrase, theconcept, leveraging your privilege, right?
And we're reading a lot about,, leverage your privilege to a

(26:46):
point where it's at risk to you.
And I'm curious to hear yourthoughts about that, if that
is part of your practice.
What that looks like.
It's an interesting question.
Because I, for myself, I don't wantto harm, I don't want to harm other

(27:12):
people, I don't want to harm myself.
But it's important to interrogate,you know, my relatives, for
example, and know my place.
And also know that white silence is whatcaused and what perpetuated what we have.

(27:35):
And it's, it's caused.
Also, more than 50 percent of whiteeducated women to vote for a man
who admitted he had physicallyabused and, and does that, a serial
physical abuser over another woman.

(27:56):
He admitted that.
And so that silence, I have tokeep myself on the fire, but I also
need to think about that for me.
I have to think about and, and,and it goes back to the practice
for me of, of yoga and wellness.
And I learned this, this is what Ilearned with Citizen Well, was do the

(28:17):
practice, then have the conversations.
So, so, so the classes would be thatwe would show up as radical practice.
And it was a class on, for example,like, uh, saying sanctuary, right?
And, and being at home.
What does that mean?

(28:37):
And so you're, you come in allsoft and fuzzy and comfortable and
you do postures that might makeyou feel slightly uncomfortable
and push your edge a little bit.
And then you meditate.
And then there's promptsand questions intimately.
So everyone is asked to exercise theirvoice intimately one on one, right?

(28:58):
And answer these.
You know, uncomfortable questions.
And then we come together in a groupwhere we've already exercised our
voice in, in co located spaces.
Right.
And then we can all, so, and I mean,BIPOC and white folks, and then we all
speak as a group and then we get DACA, andthen we talk about who we need to call.

(29:19):
And then we talk aboutwhat needs to happen.
We do that with education.
We do that with racism.
We did that with, youknow, women's health.
And so it's always rooted and grounded.
In that space of
breath and connection to the breathand like exactly like Michael
you when you were talking and youwere like I'm getting fired up.

(29:41):
It's like yes, we're gonna get fired up,but it's like Come back to that place
that center so that I can have theseso I can push myself But then also know
that you know, i'm not running my mouth.
I'm not pushing them away I'm actuallyjust planting a seed like jane talked
about, you know, and michael talkedabout like we're just planting seeds

(30:02):
You Because we're not gonna, like, rallythe ones that are already over there,
you know, who are anti NFL, maybe.
But we might be able to shift someonewho's questioning it by just planting a
seed in our own steadiness, in our own,
groundedness.

(30:23):
. The thing I didn't say when I was thinkingof Robin DiAngelo, I think because
I got into my head about, oh, whereare people going to be around Robin?
And so that's just interesting to me.
But the thing she said in a workshopthat I wanted to spit out was the
most hostile environments for peopleof color, black people in particular.

(30:43):
are those where thereis unexamined whiteness.
And this stuck with me.
This was four years ago when I, Iheard this, and it's never left me.
So then I say, what can I do?
It's like the idea of justkeep examining myself, my own
identity, and that helped me a lot.
. , there's so many layers to it.

(31:04):
You know, I'm thinking, um, Youknow, as we talk about how do we
leverage our privilege, right?
It's like, what are those words?
What does leverage mean?
Feels like
too capitalist.
Privilege has been bandied aroundand sort of reversed and done.
But for me, it's like, what do I, wheredo I align with the systems and the people
making the systems and the structuresand where can I Talk to them and push

(31:26):
against those structures and systemsand know that I'm still gonna be okay.
I'll be uncomfortable and I don'twant to make the phone call and I
don't want to have the conversation.
I don't want to show up for the whateverit is at the local police department,
but I'm not gonna actually die.
And there's a quote I wanted to read.
John Brown, famous, fierce,abolitionist, anti racist, so anti

(31:46):
racist he would burn stuff down.
Anyway, And, and like leveragedhis entire family for racism.
He says this thing that wheneverI'm like, how far could I go?
This is how far I cannot yet go, butI'm going towards this direction.
I only have a short time to live,only one death to die, and I
will die fighting for this cause.

(32:08):
There will be no peace in this land,what we call the United States.
until slavery is done for.
John Brown, Kansas, 1856.
Well, if he was living today,he'd be like, it's not done.
Slavery is not over.
When we look at the prison system, whenwe look at people who are actually, by the
systems and structures, so marginalized.

(32:31):
So that's my benchmark.
I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm working towardsbeing willing to literally die.
I'm so, if die is right here,I'm like a third of the way.
But for me, that means, am I willing tomess with the folks who run my building
because the folks at the front deskare actually not getting health care.
But I paid money to the whitepeople who run the building.

(32:55):
They're gonna still take my money, evenif I say, Folks, can we investigate
why there's no health insurance forthe security staff at the front desk?
Is that big?
That's not even big!
That's like, I'm going tostill have my apartment.
I still have my money to pay my rent.
So it's, I'm just trying tofigure out what do I have and
where can I push and pull.
And be totally as uncomfortable as I can,up until the point of death, and I'm not

(33:19):
even getting that close, but I'm trying,I, I'm laughing at myself because there
are things that I'm so uncomfortable to dothat when I go back to this quote, which
is my touchstone, I go, I'm not gonna die.
So what money do I have?
What contacts do I have?
What relationships do I have?
Who will take my phone call?
I remember, I come from the, you know,theater sector primarily, and I remember

(33:40):
the day where I was in a funder meeting,and I was so fed up with the inequities
in philanthropy, and I started this thingthat I then passed on to other people.
At the end of the funder meeting,no matter how it went, I went,
oh, before I go, can I share withyou five other theater companies
I'd love for you to support?
And they were all theaters of color,or queer theaters, or theaters that I

(34:00):
knew were even more marginalized thanmy little scrappy theater company.
To just be like, I don't know ifyou know who these people are.
I love them.
I love their work.
Just keep your eye out for them.
That is to me just like, alittle bit of what we can do.
I'm in the thunder room.
I'm there with the head of the,insert it, name of foundation.
In this case, it was Mellon Foundation.

(34:22):
Wasn't the head, butsomewhere way up high.
That's what I think about every day.
What room am I in?
And is there something I could do to pushand pull that someone will listen to and
I will still live at the end of the day?
But maybe the system thatadvantages me will support someone.
Yes, as I'm listening to you I'mthinking about myself as a light skinned
South Asian identifying person in thiscountry, as I'm working through my own

(34:46):
identity and working on the practice.
Um, as that outside eye in leadershipand organizational development,
and , I'm curious about what thesame question looks like, when there
are other folk in the room who arenot white, when there are other folk

(35:07):
in the room whose identities aremarginalized and historically oppressed.
What does the same concept?
Look like them
what is the responsibility there?
What is the discomfort there?
Yeah, I I just want to share . I wasgoing to a school that was predominantly

(35:29):
kids of color There was about I wouldsay 70 to 75 percent black and then
I would say another 10 or 15 percentchildren of immigrants and And my child,
my children fall into that category.
And the one black teacher got fired.
And I called a meeting with theprincipal to exactly what Michael

(35:56):
was saying, like to To questionthat, to, you know, cause I can.
And in doing that, I gotpushback from black folks.
Why are you stepping into theconversation of race, white lady?
And I got, I got real uncomfortable.

(36:16):
I questioned what I was doing, but I,But I didn't stop doing what I was doing,
and I didn't let up, even if it wascalling up higher than the principal,
even if it was questioning, asking himto question all of the principals, to
have leadership reflect the student body.

(36:39):
that they are serving.
And, and so it can get realuncomfortable, especially if there
are, because it's about the person.
Not everybody is going to identify incertain ways and believe in certain
things just because their skintone is a, is darker than my skin.

(37:02):
So , it's, it can be challenging.
And I think, again, it goes back tobeing okay with being uncomfortable,
speaking up, even when your voiceshakes and just really quick.
I was at a theater.
I was at a show Antigone in Ferguson.
And after the show, I wastrembling because I wanted to
say something, but I didn't.
I wasn't, I was afraid to speak up.

(37:24):
And there were so many great thingsbeing spoken, so I didn't, you know,
my voice didn't need to be in there.
But there was a woman who said,When you're scared, stand up
because the fear is sitting onyour lap and it'll fall right off.
And
I was like, thank
gosh, Farrah, I
think it's so situational.

(37:46):
Wow.
You know, what's the dynamic?
Who's most impacted?
What's your relationshipwith the other folks?
I want to answer your question and ofcourse not speak for folks who have a
different identity than me, but whenI've been in like mixed race spaces.
If this helps, as someone who workswith organizational development, I

(38:07):
know Jane, you've been in the internalspace of organizational shift.
There is a comfort that's panderedto and it's white comfort, right?
Oh, equity is going to ruffle feathers.
Let's just stay with DNI.
. Or yeah, let's do ourunconscious bias training.
Um, but no, our partnersdon't need to come for it.
The rest of the people can,

(38:28):
That's what it looks like verysimplistically organizationally, but
then in the work culture, in the dayto day spaces of microaggressions,
of biases being explicit.
What does that look like when acollegial group of people come together
that, that has mixed identities.
And when you see something.
And, and you have that choice, right?

(38:50):
As someone said, choice, the abilityto have choice is a form of privilege.
This is what's comingup for me with that one.
First, I have my daughterand mother are here.
So this is something profound tome to have this generational thing.
So, but I have a niece who's 12and a couple years ago, she did a
speech at her school on bullying.

(39:12):
And I don't think I fully heard of thephrase upstander, but she talked about it.
Right.
She was shaking and brave.
Her mom didn't really want her to do itbecause she thought she'd be too nervous.
Um, Tess knew she needed to speak.
It's beautiful.
But this issue of in the moment is, iswhat it, why it stuck with me so much

(39:33):
that it's a moment that when I have.
You know, before tests, like the, themoment of advocacy or a moment of truth
where you have a choice because we're ina majority group when the risk is lower.
Sometimes I've done this like,well, is it harder for me or is
it harder for the black person?
You know, it's always goingto be harder for them.
It's hard for me too, but I feel likerelatively what I'll lose is different.

(39:58):
It's exactly what Michael said.
And the other thing that I've seen happen,so this is, you know, just in a, a company
in Delaware, just to set the context.
majority white company located inrural Maryland, so if I were prone to
generalizing, which I am not progressiveat all, this was the biggest culture

(40:18):
shock I ever went through that I didn'tanticipate, my daughter as well, because
there was a sense of why should we?
I described it this way, I think to youFarah, so as a diversity practitioner
at Gore after, it was like 2000, 2008,we started doing something called
conversations for understanding.

(40:39):
Colon race, because it was already clear.
Like this is a different level ofeverything, but by 2014, we weren't
solving, we could see the same trend linepatterns around attrition engagement.
And what it took was, um, I guess amirror my own to say, you know, I'm

(41:02):
part of this problem and here's how,when I learned to be a diversity person,
train the trainers to facilitate.
oversimplifying, but the generalguidance I remember getting was,
okay, if slavery comes up, I'llreference back to that civil rights,
you know, acknowledge, but redirect.

(41:22):
It's just best to redirect.
And all that redirecting kept us whitepeople comfortable, to your point, Farah.
And so, I made that like a personal,I'm not redirecting anymore.
Okay.
This is the whole problem.
We, including me, including someone who,you know, studied a little bit, even in
college, do not know enough about thecontext for race in America, racism.

(41:44):
So, Once I made that choice, Irealized a couple other people,
our CEO, very senior people in ourcompany were equally frustrated,
but we didn't have the knowledge.
So it didn't go fast, but we startedjust working on ourselves first.
And what, so I'll share this one, ablack fellow associate who was a partner

(42:08):
leader, co leader of this project calledthe race project said, after a workshop,
I'm not proud of this, but I'll say it.
He said, Jaina, I didn't think it waspossible for y'all to be this dumb,
this, this, and I said, yeah, I know.
He goes, but now I see it's true.

(42:30):
He had previously thought it was fake,that we were like willfully racist.
So weirdly for him, it was freeingto go, wow, you really are this dumb.
And I said, all right,now let's keep working.
That didn't solve it.
But that was a moment.
I think that helped him as well as aperson of color realizing that not letting
white people off the hook, but likeunderstanding the depth of the problem.

(42:52):
I think that was big.
I love that.
It is, it's both willfuland unwillful ignorance.
I was thinking far, your question hadme, I was trying to put myself in a
room, you know, around the table at work,multiracial table, and something happens.
And what do I do in that moment?
Like, what are the calculations?

(43:12):
So, I, you know, I ask myself,do I know what just happened?
Can I name it?
Or am I just uncomfortable?
Something happened and I'm not quite sure.
Am I willing to just say,oh, folks, just a moment.
There's a little, something'suncomfortable in the room.

(43:33):
Not quite sure, I can't figure it out.
Is anyone else feeling that?
Because some, you hope, You hopeyou've got a colleague that's
going to join you in that.
But I ask myself, am I theperson to interrupt it right now?
Is it in service of what?
Me being the woke, smart, white person?
And is now the time to do it?

(43:53):
Is it now, or is that a sideconversation I'm going to have with Bob?
Now, sometimes a side conversationwith Bob still leaves the folks hurt
not knowing anything is happening.
So, I just do that kind of calculation.
What are the dynamics of the room?
Who is this in service of?
Am I the right person?
Now's the moment or not?
And then am I gonna name the specificaction or just name my discomfort?

(44:15):
And that's, that's what I had to learn.
I'm not saying, hey Bob, that was racist.
That ain't gonna help.
I could say, oh Bob, what you justsaid just makes me uncomfortable.
I just want to share that.
That's.
You know, I've been trying tolearn and that's just a word.
I don't know folks havetold me not to use it.
I'm trying not to use I just want to sharethat with you feel free to use it, but

(44:35):
it just made me uncomfortable I want tolet you know I don't say Joe, who's the
person of color is offended by your word?
John i've lost track of my characters hereBut so I it's a calculation in the moment
that only comes with either chrissy orjane said it's like what is the practice?
of interruption and not solving I usedto think I had to solve it and have the

(44:56):
answer for the moment You But what'smore powerful is to just interrupt.
Or, or you can say, I'm just tryingto think of all my tactics, right?
Someone says something and I go, Chrissy,tell me a little bit more about that.
Like, I'm, it's totallywrong what they're saying.
And I go, huh, interesting.
I've never thought about it that way.

(45:17):
Tell me a little bit more.
And sometimes peoplebacktrack in their thinking.
When they talk out loud about, whenthey say things like, well, you
know those people, they're lazy.
And I go, oh, Joe, what are you, I'msorry, I don't know that I understand,
which people are you talking about?
You know the, insertthe name of the people.
And I go, oh, that's so interesting.
Where do you get that from?
Like, what does that, youknow, that's not my lived

(45:38):
experience, I'd love to know more.
And when you get people to think abouttheir logic, they sometimes go, oh, you
know, maybe, yeah, and maybe it doesn'tsolve it, but they're like, flustered.
And I love, I think that's,they should be flustered.
Racism flusters us, you know.
So, anyway, I was trying to getpractical for our, like, when
I'm in those, you know, Moments.

(46:01):
What do you do?
That's skill in action right there.
You named it.
, I'm just thinking about, you know,The fumbling that I did, right?
It wasn't skill in action.
It was like what is happening?
Shaking my fists, going in, you know,and I didn't go in alone I went in with

(46:24):
a person of color and I went in withanother white chick, but like, you know,
we There, it is, it requires us beingokay as perfectionists and whiteness is,
there's a perfection in whiteness, right?
And this is one of our hang ups , andpart of it is like a being okay
with being wrong, you know, feelingthat feeling of defensiveness,

(46:49):
you
know, and just sittingand stewing in that.
And that's, That's skill.
That, that requires some work.
And then it's, it's finding these waysto, you know, to go at it and to, you
know, to imagine the scenario, but like,then go, go in it and, you know, and,

(47:11):
and speak on it in a way that's skillful,that isn't going to cause more harm.
Farah,
can I share one example?
Please.
Just happened to me last week.
I'm literally on a panel.
Hmm.
And afterwards, we're debriefing.
Two of us are white, the rest arefolks of color, and we've gotten along.

(47:32):
We love each other.
It's the second panel we've done.
We're going to try to dosome more things together.
We were thrown together, but it's a good.
And the white person starts to tella story and is a fierce anti racist.
It's all this training, like,I'm learning from this human.
I love this human.
And they talk to tellthe story about a friend.
And then they, they change theirtone and they actually start
talking like they're a black friend.

(47:53):
And they may do that with theirfriend, but I'm a stranger to that.
And I'm like, is a white person intoning?
A black person, not that there'sone way to speak as a black person.
And I'm like, am I, andwe've, we're exhausted.
We've done this long paneland we're everybody's late.
It's for me, I'm on the East coast.
They were all on the West coast.
And I'm like, did I just hear that?

(48:14):
I did hear that more time goes by we'rewrapping up and I don't say anything.
And I cannot sleep.
I knew, I knew I was white silence.
Here I am.
This is what the work I do for my living.
All my practices I named at the beginningof this call, the reprogramming.
Michael, you did hear it.
You know what happened.
And you were the person to call it out.

(48:34):
The other white person.
So I just write the whiteperson the next day.
And they respond exactly the way I think.
Because they're an anti racist person.
Oh my gosh.
Thank you.
I felt it.
I didn't know what to do blah blahblah blah blah They write an apology
to the whole group meanwhile One ofthe other person people had reached
out and I was like, okay We can mess upand not do it in the moment And there's

(48:55):
no time to beat myself up about it.
Can I still address it after the fact?
If I can't do it the firsttime, can I in the next morning?
I just I woke up like Igotta write this person.
Um, and there's liberation on theother side of that I felt like I had
done a little bit to interrupt thatperson felt like they were supported
in being in in being challenged

(49:17):
And because they told the other people ofcolor that we had that conversation the
other folks of color were like, oh, thankyou Glad something happened in that moment
that no one named it So hopefully there'sa second chance or a third chance in
these moments and sometimes there's not.
The moment goes by.
Don't beat yourself up and wegotta do better the next time.
And I would say that you might, you,there may or may not be a second or

(49:39):
third chance for that situation, butguaranteed there will be a second and
third chances in life and life situations.
Right?
So what I'm hearing isthe work is never perfect.
The skill is a constant practice.
What I'm also hearing is the intersectionof in the learning, , there might be

(50:01):
certain areas because of our practice,we might have gotten comfortable with.
right?
It's like, okay, here I candefinitely show up, but here
I'm still learning, right?
And that, and those can coexist together.
Like I can, I am a really goodpoker in these environments.

(50:21):
I need to get a betterin these environments.
I love how you've broken down for usmichael And you know all of you have
broken down your internal processes,which is so helpful because it's not
the same And the way I look at it iswhat and who am I needs to be centered
or am I intentionally centering right?

(50:42):
Is my practice Of poking because Ineed to get better at poking speaking
for someone in that moment That'snot going to be helpful So do I
need to take that somewhere else?
And there is a lot that happens inthat moment and I think that's that
rewiring that all of you are talkingabout of Not just think before act,

(51:03):
but all the contextual pieces, theintersectional pieces, the nuanced
pieces, and not letting go of it, right?
Okay, this was a missed opportunity.
Happens to me as well.
Think about it for weeks later.
And then that holding self accountableto, okay, the next time, it's not
gonna get passed if I'm in the room.
And practice with a buddy.
I have three buddies.

(51:24):
When I get really fragile or Itotally mess up and I didn't know
what to do, I'm like, Hey, insertname of one of these three people.
Can we play this out?
Like what are three other ways?
I could have done that?
'cause I didn't know what to do.
. . And we support each other that way.
If roleplaying, it's so powerfulto get it in our bodies.
This is why theater folks,I'm like, we ain't God.
No reason not to be doing this work.
Get in your body.

(51:45):
Muscle memory.
Muscle memory
The opportunity to be in on a repeat modeis in a team like I've, you know, with
a corporate context in an organization,I could see over and over again.
And I still believe this, that a lotof value comes from teams deciding.

(52:07):
To commit to being anti racist togetherand, or whatever the commitment is.
At Gore years ago, unintentionallya practice started because we
introduced the idea of microinequities, microaggressions, and it
got into the language in a way thatteams were saying, wait a minute,
Was that a micro, micro inequity?

(52:27):
And they were, at first I was alittle tense because I thought it's
kind of serious, you know, don't turnit into something until I got over
myself and said, this is brilliant.
Teams are self regulatingbecause they cared enough.
And it was awkward, but it, it wasthe muscle thing that was built
within a team to examine theirinteractions with each other and.

(52:50):
So that, that, the teamopportunity is big.
And also checking ourselves tosee if it's performative, you
know, and like getting the cookie.
Are we, am I here to, because , I wantto look like the one who's the most
woke in the room, because, and that'shappening a lot these days, right?
Like there's, people are wakingup, so it's like, , I want to keep

(53:13):
speaking up, and it's just a matterof just, just checking ourselves.
Cause we're gonna be wrongand messy and uncomfortable.
And, you know, it's okay.
Can we talk about the performativespace of, , allyship and.
Advocacy
I think if I have an opportunity,if someone is really leaning

(53:36):
in, sorry, let me be specific.
If a white person is really leaningin to these values and wanting to
learn and wanting to change, and theydo something performative, I think
it's an opportunity to bring themin, in a more genuine, authentic way.
And I almost feel like when we'reat the beginning of our journey,
There's a natural performativething that happens because it isn't
natural for us to be anti racist.

(53:59):
As human beings who are grounded,I think we can feel injustice.
But to be an anti racist is indeed apractice, as we've talked about from
the beginning of this conversation.
And so, I am trying, we don'thave enough white people leaning
in as hard as we need to.
Otherwise, racism would be over.
This is ours to eliminate.

(54:21):
So I am willing, if the performance, Ifthe person performing, including myself,
because I have grace for my old self thatwas much more performative than I am now,
if they're leaning in and that can moveinto more concrete, authentic actions,
I'm game to engage that person.

(54:42):
I don't have time to stand in judgmentof other white people trying to lean in.
I do have some judgment for hostile whitepeople who aren't embracing these values,
and even them I will be generous with.
So I, I think I'm thinkingof performativity not as bad
or good, but is it in route?
Is it well intentioned inroute to wanting to do more?

(55:02):
And that's different from I'm juston Facebook and that's all I do.
Yeah, it's a great question.
Everyone's talking about performativity.
That phrase, yeah, I think it's a socialjustice phrase that's been around.
I don't know the full origin, buthere's my interpretation of it.
Or how I check myself.
And so I offer this as a possible lens.

(55:23):
Which is, who am I saying this to?
Who do I want to hear this?
And why?
And because my interpretationis performative in this
context is, I actually believeit's a well intended thing.
Most of the time.
So I'm often doing my best to think,Okay, if someone just wants to tell

(55:43):
me, so making it real, how many blackpeople they know, or that they've read a
certain book, And they're announcing it.
I think, why would they, there,there's no probable negative intention
there, and this brings up one of thetop 10, or 1 million, I'm not sure,
frames for diversity and inclusionwork, certainly in the workplace,

(56:06):
and I'm sure everywhere, which isthat Dilemma of intent and impact.
Positive intent doesn't negate thatyou could create a negative impact.
So I'll usually use that frame if I think,okay, this is a little performative.
And if it's in a group and it's myrole, and I think this could be , not

(56:28):
helpful, then I'll inquire about that.
, what's your interest in sharing that?
And then this sounds like I'm goingto preach, but to try to create a
discussion about , intention and impact.
And good intention is good, but why'dyou have to say it is one thing.
I, a recent conversation, butthere's no easy, I, I guess that's

(56:49):
why I'll put a period there, but formyself to ask, what's my interest?
Why do I want people toknow that I'm reading this?
Because I don't want to be a badwhite person, and that's not helpful.
So I think in those cases, Itell myself, all right, feel good
with myself and then move on.
This is actually reinforcingwhere we started around the

(57:11):
work is not for expertise.
But what I'm also hearing here,louder than even earlier, is that the
work is about bringing people along.
That's the work.
To Michael's point, don't do italone, do it with people, right?
And why are you doing it?
Why are you putting up this post?
Who, who do you want to hear it?
Like I have folk around me, nonwhite, who have been very activated

(57:31):
in a performative way, but theexpect, the why is, People need to
now be on board because I'm on board.
And if they are not, then that's the workthat just, it doesn't end with a post.
But what, what is that responsibility todig in and engage and have those difficult
conversations, navigate the hostility.

(57:54):
Speaking of hostility, what have youfound to be effective in responding to
strong resistance, perhaps even hostility,in discussions regarding white privilege
and white supremacy?
I think it depends onhow, what hostile means.
Because white people, sometimeswe use words like violence
and hostile and oppressive.
And it's because the line at Starbuckswas too long, and you couldn't get

(58:17):
your latte, or I couldn't get my latte.
How's your day?
Oh my god, it started off, I wasso oppressed, I could not get
my latte, it took 25 minutes.
No, no, no, that's not oppression.
So love this question.
If it's a violent environment, like peopleare like, Physically, I don't do that.
Like, I don't, I can't engage in that.
But if people are just beingstubborn, I just try to be curious

(58:38):
and ask, can you tell me a littlebit more about how you feel?
Where does that come from?
Depends on specificallywhat they say, right?
Can I just, can I go a little bitfurther and have them explain themselves?
to me.
I'm trying to, I'm trying to thinkof a recent example, you know,
someone who's like white privilege.
I grew up in insert poor class, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(58:59):
And I go, I hear you.
And if I can use my personalexperience, I then do, I get you.
I come from folks, white folkswho didn't have anything.
I get you.
And then I try to get into a place whereit's not, I hear their personal story.
I affirm their personal story.
And then I try to get it away fromthe personal after that to be.

(59:21):
You know, I feel similar inmany ways where I used to.
This is why I feel differently now.
And now I've been lookingat some statistics.
I never should have gotten thatbank loan, given the stats of
Black folks in the same community.
I got rushed to the hospital 10 minutesfaster than Black folks in my community.
Like, I actually started looking atstatistics, and I was like, I was trying

(59:42):
to make sense of these statistics.
So I try to share part ofmy own learning journey.
Because it doesn't help meto be like, you're racist.
I'm not going to talkto you, but it's hard.
It's so hard.
I fail at this all the time.
The people who are like whiteprivilege, everybody's talking
about white privilege or if classcomes in, that's a good distractor.
I don't have all the,sometimes I'm successful.
I'm often probably.

(01:00:04):
48 percent successful.
And that just means they stay in theconversation and the rest of the time,
I don't navigate it well, but I thinkI try to listen, have empathy for
the story, understand where they'recoming from, and then somehow tie it
to my own learning and evolution as aperson who had some similar thoughts
to them, and then get to the systemicpiece because it's not about them.

(01:00:25):
That person didn't create racismand I didn't either, but we've
all been racialized in that systemand we've benefited from it.
So I don't know.
I fail with the hostile peopleall the time, but I try.
And by hostile, I mean thefolks just being stubborn and
not really wanting to engage.
Here's an example that I found hostile.
And again, with my, this is in Maryland.

(01:00:47):
I'm really bad mouthing Maryland.
Forgive me, Maryland.
In the workplace, it was awomen's, Global Women's Day thing.
Sort of a, put notes up on thewall what you're committing to,
to support women's equality.
And one of the notessaid, All lives matter.
No, no, no.
It was worse.

(01:01:07):
It said make America great again.
Worse for me.
And I think that's hostile.
Okay.
And I, you know, point myself,censor, I take it down and got, and
everyone said, Oh, this particularplant leader, . It's, it's.
central casting, kind of white personwho isn't supportive, is quiet about it

(01:01:29):
mostly, but I went to him and said, sothis is also a lesson in , I knew him for
a while, so this wasn't that brave, andwe had sort of a hard won relationship.
And I say, so, I heard you're mad, I tookit down, and he goes, yeah, why, why Jane?
And I said, Wayne, do you knowthat for gay people, black people,

(01:01:52):
uh, many, many people, that readslike, make America white again.
I just explained, , from my perspective,my understanding of the impact
Beyond politics, , that it feelsaggressive and hostile and dangerous.
And this is in a public spacewhere we have associates from
all over the world and customers.
So he said, I didn't know that.

(01:02:14):
I had a choice in thatmoment to go, really?
You didn't know that?
But I chose to go, okay.
Now that you know, he goes,I'm glad you took it down.
And I mean, it was a weirdly easyclosed loop transaction, but moved on.
So it, and I do believe him that he didn'tfully know that our associates bringing

(01:02:34):
it into our company is what got him.
So making it real for people he caresabout, I think, and our reputation.
This is a great question.
I guess for me, it's a matter ofunderstanding the proximity to power.
So I have to check myproximity to power, right?
Which is often very, very close to power.

(01:02:56):
And then who am I speaking with?
And if I'm speaking someone, predominantlya cisgendered white male, I'm going
to know my I'm gonna know that I,I, that they're not willing to give
stuff up and they're not my audience.
Chances are, they'renot quite my audience.

(01:03:19):
My audience is more the white women.
And honestly, the educated whitewomen that voted for Donald Trump.
That's, that's who I feellike there's the get.
Now, if it, if it, if the conversationis opened and I had a moment, I don't

(01:03:39):
usually do it on the social media, butI did, I had a weak moment and I was
like, I won't let this go, you know?
And then I was like, why?
But I actually, you know, it was likean old childhood friend and, and, and
it became about the question of class.
You know, looking at that, at class,and I was like, look, exactly what

(01:04:01):
Michael said, like, you got theloans that they were never able to
get just because of their name, justbecause of the color of their skin.
They were not allowed to, they weren'tinvited into these neighborhoods.
generations ago.
And so, step back.

(01:04:21):
And then I said, and of course you don'tand aren't willing to see this because
it's going to ask you to give up so much.
And why would you want to do that?
I mean, we can see it right now.
White men, cisgendered,are clasping at the power.

(01:04:42):
They're doing everything they can,including lying bold face to us.
And people are acceptingit, because they are.
Well, what we're going to get,we're going to lose stuff.
And yes, we are.
And we are going to have torealize that we are going to lose

(01:05:04):
things in gaining our own freedom.
We, in order to fully liberate.
Everyone, we need to give something up.
We need to shift ourselvesaway from that power center.
We have to, we have to bewilling to give something up.

(01:05:25):
Right.
And what is it
that we're willing to give up?
I don't know.
I'm ready.
Chrissy.
See, this is why you don't work alone.
So, Chris, when you said, that's notyour audience, that would be great.
Now that we know each other, and if wewere in the same community, you'd be

(01:05:46):
like, hey, Michael, can you talk to him?
Right?
Like, part of us addressing thesethings is knowing who is the best
person to, and being in solidarity.
Because when you are, you can bein the same room and be like, you
got this, or I got this, right?
We could be in the same room, and yougive me the eye, like, can you take him?
Because I am not going to go there.
And I will interrupt.
Like, I love that.
So, I love that, what you said, and I waslike, You're so right about liberation.

(01:06:10):
It is so liberating on the other side.
When you, when I find those momentsof bravery, even using that word
makes me laugh at myself sometimes.
Because a lot of times what Janepointed out is often times people
don't know what they don't know.
And most people, when they seebetter, or what's that phrase?

(01:06:32):
Oh my gosh, I forget the quote.
When people know better, they do better.
I gotta look it up.
I think it's a woman of color.
I hate quoting thingswhen I don't remember.
But doing, folks want to do better.
I think innately we want to.
And they just sometimesneed it pointed out, so.
Thank you for the quote, when you knowbetter, you do better, by Maya Angelou.

(01:06:54):
Thank you, thank you all.
I'm leaving with an affirmation.
Because in the work that I'm doing,my work is around a lot of white
people, and I have been saying, untilsomeone tells me that it's problematic
to say that I need to be around morewhite anti racist practitioners.
Because I can go up to a point andthen I need someone to give the baton

(01:07:16):
to so , that's part of my reason forfor doing this Thank you all so much
for your candor for your courage foryour vulnerability for your practice
And thank you all for listening in.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I really hope that this episode isthe start to future conversations

(01:07:38):
you have with your colleagues,teams, and communities.
We continue the exploration ofidentity this season with our
next episode, Anti Blackness.
Subscribe now to Farsight Chatswherever you get your podcasts.
And don't forget to followus on Instagram and Facebook.
LinkedIn at the Farsight Agency andcheck out our website, gofarsight.

(01:08:00):
com to know more aboutwho we are and what we do.
Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better and do different.